Table In The Back | Anthony Ruggiano | Part 3

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.640
So what happened. So there's a
bar on Jamaica are you'll call the Shamrock
2
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:07.480
Lounge. Right. So this kid, Frankie geest I was around us with
3
00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.880
my father. He was his father. His father, Frankie Geese was a
4
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.720
big shylock. He got a heart
attack and the kid inherited the book.
5
00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.280
But he was with us, the
kid and me and my brother were partners
6
00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:20.719
with him on the Shylock book.
So there's this bar on Jamaica area you'll
7
00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:23.600
call the Shamrock Lounge. He goes
in there one night to meet his girl
8
00:00:24.039 --> 00:00:26.399
and he has a beef with this
guy. The guy kept on it,
9
00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:30.039
nudget him and he has words with
the guy. He leaves. He goes
10
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:36.479
to Jojo Kaza's club, right,
and Bobby Glasses is there, and this
11
00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.840
guy Bobby Glasses and this other guy
m Ronnie to Jewe they used to call
12
00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.119
me. He wasn't Jewish, that
was just his nickname. They used to
13
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.200
call him Ronnie to jew They freed
him, get in the car drunk.
14
00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:51.840
They go back to the Shammock bar. They walk in and they blast the
15
00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.280
bartender and the owner. They clip
both of him. Who's in the bar
16
00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:59.840
drinking I can't believe you never heard
this. Pete got his His daughter Linda
17
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:04.239
is in the bar hanging out with
her friends. Right after they clip these
18
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:08.719
two guys, Bobby Glasses and Rinder. Did you go to the patio lounge
19
00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.719
on Rockaway Budolard. This kid,
Frank Geese comes to me. I'm in
20
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:17.760
this bar called the Polish Bar and
Ozone Park. He comes to me and
21
00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:22.560
he tells me, me and Bobby
Glasses are minded. You just clipped two
22
00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.920
people in a jamake rimney and just
got like blood on his sleeve. I
23
00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.359
go, and you fucking came here
after you did. He came right to
24
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:32.719
me. So he was nervous wreck. So we take him. We take
25
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:34.879
his car, We get rid of
his car, and I bring him to
26
00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:38.319
the Hilton. There was a Hilton
Hotel on by Kennedy Airport. We put
27
00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:42.560
him in the room in the Hilton
Hotel. The next day I call up
28
00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:47.599
the room. He's gone. He's
gone. Right now, Pete got his
29
00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:53.560
daughter. Linda, made a statement, gave them up Ronnie because she knew
30
00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.400
them all, gave their names,
gave a statement to the cops. Now
31
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.920
the cops know who they are.
Right now, they're up in arms John
32
00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:06.400
John John wasn't even I don't think
John was even a captain yet. I'm
33
00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:08.199
trying to think. I don't know
if they made him a captain yet.
34
00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.759
Well, anyway, they're up in
arms because now Linda, you know,
35
00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.280
gave them up, gave up these
people. Now then she retracted us them.
36
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.800
Anyway, they come to the post
bar, John Gotti, I mean,
37
00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:24.039
it was a terrible thing, John
Gotti, Johnny Knig, Jeanie Angelo.
38
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.120
They come to the Polish Bar and
my father's there with Tony Lee and
39
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.319
they're in the corner and they're talking
and my father calls me over and he
40
00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:35.520
goes, listen, Frankie Geese gotta
go because he instigated the whole thing.
41
00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.800
This kid, Frankie Geese, she
got he instigated. He said, Frankie
42
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:40.319
Geese gotta go. So I said, all right, he's gotta go.
43
00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:46.039
And so, to make a long
story short, so I said, how
44
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:47.120
are we going to do it?
So they said, well, we're gonna
45
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.319
make an appointment. We're going to
reach out to his family. We're gonna
46
00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.120
tell his family to tell him come
to meet you by the Linden with Dinah
47
00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:58.240
may no me to me me me, me, me, me, me,
48
00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.039
and by the Linden with Dinah,
and you're going to bring him around
49
00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.280
the back of the Linden with Dinah, and then Jeanie and Johnny they're going
50
00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.319
to take him from behind the Linden
with Diner. So I said, all
51
00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.479
right. So I'm waiting in front
of the Linda with Dina for him to
52
00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.159
come. A couple of days later
and a cadialogt pulls up and I look
53
00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:16.599
in it and it's a guy that
looks just like with his uncle. His
54
00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:21.159
uncle lived in the Bronx and his
uncle. Because Anthony, come here,
55
00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:23.280
I want to talk to you.
So I get in the cargo. Where's
56
00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:24.599
your nephew? He says to me, you think I'm gonna let you just
57
00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:29.080
kill my fucking nephew. I said, I don't know what you're talking about.
58
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:30.759
I just want to know who the
Charlotte customers are. We want to
59
00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:34.360
get our money. We don't know
who the customers are. I know.
60
00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.000
He ran away. He said,
how much just got on the street?
61
00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.120
So I said, we had like
twenty seven thousand in the street. I
62
00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.199
gave him a figure. He goes, I tell your father, I'm going
63
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:45.199
to send him the money because his
uncle was a knocking around guy from the
64
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.080
box. But tell him I'm going
to take care of my nephew and I
65
00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:51.800
never see the kid again. I
never see the kid again until years and
66
00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:59.680
years later he winds up getting pinched
in Florida. In the introim be true,
67
00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:04.159
Sarah, yea, they got all
the all the statements retracted from Linda.
68
00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:09.879
She she retracted a statement, and
all the evidence disappeared, conveniently disappeared
69
00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:13.560
out of police custody. I can't
believe that you never heard that story.
70
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:18.040
No, I really never had.
Yeah. And then Bobby Glasses years later,
71
00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:21.040
they and so they all want to
trial in the state, but they
72
00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:26.040
beat the case. Then Bobby Glass
has got indicted by the Fed. Should
73
00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:30.319
they never got indicted in that case? No, they did. Frankie Geese
74
00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:32.639
got pinched to Florida, but by
the time he got pitched there was no
75
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:38.600
more witnesses. But what happened was
when Bobby Glasses got pinched by the state
76
00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.079
or no woops, one of the
guys. The witnesses they lied because Ranny
77
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:50.160
went arm fixed all of it.
They threw the murder in on Bobby Glasses
78
00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:56.639
and the FEDS Bobby Glassers wind up
getting it dited years and years later by
79
00:04:56.680 --> 00:04:59.600
the Feds as part of a rico
and he wind up getting convicted for the
80
00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:02.839
two. Did they use her statement? No, not never used the state
81
00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:09.600
never How did they get pinched?
All the people came forward then and it
82
00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.839
went on and said they lied,
they were they were threatened by Roddy one
83
00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.720
because now Rodney one On got life, he's he's gone. And other people
84
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.519
came forward and changed their testimony and
they and then they had me. I
85
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:24.560
cooperated, so that had my my
testimony because I was in on the whole
86
00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:29.959
scheme. And and Bobby glass has
got convicted. But Linda originally gave them
87
00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:33.680
all up and everything disappeared, all
the evidence disappeared, and they made the
88
00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.519
move, got rid of everything.
But she read it. She read it.
89
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:42.879
Yeah, Gotti's daughter got his daughter, Linda Gotti. So it's crazy.
90
00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:48.040
Peter Gotti's daughter cooperated. She read
it. It's all documented, and
91
00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.720
it's documented, and uh, this
is incredible. I didn't know that.
92
00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.560
But it brings me to this,
which is another thing. Pigotti's just called
93
00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.639
everybody a rat and do all kinds
of things and a lot of guys.
94
00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.519
I mean, it's a label that
we get stuck with if you cooperate.
95
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.519
There's a lot of stories I've heard. I could talk about hundreds of stories
96
00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:13.439
that people cooperated. Now, I
always look at why did the guy cooperate
97
00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.519
it? This guy's a tough guy. Why did he There's always a story.
98
00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.000
So she didn't have any stories.
She just cooperated. She was in
99
00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.920
the bar at the time in prime
and she cooperated. So now and they
100
00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:30.600
called people names and whatever. Now, John Junr cooperated, shures God made
101
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.000
apples without a doubt, So you
were a great with that. I mean,
102
00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:48.199
he definitely co operated. I just
don't understand the conversations. And you
103
00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.519
know, I get a lot of
questions. I have a lot of people,
104
00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:55.079
and I get all kinds of questions, you betrayed John or this,
105
00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:59.000
or they some guys love John.
But a lot of people starting to understand
106
00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:04.600
exactly what happened with John. Now
people are understanding what happened with John Julian.
107
00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:10.720
There's no question that he cooperated.
And I love these stories that guys
108
00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:15.800
on these programs say, you know, I cooperated, but I cooperated,
109
00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:20.879
But I didn't really cooperate because bro, you know, that's like, uh,
110
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:26.120
you know, you didn't get to
go pregnant. You didn't stick your
111
00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.360
knack the way or that way.
You know what I mean, don't stop
112
00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:33.160
the bullshit. Cooperated and my mind, the guy didn't get convicted. It
113
00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.639
don't matter whether he got convicted or
not. And it don't even matter if
114
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:42.000
the guy got pinched when you were
talking with the fucking feds. Cooperating,
115
00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:47.519
cooperating, I mean now when I
talk with the Feds, Hey, good
116
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:54.199
morning. Uh you know what are
you sitting outside for? It was cold
117
00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.759
by the Frank. The agents were
always on my back. I come in
118
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.959
my secretary as it's fucking snowing.
It's right before Christmas. The Frank and
119
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.079
Maddie. They don't even know their
names. FRANKI Maddie outside sitting in the
120
00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.279
car, right before Christmas, cold
as a baskets, snowing. So I
121
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.959
said, these fuck are they don't
want to stop. They're always here.
122
00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:22.000
So I got it. We had
cookies and Ganola's in my office for other
123
00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:26.279
people. So I took some cookies, some gnolis, a couple of cups
124
00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:28.800
of coffee, and I put it
in a box and I now, I
125
00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.080
went out. I knocked on the
fucking window. They were in the car.
126
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.320
The guy opens up the window.
What is it, Sandy, I
127
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.960
said, just don't just ever go
home. It's fucking Christmas. Go to
128
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.000
fuck home. Stop, get off
my back a little bit. That's our
129
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.720
job. Yeah, I got cookies
and coffee for you. At least they
130
00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:48.360
keep walking. He said, no, we can't take that. It's not
131
00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.960
a fucking bribe. Yeah, cookies
and coffee. You could take the fucking
132
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.600
thing. Don't worry about it.
So I give them the fucking cookies and
133
00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:01.799
the thing. You know, but
uh, did that kind of talking a
134
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.200
joke and you could do whatever?
Of course, what's you say something about
135
00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:13.080
somebody? It's cooperating, you know, an undercover guy seete, I hate
136
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:18.279
CEI is worse than anything because he's
cooperating with the government. He's why it
137
00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.519
up. He's talking to his best
friend. He's talking to his friend.
138
00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.320
You know, we could make money
if we do this. Yeah, yeah,
139
00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:28.120
yeah. So you're sucking this guy
into a conversation. So he admits,
140
00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.399
oh yeah, maybe we could deal
drugs. You just buried him.
141
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:35.519
Yeah, Now he don't get buried
right away. They don't kick the door
142
00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.039
any come in, but they know
he's a drug dealer. So now when
143
00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:43.159
you leave, all of a sudden, now they don't pinch him, but
144
00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:48.480
they call the other agents and they
say, Joe Blow is a drug dealer.
145
00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.519
Stay on him now. So three
months from now, the guy gets
146
00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.279
pitched. He don't know what to
hit him or why. It was your
147
00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:01.240
conversation, Yeah, brought him,
brought you to the guy here. So
148
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.480
you're not a rat because you didn't
take the stand against him. But you
149
00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.720
buried him, of course. So
I mean, so that's what John Gotti
150
00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:13.519
Jr. Did. He met with
them, He talked with them. You
151
00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:18.000
know, there's another story when there's
a story about when I cooperated. There
152
00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:24.399
was a story about John made a
deal with Sammy John Gotti. I don't
153
00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:28.440
know if you heard this, the
son for a son, don't cooperate against
154
00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:35.600
my son, and I won't kill
your son. Sounds beautiful bullshit. Of
155
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.720
course I didn't make no deal with
him and make nothing. But here's why
156
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.759
he told me that John Gotti Jr. Went to a club one night with
157
00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:48.279
a bunch of his friends. They
hit on this broad, hit on this
158
00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:54.840
young girl. The guy it's his
girlfriend. He steps to the plate and
159
00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.279
he says, hey, wait a
minute, broy, this is my girlfriend.
160
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.200
They all leave her alone that he's
putting up. He's protecting his girl
161
00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:05.799
and himself, and they wind up
argue want him. They give him a
162
00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.480
beating, knock his ass on the
floor. He's not unconscioably, he's on
163
00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:15.919
the floor, beat up, fight
over right, No, not for John.
164
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.440
John Junior gets a fucking knife,
funds all the story. Yeah,
165
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.720
you know that story. I know. I'm gonna show story a bunch of
166
00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:28.559
times and kills them. Yeah,
and Ron Gotty knows I know this story
167
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.960
because John Gotti himself the next day
after he did that, tells me,
168
00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:39.039
my fucking son, this piece of
shit killed the fucking kid last night.
169
00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.000
He tells me the whole story about
the girl in the fight, the whole
170
00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.039
thing. So I said, what
are you gonna do? He says,
171
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.320
I gotta deal with the cops.
I think he was paying twenty five thousand,
172
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.879
and I'm gonna be able to squash
this. If you need my help
173
00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.840
in any way, let me know. I mean I might know cops over
174
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:01.240
there, and maybe I could help
in some way because I was always rigging
175
00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.919
cases and bribe. But people left
the right too, So I said,
176
00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.120
if you need he said, no, I got this all right. Good.
177
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.399
So John, in his mind,
when I cooperate, he knows I
178
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.279
know the whole story, and he
knows I could just bury the sun just
179
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:22.240
by saying it. So when I
cooperate, there's that thing, there's a
180
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:28.120
deal. Don't testify against my son
and I won't hurt your say. But
181
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.600
that didn't exist. It's bullshit.
I just never testified against his son.
182
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.519
When I was with the FEDS,
I said to the FEDS, I don't
183
00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.679
do you know the story about it? Yeah, we know, Then leave
184
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.120
me the fuck home. Bro.
I don't want to testify against his kid.
185
00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:45.799
It will look like I'm trying to
hurt his family. I don't want
186
00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:50.559
to. I'm out. And I
got like real serious with it with them.
187
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.840
They needed me in the main cases. So they just said okay,
188
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.960
okay. They just walked away.
So I never made no deals with them,
189
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.519
the deals with the FEDS. I
don't want to do that. Yeah,
190
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.840
he never takes the spots to listen
that night, and I know the
191
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:07.919
whole story. Intimately, I'm going
to tell you how that night that happened.
192
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.240
I'm in this part of Polish bar
I used to hang out in this
193
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.240
Polish National Hall was called the O
was a park. I don't want to
194
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:18.360
say her name, but a girl
was there that I know a very good
195
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.960
friend. The way she came to
the Polish bar scared to death and she
196
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.799
takes me on the sign and she
tells me, listen, I just was
197
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.600
in the bar on Jamaica Revenue and
I saw Junior stab a guy and I
198
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:33.200
told her just like this, I
said, don't ever ever tell that to
199
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:37.879
anybody ever again, because I figured
they killed. Don't ever say nothing to
200
00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.919
anybody ever again about that. That
night, they went to Tony Lee to
201
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:46.600
get Saro. Saryao, who was
with my father had all the connections with
202
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.519
the Queen's DA. With Santucci,
they had that big meeting in Autter Donna's
203
00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:54.240
restaurant with John when John was divorced
with the Queen's Day. Remember that meeting
204
00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.799
that with Santucci was front page news. They went to him and they rounded
205
00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.320
up all the cops to a junior
when he get pinched. Now, there
206
00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.440
was another kid in there that I
don't know if you know this, that
207
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.240
they thought was going to give Junior
up. One of the kids in his
208
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.639
name. I forget is I can't
think of his name. It's on it.
209
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:22.919
He accidentally hung himself, a committed
suicide, but it wasn't a suicide.
210
00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.200
I forget his name because when I
got when I cooperated, the FEDS
211
00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.639
were asking me about the whole sitch
if I knew about the situation that they
212
00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.720
know it wasn't a suicide. So
two people got killed over that, but
213
00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:37.279
I didn't know. But I I
knew about the stabbing, and I told
214
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.200
him about the stabbing, but they
never used me on his case. But
215
00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.879
he doesn't take responsible for anything he
went in there any profit. Listen,
216
00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:48.519
it doesn't matter. Forget it.
Let's make out an improfit. What he's
217
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:52.440
doing now, is that a rap
move? If he still, let's stay
218
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.000
with the let's stay with the with
the cooperator. Yeah, if you cooperated,
219
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.919
I cooperated, right, So you
cooperated your own witness, and you
220
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:05.679
telling them facts that you know about
it murder. I did the same thing,
221
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.960
but I didn't want to testify.
Now if they're not going to indict
222
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:16.279
him for that murder, but they
know he did not only through me,
223
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:22.840
but through you and through other things
and situations, girls and everybody else.
224
00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:28.919
Why didn't they indict him. That'll
tell you point blank that he was a
225
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.480
cooperator and got to pass for it. You'll never hear it, you'll never
226
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.919
know about it, but they'll never
indict him. That alone is evidence enough.
227
00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.679
See, it's not evidence in the
court, but fuck the court.
228
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.440
It's evidence in the street. In
the street, you ask any guys to
229
00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.080
him, go to a ghetto,
ask a black guy, go to a
230
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.039
Mexican and we ask a Mexican.
Any fucking body, they'll know that that
231
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:02.840
guy's twos this trial twos on him
mysterial too well. And then then why
232
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.600
wouldn't you indicted him another way?
How could you possibly say you're not to
233
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.200
cooperate? He this history, that
prob They didn't get pitched for it.
234
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.919
No, he didn't get pitched No, all right, So that'll tell you
235
00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.600
they didn't use nothing. Now,
when he got indicted on the last case
236
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.320
out of Florida, they didn't use
They the Florida the US Attorney of Florida
237
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.120
wanted to talk to me, and
the and the Gambino squad and queens wouldn't
238
00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:33.240
let them use me because they wanted
to use me against Bobby Glasses and they
239
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.559
wanted to use me on the LUTNSA
case with Vinnia Sarah. So they wouldn't
240
00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.799
let them use me for some reason, and I never They never talked to
241
00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:45.960
me. But the only the organized
crime, the Gambino squad of Queens.
242
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.039
Those are the only guys Jerry Conran
and them to talk to me about it.
243
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.519
They would never let the guy in
Florida speak to me for some reason.
244
00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.519
But listen, I cooperated. I
mean, that was the hardest decision
245
00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:59.039
I ever made. I'm sure it
was for you too. It took me
246
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:03.600
a year. I mean I still
struggle with it sometimes. I mean I
247
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.160
struggled with that comedy. I don't
struggle with it anymore, sometimes only because
248
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.119
I feel guilty. Sometimes I think
on my own man to Flying Fox,
249
00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.519
you know, I either tell a
story about fat Cat Nickels, a black
250
00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.240
guy. Yeah, I was in
Jamaica, Queens. Well, I was
251
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.119
with him. I did time with
him. Fat Cat Nichols killed his parole
252
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.359
officer. I know all about it. Gets pinched, gets a life sentence,
253
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.519
goes to prison, he's doing life. I was with him in prison,
254
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:41.680
stood up the other black guys who
was within his crew. They fuck
255
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.440
his wife. His wife and they're
beating up his mother, slapping the ship
256
00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:51.559
at her because they're taking the spots
and everything junk spots spot, so they're
257
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:56.720
stripping him dead. They get in
touch with him and they say, there's
258
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:03.359
a guy who cooperated in this building. There's a police car outside every day.
259
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:11.000
Two cops, young cops who were
protecting him by sitting there. One
260
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.400
of the cops goes for coffee and
donuts or whatever the fuck he's gonna eat
261
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.640
in the morning, comes back.
What we want to do. They're asking
262
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.400
fat Cat a mission because he's their
boss. We want to kill the cop
263
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:30.480
the one go in and kill the
guy who was cooperating. Fat Cat tells
264
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:38.000
them no, no, They don't
listen to the fat Cat. They do
265
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.400
what they want. They killed the
cop. The guy inside. Here's the
266
00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.839
shots. Goes out the back window, they go into front door. They
267
00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:49.880
can't even find the guy. He
don't get killed the cop. They kill
268
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:56.839
young guy rookie. I know his
brother is a fucking FBI agent. Opens
269
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:02.880
up a fucking massive FBI there.
You killed the cop and a FBI's brother.
270
00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:08.640
Massive fat Cat gets pinched for it, and it's facing a capital case.
271
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:15.519
Beath Brot. Yeah, he refused, So you give him all of
272
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:22.319
those things I just said, and
he cooperating, flipped, fuck you guys,
273
00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.559
told you no, and I'm not
gonna give my life for you no
274
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.160
more. Yeah, and did all
the right things. So do you call
275
00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.039
fat Cat a rash? So?
I mean I went to jail in seventy
276
00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:37.160
eight the first time. I went
to jail in seventy eight, and my
277
00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.000
father had a going away party for
me at the Raven Night, like I
278
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:41.920
was going off to college. They
had a big going away party from at
279
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.759
the Raven Night. I went to
jail at seventy eight, right when I
280
00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.519
was twenty three. I went to
jail again at ninety one. First policy,
281
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.799
it wasn't the thought in my mind. Then I went to jail again
282
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.359
in ninety six on a state case. And while I was away and indicted
283
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.759
by the FEDS with Nikki and Florida, and I I end up again ten
284
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.880
more years. I did eight years
and three months, and it still wasn't
285
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.480
the door on my mind. I
got out of jail in o four after
286
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.440
doing eight years and three months.
By that time, John Gotti was dead.
287
00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.519
My father died when I was in
jail. Tony Lee was dead.
288
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:18.880
You cooperated, which you know,
you were one of my favorite my idol
289
00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.200
was one of my favorite mob guys. When I was in jail in ninety
290
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.079
one and they told me you cooperated. I told Bobby the Jew, I
291
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:27.559
thought it was frank when he said
that, guys, because we used to
292
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.279
say called John that guy, and
we knew it was you. He said,
293
00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.000
with that guy's co defended flipped.
I went, who Frankie. I
294
00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:37.039
thought it was Frankie. Look,
he goes, no, Sammy, I
295
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:41.079
said, Sammy. I was shocked. It still wasn't the door in my
296
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.519
mind. But when I got out
on four a couple of months later,
297
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.000
I got pinched again. I'm only
home a few months and I get pinched
298
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.880
for the murder and in a rico
for my brother in law, and you
299
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.279
know, my whole train of thought
started changing because things were different. Like
300
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.400
I said, you cooperated. Joe
Massina cooperated. Another guy I was close
301
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.519
with. I knew him, Joe
Massina before he was even strained out.
302
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:06.720
Now he was the boss. He
cooperated that they knew everything, and I
303
00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.640
just it took me a year.
I mean it took me a year.
304
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.680
I would see me, I would
I would for some reason when I got
305
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:19.160
pinched after oh, for this agent
Jerry Conrad, he just he was good,
306
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:21.880
nice to me, like I don't
know. I had to use the
307
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:23.960
bathroom. The marshals wouldn't take me
out to the bathroom. And I told
308
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.599
the marshal lists and if you don't
take me out of this holding cell there
309
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.359
was no bowling, I'm gonna piss
on the floor. And he took me
310
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.839
out. He took me to the
bathroom. This agent, he brought me
311
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.079
a sandwich for some reason. He
just rubbed me the right way. And
312
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:40.720
he gave me his card. And
I never in my life ever kept any
313
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.079
of those cards. I would rip
them right up and throw them away because
314
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.279
I got them times before that.
I would rip him up, thrown away,
315
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.240
and I call up my attorney right
away, Joe, Joe Carrazo or
316
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.359
Ronnie whoever it was my attorney.
I say, the FEDG just came here,
317
00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.920
and I ripped up the card and
whatever. I put it on record
318
00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.319
right away that they saw me,
and I didn't talk to them. But
319
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.079
for some reason I held this guy's
card. I don't know why. And
320
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.960
I would pick up the phone and
I'd hang it up and I'd pick up
321
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.319
the phone and I hang it up. This went on for a year.
322
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:14.000
I don't know how many times I
picked up the phone to call the FEDS
323
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.759
and I hung it up. I
couldn't do it. Every time I picked
324
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.079
up the phone, I saw my
father's face, and I knew how he
325
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.519
would feel about it, and I
knew if and I knew if he was
326
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:26.400
alive, would break his heart because
he was That's who he was, you
327
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:32.039
know what I mean. And I
couldn't do it. Finally, like I
328
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:34.519
said, everybody was gone. Bosses
are cooperating, And I said, what
329
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.680
am I doing? What am I
crazy? What am I going to spend
330
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.079
the rest of my life in jail
for this? It just I didn't have
331
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.440
the same feeling about it. Right, it was over exactly, and I
332
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.720
still didn't make the call. I
gave a card the Jerry Commer, the
333
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:51.000
agent's card. I gave it to
my wife Valerie, and I said,
334
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.640
listen tomorrow, when you go to
work today, when you get to a
335
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.839
call this number and tell this guy
to come see me. And she went
336
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.039
to work, called them up,
and that afternoon him in another agent came
337
00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.160
to my house in call meck.
I and they asked me one question.
338
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.920
They asked me, did you just
kill your brother in law? That was
339
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.160
the first question they asked me,
and I said yeah. And then they
340
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:15.759
the next day they brought me money. They asked me, what did you
341
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:18.799
know? I couldn't pay my mortgage. I had no money. I had
342
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.480
nothing. The next day they brought
me I know, I think they brought
343
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.079
me like thirty five hundred and cash. And they brought me a list of
344
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.319
because I had to get an attorney, they brought me a list and you
345
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.400
know, not a lot of lawyers
are going to represent people that cooperated.
346
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:36.599
They gave me a list with ten
names on ten attorneys that would represent me
347
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:41.640
as a cooperator, you know.
And one of the lawyers was Michael Gold,
348
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.920
whose father was I don't know,
you're probably eugen who are years and
349
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.000
years before that, and dited my
father on the Gold Bug with Pauli Vario
350
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.799
and all of them. They had
a bug and a trailer and they had
351
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.440
died it like thirty forty guys.
And I recognized the name. I said,
352
00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.000
Oh, I said, is he
related to Eugene Gold. They said,
353
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:03.240
yeah, it's his son. So
I wind up hiring him in charged
354
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.319
me twenty five thousand, but I
didn't even have that. So but when
355
00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:11.039
I sold my townhouse, the Feds
put the money in escarol and I paid
356
00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.519
him out of that. So it
was a process before I made that decision.
357
00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.680
All right, of course it is, of course it is. Listen,
358
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:22.759
it's not the it's you know,
people can make a statement one,
359
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.000
two three. I mean, I
know wouldn't go any gangs to go through.
360
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.720
I went through it myself when I
flipped. When I walked away from
361
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.279
the mob and I walked away from
John, I said to myself, fucking
362
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.480
I'm done with this thing. But
I also said to myself, I know
363
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.240
I'll probably be dead in less than
a year. I just didn't give a
364
00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:49.799
fuck about life, about nothing.
So you're going away in a place that
365
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.720
is just a disaster. If anybody
who is a tough guy and then in
366
00:24:55.799 --> 00:25:00.160
the real life and understands this,
that's why I would always adm when a
367
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:06.240
tough guy co operates, what happened, what's his story. That's why I
368
00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.160
asked you this story. I mean, because I know it's a tough story
369
00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.839
where people go through like, look
how many times you're arrested and you stood,
370
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.680
and who stood? I did fourteen
years, I know, and not
371
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:21.359
only that, it's not even fourteen. I did eighteen on my last one,
372
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:27.759
seventeen years seven months. It's it's
the pressure of constant and the pressure
373
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:33.839
of what's going on on the outside, whether it's family pressures, whether it's
374
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:38.240
street pressures. You're watching I was
in on the bors at a very for
375
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:42.359
one at that. You're watching me
go with that route. You're watching Joe
376
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:48.400
Massina doing that. See those kind
of ratspe you know, with a confidential
377
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.559
informant, if you're gonna flip flip, say the true, take the consequences
378
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:57.599
if it happens, but none of
this confidential bullshit. You're conning your friend.
379
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.279
The guy's taking you in his house
with his wife and kids, and
380
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:06.039
they're fucking listening to all these conversations. I want to throw up when I
381
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.559
hear that. You know, I
was doing time with a guy who flipped.
382
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.640
The guy came in, he was
crying, and I went, it
383
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:19.119
was I was in MCC and I
had said what happened, and he says,
384
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:26.200
I got sentenced. I heard thirty
and I said, oh my god,
385
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:33.160
they give you thirty years. And
he's crying no, no, He
386
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:38.200
says, thirty months, thirty months
to that. I get him a crack
387
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.920
in his fucking face. Then I
told why would you cooperate? You only
388
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.400
face in thirty months forty months?
Where the fuck you just got? He
389
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.680
said he wanted to go into promo
because he wanted to leave his wife go
390
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:55.039
with his girlfriend. In the witness
protection they said, divorce cart walked away
391
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.200
from your wife and go with your
girlfriend. You're gonna ride on your friends
392
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:02.160
just to go with your go Oh
my god. So you hear some cases
393
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.799
like that's a wreck. Yeah,
I agree, that's a loyal and people
394
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.000
out there now will take the money. They I mean, they wanted me
395
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:10.720
to wear a wire. I said
no. And the reason why I said
396
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.759
no, I said no, I'm
not gonna wear because now I'm out on
397
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:17.440
bail. So when I decided to
cooperate, I profit they met me.
398
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.559
So they came by my house that
day they and the next day they came
399
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:25.240
back with the money and the list. Once I returned Michael Gold, now
400
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:27.799
I met them in the world or
for Storia. They had a suite,
401
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.400
the fence and the US attorneys.
So now I meet them in the world
402
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.119
of for story with now Michael Gold
and they're there's twenty aged twenty and the
403
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.480
bombardom of questions. You know about
this murder, you know about that murder.
404
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.079
You know about that Charlie Kinigia killed
my friend Mikey. They asked me
405
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:47.440
right him. They asked me about
Bobby Glasses with the Shamrock murder. They
406
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:49.160
asked me about cops. You know, I think about cops are on the
407
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.319
tape. They're asking me that,
but you know how it is that about
408
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.799
bottomy or questions. And then now
I'm out on bail and I'm it's still
409
00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.880
nobody knows yet. I'm just meeting
with them. Nobody knows. God,
410
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.359
I'm cooperating and I'm still home.
They asked me if they wanted me to
411
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.039
wear a wire and I said,
I'm not wearing a wire because then other
412
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.480
people friends of mine are going to
get entrapped here and I'm not you know,
413
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.240
that's not who I'm That's not who
I'm gonna hurt. If I hurt
414
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:17.440
anybody, it's not going to be
them. And then and then they backed
415
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.200
off with the wire bullshit. But
they followed me around for about three weeks
416
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:25.599
like I had cold defended meetings with
Skinny Dom because he was my col defended
417
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.799
Skinny Dom and and uh, and
they folowed me to the lawyer's office and
418
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:34.079
they took pictures Ronnie one Arm's son. They made him a skipper alfonse that
419
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.200
he was there, and they took
pictures of me with him. And they
420
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:41.319
just surveiled me for a couple of
weeks. And then I went into court
421
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.079
and I signed up the cooperation agreement
and I pleaded guilty to the murder and
422
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.400
they took the bracelet off me I
had. I was on the home confinement
423
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.720
and then they put me in a
safe house in New Jersey. And then,
424
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.480
you know, then I started.
Then it started from there. But
425
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:57.680
uh, even today, you know
today's I mean, I asked you this.
426
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:03.359
You know, it still bothers me
sometimes because I mean, I would
427
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:06.079
like to believe, not that I
would like to have I believed that if
428
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.000
my father was alive, I don't. I wouldn't have cooperated because then I
429
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.160
would have had to gave him up, and I would have never done that.
430
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:12.960
Nobody loved me like that. He
loved me more than my mother,
431
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:15.839
to be honest with you, Nobody
loved me like that man, and I
432
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:18.160
would have could have never gave him
up. So I know, if he
433
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:22.319
was alive, I would have never
went that route. But sometimes in my
434
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:25.720
weird mind, I think, you
know, like if I die, I'm
435
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:26.720
afraid to meet him. He might
be mad at me, you know what
436
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.759
I mean? Like sometimes I get
these weird thoughts that you know, he's
437
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.799
mad at me. But uh,
you know, I knew what I needed
438
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.359
to do. In a lot of
cases, that's not even true. When
439
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:42.119
I cooperated, I thought the same
thing about Toddle. Yeah, I loved
440
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:47.039
the man tilto of course, I
loved everything about it. And when I
441
00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:49.599
cooperated, I thought about him,
and they said he put me up.
442
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:55.200
He must be going through agony.
He's a real man's man. He goes
443
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.559
on usher to the court right like
we said before it took out. Rather,
444
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:02.960
it's an amazing thing too. I
said, he must be sick about
445
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.839
this. Now, he might have
been sick. But I found out your
446
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:11.000
people on the street who was I'm
still friendly with and all over the place.
447
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.400
He never said one bad word about
me, And he said John fucked
448
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:21.519
up. He betrayed him. He
broke goes an usher and he broke this
449
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:26.839
guy and uh that was his answer
to the whole thing about me cooperating.
450
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:32.720
You know, when I was with
him, I was pinched on my gumba,
451
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.559
the alley boy, on a double
murder. They offered us everything under
452
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:40.519
the sun. I never co operated. Fifty two quarter appearances, two three
453
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:45.279
different trials before we wound up beating
the case. And uh so I never
454
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.039
I never imagined to do that easier
because I always thought, either I'm going
455
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.000
to die in the street or I'm
going to go to prison. That's the
456
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.119
reality. If you're a real man, you're going to know sometimes you're doing
457
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.240
the killer. Sometimes I want to
get killed, of course, sooner or
458
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.720
later. That reality. You know, if you understand that, you can
459
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.079
walk around with your dressed out guys
who wait for real they're always they're like
460
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:14.559
little weasels. They're always scared.
They're always worried. I mean, and
461
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.920
those are the guys who are real
betrayers because they always carry a secret.
462
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.119
I lied to him, I fucked
him. Yeah, I held back,
463
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.960
Bunny. So you're always scared in
your own mind. I wonder if they
464
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.880
find out. And plus there's always
the guy that knows they're going to cooperate.
465
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.279
And does what they do, knowing
what they're going. He's got a
466
00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:37.319
license. Just guys out there now
that cooperated, that didn't even get pinched.
467
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.119
They just thought they were going to
get pinched, or they thought they
468
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:41.400
were going to get killed. Yeah, and they went to the FBI.
469
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.079
Sonny's son Michael, Yeah, Michael, the other one, oh jed,
470
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:51.440
Yeah, he wired up on his
fought father got out of ninety five years
471
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:55.319
old, got out, he wired
up on him right, drove him around
472
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:56.240
to meet there. I know,
I know the kid. I had to
473
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.599
put him back in prison. Yeah, oh my god, I went.
474
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:02.519
I used to go visit. My
father was in Allen with Sonny, and
475
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.799
I used to go visit them together
with him. What about this guy Johnny
476
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.599
Panissi, he never even got arrested. He's he cooperated. He thought they
477
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:14.759
were going to kill him. He
cooperated. You know, I don't know.
478
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.599
I mean, there's so many different
cases, but co operate. Sho
479
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.039
listen, who has another story?
I talked about fat Cat Nicholas. I
480
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.519
talked about people I did time with. Fact guy like Cat Nichols. I
481
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.319
mean, he was a man's many
after he cooperated, he had a label.
482
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:35.920
They sent them to Clinton because he
got busted again. He walked around
483
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.880
Clinton, Yeah, like the man. Nobody bothered it, nobody funked with
484
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:42.119
him. He was like a king
over there. Yeah, they were afraid
485
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:44.200
of him. Yeah, listen,
I did what I did. I live
486
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:45.759
with it. I got to live
with it. You know what, and
487
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.039
you know what, And the bottom
line is, I'm content today. You
488
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.240
know what. I was never content
in that life. I mean I was.
489
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:54.880
It was always about the next score, the next dish was always never
490
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:59.640
nothing was never enough. I never
had enough money. I never had enough
491
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.400
girl friends I never had I never
had enough of anything. He's always the
492
00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:06.160
next one, the next one,
in the next one. And I have
493
00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:09.519
that same problem. I can't get
enough girl. I can't get it.
494
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:13.519
But you answer your question, specially, do you miss being the underboss?
495
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.519
You got to miss it a little
bits, al much hours. I know
496
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.119
what you have better than anybody sitting
in there, and I had to.
497
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:23.759
Most people in the street don't even
know how much power I had. I
498
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:27.799
know how much power you because it
was not only because of the killing.
499
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:32.160
It was constructure, making money,
unions, all kinds, and I was
500
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:37.079
pretty good at it. It's I
love the life and I loved a lot
501
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:39.319
of the people in the life.
I don't. I didn't love them all,
502
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:42.640
but I loved a lot of people
in my lives. I missed them.
503
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.720
I missed that part of it.
New York. People ask me if
504
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:51.680
I can't care less about New York, especially the way it is now,
505
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:57.039
because my family and my friends,
and say, Sammy, if you ever
506
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:00.440
came back to New York today,
you would throw up. It's not no
507
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.799
way near to say. No.
Tali's now they bought it, and I'm
508
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:08.920
not got nothing wrong with Chinese,
but it's a Chinese restaurant, so nothing's
509
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:13.159
the same. I don't, I
don't. I don't remember what they changed
510
00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:15.960
John's Club back. It's all it's
all Guyanese now, yeah, all Guyanese.
511
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:20.920
And oz All Park it's all gone. It's all nail salons, even
512
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.320
the one on more Berry. I
was there. It's a shoe store.
513
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.519
Shoe store. Yeah, I was
there. I was at the Raven and
514
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:28.000
I did some filming there. I
went there. I was there a couple
515
00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:31.480
of months ago. It's a store. Now. That's the building Jordan and
516
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:36.400
on the building next door. You
know a bunch of those buildings. But
517
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.199
now you know, I'm listening,
and then now I go into the program,
518
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:44.239
and I I was uncomfortable. You
know, I'm living in Michigan,
519
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.119
I'm living in Idaho. What the
fuck am I doing in Ido? What
520
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:49.760
I told the guy when they were
sending me to Idoho? What do I
521
00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:52.880
know about potatoes? They grow potatoes
there now? And when I listen,
522
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:57.519
when I went out, I gave
them a little time, and yeah,
523
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.559
I changed. They changed the name, right, Jimmy Moran. Now it's
524
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:05.960
an Irish name. Now, at
least I kept it a time. I
525
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:07.599
know, I went with an Irish
name. I'll tell you why I was
526
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:13.039
doing time with this guy, Junior
Moran. He was the guy in Philadelphia,
527
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.039
was in the war. He was
the flower killer, wore flowers to
528
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:20.760
the guy's house during Christmas, and
it was his gun and that thing.
529
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.639
Now, and I did time with
him. He was a crazy bastard.
530
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:27.239
He got life without parole, so
I figured, and he was the name
531
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:31.880
I didn't get, Jimmy morn right. So when I got to Arizona with
532
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:37.920
that bullshit name, I said,
let me get a place where I'm comfortable.
533
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.000
So I drove all the way out
to Payson, all the way to
534
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:45.639
fuck out in the desert. And
they had these little mini farms five acre,
535
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:49.000
six acre. You could buy a
mini farm. I had a farm
536
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:52.719
once. I said, this is
a great get a mini farm. I
537
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:54.800
build a barn. I build a
little house there. I could maybe just
538
00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:00.480
hang and be comfortable. A guy
in a tractor when I get out of
539
00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:02.840
the car, pulls up on the
other side of the road. He said,
540
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:07.400
man, So I look at him. He says, you're looking to
541
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.760
buy him many farm. I said, yeah, consider me. What's your
542
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:17.920
name? I said, Jimmy,
and he says his name, He said,
543
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:22.840
no, not just Jimmy. You
see where I introduced myself first,
544
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:30.119
and then I said, what's your
last name? No an Irish? He
545
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:32.079
said, yeah, yeah, he
says, good old Irish boy. Good
546
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:38.320
thing. We don't get none of
those gideash mother. I would like to
547
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:40.480
tell her. Listen, I'm gonna
tire you. I'm saving the bull.
548
00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:45.039
I'm gonna be your You don't like
me everywhere I went. You know,
549
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.039
the accent there was like I was
like a fish out of wood. The
550
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.599
first words out of your mouth were
are you in the Witness protection par I'm
551
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.199
living in idle People ask me you
saw, you're not in the witness protection
552
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:58.239
program. No. The only thing
is the girls loved the accent, but
553
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.719
I still was uncomfortable, and and
I went back to Michigan and I signed
554
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:06.280
out. I signed out, and
I went back to Michigan. And because
555
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.800
my daughter was at Michigan State University, she's a college graduate, thankgard.
556
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:13.480
You know, it's so funny because
not when she was little and I got
557
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.840
pinched, they were in my house. They had a searcher on for my
558
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:20.280
house in ninety five when they pinched
me in ninety five, they raided my
559
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.400
house. And she's a little she's
only two, and she's in diapers and
560
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.679
they're in my house. I mean, this is how we lived. I
561
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:28.760
mean, you think about her.
And I'm sitting on my couch, handcuffed,
562
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.440
yeah, and my daughter's in diapers
and they're ripping my and they're searching
563
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:35.800
my mouse, and my daughter's going, Daddy, it's your friends, Daddy,
564
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.440
and these your friends. You know. It was so anyway, she's
565
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.440
in college, I'm living in Michigan, and I get a call from a
566
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.559
friend of mine who was in the
treatment set the business. Right, So
567
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.159
I'm sixty at the time, so
He calls me up and he says,
568
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.239
to me, listen, I just
spoke to the owner of the treatment set
569
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:53.960
that I worked for, and I
told him because he knew he knew where
570
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.800
I was. He was very very
close to me, so he knew the
571
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:00.719
whole deal. He said, I
told the your story, and we think
572
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.159
you could be a good counselor because
of your life experience and you're in recovery.
573
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:07.199
You're clean a lot of years,
you know. We you know,
574
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.519
these young gang bangers and everything.
Maybe you could help them. You know,
575
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:13.559
you did a lot of time.
You knew a lot of you know,
576
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:15.400
Sammy the Bull, you knew John
Gotty. Your father was a wise
577
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.559
guy. They like that the kids, you know. So he says,
578
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:21.599
but you got to go to school. I said, come on, man,
579
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:22.599
I'm six years old. I got
to go back to school. He
580
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.079
goes, listen, he goes,
just come down here. He goes,
581
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:29.199
We'll pay for the school and come
down here. And you know what,
582
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:31.440
I sat back and I said,
you know what, it's time, you
583
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.440
know. And I so I called
up the air because I was still with
584
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:37.440
the FBI. They were still giving
me a siphen and everything. Because I
585
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:43.320
was still testifying, and I called
up the FBI and I said, listen,
586
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.480
I'm leaving. I'm going to Florida. I said, I got to
587
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:49.119
offer for a job. They really
don't want me to go. I said,
588
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:51.920
listen, I'm going because listen,
when this is over and you just
589
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:54.320
kick me to the curb, who's
going to pay my rent? I said,
590
00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:57.599
no, who's going to What do
I do? Then? So I
591
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:00.400
packed up. I got my cat, Nike to the cat, Me and
592
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:02.199
Mikey guy in the car, drove
to Florida, and I went back to
593
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:07.039
school and I became a counselor in
the treatment center. Listen, you know,
594
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.840
like you're talking about stories like,
yeah, when I came to Arizona,
595
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.559
when I got out of prison this
last time. Yeah, in twenty
596
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:20.920
seventeen, I went to Target and
I was going to buy sneakers. So
597
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:25.719
there's a leather couch and I'm sitting
on the leather couch and I'm getting sleekers
598
00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:30.840
and trying them on. There's older
woman. She comes up next to me
599
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:34.280
and she says, you might if
you move over, if I can sit
600
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.119
on this couch. She had boots
in her so I said, no,
601
00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.400
I moved oven. She had boots
and she's putting the boots on it.
602
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:44.599
She's talking to me, and I'm
talking to She says, you have a
603
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:49.280
New York accent. I said,
yeah, yeah, I do. Where'd
604
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:53.320
you come from Brooklyn? She says, I came here years ago. I
605
00:39:53.400 --> 00:40:00.320
was in New York in the Gotti
era. So she says, know who
606
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:04.599
he is? I said, uh
no, not really. I said,
607
00:40:04.599 --> 00:40:06.960
I think I heard his name gott
It. What you say his name was
608
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.679
Gotty? So I said, no, maybe I don't know. And so
609
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.079
she takes her phone. I didn't
even know what these folds were. She
610
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:19.360
takes her phone and she goes on
the thing and she strolls a little bit
611
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:25.000
and she shows me and there's John
Gotti him. I says, he looks
612
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:28.880
for me, but I really don't
know. I take I don't know.
613
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.480
He comes from New York too.
Yeah, yeah, from Brooklyn. Oh
614
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:36.280
yeah, no, I don't really
know. And she goes like this,
615
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:40.760
She flips it. The next page
is me. She looks at me,
616
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:45.280
and she looks at the picture.
It looks at me and says, are
617
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:49.679
you shipping the bull? I said, yes, I am. She says,
618
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.519
oh my god, my husband's not
going to believe this, she says.
619
00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:58.559
She calls him up on the phone
while was sitting there, and she
620
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:02.960
says, you'll never against who I'm
sitting next to. Any must they asked
621
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.159
her? She says, no,
it's Samy to boy. I mean it.
622
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:08.559
She says, could you mean next
to me? So I could see
623
00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:13.000
your face? So like me,
I'm not a joke. So I lead
624
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:16.480
over the public stupid face in the
picture, and I hear a month before,
625
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:22.159
Oh my god, get the fuck
home right away. He got a
626
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.679
little matter of this. Didn't you
get outed by a news reporter in Arizona?
627
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.679
Yes, right, I heard that
story before the second one. Right,
628
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:31.239
you got Yeah, before the second
case, you got outed by a
629
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:36.519
news reporter. I had a pool
company. Yeah, it's a construction company.
630
00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:39.519
My wife came to me. We
had a restaurant, Uncle Sal's the
631
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:45.639
Talian restaurant. And my wife said, there's a news media came down and
632
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:49.440
they want to do an interview with
you. And I told him though he's
633
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.960
not doing any interviews, and I
don't know where he is. So she
634
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.880
says, he like threpned me to
say I'm going to do an article.
635
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.960
We know he's here. We notices
his restaurant with you. We're going to
636
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.519
put the restaurant in where you live. Everybody, So if he does something,
637
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:09.679
maybe you could avoid some of that. I said, he told you
638
00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:14.880
that he was like threatening you.
Yeah, yeah, I said, all
639
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.880
right, all right, let me
think about it. While I'm telling them,
640
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.360
let me think about it. She
says, Oh my god, he
641
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:23.599
just pulled up right in front of
my office out of construct with a yard
642
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:29.679
and everything, heavy equipment. So
I look, is that him? Yeah?
643
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:31.920
All right, go out the back
door, Ken your cabbs in the
644
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:37.199
parking. I go to back way
and I'll talk to him. What are
645
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:40.599
you gonna do? No, I'll
talk to him. I let him in.
646
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.119
My secretary lets her bit, and
I'm talking to him, and I
647
00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:47.239
said, what the fuck do you
want? Bro? You want to meet
648
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:51.280
down? You're threatening my wife the
join I'm not threatening people. I would
649
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.440
put an article out if I just
told you that. If I if you
650
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:58.280
would help me a little bit,
give me an interview with something, I
651
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.239
won't put all that information in.
I might. I'll talk to you a
652
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:06.920
little bit. What do you want
to know? What do you want now?
653
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.400
Little things about the program, about
this, about that, and you
654
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:12.719
give me some pictures. No,
I don't want to give you pictures.
655
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.800
I'm running around now. I don't
want to give you pictures. He says,
656
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:22.320
you got your pictures on the book. We're not. Here's what kind
657
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:28.159
of picture i'll give you. I'll
stand by the window the sun of beyond
658
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.880
me. You could take it from
the back. Take a silhouette. You
659
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:37.000
want to take a silhouette, I'll
give you that. He said, okay,
660
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.599
So he took pictures of me silhouette. I gave him a little bit
661
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:44.480
of an interview. I got in
touch with the agents. I got in
662
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:47.840
touch with everybody, try to get
the fuck off my back. They wouldn't
663
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.559
budge. So I gave him the
interview, a little bit of an interview,
664
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:57.079
and then they changed everything because he
asked me a question in the interview.
665
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.320
He says, you know that joy
and got it? He has a
666
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:02.239
contract guard you. I said,
I don't know about none of that ship.
667
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:07.320
I said, I don't know,
but what about it? He said,
668
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.199
well, what are you gonna do
if he sends people down here?
669
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.360
So I said, don't you think
that's a stupid question? What are you
670
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.760
gonna do? What am I going
to do? Protect yourself. I'm gonna
671
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.800
protect myself. I'm gonna do whatever
I gotta do. What do you think
672
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.960
will happen people who are going to
be in body bags, either me or
673
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.480
them? Does that make you happy? I mean, it's a stupid question.
674
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:35.880
I don't know how to answer that
question. Answer. He puts it
675
00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:39.519
in the newspaper. He says,
Sammy the bullet threatening all thesters in New
676
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:44.159
York come down and kill me.
You punked that. I didn't use the
677
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.239
way. I didn't say a word. It's gotta sell papers. Yeah,
678
00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:51.639
yeah, he really got before hugging
them came down. That was before,
679
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.840
right, that was before hunking them
came down. After the article. Yeah,
680
00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.000
after the article. You know,
it's the best they they found me.
681
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:07.519
They were all over me. Huck
wanted Sally to do the hit because
682
00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:12.360
I didn't know Sally. So Sally
was a little nervous and said, well
683
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.800
we go together. So he said, I'm not going to go there.
684
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:17.840
He knows me as soon as he
sees me. I'm telling you he's carrying
685
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:22.679
how could you miss hunk? Look
at his name, his name, he
686
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:27.639
says, I'll tell you he's carrying
a gun, and he's gonna not run.
687
00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:30.199
He's going to shoot it out.
He's he's gonna try to kill us,
688
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:32.800
and he's good at it. Bro, I'm not going near him.
689
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.679
So what he told that he's scared
Sally. So Sally didn't want to come
690
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.199
near me either. Now they got
me, then they make the move.
691
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:45.920
Then him trying to make a bomb, a thing that spins around and shoots
692
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:51.679
shotgun shows and they're fucking around with
this for months and months and months until
693
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.960
I got pinched in Arizona and then
they got pinched in New York and thence
694
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:59.639
Sally, they got pinched for that. Yeah, but Sally, while they're
695
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:05.320
working on this hit, Sally gets
invited for drugs and he cooperates. Hunk
696
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.840
and Pete don't know. Yeah,
he says, I'm onny hit right now.
697
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:13.000
Yeah, he ain't done yet,
some money hit. But you know
698
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:15.599
what, and I think about it
all that. I mean, you know,
699
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:17.960
like I said earlier, I'm content
today, you know. And I
700
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:21.320
you know, we lived even I
mean I was never on your skip,
701
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.679
but we lived big lives, even
though I lived a big life being Andy's
702
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:28.199
son. I mean, when I
was a kid out partying money, tons
703
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:31.880
of money, celebrities, you know, cod blanched, front row seats,
704
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:36.119
never waited online, all that stuff, and then you know, it was
705
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:37.159
great, and then it wasn't.
You know, then it wasn't. You
706
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:40.079
know, it's like drugs. They
were all fun and games for me at
707
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.480
one time, and then they weren't, you know what I mean, And
708
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:45.039
then I had to stop. And
that's how I that's how I looked at
709
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.800
that life. It was. It
was sort of like I hit. It
710
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:52.280
was all fun and games and you
know, it was all great and then
711
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:53.519
it wasn't. But along the way, you know, I heard a lot
712
00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:55.159
of people, you know, just
like you did. You know, I
713
00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.920
made people's mothers cry. I mean, we clipped my sister's husband. You
714
00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:02.920
know, to this day, my
sister still is fucked up over it.
715
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:07.440
But you know what, at the
time, he did something wrong, you
716
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.400
know, And like sometimes I think
about myself like I'm sure you too,
717
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:15.440
you know, like sometimes I have
no empathy, like I don't give a
718
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.440
fuck, Like it's I don't know, maybe I was raised that way.
719
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:22.559
It was implanted in my brain.
Like sometimes I want to feel remorse about
720
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.320
things I did, and I just
can't. Do you experience, do you
721
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:31.320
experience that whatever a doubt. We're
almost like we're in the military. We're
722
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:37.920
told to do certain things. You
will never alloid the male and I whatever.
723
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:40.719
And my father wasn't either, Yeah
right, but he does. He's
724
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:45.679
got nothing's in the machine. Yeah
we had, you know, but when
725
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:49.719
we were told to do something,
we had to do it. We did
726
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.239
it. It's part of the life. Yeah, it's not. I thank
727
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:58.199
god I've never went out and killed
an innocent man, a woman or right.
728
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.239
That would have really fucked me up, but I did so it was
729
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:06.519
within the life. If you broke
the rules and the boss came to me
730
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.239
said me, he's got to go, he went, I had to do
731
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:15.320
it. Exactly what are you gonna
do a stranger? That's who does it
732
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:17.760
in the mab. So I don't
I don't feel that I feel the same
733
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:22.800
way as you. I mean,
of course some of them I feel bad,
734
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:27.800
but some of them I feel And
people criticize me every time I say
735
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.599
this. But if I looked at
you in the box, I said,
736
00:48:30.599 --> 00:48:35.880
bro, you broke the fucking rules
and look what you did. You hurt
737
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.119
me. You knew I would be
the guy who wind up killing you.
738
00:48:38.760 --> 00:48:43.199
Couldn't not You didn't have to break
the rules exactly, so you fucked yourself
739
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.280
up. Look behind me, those
people cried. You fucked them up,
740
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:49.840
and you fucked me up. I
really don't want to I didn't want to
741
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:52.480
be the guy I like. Put
you in that position, put me in
742
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:55.880
that position. And now I'm not
if you break the rules, I'm not
743
00:48:55.960 --> 00:49:00.079
dying with you. Yeah, I
don't break the I do what I gotta
744
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:02.400
do and whatever. That's what my
omis to tell me. He goes,
745
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:07.360
Listen, whoever, whoever he clipped, or whoever got clipped, deserve to
746
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:08.719
get clipped. And he told me. He used to tell me this all
747
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:12.480
the time too. He used to
sit me down and tell me, listen,
748
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.960
I'm telling you right now, God
forbid I ever disappear or they find
749
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.519
me in the street. Just forget
about it, he used to tell me.
750
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:22.800
He goes, because you can't.
You might be able to clip one
751
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:24.599
or two people, but you can't
fight an army, he used to tell
752
00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:28.840
me. Just as hard as that's
gonna be, he said, just forget
753
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.360
about it. He used to tell
me all the time. And remember Patty
754
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.960
Mac, Yeah, sure, remember
they clipped Patty Mac. And then a
755
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.280
month later they clipped his son because
the son was going around talking about how
756
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.599
he was gonna get either. And
then they walked in the bar and they
757
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:46.159
shot Patty Mac's son in the head. That the Genovesi's he was a captain
758
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:52.000
with them, Patty Mac. And
here's how I tell my family till today.
759
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:55.360
I said, listen, if somebody
comes down in the mouth he kills
760
00:49:55.400 --> 00:50:00.480
me, don't be mad at him. He was given an over there,
761
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:06.800
he had to do it, and
I broke the rule. So just say
762
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:10.280
my father knew the rules, he
broke a rule, he lived by the
763
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:14.719
sort, he died by the sword. There it's over. I'm not mad
764
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:19.440
at anybody. Mind your fucking business, and I don't think we have to
765
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.639
worry about that anymore today Now guys
out there and busting grapes, no more.
766
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.239
No, just what's going on out
there? Yeah, that's what the
767
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:28.320
people tell me. Are you worried? I'm not worried. I mean,
768
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:30.760
am I going to go in my
neighborhood and walk around. I'm not gonna
769
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.639
just put it in their face.
But I'm not worried. I'm not worried.
770
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:37.800
I mean, first of all,
I don't think anybody's out there any
771
00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.280
more. Guys like you are gone. There's no more Samby the Bulls out
772
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:44.320
there. There's no more John Gotti's, there's no more fighting and these they're
773
00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:47.360
not out there, no more tados. They're gone, They're gone. I
774
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:51.119
mean, there's the guys out there
that are killers. Yeah. John Conniggli
775
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:53.920
is a killer, Jeanie. The
guys around Yeah, guys around you that
776
00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:57.400
are still out there are killers.
But they're not going to do nothing.
777
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:00.599
No, they're done. They're done. First of all, there's so much
778
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:05.679
kind of confidential important these phones.
Everybody's gonna about camera, camera, what
779
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:07.280
about this? The other day,
I was talking to my daughter about ben
780
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:10.639
Hush. He shows me, what's
the first movie I want to see?
781
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.840
I said. When I was a
kid, my father took me to see
782
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:17.960
Ben Hull with Charle Heston. Fifteen
minutes later on my phone, and there's
783
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:22.960
all things of ben Hull popping up
on my YouTube. The phone listens to
784
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:27.480
you, there's all things about Bena. So who's going to do one every
785
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:31.000
time you, like, you do
a search or you do something, yeah,
786
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:36.000
you'll see like if you do a
search for a diying pill. Yeah,
787
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:39.079
right, all of a sudden,
you'll get fifteen thousand commercials about he
788
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.719
d up? How are you shooting
about the cabbage? This camera's all over
789
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:45.639
every book? Or what's his name? That got clipped in Staten Island?
790
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:51.079
What's his name? The the why
the boss? The gambino got he got
791
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.679
cleared. They caught the guy on
the what a phone? A camera in
792
00:51:54.760 --> 00:52:00.480
the bell? Look the football player
I forgot his name there, football player?
793
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:06.039
Oh on the forty I know Tanez
and many kills himself. He had
794
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:10.559
a phone. Yeah, they know
where the guy was and they follow his
795
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:15.880
fae was there there. It's it's
crazy, but I'm just glad I don't
796
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:17.800
have to live though. I don't
have to worry. But like the last
797
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:21.440
time I got pinched home five in
the morning, the bell rang, you
798
00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:22.599
know who it is. I don't
have to live that way. You know.
799
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:25.719
I sit on my couch today.
I go to work every day working
800
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:29.840
the detox. You know, I
mean the fetanyl today is killing all.
801
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:31.440
I just found the kid. I
just found the kid. The other day
802
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:35.840
I work. I work in the
detox, so every thirty minutes I gotta
803
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:38.679
go do rounds to make sure nobody's
having seizures and all that because I'm a
804
00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:44.480
clinical technician in the detox. The
other day I opened up a door and
805
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:46.840
the kid's dead in the bed over
those farm, coming out of his nose,
806
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:51.440
coming out of his stupid kid.
Twenty of those smuggled drugs in the
807
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.679
detox, he indeed right in the
bed. So you know, it's the
808
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:59.079
job is gratifying. But today it's
a little tougher now with all this fetanyl
809
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:00.760
because it's in everything. A lot
of kids are dying out there. But
810
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:02.679
you know, I don't have to
worry. I'm not hurting nobody. I'm
811
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:07.320
not robbing nobody in my building.
My watch met no my needs. Most
812
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.639
of my needs are being met,
So I'm happy about that. But I'm
813
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.519
content, you know, I'm out
here. Look you said three, I'm
814
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:15.960
having a great time. I mean, I never in a million years though,
815
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:19.199
we'd be doing something like this.
If someone would have told you thirty
816
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.760
forty years ago that you were going
to cooperate and be sady the Bulls podcast,
817
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:24.599
she would have probably shot the guy
in the head. I want to
818
00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:28.400
change. I want to send you
out of your mind. Exactly me too.
819
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:30.480
I'm not a publisher. It never
was cooperating, and me, I
820
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:34.559
was, I was no job,
got it? I was quiet. Well,
821
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:37.280
the agent said, you were stern. You were kind of stern.
822
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:39.519
You were you were a stern guy
a little bit, I know, like
823
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:43.599
you were stern. Yes, absolutely, and you were quiet. I told
824
00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:45.840
guys, if you did smile much, you know, I didn't see a
825
00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:49.480
smile much. No, I sned
a little bit. I find a lot.
826
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.400
But I told the guy, there's
guys who came to me. I'll
827
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.880
give you guy came to me.
I was in prison with him, I
828
00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:59.320
grew I grew up with him.
He went to prison, and then he
829
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.119
came out. Sammy, so I
wanna be with you again, I said,
830
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:07.559
haven't you been away for fifteen years? I haven't seen you. I
831
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:09.519
don't know. I don't know you
anymore for the fifteen years. I hey,
832
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.159
you fucked around with drugs in prison. I don't know if you run
833
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.599
drugs now. I don't know if
you're wired up. I don't know.
834
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:17.559
I'm not saying you are. I'm
just saying I don't know. You're right,
835
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:22.360
So I'm gonna need time. Stay
in the street. I'll talk with
836
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:24.559
you, you know. And then
there was a couple of guys who wanted
837
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:28.079
to be with me, tough guys. They were dealing drugs. I said,
838
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.599
listen, I don't deal drugs,
and I'm not against it. There's
839
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:36.119
a lot of guys who deal drugs. Don't be with me, be with
840
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:38.840
them. Go ahead. I wish
you good luck, but if you're gonna
841
00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:43.320
be with me, you gotta give
me your word no drug dealing. You
842
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:49.199
can't take drugs, and if you
do, you know you're gonna regret it.
843
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.519
I'm gonna make you regret it.
So that's the deal. Just don't
844
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:55.119
mind. If you're gonna come on
board, you tell me this is what
845
00:54:55.159 --> 00:55:00.960
you're gonna do. And Nicky Cowboy
and Huck didn't live up to that,
846
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:05.599
and then we wound up dead.
So when it came to things like that,
847
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.760
I was pretty strict about it because
here's my theory. You come in
848
00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:15.199
and now you're taking drugs. Now
you taking different kind of heat that I
849
00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:20.239
take. All of a sudden,
we're getting pinched by the fucking DEA.
850
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:24.119
I fucked up all my crew.
I'm sitting in jail. You you're in
851
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:27.639
my crew, And how do I
answer? You? Said, Sam,
852
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:30.559
this guy's on drugs. You didn't
chase him. That's why we're sitting here,
853
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:35.679
and it is my fucking fault.
So I want to run my ship
854
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:39.280
where I want to run, Like, what's his name? The kid who
855
00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:43.639
says I didn't? I told him
not. We want to do an interview
856
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:52.360
with him. You mentioned him earlier. Tony Flesh, Fish Flesh came with
857
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:58.480
me. He tried to name Tommy, but I told him, I said,
858
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.639
Flesh, I really like you.
You're a good guy, but you're
859
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:06.360
not a fit for my crew.
And then he came to us and robbed
860
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:10.519
everybody. I said, you're not
a fit for us, so listen,
861
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.639
go with someone else. I'll always
be your friend. I'm not gonna bear
862
00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:19.440
mount you, but you're not a
fit for him, believe me. And
863
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:24.320
if you're not gonna work, yeah, you're gonna go. You're gonna goro.
864
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:27.679
And then he can. And then
he got hooked up with Tony Lee.
865
00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:30.480
And then he got ooked up with
Tony Lee and you guys are still
866
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.719
he was good. He was good
for a while. Yeah, he was
867
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:36.239
good until he wasn't. You know, you just like to take money,
868
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:37.559
and you know, jungle money.
He's a good guy. He's a lot
869
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:44.800
of fun. I'm still friends.
Yeah, I did a couple of weeks.
870
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:46.960
You didn't even play with him.
When when he comes in, I'll
871
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:51.679
take out one of those guys.
He said, your game is nickname.
872
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:54.000
You gave him the nickname Flash Flash. Yeah, Well, what the fuck
873
00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:55.800
did he do that? I get
I don't know. He said, to
874
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.320
send me the bull gaming my nickname, and Big Louis Is the took his
875
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:02.559
son to his first hockey game and
the kid almost went to the NHL.
876
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:06.880
His son, Johnny. He said, Big Louis took his son to the
877
00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:08.960
first hockey Big Louis guy. A
lot of guys asked me, you think
878
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:12.679
you made a mistake when you put
him in there. He's a good guy.
879
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:16.239
No, I didn't make a mistake, and now I'm I went away.
880
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:21.039
In ninety six, I saw him
in a club in Brooklyn, in
881
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:23.199
a restaurant. I forgot the name
of the restaurant. I can't think of
882
00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:28.400
it. And he was in there
and he told me that they passed mine
883
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:30.800
He's one of the guys that told
me they passed my name. They just
884
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:32.559
passed my name around and I was
going to get strained out. He told
885
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:36.679
me Big Louis told me he's a
good Yeah. I liked him. I
886
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.639
never made I remember when you strained
him out? Yeah, I strained him
887
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:43.679
out. I made him like he
took When I was a captain, when
888
00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:45.800
I got promoted, he John said
who is who do you want to take
889
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.480
over the crew? And I said
Big Louis. Yeah. And I didn't
890
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.280
make a mistake then. And I
know about him for years and years and
891
00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:57.440
years. I know for sure he
was He was the right pick. He
892
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:00.159
was a good guy. And anybody
I talked to says that, all right,
893
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:07.199
guy, this was a great talk. I'm gonna wind up and we
894
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:09.320
can do other things in the future. Like I said, I got.
895
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:13.880
I think the world of you.
Thank you. And see, it's so
896
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:21.360
comfortable talking to you because it's vice
versa. I'm good because it's, you
897
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:24.239
know, one tough guy to another, one gangster to another. It's so
898
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:30.239
refreshing and good when you're talking when
the guy's a fucking fraud or fake or
899
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:35.519
a different name that people are out
there now, a few of them not
900
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:37.039
lugh to talk about, but it
pieces, you know, and I feel
901
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:39.840
confident to you, like you know, I listen, I knew of you,
902
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:44.199
and then I knew you, and
you know I always respected you.
903
00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:46.719
You know, I always looked up
to you. You know. I remember,
904
00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:51.079
like yesterday and the raven I I
used to stand and I talk about
905
00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:52.719
it. I know I keep mentioning
it, but it was just I love
906
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:58.000
my job, so it was so, it was so the way it should
907
00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:00.000
be. Like listen, I remember
when I wasn't supposed to Carazo when he
908
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:04.679
was with my father. He's a
gangster nikki I love. Yeah. Yeah,
909
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:08.000
he used to stand with my father. He never left my father's side.
910
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:13.199
My father went home, never lay
my father's supposed to be. We're
911
00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:19.599
gonna have to go so and is
that yet? But it's been a pleasure,
912
00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:22.559
my pleasure and will go on,
I hope so. And uh,
913
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.559
we'll see what we gotta do.
So. Hi, I'm Anthony Rugiano and
914
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:30.639
thanks for watching. I'm saying no, no that comes later. How's this
915
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.719
is this good? Hi? I'm
Anthony Rugiano Jr. I'm saying me the
916
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:43.239
bou Gravano and thanks for watching.
Table in the back audio audios motherfuckers.
917
00:59:43.800 --> 01:00:00.079
Okay, all right, he