WEBVTT
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00:00:13.359And welcome back to strategy meeting reality podcast.
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00:00:16.000And welcome back to the show.
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00:00:19.679I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Louise today.
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00:00:21.839Um, it's so great to have you on.
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00:00:25.359I've been trying to get you onto the show for a while, but you're a busy man.
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00:00:28.640So thank you for for joining me today.
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00:00:30.480Um that's very dear, Mike.
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00:00:31.039Thank you so much.
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00:00:36.159I know, yes, we've been talking and exchanging messages on LinkedIn about a lot of things, and finally we get to sit down.
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00:00:36.799So thank you.
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00:00:38.079Oh no, it's a pleasure.
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00:00:39.679Thank you for taking time to join me.
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00:00:46.479Just for our guest though, um, do you mind giving a bit of background and a bit of context what you've been up to lately?
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00:00:48.960Okay, so I'm a I'm a patent attorney.
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00:00:52.240I've been practicing, still practice every day, write patent applications.
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00:00:55.039I've been doing this for 25 years.
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00:01:00.799I have a degree in mechanical engineering, a degree in electrical engineering, and a law degree.
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00:01:04.000Social or legal engineering, I guess.
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00:01:07.359Um and uh and that's what I do for a living.
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00:01:14.079And for the last 10 years or so, I guess it's been 10 years now, I've been working on this thing called natural reality.
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00:01:17.040And I want to I wanted to share that with you today.
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00:01:19.760So yeah, I can't wait to hear more about it.
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00:01:21.599I've I've read quite a bit of it.
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00:01:24.719Um, and you've been kindly showing me stuff, so it's great.
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00:01:26.239So let's let's jump in.
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00:01:28.640Take us takes us on the journey.
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00:01:38.400I thought it's a strategy show, so why why don't we start from uh why don't we start from there and maybe I can get a feeling for what strategy is.
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00:01:39.200Yeah, yeah.
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00:01:42.480Um so I figured we'd start with a story.
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00:01:45.680The story, any story I tell you is made up, by the way.
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00:01:46.480It's not real.
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00:01:48.799I I don't I don't have a sister.
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00:01:50.640All right, so here we go.
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00:01:56.5603, 2, 1 Sister calls, says, bring shoes for the kids.
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00:01:58.239Boom, hang up.
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00:02:02.560I'm guessing she has two kids, but I know one fact.
00:02:02.799 -->
00:02:09.919I know that the average age of my sister's kids is 10 years old because my mom's a math teacher, she talks about stuff like that.
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00:02:16.240So grab go to the store, I grab two pairs of shoes, size 10, run to my sister's house.
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00:02:21.520When I get there, great news uh two kids.
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00:02:28.080So that guess was right, and even better, the average age was also 10.
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00:02:29.759So even that was right.
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00:02:33.759And then the kids come out, six and fourteen.
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00:02:35.280That's their actual age.
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00:02:37.520So the shoes don't fit anybody.
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00:02:38.879The end.
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00:02:44.400That's the story, and that's how that's how my strategy met reality that day.
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00:02:45.039Yeah, yeah.
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00:02:50.240Um so I was um so what did you would where's the strategy?
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00:02:51.759I challenge you to find one.
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00:02:53.759Yeah, that's interesting.
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00:03:00.319I suppose if anything, it's it's your with anything with strategy, it's a hypothesis, isn't it?
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00:03:15.439You're making hypothesis, you're making a decision, and you're gonna now you're testing that uh decision with reality, and then actually it turns out that your your decision uh uh didn't meet reality as well as you hoped to do.
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00:03:23.439So now you've got a situation um where you know more of the situation than you did previously.
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00:03:24.800Right.
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00:03:26.960Thank you.
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00:03:31.759So was that a bad strategy, you think, or a good strategy?
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00:03:34.400Maybe a run-of-the-mill strategy, I don't know.
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00:03:38.479Yeah, I think it is I I don't really get this idea of good or bad strategy.
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00:03:49.039I suppose it's a case of um reality's the test of everything, so we're only gonna know if it's gonna work if it depends on how it's going to meet reality.
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00:03:53.439Um, that's where the magic is.
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00:03:54.240Yeah.
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00:04:16.240Um, you know, when I when I so I my humble understanding of strategy, I'm not a strategist in any way, I'm a patent attorney, is that some strategies do better than others, but we often don't know beforehand how well the strategy is gonna do because we haven't met the reality, yes, as you as you said.
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00:04:25.759And so one of the questions that I thought about for a while, actually, it's tied to this project in a way, was why does that happen?
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00:04:27.360How does that happen?
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00:04:33.439Why are some realities, why do some realities, some strategies do better than others?
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00:04:35.199Is it the quality of the strategy?
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00:04:36.399Is it the execution?
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00:04:37.439What is it?
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00:04:44.319And you know, then I uh when I started thinking about that, I went back to the map territory distinction that I think we all know.
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00:04:46.720You know, the map is not the territory.
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00:04:47.279Yeah.
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00:05:10.160And I think the way we've looked at this in the past has been with the idea that the map and the territory are different things, and I think we've looked at it in a way where we think that the map is sort of a simplified version of the territory, an approximation of the territory.
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00:05:17.759The territory is infinitely complex, and the map is could be simple, yeah.
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00:05:20.319Simple enough to use to understand.
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00:05:23.120And so I thought about this problem for a long time.
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00:05:38.399Eventually I got to the conclusion that I used in my work, Natural Reality, which this will be a great way to jump into that, which is map and territory are not only different things that we know, but in addition to that, there are also different kinds of things.
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00:05:41.519Yes, they're different categories of things.
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00:05:46.959Yeah, one cannot be reduced into on on into the other one.
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00:05:56.399So they don't mix actually, they interact without mixing, and so that got me into the whole natural reality thing.
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00:06:06.639And and we are gonna use the idea that map and territory are not only different things, but they're also different kinds of things to then build an understanding of uh accessible reality.
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00:06:07.600Yes.
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00:06:21.600Okay, and I suppose I suppose that's the the point where with the question you said, well, how do we how do we do better strategies in the sense of how do we know if a strategy is going to do well or not?
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00:06:22.879And we never do know.
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00:06:26.879Um and I've had this before where people have said, How do we know this is gonna work?
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00:06:28.399And I'm like, Well, I don't know.
00:06:28.800 -->
00:06:41.680But I suppose uh if we were to look at why do some strategies do better than others, then there's always uh people can argue there's always a bit of luck in there, but I think it's what we're trying to get onto here.
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00:06:49.439I think it's that bit around are you even though they're different things, but are you completely detached from those things?
00:06:49.600 -->
00:06:57.600And I think that's where I found with some leaders that have done strategy the strategy is not even based on a map, let alone a terrain.
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00:07:01.600So, or if it's a map, the map is of a different terrain completely.
00:07:01.759 -->
00:07:12.000Um Yeah, it's like if you compared, for instance, a cat with a Monday, you would know that those are different kinds of things.
00:07:12.240 -->
00:07:17.759And here with map and territory, we haven't traditionally looked at it that way, at least as far as I can tell.
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00:07:25.120No, I'm not a big reader here necessarily, but from the last 10 years of working on this, that's what it looks like.
00:07:25.279 -->
00:07:27.360And so let's do this.
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00:07:32.079What do you call a strategy that survives reality intact?
00:07:32.240 -->
00:07:33.519Do you know what you call that?
00:07:33.759 -->
00:07:35.279A coincidence.
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00:07:40.079You said luck, and I was like, Oh, yeah, that joke.
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00:07:42.000Let me see here.
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00:07:44.319So let's uh is it okay if I share a screen?
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00:07:45.279Yeah, yeah, cool.
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00:07:48.560Um let's let's just jump into the basics of natural reality.
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00:07:53.680I I figured if we do five minutes of natural reality, we'll have enough to talk about after that.
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00:07:54.160Yeah.
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00:07:56.160Um, so let me click share.
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00:07:57.839Let me know if I'm not sharing something right.
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00:07:59.279I'm not great with this stuff.
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00:08:07.839So uh so we're gonna look at uh so this is a this is a little map, and it looks like almost nothing.
00:08:08.000 -->
00:08:11.920There are three colors and a couple of lines, maybe one line.
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00:08:15.519Uh, but it's what we're gonna use uh to sort things out.
00:08:15.759 -->
00:08:28.639Things like mind-body uh duality, the observer problem, uh wave particle duality, uh, even things that we usually think about as human condition issues like uh anxiety, loneliness.
00:08:28.800 -->
00:08:32.320Uh, we're gonna handle a lot of things from this simple diagram.
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00:08:32.879Yeah.
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00:08:35.279And so it is an important diagram.
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00:08:41.440Um and so what it's showing is there's a this is a picture, uh a model of a natural process.
00:08:41.600 -->
00:08:43.840In this case, we're talking about human beings.
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00:08:50.320So it's a picture of a human being in natural reality, a model of a human being in natural reality.
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00:08:51.200Yeah.
00:08:51.759 -->
00:08:57.679And so uh the inside the red space, that's where your mind is.
00:08:59.519 -->
00:09:12.159Um everything, uh, everything that you that you make, your ideas, the images you see, the sounds your mind produces, every memory, every instinct, whatever is inside of you is represented in red.
00:09:12.399 -->
00:09:19.600Because, like I said, that's in the map territory analogy, this is your map, this is the map that's showing you where your map is.
00:09:19.759 -->
00:09:20.559Yeah, right.
00:09:20.720 -->
00:09:22.399So your map's inside.
00:09:23.039 -->
00:09:27.919Outside, in the blue space, that's where the action happens.
00:09:28.480 -->
00:09:34.639It's the world of happening, and it's colored blue just to show it's a different kind of thing than red.
00:09:36.559 -->
00:09:44.399Um, there is inside the red space, the stuff that's in there, we're gonna have a name for that.
00:09:44.559 -->
00:09:46.240We're gonna call it meaning.
00:09:46.960 -->
00:09:53.440So the process as a whole produces and handles meaning inside in the red space.
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00:09:56.559It's just the name we're giving to all of that stuff.
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00:10:02.320Um, and outside we're gonna have this other thing we're gonna call happening.
00:10:02.480 -->
00:10:06.799It's the pure actions, just the actions themselves without interpretation.
00:10:07.120 -->
00:10:07.759Yeah.
00:10:08.240 -->
00:10:12.159And the truth is, I'm gonna just make a quick parenthesis here.
00:10:12.240 -->
00:10:17.360I'm not gonna suggest that we can we actually know what's outside of our individual minds.
00:10:17.600 -->
00:10:19.039That would be a crazy claim.
00:10:19.279 -->
00:10:23.279We only know what our minds produce, that has never changed.
00:10:23.919 -->
00:10:28.399Um, but this model just happens to work.
00:10:28.559 -->
00:10:30.000That's why I've been working on this for 10 years.
00:10:30.159 -->
00:10:38.799So if we model the unknowable outside as a world of happening where uninterpreted action is occurring, then the whole thing makes sense.
00:10:38.960 -->
00:10:40.320Yeah, it just happened that way.
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00:10:44.240Kind of like finding the right filament for the light bulb kind of thing.
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00:10:49.200Eventually you find a boundary that works, something that works, and the whole thing falls into place.
00:10:49.519 -->
00:10:50.879Um, so that's what we have.
00:10:51.039 -->
00:10:55.200Sorry about the digression, but we have uh meaning on the inside, happening on the outside.
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00:11:00.399And the interesting thing is they don't mix that yellow line you see, that boundary.
00:11:00.639 -->
00:11:00.960Yeah.
00:11:01.279 -->
00:11:09.279Uh um, without that boundary, by the way, everything I talk about is gonna sound like total metaphysics.
00:11:10.399 -->
00:11:20.080What makes this real or brings this to a real usable thing is that we can tell you exactly what this boundary is and how it works.
00:11:20.240 -->
00:11:30.240And um, do you want to take a guess as to where you think that boundary is between the inside of a natural process and the outside of that process?
00:11:33.120 -->
00:11:36.000Um I can ask in a different way.
00:11:36.320 -->
00:11:38.799Yeah, where does your mind end?
00:11:41.120 -->
00:11:42.240Where's my mind end?
00:11:42.399 -->
00:11:43.200Oh, that's a good question.
00:11:43.360 -->
00:11:43.759Yes.
00:11:44.399 -->
00:11:46.000Well, that's a good question.
00:11:46.159 -->
00:11:47.120Where does it end?
00:11:47.360 -->
00:11:58.159Um I suppose it's in the outside of my body, but you know, it's it's it doesn't extend the boundary of my my body.
00:11:58.720 -->
00:11:59.039Right.
00:11:59.200 -->
00:12:00.799And that's the traditional answer.
00:12:00.879 -->
00:12:04.559It comes back, it goes back to the 1640s, I think.
00:12:04.799 -->
00:12:13.120Descartes was the guy that gave us this great idea of let's split a human being into mind and body.
00:12:13.440 -->
00:12:23.759Yeah, right, and so now you have two things to work with, which is great news for if you're a doctor and you're having to prescribe something to treat somebody, then you know, well, is this a mind thing?
00:12:23.840 -->
00:12:24.799Is this a body thing?
00:12:25.279 -->
00:12:26.720You have something to work with.
00:12:27.039 -->
00:12:28.399You have a map, right?
00:12:28.960 -->
00:12:40.720Uh but that map, however useful it has been, it doesn't really, you know, it tells you what you're saying to me, which is I think my mind goes to the edge of my skull, perhaps, where my brain is, maybe.
00:12:41.200 -->
00:12:43.519It's not a question we're used to asking.
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00:12:45.039No, right?
00:12:45.519 -->
00:12:48.559It may be one of the first times they were asking that question.
00:12:48.799 -->
00:12:49.200Could be.
00:12:49.279 -->
00:12:50.000I don't know.
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00:12:57.679Um, but the answer to that question is probably unexpected, but it's light.
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00:13:05.039The edge of the mind is electro, it's an it's an electromagnetic boundary.
00:13:05.600 -->
00:13:06.399Oh, right.
00:13:08.320 -->
00:13:13.519And we're we um we're gonna go through a few diagrams that are gonna show how all of that works.
00:13:13.600 -->
00:13:21.759Uh, it's not that complicated, but in a nutshell, uh, and by the way, when I say light, I don't mean the light you see with your eyes.
00:13:22.000 -->
00:13:25.440I mean all electromagnetic phenomena.
00:13:26.240 -->
00:13:32.559So things that we call light and things that we call electricity underneath it all are the same phenomenon.
00:13:33.039 -->
00:13:39.120One is radiating and the other one is propagating in the in the uh you know along a wire, as we say.
00:13:39.600 -->
00:13:41.039But as Mr.
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00:13:46.559Uh Maxwell told us, I don't know what year that was, it was a couple hundred years ago.
00:13:46.720 -->
00:13:51.279Uh, light and electricity are really the same phenomenon, and that's what this boundary is.
00:13:51.519 -->
00:13:58.320What this means is, for instance, when you say, I'll just show you how this works, kind of just to get a working understanding of this.
00:13:58.480 -->
00:14:06.159So light hits a coffee cup, bounces off of it, and that hits your retina.
00:14:06.879 -->
00:14:26.559The image that you see of the coffee cup pops up inside of you, it's produced inside of you by your mind in response to that boundary signal that you can watch propagating across what we call your nervous system, right?
00:14:27.039 -->
00:14:45.279Yes, so uh you effectively have an electromagnetic interface, or you are the interface, actually, you are the process making this transformation between blue and red, but that transformation is mediated by light, and so light is the boundary.
00:14:45.360 -->
00:14:57.840When you open the windows in the morning, and all that light's there, you see all of that stuff, the external world is on the other side of that light.
00:14:59.600 -->
00:15:07.360All right, by the time you see anything, feel anything, think anything, that's none of that can be external.
00:15:07.519 -->
00:15:09.039All of that is your mind.
00:15:10.000 -->
00:15:17.919The real external shared space where actions are taking place sits beyond on the other side of light.
00:15:18.000 -->
00:15:20.960We don't have direct access to happening.
00:15:21.679 -->
00:15:29.759And the way it sits is if you can I don't have the right colors here, and I don't I'm not in front of the camera, I realize now.
00:15:29.919 -->
00:15:35.039Um, but let's go to the next diagram and I'll show you uh uh just a little bit more.
00:15:35.919 -->
00:15:38.720Uh let me see if I had any notes about this.
00:15:38.879 -->
00:15:47.440So just one more thing I wanted to make sure the boundary I say about the boundary, which is it's clearly two bidirectional.
00:15:47.759 -->
00:15:53.919Uh so happening outside induces meaning inside.
00:15:54.639 -->
00:16:06.799Yes, you as a natural process transform the boundary signal into meaning, and that transformation is what I'm talking about.
00:16:06.960 -->
00:16:14.559So you transform happening into meaning inside, yes, and meaning into happening inside, outside.
00:16:14.879 -->
00:16:22.960So when you uh reach for that cup, for instance, you saw the cup, now some instinct, some meaning inside of you, you're thirsty, whatever the feeling is.
00:16:24.000 -->
00:16:40.480Uh now to reach for the cup to to close the gap that you produced, I want to have this cup in some way, then you issue a light signal too, and you issue that through your nervous system, the motor neurons, and you move pull tendons, move muscles, and you grab the cup.
00:16:40.720 -->
00:16:43.279And so that interface is always there.
00:16:43.440 -->
00:16:49.600We're dealing with a map inside to navigate a territory outside that effectively goes unseen.
00:16:51.440 -->
00:16:54.639Uh, and that's kind of like the gist of this diagram.
00:16:55.200 -->
00:16:55.759Yeah.
00:16:56.159 -->
00:17:05.680I suppose the when we talk about meaning is that um I suppose that's the thing that makes it all unique to you, right?
00:17:05.920 -->
00:17:25.839Because we we can have people um in the same room looking at the same stuff or or look well observing that happening space, but it's it's how they then create that meaning of what that is and what it represents and what it means is where we can create difference.
00:17:26.799 -->
00:17:28.160Absolutely, yeah.
00:17:28.400 -->
00:17:30.480Absolutely, and I have a diagram for that too.
00:17:30.559 -->
00:17:31.920Um, maybe we'll get to it.
00:17:32.000 -->
00:17:35.359Um and I think you're right on the money.
00:17:35.920 -->
00:17:36.640So thank you.
00:17:36.720 -->
00:17:40.960I think that's a that's uh affirmation in my world, so thank you.
00:17:41.119 -->
00:17:44.160Uh, but there's a catch, and here's the catch, okay?
00:17:44.240 -->
00:17:59.920And it catches all of us, it's not just you or me, or it it's all of us, which is this from the inside, from inside of your own mind, you only ever know your own inside.
00:18:02.079 -->
00:18:05.519From the inside, you never see the outside.
00:18:07.599 -->
00:18:44.240Um, but you don't necessarily know that, and that's what we call in natural reality the blindfold is every natural process is blindfolded within its own red space, essentially blinded by light in a way, yeah, and operating from inside a command center, and uh and but the but the truth here and the catch is is a wrinkle on this, which is from the inside you don't realize that you don't see the outside.
00:18:44.480 -->
00:18:50.880It looks and feels because perception works the way it does, the mind presents things that are ready made.
00:18:51.119 -->
00:19:01.759Yeah, you have no reason to second guess where you are until you start to ask questions like uh like we were talking about earlier.
00:19:01.920 -->
00:19:03.440Where does my mind end?
00:19:03.920 -->
00:19:08.559Yeah, so we needed a whole new set of questions, really.
00:19:08.960 -->
00:19:13.359I mean, you know, these things grow together, so questions and answers, they kind of yeah, yeah.
00:19:13.599 -->
00:19:19.279But we ended up in a place where even the questions are very different from the questions we were asking before.
00:19:19.519 -->
00:19:29.759Um and so um what happens then if you uh if if you have more than one mind, right?
00:19:29.839 -->
00:19:32.880Because the there's me, there's you, there's all of us.
00:19:33.119 -->
00:19:34.960What happens when you have multiple minds?
00:19:35.039 -->
00:19:38.960And so I'll keep sharing the screen and go to a different figure here.
00:19:39.039 -->
00:19:48.799This is, by the way, what we're looking at here, we just looked at is chapter one of a book called The Abstractionist Papers that is available for free.
00:19:48.880 -->
00:19:51.039Uh welcome to the bluespace.com.
00:19:51.200 -->
00:19:58.880And this what we just looked at is just figure one of that um you know, 13th chapter volume.
00:19:59.039 -->
00:20:03.200Yeah, and I'll I'll put the link to this on the show notes.
00:20:03.279 -->
00:20:11.119So if people watch the listening or watching, they want it, it'll be in the show notes, linking straight to um the extractionist.
00:20:12.000 -->
00:20:12.799Thank you.
00:20:13.119 -->
00:20:16.960And so uh what happens when we have many minds, and so we have another diagram.
00:20:17.039 -->
00:20:20.160This is figure three, still in chapter one.
00:20:21.440 -->
00:20:31.920And this is the map that um that if I had to say what is natural reality, if I had to put it in uh in a in a message in a bottle, right?
00:20:32.000 -->
00:20:36.640And I only had limited expression, this would be the expression.
00:20:36.960 -->
00:20:42.240And the the expression itself carries no meaning, by the way, like we just talked about, so I have to explain it.
00:20:42.480 -->
00:20:43.119Yeah.
00:20:43.680 -->
00:20:47.839Um, but uh but we have multiple minds.
00:20:47.920 -->
00:20:50.160There's three minds in that diagram.
00:20:50.240 -->
00:20:54.079Um, they sit in parallel with respect to one another.
00:20:54.319 -->
00:20:58.079So my world sits in parallel with yours.
00:20:58.880 -->
00:21:05.759Uh they don't meet, there's no red space between us, there's no bridge of meaning between us.
00:21:07.119 -->
00:21:15.440And each of our minds has its own uh uh surrounded by its own light curtain, its own boundary.
00:21:16.000 -->
00:21:35.519And uh each mind sits orthogonal or perpendicular to the cause to the blue space, the causation domain, the shared outside, multiple names, because the work's been a decade in the making, so it's taken multiple names over the last years, the last several years, but that's the shared space.
00:21:35.599 -->
00:21:49.440And so if you think just in simple terms, in terms of inside outside, uh you have the inside orthogonal to the outside through uh a natural transform that's mediated by light.
00:21:51.039 -->
00:21:52.640So, in a nutshell, that's how that works.
00:21:52.720 -->
00:21:56.559And then you think, well, what does that mean, for instance, when I want to talk to how we're even talking then?
00:21:56.640 -->
00:22:02.480If you're stuck in your mind, and I'm my mind and the minds are in parallel.
00:22:02.880 -->
00:22:07.279So how do how does how did how did communications, how does that work, right?
00:22:08.079 -->
00:22:11.759Um so ready for another story?
00:22:12.160 -->
00:22:12.720Yes.
00:22:13.599 -->
00:22:14.960Also not a true story.
00:22:15.680 -->
00:22:17.680No story here is gonna be true.
00:22:18.319 -->
00:22:18.640Okay.
00:22:19.039 -->
00:22:20.240Three, two, one.
00:22:22.319 -->
00:22:31.279Um so John and and uh John and Bob are walking down the sidewalk coming the other way Yoko.
00:22:32.880 -->
00:22:42.799Ten feet apart she blurts out you're ugly Bob thinks it's the funniest thing he's ever heard just laughing it off.
00:22:44.079 -->
00:23:02.880John erects him his he can't get out of the house for days same three words you're ugly two completely different realities John and Bob the end.
00:23:03.759 -->
00:24:04.799That's the end of the story different it's the different meanings of the of what's happening right exactly so I'll let's just walk through it because a lot of this uh is walking through it really but so Yoko had some meaning in her whatever it was I don't know what it was you don't know what it was we could guess but we don't know what it is and then she turned that meaning into an expression the way we do she vocalized something she said something so the words out loud and that but that expression is happening out in the blue space so if you think of yoko if we're still looking at the diagram right so if you thought of yoko as mind n and imagine that she's coming in between walking in between minds n minus one and mind n plus one so Bob and John are there and she's walking right between them her expression is happening in the blue space.
00:24:05.680 -->
00:24:29.359Everything that's happening every action is occurring in the blue space um the meaning that she had whatever her intention was whatever she was thinking about that never leaves her that's inside of her of course red space Bob and John catch the same expression in the blue space but they have to build their own meaning from it just like we all do.
00:24:31.839 -->
00:24:38.000And so I don't know I guess maybe in this case maybe John had some sort of connection to Yoko and he felt hurt.
00:24:38.079 -->
00:24:41.279That's his context and and Bob couldn't care less.
00:24:41.359 -->
00:24:45.680He just thought it was hilarious to be called a name for no reason walking down the street.
00:24:59.119 -->
00:24:59.759Yes.
00:25:00.400 -->
00:25:47.920Right um one interesting thing about this story because I've told this story before is that um we're not talking about their feelings we're not talking about people's feelings we're talking about their worlds the the whole inside because if you think about feelings we'd be trivializing the situation that feelings come from their understanding of the expression yes and so underlying their feelings come that first instinctual understanding of the expression which is on each of us right we're the ones doing it so that they they they make they make meaning and from the meaning then then they can it will go to feelings.
00:25:48.720 -->
00:26:31.359Yeah that once once it's in then it gets processed in just like anything else you have in there you know and uh because it's produced it's not so it's just a different way of seeing your reality is not coming from the outside it's being uh triggered some things are being triggered yes but your reality is being processed inside right and and this is why I often say to leaders that I work with like things would be a lot easier if we all all us humans had a big board behind us and it told me exactly how you've uh got meaning interpreted what you're thinking in in implicitly what you're holding.
00:26:31.839 -->
00:27:38.400If we can get that explicit and understandable things would be easier but there's always going to be um uh a difference because even if I could read it I'm gonna attach a different meaning to what I'm reading anyway so we're never ever gonna be have this hundred percent um alignment it's just impossible because of it it all it all varies on meaning and what we attach that meaning right and when you understand this isn't everything a lot more magical I mean it is that anything even works right this exchange is a miracle um and I I that's that's how natural reality sees it too um and the interesting thing here I think the takeaway here from this diagram so um I don't know what do we have next maybe I have another story for you yeah um is uh is that you know meaning does not transfer right so we're all producing our meaning like you said and the expressions is what share.
00:27:39.039 -->
00:27:39.440Yes.
00:27:40.160 -->
00:27:45.599And somehow things still work because as you said we don't need to have the same meaning in our minds for things to work.
00:27:45.680 -->
00:27:54.240We need to have worlds that are sufficiently harmonized to functionally work well together from their own insides.
00:27:55.039 -->
00:28:10.880And I say functionally work well not to share some sort of reality in a way the reality that is shared is the world of happening we can't directly see we can appreciate but we can't detect with our eyes or anything.
00:28:11.039 -->
00:28:29.680And so um so that gets us to a good place to go to the next story which is if we're if we're inside and things still work anyway we can um oh by the way you did say something I wanted to go back to is it okay if we just make a quick digression here I think this will we'll show you something that could be useful.
00:28:29.839 -->
00:28:37.680Let me go to another diagram here because by the time we get to so the book progresses from these more abstract images to then more relatable things.
00:28:37.839 -->
00:28:44.720And so by the time we get to chapter three uh even though it's still in sort of engineering diagrams can you see this diagram?
00:28:44.960 -->
00:28:49.359Yeah yeah so you got the this is exactly what you were saying in natural reality terms.
00:28:49.440 -->
00:28:59.200And so this is how communication works which it goes unappreciated in in when we are living in what I call naive reality where we just don't appreciate the outside.
00:28:59.440 -->
00:29:30.160And so here we go person a me I have meaning a inside on the left in my red space and so I issue a signal across the light boundary and produce a happening on the outside that transform I transformed my process me transformed my meaning into some shared happening which is that expression in the middle I draw the expression as a squiggle because the expression itself the way we're modeling natural reality is just the action.
00:29:30.319 -->
00:29:38.319So as soon as we start talking about it we started to attach meaning to it now we have to start to be careful.
00:29:38.559 -->
00:29:42.319And so I don't usually draw things in the blue space as anything you can recognize.
00:29:42.400 -->
00:29:44.319It's just the wiggle to show that there's something there.
00:29:44.400 -->
00:30:13.839But what that represents the wiggle in the middle what it represents is not the atoms it's not the molecules it's not the chemistry it's the actions that we cannot perceive and then those actions that expression uh you on your side in a different red space transform that expression into meaning across the light boundary and uh and then you have meaning B and meaning A couldn't possibly be the same as meaning B.
00:30:14.000 -->
00:30:20.319If when you interpret the same expression twice you don't assign the same meaning to that expression.
00:30:20.559 -->
00:30:20.799No.
00:30:22.559 -->
00:30:38.720And that's the same world interpreting the same thing but just trying to cross that river twice right yeah you can't do it and much less when you have a blue space in between like nothing crosses the way you usually think it does.
00:30:38.960 -->
00:30:41.119Yeah it's just a different way to look at it.
00:30:41.200 -->
00:30:52.559And I think when it comes to what you were talking about about the assumption that hey my meaning is coming out with the words themselves that's very natural.
00:30:52.880 -->
00:30:56.000I've lived I'm gonna be 50 50 this year.
00:30:56.079 -->
00:31:04.240I've lived 40 plus without paying attention to these things either so that's I think that's very natural.
00:31:04.400 -->
00:31:04.799Yeah.
00:31:05.200 -->
00:31:17.920But the truth is it it leaves a lot on the table when you do things that way because you're assuming people are getting your meaning when they're not and you're assuming you're getting theirs when you're not yeah so a lot of things become a lot more confusing that way.
00:31:18.240 -->
00:31:36.880And I see this definitely in the strategy development plates because it becomes quite an abstract thing anyway because they are talking about and trying to explain um something that doesn't quite exist.
00:31:36.960 -->
00:31:43.920So if they don't have some sort of mutual orientation or mutual thing that they can observe it makes it even worse.
00:31:44.319 -->
00:32:11.119And this is why I was when we do strategy we always model the best we can so we create a terrain so we create the actors so we create the the conflicts that we we deem are happening um the the constraints all that stuff so we try and make a visual representation of something that doesn't actually um exist.
00:32:13.119 -->
00:32:37.039Not yet it's not it does exist in parts but then because those parts are separate we we attach different meanings to those things whereas trying to get it into um some sort of visual representation that we can then start to try and close the gap I suppose um to make that mutual understanding a lot easier.
00:32:37.440 -->
00:33:35.759Yeah and you mentioned something I think we're connecting all the dots uh uh that I was gonna try to so thank you which is um you know if if you're um so it's a lot easier to agree with somebody on anything to be productive of somebody on anything if you if your orientations are somewhat similar you know or compatible not similar is not the right way to think about it's not about aligning things it's about compatibility and um and so um you know the the the when we talk about meaning is one thing that is in there that we get into a little bit later in the book but we should mention here now is that one of the things that gets one of the ways that we model that meaning inside is through the application of rules like a process is always enforcing rules against itself.
00:33:37.839 -->
00:34:02.000And that's how we model their transformation it's not necessarily they're consciously applying rules but when you're driving down the street in a car and the street leans to the left right the the road goes to the left and you turn the wheel to the left the steering wheel to the left and you take a left uh where was that rule that made you do that it was inside of you.
00:34:02.640 -->
00:34:30.960And so um that's one of the things that we when we start going into what's in each red space which we do a lot of uh that's one of the things we wrestle with and so when we're talking about meaning imagine if you and I had to agree whether some expression is fair that would be very difficult unless you and I had compatible ideas of what fair is or how that works.
00:34:31.280 -->
00:35:30.400If my idea of fair in my red space is if I'm a toddler and my idea of fair is that everything belongs to me right yeah not just toddlers um and you are a bar uh you're say you're in middle school right and you're like well my idea of fairness is that uh sharing I like to share um well in that case if we're debating some expression in the middle I'm working off of some rule some standard and you're working off of a completely different standard and those standards are invisible to us and we can talk past each other all day about why you're wrong or why I'm wrong and we're really talking about completely different things because in my world fairness is not what it means to you at all the rules are different not just the way we feel about it.
00:35:30.559 -->
00:35:32.320It's a very practical thing.
00:35:33.920 -->
00:38:56.239And so that brings us to how do what about orientation john boyd talked a lot about orientation right yes yeah and uh in natural natural reality doesn't talk too much about orientation as orientation it doesn't involve boyd's work it's unrelated but there's some similarities um and in our work the closest thing to what Boyd calls orientation we call that perspective it's a different word yeah but somewhat similar mechanism as it turns out so um story time let's do a story real fast let me uh I like these stories they're short yeah yeah and is the quiz afterwards I'm like uh we're hoping you write the answer well I love the quiz I learned so much from because I you know that's that's where the money is for me by the way yeah um so uh all right so here we go three two one the lemonade stand so uh two kids a good kid and a bad kid they go into business together they're splitting everything 50-50 day one the good kid shows up sets up the lemonade stand squeezes the lemons sells it all counts the money end of the day staring down the stand now the bad kid shows up hand out time to get paid the good kid is good so he does give the bad kid half of the money that was the deal day two same thing happens day three same thing happens he does all the work keeps splitting 5050 but every time he does that there's something inside of him that feels a little wrong and by day six all of that wrongness has accumulated to the point that he just changes his mind and now the 5050 deal just isn't where fairness is anymore now to him fairness is what you put in you get what you put in buddy you're not showing up here you're not taking any money the end so um so let me see here um let me uh instead of uh I know we're probably gonna run out of time so let me just go to a diagram that I think explains the story in natural reality we extend a little bit oh we can we can extend a little bit yeah yeah we'll extend a little longer yeah let me see can you see the full diagram I'm trying to share or are you just seeing a part of it no I've seen it the whole causation domain um processes all right beautiful so this is figure five um chapter one of the papers is about a theory of mind chapter two is about how each individual mind works um and John Boyd as we were mentioning earlier has the OODA loop and that's a model of sort of intelligence and how orientation emerges in a way yes I don't know if you describe it exactly that way but that's just how I humbly see it's it's more about yes guys how how they make sense of what they're observing.
00:38:56.320 -->
00:39:25.599So orientation is is the um the sense making of of right observing yeah and this is somewhat similar it just came from a different place but it ends up in a similar place and the idea here is if you can take your car you can drive your car to the mall you can drive your car to a wedding you can drive your car into the lake but whatever you do with that car under the hood there's one engine and that engine is doing one thing.
00:39:26.960 -->
00:41:57.760And so that's the idea we're bringing here and trying to find the engine of the mind it doesn't matter what you're doing with the thoughts you think you're thinking the projects you're working on what's the nugget that makes it all go and so that's the map and I'll in a nutshell here uh in the blue space is the world of happening so we have these processes happening out there that's what's around the red box that happening induces uh meaning inside and I treat this uh from an engineering background as sort of like an electrical transformer you can see a winding on the processes and a winding on the inside on the interpretation some lightning bolts yeah that's electrical induction you know like an electrical transformer really but here for reality for for these signals and so um the happening induces meaning inside we're gonna call that it that interpretation so I mean you interpreted the happening and then that interpretation gets compared with expectation that you already carry inside or you produce inside so you have expectations you compare those two your interpretations using some logic that's the block in the middle whatever rule you're applying to the situation uh and from that difference between what you interpreted and what you expected applying the logic comes a defit a discrepancy a deficiency some sort of conflict between the two if they don't match if they match you just loop around when they don't match you have the yellow triangle which I labeled a paradox but for purposes what we're talking about is just a gap between your expectations and what you're seeing your interpretations under that logic that you're applying and so when there's a gap when something's not quite right like I was saying the little boy he pays the other guy the bad kid but he's not something doesn't sit right with him that's an example of him watching himself pay this kid but somehow there's something about paying him and what he expects out of the work he put that day something is not adding up he he wouldn't be able to tell you what it is on day one most likely it's just gonna bug him yeah and it's gonna sit there as a little yellow triangle if he can do you see the number one in the diagram with a circle if he can change the way he's interpreting the happening he can potentially bring that paradox to zero he can reconcile the conflict if he can just see things differently.
00:41:57.840 -->
00:43:29.360So that's number one if he can change what he expects which is number two maybe that's the way things are maybe well whatever it is change his expectations about things then he can also bring the paradox to zero and call it a day or he can learn a new rule like instantly for instance you're playing uh you're making a move on a card game you play make a wrong move and somebody says that's not the rule this is the rule you go to the rule book you find out now the logic changed right just like that yeah and so that's number three that's a different way to reconcile the gap the potential that you're building inside that's a potential for change by the way now if all fails and you keep accumulating the paradox there every day because there's nothing you can do about the way you see there's nothing you can do about the way you expect and you can't find anything any different logic so the paradoxes just grow in there then we go to mechanism number four which is I believe what Boyd referred to as destruction and creation you effectively destroy at least a portion of the inside and you rebuild a new perspective that's what the number four is and what we're saying here about perspective is an orientation and that perspective is how you set your own relationship to the logic below.
00:43:30.159 -->
00:43:30.639Yes.
00:43:30.960 -->
00:43:47.599The diagram is not perfect because your perspective also changes the way you interpret it also changes what you expect but the main function so it really is the whole thing in a way but it's the chair you're sitting in to do anything from that's your perspective.
00:43:47.679 -->
00:43:56.159So you may be aware of the logic you're applying to some degree but you're choosing to apply it in a different way because now you have a different perspective.
00:43:56.480 -->
00:43:56.800Yes.
00:43:57.039 -->
00:44:05.519And that's my uh explanation in natural reality For a natural progression, the natural emergence of orientation.
00:44:06.239 -->
00:44:23.440It emerges through the accumulation of unresolvable or unresolved conflict, which at some point tilts the economic balance between is it cheaper to restructure the inside?
00:44:26.239 -->
00:44:26.559Yeah.
00:44:26.800 -->
00:44:27.039Right?
00:44:28.239 -->
00:44:35.440Or is it or is it cheaper to keep it the way it is now and deal with what's outside with the conflict?
00:44:35.519 -->
00:44:39.119So do you keep dealing with the conflict at a cost, at an ongoing cost?
00:44:40.239 -->
00:44:44.719Or do you restructure your perspective and deal with things from a different place?
00:44:45.039 -->
00:44:45.360Yeah.
00:44:45.679 -->
00:44:55.599Because it and this is the really crucial thing about the relationship between the two, because we can't have we can't have that without our interaction with reality.
00:44:56.239 -->
00:45:12.719Because if it if it's just all internal and we're not doing anything and it we're just doing it internally, then we're not we don't have um I suppose that uh that feedback from the um external environment to to see if there is a paradox to go on.
00:45:13.039 -->
00:45:32.639And I suppose your point as well is that you you still that's probably why you see people that even though reality is doing something, they are they're not updating um or dealing with it, they're just sort of pushing it away, almost denying the thing exists.
00:45:32.800 -->
00:45:39.199But I wonder if it's in there, they're they're just they're not they're not changing their perspective or logic.
00:45:39.360 -->
00:45:39.599Right.
00:45:39.679 -->
00:45:49.119It just and what you're what what you're dancing around is the distinction between um evolution and emergence.
00:45:49.360 -->
00:45:49.840Yes.
00:45:50.079 -->
00:46:09.920It's one way to feel that distinction is evolution is when when a system, a process keeps optimizing and changing its inside without necessarily, you know, you're you're changing things, but without that pressure to emerge, to change your relationship to the rules inside.
00:46:10.079 -->
00:46:18.159So in evolution, the difference between evolution and emergence is what's your relationship to the rules that you were playing by before?
00:46:18.400 -->
00:46:21.599If you're still playing by the same rules, you've evolved.
00:46:21.840 -->
00:46:25.679If you're playing by effectively different rules, you've emerged.
00:46:26.400 -->
00:46:31.760And the difference between the two is remember when I told you, well, I was still looking at the diagram.
00:46:31.920 -->
00:46:35.440I think we have the logic and we have our perspective.
00:46:35.679 -->
00:46:40.079Um, our perspective controls how we apply the rules.
00:46:40.159 -->
00:46:49.760So, for instance, one way to model this is the kid had in his mind the idea that everything was his, a toddler, mine, mine, mine, mine.
00:46:49.920 -->
00:46:53.199But every day, everybody's telling that kid otherwise.
00:46:53.280 -->
00:46:54.400Like you have to share.
00:46:54.480 -->
00:46:56.880And so he's doing that, he's struggling.
00:46:56.960 -->
00:47:00.719You can tell that the process is struggling.
00:47:00.960 -->
00:47:01.280Yeah.
00:47:01.599 -->
00:47:08.159Um, and but the only but but you can only tell because it's interacting with the outside.
00:47:08.400 -->
00:47:19.760Like that's where the struggle comes from, from the dealing with the unknowable without being able to recognize that that's unknowable unknown or unknowable, that that's outside.
00:47:20.159 -->
00:47:22.320So the conflicts accumulate inside.
00:47:22.480 -->
00:47:24.880And and here's the here's the interesting thing about this.
00:47:25.039 -->
00:47:28.159Each of these diagrams could probably talk for a week, really.
00:47:28.400 -->
00:47:28.800Yes.
00:47:29.039 -->
00:47:30.800Um, it I yeah, you know that.
00:47:30.880 -->
00:47:42.480So it's not just about when you talk about emergence, you know, and this changing your relationship to the rules, like you go from mine to then taking that beating, and and then eventually you learn that sharing is caring.
00:47:42.639 -->
00:47:47.599So that rule of mind becomes a rule of sharing of 50-50.
00:47:48.239 -->
00:47:48.480Yeah.
00:47:48.639 -->
00:47:54.639Uh, because at some point, after all that conflict accumulated, oh my god, I guess I have to share this stuff.
00:47:54.880 -->
00:48:00.320Then you that rule gets modern, you apply some resistance to the rule of mind.
00:48:00.480 -->
00:48:07.840You don't apply the rule of mind to yourself the same way you did when you were a toddler, you apply it differently, to the point that now we call it a different rule.
00:48:08.000 -->
00:48:08.239Yeah.
00:48:08.400 -->
00:48:11.280Um, but it's not it's not just about orientation though.
00:48:11.599 -->
00:48:12.400Go ahead, sorry.
00:48:12.559 -->
00:48:32.639Oh no, just saying, um yeah, you you see this with with people when they're doing well, leaders when they're doing strategy and they they make decisions, hypotheses, and tests, but it it's amazing how how much their options are constrained by the perceived rules that they have.
00:48:34.800 -->
00:48:52.079So they it's almost like there's they can't see certain options because of the own own logic and rules that they've put in place about what what can be done or um could be done uh because of these I'll call them constraints.
00:48:52.159 -->
00:48:55.440They've they've created these perceived constraints in their logic.
00:48:55.760 -->
00:48:56.000Right.
00:48:56.159 -->
00:49:01.280And the problem is not the constraints, the problem that I see is an unawareness of the constraints.
00:49:01.440 -->
00:49:04.880There's this assumption that there are no constraints, which is silly.
00:49:05.039 -->
00:49:08.639How could we operate from an assumption that there are no constraints to our own minds, right?
00:49:08.800 -->
00:49:11.360But we have been doing that somewhat successfully, right?
00:49:11.440 -->
00:49:12.480It got us here.
00:49:12.800 -->
00:49:14.320But I did want to tell you this, Mike.
00:49:14.559 -->
00:49:19.599Everything we've talked about matches to some degree, and I'm so happy to hear from you.
00:49:19.679 -->
00:49:24.320Some a lot of the strategy things that I've been hearing on your show that you've talked about.
00:49:24.639 -->
00:49:34.400But the book does go on, the abstractions papers does go on from the human world to the natural world at large, to the extent it's accessible to us.
00:49:34.639 -->
00:49:42.960And so a lot of these ideas that we've talked about, they're not just about the mind or about the emergence of this or that particular thing, it's about everything.
00:49:43.199 -->
00:49:47.840So um think about a guy sitting on a plane.
00:49:48.079 -->
00:49:49.920So another story.
00:49:50.239 -->
00:49:52.480Um, this one is actually true.
00:49:54.320 -->
00:50:00.960So there's a guy sitting on a plane, there's a kid right behind him kicking the seat.
00:50:01.360 -->
00:50:04.559Every now and then the kid boom kicks the seat in front of him.
00:50:04.880 -->
00:50:07.519Once the guy lets it go, twice, nothing.
00:50:07.840 -->
00:50:15.440By the time the sixth kick comes, the guy is on his feet and he's yelling, I'm a monster.
00:50:16.320 -->
00:50:24.480He's yelling something else, but everybody's looking at him, and then comes the question, where did the incredible cult come from?
00:50:24.800 -->
00:50:26.639He was a calm guy.
00:50:27.039 -->
00:50:29.119Was it the sixth kick?
00:50:30.000 -->
00:50:31.039Was it that one?
00:50:33.760 -->
00:50:46.400It's a communication uh communication of all of it that they you know, he's he's going through this and he's um there's a paradox there, isn't there?
00:50:46.960 -->
00:50:47.760Absolutely.
00:50:48.000 -->
00:50:51.360Yeah, there's a conflict inside because he is bothered by it.
00:50:51.519 -->
00:50:57.599Yeah, so now I'm interpreting, I'm not reading his mind, but let's try to do a reasonable interpretation of it.
00:50:57.920 -->
00:50:59.920He was probably bothered by the first kick.
00:51:00.000 -->
00:51:14.480I could see his expression when he was bothered, but he he looked like he was physically bothered by it, but he didn't do anything, he suppressed something because the some not just one rule, some rules were in conflict inside.
00:51:14.960 -->
00:51:25.920He wants to complain, but he doesn't want to be that guy, so he doesn't, he uh represses, um, and so that accumulates.
00:51:26.079 -->
00:51:27.280Are we still looking at the diagram?
00:51:27.519 -->
00:51:29.360I think we are, so that creates a little yellow.
00:51:29.440 -->
00:51:32.719By the time the sixth comes, you're right, it accumulated.
00:51:32.960 -->
00:51:42.880And now the only solution for him to be at peace is to jump his perspective and change his relationship to the rule that he was applying to suppress himself.
00:51:43.360 -->
00:51:46.159He doesn't know he's doing that, he just blows up.
00:51:46.719 -->
00:52:10.880Um, and so that it's not just about orientation as let's lead a company in a better direction, let's lead the world, and but it's not that, it's just how things are happening in the natural world, period, with the idea that up until now we sort of fail to take into account the inside of things properly, I guess.
00:52:11.119 -->
00:52:16.239Yeah, you know, we do it, we do it like you like you said, he accumulated it inside.
00:52:16.320 -->
00:52:16.960It was accumulation.
00:52:17.199 -->
00:52:23.360You don't need to have this map to kind of know what's going on, but the map helps because you can use this everywhere.
00:52:23.599 -->
00:52:26.559Imagine uh imagine a metal nail.
00:52:26.880 -->
00:52:33.199Now let's go to engineering and you you you twist it to one side, you turn it to one side, then you turn it to the other side.
00:52:33.519 -->
00:52:43.519The nail doesn't break, but you keep doing that turning you do it a thousand times, but a thousand and one times it fractures.
00:52:43.840 -->
00:52:50.719Yeah, was it the thousand and first bend that cracked it?
00:52:50.960 -->
00:52:53.199It was an accumulated call that fatigue, by the way.
00:52:53.280 -->
00:52:54.719It's an understood mechanical thing.
00:52:54.800 -->
00:53:05.039Yeah, we we have that modeled very well, but in natural reality, all that we can say here is that we you know that the natural processes.
00:53:05.519 -->
00:53:10.719I'm not saying that the nail has a mind, that would be silly, but the nail is an engineered happening.
00:53:10.880 -->
00:53:12.400We've built it, yeah.
00:53:12.639 -->
00:53:18.239We built that happening based with on other natural processes that we call atoms, metal.
00:53:18.480 -->
00:53:34.960And and this is so I was saying this is quite an interesting thing when you think about um how how then do people um change perspective or change logic?
00:53:35.599 -->
00:54:03.679Because sometimes then it it needs to be enough uh I it triggered it from your word saying fatigue when I suppose it's communication that uh enough fatigue that someone finally then um has to address it and they will change their perspective or logic rather than sometimes what we we we'd like to try and do is uh is try to get them to change their perspective and logic on the first interaction.
00:54:04.400 -->
00:54:17.599I don't think there's enough communication or or or fatigue for them to do it, and we just assume they would do it if they're presenting with evidence, then they should then change their logical perspective, but I don't think it's that that easy.
00:54:17.760 -->
00:54:26.159Um there has to be something that is accumulated, something that is triggered enough for them to then challenge their own perspective or logic.
00:54:26.960 -->
00:54:28.159Right, right.
00:54:28.480 -->
00:54:34.800And it's tricky because in the world that you're talking about, where you have uh my world is usually one-on-one.
00:54:35.280 -->
00:54:37.920So my strategies are all one-on-one strategies.
00:54:38.079 -->
00:54:44.320I'm either dealing with a small group of inventors, which is effectively one-on-one, or I'm dealing with my wife or my children.
00:54:44.480 -->
00:54:46.400So my world, or I'm talking to you.
00:54:46.639 -->
00:54:52.639My world when you think about it, even when you're dealing with multiple people, it's still multiple one-on-ones.
00:54:53.199 -->
00:54:54.000Yeah, yeah.
00:54:55.360 -->
00:55:04.159And so when you're leading an organization like a company, I think the biggest challenge to somebody coming uh who already finds themselves in that position.
00:55:04.480 -->
00:55:14.719But they're coming from a place that we one of the words for it is naive reality where you haven't considered um some of these ideas.
00:55:14.960 -->
00:55:26.880Yes, then from where you are, the company you're running, um, you may not realize that that we the company itself is a distributed reality.
00:55:27.119 -->
00:55:34.639Like the company you're running is also in the minds of every employee, every customer, every supplier.
00:55:35.599 -->
00:55:39.599It doesn't exist in one place, it's a just totally distributed.
00:55:40.000 -->
00:55:47.599Every every process that can act in relation to your company is acting from its own inside.
00:55:48.000 -->
00:55:50.480And every inside is different, yeah.
00:55:50.639 -->
00:55:57.679Which makes a company environment or any multi-entity environment really interesting.
00:55:58.159 -->
00:56:16.159But if you're managing a company and you haven't really dug into this level of just awareness of nature, um, then you may be making a lot of decisions from a place where you assume without knowing you're assuming that you know where your company is.
00:56:17.199 -->
00:56:17.679Yes.
00:56:17.920 -->
00:56:36.800And I think this is the problem that most have that they they don't do the the you know the understand the the multiple perspectives or don't try to get to that point of a mutual orientation as said earlier.
00:56:37.039 -->
00:56:42.719They just assume because they've assigned a meaning to it, everyone would have the same meaning.
00:56:43.599 -->
00:56:44.079Right.
00:56:44.320 -->
00:56:44.639Right.
00:56:44.800 -->
00:56:46.079Meaning doesn't transfer.
00:56:46.159 -->
00:56:50.559I think that's one thing that um we could go back a couple of diagrams, but I hope that made it clear.
00:56:50.719 -->
00:56:56.159Like the red spaces don't connect through other red spaces, we connect in the blue space.
00:56:57.360 -->
00:57:06.480Um, and so we're you know, in my work, because I also go from this sort of talk to more, I would say, philosophical things.
00:57:06.800 -->
00:57:12.800I one of the expressions I like to to throw out is that we are alone together, we're alone in our red spaces.
00:57:13.039 -->
00:57:16.639Remember when I told you about even the human condition, we're gonna look at on these terms.
00:57:16.800 -->
00:57:22.079We're alone in our red spaces, but we're together, we're one in the world of happening.
00:57:22.159 -->
00:57:28.159Like these actions, the world outside of our minds, yeah, does appear to be shared.
00:57:28.400 -->
00:57:30.159We're and that's how we model it.
00:57:30.480 -->
00:57:33.920Um, and so uh and it does seem to work.
00:57:34.000 -->
00:57:36.000But here's here's one thing I didn't tell you.
00:57:36.239 -->
00:57:37.760I should have told you this at the beginning.
00:57:37.920 -->
00:57:40.559I did not plan for an ending.
00:57:42.480 -->
00:57:43.119Yeah.
00:57:44.480 -->
00:57:46.400You have do you have any questions or anything?
00:57:46.480 -->
00:57:48.239Did you want to talk about anything in particular?
00:57:48.800 -->
00:57:55.440Uh I think it's just a bit of a you know, just a reflection, then I'll probably get you to ask.
00:57:55.519 -->
00:58:00.800Um I'll ask the question about what would you like to leave listeners to think about from this episode?
00:58:01.199 -->
00:58:07.280But I think what what you're pulling at here is a real key um challenge.
00:58:07.360 -->
00:58:21.679And I think it's one of the uh the underestimated challenges in leadership or in strategy, because people talk about the physical thing, like the relationship, the actions that we we have towards one another.
00:58:21.840 -->
00:58:30.400Um strategy being the um the output, the the physical representation of what um we've produced.
00:58:31.440 -->
00:58:57.840But I don't think we uh I don't think people really understand or try to understand the fact that we are alone in this red space and that is uh um that is a challenge but also a great strength because because we have alone in the we we have different interpretations of uh of the blue space, different meaning of the blue space, we all see different elements.
00:58:58.320 -->
00:59:07.920Um so that can give us um uh definite indications of things that I am not uh seeing, that I am not um attracting meaning to.
00:59:08.239 -->
00:59:19.440But it does bring us a challenge because then we I think we're ingrained to communicate in one way, thinking that just because I because just because I've seen it, everybody else will see it.
00:59:19.599 -->
00:59:27.199Just because I've communicated it um the way I have, everyone will understand it the way that I'm meant to, um I meant to communicate it.
00:59:27.519 -->
00:59:36.079And I think that's where it fractures when you realize that actually people are alone in the meaning, then we need to know how to we can best harness that.
00:59:36.159 -->
00:59:47.599So how do we get to that point knowing that we're never going to be a hundred percent aligned, but how do we get to that space of that mutual um mutual meaning?
00:59:48.559 -->
00:59:57.519Absolutely, yeah, just a place of understanding, I guess, and and and and and productivity, I suppose.
00:59:57.599 -->
00:59:59.280You know, just be more a little bit more productive.
00:59:59.519 -->
01:00:00.960I don't know if you're aware of this.
01:00:01.119 -->
01:00:10.320Um, I'm somewhat aware of it, but there are rocks in outer space who could hit this planet someday, destroy everything.
01:00:10.559 -->
01:00:17.840And we're wasting, not wasting, but we're dealing with a lot of issues that really we should be dealing with some other things, you know, too.
01:00:18.159 -->
01:00:19.360Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:19.519 -->
01:00:19.840Yeah.
01:00:20.000 -->
01:00:25.519Um, but you you did ask me, I I thank you for saying um for closing it the way you did.
01:00:25.679 -->
01:00:29.440I completely under, I feel like I understand what you meant.
01:00:29.679 -->
01:00:31.360Yeah, I feel that way.
01:00:31.599 -->
01:00:36.480Um, but you did ask me uh what the what the message is, and I think there are two.
01:00:36.559 -->
01:00:39.119Um if I had to pick one, it would be this one.
01:00:39.920 -->
01:00:43.519Um meaning doesn't transfer between people.
01:00:43.679 -->
01:00:49.440That's like if you start from there, you can make sense of so much just with that one nugget.
01:00:49.599 -->
01:00:58.800I think that's the missing piece to many puzzles, many different puzzles, different kinds of puzzles that we're all building.
01:00:59.920 -->
01:01:03.920If you go look, you're gonna find one missing piece in many of them.
01:01:04.000 -->
01:01:06.880And I think that would complete a lot of puzzles.
01:01:07.039 -->
01:01:08.960It's just the idea that meaning doesn't transfer.
01:01:09.039 -->
01:01:17.440So, how do we learn to account for other worlds of meaning that are taking right there in parallel with ours?
01:01:18.079 -->
01:01:18.719Right?
01:01:19.280 -->
01:01:23.039Um, that would be the one thing is meaning doesn't transfer.
01:01:23.119 -->
01:01:38.400There are other people, I'm always very happy to be on LinkedIn and make contact with other people who come from a completely different place, biology, biology teachers, just all walks of life, but who eventually got to a place in their life, same type of conclusion.
01:01:38.559 -->
01:01:42.239Meaning doesn't transfer between us, like that explains a lot.
01:01:42.480 -->
01:01:43.840Yeah, you know.
01:01:44.159 -->
01:01:45.840Uh so that would be the one message.
01:01:45.920 -->
01:01:54.719And the second message, if that's okay, is yeah, uh, I've I've worked on on this reality project for 10 years, and it has no end in sight.
01:01:54.880 -->
01:02:00.559I think it will continue to work on this stuff in some capacity forever.
01:02:00.880 -->
01:02:06.079There's just a whole box of curiosity opened up, and there's more curiosity in there.
01:02:06.320 -->
01:02:08.079So I'm gonna keep digging.
01:02:08.239 -->
01:02:13.679What I wanted to tell you is reality is something that has been overlooked for a very long time.
01:02:13.840 -->
01:02:26.719It's either treated as either we we go to uh philosophy and we address it that way, or we just choose to believe in science as if the scientific map were the territory, right?
01:02:27.360 -->
01:02:35.360Or but there hasn't been a way for you to kind of like think yourself out of uh of the condition we come in naturally.
01:02:35.519 -->
01:02:49.119There hasn't been a way, but usually when we think about reality, we're thinking about quantum physics, relativity, black holes, or things that are frankly just not gonna be accessible to us, period.
01:02:49.599 -->
01:03:01.280Like for instance, uh if you're looking for meaning outside of your red space, in that diagram I showed you, you're not gonna find it unless it's inside of a different process.
01:03:01.360 -->
01:03:02.880But there's not gonna be meaning out there.
01:03:02.960 -->
01:03:05.039It's kind of like the game of Minecraft.
01:03:05.199 -->
01:03:05.519Yeah, yeah.
01:03:05.760 -->
01:03:08.719You know, you have to create your own meaning here, yeah.
01:03:09.119 -->
01:03:15.599And so uh, but you know, not knowing about quantum physics, I don't know quantum physics.
01:03:15.679 -->
01:03:23.039I wouldn't be able to sit here and have an intelligent discussion about quantum physics, relativity, or any of those weird string theory.
01:03:23.519 -->
01:03:25.199Turns out you don't need any of that.
01:03:25.440 -->
01:03:40.559You need a piece of paper, box of crayons, apparently three colors, and you can think through a lot of this stuff and make a lot better sense of personal life, business life, and so and you know, hopefully more.
01:03:40.719 -->
01:03:41.360I don't know.
01:03:41.599 -->
01:03:42.880Let me ask you a question.
01:03:43.119 -->
01:03:53.440Yeah, if you were uh what's uh what's a good strategy for uh promoting this type of work where the work is free?
01:03:53.599 -->
01:03:55.679I'm asking for a friend.
01:03:57.039 -->
01:04:01.360Promoting this type of work and works for free, the natural reality stuff, yeah.
01:04:01.519 -->
01:04:07.280Because you know, it there's no it's not a commercial enterprise, so how would you go about it?
01:04:08.159 -->
01:04:21.679Um, well, think about it, but I suppose the the idea would be uh the as minimal um barriers as possible and make it accessible as possible.
01:04:21.920 -->
01:04:36.000Um I think that is uh where you need to, but I think it depends, it really depends on the outcome you want, because the outcome you want will dictate the where we need to go.
01:04:36.320 -->
01:04:41.280But um you've you've got all the absorption papers there, and I'll put them in the link.
01:04:41.519 -->
01:04:48.000But I was just gonna I was just I was just gonna assure you that um that um that is the strategy I'm taking so far.
01:04:48.159 -->
01:04:49.119So we'll see how it goes.
01:04:49.199 -->
01:04:50.079I'll share that with you.
01:04:50.400 -->
01:04:55.760Like if you look at the way the the book is today in its current form, the book was published last year.
01:04:56.000 -->
01:05:02.880Um after all the chapters, I do have a chapter manual, frequently asked questions, study materials, and they're pretty comprehensive.
01:05:02.960 -->
01:05:08.400So that's a lot of these ideas you get to work with them yourself, otherwise it's just a lecture, right?
01:05:08.559 -->
01:05:19.599Yeah, but this this is the thing with um boys' work, like boys' work and like your work, I think is is fundamental for leaders to understand to think about.
01:05:20.320 -->
01:05:28.719But even though boys' work was was accessible, um it was misinterpreted.
01:05:28.800 -->
01:05:32.159The meaning, a lot of it was misinterpreted to what is actually there for.
01:05:32.239 -->
01:05:38.559So people confuse uh um boys' work with being fast, just be fast thinking, it's not even anything like that.
01:05:38.800 -->
01:05:45.840And I think that would be the challenge yours is uh is where will people misinterpret what what your work is?
01:05:46.159 -->
01:05:47.920How can you make that clear?
01:05:48.320 -->
01:05:50.880But and it's where where do you want it to be?
01:05:51.199 -->
01:05:59.760And that's the thing if if you want it to be um at school age, then it's how do we get it into the to uh to children, how do you make it?
01:06:00.079 -->
01:06:00.880Expressible that way.
01:06:00.960 -->
01:06:10.719If it's about um you know future leaders, then where's the source in which they will need to have interaction with it and and make it there?
01:06:10.880 -->
01:06:11.519Yeah.
01:06:11.840 -->
01:06:17.280So there's loads of it all depends on what what's the outcome you're trying to achieve.
01:06:17.599 -->
01:06:18.000Right.
01:06:18.239 -->
01:06:19.840So for it should start there.
01:06:19.920 -->
01:06:21.679Maybe I haven't started from an outcome.
01:06:21.760 -->
01:06:23.199That's the interesting thing about this project.
01:06:23.280 -->
01:06:27.039Like the outcome is like you build the story and then the story builds you, kind of thing.
01:06:27.199 -->
01:06:38.559Yeah, well, I I sort of guided against my own thing here because I always say about um we always have an outcome, ideally what we want, but we we always start from your dispositional state.
01:06:38.719 -->
01:06:43.760So we're from where you where you're positioned now, what are your options?
01:06:44.320 -->
01:06:48.559And then what are those options that you could what's afforded to you that you could take?
01:06:48.800 -->
01:06:53.519And then the other thing is I've written in my book, it's called about um it's called shaping.
01:06:53.679 -->
01:06:59.199So how do we shape the um uh the terrain to your advantage?
01:06:59.760 -->
01:07:17.679So thinking about the first part is enable, which is how do we uh where do I need to be or position myself, or what groups or what voice voices do I need to get to build those relationships so I then can start influencing those things.
01:07:18.159 -->
01:07:24.000Um you you have um constraints, so how do I constrain things?
01:07:24.079 -->
01:07:28.559So there's there's different things that you can do to think about how do you shape it to your advantage.
01:07:28.719 -->
01:07:30.320So there's definitely those things.
01:07:30.400 -->
01:07:40.239The first one is uh obviously enable how do I need how do I get into those spaces where it's gonna have influential to build those relationships, um, and then you can go on from there.
01:07:40.559 -->
01:07:43.119And that's perfect for the end of this because I wanted to thank you.
01:07:43.199 -->
01:07:44.880Thank you so much for having me on the show.
01:07:45.039 -->
01:07:47.039I'm definitely taking the shotgun approach.
01:07:47.119 -->
01:07:52.079You know, I I did this project for my own kids, uh, which probably explains why it's free.
01:07:52.159 -->
01:07:53.280So it's for the kids.
01:07:53.440 -->
01:07:58.079Um, and uh the project nowadays has books, uh, podcasts, things.
01:07:58.159 -->
01:08:00.320So thank you for inviting me on this kids' stories.
01:08:01.119 -->
01:08:02.400It really is a shotgun approach.
01:08:02.559 -->
01:08:04.000Try to get some of this idea out.
01:08:04.239 -->
01:08:04.480Yeah.
01:08:04.719 -->
01:08:21.520Um we'll see what maybe we maybe we can have a proper sit-down and I'll repay you the favor for um you being of a great guest on my show, and we can sit down and think about um how how you could get this um further out there as a strategy.
01:08:21.760 -->
01:08:23.199But oh, that would be awesome.
01:08:23.279 -->
01:08:24.880Where are you in the world, by the way?
01:08:25.119 -->
01:08:28.560I'm uh in Milk Keynes in uh England.
01:08:29.279 -->
01:08:30.880Where about America are you?
01:08:31.600 -->
01:08:35.119I'm in Washington State, outside of Portland.
01:08:35.439 -->
01:08:36.479Yes, yeah, yeah.
01:08:37.680 -->
01:08:44.079I live between between here and Texas, so I'm always I have kids in Texas, but I also live here, so oh right, yeah.
01:08:44.239 -->
01:08:52.960Um I complain, I've got to jump in the car now to um go pick my children up in Norfolk, and that's only uh what an hour and a half drive.
01:08:53.039 -->
01:08:55.840So I couldn't imagine what it's like from Washington State to Texas.
01:08:56.000 -->
01:08:59.840That's probably about wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:59.920 -->
01:09:05.600We but you know, now with FaceTime and stuff, we we do get to talk and see each other like a lot.
01:09:06.000 -->
01:09:07.920I wouldn't say it's the same, it's not the same.
01:09:08.159 -->
01:09:11.439No, but you know, yeah, but it's pretty good.
01:09:11.760 -->
01:09:13.279So let's let's stay in touch.
01:09:13.359 -->
01:09:17.039And for the listeners, I hope you've enjoyed this um episode.
01:09:17.119 -->
01:09:27.039I have, I found it absolutely fascinating, and it just gets me wanting to every time I read the abstraction that's a parts of um I always find something new.
01:09:27.119 -->
01:09:41.760It's one of those things where you it's you can't just read it once, and it's not and I say that not in a term that it's not accessible in that way, it's just there's so much depth to it, but I think you learn every time that you go and something else triggers.
01:09:41.920 -->
01:09:50.399So it's one of those it's one of those things that you can just keep coming back to, and every time you come back to it, you you you learn something new, and I think it's fascinating that way.
01:09:50.479 -->
01:09:53.680So thank you for producing it, thank you for making it available.
01:09:53.760 -->
01:10:09.920And I'll put it into the the comments and the shows, but for the listeners, please like, share, um, so that people can I can learn more from Louise and this great um idea and work that he's putting forward.
01:10:10.079 -->
01:10:10.560So thank you.
01:10:10.800 -->
01:10:11.439Thank you, Mike.
01:10:11.520 -->
01:10:12.399Thank you very much.
01:10:12.640 -->
01:10:13.199Thank you.
01:10:13.359 -->
01:10:13.920Thank you.
01:10:14.239 -->
01:10:15.119Awesome.
01:10:16.560 -->
01:10:17.439See you again soon.
01:10:18.560 -->
01:10:19.279Thank you, Mike.
