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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph. I never told your production of I Heeart Radio. And welcome to a new segment. We've been teasing this one for a while. I think we've had this idea for like two years and we haven't really done it. But welcome to Spoil Saturdays, which will probably be at once a month thing where we just to have a conversation about a piece of media, perhaps new and perhaps not, and we're gonna totally spoil you on it, um, and we're just gonna have It's gonna be a bit more conversational, but there's still plenty of of research to go around. Uh. And yes, you're ears not see few as this comes out. It is a Saturday and we are talking about Doctor Strange the Multiverse of Madness, which yes, we have been hinting at pieces teases for many weeks. I think it's true. It's true. Um, we're very excited about it and actually doing the research for this one, which I did do the research. I've determined we need to do an episode on Medusa, also a revisit on bad Mothers in horror movies in the wake of Roe v. Wade because I found a very deep essay about this movie and that, and I was like, that's too much for what we're going to talk about in this, but we should come back and revisit that. Okay, Yeah, yeah, So basically I think this will probably switch off. Sometimes Samantha will take the lead and sometimes I'll take the lead. But in this one, I'm going to run down the plot and then we're just going to discuss. But this is a very fairly recent movie. So if you haven't seen it and you don't want to be spoiled, here's rewarding. It's in the title Spoiled Saturday. So then come back, yes, because we got a lot to talk about and I'm very excited about it. All right. So plot wise, this is a two movie in Phase four of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, also known as the m c U. Is directed by Sam Ramy, written by Michael Waldron, and it starts Benedict Cumberbatch reprising his role as Doctor Strange, Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda Slash Scarlet, which Benedict Wong as Wong, Just Watcho Gomez as America Chavez, and a whole host of cameos from Schwetel G four, Rachel McAdams, John Krasinski, Haley Atwell, Latasha Lynch, and Patrick Stewart. Uh huh um, okay, So the plot very briefly. The movie opens on a different version of Doctor Strange working with America, trying to get their hands on the Book of Ashanti, and they are trying to escape what appears to be a multidimensional demon. Uh. Yeah, that's that's how we start, everybody, so hold on, um. Things go wrong and Doctor Strange tries to kill America, that is killed himself. America uses her verse jumping power to get out. She can jump between universes and arrives in our universe, Earth six one six. Meanwhile, our doctor Strange wakes from a nightmare, having witnessed what just happened. He shakes it off and prepares for Christine's, who is his ex his her wedding. The wedding is interrupted by a big demon attacking and Doctor Strange and Ravines. Realizing that the creature is after America. America tells Wong and Doctor Strange she is being hunted because of her power to jump through the multiverse, and that the body of the Doctor Strange that died that we saw at the beginning is stashed on the roof of the Kedom. And also all dreams are mirrors of other realities. Al right, whatever. Anyway, Doctor Strange seeks out the guidance of Wanda maximum Slash, the Scarlet Witch, who has sort of become a hermit after the death of her love Vision and her children that she created in in Westview that they were raised. So if you haven't seen Wanda Vision, this is very confusing. And this was definitely the first time I thought, Wow, if you haven't seen that previous Marvel thing, then I don't know what you're doing right now, Like you probably are very confused. Um, and yes, I also didn't really care about Vision and Wanda's relationship or the kids. And I blame Marvel because they aren't particularly good with relationships and especially women are relationships. But I just never bought it. Anyway. Uh, turns out Wanda is the one who is hunting America surprise, and she wants America's powers in order to be with her kids in another universe, but also the power to jump between universes in case something goes wrong, like if they get sick, maybe in another universe they have the cure to whatever is ailing them, which involves Wanda killing America. Okay, so Wanda Warren's Strange not to stop her, that she will get what she wants no matter the cost, because she is I don't matter. Um. It is very briefly explained that she acquired the Dark Hold, which is this kind of evil grim More book, and it has corrupted her. But they breathe by that point pretty quickly. More on now. Later, Strange refuses to give up Chavez, and they, along with many other sorcerers, including the sorcerer Supreme Wong, take refuge in car Martage. Wanda attacks, telling Strange this is her being reasonable. She demolishes Cammartage and kills violently. I might add many sorcerers. Terrified America accidentally sends her and Strange to Earth eight three eight, which, by the way, if it wasn't clear, America it doesn't really have control over powers because they're tied to a lot of trauma for her. In Earth eight, Strange is dead. Their Strange is dead, but lauded as a hero. However, our version of doctor Strange and Chavez are captured by Christine and Karl Mondo and Strange is brought before the Illuminati. Um, so that's Karl Mondo, Peggy Carter as Captain Carter, Black, Aguar Boltigan, uh Maria Rambo, Read Richards, and Professor X basically an alternative ventures and they explained that their version of doctor Strange triggered a universe destroying incursion by recklessly by recklessly using the Dark Hole to defeat Thanos. On Santos was defeated, the Illuminati killed Doctor Strange and line to the world about what happened, touting him as a hero to hide the truth. Morto in particular, thanks any version of doctor Strange is too dangerous and should be killed old. So while this is happening, Wanda from our world forces Wong to lead her to Mount Wondergoer so she can dream walk in the version of her living in Earth eight through eight, happily raising her kids, essentially hijacking that Wanda's body. Um and this was after she killed another sorcerer for destroying the Dark Hold. So our Wanda arrives at the Illuminati headquarters before they can pass judgment on Strange and violently kills all of them but Morto, who was engaged in a fight with Strange Chavez, Strange, and Christine Palmer from that world are able to escape Wanda, and they enter the space between universes to find the mythical Book of Ashanti, believed to be the opposite of the Dark Hold. However, Wanda destroys it, captures America, and uses her power to send Strange and Christine to a universe in the midst of an incursion. In this universe, their version of doctor Strange allowed things to quote get a little out of hand. The two fight after our version of doctor Strange refuses to give him Christine, and our Strange is eventually victorious. He dream walks into the corpse of the other version of himself left on our Earth, and with the help of Wan, he frees Chavez and convinces her that she can control her power and defeat Scarlett Witch. Chavez does so by jumping them both back to Earth eight three eight and showing that Wanda children, Uh, basically, look what this monster. Look at this Wanda monster. She's terrifying. Your children are so scared of you. Right, and our Wanda experiences a change of heart after the three eight Wanda promises her the children will be loved are Wanda destroys all versions of the Dark Hold across the multiverse, seemingly dying in the process. Um everyone goes back to their correct universe, apart from Chavez, who accidentally sent her parents to a different universe as a child and has been traumatized yes around her power ever since. Chevez begins training with other sorcerers at Cammertage. Doctor Strange grows a third eye due to his interaction with the Dark Cold. He is approached by a sorceress who tells him he triggered an incursion, and he follows her into the Dark dimension. Then the probably not Yeah, So I wanted to open this before we get into some themes about your initial thoughts and reactions. Well, I obviously texted you or may have called you, or maybe I don't remember what it was face to face. Who knows, Because I was like, why did they do this to Wanda? This seems so unnecessary. I have a lot of questions. Of course, I know there's a lot to do with canon Um and that it did exist and it happened this way to a certain extent. Of course, Sam Raymie, who is dragged me to Hell and the other Spider Man fame has a lot of like on his shoulders and dragged Me to Hell was very present in this entire movie. So I know this is supposed to be their first foray into horror, maybe second, because I guess, uh, Moon Night was supposed to be kind of that jump in the horror world as well, So I get that that's what it's supposed to be. I just felt like they demonized her so hardcore, who was one of the only few remaining women in this league at all these Avengers, and while most of them had heroic endings, we don't have that heroic ending here. And even with her death, it's so minimized that no one talks about it. It's the same as obviously Black Widow, where it was just like so minimized, Like what is happening? Maybe they're coming back, So that's my only thoughts, Like are they coming back? So they're not making it a big deal. I don't understand. And why is it that their only redemption in their dark past has to be death. We're gonna break down a lot of that as we go through this, because people have written about this, people have thoughts and feelings about it. I will say when I saw it. I liked some aspects of like the style, but overall again I was like, yeah, where where did this come from? And I feel like they didn't give I could have told you, I think when we were texting, when we first we both first saw it separately, I couldn't have told you for sure she died, and like she should have had all her questions. It should have been a bigger deal. Huh. She just no, she's she's not here. Nope, that's all he says. That's all he says. I find it so fascinating that this is the route they had to tell Ache and again camping the magic of editing, um time or whatever, because it's still a long movie that it seems so unnecessary. But the parental bonding that we see between Doctor Strange and America as wells like, okay, he gets the redemptive arc, and she's correct like in saying why do you get to do these things? And both those like you changed, you change reality, You didn't have to face any consequences. Oh you did the dark hold You're okay? How because is it because you're a man with good intentions that you were able to which, according to what we saw from one division. She got the dark hold with good intentions taking away from Agatha because Agatha had so much more like evil intentions. That just seems kind of odd. Yes it is, and that was something that definitely stuck out to me and a lot of people about it seems with women in Marvel Universe, if you get too much power, you have to go or you have to have some and or you have to have some hang up around children, right, which, by the way, can we talk about because even if I'm trying to excuse, like are they do they have a propensity to be more evil. Yeah, I'm trying to really think deep on this because she has a lot of vengeance in our hearts and that's what she started with, was a lot love for our family, but vengeance in our heart because you know, all her family and her home was destroyed. We know that's the beginning of Wanda. But Dr Strange wasn't asked. It was all about himself and was selfish as hell. But yeah, he's redeemed, yes, yes, And this comes back to conversations We've had a lot around how much more willing we are to forgive male characters, but also like as creators, I think give male characters those arcs because she is essentially been stuck in a cycle of trauma since we've known her. UM, she has been traumatized and manipulated and used and punished by the Avengers. We're supposed to be her teammates. But a lot of them were like, no, will imprison you. And this is another instance where like it seems no one thought to reach out to her, check in on her, or like maybe give her some kinda we can talk this through, Like maybe you couldn't have. But no one before it reached to this point has talked. They didn't come to her until after they needed her right exactly exactly. Uh. And so I did as I wanted to. I did research this, and I found so many articles about how it did not bow and become a feminist propaganda piece, which I thought was interesting. One of them I think was satirical, but I couldn't tell, Like maybe they were saying, Hollywood feminist is not a good feminist. I don't know, But anyway, I saw a lot of that. UM. And in case you didn't, if you forgot or you missed it, the trailers advertised the movie in a very different way. Um. It was advertised as a continuation of both Wanda and Doctor Stranger's stories, but instead want to regressed and Doctor Strange progressed as a character and a parent. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought her back, but we're left to believe she's just right and I know, and we'll probably talk about it a little bit. Like her reaction to Pete. Fans reaction was like, no, no, this is exactly what I wanted. This is what was supposed to happen. I don't know what's that a contract ended? Did they not negotiate? She has a Some people think it's like a fake or like some way to mislead people, but she has a seven year contract with the m C you and Disney from here. Uh, but they don't know if like maybe that was just a false dreamer that was planted to mislead us. I know, I did think I want to include this. So this is from Collider where they were commenting on the women in this movie, and they wrote the characterization of those women, however, is not much of a triumph. They fall into the categories of the damsel in distress, the evil which in the love interest, which I thought was very interesting, and we're going to go through each of those, but definitely one of the biggest themes in this movie was motherhood. It came out on Mother's Day weekend Multiverse of Madness stance for Mom. I don't know if they did it on purpose, but I think that they did. Uh. And this got me thinking of Sad Murder Mom after we did our Sad Murder Dad episode and we talked about that. In that episode of like Sad Murder Dad, I feel like gets so much credit for Bud. He's trying and he cares so much. Sad Murder Mom were like she's terrible and she has to go well. Like the entire thing with Sad Murder Dad is typically like we're bringing I want to bring him back in. I want to tell him I'm sorry. I'm going to save them. But this whole movie was like I'm gonna kill myself essentially my own character, and I don't care who else dies to get to the children. So much different than like I'm protecting the children. It's not because she's protecting those because she wants them. Two different storylines. Yeah, yeah, and that's kind of the heartbreaking thing. Um for me is Sam Rainy apparently didn't watch one definition. Uh he watched, he said, key moments. That makes me angry. Why did he get that? I'm not I'm not trying to lay. I'm not a gatekeeper and I don't I don't even have that much invested. But like, at the very least, if you're gonna tell her story nor story right because WandaVision heard that whole thing was her dealing with trauma, realizing she had done wrong and accepting that and wanting to fix that, like not excusing her actions but recognizing them and wanting That's why she was isolating herself. She was punishing her for that. Right, So, like the fact that he didn't want did all of that? He did? He undid all of that is scene. Yes, he undid all of it, and and it feels like just so he could tell a horror story, a very one dimensional horror story about a mother who has completely lost her mind, Like, oh, um, I have some quotes about that. I'm going to get to and I definitely have like I'm not going to do it, but a drinking game to every time Wanda says I'm a mother, you really wasted, she says it a lot um. I also learned about the term woo madness, which I'd never heard. So as as we mentioned earlier, they absolutely never really explained the Dark Holds impact on Wanda were to presume that a lot of her actions are through the Dark Hold, but it doesn't explain it, so we don't know, um, and so a lot of these choices were left to wonder if it was her are the Dark Hold again? She She's been painted as a villain before, but almost always it came from a sympathetic place, like we could see why she made her choices, it came from a place of pain. Um. A lot of people wrote about like able is m and mental health around this character, that she was essentially painted as a hysterical woman, Like when she says this is me being rational, whereas Dr Strange is very rational, it's like, oh see, she's super emotional and he can make logical decisions, very gendered breakdown. Okay, he does everything she does, but in opposition and becomes a hero. Yep uh. And and she did in the comics, she did some allah Jean Gray. She is the most powerful Avenger. But it's wildly agreed that her storyline, which I think is called House of m that this one's based on was pretty problematic. Uh, like most people think that, and they went for it anyway. Again, I knew this was cannon like according to what was happening in the comics. But again it's the same level of like, yeah, but it doesn't mean it's not bad, right, right, we can move on from some story and they have repeatedly yes, yes, something else I learned and thinking about Jean Gray, this was another like example where there's this powerful women can't handle it idea, like they can't handle the power, so they just kill people. Um. There's a whole trope of about it called magical women who are just too powerful for their own good, And basically that's you know, women can't be trusted, so they had to be kept in their place like they always have to be, you know, imprisoned in the Avengers complex or whatever it is. And then when she breaks out of that, she can't handle it and the men have to come in and be like, calm, stop stop it. Wanda yeo, yep, yep. Um. Here's a quote from Junkie. Uh, we have Wanda who has gone full blown evil scarlet witch and spent the entire movie desperately trying to get into the universe where she is a suburban housewife with two loud sons, because in the end, that's all women really want, is it not. So this was something that came up and a lot of stuff I was reading where people were making the point, Yes, if you want to be you know, if that's that's that's your dream, If you want to be the housewife, if you want to have the kids, whatever, that's fine. But it seems like all of the men are like, I want to rule the world or I want to like these big, huge things, and the women are always kind of relegated to this like home sphere of motherhood and children and let the the men do that other surer real stuff. Right, Well, here's the question I have, where is vision? Because yes, she loves her children, but the beginning and the overall was about vision and the children came into play as like okay, it happened, but we don't even hear the mention as like where was he for the fantasy of being with the kids, Like that wasn't her story in one of Vision. Yes, she loved the boys and she missed them, but her story was all of them as a family. That was her goal. Yeah, I was confused. I kept asking that. I was like, this doesn't fit. No, I don't know. Again, they've tried so hard and making her so evil. Yeah, and she had to be the only one taking responsibility and that evil. It almost like she couldn't have a partner in this. Yeah, it had to just be her because if he was around, presumably they would have either teamed up or he would have tried to stop her, or she would have tried to stop him. Who knows. You can't have two male heroes. No problematic, It doesn't fit, and it don't sign to me. It doesn't. I mean, there's certainly I can tell Phase four of the im CU is going through some growing pains. It is vision coming back, because they made it seem like one in one division, there's a new vision, Yes, white vision. Yes, um, I would assume. But I did read one of the articles I was reading about this. People were speculating that Paul Bettany hasn't signed another contract and that's why he wasn't there. But I don't care, okay, And I know a lot of that has like that type of depiction. But I just wondered because, yeah, one of the things like if you want her happy ending, this is not her happy ending. No oh no, I do have some more quotes I want to read. So this one is from Vulture. Dreams are windows into the lives of our multi versus cells, and for Wanda, her dreams involves being a suburban housewife without vision or any inkling of b Wanda's desires beyond her children. This dream comes across as even more claustrophobic. Apparently, Wanda, an immensely powerful witch who can bend reality, only aspires to be a mom. It's her single devouring need, and when it's not met, she loses her mind, leading to death and destruction for everyone around her. I feel like they agree with me. I think. So that's what I was like. Let's read this one. Um oh and also this one I like. Okay. Wanda's fate reminds me of de naar Assist Tagarians in the final season of Game of Thrones. Both stories depict power corrupting once beloved female characters, who are then demonized and ultimately disposed of. It's two. Why are we still being asked to see powerful men as heroes and powerful women as scary? Why are female characters only likable when they're struggling and weak. The plot arc of women becoming psychotic unable to control their own emotions serves the same energy of male pundits who frequently warn us that if we have a woman president, she'll knook the whole world, or she has a bad day or is on her period. Both are female characters and massive blockbuster fantasy stories who are embraced as likable, sympathetic protagonist when they're powerless or struggling, but how they're presented to audiences changes entirely. When they do obtain power. They become the villains, terrifying and ruthless in her almost immediately unceremoniously tossed aside as a result. And that's from Jezebel, which very good quote. Yeah, I mean I feel like it. It's true. It's the thing we keep talking about where we allow, and by we, I mean as of society and particularly creators allow women. You can come to this point, but only if you played by our rules. And then once you break those rules, once you become more powerful than doctor Strange, you've got to go. You can't, you can no longer exist, And just reducing them into only caring about motherhood and children, when like, again, if that's if that's with your character and it makes sense, fine, but it becomes like, oh, she's lost her mind, because if it becomes like female hysteria, it becomes that trope of oh she just wants kids. Now she's killing everybody. And I do feel like they try to address this in the movie when Wanda's like, why is it okay? Yeah, that you can break the rule was dr strange and not me, But they do it in kind of a strange way because she's so callous, she's bitter. She's bitter, and you don't root her. They give you like no reason immediately to root for her, like they all of that character development they did is just like nope, she's different, and then I don't know where she comes and kills Dennis the people when that the entirety of her makeup in the films has been how she grieves loss of life in general, Like that's how she comes to stop to work with Avengers because she sees the destruction happening around her community and so she's like, oh my god, I can't do this same way as how Westview ended, because she realized she was physically hurting people, so she had to stop. And yet it doesn't matter now, right right, And it's so quick, it's so quick. Yeah, and it's really without explanation, because again, if you haven't seen One Division, if you haven't even had that basic that that basis, you'd be like, where did these kids come from? Who are they? Yes? Yes? Uh? And as you mentioned earlier, I kind of chafed at oh, doctor Strange, can you use the dark Old? And he's fine, she can't like, get out, get out of here. Um. And by the way, the creator of WandaVision, Jacques Schaefer, once said of the show, it was extremely important to me that we not do the lazy thing of having a superpowered lady who can't handle her powers and goes crazy. It was being filmed when One Division was being filmed, though, so that's interesting. Uh. And here's a quote from the conversation. Wanda Maximov hasn't been given much positive character development. In contrast to Marvel's notorious villains, Wanda has no grand design, no desire to rule or destroy humanity. Her goal is limited to her self created picture of domestic happiness. She fights through unite with her two sons. Such treatment as an ill stration of the separate spheres sexist doctrine to men, the world is a stage, while women must limit themselves to the private sanctum of the house. But more problematic is the representation of one particular aspect of Banda's character, her anger in the film references to mythological and popular cultural figures a female anger are allusions to stereotypical expectations associated with women's conduct, and this is where the Medusa conversation opened up about basically women who have been really done wrong, and then when they fight back, their anger is seen as either ridiculous are just clearly written by men who want them to be killed off. Like see she's hysterical, Like maybe she was done wrong, but she is also bad uh and yeah she h Wanda and this movie was willing to kill other versions of herself, um, other children, anyone who'd gotten her way very violently, um, which is not good traits for someone you want to root for. Also, people wrote about America, who I want to do? Uh, I'm planning of feminist women around the world. On She's frequently displayed as the damsel of distress. Um. Here's a quote from The Daily Dot. She's wide eyed and vulnerable, a disneyfied characterization choice that also de sexualizes her comic book role. The m C. You took a cool, independent, queer Latina superhero and standed down all the hard edges that made her interesting. So yeah, in the comic book, she's one of the first young Avengers, which I think they're setting up because we've already talked about a bunch of them in these and the actor, Like everybody praised the actor, she would be great, but doesn't connect with what she is in the comics, right, Okay, Yeah, I don't know much about the comics, but yeah, she hard character was interesting. I guess her name was made. When when was she created? I think, Okay, okay, that says to me a lot like I'm sad for her name, but I know that that's a different thing. But yeah, I found it interesting because she is she's just being tossed about everywhere, constantly needing to be rescued, always losing people. Very orphan mentality. Yeah, and I mean she gets her moment at the end, but it's at the very end, right, of course, a lot of coaxing, which again kind of reminds me of younger Wanda when she has to be taught coaxed by Captain America and Hawkeye, very much like a lot of people wrote about that. They're like, it's always kind of there the male story, and they the women in it are like given this little bit where okay, you hero worship me, yes, yes, yes. There is also the scene that Samantha and I texted about a lot when she kills the Illuminati the other Avengers Wanda does, which was pretty graphic intense. It was like I kept thinking of like that version of Earth, like just because it's not our version doesn't mean that they're not going to suffer because you kill all of their avengers. Um. And then yeah, her other self, as you pointed out, the other wand to apparently is powerless in this world or she doesn't have that much power, or she doesn't use it because she's happy, and it's that kind of odd. She doesn't even try to fight. That's the thing is, like she doesn't even care that she killed people. She's my voice and runs away. Kind of odd moment of like I get it, you want to protect your boys, but you also just covered in blood and no, Okay, it definitely felt like it was saying, again, women can anidal you choose one or the other. You can't add this power and your happy life. You have to pick one. And if you have kids, you definitely don't care about other people, right, And I know you pointed this out, but people were tweeting about it afterwards about what is going on with Marvel and they're hanging up on motherhood and punishing women, whether it's mothers or not mothers. Because we have Black Widow an age of Ultron, she has her storyline of she was sterilized against her will and so she feels she is a monster because of it. She also feels like she's of less value and less worth. I found that really disgusting. Yeah yeah, because it kind of again came out of nowhere, reducing her again to her womb, her body, right, and that way she can only be matched. But who another monster the Hulk right right? Like that was a pretty obviously traumatizing experience. But to frame it in a way where she's like, oh, I'm a monster, I care how kids. No, I'm very eager to come back and talk about Jane Foster. But you haven't seen the new I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I can't tell you, but I think we should come back and talk about it, because that's him playing this conversation as well. Certainly, the death of Scarlett Witch, which was so quick and confusing, like I wasn't even sure she had died. Um, is a trend in Marvel movies where we're seeing like the same with Black Widow. She might have gotten like a more dramatic send off, but essentially, yeah, exactly. An iron Man meanwhile gets the whole like final thing, final funeral of these movies. Okay, cool, great. Here's a quote from Pace magazine. It's kind of a long one, but stick with me because I think it's good. Um. Because while Marvel Studios is certainly eager enough to out its feminist bona fides by pointing to Captain Marvel or Black Widow, the franchise still waited for twenty films to feature a female lead, and Carol Danvers Free Larson and sat on a Natasha Romanov Scarlett Johansson solo, adding for so long the character died first, essentially rendering the project useless for for any larger storytelling purpose. To be fair, want to Maximov certainly isn't the only woman the m c U has done dirty in recent years. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier turned to all American good girl and Peggy Carter's niece Sharon Carter into the leader of an international criminals send again. Loki Judge Sylvie a female variant of the God of Mischief, much more hartily than any of the male versions of the character, and they're all literally the same person. Laura Barton was apparently once a kick ass Shield agent, but her primary role in Hawkeye is to serve as a little more than Clint's emotional sounding board. After all, Wanda did the impossible thing that was asked of her by killing Vision. She undid Westview by her own choice, I might add, and said goodbye to him all over again. She's still suffering for all those things. But Strange gave Thanos the Timestone and stole five years from half of humanity in the process, all before literally ripping reality apart a second time as a favor to a teenager. He doesn't even like that much. The only consequence he's had to face is that one man was rude to him at a public event one time. Clint Barton spent five years of The Blips straight up murdering people in the name of some nebulous avengeance and not only gets immediately welcome back into the Avengers fold, but rewarded with his own series that can hardly even be bothered to say that what he did as Rounan was even bad. These things are not the same, agreed, Agreed again, a lot of this doesn't make sense. Once again, talking about Bucky. Bucky goes into his like solace and kind of torments himself, but everybody forgives him. He killed Tony's parents. They had one half a series about that, and everything was fine, one half one half of a movie about that, and then everything was just fine. They're very much again willing to give these male characters a lot more room for growth, for forgiveness then we are for women, where apparently it's just you get too powerful when you die, and that's it every time, every time. We don't even know. Maybe there'll be some hope in the New Black Panther. Maybe cross your fingers have the same thor so. I don't know yet, but yeah, all of these like we finally get some new female women representation in the New universe and they immediately die, which, by the way, Captain Marvel was supposed to be able to hold her own against Wanda. So I'm a little confused on how easily she died. I know she was at least the last to die, but still out well second to last, I guess, yeah, yeah, uh. And if you're confused with Captain Marvel and the other Earth, yes, yeah, because Captain Marvel and Scarlett Witch are the most powerful, supposed to be the most powerful, right she almost had Danos more so than one did it, although she could have, Yeah, she could. If they've done there together, God have been over. But all that to say is I don't understand how easily that she died like she was crushed by statue. I don't think that's supposed to kill her. Agreed, Agreed, And then I did want to briefly touch on Christine. You reached on my Adams is um doctor Stranger's girlfriend for lack of a better word, and eight three eight she's a scientist who's working with Illuminati, and people wrote about her like she had it feels like just crumbs though, but she had a bigger storyline perhaps, but they still turned her into a possession at the end the other doctor Strangers like give me Christine. Also she was a glorified assistant I guess with her own laps. Yes. And also he bothered her our doctor Strange bothered her at her wedding about why they weren't together anymore, like back up man. That sounds like a dude, though to be fair, it does sound like a person dude. And and Marvel definitely has a history of this, so does a lot of I mean, the Damsel in distress, the like girl friend. Love interest is not new and it's not unique to Marvel in any any sense, but it is certainly something I've been like, you have to make the woman a love interest in some way. Every time it didn't make sense. I still don't get the Hulkan call it, I mean the Hulkan Black Widow like that. They tried so hard with this that was like even Black Widow and Captain America would have made more sense than The Hulk. But okay, well, yeah, it was frustrating because you could tell and like every other movie they were trying to romantic interest for her. They were maybe this one will work and you don't need to do it at all. She could have just been happy. I would have rather seen her and Yelena's relationship me too. And I really liked like her and Captain America as platonic friends. But you could tell they were trying to suggest maybe maybe, but they could have just been platonic friends, and that was great. It was good, Like in Civil War. It was good. And then certainly there was a theme throughout this of the woman who is responsible for the euro's actions, like he becomes violent because of her, which is alsome not unique to Marvel, but um, if you haven't seen the what if episode with Doctor Strange, this is the whole theme where he like ruins the world to Sage Christine, and it was you could see it in this as well, where just these threads of like men being violent in the name of women who probably don't want them to do that anyway, but they feel good, they feel justified in it because it's for a woman. It's like the nine be nine sexism anyway. I did also want to mention, very briefly, there was the same sex causs in it. It was very brief, but it caused a huge uproar and it almost got removed, and in some markets that did get removed. Uh, so that's still that's still a thing as well, America between the parents, America's parents. Um, there's it's sure. I mean it's super sure. Yeah, they barely. I was like, I don't I think you'll blame miss it. But it cost a huge up for America is a lesbian in the comics, and as I said, I'm gonna I'm planning on returning to her for a future Women around the World, fictional women around the World. But I just wanted to mention it. Uh. But yeah, I think this is a successful I too Spoiled Saturdays, and I again, there's so much we could return to Because people wrote about this as they should, it didn't make sense and it says a lot for a multibillion dollar franchise. Why why why? Yes, Well continue to ask that question, uh in future episodes and to ourselves when we're trying to sleep at night. In the meantime, If there is a movie or TV show you would like for us to cover and Spoiled Saturdays, please let us know. You can email us at stuffide your mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or if you havent stuff I Never told you. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff whe Never told you the production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from I Heeart Radio, you can visit a Heart Radio app Apple podcast already listen to your favorite shows
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph. I never told your production of I Heeart Radio. And welcome to a new segment. We've been teasing this one for a while. I think we've had this idea for like two years and we haven't really done it. But welcome to Spoil Saturdays, which will probably be at once a month thing where we just to have a conversation about a piece of media, perhaps new and perhaps not, and we're gonna totally spoil you on it, um, and we're just gonna have It's gonna be a bit more conversational, but there's still plenty of of research to go around. Uh. And yes, you're ears not see few as this comes out. It is a Saturday and we are talking about Doctor Strange the Multiverse of Madness, which yes, we have been hinting at pieces teases for many weeks. I think it's true. It's true. Um, we're very excited about it and actually doing the research for this one, which I did do the research. I've determined we need to do an episode on Medusa, also a revisit on bad Mothers in horror movies in the wake of Roe v. Wade because I found a very deep essay about this movie and that, and I was like, that's too much for what we're going to talk about in this, but we should come back and revisit that. Okay, Yeah, yeah, So basically I think this will probably switch off. Sometimes Samantha will take the lead and sometimes I'll take the lead. But in this one, I'm going to run down the plot and then we're just going to discuss. But this is a very fairly recent movie. So if you haven't seen it and you don't want to be spoiled, here's rewarding. It's in the title Spoiled Saturday. So then come back, yes, because we got a lot to talk about and I'm very excited about it. All right. So plot wise, this is a two movie in Phase four of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, also known as the m c U. Is directed by Sam Ramy, written by Michael Waldron, and it starts Benedict Cumberbatch reprising his role as Doctor Strange, Elizabeth Olsen as Wanda Slash Scarlet, which Benedict Wong as Wong, Just Watcho Gomez as America Chavez, and a whole host of cameos from Schwetel G four, Rachel McAdams, John Krasinski, Haley Atwell, Latasha Lynch, and Patrick Stewart. Uh huh um, okay, So the plot very briefly. The movie opens on a different version of Doctor Strange working with America, trying to get their hands on the Book of Ashanti, and they are trying to escape what appears to be a multidimensional demon. Uh. Yeah, that's that's how we start, everybody, so hold on, um. Things go wrong and Doctor Strange tries to kill America, that is killed himself. America uses her verse jumping power to get out. She can jump between universes and arrives in our universe, Earth six one six. Meanwhile, our doctor Strange wakes from a nightmare, having witnessed what just happened. He shakes it off and prepares for Christine's, who is his ex his her wedding. The wedding is interrupted by a big demon attacking and Doctor Strange and Ravines. Realizing that the creature is after America. America tells Wong and Doctor Strange she is being hunted because of her power to jump through the multiverse, and that the body of the Doctor Strange that died that we saw at the beginning is stashed on the roof of the Kedom. And also all dreams are mirrors of other realities. Al right, whatever. Anyway, Doctor Strange seeks out the guidance of Wanda maximum Slash, the Scarlet Witch, who has sort of become a hermit after the death of her love Vision and her children that she created in in Westview that they were raised. So if you haven't seen Wanda Vision, this is very confusing. And this was definitely the first time I thought, Wow, if you haven't seen that previous Marvel thing, then I don't know what you're doing right now, Like you probably are very confused. Um, and yes, I also didn't really care about Vision and Wanda's relationship or the kids. And I blame Marvel because they aren't particularly good with relationships and especially women are relationships. But I just never bought it. Anyway. Uh, turns out Wanda is the one who is hunting America surprise, and she wants America's powers in order to be with her kids in another universe, but also the power to jump between universes in case something goes wrong, like if they get sick, maybe in another universe they have the cure to whatever is ailing them, which involves Wanda killing America. Okay, so Wanda Warren's Strange not to stop her, that she will get what she wants no matter the cost, because she is I don't matter. Um. It is very briefly explained that she acquired the Dark Hold, which is this kind of evil grim More book, and it has corrupted her. But they breathe by that point pretty quickly. More on now. Later, Strange refuses to give up Chavez, and they, along with many other sorcerers, including the sorcerer Supreme Wong, take refuge in car Martage. Wanda attacks, telling Strange this is her being reasonable. She demolishes Cammartage and kills violently. I might add many sorcerers. Terrified America accidentally sends her and Strange to Earth eight three eight, which, by the way, if it wasn't clear, America it doesn't really have control over powers because they're tied to a lot of trauma for her. In Earth eight, Strange is dead. Their Strange is dead, but lauded as a hero. However, our version of doctor Strange and Chavez are captured by Christine and Karl Mondo and Strange is brought before the Illuminati. Um, so that's Karl Mondo, Peggy Carter as Captain Carter, Black, Aguar Boltigan, uh Maria Rambo, Read Richards, and Professor X basically an alternative ventures and they explained that their version of doctor Strange triggered a universe destroying incursion by recklessly by recklessly using the Dark Hole to defeat Thanos. On Santos was defeated, the Illuminati killed Doctor Strange and line to the world about what happened, touting him as a hero to hide the truth. Morto in particular, thanks any version of doctor Strange is too dangerous and should be killed old. So while this is happening, Wanda from our world forces Wong to lead her to Mount Wondergoer so she can dream walk in the version of her living in Earth eight through eight, happily raising her kids, essentially hijacking that Wanda's body. Um and this was after she killed another sorcerer for destroying the Dark Hold. So our Wanda arrives at the Illuminati headquarters before they can pass judgment on Strange and violently kills all of them but Morto, who was engaged in a fight with Strange Chavez, Strange, and Christine Palmer from that world are able to escape Wanda, and they enter the space between universes to find the mythical Book of Ashanti, believed to be the opposite of the Dark Hold. However, Wanda destroys it, captures America, and uses her power to send Strange and Christine to a universe in the midst of an incursion. In this universe, their version of doctor Strange allowed things to quote get a little out of hand. The two fight after our version of doctor Strange refuses to give him Christine, and our Strange is eventually victorious. He dream walks into the corpse of the other version of himself left on our Earth, and with the help of Wan, he frees Chavez and convinces her that she can control her power and defeat Scarlett Witch. Chavez does so by jumping them both back to Earth eight three eight and showing that Wanda children, Uh, basically, look what this monster. Look at this Wanda monster. She's terrifying. Your children are so scared of you. Right, and our Wanda experiences a change of heart after the three eight Wanda promises her the children will be loved are Wanda destroys all versions of the Dark Hold across the multiverse, seemingly dying in the process. Um everyone goes back to their correct universe, apart from Chavez, who accidentally sent her parents to a different universe as a child and has been traumatized yes around her power ever since. Chevez begins training with other sorcerers at Cammertage. Doctor Strange grows a third eye due to his interaction with the Dark Cold. He is approached by a sorceress who tells him he triggered an incursion, and he follows her into the Dark dimension. Then the probably not Yeah, So I wanted to open this before we get into some themes about your initial thoughts and reactions. Well, I obviously texted you or may have called you, or maybe I don't remember what it was face to face. Who knows, Because I was like, why did they do this to Wanda? This seems so unnecessary. I have a lot of questions. Of course, I know there's a lot to do with canon Um and that it did exist and it happened this way to a certain extent. Of course, Sam Raymie, who is dragged me to Hell and the other Spider Man fame has a lot of like on his shoulders and dragged Me to Hell was very present in this entire movie. So I know this is supposed to be their first foray into horror, maybe second, because I guess, uh, Moon Night was supposed to be kind of that jump in the horror world as well, So I get that that's what it's supposed to be. I just felt like they demonized her so hardcore, who was one of the only few remaining women in this league at all these Avengers, and while most of them had heroic endings, we don't have that heroic ending here. And even with her death, it's so minimized that no one talks about it. It's the same as obviously Black Widow, where it was just like so minimized, Like what is happening? Maybe they're coming back, So that's my only thoughts, Like are they coming back? So they're not making it a big deal. I don't understand. And why is it that their only redemption in their dark past has to be death. We're gonna break down a lot of that as we go through this, because people have written about this, people have thoughts and feelings about it. I will say when I saw it. I liked some aspects of like the style, but overall again I was like, yeah, where where did this come from? And I feel like they didn't give I could have told you, I think when we were texting, when we first we both first saw it separately, I couldn't have told you for sure she died, and like she should have had all her questions. It should have been a bigger deal. Huh. She just no, she's she's not here. Nope, that's all he says. That's all he says. I find it so fascinating that this is the route they had to tell Ache and again camping the magic of editing, um time or whatever, because it's still a long movie that it seems so unnecessary. But the parental bonding that we see between Doctor Strange and America as wells like, okay, he gets the redemptive arc, and she's correct like in saying why do you get to do these things? And both those like you changed, you change reality, You didn't have to face any consequences. Oh you did the dark hold You're okay? How because is it because you're a man with good intentions that you were able to which, according to what we saw from one division. She got the dark hold with good intentions taking away from Agatha because Agatha had so much more like evil intentions. That just seems kind of odd. Yes it is, and that was something that definitely stuck out to me and a lot of people about it seems with women in Marvel Universe, if you get too much power, you have to go or you have to have some and or you have to have some hang up around children, right, which, by the way, can we talk about because even if I'm trying to excuse, like are they do they have a propensity to be more evil. Yeah, I'm trying to really think deep on this because she has a lot of vengeance in our hearts and that's what she started with, was a lot love for our family, but vengeance in our heart because you know, all her family and her home was destroyed. We know that's the beginning of Wanda. But Dr Strange wasn't asked. It was all about himself and was selfish as hell. But yeah, he's redeemed, yes, yes, And this comes back to conversations We've had a lot around how much more willing we are to forgive male characters, but also like as creators, I think give male characters those arcs because she is essentially been stuck in a cycle of trauma since we've known her. UM, she has been traumatized and manipulated and used and punished by the Avengers. We're supposed to be her teammates. But a lot of them were like, no, will imprison you. And this is another instance where like it seems no one thought to reach out to her, check in on her, or like maybe give her some kinda we can talk this through, Like maybe you couldn't have. But no one before it reached to this point has talked. They didn't come to her until after they needed her right exactly exactly. Uh. And so I did as I wanted to. I did research this, and I found so many articles about how it did not bow and become a feminist propaganda piece, which I thought was interesting. One of them I think was satirical, but I couldn't tell, Like maybe they were saying, Hollywood feminist is not a good feminist. I don't know, But anyway, I saw a lot of that. UM. And in case you didn't, if you forgot or you missed it, the trailers advertised the movie in a very different way. Um. It was advertised as a continuation of both Wanda and Doctor Stranger's stories, but instead want to regressed and Doctor Strange progressed as a character and a parent. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought her back, but we're left to believe she's just right and I know, and we'll probably talk about it a little bit. Like her reaction to Pete. Fans reaction was like, no, no, this is exactly what I wanted. This is what was supposed to happen. I don't know what's that a contract ended? Did they not negotiate? She has a Some people think it's like a fake or like some way to mislead people, but she has a seven year contract with the m C you and Disney from here. Uh, but they don't know if like maybe that was just a false dreamer that was planted to mislead us. I know, I did think I want to include this. So this is from Collider where they were commenting on the women in this movie, and they wrote the characterization of those women, however, is not much of a triumph. They fall into the categories of the damsel in distress, the evil which in the love interest, which I thought was very interesting, and we're going to go through each of those, but definitely one of the biggest themes in this movie was motherhood. It came out on Mother's Day weekend Multiverse of Madness stance for Mom. I don't know if they did it on purpose, but I think that they did. Uh. And this got me thinking of Sad Murder Mom after we did our Sad Murder Dad episode and we talked about that. In that episode of like Sad Murder Dad, I feel like gets so much credit for Bud. He's trying and he cares so much. Sad Murder Mom were like she's terrible and she has to go well. Like the entire thing with Sad Murder Dad is typically like we're bringing I want to bring him back in. I want to tell him I'm sorry. I'm going to save them. But this whole movie was like I'm gonna kill myself essentially my own character, and I don't care who else dies to get to the children. So much different than like I'm protecting the children. It's not because she's protecting those because she wants them. Two different storylines. Yeah, yeah, and that's kind of the heartbreaking thing. Um for me is Sam Rainy apparently didn't watch one definition. Uh he watched, he said, key moments. That makes me angry. Why did he get that? I'm not I'm not trying to lay. I'm not a gatekeeper and I don't I don't even have that much invested. But like, at the very least, if you're gonna tell her story nor story right because WandaVision heard that whole thing was her dealing with trauma, realizing she had done wrong and accepting that and wanting to fix that, like not excusing her actions but recognizing them and wanting That's why she was isolating herself. She was punishing her for that. Right, So, like the fact that he didn't want did all of that? He did? He undid all of that is scene. Yes, he undid all of it, and and it feels like just so he could tell a horror story, a very one dimensional horror story about a mother who has completely lost her mind, Like, oh, um, I have some quotes about that. I'm going to get to and I definitely have like I'm not going to do it, but a drinking game to every time Wanda says I'm a mother, you really wasted, she says it a lot um. I also learned about the term woo madness, which I'd never heard. So as as we mentioned earlier, they absolutely never really explained the Dark Holds impact on Wanda were to presume that a lot of her actions are through the Dark Hold, but it doesn't explain it, so we don't know, um, and so a lot of these choices were left to wonder if it was her are the Dark Hold again? She She's been painted as a villain before, but almost always it came from a sympathetic place, like we could see why she made her choices, it came from a place of pain. Um. A lot of people wrote about like able is m and mental health around this character, that she was essentially painted as a hysterical woman, Like when she says this is me being rational, whereas Dr Strange is very rational, it's like, oh see, she's super emotional and he can make logical decisions, very gendered breakdown. Okay, he does everything she does, but in opposition and becomes a hero. Yep uh. And and she did in the comics, she did some allah Jean Gray. She is the most powerful Avenger. But it's wildly agreed that her storyline, which I think is called House of m that this one's based on was pretty problematic. Uh, like most people think that, and they went for it anyway. Again, I knew this was cannon like according to what was happening in the comics. But again it's the same level of like, yeah, but it doesn't mean it's not bad, right, right, we can move on from some story and they have repeatedly yes, yes, something else I learned and thinking about Jean Gray, this was another like example where there's this powerful women can't handle it idea, like they can't handle the power, so they just kill people. Um. There's a whole trope of about it called magical women who are just too powerful for their own good, And basically that's you know, women can't be trusted, so they had to be kept in their place like they always have to be, you know, imprisoned in the Avengers complex or whatever it is. And then when she breaks out of that, she can't handle it and the men have to come in and be like, calm, stop stop it. Wanda yeo, yep, yep. Um. Here's a quote from Junkie. Uh, we have Wanda who has gone full blown evil scarlet witch and spent the entire movie desperately trying to get into the universe where she is a suburban housewife with two loud sons, because in the end, that's all women really want, is it not. So this was something that came up and a lot of stuff I was reading where people were making the point, Yes, if you want to be you know, if that's that's that's your dream, If you want to be the housewife, if you want to have the kids, whatever, that's fine. But it seems like all of the men are like, I want to rule the world or I want to like these big, huge things, and the women are always kind of relegated to this like home sphere of motherhood and children and let the the men do that other surer real stuff. Right, Well, here's the question I have, where is vision? Because yes, she loves her children, but the beginning and the overall was about vision and the children came into play as like okay, it happened, but we don't even hear the mention as like where was he for the fantasy of being with the kids, Like that wasn't her story in one of Vision. Yes, she loved the boys and she missed them, but her story was all of them as a family. That was her goal. Yeah, I was confused. I kept asking that. I was like, this doesn't fit. No, I don't know. Again, they've tried so hard and making her so evil. Yeah, and she had to be the only one taking responsibility and that evil. It almost like she couldn't have a partner in this. Yeah, it had to just be her because if he was around, presumably they would have either teamed up or he would have tried to stop her, or she would have tried to stop him. Who knows. You can't have two male heroes. No problematic, It doesn't fit, and it don't sign to me. It doesn't. I mean, there's certainly I can tell Phase four of the im CU is going through some growing pains. It is vision coming back, because they made it seem like one in one division, there's a new vision, Yes, white vision. Yes, um, I would assume. But I did read one of the articles I was reading about this. People were speculating that Paul Bettany hasn't signed another contract and that's why he wasn't there. But I don't care, okay, And I know a lot of that has like that type of depiction. But I just wondered because, yeah, one of the things like if you want her happy ending, this is not her happy ending. No oh no, I do have some more quotes I want to read. So this one is from Vulture. Dreams are windows into the lives of our multi versus cells, and for Wanda, her dreams involves being a suburban housewife without vision or any inkling of b Wanda's desires beyond her children. This dream comes across as even more claustrophobic. Apparently, Wanda, an immensely powerful witch who can bend reality, only aspires to be a mom. It's her single devouring need, and when it's not met, she loses her mind, leading to death and destruction for everyone around her. I feel like they agree with me. I think. So that's what I was like. Let's read this one. Um oh and also this one I like. Okay. Wanda's fate reminds me of de naar Assist Tagarians in the final season of Game of Thrones. Both stories depict power corrupting once beloved female characters, who are then demonized and ultimately disposed of. It's two. Why are we still being asked to see powerful men as heroes and powerful women as scary? Why are female characters only likable when they're struggling and weak. The plot arc of women becoming psychotic unable to control their own emotions serves the same energy of male pundits who frequently warn us that if we have a woman president, she'll knook the whole world, or she has a bad day or is on her period. Both are female characters and massive blockbuster fantasy stories who are embraced as likable, sympathetic protagonist when they're powerless or struggling, but how they're presented to audiences changes entirely. When they do obtain power. They become the villains, terrifying and ruthless in her almost immediately unceremoniously tossed aside as a result. And that's from Jezebel, which very good quote. Yeah, I mean I feel like it. It's true. It's the thing we keep talking about where we allow, and by we, I mean as of society and particularly creators allow women. You can come to this point, but only if you played by our rules. And then once you break those rules, once you become more powerful than doctor Strange, you've got to go. You can't, you can no longer exist, And just reducing them into only caring about motherhood and children, when like, again, if that's if that's with your character and it makes sense, fine, but it becomes like, oh, she's lost her mind, because if it becomes like female hysteria, it becomes that trope of oh she just wants kids. Now she's killing everybody. And I do feel like they try to address this in the movie when Wanda's like, why is it okay? Yeah, that you can break the rule was dr strange and not me, But they do it in kind of a strange way because she's so callous, she's bitter. She's bitter, and you don't root her. They give you like no reason immediately to root for her, like they all of that character development they did is just like nope, she's different, and then I don't know where she comes and kills Dennis the people when that the entirety of her makeup in the films has been how she grieves loss of life in general, Like that's how she comes to stop to work with Avengers because she sees the destruction happening around her community and so she's like, oh my god, I can't do this same way as how Westview ended, because she realized she was physically hurting people, so she had to stop. And yet it doesn't matter now, right right, And it's so quick, it's so quick. Yeah, and it's really without explanation, because again, if you haven't seen One Division, if you haven't even had that basic that that basis, you'd be like, where did these kids come from? Who are they? Yes? Yes? Uh? And as you mentioned earlier, I kind of chafed at oh, doctor Strange, can you use the dark Old? And he's fine, she can't like, get out, get out of here. Um. And by the way, the creator of WandaVision, Jacques Schaefer, once said of the show, it was extremely important to me that we not do the lazy thing of having a superpowered lady who can't handle her powers and goes crazy. It was being filmed when One Division was being filmed, though, so that's interesting. Uh. And here's a quote from the conversation. Wanda Maximov hasn't been given much positive character development. In contrast to Marvel's notorious villains, Wanda has no grand design, no desire to rule or destroy humanity. Her goal is limited to her self created picture of domestic happiness. She fights through unite with her two sons. Such treatment as an ill stration of the separate spheres sexist doctrine to men, the world is a stage, while women must limit themselves to the private sanctum of the house. But more problematic is the representation of one particular aspect of Banda's character, her anger in the film references to mythological and popular cultural figures a female anger are allusions to stereotypical expectations associated with women's conduct, and this is where the Medusa conversation opened up about basically women who have been really done wrong, and then when they fight back, their anger is seen as either ridiculous are just clearly written by men who want them to be killed off. Like see she's hysterical, Like maybe she was done wrong, but she is also bad uh and yeah she h Wanda and this movie was willing to kill other versions of herself, um, other children, anyone who'd gotten her way very violently, um, which is not good traits for someone you want to root for. Also, people wrote about America, who I want to do? Uh, I'm planning of feminist women around the world. On She's frequently displayed as the damsel of distress. Um. Here's a quote from The Daily Dot. She's wide eyed and vulnerable, a disneyfied characterization choice that also de sexualizes her comic book role. The m C. You took a cool, independent, queer Latina superhero and standed down all the hard edges that made her interesting. So yeah, in the comic book, she's one of the first young Avengers, which I think they're setting up because we've already talked about a bunch of them in these and the actor, Like everybody praised the actor, she would be great, but doesn't connect with what she is in the comics, right, Okay, Yeah, I don't know much about the comics, but yeah, she hard character was interesting. I guess her name was made. When when was she created? I think, Okay, okay, that says to me a lot like I'm sad for her name, but I know that that's a different thing. But yeah, I found it interesting because she is she's just being tossed about everywhere, constantly needing to be rescued, always losing people. Very orphan mentality. Yeah, and I mean she gets her moment at the end, but it's at the very end, right, of course, a lot of coaxing, which again kind of reminds me of younger Wanda when she has to be taught coaxed by Captain America and Hawkeye, very much like a lot of people wrote about that. They're like, it's always kind of there the male story, and they the women in it are like given this little bit where okay, you hero worship me, yes, yes, yes. There is also the scene that Samantha and I texted about a lot when she kills the Illuminati the other Avengers Wanda does, which was pretty graphic intense. It was like I kept thinking of like that version of Earth, like just because it's not our version doesn't mean that they're not going to suffer because you kill all of their avengers. Um. And then yeah, her other self, as you pointed out, the other wand to apparently is powerless in this world or she doesn't have that much power, or she doesn't use it because she's happy, and it's that kind of odd. She doesn't even try to fight. That's the thing is, like she doesn't even care that she killed people. She's my voice and runs away. Kind of odd moment of like I get it, you want to protect your boys, but you also just covered in blood and no, Okay, it definitely felt like it was saying, again, women can anidal you choose one or the other. You can't add this power and your happy life. You have to pick one. And if you have kids, you definitely don't care about other people, right, And I know you pointed this out, but people were tweeting about it afterwards about what is going on with Marvel and they're hanging up on motherhood and punishing women, whether it's mothers or not mothers. Because we have Black Widow an age of Ultron, she has her storyline of she was sterilized against her will and so she feels she is a monster because of it. She also feels like she's of less value and less worth. I found that really disgusting. Yeah yeah, because it kind of again came out of nowhere, reducing her again to her womb, her body, right, and that way she can only be matched. But who another monster the Hulk right right? Like that was a pretty obviously traumatizing experience. But to frame it in a way where she's like, oh, I'm a monster, I care how kids. No, I'm very eager to come back and talk about Jane Foster. But you haven't seen the new I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I can't tell you, but I think we should come back and talk about it, because that's him playing this conversation as well. Certainly, the death of Scarlett Witch, which was so quick and confusing, like I wasn't even sure she had died. Um, is a trend in Marvel movies where we're seeing like the same with Black Widow. She might have gotten like a more dramatic send off, but essentially, yeah, exactly. An iron Man meanwhile gets the whole like final thing, final funeral of these movies. Okay, cool, great. Here's a quote from Pace magazine. It's kind of a long one, but stick with me because I think it's good. Um. Because while Marvel Studios is certainly eager enough to out its feminist bona fides by pointing to Captain Marvel or Black Widow, the franchise still waited for twenty films to feature a female lead, and Carol Danvers Free Larson and sat on a Natasha Romanov Scarlett Johansson solo, adding for so long the character died first, essentially rendering the project useless for for any larger storytelling purpose. To be fair, want to Maximov certainly isn't the only woman the m c U has done dirty in recent years. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier turned to all American good girl and Peggy Carter's niece Sharon Carter into the leader of an international criminals send again. Loki Judge Sylvie a female variant of the God of Mischief, much more hartily than any of the male versions of the character, and they're all literally the same person. Laura Barton was apparently once a kick ass Shield agent, but her primary role in Hawkeye is to serve as a little more than Clint's emotional sounding board. After all, Wanda did the impossible thing that was asked of her by killing Vision. She undid Westview by her own choice, I might add, and said goodbye to him all over again. She's still suffering for all those things. But Strange gave Thanos the Timestone and stole five years from half of humanity in the process, all before literally ripping reality apart a second time as a favor to a teenager. He doesn't even like that much. The only consequence he's had to face is that one man was rude to him at a public event one time. Clint Barton spent five years of The Blips straight up murdering people in the name of some nebulous avengeance and not only gets immediately welcome back into the Avengers fold, but rewarded with his own series that can hardly even be bothered to say that what he did as Rounan was even bad. These things are not the same, agreed, Agreed again, a lot of this doesn't make sense. Once again, talking about Bucky. Bucky goes into his like solace and kind of torments himself, but everybody forgives him. He killed Tony's parents. They had one half a series about that, and everything was fine, one half one half of a movie about that, and then everything was just fine. They're very much again willing to give these male characters a lot more room for growth, for forgiveness then we are for women, where apparently it's just you get too powerful when you die, and that's it every time, every time. We don't even know. Maybe there'll be some hope in the New Black Panther. Maybe cross your fingers have the same thor so. I don't know yet, but yeah, all of these like we finally get some new female women representation in the New universe and they immediately die, which, by the way, Captain Marvel was supposed to be able to hold her own against Wanda. So I'm a little confused on how easily she died. I know she was at least the last to die, but still out well second to last, I guess, yeah, yeah, uh. And if you're confused with Captain Marvel and the other Earth, yes, yeah, because Captain Marvel and Scarlett Witch are the most powerful, supposed to be the most powerful, right she almost had Danos more so than one did it, although she could have, Yeah, she could. If they've done there together, God have been over. But all that to say is I don't understand how easily that she died like she was crushed by statue. I don't think that's supposed to kill her. Agreed, Agreed, And then I did want to briefly touch on Christine. You reached on my Adams is um doctor Stranger's girlfriend for lack of a better word, and eight three eight she's a scientist who's working with Illuminati, and people wrote about her like she had it feels like just crumbs though, but she had a bigger storyline perhaps, but they still turned her into a possession at the end the other doctor Strangers like give me Christine. Also she was a glorified assistant I guess with her own laps. Yes. And also he bothered her our doctor Strange bothered her at her wedding about why they weren't together anymore, like back up man. That sounds like a dude, though to be fair, it does sound like a person dude. And and Marvel definitely has a history of this, so does a lot of I mean, the Damsel in distress, the like girl friend. Love interest is not new and it's not unique to Marvel in any any sense, but it is certainly something I've been like, you have to make the woman a love interest in some way. Every time it didn't make sense. I still don't get the Hulkan call it, I mean the Hulkan Black Widow like that. They tried so hard with this that was like even Black Widow and Captain America would have made more sense than The Hulk. But okay, well, yeah, it was frustrating because you could tell and like every other movie they were trying to romantic interest for her. They were maybe this one will work and you don't need to do it at all. She could have just been happy. I would have rather seen her and Yelena's relationship me too. And I really liked like her and Captain America as platonic friends. But you could tell they were trying to suggest maybe maybe, but they could have just been platonic friends, and that was great. It was good, Like in Civil War. It was good. And then certainly there was a theme throughout this of the woman who is responsible for the euro's actions, like he becomes violent because of her, which is alsome not unique to Marvel, but um, if you haven't seen the what if episode with Doctor Strange, this is the whole theme where he like ruins the world to Sage Christine, and it was you could see it in this as well, where just these threads of like men being violent in the name of women who probably don't want them to do that anyway, but they feel good, they feel justified in it because it's for a woman. It's like the nine be nine sexism anyway. I did also want to mention, very briefly, there was the same sex causs in it. It was very brief, but it caused a huge uproar and it almost got removed, and in some markets that did get removed. Uh, so that's still that's still a thing as well, America between the parents, America's parents. Um, there's it's sure. I mean it's super sure. Yeah, they barely. I was like, I don't I think you'll blame miss it. But it cost a huge up for America is a lesbian in the comics, and as I said, I'm gonna I'm planning on returning to her for a future Women around the World, fictional women around the World. But I just wanted to mention it. Uh. But yeah, I think this is a successful I too Spoiled Saturdays, and I again, there's so much we could return to Because people wrote about this as they should, it didn't make sense and it says a lot for a multibillion dollar franchise. Why why why? Yes, Well continue to ask that question, uh in future episodes and to ourselves when we're trying to sleep at night. In the meantime, If there is a movie or TV show you would like for us to cover and Spoiled Saturdays, please let us know. You can email us at stuffide your mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or if you havent stuff I Never told you. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for listening. Stuff whe Never told you the production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from I Heeart Radio, you can visit a Heart Radio app Apple podcast already listen to your favorite shows
