WEBVTT
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Hey, writers.
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Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
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I'm Emily.
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And I'm Rachel.
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And today we are going to talk about your characters making mistakes.
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Please, please let them make mistakes.
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I wrote, you know it's serious when I start singing.
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I know.
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Yeah. We've got a fun call in response.
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I wrote today's episode title as a joke, and we decided to leave it because we felt so passionate about.
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About this.
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I feel like you are especially.
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I mean, obviously we're equally passionate about this, but you've spoken about this with this kind of passion.
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I feel like in emails and just like.
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Cause it's.
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I just love your passion about it because it's so important.
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I'm so passionate.
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I'm passionate about all things writing.
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I'm extra passionate about.
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If you have a perfect character who makes no mistakes, they are boring, period.
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They're so boring.
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They're so boring.
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Let me put.
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That's the end.
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Let me put an asterisk here.
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If you're talking about a style static arc and you know what you're doing, that's different.
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Static arcs are different.
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But I will not accept the excuse that you're writing a static arc book just because your characters are perfect and they make no mistakes.
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They're different.
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So there are books that have static arc characters in which the character knows the lesson and they're trying to change the world around them.
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That is one situation.
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Then you have a character who doesn't know anything.
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They're flawed.
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You think they're perfect, but they don't do anything.
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They don't make mistakes.
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They don't make any choices and nothing ever happens.
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And I hate them.
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No, I'm just kidding.
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And it falls flat.
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There's a difference.
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So the asterisks, which I will not talk about again for the rest of this episode because it's different, is a static arc.
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We have episode on static arc.
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Static arc.
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We did with Lewis.
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Joyce said, it's amazing.
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Go look at it.
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But that is a completely different narrative structure that you choose intentionally because of the message that you're trying to say and the journey of the story and the way that the world changes, not your character.
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And 95% of you that are listening to this aren't writing that.
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So I don't want to hear it.
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I don't want to hear.
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Well, go listen to that episode because I love you.
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I just.
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I'm not being like.
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I'm not.
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This is all tongue in cheek.
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We're just being sassy, you guys.
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I'm just being sassy.
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I'm just being sassy.
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It's okay.
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But I do get.
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I do feel like I get that a lot of, like, well, my character, I'm writing a static arc, and I'm like, you heard that once and you latched onto it, and it wasn't on purpose.
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It was because it was an excuse because you didn't know how to fix the book that you wanted to dealt.
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You didn't know how to bring the vision to life that you wanted.
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So I think there's a difference, and I will hop off my high horse and stop complaining about it.
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Well, I think that's a. That's a very important distinction.
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Because the other thing about static arcs is just because their main character in a static arc is not making the same kinds of choices that a character in a positive arc would or negative arc would be, but the world around them is.
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And there are mistakes that are being made, big ones, and they have huge consequences.
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And there's change happening.
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It's just a different structure.
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So, okay, we won't put that aside.
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That aside.
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And like, even in a. Even in a static arc now, I'm going to keep going.
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Even in a static arc, the main character seems.
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Still makes mistakes, but it's not because they don't know the lesson.
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It's because of a different reason.
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So, like, there.
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There is structure to static arc.
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If you're not writing that on purpose with intention to tell a message about the world, then put that aside.
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This is not for you.
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This is for.
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This episode is for, like, this.
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This was.
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This was me.
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This was me like eight, seven, eight years ago when I was writing a character who I really wanted to be flawed, but I didn't know how to make her flawed.
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So she ended up just doing fine things all the time.
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And she never leaned into her flaws in a way that made sense.
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She never made mistakes on the page.
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So there were never consequences for those mistakes.
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I think what we don't set out with the intention to write perfect characters, what ends up happening is that you go easy on them.
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You let them get by with, like, making fine choices.
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And that's not the.
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That's not the crux of a character arc.
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That's not the purpose of story.
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Narrative narrative storytelling is set up to make your characters do dumb shit because they're flawed.
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And then the consequences show them that they were wrong.
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So you need to make it hard, make it hard on them.
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I think we get really we love our characters.
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I don't want to get them hurt.
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I don't want them.
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I don't.
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I don't want them to be making, you know, dumb choices because, you know, they're a reflection of me and they're part of me.
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And if I make dumb choices, then what does that say about me?
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No, stop it.
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See, I told you she got passionate about this.
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I was like, stop this.
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Just look.
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The very first client.
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The very first one on one client that I ever had.
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I love her to death.
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We started this.
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We started this narrative.
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You have to like her and I, we would.
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We would chant this at each other, like, crush, crush, crush, crush.
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Like, you have to crush your characters.
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You need to make it hard and make them make bad choices, flawed choices, dumb choices.
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I don't know what.
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I don't care what you want to call it, but make them make mistakes.
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For the love of God, please make mistakes.
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Because that's how they learn.
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And, like, as a reader, I am, like, locked in when I see a character doing things that I know are not gonna work out for them because it's like.
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It's the conflict.
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It's the idea of conflict sucks us in.
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We wanna watch the train wreck happen.
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I wanna see it unfold.
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And if there's no train wreck, I move on.
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I'm bored.
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I put the book down.
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Put the book down.
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Yeah. We have to see.
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A lot of this goes back into water.
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I knew that would happen.
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A lot of this goes back to what we talked about in a couple episodes ago with narrative drive.
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Right.
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Which is that your character needs to be shaping the story.
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And if it's an.
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If you have a character arc, which you should, then that means that the choices that your character's making are going to be wrong for 80% of the book.
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They're gonna be mistakes.
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Every single choice is gonna be a mistake.
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And that feels like, I think, a lot of pressure for writers to be, like, every single scene.
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Yes, every single scene.
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Because.
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And that comes down to, like, their plans, their overall plans for what they're doing are wrong.
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And so even if it doesn't feel like their choices in the moment are, like, gonna have huge consequences, it's the concept of the fact that they're following this big plan.
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And if you have them following this big plan in every single scene and stay sticking to that big, flawed plan in every single scene, then those mistakes are gonna accumulate.
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Right?
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And so.
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And that's very important, like Rachel said, for teaching them and teaching them why they were wrong.
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How they are flawed and allowing them to change.
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If they're not making mistakes, they have no reason to change.
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Right.
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If the choices that they're making don't have flawed consequences, then they're not flawed choices.
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Exactly. Yeah. And like, we.
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I think we may have mentioned this on the podcast, but you and I have talked before.
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I think the accumulation of consequences is really important because we hear, like, the struggle from writers that we teach.
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We hear the struggle that it is really hard to make a character make a flawed choice in every single scene and have that character remain likable.
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I hear you.
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It's a challenge.
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But what's the important part is that even if they're making a flawed choice, it might be two steps forward, one step back.
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Right.
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Like, it's the consequences that force us the steps back.
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So even if they're.
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They're not doing the right thing, we may look like we're on the up and up.
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Things might be.
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Might be working out temporarily, but the whole point is that their flawed choices have consequences which accumulate and snowball and result in bad things, because it's the bad consequences that show us that we've been doing wrong, that we've been making wrong choices.
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So I'm going to give you some leeway that even as you're writing, if you're like, well, I need there to be a win, otherwise the plot is too depressing, cool, let there be a win.
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But the whole point of the character arc is that we cannot outrun the negative consequences of our flawed choices.
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So they pile up.
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We're not doing it right.
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So if we need to have a win, like, books will have ups and downs.
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We have wins, we have losses, but the losses are greater, right?
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Like, the bad choices have bigger consequences, and it accumulates until we can't look away anymore and we realize, oh, that might not have turned out as bad as it could have in perhaps that one situation, but it was still wrong.
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Or, oh, I'm only here because of this pattern that I have of mistrust or this pattern of flawed thinking, whatever it is, that we hit the rock bottom because of the flaws.
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And if you don't let the characters make mistakes, they have no rock bottom.
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So stop treating them so precious.
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Yeah, I'm getting heated again.
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Well, so.
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So sometimes what people.
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Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
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Nope, nope.
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Sometimes people will say, well, you know, on.
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On this note of.
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Of victories, right?
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Giving them wins, they'll be like, well, they're succeeding in what they want or what they think they want, right?
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Like they set out a goal to beat the love interest at getting the business deal.
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Right.
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And they're getting closer to the business deal.
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Right.
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That feels like a win to the character.
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Right.
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They are getting what they think they want, but what they actually want in that, you know, very basic premise, right, is love.
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Like what they actually need is love.
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They think they want this business deal, but really what they need is love.
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And so it's actually a loss, Right.
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Every time they get closer to that business deal, they are, there are long term negative consequences because they are pushing love away.
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Exactly.
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And so even if it feels like a win, it can actually be a loss because it's not actually what your character wants.
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It's pushing them further from their deeper desires, even if they think they're getting closer to their conscious desires.
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So just, I get a lot of pushback there sometimes from folks and that's, that's fine.
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And then the other thing that people will say is, well, my character, is it okay if they make the right quote unquote choice for the wrong quote unquote reasons?
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So it's a mistake, but like they're doing the right thing in the scene.
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And I think that all comes down to consequences, right?
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What are the actual tangible consequences in their relationships with other people in what's going to happen in the plot because of the choices that they're making in that moment?
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If the long term consequences are negative, then that's fine.
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Then it can be the right choice for the wrong reasons.
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Right?
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But if it's the right choice, quote unquote, and positive things happen because of it, then it's not, you know, it's not the right choice, right.
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For that scene.
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You have to rethink it.
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Because if they're making the right quote unquote choice in that moment, that will have positive consequences.
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That implies that they have learned your story point.
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That implies that they know that they've let go of their flawed beliefs.
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And if it's not time to do that, it's not time to do that.
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And so you got to rethink things.
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And that's getting a little in the nuance.
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But for people who, like, understand some of these terms and are like in the weeds and struggling with that in a scene, I think looking at the consequences can be really helpful.
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Will they be negative or will they be positive in the long run?
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That's something that I've, that I personally have really struggled with in the Shadows Syndicate series that I'm writing because of the amount of characters that I have that are all interacting with the plot in slightly different ways, and they all kind of have slightly different goals.
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Like, there are times where I need a choice to be made that pushes our plot forward, but that there's a consequence that comes back later where that character was like, well, shit, that I hurt someone around me by doing that.
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I felt like it was the right thing for my goals, but I hurt someone, and now I have to deal with that conflict.
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That's. Then. This is tricky.
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I think this is.
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I mean, letting your characters make mistakes influences the plot going back to narrative drive.
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And the more details and intricacies that you insert into the plot, the harder it is to link all this together.
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It's hard.
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I'm not.
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I'm not.
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Yeah.
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And I'm going to be the first to say I.
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Here's my confession for the day.
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I will flex the numbers a little bit in my books to, like, make it make sense, but the arc is always still top of mind.
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So even if I have a scene where I'm like, this character is going to slip by, but the consequence is going to come back to bite us later, because otherwise they won't change.
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They are not going to see.
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They are not going to see, like, the whole.
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The. The way that they've been wrong unless we have a consequence.
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Yeah. And that takes time and refinement.
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I mean, look, as as heated as I was earlier, guys, please know that all of my heat is.
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Is like, you still.
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This is a revisions thing, okay?
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Yes,
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Literally.
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I wrote an email about this to our email list because I was like, whatever time you hear writing advice, it's a revision thing, okay?
00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:28.180
Don't worry about it.
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When you're drafting, all of the advice we give is, like, put it in practice over time.
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You're not doing anything wrong.
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You're not trash.
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Your book's not trash.
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Don't worry about it.
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It's okay.
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We don't hate it.
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I don't hate you.
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I love you.
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I'm so glad you're here.
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Thank you for listening.
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I support you and your dreams.
00:17:48.430 --> 00:17:49.230
I've got your back.
00:17:49.470 --> 00:17:50.670
I'm not mad at you.
00:17:50.829 --> 00:17:52.269
I'm mad at the situation.
00:17:53.470 --> 00:18:04.990
But no, like, this is something that comes over time with multiple drafts, with revisions, with understanding how narrative drive works, with, like, changing plot structure.
00:18:04.990 --> 00:18:05.710
Like, it.
00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:06.269
It's.
00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:09.950
It comes with practice and time and drafts.
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:11.950
So I'm not.
00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:13.069
Take a. This one.
00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:19.250
In the narrative dive episodes, you know, we get excited and heated about it because I think these are two things.
00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:24.210
You know, not having Narrative drive and not having letting characters make mistakes that people.
00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:31.809
That is so common for newer writers to do, and it's so common for newer writers to be like, I don't have this issue.
00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:32.369
Right.
00:18:32.369 --> 00:18:34.490
And we get a lot of pushback on these things.
00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:46.289
And so I think that's where the intensity is coming from, is us being, like, trying to break through those walls because these are so important, and we know how important they are, and we want people to understand that and that there's nothing wrong with you or your book if you don't have these things.
00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:46.569
But.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:53.200
But, like, recognizing that they are something that you need to revise into your story in order to make them engaging is very, very important.
00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:59.680
And the writers that acknowledge that and kind of come at it with the humility of, like, let's figure out how to do this.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.119
I think succeed.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.160
Like, those are the people we see succeed a lot and really well.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:11.680
And so that is all coming from a place of love and a place of experience that we know a lot of people will say these things.
00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:13.849
Yes. Very beautifully said.
00:19:13.849 --> 00:19:14.490
Because the.
00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:22.250
The pushback that we get, we can always tell it comes from a place of resistance that you do not want to see the holes in your book.
00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:23.490
And so you come.
00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:24.289
This is, like, going back.
00:19:24.289 --> 00:19:25.650
I feel like a reflection of you.
00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:26.410
It's a shame thing.
00:19:26.410 --> 00:19:26.890
Exactly.
00:19:27.129 --> 00:19:28.250
It's a shame thing.
00:19:28.650 --> 00:19:30.089
It's an identity thing.
00:19:30.490 --> 00:19:31.890
It's a validation thing.
00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:37.049
If. If I have a mistake in my book that I have to go back and rewrite everything, I have failed.
00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:38.129
No, that's not true.
00:19:38.129 --> 00:19:39.529
We all go back and rewrite everything.
00:19:39.529 --> 00:19:40.410
Everybody does it.
00:19:40.789 --> 00:19:41.750
That's part of the process.
00:19:42.150 --> 00:19:48.390
But when we get the pushback, it's more like I'm trying to come up with an answer for the draft I already have.
00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:49.430
That makes sense.
00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:54.470
Versus I recognize that this draft needs more mistakes.
00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:58.309
Or I recognize that this character arc is not quite hitting.
00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:01.670
It's missing something, or the consequences aren't there.
00:20:01.750 --> 00:20:03.430
I should amp those up a little bit.
00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:05.029
Maybe I should change the plot.
00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:05.830
Like, that's.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:06.799
That's the difference.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.240
So I guess you're completely right.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.680
Like, the heat that I have comes from number one, how.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.519
How important I think this is for books in general.
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.120
Like, this is foundational character knowledge that is really important for character arcs.
00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:25.360
So when it's not there, you see the ripple effects throughout the rest of the story, where the plot.
00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:26.920
There's something lacking in the plot.
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:28.600
The narrative drive has holes in it.
00:20:28.600 --> 00:20:30.240
Our pacing isn't working right.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.480
We're not getting payoff in Act 3.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.990
So, like, the ripple effects of not letting your characters make mistakes go through the entire novel.
00:20:38.150 --> 00:20:39.029
So it's really important.
00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:45.230
And then on the flip side, don't let your resistance, like, get in the way of.
00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:51.670
Or your perfectionism or your fear of failure or your imposter syndrome or whatever it is on in Mindset wise.
00:20:52.150 --> 00:21:01.470
Don't let it get in the way of, like, I could probably amp this up a bit or this needs more work, or I want to take the vision in this direction now.
00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:05.500
If you have a vision for your story and you're behind that vision, I don't care.
00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:06.259
Do what you want.
00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:11.860
I'm always gonna be way more happy for you doing that if that's the vision for your story.
00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:17.860
But no, this is also where it comes in of, like, you have to know the rule to break the rule.
00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:22.140
If you don't know the theory, you're not gonna break it with purpose.
00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:23.460
You're just missing the theory.
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.059
And I think that's different.
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:26.620
I don't care if you.
00:21:26.620 --> 00:21:29.539
If you know the rule and break the rule, do whatever you want.
00:21:30.350 --> 00:21:37.230
But when people don't know the rule, that's when they get really frustrated with their drafts and they're like, I don't understand why this doesn't work.
00:21:37.789 --> 00:21:39.069
I don't understand why.
00:21:39.069 --> 00:21:41.390
I feel like something's missing.
00:21:42.269 --> 00:21:43.549
Yeah, okay, that's.
00:21:44.350 --> 00:21:44.990
I gotta.
00:21:44.990 --> 00:21:46.830
I'm hopping off the soapbox again.
00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:48.750
You can take my place.
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:55.390
So the only thing I. Other thing I want to add with this is I think this applies to secondary characters as well.
00:21:56.100 --> 00:21:57.059
Um, yeah, yeah.
00:21:57.059 --> 00:22:04.819
And I. Speaking from experience, my first series that I worked on had, like, a massive cast, and I just.
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:16.420
I didn't have the craft knowledge to like, make them all really human in the way that if I ever go back to that project, that I would want to make it, like, gritty and human and make them all flawed.
00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:17.940
Like, everybody was just like, a little bit.
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:28.210
They were all quirky, they all had different quirks, they were different from each other, but they were all essentially good people except for the villains, you know, and then the villains were bad people.
00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:29.769
And again, this is a revisions thing.
00:22:29.769 --> 00:22:30.210
If you.
00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:45.330
You know, I write very cardboard characters into my first drafts, but it's very important to make sure that your cast as a whole feels human as you are revising and bringing depth to your story.
00:22:45.490 --> 00:22:46.850
Because readers.
00:22:47.330 --> 00:22:52.210
Readers are just not going to be as interested in a cast that is, like, predictably good all the time.
00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:52.580
Right.
00:22:52.580 --> 00:22:55.860
Like, we want to be slightly afraid of people of some of the characters.
00:22:55.860 --> 00:22:58.819
We want to be slightly confused about the motives of other characters.
00:22:58.819 --> 00:22:59.620
We want them to.
00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:00.740
We want to, like.
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:05.059
Want to love someone, but they keep making mistakes that we can't forgive.
00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:05.380
Right.
00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:09.220
We want to have that complexity, and that comes from allowing your characters to be human.
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:11.940
And to allow them to be human, you have to allow them to make.
00:23:12.100 --> 00:23:12.900
Make mistakes.
00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:14.220
So this doesn't apply.
00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:15.940
It doesn't just apply to your main character.
00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:19.250
It also applies to everybody else in your story, including your villains.
00:23:19.330 --> 00:23:21.930
They're going to make the biggest mistakes, but they still have to be human.
00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:24.170
They can't just be villains for villains sake.
00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:25.730
And we have episodes about that.
00:23:26.049 --> 00:23:27.250
But I just think.
00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:28.610
I just want to kind of put that.
00:23:28.610 --> 00:23:30.049
That note in here that this is.
00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:31.009
This is about your whole.
00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:31.650
Whole cast.
00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:39.529
We want our readers to come into a story and see people who are human and human people make mistakes.
00:23:39.529 --> 00:23:40.289
We're flawed.
00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:41.170
Let's.
00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:53.120
Okay, so before we wrap up, I want to touch on the point you've just made, because I also think some of the pushback we get about this is the question of likability.
00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:54.519
Yeah.
00:23:54.519 --> 00:24:01.440
So people fearing that if they make their characters make mistakes, they will no longer be likable.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:11.720
So what you just said was that, like humans, it's so natural for people to make mistakes.
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:13.160
Every human does it.
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.960
And we don't have that.
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:18.039
Like, we don't end up having that reaction.
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:25.559
I think that's an unfounded myth about 90% of the time that if your characters make mistakes, that means they're unlikable.
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:32.600
Now, I know we talked about this on the podcast before, how this was something that you struggled with a little bit with fear in.
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:33.279
Yeah.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.569
Do you want to touch on the likability and the mistakes question?
00:24:36.809 --> 00:24:38.090
No, That's a really good point.
00:24:38.330 --> 00:24:39.610
Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:24:39.610 --> 00:24:47.610
A lot of times the pushback is like, we love our characters so much, we don't want to let them do anything that might make readers angry with them.
00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:48.009
Right.
00:24:48.009 --> 00:24:48.410
Yes.
00:24:48.970 --> 00:24:49.769
And I think.
00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:58.970
I mean, I would push back and say that I think sometimes the characters we love the most are the ones who have flaws, that we're like, oh, baby, just heal.
00:24:59.049 --> 00:25:01.210
If you just heal, you can have happiness.
00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:01.650
Right.
00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:05.289
Like those sad characters who just can't help themselves.
00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:09.529
And there's something that's deeply likable about them, but they're still making mistakes.
00:25:09.529 --> 00:25:11.289
That makes us love them even more, I think.
00:25:12.330 --> 00:25:16.650
But in terms of, you know, if you have a character who is truly morally gray.
00:25:16.650 --> 00:25:16.930
Right.
00:25:16.930 --> 00:25:20.930
Who makes really big mistakes and you're asking the reader to empathize with them, right?
00:25:20.930 --> 00:25:23.210
Because they're your main character, like Feren.
00:25:24.009 --> 00:25:29.210
Then you want to make sure that it's very, very clear to the reader why they are the way they are.
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:32.289
This is one of the big reasons that I included Fearen's backstory.
00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:35.769
Like, have an actual dual timeline where we get to see her as a.
00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:43.630
So that we understand why she is the way that she is, and we get to see that and live through that, and, like, understand how she changed over time.
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:45.230
That was one of the reasons that I included that.
00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:47.269
It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons.
00:25:47.750 --> 00:26:00.710
And I think that the more that you can just show your readers why your character wants what they want, why they believe the flawed things that they believe, why they have the fears, the unfounded fears that they have.
00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:00.950
Right.
00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:02.150
Founded and unfounded.
00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:05.660
Um, and all of that lives in their backstory, right?
00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:11.539
It lives in, like, why they are the way that they are and the things that have happened to them, the people that have hurt them, the things they've learned over time.
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:12.900
And so to.
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:13.860
To make an.
00:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.860
A character who is, you know, makes bad decision, really bad decisions.
00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:22.340
And, like, not all mistakes are, like, make you Evil, Right, Exactly.
00:26:22.580 --> 00:26:23.539
Make mistakes.
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:27.940
Like in the example of, like, trying to get the business deal at the expense of love, right?
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:28.809
Like, that.
00:26:28.809 --> 00:26:31.130
That person's not necessarily an evil person.
00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:31.809
It just.
00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:32.490
They just have.
00:26:32.569 --> 00:26:35.210
Their priorities are a little, like, messed up, right.
00:26:35.210 --> 00:26:36.490
Because of their flawed beliefs.
00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:38.569
And so.
00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:40.049
But if you do have a character who.
00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:43.690
Who makes truly bad decisions, right, they hurt people, like, fear and hurts people.
00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:49.610
It needs to be abundantly clear to the reader why they're doing that so that we can root for them to change.
00:26:50.090 --> 00:26:56.850
It's like, we're going to be partly engaged because we want to see the train wreck, and we're partly engaged because we want to see them overcome that.
00:26:56.850 --> 00:27:01.110
Those demons and, like, become a healed version of themselves and get the things that.
00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:02.309
That they truly want.
00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:02.670
Right?
00:27:02.670 --> 00:27:03.590
Like, for her, it's love.
00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:04.870
It's like, we want her to find love.
00:27:04.870 --> 00:27:05.750
We need you to change.
00:27:05.830 --> 00:27:06.990
You can find love, right?
00:27:06.990 --> 00:27:09.670
And that keeps people moving, reading and flipping pages.
00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:14.789
But if you didn't understand why Faerien is the way that she is, you would just hate her and you would put the book down.
00:27:15.029 --> 00:27:15.950
So that's how you.
00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:22.150
That's how empathy is built, is like showing the humanity of a character to the reader so we can understand why they are the way they are.
00:27:22.630 --> 00:27:24.069
Exactly. Backstory.
00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:25.830
Why do they have their flaws.
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:26.940
Where.
00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.420
Where do these flaws come from?
00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:33.779
Why are they driven by these flaws?
00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:34.259
Because that answers, why are we making these mistakes?
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:38.980
And if we can understand why these mistakes were made, we can empathize with it.
00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:44.819
And if we can empathize with it, we give a lot of grace to these characters that make a lot of mistakes.
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:47.220
Because, like, it could be us, right?
00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:49.460
Like, you know, if we have the.
00:27:49.620 --> 00:27:55.230
If we see that that happened to this character, what if that happened to us?
00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:55.230
Okay, I can see how they got there.
00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:56.590
That's always my question.
00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.430
Can I see how this character got to this point?
00:28:00.590 --> 00:28:04.069
And if the answer is yes, I'm like, make your mistakes.
00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:04.830
Flawed person.
00:28:04.990 --> 00:28:08.269
Go, yeah, I will follow you, and I will see, did you change or not?
00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:10.350
Because that's the question is I. I'm.
00:28:10.350 --> 00:28:13.710
We are, as readers, we are compelled by the question, will they change or not?
00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:17.789
We're not turned off by the question of this person is flawed.
00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.789
But unless we don't know why.
00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:20.690
Exactly.
00:28:20.690 --> 00:28:21.769
Unless we don't know why.
00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:24.009
If we don't know why, then we're like, you're dumb.
00:28:24.650 --> 00:28:25.529
You're dumb.
00:28:25.850 --> 00:28:29.330
Why are you doing this?
00:28:25.850 --> 00:28:30.009
But if we know why, then we're like, oh, you poor baby.
00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:31.370
Of course you're this way.
00:28:32.090 --> 00:28:35.049
And then we're like, I can't stand to see you this way.
00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:37.529
I really want you to find happiness and love.
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:39.049
Oh, you deserve it.
00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:40.250
You've just been hurt before.
00:28:40.569 --> 00:28:43.610
Like, that's the kind of emotion.
00:28:44.330 --> 00:28:49.789
Yeah. That's the vibe that is what we are trying to evoke in our reader.
00:28:49.870 --> 00:28:54.069
So it's not the mistakes that turn the character off or that turn the reader off.
00:28:54.069 --> 00:28:57.950
It's not understanding why we make those mistakes.
00:28:58.190 --> 00:29:04.590
So that's part of making this clear on the page through internal processing, through the use of backstory, through showing, not telling.
00:29:04.910 --> 00:29:16.799
Like, when we can make that clear through those techniques, the reader's gonna be chugging along with us, no matter what happens, and waiting to see, you know, how does this turn out?
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.799
I can't wait to find out.
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.480
Do we get what we want?
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.480
Do we change?
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.720
Or do we fail and not get what we want?
00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:27.319
So please, please, please, please, for the love of God, please, just let them.
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.160
This is your mistakes.
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:29.440
Just let them make mistakes.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.400
This is your permission.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.480
Make them suffer.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.840
I love that when my.
00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:38.680
When my readers are in my Instagram DMs, and they're like, oh, you made your character suffer.
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:39.120
I'm like.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:45.360
Like, I send, like, the little purple devil emoji, and I'm like, yeah, yesterday one of my.
00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:48.400
Okay, so my pen name is R E May.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.440
So yesterday one of my readers was in my DMs calling me Rachel Evil May.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:54.960
And I was like, that's it.
00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:55.920
That's.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.000
That's my middle name.
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:57.920
Don't wear it out.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:00.400
They love it.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:01.799
Readers truly love it.
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:02.799
So, like, lean in.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:03.840
This is your permission.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.120
Make them suffer.
00:30:05.120 --> 00:30:05.880
It's okay.
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:06.640
And I'm not.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.720
You don't have to, like, you know, physical suffer, emotional suffer.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:11.779
I want to feel the angst.
00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:13.850
I want to see the struggle.
00:30:14.090 --> 00:30:16.490
It's that struggle that, like, really draws us in.
00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:19.690
Okay, I'm done, you guys.
00:30:21.130 --> 00:30:26.490
If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:30.170
Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:34.490
After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
00:30:34.890 --> 00:30:35.930
Link in the show notes.
00:30:35.930 --> 00:30:36.730
We'll see you there.
00:30:37.370 --> 00:30:37.930
Bye.
00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:39.390
It.
00:03:11.229 --> 00:03:11.829
Hey, writers.
00:03:11.829 --> 00:03:15.629
Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
00:03:15.789 --> 00:03:16.589
I'm Emily.
00:03:16.909 --> 00:03:17.949
And I'm Rachel.
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And today we are going to talk about your characters making mistakes.
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Please, please let them make mistakes.
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I wrote, you know it's serious when I start singing.
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I know.
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Yeah. We've got a fun call in response.
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I wrote today's episode title as a joke, and we decided to leave it because we felt so passionate about.
00:03:43.279 --> 00:03:43.839
About this.
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I feel like you are especially.
00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:50.679
I mean, obviously we're equally passionate about this, but you've spoken about this with this kind of passion.
00:03:50.679 --> 00:03:54.819
I feel like in emails and just like.
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Cause it's.
00:03:56.659 --> 00:03:58.579
I just love your passion about it because it's so important.
00:03:58.579 --> 00:03:59.459
I'm so passionate.
00:03:59.620 --> 00:04:01.299
I'm passionate about all things writing.
00:04:01.299 --> 00:04:03.219
I'm extra passionate about.
00:04:05.299 --> 00:04:10.699
If you have a perfect character who makes no mistakes, they are boring, period.
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They're so boring.
00:04:11.539 --> 00:04:12.339
They're so boring.
00:04:13.859 --> 00:04:14.459
Let me put.
00:04:14.459 --> 00:04:15.219
That's the end.
00:04:15.219 --> 00:04:16.659
Let me put an asterisk here.
00:04:17.620 --> 00:04:24.360
If you're talking about a style static arc and you know what you're doing, that's different.
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Static arcs are different.
00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:35.560
But I will not accept the excuse that you're writing a static arc book just because your characters are perfect and they make no mistakes.
00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:36.120
They're different.
00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:47.860
So there are books that have static arc characters in which the character knows the lesson and they're trying to change the world around them.
00:04:49.539 --> 00:04:50.980
That is one situation.
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Then you have a character who doesn't know anything.
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They're flawed.
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You think they're perfect, but they don't do anything.
00:05:00.419 --> 00:05:01.379
They don't make mistakes.
00:05:01.379 --> 00:05:03.860
They don't make any choices and nothing ever happens.
00:05:04.019 --> 00:05:04.939
And I hate them.
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No, I'm just kidding.
00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:10.019
And it falls flat.
00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:11.060
There's a difference.
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So the asterisks, which I will not talk about again for the rest of this episode because it's different, is a static arc.
00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:17.289
We have episode on static arc.
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Static arc.
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We did with Lewis.
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Joyce said, it's amazing.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:20.519
Go look at it.
00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:31.600
But that is a completely different narrative structure that you choose intentionally because of the message that you're trying to say and the journey of the story and the way that the world changes, not your character.
00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:36.399
And 95% of you that are listening to this aren't writing that.
00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:37.959
So I don't want to hear it.
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I don't want to hear.
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Well, go listen to that episode because I love you.
00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:44.089
I just.
00:05:44.490 --> 00:05:45.610
I'm not being like.
00:05:45.610 --> 00:05:46.049
I'm not.
00:05:46.049 --> 00:05:47.169
This is all tongue in cheek.
00:05:47.169 --> 00:05:48.610
We're just being sassy, you guys.
00:05:48.610 --> 00:05:49.409
I'm just being sassy.
00:05:49.409 --> 00:05:50.250
I'm just being sassy.
00:05:50.250 --> 00:05:50.810
It's okay.
00:05:50.889 --> 00:05:51.889
But I do get.
00:05:51.889 --> 00:06:00.009
I do feel like I get that a lot of, like, well, my character, I'm writing a static arc, and I'm like, you heard that once and you latched onto it, and it wasn't on purpose.
00:06:00.089 --> 00:06:04.850
It was because it was an excuse because you didn't know how to fix the book that you wanted to dealt.
00:06:04.850 --> 00:06:07.049
You didn't know how to bring the vision to life that you wanted.
00:06:07.529 --> 00:06:11.850
So I think there's a difference, and I will hop off my high horse and stop complaining about it.
00:06:11.929 --> 00:06:14.329
Well, I think that's a. That's a very important distinction.
00:06:14.329 --> 00:06:24.949
Because the other thing about static arcs is just because their main character in a static arc is not making the same kinds of choices that a character in a positive arc would or negative arc would be, but the world around them is.
00:06:25.189 --> 00:06:30.269
And there are mistakes that are being made, big ones, and they have huge consequences.
00:06:30.269 --> 00:06:31.789
And there's change happening.
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It's just a different structure.
00:06:33.110 --> 00:06:34.870
So, okay, we won't put that aside.
00:06:35.350 --> 00:06:36.069
That aside.
00:06:36.069 --> 00:06:39.029
And like, even in a. Even in a static arc now, I'm going to keep going.
00:06:39.029 --> 00:06:42.649
Even in a static arc, the main character seems.
00:06:42.799 --> 00:06:45.959
Still makes mistakes, but it's not because they don't know the lesson.
00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:47.439
It's because of a different reason.
00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:48.120
So, like, there.
00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.000
There is structure to static arc.
00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:58.480
If you're not writing that on purpose with intention to tell a message about the world, then put that aside.
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This is not for you.
00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:01.199
This is for.
00:07:01.679 --> 00:07:05.480
This episode is for, like, this.
00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:06.159
This was.
00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:07.600
This was me.
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This was me like eight, seven, eight years ago when I was writing a character who I really wanted to be flawed, but I didn't know how to make her flawed.
00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:19.709
So she ended up just doing fine things all the time.
00:07:19.709 --> 00:07:23.709
And she never leaned into her flaws in a way that made sense.
00:07:23.709 --> 00:07:25.430
She never made mistakes on the page.
00:07:25.430 --> 00:07:27.629
So there were never consequences for those mistakes.
00:07:27.709 --> 00:07:34.670
I think what we don't set out with the intention to write perfect characters, what ends up happening is that you go easy on them.
00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:39.079
You let them get by with, like, making fine choices.
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And that's not the.
00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:43.360
That's not the crux of a character arc.
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That's not the purpose of story.
00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:53.719
Narrative narrative storytelling is set up to make your characters do dumb shit because they're flawed.
00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.800
And then the consequences show them that they were wrong.
00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:02.159
So you need to make it hard, make it hard on them.
00:08:02.159 --> 00:08:04.599
I think we get really we love our characters.
00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:06.279
I don't want to get them hurt.
00:08:06.819 --> 00:08:07.539
I don't want them.
00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:08.180
I don't.
00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:16.459
I don't want them to be making, you know, dumb choices because, you know, they're a reflection of me and they're part of me.
00:08:16.459 --> 00:08:19.060
And if I make dumb choices, then what does that say about me?
00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:20.579
No, stop it.
00:08:21.060 --> 00:08:23.459
See, I told you she got passionate about this.
00:08:26.420 --> 00:08:27.779
I was like, stop this.
00:08:28.979 --> 00:08:30.060
Just look.
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The very first client.
00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:34.139
The very first one on one client that I ever had.
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I love her to death.
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We started this.
00:08:38.319 --> 00:08:39.920
We started this narrative.
00:08:39.920 --> 00:08:42.240
You have to like her and I, we would.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:47.000
We would chant this at each other, like, crush, crush, crush, crush.
00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.720
Like, you have to crush your characters.
00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:54.079
You need to make it hard and make them make bad choices, flawed choices, dumb choices.
00:08:54.079 --> 00:08:54.720
I don't know what.
00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.680
I don't care what you want to call it, but make them make mistakes.
00:08:57.839 --> 00:09:01.839
For the love of God, please make mistakes.
00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:03.889
Because that's how they learn.
00:09:03.970 --> 00:09:16.329
And, like, as a reader, I am, like, locked in when I see a character doing things that I know are not gonna work out for them because it's like.
00:09:16.329 --> 00:09:17.289
It's the conflict.
00:09:17.289 --> 00:09:19.970
It's the idea of conflict sucks us in.
00:09:20.289 --> 00:09:22.289
We wanna watch the train wreck happen.
00:09:22.930 --> 00:09:24.849
I wanna see it unfold.
00:09:25.089 --> 00:09:27.329
And if there's no train wreck, I move on.
00:09:27.899 --> 00:09:28.339
I'm bored.
00:09:28.339 --> 00:09:29.339
I put the book down.
00:09:29.579 --> 00:09:30.460
Put the book down.
00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:31.819
Yeah. We have to see.
00:09:31.899 --> 00:09:34.139
A lot of this goes back into water.
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I knew that would happen.
00:09:37.259 --> 00:09:41.500
A lot of this goes back to what we talked about in a couple episodes ago with narrative drive.
00:09:41.579 --> 00:09:41.980
Right.
00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:44.700
Which is that your character needs to be shaping the story.
00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:45.539
And if it's an.
00:09:45.539 --> 00:09:54.860
If you have a character arc, which you should, then that means that the choices that your character's making are going to be wrong for 80% of the book.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:56.480
They're gonna be mistakes.
00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.200
Every single choice is gonna be a mistake.
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:04.079
And that feels like, I think, a lot of pressure for writers to be, like, every single scene.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.399
Yes, every single scene.
00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:07.120
Because.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:12.000
And that comes down to, like, their plans, their overall plans for what they're doing are wrong.
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:21.399
And so even if it doesn't feel like their choices in the moment are, like, gonna have huge consequences, it's the concept of the fact that they're following this big plan.
00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:29.990
And if you have them following this big plan in every single scene and stay sticking to that big, flawed plan in every single scene, then those mistakes are gonna accumulate.
00:10:29.990 --> 00:10:30.349
Right?
00:10:30.670 --> 00:10:31.309
And so.
00:10:32.029 --> 00:10:38.110
And that's very important, like Rachel said, for teaching them and teaching them why they were wrong.
00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:40.349
How they are flawed and allowing them to change.
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If they're not making mistakes, they have no reason to change.
00:10:43.470 --> 00:10:43.829
Right.
00:10:43.829 --> 00:10:48.829
If the choices that they're making don't have flawed consequences, then they're not flawed choices.
00:10:49.629 --> 00:10:51.629
Exactly. Yeah. And like, we.
00:10:52.370 --> 00:10:55.490
I think we may have mentioned this on the podcast, but you and I have talked before.
00:10:57.409 --> 00:11:05.809
I think the accumulation of consequences is really important because we hear, like, the struggle from writers that we teach.
00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:14.210
We hear the struggle that it is really hard to make a character make a flawed choice in every single scene and have that character remain likable.
00:11:14.769 --> 00:11:15.569
I hear you.
00:11:15.569 --> 00:11:16.690
It's a challenge.
00:11:16.930 --> 00:11:23.409
But what's the important part is that even if they're making a flawed choice, it might be two steps forward, one step back.
00:11:23.889 --> 00:11:24.250
Right.
00:11:24.250 --> 00:11:27.250
Like, it's the consequences that force us the steps back.
00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:28.849
So even if they're.
00:11:28.849 --> 00:11:32.930
They're not doing the right thing, we may look like we're on the up and up.
00:11:33.009 --> 00:11:33.970
Things might be.
00:11:34.690 --> 00:11:53.049
Might be working out temporarily, but the whole point is that their flawed choices have consequences which accumulate and snowball and result in bad things, because it's the bad consequences that show us that we've been doing wrong, that we've been making wrong choices.
00:11:53.450 --> 00:12:09.210
So I'm going to give you some leeway that even as you're writing, if you're like, well, I need there to be a win, otherwise the plot is too depressing, cool, let there be a win.
00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:17.799
But the whole point of the character arc is that we cannot outrun the negative consequences of our flawed choices.
00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:19.079
So they pile up.
00:12:19.319 --> 00:12:20.599
We're not doing it right.
00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:25.039
So if we need to have a win, like, books will have ups and downs.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:31.039
We have wins, we have losses, but the losses are greater, right?
00:12:28.599 --> 00:12:43.319
Like, the bad choices have bigger consequences, and it accumulates until we can't look away anymore and we realize, oh, that might not have turned out as bad as it could have in perhaps that one situation, but it was still wrong.
00:12:43.829 --> 00:13:00.589
Or, oh, I'm only here because of this pattern that I have of mistrust or this pattern of flawed thinking, whatever it is, that we hit the rock bottom because of the flaws.
00:13:00.589 --> 00:13:04.230
And if you don't let the characters make mistakes, they have no rock bottom.
00:13:04.789 --> 00:13:06.710
So stop treating them so precious.
00:13:07.349 --> 00:13:09.990
Yeah, I'm getting heated again.
00:13:11.430 --> 00:13:12.309
Well, so.
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:14.160
So sometimes what people.
00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:16.000
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:17.039
Nope, nope.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.799
Sometimes people will say, well, you know, on.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:21.680
On this note of.
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:22.839
Of victories, right?
00:13:22.839 --> 00:13:31.799
Giving them wins, they'll be like, well, they're succeeding in what they want or what they think they want, right?
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:33.920
Like they set out a goal to beat the love interest at getting the business deal.
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:34.319
Right.
00:13:34.319 --> 00:13:36.160
And they're getting closer to the business deal.
00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:36.559
Right.
00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.200
That feels like a win to the character.
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:39.599
Right.
00:13:39.599 --> 00:13:47.200
They are getting what they think they want, but what they actually want in that, you know, very basic premise, right, is love.
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.720
Like what they actually need is love.
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.279
They think they want this business deal, but really what they need is love.
00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:55.039
And so it's actually a loss, Right.
00:13:55.118 --> 00:14:01.440
Every time they get closer to that business deal, they are, there are long term negative consequences because they are pushing love away.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:02.559
Exactly.
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:08.440
And so even if it feels like a win, it can actually be a loss because it's not actually what your character wants.
00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:14.240
It's pushing them further from their deeper desires, even if they think they're getting closer to their conscious desires.
00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:20.079
So just, I get a lot of pushback there sometimes from folks and that's, that's fine.
00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:29.599
And then the other thing that people will say is, well, my character, is it okay if they make the right quote unquote choice for the wrong quote unquote reasons?
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.519
So it's a mistake, but like they're doing the right thing in the scene.
00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:37.200
And I think that all comes down to consequences, right?
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:45.740
What are the actual tangible consequences in their relationships with other people in what's going to happen in the plot because of the choices that they're making in that moment?
00:14:45.819 --> 00:14:49.940
If the long term consequences are negative, then that's fine.
00:14:49.940 --> 00:14:52.099
Then it can be the right choice for the wrong reasons.
00:14:52.099 --> 00:14:52.339
Right?
00:14:52.339 --> 00:14:59.980
But if it's the right choice, quote unquote, and positive things happen because of it, then it's not, you know, it's not the right choice, right.
00:14:59.980 --> 00:15:00.700
For that scene.
00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:01.900
You have to rethink it.
00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:07.220
Because if they're making the right quote unquote choice in that moment, that will have positive consequences.
00:15:07.220 --> 00:15:09.579
That implies that they have learned your story point.
00:15:10.049 --> 00:15:14.289
That implies that they know that they've let go of their flawed beliefs.
00:15:14.849 --> 00:15:17.890
And if it's not time to do that, it's not time to do that.
00:15:18.129 --> 00:15:19.569
And so you got to rethink things.
00:15:19.650 --> 00:15:21.170
And that's getting a little in the nuance.
00:15:21.170 --> 00:15:30.049
But for people who, like, understand some of these terms and are like in the weeds and struggling with that in a scene, I think looking at the consequences can be really helpful.
00:15:30.129 --> 00:15:32.769
Will they be negative or will they be positive in the long run?
00:15:33.250 --> 00:15:49.980
That's something that I've, that I personally have really struggled with in the Shadows Syndicate series that I'm writing because of the amount of characters that I have that are all interacting with the plot in slightly different ways, and they all kind of have slightly different goals.
00:15:50.220 --> 00:16:05.190
Like, there are times where I need a choice to be made that pushes our plot forward, but that there's a consequence that comes back later where that character was like, well, shit, that I hurt someone around me by doing that.
00:16:05.269 --> 00:16:10.230
I felt like it was the right thing for my goals, but I hurt someone, and now I have to deal with that conflict.
00:16:10.789 --> 00:16:12.470
That's. Then. This is tricky.
00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:13.230
I think this is.
00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:19.670
I mean, letting your characters make mistakes influences the plot going back to narrative drive.
00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:26.029
And the more details and intricacies that you insert into the plot, the harder it is to link all this together.
00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:26.470
It's hard.
00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:26.869
I'm not.
00:16:26.869 --> 00:16:27.349
I'm not.
00:16:27.349 --> 00:16:27.829
Yeah.
00:16:27.910 --> 00:16:30.660
And I'm going to be the first to say I.
00:16:31.220 --> 00:16:33.059
Here's my confession for the day.
00:16:33.140 --> 00:16:39.940
I will flex the numbers a little bit in my books to, like, make it make sense, but the arc is always still top of mind.
00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:50.259
So even if I have a scene where I'm like, this character is going to slip by, but the consequence is going to come back to bite us later, because otherwise they won't change.
00:16:50.660 --> 00:16:51.940
They are not going to see.
00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:55.779
They are not going to see, like, the whole.
00:16:56.450 --> 00:17:00.129
The. The way that they've been wrong unless we have a consequence.
00:17:00.609 --> 00:17:02.930
Yeah. And that takes time and refinement.
00:17:02.930 --> 00:17:12.690
I mean, look, as as heated as I was earlier, guys, please know that all of my heat is.
00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:14.450
Is like, you still.
00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:16.450
This is a revisions thing, okay?
00:17:16.450 --> 00:17:16.849
Yes,
00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:19.609
Literally.
00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:28.180
I wrote an email about this to our email list because I was like, whatever time you hear writing advice, it's a revision thing, okay?
00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:28.180
Don't worry about it.
00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:33.779
When you're drafting, all of the advice we give is, like, put it in practice over time.
00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:35.700
You're not doing anything wrong.
00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:37.259
You're not trash.
00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:38.500
Your book's not trash.
00:17:38.500 --> 00:17:39.420
Don't worry about it.
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:39.980
It's okay.
00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:40.900
We don't hate it.
00:17:41.379 --> 00:17:42.460
I don't hate you.
00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:43.019
I love you.
00:17:43.019 --> 00:17:43.819
I'm so glad you're here.
00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:44.740
Thank you for listening.
00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:47.059
I support you and your dreams.
00:17:48.430 --> 00:17:49.230
I've got your back.
00:17:49.470 --> 00:17:50.670
I'm not mad at you.
00:17:50.829 --> 00:17:52.269
I'm mad at the situation.
00:17:53.470 --> 00:18:04.990
But no, like, this is something that comes over time with multiple drafts, with revisions, with understanding how narrative drive works, with, like, changing plot structure.
00:18:04.990 --> 00:18:05.710
Like, it.
00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:06.269
It's.
00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:09.950
It comes with practice and time and drafts.
00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:11.950
So I'm not.
00:18:12.190 --> 00:18:13.069
Take a. This one.
00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:19.250
In the narrative dive episodes, you know, we get excited and heated about it because I think these are two things.
00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:24.210
You know, not having Narrative drive and not having letting characters make mistakes that people.
00:18:24.289 --> 00:18:31.809
That is so common for newer writers to do, and it's so common for newer writers to be like, I don't have this issue.
00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:32.369
Right.
00:18:32.369 --> 00:18:34.490
And we get a lot of pushback on these things.
00:18:34.490 --> 00:18:46.289
And so I think that's where the intensity is coming from, is us being, like, trying to break through those walls because these are so important, and we know how important they are, and we want people to understand that and that there's nothing wrong with you or your book if you don't have these things.
00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:46.569
But.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:53.200
But, like, recognizing that they are something that you need to revise into your story in order to make them engaging is very, very important.
00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:59.680
And the writers that acknowledge that and kind of come at it with the humility of, like, let's figure out how to do this.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.119
I think succeed.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.160
Like, those are the people we see succeed a lot and really well.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:11.680
And so that is all coming from a place of love and a place of experience that we know a lot of people will say these things.
00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:13.849
Yes. Very beautifully said.
00:19:13.849 --> 00:19:14.490
Because the.
00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:22.250
The pushback that we get, we can always tell it comes from a place of resistance that you do not want to see the holes in your book.
00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:23.490
And so you come.
00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:24.289
This is, like, going back.
00:19:24.289 --> 00:19:25.650
I feel like a reflection of you.
00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:26.410
It's a shame thing.
00:19:26.410 --> 00:19:26.890
Exactly.
00:19:27.129 --> 00:19:28.250
It's a shame thing.
00:19:28.650 --> 00:19:30.089
It's an identity thing.
00:19:30.490 --> 00:19:31.890
It's a validation thing.
00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:37.049
If. If I have a mistake in my book that I have to go back and rewrite everything, I have failed.
00:19:37.210 --> 00:19:38.129
No, that's not true.
00:19:38.129 --> 00:19:39.529
We all go back and rewrite everything.
00:19:39.529 --> 00:19:40.410
Everybody does it.
00:19:40.789 --> 00:19:41.750
That's part of the process.
00:19:42.150 --> 00:19:48.390
But when we get the pushback, it's more like I'm trying to come up with an answer for the draft I already have.
00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:49.430
That makes sense.
00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:54.470
Versus I recognize that this draft needs more mistakes.
00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:58.309
Or I recognize that this character arc is not quite hitting.
00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:01.670
It's missing something, or the consequences aren't there.
00:20:01.750 --> 00:20:03.430
I should amp those up a little bit.
00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:05.029
Maybe I should change the plot.
00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:05.830
Like, that's.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:06.799
That's the difference.
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.240
So I guess you're completely right.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.680
Like, the heat that I have comes from number one, how.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.519
How important I think this is for books in general.
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.120
Like, this is foundational character knowledge that is really important for character arcs.
00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:25.360
So when it's not there, you see the ripple effects throughout the rest of the story, where the plot.
00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:26.920
There's something lacking in the plot.
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:28.600
The narrative drive has holes in it.
00:20:28.600 --> 00:20:30.240
Our pacing isn't working right.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.480
We're not getting payoff in Act 3.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.990
So, like, the ripple effects of not letting your characters make mistakes go through the entire novel.
00:20:38.150 --> 00:20:39.029
So it's really important.
00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:45.230
And then on the flip side, don't let your resistance, like, get in the way of.
00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:51.670
Or your perfectionism or your fear of failure or your imposter syndrome or whatever it is on in Mindset wise.
00:20:52.150 --> 00:21:01.470
Don't let it get in the way of, like, I could probably amp this up a bit or this needs more work, or I want to take the vision in this direction now.
00:21:01.470 --> 00:21:05.500
If you have a vision for your story and you're behind that vision, I don't care.
00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:06.259
Do what you want.
00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:11.860
I'm always gonna be way more happy for you doing that if that's the vision for your story.
00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:17.860
But no, this is also where it comes in of, like, you have to know the rule to break the rule.
00:21:18.580 --> 00:21:22.140
If you don't know the theory, you're not gonna break it with purpose.
00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:23.460
You're just missing the theory.
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.059
And I think that's different.
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:26.620
I don't care if you.
00:21:26.620 --> 00:21:29.539
If you know the rule and break the rule, do whatever you want.
00:21:30.350 --> 00:21:37.230
But when people don't know the rule, that's when they get really frustrated with their drafts and they're like, I don't understand why this doesn't work.
00:21:37.789 --> 00:21:39.069
I don't understand why.
00:21:39.069 --> 00:21:41.390
I feel like something's missing.
00:21:42.269 --> 00:21:43.549
Yeah, okay, that's.
00:21:44.350 --> 00:21:44.990
I gotta.
00:21:44.990 --> 00:21:46.830
I'm hopping off the soapbox again.
00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:48.750
You can take my place.
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:55.390
So the only thing I. Other thing I want to add with this is I think this applies to secondary characters as well.
00:21:56.100 --> 00:21:57.059
Um, yeah, yeah.
00:21:57.059 --> 00:22:04.819
And I. Speaking from experience, my first series that I worked on had, like, a massive cast, and I just.
00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:16.420
I didn't have the craft knowledge to like, make them all really human in the way that if I ever go back to that project, that I would want to make it, like, gritty and human and make them all flawed.
00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:17.940
Like, everybody was just like, a little bit.
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:28.210
They were all quirky, they all had different quirks, they were different from each other, but they were all essentially good people except for the villains, you know, and then the villains were bad people.
00:22:28.210 --> 00:22:29.769
And again, this is a revisions thing.
00:22:29.769 --> 00:22:30.210
If you.
00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:45.330
You know, I write very cardboard characters into my first drafts, but it's very important to make sure that your cast as a whole feels human as you are revising and bringing depth to your story.
00:22:45.490 --> 00:22:46.850
Because readers.
00:22:47.330 --> 00:22:52.210
Readers are just not going to be as interested in a cast that is, like, predictably good all the time.
00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:52.580
Right.
00:22:52.580 --> 00:22:55.860
Like, we want to be slightly afraid of people of some of the characters.
00:22:55.860 --> 00:22:58.819
We want to be slightly confused about the motives of other characters.
00:22:58.819 --> 00:22:59.620
We want them to.
00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:00.740
We want to, like.
00:23:01.380 --> 00:23:05.059
Want to love someone, but they keep making mistakes that we can't forgive.
00:23:05.059 --> 00:23:05.380
Right.
00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:09.220
We want to have that complexity, and that comes from allowing your characters to be human.
00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:11.940
And to allow them to be human, you have to allow them to make.
00:23:12.100 --> 00:23:12.900
Make mistakes.
00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:14.220
So this doesn't apply.
00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:15.940
It doesn't just apply to your main character.
00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:19.250
It also applies to everybody else in your story, including your villains.
00:23:19.330 --> 00:23:21.930
They're going to make the biggest mistakes, but they still have to be human.
00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:24.170
They can't just be villains for villains sake.
00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:25.730
And we have episodes about that.
00:23:26.049 --> 00:23:27.250
But I just think.
00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:28.610
I just want to kind of put that.
00:23:28.610 --> 00:23:30.049
That note in here that this is.
00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:31.009
This is about your whole.
00:23:31.009 --> 00:23:31.650
Whole cast.
00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:39.529
We want our readers to come into a story and see people who are human and human people make mistakes.
00:23:39.529 --> 00:23:40.289
We're flawed.
00:23:40.769 --> 00:23:41.170
Let's.
00:23:41.170 --> 00:23:53.120
Okay, so before we wrap up, I want to touch on the point you've just made, because I also think some of the pushback we get about this is the question of likability.
00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:54.519
Yeah.
00:23:54.519 --> 00:24:01.440
So people fearing that if they make their characters make mistakes, they will no longer be likable.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:11.720
So what you just said was that, like humans, it's so natural for people to make mistakes.
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:13.160
Every human does it.
00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.960
And we don't have that.
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:18.039
Like, we don't end up having that reaction.
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:25.559
I think that's an unfounded myth about 90% of the time that if your characters make mistakes, that means they're unlikable.
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:32.600
Now, I know we talked about this on the podcast before, how this was something that you struggled with a little bit with fear in.
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:33.279
Yeah.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.569
Do you want to touch on the likability and the mistakes question?
00:24:36.809 --> 00:24:38.090
No, That's a really good point.
00:24:38.330 --> 00:24:39.610
Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:24:39.610 --> 00:24:47.610
A lot of times the pushback is like, we love our characters so much, we don't want to let them do anything that might make readers angry with them.
00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:48.009
Right.
00:24:48.009 --> 00:24:48.410
Yes.
00:24:48.970 --> 00:24:49.769
And I think.
00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:58.970
I mean, I would push back and say that I think sometimes the characters we love the most are the ones who have flaws, that we're like, oh, baby, just heal.
00:24:59.049 --> 00:25:01.210
If you just heal, you can have happiness.
00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:01.650
Right.
00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:05.289
Like those sad characters who just can't help themselves.
00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:09.529
And there's something that's deeply likable about them, but they're still making mistakes.
00:25:09.529 --> 00:25:11.289
That makes us love them even more, I think.
00:25:12.330 --> 00:25:16.650
But in terms of, you know, if you have a character who is truly morally gray.
00:25:16.650 --> 00:25:16.930
Right.
00:25:16.930 --> 00:25:20.930
Who makes really big mistakes and you're asking the reader to empathize with them, right?
00:25:20.930 --> 00:25:23.210
Because they're your main character, like Feren.
00:25:24.009 --> 00:25:29.210
Then you want to make sure that it's very, very clear to the reader why they are the way they are.
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:32.289
This is one of the big reasons that I included Fearen's backstory.
00:25:32.289 --> 00:25:35.769
Like, have an actual dual timeline where we get to see her as a.
00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:43.630
So that we understand why she is the way that she is, and we get to see that and live through that, and, like, understand how she changed over time.
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:45.230
That was one of the reasons that I included that.
00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:47.269
It's not the only reason, but it's one of the reasons.
00:25:47.750 --> 00:26:00.710
And I think that the more that you can just show your readers why your character wants what they want, why they believe the flawed things that they believe, why they have the fears, the unfounded fears that they have.
00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:00.950
Right.
00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:02.150
Founded and unfounded.
00:26:02.740 --> 00:26:05.660
Um, and all of that lives in their backstory, right?
00:26:05.660 --> 00:26:11.539
It lives in, like, why they are the way that they are and the things that have happened to them, the people that have hurt them, the things they've learned over time.
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:12.900
And so to.
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:13.860
To make an.
00:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.860
A character who is, you know, makes bad decision, really bad decisions.
00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:22.340
And, like, not all mistakes are, like, make you Evil, Right, Exactly.
00:26:22.580 --> 00:26:23.539
Make mistakes.
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:27.940
Like in the example of, like, trying to get the business deal at the expense of love, right?
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:28.809
Like, that.
00:26:28.809 --> 00:26:31.130
That person's not necessarily an evil person.
00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:31.809
It just.
00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:32.490
They just have.
00:26:32.569 --> 00:26:35.210
Their priorities are a little, like, messed up, right.
00:26:35.210 --> 00:26:36.490
Because of their flawed beliefs.
00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:38.569
And so.
00:26:38.569 --> 00:26:40.049
But if you do have a character who.
00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:43.690
Who makes truly bad decisions, right, they hurt people, like, fear and hurts people.
00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:49.610
It needs to be abundantly clear to the reader why they're doing that so that we can root for them to change.
00:26:50.090 --> 00:26:56.850
It's like, we're going to be partly engaged because we want to see the train wreck, and we're partly engaged because we want to see them overcome that.
00:26:56.850 --> 00:27:01.110
Those demons and, like, become a healed version of themselves and get the things that.
00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:02.309
That they truly want.
00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:02.670
Right?
00:27:02.670 --> 00:27:03.590
Like, for her, it's love.
00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:04.870
It's like, we want her to find love.
00:27:04.870 --> 00:27:05.750
We need you to change.
00:27:05.830 --> 00:27:06.990
You can find love, right?
00:27:06.990 --> 00:27:09.670
And that keeps people moving, reading and flipping pages.
00:27:09.670 --> 00:27:14.789
But if you didn't understand why Faerien is the way that she is, you would just hate her and you would put the book down.
00:27:15.029 --> 00:27:15.950
So that's how you.
00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:22.150
That's how empathy is built, is like showing the humanity of a character to the reader so we can understand why they are the way they are.
00:27:22.630 --> 00:27:24.069
Exactly. Backstory.
00:27:24.150 --> 00:27:25.830
Why do they have their flaws.
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:26.940
Where.
00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.420
Where do these flaws come from?
00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:33.779
Why are they driven by these flaws?
00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:34.259
Because that answers, why are we making these mistakes?
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:38.980
And if we can understand why these mistakes were made, we can empathize with it.
00:27:39.140 --> 00:27:44.819
And if we can empathize with it, we give a lot of grace to these characters that make a lot of mistakes.
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:47.220
Because, like, it could be us, right?
00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:49.460
Like, you know, if we have the.
00:27:49.620 --> 00:27:55.230
If we see that that happened to this character, what if that happened to us?
00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:55.230
Okay, I can see how they got there.
00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:56.590
That's always my question.
00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.430
Can I see how this character got to this point?
00:28:00.590 --> 00:28:04.069
And if the answer is yes, I'm like, make your mistakes.
00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:04.830
Flawed person.
00:28:04.990 --> 00:28:08.269
Go, yeah, I will follow you, and I will see, did you change or not?
00:28:08.269 --> 00:28:10.350
Because that's the question is I. I'm.
00:28:10.350 --> 00:28:13.710
We are, as readers, we are compelled by the question, will they change or not?
00:28:13.950 --> 00:28:17.789
We're not turned off by the question of this person is flawed.
00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.789
But unless we don't know why.
00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:20.690
Exactly.
00:28:20.690 --> 00:28:21.769
Unless we don't know why.
00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:24.009
If we don't know why, then we're like, you're dumb.
00:28:24.650 --> 00:28:25.529
You're dumb.
00:28:25.850 --> 00:28:29.330
Why are you doing this?
00:28:25.850 --> 00:28:30.009
But if we know why, then we're like, oh, you poor baby.
00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:31.370
Of course you're this way.
00:28:32.090 --> 00:28:35.049
And then we're like, I can't stand to see you this way.
00:28:35.049 --> 00:28:37.529
I really want you to find happiness and love.
00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:39.049
Oh, you deserve it.
00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:40.250
You've just been hurt before.
00:28:40.569 --> 00:28:43.610
Like, that's the kind of emotion.
00:28:44.330 --> 00:28:49.789
Yeah. That's the vibe that is what we are trying to evoke in our reader.
00:28:49.870 --> 00:28:54.069
So it's not the mistakes that turn the character off or that turn the reader off.
00:28:54.069 --> 00:28:57.950
It's not understanding why we make those mistakes.
00:28:58.190 --> 00:29:04.590
So that's part of making this clear on the page through internal processing, through the use of backstory, through showing, not telling.
00:29:04.910 --> 00:29:16.799
Like, when we can make that clear through those techniques, the reader's gonna be chugging along with us, no matter what happens, and waiting to see, you know, how does this turn out?
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.799
I can't wait to find out.
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.480
Do we get what we want?
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:18.480
Do we change?
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.720
Or do we fail and not get what we want?
00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:27.319
So please, please, please, please, for the love of God, please, just let them.
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:28.160
This is your mistakes.
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:29.440
Just let them make mistakes.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:30.400
This is your permission.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.480
Make them suffer.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.840
I love that when my.
00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:38.680
When my readers are in my Instagram DMs, and they're like, oh, you made your character suffer.
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:39.120
I'm like.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:45.360
Like, I send, like, the little purple devil emoji, and I'm like, yeah, yesterday one of my.
00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:48.400
Okay, so my pen name is R E May.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:53.440
So yesterday one of my readers was in my DMs calling me Rachel Evil May.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:54.960
And I was like, that's it.
00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:55.920
That's.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.000
That's my middle name.
00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:57.920
Don't wear it out.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:00.400
They love it.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:01.799
Readers truly love it.
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:02.799
So, like, lean in.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:03.840
This is your permission.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.120
Make them suffer.
00:30:05.120 --> 00:30:05.880
It's okay.
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:06.640
And I'm not.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.720
You don't have to, like, you know, physical suffer, emotional suffer.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:11.779
I want to feel the angst.
00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:13.850
I want to see the struggle.
00:30:14.090 --> 00:30:16.490
It's that struggle that, like, really draws us in.
00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:19.690
Okay, I'm done, you guys.
00:30:21.130 --> 00:30:26.490
If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:30.170
Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:34.490
After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
00:30:34.890 --> 00:30:35.930
Link in the show notes.
00:30:35.930 --> 00:30:36.730
We'll see you there.
00:30:37.370 --> 00:30:37.930
Bye.
00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:39.390
It.
