Math to Mind: Drs. Breakspear & Hermes on Careers, Community and Neuroscience

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Welcome back to STEIN Fireside Chats from
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an undisclosed location
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in Rochester, Minnesota.
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What we'd like to talk about this time is
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a life in neuroscience
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and basically the culture
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of neuroscience sort of outside of the
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science of neuroscience.
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Even though these things can't really be
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disentangled, I think that
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it's useful to hear about the
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different roles that people have and how
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their lives have been shaped by it.
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Today we have two guests.
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We have Dr. Dora Hermes and
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we have Dr. Michael Brakespear.
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Dr. Hermes is here at Mayo Clinic and Dr.
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Brakespear is in Newcastle in Australia.
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And well, why don't actually
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you start us off Dr. Hermes?
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How did science start for you?
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How did science start for me?
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I started actually, I mean the first
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project that I did was
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actually very close to where
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you are in New Zealand.
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So for my bachelor's project
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I actually visited Auckland.
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I visited a lab there doing and I got to
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measure EEG signals for the
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first time which I thought
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was very exciting just to be able to
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measure directly from
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people's brains and then see
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how attention kind of works.
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So that's where it started.
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That's the first time
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you met a scientist?
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I mean that's the first time that I got
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to collect data which I
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think is important for
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science.
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I mean that's like when I felt I was
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actually doing science myself.
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Yeah, were there scientists in the town
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growing up that you met or
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did you ever watch scientific
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programs?
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I mean my dad was a scientist.
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But that's different.
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You kind of try to, as a teenager I just
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remember not wanting to
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do something that my father
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also did but then he's actually an
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auditory neuroscientist.
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So we're actually much
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closer than I thought.
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And what about your father's father?
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Yeah he was also a scientist.
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But that's different, right?
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I mean it's like yeah, I think doing
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science yourself versus
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seeing other people do that.
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And your mom?
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Is she a communications major?
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Well she's a biologist.
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Do you have any siblings?
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Yeah he's a...
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So you're from a family of genetically
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inherited scientists.
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Yes, yeah my brother is a physicist.
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But despite of that you still took your
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own extremely unique
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path into science and at
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times didn't think
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you'd be a scientist at all.
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Did you entertain other potential?
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So I kind of stumbled my way into science
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because I started out
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in high school really.
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Neuroscience was not
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as big of a field yet.
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And so I really didn't know that there
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were mathematical ways
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to describe brain signals
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or things like memory
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and thought and attention.
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And so I started doing math
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full time in the Netherlands.
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You can only choose a major and that's
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what you also only do
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when you go to college.
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So I started doing math.
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And then taking more courses we figured
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out that you could
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also learn about dynamical
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systems which was so fascinating that you
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could actually
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describe biological systems
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using math.
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And so doing pure theoretical math was
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very dry to me as I
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switched to doing psychology
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as a major.
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But I had two years of underground math.
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That's an important foundation.
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Yeah so I'm really happy that I took that
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path but it's kind of a roundabout way to
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go into neuroscience.
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But I wish I mean I wouldn't have done it
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any differently
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because I think the math is
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like very important of
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course as you think about it.
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You come from a physics
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background so I guess.
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Well math before physics in my case too.
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We heard from you on a different episode
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about sort of how you
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grew up but maybe you could
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tell us a little more about that.
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So before you got to university what was
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your exposure to science?
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Well my family weren't scientists so I
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come from a large Catholic
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family in Sydney Australia
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and kind of full of
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quite eccentric individuals.
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Then I grew up for a period of time in
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Canberra with my mum and my
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sisters so a single parent
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sort of life.
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And there was I think a formative
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politician called Gough
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Whitlin who came to power and
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sort of socialized or
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nationalized a lot of things.
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Territory education became
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free, public health became free.
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Importantly for my mum he revolutionized
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the family court system.
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So suddenly there was an opportunity for
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young children of single
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parent families to sort
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of dream big.
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But I'll say in Canberra as well which
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there was also a period
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of time in the 70s and 80s
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sort of being a bit of a gothic.
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And a lot of my clothes came from the
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second hand clothing
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form of the university where
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my mum was a clerk.
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So I used to lug around in the window in
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this oversized duffel coat you know.
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At that time thinking I was going to be a
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literary figure because
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I had the right duffel
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coat and I loved English.
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What were some of your
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favourite books then?
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Look my sister, older sister used to give
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me Kurt Vonnegut books.
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So I used to read a lot of Kurt Vonnegut
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books which is not bad
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for a teenager living in
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Canberra and after Kurt Vonnegut there
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was, what according to
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Garp who was that writer?
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He was a New England
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American author actually.
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An embarrassment that I don't remember.
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Do you?
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No I don't remember.
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I'd like to say there were more sort of
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classic writers that
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I was influenced with.
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It was basically the world according to
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Garp and Kurt Vonnegut
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and other books fed to me
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by my sister.
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And then you know mathematics and physics
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and chemistry were
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also very big at school.
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I spoke about before how we had a
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computing lab and my mum
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very much valued the sort of
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aptitude that I was showing in
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mathematics and really encouraged that.
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And thought that was a
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virtue so I think that was good.
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But it was a very sort of eclectic sort
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of journey to the university.
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But my other sister about my age and some
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of my cousins were the
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first to go to university
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from this sort of post war large
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distributed Catholic family.
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And that reflects all the opportunities
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and that also reflects
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what government can do
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when it values you know the social good.
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And so when I went to university it was
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full of sort of eclectic
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disheveled public school
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young people like me and not just
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privileged sort of private school
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educated young people.
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And yes we had a lot of fun.
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And before we didn't ask
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you were at Sydney University?
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I went to Sydney University yeah.
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So when I think of goth I think of you
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know I think of the
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trench coat sort of dark and
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I think of music you
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know probably the cure.
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The cure were huge back then.
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Bauhaus that kind of thing.
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This is even a goth in Canberra.
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Well this is the early 80s
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this is probably pre cure.
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But I dispensed with my goth.
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I envisioned you in like because that was
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the neon era of surfing right.
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Which is you can't get
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you can't get further.
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The duffel coat only lasted for a couple
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of years and then the
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chameleon like her person
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of it if Michael Brakes did morphed into
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sort of more of a hippie and then more of
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a sort of I don't know earnest young
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medical student perhaps.
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Yeah sure.
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So how did you decide
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to do medical school?
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Yeah I mean in the last years of high
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school we moved back to
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Sydney and I went to a sort
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of more selective high school and then I
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don't know really being
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a young person it became
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apparent that I could get into medicine
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and it looked like I
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think the good aspect of
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it is that you work with people you could
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maybe make people
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better and that appealed
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to me.
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Mathematics whilst sort of intellectually
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appealing wasn't clear what I would do as
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a mathematician.
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So the two were sort of at some stage in
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competition with each other and I
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declared to mum that
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I think now I'm going to do medicine and
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I thought she'd be
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like oh this is great I'll
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have a doctor son and she was like quite
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shocked and said that she
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thought I should stick with
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mathematics so it's where my talent lay.
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Oh that's interesting because like I when
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I had to tell my parents of course that I
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was going to switch from math to do a
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different major and so I
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was very afraid that when I
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was talking to my dad about this that he
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would say like oh now
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you're you want to do psychology
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like but he since he had all this
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background in like neuro
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biology he said like oh this
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is great you can actually figure out all
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these things now using
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math so I had a completely
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like different reaction because he had
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kind of this background
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and he thought it was great
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I was going to do that he was very
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supportive like applying
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it to something interesting
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but he knew that you could do this
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somehow together and I
286
00:09:44,817 --> 00:09:46,552
had I had no idea of that so
287
00:09:46,552 --> 00:09:49,488
it was really interesting a different
288
00:09:49,555 --> 00:09:50,790
kind of experience there.
289
00:09:51,223 --> 00:09:53,326
Yeah but don't worry years later mum
290
00:09:53,326 --> 00:09:54,427
became very proud of her
291
00:09:54,427 --> 00:09:55,695
doctor son and I remember
292
00:09:55,695 --> 00:09:59,565
we went out to a restaurant for her 70th
293
00:09:59,565 --> 00:10:01,067
birthday and at some point
294
00:10:01,067 --> 00:10:02,201
I went to the restroom and
295
00:10:02,201 --> 00:10:04,837
their waiter came to congratulate me on
296
00:10:05,171 --> 00:10:05,871
you know finishing
297
00:10:05,871 --> 00:10:06,973
medicine or something and I
298
00:10:06,973 --> 00:10:11,444
was like how does he even know and also I
299
00:10:11,444 --> 00:10:12,712
got an award from the
300
00:10:12,712 --> 00:10:13,713
American Psychiatric
301
00:10:13,713 --> 00:10:15,781
Association at some point and then a
302
00:10:15,781 --> 00:10:17,216
journalist rang me and of
303
00:10:17,216 --> 00:10:19,752
course the ego of a young man
304
00:10:19,852 --> 00:10:23,255
immediately declared in his own mind that
305
00:10:23,255 --> 00:10:24,357
he was now famous but
306
00:10:24,357 --> 00:10:25,658
I asked the journalist
307
00:10:25,658 --> 00:10:27,493
how did you find out about this award and
308
00:10:27,493 --> 00:10:29,095
she said oh your mum
309
00:10:29,095 --> 00:10:31,263
rang me your mum rang
310
00:10:31,263 --> 00:10:34,133
the newspaper so yeah she was very proud
311
00:10:34,133 --> 00:10:35,034
of these things but good
312
00:10:35,034 --> 00:10:36,102
on her I mean she should
313
00:10:36,102 --> 00:10:39,972
be she worked for very hard as many
314
00:10:39,972 --> 00:10:42,174
people do bringing up her kids and
315
00:10:42,174 --> 00:10:43,542
sacrificing everything
316
00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:45,544
Yeah I mean that's no small
317
00:10:45,544 --> 00:10:46,445
accomplishment right?
318
00:10:46,479 --> 00:10:46,812
Yeah.
319
00:10:47,113 --> 00:10:50,082
Yeah and in your case well of course
320
00:10:50,082 --> 00:10:53,252
you've navigated motherhood
321
00:10:53,252 --> 00:10:54,653
during a scientific career
322
00:10:54,653 --> 00:10:56,022
I mean that comes later in your life than
323
00:10:56,022 --> 00:10:56,489
we've been talking
324
00:10:56,489 --> 00:10:59,191
about so far but it's always
325
00:10:59,191 --> 00:10:59,892
a balance right?
326
00:11:00,426 --> 00:11:03,329
It's always a balance there's always but
327
00:11:03,462 --> 00:11:04,163
in the end what it
328
00:11:04,163 --> 00:11:06,065
comes down to is that the
329
00:11:06,098 --> 00:11:11,871
kids are always the priority but when
330
00:11:11,871 --> 00:11:13,906
things are stable it's
331
00:11:13,906 --> 00:11:15,608
much easier to kind of balance
332
00:11:15,608 --> 00:11:17,643
these things and being a scientist you
333
00:11:17,643 --> 00:11:18,911
have you know you have
334
00:11:18,911 --> 00:11:20,746
some flexibility which is
335
00:11:20,746 --> 00:11:22,081
great so I can't have breakfast with my
336
00:11:22,081 --> 00:11:23,349
kids every morning I
337
00:11:23,349 --> 00:11:24,917
mean I know for example as
338
00:11:24,917 --> 00:11:26,485
a doctor that's much more difficult to
339
00:11:26,485 --> 00:11:27,353
have breakfast with
340
00:11:27,353 --> 00:11:29,288
your kids so I think during
341
00:11:29,288 --> 00:11:31,157
those types of you know those types of
342
00:11:31,157 --> 00:11:32,024
things are very
343
00:11:32,024 --> 00:11:34,393
important and then but one of the
344
00:11:34,393 --> 00:11:36,962
things that for example that was that's
345
00:11:36,962 --> 00:11:37,963
different because we don't
346
00:11:37,963 --> 00:11:39,799
live close to family we don't
347
00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:44,236
live like when we had our first kid when
348
00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:45,204
we had our first kid
349
00:11:45,204 --> 00:11:46,572
we didn't have like much
350
00:11:46,572 --> 00:11:48,240
money we were like he was a resident I
351
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,443
was a postdoc so we had
352
00:11:50,443 --> 00:11:52,211
to kind of scramble but
353
00:11:52,211 --> 00:11:55,381
the other community around us really
354
00:11:55,381 --> 00:11:56,816
supported us in terms of
355
00:11:56,816 --> 00:11:58,184
like having dinners together
356
00:11:58,451 --> 00:12:00,553
watching our kids when we were not around
357
00:12:00,853 --> 00:12:01,821
so it's been really
358
00:12:01,821 --> 00:12:03,456
our friends around these
359
00:12:03,456 --> 00:12:05,558
and of course my parents are you know and
360
00:12:05,591 --> 00:12:06,759
across the Atlantic so they
361
00:12:06,759 --> 00:12:07,827
could come visit maybe for
362
00:12:07,827 --> 00:12:09,795
one week or two weeks at a time or to
363
00:12:09,795 --> 00:12:11,664
help out sometimes but not
364
00:12:11,664 --> 00:12:13,265
on an ongoing basis and so I
365
00:12:13,265 --> 00:12:15,101
think that kind of community support has
366
00:12:15,101 --> 00:12:17,903
been has been really really
367
00:12:17,903 --> 00:12:21,373
valuable also I think as you
368
00:12:21,373 --> 00:12:24,276
know I had my two postdoc mentors John
369
00:12:24,276 --> 00:12:25,511
Winiver and Brian Wandell
370
00:12:25,978 --> 00:12:28,714
were also very supportive and
371
00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:30,683
you know we did a lot of computational
372
00:12:30,683 --> 00:12:33,519
work and they would I've
373
00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:34,887
never had any conversation with
374
00:12:34,887 --> 00:12:37,289
them about they never had any criticism
375
00:12:37,289 --> 00:12:39,158
about when I had to be
376
00:12:39,158 --> 00:12:40,359
there when I was not there
377
00:12:40,726 --> 00:12:42,061
because when the kids are sick I had to
378
00:12:42,061 --> 00:12:43,729
be home because my
379
00:12:43,729 --> 00:12:45,264
husband was in the hospital
380
00:12:46,031 --> 00:12:48,234
doing important work so I it's always
381
00:12:48,234 --> 00:12:49,435
been kind of that situation
382
00:12:49,435 --> 00:12:51,103
but yeah it's always a balance
383
00:12:51,103 --> 00:12:54,039
but it's wonderful and how supportive do
384
00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:55,174
you think the institutions
385
00:12:55,174 --> 00:12:56,776
that you've worked in have been
386
00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:01,147
supporting this complex dual role thing?
387
00:13:01,514 --> 00:13:04,550
So it depends on where
388
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:06,152
it depends I've been in as
389
00:13:06,152 --> 00:13:07,753
opposed to like I spent some time in the
390
00:13:07,753 --> 00:13:09,722
Netherlands and I spent some time at
391
00:13:09,722 --> 00:13:11,490
Stanford as well and it
392
00:13:11,490 --> 00:13:14,059
was so my first child was actually born
393
00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:16,395
while I was still in in the
394
00:13:16,395 --> 00:13:18,264
Netherlands or still on like
395
00:13:18,264 --> 00:13:20,533
my finishing my PhD and then I got 12
396
00:13:20,633 --> 00:13:22,234
weeks of pregnancy leave. I
397
00:13:22,234 --> 00:13:23,369
mean you're you're here right
398
00:13:23,502 --> 00:13:26,272
yeah but I was still like I mean I got 12
399
00:13:26,272 --> 00:13:27,540
12 weeks of pregnancy
400
00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:29,408
leave which is which is
401
00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,012
very helpful basically because you don't
402
00:13:33,012 --> 00:13:33,946
get much sleep during that
403
00:13:33,946 --> 00:13:36,115
time and by the end of that I
404
00:13:36,115 --> 00:13:38,684
really wanted to go back to work and so
405
00:13:38,684 --> 00:13:40,452
it was really nice like to
406
00:13:40,486 --> 00:13:42,354
to to kind of be able to get
407
00:13:42,354 --> 00:13:44,690
work done again and go back to work but
408
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:46,725
12 weeks is good and then
409
00:13:46,725 --> 00:13:48,460
after that you can you know you
410
00:13:49,361 --> 00:13:51,597
dropping a 12-week hold at you know
411
00:13:51,597 --> 00:13:54,033
12-week hold at daycare is okay. My
412
00:13:54,099 --> 00:13:56,535
second child was born when
413
00:13:56,535 --> 00:13:57,736
I was at Stanford where I had eight
414
00:13:57,736 --> 00:13:59,471
weeks. Now eight weeks is
415
00:13:59,538 --> 00:14:00,406
you mean when you were employed
416
00:14:00,406 --> 00:14:01,941
by Stanford we were at Stanford yeah we
417
00:14:01,941 --> 00:14:03,475
were at Stanford at eight
418
00:14:03,475 --> 00:14:05,778
weeks it's much much more
419
00:14:05,778 --> 00:14:09,582
difficult and so and the hard part was
420
00:14:09,582 --> 00:14:11,116
also is that the the
421
00:14:11,116 --> 00:14:13,519
fellowship that I was on I couldn't
422
00:14:13,552 --> 00:14:14,787
take those eight weeks to the end of it
423
00:14:14,787 --> 00:14:17,456
so it was just cut off short
424
00:14:17,456 --> 00:14:18,624
at the end it wasn't like it
425
00:14:18,824 --> 00:14:20,125
could take those eight weeks at the end
426
00:14:20,125 --> 00:14:21,727
to take longer or take a
427
00:14:21,727 --> 00:14:23,662
break at any point in time there
428
00:14:23,662 --> 00:14:26,131
was no situation where I could then move
429
00:14:26,131 --> 00:14:27,733
those eight weeks to
430
00:14:27,866 --> 00:14:29,802
actually get the work done so that
431
00:14:29,802 --> 00:14:31,470
was much more that was much more
432
00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:33,772
difficult but luckily at that point in
433
00:14:33,772 --> 00:14:34,740
time I had supportive
434
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:37,943
mentors around me who could basically
435
00:14:37,943 --> 00:14:39,812
step in and that was the main thing that
436
00:14:39,812 --> 00:14:40,713
I think got me through
437
00:14:40,746 --> 00:14:43,315
is to have like supportive mentors who
438
00:14:43,382 --> 00:14:44,383
like both John Winter and
439
00:14:44,383 --> 00:14:46,118
Brian Wandell they both they both
440
00:14:46,118 --> 00:14:48,387
stepped in at those times when there was
441
00:14:48,387 --> 00:14:49,588
a fellowship running out
442
00:14:49,588 --> 00:14:50,956
couldn't get a new fellowship
443
00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:52,958
or like took me about you know several
444
00:14:52,958 --> 00:14:53,959
applications to get a new
445
00:14:53,959 --> 00:14:55,961
fellowship they were always I felt
446
00:14:55,961 --> 00:14:57,863
like I had support which was fantastic.
447
00:14:57,963 --> 00:14:59,365
Yeah and your PhD
448
00:14:59,465 --> 00:15:00,866
advisor I mean your PhD advisor
449
00:15:00,866 --> 00:15:05,004
Nick Ramsey's who so actually he was who
450
00:15:05,037 --> 00:15:07,840
introduced the two of us yeah and it
451
00:15:08,107 --> 00:15:08,974
seemed to me that he
452
00:15:09,842 --> 00:15:13,445
he gave you flexibility and support I
453
00:15:13,445 --> 00:15:14,513
think you're an easy case
454
00:15:14,513 --> 00:15:15,814
because you're productive
455
00:15:15,948 --> 00:15:18,284
right and you have to be science from a
456
00:15:18,284 --> 00:15:19,718
distance and writing a lot
457
00:15:21,253 --> 00:15:23,155
has the way and I guess this
458
00:15:23,155 --> 00:15:25,357
is a good question for both of you guys
459
00:15:25,658 --> 00:15:26,625
how are the interactions
460
00:15:26,625 --> 00:15:28,160
that you had with your thesis
461
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,828
advisors when you were doing your PhD
462
00:15:29,862 --> 00:15:31,964
shaped the interactions
463
00:15:31,964 --> 00:15:33,499
that you have with your own PhD
464
00:15:33,632 --> 00:15:35,167
students you know Michael you've
465
00:15:35,167 --> 00:15:37,636
obviously been doing this longer than
466
00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:40,272
Dora has but I think it's
467
00:15:40,272 --> 00:15:42,708
salient for both of you you know. I'll
468
00:15:42,708 --> 00:15:45,177
let you go first. Well I also did
469
00:15:45,177 --> 00:15:46,612
clinical training so I had
470
00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:48,947
mentors from psychiatry and of course
471
00:15:49,315 --> 00:15:51,083
they're the sort of personal
472
00:15:52,318 --> 00:15:53,752
emotional journeys very much
473
00:15:53,752 --> 00:15:56,422
foregrounded so certainly I took a lot of
474
00:15:56,422 --> 00:15:59,992
principles from that yeah I had good I
475
00:15:59,992 --> 00:16:01,493
had excellent postdoc
476
00:16:01,627 --> 00:16:07,066
supervisors but I also traveled and met
477
00:16:08,067 --> 00:16:09,702
other senior scientists or
478
00:16:09,702 --> 00:16:10,869
met senior scientists and
479
00:16:10,869 --> 00:16:14,873
what I think took most was say at a
480
00:16:14,873 --> 00:16:18,777
conference you know if they
481
00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:21,113
had postdocs that were my level
482
00:16:21,747 --> 00:16:23,949
you could see which groups were working
483
00:16:23,949 --> 00:16:27,286
together with a lot of
484
00:16:27,286 --> 00:16:30,856
happiness joy collegiality
485
00:16:31,190 --> 00:16:34,093
and and and you know if the PI was there
486
00:16:34,493 --> 00:16:36,628
you know having fun
487
00:16:36,962 --> 00:16:40,132
supporting showing some
488
00:16:40,132 --> 00:16:42,768
science for the more junior members that
489
00:16:42,768 --> 00:16:44,803
that becomes a inspiration
490
00:16:45,237 --> 00:16:47,506
far more than old mate who
491
00:16:47,506 --> 00:16:50,142
stands up on the podium and impresses the
492
00:16:50,142 --> 00:16:52,711
audience with their singular
493
00:16:52,845 --> 00:16:55,214
genius and doesn't bring any
494
00:16:55,214 --> 00:16:56,849
of the people that have worked on the
495
00:16:56,882 --> 00:16:58,217
projects along in that
496
00:16:58,217 --> 00:17:00,853
journey and then wants to sort of
497
00:17:01,587 --> 00:17:03,255
network only with people at the senior
498
00:17:03,255 --> 00:17:05,624
level I mean yeah the work
499
00:17:05,624 --> 00:17:07,192
is interesting but there's
500
00:17:07,192 --> 00:17:09,962
no inspiration in mentorship and of
501
00:17:09,962 --> 00:17:10,963
course many of the most
502
00:17:10,963 --> 00:17:13,432
famous people or most influential
503
00:17:13,432 --> 00:17:14,967
people I should say because that's more
504
00:17:14,967 --> 00:17:18,103
important have wonderful relationships
505
00:17:18,103 --> 00:17:19,204
with their teams and
506
00:17:19,405 --> 00:17:23,108
support them and and and at a conference
507
00:17:23,242 --> 00:17:24,143
enjoy each other's
508
00:17:24,143 --> 00:17:26,145
company without such a hierarchy
509
00:17:26,445 --> 00:17:28,447
I mean this is quite common in Australia
510
00:17:28,447 --> 00:17:30,549
and Europe and in many
511
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:31,550
of the American labs that
512
00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:33,852
I've visited so there that they would be
513
00:17:33,852 --> 00:17:35,587
the sort sort of
514
00:17:35,621 --> 00:17:38,590
relationships that would I would
515
00:17:38,991 --> 00:17:42,161
implicitly mold myself on and of course
516
00:17:42,161 --> 00:17:45,397
also groups where there was you know
517
00:17:45,831 --> 00:17:47,299
equality and diversity
518
00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:51,870
nationality gender all these things and
519
00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:53,939
more recently and maybe
520
00:17:53,939 --> 00:17:55,941
it is too recent and should
521
00:17:55,941 --> 00:17:58,644
further back you know my group come along
522
00:17:58,644 --> 00:18:00,579
with kids and and young
523
00:18:00,579 --> 00:18:02,981
kids sometimes and it's much
524
00:18:02,981 --> 00:18:05,217
more of a family environment now which is
525
00:18:05,217 --> 00:18:08,287
also wonderful yeah so
526
00:18:08,287 --> 00:18:10,856
that's the sort of journey and
527
00:18:10,856 --> 00:18:13,926
inspiration I've taken points from I
528
00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:15,194
still think institutes
529
00:18:15,194 --> 00:18:16,395
should be doing a lot more
530
00:18:17,396 --> 00:18:19,431
because during the daily life even if the
531
00:18:19,431 --> 00:18:20,332
children are a little bit
532
00:18:20,332 --> 00:18:22,434
older they might need to get
533
00:18:22,501 --> 00:18:24,169
early they might have to stay home if
534
00:18:24,169 --> 00:18:26,004
they're unwell and what are the
535
00:18:26,004 --> 00:18:27,606
institutes doing in order
536
00:18:27,606 --> 00:18:30,509
to make that easier you know sometimes
537
00:18:30,576 --> 00:18:32,244
practically some of my
538
00:18:32,244 --> 00:18:33,679
postdocs have to bring their young
539
00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:35,681
children into work they can't keep
540
00:18:35,681 --> 00:18:36,482
staying at home maybe
541
00:18:36,482 --> 00:18:37,683
they're running an experiment
542
00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:40,853
and so therefore the question is how
543
00:18:40,853 --> 00:18:42,254
flexible is the institute
544
00:18:42,287 --> 00:18:44,823
going to be and obviously they have
545
00:18:44,823 --> 00:18:46,959
to look after safety and other concerns
546
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:48,460
but at the end of the day
547
00:18:49,328 --> 00:18:50,796
like there's a young kid they
548
00:18:50,929 --> 00:18:54,333
make a space that's safe for the young
549
00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:57,135
children to play in so that the mums
550
00:18:57,135 --> 00:18:58,003
particularly visiting
551
00:18:58,003 --> 00:19:00,873
postdocs can do their work and fathers I
552
00:19:00,873 --> 00:19:03,876
mean we should have make sure both
553
00:19:04,243 --> 00:19:05,577
parents particularly
554
00:19:05,577 --> 00:19:07,112
in the netherlands where there is an
555
00:19:07,112 --> 00:19:08,981
expectation for both parents to be
556
00:19:09,548 --> 00:19:11,016
co-parenting a lot more
557
00:19:11,016 --> 00:19:13,452
than say in Australia yeah these are the
558
00:19:13,452 --> 00:19:15,721
sorts of places now that I
559
00:19:15,721 --> 00:19:17,489
think make the lab a happy place
560
00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:20,592
and productive yeah I remember I think
561
00:19:20,692 --> 00:19:23,028
all of you Brian you may have met Bob
562
00:19:23,028 --> 00:19:23,829
Knight at some point
563
00:19:23,829 --> 00:19:25,764
but I know the other two of you have at
564
00:19:25,764 --> 00:19:27,332
some point he literally had a
565
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:29,801
room in the lab that was set up
566
00:19:29,801 --> 00:19:31,970
as a place for the kids to hang out when
567
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:33,071
people brought their kids in
568
00:19:33,071 --> 00:19:37,442
and he he's had this amazing
569
00:19:37,809 --> 00:19:42,147
sort of a steady stream of very high high
570
00:19:42,147 --> 00:19:43,048
intellect and also
571
00:19:43,549 --> 00:19:44,683
highly productive people
572
00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:46,885
came through and I think he always really
573
00:19:46,885 --> 00:19:47,619
cultivated this
574
00:19:47,619 --> 00:19:48,954
family environment that uh
575
00:19:49,087 --> 00:19:51,223
that you feel from a distance yeah no I
576
00:19:51,223 --> 00:19:52,391
mean it really helps if
577
00:19:52,391 --> 00:19:53,825
there's like supportive senior
578
00:19:53,825 --> 00:19:56,428
people around and so I think that that's
579
00:19:56,428 --> 00:19:57,029
you know that's what you
580
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:59,031
want to create as a lab also is
581
00:19:59,031 --> 00:20:01,300
like you know I had to tell my PhD
582
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,001
advisor that I was you know I was
583
00:20:03,001 --> 00:20:04,002
pregnant at some point and
584
00:20:04,002 --> 00:20:06,371
you're always nervous about that so but
585
00:20:06,705 --> 00:20:07,806
he was supportive and he
586
00:20:07,806 --> 00:20:09,041
said you know we'll get it done
587
00:20:09,041 --> 00:20:11,710
remote and just and I finished it remote
588
00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:13,412
with a child on my on my
589
00:20:13,412 --> 00:20:15,080
belly and we zoomed and it was
590
00:20:15,113 --> 00:20:16,715
it was all fine so if you have a
591
00:20:16,715 --> 00:20:18,383
supportive advisor then you
592
00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:19,918
can finish your papers and you
593
00:20:19,918 --> 00:20:22,287
can basically do your work as you know
594
00:20:22,287 --> 00:20:23,922
however however things work
595
00:20:23,922 --> 00:20:25,190
out but it's like that's kind
596
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:27,159
of the environment that is most
597
00:20:27,159 --> 00:20:30,095
productive um for everybody a question I
598
00:20:30,095 --> 00:20:31,129
have for you also just
599
00:20:31,129 --> 00:20:34,099
starting a lab I mean it's difficult now
600
00:20:34,099 --> 00:20:35,534
sometimes or it can be difficult
601
00:20:35,534 --> 00:20:37,202
combining you know coding
602
00:20:37,202 --> 00:20:40,472
yourself with you know your lab is coding
603
00:20:40,472 --> 00:20:41,073
and you want to stay
604
00:20:41,073 --> 00:20:42,274
involved in these things
605
00:20:42,774 --> 00:20:45,344
you know I've seen over the time like uh
606
00:20:45,711 --> 00:20:46,778
you know it's it's you
607
00:20:46,778 --> 00:20:47,946
want to you want to keep doing
608
00:20:48,013 --> 00:20:49,748
things yourself so have you set up your
609
00:20:49,748 --> 00:20:51,183
lab in some way to kind of
610
00:20:51,183 --> 00:20:52,951
keep doing things yourself
611
00:20:52,951 --> 00:20:55,354
as well as with people in your lab yeah
612
00:20:55,354 --> 00:20:56,688
it's a really challenging
613
00:20:56,688 --> 00:20:58,757
issue setting up your lab
614
00:20:58,857 --> 00:21:00,092
first of all you make quite a few
615
00:21:00,092 --> 00:21:03,195
mistakes when you're going as a junior PI
616
00:21:03,929 --> 00:21:04,930
and one of the things
617
00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:06,932
I learned it's a bit of a segue from your
618
00:21:06,932 --> 00:21:10,202
question is uh yeah you have
619
00:21:10,202 --> 00:21:11,670
to be a friend but you also
620
00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:13,739
have to be the supervisor so you have to
621
00:21:13,772 --> 00:21:15,007
create a bit of a boundary
622
00:21:15,007 --> 00:21:16,575
there that I didn't necessarily
623
00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:19,578
do that well when I was younger like I
624
00:21:19,611 --> 00:21:22,347
feel like my group not more
625
00:21:22,347 --> 00:21:24,650
productive when I clearly know
626
00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:26,818
what I was doing and where I wanted what
627
00:21:26,818 --> 00:21:28,820
I wanted them to work on and
628
00:21:28,820 --> 00:21:29,721
where they could come to me
629
00:21:29,755 --> 00:21:31,390
for advice obviously I was a little bit
630
00:21:31,390 --> 00:21:34,559
older so I think learning how
631
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:36,061
to create a fenry environment
632
00:21:36,061 --> 00:21:38,196
but one in which people know that you
633
00:21:38,196 --> 00:21:39,498
know what you want and you
634
00:21:39,498 --> 00:21:40,732
know where the lab's going and
635
00:21:40,732 --> 00:21:42,401
you know how to answer questions
636
00:21:42,768 --> 00:21:45,203
otherwise it's a bit of a rabble and
637
00:21:45,203 --> 00:21:46,305
sometimes you'll get people
638
00:21:46,305 --> 00:21:47,973
who might take advantage of that and get
639
00:21:47,973 --> 00:21:49,508
funded to do something but not be
640
00:21:49,508 --> 00:21:50,642
interested in it because
641
00:21:50,642 --> 00:21:53,912
you're not seen as the authority so
642
00:21:53,912 --> 00:21:56,648
that's one one thing about to put into
643
00:21:56,648 --> 00:21:58,583
context being friendly
644
00:21:58,684 --> 00:22:00,285
it becomes a little bit easier when
645
00:22:00,285 --> 00:22:01,953
you're a little bit more senior but when
646
00:22:01,953 --> 00:22:03,088
you're more junior you do
647
00:22:03,088 --> 00:22:06,525
also need to be the supervisor the mentor
648
00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:08,427
and all of these things in
649
00:22:08,427 --> 00:22:10,062
terms of getting the balance
650
00:22:10,095 --> 00:22:13,832
like I very much want to be able to do as
651
00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:15,367
much of the hands-on work
652
00:22:15,467 --> 00:22:18,136
as I can and particularly
653
00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:19,871
to continue to do some coding and some
654
00:22:19,871 --> 00:22:20,839
mathematical thinking
655
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:22,741
that's why I got into the game
656
00:22:23,675 --> 00:22:25,677
it does it is a challenge for a number of
657
00:22:25,677 --> 00:22:27,813
reasons the coding
658
00:22:27,813 --> 00:22:29,481
environment changes the
659
00:22:29,514 --> 00:22:32,017
data environment changes its bids and
660
00:22:32,017 --> 00:22:34,853
it's very much fMRI prep and
661
00:22:34,853 --> 00:22:36,688
therefore it's much easier to
662
00:22:36,722 --> 00:22:38,590
integrate that data into a coding
663
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:41,426
environment if it's python-based although
664
00:22:41,426 --> 00:22:42,594
it's still obviously
665
00:22:42,594 --> 00:22:44,763
very easy to do it in that lab people
666
00:22:44,763 --> 00:22:46,631
want to learn code in python
667
00:22:47,365 --> 00:22:48,834
it's hard to suddenly learn
668
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,937
coding in a second language and also if
669
00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:52,804
you've got three or four
670
00:22:52,804 --> 00:22:54,172
people in the group doing
671
00:22:54,206 --> 00:22:56,641
physics and coding you're not going to be
672
00:22:56,675 --> 00:22:57,909
able to keep up with it all
673
00:22:57,909 --> 00:22:58,643
and some of them are going
674
00:22:58,643 --> 00:23:00,679
to definitely a lot better than me my
675
00:23:00,679 --> 00:23:04,249
code is not it gets the job done so you
676
00:23:04,249 --> 00:23:05,283
have to compromise you
677
00:23:05,283 --> 00:23:07,953
have to go from coding at all to knowing
678
00:23:07,953 --> 00:23:09,688
how it's going to be coded to
679
00:23:09,688 --> 00:23:11,123
knowing in principle what it
680
00:23:11,123 --> 00:23:13,358
needs to do it's a kind of trusting
681
00:23:13,358 --> 00:23:15,727
people but still being able to do code
682
00:23:15,727 --> 00:23:17,162
review and that's kind
683
00:23:17,162 --> 00:23:19,498
of where I'm more or less at if you're
684
00:23:19,531 --> 00:23:20,699
not careful and you're
685
00:23:20,699 --> 00:23:22,934
ambitious to become very senior
686
00:23:23,568 --> 00:23:26,138
that's going to be impossible so I've had
687
00:23:26,138 --> 00:23:27,839
to either choose more
688
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,043
senior roles or sort of tasks
689
00:23:32,511 --> 00:23:35,881
that aren't too overwhelming or even a
690
00:23:35,881 --> 00:23:39,684
little bit down actively
691
00:23:39,684 --> 00:23:42,154
down manage my senior already
692
00:23:42,154 --> 00:23:46,491
I have been like senior in the scientific
693
00:23:46,558 --> 00:23:48,026
community but in the
694
00:23:48,026 --> 00:23:49,294
institute I've had to be
695
00:23:49,294 --> 00:23:52,063
very careful not to pursue senior
696
00:23:52,063 --> 00:23:53,064
directorships and other
697
00:23:53,064 --> 00:23:54,666
things because I think then well it
698
00:23:54,666 --> 00:23:58,103
became very clear to me because I showed
699
00:23:58,103 --> 00:23:59,438
interest in a few jobs that
700
00:23:59,438 --> 00:24:01,339
these were going to be purely
701
00:24:01,339 --> 00:24:02,841
administrative roles and there wasn't
702
00:24:02,841 --> 00:24:03,675
going to be any any
703
00:24:03,675 --> 00:24:05,610
research at all or one day a week
704
00:24:06,111 --> 00:24:08,713
yes so you need to get funding so you can
705
00:24:08,713 --> 00:24:09,481
be an independent
706
00:24:09,481 --> 00:24:11,283
researcher so you can have lab
707
00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:13,118
meetings so you can go to the lab meeting
708
00:24:13,118 --> 00:24:14,252
so you can have your
709
00:24:14,252 --> 00:24:16,488
supervision that might involve code
710
00:24:16,488 --> 00:24:18,723
review that definitely involves
711
00:24:18,723 --> 00:24:20,992
conceptual development yeah
712
00:24:20,992 --> 00:24:21,693
and you've got to keep your
713
00:24:21,693 --> 00:24:25,130
head below the parapet fight the fights
714
00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:26,431
that are important but
715
00:24:26,431 --> 00:24:27,866
know when to stay quiet
716
00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:31,536
and probably sometimes I'm a bit guilty
717
00:24:31,536 --> 00:24:34,739
of being too off the radar because
718
00:24:35,307 --> 00:24:36,341
otherwise I just get
719
00:24:36,408 --> 00:24:38,543
overwhelmed with all these administrative
720
00:24:38,543 --> 00:24:41,179
roles and every now and
721
00:24:41,179 --> 00:24:43,682
then you feel like you've got
722
00:24:43,682 --> 00:24:45,483
to go and fight a few battles because
723
00:24:45,483 --> 00:24:47,886
otherwise things will get
724
00:24:47,886 --> 00:24:49,955
done too too much corporate
725
00:24:49,955 --> 00:24:55,026
nonsense or too much corporate speak or
726
00:24:55,026 --> 00:24:57,062
bureaucracy and what you're
727
00:24:57,062 --> 00:24:58,897
doing as a group is and your
728
00:24:59,030 --> 00:25:01,700
postdocs isn't being properly appreciated
729
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:02,934
because you haven't fought
730
00:25:02,934 --> 00:25:04,536
for it so every now and then
731
00:25:04,803 --> 00:25:06,671
you have to go meet all the people and
732
00:25:06,671 --> 00:25:08,540
fight the fights and promote
733
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:09,741
the work of your group and not
734
00:25:09,741 --> 00:25:11,343
just rest on your laurels that you're
735
00:25:11,343 --> 00:25:13,311
going to be successful if
736
00:25:13,311 --> 00:25:14,379
you go into conferences and
737
00:25:14,379 --> 00:25:16,414
presenting the work and publishing the
738
00:25:16,414 --> 00:25:16,948
work because
739
00:25:16,982 --> 00:25:19,551
surprisingly more senior people at
740
00:25:19,551 --> 00:25:21,653
universities and institutes often don't
741
00:25:21,653 --> 00:25:22,687
know what you're publishing
742
00:25:23,521 --> 00:25:25,457
they might be happy that oh yeah
743
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:28,226
he's probably publishing well or getting
744
00:25:28,226 --> 00:25:29,594
a grant but they don't
745
00:25:29,594 --> 00:25:31,363
actually know so then you have you
746
00:25:31,429 --> 00:25:33,498
got to get this balance right but if you
747
00:25:33,498 --> 00:25:34,599
want to stay active in
748
00:25:34,599 --> 00:25:37,702
science you have to occasionally
749
00:25:37,702 --> 00:25:40,906
down manage your promotions out of more
750
00:25:41,006 --> 00:25:43,208
administrative roles so
751
00:25:43,208 --> 00:25:44,943
learn how to say no that's
752
00:25:44,943 --> 00:25:47,612
important yes saying no to individual
753
00:25:47,612 --> 00:25:49,948
tasks but also focusing on
754
00:25:49,948 --> 00:25:51,182
the good work of your group
755
00:25:51,650 --> 00:25:57,022
and not taking senior directorship roles
756
00:25:57,055 --> 00:25:59,090
unless they're going to see
757
00:25:59,090 --> 00:26:01,092
you as a flagship researcher
758
00:26:01,126 --> 00:26:04,296
which many in the past were but
759
00:26:04,362 --> 00:26:06,164
increasingly i find that
760
00:26:06,164 --> 00:26:07,599
the senior directorship roles
761
00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:09,935
particularly in australia are not for
762
00:26:09,935 --> 00:26:12,103
people who are able to do research and
763
00:26:12,370 --> 00:26:13,972
that sort of saddens me
764
00:26:15,173 --> 00:26:19,244
yeah um there's a few i think really nice
765
00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:20,178
things that would be good to
766
00:26:20,178 --> 00:26:21,746
talk with uh the two of you
767
00:26:21,746 --> 00:26:26,785
guys about um for dora for dr hermes uh
768
00:26:26,785 --> 00:26:28,820
specifically uh i'd like to
769
00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:30,422
kind of hear your thoughts about
770
00:26:30,689 --> 00:26:34,359
um data standardization and creation of
771
00:26:34,392 --> 00:26:35,894
um let's say a bids
772
00:26:35,894 --> 00:26:37,228
framework for human and
773
00:26:37,228 --> 00:26:39,130
chiricranial data which is a data
774
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:40,031
standard you create if you
775
00:26:40,031 --> 00:26:40,966
could tell us a little bit about
776
00:26:40,966 --> 00:26:43,201
that and then after um dora goes into
777
00:26:43,201 --> 00:26:44,502
that maybe we could hear some from you
778
00:26:44,502 --> 00:26:45,837
michael about the way
779
00:26:45,837 --> 00:26:49,641
that you became an editor in chief of one
780
00:26:49,641 --> 00:26:51,509
of the premier neurosurgery journal
781
00:26:52,177 --> 00:26:53,044
neuroscience journal
782
00:26:53,044 --> 00:26:55,547
sorry and then uh sort of how things have
783
00:26:55,547 --> 00:26:56,314
gone after and then the
784
00:26:56,314 --> 00:26:57,816
same thing with the society
785
00:26:58,216 --> 00:27:00,352
the organization of human brain mapping
786
00:27:00,652 --> 00:27:01,419
why don't you tell us
787
00:27:01,419 --> 00:27:02,520
a little bit about data
788
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,255
standard the data standardization and the
789
00:27:04,255 --> 00:27:05,724
importance of it so
790
00:27:05,724 --> 00:27:06,625
when you're starting to
791
00:27:06,625 --> 00:27:08,460
do projects are growing right across the
792
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:09,995
board we're starting to incorporate
793
00:27:10,028 --> 00:27:11,329
multimodal data more
794
00:27:11,329 --> 00:27:14,499
data big you know big data was a was the
795
00:27:14,499 --> 00:27:16,234
word like 10 years ago or so
796
00:27:16,234 --> 00:27:18,203
i think and now we're using
797
00:27:18,203 --> 00:27:21,906
those larger data sets to train different
798
00:27:21,906 --> 00:27:24,609
types of models um of brain
799
00:27:24,609 --> 00:27:26,478
dynamics for example and so
800
00:27:26,478 --> 00:27:28,613
you're working with these types of data
801
00:27:28,613 --> 00:27:30,115
you have to make sure that you can
802
00:27:30,548 --> 00:27:31,750
actually in just a minute
803
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:33,184
computer program it means that they have
804
00:27:33,184 --> 00:27:35,086
to be machine readable but
805
00:27:35,086 --> 00:27:36,888
at the same time you want
806
00:27:37,489 --> 00:27:39,624
clinicians or undergrads who just come
807
00:27:39,624 --> 00:27:40,492
into the lab who don't
808
00:27:40,492 --> 00:27:42,127
have a large computer sciences
809
00:27:42,127 --> 00:27:44,029
background you want them to be able to
810
00:27:44,029 --> 00:27:45,930
interact with data and so
811
00:27:45,930 --> 00:27:47,932
when we started to do a project
812
00:27:47,966 --> 00:27:50,001
um i was at stanford at a time and we
813
00:27:50,001 --> 00:27:51,202
were doing a multi-site
814
00:27:51,202 --> 00:27:53,538
project between uh new york
815
00:27:53,838 --> 00:27:58,443
nyu um john winnower um and then natalia
816
00:27:58,443 --> 00:27:59,911
petriju at the university of
817
00:27:59,911 --> 00:28:01,946
utrecht and then with brian
818
00:28:01,946 --> 00:28:04,082
wendell at stanford we were doing a
819
00:28:04,082 --> 00:28:05,216
project where we're going to
820
00:28:05,216 --> 00:28:08,720
integrate eg meg fMRI 3t 70
821
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,855
intercranial eg data so a lot of
822
00:28:10,855 --> 00:28:12,991
different data types and so we had to
823
00:28:12,991 --> 00:28:14,092
come up with a way to share
824
00:28:14,092 --> 00:28:15,860
those data and we just looked for like
825
00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:17,262
let's be pragmatic let's
826
00:28:17,696 --> 00:28:19,597
pick the most simple way to
827
00:28:19,664 --> 00:28:21,566
actually do this practically that's going
828
00:28:21,566 --> 00:28:23,601
to work and then i was lucky
829
00:28:23,601 --> 00:28:25,303
at the time because um we were
830
00:28:25,303 --> 00:28:26,738
on the fourth floor of the psychology
831
00:28:26,738 --> 00:28:29,007
building on the third floor was uh
832
00:28:29,007 --> 00:28:30,141
raspoldrecks lab with
833
00:28:30,141 --> 00:28:31,810
chris goralowski who had just developed
834
00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:34,212
bids for fMRI and so i
835
00:28:34,212 --> 00:28:35,380
went and i talked to him
836
00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:38,116
and i asked him is this just for MRI or
837
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:39,818
what's so do you think that
838
00:28:39,851 --> 00:28:41,319
we could make this work as well
839
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,222
for kind of sharing our data and he said
840
00:28:44,222 --> 00:28:45,356
like of course yes this is
841
00:28:45,423 --> 00:28:46,357
supposed to be a community
842
00:28:46,758 --> 00:28:48,660
we have the meg community just started
843
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:52,397
developing bits for meg and so um if
844
00:28:52,397 --> 00:28:52,964
you're interested in
845
00:28:52,964 --> 00:28:54,699
doing this for intercranial eg you should
846
00:28:54,699 --> 00:28:56,968
totally do that and so we
847
00:28:56,968 --> 00:28:58,536
contacted the meg people we got
848
00:28:58,536 --> 00:29:00,371
their template and it's really set up in
849
00:29:00,371 --> 00:29:01,639
a way such that i was a
850
00:29:01,639 --> 00:29:02,841
postdoc at the time such that
851
00:29:02,841 --> 00:29:05,343
junior people can contribute to this and
852
00:29:05,343 --> 00:29:07,278
it's it's very practical you
853
00:29:07,278 --> 00:29:09,147
can read all the the json files
854
00:29:09,147 --> 00:29:10,548
are human and machine readable you can
855
00:29:10,548 --> 00:29:12,383
see what's in there it's the tab
856
00:29:12,383 --> 00:29:15,520
separated format files it's
857
00:29:15,553 --> 00:29:18,056
file folder naming convention such that
858
00:29:18,056 --> 00:29:19,424
you can easily parse through many
859
00:29:19,524 --> 00:29:20,391
different data sets so
860
00:29:20,391 --> 00:29:22,293
it just seemed very practical and very
861
00:29:22,293 --> 00:29:24,329
feasible and so we got a lot
862
00:29:24,329 --> 00:29:26,264
of people from the ieg world
863
00:29:26,264 --> 00:29:28,333
together and review the standards and
864
00:29:28,333 --> 00:29:29,234
review the terms and the
865
00:29:29,234 --> 00:29:30,368
names that we're going to use
866
00:29:30,368 --> 00:29:34,572
ieg for example intercranial eg um and so
867
00:29:34,606 --> 00:29:35,707
um and we collaborated
868
00:29:35,707 --> 00:29:37,609
closely with the eg extension at
869
00:29:37,609 --> 00:29:39,344
the times to make sure that we were doing
870
00:29:39,644 --> 00:29:40,378
that we were naming
871
00:29:40,378 --> 00:29:41,779
everything the same in terms of
872
00:29:41,779 --> 00:29:43,615
accurate positions channels those types
873
00:29:43,615 --> 00:29:45,216
of things and i found this
874
00:29:45,216 --> 00:29:46,718
to be a very supportive and
875
00:29:46,718 --> 00:29:48,186
collaborative community they were
876
00:29:48,419 --> 00:29:50,088
everybody was being helpful in terms of
877
00:29:50,088 --> 00:29:52,657
how to do this um and so
878
00:29:52,657 --> 00:29:55,493
ever since then we you know the the data
879
00:29:55,493 --> 00:29:56,461
in our lab are structured
880
00:29:56,461 --> 00:29:58,763
in bids and it makes it such
881
00:29:58,763 --> 00:30:01,599
that you can't go back and we still know
882
00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:02,467
what was done during the
883
00:30:02,467 --> 00:30:04,169
first experiment we did in the lab
884
00:30:04,602 --> 00:30:06,871
here six years ago and you worked with
885
00:30:06,971 --> 00:30:07,839
with somebody from we
886
00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:09,374
brought up bob night um
887
00:30:09,941 --> 00:30:12,177
yeah so chris holdcraft was one of the
888
00:30:12,177 --> 00:30:13,478
main uh well it was the
889
00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:15,213
main person who was the first
890
00:30:15,213 --> 00:30:17,081
author on this paper who had a lot of
891
00:30:17,081 --> 00:30:18,416
experience with python for
892
00:30:18,416 --> 00:30:20,852
example i didn't and he so he
893
00:30:20,852 --> 00:30:22,954
helped implement a lot of the uh the
894
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:23,988
issues with the validator
895
00:30:23,988 --> 00:30:25,323
because you can validate your data
896
00:30:25,323 --> 00:30:27,458
and say like oh yeah it's correctly
897
00:30:27,458 --> 00:30:28,726
formatted according to bids
898
00:30:28,993 --> 00:30:30,361
such that someone else you
899
00:30:30,361 --> 00:30:31,930
know that another computer can read it
900
00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:33,431
and i can give it to someone and their
901
00:30:33,431 --> 00:30:34,566
computer can actually
902
00:30:35,767 --> 00:30:37,368
and i mean i think there's a few things
903
00:30:37,368 --> 00:30:38,970
that are useful one is
904
00:30:39,003 --> 00:30:40,672
let's say you know so bob night
905
00:30:40,705 --> 00:30:42,373
has he's had this interesting thing where
906
00:30:42,373 --> 00:30:43,942
he's really interested in these
907
00:30:43,975 --> 00:30:44,943
intracranial recordings
908
00:30:44,943 --> 00:30:47,445
that we do but they're not done at
909
00:30:47,445 --> 00:30:49,214
berkeley berkeley doesn't have the
910
00:30:49,214 --> 00:30:51,049
medical arm of berkeley as you see
911
00:30:51,049 --> 00:30:53,184
san francisco which is across the bay but
912
00:30:53,184 --> 00:30:54,752
he's sort of orchestrated these
913
00:30:54,752 --> 00:30:56,287
collaborations between
914
00:30:56,521 --> 00:30:58,256
sites all around the country and and
915
00:30:58,256 --> 00:31:00,158
allowed in some sense he
916
00:31:00,358 --> 00:31:02,527
needed or their group needed
917
00:31:03,027 --> 00:31:05,897
something like this was driven by uh a
918
00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:07,432
consortium need to have a
919
00:31:07,532 --> 00:31:09,634
format like this yeah i mean we
920
00:31:09,634 --> 00:31:11,236
need we all need to be able to share our
921
00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:12,604
data in a way that is easily
922
00:31:12,604 --> 00:31:13,738
interpreted by other people
923
00:31:13,738 --> 00:31:15,273
if we share electrode positions we want
924
00:31:15,273 --> 00:31:16,241
to know whether in the
925
00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:17,642
space of the individual subject
926
00:31:17,942 --> 00:31:20,578
is it mni space how do i interpret this
927
00:31:20,578 --> 00:31:22,313
with respect to the
928
00:31:22,313 --> 00:31:24,015
specific brain measurements so
929
00:31:24,015 --> 00:31:26,651
there's standardizing those things helps
930
00:31:26,684 --> 00:31:29,087
you know helps share data across many
931
00:31:29,087 --> 00:31:29,754
different monalities
932
00:31:29,821 --> 00:31:31,522
and it's been really yeah it's been
933
00:31:31,522 --> 00:31:32,957
exciting to see how it grows
934
00:31:32,957 --> 00:31:36,694
to now pet meg like pet meg
935
00:31:37,895 --> 00:31:41,165
asl there's many different um many
936
00:31:41,165 --> 00:31:42,500
different modalities can now
937
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:43,902
structure their data in this
938
00:31:43,935 --> 00:31:46,371
in a similar format all driven by a lot
939
00:31:46,371 --> 00:31:48,172
of like a lot of students a lot of
940
00:31:48,172 --> 00:31:49,774
postdocs young people
941
00:31:49,774 --> 00:31:51,876
who drive this it's not top down driven
942
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:53,645
you just i've shown the
943
00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:55,513
format to like people who come to
944
00:31:55,513 --> 00:31:57,148
me oh where i have to organize the labs
945
00:31:57,148 --> 00:31:58,182
data what do you think do you
946
00:31:58,182 --> 00:31:58,983
think this should work and i
947
00:31:59,517 --> 00:32:01,486
just talked to them for like maybe an
948
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,388
hour and then six months
949
00:32:03,388 --> 00:32:05,456
later they have organized all the
950
00:32:05,456 --> 00:32:07,225
data in bids and it's just worked for
951
00:32:07,225 --> 00:32:09,027
them as a junior person so
952
00:32:09,027 --> 00:32:11,296
it's just been very much a
953
00:32:11,296 --> 00:32:15,166
practical kind of um a practical decision
954
00:32:15,667 --> 00:32:18,369
uh rather than like it may not be the
955
00:32:18,369 --> 00:32:19,304
best format but it's
956
00:32:19,304 --> 00:32:22,407
the most practical format so as you were
957
00:32:22,407 --> 00:32:23,341
coming up with that i mean
958
00:32:23,341 --> 00:32:24,208
i guess you had a template
959
00:32:24,208 --> 00:32:25,977
ready yes but was there a lot of
960
00:32:25,977 --> 00:32:27,045
disagreement of because i'm
961
00:32:27,045 --> 00:32:27,812
sure everyone had their own
962
00:32:28,012 --> 00:32:29,580
interest in how they were already storing
963
00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:30,715
their data was there a lot
964
00:32:30,715 --> 00:32:32,617
of difficulty converging on a
965
00:32:32,917 --> 00:32:36,087
kind of a uniform format so in terms of
966
00:32:36,087 --> 00:32:37,055
so how this is done in
967
00:32:37,055 --> 00:32:38,289
bids is you have a gudak
968
00:32:38,723 --> 00:32:41,125
and then everybody can comment on that
969
00:32:41,726 --> 00:32:44,395
and so for example um it's
970
00:32:44,395 --> 00:32:45,930
it's so one of the interesting
971
00:32:46,097 --> 00:32:48,533
conversations that we had was electrodes
972
00:32:48,566 --> 00:32:50,201
like the is are actually named
973
00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:51,970
differently across different
974
00:32:52,270 --> 00:32:54,706
because when we have stereo eeg probes
975
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:56,874
they call the stereo eeg
976
00:32:57,075 --> 00:32:58,576
electrode is called an electrode
977
00:32:58,576 --> 00:33:00,278
it has multiple contacts on it so it can
978
00:33:00,278 --> 00:33:02,213
have say eight contacts and
979
00:33:02,213 --> 00:33:04,015
so we got comments i will say
980
00:33:04,015 --> 00:33:05,350
that lots of people fight about that i
981
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:06,484
always insist even talking
982
00:33:06,484 --> 00:33:07,485
to patients you have your
983
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:09,020
electrode lead and you have electrodes on
984
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:10,722
it and so these types of
985
00:33:10,822 --> 00:33:12,523
terminology but the the way in
986
00:33:12,523 --> 00:33:14,092
which this was a way in which is when is
987
00:33:14,092 --> 00:33:15,259
what is most practical for
988
00:33:15,259 --> 00:33:16,794
the community we there is an 80
989
00:33:16,794 --> 00:33:18,496
20 decision rule which generally chips in
990
00:33:18,496 --> 00:33:19,597
so you try to get input from
991
00:33:19,597 --> 00:33:21,866
many people and if all of the
992
00:33:21,899 --> 00:33:24,202
people call a single electrode contact
993
00:33:24,202 --> 00:33:26,070
and also defined in the
994
00:33:26,371 --> 00:33:27,372
you know we sometimes even
995
00:33:27,572 --> 00:33:29,607
sometimes we even looks on wikipedia or
996
00:33:29,607 --> 00:33:30,808
like in dictionaries to
997
00:33:30,808 --> 00:33:31,976
find like the definition of an
998
00:33:31,976 --> 00:33:34,145
electrode is actually a hardware contact
999
00:33:34,145 --> 00:33:36,447
that is in contact with tissue so
1000
00:33:36,481 --> 00:33:37,482
everybody agreed that
1001
00:33:37,482 --> 00:33:40,318
like a contact is an electrode and you
1002
00:33:40,318 --> 00:33:42,019
know so there's those types of
1003
00:33:42,019 --> 00:33:42,920
definitions generally
1004
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,856
worked out using a combination between
1005
00:33:45,123 --> 00:33:45,957
you know actually going
1006
00:33:45,957 --> 00:33:47,325
back to the dictionary
1007
00:33:47,658 --> 00:33:49,994
and just asking like what is 40 percent
1008
00:33:49,994 --> 00:33:51,496
of the field kind of agree on
1009
00:33:51,963 --> 00:33:53,464
you need to get a lot of community input
1010
00:33:53,464 --> 00:33:54,265
on those so sometimes there
1011
00:33:54,265 --> 00:33:55,433
were like in the google doctor
1012
00:33:55,433 --> 00:33:57,835
there were like 10 like comment like
1013
00:33:57,835 --> 00:33:59,771
lists like long comments to kind of
1014
00:33:59,771 --> 00:34:00,805
manage and to kind of
1015
00:34:00,805 --> 00:34:02,673
see what does the field think and then
1016
00:34:02,974 --> 00:34:04,442
that was what was what what
1017
00:34:04,442 --> 00:34:05,743
went into the specification
1018
00:34:05,743 --> 00:34:08,246
in the end but like now like it's like
1019
00:34:08,312 --> 00:34:09,680
one of the fun things is that
1020
00:34:09,881 --> 00:34:11,115
you know to to jump to you is
1021
00:34:11,115 --> 00:34:13,985
that you know the community of ogbm also
1022
00:34:13,985 --> 00:34:15,453
has really supported beds
1023
00:34:15,853 --> 00:34:17,221
yeah yeah so it's become
1024
00:34:17,221 --> 00:34:19,123
a big thing in like the human brain
1025
00:34:19,123 --> 00:34:20,625
mapping yeah there's a
1026
00:34:20,625 --> 00:34:22,727
recognition you know the crisis
1027
00:34:22,727 --> 00:34:25,530
and replication and that starts with
1028
00:34:25,530 --> 00:34:28,232
making sure data can be reused and
1029
00:34:28,232 --> 00:34:30,201
reanalyzed and interchanged
1030
00:34:30,201 --> 00:34:33,971
and that it's a reliable pipeline from
1031
00:34:34,072 --> 00:34:36,007
data source to analysis and
1032
00:34:36,007 --> 00:34:38,509
we use bids by the way for our
1033
00:34:38,543 --> 00:34:41,045
intracranial EEG data as well some of
1034
00:34:41,045 --> 00:34:43,481
which is acquired for example in China
1035
00:34:43,781 --> 00:34:44,649
through collaboration
1036
00:34:44,649 --> 00:34:48,019
in in Cambridge so it is extremely
1037
00:34:48,019 --> 00:34:50,254
helpful and yeah as an
1038
00:34:50,254 --> 00:34:52,290
uptake as a user or someone who's
1039
00:34:52,423 --> 00:34:54,425
taking it up it's interesting to learn
1040
00:34:55,092 --> 00:34:58,162
how complicated and hard
1041
00:34:58,162 --> 00:34:59,497
work it was in developing
1042
00:34:59,497 --> 00:35:01,766
it of course reaching a consensus like
1043
00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:03,701
that yeah but even structuring like
1044
00:35:03,734 --> 00:35:04,902
ongoing like making sure
1045
00:35:04,902 --> 00:35:06,270
that your data are structured according
1046
00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:07,205
to the standards still i
1047
00:35:07,205 --> 00:35:08,506
mean it's an ongoing if it takes
1048
00:35:08,573 --> 00:35:10,708
a lot of time of course but but if it
1049
00:35:10,708 --> 00:35:14,112
helps a user to read many to read your
1050
00:35:14,112 --> 00:35:15,313
data i think it's great
1051
00:35:15,313 --> 00:35:17,215
because that's why we share our data with
1052
00:35:17,215 --> 00:35:18,382
publications is because
1053
00:35:18,382 --> 00:35:19,650
we want it to be reused
1054
00:35:20,251 --> 00:35:22,753
um we don't want it to sit and basically
1055
00:35:22,954 --> 00:35:25,223
yeah so yeah how do you view
1056
00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:27,792
oh sorry no go how do you view
1057
00:35:27,792 --> 00:35:32,430
ohbm do you view it as a society where uh
1058
00:35:32,597 --> 00:35:35,433
what your duty is is to
1059
00:35:36,267 --> 00:35:38,002
provide let's say a substrate
1060
00:35:38,035 --> 00:35:41,272
for people to meet and uh and then from
1061
00:35:41,272 --> 00:35:43,174
there things will ground up
1062
00:35:43,441 --> 00:35:46,210
become usable and and sort
1063
00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:48,546
of rise to relevance or do you see the
1064
00:35:48,546 --> 00:35:53,084
organization as having a a distinct
1065
00:35:53,150 --> 00:35:55,119
responsibility to say hey
1066
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:56,354
we think these are the things that are
1067
00:35:56,354 --> 00:35:58,122
important in human brain mapping
1068
00:35:58,122 --> 00:35:59,724
worldwide and we want to
1069
00:35:59,724 --> 00:36:03,394
create particular opportunities well the
1070
00:36:03,394 --> 00:36:04,862
organization is or
1071
00:36:04,862 --> 00:36:07,832
ohbm it's community driven
1072
00:36:08,065 --> 00:36:12,904
and it's many things it began as you no
1073
00:36:12,904 --> 00:36:15,006
doubt know as a series of meetings
1074
00:36:15,606 --> 00:36:17,775
in the late 90s i think the first one
1075
00:36:17,775 --> 00:36:18,609
might have been in san
1076
00:36:18,609 --> 00:36:22,914
antonio um and uh it was very much
1077
00:36:22,947 --> 00:36:26,250
based on those meetings so from meeting
1078
00:36:26,250 --> 00:36:27,518
to meeting there
1079
00:36:27,518 --> 00:36:29,854
wasn't necessarily a society
1080
00:36:30,154 --> 00:36:32,790
there was an endeavor basically which
1081
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:34,859
motivated the meetings you
1082
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:35,927
know you had the human genome
1083
00:36:35,927 --> 00:36:37,695
project so then there was a notion of
1084
00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:38,863
doing something like that
1085
00:36:38,863 --> 00:36:40,197
with human brain mapping
1086
00:36:40,531 --> 00:36:44,135
like a big global effort to map the human
1087
00:36:44,135 --> 00:36:46,003
brain so when you look at
1088
00:36:46,003 --> 00:36:47,705
the formative the the people
1089
00:36:47,738 --> 00:36:50,708
formed OHBM and they were from Europe
1090
00:36:50,708 --> 00:36:51,576
they're from England they
1091
00:36:51,576 --> 00:36:52,944
were from the United States
1092
00:36:52,944 --> 00:36:56,380
Canada or Australia the motivation was to
1093
00:36:57,114 --> 00:36:57,949
do the human brain
1094
00:36:57,949 --> 00:37:01,552
project but um the actuality
1095
00:37:01,552 --> 00:37:06,023
with these annual meetings and um the the
1096
00:37:06,057 --> 00:37:08,626
organization survived
1097
00:37:08,626 --> 00:37:09,660
from meeting to meeting
1098
00:37:10,027 --> 00:37:11,762
through membership but largely through
1099
00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:12,663
registration and
1100
00:37:12,663 --> 00:37:13,864
attendance of the meeting
1101
00:37:14,665 --> 00:37:17,235
when i first got involved as uh on the
1102
00:37:17,235 --> 00:37:18,769
council of our HPM i was the
1103
00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:21,672
treasurer and probably that
1104
00:37:21,672 --> 00:37:24,041
was that was a time in which we tried to
1105
00:37:24,041 --> 00:37:25,910
go how can we make this more
1106
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:27,278
than an organization how do
1107
00:37:27,278 --> 00:37:29,880
we make it a society with annual
1108
00:37:29,914 --> 00:37:31,816
activities so people want to
1109
00:37:31,816 --> 00:37:33,417
be a member of the organization
1110
00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:34,619
whether or not they go to the annual
1111
00:37:34,619 --> 00:37:36,153
meeting and i'm sure this had
1112
00:37:36,153 --> 00:37:38,155
been with every organization
1113
00:37:38,389 --> 00:37:47,198
so we did a lot of stuff as an as the
1114
00:37:47,198 --> 00:37:49,300
council and beyond as a community to
1115
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:50,334
support the kabita's
1116
00:37:50,334 --> 00:37:53,671
papers the white papers standard ways of
1117
00:37:53,671 --> 00:37:55,773
reporting the analysis of
1118
00:37:55,773 --> 00:37:59,443
fMRI data and then MEG data and
1119
00:37:59,443 --> 00:38:03,047
also to support the bids projects and
1120
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,782
other big open data
1121
00:38:04,782 --> 00:38:08,119
projects but also the intellectual
1122
00:38:08,152 --> 00:38:10,755
exchange i mean it's great and obviously
1123
00:38:10,755 --> 00:38:12,356
it's like the ground to
1124
00:38:12,356 --> 00:38:15,326
have standard data um curation
1125
00:38:15,393 --> 00:38:18,062
and archiving but you need a common
1126
00:38:18,062 --> 00:38:20,164
understanding of principled
1127
00:38:20,164 --> 00:38:22,300
approaches to to analyze the data
1128
00:38:22,767 --> 00:38:25,670
or approaches in in plural otherwise you
1129
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:27,405
get caught up with just
1130
00:38:27,405 --> 00:38:29,073
one way of analyzing the
1131
00:38:29,073 --> 00:38:32,143
data sort of dogma so it's always been as
1132
00:38:32,143 --> 00:38:33,811
well about new and
1133
00:38:33,811 --> 00:38:37,915
innovative approaches to analyzing
1134
00:38:38,182 --> 00:38:39,950
so that people across the field did more
1135
00:38:39,950 --> 00:38:42,053
or less the same thing so to
1136
00:38:42,053 --> 00:38:44,522
say to to grow into a society
1137
00:38:44,989 --> 00:38:46,691
you know we've had chapters which have
1138
00:38:46,691 --> 00:38:47,658
annual meetings like the
1139
00:38:47,658 --> 00:38:48,793
Australian chapter we have
1140
00:38:48,793 --> 00:38:51,462
about six or seven hundred members now we
1141
00:38:51,462 --> 00:38:52,363
have special interest
1142
00:38:52,363 --> 00:38:55,099
groups open science climate
1143
00:38:55,099 --> 00:38:58,736
change ECRs there's an art special
1144
00:38:58,736 --> 00:38:59,837
interest groups what's an
1145
00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:02,273
ECR early career researcher
1146
00:39:02,606 --> 00:39:06,110
so to give E and MCRs opportunity to
1147
00:39:06,110 --> 00:39:08,479
influence the councils and the
1148
00:39:08,479 --> 00:39:10,114
organization because they're
1149
00:39:10,114 --> 00:39:13,150
often the most innovative thinkers and
1150
00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:15,219
also they identify problems
1151
00:39:15,219 --> 00:39:16,454
that people have been in the
1152
00:39:16,454 --> 00:39:19,557
organization for years may not prioritize
1153
00:39:19,590 --> 00:39:21,125
or even identify so we get
1154
00:39:21,125 --> 00:39:23,194
an interesting dynamic going
1155
00:39:23,260 --> 00:39:26,797
there as well and try to curate content
1156
00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:27,865
that's coming online
1157
00:39:28,365 --> 00:39:30,000
continually through the year there's
1158
00:39:30,034 --> 00:39:31,869
comcoms committee a communications
1159
00:39:31,869 --> 00:39:34,605
committee which is extremely active so
1160
00:39:34,605 --> 00:39:35,873
there's content coming
1161
00:39:35,906 --> 00:39:41,412
coming into the uh OHBM ecosystem um the
1162
00:39:41,412 --> 00:39:42,380
content of the annual
1163
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:43,781
meeting used to be pay
1164
00:39:43,981 --> 00:39:45,750
paywall more or less you had to be a
1165
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:47,618
member to access it and
1166
00:39:47,618 --> 00:39:49,387
then it would be released more
1167
00:39:49,954 --> 00:39:53,391
later on recently we've put all of that
1168
00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:55,693
content onto youtube so
1169
00:39:55,693 --> 00:39:57,094
just about every talk that was
1170
00:39:57,128 --> 00:39:59,029
delivered in the last five to ten years
1171
00:39:59,029 --> 00:40:00,331
can be viewed on youtube
1172
00:40:01,198 --> 00:40:02,833
and that's a great initiative
1173
00:40:02,833 --> 00:40:06,137
for open science but maybe it also you
1174
00:40:06,137 --> 00:40:07,371
know we need to be aware
1175
00:40:07,371 --> 00:40:09,173
when doing like that doing that
1176
00:40:09,673 --> 00:40:11,709
that doesn't incentivize being a member
1177
00:40:11,709 --> 00:40:15,413
of OHBM and if we're only
1178
00:40:15,579 --> 00:40:16,781
getting members who can go to
1179
00:40:16,781 --> 00:40:19,583
the annual meeting then we're privileging
1180
00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:20,818
richer labs in richer
1181
00:40:20,818 --> 00:40:22,853
countries because not all labs can
1182
00:40:22,853 --> 00:40:25,189
afford to go to the annual meeting so
1183
00:40:25,189 --> 00:40:25,856
we're trying to get this
1184
00:40:25,856 --> 00:40:28,459
balance between getting more
1185
00:40:28,459 --> 00:40:31,095
members that are globally diverse and get
1186
00:40:31,095 --> 00:40:32,396
value for being a member
1187
00:40:32,930 --> 00:40:34,598
and doing things that are open
1188
00:40:34,598 --> 00:40:37,134
and freely available yeah well i mean i
1189
00:40:37,134 --> 00:40:38,736
think uh if we think about what
1190
00:40:38,736 --> 00:40:40,371
democratizes information
1191
00:40:40,905 --> 00:40:42,573
we're old enough now to where we can
1192
00:40:42,573 --> 00:40:44,875
remember a time i mean before the
1193
00:40:44,909 --> 00:40:46,343
internet you know i remember
1194
00:40:46,410 --> 00:40:47,711
i remember being young and if you knew
1195
00:40:47,711 --> 00:40:50,047
facts about rock bands in
1196
00:40:50,047 --> 00:40:51,081
high school i mean if you
1197
00:40:51,182 --> 00:40:52,449
knew certain facts about the grateful
1198
00:40:52,449 --> 00:40:54,185
dead or shows they'd done or something
1199
00:40:54,218 --> 00:40:55,252
you know you'd say oh well
1200
00:40:55,553 --> 00:40:58,422
you know there's a bootleg of you know a
1201
00:40:58,456 --> 00:41:00,891
conference conference concert
1202
00:41:00,891 --> 00:41:02,059
they did in winter land in a
1203
00:41:02,059 --> 00:41:04,361
particular year and the particular song
1204
00:41:04,795 --> 00:41:06,730
was great you know that
1205
00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:07,998
that was there was some
1206
00:41:08,432 --> 00:41:10,434
sort of uh that was cool there was some
1207
00:41:10,501 --> 00:41:12,136
aesthetic to it you know we all sort of
1208
00:41:12,136 --> 00:41:12,837
have the hitchhiker's
1209
00:41:12,837 --> 00:41:14,805
guide to the galaxy in our hand right we
1210
00:41:14,805 --> 00:41:16,974
all have access to internet um
1211
00:41:16,974 --> 00:41:18,442
and that's democratized a lot
1212
00:41:18,442 --> 00:41:23,647
um do you think that uh that in some ways
1213
00:41:23,647 --> 00:41:24,381
the scientific
1214
00:41:24,381 --> 00:41:26,250
communities should be moving past
1215
00:41:26,684 --> 00:41:28,786
uh physical interfaces and there should
1216
00:41:28,786 --> 00:41:30,454
be well it's an interesting
1217
00:41:31,222 --> 00:41:33,090
discussion which comes up at
1218
00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:36,660
our hbm as we try and go to parts of the
1219
00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:39,897
world and we do go to you
1220
00:41:39,897 --> 00:41:42,733
know it's in a different city
1221
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,202
you know it's usually in europe southeast
1222
00:41:45,202 --> 00:41:47,671
asia australia twice now
1223
00:41:47,705 --> 00:41:48,906
north america including
1224
00:41:48,906 --> 00:41:51,175
canada of the united states we're looking
1225
00:41:51,175 --> 00:41:52,610
at going to latin or
1226
00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:55,012
central america so taking the
1227
00:41:55,012 --> 00:41:57,648
meeting to places where people can't
1228
00:41:57,648 --> 00:42:01,685
travel versus just giving access online
1229
00:42:01,685 --> 00:42:02,653
to all the information
1230
00:42:02,653 --> 00:42:04,922
but there's definitely advantages in my
1231
00:42:04,922 --> 00:42:07,191
experience of face-to-face meetings
1232
00:42:07,558 --> 00:42:08,692
there's a lot of networking
1233
00:42:08,726 --> 00:42:10,528
that goes on there's a lot of
1234
00:42:10,528 --> 00:42:11,996
intellectual exchange in a
1235
00:42:11,996 --> 00:42:13,764
very intense couple of days
1236
00:42:14,131 --> 00:42:15,933
there's question and answers there's
1237
00:42:15,966 --> 00:42:18,369
there's value in my mind to the
1238
00:42:18,369 --> 00:42:19,870
face-to-face meetings
1239
00:42:20,337 --> 00:42:22,940
beyond the online content and during
1240
00:42:22,973 --> 00:42:25,943
covid for one or two years oh
1241
00:42:25,943 --> 00:42:27,912
bm's annual meeting was purely
1242
00:42:27,912 --> 00:42:30,981
virtual and um you know i think it
1243
00:42:30,981 --> 00:42:32,650
struggled to have the same sort of
1244
00:42:32,650 --> 00:42:34,251
vibrancy and the same sort of
1245
00:42:34,685 --> 00:42:36,987
intellectual value that it has in
1246
00:42:36,987 --> 00:42:39,323
face-to-face meetings even though the
1247
00:42:39,323 --> 00:42:40,491
people who put those
1248
00:42:40,491 --> 00:42:42,092
meetings together put a lot of energy
1249
00:42:42,092 --> 00:42:44,361
into it you know what's really
1250
00:42:44,361 --> 00:42:45,563
interesting when you ask me
1251
00:42:45,563 --> 00:42:48,332
now that i'm chair of our hbm what sort
1252
00:42:48,332 --> 00:42:51,201
of role we had our hbm in
1253
00:42:51,302 --> 00:42:54,572
britain on the ancestral lands
1254
00:42:54,572 --> 00:42:57,141
of the tuck yagura people and at the end
1255
00:42:57,141 --> 00:42:58,409
look i walked around
1256
00:42:58,409 --> 00:43:00,210
because i needed to make sensible
1257
00:43:00,244 --> 00:43:02,780
remarks at the closing ceremony as the
1258
00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:04,248
chair and next year at the opening
1259
00:43:04,248 --> 00:43:06,350
ceremony so um you know
1260
00:43:06,383 --> 00:43:07,851
i went to heaps of talks i went to the
1261
00:43:07,851 --> 00:43:09,019
poster room i went to the
1262
00:43:09,019 --> 00:43:11,455
sponsors room by virtue of
1263
00:43:11,755 --> 00:43:13,824
sense of responsibility i went to club
1264
00:43:13,824 --> 00:43:16,794
night i went and viewed
1265
00:43:16,794 --> 00:43:19,496
the student postdocs night i
1266
00:43:19,897 --> 00:43:22,766
moved vigorously on the dance floor i've
1267
00:43:22,766 --> 00:43:26,270
seen photographs that uh might be
1268
00:43:26,270 --> 00:43:27,605
described as dancing
1269
00:43:28,072 --> 00:43:31,342
and um i looked at people yarning which
1270
00:43:31,342 --> 00:43:32,443
is a sort of australian
1271
00:43:32,443 --> 00:43:33,877
term it's an indigenous term
1272
00:43:34,311 --> 00:43:36,080
and that was the whole fabric of the of
1273
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,047
the meeting and then when
1274
00:43:37,047 --> 00:43:38,248
i went to do the closing
1275
00:43:38,248 --> 00:43:41,619
ceremony and i thought we we had um an
1276
00:43:41,619 --> 00:43:44,121
aunty open and welcome to country i i
1277
00:43:44,121 --> 00:43:44,722
thought well what are
1278
00:43:44,722 --> 00:43:46,957
some of the murals that indigenous people
1279
00:43:46,957 --> 00:43:47,925
have done of meeting in
1280
00:43:47,992 --> 00:43:50,127
in brisbane and sure enough
1281
00:43:50,394 --> 00:43:52,029
you know i found a beautiful mural there
1282
00:43:52,029 --> 00:43:53,063
was the river it was
1283
00:43:53,063 --> 00:43:54,498
an artwork not a mural
1284
00:43:54,798 --> 00:43:57,635
uh there was the yarning circles big ones
1285
00:43:57,768 --> 00:43:58,268
i don't know what that
1286
00:43:58,268 --> 00:43:59,870
is yarning circle is a
1287
00:44:00,137 --> 00:44:01,972
physical depiction of people sitting
1288
00:44:01,972 --> 00:44:05,342
around having a yarn and there there can
1289
00:44:05,342 --> 00:44:07,277
be big yarning circles
1290
00:44:07,277 --> 00:44:09,013
that everyone comes to there can be a
1291
00:44:09,013 --> 00:44:09,880
yarning circles for
1292
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,549
women's business we had a women's
1293
00:44:12,683 --> 00:44:16,253
special interest group or i should say a
1294
00:44:16,253 --> 00:44:17,488
round table we had round
1295
00:44:17,488 --> 00:44:18,622
tables they're basically
1296
00:44:18,622 --> 00:44:22,192
yarning circles um we had the ecrs and in
1297
00:44:22,192 --> 00:44:23,127
this big beautiful
1298
00:44:23,127 --> 00:44:24,862
picture you could see the young
1299
00:44:24,862 --> 00:44:27,431
spirits dancing around and you could see
1300
00:44:27,431 --> 00:44:28,699
elements of nature because
1301
00:44:28,699 --> 00:44:30,134
people went jogging in the
1302
00:44:30,134 --> 00:44:31,101
morning and they jogged through the
1303
00:44:31,101 --> 00:44:33,704
botanical garden and uh it
1304
00:44:33,804 --> 00:44:36,473
occurred to me uh without too
1305
00:44:36,473 --> 00:44:38,642
many interruptions without too many um
1306
00:44:38,675 --> 00:44:41,745
top down interference without the
1307
00:44:41,745 --> 00:44:43,280
political interference
1308
00:44:43,614 --> 00:44:46,884
humans over thousands of years
1309
00:44:46,884 --> 00:44:49,620
self-organize to have to
1310
00:44:49,620 --> 00:44:51,355
yarn to meet in different
1311
00:44:51,822 --> 00:44:55,626
forums to to talk in big circles small
1312
00:44:55,626 --> 00:44:58,395
circles to have nature to
1313
00:44:58,395 --> 00:45:00,164
have dance you know dancing is a
1314
00:45:00,164 --> 00:45:02,166
big part of our culture you mentioned
1315
00:45:02,433 --> 00:45:04,902
heavy metal it's more head-panging than
1316
00:45:04,902 --> 00:45:06,303
dancing although it's
1317
00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:08,739
sorry to the heavy pants i'm sure there's
1318
00:45:08,739 --> 00:45:10,140
many types of there's some
1319
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:13,177
nuances there yeah uh dance
1320
00:45:13,177 --> 00:45:16,146
is part of european history dance is part
1321
00:45:16,146 --> 00:45:17,081
of indigenous culture a
1322
00:45:17,081 --> 00:45:19,183
huge part that's how i see
1323
00:45:19,183 --> 00:45:23,353
OHBM you know we have to promote and
1324
00:45:23,353 --> 00:45:24,555
support these
1325
00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:27,124
discussions and vibrant discussions
1326
00:45:27,858 --> 00:45:32,229
but um prevent too much of reinvention
1327
00:45:32,996 --> 00:45:35,499
prevent too much top down
1328
00:45:35,532 --> 00:45:37,501
um activism which we see at
1329
00:45:37,501 --> 00:45:39,536
institutes a new director comes along and
1330
00:45:39,536 --> 00:45:40,237
wants to have their
1331
00:45:40,237 --> 00:45:42,573
footprint so they have all these
1332
00:45:42,873 --> 00:45:45,342
uh you know they're reinventing stuff
1333
00:45:45,342 --> 00:45:46,744
they're spending all this money and
1334
00:45:46,777 --> 00:45:47,978
leaving their legacy
1335
00:45:48,545 --> 00:45:50,280
and i think the best role i can do as
1336
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,717
chair is you know to curate all the
1337
00:45:53,717 --> 00:45:54,885
yarning circles and to
1338
00:45:54,885 --> 00:45:58,055
listen and to collaborate and to hear
1339
00:45:58,055 --> 00:45:58,889
things that might be
1340
00:45:58,922 --> 00:46:00,190
uncomfortable and bring them
1341
00:46:00,491 --> 00:46:03,026
back into the organization but not to
1342
00:46:03,026 --> 00:46:05,028
meddle not to think i can do things
1343
00:46:05,028 --> 00:46:06,830
better than other people
1344
00:46:06,830 --> 00:46:08,966
who have been contributing and who are
1345
00:46:08,966 --> 00:46:12,269
contributing to OHBM and it's
1346
00:46:12,269 --> 00:46:13,237
a meeting with a lot of young
1347
00:46:13,237 --> 00:46:16,707
people typically at an OHBM there's like
1348
00:46:16,707 --> 00:46:17,741
30 percent of people are
1349
00:46:17,741 --> 00:46:18,976
coming for the first time
1350
00:46:19,443 --> 00:46:20,444
another 30 percent of
1351
00:46:20,444 --> 00:46:22,579
amcr's i think that's fantastic
1352
00:46:24,915 --> 00:46:27,117
something you and i talked about uh this
1353
00:46:27,117 --> 00:46:29,720
morning and i think it
1354
00:46:29,787 --> 00:46:32,322
it's worth discussing is the
1355
00:46:32,856 --> 00:46:36,126
um the role of journals and the
1356
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,861
connections between societies and
1357
00:46:37,861 --> 00:46:39,329
journals and one of the
1358
00:46:39,496 --> 00:46:41,565
you know we talked about uh the journal
1359
00:46:41,565 --> 00:46:43,367
of neuroscience and how
1360
00:46:44,001 --> 00:46:45,335
i you know sort of feel
1361
00:46:45,736 --> 00:46:47,938
my personal opinion is that rather than
1362
00:46:47,938 --> 00:46:49,139
being a glamour journal
1363
00:46:49,540 --> 00:46:50,407
where it's associated with
1364
00:46:50,407 --> 00:46:52,276
prestige that it should be associated
1365
00:46:52,276 --> 00:46:54,211
purely with quality and there shouldn't
1366
00:46:54,211 --> 00:46:55,412
be there shouldn't be
1367
00:46:55,412 --> 00:46:57,848
a top down uh you know sort of on the
1368
00:46:57,848 --> 00:46:59,783
level of editors and and and
1369
00:46:59,783 --> 00:47:00,784
then maybe the reviewers the
1370
00:47:00,784 --> 00:47:02,286
editors pick the determination of what's
1371
00:47:02,319 --> 00:47:03,987
fashionable and what's not but
1372
00:47:03,987 --> 00:47:05,422
instead it should be more just
1373
00:47:05,422 --> 00:47:07,791
that once quality criteria have been met
1374
00:47:07,791 --> 00:47:08,792
and and it's assessed
1375
00:47:08,792 --> 00:47:10,894
for it you know is it is it
1376
00:47:10,894 --> 00:47:13,430
reproducible is it uh technically correct
1377
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:14,331
in terms of how data
1378
00:47:14,698 --> 00:47:15,999
we're not we're analyzed and
1379
00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:17,634
are there claims that are directly false
1380
00:47:17,634 --> 00:47:18,468
viable that are in it
1381
00:47:18,602 --> 00:47:19,603
that maybe it should then be
1382
00:47:19,603 --> 00:47:21,138
published and there should be a secondary
1383
00:47:21,572 --> 00:47:24,174
um the secondary market for
1384
00:47:24,208 --> 00:47:25,909
prestige by the community and
1385
00:47:25,909 --> 00:47:27,611
that because it's the the purpose of it
1386
00:47:27,611 --> 00:47:28,679
is to serve the needs of a
1387
00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,381
society um having connections
1388
00:47:31,381 --> 00:47:35,586
between journals within um a uh within a
1389
00:47:35,586 --> 00:47:36,553
certain community and the
1390
00:47:36,553 --> 00:47:38,789
societies uh that that are
1391
00:47:38,789 --> 00:47:40,257
substrate for the gathering of those
1392
00:47:40,257 --> 00:47:43,460
individuals it's good to foster sort of a
1393
00:47:43,460 --> 00:47:44,394
literature community
1394
00:47:44,394 --> 00:47:45,963
and i think that i don't know if you
1395
00:47:45,963 --> 00:47:47,331
could uh we were talking
1396
00:47:47,331 --> 00:47:48,532
a little bit about the um
1397
00:47:49,032 --> 00:47:50,400
the awards associated with that i think
1398
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,201
it's really neat because
1399
00:47:51,201 --> 00:47:52,736
a big career milestone for
1400
00:47:52,736 --> 00:47:56,039
dora was when she uh had the um the top
1401
00:47:56,039 --> 00:47:57,241
paper of the year in human
1402
00:47:57,241 --> 00:47:58,876
brain mapping in 2012 that was
1403
00:47:58,876 --> 00:48:01,712
like a big thing congratulations yeah
1404
00:48:01,778 --> 00:48:04,047
it's not 12 years ago but or
1405
00:48:04,047 --> 00:48:06,283
13 years ago but uh i think it'd
1406
00:48:06,283 --> 00:48:07,451
be interesting to hear from your
1407
00:48:07,451 --> 00:48:11,121
perspective about the role that the
1408
00:48:11,622 --> 00:48:13,223
society should have in
1409
00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:16,093
the production of or the dissemination of
1410
00:48:16,093 --> 00:48:17,294
scientific content and
1411
00:48:17,294 --> 00:48:18,896
the constraints and boundary
1412
00:48:18,896 --> 00:48:20,564
conditions that they should place on that
1413
00:48:21,565 --> 00:48:23,233
well you know our hbm
1414
00:48:23,367 --> 00:48:25,269
doesn't typically traditionally
1415
00:48:25,269 --> 00:48:27,537
didn't have a society and didn't have a
1416
00:48:27,537 --> 00:48:28,672
society journal like the
1417
00:48:28,672 --> 00:48:29,973
society for neuroscience
1418
00:48:30,641 --> 00:48:33,710
but when this ambition to create the
1419
00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:35,279
human brain mapping project
1420
00:48:35,279 --> 00:48:37,047
or something like it came about
1421
00:48:37,648 --> 00:48:40,217
uh there were two journals that were
1422
00:48:40,217 --> 00:48:41,351
launched human brain
1423
00:48:41,351 --> 00:48:42,886
mapping and your image
1424
00:48:43,453 --> 00:48:47,691
at that time in the 90s most non-society
1425
00:48:47,691 --> 00:48:49,526
journals were published by
1426
00:48:49,927 --> 00:48:51,428
for commercial publishing
1427
00:48:51,428 --> 00:48:56,667
houses like el severe wiley springer and
1428
00:48:56,667 --> 00:48:58,435
so the journals which now
1429
00:48:58,435 --> 00:48:59,603
include brain structure and
1430
00:49:00,470 --> 00:49:02,739
were published by those commercial
1431
00:49:02,739 --> 00:49:04,808
entities but they were still community
1432
00:49:04,808 --> 00:49:06,376
journals so they were
1433
00:49:06,376 --> 00:49:09,579
still if you went to our hbm 90 of the
1434
00:49:09,579 --> 00:49:10,781
content was published in
1435
00:49:10,781 --> 00:49:11,915
one of those three journals
1436
00:49:12,215 --> 00:49:13,984
and people were very proud of their work
1437
00:49:13,984 --> 00:49:15,018
and the journey and the
1438
00:49:15,018 --> 00:49:17,087
organization had journal awards
1439
00:49:17,087 --> 00:49:20,190
for those papers and you know the editors
1440
00:49:20,223 --> 00:49:21,758
these were these were
1441
00:49:21,758 --> 00:49:23,627
essentially society journals
1442
00:49:24,061 --> 00:49:26,330
the editors and the reviewers and the
1443
00:49:26,330 --> 00:49:28,165
editor in chief were regular
1444
00:49:28,165 --> 00:49:30,834
members of our hbm and so they
1445
00:49:30,834 --> 00:49:35,539
were seen as being legitimate vessels for
1446
00:49:35,539 --> 00:49:37,341
the communication and
1447
00:49:38,075 --> 00:49:40,043
over the years developed very
1448
00:49:40,043 --> 00:49:43,313
high rigorous standards um so that if you
1449
00:49:43,313 --> 00:49:44,781
looked at nature or nature
1450
00:49:44,781 --> 00:49:46,983
neuroscience at a neuroimaging
1451
00:49:46,983 --> 00:49:48,919
paper and you went to the reference list
1452
00:49:48,919 --> 00:49:51,788
90 of the how did we do
1453
00:49:51,788 --> 00:49:53,323
this papers were published in
1454
00:49:53,490 --> 00:49:56,994
image hbm and brain structure and
1455
00:49:56,994 --> 00:49:58,028
function particularly neuro
1456
00:49:58,028 --> 00:49:59,529
image which is a big journal
1457
00:50:00,030 --> 00:50:02,632
publishing a thousand papers a year now
1458
00:50:02,666 --> 00:50:03,967
you are the editor in chief
1459
00:50:04,001 --> 00:50:06,203
yeah so i went from being a
1460
00:50:06,203 --> 00:50:09,673
very erstwhile reviewer because i was a
1461
00:50:09,673 --> 00:50:12,275
methods trained person in
1462
00:50:12,275 --> 00:50:15,379
physics and a reliable reviewer
1463
00:50:15,712 --> 00:50:17,981
at some stage i became a handling editor
1464
00:50:18,014 --> 00:50:19,149
in the methods section
1465
00:50:19,783 --> 00:50:22,252
and then through a series of
1466
00:50:22,285 --> 00:50:25,622
gratuitous and other misadventures i
1467
00:50:25,622 --> 00:50:26,456
eventually became the
1468
00:50:26,456 --> 00:50:29,559
section editor for methods um and i
1469
00:50:29,626 --> 00:50:32,429
reliably handled therefore hundreds of
1470
00:50:32,429 --> 00:50:34,898
papers a year because it's
1471
00:50:34,898 --> 00:50:37,100
a very busy journal um and
1472
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:39,002
because neuro image was a technically
1473
00:50:39,002 --> 00:50:40,737
methods focused journal
1474
00:50:41,071 --> 00:50:42,706
and i was publishing methods
1475
00:50:42,706 --> 00:50:46,043
and modeling and once again proved that i
1476
00:50:46,043 --> 00:50:47,043
could handle a lot of
1477
00:50:47,043 --> 00:50:49,179
papers in my otherwise busy life
1478
00:50:49,713 --> 00:50:52,416
outgoing editor in chief so it was it was
1479
00:50:52,416 --> 00:50:53,583
kyle friston and then it
1480
00:50:53,583 --> 00:50:55,085
was peter vanetini and peter
1481
00:50:55,118 --> 00:50:57,421
handed over to me as the editor in chief
1482
00:50:57,921 --> 00:50:58,955
so i became the editor in
1483
00:50:58,955 --> 00:51:00,657
chief of this big journal
1484
00:51:01,124 --> 00:51:04,428
now in the meantime of course publishing
1485
00:51:04,461 --> 00:51:05,729
with for-profit journals
1486
00:51:05,729 --> 00:51:07,864
became seen as problematic
1487
00:51:08,065 --> 00:51:10,000
yeah um and what was happening in the
1488
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,202
background i wasn't particularly
1489
00:51:12,202 --> 00:51:13,437
ideological about it i mean
1490
00:51:13,437 --> 00:51:15,172
we're living in a capitalist society
1491
00:51:16,473 --> 00:51:19,142
for-profit vendors making imaging
1492
00:51:19,142 --> 00:51:20,444
scanners that we're giving
1493
00:51:20,444 --> 00:51:22,045
the money for the making a profit out of
1494
00:51:22,045 --> 00:51:24,381
research for-profit um
1495
00:51:24,981 --> 00:51:28,585
max i mean i didn't have an
1496
00:51:28,585 --> 00:51:30,787
ideological problem even though i'm left
1497
00:51:30,787 --> 00:51:32,989
oriented with a for-profit journal
1498
00:51:33,023 --> 00:51:35,058
publishing science but
1499
00:51:35,058 --> 00:51:36,960
it became obvious that the profit margins
1500
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,329
were pretty large yeah and
1501
00:51:39,362 --> 00:51:41,331
what what the bigger problem
1502
00:51:41,364 --> 00:51:44,501
was within the journal is the quality of
1503
00:51:44,734 --> 00:51:46,636
copy editing and journal
1504
00:51:46,636 --> 00:51:49,473
managing was on the way down
1505
00:51:49,473 --> 00:51:50,941
and we were getting a lot of complaints
1506
00:51:50,941 --> 00:51:52,209
because papers were being
1507
00:51:52,976 --> 00:51:56,179
copy edited poorly and lost in
1508
00:51:56,179 --> 00:51:58,115
the system because there was a handful of
1509
00:51:58,115 --> 00:52:00,283
journal managers and not one so it
1510
00:52:00,283 --> 00:52:01,585
becomes you're fighting
1511
00:52:01,618 --> 00:52:03,687
a battle on two fronts you're trying to
1512
00:52:03,687 --> 00:52:05,589
say neuro image which i thought was an
1513
00:52:05,589 --> 00:52:06,756
incredibly important
1514
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:10,994
journal as a legacy journal which people
1515
00:52:10,994 --> 00:52:12,729
can trust the field with
1516
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:14,364
through the rigor of peer
1517
00:52:14,364 --> 00:52:17,701
review but is being published by a
1518
00:52:17,701 --> 00:52:19,736
for-profit company and then
1519
00:52:19,736 --> 00:52:21,605
on the other hand complaints
1520
00:52:21,605 --> 00:52:23,206
coming in because people's papers are
1521
00:52:23,206 --> 00:52:26,576
being copy edited badly and
1522
00:52:26,576 --> 00:52:27,611
at some point it just gets
1523
00:52:27,611 --> 00:52:30,847
ridiculous and so one thing we did when i
1524
00:52:30,847 --> 00:52:31,848
was in neuro image is we
1525
00:52:31,848 --> 00:52:33,250
flipped to open access so that
1526
00:52:33,283 --> 00:52:35,418
everybody could read you didn't have to
1527
00:52:35,418 --> 00:52:36,720
pay to read everything
1528
00:52:36,753 --> 00:52:38,655
came out of the paywall and i
1529
00:52:38,655 --> 00:52:40,290
think that was logically the best thing
1530
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:42,058
to do next but it became
1531
00:52:42,058 --> 00:52:43,727
very expensive then to publish
1532
00:52:44,194 --> 00:52:46,463
and i had colleagues in argentina and
1533
00:52:46,463 --> 00:52:48,632
brazil saying this might be fine for you
1534
00:52:48,932 --> 00:52:50,433
but how are we going to pay five thousand
1535
00:52:50,433 --> 00:52:52,402
dollars to pub publish our
1536
00:52:52,402 --> 00:52:55,705
work and um the price went up
1537
00:52:56,072 --> 00:52:57,941
and all these other problems continue to
1538
00:52:57,941 --> 00:52:59,876
exist the problem with
1539
00:53:00,544 --> 00:53:03,213
for-profit publishing and the
1540
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,148
quality of the service that we were
1541
00:53:05,148 --> 00:53:07,184
getting and i stepped over
1542
00:53:07,217 --> 00:53:08,652
to the new editor in chief in
1543
00:53:08,685 --> 00:53:11,755
steve smith uh there were calls at that
1544
00:53:11,755 --> 00:53:13,757
stage to move the whole
1545
00:53:13,757 --> 00:53:16,059
editorial team to a non-profit
1546
00:53:17,594 --> 00:53:21,665
platform i wasn't sure in my mind and
1547
00:53:21,665 --> 00:53:22,332
that was coming to the
1548
00:53:22,332 --> 00:53:25,035
editor my eic time that i was the
1549
00:53:25,035 --> 00:53:27,804
right person to do that um i was pretty
1550
00:53:27,804 --> 00:53:29,072
confident that steve smith
1551
00:53:29,072 --> 00:53:30,574
was the right person to do that
1552
00:53:31,074 --> 00:53:33,143
and he didn't need michael break spears
1553
00:53:33,176 --> 00:53:35,745
endorsement he just to do that yeah he
1554
00:53:35,745 --> 00:53:36,813
just needed you know we
1555
00:53:36,813 --> 00:53:39,416
had a great relationship and i entrusted
1556
00:53:39,416 --> 00:53:41,451
him to be a great editor in chief and
1557
00:53:41,451 --> 00:53:42,452
bring along the team
1558
00:53:42,485 --> 00:53:47,224
which he's done remarkably well and taken
1559
00:53:47,224 --> 00:53:48,058
that journal to a
1560
00:53:48,058 --> 00:53:51,328
non-profit mit press well but the
1561
00:53:51,328 --> 00:53:53,296
journal there is still a journal called
1562
00:53:53,496 --> 00:53:56,733
so i don't know if the uh you know our
1563
00:53:56,733 --> 00:53:58,335
audience may not know
1564
00:53:58,935 --> 00:54:01,471
so newer image continues to exist when i
1565
00:54:01,471 --> 00:54:02,505
was editor in chief
1566
00:54:02,572 --> 00:54:04,040
its impact factor went up
1567
00:54:04,507 --> 00:54:07,310
as it had under a form of eic's on google
1568
00:54:07,310 --> 00:54:10,146
scholar in the category was
1569
00:54:10,146 --> 00:54:12,182
basically nature neuroscience
1570
00:54:12,449 --> 00:54:14,551
neuron and newer image consistently was
1571
00:54:14,551 --> 00:54:15,485
the third most
1572
00:54:15,485 --> 00:54:17,287
impactful journal in the field
1573
00:54:17,854 --> 00:54:20,257
to take that to a new publishing house
1574
00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:22,225
with a new title for the
1575
00:54:22,225 --> 00:54:24,094
whole editorial team including the
1576
00:54:24,094 --> 00:54:26,730
ic takes a bit of guts and they've done
1577
00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:28,198
that with a new title imaging
1578
00:54:28,198 --> 00:54:29,799
so they got mad and left right
1579
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:33,470
they don't get mad they make a series of
1580
00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:34,638
requests to the
1581
00:54:34,638 --> 00:54:36,106
publisher that weren't met
1582
00:54:36,539 --> 00:54:38,508
so they rationally left i don't think it
1583
00:54:38,508 --> 00:54:41,111
was an act of anger i think
1584
00:54:41,111 --> 00:54:43,113
it was the right thing to do
1585
00:54:43,113 --> 00:54:46,016
for the community and it and mit press
1586
00:54:46,082 --> 00:54:47,550
offered to meet those
1587
00:54:48,118 --> 00:54:50,787
requirements but they're also for
1588
00:54:51,388 --> 00:54:53,957
now they're non-profit mit is not okay so
1589
00:54:53,957 --> 00:54:54,691
it's a non-profit
1590
00:54:54,691 --> 00:54:57,160
publishing house with excellent
1591
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,695
because i've been an editor for network
1592
00:54:58,695 --> 00:55:00,363
neuroscience absolutely
1593
00:55:00,363 --> 00:55:01,965
fantastic journal management
1594
00:55:02,298 --> 00:55:05,502
absolutely fantastic uh copy editing
1595
00:55:05,502 --> 00:55:06,302
they've shown they can
1596
00:55:06,302 --> 00:55:08,838
do it from the article
1597
00:55:08,838 --> 00:55:11,708
publication cost is like a third of what
1598
00:55:11,708 --> 00:55:13,209
it was and is it open
1599
00:55:13,209 --> 00:55:15,545
access yeah it's pay to publish
1600
00:55:15,578 --> 00:55:17,580
but it's much cheaper it's about thirteen
1601
00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:18,481
hundred dollars compared
1602
00:55:18,481 --> 00:55:20,283
to five thousand dollars and
1603
00:55:20,283 --> 00:55:22,686
people know that money is gone to publish
1604
00:55:22,686 --> 00:55:24,254
the paper it's not just a
1605
00:55:24,254 --> 00:55:27,190
pdf there has to be there's
1606
00:55:27,223 --> 00:55:30,293
you have to pay for the machinery of
1607
00:55:30,293 --> 00:55:32,862
publishing journal papers it does cost
1608
00:55:32,862 --> 00:55:34,197
it's not just putting
1609
00:55:34,197 --> 00:55:36,566
a pdf on archive an archive costs money
1610
00:55:37,067 --> 00:55:38,368
it's the machinery there's
1611
00:55:38,368 --> 00:55:40,303
a journal manager there's
1612
00:55:40,503 --> 00:55:43,707
pay to pay the software to do it etc etc
1613
00:55:43,907 --> 00:55:45,275
the other for-profit journals
1614
00:55:45,308 --> 00:55:47,077
neuro image continues to exist
1615
00:55:47,143 --> 00:55:51,047
with different editors it's not the most
1616
00:55:51,481 --> 00:55:53,383
it used to be pretty
1617
00:55:53,917 --> 00:55:55,685
prestigious to be an editor in your
1618
00:55:55,685 --> 00:55:58,321
image it's lost some of that glamour yeah
1619
00:55:58,321 --> 00:55:59,689
that's for sure yeah your
1620
00:55:59,689 --> 00:56:01,091
image continues to exist with
1621
00:56:01,091 --> 00:56:03,693
the community-based editorial team and
1622
00:56:03,693 --> 00:56:05,195
the other for-profit journals
1623
00:56:05,228 --> 00:56:08,398
human brain mapping and brain
1624
00:56:08,398 --> 00:56:11,000
and they continue to exist meanwhile OHBM
1625
00:56:11,067 --> 00:56:11,901
has launched its own
1626
00:56:11,901 --> 00:56:14,704
journal aperture neuro it's a
1627
00:56:14,704 --> 00:56:18,108
non-profit it's like what you hope that
1628
00:56:18,108 --> 00:56:19,876
the society for neuroscience should do
1629
00:56:20,176 --> 00:56:21,778
it's very much based on
1630
00:56:22,212 --> 00:56:26,349
technical developments it's there to host
1631
00:56:26,649 --> 00:56:28,118
nontraditional output
1632
00:56:28,118 --> 00:56:29,486
like jupiter notebooks
1633
00:56:29,619 --> 00:56:31,287
Google collaboration sheets,
1634
00:56:32,389 --> 00:56:35,191
GitHub sort of based reports.
1635
00:56:36,459 --> 00:56:38,495
When you do that, everything's anchored
1636
00:56:38,495 --> 00:56:40,096
to a PDF article that
1637
00:56:40,096 --> 00:56:41,164
then describes the Jupyter
1638
00:56:41,164 --> 00:56:42,031
Notebook or the...
1639
00:56:42,265 --> 00:56:45,001
No, you can, I think, publish the Jupyter
1640
00:56:45,001 --> 00:56:46,503
Notebook with a DOI.
1641
00:56:47,403 --> 00:56:48,571
And so that's been
1642
00:56:48,571 --> 00:56:49,773
going for a couple of years.
1643
00:56:49,973 --> 00:56:53,143
It is still on the upswing, I hope.
1644
00:56:53,877 --> 00:56:56,613
It has cost the society money to get it
1645
00:56:56,613 --> 00:56:57,714
supported and get it going.
1646
00:56:57,947 --> 00:57:00,917
Peter Banditini and Malar Shakhravati are
1647
00:57:00,917 --> 00:57:02,252
the editors in chief,
1648
00:57:02,252 --> 00:57:04,621
very, very skilled individuals
1649
00:57:05,822 --> 00:57:06,856
with a lot of editorial
1650
00:57:06,856 --> 00:57:07,991
experience between them.
1651
00:57:08,925 --> 00:57:10,760
And we hope that will continue to grow.
1652
00:57:11,194 --> 00:57:14,998
What place will the for-profit publishers
1653
00:57:14,998 --> 00:57:17,333
play in the future of
1654
00:57:17,801 --> 00:57:20,403
OHBM as a society is
1655
00:57:20,403 --> 00:57:22,238
obviously going to be up to debates.
1656
00:57:22,505 --> 00:57:23,506
It's certainly not up to
1657
00:57:23,506 --> 00:57:25,442
Michael Bragsby, the chair of RHBM.
1658
00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:29,679
If the outcome is properly, this change,
1659
00:57:29,679 --> 00:57:32,382
this path will be led by the community.
1660
00:57:33,082 --> 00:57:34,384
And obviously many people in the
1661
00:57:34,384 --> 00:57:35,518
community want to see
1662
00:57:35,752 --> 00:57:37,153
their papers that are published
1663
00:57:37,153 --> 00:57:38,788
in their editorial role in
1664
00:57:38,788 --> 00:57:40,390
for-profit journals valued.
1665
00:57:40,824 --> 00:57:42,058
And there's many other people in the
1666
00:57:42,058 --> 00:57:43,593
community who see the
1667
00:57:43,593 --> 00:57:45,228
future of nonprofit publishing
1668
00:57:45,261 --> 00:57:47,964
and society-based, non-traditional
1669
00:57:47,964 --> 00:57:51,034
publishing kept as cheaply as possible.
1670
00:57:51,634 --> 00:57:53,036
Yeah, there's a lot of future in those
1671
00:57:53,036 --> 00:57:54,137
roles, but they're
1672
00:57:54,137 --> 00:57:56,072
still kind of experimental.
1673
00:57:56,239 --> 00:57:58,474
Yeah, I mean, I particularly love PLOS
1674
00:57:58,474 --> 00:57:59,609
computational biology.
1675
00:57:59,609 --> 00:58:02,645
I think the PLOS model is noble.
1676
00:58:03,046 --> 00:58:06,716
I also feel like it's important to have
1677
00:58:06,716 --> 00:58:09,719
standards related to
1678
00:58:09,953 --> 00:58:11,621
publishing your data with your papers.
1679
00:58:13,923 --> 00:58:15,892
And I think that the connection to a
1680
00:58:15,892 --> 00:58:17,327
society is important.
1681
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,730
And it may be that the way to, you know,
1682
00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:21,531
the biggest problem,
1683
00:58:21,564 --> 00:58:23,867
right, the elephant in the room
1684
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:25,568
is that there are, let's say I've
1685
00:58:25,568 --> 00:58:27,437
published in prestigious
1686
00:58:27,437 --> 00:58:28,905
journals that help your career
1687
00:58:29,205 --> 00:58:31,975
and the open access fee, and we've all
1688
00:58:31,975 --> 00:58:34,510
published in these, it's like $10,000.
1689
00:58:35,278 --> 00:58:37,814
And you pay it because that helps the
1690
00:58:37,814 --> 00:58:39,215
career of the graduate student,
1691
00:58:39,215 --> 00:58:40,383
that potentially helps your career
1692
00:58:40,383 --> 00:58:41,484
depending upon where you are.
1693
00:58:42,619 --> 00:58:47,724
But I think that mechanisms to make it so
1694
00:58:47,724 --> 00:58:49,092
that papers stand out post
1695
00:58:49,092 --> 00:58:51,828
hoc can also be very high value.
1696
00:58:52,161 --> 00:58:54,097
You know, having awards associated with
1697
00:58:54,097 --> 00:58:55,865
papers and maybe a lot more of them,
1698
00:58:56,199 --> 00:59:01,337
or when specific metrics are set, you
1699
00:59:01,337 --> 00:59:02,071
have the equivalent of a
1700
00:59:02,071 --> 00:59:03,640
gold record for a paper,
1701
00:59:03,973 --> 00:59:04,941
and people can use that
1702
00:59:04,941 --> 00:59:05,975
for career advancement.
1703
00:59:06,910 --> 00:59:08,444
And, you know, if you have metrics for
1704
00:59:08,444 --> 00:59:09,045
these things to be
1705
00:59:09,045 --> 00:59:10,880
captured relatively short term,
1706
00:59:11,481 --> 00:59:12,482
you know, let's say over two-year
1707
00:59:12,482 --> 00:59:13,416
timescale, that can help
1708
00:59:13,416 --> 00:59:14,984
somebody who publishes a paper
1709
00:59:15,285 --> 00:59:16,352
as a graduate student.
1710
00:59:16,619 --> 00:59:18,588
And I think that having something that's
1711
00:59:18,588 --> 00:59:21,024
not so top-down, profit-driven,
1712
00:59:21,357 --> 00:59:22,358
and basically...
1713
00:59:23,226 --> 00:59:25,929
Everybody recognizes the value of having
1714
00:59:25,929 --> 00:59:27,063
papers acknowledged
1715
00:59:27,063 --> 00:59:29,232
with their inherent value.
1716
00:59:29,566 --> 00:59:30,533
And I mean, we should also
1717
00:59:30,533 --> 00:59:32,001
talk about the eLife model,
1718
00:59:32,635 --> 00:59:34,904
and the power back to the authors to
1719
00:59:34,904 --> 00:59:36,773
publish when they feel they've done
1720
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:37,707
a sufficient
1721
00:59:37,707 --> 00:59:38,942
answering of the peer review.
1722
00:59:38,942 --> 00:59:41,010
That's another experimental model that's
1723
00:59:41,010 --> 00:59:43,079
still very much a flux in motion.
1724
00:59:45,214 --> 00:59:47,216
You know, we did at NeuroImage still have
1725
00:59:47,216 --> 00:59:48,651
toolbox papers where the
1726
00:59:48,651 --> 00:59:50,553
data and the GitHub had to be...
1727
00:59:51,554 --> 00:59:53,489
Available for peer review.
1728
00:59:53,489 --> 00:59:55,391
So you can do those, but obviously the
1729
00:59:55,391 --> 00:59:58,995
more innovative your journal model is,
1730
00:59:58,995 --> 01:00:02,031
the better those are incorporated.
1731
01:00:02,365 --> 01:00:04,434
The PLOS model of post-publication
1732
01:00:04,434 --> 01:00:05,768
commentary, you know,
1733
01:00:06,002 --> 01:00:07,537
it's still pretty sparse.
1734
01:00:08,304 --> 01:00:09,505
A lot of papers aren't
1735
01:00:09,505 --> 01:00:10,606
getting a lot of commentary,
1736
01:00:10,673 --> 01:00:11,474
and maybe as a
1737
01:00:11,474 --> 01:00:12,742
community, we need to do better.
1738
01:00:12,775 --> 01:00:14,877
Yeah, I wasn't thinking for PLOS.
1739
01:00:14,911 --> 01:00:16,646
It hasn't quite had that.
1740
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:18,681
But, you know, when papers reached some
1741
01:00:18,715 --> 01:00:20,483
accolade by virtue of...
1742
01:00:21,884 --> 01:00:22,785
Let's say by virtue of
1743
01:00:22,785 --> 01:00:24,887
replication, by virtue of citation,
1744
01:00:25,855 --> 01:00:27,323
it would be nice if there
1745
01:00:27,323 --> 01:00:28,424
were a mechanism for that.
1746
01:00:28,591 --> 01:00:30,126
I mean, so one of the things that...
1747
01:00:30,426 --> 01:00:32,628
I mean, just to reflect back on OHBM,
1748
01:00:33,296 --> 01:00:35,298
that you see is that it's very much like
1749
01:00:35,331 --> 01:00:35,765
what Michael
1750
01:00:35,765 --> 01:00:36,766
Breakthrough was just saying,
1751
01:00:36,799 --> 01:00:38,635
is that it's very much community-driven.
1752
01:00:38,635 --> 01:00:40,403
So you see a lot of these initiatives
1753
01:00:40,403 --> 01:00:42,171
actually there coming together,
1754
01:00:42,538 --> 01:00:44,240
being driven by a lot
1755
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:45,208
of the young people,
1756
01:00:45,508 --> 01:00:47,176
a lot of the people who go, for example,
1757
01:00:47,176 --> 01:00:48,177
to the open sciences
1758
01:00:48,177 --> 01:00:49,779
room or to the brain hack,
1759
01:00:50,213 --> 01:00:52,382
they develop some of these things or have
1760
01:00:52,382 --> 01:00:53,983
some of these ideas and come together.
1761
01:00:53,983 --> 01:00:55,018
And you really see there that the
1762
01:00:55,018 --> 01:00:55,985
leadership is listening
1763
01:00:55,985 --> 01:00:56,753
to those young people.
1764
01:00:56,753 --> 01:00:57,620
So that's been kind of a
1765
01:00:57,620 --> 01:01:00,323
fun thing to see at OHBM.
1766
01:01:01,557 --> 01:01:03,059
That you don't necessarily see anywhere
1767
01:01:03,059 --> 01:01:04,227
else is how much it's
1768
01:01:04,227 --> 01:01:07,030
driven by the younger community,
1769
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:09,399
kind of having ideas
1770
01:01:09,432 --> 01:01:10,967
that come to fruition.
1771
01:01:10,967 --> 01:01:11,968
So it was the first
1772
01:01:11,968 --> 01:01:13,403
conference I actually attended,
1773
01:01:13,403 --> 01:01:15,805
it's kind of interesting to see that.
1774
01:01:16,105 --> 01:01:17,874
I should also mention we have our
1775
01:01:18,408 --> 01:01:19,575
scientific advisory
1776
01:01:19,575 --> 01:01:21,544
board, they're like our elders.
1777
01:01:22,578 --> 01:01:23,513
And they're really
1778
01:01:23,513 --> 01:01:25,281
valuable in terms of saying,
1779
01:01:25,815 --> 01:01:27,083
"Well, this sounds like an interesting
1780
01:01:27,083 --> 01:01:28,184
initiative, but we
1781
01:01:28,184 --> 01:01:30,053
tried that five years ago,
1782
01:01:30,053 --> 01:01:30,953
and we encounter these
1783
01:01:30,953 --> 01:01:32,422
particular sort of problems."
1784
01:01:34,691 --> 01:01:36,893
But maybe they tried them before the
1785
01:01:36,893 --> 01:01:38,127
technology was available,
1786
01:01:38,127 --> 01:01:39,796
so we should retry them.
1787
01:01:39,896 --> 01:01:41,064
It's always getting a
1788
01:01:41,064 --> 01:01:44,467
balance, getting a balance right.
1789
01:01:45,435 --> 01:01:47,603
Well, I think it's been really wonderful
1790
01:01:47,603 --> 01:01:48,604
having both of you here.
1791
01:01:48,738 --> 01:01:50,073
Having you come from Australia is a
1792
01:01:50,073 --> 01:01:52,075
unique privilege for us in Rochester.
1793
01:01:53,643 --> 01:01:54,944
I think Brian and I are
1794
01:01:55,111 --> 01:01:56,212
grateful for both your time.
1795
01:01:56,279 --> 01:01:56,713
Absolutely.
1796
01:01:56,746 --> 01:01:59,482
I think this is the kind of conversation
1797
01:01:59,482 --> 01:02:00,283
that needs to happen
1798
01:02:00,283 --> 01:02:01,818
more often to help drive
1799
01:02:02,285 --> 01:02:05,288
the scientific community away from, let's
1800
01:02:05,288 --> 01:02:09,726
say away from the models of the past.
1801
01:02:10,526 --> 01:02:13,930
And I think that in particular, having
1802
01:02:14,797 --> 01:02:16,065
things that transcend
1803
01:02:16,065 --> 01:02:17,867
borders and transcend specific
1804
01:02:17,867 --> 01:02:19,168
economic interests will be
1805
01:02:19,168 --> 01:02:20,737
important in coming years.
1806
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:22,138
Yeah, well, thank you.
1807
01:02:22,138 --> 01:02:23,272
And thank you for
1808
01:02:23,272 --> 01:02:24,807
Adora as well and joining.
1809
01:02:26,109 --> 01:02:27,643
One thing I will say, these
1810
01:02:27,643 --> 01:02:29,045
conversations are important.
1811
01:02:29,045 --> 01:02:30,079
I had a Twitter account
1812
01:02:30,079 --> 01:02:32,582
before it went dark, so to speak,
1813
01:02:32,582 --> 01:02:33,783
and very few people
1814
01:02:33,783 --> 01:02:35,184
now use that platform.
1815
01:02:35,451 --> 01:02:37,653
But in its heyday as Twitter, there was a
1816
01:02:37,653 --> 01:02:39,122
lot of science communication,
1817
01:02:39,155 --> 01:02:40,556
I used to always promote my
1818
01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:42,225
papers and my group's papers.
1819
01:02:42,592 --> 01:02:45,995
And one day I published on Twitter how to
1820
01:02:45,995 --> 01:02:47,396
review a paper, this sort
1821
01:02:47,396 --> 01:02:50,333
of time-honed approach of the
1822
01:02:50,466 --> 01:02:52,969
Bakespear group, and that easily had the
1823
01:02:52,969 --> 01:02:55,805
most likes and views of
1824
01:02:55,838 --> 01:02:57,707
my entire Twitter career.
1825
01:02:58,040 --> 01:02:59,575
And people still ask me about it.
1826
01:02:59,909 --> 01:03:01,711
So these sort of meta-science
1827
01:03:01,711 --> 01:03:03,679
conversations I think are very important.
1828
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:05,281
Well, thank you, Kai.
1829
01:03:05,381 --> 01:03:06,282
Thank you, Brian.
1830
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:07,283
Yeah, thank you.
1831
01:03:07,450 --> 01:03:07,984
Thank you.
1832
01:03:08,417 --> 01:03:09,152
Thanks for joining.