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Well, you know, technical skills get you hired a lot of times, whether you're in a church situation, if you know how to set up and run audio, lighting, whatever it is, that gets you in the room.
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But when you start making that shift to thinking like a producer, that gets you a seat at tables and meetings that you would never be in before.
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Maybe it's with uh VPs uh or or executive staff of a church talking through things.
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They start wanting you in meetings that you were never in before.
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So it's not only affecting your team, it's it can affect you and your career as well.
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Hello and welcome to the Success and Focus Podcast.
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My name is Danny Salazar, lead filmmaker at Reveal Video, and also host of this podcast.
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I'm excited about a conversation that we're gonna have right now with my friend Dan Wathen.
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He is a Hollywood producer and founder of his own production company called DRW Media Works, where he helps nonprofits and churches just get it right with their media.
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So I'm excited for this conversation.
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Dan just brings so much wisdom to the table.
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Let's go ahead and jump in.
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How did you get started in this whole like video producer side of things?
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I feel like I'm a bit odd in that, that I knew super young what I wanted to do.
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Uh to make a long story short, back in probably I was probably maybe seven or eight, um, my I have a handicapped brother.
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And when he was born, my parents was were watching uh the 700 Club, which is on CBN at the time, and they called in for prayer.
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And immediately the next day, my brother started doing things he had never done.
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And so they sent a film crew all the way to Texas, and this was back in the day when they had a lighting guy they'd sent, an audio guy, camera guy, a producer.
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So for a solid week, as a kid, I'm watching this film crew shoot all types of interviews and things.
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And it was at that point I said, I want to do that.
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I was just mesmerized by it.
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So several years later, my parents relocated to Oklahoma.
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And the church I went to at the time, Victory Christian Center, uh, created their own television program.
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So they purchased TV cameras.
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So I'm sitting in the auditorium and I see TV cameras pop up.
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You know, there, there's one in centerline, there's, you know, all over the place.
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And I'm I'm just staring at these things the whole service.
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And my parents noticed it and they said, Dan, is that something you'd like to do?
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And I said, Yeah.
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But I was just probably 15, 16 at the time.
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So they talked to the media director, and he said, Absolutely.
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So that ex that I think it was the next Sunday, they put me on a camera, put the headset on.
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I was running the audience camera, so I'm practically on stage facing the audience doing this.
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I'm in heaven, you know.
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I'm hearing this person telling me what shots to get, you know.
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My Zoom was probably super fast.
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I had didn't have any control over it, you know.
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I was I was new, but I'm this is what I wanted to do.
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So it was at that point, I literally every Sunday, I was either running camera or I was back in the, they had a production truck watching the director do everything.
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And uh I remember one Sunday I was in the control room with him, and his wife went into labor, and he spins around, and I'm the only one in there.
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And he said, Dan, get up here and take over.
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So I put the headset on and I just start mimicking what I had seen him do all those previous Sundays, ready camera one, take one.
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And these are all adults on camera, so they're probably thinking, What's going on here?
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I don't I don't need a 15, 16-year-old telling me what shots to get.
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Yeah.
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But that next week they called my parents and said, Can we put Dan on part-time staff at the church and direct every service?
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And this was back when you had a Wednesday night service, you had two or three Sunday morning, a Sunday night.
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So this became like a boot camp for directing for everything, editing, how to wire cables, how to set up the cables, the cameras.
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And uh that's how I got into it.
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And literally from that point, I think legally I was 16 years old to get a paycheck, you had to be.
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And from that point, I have always had a check in media.
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You know, how I get paid is through media.
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So I'm very uh grateful for it.
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From the teenage years in church, I went on to uh work for several large ministries that had television departments.
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So I produced and directed for their teams, and I also served on staff at uh two to three churches as their full-time media director.
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And it was about 14, 15 years ago that God just really put on my heart to relocate to the Los Angeles area.
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I had only visited here one time, and I actually didn't really like the city.
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It wasn't that, hey, I want to move to this really nice place.
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Uh I had come here for vacation with a friend, went home, and there was just something that dropped in my spirit that said, Dan, you're gonna be moving there.
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And uh I just knew that I knew.
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So it took about three years for that to actually happen because it wasn't an easy thing.
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I had to sell my house, you know, relocate, find another place.
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And um, but I just knew God wanted me here for some reason.
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So I I stepped out of the role, the full-time role of a church that I was in and went to a freelance position.
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I was also helping churches, and it was there that I had met one of my mentors.
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He was, he didn't even know he's a mentor to me, but I had read his books and listened to his EDs and things.
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It was Phil Cook, who, if you don't know Phil, he's kind of the Christian media guru guru at the time.
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So I took him out to lunch and you know, I was in awe.
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Wow.
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Got to go in their office and everything.
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Yeah.
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Took him out to lunch and said, Hey, I'm in town.
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If, you know, if I can ever help you guys, let me know.
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So a few weeks, months passed, and uh he started bringing me in on some small projects with churches, reviewing their television programs.
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I would watch the show and type up notes for them.
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And then it just kind of merged into a part-time position and then eventually a full-time position.
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So I was executive producer for his company, Cook Media Group, for a little over 11 years, uh running all projects, budgets, churches, a little bit of everything.
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And then transitioned a couple of years ago into my own company, DRW Media Works.
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That's my initials, Daniel Ray Wathan.
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So Wathen is such a weird name to say.
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I thought there's no way I can name it after myself.
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So I thought the initials would work.
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So I do a similar thing, reaching out and helping uh church media directors specifically in what they do, because I get what they do.
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It's not an easy job, as you know, Danny, you've served in that position before.
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You kind of feel forgotten a lot of times.
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You've got this ton of work, you don't know how to get through it.
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And so I help with coaching them as well as their pastors in shifting from thinking about just the tech, because it's so easy.
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You get bombarded of, I gotta fix this camera for Sunday, I gotta redo this TriAx cable, fix this, fix that.
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And you lose sight of the big picture of things.
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And what that really is, is thinking like a producer.
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A producer is is thinking about everything.
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He's thinking about the tech, and he's also thinking about big picture.
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What does what projects do we need to be doing to reach people better?
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And it took me a long time to start thinking that way, right?
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Of just m moving out of the, okay, I gotta edit this today, what's the next thing, what's the next thing, into expanding my thinking to think like a producer, which really helps in all areas of your life, right?
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Yeah.
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And and can you expound on that?
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Like, what does it mean to think like a producer?
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Because just like what you were saying, like I remember being so like bogged down, my head stuck on my computer, doing the editing thing.
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But there came a point where I had to break out and grow.
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So what what does that mean to like think like a producer versus just an editor or just uh you know a technical director on Sunday?
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So a technician focuses on tasks, right?
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I have to do this today, I need to edit the video announcements, I need to set up cameras for Sunday, for Wednesday night, maybe the children's ministry need a TV setup.
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These are tasks.
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These are uh yes, yes, they're important, right?
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I'm not saying they're not important, but producers are focusing on what's the outcome of things, right?
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It's it's yes, you're still looking at the task, but you've broadened it out into what's the outcomes?
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Who let's say the pastor gives you a video to edit, uh thinking about, okay, where is this gonna be played at?
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Is it gonna be in church?
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Is it on television?
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And how can we best produce something that's reaching those specific people?
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What do we want to say?
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Who are we gonna interview for it?
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So instead of just going along with what everybody's given you, you ask questions, you push back a little bit, not in a bad way, but you ask questions to really determine what the outcome is going to be of the piece.
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So a producer is living between the vision and execution of things, right?
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And a lot of times, maybe you're not the head person in your department, maybe you're just an editor.
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But if you notice, probably your boss or whoever that person is above you, they're thinking about that vision and the execution, probably more than you are, right?
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And so start watching and listening and how they're reacting to things.
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Uh, maybe you're not in that producer position today, but you can still learn a lot by watching, right?
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Producers think about people, they're thinking about budgets, timelines, who the audience is, and really the mission of everything.
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Did it, Danny, in your position when you worked for churches, were you thinking of that automatically or did it come with time?
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Man, it came with time.
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So, like the value that I brought to our department was uh just a fresh lens of creativity, you know, of like creative ideas, creative films, and and uh back in the day, uh uh depth of field, the shallow depth of field with the 5D Mark IIs were such a thing.
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And I brought that in into our department, and uh it just blossomed, you know.
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It was like, whoa, like we can do this and do that.
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Um but uh I did hit a wall, you know, where I was doing everything.
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Probably about maybe five years ago, I was working at another church, and um uh our our communication director uh at the time who's still a good friend of mine.
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Um he bluntly said that hey, um no, nobody cares about like the videos that you're making, you know.
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And I'm like, yo, whoa, dude, like that's really mean, you know, for you to say that.
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Like that hurts my heart, you know.
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Like I put so much blood and sweat into the projects that I do, right?
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But he gave me more context, is that like you really need to create stories that are able to draw people in.
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Like you want to make sure that you craft your stories where uh you you do understand the the final output and and really think about the strategy of your videos, right?
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So um just like what you said is that that's that's putting that producer mindset, that producer hat on of not just making pretty films, you know, pretty can take you so far, and artistic can take you so far, right?
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But it's about drawing people in.
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And I think uh working at a church, there's even a greater purpose to wanting to draw people in.
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So that way they can know who Jesus is, right?
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Um, so there's a lot more purpose in that.
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So for me, that's when I finally connected the dots and really started stepping into a producer mindset where I discovered, okay, I can't do this all by myself, you know.
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Um, I need to bring volunteers.
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I have more of a pastor's heart, uh, which I've discovered through ministry throughout the years.
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And I just love shepherding people, I love teaching people as well, too.
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So I was really able to step out in that gift as well, too, and really see myself and other volunteers, even younger volunteers, of like, whoa, that kid was the same age as I was when I started operating camera for church.
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So let me invest a little bit more into this kid.
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You know, I'm sure with your experiences too, like it really shapes how you train people, how you pastor people, how you um, how you bring life to people.
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I've always, you know, technical skills get you hired a lot of times, whether you're in a church situation, if you know how to set up and run audio lighting, whatever it is, that gets you in the room.
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But when you start making that shift to thinking like a producer, that gets you a seat at tables and meetings that you would never be in before.
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Maybe it's with uh VPs uh or or executive staff of a church talking through things.
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They start wanting you in meetings that you were never in before.
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So it's not only affecting your team, it's it can affect you and your career as well.
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Because, in my opinion, I know for me, I didn't want to stay just being the tech.
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I mean, as you get older, you get tired of running cameras all the time.
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You want something else.
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And if you really want to move up, if you want to have your own business, it really takes that mind shift of moving from tech to producer.
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And church media prepared me for that.
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Even, you know, having my own company now, uh, it taught me everything, you know, from leadership, like you say, working with volunteers, problem solving, communication, uh, being resourceful with not a lot, right?
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I know a couple of the churches I work for, man, we were lucky to just have an avid editor, you know, a machine to edit on back in the day.
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And so much of the stuff I had to do myself.
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Yeah.
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So every Sunday was a deadline in the church world that prepared both of us really for what we're doing today.
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And and that that leads to my next question.
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So, like, why do these creative teams often struggle to communicate with leadership?
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You know, the the creative world kind of speaks their own language, uh, especially media people like uh we may say, what is the video wait for monitor read, or what's the frame rate of these things?
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So every I would say industry has their own internal language that they use.
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And so when we're trying to communicate, let's say with a pastor or a client that's in a completely different field, if we try to use that same language with them, it doesn't always click.
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In fact, in in the church world, I've seen where media directors will use, you know, their tech lingo all the time with their pastor, and their pastor just doesn't enjoy talking to them because they don't understand what they're saying.
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They don't get it.
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And so they tend to avoid the person over time, I've seen.
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But when you learn to shift your language and go from technical language and learn to speak more of what an outcome would be, say if, hey, let's say you do need new cameras for your sanctuary.
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And instead of going in with the typical, you know, lingo, these new cameras are gonna do so many lines of resolution, whatever.
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Speak the language of your pastor.
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What's the outcome?
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You know, pastor, by getting this equipment, we're gonna be able to reach more people on the live stream, which could potentially bring more people into the church.
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And when that happens, what happens?
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They start serving, giving, everything increases, right?
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So it's not just, I want you to sign a check and buy this.
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I'm gonna tell you what the outcome could be and probably will be if we make this.
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So pastors care about that.
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They care about mission, the reach, engagement, growth, and impact.
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So learn to talk the language of your client.
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If you're dealing with a business person, tell them how doing these videos for social media or these testimony pieces are gonna drive new customers and new clients to that business.
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So learn to speak the language of who you're dealing with.
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I worked with uh a church recently where the church was signing off on everything the media director wanted.
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They were buying, they had built this new studio.
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It was great.
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That's awesome.
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New cameras, things that you would never normally get, which was super cool.
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But but the guy refused to use any of it until everything was in.
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And they were having to do it in stages and he wouldn't use the studio.
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It was a beautiful studio.
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He still wouldn't use it, he wouldn't use any of the cameras.
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And eventually he lost his job because he still wanted more things, right?
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He's like, if I get I need these things to actually use it.
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And the board and stuff got tired of writing checks because the way he framed it wasn't right.
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So that's one extreme of not doing it correctly, right?
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I think uh you can get lost again with the technicality things, the uh the nice shiny toys and stuff.
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But uh if you lose the mindset of the mission of the bigger picture, then uh you might you might be walking out of that door sooner than later.
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Aaron Powell You know, one of the realizations I came to, this was like uh probably in the early 2000s.
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This was the first time I was the guy.
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I was the media director in a church.
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They paid me a good salary, moved out of state, took it, and the pastor told me, he said, I'm bringing you in for one main reason.
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I want you to take my television show national.
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I want you to do upgrades, whatever you got to do.
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So, okay, I can do that.
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I've I've worked in that before.
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And uh I think I had one or two part-time staff members.
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So I'm doing my thing, I knew the tech.
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A year went by and it was actually my birthday, and the pastor called me into the office to sit down, and I thought he was gonna say happy birthday, Dan.
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No, he said, Dan, I hired you for one reason, and that hasn't happened.
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You have not done what I hired you to do.
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And I thought he was gonna fire me right there.
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He didn't.
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.960
And it was I was crushed, I was devastated.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:50.000
I had never been told that, or I felt like I disappointed someone.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:57.279
And I walked out of that room, I think I was in my 30s and uh maybe early 20s, I don't remember.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.559
But I remember calling uh my family and saying, I gotta find another job.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.559
This this isn't working, you know.
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:15.200
I was out, and my mom called her pastor, different city, and that pastor called me and he talked to me and he said, I'm gonna send you some books and tapes.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:20.880
And it was actually John Maxwell material, and this was back when John was just kind of getting popular.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.599
So he sent me these books about leadership and uh all you know, CD of the month club, all this stuff.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.640
And I started listening to it, and I learned that I don't have to be the one that does everything.
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:41.519
Because I always felt if if I was hired to do something, I would look bad if I actually called someone else and brought them in to help or anything.
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.240
But I learned that was actually what you're supposed to do.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:49.680
I wasn't supposed to do everything myself, and that was a huge shift in my life.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.160
And, you know, fast forward a few months, then we went on national television.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.359
I stayed there for three years, loved the job, didn't want to leave.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.880
You know, it was a great experience.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.599
But that was a huge shift for me of leadership and utilizing your team, and you don't have to do everything.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:06.720
You're not the guy.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.480
You know, build a team around you that can do great things.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:11.440
That's awesome.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.000
And that leads perfectly to our next question.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.559
Um, how how do you avoid burnout and how do you learn to equip others?
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.480
I know uh we all have our horror stories.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.880
If you work in a ministry, man, we all have our, you know, uh those stories that we can reflect on.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.240
But uh I'd like to I'd like to hear your your take on it, Dan.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:42.640
You know, this is it's not an easy question to answer, and I don't think there's one particular thing you can do, but you have to pace yourself.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:50.160
In the church world, it's it's strange because your pastor is your pastor, and he's also your boss.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:59.200
So naturally, you're never gonna go up to your pastor who's also your boss and say, you know what, I'm feeling burnout, or spiritually, I'm not doing great.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.119
No, you're most likely not gonna do that because you could lose your job, right?
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:04.160
So what do you do?
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:13.119
You just float by week to week, you're not doing great, you don't like the job, you haven't actually sat in a church service in years.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.720
You know, I know this from experience.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.200
That's how I felt at my last church media job.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.559
I was probably at the lowest point spiritually of my life that I'd ever been at, and I worked in a church.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.640
I was surrounded by the gospel, but I never sat in church, I wasn't able to.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.720
And uh, you have to pace yourself.
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:41.359
For me personally, back then I could not work in that environment for say more than three years before I needed to transition out to a different type of job.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.480
Otherwise, I would get burnt out, right?
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:44.720
Yeah.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:59.359
And so it's important that you find a way to still spiritually get fed, uh, whether that's at your church or listening to another pastor somewhere else, uh, and to utilize your staff and your volunteers of not doing everything.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.680
Nothing's gonna be perfect that you do.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.920
Your volunteers will probably not be as good as you, and that's okay, right?
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.960
So it's it's a mixture of finding that balance.
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:24.240
I haven't figured out how to do it perfectly, but I think as long as you know when you're hitting that point and doing something before it gets too late, you know, to where you are burnt out, you know, you're looking to other things to fill that, which isn't good.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:25.359
Exactly.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:36.720
Uh I was thankfully in a place where uh we were able to talk about uh being burnt out and and all those things with with great honesty.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.039
And uh that that was a really great place to be at, you know.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:53.839
Um, and uh even even the first ministry that I worked with uh as well too was was a great place of honesty, but there wasn't really uh a strategy of like, all right, how can we get you here now?
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.559
You know, what what what kind of support do you need?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:01.519
It was more of like, okay, yeah, man, we'll pray for you and good luck.
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:11.119
But um, it's great to surround yourselves with people that have that strategy of like, okay, you're feeling like this, okay, this is what we need to do, right?
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:25.119
Um there was uh a moment where yeah, I was I was feeling burnt out, and uh they were able to provide, like, hey, um let's let's let's recruit some volunteers for you, let's help you out on how to do that.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:38.079
So that that brought some support, um, even even having a budget for um contracting as well, too, where it's like, hey, I know you've got all these projects going on, let's contract out some editors.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.039
That way, um, you it's not just all you.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.039
So that way it gives you more freedom to think creatively.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:24:01.440
I could very much relate, and I think anyone can relate if you work in ministry, is that sometimes you have your uh volunteers that just pick up and run run with things so much faster, and they just are crushing it, right?
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:06.319
And then there's some volunteers that are like, Man, we still need more development.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:16.240
I remember um speaking to my pastor at the time and told him, like, hey, I was like, hey, man, I think I'm gonna fire this volunteer.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.200
Like, this guy is like not helping out.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:28.799
And my pastor stopped me at that point and was like, hey, like, before you do that, like you probably need to dig in a little deeper.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:36.720
You probably need to spend time a little bit more with this person and discover the gold that's hidden, you know, within them.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:44.400
And this person, uh, I shifted them to more of like a producer versus a technician.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.359
And my gosh, this person just like skyrocketed.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:50.720
Skyrocketed.
00:24:50.880 --> 00:25:00.480
And if I didn't have that honest conversation with my pastor and asking for counsel, um, that that relationship would have been severed, right?
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:08.640
But um having that conversation and putting people and shifting people into a different role can help a bunch.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:24.400
And so looking back at that, I it it it it blessed him, but it also blessed me too, as well, because I was a bit I was able to avoid that burnout because I equipped the person and had the patience to equip that person.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.400
And so often we think, well, I don't have the time to really train this person, it's gonna take so much of my time.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.720
I might as well just do it myself.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:42.559
And you know, I I encourage media directors to put margin every week into developing your volunteers.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:50.480
Development can be training, it can be taking one of your um volunteers out to lunch privately once a month.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.200
That's huge.
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.079
Oh my gosh.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:59.359
Still to this day, I get old, you know, volunteers I used to have over the years thank me or remember that.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.440
When I took them out to lunch or gave them a call, I didn't want anything from them.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:09.119
I wasn't asking them to run camera this Sunday because someone uh didn't show up.
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:14.319
But those little things are so big to people that they will be there for you when you need them.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:20.480
Um so when you do those little investments and you have to make the margin, otherwise you will never have the time.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:28.960
Yeah, that that was something that took me longer than it should to learn, you know, because I ended up just doing things myself because I could do it fast.
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:34.960
But I cheated a lot of people out of serving or learning a new skill, you know?
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.400
Exactly.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.039
Uh, I know it's very cliche to say this, right?
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.839
But more is caught than is taught, right?
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:42.400
Right.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:49.440
But so I think it finally clicked in for me when I was actually seeing my comms director live it out.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:27:08.640
Or, you know, uh that pastor who I had that conversation with, living it out, spending that time with people, uh having those coffee appointments, um, having those debriefs, you know, where there were difficult debriefs, but uh it was shaped in a way where we were pastoring people.
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:22.240
I think that that's the strategy, exactly what you said, is like um how how are you spending time with your people, you know, outside of church, you know, uh on Sundays or Saturdays, right?
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:30.880
There's so much pressure and uh you're so focused on what you're doing, but um, how are you pastoring your people outside of that time?
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:31.279
Right.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.599
It's is so, so, so crucial.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.400
And when you do pastor them and you start developing in them, they become the leaders that you probably don't have.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.319
Maybe you don't have anybody on full or part-time staff under you.
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:53.599
But I promise you, if you start finding the skills and the things that God's called them to do to help you, that it will make a world of difference.
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:57.920
That could be someone that takes over scheduling for you, so you don't have to worry about it, right?
00:27:58.079 --> 00:27:58.319
Yeah.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:02.960
Uh they're in charge of that because those little things weigh on you every week in your mind, right?
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:04.400
Do I have enough camera ops?
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.079
Are they gonna show up Sunday?
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.720
I mean, I I lost a lot of sleep wondering if everybody was gonna show up tomorrow morning.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:12.640
You know, I'm sure you did too back in the day.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.119
Yeah.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:26.480
You know what's interesting, something that I learned uh towards the end of my career with my last church was uh um when you run a business, you want to interview your clients, right?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.200
Of like, hey, like what can we do better?
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.480
You know, what what did you like and X, Y, and Z.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:37.680
And I realized, hey, why don't I do this with my volunteers as well?
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.839
Um, that way we can connect in a deeper level and some great feedback.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.160
That way we can be better in our department.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:56.640
And um uh that that was so helpful for me to have those conversations of literally asking a volunteer eye to eye and asking them, hey, so do you do you like what you do?
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.799
Like, do you like serving here?
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.960
Why do you like serving here?
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:10.480
And the response that I would get was this so like life gaming, where they're just like, Yeah, you know, I I love the people that I'm around with here.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.559
Like when we do our circle ups, I feel like connected with people.
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:15.839
It's like a family.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.000
And then also I just love serving God.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:25.119
Like, I love serving God in this way, and so it brings me joy, you know, to serve on camera and and all of that.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.160
And I'm like, oh, okay, this is cool.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:36.480
Like, we're we're developing a great environment for people to experience Jesus, but then also to find community as well, too.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:54.160
So that gives me more um confidence in okay, like I can ask this person to show up uh two Sundays out of the month because I have full confidence that this person wants to be here and this is an investment in their lives.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.000
So, how can I also invest in their lives as well, too?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.000
You know, so having those conversations are are very important.
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:07.279
I think you could start seeing your volunteer team thrive when you have those conversations.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:13.519
And there's times that you may have a volunteer or two that it's really not the best place for them.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.039
It's time for them to move on.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:20.079
I remember one time I was uh brought in at a church, I was the new media director.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.319
They replaced the former one, and a lot of my volunteers didn't like that.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:32.480
So I remember one of my very first Sundays, most of my control room staff made it very clear to me they didn't like me being there.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.480
And anything I'd asked, they'd push back or they just wouldn't do it.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:37.920
You know, bring this graphic up.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:38.480
They wouldn't do it.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:40.240
They're like, no, that's not how we do it here.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.720
And so some of those people moved on.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.319
It it was time, you know.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.119
They they chose to go serve in another department.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:52.319
But then we became good friends, say a year later, you know, they respected me more.
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.319
But not everyone's gonna follow you, especially if you're the new guy in the room.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:57.039
And that's okay.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:03.920
Yeah, you know, I I don't I like to honor what say a previous person has done in the past, you know.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.680
Uh, but if you've got new ideas, you need to go.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.240
You know, there's a reason they're brought in for that position.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:18.079
And I think that's something that I've had to learn throughout the years, too, of like when you lead, people are not always gonna like how you lead.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.880
You know, when you lead, people will talk about you regardless.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.240
There's always gonna be a couple of them, yeah.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:26.720
Always.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:27.200
Yeah.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.359
Talk bad about you or talk good about you.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.519
You just have to, you know, keep your head straight and keep moving forward.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.559
Uh with you starting your own business, right?
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:45.119
Like what was the most uh surprising thing about starting your own your own business um coming coming from the ministry world?
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.240
I it was never my goal to have my own business.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.039
Never was.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.519
I enjoyed working with a lot of people.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:58.079
Um for me, it was a situation where I kind of pseudo in a way got laid off.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:07.920
And I I had a choice to either go find another position somewhere else, and I did a lot of interviewing, and I had that choice of do I go to work for these other people?
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.960
And honestly, it came down to I really don't want to.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.720
I'm sure they're good people, but I just this isn't where I feel I'm to go.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:15.839
It just doesn't feel right.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.799
And God really spoke to me and said, Dan, start your own thing.
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.240
You can literally do what you've been doing forever and help people.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.400
So I did that, but the biggest thing, one of the other things I never wanted to do was be a salesperson.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.720
Because when you have your own business, technically you're a salesperson, right?
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.799
You're pitching your products or your services to people.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:39.599
And I always like to be the number two guy.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:41.680
I was a very good number two guy.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:46.960
And so transitioning to be the head guy took a lot of skill training.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:47.680
It still does.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:52.400
I mean, I will I read books, I listened to podcasts on this.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.559
These are weak areas that I had.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:58.799
And today, those are actually the things I've enjoyed the most, right?
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:04.480
The very things that I was afraid of that literally I've said, God, I will never do that.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:06.480
Now I'm enjoying it, right?
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.799
I'm still learning, but it's fun.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:17.599
And so I've I've found that God, for me personally, God tends to take the thing that I'm scared of the most and make me face it eventually in my life.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.079
Right.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.640
So um, so yeah.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.160
That's so cool.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:32.000
What are some books that uh that you would recommend to someone who uh is wanting to exit out of the the ministry world and let's say start their own production company?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.279
When I started my company, I wasn't even pulling from resources of people that do what I do.
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.920
They were in completely different industries.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.720
And I just used some of the skills that transfer.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.279
You know, there's just typical sales things.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:59.599
Blair Enns was uh uh an author who really reshaped my thinking of uh from becoming a vendor to more of a expert, right?
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:04.160
You know, through my years, I've worked with a lot of different people, a lot of different organizations.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.559
I'm an expert in that.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.119
I really am, even though I may not think it, I am.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:17.440
So you can either be a vendor where you're selling a product, you know, here's what I'm selling for$199, or you sell your expertise.
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:20.639
And Blair was probably the one that really shaped that.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:21.920
And his books are amazing.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:30.079
So I always tell people if you're a consultant, if you own a business, read that because it'll really reshape the way you present.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:31.119
I love that.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.960
Yeah, right now, uh I did pick up the Four Conversations book that you recommended to me.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.679
And I'm almost, I'm almost done with it.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:46.719
And sheesh, man, there's some things in there where I'm like, gosh, like, okay, I made a mistake there.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:49.440
It's just like pointing out all my flaws.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.760
But uh gees, it's so good.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.519
It's it's shaping me as well.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:02.000
And if you if you use AI at all, Chat GBT, I have an agent that I've programmed with his theories into it.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:10.559
So anytime it's a sales thing, I can ask it questions and it will filter a response back through his thoughts.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:16.480
You can put somebody else in there if you like, but it's amazing um how you can learn from it.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.119
And it'll tell you, hey, you should have done this instead.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:20.400
You shouldn't have done that.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:21.599
Try this next time.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.320
It's very helpful.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:24.639
Wow, that's super, super helpful.
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:32.400
I think being a technician is very much that vendor mindset of like, tell me what to do, I'll make it for you.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.719
Done deal, boom, right?
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:47.360
But when you shift over to that expert mindset, that producer mindset, um, I'll be real with you, there's there's moments where I'm like, gee sh you doubt your own abilities.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.519
Like, man, do I really know what I'm talking about?
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:50.559
Man, do I know this?
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:51.519
And blah, blah, blah.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:36:04.079
You know, but then when when you build that confidence again and you and you look back at your history of how you've problem solved with all these other companies and clients, you're like, no, yeah, I I do have that confidence.
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:10.320
Let's move towards this as an expert because I do bring value to people, right?
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:16.960
So I think um having that mindset shift is is is incredible.
00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:22.320
You can't be technicians, you know, um uh for the rest of our lives, you know.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:28.559
There's got to be some levels up of like how how to grow and how to expand in in leadership.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:36.480
Um what's what's some advice that you would give to a church media leader who wants to grow into leadership?
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.199
Get out of the bubble you're in.
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:47.119
Because if when I say get out of it, expand your view out of your church bubble because every day you're gonna get busy.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:49.679
Sunday's always gonna come around that on the bench.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:37:02.559
But if you don't intentionally look for, let's say, conferences to go to, and I'm not talking tech conferences like uh NAB, NAB is great, but that's not necessarily gonna take you to the next level.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:07.920
Find conferences that are gonna grow your leadership, uh, working with volunteers.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:12.960
So you have to start thinking differently.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:20.000
And I I promise you, if you do this, if you start meeting other people who are doing what you're doing, they're thinking differently, you're gonna start to grow.
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.280
You're actually gonna start getting more excited about the job you're in.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.039
If you've been there for maybe three years, you're burnout, you think you've hit the ceiling on your growth.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.639
No, I think there's more growth that you can do, right?
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:44.559
I've seen church media leaders move up from maybe they're just the media director where they've been promoted to creative director, executive pastor, if they want to go that route.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:50.400
There's many places you can grow and many places within the church if you want to do that.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:55.280
You don't just have to stay being a to-do guy, you know, an editor.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.559
And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:00.000
And there's different seasons in our life where God has us in there.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.639
I remember I used to love editing, and that was my thing, you know?
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:11.280
And then God moved me into maybe a little bit more leadership where no, I didn't enjoy editing like I used to.
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.840
I can still do it, but it's not my thing anymore.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.280
Or running camera, right?
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:16.480
I used to do that.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.880
Now, hey, there's people that can do it better than me.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.360
I'm gonna let them do it, and I'll be the producer on it.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.840
So look at those shifts through life.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.639
And there's that's natural to do that.
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:28.559
So true.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:36.719
Um I would advocate for church media directors to move into those pastoral roles as well, too.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:55.519
Because I feel that uh if you're able to, let's say, bulk up your pastoral team and someone who has technical knowledge of how things run and how things run in production, my gosh, like that would bring so much value to the church.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:00.960
Uh, because you have someone that has that experience, that technical experience.
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.320
That way the communication could be better, you know?
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:09.920
Of like, yeah, I can communicate this technical stuff, but into a far greater mission.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:15.519
Like, what does it look like in in the mission of the church that we're trying to do?
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:57.760
Um, I know for me personally, I'm I'm vouching it personally because uh one of my pastors was that person, you know, someone who had that technical ability, someone that was on the ground of like setup teardown church back in the day, all the way to like scenic design, all the way to like lighting design, like all these areas where as an early church, you know, you're doing these little things here and there to fill in the gaps, and and um and he he became someone who was uh our executive pastor at the time and really really vouched for us and really understood like you know our point of view of things.
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:00.559
Dan, is there anything else that I've missed?
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.599
Um I I'd love to have you um tell us where we can find you.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:06.639
Absolutely.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:15.840
Uh I host a podcast as well called the Producer's Seat Podcast, where we're talking about this very stuff helping church media leaders think like producers.
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.239
You can uh find it on YouTube.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:22.400
YouTube is uh DRW Media Works, you can find me there.
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:28.159
And then the producer's seat is on your favorite audio platform you can find there as well.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:37.280
And uh yeah, uh if you're looking for maybe media coaching, maybe you're in a church and you want to rise up to that next level, I'd love to talk to you and help you.
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:42.320
And you can go to my website to find that, drwmediaworks.com.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:43.920
That's awesome.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:51.280
Yes, and I totally recommend Dan for anyone who is struggling in their department at church.
00:40:51.360 --> 00:41:00.000
Uh, Dan is someone who has brought so much value to me personally, and man, um, so much value to other organizations as well.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.880
So, Dan, thanks so much, man, for your time.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:08.159
Um, any last minute things that you would like to say uh before we close our time together?
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:14.800
Whatever you happen to be doing, whatever position you're in, you're not stuck there for life.
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:16.800
Take advantage of where you're at today.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.800
God has you, I believe, where you're at right now for a purpose.
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.800
Otherwise, I don't think you'd be there.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.840
So ask God, hey, what is it that I can do?
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.400
Maybe I need to start looking at things differently.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:35.280
Maybe I need to move, instead of my eyes being down at the technical side, maybe I need to lift them up and see the big picture.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.599
How can I contribute to the big picture?
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:39.760
So don't see yourself as just the tech.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.559
God has more inside of you than you might realize.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.840
So find that and start thinking differently.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:47.519
Come on, awesome.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.480
Thanks so much, Dan.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:49.440
Appreciate your time, man.
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:49.920
Thank you.
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:53.280
Well, hey, thanks for tuning in to the episode.
00:41:53.519 --> 00:42:04.239
If you want to know a little bit more about Dan, check out drwmediaworks.com and you're gonna discover more about his podcast that he has called the Producer Seat.
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:18.000
I'm also gonna put a link in the bio as well, too, in the notes, um uh to his YouTube channel as well, too, where you can find the video form of his podcast where he provides a lot of valuable information for you.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:27.360
Hey, if you have any questions on the podcast or if you have any ideas, go ahead and send it to hello at revealvideo.vegas.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.960
Again, that's hello at revealvideo.vegas.
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:32.239
Thanks for tuning in.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.440
And if this was helpful for you, go ahead and share it with a friend.
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:37.920
Alrighty, we'll see you soon.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:10.560
Well, you know, technical skills get you hired a lot of times, whether you're in a church situation, if you know how to set up and run audio, lighting, whatever it is, that gets you in the room.
00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:18.960
But when you start making that shift to thinking like a producer, that gets you a seat at tables and meetings that you would never be in before.
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:26.000
Maybe it's with uh VPs uh or or executive staff of a church talking through things.
00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.760
They start wanting you in meetings that you were never in before.
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:37.119
So it's not only affecting your team, it's it can affect you and your career as well.
00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.320
Hello and welcome to the Success and Focus Podcast.
00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:46.880
My name is Danny Salazar, lead filmmaker at Reveal Video, and also host of this podcast.
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:52.159
I'm excited about a conversation that we're gonna have right now with my friend Dan Wathen.
00:00:52.560 --> 00:01:05.280
He is a Hollywood producer and founder of his own production company called DRW Media Works, where he helps nonprofits and churches just get it right with their media.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.519
So I'm excited for this conversation.
00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.799
Dan just brings so much wisdom to the table.
00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:12.799
Let's go ahead and jump in.
00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:21.040
How did you get started in this whole like video producer side of things?
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:26.879
I feel like I'm a bit odd in that, that I knew super young what I wanted to do.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:37.280
Uh to make a long story short, back in probably I was probably maybe seven or eight, um, my I have a handicapped brother.
00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:45.680
And when he was born, my parents was were watching uh the 700 Club, which is on CBN at the time, and they called in for prayer.
00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:50.239
And immediately the next day, my brother started doing things he had never done.
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:58.719
And so they sent a film crew all the way to Texas, and this was back in the day when they had a lighting guy they'd sent, an audio guy, camera guy, a producer.
00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:07.359
So for a solid week, as a kid, I'm watching this film crew shoot all types of interviews and things.
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.639
And it was at that point I said, I want to do that.
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:12.639
I was just mesmerized by it.
00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:16.479
So several years later, my parents relocated to Oklahoma.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:22.960
And the church I went to at the time, Victory Christian Center, uh, created their own television program.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:24.719
So they purchased TV cameras.
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:29.199
So I'm sitting in the auditorium and I see TV cameras pop up.
00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.319
You know, there, there's one in centerline, there's, you know, all over the place.
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.280
And I'm I'm just staring at these things the whole service.
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.039
And my parents noticed it and they said, Dan, is that something you'd like to do?
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:39.840
And I said, Yeah.
00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:43.120
But I was just probably 15, 16 at the time.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:47.759
So they talked to the media director, and he said, Absolutely.
00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:53.120
So that ex that I think it was the next Sunday, they put me on a camera, put the headset on.
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.879
I was running the audience camera, so I'm practically on stage facing the audience doing this.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.240
I'm in heaven, you know.
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.319
I'm hearing this person telling me what shots to get, you know.
00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:06.479
My Zoom was probably super fast.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:08.800
I had didn't have any control over it, you know.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:11.439
I was I was new, but I'm this is what I wanted to do.
00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:21.439
So it was at that point, I literally every Sunday, I was either running camera or I was back in the, they had a production truck watching the director do everything.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:29.919
And uh I remember one Sunday I was in the control room with him, and his wife went into labor, and he spins around, and I'm the only one in there.
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.840
And he said, Dan, get up here and take over.
00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:38.960
So I put the headset on and I just start mimicking what I had seen him do all those previous Sundays, ready camera one, take one.
00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.960
And these are all adults on camera, so they're probably thinking, What's going on here?
00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.319
I don't I don't need a 15, 16-year-old telling me what shots to get.
00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:46.639
Yeah.
00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:55.439
But that next week they called my parents and said, Can we put Dan on part-time staff at the church and direct every service?
00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:03.360
And this was back when you had a Wednesday night service, you had two or three Sunday morning, a Sunday night.
00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:12.240
So this became like a boot camp for directing for everything, editing, how to wire cables, how to set up the cables, the cameras.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.280
And uh that's how I got into it.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:21.439
And literally from that point, I think legally I was 16 years old to get a paycheck, you had to be.
00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:26.639
And from that point, I have always had a check in media.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.759
You know, how I get paid is through media.
00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.639
So I'm very uh grateful for it.
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:40.399
From the teenage years in church, I went on to uh work for several large ministries that had television departments.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:49.279
So I produced and directed for their teams, and I also served on staff at uh two to three churches as their full-time media director.
00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:56.560
And it was about 14, 15 years ago that God just really put on my heart to relocate to the Los Angeles area.
00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:01.199
I had only visited here one time, and I actually didn't really like the city.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.879
It wasn't that, hey, I want to move to this really nice place.
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:13.279
Uh I had come here for vacation with a friend, went home, and there was just something that dropped in my spirit that said, Dan, you're gonna be moving there.
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.160
And uh I just knew that I knew.
00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:21.120
So it took about three years for that to actually happen because it wasn't an easy thing.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:25.279
I had to sell my house, you know, relocate, find another place.
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.920
And um, but I just knew God wanted me here for some reason.
00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:36.879
So I I stepped out of the role, the full-time role of a church that I was in and went to a freelance position.
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:42.240
I was also helping churches, and it was there that I had met one of my mentors.
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:48.000
He was, he didn't even know he's a mentor to me, but I had read his books and listened to his EDs and things.
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:53.439
It was Phil Cook, who, if you don't know Phil, he's kind of the Christian media guru guru at the time.
00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:56.399
So I took him out to lunch and you know, I was in awe.
00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:56.720
Wow.
00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:58.399
Got to go in their office and everything.
00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:58.639
Yeah.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:01.680
Took him out to lunch and said, Hey, I'm in town.
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.319
If, you know, if I can ever help you guys, let me know.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:12.560
So a few weeks, months passed, and uh he started bringing me in on some small projects with churches, reviewing their television programs.
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:15.120
I would watch the show and type up notes for them.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.959
And then it just kind of merged into a part-time position and then eventually a full-time position.
00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:32.480
So I was executive producer for his company, Cook Media Group, for a little over 11 years, uh running all projects, budgets, churches, a little bit of everything.
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:38.240
And then transitioned a couple of years ago into my own company, DRW Media Works.
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.560
That's my initials, Daniel Ray Wathan.
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:42.720
So Wathen is such a weird name to say.
00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:44.959
I thought there's no way I can name it after myself.
00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.199
So I thought the initials would work.
00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:56.480
So I do a similar thing, reaching out and helping uh church media directors specifically in what they do, because I get what they do.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.399
It's not an easy job, as you know, Danny, you've served in that position before.
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.399
You kind of feel forgotten a lot of times.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.439
You've got this ton of work, you don't know how to get through it.
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:14.079
And so I help with coaching them as well as their pastors in shifting from thinking about just the tech, because it's so easy.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:20.879
You get bombarded of, I gotta fix this camera for Sunday, I gotta redo this TriAx cable, fix this, fix that.
00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.759
And you lose sight of the big picture of things.
00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.720
And what that really is, is thinking like a producer.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.879
A producer is is thinking about everything.
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.759
He's thinking about the tech, and he's also thinking about big picture.
00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:38.639
What does what projects do we need to be doing to reach people better?
00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:42.879
And it took me a long time to start thinking that way, right?
00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:57.040
Of just m moving out of the, okay, I gotta edit this today, what's the next thing, what's the next thing, into expanding my thinking to think like a producer, which really helps in all areas of your life, right?
00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:57.839
Yeah.
00:07:58.079 --> 00:07:59.600
And and can you expound on that?
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.240
Like, what does it mean to think like a producer?
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:11.279
Because just like what you were saying, like I remember being so like bogged down, my head stuck on my computer, doing the editing thing.
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:16.399
But there came a point where I had to break out and grow.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:25.279
So what what does that mean to like think like a producer versus just an editor or just uh you know a technical director on Sunday?
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.959
So a technician focuses on tasks, right?
00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:38.960
I have to do this today, I need to edit the video announcements, I need to set up cameras for Sunday, for Wednesday night, maybe the children's ministry need a TV setup.
00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:40.240
These are tasks.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.600
These are uh yes, yes, they're important, right?
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:49.679
I'm not saying they're not important, but producers are focusing on what's the outcome of things, right?
00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:56.639
It's it's yes, you're still looking at the task, but you've broadened it out into what's the outcomes?
00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:05.039
Who let's say the pastor gives you a video to edit, uh thinking about, okay, where is this gonna be played at?
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:06.159
Is it gonna be in church?
00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:07.519
Is it on television?
00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:12.399
And how can we best produce something that's reaching those specific people?
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:13.759
What do we want to say?
00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:15.759
Who are we gonna interview for it?
00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:30.240
So instead of just going along with what everybody's given you, you ask questions, you push back a little bit, not in a bad way, but you ask questions to really determine what the outcome is going to be of the piece.
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:35.360
So a producer is living between the vision and execution of things, right?
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:41.360
And a lot of times, maybe you're not the head person in your department, maybe you're just an editor.
00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:50.320
But if you notice, probably your boss or whoever that person is above you, they're thinking about that vision and the execution, probably more than you are, right?
00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:55.200
And so start watching and listening and how they're reacting to things.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.279
Uh, maybe you're not in that producer position today, but you can still learn a lot by watching, right?
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:10.399
Producers think about people, they're thinking about budgets, timelines, who the audience is, and really the mission of everything.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:17.679
Did it, Danny, in your position when you worked for churches, were you thinking of that automatically or did it come with time?
00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:19.200
Man, it came with time.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:37.440
So, like the value that I brought to our department was uh just a fresh lens of creativity, you know, of like creative ideas, creative films, and and uh back in the day, uh uh depth of field, the shallow depth of field with the 5D Mark IIs were such a thing.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:42.559
And I brought that in into our department, and uh it just blossomed, you know.
00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:45.440
It was like, whoa, like we can do this and do that.
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:50.799
Um but uh I did hit a wall, you know, where I was doing everything.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:11:02.480
Probably about maybe five years ago, I was working at another church, and um uh our our communication director uh at the time who's still a good friend of mine.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:09.600
Um he bluntly said that hey, um no, nobody cares about like the videos that you're making, you know.
00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.879
And I'm like, yo, whoa, dude, like that's really mean, you know, for you to say that.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:16.639
Like that hurts my heart, you know.
00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:20.799
Like I put so much blood and sweat into the projects that I do, right?
00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:29.679
But he gave me more context, is that like you really need to create stories that are able to draw people in.
00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:40.159
Like you want to make sure that you craft your stories where uh you you do understand the the final output and and really think about the strategy of your videos, right?
00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:54.399
So um just like what you said is that that's that's putting that producer mindset, that producer hat on of not just making pretty films, you know, pretty can take you so far, and artistic can take you so far, right?
00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:56.559
But it's about drawing people in.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:01.919
And I think uh working at a church, there's even a greater purpose to wanting to draw people in.
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.799
So that way they can know who Jesus is, right?
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.000
Um, so there's a lot more purpose in that.
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:21.039
So for me, that's when I finally connected the dots and really started stepping into a producer mindset where I discovered, okay, I can't do this all by myself, you know.
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.120
Um, I need to bring volunteers.
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:28.240
I have more of a pastor's heart, uh, which I've discovered through ministry throughout the years.
00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:33.039
And I just love shepherding people, I love teaching people as well, too.
00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:47.440
So I was really able to step out in that gift as well, too, and really see myself and other volunteers, even younger volunteers, of like, whoa, that kid was the same age as I was when I started operating camera for church.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.080
So let me invest a little bit more into this kid.
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:59.440
You know, I'm sure with your experiences too, like it really shapes how you train people, how you pastor people, how you um, how you bring life to people.
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:10.399
I've always, you know, technical skills get you hired a lot of times, whether you're in a church situation, if you know how to set up and run audio lighting, whatever it is, that gets you in the room.
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:18.799
But when you start making that shift to thinking like a producer, that gets you a seat at tables and meetings that you would never be in before.
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:25.840
Maybe it's with uh VPs uh or or executive staff of a church talking through things.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.600
They start wanting you in meetings that you were never in before.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:36.799
So it's not only affecting your team, it's it can affect you and your career as well.
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:41.679
Because, in my opinion, I know for me, I didn't want to stay just being the tech.
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.399
I mean, as you get older, you get tired of running cameras all the time.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:45.440
You want something else.
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:54.639
And if you really want to move up, if you want to have your own business, it really takes that mind shift of moving from tech to producer.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:57.360
And church media prepared me for that.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:10.480
Even, you know, having my own company now, uh, it taught me everything, you know, from leadership, like you say, working with volunteers, problem solving, communication, uh, being resourceful with not a lot, right?
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:19.360
I know a couple of the churches I work for, man, we were lucky to just have an avid editor, you know, a machine to edit on back in the day.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.320
And so much of the stuff I had to do myself.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:22.960
Yeah.
00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:30.000
So every Sunday was a deadline in the church world that prepared both of us really for what we're doing today.
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.159
And and that that leads to my next question.
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:38.320
So, like, why do these creative teams often struggle to communicate with leadership?
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:52.399
You know, the the creative world kind of speaks their own language, uh, especially media people like uh we may say, what is the video wait for monitor read, or what's the frame rate of these things?
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:58.559
So every I would say industry has their own internal language that they use.
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:09.440
And so when we're trying to communicate, let's say with a pastor or a client that's in a completely different field, if we try to use that same language with them, it doesn't always click.
00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:23.279
In fact, in in the church world, I've seen where media directors will use, you know, their tech lingo all the time with their pastor, and their pastor just doesn't enjoy talking to them because they don't understand what they're saying.
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:24.240
They don't get it.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.840
And so they tend to avoid the person over time, I've seen.
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:40.159
But when you learn to shift your language and go from technical language and learn to speak more of what an outcome would be, say if, hey, let's say you do need new cameras for your sanctuary.
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:48.960
And instead of going in with the typical, you know, lingo, these new cameras are gonna do so many lines of resolution, whatever.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.039
Speak the language of your pastor.
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.080
What's the outcome?
00:15:52.159 --> 00:16:02.080
You know, pastor, by getting this equipment, we're gonna be able to reach more people on the live stream, which could potentially bring more people into the church.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.159
And when that happens, what happens?
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.080
They start serving, giving, everything increases, right?
00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:11.200
So it's not just, I want you to sign a check and buy this.
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.679
I'm gonna tell you what the outcome could be and probably will be if we make this.
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:17.440
So pastors care about that.
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.759
They care about mission, the reach, engagement, growth, and impact.
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:24.879
So learn to talk the language of your client.
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:35.840
If you're dealing with a business person, tell them how doing these videos for social media or these testimony pieces are gonna drive new customers and new clients to that business.
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:40.080
So learn to speak the language of who you're dealing with.
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:50.159
I worked with uh a church recently where the church was signing off on everything the media director wanted.
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.080
They were buying, they had built this new studio.
00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:52.799
It was great.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.360
That's awesome.
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.759
New cameras, things that you would never normally get, which was super cool.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.200
But but the guy refused to use any of it until everything was in.
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:08.400
And they were having to do it in stages and he wouldn't use the studio.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:09.839
It was a beautiful studio.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.480
He still wouldn't use it, he wouldn't use any of the cameras.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.359
And eventually he lost his job because he still wanted more things, right?
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:20.319
He's like, if I get I need these things to actually use it.
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.839
And the board and stuff got tired of writing checks because the way he framed it wasn't right.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.400
So that's one extreme of not doing it correctly, right?
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:38.319
I think uh you can get lost again with the technicality things, the uh the nice shiny toys and stuff.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:48.240
But uh if you lose the mindset of the mission of the bigger picture, then uh you might you might be walking out of that door sooner than later.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:54.240
Aaron Powell You know, one of the realizations I came to, this was like uh probably in the early 2000s.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.400
This was the first time I was the guy.
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.640
I was the media director in a church.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:06.319
They paid me a good salary, moved out of state, took it, and the pastor told me, he said, I'm bringing you in for one main reason.
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:09.440
I want you to take my television show national.
00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.000
I want you to do upgrades, whatever you got to do.
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.359
So, okay, I can do that.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.119
I've I've worked in that before.
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.119
And uh I think I had one or two part-time staff members.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:21.440
So I'm doing my thing, I knew the tech.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:30.640
A year went by and it was actually my birthday, and the pastor called me into the office to sit down, and I thought he was gonna say happy birthday, Dan.
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:36.640
No, he said, Dan, I hired you for one reason, and that hasn't happened.
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.279
You have not done what I hired you to do.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.039
And I thought he was gonna fire me right there.
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:41.759
He didn't.
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.960
And it was I was crushed, I was devastated.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:50.000
I had never been told that, or I felt like I disappointed someone.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:57.279
And I walked out of that room, I think I was in my 30s and uh maybe early 20s, I don't remember.
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.559
But I remember calling uh my family and saying, I gotta find another job.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.559
This this isn't working, you know.
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:15.200
I was out, and my mom called her pastor, different city, and that pastor called me and he talked to me and he said, I'm gonna send you some books and tapes.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:20.880
And it was actually John Maxwell material, and this was back when John was just kind of getting popular.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:27.599
So he sent me these books about leadership and uh all you know, CD of the month club, all this stuff.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.640
And I started listening to it, and I learned that I don't have to be the one that does everything.
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:41.519
Because I always felt if if I was hired to do something, I would look bad if I actually called someone else and brought them in to help or anything.
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.240
But I learned that was actually what you're supposed to do.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:49.680
I wasn't supposed to do everything myself, and that was a huge shift in my life.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.160
And, you know, fast forward a few months, then we went on national television.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.359
I stayed there for three years, loved the job, didn't want to leave.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.880
You know, it was a great experience.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.599
But that was a huge shift for me of leadership and utilizing your team, and you don't have to do everything.
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:06.720
You're not the guy.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.480
You know, build a team around you that can do great things.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:11.440
That's awesome.
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.000
And that leads perfectly to our next question.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.559
Um, how how do you avoid burnout and how do you learn to equip others?
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.480
I know uh we all have our horror stories.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.880
If you work in a ministry, man, we all have our, you know, uh those stories that we can reflect on.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.240
But uh I'd like to I'd like to hear your your take on it, Dan.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:42.640
You know, this is it's not an easy question to answer, and I don't think there's one particular thing you can do, but you have to pace yourself.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:50.160
In the church world, it's it's strange because your pastor is your pastor, and he's also your boss.
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:59.200
So naturally, you're never gonna go up to your pastor who's also your boss and say, you know what, I'm feeling burnout, or spiritually, I'm not doing great.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.119
No, you're most likely not gonna do that because you could lose your job, right?
00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:04.160
So what do you do?
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:13.119
You just float by week to week, you're not doing great, you don't like the job, you haven't actually sat in a church service in years.
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.720
You know, I know this from experience.
00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.200
That's how I felt at my last church media job.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.559
I was probably at the lowest point spiritually of my life that I'd ever been at, and I worked in a church.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.640
I was surrounded by the gospel, but I never sat in church, I wasn't able to.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.720
And uh, you have to pace yourself.
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:41.359
For me personally, back then I could not work in that environment for say more than three years before I needed to transition out to a different type of job.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.480
Otherwise, I would get burnt out, right?
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:44.720
Yeah.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:59.359
And so it's important that you find a way to still spiritually get fed, uh, whether that's at your church or listening to another pastor somewhere else, uh, and to utilize your staff and your volunteers of not doing everything.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.680
Nothing's gonna be perfect that you do.
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.920
Your volunteers will probably not be as good as you, and that's okay, right?
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.960
So it's it's a mixture of finding that balance.
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:24.240
I haven't figured out how to do it perfectly, but I think as long as you know when you're hitting that point and doing something before it gets too late, you know, to where you are burnt out, you know, you're looking to other things to fill that, which isn't good.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:25.359
Exactly.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:36.720
Uh I was thankfully in a place where uh we were able to talk about uh being burnt out and and all those things with with great honesty.
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.039
And uh that that was a really great place to be at, you know.
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:53.839
Um, and uh even even the first ministry that I worked with uh as well too was was a great place of honesty, but there wasn't really uh a strategy of like, all right, how can we get you here now?
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.559
You know, what what what kind of support do you need?
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:01.519
It was more of like, okay, yeah, man, we'll pray for you and good luck.
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:11.119
But um, it's great to surround yourselves with people that have that strategy of like, okay, you're feeling like this, okay, this is what we need to do, right?
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:25.119
Um there was uh a moment where yeah, I was I was feeling burnt out, and uh they were able to provide, like, hey, um let's let's let's recruit some volunteers for you, let's help you out on how to do that.
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:38.079
So that that brought some support, um, even even having a budget for um contracting as well, too, where it's like, hey, I know you've got all these projects going on, let's contract out some editors.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.039
That way, um, you it's not just all you.
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.039
So that way it gives you more freedom to think creatively.
00:23:45.200 --> 00:24:01.440
I could very much relate, and I think anyone can relate if you work in ministry, is that sometimes you have your uh volunteers that just pick up and run run with things so much faster, and they just are crushing it, right?
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:06.319
And then there's some volunteers that are like, Man, we still need more development.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:16.240
I remember um speaking to my pastor at the time and told him, like, hey, I was like, hey, man, I think I'm gonna fire this volunteer.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.200
Like, this guy is like not helping out.
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:28.799
And my pastor stopped me at that point and was like, hey, like, before you do that, like you probably need to dig in a little deeper.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:36.720
You probably need to spend time a little bit more with this person and discover the gold that's hidden, you know, within them.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:44.400
And this person, uh, I shifted them to more of like a producer versus a technician.
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:49.359
And my gosh, this person just like skyrocketed.
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:50.720
Skyrocketed.
00:24:50.880 --> 00:25:00.480
And if I didn't have that honest conversation with my pastor and asking for counsel, um, that that relationship would have been severed, right?
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:08.640
But um having that conversation and putting people and shifting people into a different role can help a bunch.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:24.400
And so looking back at that, I it it it it blessed him, but it also blessed me too, as well, because I was a bit I was able to avoid that burnout because I equipped the person and had the patience to equip that person.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:30.400
And so often we think, well, I don't have the time to really train this person, it's gonna take so much of my time.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.720
I might as well just do it myself.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:42.559
And you know, I I encourage media directors to put margin every week into developing your volunteers.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:50.480
Development can be training, it can be taking one of your um volunteers out to lunch privately once a month.
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.200
That's huge.
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.079
Oh my gosh.
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:59.359
Still to this day, I get old, you know, volunteers I used to have over the years thank me or remember that.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.440
When I took them out to lunch or gave them a call, I didn't want anything from them.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:09.119
I wasn't asking them to run camera this Sunday because someone uh didn't show up.
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:14.319
But those little things are so big to people that they will be there for you when you need them.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:20.480
Um so when you do those little investments and you have to make the margin, otherwise you will never have the time.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:28.960
Yeah, that that was something that took me longer than it should to learn, you know, because I ended up just doing things myself because I could do it fast.
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:34.960
But I cheated a lot of people out of serving or learning a new skill, you know?
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.400
Exactly.
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.039
Uh, I know it's very cliche to say this, right?
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.839
But more is caught than is taught, right?
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:42.400
Right.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:49.440
But so I think it finally clicked in for me when I was actually seeing my comms director live it out.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:27:08.640
Or, you know, uh that pastor who I had that conversation with, living it out, spending that time with people, uh having those coffee appointments, um, having those debriefs, you know, where there were difficult debriefs, but uh it was shaped in a way where we were pastoring people.
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:22.240
I think that that's the strategy, exactly what you said, is like um how how are you spending time with your people, you know, outside of church, you know, uh on Sundays or Saturdays, right?
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:30.880
There's so much pressure and uh you're so focused on what you're doing, but um, how are you pastoring your people outside of that time?
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:31.279
Right.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.599
It's is so, so, so crucial.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.400
And when you do pastor them and you start developing in them, they become the leaders that you probably don't have.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.319
Maybe you don't have anybody on full or part-time staff under you.
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:53.599
But I promise you, if you start finding the skills and the things that God's called them to do to help you, that it will make a world of difference.
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:57.920
That could be someone that takes over scheduling for you, so you don't have to worry about it, right?
00:27:58.079 --> 00:27:58.319
Yeah.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:02.960
Uh they're in charge of that because those little things weigh on you every week in your mind, right?
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:04.400
Do I have enough camera ops?
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.079
Are they gonna show up Sunday?
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.720
I mean, I I lost a lot of sleep wondering if everybody was gonna show up tomorrow morning.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:12.640
You know, I'm sure you did too back in the day.
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.119
Yeah.
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:26.480
You know what's interesting, something that I learned uh towards the end of my career with my last church was uh um when you run a business, you want to interview your clients, right?
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.200
Of like, hey, like what can we do better?
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.480
You know, what what did you like and X, Y, and Z.
00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:37.680
And I realized, hey, why don't I do this with my volunteers as well?
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.839
Um, that way we can connect in a deeper level and some great feedback.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.160
That way we can be better in our department.
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:56.640
And um uh that that was so helpful for me to have those conversations of literally asking a volunteer eye to eye and asking them, hey, so do you do you like what you do?
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.799
Like, do you like serving here?
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.960
Why do you like serving here?
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:10.480
And the response that I would get was this so like life gaming, where they're just like, Yeah, you know, I I love the people that I'm around with here.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:14.559
Like when we do our circle ups, I feel like connected with people.
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:15.839
It's like a family.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.000
And then also I just love serving God.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:25.119
Like, I love serving God in this way, and so it brings me joy, you know, to serve on camera and and all of that.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.160
And I'm like, oh, okay, this is cool.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:36.480
Like, we're we're developing a great environment for people to experience Jesus, but then also to find community as well, too.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:54.160
So that gives me more um confidence in okay, like I can ask this person to show up uh two Sundays out of the month because I have full confidence that this person wants to be here and this is an investment in their lives.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.000
So, how can I also invest in their lives as well, too?
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.000
You know, so having those conversations are are very important.
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:07.279
I think you could start seeing your volunteer team thrive when you have those conversations.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:13.519
And there's times that you may have a volunteer or two that it's really not the best place for them.
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.039
It's time for them to move on.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:20.079
I remember one time I was uh brought in at a church, I was the new media director.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.319
They replaced the former one, and a lot of my volunteers didn't like that.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:32.480
So I remember one of my very first Sundays, most of my control room staff made it very clear to me they didn't like me being there.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.480
And anything I'd asked, they'd push back or they just wouldn't do it.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:37.920
You know, bring this graphic up.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:38.480
They wouldn't do it.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:40.240
They're like, no, that's not how we do it here.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.720
And so some of those people moved on.
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.319
It it was time, you know.
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.119
They they chose to go serve in another department.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:52.319
But then we became good friends, say a year later, you know, they respected me more.
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.319
But not everyone's gonna follow you, especially if you're the new guy in the room.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:57.039
And that's okay.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:03.920
Yeah, you know, I I don't I like to honor what say a previous person has done in the past, you know.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.680
Uh, but if you've got new ideas, you need to go.
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.240
You know, there's a reason they're brought in for that position.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:18.079
And I think that's something that I've had to learn throughout the years, too, of like when you lead, people are not always gonna like how you lead.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.880
You know, when you lead, people will talk about you regardless.
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.240
There's always gonna be a couple of them, yeah.
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:26.720
Always.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:27.200
Yeah.
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.359
Talk bad about you or talk good about you.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.519
You just have to, you know, keep your head straight and keep moving forward.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.559
Uh with you starting your own business, right?
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:45.119
Like what was the most uh surprising thing about starting your own your own business um coming coming from the ministry world?
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.240
I it was never my goal to have my own business.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.039
Never was.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.519
I enjoyed working with a lot of people.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:58.079
Um for me, it was a situation where I kind of pseudo in a way got laid off.
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:07.920
And I I had a choice to either go find another position somewhere else, and I did a lot of interviewing, and I had that choice of do I go to work for these other people?
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.960
And honestly, it came down to I really don't want to.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.720
I'm sure they're good people, but I just this isn't where I feel I'm to go.
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:15.839
It just doesn't feel right.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:18.799
And God really spoke to me and said, Dan, start your own thing.
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.240
You can literally do what you've been doing forever and help people.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.400
So I did that, but the biggest thing, one of the other things I never wanted to do was be a salesperson.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.720
Because when you have your own business, technically you're a salesperson, right?
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.799
You're pitching your products or your services to people.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:39.599
And I always like to be the number two guy.
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:41.680
I was a very good number two guy.
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:46.960
And so transitioning to be the head guy took a lot of skill training.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:47.680
It still does.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:52.400
I mean, I will I read books, I listened to podcasts on this.
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.559
These are weak areas that I had.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:58.799
And today, those are actually the things I've enjoyed the most, right?
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:04.480
The very things that I was afraid of that literally I've said, God, I will never do that.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:06.480
Now I'm enjoying it, right?
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:08.799
I'm still learning, but it's fun.
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:17.599
And so I've I've found that God, for me personally, God tends to take the thing that I'm scared of the most and make me face it eventually in my life.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.079
Right.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.640
So um, so yeah.
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:22.160
That's so cool.
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:32.000
What are some books that uh that you would recommend to someone who uh is wanting to exit out of the the ministry world and let's say start their own production company?
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.279
When I started my company, I wasn't even pulling from resources of people that do what I do.
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.920
They were in completely different industries.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:44.720
And I just used some of the skills that transfer.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.279
You know, there's just typical sales things.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:59.599
Blair Enns was uh uh an author who really reshaped my thinking of uh from becoming a vendor to more of a expert, right?
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:04.160
You know, through my years, I've worked with a lot of different people, a lot of different organizations.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.559
I'm an expert in that.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.119
I really am, even though I may not think it, I am.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:17.440
So you can either be a vendor where you're selling a product, you know, here's what I'm selling for$199, or you sell your expertise.
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:20.639
And Blair was probably the one that really shaped that.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:21.920
And his books are amazing.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:30.079
So I always tell people if you're a consultant, if you own a business, read that because it'll really reshape the way you present.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:31.119
I love that.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.960
Yeah, right now, uh I did pick up the Four Conversations book that you recommended to me.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.679
And I'm almost, I'm almost done with it.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:46.719
And sheesh, man, there's some things in there where I'm like, gosh, like, okay, I made a mistake there.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:49.440
It's just like pointing out all my flaws.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.760
But uh gees, it's so good.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:53.519
It's it's shaping me as well.
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:02.000
And if you if you use AI at all, Chat GBT, I have an agent that I've programmed with his theories into it.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:10.559
So anytime it's a sales thing, I can ask it questions and it will filter a response back through his thoughts.
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:16.480
You can put somebody else in there if you like, but it's amazing um how you can learn from it.
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.119
And it'll tell you, hey, you should have done this instead.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:20.400
You shouldn't have done that.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:21.599
Try this next time.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.320
It's very helpful.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:24.639
Wow, that's super, super helpful.
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:32.400
I think being a technician is very much that vendor mindset of like, tell me what to do, I'll make it for you.
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.719
Done deal, boom, right?
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:47.360
But when you shift over to that expert mindset, that producer mindset, um, I'll be real with you, there's there's moments where I'm like, gee sh you doubt your own abilities.
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.519
Like, man, do I really know what I'm talking about?
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:50.559
Man, do I know this?
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:51.519
And blah, blah, blah.
00:35:51.679 --> 00:36:04.079
You know, but then when when you build that confidence again and you and you look back at your history of how you've problem solved with all these other companies and clients, you're like, no, yeah, I I do have that confidence.
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:10.320
Let's move towards this as an expert because I do bring value to people, right?
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:16.960
So I think um having that mindset shift is is is incredible.
00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:22.320
You can't be technicians, you know, um uh for the rest of our lives, you know.
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:28.559
There's got to be some levels up of like how how to grow and how to expand in in leadership.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:36.480
Um what's what's some advice that you would give to a church media leader who wants to grow into leadership?
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:39.199
Get out of the bubble you're in.
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:47.119
Because if when I say get out of it, expand your view out of your church bubble because every day you're gonna get busy.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:49.679
Sunday's always gonna come around that on the bench.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:37:02.559
But if you don't intentionally look for, let's say, conferences to go to, and I'm not talking tech conferences like uh NAB, NAB is great, but that's not necessarily gonna take you to the next level.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:07.920
Find conferences that are gonna grow your leadership, uh, working with volunteers.
00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:12.960
So you have to start thinking differently.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:20.000
And I I promise you, if you do this, if you start meeting other people who are doing what you're doing, they're thinking differently, you're gonna start to grow.
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.280
You're actually gonna start getting more excited about the job you're in.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.039
If you've been there for maybe three years, you're burnout, you think you've hit the ceiling on your growth.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.639
No, I think there's more growth that you can do, right?
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:44.559
I've seen church media leaders move up from maybe they're just the media director where they've been promoted to creative director, executive pastor, if they want to go that route.
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:50.400
There's many places you can grow and many places within the church if you want to do that.
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:55.280
You don't just have to stay being a to-do guy, you know, an editor.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.559
And there's nothing wrong with that.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:00.000
And there's different seasons in our life where God has us in there.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.639
I remember I used to love editing, and that was my thing, you know?
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:11.280
And then God moved me into maybe a little bit more leadership where no, I didn't enjoy editing like I used to.
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.840
I can still do it, but it's not my thing anymore.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.280
Or running camera, right?
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:16.480
I used to do that.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.880
Now, hey, there's people that can do it better than me.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.360
I'm gonna let them do it, and I'll be the producer on it.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.840
So look at those shifts through life.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.639
And there's that's natural to do that.
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:28.559
So true.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:36.719
Um I would advocate for church media directors to move into those pastoral roles as well, too.
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:55.519
Because I feel that uh if you're able to, let's say, bulk up your pastoral team and someone who has technical knowledge of how things run and how things run in production, my gosh, like that would bring so much value to the church.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:00.960
Uh, because you have someone that has that experience, that technical experience.
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.320
That way the communication could be better, you know?
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:09.920
Of like, yeah, I can communicate this technical stuff, but into a far greater mission.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:15.519
Like, what does it look like in in the mission of the church that we're trying to do?
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:57.760
Um, I know for me personally, I'm I'm vouching it personally because uh one of my pastors was that person, you know, someone who had that technical ability, someone that was on the ground of like setup teardown church back in the day, all the way to like scenic design, all the way to like lighting design, like all these areas where as an early church, you know, you're doing these little things here and there to fill in the gaps, and and um and he he became someone who was uh our executive pastor at the time and really really vouched for us and really understood like you know our point of view of things.
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:00.559
Dan, is there anything else that I've missed?
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.599
Um I I'd love to have you um tell us where we can find you.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:06.639
Absolutely.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:15.840
Uh I host a podcast as well called the Producer's Seat Podcast, where we're talking about this very stuff helping church media leaders think like producers.
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.239
You can uh find it on YouTube.
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:22.400
YouTube is uh DRW Media Works, you can find me there.
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:28.159
And then the producer's seat is on your favorite audio platform you can find there as well.
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:37.280
And uh yeah, uh if you're looking for maybe media coaching, maybe you're in a church and you want to rise up to that next level, I'd love to talk to you and help you.
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:42.320
And you can go to my website to find that, drwmediaworks.com.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:43.920
That's awesome.
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:51.280
Yes, and I totally recommend Dan for anyone who is struggling in their department at church.
00:40:51.360 --> 00:41:00.000
Uh, Dan is someone who has brought so much value to me personally, and man, um, so much value to other organizations as well.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.880
So, Dan, thanks so much, man, for your time.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:08.159
Um, any last minute things that you would like to say uh before we close our time together?
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:14.800
Whatever you happen to be doing, whatever position you're in, you're not stuck there for life.
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:16.800
Take advantage of where you're at today.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.800
God has you, I believe, where you're at right now for a purpose.
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.800
Otherwise, I don't think you'd be there.
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.840
So ask God, hey, what is it that I can do?
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.400
Maybe I need to start looking at things differently.
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:35.280
Maybe I need to move, instead of my eyes being down at the technical side, maybe I need to lift them up and see the big picture.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:37.599
How can I contribute to the big picture?
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:39.760
So don't see yourself as just the tech.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.559
God has more inside of you than you might realize.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.840
So find that and start thinking differently.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:47.519
Come on, awesome.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.480
Thanks so much, Dan.
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:49.440
Appreciate your time, man.
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:49.920
Thank you.
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:53.280
Well, hey, thanks for tuning in to the episode.
00:41:53.519 --> 00:42:04.239
If you want to know a little bit more about Dan, check out drwmediaworks.com and you're gonna discover more about his podcast that he has called the Producer Seat.
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:18.000
I'm also gonna put a link in the bio as well, too, in the notes, um uh to his YouTube channel as well, too, where you can find the video form of his podcast where he provides a lot of valuable information for you.
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:27.360
Hey, if you have any questions on the podcast or if you have any ideas, go ahead and send it to hello at revealvideo.vegas.
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.960
Again, that's hello at revealvideo.vegas.
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:32.239
Thanks for tuning in.
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.440
And if this was helpful for you, go ahead and share it with a friend.
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:37.920
Alrighty, we'll see you soon.
