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Hello and welcome to Success is Never Accidental.
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I'm Lynn Payton and I'm passionate about helping leaders to get better outcomes.
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In this podcast, we explore the experiences, lessons, and thinking behind successful people from all walks of life and internet.
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Today I'm joined by Dr.
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Lily Cooper, a plastic surgeon, coach and thought leader whose work focuses on the human side of performance in medicine.
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During her surgical training, Lily became increasingly interested in the psychological and physiological demands placed on surgeons, and high-level attention is often given to developing self-awareness, resilience, and emotional discipline alongside technical expertise.
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Recognizing how important these factors are to performance, communication, and long-term well-being, she trained as a coach to better support surgeons and other professionals working in high-pressure environments.
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I'm looking forward to exploring her journey, what she's learned about performance under pressure, and why understanding ourselves better can make such a difference both professionally and personally.
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Lily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experiences.
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I have to say, I was fascinated when I read your article in the bulletin about the whole concept of coaching surgeons.
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But backtrack a little bit and tell me how did you even get into medicine and why choose this specialty of plastic surgery?
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Hmm, well, it was how did I get into medicine?
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I was certainly wasn't a sort of medic from childhood.
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In fact, my first undergraduate offer was to read English literature.
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And I was one of those kids that loved everything, and I really struggled to decide what I wanted to focus on.
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And ultimately, I went to Melbourne University to do a Bachelor of Arts and Sciences because it was basically the broadest degree I could find, and I have an Australian passport, and I had an amazing four years there.
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And of course, during that degree, I studied loads of different things languages, philosophy, history, and sciences, and I ended up gravitating towards anatomy and physiology majors.
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And then I chose to do medicine and had a place at Sydney and a place in Birmingham, and ultimately chose to come back to the UK because that's that's where I grew up and where my family are.
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And then I don't know, I think surgery was a very natural choice for me.
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I've always been very solutions-focused, practical.
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I always made all my own clothes and um plastics.
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I just loved, probably again, because of its breadth, because you treat people at all stages of life, from tiny babies right up to very elderly people, and anatomically it's so broad.
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You know, you treat everywhere in the body, certainly at skin level and deeper in some areas.
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And I think that was why plastics specifically appealed.
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And what made you first realize that success in surgery was much more than just being good technically?
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So I had two kind of situations that I couldn't ignore, I guess, during training.
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The first was that when I was about a second year registrar, so um for anyone who's not familiar with the surgical training pathway, you finish med school and then do foundation jobs for a couple of years, and then you do core surgical training for a couple of years, and then you apply for a specialty training programme, which is six years minimum.
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Uh, and there's lots of space to add in extra time along the way if you wanted to do research or have a baby or have a, you know, pursue a different sport or something.
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But so I'd got to second year registrar, so I'd been a doctor for six years or so, and I was working um in a centre that I loved, and I was doing well, and I was doing a microsurgical procedure to reconstruct a breast after mastectomy, uh, where you take it's called a DEP procedure, you take skin and fat from the lower abdomen and take it off, attached to an artery and vein, and then you move it up to the chest and you plumb in the artery and the vein to a local artery and vein so the tissue can live there and form a new very natural-looking breast mound, and then obviously you close up the tummy.
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Um, so I was just beavering away, joining the two ends of the artery together under a microscope, and a consultant I really respected walked behind me and said, beautiful stitching.
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And I just became really self-conscious all of a sudden and started shaking.
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And I'd never had anything like that before, and I'd certainly never had a situation where I couldn't make my body or my mind do what I wanted it to do, but the more I tried to stop, the worse it got.
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And that was my first experience of performance anxiety, and it really shook me because I didn't, I became worried it would happen again, of course it did, and no one could tell me what to do, even though when I looked around, having become sensitized to it, I saw it was really common that people would get tremors sometimes or or seem to get kind of stressed or get a brain fog or different manifestations of pressure and stress in the moment.
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And so I became very academically interested in how to manage that.
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Um, for some time I took beta blockers because that's basically what I was told to do is the only viable option.
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Um, but then I became very interested in the psychology and the physiology behind performance anxiety and how to manage it in other domains like professional music or sport or um the dramatic arts, where it's not only understood, but it's people are prepared for it, you know, in their first module at music school or whatever.
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Um, so that that interested me, and it was something I couldn't ignore.
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And then the second thing that happened a couple of years later was I had to have treatment radical chemoradiotherapy for a new cancer diagnosis.
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And coming back to work from I had a few months off because I was having regular chemo radiotherapy.
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And coming back from that to finishing training, doing the exam, balancing clinical work with what with more need than I'd had before for rest and so on.
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Again, I became aware of how much was understood in other domains around managing energy, optimising health, um, being efficient in productivity, um, which is so heavily supported in the corporate sector, but really had never been mentioned in my training anyway.
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And I became very passionate about bringing all of this understanding to a group of people who I and I extend, you know, it's not just surgeons, obviously, there are many professionals who work in really high-stakes environments on the front line, um, who can't afford in terms of time and often money, because it's not necessarily well remunerated, depending um on the situation, to find the support that they need and and I really think deserve.
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Um, so I guess that was my initial intention when I went into coaching to try and understand how can all of this wisdom that exists in other silos be accessible to everyone who could benefit from it?
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And you know, that extends beyond even clinicians and frontline workers to basically every human in the world.
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You know, if you're rich and famous, why do you get an elite team around you optimizing your every move?
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And yet every individual in the world is doing really important work.
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Why don't we all have access to that knowledge?
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That's a really, really critical question, Lily, isn't it?
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Because athletes and singers and people who actors, all of those people have support systems around not just managing the technical part of their talent or um sport or whatever, but mindset is a critical element of peak performance.
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Um, and yet we don't particularly focus on it in the professions.
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So I love that idea that it should be more commonly available.
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So tell us about some of the situations that commonly, or the themes maybe that commonly come up when you're coaching um surgeons, doctors, and other professionals, because I loved how in your bulletin, I loved your column in the bulletin, um, um just really resonated because it could have been any profession that you were dealing with, and these things seem so common, and yet what you're saying is the support for them is not at all common.
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So, what are some of the things that regularly come up?
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So I think there are three main buckets probably at the at the front end, but then of course, when you dive deeper, there's often, you know, other aspects too that people are working with.
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But the reason people come for coaching are typically either an issue around performance, so that might be a tremor.
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So I recently had a client who relies on beta blockers to manage their tremor, uh, is getting to the end of training and felt that they couldn't ethically step up to a consultant role while they needed beta blockers to be able to do their job.
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Because as a registrar, you can always call the boss if you forgot them or there was a worldwide shortage of them or you became tolerant to them over time, someone could come and do do it for you or with you.
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But when you're the boss, who can you call?
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And so they were very anxious, they actually said, I think I need to leave surgery not because I don't love it, not because I haven't, you know, hit all of the technical markers, but I just don't feel I can continue to practice at the next level up with a tremor that I can't manage on my own.
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Um, but also issues with public speaking or issues in interviews and being able to access all of that amazing experience and those answers that judgment in on the mo, you know, on on the on the in the spotlight.
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And the same as well in vivo exams.
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So um there are entrance and exit exams as surgeons which are face-to-face, and many people struggle to pass them, and you only get four goes, and then you're not allowed to take them anymore.
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So they become increasingly high pressure.
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Um, so that kind of self-management under pressure, um, building structures around regulation and um integrating rest and also being able to perform on the spot in different situations is one.
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Another big one, and it's really unsexy to talk about, but is I guess what you would call productivity.
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So, how do you, in the face of a busy job that is unpredictable already, how do you manage not only the expected extra academic stuff, so writing papers that you have to do to pass the year, studying for exams, keeping up your clinical knowledge, but also the kind of day-to-day admin logging procedures in your e-log book, sending assessments to your supervisors, organising lists, replying to emails.
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How do you integrate that in a way that doesn't just completely encroach on everything else?
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Um, and as efficiently as possible so that you can do what you need to do, choose what's important to you, um, and still have a life outside surgery, hobbies, creative endeavours, and so on.
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And then the third kind of bucket, if you like, is often around self-confidence, a sense of self-worth, understanding who you are, giving yourself permission, even to be a person, an individual with dreams and strengths and areas for growth, and not just a kind of cookie-cutter surgical trainee in what we're all told that should look like.
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Um, a lot of people come saying, you know, I've got everything on paper, but I feel completely empty.
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I can't remember the last time I had fun.
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I can't remember the last time I felt at peace or contented.
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How do I access that again?
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And it's absolutely interesting because those are similar to all the kinds of scenarios that I see in coaching in health and social care as well.
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Um let's backtrack to the one you said about the performance management, and because that's common for teachers, for people in all kinds of disciplines, and for people in corporate life as well.
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How do you be more effective, more efficient without compromising the quality of the work that you do?
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What are some of the things that you have found are most helpful in that whole time management, energy management space?
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So I think there are two really important concepts here.
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One is that our time is not equal.
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So we all have kind of cognitive golden hours depending on our chronotype, depending on our lifestyle, depending on our preference.
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And that time should be defended for really important or really difficult work.
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There's no point wasting it on standing on the sidelines of a football match or ticking off your to-do list when you could be really advancing something that needs all you've got cognitively.
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And then the other concept is that your tasks also aren't equal, and we have a psychological bias to always prioritize things that are urgent.
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And I'm sure that many of your listeners will have heard of the Eisenhower Matrix, which Stephen Covey so eloquently um described in his book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
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But essentially it's a two by two of urgent, non-urgent, important, non-important.
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And the urgent, important stuff you don't need to worry about because you'll always do it, because it matters to you and it's urgent, so it will always sort of take the front line due to a psychological effect called the mere urgency effect.
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But it's the important, not urgent stuff that doesn't have a deadline that relates maybe relates to your health, or a hobby that you want to do, or a paper you've been desperate to write, or a book you're trying to write, or time with loved ones, or you know, things that are really that really matter and you miss them and you feel ashamed if you don't pursue them, but they just never seem to get an edge in.
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Um, and then he talks about managing the bottom row, you know, the the important sorry, the not important but urgent, which are the things that do they have to happen, but they don't necessarily need you to do them.
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And considering how you can delegate or outsource those and increasingly automation could solve that problem.
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But there's often a lot of self-management involved when you are delegating to others in a leadership capacity and how you manage that within yourself.
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Uh, and then there's the not urgent, not important, and how you discipline yourself to not check social media or not look at your emails on the hour every hour and you know get lost in nonsense that doesn't matter.
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And you just delete those, yeah.
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You don't go there.
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What's really interesting, I find, is um I study with Nido Kwibin at High Point University in North Carolina um at one stage a few years back.
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And while he loved that matrix, he also said there's an even more simple one, and it starts with a stop doing list.
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So stop pleasing people, stop saying yes.
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As you say, stop the obvious things like social media, but I find stop saying yes is really, really critical because most people want to please their boss, their colleagues, their family, their friends, whatever.
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But sometimes when we learn to actually stop, and again, Covey's great about don't react, respond.
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So take a deep breath and say, now hold on a wee minute.
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If I do this, what purpose does it serve?
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Who does it serve?
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But bringing it back because we all have a responsibility as leaders to serve ourselves, because when we're in full gear and when we're optimizing our energy, our mindset, the team flows and the team benefits and the family benefits.
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So learning to do things and to stop doing things that don't serve us is really, really critical.
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And another thing he said is find out what you're doing that is actually filling you up and making you feel fulfilled, and do more of it.
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So that's the thing, like the time with family, like the walking in nature, like the hobbies, like the academic paper that gives you a huge buzz whenever you commit all that wonderful knowledge and experience into some sort of mechanism where you're actually helping and benefiting others.
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And for you, it must be a joy when you see your column in print to know that while you're coaching one-to-one, you're helping one person, and hopefully, there's a ripple effect.
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But when you have that monthly column, you don't know how many people, Lily, are actually benefiting from your advice, so that must give you a real buzz.
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Yeah, it does, and I'm sure you feel exactly the same with your amazing work and congratulations on your 80th podcast, which I think I read.
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Yes, goes out, it actually went out today, which is incredible, and again, that was just another mechanism to try and reach more people because whether we're in surgery or social work or um uh juvenile justice or or just leaders in in businesses, uh, the advice is all the same.
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We just have to mold it a bit for the particular environment or the particular target audience.
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But tell me, uh thinking back now, what what separates those, what kind of mindset separates those people who stay resilient and stay purposeful and committed from those who feel drained and ultimately maybe actually walk away from the profession?
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What do you think is the difference in mindset?
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Oh, I'm sure there are, I mean, this is a multifaceted topic, I'm sure, but I do think there are some that are particularly significant.
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Um I think that have many surgeons, and I think it's true for many high-performing professionals in different worlds, have quite a tendency to have quite a fixed mindset.
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Um, a lot of people are quite perfectionist and have been rewarded throughout their life for being bright, doing well, bringing home certificates, and it can become very difficult to learn to fail and to grow.
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And I think that's even more so when the subject of a failure is a human because it feels so unacceptable.
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And it's interesting, having trained in the corporate coaching world, often people say, Yeah, well, you know, what's the worst that can happen?
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No one's gonna die, are they?
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And that's a very different world.
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And it's still true that holding yourself to perfection as an outcome of choice can be a big problem for performance and can make feedback very hard to hear.
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And of course, Kristen's Kristen Neff's work's fascinating around the impact on learning and growth and resilience of self-compassion versus self-criticism.
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Because I think often, unfortunately, the incoming critique within the workplace can echo our own internal inner critic, in my experience, anyway, of how the surgical world still works.
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It's very judgmental, it's very overt, um, and it can be quite difficult to break that fixed mindset.
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Um, so I think that's one that can be hugely impactful, if very difficult, to work on sometimes.
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Um, I think another one is a kind of scarcity, abundance, or um sufficiency, insufficiency, depending on what wording you prefer, shift.
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You know, we know that if people are feeling anxious, if they are in an insufficiency mindset, they find it harder to plan for the future, they're more likely to go for an immediate reward that's smaller, uh, they may behave more defensively, they may be psychologically less flexible.
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And that has a big knock-on in terms of teams and team growth and performance.
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Um, again, it can be quite hard to see the abundance in what is just a very strapped workplace.
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And again, I'm sure this is true for many of your listeners.
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Um, and often, and it's our natural for evolutionary reasons, it's our natural bias to have a negative attentional bias to threat, again, for very sensible reasons in our evolutionary past.
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But um, I think very actively shifting that towards a positive bias, no, you know, gratitude.
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Practice, reflecting on your strengths, remembering the times it's gone well, or remembering the times that hasn't, but you have had a process where you've, as a team or as an individual, achieved the best outcome you could have in the circumstances.
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As habits, I think those are very helpful to start to consider.
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Yeah, and I'm sure you do, like I do, try and lay a strengths-based foundation in every coaching session.
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You know, so I always ask people to do some prep for coaching.
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And the first question is tell me five things that have gone really well or five success stories since the last time we talked, because there is that habit to always look at, well, that's done, what's next?
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And and and we spent more time agonizing over something that didn't go just as well as we hoped than we ever do thinking about now.
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Why did that go well?
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Oh, yes, it went well because I planned for it, because I had the skill set, because I asked for help, you know, all of the things.
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So a lot of times we we study why did something go so well, so that we can learn from that and do more of it, as opposed to what happened there that went wrong, because that's where we tend to spend too much time and energy.
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So, some of those day-to-day practices, if we can get those disciplines in place where maybe people do a gratitude journal or they reflect at the end of every day about, and I think your brain loves numbers, doesn't it?
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You know, three places today where I added some value, you know, and just changing the language patterns and the self-questioning can be so important.
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You you you wrote a beautiful article about coping with adverse events, and you made reference to that um just earlier in this interview.
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What are some of the things that the team and peers and others can do to help following an adverse event?
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Yeah, I loved writing that article, and I did it alongside a really committed and talented um, well, in this case, three co-authors, but they represent a team and an extended network across the UK who are doing amazing work alongside the Royal College of Surgeons of England.
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Um, and I cited a large survey that was um performed, and the senior author was Kevin Turner, who's a consultant urological surgeon down in Bournemouth in Bournemouth.
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And they revealed that I mean, adverse events are part of surgical practice, aren't they?
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Whether they're complications or errors, or most commonly a mixture probably of the two.
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And what they found was that 43% of surgeons didn't speak to anyone after an adverse event, and less than 3% are professional, yet 43% of them experienced increased anxiety, 11% were using alcohol more, a huge number of them had sleep issues as a result.
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There are major knock-ons, and I don't think as surgeons we're very good at seeking support.
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I think that's also an issue, not just at an individual level, but at a cultural level.
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So I think in answer to your question, what can we do as peers or as teams, I think the first thing is as a culture, uh try to speak more about normal events, you know, share vulnerability where it feels safe to do so.
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That's one of the main things I'm trying to do with the column is just increase discussion around experiences.
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And I think if senior leaders, senior surgeons are comfortable sharing their experience, it can be hugely empowering to those who look up to them.
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And again, that's just true, isn't it, across all teams.
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Um, more specifically, the support team are looking to integrate peer support within departments where separate to any sanction or any learning from an adverse event, there is just a peer-to-peer human-to-human check-in, or multiple often, to see how that person is behind the clinical mask.
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And I'm not sure, and in contrast to coaching, where we often talk about the level one, you know, your personal response to something a client might share, for instance, still maintaining a professional affect and way of being, but actually acknowledging that as separate and having a coach yourself, the same is true in therapy.
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I think in surgery, again, we're encouraged to be professional.
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It's you know, we are assessed on that in many ways.
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But there's I don't feel there's often the same acknowledgement of the human being and making space for that person to process emotions, to reflect, um, to feel connected to others.
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And so what they're trying to do is create a network where it becomes the norm, you know, if you're approached by a peer, it's not because you've done something wrong, it's because that's what's done here and it's part of the process, it's confidential and it's separate to sanction.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.279
Um, and I'm sure that that will be a and has been shown to be a very powerful maneuver.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:26.000
So that's fabulous to know that there is a national kind of programme now led by the college to um create awareness, to create conversations, and I love that this is how we do it here because we know that we all need this level of support.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:36.319
So it's not about the person who in that moment needs support, it's an acceptance that professionally this is how we do things, and we know this works best.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:38.240
So I love that.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:42.720
So, from your own perspective, then what's next?
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.319
Well, oh, so many things.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:58.480
I I really am very passionate about continuing to learn at a personal level and share that learning with surgeons and more broadly.
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:06.640
Um, I feel hugely honoured to have the this bulletin column as a potential route for that.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:14.880
Um, and it's such an amazing opportunity to work with fantastic people at the college and also co-authors in writing expert papers.
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:24.559
Um, I think, and this is again something that we learn as doctors, we as a single individual, you can never know everything, you know, and that's the basis of a team, right?
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.920
Everyone has knowledge and skills and strengths and passions.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:58.640
And um, I think bringing that concept of the multidisciplinary team to individual performance is something that I'm really passionate about, both in that context of working with people to create written material, but also potentially in a more applied way of having a literal team surrounding individual performers in the way that a professional tennis player might have in their player's box, and how that could look and how it might be most useful going forward at an individual level.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:06.000
Um, I really And conversely, you know, people think, well, if you do all that, then that slows everything down.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.559
But it's quite the opposite, isn't it?
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:17.839
Because personal mindset and personal confidence actually plays into more fantastic performance.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:24.480
People are more efficient, they they are less likely to have sick leave or stress leave, whatever.
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:38.400
So if we build in these foundational elements, far from slowing everything down, it actually speeds everything up because people become happier, more productive, they're better team leaders, more work gets done.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:43.119
Absolutely, and everybody's happier in the workplace.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.200
Yeah, and standards go up.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.160
They totally do, and it's not just psychological either.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.960
I think you know, surgeons are notoriously hopeless at eating properly, exercising.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:00.160
How can you, when your shift finishes at random times, how could you commit to being in a regular class or in a regular team?
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:13.200
Nutrition, nutritionally, often surgeons are very poor at eating regularly, and then the food available in the hospital, certainly out of daytime hours, is really not conducive to good performance.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.240
There may be water fountains and rarely there are cups.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.799
You know, there are lots of parts of physical health that also aren't met.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:30.960
You know, it's difficult to go and see a physio or a nutritionist or a GP even on a surgical working rotor because it's often not available out of hours.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:52.880
All of that support, which also I think feels very intuitive to a physical, you know, to someone who's trained as a doctor, uh, and it's so important to optimising your body and your brain to work its best, um, is I think equally important as the psychological side, which I agree is is crucial to focus on.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.759
Because the body is all, body and mind is all one system, and we have to feed all the parts of it.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:20.240
Lily, if there was one thing that you would say to all of our listeners, um, and particularly anyone who currently is, and I'm going to use the word advisedly, struggling with some aspect of their performance or their attitude to work or whatever, what advice would that be?
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:48.640
Invest upfront in the time and the support to understand yourself and to use your word, you know, what fills you up, what motivates you, what drains you, and design a life that makes you happy but also gets the most out of your unique strengths and passions.
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.839
Um, I don't think many of us give ourselves permission to be that individual person.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:03.279
You know, it's it makes me very sad, but it's a a common response to the question, what are you what are your strengths?
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.200
I don't think I have any.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:17.839
And how and reminding people how those strengths add value to so many other people on an ongoing basis and celebrating that with them.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.319
Yeah, and you asked what's tiring for people, you know, what what wears people down.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.519
I think masking does trying to be something you're not.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:26.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:44.480
Um, so I think if you can really give yourself permission to be who you are and really lean into what gives you energy and what you find easy, and of course, learn and develop and grow, and stop trying to be someone else.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:52.319
That I think can be the most empowering and sensible piece of advice, or certainly that I was ever given.
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.480
Um, so yeah, that would be it, I think.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:59.519
Well wonderful advice, Lily, and you are making a fantastic contribution.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:01.759
Where can people find you?
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:07.759
So I have a website, um, it's just my name, Lily L-I L I Cooper.co.uk.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.279
Yeah, and I always love to hear from people, so please do tune in.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:15.119
Super, and you're also on LinkedIn, so they can find you there.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.480
Lily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all those amazing insights.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:21.839
Thank you.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.480
That was a very thought-provoking interview with Dr.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:44.079
Lily Cooper, who shared how experiencing anxiety herself during a surgical procedure and subsequent challenges of returning to work post-cancer treatment led her to become aware of just how little support is available to surgeons.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:55.519
There had been no mention during her training of how to manage her mindset and no peer support available to her as a surgeon when she needed help.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:07.599
So she became motivated to learn more about how to support doctors and other professionals to cope with stress and train to be a coach.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:27.920
In her experience, the common reasons why surgeons seek coaching include issues around performance and productivity, how to cope effectively and efficiently with all of the day-to-day activities as well as clinical work that doctors and others are obligated to do.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:37.199
And it's no surprise that these are similar issues to the issues that come up in a whole range of professions like teaching, social work, and nursing.
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:51.280
Also, another anxiety for people was public speaking, including preparing for job interviews, preparing for interviews as part of training, oral exams, and in presenting papers.
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:06.639
And commonly, people sought help because they just needed to build confidence, they were lacking in self-worth and self-awareness, and for some, they just needed some help to feel joy in life again.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.480
So we shared different models for prioritizing time and energy.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:25.920
The Eisenhower matrix, the do delegate, schedule, and delete is a really common and effective model, and sometimes simply creating a stock doing list can be really, really helpful.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:36.239
We also talked about the need for daily disciplines of celebrating the wins, practicing gratitude, finding time for doing the things that fill us up.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:51.440
And we talked, then we moved on to talk about coping with adverse events and how challenging that can be in any profession and more so in health and social care when there can be a profound impact on service users.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:05.280
Research shows that it's difficult to ask for help, so it's really important to instill systems for reflection, for debriefing, for peer support, and for learning and growth.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:18.480
It's good to know that the College of Surgeons in England is leading out on a national initiative called Support Improvement Collaborative to support surgeons across the UK after adverse events.
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:26.719
And it strikes me that the relevance of this type of nationwide approach for all professions really should be considered.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:47.519
So, one piece of advice that Lily had for anyone currently struggling in any aspect of their role or in their relationships or in life in general was to invest in time and support to better understand yourself and then design a life that fills you up.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.840
So remember, success is never accidental.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.079
And my challenge for you this week is put yourself first.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.559
There are so many ways of accessing help and support.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.599
So go and find the one that works best for you.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.679
And if I can be part of your journey, reach out to me at lyn at lynpayton.com.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:04.400
Hello and welcome to Success is Never Accidental.
00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.599
I'm Lynn Payton and I'm passionate about helping leaders to get better outcomes.
00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:18.320
In this podcast, we explore the experiences, lessons, and thinking behind successful people from all walks of life and internet.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:20.800
Today I'm joined by Dr.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:28.879
Lily Cooper, a plastic surgeon, coach and thought leader whose work focuses on the human side of performance in medicine.
00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:46.399
During her surgical training, Lily became increasingly interested in the psychological and physiological demands placed on surgeons, and high-level attention is often given to developing self-awareness, resilience, and emotional discipline alongside technical expertise.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:01:00.479
Recognizing how important these factors are to performance, communication, and long-term well-being, she trained as a coach to better support surgeons and other professionals working in high-pressure environments.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:12.799
I'm looking forward to exploring her journey, what she's learned about performance under pressure, and why understanding ourselves better can make such a difference both professionally and personally.
00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:18.560
Lily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your experiences.
00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:26.959
I have to say, I was fascinated when I read your article in the bulletin about the whole concept of coaching surgeons.
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But backtrack a little bit and tell me how did you even get into medicine and why choose this specialty of plastic surgery?
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Hmm, well, it was how did I get into medicine?
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I was certainly wasn't a sort of medic from childhood.
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In fact, my first undergraduate offer was to read English literature.
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And I was one of those kids that loved everything, and I really struggled to decide what I wanted to focus on.
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And ultimately, I went to Melbourne University to do a Bachelor of Arts and Sciences because it was basically the broadest degree I could find, and I have an Australian passport, and I had an amazing four years there.
00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:17.039
And of course, during that degree, I studied loads of different things languages, philosophy, history, and sciences, and I ended up gravitating towards anatomy and physiology majors.
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And then I chose to do medicine and had a place at Sydney and a place in Birmingham, and ultimately chose to come back to the UK because that's that's where I grew up and where my family are.
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And then I don't know, I think surgery was a very natural choice for me.
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I've always been very solutions-focused, practical.
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I always made all my own clothes and um plastics.
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I just loved, probably again, because of its breadth, because you treat people at all stages of life, from tiny babies right up to very elderly people, and anatomically it's so broad.
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You know, you treat everywhere in the body, certainly at skin level and deeper in some areas.
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And I think that was why plastics specifically appealed.
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And what made you first realize that success in surgery was much more than just being good technically?
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:19.280
So I had two kind of situations that I couldn't ignore, I guess, during training.
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The first was that when I was about a second year registrar, so um for anyone who's not familiar with the surgical training pathway, you finish med school and then do foundation jobs for a couple of years, and then you do core surgical training for a couple of years, and then you apply for a specialty training programme, which is six years minimum.
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Uh, and there's lots of space to add in extra time along the way if you wanted to do research or have a baby or have a, you know, pursue a different sport or something.
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But so I'd got to second year registrar, so I'd been a doctor for six years or so, and I was working um in a centre that I loved, and I was doing well, and I was doing a microsurgical procedure to reconstruct a breast after mastectomy, uh, where you take it's called a DEP procedure, you take skin and fat from the lower abdomen and take it off, attached to an artery and vein, and then you move it up to the chest and you plumb in the artery and the vein to a local artery and vein so the tissue can live there and form a new very natural-looking breast mound, and then obviously you close up the tummy.
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Um, so I was just beavering away, joining the two ends of the artery together under a microscope, and a consultant I really respected walked behind me and said, beautiful stitching.
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And I just became really self-conscious all of a sudden and started shaking.
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And I'd never had anything like that before, and I'd certainly never had a situation where I couldn't make my body or my mind do what I wanted it to do, but the more I tried to stop, the worse it got.
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And that was my first experience of performance anxiety, and it really shook me because I didn't, I became worried it would happen again, of course it did, and no one could tell me what to do, even though when I looked around, having become sensitized to it, I saw it was really common that people would get tremors sometimes or or seem to get kind of stressed or get a brain fog or different manifestations of pressure and stress in the moment.
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And so I became very academically interested in how to manage that.
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Um, for some time I took beta blockers because that's basically what I was told to do is the only viable option.
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Um, but then I became very interested in the psychology and the physiology behind performance anxiety and how to manage it in other domains like professional music or sport or um the dramatic arts, where it's not only understood, but it's people are prepared for it, you know, in their first module at music school or whatever.
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Um, so that that interested me, and it was something I couldn't ignore.
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And then the second thing that happened a couple of years later was I had to have treatment radical chemoradiotherapy for a new cancer diagnosis.
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And coming back to work from I had a few months off because I was having regular chemo radiotherapy.
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And coming back from that to finishing training, doing the exam, balancing clinical work with what with more need than I'd had before for rest and so on.
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Again, I became aware of how much was understood in other domains around managing energy, optimising health, um, being efficient in productivity, um, which is so heavily supported in the corporate sector, but really had never been mentioned in my training anyway.
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And I became very passionate about bringing all of this understanding to a group of people who I and I extend, you know, it's not just surgeons, obviously, there are many professionals who work in really high-stakes environments on the front line, um, who can't afford in terms of time and often money, because it's not necessarily well remunerated, depending um on the situation, to find the support that they need and and I really think deserve.
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Um, so I guess that was my initial intention when I went into coaching to try and understand how can all of this wisdom that exists in other silos be accessible to everyone who could benefit from it?
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And you know, that extends beyond even clinicians and frontline workers to basically every human in the world.
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You know, if you're rich and famous, why do you get an elite team around you optimizing your every move?
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And yet every individual in the world is doing really important work.
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Why don't we all have access to that knowledge?
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That's a really, really critical question, Lily, isn't it?
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Because athletes and singers and people who actors, all of those people have support systems around not just managing the technical part of their talent or um sport or whatever, but mindset is a critical element of peak performance.
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Um, and yet we don't particularly focus on it in the professions.
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So I love that idea that it should be more commonly available.
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So tell us about some of the situations that commonly, or the themes maybe that commonly come up when you're coaching um surgeons, doctors, and other professionals, because I loved how in your bulletin, I loved your column in the bulletin, um, um just really resonated because it could have been any profession that you were dealing with, and these things seem so common, and yet what you're saying is the support for them is not at all common.
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So, what are some of the things that regularly come up?
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So I think there are three main buckets probably at the at the front end, but then of course, when you dive deeper, there's often, you know, other aspects too that people are working with.
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But the reason people come for coaching are typically either an issue around performance, so that might be a tremor.
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So I recently had a client who relies on beta blockers to manage their tremor, uh, is getting to the end of training and felt that they couldn't ethically step up to a consultant role while they needed beta blockers to be able to do their job.
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Because as a registrar, you can always call the boss if you forgot them or there was a worldwide shortage of them or you became tolerant to them over time, someone could come and do do it for you or with you.
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But when you're the boss, who can you call?
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And so they were very anxious, they actually said, I think I need to leave surgery not because I don't love it, not because I haven't, you know, hit all of the technical markers, but I just don't feel I can continue to practice at the next level up with a tremor that I can't manage on my own.
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Um, but also issues with public speaking or issues in interviews and being able to access all of that amazing experience and those answers that judgment in on the mo, you know, on on the on the in the spotlight.
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And the same as well in vivo exams.
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So um there are entrance and exit exams as surgeons which are face-to-face, and many people struggle to pass them, and you only get four goes, and then you're not allowed to take them anymore.
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So they become increasingly high pressure.
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Um, so that kind of self-management under pressure, um, building structures around regulation and um integrating rest and also being able to perform on the spot in different situations is one.
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Another big one, and it's really unsexy to talk about, but is I guess what you would call productivity.
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So, how do you, in the face of a busy job that is unpredictable already, how do you manage not only the expected extra academic stuff, so writing papers that you have to do to pass the year, studying for exams, keeping up your clinical knowledge, but also the kind of day-to-day admin logging procedures in your e-log book, sending assessments to your supervisors, organising lists, replying to emails.
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How do you integrate that in a way that doesn't just completely encroach on everything else?
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Um, and as efficiently as possible so that you can do what you need to do, choose what's important to you, um, and still have a life outside surgery, hobbies, creative endeavours, and so on.
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And then the third kind of bucket, if you like, is often around self-confidence, a sense of self-worth, understanding who you are, giving yourself permission, even to be a person, an individual with dreams and strengths and areas for growth, and not just a kind of cookie-cutter surgical trainee in what we're all told that should look like.
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Um, a lot of people come saying, you know, I've got everything on paper, but I feel completely empty.
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I can't remember the last time I had fun.
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I can't remember the last time I felt at peace or contented.
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How do I access that again?
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And it's absolutely interesting because those are similar to all the kinds of scenarios that I see in coaching in health and social care as well.
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Um let's backtrack to the one you said about the performance management, and because that's common for teachers, for people in all kinds of disciplines, and for people in corporate life as well.
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How do you be more effective, more efficient without compromising the quality of the work that you do?
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What are some of the things that you have found are most helpful in that whole time management, energy management space?
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So I think there are two really important concepts here.
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One is that our time is not equal.
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So we all have kind of cognitive golden hours depending on our chronotype, depending on our lifestyle, depending on our preference.
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And that time should be defended for really important or really difficult work.
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There's no point wasting it on standing on the sidelines of a football match or ticking off your to-do list when you could be really advancing something that needs all you've got cognitively.
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And then the other concept is that your tasks also aren't equal, and we have a psychological bias to always prioritize things that are urgent.
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And I'm sure that many of your listeners will have heard of the Eisenhower Matrix, which Stephen Covey so eloquently um described in his book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
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But essentially it's a two by two of urgent, non-urgent, important, non-important.
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And the urgent, important stuff you don't need to worry about because you'll always do it, because it matters to you and it's urgent, so it will always sort of take the front line due to a psychological effect called the mere urgency effect.
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But it's the important, not urgent stuff that doesn't have a deadline that relates maybe relates to your health, or a hobby that you want to do, or a paper you've been desperate to write, or a book you're trying to write, or time with loved ones, or you know, things that are really that really matter and you miss them and you feel ashamed if you don't pursue them, but they just never seem to get an edge in.
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:19.519
Um, and then he talks about managing the bottom row, you know, the the important sorry, the not important but urgent, which are the things that do they have to happen, but they don't necessarily need you to do them.
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And considering how you can delegate or outsource those and increasingly automation could solve that problem.
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But there's often a lot of self-management involved when you are delegating to others in a leadership capacity and how you manage that within yourself.
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Uh, and then there's the not urgent, not important, and how you discipline yourself to not check social media or not look at your emails on the hour every hour and you know get lost in nonsense that doesn't matter.
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And you just delete those, yeah.
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You don't go there.
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What's really interesting, I find, is um I study with Nido Kwibin at High Point University in North Carolina um at one stage a few years back.
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:10.320
And while he loved that matrix, he also said there's an even more simple one, and it starts with a stop doing list.
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So stop pleasing people, stop saying yes.
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As you say, stop the obvious things like social media, but I find stop saying yes is really, really critical because most people want to please their boss, their colleagues, their family, their friends, whatever.
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:37.039
But sometimes when we learn to actually stop, and again, Covey's great about don't react, respond.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.720
So take a deep breath and say, now hold on a wee minute.
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.080
If I do this, what purpose does it serve?
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:45.519
Who does it serve?
00:16:45.759 --> 00:17:03.200
But bringing it back because we all have a responsibility as leaders to serve ourselves, because when we're in full gear and when we're optimizing our energy, our mindset, the team flows and the team benefits and the family benefits.
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:10.319
So learning to do things and to stop doing things that don't serve us is really, really critical.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:20.319
And another thing he said is find out what you're doing that is actually filling you up and making you feel fulfilled, and do more of it.
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:41.519
So that's the thing, like the time with family, like the walking in nature, like the hobbies, like the academic paper that gives you a huge buzz whenever you commit all that wonderful knowledge and experience into some sort of mechanism where you're actually helping and benefiting others.
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:52.880
And for you, it must be a joy when you see your column in print to know that while you're coaching one-to-one, you're helping one person, and hopefully, there's a ripple effect.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:18:02.400
But when you have that monthly column, you don't know how many people, Lily, are actually benefiting from your advice, so that must give you a real buzz.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:10.000
Yeah, it does, and I'm sure you feel exactly the same with your amazing work and congratulations on your 80th podcast, which I think I read.
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:35.200
Yes, goes out, it actually went out today, which is incredible, and again, that was just another mechanism to try and reach more people because whether we're in surgery or social work or um uh juvenile justice or or just leaders in in businesses, uh, the advice is all the same.
00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:41.519
We just have to mold it a bit for the particular environment or the particular target audience.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:19:01.200
But tell me, uh thinking back now, what what separates those, what kind of mindset separates those people who stay resilient and stay purposeful and committed from those who feel drained and ultimately maybe actually walk away from the profession?
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:03.599
What do you think is the difference in mindset?
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:13.519
Oh, I'm sure there are, I mean, this is a multifaceted topic, I'm sure, but I do think there are some that are particularly significant.
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:25.200
Um I think that have many surgeons, and I think it's true for many high-performing professionals in different worlds, have quite a tendency to have quite a fixed mindset.
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:42.160
Um, a lot of people are quite perfectionist and have been rewarded throughout their life for being bright, doing well, bringing home certificates, and it can become very difficult to learn to fail and to grow.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:51.119
And I think that's even more so when the subject of a failure is a human because it feels so unacceptable.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:58.640
And it's interesting, having trained in the corporate coaching world, often people say, Yeah, well, you know, what's the worst that can happen?
00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.920
No one's gonna die, are they?
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:03.279
And that's a very different world.
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:16.400
And it's still true that holding yourself to perfection as an outcome of choice can be a big problem for performance and can make feedback very hard to hear.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:26.319
And of course, Kristen's Kristen Neff's work's fascinating around the impact on learning and growth and resilience of self-compassion versus self-criticism.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:41.440
Because I think often, unfortunately, the incoming critique within the workplace can echo our own internal inner critic, in my experience, anyway, of how the surgical world still works.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:49.200
It's very judgmental, it's very overt, um, and it can be quite difficult to break that fixed mindset.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:56.559
Um, so I think that's one that can be hugely impactful, if very difficult, to work on sometimes.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:06.799
Um, I think another one is a kind of scarcity, abundance, or um sufficiency, insufficiency, depending on what wording you prefer, shift.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:23.039
You know, we know that if people are feeling anxious, if they are in an insufficiency mindset, they find it harder to plan for the future, they're more likely to go for an immediate reward that's smaller, uh, they may behave more defensively, they may be psychologically less flexible.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:29.359
And that has a big knock-on in terms of teams and team growth and performance.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:36.319
Um, again, it can be quite hard to see the abundance in what is just a very strapped workplace.
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.119
And again, I'm sure this is true for many of your listeners.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:51.680
Um, and often, and it's our natural for evolutionary reasons, it's our natural bias to have a negative attentional bias to threat, again, for very sensible reasons in our evolutionary past.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:59.759
But um, I think very actively shifting that towards a positive bias, no, you know, gratitude.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:14.000
Practice, reflecting on your strengths, remembering the times it's gone well, or remembering the times that hasn't, but you have had a process where you've, as a team or as an individual, achieved the best outcome you could have in the circumstances.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.000
As habits, I think those are very helpful to start to consider.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:25.920
Yeah, and I'm sure you do, like I do, try and lay a strengths-based foundation in every coaching session.
00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.000
You know, so I always ask people to do some prep for coaching.
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:42.319
And the first question is tell me five things that have gone really well or five success stories since the last time we talked, because there is that habit to always look at, well, that's done, what's next?
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:51.200
And and and we spent more time agonizing over something that didn't go just as well as we hoped than we ever do thinking about now.
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:52.559
Why did that go well?
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:00.559
Oh, yes, it went well because I planned for it, because I had the skill set, because I asked for help, you know, all of the things.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:16.559
So a lot of times we we study why did something go so well, so that we can learn from that and do more of it, as opposed to what happened there that went wrong, because that's where we tend to spend too much time and energy.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:30.559
So, some of those day-to-day practices, if we can get those disciplines in place where maybe people do a gratitude journal or they reflect at the end of every day about, and I think your brain loves numbers, doesn't it?
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:40.400
You know, three places today where I added some value, you know, and just changing the language patterns and the self-questioning can be so important.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:50.240
You you you wrote a beautiful article about coping with adverse events, and you made reference to that um just earlier in this interview.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:59.279
What are some of the things that the team and peers and others can do to help following an adverse event?
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:15.519
Yeah, I loved writing that article, and I did it alongside a really committed and talented um, well, in this case, three co-authors, but they represent a team and an extended network across the UK who are doing amazing work alongside the Royal College of Surgeons of England.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:27.680
Um, and I cited a large survey that was um performed, and the senior author was Kevin Turner, who's a consultant urological surgeon down in Bournemouth in Bournemouth.
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:34.319
And they revealed that I mean, adverse events are part of surgical practice, aren't they?
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:39.039
Whether they're complications or errors, or most commonly a mixture probably of the two.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:25:00.880
And what they found was that 43% of surgeons didn't speak to anyone after an adverse event, and less than 3% are professional, yet 43% of them experienced increased anxiety, 11% were using alcohol more, a huge number of them had sleep issues as a result.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:07.839
There are major knock-ons, and I don't think as surgeons we're very good at seeking support.
00:25:09.119 --> 00:25:13.039
I think that's also an issue, not just at an individual level, but at a cultural level.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:26.880
So I think in answer to your question, what can we do as peers or as teams, I think the first thing is as a culture, uh try to speak more about normal events, you know, share vulnerability where it feels safe to do so.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:33.440
That's one of the main things I'm trying to do with the column is just increase discussion around experiences.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:41.839
And I think if senior leaders, senior surgeons are comfortable sharing their experience, it can be hugely empowering to those who look up to them.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.440
And again, that's just true, isn't it, across all teams.
00:25:46.160 --> 00:26:10.000
Um, more specifically, the support team are looking to integrate peer support within departments where separate to any sanction or any learning from an adverse event, there is just a peer-to-peer human-to-human check-in, or multiple often, to see how that person is behind the clinical mask.
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:29.599
And I'm not sure, and in contrast to coaching, where we often talk about the level one, you know, your personal response to something a client might share, for instance, still maintaining a professional affect and way of being, but actually acknowledging that as separate and having a coach yourself, the same is true in therapy.
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.720
I think in surgery, again, we're encouraged to be professional.
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:36.319
It's you know, we are assessed on that in many ways.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:49.599
But there's I don't feel there's often the same acknowledgement of the human being and making space for that person to process emotions, to reflect, um, to feel connected to others.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:27:02.559
And so what they're trying to do is create a network where it becomes the norm, you know, if you're approached by a peer, it's not because you've done something wrong, it's because that's what's done here and it's part of the process, it's confidential and it's separate to sanction.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.279
Um, and I'm sure that that will be a and has been shown to be a very powerful maneuver.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:26.000
So that's fabulous to know that there is a national kind of programme now led by the college to um create awareness, to create conversations, and I love that this is how we do it here because we know that we all need this level of support.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:36.319
So it's not about the person who in that moment needs support, it's an acceptance that professionally this is how we do things, and we know this works best.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:38.240
So I love that.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:42.720
So, from your own perspective, then what's next?
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.319
Well, oh, so many things.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:58.480
I I really am very passionate about continuing to learn at a personal level and share that learning with surgeons and more broadly.
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:06.640
Um, I feel hugely honoured to have the this bulletin column as a potential route for that.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:14.880
Um, and it's such an amazing opportunity to work with fantastic people at the college and also co-authors in writing expert papers.
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:24.559
Um, I think, and this is again something that we learn as doctors, we as a single individual, you can never know everything, you know, and that's the basis of a team, right?
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.920
Everyone has knowledge and skills and strengths and passions.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:58.640
And um, I think bringing that concept of the multidisciplinary team to individual performance is something that I'm really passionate about, both in that context of working with people to create written material, but also potentially in a more applied way of having a literal team surrounding individual performers in the way that a professional tennis player might have in their player's box, and how that could look and how it might be most useful going forward at an individual level.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:06.000
Um, I really And conversely, you know, people think, well, if you do all that, then that slows everything down.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.559
But it's quite the opposite, isn't it?
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:17.839
Because personal mindset and personal confidence actually plays into more fantastic performance.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:24.480
People are more efficient, they they are less likely to have sick leave or stress leave, whatever.
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:38.400
So if we build in these foundational elements, far from slowing everything down, it actually speeds everything up because people become happier, more productive, they're better team leaders, more work gets done.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:43.119
Absolutely, and everybody's happier in the workplace.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.200
Yeah, and standards go up.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.160
They totally do, and it's not just psychological either.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.960
I think you know, surgeons are notoriously hopeless at eating properly, exercising.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:00.160
How can you, when your shift finishes at random times, how could you commit to being in a regular class or in a regular team?
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:13.200
Nutrition, nutritionally, often surgeons are very poor at eating regularly, and then the food available in the hospital, certainly out of daytime hours, is really not conducive to good performance.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.240
There may be water fountains and rarely there are cups.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.799
You know, there are lots of parts of physical health that also aren't met.
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:30.960
You know, it's difficult to go and see a physio or a nutritionist or a GP even on a surgical working rotor because it's often not available out of hours.
00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:52.880
All of that support, which also I think feels very intuitive to a physical, you know, to someone who's trained as a doctor, uh, and it's so important to optimising your body and your brain to work its best, um, is I think equally important as the psychological side, which I agree is is crucial to focus on.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.759
Because the body is all, body and mind is all one system, and we have to feed all the parts of it.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:20.240
Lily, if there was one thing that you would say to all of our listeners, um, and particularly anyone who currently is, and I'm going to use the word advisedly, struggling with some aspect of their performance or their attitude to work or whatever, what advice would that be?
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:48.640
Invest upfront in the time and the support to understand yourself and to use your word, you know, what fills you up, what motivates you, what drains you, and design a life that makes you happy but also gets the most out of your unique strengths and passions.
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.839
Um, I don't think many of us give ourselves permission to be that individual person.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:03.279
You know, it's it makes me very sad, but it's a a common response to the question, what are you what are your strengths?
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:05.200
I don't think I have any.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:17.839
And how and reminding people how those strengths add value to so many other people on an ongoing basis and celebrating that with them.
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:22.319
Yeah, and you asked what's tiring for people, you know, what what wears people down.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.519
I think masking does trying to be something you're not.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:26.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:44.480
Um, so I think if you can really give yourself permission to be who you are and really lean into what gives you energy and what you find easy, and of course, learn and develop and grow, and stop trying to be someone else.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:52.319
That I think can be the most empowering and sensible piece of advice, or certainly that I was ever given.
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.480
Um, so yeah, that would be it, I think.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:59.519
Well wonderful advice, Lily, and you are making a fantastic contribution.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:01.759
Where can people find you?
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:07.759
So I have a website, um, it's just my name, Lily L-I L I Cooper.co.uk.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.279
Yeah, and I always love to hear from people, so please do tune in.
00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:15.119
Super, and you're also on LinkedIn, so they can find you there.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.480
Lily, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing all those amazing insights.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:21.839
Thank you.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.480
That was a very thought-provoking interview with Dr.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:44.079
Lily Cooper, who shared how experiencing anxiety herself during a surgical procedure and subsequent challenges of returning to work post-cancer treatment led her to become aware of just how little support is available to surgeons.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:55.519
There had been no mention during her training of how to manage her mindset and no peer support available to her as a surgeon when she needed help.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:07.599
So she became motivated to learn more about how to support doctors and other professionals to cope with stress and train to be a coach.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:27.920
In her experience, the common reasons why surgeons seek coaching include issues around performance and productivity, how to cope effectively and efficiently with all of the day-to-day activities as well as clinical work that doctors and others are obligated to do.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:37.199
And it's no surprise that these are similar issues to the issues that come up in a whole range of professions like teaching, social work, and nursing.
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:51.280
Also, another anxiety for people was public speaking, including preparing for job interviews, preparing for interviews as part of training, oral exams, and in presenting papers.
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:06.639
And commonly, people sought help because they just needed to build confidence, they were lacking in self-worth and self-awareness, and for some, they just needed some help to feel joy in life again.
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.480
So we shared different models for prioritizing time and energy.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:25.920
The Eisenhower matrix, the do delegate, schedule, and delete is a really common and effective model, and sometimes simply creating a stock doing list can be really, really helpful.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:36.239
We also talked about the need for daily disciplines of celebrating the wins, practicing gratitude, finding time for doing the things that fill us up.
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:51.440
And we talked, then we moved on to talk about coping with adverse events and how challenging that can be in any profession and more so in health and social care when there can be a profound impact on service users.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:05.280
Research shows that it's difficult to ask for help, so it's really important to instill systems for reflection, for debriefing, for peer support, and for learning and growth.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:18.480
It's good to know that the College of Surgeons in England is leading out on a national initiative called Support Improvement Collaborative to support surgeons across the UK after adverse events.
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:26.719
And it strikes me that the relevance of this type of nationwide approach for all professions really should be considered.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:47.519
So, one piece of advice that Lily had for anyone currently struggling in any aspect of their role or in their relationships or in life in general was to invest in time and support to better understand yourself and then design a life that fills you up.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:51.840
So remember, success is never accidental.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:56.079
And my challenge for you this week is put yourself first.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.559
There are so many ways of accessing help and support.
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:03.599
So go and find the one that works best for you.
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.679
And if I can be part of your journey, reach out to me at lyn at lynpayton.com.
