Kitty Dawson - Started modeling at 14: UK model now travels internationally!

WEBVTT
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Freelance models and today I have
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Jade Kitty Dawson on the line say hello
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hi everyone nice to meet you well
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Kitty thank you so much for taking this time
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to do the podcast with me I know we've kind of been going
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back and forth for what seems like at least a few months now and I've finally
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like was able to nail us down at the same time even though you're like on the
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other side of the earth yeah definitely a seven hour difference so we've done
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our best yeah you are out in the UK,
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yes that's cool what what's the modeling scene like over there honestly it's
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very different to Europe I'm not sure if you've toured Europe before but it's
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a kind of it's a bit lower paid than Europe and other countries but I tour internationally
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so much but international models coming here,
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they sometimes find it hard to break even due to the, you know,
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and the costs of coming here and the pay they're receiving.
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However, there are some photographers who will pay an international model's
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rate here, but it's not as much in their budget as the European photographers, if that makes sense.
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I see. So when you travel out of the UK, you make a higher profit margin?
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Yeah, usually, but it can depend because some tours can be hit and miss.
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Maybe you're, you know what I'm talking about because you've been doing this
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a long time as well. Yeah.
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I personally, I haven't, I've traveled to Europe and the UK.
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I haven't done any shoots in the UK, but I've done a few here and there,
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mostly for fun as I was on vacation in Europe,
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but I haven't done like a full-on tour in
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Europe trying to like make a profit so internationally
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the only places that I've really toured outside
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of the United States for like a bunch
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of bookings has been Australia and oddly
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enough Singapore oh awesome yeah
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but Australia is pretty good
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have you traveled there I'm actually planning to
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in the new year I'm I'm quite nervous about is
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sometimes I'm thinking oh do I go ahead with it or do I
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push it back but I think that's just a bridge
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that you know to get put on that kind of shield of
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armor and just go go and do it because
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you regret not taking those chances and going
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across the world and doing something you've not done before everything new can
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feel a bit nervous at some point but that's just because we're human so we do
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need to take those leaps of faith for sure yeah totally I've been there a few
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times And it's just a pretty big flight to get out there.
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So each time I went, I was there for three whole weeks just to make enough bookings
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to make the flight and all those expenses even out.
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Yeah, I get that. I'm planning to do two weeks, but then I was thinking it might
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be best for three weeks and it gives you a few days to look around and see things
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because I don't know about you, but it's a 22 or 24 hour flight for me.
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Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, it's quite crazy.
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And going all that way, you want to see something as well in the time off because
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there's lots of cool things to see across the world.
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Yeah absolutely and you know sometimes
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photographers want to shoot at places that you
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like would have been a tourist at i suppose yeah definitely
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and i have got quite a lot of interest so far and
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one photographer wants to shoot with me for two full days and
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he's going to pay for two nights of accommodation for me so that's quite yeah
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that's the best then it's going to be it's going to be fun that's awesome so
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let's let's rewind and go back to the beginning of your modeling career how
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did you first get into modeling,
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I first was doing something called site modeling have you heard of that.
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Site modeling? I'm not 100% sure. Explain it to me.
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Well, it was basically a kind of, I don't know if the word would be a fad or
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something, but I would just call it that at the moment.
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But there was a time where lots of people that were alternative would take their
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own pictures and edit them.
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And there'll be different Facebook accounts and pages that were different names
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like eat your heart out site modeling and just alternative pages also in general,
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like like pages with thousands of followers.
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And you would share your pictures with them
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and if you like if they like them they would share them on
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their pages and even maybe add you as one of their site models
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so at one point I had like 5,000 Facebook
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friends just from that because of all these people that
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like the pictures and I started it
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because I really loved doing my own makeup and hair
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the styling and creating the pictures I was
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like a one-woman show and some of these pictures
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went in online magazines as well and I
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really enjoyed it it brought me out of some mental health
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I was experiencing like depression and anxiety and
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such so doing something creative really helped
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me and feeling good with my own appearance made me feel good as well because
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I was bullied a lot in school so I started the sight modeling at 14 and it just
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it just made me have something to focus on and enjoy and get creative, if that makes sense.
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That's cool. So the site modeling, that's something where you take your own
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pictures and you contribute them.
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And there's these online groups that can reshare them and you can gain a following from that.
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Yeah, definitely. And that was my first kind of jumping to the model world,
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but not the professional world.
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That was basically like the egg that started it, if that makes sense. That's cool.
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And then how did that transfer from site modeling into like doing paid photo shoots.
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There was a few people on my Facebook at the time when I think a few years later,
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they mentioned to me a modeling website in England called Purpleport.
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And they told me, have you ever heard of that? I think you would like it on there.
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But I was only 16 at the time. So I thought I would wait until I'm 18 to join.
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Because obviously, if you're younger, you're going to have to come with your
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parents to these shoots and that kind of thing.
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And they probably weren't paying anyone at
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that age as well because it was more for collaboration I
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assume so I waited until I was 18
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and then I collaborated and enjoyed it and I said to myself I'm gonna have this
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as a hobby and see what I think and you never know one day Monday one day I
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might you know get work from it and I did have an intuitive feeling when I said
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that as well And like the site modeling,
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I really enjoyed doing it and meeting the different people and getting some
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bookings here and there for a while while building my portfolio and eventually
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getting to how I am now with it being my full-time job,
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which if you told me that back then, I would have had faith at one point,
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but I would have been a bit skeptical. Like, is that really going to happen?
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Yeah, totally. Totally. And so when you started when you were 14,
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you were mostly an alternative model.
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And is that just because that was your style at the time? Like you were like a goth girl?
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Yes, that was my style at the time. And I still got lots of alternative clothing,
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but I don't always shoot in it.
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But sometimes I get requests of those kinds of things or cosplay and gothic.
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But I'm mainly quite versatile now. I used to even have snakebite piercings
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and I don't have them anymore.
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Yeah. So I definitely... Alternative modeling, it's like when I think of alternative
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modeling, I think of like lots of tattoos. Do you have lots of tattoos?
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No, actually, I've got no tattoos. The piercings and the makeup and styling
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was what kind of made me alternative looking, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, gotcha. I was like, because I didn't see any when I was looking at your pictures.
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But I guess maybe that's, I don't know if that's like a United States association
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with the alternative modeling and tattoos. But yeah.
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In England, they would say the same or someone with lots of piercings or a bit of both,
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but there are some alternative models with no tattoos, but it's more common
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these days for a model that's alternative to have tattoos or even any model
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to have at least one or two.
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Yeah, makes sense. I have a couple myself.
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Ah, nice. Yeah. So over there in your region of the world, Purpleport is definitely more dominant.
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Because over here, Purpleport for me, there's not as many photographers and
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models in the U.S. that are on Purpleport.
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I think it's starting to get more popular over here. But when I first signed
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up for Purpleport, they eventually just shut my account down because there's
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no activity for several months.
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Oh, gosh. Yeah. I didn't
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know they did that because there's some photographers that are on there and
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it will say they've not logged in in so many years and they're still on there
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and I think what why would you you know they've not been active in three years
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so maybe they've just changed things now but I know it's not as popular in the
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US there's so many websites and social media and so much different
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opportunities but purple port isn't
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the only site that English models use there are various and
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model mayhem sometimes goes about but there's
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quite quite a few but some are
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not some are not worth it for me or some may be
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higher levels I don't do like adult so I stay away from those sites because
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sometimes with those sites you may have some people trying to ask for extras
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as such which you know we're models we don't do that we're here to do the modeling
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right yeah tell me about it. Yeah, I know what you mean.
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So as far as like your range of modeling, you do the alternative modeling and
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I see lots of like beautiful portraits and fashion and some lingerie on your
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page. Do you also do artistic nude modeling?
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Yes, I do tasteful and artistic nude modeling.
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And I've done that since I was 19. I'm now 27.
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So I've got a lot of experience with art nude now as well. And I feel so comfortable.
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It's strange. Some people would ask, oh, don't you feel a bit nervous doing
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that or, you know, body conscious?
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And I say, no, it just feels like I'm just, you know, walking around in an outfit in a way.
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Yeah, that makes sense. So when you first started doing the artistic nude modeling,
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did you have any resistance to it at first? Or did anybody in your friends or
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family circle, like, give you any kind of resistance?
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I would say, I think going to the kind of the start of it would help explain that a bit more.
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For example, I wasn't ever envisioning to do art nude modeling when I started.
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I knew there was models that did nude, but I was thinking of fashion and laundry
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and maybe a bit of topless.
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Then working with many photographers and them telling me, oh,
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I think you'd be great at art nude, Kitty.
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You've got a great figure for it. And they would say lots of nice things about
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it because I had the physique that would work well with that,
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or one of the physiques, let's say.
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So I did my first collaboration shoot with a photographer I trusted up to Art
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Nude, who was a professional.
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And I remember getting so many goosebumps and feeling a bit nervous,
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but enjoying trying this new kind of modeling.
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And then seeing the photos after, I was so amazed and happy.
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And I thought, wow, that's me. I didn't know I looked as nice as that.
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Of course, I knew I looked nice in some way, but you don't know how you look
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completely unless you've done a shoot like that.
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Yes. And then when I did it, I decided to do, obviously, start doing more collaborations
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and build an art nude portfolio, too.
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That's good. I'm glad that your introduction to nude modeling was positive.
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Yeah. Yeah, and there was some family members that were against it,
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like my mother or an auntie.
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But, you know, that's good. I'm sure maybe it's happened in your life as being
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a friend or a family member that weren't sure about it.
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Oh, definitely. Yeah, my family was really conservative.
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And also, like, from what I hear, the United States is a little extra weird
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about nudity in general. And there's more stigma about it. Like,
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what's it like as far as nudity stigma over in the UK?
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And I don't know how it compares exactly, but I would say that so many people,
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the general public, would assume that nudity is sexual, nudity is porn straight away.
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However, there are some groups of people that would realize it's artistic because
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I've done nature shoots before in water and such.
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And I'm seeing people come by and some people have just walked past and said,
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oh, wow, it's great what you're doing.
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You're going to get some great photos. So to hear some people say that,
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that, you know, witness me aren't nude on location, that don't know me at all,
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it shows that there are people that understand this.
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But there's also equally people that are very opposed or they think you're shooting
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a porn or something when you're just sitting on some rocks and posing away.
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Yeah it totally that's it's nice
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if there's a passerby that you maybe weren't necessarily
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like hoping to cross a passerby out in
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a nature shoot it it's nice when they're like
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oh cool keep doing what you're doing instead of like freaking
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out yeah i've had more
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people supportive than freaking out but of course the
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people that just look look and then turn up their head and continue walking
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and a bit like shocked yeah and
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tell me about it speaking of freaking
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out i have this part of my podcast where i ask everybody can you recall any
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crazy photo shoot experiences that you would like to share and this could be
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like anything like crazy good crazy bad crazy weird weird passerbys crazy photographers.
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Crazy photo shoot ideas.
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Like what is one or two of your craziest modeling stories?
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There's so many because I've done like over 740 shoots now, but the one that's
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sticking to my head right now currently
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would be, I was posing art nude in Ireland in this nature reserve.
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And randomly this guy walked past and saw me and he sat at the bench nearest
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to us, took out a sandwich from
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his brown sandwich bag and just started eating it, watching the shoot.
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And I thought He was just obviously curious But I thought wow I'm his entertainment there,
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Maybe that's a small moment, but it was just funny witnessing it,
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like, you know, someone sitting down just to eat their sandwich and watch you.
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Wow. How far away from you was he sitting?
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Very close, I would say. I wouldn't be able to gauge the numbers,
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but he was close enough, definitely.
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Yeah. Did he say anything? No, he didn't. I think he was just a curious old man, actually.
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It's extra weird when people don't say anything yeah
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definitely but I do think that maybe like
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at the end of the day you can imagine how many people he might
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have told he might said oh you won't believe what I was eating my sandwich
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watching today in the park yeah exactly
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but like honestly like for
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people listening if you're out and about and you
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are witnessing a nude shoot I
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in my opinion I think the
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best thing to do would say like oh I love
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like what you guys are doing here this is so nice and
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if they want to watch be like would you be comfortable if
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I sat over here and observed if I
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didn't bother you I mean like what do you think about
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how do you make it not weird you know I think
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exactly you hit the nail on the head there a
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bit of communication just to you know be civil
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and peaceful and you know show that you're not being strange
00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:41.090
and you're just friendly yeah obviously
00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:43.950
the model could be slightly vulnerable being nude and
00:16:43.950 --> 00:16:46.890
there is a photographer there but you don't know if he can fully
00:16:46.890 --> 00:16:51.510
protect her if this person's strange yeah it's good to make all parties feel
00:16:51.510 --> 00:16:58.770
safe and just be friendly and human yeah exactly in your region are there like
00:16:58.770 --> 00:17:05.030
nude beaches or like nudity permitted in like nature areas that people go to.
00:17:06.189 --> 00:17:09.049
I've heard there are some nude beaches in England.
00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:13.629
I've not been to them, but I've also heard there's like nudist events,
00:17:13.969 --> 00:17:18.389
like maybe there's some kind of nature event that has a hot tub and a kind of
00:17:18.389 --> 00:17:22.349
big cabin or something and people will go there, but that's nudists.
00:17:22.569 --> 00:17:25.869
But as for a nudist beach, I've not been to one.
00:17:25.929 --> 00:17:31.429
I walked onto one in Spain just after a shoot and I'd done like a selfie and
00:17:31.429 --> 00:17:36.129
the amount of people that was looking at me walking past because not a lot of
00:17:36.129 --> 00:17:39.809
the time a young, really in shape lady is walking down there.
00:17:40.349 --> 00:17:46.069
Yeah, totally. The reason I ask is because among all of the podcast episodes
00:17:46.069 --> 00:17:48.549
that I've interviewed people on,
00:17:48.909 --> 00:17:55.789
a good chunk of the crazy stories that people have told have happened at nude
00:17:55.789 --> 00:18:03.229
beaches where there's just some naked guy wanking it in the bushes watching
00:18:03.229 --> 00:18:06.029
the photo shoot. Oh, my God. Yeah.
00:18:07.329 --> 00:18:12.969
Wow. Right. Yeah. So, like, it's kind of weird because it's like you would think
00:18:12.969 --> 00:18:19.249
that the nudity-friendly zone would be the place where people are most normalized
00:18:19.249 --> 00:18:20.909
to the nudity-friendly. Yeah.
00:18:21.394 --> 00:18:24.894
I think it often attracts like the opposite kind of crowd.
00:18:25.694 --> 00:18:29.694
Yeah, you have to be careful. There's some photographers also that told me in
00:18:29.694 --> 00:18:33.254
the past that they're a nudist, like outside of photo shoots.
00:18:33.294 --> 00:18:39.894
And I was quite open and respectful of that because everyone comes from all walks of life.
00:18:40.034 --> 00:18:43.014
And that did make me think, oh, maybe they're more comfortable with it.
00:18:43.294 --> 00:18:49.174
But not all the time, because I once actually shot with someone while they were nude.
00:18:49.174 --> 00:18:52.474
They asked me in advance of this and I
00:18:52.474 --> 00:18:55.134
said as long as you are an actual naturist and you're not going
00:18:55.134 --> 00:18:58.014
to be weird I've not done that before but I knew this
00:18:58.014 --> 00:19:01.094
person for probably like I don't know four years
00:19:01.094 --> 00:19:04.014
I used to tour tour at theirs in Ireland twice a
00:19:04.014 --> 00:19:06.914
year so I built up that rapport with them for so many
00:19:06.914 --> 00:19:10.294
years and they asked so I felt comfortable with
00:19:10.294 --> 00:19:13.694
them and I thought okay they're not going to be strange and turns
00:19:13.694 --> 00:19:16.794
out even after knowing them for those years they were strange
00:19:16.794 --> 00:19:21.994
and they were trying to ask for a hug and trying to ask for a kiss and and it's
00:19:21.994 --> 00:19:25.974
crazy how it's crazy isn't it that you know someone for that many years and
00:19:25.974 --> 00:19:29.714
stay at their house on tours and shoot with them each time and after all that
00:19:29.714 --> 00:19:35.134
time really then their nudist approach is actually they're a pervert that's what it is.
00:19:35.717 --> 00:19:39.197
That's what it is, isn't it? Some of these nudists are perverts and some are
00:19:39.197 --> 00:19:42.717
actual nudists who are just comfortable with being nude and,
00:19:42.857 --> 00:19:43.957
you know, being in nature.
00:19:44.837 --> 00:19:48.597
Yeah right and like you know there's
00:19:48.597 --> 00:19:51.737
no harm in like you know trying to
00:19:51.737 --> 00:19:54.437
like give somebody the benefit of the doubt you know
00:19:54.437 --> 00:19:57.757
like oh yeah I want to respect your lifestyle and
00:19:57.757 --> 00:20:00.997
if you would prefer to also be nude and this is your lifestyle then
00:20:00.997 --> 00:20:04.357
this should be comfortable right but it's so disheartening to
00:20:04.357 --> 00:20:08.117
hear that person got weird on you yeah exactly
00:20:08.117 --> 00:20:11.217
it just makes me think I was being a bit naive because many
00:20:11.217 --> 00:20:14.277
models wouldn't even say yes to something like
00:20:14.277 --> 00:20:16.997
that but that's the last time I say yes to
00:20:16.997 --> 00:20:20.337
something like that that was a good few years ago now but
00:20:20.337 --> 00:20:25.657
yeah it's weird because also the person every every I don't know every so many
00:20:25.657 --> 00:20:30.017
months they try and email me and say like if you're interested in coming for
00:20:30.017 --> 00:20:34.057
a tour I'm happy to host you or I'm happy to book you for a shoot and I think
00:20:34.057 --> 00:20:39.597
don't you realize you burn that bridge now so so definitely it's a bit creepy for sure.
00:20:40.137 --> 00:20:43.857
Does he know that he freaked you out yeah i
00:20:43.857 --> 00:20:46.757
told him that that wasn't on that you know you wasn't he
00:20:46.757 --> 00:20:49.697
was nude and i respected that as long as obviously
00:20:49.697 --> 00:20:52.597
you're not sitting in any weird positions in front of me
00:20:52.597 --> 00:20:58.537
of course and i'm not trying to like make anything sexual but yeah him asking
00:20:58.537 --> 00:21:03.117
for a kiss and a hug maybe it wasn't sexual to him i don't know but at the end
00:21:03.117 --> 00:21:07.557
of the day you've not got clothes on you're not supposed to ask that stuff even
00:21:07.557 --> 00:21:10.997
with clothes on really Right. So maybe a hug, really.
00:21:11.237 --> 00:21:14.037
You have a photographer you've known for years. But, you know,
00:21:14.137 --> 00:21:17.137
he knew he was nude. He was trying his luck.
00:21:17.197 --> 00:21:19.597
And we was on an island in Ireland.
00:21:20.647 --> 00:21:23.487
Funnily enough like you get what i mean an island in
00:21:23.487 --> 00:21:26.487
the country island yeah there's another way off of
00:21:26.487 --> 00:21:29.927
this island because we was on it together oh my
00:21:29.927 --> 00:21:32.807
god that's so awkward yeah and it wasn't like he was trying to
00:21:32.807 --> 00:21:35.467
kiss you when he wasn't nude in the
00:21:35.467 --> 00:21:38.787
past so like i don't understand how he can't
00:21:38.787 --> 00:21:42.327
see how he was being creepy yeah and
00:21:42.327 --> 00:21:45.227
he even said to me at the shoot day at one point like
00:21:45.227 --> 00:21:48.267
when he was nude and he says he went out of nowhere he
00:21:48.267 --> 00:21:51.247
said he said i've never had sex with a woman i said
00:21:51.247 --> 00:21:53.927
what really and he went oh oh um oh there was
00:21:53.927 --> 00:21:56.887
one time i forgot about that and i thought no this
00:21:56.887 --> 00:21:59.727
person is a virgin and they were probably like in their
00:21:59.727 --> 00:22:03.107
70s oh my god so i
00:22:03.107 --> 00:22:05.927
feel like they were a virgin and it's probably messed them
00:22:05.927 --> 00:22:09.187
up a bit in their head because you know as humans we you
00:22:09.187 --> 00:22:12.367
know we have to have sex at one point to you
00:22:12.367 --> 00:22:17.207
know balance our brain and everything it's a part of life now it's not too strange
00:22:17.207 --> 00:22:21.427
mentioning that to everyone here but i'm sure you'll get what we're saying yeah
00:22:21.427 --> 00:22:26.047
yeah it's I mean it's it's normal to have like human connection on that level
00:22:26.047 --> 00:22:30.447
between consenting adults yes exactly.
00:22:31.315 --> 00:22:39.015
Exactly. But I see that situation as a very crazy one. And I didn't even mention the cherry on top of it.
00:22:39.155 --> 00:22:44.115
When we was coming off of the island, he put the shelter down too soon when
00:22:44.115 --> 00:22:46.595
I told him to keep it up because it was really hot.
00:22:46.955 --> 00:22:52.955
And so he decided to put the shelter down before the boat was coming to collect us.
00:22:52.955 --> 00:22:55.695
And i asked various times could i have the
00:22:55.695 --> 00:22:58.435
sun cream please because we were sharing sun cream and
00:22:58.435 --> 00:23:01.475
it was in his bag and he kept saying oh soon soon and
00:23:01.475 --> 00:23:04.395
and i kept having to keep asking and then eventually
00:23:04.395 --> 00:23:07.135
the last time i asked oh no no we can't now it's at the bottom of
00:23:07.135 --> 00:23:09.975
my bag and by the time we were
00:23:09.975 --> 00:23:12.855
getting on the boat and got on the boat the boat broke
00:23:12.855 --> 00:23:16.475
down in the water uh and when
00:23:16.475 --> 00:23:19.495
we got when we finally got it working after probably an hour
00:23:19.495 --> 00:23:22.395
in there oh like on the sea or not
00:23:22.395 --> 00:23:25.155
on the sea I don't know what I guess it's the sea or the
00:23:25.155 --> 00:23:28.975
coast let's say once I finally departed I
00:23:28.975 --> 00:23:33.675
noticed so much redness on my face and I was chronically sunburned I was in
00:23:33.675 --> 00:23:38.575
the sun for five hours without sun cream and it wasn't my choice I didn't you
00:23:38.575 --> 00:23:42.615
know I wasn't I was denied the sun cream and the shelter was obviously put down
00:23:42.615 --> 00:23:47.915
way too soon and I had to take about two months off of shoots or a whole month.
00:23:48.115 --> 00:23:51.495
It was quite a long time and I looked like I had a chemical accident.
00:23:52.115 --> 00:23:54.015
Oh my god that's terrible.
00:23:55.095 --> 00:23:59.955
Yeah but luckily I'm fine now but something like that really affects your confidence
00:23:59.955 --> 00:24:03.895
and sometimes looking months later you're thinking oh do I still look red because
00:24:03.895 --> 00:24:07.435
it's you know psychologically traumatized you that amount of something.
00:24:08.255 --> 00:24:11.195
Yeah yeah and some people that you
00:24:11.195 --> 00:24:15.755
know if you don't make a living off of like the appearance of your skin and
00:24:15.755 --> 00:24:19.655
stuff like that like you know a lot of photographers don't even use sunscreen
00:24:19.655 --> 00:24:24.335
they don't care they don't think about it and they're not necessarily as empathetic
00:24:24.335 --> 00:24:28.575
of the model who it's like we can't have tan lines we can't have like a,
00:24:29.146 --> 00:24:32.706
burnt face like come on like that's that
00:24:32.706 --> 00:24:35.466
sucks he kept on asking for it and he was like
00:24:35.466 --> 00:24:39.226
oh yeah we'll get it later that that sucks yeah definitely
00:24:39.226 --> 00:24:42.006
it's crazy but I feel like that
00:24:42.006 --> 00:24:44.866
is quite an interesting story even though being in
00:24:44.866 --> 00:24:49.106
that experience you didn't enjoy it it shows that I've come through that and
00:24:49.106 --> 00:24:53.406
kind of some signs to look out for in a person because even if they're seeming
00:24:53.406 --> 00:24:57.726
nice and you've known them for a long time you need to kind of assess someone
00:24:57.726 --> 00:25:02.006
psychologically a little bit more than the usual job being a model.
00:25:02.306 --> 00:25:06.946
And I already do that, but I thought I mastered it. But that showed me that
00:25:06.946 --> 00:25:09.426
I still had things to learn and I was a bit naive.
00:25:10.385 --> 00:25:14.925
Girl, like, I've had similar situations with other,
00:25:15.145 --> 00:25:21.965
almost always a male photographer where you trust them for years and then they
00:25:21.965 --> 00:25:24.725
do some weird shit and it kind of, like,
00:25:24.905 --> 00:25:28.085
makes you lose faith in humanity a little bit because you're like,
00:25:28.185 --> 00:25:33.425
oh, I thought I knew who and how to trust and then somebody breaks that trust
00:25:33.425 --> 00:25:37.005
severely and it, like, freelance modeling,
00:25:37.385 --> 00:25:40.425
it's like, especially with people that you work with
00:25:40.425 --> 00:25:43.245
regularly for years you know
00:25:43.245 --> 00:25:46.745
you might not know that that person has like
00:25:46.745 --> 00:25:49.785
you know maybe they have a crush on you and they're hiding it
00:25:49.785 --> 00:25:53.245
and then one day they're gonna like spring something on you like you don't you
00:25:53.245 --> 00:25:57.785
never know you guys have to be always watching your back unfortunately yeah
00:25:57.785 --> 00:26:03.385
it's just about safety first and i've noticed obviously from working as a model
00:26:03.385 --> 00:26:08.525
for so long that there's more good apples than bad and it's Right with people.
00:26:08.685 --> 00:26:10.945
There's more kind people than horrible people.
00:26:11.565 --> 00:26:17.105
So yeah, that's good. It's good that I have so little negative experience because
00:26:17.105 --> 00:26:21.285
some models, they've stopped modeling because they've had so many negative experiences.
00:26:21.725 --> 00:26:27.565
Yeah, it's true. And I mean, I've definitely had a wide range of experiences,
00:26:27.565 --> 00:26:28.885
but I would agree with you.
00:26:29.005 --> 00:26:37.805
I would say that 90 to 95% of people that I've worked with are nice and respectful and cool,
00:26:38.125 --> 00:26:46.125
but when it comes to the 5 or 10% that are a little crazy or they have something
00:26:46.125 --> 00:26:48.925
up their sleeve that you don't find out until later,
00:26:49.545 --> 00:26:54.825
those stories I think they're important to share because it helps other models
00:26:54.825 --> 00:26:57.285
be aware of what could happen.
00:26:58.691 --> 00:27:02.271
Yeah, definitely. Because there's so many models that just, you know,
00:27:02.371 --> 00:27:06.631
accept every shoot they get and they don't think anything about the messages they're receiving.
00:27:06.631 --> 00:27:10.731
And they do tend to have more negative experiences because they're not kind
00:27:10.731 --> 00:27:15.431
of using psychology in some way to see it's like, oh, well, this person's being
00:27:15.431 --> 00:27:19.151
a bit blunt with me here, or they seem a bit strange with what they're saying.
00:27:19.291 --> 00:27:21.611
They just think, oh, they're booking me for a shoot and that's it.
00:27:21.611 --> 00:27:25.591
So you need to be a bit more safety conscious, but also, of course,
00:27:25.771 --> 00:27:30.411
you know, kind and not, I don't know, open-minded is the word of being there for outgoing.
00:27:30.551 --> 00:27:35.791
So kind, outgoing, charismatic, and obviously being passionate about what you're
00:27:35.791 --> 00:27:37.731
doing will get you a long way.
00:27:37.731 --> 00:27:41.151
Yeah yeah I agree definitely like
00:27:41.151 --> 00:27:44.051
being able to read between the lines when
00:27:44.051 --> 00:27:46.771
somebody's like emailing you it's really
00:27:46.771 --> 00:27:50.751
it can be helpful or you know definitely checking references
00:27:50.751 --> 00:27:57.071
on new photographers and stuff I it's it's all it's all important you know and
00:27:57.071 --> 00:28:01.671
but yeah I mean every once in a while when I'm trying to check references on
00:28:01.671 --> 00:28:07.211
somebody they'll get offended and say like oh are you calling me some kind of a creep?
00:28:07.451 --> 00:28:11.071
Like, I don't want to work with somebody who's accusing me of being a creep.
00:28:11.071 --> 00:28:15.051
And I'm like, no, I don't think that you're a creep. I'm just doing my diligence
00:28:15.051 --> 00:28:18.191
of checking references like I always do for everybody.
00:28:18.571 --> 00:28:22.591
So, you know, I think that that in itself could be a rough flag.
00:28:23.303 --> 00:28:26.023
Yeah, but sometimes it's just
00:28:26.023 --> 00:28:29.643
they built up so much rapport for themselves and we haven't seen it yet.
00:28:29.783 --> 00:28:35.263
And they quickly get annoyed because they would never want to be associated with that.
00:28:35.423 --> 00:28:40.803
There's a guy in Geneva who said he hosts models a lot on Instagram.
00:28:40.923 --> 00:28:45.283
And he sent me a big list of all these models he's hosted before,
00:28:45.423 --> 00:28:49.043
but I didn't check them out just yet because I'm not staying there anytime soon.
00:28:49.043 --> 00:28:53.083
And I just asked him, I said, oh, with the room I'm staying in,
00:28:53.143 --> 00:28:54.203
is there a lock on the door?
00:28:54.463 --> 00:28:58.063
And he said, a lock on the door? Why do you ask that? I work with so many models.
00:28:59.383 --> 00:29:02.603
And I can't remember exactly what he said, but it seemed like he was making
00:29:02.603 --> 00:29:03.883
a point to try and say that.
00:29:04.083 --> 00:29:08.443
Why do you think I'm weird? I work with all these models. I'm fine kind of thing.
00:29:08.623 --> 00:29:11.163
And I thought, well, I'm just asking about a lock. And I said,
00:29:11.223 --> 00:29:12.023
well, does it have a lock?
00:29:12.103 --> 00:29:15.163
And he said, no, because sometimes I need to get my stuff. And I thought,
00:29:15.403 --> 00:29:19.643
well, surely with me out of the room, but I didn't further message about that
00:29:19.643 --> 00:29:21.863
because I thought he seemed like he was really offended.
00:29:21.883 --> 00:29:24.403
But I was asking about, you know, the lock.
00:29:24.683 --> 00:29:26.823
And I thought, but isn't that a normal thing to ask?
00:29:27.763 --> 00:29:31.103
Right yeah i mean i feel like if somebody gets offended
00:29:31.103 --> 00:29:34.723
when you're asking like basic safety questions like
00:29:34.723 --> 00:29:39.103
that could be a red flag it's like yeah maybe you've hosted a lot of other models
00:29:39.103 --> 00:29:43.683
but like some people have certain things that they need to feel safe and comfortable
00:29:43.683 --> 00:29:48.823
especially when staying at the house of a man they've never met before yeah
00:29:48.823 --> 00:29:52.823
exactly it would make me feel more comfortable having a lock unless i knew the
00:29:52.823 --> 00:29:54.463
photographer for a long time.
00:29:55.478 --> 00:30:01.358
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And so when you're traveling, do you often look for hosting
00:30:01.358 --> 00:30:03.778
with other people or do you get hotels?
00:30:04.558 --> 00:30:08.658
It differs i would say i get airbnbs more
00:30:08.658 --> 00:30:11.798
often but there's some places i will go with
00:30:11.798 --> 00:30:14.578
a host and photographer and sometimes i've even
00:30:14.578 --> 00:30:17.498
not you know not met this photographer and only checked all
00:30:17.498 --> 00:30:20.258
the references of models who stayed there and asked them oh
00:30:20.258 --> 00:30:23.038
how has he been during the stay and once i've got that
00:30:23.038 --> 00:30:26.018
get go i will you know fly out to start my tour and meet
00:30:26.018 --> 00:30:28.818
this photographer i've never met before and stay in
00:30:28.818 --> 00:30:32.098
this house which sounds quite crazy but yeah
00:30:32.098 --> 00:30:35.398
as long as you've checked all the references of who's hosted then
00:30:35.398 --> 00:30:38.658
you are safe yeah i mean i've definitely
00:30:38.658 --> 00:30:41.618
had some weird hosting situations in my
00:30:41.618 --> 00:30:44.778
past as well yeah and it's like
00:30:44.778 --> 00:30:47.638
somebody can be fine for a two-hour shoot but then
00:30:47.638 --> 00:30:51.438
staying at their house is weird you know yeah totally
00:30:51.438 --> 00:30:54.638
but but like
00:30:54.638 --> 00:30:58.238
with anything like most of my experiences have been positive so
00:30:58.238 --> 00:31:01.398
for everybody listening that i just think that oh this
00:31:01.398 --> 00:31:04.458
whole world is just full of a bunch of negativity it's not
00:31:04.458 --> 00:31:07.238
it's just you know it's more important I mean
00:31:07.238 --> 00:31:10.518
to talk about just like not everybody
00:31:10.518 --> 00:31:14.398
wants to hear all the fantastic stories where the shoot went fine and they were
00:31:14.398 --> 00:31:18.758
great and everything was perfect because it's like good that's what's expected
00:31:18.758 --> 00:31:24.438
we want to raise awareness about you know things to look out for and like with
00:31:24.438 --> 00:31:30.178
the photographer that didn't want to let you use the sun cream like that's.
00:31:30.731 --> 00:31:37.511
That's an instance of like something that's not necessarily like creepy or predatory,
00:31:37.511 --> 00:31:45.011
but just kind of like a lack of empathy or a lack of like decency when it comes
00:31:45.011 --> 00:31:50.211
to like making sure that the model that you're working with is like,
00:31:50.571 --> 00:31:56.191
you know, their autonomy is protected or they're safe and comfortable.
00:31:56.191 --> 00:31:59.371
And things like shooting in the cold or
00:31:59.371 --> 00:32:02.131
if you have a full day shoot having a break to have
00:32:02.131 --> 00:32:05.091
lunch like things like that are are some
00:32:05.091 --> 00:32:08.131
things that i have had hard lessons
00:32:08.131 --> 00:32:10.831
on in the past and i've had to
00:32:10.831 --> 00:32:14.231
learn the hard way you know what my boundaries are
00:32:14.231 --> 00:32:17.571
and a lot of models have yeah definitely
00:32:17.571 --> 00:32:20.351
because there's some some photographers that won't
00:32:20.351 --> 00:32:23.711
really think about that stuff or they'll be so much about
00:32:23.711 --> 00:32:26.591
getting them as many pictures as they can even if they're
00:32:26.591 --> 00:32:29.391
not all going to be quality it just
00:32:29.391 --> 00:32:32.131
like a lot of photographers once they get past the
00:32:32.131 --> 00:32:35.211
very new stage they end up taking less pictures
00:32:35.211 --> 00:32:37.971
and working with quality and making sure the model is
00:32:37.971 --> 00:32:43.891
comfortable and offering you know water or snacks and in england different teas
00:32:43.891 --> 00:32:51.271
and more you know teas or coffee that's nice so in your area when you're traveling
00:32:51.271 --> 00:32:55.791
internationally what are some of the main places that you go.
00:32:56.910 --> 00:33:03.930
Mainly when I am going to national to Europe, I would go to Netherlands, Belgium, Germany.
00:33:04.270 --> 00:33:08.030
I would go to also Ireland and Scotland and Wales.
00:33:08.630 --> 00:33:13.790
And I've been to Norway once so far, but there's not a huge community or huge
00:33:13.790 --> 00:33:17.230
list I've gained at the moment. So I've not went back just yet.
00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:21.290
So I need to do a bit of a search to find some more photographers.
00:33:21.770 --> 00:33:26.470
And I've also been to Switzerland two or three times now, which I really enjoyed.
00:33:26.470 --> 00:33:32.090
It's a beautiful country really that's awesome I've never been to Switzerland
00:33:32.090 --> 00:33:37.590
or Ireland but I've heard that they're really beautiful and one day I'll definitely go out there.
00:33:38.290 --> 00:33:40.990
Yeah and definitely it's so it's so
00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:44.090
beautiful and so many photographers I meet abroad are
00:33:44.090 --> 00:33:46.990
usually really lovely and sometimes I'll turn up
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:50.110
and they've got all this different like food and snacks and things prepared
00:33:50.110 --> 00:33:53.130
and it kind of you know shocks me and it
00:33:53.130 --> 00:33:55.990
makes me smile I remember one time where I
00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:58.790
went to a shoot and I think he's already said
00:33:58.790 --> 00:34:01.850
in advance he's going to make sure there's food there and
00:34:01.850 --> 00:34:04.890
I thought okay and when I turned up the whole table was full
00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:07.690
of full of food it was bread and hams and
00:34:07.690 --> 00:34:10.770
cheeses and all this different stuff but because I'm
00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:13.950
plant-based I couldn't eat any of it so I felt guilty
00:34:13.950 --> 00:34:16.910
but I thought well this effort he's put into I've
00:34:16.910 --> 00:34:19.710
just that effort than that thought was enough for
00:34:19.710 --> 00:34:24.370
me if that makes sense it was so lovely but when I told him oh I can't eat any
00:34:24.370 --> 00:34:29.110
of it because I'm lactose intolerant and I'm plant-based you saw his face drop
00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:32.430
and you probably was thinking oh why did and then he said why didn't you tell
00:34:32.430 --> 00:34:37.390
me and I thought because you didn't ask me what I did but it's just been sweet though.
00:34:40.210 --> 00:34:44.430
Too bad you couldn't have eaten any of it but it is nice when photographers
00:34:44.430 --> 00:34:49.670
provide snacks it just shows that they see you as another human being sometimes
00:34:49.670 --> 00:34:54.010
they ask in advance oh what sandwich would you like and stuff but usually when
00:34:54.010 --> 00:34:58.150
I'm on shoot set I avoid wheat that's like the main thing I avoid just because
00:34:58.150 --> 00:34:59.850
I seem to bloat a lot from it and.
00:35:01.213 --> 00:35:04.913
Obviously, our image is important. So if we're going to a shoot and we look
00:35:04.913 --> 00:35:07.413
really bloated, we might not like any of the pictures.
00:35:07.673 --> 00:35:11.873
And so it's about doing the best thing for us.
00:35:12.033 --> 00:35:16.553
And usually if the food bloats us so much, it's probably like not a good food
00:35:16.553 --> 00:35:19.493
for us. It might be like an intolerance or something.
00:35:20.093 --> 00:35:26.353
Yes. So photographers listening, even though like stereotypically in the past,
00:35:26.513 --> 00:35:28.233
people say don't feed the models.
00:35:28.233 --> 00:35:31.533
Feed the models we like snacks but ask
00:35:31.533 --> 00:35:34.913
us what our dietary needs are first but
00:35:34.913 --> 00:35:38.573
but i would say that snacks and water coffee like
00:35:38.573 --> 00:35:45.153
whatever like it always lifts my mood like even if it's just like you know just
00:35:45.153 --> 00:35:48.813
quick and easy snacks that you just picked up at the gas station like like a
00:35:48.813 --> 00:35:53.893
protein bar or something like that it's nice yeah definitely and it shows your
00:35:53.893 --> 00:35:56.853
thought of for sure and it helps give the energy boost,
00:35:57.013 --> 00:36:00.033
especially when you're using so much physical energy modeling,
00:36:00.033 --> 00:36:04.213
which not a lot of people or the general public realize.
00:36:04.213 --> 00:36:09.113
Some people may think that modeling is like an easy job or not physically demanding
00:36:09.113 --> 00:36:14.153
when you know more than anyone how physically demanding it is because of all your trips.
00:36:15.193 --> 00:36:19.813
Yes, definitely. Yeah, especially when you are living on the road.
00:36:20.033 --> 00:36:24.373
Like for me, having lots of small snacks throughout the day is a good way to
00:36:24.373 --> 00:36:29.893
maintain my my energy because if I eat one big meal that I feel lethargic for
00:36:29.893 --> 00:36:34.173
a while afterwards so I just travel with snacks and if the photographer is going
00:36:34.173 --> 00:36:35.853
to provide snacks that's even better.
00:36:37.816 --> 00:36:41.736
Yeah, I agree. I feel like I just feel like I want to just sit down and watch
00:36:41.736 --> 00:36:44.596
some MTV if I have a big meal.
00:36:44.836 --> 00:36:48.556
So snacks and smaller things are more helpful to make me feel energized.
00:36:48.556 --> 00:36:51.616
Wow i have another question
00:36:51.616 --> 00:36:54.516
that i would like to ask that i also ask everybody
00:36:54.516 --> 00:36:58.256
on the show i call it the rising phoenix
00:36:58.256 --> 00:37:04.356
era of your life can you describe a situation and it could be related to your
00:37:04.356 --> 00:37:09.076
modeling or not where you were faced with some kind of challenge that you had
00:37:09.076 --> 00:37:16.596
to overcome is that now take your time okay i i would say the.
00:37:17.750 --> 00:37:24.590
Leap of faith of having but complete belief in myself and the universe if that makes sense.
00:37:25.530 --> 00:37:28.490
With when I moved into my my own
00:37:28.490 --> 00:37:31.550
house my dad was here for a few years and before
00:37:31.550 --> 00:37:34.310
he moved away he was making sure that
00:37:34.310 --> 00:37:37.310
oh are you sure you can support yourself after I leave are
00:37:37.310 --> 00:37:40.170
you are you going to be okay and I said yeah I've I've done
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:42.850
all my calculations and my averages at work are
00:37:42.850 --> 00:37:45.790
completely fine to be able to run this house and
00:37:45.790 --> 00:37:49.170
live and all that kind of stuff and obviously you
00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:51.930
feel a little bit nervous because anything can happen and the
00:37:51.930 --> 00:37:55.390
lockdown happened a few years before that so that
00:37:55.390 --> 00:37:58.110
shows you it shows you not you were not all we
00:37:58.110 --> 00:38:01.230
don't know everything to come but me having
00:38:01.230 --> 00:38:04.430
that faith in myself and pushing myself when needed
00:38:04.430 --> 00:38:07.430
as well as knowing that the universe will take
00:38:07.430 --> 00:38:10.110
care of things and things will work out.
00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:13.250
How they're supposed to as well as me putting of course energy
00:38:13.250 --> 00:38:16.810
and effort in that will work out
00:38:16.810 --> 00:38:20.450
and a lot of people might think that's a bit risky doing something
00:38:20.450 --> 00:38:23.350
like that but I would say any business that you do
00:38:23.350 --> 00:38:26.530
is a risk but if you put in the effort then it
00:38:26.530 --> 00:38:29.210
will usually all work out I don't know
00:38:29.210 --> 00:38:32.470
if that sounds a bit too black and white but no it
00:38:32.470 --> 00:38:35.330
makes sense yeah when I
00:38:35.330 --> 00:38:38.310
first moved out of my parents place I kind of had like
00:38:38.310 --> 00:38:41.450
a similar fear like do i make enough money to
00:38:41.450 --> 00:38:47.530
pay rent and buy myself food like am i gonna be okay and at that time when i
00:38:47.530 --> 00:38:53.790
first moved out of my parents place i had like a job at a fast food restaurant
00:38:53.790 --> 00:38:59.430
so i technically had like more security because i had a paycheck but.
00:38:59.944 --> 00:39:04.284
When I became fully freelance, that was another leap of faith,
00:39:04.464 --> 00:39:06.904
which is what I'm guessing you're describing.
00:39:07.124 --> 00:39:10.224
Because when you moved out, was all of your income from modeling?
00:39:10.604 --> 00:39:18.124
Well, basically, I moved out to my new house with my dad for a few years because
00:39:18.124 --> 00:39:21.584
he was going to move out when he retired to live abroad.
00:39:21.944 --> 00:39:26.844
So he was only going to live with me for one year of this new house. That's mine.
00:39:27.004 --> 00:39:31.044
But then the lockdown happened. And so he stayed here for three years due to
00:39:31.044 --> 00:39:34.524
not being able to get abroad because obviously, you know, you weren't to get
00:39:34.524 --> 00:39:36.044
flights as easy and such.
00:39:36.204 --> 00:39:39.484
But I've always had modeling as my full-time job.
00:39:39.624 --> 00:39:45.764
I've not actually done another job, only like a day or something in a job and not enjoying it.
00:39:45.884 --> 00:39:50.524
Like I worked one day in a kebab house and I done terribly because I couldn't
00:39:50.524 --> 00:39:53.944
tell the difference between the different kebab names being plant-based.
00:39:55.324 --> 00:39:59.724
Wow. Thanks for clarifying that. I think I maybe didn't understand it at first,
00:39:59.884 --> 00:40:01.884
but yeah, I know that totally makes sense.
00:40:02.744 --> 00:40:09.524
Yeah. So it did feel, I wouldn't say even more nervous, but having no job before
00:40:09.524 --> 00:40:13.624
and starting the modeling and then eventually getting to a full-time freelance
00:40:13.624 --> 00:40:16.884
job, basically knowing, okay, am I going to be all right?
00:40:16.944 --> 00:40:20.344
Because I've never had another job before and this is my job,
00:40:20.484 --> 00:40:22.164
if that makes sense. Yeah.
00:40:23.204 --> 00:40:26.884
So it was a different challenge, but still similar vibes to yours,
00:40:26.884 --> 00:40:31.524
because being a freelancer, you can't predict everything, but some months are
00:40:31.524 --> 00:40:33.744
way better than others. So it does balance out.
00:40:34.324 --> 00:40:37.984
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It sounds like your dad was really supportive.
00:40:38.224 --> 00:40:43.304
And was he concerned about your career path?
00:40:44.451 --> 00:40:49.071
He was always very supportive of it. And like he even as a, you know,
00:40:49.211 --> 00:40:53.591
as a, well, it may sound weird to say, but if I had an art nude photo I liked,
00:40:53.611 --> 00:40:57.671
I would show him and he'd say, that looks really lovely, looks artistic, I love the shapes.
00:40:57.871 --> 00:41:01.631
So he would see it as an actual, you know, an artistic point of view.
00:41:02.331 --> 00:41:06.951
Whereas if I showed it to my mum, she would say, I don't want to see that,
00:41:07.051 --> 00:41:09.071
I don't want to see your bum, I don't want to see that.
00:41:09.471 --> 00:41:12.611
And even if I sent a laundry photo to her, she would say, oh,
00:41:12.711 --> 00:41:15.731
I don't want to see your bum, or she would say something.
00:41:15.911 --> 00:41:22.031
So she wasn't really as supportive of it where he was, which probably sounds quite strange.
00:41:22.971 --> 00:41:28.531
Well, as another fellow freelance model, to me, it personally doesn't sound strange.
00:41:28.571 --> 00:41:34.631
But I'm sure to people that are not in the industry, they might think it's strange.
00:41:34.891 --> 00:41:36.111
But no, I know what you mean.
00:41:36.611 --> 00:41:39.731
My mom at first was definitely like that.
00:41:39.731 --> 00:41:42.671
She was like you know my parents were kind
00:41:42.671 --> 00:41:45.491
of like really conservative and religious when i
00:41:45.491 --> 00:41:48.651
first started modeling they kind of were like what the
00:41:48.651 --> 00:41:51.331
fuck you know like yeah but it was a
00:41:51.331 --> 00:41:57.991
long long path for my parents to come to accepting what i did but i had i had
00:41:57.991 --> 00:42:03.471
blocked my dad on facebook for a while because he was upset about my modeling
00:42:03.471 --> 00:42:11.091
and my lifestyle and eventually like just a bunch A bunch of stuff happened in our life, and I...
00:42:12.205 --> 00:42:14.965
Kind of shared with him how the industry works and
00:42:14.965 --> 00:42:17.905
it made him more comfortable and I
00:42:17.905 --> 00:42:20.845
unblocked him on Facebook and I started letting
00:42:20.845 --> 00:42:23.525
him see some of my photos just the ones that I would
00:42:23.525 --> 00:42:26.645
post on Facebook which you know you can't
00:42:26.645 --> 00:42:29.645
post like nipple on stuff on Facebook but
00:42:29.645 --> 00:42:32.565
you could post implied nudity and so
00:42:32.565 --> 00:42:35.585
every once in a while he would like comment on
00:42:35.585 --> 00:42:38.725
one of my modeling pictures that oh this is very creative
00:42:38.725 --> 00:42:41.845
and I was like that's the exact response that
00:42:41.845 --> 00:42:44.765
I was hoping for so for for your dad
00:42:44.765 --> 00:42:48.005
to see that as creative and liking
00:42:48.005 --> 00:42:53.165
the lines and the shapes it means that he like understands what you're doing
00:42:53.165 --> 00:42:58.105
and like he doesn't think that it's some kind of like a phase or that you're
00:42:58.105 --> 00:43:02.505
acting out or that you're in it for the wrong reasons or or or that it's like
00:43:02.505 --> 00:43:05.865
some nefarious activity you know.
00:43:06.579 --> 00:43:11.879
Yeah, I'm really glad how supportive he is because usually like the male parent
00:43:11.879 --> 00:43:15.339
can be more stricter with something like that from what I've seen.
00:43:15.939 --> 00:43:21.039
So, yeah, I'm very grateful. And I did first do a modeling shoot when I was 12.
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.619
And it was like with one of those companies that try and tell you,
00:43:24.859 --> 00:43:29.039
oh, yeah, we'll take these pictures and you pay for them and we'll put you in
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.799
our agency and we'll help find you work.
00:43:31.959 --> 00:43:36.059
But it was a scam, you see, that I'm sure you've heard of that most popular scam.
00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:38.999
Oh yeah and he paid for those photos but
00:43:38.999 --> 00:43:42.099
I even felt a dodgy vibe on the day and I said like
00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:45.039
when they was asking for the payment I was saying I
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:47.879
said oh it's up to you dad because I'm not really sure if it's
00:43:47.879 --> 00:43:50.779
okay but him being a dad and wanting to
00:43:50.779 --> 00:43:53.579
you know help me out probably and think oh but she
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:56.299
wants this and paying anyway even though
00:43:56.299 --> 00:43:59.079
I wasn't sure and then him realizing oh no this is
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:02.099
a scam they word it carefully to make out that they can
00:44:02.099 --> 00:44:05.019
put you on their website and find you work when that's not
00:44:05.019 --> 00:44:08.299
how it is yeah that's my
00:44:08.299 --> 00:44:11.299
first experience with like modeling as such
00:44:11.299 --> 00:44:14.199
but that that was just obviously something to get a lot
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:17.399
of money from people yeah he ended up paying like
00:44:17.399 --> 00:44:22.039
500 pounds for the pictures and i didn't have a user and he just saw on facebook
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:29.979
for my own you know friends and you were 12 yeah wow 13 actually 12 or 13 all
00:44:29.979 --> 00:44:34.899
right still that's so young to be scamming 13-year-olds as messed up.
00:44:35.593 --> 00:44:38.613
Yeah, I've seen them in the newspaper before, these companies,
00:44:38.893 --> 00:44:41.353
and I think they're making a big crap down.
00:44:41.553 --> 00:44:44.613
But I still see some websites come up and they're like, oh, any model,
00:44:44.773 --> 00:44:48.293
we're looking for anyone of any age, be seen now.
00:44:48.473 --> 00:44:52.733
And even on the day, they'll put someone in the room that gets rejected.
00:44:52.953 --> 00:44:56.533
Like someone will come out and say, oh, you didn't make it. And the person will
00:44:56.533 --> 00:44:57.633
walk away a little upset.
00:44:57.853 --> 00:45:02.373
But then when they're actually telling the people to pay, they're saying, oh, come in the room.
00:45:02.733 --> 00:45:06.573
So, you know, it's already suspicious. why would you reject him in front of
00:45:06.573 --> 00:45:09.513
everyone why wouldn't you reject and reject him in the room.
00:45:11.393 --> 00:45:14.333
Yeah so that was crazy and I hope more people
00:45:14.333 --> 00:45:17.033
know about that because there was a friend of mine that said oh
00:45:17.033 --> 00:45:19.853
I'm gonna get into it a few quite a few years
00:45:19.853 --> 00:45:22.993
ago and I told her look I've been modeling for a while that that's
00:45:22.993 --> 00:45:25.833
not I don't think that's right I think that's a scam if they're asking for
00:45:25.833 --> 00:45:28.873
pay it's wrong they said oh no they chose me they
00:45:28.873 --> 00:45:31.633
don't accept everyone and I said okay so i believe what you
00:45:31.633 --> 00:45:34.313
want because that's not true and they never spoke to
00:45:34.313 --> 00:45:37.253
me after probably because you know they realized that
00:45:37.253 --> 00:45:40.193
i was right and they didn't really want to you know admit
00:45:40.193 --> 00:45:42.993
admit what happened but i wasn't there
00:45:42.993 --> 00:45:45.913
to coin fingers i just wanted to help them of course because
00:45:45.913 --> 00:45:48.733
i experienced that myself and it's good
00:45:48.733 --> 00:45:51.673
to be aware yeah there are many modeling
00:45:51.673 --> 00:45:56.113
agencies in england that are actually real agencies of course if you want to
00:45:56.113 --> 00:46:00.593
find any actual ones everyone there's a model directory website i know where
00:46:00.593 --> 00:46:06.793
you can search for all of them and it's called models or what is it called slash
00:46:06.793 --> 00:46:08.953
agency slash maybe you know it,
00:46:09.673 --> 00:46:13.053
you know i think i've heard of it but i haven't like.
00:46:14.357 --> 00:46:18.977
Signed up for it or anything like that. I've not signed up as such,
00:46:19.117 --> 00:46:22.617
but it's good to search like in different countries and see how many agencies
00:46:22.617 --> 00:46:25.517
are there because they only have legitimate ones.
00:46:25.757 --> 00:46:30.037
So if you get an inquiry from someone saying, oh yeah, we can bring you for
00:46:30.037 --> 00:46:32.277
a portfolio testers shoot or something,
00:46:32.777 --> 00:46:37.237
then just probably, if they're not on there, don't say yes, just go to the source
00:46:37.237 --> 00:46:41.617
and you can start applying and, you know, see who's interested.
00:46:42.297 --> 00:46:45.137
Yeah when i was around 20 or so
00:46:45.137 --> 00:46:49.117
i fell for a similar scam where they wanted
00:46:49.117 --> 00:46:52.057
to charge me like 400 to like start a
00:46:52.057 --> 00:46:54.737
portfolio with them and then they're like oh but
00:46:54.737 --> 00:46:58.177
you're gonna make your money back with the first booking and
00:46:58.177 --> 00:47:01.017
then there was no bookings of course yeah that's
00:47:01.017 --> 00:47:04.077
what they said to me as well oh you make your money back that's only
00:47:04.077 --> 00:47:06.917
a small amount i did make it back years
00:47:06.917 --> 00:47:10.037
later but not because of them right yeah
00:47:10.037 --> 00:47:12.817
like if if you have faith in like
00:47:12.817 --> 00:47:15.837
the models that you're signing if they're gonna make their money
00:47:15.837 --> 00:47:19.057
back on the first booking why do you just not charge
00:47:19.057 --> 00:47:25.597
them an initial portfolio fee right like yeah usually every agency just takes
00:47:25.597 --> 00:47:31.037
a small cut from each job yeah that's the same with like acting casting agencies
00:47:31.037 --> 00:47:37.497
as well yeah yeah totally so I have another question and this is like.
00:47:38.619 --> 00:47:43.659
Kind of unrelated, but since your name is Kitty, I wanted to ask you, do you like cats?
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:50.419
Yes, I do. I've had a cat called Harry since I was 12 and he's still around.
00:47:50.419 --> 00:47:56.159
He's just sitting next to my laptop right now and trying to tap me and trying to come up my lap.
00:47:56.279 --> 00:48:00.239
I've been trying to move him because his little bell may make a bit too much noise.
00:48:00.739 --> 00:48:05.219
Aw, I haven't heard it at all, by the way. I think I saw your cat when I was
00:48:05.219 --> 00:48:07.859
scrolling on your pictures today. Is he black and white?
00:48:08.619 --> 00:48:11.839
Yes, he is. God, that's awesome.
00:48:12.139 --> 00:48:15.359
But that is partly why I named myself Kitty.
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:20.419
It was Jade Kitty when I had a page called, I think it was actually Jade Kitty
00:48:20.419 --> 00:48:22.939
Dawson-saurus, like when I'd done the site modeling.
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:25.719
So very assine or emo name at the time.
00:48:26.259 --> 00:48:31.659
And then when I was starting to be a professional model, I changed my model name to Kitty Dawson.
00:48:31.659 --> 00:48:34.359
Yeah yeah and that
00:48:34.359 --> 00:48:37.599
sounds realistic enough for somebody to believe that
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:40.419
it's your real name too and i love it i mean
00:48:40.419 --> 00:48:44.039
because also like your facial features are
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.779
you have cat-like facial features you've got
00:48:46.779 --> 00:48:49.479
the big eyes you have the cute face and like
00:48:49.479 --> 00:48:53.019
a button nose so i feel like your modeling name really
00:48:53.019 --> 00:48:55.659
does emulate like your your look as a
00:48:55.659 --> 00:48:58.519
model well thank you that's really
00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.159
nice to hear a lot of photographers say I have an
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:04.039
elfin look so I feel like the cat and elf
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.239
and stuff kind of connect don't they yeah I
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:10.179
guess when I when I think elfin I think like I
00:49:10.179 --> 00:49:13.079
got like a small chin and a small nose but like
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.699
big ears I don't think you have big ears yeah
00:49:16.699 --> 00:49:22.059
I've got some elf ears but I put them on top of my ears yeah I recently packed
00:49:22.059 --> 00:49:25.779
them for a shoot I'm doing because I've got some shoots coming up in London
00:49:25.779 --> 00:49:30.639
this week and one of them's a big cosplay shoot and part of it I'm going to
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:34.579
be an elf fairy type character that sounds fun.
00:49:35.738 --> 00:49:43.518
Do you do a lot of cosplay? It's more kind of like sexy or glamorous cosplay than anything.
00:49:43.778 --> 00:49:48.618
But I have had shoots where it is more like cosplay, which is,
00:49:48.858 --> 00:49:51.918
I don't know if I would say proper or if that's the right word.
00:49:52.098 --> 00:49:58.578
But being an elf or doing Red Riding Hood or an anime character would be more
00:49:58.578 --> 00:50:00.558
on the lines of real cosplay to me.
00:50:00.718 --> 00:50:04.118
Whereas, well, maybe I sound rude saying that.
00:50:04.118 --> 00:50:07.438
I'm not I'm not trying to say the other cosplay isn't but obviously if
00:50:07.438 --> 00:50:10.418
I'm doing the real character they I want them to look as
00:50:10.418 --> 00:50:13.518
specific as they can so I've got so many outfits
00:50:13.518 --> 00:50:16.538
for those things and I do get a lot of cosplay
00:50:16.538 --> 00:50:19.498
bookings in the year over time but
00:50:19.498 --> 00:50:23.398
it's more a variation so some photographers
00:50:23.398 --> 00:50:26.298
may book me fashion to lingerie or fashion to
00:50:26.298 --> 00:50:29.438
art nude and some may even just book for
00:50:29.438 --> 00:50:32.538
fashion so when I do get a cosplay shoot I'm quite excited
00:50:32.538 --> 00:50:35.758
about it because even though there's a less room
00:50:35.758 --> 00:50:38.818
in my suitcase for other stuff because of all the cosplay outfits
00:50:38.818 --> 00:50:41.838
it's fun to create these characters and do different
00:50:41.838 --> 00:50:44.718
creative looks of makeup I think that's
00:50:44.718 --> 00:50:49.558
why I enjoy shoots the most when I'm accessorizing and doing different makeup
00:50:49.558 --> 00:50:53.778
and creating these different looks even if it's a fashion shoot where you're
00:50:53.778 --> 00:50:59.438
doing some elaborate makeup in it yeah that's great yeah a A lot of traveling
00:50:59.438 --> 00:51:03.418
models just do like very basic makeup looks,
00:51:03.578 --> 00:51:08.238
so I do think that having like a wider range to be able to do more unique makeup
00:51:08.238 --> 00:51:10.958
looks is, that's a good skill.
00:51:11.218 --> 00:51:13.818
I mean, makeup is hard. It's like art, you know?
00:51:14.556 --> 00:51:19.956
Yeah, definitely. And I more often do natural and more classical looks because
00:51:19.956 --> 00:51:23.936
that's what a lot of photographers seem to prefer because it can suit a variation
00:51:23.936 --> 00:51:28.836
of ideas as well as waking up at like five or six in the morning to do a look
00:51:28.836 --> 00:51:30.536
that the photographer might not want.
00:51:30.616 --> 00:51:35.536
It can be a waste of time. So it's always good to clarify if it's too much.
00:51:35.636 --> 00:51:39.476
But usually they will tell you if, you know, what they're looking for or if
00:51:39.476 --> 00:51:41.156
they don't want you to wear certain makeup.
00:51:41.776 --> 00:51:44.836
I've got one shoot this week that told me to wear no makeup,
00:51:45.136 --> 00:51:48.116
which I don't often hear that. So, okay, that'll be interesting.
00:51:49.096 --> 00:51:52.456
Yeah. Yeah. Every once in a while, I get somebody that requests that.
00:51:52.676 --> 00:51:59.616
I still put a very faint amount of foundation and stuff. Just, you know.
00:52:00.676 --> 00:52:02.076
Yeah. They are really lined up.
00:52:02.356 --> 00:52:06.056
Or aren't they? Just a natural look that doesn't look like makeup. Yeah.
00:52:07.176 --> 00:52:11.836
With your fantasy and cosplay outfits, do you make all that stuff yourself?
00:52:12.916 --> 00:52:17.116
I don't. I would love to be able to experiment with it, but I don't feel like
00:52:17.116 --> 00:52:20.656
I have a lot of time because obviously these people are pure stylists,
00:52:20.716 --> 00:52:23.396
how much hours they go into it, they're sewing.
00:52:23.696 --> 00:52:30.136
But I usually source my outfits from online, like Amazon and different websites.
00:52:30.136 --> 00:52:33.376
Sites and I recently found a new site that
00:52:33.376 --> 00:52:36.236
does a lot of gothic and different cosplay outfits I'm
00:52:36.236 --> 00:52:39.896
not sure where they're getting them from but it's surely not because I've
00:52:39.896 --> 00:52:42.636
checked yeah yeah I found a lot of
00:52:42.636 --> 00:52:46.736
nice things and even it didn't just come with the outfit it came with like a
00:52:46.736 --> 00:52:50.976
bag of accessories to go with it so everything you saw in the picture you got
00:52:50.976 --> 00:52:56.756
and I thought wow that's amazing that's awesome yeah that's really handy I've
00:52:56.756 --> 00:53:01.296
made a couple costumes over the course of my life, but personally,
00:53:01.876 --> 00:53:04.856
cosplay isn't really, like, my thing.
00:53:04.856 --> 00:53:10.216
I do think it's neat, but I think any cosplay outfit I've ever accumulated was because I
00:53:10.613 --> 00:53:14.673
I came up with a Halloween costume one time and then I just kept it for photo
00:53:14.673 --> 00:53:16.833
shoots in case somebody wanted to shoot me in it.
00:53:17.613 --> 00:53:22.593
Yeah, of course. That's a good idea. Yeah. I don't wear Halloween costumes anymore
00:53:22.593 --> 00:53:27.553
because I don't really go to parties as much like I used to when I was a teenager.
00:53:27.553 --> 00:53:31.713
But I have so many alternative and cosplay outfits for shoots.
00:53:31.973 --> 00:53:35.673
Yeah. I got gifted them from people or bought some of them.
00:53:35.773 --> 00:53:39.093
And I thought, oh, it'd been handy for a shoot one day or I would like to shoot in that.
00:53:39.093 --> 00:53:43.353
And quite a lot of them I've not shot in yet. So I have been recently making
00:53:43.353 --> 00:53:48.433
a fantasy and cosplay casting on Purple Port to let people know about all these
00:53:48.433 --> 00:53:51.593
outfits I have, because most of them I'm not shotting.
00:53:52.433 --> 00:53:56.093
Obviously, there's a wide range I have, but there's so many that I haven't because
00:53:56.093 --> 00:53:58.633
not all photographers prefer cosplay.
00:53:58.813 --> 00:54:01.973
It's quite a small amount of photographers who book me for that.
00:54:02.153 --> 00:54:06.353
But I still have all the outfits, if that makes sense. Yeah.
00:54:06.613 --> 00:54:13.833
And if you enjoy doing that, it gives you like there's so much more like what's the word spark in it.
00:54:13.893 --> 00:54:17.353
If it's something that you are really creatively invested in,
00:54:17.413 --> 00:54:21.233
it sounds exciting that you have all of these outfits that you want to shoot.
00:54:22.217 --> 00:54:25.397
Yeah, definitely. I hope I get to shoot with them more.
00:54:25.537 --> 00:54:31.097
But since there's a cosplay shoot this week, I'm going to pack quite a few things.
00:54:31.097 --> 00:54:34.857
And I'm going to pack this big Gengar Pokemon little onesie thing.
00:54:35.417 --> 00:54:39.877
It's cut at the thigh, so it's like a bit sexy. And it just looks so amazing.
00:54:40.217 --> 00:54:44.997
But when you're a traveling model, it can be hard to fit in proper cosplay outfits
00:54:44.997 --> 00:54:46.537
because of the suitcase room.
00:54:46.537 --> 00:54:49.457
Oh yeah i fitted in what i can as
00:54:49.457 --> 00:54:52.917
well as smaller cosplay like college girl and things like
00:54:52.917 --> 00:54:58.217
that so there's a variation of small skimpy ones as well as two main ones like
00:54:58.217 --> 00:55:03.737
red riding hood and the kind of sexy gengar which can still work for fashion
00:55:03.737 --> 00:55:08.077
i wouldn't say that someone couldn't go out in it it's you know safe for work
00:55:08.077 --> 00:55:12.717
enough for sure oh yeah yeah that's great Yeah.
00:55:13.377 --> 00:55:18.717
So we're coming up onto our hour. And I do want to ask you, do you have upcoming
00:55:18.717 --> 00:55:23.177
tours or anything else that you would like to promote on the podcast?
00:55:24.396 --> 00:55:29.936
Coming towards the end of the year and I have some new tours for 2026 that I'm planning.
00:55:30.416 --> 00:55:37.156
They're mainly in England at the moment, but in 2026, I'll be off to Austria
00:55:37.156 --> 00:55:39.456
at some point for the first time to Vienna.
00:55:39.756 --> 00:55:43.376
I'm not sure about the dates yet, but it should be early winter.
00:55:43.896 --> 00:55:47.396
I'm going to Somerset in England in January.
00:55:48.036 --> 00:55:53.216
And usually in the kind of February to April period, I go to a range of European
00:55:53.216 --> 00:55:59.636
countries, and I'm looking to expand to Italy as well, as well as go back to Switzerland.
00:55:59.636 --> 00:56:04.376
So I've not set all my dates yet, everyone, but there's a lot of lovely places
00:56:04.376 --> 00:56:07.276
I'll be going to as well as returning to.
00:56:07.536 --> 00:56:11.816
But of course, the big one is in February or March, I'll be off to Australia
00:56:11.816 --> 00:56:14.176
and going to a few cities.
00:56:15.156 --> 00:56:18.916
That's awesome. So I'm guessing you'll be going to Sydney, but do you know where
00:56:18.916 --> 00:56:20.756
else in Australia you'll be going?
00:56:21.736 --> 00:56:26.336
Yeah, Sydney is going to be the first stop. I'm planning to go to, I think, Brisbane.
00:56:27.236 --> 00:56:31.896
And there was, I think, one or two other cities. But I thought maybe keep it
00:56:31.896 --> 00:56:35.016
to two cities first because it's my first time.
00:56:35.156 --> 00:56:37.696
But I'm kind of tempted to add like Adelaide in.
00:56:37.936 --> 00:56:41.776
I was thinking of Perth, but that is quite a while away from Sydney.
00:56:41.916 --> 00:56:43.696
So I'm not sure. I'm tempted.
00:56:44.416 --> 00:56:49.336
I've never been to Perth just because it's just way over on the other side of the continent.
00:56:49.596 --> 00:56:54.336
But there were some nature locations that were close to there that I really wanted to go to.
00:56:55.276 --> 00:57:01.236
Yeah. Well, maybe you'll go next time. There's so many... The people there are so nice and...
00:57:02.737 --> 00:57:09.017
It is, I mean, to me, it feels very similar to the United States as far as, like,
00:57:09.837 --> 00:57:15.617
people's lifestyles and the kind of stuff they talk about and the modeling rates
00:57:15.617 --> 00:57:18.537
are similar to the United States, which,
00:57:18.817 --> 00:57:21.977
by the way, I don't know if you were planning to come to the United States,
00:57:22.077 --> 00:57:27.217
but the rates are good out here, which would be maybe the only great reason
00:57:27.217 --> 00:57:28.997
to come out here, aside from...
00:57:29.248 --> 00:57:34.708
Some of the major locations are awesome. Yeah, I was planning to for a while, actually.
00:57:34.848 --> 00:57:39.788
I was going to go to Tennessee and California, but obviously the visa can take
00:57:39.788 --> 00:57:43.348
so many months to get verified and you need to have a really sound application.
00:57:43.508 --> 00:57:47.108
So I'm working on it this year and early next year.
00:57:47.228 --> 00:57:49.868
And when I've got all the things, I think, okay, tick, tick,
00:57:50.008 --> 00:57:53.048
tick, this is enough for the application, then I'll apply.
00:57:53.248 --> 00:57:59.528
It's just I don't drive, so I have to mainly stick to the public transport states which isn't as many.
00:58:00.468 --> 00:58:05.788
Yeah that I mean I if I were to recommend a place in the U.S.
00:58:05.888 --> 00:58:13.108
To go to with lots of photographers and a good public transportation I would say New York for sure.
00:58:13.328 --> 00:58:19.088
I was thinking that too I don't know anywhere else that would I just know New
00:58:19.088 --> 00:58:24.608
York has a subway so yeah but I don't know any photographers there just yet
00:58:24.608 --> 00:58:27.368
but of course there's directories I can look into.
00:58:27.728 --> 00:58:33.248
Yeah. I know a lot in California, but obviously I don't know how the transportation's there.
00:58:33.568 --> 00:58:39.268
Well, if it's of any help, I can say that the first five years of my traveling
00:58:39.268 --> 00:58:41.308
modeling, I couldn't rent cars.
00:58:41.368 --> 00:58:47.028
So I had to plan out like my shoots as far as like,
00:58:47.188 --> 00:58:50.388
am I going to take the bus or am I going to take a cab or
00:58:50.388 --> 00:58:53.508
is a photographer going to pick me up and drop me off and a
00:58:53.508 --> 00:58:56.788
lot of times photographers are willing to pick you up it's not
00:58:56.788 --> 00:58:59.688
too far away so if you're able to plan your shoots out
00:58:59.688 --> 00:59:02.588
in a way that they're not too far away from each other
00:59:02.588 --> 00:59:07.528
and then from one city to the next just take a greyhound or a like a bus or
00:59:07.528 --> 00:59:13.448
a train from one major city to the next and it's totally possible okay no that's
00:59:13.448 --> 00:59:17.228
good to hear that there's still possibilities because I've got some American
00:59:17.228 --> 00:59:20.948
friends and some of them are taking like taxis everywhere they go.
00:59:21.148 --> 00:59:24.648
And I thought that may add up a lot. I was a bit concerned. Yeah, no, that's...
00:59:25.549 --> 00:59:29.849
You don't have to take taxis or Ubers or is there Uber in the UK?
00:59:30.529 --> 00:59:33.949
Yeah, there is. Right. Yeah. You don't have to take Ubers everywhere.
00:59:33.949 --> 00:59:37.209
If you plan ahead far enough, you know, it is possible.
00:59:37.349 --> 00:59:41.949
But yeah, I mean, you'll figure it out. If you come to the US,
00:59:41.949 --> 00:59:43.249
I'm sure you'll have a great trip.
00:59:44.049 --> 00:59:48.589
Yeah, I definitely will. And I'm sure it will be in the pipeline for next year,
00:59:48.729 --> 00:59:52.509
maybe the year after at a push, because once I've got the Australian visa,
00:59:52.529 --> 00:59:55.709
it's good to go there a few times in the year so I'm not
00:59:55.709 --> 00:59:58.589
sure if I can balance Europe Australia and you and
00:59:58.589 --> 01:00:01.589
the US in the same year that sounds like a bit
01:00:01.589 --> 01:00:04.629
of a hectic time with not enough me time to
01:00:04.629 --> 01:00:07.569
reset so I'll see how it goes maybe
01:00:07.569 --> 01:00:11.429
I can fit it in comfortably cool right
01:00:11.429 --> 01:00:14.569
on well that's awesome well thank you
01:00:14.569 --> 01:00:19.369
Kitty for taking the time to do this podcast episode with me I've had a really
01:00:19.369 --> 01:00:24.109
great time getting to know you better and learning about what it's like modeling
01:00:24.109 --> 01:00:29.709
in the UK and in Europe and in your past experiences and your crazy photo shoot
01:00:29.709 --> 01:00:31.549
stories. It's been a fun episode.
01:00:32.169 --> 01:00:36.989
Yeah, it has for sure. And I'm sure you know, we could talk all day about this
01:00:36.989 --> 01:00:42.109
kind of stuff and the logistics and how to get around Europe and all that interesting stuff.
01:00:42.369 --> 01:00:45.289
But we'll save and save more for maybe next time.
01:00:45.849 --> 01:00:47.869
Yeah, sounds good. Cool.
01:00:48.649 --> 01:00:51.789
All right, well, I'm going to let you go, but I'll touch base with you over
01:00:51.789 --> 01:00:53.929
Instagram about, like, follow-up.
01:00:54.409 --> 01:00:58.789
Okay, great. I hope you have a great night or day wherever you are.