WEBVTT
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When we're looking at treaties, I think that they're not just environmental or ecological infrastructure.
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They're also social and cultural infrastructure.
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I'd also add that they are emotional and psychological infrastructure as well.
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Daisy and Michael, welcome.
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Thanks for joining me today in person.
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Thank you for having us.
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Oh, delighted, Timothy.
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Thank you.
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So before we start talking about landscape and trees proper, I had a bit of feedback recently that people did enjoy the icebreaker question that I sometimes do and sometimes don't.
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So I'm going to use it again today.
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I'll be asking the questions, but let's start by giving you a chance to ask me anything that you like.
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You can have one each, or you can do a joint one, whatever you wish.
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Anything that you like.
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Okay.
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Can I ask your question?
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Okay, so it's a it's a beautiful autumn afternoon.
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You have a free afternoon.
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I don't know if that actually exists.
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And you get to choose a tree to go and sit under and read a book.
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Where would that be?
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Which tree would that be?
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In terms of which species of tree it would be, I'm hopeless with that kind of thing.
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But in terms of the context of where I would go to, uh, I think it would be the thing that immediately comes to mind would be like a single tree in an urban context, you know, so like one particularly big tree that gives you like shade, and it might be in like a little courtyard or an urban park somewhere, as opposed to being in a um maybe it's just because of where I am today, as opposed to thinking about being in like in nature completely.
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I like the idea of the single tree in a in a relatively treeless landscape, whether that is a desert or whether it's an urban environment.
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Yeah.
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So tree.
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So I was gonna ask, what what's your earliest memory of a tree?
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Goodness, earliest memory of a tree.
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You know, it would probably be uh the tree in the backyard of of an early childhood home.
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Not my first child home, but an early childhood home in a fairly suburban setting in England, uh in which I had a bit of a I mean, a tree house would be would be um exaggerating it, but a bit of a den within the tree.
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Yeah, very good.
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So memories of of play in play in kind of shelter and um yeah, even even in a very controlled suburban environment, the ability to like carve out a little nook to flavor your friends.
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Place for the imagination, perhaps.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, that's the first thing that pops to mind.
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It's probably not objectively the first memory in there, but that's the point.
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Oh, it's not after the objective.
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Good, I'm with you.
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Yeah.
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Well, um let me ask you to introduce yourselves properly.
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Uh tell me who you are, what you do, and where you're based, please.
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I'm I'm Daisy Richmond Smith.
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I work at DKO as a senior associate in landscape architecture.
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I lead the landscape architecture division with Sam McCubbin.
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And I I came on board over three years ago now to really work within the space of integrated design.
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So getting the voice of landscape architecture at the start of the conversation within architecture.
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And I feel very grateful that you know I've landed here.
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It's worked really well.
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Um, that DKO really wants landscape architecture to have that voice at the start of the process.
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Um, so my work really sits at the intersection of landscape architecture, um, wayfinding strategy, user experience, environmental psychology.
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It's really about how people feel in space.
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And something that really anchors my work is that connection to nature within the built environment.
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Okay, wonderful.
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Uh, thanks, Truthie.
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Well, my name's Michael Wright.
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I'm a landscape architect, but I also call myself a gardener.
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I I've also recently become a lawyer and I've won the program Hardquiz on the ABC.
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So I have a bizarre range of interests, including the fate of the A380 aircraft.
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Um, but just for the purpose of this discussion, really, a vital interest in gardening, which I've been working at since about 1985, um, and had lucky to have had some gardens ever since.
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And the gardens really have been the origins of our creative work in landscape architecture.
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Okay, I I can't help but just ask quickly on the did you say law?
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Yeah, law.
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Is there any overlap with the gardening and the landscape with the law?
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There is, yeah, particularly money at practice.
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There's just so many areas where the law has been very helpful.
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Um the particular areas of copyright and intellectual property, uh, where we often see issues, shall we say, um, with how we manage our work and the work of others and the way our work and others' work is represented.
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So that that's been very helpful.
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Yeah, I suppose there are some differences there between the the the built environment, um, at least in terms of you know, um man-made built architectural forms that are maybe easier to copyright or quantify in some sense.
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Whereas does landscape bleed a little bit more into um difficulties with image rights and ownership and that kind of thing?
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Yeah, that it's a very good question.
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And um, it's unclear whether works of landscape architecture can be subject to copyright, because they they aren't fixed in material form in the way a building or artwork or image or a photograph is.
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And there is more, you know, case law to suggest that copyright might be hard to substantiate in landscape in the built work, but certainly in our drawings and our images and so on.
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You know, it's it's unquestionable what copyright would uh subsist the moment the works are produced or okay, very interesting.
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I wasn't expecting that curveball, but we might even watch it.
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That's a very long discussion, believe me.
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Yeah, well, I mean, we're here to talk about landscape design, landscape architecture in general, but but more specifically about trees today or and the tree, hence your early questions.
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Daisy, I might start with the piece that you wrote not too long ago that was quite specifically about trees.
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Uh there are the I mean there's so much to go into here, right?
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But I might just start by throwing a quote back at you from that piece and we'll use that as a way into the discussion.
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So, quote, uh in an anxious age, trees offer more than shade.
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They offer calm, clarity, perspective.
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They help us remember what it feels like to breathe deeply.
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Let's just start with some reflections on the themes raised there.
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Thank you.
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I think that's a really grounding part of the piece that I wrote.
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Um and really it it gets to the heart of it that I think in this world that we're living in, that at the moment feels particularly heavy, we want to connect to something greater than ourselves.
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And in whatever form that takes, I think the tree is almost a a uniting anchor, emotional, psychological, even spiritual anchor that we can hold to.
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So I think that it is, I don't know if it's a unique, unique element, but it certainly for me is very important.
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And in the work that we do, I see it as a really important piece in in providing something in this crazy world.
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And and what comes to mind when you hear that quote about the the anxious age contrasted with the with the tree, really?
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Well, I think I think really trees connect us to the origins of our humanity in a way.
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Like trees and people have arisen together.
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You know, there's cultivation of the tree.
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We rely on trees intimately uh for food, shelter, you know, products, all of those things.
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So I think people perhaps might unconsciously um attach to trees in a way that talks to that.
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We are an early origin of what's important about trees.
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As, you know, obviously much more than you know, conventional discourse about forestry and assets and all those sort of things.
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You know, it is a sort of profound thing.
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I think it's possibly why people get so upset when trees are destroyed, you know, for whatever reason.
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It is a refreshing way into this kind of topic to not just think about landscape in general or quote-unquote nature or uh greening something, and to think a little bit more specifically about the tree as the kind of um central form of that.
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I think what what helps me to think about it, and this definitely comes out of your piece, Daisy, is is what like what it's contrasted against.
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So the things that came through when I read it were kind of slowness, um all those layers of importance that you just mentioned, like the in the environmental, I think the emotional, the symbolic, um, and then the sense it we I think at one point you contrasted it with density, data, and deadlines.
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So perhaps you could both speak about what do you see this idea of the tree as contrasted with?
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Uh what is the anxious age that you're talking about in that other quote?
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So I think that thinking about in time is really important.
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And that sort of, you know, that deadlines data, that fast-paced where so and living in living in sort of a fast sitting working hard, all this, it's it's almost we we we get ourselves stuck in this microcosm of doing, producing, fast-paced.
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Whereas, and it's it's almost like a short-term thinking as well.
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Whereas the tree grounds us in and zoom for me, zooms us out um in a longer-term perspective, thinking about um intergenerational planning, intergenerational design, how a tree grows.
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It's a very different system to thinking about these short-term things and uh the systems it plays into and the time that's required.
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Yeah, I think the time is clearly a really important thing that comes through.
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And also uh care on that as well.
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Like does that element of care play into this um anti-short-termism as well?
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Because to curve for something like a tree, you don't really get short-term benefits in a sense.
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It's about thinking much longer term.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely, thinking much longer term, uh, almost having faith in what the tree will become, knowing that you don't need instant, well, you know, instant measures, instant gratification, but there is this sort of patience and faith in growing something bigger than yourself.
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And what comes to your mind in terms of deadlines and data and all that kind of business?
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Um, looking increasingly, you know, there's an appetite for speed, um, and that's not really, you know, a great thing for design.
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You know, design should be about careful study, you know, as opposed to the rushed-out design competition, which is the reverse about, you know, that design does require study.
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And in some ways, that in landscape that, you know, that's analogous to the way in which a tree commences life, you know, the journey of an idea, you know, the growing through maturity, uh, and then the persistence uh with age, which is what really good design does.
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You know, good design are the things that have lasted long a long time.
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Uh, and that includes great buildings and also great trees.
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And here I'm always reminded of the big fig on to main road that was planted in about 1880.
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It's up to 145 years.
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It was there when I went to school in 1974.
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Um, and it's got better and better and better.
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It's been looked after, properly looked after by the city.
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It's got space.
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Um, it's probably been there in another hundred years.
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Uh, these are amazing kind of civic monuments uh that the trees have become and that you know and they span generations, you know, we're up to seven generations in that tree alone.
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Yeah, well, and we might come back to some more of the uh emotional or symbolic uh importances, important layers with that.
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But can I ask you to tell me about this idea of uh trees as infrastructure?
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We were having a conversation about this other day.
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Yeah, absolutely unmeted.
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Um uh infrastructure, so I think that they do perform like infrastructure performs.
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And if we look at the definition of infrastructure, I think that they can be classified as that.
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But to name a tree as just infrastructure, I think is is not the right way to go about it.
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I think of them as so much more.
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But I think that if we we focus on that infrastructure side of it and we say, yes, they do perform essential services for society, then we start to think about what they need to then do that performance.
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So we then start to look at what systems they need, what systems they provide.
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So looking at um root systems, um, required, required soil volumes, water, light, etc.
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So we start to look at those things rather than just having sort of putting them in where they might not actually perform.
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So it changes the way that we think about putting them into space.
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So I think in short, yes, they do perform and they can be classified as infrastructure, green infrastructure, as we all know.
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Um, but they are so much more.
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And that takes us into the territory of quantifiable, measurable things for designers to work with, right?
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Such as if you're, you know, a particular site that you're working with, you might have to have a certain uh meet a certain drainage criteria.
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I don't know exactly the terms you'd use for this.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But is that right that it takes you into that territory of, as I said, we've we've got the more emotional, intangible stuff that we mentioned earlier, but it also has these practical dimensions that designers can and I'm sure you think must work around.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And really, we're moving in such a great way where we have planning controls that um, you know, where we're looking towards UN City of Melbourne, we're looking towards 40% canopy cover, which is enormous from 22, I believe.
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Uh, and a lot of in Victoria, New South Wales, Cleveland, that's a bit of a benchmark.
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We're looking at about 25% canopy cover, um, depending on a few things.
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Um, but that's, you know, we're so we're we're looking for that.
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And then we kind of work backwards and go, okay, if we need that much canopy cover, what trees do we need then to provide that canopy cover?
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And then what soil do we actually need to provide and sustain those trees?
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So we're sort of working backwards like that.
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The tree almost works in the other way, going from roots to crown rather than crown to roots, which I find interesting.
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But it doesn't matter really.
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We we we get the same outcome and it works for everything.
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And Michael might be able to add to this.
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I'll try.
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Yeah, I mean, I think trees are part of a, can be part of the infrastructure system.
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And that those sort of systems are where landscape architecture design has gained a fair bit of traction, you know, in last perhaps the last 20 years, where, you know, things like water-sensitive projects become a necessary part of engineering or a necessary part of an apartment podium, that sort of thing, where the the trees are actually performing a very specific function.
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And that does lead to sometimes to better funding outcomes too.
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It's not something you can take away because it's a necessary part of a of a much larger infrastructure system.
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And can I just ask you on that point about infrastructure and and you spoke about uh performance?
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Just practically speaking, what kinds of things are we talking about though as a canopy cover?
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What what were the practical things the trees bring to the uh infrastructure of a city?
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So they provide shade and cooling.
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They worked as a part of a water-sensible urban design system, and they filter air.
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Uh so heat, shade, air, water.
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And then you might add habitat for possums.
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And oh genuine habitat, you know, for vertebrates and invertebrates, you know, bees, butterflies, moths, you know, possums, all that all those things.
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Uh and then uh creating habitat for soil, soil biome, uh, fungi, uh, water treatment, um, or you know, a whole range of things.
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Okay.
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It it strikes me already in the the the things we've spoken about that the fundamental point about understanding this is kind of uh like an ecological way of thinking, let's say that as opposed to thinking of design things in silos.
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So, for example, we say um uh uh a tin roof has a particular merit, and its merit is this particular performance thing because it does this with insulation or what I'll share or whatever.
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But we've mentioned how trees and landscape have to be understood on all these different levels.
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There's the infrastructural, the emotional, the symbolic, the intergenerational.
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And um something that one you just mentioned then is I think you both mentioned it in a sense, which is that it yes, it might have this infrastructural role, but it's not just that.
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It has these multiple different roles.
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So this is a long-winded way of basically saying um it's it's it's a mentality that sees all these things as interrelated and it and it's like an ecological way of thinking.
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Would that be a fair way of describing to understand the benefits of using trees and landscape design appropriately?
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Yeah, I think so.
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I think this points to the origins of of landscape architecture and perhaps in the work of Frederick Or Olmsted, you know, who was a farmer, became the landscape architect, and went on to design, you know, Central Park.
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Central Park looks like a big real estate proposition from afar, you know, it's a big green middle of New York City, Manhattan.
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But what's actually in there are all the things we've been talking about.
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It is native re-vegetation, um, it's beautiful grading to achieve water-sensitive outcomes.
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Even things like the granite on the edges of the paths were all water-sensitive gravel pits uh designed to filter and treat water, all of which has been restored.
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So it is landscape if you should should be this beautiful systemic thinking about making the city and the getting the trees right is almost like an indicator of success.
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Something that I would add on here with this layer.
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So we've we've talked a lot about the ecological and environmental infrastructure side of trees.
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So that's quite measurable.
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That's great.
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We're moving to a place where we could also start to measure other things about trees.
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So trees, I also would refer to them as social infrastructure, cultural infrastructure, emotional, psychological.
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But if we look at what trees provide, we're talking about shade and amenity, that then does provide tangible results.
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Providing shade, providing um amenity, increasing dwell times.
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Um really enhancing screenscape, enhancing sense of place.
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Then we move into um restorative qualities of landscapes and views to growing through windows and shorter recovery rates.
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And so there are all those other things that do play into it, and I see those as just as important, but they're not as measurable.
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We move into a place where they are becoming more measurable, which I think is incredible.
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Um, but if we just sort of focus on the environmental, they're really measurable.
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Yeah, that makes sense, and that's perfect because I wanted to actually jump into one of those and ask you specifically about the social, or we might say the political angle or the communal angle, or even a social justice angle with this, because there's a bit of a history here as well of access to green spaces and access to trees being something that people have fought for in certain urban contexts.
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I wonder if you have any thoughts about uh um what we might we might describe it as like uh having a people having a right to trees almost, or at least the right to green spaces.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.839
Um, there was a little bit of history in your piece as well, Daisy.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:28.480
So yeah, w what thoughts do you have around the social dimension of all of these considerations?
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.920
Yeah, it that is a very interesting question.
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:48.799
And I think if we look around our city suburbs, you know, it is the leafy hawthorns and two racks and south yearas that do become a bit of a benchmark for for prestige and and values about around uh urban vegetation.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:59.359
If we then then think about what happens in the outer suburbs and new developments, the the really successful ones are the smart developers doing really great trees.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:09.440
And there are examples from the last 10 to 20 years where the tree the tree crop in the new estates, say in Murder, some of the Myrna estates, I think they were by um Graham Bentley's office.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.359
Um fantastic.
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.559
The trees are making, they're really making those suburbs.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:28.400
Uh and it it is almost um now the the case that the planning mechanism of the structure plan is creating the rights of access to vegetation and trees that that you're you've just raised.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:36.640
And there's a huge responsibility in the design professions to say no, you cannot have narrow streets or driveways and no trees and services.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.240
That is just inappropriate.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.079
Those places are not livable.
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:48.079
They are they will have social cohesion problems, they'll have crime problems and social problems, the kids won't like it.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:55.920
So I think there is a thing about um that just emphasizes just how important trees are to people.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:08.319
And just to add to that, another Olmsted project, the really Riverside project in uh Riverside, Illinois of 1869 was the first subdivision designed by a landscape architect.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:19.359
It's an amazing diagram of swirling streets and open spaces all beautifully connected, like connective tissue of a biological plan.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:21.200
It's a remarkable design.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.680
And that is essentially the benchmark for all suburbs since.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.480
For the good ones, the ones that don't leave out the trees.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:31.680
Yeah.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:44.079
We do quite a lot of work with planned communities and getting a street tree plan really strong right at the start is key to success.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:58.880
And we we get in really early with we do open planning as well, um, but with civil, our civil engineers and having great relationships with civil engineers and saying, actually, can we just push this out a bit?
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.480
Can we push these services here?
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.319
Can we do this to get a connected canopy?
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:03.359
Can we get a double canopy?
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:04.640
Can we get a triple canopy?
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:11.839
And then working out some really strong uh canopy corridors, which also are route corridors through the whole site.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.640
These corridors then become more.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:23.119
So they're then cool walking routes, they're then wayfinding, their sense of orientation, they become part of people's cognitive mapping.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.119
So they're very important in the way that we think about that.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:35.519
In terms of your question of accessibility to nature, I love that that everyone has the right to have access to nature.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:42.319
And I recently read something else about everyone has the right to see the night sky.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.319
And so many people in the world don't ever see the stars.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.839
You think so many people in the world don't ever actually have exposure to nature.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:24:01.680
Does it on a really simple level, does it frustrate you that this has been missed in so much of you know maybe 20th century design wisdom at least?
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:10.240
Is it frustrates him that the on one hand it's a really obvious thing to say that trees have been the central part of human history in almost any human society?
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.920
And how have we got to a point where we have to make an argument again to make that central?
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.279
Does it just simply kind of anger and frustrate you on a certain level?
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.559
Does it hash in you to change it?
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:40.960
I think I think to some degree it does, but I think the mechanisms are in place uh through planning instruments to make sure that at least there's a you know a a flaw under under what's possible uh in the in the structure plans.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.440
Um so that that's really important.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:50.480
But then in look look at the next step, there have been there have been developments where it's almost impossible to plant a tree in your own garden.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:56.559
Like the front garden is taken up with the driveway and some wood chips and a retaining wall or something.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.839
There's no room for trees.
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:06.480
So I think not allowing people to plant trees in their own place because there's just not enough room, that is a significant problem.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.559
Um and you know, it can you know can be looked at through design.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:17.920
It's almost like one might say, you know, there should be a not only minimum building standards, but minimum garden standards.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:29.359
Um to say it's such an important part of of human life that not ha not having access to a garden is almost um a breach of human rights, you know.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:38.480
I know that uh you know, in a lot of the work that we do that is medium density or high density, we do have cumulative and space regulations around that.
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:49.119
So again, 25% cumulative open space, a certain number of trees or canopy cover within that to to provide that access to nature, which is which is really fantastic.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:54.240
So I think that we we are moving in such a strong direction, which is really great.
00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:00.400
And like it's like any of those things that we look back and we could have done differently, that's fine.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:01.920
We're improving things now.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.559
Okay.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:09.039
So let me ask you a bit of to to get a bit more specific about the trees, to put it really simply.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:15.839
Uh I mentioned earlier how it's refreshing to not just talk about landscape in generic terms and think about trees specifically.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:25.519
But then the next level of that is to think about the importance of you know which particular species of a tree that's the right way of putting it, uh, which is really a question about context, right?
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.400
So again, you're the experts on this, not me.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:46.000
Tell me how important it is to not just talk in abstract terms about you know trees are important for X, Y, Z, but how important is it to pick the right tree in the right place for the right um for the people who are going to look after it, for the climate, for the functional needs and the performance.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:48.720
How important are the specifics?
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:51.519
Very important.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.720
Yeah, I think I think obviously extremely important.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:04.720
Um and all of the factors that you mentioned are are definitely factors in the decisions people make, you know, when they're when they when you go to select a tree.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:16.240
Um so it you know, it is really the the um it is really kind of the the magic in the discipline.
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:21.359
You know, the those sort of choices are about trees, about trees and plants.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:34.160
And those who make them um are constantly invested in improving their knowledge, knowing what's available, knowing what's happening in the nurseries, knowing what's happening in the soils, even container design um is important.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.000
Um there's so many factors which are a sort of a lifelong learning process.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:53.839
And just on though, really quickly prior to the same thing, Desi, but um, I mean, you mentioned earlier the distinction between thinking of yourself as a gardener, and that to me immediately brings to mind, tell me if I'm wrong, but it brings to mind more amateur connotations or at least accessibility to everybody.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:54.240
Yeah.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:07.759
So as a follow-up question, I'd like to ask you what what kind of advice do you have to the lay person out there who wants to look after trees in their garden, might not have the time or the knowledge, the expertise of all these different ecological and different species factors.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:22.640
Do you have any advice for you know the the more like the um lay gardener or person designing their own place to reach an appropriate level of knowledge to look after and care for these kinds of things appropriately?
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:30.799
Look, I I started with trial and error, uh, and a lot of error, and then went to the books and then you know started a process of education.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.480
But I think just trying things on.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:43.039
And I think one thing that's wonderful about bunnings is that there are people there who are you know friends that broadcast bunnings no commercial relationship.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.920
But the wonder thing about bunnings is that they are in every suburb, they do have quite a good plant selection.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:54.559
I've actually bought grapevine, musketel grape vines from there because I couldn't find them anywhere else because they have a huge distribution network.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.359
So Bunnings has become a kind of origin that replaces some of the old suburban nurseries.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:05.759
So I think toin to nursery people um can be helpful, but they're all, of course, wanting to sell you something.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.720
Um whereas bunnies don't really care because they're gonna sell it anywhere.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.640
You know, perhaps edit that bit out.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.559
So I think finding access to knowledge is is really good.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:21.119
I think the gardening shows are great, like particularly the the ABC Gardening Australia, is that what it's called?
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.720
Sorry, I've just been on it.
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.599
Cut No, I think the A I think the ABC Gardening Program is an excellent source of knowledge.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.279
So I think that that is right.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:44.559
And I think perhaps Daisy, I'm sure will pick this up, looking around what's doing well nearby, say within the net within a say five kilometres, uh and not imagining that uh something from Brisbane's gonna do well or from Tasmania or something.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:49.200
Looking around and and switching on your skills in observation.
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:50.640
Great, okay.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:56.640
And uh same to you, Daisy, on the question of specifics, how important is it in the design work that you do?
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.039
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.119
I like what you you said there, Michael.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:07.680
Uh I think that yes, you have to think about what tree is right for the place.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:09.839
There are lots of things that play into that.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:16.559
So climate is imperative, and then microclimate is really important too.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:24.160
So we work closely when we're doing integrated design in looking at what microclimates we're creating with the built form and responding to that.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:30.799
So, and then there are all other things like uh wind exposure, salt exposure, the whole lot of things.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:32.960
So you need to get that all sorted first.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.680
And then you think, what do you want this tree to do?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.000
What do you want this tree to be in this place?
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.480
Do you want it to be an evergreen screen?
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:50.559
Do you want it to be a seasonal, deciduous tree that touches, you know, that talks to the seasons and um or do you do you want it to be a feature tree?
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:54.079
Do you want it to be a small tree as a welcome moment by the front door?
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.160
So what is it that you're wanting this tree to do?
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:57.039
Do you want an avenue?
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:57.920
Do you want a procession?
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:58.880
Do you want a landmark?
00:30:59.039 --> 00:30:59.839
All of these things.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.799
So you're thinking about how you want it, what you want it to do in your design, how you want it to work with the built form.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:22.640
And then you jump into your plant brain database, which people laugh at with Latin names, and then you sort of, and Michael said the other day, it's it's almost like your tree vocabulary, which is really important.
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:36.400
So it is this lifelong learning that you have to have this enormous database of trees in your head to remember their mature sizes, um, their tolerances, how they should be maintained.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:42.640
Then you have to look at where you can actually get them, how they should be clipped, do you want raised canopies?
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:46.480
Um, are they going to be able to get them in the quantities that you want?
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.480
Do you want to on-grow them as in contract grow them before you need them?
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:51.759
Then you need lead times.
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.200
So there are so many things with picking the right tree.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:04.160
So for larger projects, when you're looking at getting hundreds and hundreds of the same tree, which I mean, we we do diversity, so we get multiple things.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:10.160
Um Yeah, so there's a lot in there, but I would start with what are you trying to do with this tree?
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:11.920
Does it, do you want it to be a feature?
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.440
Do you want it to be a screen?
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.920
Do you want it to be then evergreen or deciduous?
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.359
There's some key things, then the size and then tolerances.
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:20.480
Great, yeah.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.839
And that all speaks to considerations of time, like you mentioned earlier.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:40.160
One other thing that you mentioned earlier, uh, that I think is related to this as well, is in the design process, factoring in these aspects properly from the beginning, right, as opposed to planting being like an afterthought, which I'm sure we can all agree is a disaster.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:52.240
But can you tell me just a bit more about how important it is to get this kind of long-term thinking, really, about landscape and about trees early in the design process of any given site?
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:54.799
Absolutely.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:02.240
Well, for a tree to survive, and more than that, for a tree to thrive, it really needs the right conditions.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.680
So it needs that soil volume, it needs healthy soils, it needs water.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.599
Uh, so we need to design those things into the built environment.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:25.119
So, for example, we'll come at the in at the start and we know how much canopy we need, we know where we want to get some trees, and so then we'll sit down around a table and we'll say, well, for each tree, we need 12 cubic meters of soil.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:30.559
And if we want all the root systems to be connected, running through, then we need all of those going down the front.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:35.519
So then we'll start to place the built form on the site around those requirements.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:43.440
So if we get to think about a project like that from the start, we get to have a really strong ecological outcome.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:56.400
But if at the end we have 0.5 of a meter along the boundary line, we say, sorry, the best we can do is put up a some kind of metal screening with a a growing climbing plant on it.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.319
So you really can't do much.
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.279
Um, so getting in at the start is really important.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:14.400
And I'd also add that with within planning instruments, this is being legislated now so that we do have to provide certain amount of soil volume and provide those drawings in development applications, which is brilliant.
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:15.280
Right.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:15.599
Okay.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.920
And there's another point that came up in in preparation for this.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:28.800
I I don't think it was in your piece, I can't remember exactly where now, but about this um slightly ambiguous relationship that we might have with trees in a place like Australia in relation to bushfires.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:30.239
Does that ring any bells?
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:31.039
Yes.
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:32.239
Yeah, definitely.
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:42.400
I think um, you know, we talk in positive terms about trees, but there are a lot of people who are a bit afraid of them, particularly people now living on the edge of um rural towns in particular.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:50.480
And we've seen the impact of bushfires in place like Harcourt uh and Nadamark out out in the West, where where trees are a problem uh for people.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.519
Um so I think we need we shouldn't discount that.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:03.760
And I think there is a lot of remnant sort of chainsaw thinking uh amongst a large group of people, you know, we don't we don't want that tree falling on our house or all those things.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.079
So I think they're they're different things to be mindful of.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:15.760
And then trees can be annoying, you know, they lift the pavement, they put leaves in your gutters, they put sticky stuff all over your windscreen, and birds use them to perch, shall we say?
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.000
Um and um so all of those things are you know, sort of negative side of trees.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:27.280
But landscape articles will say, well, that's all fantastic, that's all just producing biological material for composting and to build up the humus layer.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.880
So, you know, it's a glass half-full situation, I think.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.400
It's it's such a good point.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.960
And I think that when you're when in our work, we we need to be thinking about that as well.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:52.800
So planting trees that are fire retardant, uh, where we can, leaving spaces, and there are a whole lot of considerations to think about when we're dealing with areas that do have your high bowel levels, of so bushfire attack levels.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:59.920
So not planting anything um high underneath a tree, not having connected canopies, all of these things, because it is a real risk.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:08.480
Um, you know, with eucalyptus trees, we love mature eucalyptus-related eucalyptus trees, but then sudden limb drop is a real thing.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.239
And so there are it, they are real concerns.
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:25.760
So if we can if we can balance it with removing those things from dwellings, further away from dwellings, and concentrate them in different areas and then plant the appropriate species again closer to dwellings, I think that that helps.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:32.719
These are all factors quite particular to Australia, so we shall shall we say at least.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:40.239
So let me uh bring a final question really to uh I invite you to think uh internationally, but you can also stay in Australia.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:47.599
More on the emotional level again, just to share any any favourite places that you have actually uh around the world.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:37:00.880
It could be um the scale of a whole city that that you think has done a really good job at integrating the green corridors, it could be one particular park with one particular tree, it could be a a natural landscape.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:08.800
But what are some favorite corners of the world in relation to trees and landscape design for you both?
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:10.719
Where do you find inspiration?
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:21.039
Well, perhaps in the most re I don't travel very much, but the most recent visit uh Kath and I had was traveling around, or sailing actually around Greek Islands.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.320
Um, and then uh that was really beautiful.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:32.719
I think I think it was on Aegina, the island of Aguina, we went to visit the ancient olive grove, um, which just happens to have three and a half thousand year old olive trees.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:38.159
They're as kind of as big as a suburban house, uh trunks of you know four or five metres across.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:42.480
So I think going to see the remarkable trees of the world is a really great thing to do.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:50.320
So you know the sequoias of California, uh these ancient olive trees, you know, the date grows, um, southern Spain.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:59.599
Going to find the places where trees are survivors gives us insight into how to make trees ready for the climate that's that's emerging.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:37:59.920
Yeah.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.639
Oh, I think that's that's so good.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:07.840
I think looking at different climates is really interesting to look at at the way that different trees perform.
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:25.440
A I suppose it could this could be anywhere in the world, but when you look at a coastline and you see trees that have been clipped, environmental clipping, winged clipping, and you see the form and how they respond to their environment and how they are so resilient and they are a product of what is around them.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:31.840
I think this interconnected nature of everything, I love when you see a tree responding to its environment like that.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:48.079
I think an example that always, I just always so grateful for, just say traveling so many places, say in France, urban squares where people have had the foresight to plant trees hundreds of years ago.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:56.800
And we now can all benefit walking under almost a complete connected canopy above us with dappled light coming through.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:04.320
And that wouldn't be there if people hadn't done that a couple of hundred years ago, and wouldn't be there if people hadn't looked after them ever since.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.480
So it is this ongoing care.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:15.840
So it's then that we we think about that in the work that we do every day, and if we don't continue to do that, we won't have that succession plan.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:24.559
So it's this constant mode of care, which I think kind of ties back to that being human and what trees can teach us.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.880
Yeah, there's a lovely connection of past, present, the future through the mode of caring for trees.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.280
And well, that's a lovely note to finish on.
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.360
So uh thank you both for joining me today.
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:36.320
Thank you for having us.
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.000
Thank you for listening to this episode of Stories in Design.
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:53.199
Please subscribe and review, and you can find out all about what we do at indesignlive.com.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:06.320
When we're looking at treaties, I think that they're not just environmental or ecological infrastructure.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.119
They're also social and cultural infrastructure.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:13.839
I'd also add that they are emotional and psychological infrastructure as well.
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.399
Daisy and Michael, welcome.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:20.239
Thanks for joining me today in person.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:21.760
Thank you for having us.
00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.039
Oh, delighted, Timothy.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:23.359
Thank you.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:33.439
So before we start talking about landscape and trees proper, I had a bit of feedback recently that people did enjoy the icebreaker question that I sometimes do and sometimes don't.
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:35.039
So I'm going to use it again today.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:40.640
I'll be asking the questions, but let's start by giving you a chance to ask me anything that you like.
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.439
You can have one each, or you can do a joint one, whatever you wish.
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:45.439
Anything that you like.
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:46.159
Okay.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:47.840
Can I ask your question?
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:51.679
Okay, so it's a it's a beautiful autumn afternoon.
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.200
You have a free afternoon.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:54.880
I don't know if that actually exists.
00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:59.759
And you get to choose a tree to go and sit under and read a book.
00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:01.039
Where would that be?
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.719
Which tree would that be?
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:09.120
In terms of which species of tree it would be, I'm hopeless with that kind of thing.
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:33.840
But in terms of the context of where I would go to, uh, I think it would be the thing that immediately comes to mind would be like a single tree in an urban context, you know, so like one particularly big tree that gives you like shade, and it might be in like a little courtyard or an urban park somewhere, as opposed to being in a um maybe it's just because of where I am today, as opposed to thinking about being in like in nature completely.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:42.560
I like the idea of the single tree in a in a relatively treeless landscape, whether that is a desert or whether it's an urban environment.
00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:43.359
Yeah.
00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:45.920
So tree.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:49.680
So I was gonna ask, what what's your earliest memory of a tree?
00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:53.040
Goodness, earliest memory of a tree.
00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:02.640
You know, it would probably be uh the tree in the backyard of of an early childhood home.
00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:15.439
Not my first child home, but an early childhood home in a fairly suburban setting in England, uh in which I had a bit of a I mean, a tree house would be would be um exaggerating it, but a bit of a den within the tree.
00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:16.159
Yeah, very good.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:27.919
So memories of of play in play in kind of shelter and um yeah, even even in a very controlled suburban environment, the ability to like carve out a little nook to flavor your friends.
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:29.599
Place for the imagination, perhaps.
00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:30.159
Exactly.
00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:31.759
Yeah, that's the first thing that pops to mind.
00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:34.319
It's probably not objectively the first memory in there, but that's the point.
00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:36.719
Oh, it's not after the objective.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:38.800
Good, I'm with you.
00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:39.280
Yeah.
00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:42.560
Well, um let me ask you to introduce yourselves properly.
00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.840
Uh tell me who you are, what you do, and where you're based, please.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.039
I'm I'm Daisy Richmond Smith.
00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:54.479
I work at DKO as a senior associate in landscape architecture.
00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:58.400
I lead the landscape architecture division with Sam McCubbin.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:06.400
And I I came on board over three years ago now to really work within the space of integrated design.
00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:11.599
So getting the voice of landscape architecture at the start of the conversation within architecture.
00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:15.759
And I feel very grateful that you know I've landed here.
00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:17.360
It's worked really well.
00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:22.719
Um, that DKO really wants landscape architecture to have that voice at the start of the process.
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:34.000
Um, so my work really sits at the intersection of landscape architecture, um, wayfinding strategy, user experience, environmental psychology.
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.400
It's really about how people feel in space.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.039
And something that really anchors my work is that connection to nature within the built environment.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.639
Okay, wonderful.
00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.080
Uh, thanks, Truthie.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:45.599
Well, my name's Michael Wright.
00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.120
I'm a landscape architect, but I also call myself a gardener.
00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:54.319
I I've also recently become a lawyer and I've won the program Hardquiz on the ABC.
00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:59.680
So I have a bizarre range of interests, including the fate of the A380 aircraft.
00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:11.439
Um, but just for the purpose of this discussion, really, a vital interest in gardening, which I've been working at since about 1985, um, and had lucky to have had some gardens ever since.
00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:16.480
And the gardens really have been the origins of our creative work in landscape architecture.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.160
Okay, I I can't help but just ask quickly on the did you say law?
00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:20.800
Yeah, law.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:24.319
Is there any overlap with the gardening and the landscape with the law?
00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:26.959
There is, yeah, particularly money at practice.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.360
There's just so many areas where the law has been very helpful.
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:41.519
Um the particular areas of copyright and intellectual property, uh, where we often see issues, shall we say, um, with how we manage our work and the work of others and the way our work and others' work is represented.
00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:43.360
So that that's been very helpful.
00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:57.360
Yeah, I suppose there are some differences there between the the the built environment, um, at least in terms of you know, um man-made built architectural forms that are maybe easier to copyright or quantify in some sense.
00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:05.360
Whereas does landscape bleed a little bit more into um difficulties with image rights and ownership and that kind of thing?
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.360
Yeah, that it's a very good question.
00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:19.839
And um, it's unclear whether works of landscape architecture can be subject to copyright, because they they aren't fixed in material form in the way a building or artwork or image or a photograph is.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:31.519
And there is more, you know, case law to suggest that copyright might be hard to substantiate in landscape in the built work, but certainly in our drawings and our images and so on.
00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:39.519
You know, it's it's unquestionable what copyright would uh subsist the moment the works are produced or okay, very interesting.
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:41.839
I wasn't expecting that curveball, but we might even watch it.
00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:44.160
That's a very long discussion, believe me.
00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:53.920
Yeah, well, I mean, we're here to talk about landscape design, landscape architecture in general, but but more specifically about trees today or and the tree, hence your early questions.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:01.519
Daisy, I might start with the piece that you wrote not too long ago that was quite specifically about trees.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.720
Uh there are the I mean there's so much to go into here, right?
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:10.399
But I might just start by throwing a quote back at you from that piece and we'll use that as a way into the discussion.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.279
So, quote, uh in an anxious age, trees offer more than shade.
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.240
They offer calm, clarity, perspective.
00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:22.720
They help us remember what it feels like to breathe deeply.
00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:26.879
Let's just start with some reflections on the themes raised there.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:28.959
Thank you.
00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:34.560
I think that's a really grounding part of the piece that I wrote.
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:48.800
Um and really it it gets to the heart of it that I think in this world that we're living in, that at the moment feels particularly heavy, we want to connect to something greater than ourselves.
00:06:49.759 --> 00:07:04.800
And in whatever form that takes, I think the tree is almost a a uniting anchor, emotional, psychological, even spiritual anchor that we can hold to.
00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:15.439
So I think that it is, I don't know if it's a unique, unique element, but it certainly for me is very important.
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:23.360
And in the work that we do, I see it as a really important piece in in providing something in this crazy world.
00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:31.439
And and what comes to mind when you hear that quote about the the anxious age contrasted with the with the tree, really?
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:37.279
Well, I think I think really trees connect us to the origins of our humanity in a way.
00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.560
Like trees and people have arisen together.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:42.480
You know, there's cultivation of the tree.
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:48.079
We rely on trees intimately uh for food, shelter, you know, products, all of those things.
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:56.319
So I think people perhaps might unconsciously um attach to trees in a way that talks to that.
00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.519
We are an early origin of what's important about trees.
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:07.279
As, you know, obviously much more than you know, conventional discourse about forestry and assets and all those sort of things.
00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.279
You know, it is a sort of profound thing.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:15.680
I think it's possibly why people get so upset when trees are destroyed, you know, for whatever reason.
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:33.519
It is a refreshing way into this kind of topic to not just think about landscape in general or quote-unquote nature or uh greening something, and to think a little bit more specifically about the tree as the kind of um central form of that.
00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:41.440
I think what what helps me to think about it, and this definitely comes out of your piece, Daisy, is is what like what it's contrasted against.
00:08:41.600 --> 00:09:00.320
So the things that came through when I read it were kind of slowness, um all those layers of importance that you just mentioned, like the in the environmental, I think the emotional, the symbolic, um, and then the sense it we I think at one point you contrasted it with density, data, and deadlines.
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:08.240
So perhaps you could both speak about what do you see this idea of the tree as contrasted with?
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:12.000
Uh what is the anxious age that you're talking about in that other quote?
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:18.080
So I think that thinking about in time is really important.
00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:34.480
And that sort of, you know, that deadlines data, that fast-paced where so and living in living in sort of a fast sitting working hard, all this, it's it's almost we we we get ourselves stuck in this microcosm of doing, producing, fast-paced.
00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.919
Whereas, and it's it's almost like a short-term thinking as well.
00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:53.600
Whereas the tree grounds us in and zoom for me, zooms us out um in a longer-term perspective, thinking about um intergenerational planning, intergenerational design, how a tree grows.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:10:04.879
It's a very different system to thinking about these short-term things and uh the systems it plays into and the time that's required.
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.440
Yeah, I think the time is clearly a really important thing that comes through.
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.320
And also uh care on that as well.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:18.399
Like does that element of care play into this um anti-short-termism as well?
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:24.000
Because to curve for something like a tree, you don't really get short-term benefits in a sense.
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:25.840
It's about thinking much longer term.
00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:26.799
Absolutely.
00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:43.039
Absolutely, thinking much longer term, uh, almost having faith in what the tree will become, knowing that you don't need instant, well, you know, instant measures, instant gratification, but there is this sort of patience and faith in growing something bigger than yourself.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:50.080
And what comes to your mind in terms of deadlines and data and all that kind of business?
00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:58.960
Um, looking increasingly, you know, there's an appetite for speed, um, and that's not really, you know, a great thing for design.
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:09.039
You know, design should be about careful study, you know, as opposed to the rushed-out design competition, which is the reverse about, you know, that design does require study.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:25.840
And in some ways, that in landscape that, you know, that's analogous to the way in which a tree commences life, you know, the journey of an idea, you know, the growing through maturity, uh, and then the persistence uh with age, which is what really good design does.
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.840
You know, good design are the things that have lasted long a long time.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:35.440
Uh, and that includes great buildings and also great trees.
00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:40.960
And here I'm always reminded of the big fig on to main road that was planted in about 1880.
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.279
It's up to 145 years.
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.240
It was there when I went to school in 1974.
00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:48.559
Um, and it's got better and better and better.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.279
It's been looked after, properly looked after by the city.
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:52.480
It's got space.
00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.960
Um, it's probably been there in another hundred years.
00:11:55.200 --> 00:12:06.399
Uh, these are amazing kind of civic monuments uh that the trees have become and that you know and they span generations, you know, we're up to seven generations in that tree alone.
00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:14.320
Yeah, well, and we might come back to some more of the uh emotional or symbolic uh importances, important layers with that.
00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:19.120
But can I ask you to tell me about this idea of uh trees as infrastructure?
00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.000
We were having a conversation about this other day.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.600
Yeah, absolutely unmeted.
00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:32.639
Um uh infrastructure, so I think that they do perform like infrastructure performs.
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.720
And if we look at the definition of infrastructure, I think that they can be classified as that.
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:42.799
But to name a tree as just infrastructure, I think is is not the right way to go about it.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:45.279
I think of them as so much more.
00:12:45.679 --> 00:13:02.960
But I think that if we we focus on that infrastructure side of it and we say, yes, they do perform essential services for society, then we start to think about what they need to then do that performance.
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.039
So we then start to look at what systems they need, what systems they provide.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:15.919
So looking at um root systems, um, required, required soil volumes, water, light, etc.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:22.080
So we start to look at those things rather than just having sort of putting them in where they might not actually perform.
00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.600
So it changes the way that we think about putting them into space.
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:32.159
So I think in short, yes, they do perform and they can be classified as infrastructure, green infrastructure, as we all know.
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.000
Um, but they are so much more.
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:39.840
And that takes us into the territory of quantifiable, measurable things for designers to work with, right?
00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:47.600
Such as if you're, you know, a particular site that you're working with, you might have to have a certain uh meet a certain drainage criteria.
00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.279
I don't know exactly the terms you'd use for this.
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:49.519
Yeah.
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:49.679
Yeah.
00:13:49.840 --> 00:14:04.320
But is that right that it takes you into that territory of, as I said, we've we've got the more emotional, intangible stuff that we mentioned earlier, but it also has these practical dimensions that designers can and I'm sure you think must work around.
00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:05.200
Yes, absolutely.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:16.639
And really, we're moving in such a great way where we have planning controls that um, you know, where we're looking towards UN City of Melbourne, we're looking towards 40% canopy cover, which is enormous from 22, I believe.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:21.519
Uh, and a lot of in Victoria, New South Wales, Cleveland, that's a bit of a benchmark.
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:27.440
We're looking at about 25% canopy cover, um, depending on a few things.
00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.080
Um, but that's, you know, we're so we're we're looking for that.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:36.799
And then we kind of work backwards and go, okay, if we need that much canopy cover, what trees do we need then to provide that canopy cover?
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.200
And then what soil do we actually need to provide and sustain those trees?
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.600
So we're sort of working backwards like that.
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:51.840
The tree almost works in the other way, going from roots to crown rather than crown to roots, which I find interesting.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.360
But it doesn't matter really.
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:56.960
We we we get the same outcome and it works for everything.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.039
And Michael might be able to add to this.
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:00.799
I'll try.
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:06.639
Yeah, I mean, I think trees are part of a, can be part of the infrastructure system.
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:28.720
And that those sort of systems are where landscape architecture design has gained a fair bit of traction, you know, in last perhaps the last 20 years, where, you know, things like water-sensitive projects become a necessary part of engineering or a necessary part of an apartment podium, that sort of thing, where the the trees are actually performing a very specific function.
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:32.399
And that does lead to sometimes to better funding outcomes too.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:37.600
It's not something you can take away because it's a necessary part of a of a much larger infrastructure system.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:43.200
And can I just ask you on that point about infrastructure and and you spoke about uh performance?
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.399
Just practically speaking, what kinds of things are we talking about though as a canopy cover?
00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:54.960
What what were the practical things the trees bring to the uh infrastructure of a city?
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.480
So they provide shade and cooling.
00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:05.759
They worked as a part of a water-sensible urban design system, and they filter air.
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.559
Uh so heat, shade, air, water.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.159
And then you might add habitat for possums.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:24.960
And oh genuine habitat, you know, for vertebrates and invertebrates, you know, bees, butterflies, moths, you know, possums, all that all those things.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:36.559
Uh and then uh creating habitat for soil, soil biome, uh, fungi, uh, water treatment, um, or you know, a whole range of things.
00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:37.440
Okay.
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:54.159
It it strikes me already in the the the things we've spoken about that the fundamental point about understanding this is kind of uh like an ecological way of thinking, let's say that as opposed to thinking of design things in silos.
00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:05.359
So, for example, we say um uh uh a tin roof has a particular merit, and its merit is this particular performance thing because it does this with insulation or what I'll share or whatever.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:10.720
But we've mentioned how trees and landscape have to be understood on all these different levels.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.680
There's the infrastructural, the emotional, the symbolic, the intergenerational.
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:25.599
And um something that one you just mentioned then is I think you both mentioned it in a sense, which is that it yes, it might have this infrastructural role, but it's not just that.
00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.920
It has these multiple different roles.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:38.319
So this is a long-winded way of basically saying um it's it's it's a mentality that sees all these things as interrelated and it and it's like an ecological way of thinking.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:44.880
Would that be a fair way of describing to understand the benefits of using trees and landscape design appropriately?
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:45.839
Yeah, I think so.
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:57.039
I think this points to the origins of of landscape architecture and perhaps in the work of Frederick Or Olmsted, you know, who was a farmer, became the landscape architect, and went on to design, you know, Central Park.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:04.480
Central Park looks like a big real estate proposition from afar, you know, it's a big green middle of New York City, Manhattan.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.319
But what's actually in there are all the things we've been talking about.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.519
It is native re-vegetation, um, it's beautiful grading to achieve water-sensitive outcomes.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:22.559
Even things like the granite on the edges of the paths were all water-sensitive gravel pits uh designed to filter and treat water, all of which has been restored.
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:35.599
So it is landscape if you should should be this beautiful systemic thinking about making the city and the getting the trees right is almost like an indicator of success.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.400
Something that I would add on here with this layer.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:47.200
So we've we've talked a lot about the ecological and environmental infrastructure side of trees.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.880
So that's quite measurable.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:49.920
That's great.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:55.119
We're moving to a place where we could also start to measure other things about trees.
00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:04.799
So trees, I also would refer to them as social infrastructure, cultural infrastructure, emotional, psychological.
00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:12.240
But if we look at what trees provide, we're talking about shade and amenity, that then does provide tangible results.
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:17.440
Providing shade, providing um amenity, increasing dwell times.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:21.359
Um really enhancing screenscape, enhancing sense of place.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:29.039
Then we move into um restorative qualities of landscapes and views to growing through windows and shorter recovery rates.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:35.519
And so there are all those other things that do play into it, and I see those as just as important, but they're not as measurable.
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:40.079
We move into a place where they are becoming more measurable, which I think is incredible.
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:44.960
Um, but if we just sort of focus on the environmental, they're really measurable.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:20:06.160
Yeah, that makes sense, and that's perfect because I wanted to actually jump into one of those and ask you specifically about the social, or we might say the political angle or the communal angle, or even a social justice angle with this, because there's a bit of a history here as well of access to green spaces and access to trees being something that people have fought for in certain urban contexts.
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:18.079
I wonder if you have any thoughts about uh um what we might we might describe it as like uh having a people having a right to trees almost, or at least the right to green spaces.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.839
Um, there was a little bit of history in your piece as well, Daisy.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:28.480
So yeah, w what thoughts do you have around the social dimension of all of these considerations?
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.920
Yeah, it that is a very interesting question.
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:48.799
And I think if we look around our city suburbs, you know, it is the leafy hawthorns and two racks and south yearas that do become a bit of a benchmark for for prestige and and values about around uh urban vegetation.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:59.359
If we then then think about what happens in the outer suburbs and new developments, the the really successful ones are the smart developers doing really great trees.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:09.440
And there are examples from the last 10 to 20 years where the tree the tree crop in the new estates, say in Murder, some of the Myrna estates, I think they were by um Graham Bentley's office.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.359
Um fantastic.
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.559
The trees are making, they're really making those suburbs.
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:28.400
Uh and it it is almost um now the the case that the planning mechanism of the structure plan is creating the rights of access to vegetation and trees that that you're you've just raised.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:36.640
And there's a huge responsibility in the design professions to say no, you cannot have narrow streets or driveways and no trees and services.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.240
That is just inappropriate.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.079
Those places are not livable.
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:48.079
They are they will have social cohesion problems, they'll have crime problems and social problems, the kids won't like it.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:55.920
So I think there is a thing about um that just emphasizes just how important trees are to people.
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:08.319
And just to add to that, another Olmsted project, the really Riverside project in uh Riverside, Illinois of 1869 was the first subdivision designed by a landscape architect.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:19.359
It's an amazing diagram of swirling streets and open spaces all beautifully connected, like connective tissue of a biological plan.
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:21.200
It's a remarkable design.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.680
And that is essentially the benchmark for all suburbs since.
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.480
For the good ones, the ones that don't leave out the trees.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:31.680
Yeah.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:44.079
We do quite a lot of work with planned communities and getting a street tree plan really strong right at the start is key to success.
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:58.880
And we we get in really early with we do open planning as well, um, but with civil, our civil engineers and having great relationships with civil engineers and saying, actually, can we just push this out a bit?
00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:00.480
Can we push these services here?
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.319
Can we do this to get a connected canopy?
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:03.359
Can we get a double canopy?
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:04.640
Can we get a triple canopy?
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:11.839
And then working out some really strong uh canopy corridors, which also are route corridors through the whole site.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:14.640
These corridors then become more.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:23.119
So they're then cool walking routes, they're then wayfinding, their sense of orientation, they become part of people's cognitive mapping.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.119
So they're very important in the way that we think about that.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:35.519
In terms of your question of accessibility to nature, I love that that everyone has the right to have access to nature.
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:42.319
And I recently read something else about everyone has the right to see the night sky.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.319
And so many people in the world don't ever see the stars.
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.839
You think so many people in the world don't ever actually have exposure to nature.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:24:01.680
Does it on a really simple level, does it frustrate you that this has been missed in so much of you know maybe 20th century design wisdom at least?
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:10.240
Is it frustrates him that the on one hand it's a really obvious thing to say that trees have been the central part of human history in almost any human society?
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.920
And how have we got to a point where we have to make an argument again to make that central?
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.279
Does it just simply kind of anger and frustrate you on a certain level?
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.559
Does it hash in you to change it?
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:40.960
I think I think to some degree it does, but I think the mechanisms are in place uh through planning instruments to make sure that at least there's a you know a a flaw under under what's possible uh in the in the structure plans.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.440
Um so that that's really important.
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:50.480
But then in look look at the next step, there have been there have been developments where it's almost impossible to plant a tree in your own garden.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:56.559
Like the front garden is taken up with the driveway and some wood chips and a retaining wall or something.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.839
There's no room for trees.
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:06.480
So I think not allowing people to plant trees in their own place because there's just not enough room, that is a significant problem.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.559
Um and you know, it can you know can be looked at through design.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:17.920
It's almost like one might say, you know, there should be a not only minimum building standards, but minimum garden standards.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:29.359
Um to say it's such an important part of of human life that not ha not having access to a garden is almost um a breach of human rights, you know.
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:38.480
I know that uh you know, in a lot of the work that we do that is medium density or high density, we do have cumulative and space regulations around that.
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:49.119
So again, 25% cumulative open space, a certain number of trees or canopy cover within that to to provide that access to nature, which is which is really fantastic.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:54.240
So I think that we we are moving in such a strong direction, which is really great.
00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:00.400
And like it's like any of those things that we look back and we could have done differently, that's fine.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:01.920
We're improving things now.
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.559
Okay.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:09.039
So let me ask you a bit of to to get a bit more specific about the trees, to put it really simply.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:15.839
Uh I mentioned earlier how it's refreshing to not just talk about landscape in generic terms and think about trees specifically.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:25.519
But then the next level of that is to think about the importance of you know which particular species of a tree that's the right way of putting it, uh, which is really a question about context, right?
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.400
So again, you're the experts on this, not me.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:46.000
Tell me how important it is to not just talk in abstract terms about you know trees are important for X, Y, Z, but how important is it to pick the right tree in the right place for the right um for the people who are going to look after it, for the climate, for the functional needs and the performance.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:48.720
How important are the specifics?
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:51.519
Very important.
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.720
Yeah, I think I think obviously extremely important.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:04.720
Um and all of the factors that you mentioned are are definitely factors in the decisions people make, you know, when they're when they when you go to select a tree.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:16.240
Um so it you know, it is really the the um it is really kind of the the magic in the discipline.
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:21.359
You know, the those sort of choices are about trees, about trees and plants.
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:34.160
And those who make them um are constantly invested in improving their knowledge, knowing what's available, knowing what's happening in the nurseries, knowing what's happening in the soils, even container design um is important.
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.000
Um there's so many factors which are a sort of a lifelong learning process.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:53.839
And just on though, really quickly prior to the same thing, Desi, but um, I mean, you mentioned earlier the distinction between thinking of yourself as a gardener, and that to me immediately brings to mind, tell me if I'm wrong, but it brings to mind more amateur connotations or at least accessibility to everybody.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:54.240
Yeah.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:07.759
So as a follow-up question, I'd like to ask you what what kind of advice do you have to the lay person out there who wants to look after trees in their garden, might not have the time or the knowledge, the expertise of all these different ecological and different species factors.
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:22.640
Do you have any advice for you know the the more like the um lay gardener or person designing their own place to reach an appropriate level of knowledge to look after and care for these kinds of things appropriately?
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:30.799
Look, I I started with trial and error, uh, and a lot of error, and then went to the books and then you know started a process of education.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.480
But I think just trying things on.
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:43.039
And I think one thing that's wonderful about bunnings is that there are people there who are you know friends that broadcast bunnings no commercial relationship.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.920
But the wonder thing about bunnings is that they are in every suburb, they do have quite a good plant selection.
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:54.559
I've actually bought grapevine, musketel grape vines from there because I couldn't find them anywhere else because they have a huge distribution network.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.359
So Bunnings has become a kind of origin that replaces some of the old suburban nurseries.
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:05.759
So I think toin to nursery people um can be helpful, but they're all, of course, wanting to sell you something.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.720
Um whereas bunnies don't really care because they're gonna sell it anywhere.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.640
You know, perhaps edit that bit out.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.559
So I think finding access to knowledge is is really good.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:21.119
I think the gardening shows are great, like particularly the the ABC Gardening Australia, is that what it's called?
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.720
Sorry, I've just been on it.
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:29.599
Cut No, I think the A I think the ABC Gardening Program is an excellent source of knowledge.
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.279
So I think that that is right.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:44.559
And I think perhaps Daisy, I'm sure will pick this up, looking around what's doing well nearby, say within the net within a say five kilometres, uh and not imagining that uh something from Brisbane's gonna do well or from Tasmania or something.
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:49.200
Looking around and and switching on your skills in observation.
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:50.640
Great, okay.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:56.640
And uh same to you, Daisy, on the question of specifics, how important is it in the design work that you do?
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.039
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.119
I like what you you said there, Michael.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:07.680
Uh I think that yes, you have to think about what tree is right for the place.
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:09.839
There are lots of things that play into that.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:16.559
So climate is imperative, and then microclimate is really important too.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:24.160
So we work closely when we're doing integrated design in looking at what microclimates we're creating with the built form and responding to that.
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:30.799
So, and then there are all other things like uh wind exposure, salt exposure, the whole lot of things.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:32.960
So you need to get that all sorted first.
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.680
And then you think, what do you want this tree to do?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.000
What do you want this tree to be in this place?
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.480
Do you want it to be an evergreen screen?
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:50.559
Do you want it to be a seasonal, deciduous tree that touches, you know, that talks to the seasons and um or do you do you want it to be a feature tree?
00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:54.079
Do you want it to be a small tree as a welcome moment by the front door?
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.160
So what is it that you're wanting this tree to do?
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:57.039
Do you want an avenue?
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:57.920
Do you want a procession?
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:58.880
Do you want a landmark?
00:30:59.039 --> 00:30:59.839
All of these things.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.799
So you're thinking about how you want it, what you want it to do in your design, how you want it to work with the built form.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:22.640
And then you jump into your plant brain database, which people laugh at with Latin names, and then you sort of, and Michael said the other day, it's it's almost like your tree vocabulary, which is really important.
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:36.400
So it is this lifelong learning that you have to have this enormous database of trees in your head to remember their mature sizes, um, their tolerances, how they should be maintained.
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:42.640
Then you have to look at where you can actually get them, how they should be clipped, do you want raised canopies?
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:46.480
Um, are they going to be able to get them in the quantities that you want?
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:50.480
Do you want to on-grow them as in contract grow them before you need them?
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:51.759
Then you need lead times.
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.200
So there are so many things with picking the right tree.
00:31:55.359 --> 00:32:04.160
So for larger projects, when you're looking at getting hundreds and hundreds of the same tree, which I mean, we we do diversity, so we get multiple things.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:10.160
Um Yeah, so there's a lot in there, but I would start with what are you trying to do with this tree?
00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:11.920
Does it, do you want it to be a feature?
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.440
Do you want it to be a screen?
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.920
Do you want it to be then evergreen or deciduous?
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.359
There's some key things, then the size and then tolerances.
00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:20.480
Great, yeah.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.839
And that all speaks to considerations of time, like you mentioned earlier.
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:40.160
One other thing that you mentioned earlier, uh, that I think is related to this as well, is in the design process, factoring in these aspects properly from the beginning, right, as opposed to planting being like an afterthought, which I'm sure we can all agree is a disaster.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:52.240
But can you tell me just a bit more about how important it is to get this kind of long-term thinking, really, about landscape and about trees early in the design process of any given site?
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:54.799
Absolutely.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:02.240
Well, for a tree to survive, and more than that, for a tree to thrive, it really needs the right conditions.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.680
So it needs that soil volume, it needs healthy soils, it needs water.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.599
Uh, so we need to design those things into the built environment.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:25.119
So, for example, we'll come at the in at the start and we know how much canopy we need, we know where we want to get some trees, and so then we'll sit down around a table and we'll say, well, for each tree, we need 12 cubic meters of soil.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:30.559
And if we want all the root systems to be connected, running through, then we need all of those going down the front.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:35.519
So then we'll start to place the built form on the site around those requirements.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:43.440
So if we get to think about a project like that from the start, we get to have a really strong ecological outcome.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:56.400
But if at the end we have 0.5 of a meter along the boundary line, we say, sorry, the best we can do is put up a some kind of metal screening with a a growing climbing plant on it.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.319
So you really can't do much.
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.279
Um, so getting in at the start is really important.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:14.400
And I'd also add that with within planning instruments, this is being legislated now so that we do have to provide certain amount of soil volume and provide those drawings in development applications, which is brilliant.
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:15.280
Right.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:15.599
Okay.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:19.920
And there's another point that came up in in preparation for this.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:28.800
I I don't think it was in your piece, I can't remember exactly where now, but about this um slightly ambiguous relationship that we might have with trees in a place like Australia in relation to bushfires.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:30.239
Does that ring any bells?
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:31.039
Yes.
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:32.239
Yeah, definitely.
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:42.400
I think um, you know, we talk in positive terms about trees, but there are a lot of people who are a bit afraid of them, particularly people now living on the edge of um rural towns in particular.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:50.480
And we've seen the impact of bushfires in place like Harcourt uh and Nadamark out out in the West, where where trees are a problem uh for people.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.519
Um so I think we need we shouldn't discount that.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:03.760
And I think there is a lot of remnant sort of chainsaw thinking uh amongst a large group of people, you know, we don't we don't want that tree falling on our house or all those things.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.079
So I think they're they're different things to be mindful of.
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:15.760
And then trees can be annoying, you know, they lift the pavement, they put leaves in your gutters, they put sticky stuff all over your windscreen, and birds use them to perch, shall we say?
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.000
Um and um so all of those things are you know, sort of negative side of trees.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:27.280
But landscape articles will say, well, that's all fantastic, that's all just producing biological material for composting and to build up the humus layer.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.880
So, you know, it's a glass half-full situation, I think.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.400
It's it's such a good point.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.960
And I think that when you're when in our work, we we need to be thinking about that as well.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:52.800
So planting trees that are fire retardant, uh, where we can, leaving spaces, and there are a whole lot of considerations to think about when we're dealing with areas that do have your high bowel levels, of so bushfire attack levels.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:59.920
So not planting anything um high underneath a tree, not having connected canopies, all of these things, because it is a real risk.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:08.480
Um, you know, with eucalyptus trees, we love mature eucalyptus-related eucalyptus trees, but then sudden limb drop is a real thing.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:12.239
And so there are it, they are real concerns.
00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:25.760
So if we can if we can balance it with removing those things from dwellings, further away from dwellings, and concentrate them in different areas and then plant the appropriate species again closer to dwellings, I think that that helps.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:32.719
These are all factors quite particular to Australia, so we shall shall we say at least.
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:40.239
So let me uh bring a final question really to uh I invite you to think uh internationally, but you can also stay in Australia.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:47.599
More on the emotional level again, just to share any any favourite places that you have actually uh around the world.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:37:00.880
It could be um the scale of a whole city that that you think has done a really good job at integrating the green corridors, it could be one particular park with one particular tree, it could be a a natural landscape.
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:08.800
But what are some favorite corners of the world in relation to trees and landscape design for you both?
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:10.719
Where do you find inspiration?
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:21.039
Well, perhaps in the most re I don't travel very much, but the most recent visit uh Kath and I had was traveling around, or sailing actually around Greek Islands.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.320
Um, and then uh that was really beautiful.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:32.719
I think I think it was on Aegina, the island of Aguina, we went to visit the ancient olive grove, um, which just happens to have three and a half thousand year old olive trees.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:38.159
They're as kind of as big as a suburban house, uh trunks of you know four or five metres across.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:42.480
So I think going to see the remarkable trees of the world is a really great thing to do.
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:50.320
So you know the sequoias of California, uh these ancient olive trees, you know, the date grows, um, southern Spain.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:59.599
Going to find the places where trees are survivors gives us insight into how to make trees ready for the climate that's that's emerging.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:37:59.920
Yeah.
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.639
Oh, I think that's that's so good.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:07.840
I think looking at different climates is really interesting to look at at the way that different trees perform.
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:25.440
A I suppose it could this could be anywhere in the world, but when you look at a coastline and you see trees that have been clipped, environmental clipping, winged clipping, and you see the form and how they respond to their environment and how they are so resilient and they are a product of what is around them.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:31.840
I think this interconnected nature of everything, I love when you see a tree responding to its environment like that.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:48.079
I think an example that always, I just always so grateful for, just say traveling so many places, say in France, urban squares where people have had the foresight to plant trees hundreds of years ago.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:56.800
And we now can all benefit walking under almost a complete connected canopy above us with dappled light coming through.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:04.320
And that wouldn't be there if people hadn't done that a couple of hundred years ago, and wouldn't be there if people hadn't looked after them ever since.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.480
So it is this ongoing care.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:15.840
So it's then that we we think about that in the work that we do every day, and if we don't continue to do that, we won't have that succession plan.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:24.559
So it's this constant mode of care, which I think kind of ties back to that being human and what trees can teach us.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.880
Yeah, there's a lovely connection of past, present, the future through the mode of caring for trees.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.280
And well, that's a lovely note to finish on.
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.360
So uh thank you both for joining me today.
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:36.320
Thank you for having us.
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.000
Thank you for listening to this episode of Stories in Design.
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:53.199
Please subscribe and review, and you can find out all about what we do at indesignlive.com.
