The Problem with Modern Physics with Sabine Hossenfelder

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This is StarTalk Cosmic Queries Edition. As always, I've got
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a co-host who's a stand-up comedian, Paul Mercurio. Paul, welcome
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back to StarTalk.
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Nice to see you again, Neil. Great to be back.
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And I'd like, I can count you as my friend
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that we had a couple of lunches together, and so... Yes.
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More than just my co-host.
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Yeah, you treat us to a great lunch and the
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three of us need to do that again soon. We
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were talking about that.
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That was really fun. Yeah, excellent, excellent. And so also,
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just some people, if they don't otherwise know you or
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they know you only a little bit, I first knew
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of your work as the warm-up guy for the audience for...
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for colbert's the late show then i see clips of
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you doing stand-up on the show.
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Yeah excuse me yeah i'm a big shot i don't
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think you realize that and uh i'm a one would
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call me an international superstar at least that one that
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one person would be.
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Me yeah or your mother or.
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My mother no i was well i left wall street
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to be a comedian so i'm just i think the
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word she uses is disappointment but um Yeah, no, I mean,
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Stephen and I go back to The Daily Show together.
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I was a writer-performer on that show.
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Excellent.
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And so, yes, I've been part of that DNA of
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those shows for a while. But yeah, that's where we
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got to know each other. Excellent. And you're always great
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on the show. You're always great.
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Oh, thank you. Thank you just as a guest. So today,
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we're tackling the big questions. The big questions. Got it.
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And that could mean different things to different people, but
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on this show, it means the big questions in the universe.
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Yes.
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And we combed the world. No, we combed the universe.
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And we found someone who just published a book titled
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Existential Physics, A Scientist's Guide to the Biggest Questions. And
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that person is in the house right now, except dialing
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in from Germany. We have Sabina Hassenfelder. Do I pronounce
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that right, Sabina?
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That was wonderful. Good to see you guys.
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Excellent, excellent. You're a theoretical physicist. And Paul, it's not
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that she's theoretically a physicist. I just want to clarify that.
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She's a theoretical physicist, a research fellow at the Frankfurt
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Institute of Advanced Studies, of course, in Germany. And you've
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got a popular YouTube channel called Science Without the Gobbledygook.
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How could you not tune into that with a name
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such as that? And one of my favorite works of
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hers is an earlier book that was indicting the expectation
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that elegance and beauty in math should guide science. And
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I agree Sabina with you a hundred percent that it
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has often derailed what could be an actual discovery because we,
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we lace our own, our own expectations on what the
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universe should be. Could you just comment on that briefly?
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Yeah, it's an ongoing disaster. It's still happening. It's not
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like it's over. Yeah, so my first book dealt with
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the question why there's been pretty much no progress in
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the foundations of physics in the past 50 years or
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so since the standard model was completed.
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So we've gotten stuck with all those big questions.
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What does dark matter? What is dark energy? How did
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the universe begin? And, you know, we still don't have
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a theory about everything.
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The standard model is It's the array of particles that
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we know exist in the universe and how they all
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fit together, how they interact, and what forces they enact
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upon each other. And that was quite an achievement coming
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out in the mid to late 20th century. And you're
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saying there hasn't been much fundamental progress since then?
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For what this theory development is concerned, no. So since.
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The time that the Standard Model was completed, so in
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the mid-1970s or something, loosely speaking, there have been a
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lot of experimental discoveries. A lot of the particles in
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the Standard Model had not been observed at the time, like,
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for example, the heavier quarks and stuff like this, of course.
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The Higgs.
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King's boson. Can't leave that out.
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Exactly.
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Right. Which was only experimentally confirmed 10 years ago, right?
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It just had the 10-year anniversary. But for what the
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mathematical structure is concerned, it hasn't changed.
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And Sabine, don't feel alone about this. We haven't been
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back to the moon in 50 years, okay? So you're
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not the only one.
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Is that because that so much information came out of
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that first tranche of discovery that Just sort of processing
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all of those different elements of knowledge just takes so
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much time that it's hard to sort of advance to
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another tranche. Is that one particular reason maybe?
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Well, the message that I'm trying to get across in
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the book is that the problem is that physicists got
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too enchanted by certain ideals of beauty. So what happened after.
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The development of the— So, Paul, her answer is no
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to that question. Excuse me. By the way, for the
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record— I'll translate.
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For the record, Sabina, I was this close to writing
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that book. You beat me to the punch by like
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an hour. I had it almost all done and then
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yours came out. And I'm like, you know what? Forget it.
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I'm not going to bother.
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What's an example of one of the most distracting beauty
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elements that people want to be true in the universe?
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Unification, I guess.
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So after this standard model was completed, there were a
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lot of physicists who thought it should be more unified.
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They were looking for this grand unified theory, which was pretty,
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you know, at the time, I think at the 70s, 80s,
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they thought it was pretty much around the corner. And
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it's out of this spirit that string theory was born.
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And what happened was that all the predictions that were
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made from those theories were falsified to the extent that
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they could be falsified. So now we're left with the
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non-falsifiable ideas.
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Yeah.
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So it was grand unification, also symmetry, supersymmetry.
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This is a good tradition, though. Einstein was headed there, right?
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So you don't want to be in the wake of
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Einstein's work?
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Well, for one thing, I think Einstein wasn't driven by symmetry,
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though it's certainly true that the way that we understand
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general relativity today, it's based on symmetries. But I think
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it wasn't Einstein's intention.
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But so what.
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Happened was that I think in the 70s, 80s, relying
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on symmetries was the next natural thing to do. It
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had worked before. So of course you do it again.
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But the problem was it didn't work. And physicists just
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didn't learn the lesson. So instead of saying, okay, we
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tried it.
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It didn't work.
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Let's move on and try something different. They tried the
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same thing over and over and over again. And basically
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they're still trying it. So how is it surprising that
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there's no progress?
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Hmm. So I bet you're popular at their parties.
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Yeah, I'm great fun.
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You get a lot of them. My invitation must have
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been lost in the mail.
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Exactly.
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Is it because they lack the security of their own
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analysis that they keep testing it over and over again?
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I mean, they're not insane, right? There must be some
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rationale in their mind that they keep retesting the same
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So maybe there's doubt in their own mind about their
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processes or their analysis?
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Yeah, I think there's not one factor to it, but
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a couple of them, which is why my book has
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300 pages.
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Yeah.
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If it was that short an answer, it wouldn't have
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been worth writing a book. So I think it's partly
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a lack of understanding of the philosophy of science. So
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I think that they're not really thinking about what's going on.
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So they don't recognize it's not working. And they try
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the same thing over and over again, even though good scientists,
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you know, you should use the scientific method. and not
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do this kind of thing. But it's also, I think
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it's a community problem. It's kind of baked into the
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way that academic communities work and the way that they
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are funded.
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It's just really, really hard to get out of some.
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Kind of research direction after you've spent a significant time
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of your career on it and do something else. There
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are very few physicists, and I know some of them,
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so they exist, who said, okay, so we've tried supersymmetry,
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it doesn't work. I'll stop it and do something else
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because it makes your life very, very difficult if you
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do this because all your funding goes out of the
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window and your whole track record has evaporated.
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So it's like being a one-trick pony like Def Leppard.
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It's like sort of just the same song over and
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over and you kind of get locked into it. Yeah.
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You know, I wrote in the piece for, I think
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it was, what's the UK thing?
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Physics World? Is this the, yeah. Physics Today is the
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US one and Physics World is the UK one.
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Yeah, so I wrote something for Physics World and I
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wrote advice for postdocs.
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Don't be a one-trick pony.
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My British friend was like, this is such an American idiom.
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Well, I'm a one trick pony. That's why I said it.
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So I just say the same thing.
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So what's Def Leppard's one trick pony?
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No, it's their songs. Everything sounds the same.
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Oh, everything sounds the same.
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It's over and over and over again. It's the same thing. Yeah.
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So Sabina, so that early work, that early book really
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puts you in a good way and positions you to
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take on a broader topic here, sort of existential questions.
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And so what prompted you to write this book?
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Oh, my first book is like really depressing.
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I mean, I was basically going on for those 300
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pages about why there's no progress in the foundation of
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physics and trying to explain what everybody else is doing wrong.
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Which, you know, doesn't exactly make me look like a
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particularly nice person.
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And it kind of, I felt that it was necessary
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to write the book because I thought someone's got.
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To say it, you know.
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There's no reason why the LHC should be seeing new particles,
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all those stories that they've told about dark matter.
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LHC, the Large Hadron Collider.
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Yeah, exactly that thing. You know, there have been all
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those stories. It would see supersymmetric particles or dark matter.
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It would make black holes and all that kind of stuff.
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And all those supposed predictions were based on arguments from beauty.
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And in my book, I explain this.
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But, you know, it kind of makes me this person
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who is always complaining about what.
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Other people do.
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And I'm kind of unhappy with the picture that I've
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painted of myself. So I was thinking, you know, I
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would try to remind myself why.
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I studied physics in the first place, which is that
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I was.
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Really intrigued by how much you can learn about nature
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from science.
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Pure mathematics, basically.
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You know, all those symmetries that we were just talking about,
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they're like really, really powerful tools that have taught us
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so much about how the universe works. And a lot
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of those stories haven't really been told to the public,
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like when it comes to those big existential questions.
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And so I've collected them in my book.
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Good.
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So you saw a gap that you're filling. Excellent. Excellent.
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So we got questions. We solicited questions from our Patreon
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fan base.
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Yes.
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And these are supporters of the show, and they get
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their questions on. So apparently you have to actually become
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a Patreon member in order to even get your question
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looked at, much less selected. So that's kinda cold, I think,
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but that's how that works. I didn't set up that rule,
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just to let you know. Our producers and other folks
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who pay the bills set up that rule, okay. So Paul,
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why don't you start off? You've got the questions. I
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haven't seen them or heard them. And I don't think
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Sabina has seen them, correct?
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No.
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So there's some really great questions this time around. So
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we're going to jump in with Quentin on microwaves.
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Hi.
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Do we know where these people are from?
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From Switzerland.
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Tell us where they're from. Why do you leave that out?
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I was about to say, hi, greetings from Switzerland before
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you started yelling at me, dad.
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Switzerland is where the LHC is. So this person is
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like on top of the situation.
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Yeah, I was reading his thing and it said, hi, guys,
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greeting from Switzerland. You see the tension, Sabina? This is
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how this goes. What more knowledge is there to gain
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by making more and more detailed measurements of of the
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cosmic microwave background. Love the show.
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I think the thing that everyone is looking after at
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the moment are the B-modes, right? They want to measure
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the polarization of the CMB to try and figure out
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if there were gravitational waves in the early universe.
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So that would be my best answer.
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Are you saying that there's nothing in there that can
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help you in your dark matter search?
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In the CMB?
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Well, me and my dark matter search, exactly what are
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you talking about?
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Are we all looking for dark matter?
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My personal satellite just launched.
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No, so, yeah, I mean, so the CMB does put
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constraints on dark matter. It's been doing this for some time.
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And every time the data gets better, then the parameters
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of Lambda CDM shift around for a little bit and
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people adjust their models. I don't think the CMB is
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the best tool to learn something about dark matter because
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it's just, you know, the overall dark matter fraction of
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the universe is one of those parameters.
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But what you really want to know.
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Like where the properties of the dark matter stuff, if
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it's stuff, become important is more on the smaller scales, galaxies,
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galaxy clusters. when you have to take into account how
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the stuff actually clumps.
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And there are some things.
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That you can do in the CMB, loosely speaking, because
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those structures give rise to gravitational lenses, so it distorts
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the CMB, and there's a fancy name for it, which
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escapes me at the moment, but this is how it
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goes with my brain. And you can look for this.
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So this is interesting, but it has fairly large error bars.
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So I think that the stuff with the B modes
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is more exciting if you want to understand how the
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universe evolves.
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So I have a slightly different outlook on that, Sabina,
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but we're going to get to that right when we
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come back from a break. We'll take our first break
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from Cosmic Queries, the big questions, and our special guest
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dialing in from... What town are you in right now, Sabina? Heidelberg.
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Heidelberg.
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Heidelberg, Heidelberg, dialing in from Heidelberg.
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I have great memories of Heidelberg.
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Hossenfelder. We'll be right back, and we'll learn maybe what
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Paul did in Heidelberg when we come back to StarTalk.
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You don't want to know.
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We're back, segment two, Cosmic Queries. We're talking about the
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big questions and the release of Sabina Hossenfelder's book, sabina
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give me the full title it's like existential.
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Existential physics a scientist's guide to life's biggest questions.
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There you go there you go and it's just always
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good to have someone in arm's reach with that kind
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of expertise because you just never know.
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By the way i have a book coming out peanut
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butter do you need jelly or don't.
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You yeah no i'm with you on that i'm with
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peanut butter doesn't need jelly i'm all good with the
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peanut butter.
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It's 400 pages. It's a very deep analysis. Sorry, Sabine,
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it's going to be competing with your book. I hope
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yours works out, but that's all I'm saying.
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All right, let's keep moving. So before the break, Paul,
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we got this question from this person in Switzerland wanting
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to know whatever more detailed measurements of the cosmic microwave
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background can do for us. Here's what I would say, Sabine,
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that if I'm at a distance and I see at
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home and I see a region around the home that's
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all green, and I say, oh, that's like a green
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carpet or something, okay? But then I get closer, or
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I look with higher resolution, and I say, no, wait
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a minute. There are blades of grass there. And then
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I say, okay, so it's a green thing made of
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blades of grass, and I look even closer. Wait, the
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blades of grass have cells in them, right? And so
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every next layer, I would not have even known to
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ask if that was there, until I had that extra
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resolution that empowered me to inquire in ways I had
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not previously imagined. So are you prepared to say that
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a higher, even higher resolution of the cosmic microwave background,
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there's nothing there for us? Like looking at a lawn
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of grass?
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No, of course, I would never say that. You never
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know what you're going to find.
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It's just my guess that we will have a bigger
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turnout from the B modes than from a higher resolution
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cosmic microwave background.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Can I ask, why is it that CMB gives us
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information about the nature of the universe just after the
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Big Bang, but not the last scattering? And has there
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been movement on that?
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Well, you know, the phrase just after the Big Bang
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is kind of ambiguous because.
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That's the best I can do.
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I'm a comedian.
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All the interesting things that happen in the early universe
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are right after the Big Bang, like in the first
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10 to the minus 10 seconds or something like this.
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So I'm afraid you have to be a little bit
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more specific.
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So I guess the point is the cosmic microwave background
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is several hundred thousand years after the Big Bang.
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Right, 380,000.
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Of what had unfolded before then. And so it gives
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us some insight into an earlier time, but maybe not
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as far back as you're otherwise indicating.
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As you're otherwise indicating. So what you say is, of course,
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entirely correct.
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It's kind of difficult to see Through all this plasma,
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which is opaque, there are several things that people have proposed.
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I mean, looking for those gravitational waves in the B-modes
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kind of allows you to look back to earlier times,
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at least if you trust the interpretation. People have also
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suggested to look for the neutrino cosmic microwave background, which
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should be there. So they have traveled undisturbed for a
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longer time. But the problem with the neutrinos is, well,
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they interact very weakly. So, you know, God knows how
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long it would take to measure the thing. Like maybe
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we'd be measuring, I don't know, 100,000 years or something.
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So don't expect results anytime soon.
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00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.000
Yeah. Neutrinos have always been very difficult. They don't play
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well with others.
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No, they don't at all. So, Paul, give me some
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more questions.
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Yeah. This is on wave function from Stephen Murphy. I'm
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not sure where this person is from, but If I
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understand quantum physics correctly, there is something about measurements that
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collapses the wave function. Some people, especially sci-fi authors, seem
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to believe our conscious observation of the measurement is what
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does the collapsing. How do we know that our observation...
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is not the key factor? I think we know. I
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think there's an esteemed scientist, Dr. Emmett Brown from Back
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00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.500
to the Future, who said, if you travel in the
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past and you play with the past, you're going to
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alter the future. So I think we could just move on.
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00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.640
We could just move on. Yes, exactly. We don't need
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Sabina to answer that.
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No.
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So Sabine, what do you have there, this collapse of
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the wave function?
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00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:17.630
Yeah, so I think this is something that people were
400
00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:20.670
really confused about in the early days of quantum mechanics.
401
00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:23.259
Like when the thing came up, it became clear that
402
00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:27.500
there's something going on in the measurement.
403
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.839
They didn't know what, and they made what's now known as.
404
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:35.480
The Heisenberg cut, which basically says, Wave function does one
405
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:37.569
thing when you're not looking at it. And when you
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00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:42.450
do look at it, it collapses into something that corresponds
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00:20:42.470 --> 00:20:47.799
to our classical reality. I don't think that today anybody
408
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.910
believes this or I mean, maybe I shouldn't. put it
409
00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:54.779
that strongly, but they're probably one or two weird people
410
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.220
who still believe that consciousness has something to do with
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00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:01.140
the collapse of the wave function. But certainly the vast
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00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.470
majority of physicists have abandoned this idea simply because we
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00:21:05.529 --> 00:21:08.769
know that we can make quantum measurements without the involvement
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of any conscious observer. We can do it with some
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00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.640
kind of apparatus that was programmed by a computer.
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00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:18.359
In the soon future, maybe we can do it with robots,
417
00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.900
or maybe this is already happening and I haven't gotten
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the memo.
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So what do we mean, what do we need consciousness for, basically,
420
00:21:28.930 --> 00:21:29.369
in the measurement?
421
00:21:29.390 --> 00:21:33.460
Sabine, you just missed a deep discovery. is that the
422
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.400
machines making the measurement are conscious, it's obvious.
423
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Oh right, so it's evidence for panpsychism.
424
00:21:41.069 --> 00:21:41.750
Exactly.
425
00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:43.829
It's an AI problem.
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00:21:43.869 --> 00:21:47.069
How could you have missed that revelation there? Come on.
427
00:21:48.549 --> 00:21:49.069
Yeah, right.
428
00:21:50.150 --> 00:21:55.819
So maybe more interestingly, it's like the opposite combination that
429
00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:00.900
quantum mechanics plays some kind of role for consciousness. It
430
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:04.640
has not completely gone out of the window. Maybe most prominently,
431
00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:09.950
it's represented by Roger Penrose, who thinks that... Something about
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00:22:09.990 --> 00:22:13.730
those quantum processes and the measurement, the collapse of the
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00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:16.789
wave function in particular, is necessary to give rise to
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00:22:16.829 --> 00:22:19.490
consciousness in the human brain. And I'm not at all
435
00:22:19.609 --> 00:22:22.230
convinced by this, but then he has won a Nobel
436
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:23.079
Prize and I haven't.
437
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:28.759
Yeah, he won it for black holes, not for, you know. consciousness,
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just to be clear.
439
00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:32.089
Yeah, so what does he know?
440
00:22:32.190 --> 00:22:33.190
Yeah, what an idiot.
441
00:22:34.349 --> 00:22:36.690
Everybody can have a know, but I have one.
442
00:22:37.730 --> 00:22:40.250
He's one of the most eminent among us in the
443
00:22:40.369 --> 00:22:44.440
physics and astrophysics universe, Roger Penrose. Still alive, still at it.
444
00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:46.910
And I think he's old enough so he can have
445
00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:50.789
some borderline flaky ideas, and you still end up giving
446
00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:54.450
it some respect. And so I think, Sabina, that's where
447
00:22:54.470 --> 00:22:56.569
it that's where you were landing there, I think.
448
00:22:56.869 --> 00:22:59.019
I mean, you know, by all chances, I just don't
449
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understand it.
450
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:04.059
So, so Paul.
451
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.859
Yeah. We're going to do time exists in black holes.
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00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:12.259
This is from Queensland, Queensland, Peter Jacobs, Australia. Where is,
453
00:23:13.059 --> 00:23:16.630
where it is a different time and a different day
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00:23:16.650 --> 00:23:20.230
and 293 degrees this winter morning. This is what Peter says.
455
00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:20.710
All right.
456
00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:23.130
Here's this question. Does time exist in a black hole?
457
00:23:23.230 --> 00:23:26.289
And if you travel through a wormhole, Could you end
458
00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:29.309
up in a different place in time and not be
459
00:23:29.390 --> 00:23:33.690
able to get back? Well, I don't know. If you're
460
00:23:33.710 --> 00:23:35.690
going to do air travel, by the way, Peter, right now,
461
00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:37.849
you're not getting it. You're not going anywhere because your
462
00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:42.359
place is going to be canceled. So you're not traveling
463
00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:44.500
through any wormhole anywhere, anytime.
464
00:23:44.539 --> 00:23:45.960
Try taking it anytime soon.
465
00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:47.559
Anytime soon. Exactly.
466
00:23:47.579 --> 00:23:49.920
Sabina, what happens? What's the fate of someone?
467
00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.720
Broadly, I'm thinking about the fate of someone in.
468
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:54.920
A wormhole and in a black hole, other than that
469
00:23:54.940 --> 00:23:58.920
they'll rip apart and die. Hold aside that complication.
470
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I'm still trying to digest the phrase, a different place
471
00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:06.190
in time, but I think I know what it means. Yeah,
472
00:24:06.230 --> 00:24:11.089
so the weird thing about Einstein's theory is that he
473
00:24:11.150 --> 00:24:17.039
made time into a coordinate, like space. And it has
474
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the consequence that the labels on those coordinates are kind
475
00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:23.079
of ambiguous. You can change them the same way that
476
00:24:23.140 --> 00:24:26.680
you can change the labels on your ruler from.
477
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.740
I don't know, inches to centimeters or something like this.
478
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:30.140
They don't really mean anything.
479
00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:36.779
So this coordinate time has to be enjoyed with a
480
00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:40.799
lot of care. If you want to interpret it, usually
481
00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:43.680
what we deal with in Einstein's theory is what's called
482
00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:45.839
the proper time. So this is the time that an
483
00:24:46.059 --> 00:24:49.900
observer would experience who would be traveling in this space-time.
484
00:24:50.710 --> 00:24:52.789
And for all we know, if you fall into a
485
00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:55.789
black hole or if you go through a wormhole, then
486
00:24:55.829 --> 00:24:58.670
your proper time just moves forward, so you get older.
487
00:24:59.289 --> 00:25:03.190
Where you come out in this coordinate time is a
488
00:25:03.210 --> 00:25:07.240
completely different question. And indeed, if you go through a wormhole,
489
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:10.140
you could in principle come out in the past according
490
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.680
to this coordinate time. And this is also why a
491
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:18.470
lot of physicists believe that wormholes exist are hugely problematic
492
00:25:18.529 --> 00:25:22.089
because they could lead to all kinds of paradoxes.
493
00:25:22.109 --> 00:25:23.970
You could go back in time and kill your grandfather,
494
00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:24.990
that kind of story.
495
00:25:26.670 --> 00:25:29.690
And why does everyone always talk about killing their ancestors?
496
00:25:29.990 --> 00:25:32.309
Why not just prevent them from meeting and then they
497
00:25:32.329 --> 00:25:34.869
don't marry and have babies? Why do I always got
498
00:25:34.890 --> 00:25:37.029
to kill them? I mean, what's, you know.
499
00:25:37.049 --> 00:25:39.690
Or you go back and you ask that girl or
500
00:25:39.730 --> 00:25:41.609
that guy out that you wanted to ask out on
501
00:25:41.650 --> 00:25:44.549
a date and you didn't and then you ended up in...
502
00:25:44.859 --> 00:25:47.319
with the person you're with, and that's not working out.
503
00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:49.059
I'm getting too personal right now.
504
00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:51.380
Yeah, I don't want to hear your issues.
505
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.480
Sabina, my wife and I are not talking, and I
506
00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:57.890
was wondering if you might be able to help.
507
00:25:58.970 --> 00:26:02.529
Is there a quantum relativity therapy session that is.
508
00:26:02.509 --> 00:26:03.730
In the air? Exactly.
509
00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:04.769
Wait for my next book.
510
00:26:06.829 --> 00:26:11.470
Exactly. So in traveling through the wormholes, They're really the
511
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:14.619
answer is you could end up anywhere at any time.
512
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:18.500
Is that sort of for the layperson? Is that sort
513
00:26:18.539 --> 00:26:21.400
of one of the answers there in a very crude way?
514
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.099
Mathematically, yes.
515
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.960
But no one's ever built a wormhole and we have
516
00:26:27.009 --> 00:26:30.170
no idea how to build one or if actually most
517
00:26:30.190 --> 00:26:33.250
physicists think it's not possible because it requires negative energy.
518
00:26:33.410 --> 00:26:37.450
So who knows? Mathematically, you can write it down.
519
00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:39.529
I can get you negative energy. Meet my mother. I
520
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:41.240
can get you negative energy.
521
00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:43.299
Suck the energy right out of a room.
522
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:47.400
Exactly. Why, why are you killing me?
523
00:26:47.420 --> 00:26:49.200
I don't see you.
524
00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:51.299
Meeting your mother makes you travel to the past.
525
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:54.059
Exactly.
526
00:26:54.259 --> 00:26:57.789
Well, so an important point that you just glossed over there, Sabina,
527
00:26:57.869 --> 00:27:00.230
that you go through into a black hole and you
528
00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:04.069
have what we call proper time, but that's as applies
529
00:27:04.130 --> 00:27:07.490
to you. So it doesn't really make sense to ask
530
00:27:08.210 --> 00:27:11.549
what is the time in a black hole? Because it
531
00:27:11.589 --> 00:27:14.509
has to reference someone who's making the measurement of a time.
532
00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:18.359
And then you can get different measurements depending on whose
533
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:21.660
coordinate is behaving in which way. Is that a fair
534
00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:24.289
way to sort of add nuance to what you just said?
535
00:27:25.539 --> 00:27:28.380
Yes, that's of course entirely correct. And it's also why
536
00:27:28.420 --> 00:27:31.480
people get confused about this issue that it takes seemingly
537
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:33.980
forever to cross the horizon of a black hole if
538
00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:37.089
you fall in. That's what you see from the outside.
539
00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:40.450
So an observer who sits outside and sees you falling
540
00:27:40.509 --> 00:27:44.049
into a black hole would just see you freeze as
541
00:27:44.069 --> 00:27:46.430
you get close to the horizon. But in your own
542
00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:49.609
proper time, if you fall in, it's a finite amount
543
00:27:49.630 --> 00:27:52.309
of time and it's a finite amount of time that
544
00:27:52.329 --> 00:27:54.990
it takes to hit the singularity. if there is a
545
00:27:55.029 --> 00:27:57.990
singularity in the black hole, which we don't really know,
546
00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:00.710
but assuming that there is one, it takes a finite
547
00:28:00.730 --> 00:28:01.329
amount of time.
548
00:28:02.430 --> 00:28:04.269
So, Paul, we can solve that question by you just
549
00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:07.779
visiting a black hole and see if there's a singularity there.
550
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.059
I am going to go. I'm taking Amtrak, just so
551
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:13.079
you know. I was going to take Delta, but you
552
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:15.559
know how they are. They never get anywhere on time. So,
553
00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:17.960
I'm sorry, Neil, real quick, and follow up to what
554
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:21.180
you just asked, and Sabina confirmed, you're saying, again, from
555
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.920
a layman's perspective, The person, the individual, and the time
556
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:32.339
and place at which that measurement is taking place specifically
557
00:28:32.380 --> 00:28:35.299
has an effect on the issue and the concept of time.
558
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:38.549
It's not a general answer in terms of what we
559
00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:40.809
mean by time. It's specific to who and when.
560
00:28:40.829 --> 00:28:43.150
I think classically you can think of this one time
561
00:28:43.569 --> 00:28:44.410
system everywhere.
562
00:28:44.430 --> 00:28:45.049
Right.
563
00:28:45.069 --> 00:28:47.170
And we learned in relativity that's just not the case.
564
00:28:47.710 --> 00:28:47.869
Right.
565
00:28:47.970 --> 00:28:50.390
If time is just another coordinate, then you can experience
566
00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:55.869
that coordinate in different ways. And so that's how I
567
00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:57.849
think about it, Sabina. Is that fair?
568
00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:00.599
Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary.
569
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:04.299
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you experienced straight time falling into
570
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.259
a black hole. Someone watching you, it would take forever
571
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.579
for them to see that happen. And you both have
572
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:13.480
perfectly legitimate- wristwatches making these measurements.
573
00:29:13.609 --> 00:29:15.869
And so what is the scientific measurement of a friend
574
00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:18.690
telling me a long-winded story that doesn't do anything for
575
00:29:18.730 --> 00:29:20.029
me in my life? The time.
576
00:29:20.210 --> 00:29:22.490
They're actually slowly falling into a black hole.
577
00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:26.470
Thank you. Thank you. That's exactly how I felt. I
578
00:29:26.529 --> 00:29:29.390
couldn't describe the feeling until now. I'm falling into a
579
00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:31.549
black hole, which is why when I talk to people now,
580
00:29:31.609 --> 00:29:33.950
I want to wear a welding helmet up. So if
581
00:29:34.029 --> 00:29:36.049
I find that the conversation is just going in a
582
00:29:36.109 --> 00:29:38.349
place that's just doing nothing for me, I just put
583
00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:40.930
the helmet down and that pretty much takes... you that
584
00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:43.750
we're done. That's the evidence, okay, that you're done. That's
585
00:29:43.789 --> 00:29:44.190
how I work.
586
00:29:44.910 --> 00:29:46.410
We've got time for one more question in this segment.
587
00:29:46.430 --> 00:29:51.180
Yeah, absolutely. Other universes inside the black hole. This is
588
00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:55.180
Ryan Gurantes and it says, hey everyone, I want to
589
00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:59.079
know how possible it is that inside black holes are
590
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.329
actually Other universes.
591
00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:05.289
Yeah, we've all heard this, Sabina. And it's kind of,
592
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.900
on the face of it, it's completely outlandish. How can
593
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:14.859
this giant sucking machine called a black hole be the
594
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.400
repository of an entire universe? And Sabina, you're going to
595
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.890
answer that question when we come back from this break. Okay.
596
00:30:24.609 --> 00:30:27.569
I want to know the answer too. Very nice. Damn it.
597
00:30:27.690 --> 00:30:29.609
What the hell is going on inside of a black hole?
598
00:30:29.910 --> 00:30:36.029
When StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the big questions continues. We're back.
599
00:30:36.069 --> 00:30:41.380
StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the big question. Sabina Hassenfelder. So she's
600
00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:43.880
got a new book out on the big questions, existential
601
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:48.960
questions in physics. And we're trying to get through some
602
00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:52.019
of these bigger questions about space, time, black holes and
603
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:54.500
the like. Sabina, how do we find you on social media?
604
00:30:56.049 --> 00:30:59.250
Well, you can find me on Facebook under my name,
605
00:30:59.329 --> 00:31:05.509
Sabine Hossenfelder, or on Twitter under the handle SKDH.
606
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:09.920
Those are my initials, just in case you wonder. And,
607
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:11.640
of course, on YouTube.
608
00:31:11.779 --> 00:31:14.259
And, of course, your big YouTube channel. And, Paul, we
609
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:15.420
find you on social media where?
610
00:31:15.930 --> 00:31:21.490
Yes. At S-K-K-B. No, that's yours. I was wondering why
611
00:31:21.529 --> 00:31:23.970
I was getting all of these really intense questions about
612
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:27.700
the quantum theory and you were probably getting ridiculous comments
613
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:32.240
about comedy. No, it's at Paul Mercurio. M-E-C-U-R-I-O.
614
00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:34.519
M-E-C, Mercurio.
615
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.829
Mercurio. I had to drop the first R because of
616
00:31:36.930 --> 00:31:37.869
the Australian actor.
617
00:31:38.660 --> 00:31:40.529
No, it's because you have a planet with that, and
618
00:31:40.549 --> 00:31:42.049
you didn't want to be confused for Mercury.
619
00:31:42.369 --> 00:31:48.849
That's true. I get confused with planets very often.
620
00:31:49.390 --> 00:31:51.529
Because Mercury's got its own Twitter stream, just to let
621
00:31:51.569 --> 00:31:51.809
you know.
622
00:31:51.849 --> 00:31:52.910
Exactly, exactly.
623
00:31:53.589 --> 00:31:56.410
So Sabina, I remember the question from the second segment.
624
00:31:56.690 --> 00:31:57.930
Who's the person who asked it, Paul?
625
00:31:59.049 --> 00:32:00.990
This is Ryan Gertes.
626
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:02.490
From?
627
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:04.240
Don't know.
628
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.759
Don't know, yeah. So we've heard, we've all read, that
629
00:32:07.779 --> 00:32:10.119
you enter a black hole, there's a whole universe opens
630
00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:13.609
up in front of you. Could you have that make
631
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:14.650
sense for any of us, please?
632
00:32:16.069 --> 00:32:19.230
Yeah, so we don't know what's inside a black hole.
633
00:32:19.509 --> 00:32:22.630
Okay, that's the answer. Paul, next question.
634
00:32:22.710 --> 00:32:26.049
Basically, that it could be.
635
00:32:26.569 --> 00:32:27.569
Can I just say something?
636
00:32:27.589 --> 00:32:32.990
Let's move on to the next question.
637
00:32:33.009 --> 00:32:36.599
Okay, but the theoretical hypotheses is what gives us this, right?
638
00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:39.990
Yeah, so that it's a.
639
00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:45.509
Portal to another universe is one of the possibilities that
640
00:32:45.549 --> 00:32:50.170
people have put forward. You can do it. Basically, the
641
00:32:50.230 --> 00:32:54.140
reason it works is that if you know one thing
642
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:56.980
about Einstein's theory of general relativity is that space and
643
00:32:57.019 --> 00:32:57.960
time becomes curved.
644
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:00.039
And you can curve.
645
00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:03.059
It so much that you create pockets, and those pockets
646
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.869
can become infinitely large. So a black hole might be
647
00:33:06.970 --> 00:33:09.809
much larger in the inside than it looks from the outside,
648
00:33:10.289 --> 00:33:13.829
and indeed it could be infinitely large. So mathematically, you
649
00:33:13.869 --> 00:33:18.200
can stuff another universe inside a black hole. It's indeed possible,
650
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:22.180
and given that we don't have any evidence that could
651
00:33:22.220 --> 00:33:25.700
tell us whether it's true or not, I would say, yeah,
652
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:26.339
it's possible.
653
00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:31.039
Here's your Nobel Prize. We're going to give it to you.
654
00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:34.130
That's the Russian doll theory. Take it, run with it.
655
00:33:34.819 --> 00:33:38.299
And you write up a paper. But in a sense,
656
00:33:38.339 --> 00:33:40.059
isn't that it? Aren't you saying that in a way?
657
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.579
That would mean black holes in that black hole universe
658
00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:43.579
would have universes.
659
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.000
Yes.
660
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.160
It would mean that in principle, Sabina, right?
661
00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:52.619
Yeah, so that's basically what Lee Smolin's idea of cosmological
662
00:33:52.660 --> 00:33:56.319
natural selection is based on. So you have universes in
663
00:33:56.900 --> 00:33:59.819
black holes and those universes make their own black holes
664
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:01.839
and so on and so forth. So you get an
665
00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:05.819
entire tree of offspring of universes and then you have
666
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:07.920
some natural selection.
667
00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:10.449
Stuff going on in them. I'm forgetting the details.
668
00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:12.449
In fact, he wrote a whole book on this.
669
00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:15.530
He did write a whole book on it, yeah. It's
670
00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:17.469
called The Life of the Cosmos, I think.
671
00:34:17.590 --> 00:34:21.969
So it would imply that the most successful universes are
672
00:34:21.989 --> 00:34:24.590
the ones that have the most black holes, because they
673
00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:27.050
would be making even more copies of themselves. So you
674
00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:30.489
step back and say, what is the most common kind
675
00:34:30.510 --> 00:34:33.659
of universe? It would be the kind of universe where
676
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:36.659
the laws of physics promote the maximum number of black
677
00:34:36.699 --> 00:34:38.519
holes you can get. And that would just be the natural,
678
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:42.260
that's borrowed right off the pages of evolutionary biology.
679
00:34:42.949 --> 00:34:43.170
Right?
680
00:34:44.210 --> 00:34:45.159
That's the idea, yeah.
681
00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:46.000
Yeah, yeah.
682
00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:49.400
Does this, is this sort of related to this loop
683
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.079
quantum gravity theory?
684
00:34:51.940 --> 00:34:54.059
He's big on that, but I don't know if they're related.
685
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:55.320
What do you think, Sabine?
686
00:34:56.099 --> 00:34:58.550
I don't think so. I think they're pretty much independent.
687
00:34:58.769 --> 00:35:01.170
I mean, I'm pretty sure you can probably connect them somehow.
688
00:35:02.230 --> 00:35:03.909
But I think he was also big on that idea
689
00:35:03.929 --> 00:35:05.489
as well, if memory serves.
690
00:35:05.670 --> 00:35:07.610
I mean, since we're talking about the universe, can you
691
00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:08.610
guys explain to me?
692
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:12.119
I love the beginning sentences like that. Since we're talking
693
00:35:12.139 --> 00:35:12.780
about the universe.
694
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.599
Well, how is it that Dwayne Johnson and Kevin Hart
695
00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:20.099
keep making buddy movies and the universe doesn't implode? How
696
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.929
is that possible? Either of you could address that for me.
697
00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:24.059
I would appreciate it. Do you want me to move
698
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:24.750
on to the next one?
699
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:26.780
We'll get our top people working on that. Okay.
700
00:35:26.909 --> 00:35:28.750
Next question.
701
00:35:28.769 --> 00:35:34.130
Just to be clear, Arnold Schwarzenegger made movies with Danny DeVito. Okay.
702
00:35:34.150 --> 00:35:39.030
He did. That is true. Tall and small. Tall and small.
703
00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:42.820
That's the whole relationship. And a pretty good movie, actually.
704
00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:45.969
All right. Opinion or theory from your past. That's the
705
00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:48.510
title of this question. This is from Adam Crow. They're
706
00:35:48.550 --> 00:35:51.590
not sure where this person is from. Can each of
707
00:35:51.630 --> 00:35:54.449
you give an example of a cherished opinion or theory
708
00:35:54.489 --> 00:35:57.900
from your past? Maybe that you defended publicly at the time,
709
00:35:57.940 --> 00:36:01.380
but now turns out to be completely wrong as proven
710
00:36:01.420 --> 00:36:04.079
by new evidence. I would like to hear some good
711
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.219
examples of the scientific method as intended. We don't hold
712
00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:12.920
on to our beliefs anymore. And the same contradicting evidence.
713
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:18.289
Okay. So Sabina, what do you have going there? Well.
714
00:36:19.250 --> 00:36:21.030
I wrote a whole book saying that there hasn't been
715
00:36:21.070 --> 00:36:22.949
any progress in the foundations of physics. You know, I
716
00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:25.760
would have been happy if there had been something ruled
717
00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:28.699
out that I believed in. But I'm afraid I can't
718
00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:33.159
really come up with anything. What springs to my mind, though,
719
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.840
is that I've changed my mind on dark matter. So
720
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:39.380
I have a background in particle physics. And for a
721
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:41.409
long time, I was pretty convinced it's probably some kind
722
00:36:41.449 --> 00:36:44.769
of particle, because if you can use particle physics to
723
00:36:44.809 --> 00:36:49.909
explain it, why look any further? Now I've pretty much
724
00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:52.889
drifted over to the modified gravity side.
725
00:36:54.769 --> 00:37:03.920
Ooh, ooh, blood drawn. Modified Newtonian gravity. This is like,
726
00:37:04.340 --> 00:37:06.199
so we don't need dark matter. We just have to
727
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:12.619
fix Newton's laws of gravity because they're incomplete. So, ooh, ooh,
728
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.199
she's crossed over. I'm just letting you know, Paul, that
729
00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:17.469
She crossed over, she just admitted that.
730
00:37:19.289 --> 00:37:23.550
Well, you know, I said modified gravity. You brought in Newton.
731
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:25.239
Oh, okay.
732
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:30.159
I think we do need a relativistic theory. A Newtonian
733
00:37:30.219 --> 00:37:32.239
non-relativistic one isn't going to do.
734
00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:33.530
Got it, got it.
735
00:37:33.820 --> 00:37:34.820
I've been saying that for years.
736
00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:36.739
I have a more holistic view of that question. I
737
00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:40.360
think it's a great question. I have a more holistic view. It's,
738
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:46.880
I don't run around espousing strongly... things I believe in
739
00:37:47.139 --> 00:37:52.280
for which there is insufficient evidence to justify that confidence.
740
00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:57.500
So I apportion the confidence I have in my statements
741
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.980
according to how much evidence is available to it. And
742
00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:04.820
I will follow the evidence wherever it takes me. So
743
00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.929
it's not like I have some cherished belief that then
744
00:38:07.989 --> 00:38:09.820
has to be thrown out the window and I'm kicking
745
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.469
and screaming while it happens. I'm there at every step.
746
00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:16.230
of what the evidence is telling us. And when you
747
00:38:16.250 --> 00:38:19.679
have conflicting evidence, then people choose sides, as is true
748
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:22.079
here with dark matter. And that's a fun part. It's
749
00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:26.619
the bleeding edge of physics. But the real problem comes about,
750
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:30.219
and I think this is an important component of Sabina's book,
751
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.159
is that if you start holding tightly to a belief
752
00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:39.449
system that either has no evidence or only partial evidence,
753
00:38:40.010 --> 00:38:44.130
then you're gonna fall harder when that's, if, if the
754
00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:48.170
day comes where you've got to discard the, what might
755
00:38:48.190 --> 00:38:50.369
be decades of your invested hard work.
756
00:38:51.349 --> 00:38:53.389
So where's that, where's that fine line? Like, so, okay,
757
00:38:53.449 --> 00:38:56.570
if you apportion your confidence based on the evidence available,
758
00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:59.429
I mean, and I don't mean you, I mean, in
759
00:38:59.469 --> 00:39:01.380
the third person, just generally, I mean, this kind of
760
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:03.360
gets back to what Sabina was saying in her book
761
00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:05.719
about sort of the lack of advances in 50 years,
762
00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:08.719
et cetera, et cetera. So I, Don't you have to
763
00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:11.420
kind of walk the edge a little bit and say, okay,
764
00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:14.449
the evidence shows me this. I have this level of confidence, 30%.
765
00:39:14.449 --> 00:39:17.730
I'm going to make some assumptions and put myself out
766
00:39:17.789 --> 00:39:20.130
there and make this statement.
767
00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:26.360
Not a problem. The question is how much emotional energy
768
00:39:26.429 --> 00:39:28.539
have you put into it? And Sabina, this is what
769
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:32.960
you've been, you found. people were totally into what they
770
00:39:33.090 --> 00:39:37.369
thought the universe should have been and and will not
771
00:39:37.510 --> 00:39:40.309
give it up like no matter what and that's that's
772
00:39:40.349 --> 00:39:44.389
a problem isn't that right sabina Yeah, I mean, it's.
773
00:39:44.289 --> 00:39:47.309
Just it's psychologically really difficult.
774
00:39:47.369 --> 00:39:49.989
I think if you spend a big portion of your
775
00:39:50.050 --> 00:39:54.269
life researching a particular idea that you're fond of and
776
00:39:54.309 --> 00:39:58.659
then the evidence doesn't come forward as readily as you
777
00:39:58.699 --> 00:40:01.699
thought it would. And indeed, there's conflicting evidence. What are
778
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:05.150
you going to do? Are you going to admit that
779
00:40:05.210 --> 00:40:09.889
you wasted a lot of time of your life?
780
00:40:11.650 --> 00:40:16.039
Wow, you just described my life. But wait, isn't that
781
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.860
a tautological argument on some level? If you're a great
782
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:21.579
scientist or even an average one and you've spent an
783
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:24.300
X number of years and it didn't play out the
784
00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:28.210
way you hoped or anticipated, isn't that knowledge in and
785
00:40:28.269 --> 00:40:30.710
of itself that it's not playing out the way you
786
00:40:30.750 --> 00:40:34.909
hoped and you did make advances because You disprove something
787
00:40:34.969 --> 00:40:37.849
that you thought was otherwise, but still you prove something.
788
00:40:37.869 --> 00:40:39.110
You see what I'm saying?
789
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:42.440
Yeah, I see what you're saying. And yeah, that's how
790
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:43.099
it should be.
791
00:40:43.219 --> 00:40:47.980
But, you know, scientists are only human. I guess the
792
00:40:48.059 --> 00:40:50.480
only thing that I have to add is that it
793
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:53.619
gets easier if you do it more often. I've worked
794
00:40:53.659 --> 00:40:55.800
on a lot of different things at this point, like
795
00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:59.960
in the past 20 years, like the phenomenology of particle
796
00:41:00.019 --> 00:41:05.989
physics and quantum gravity and modified gravity and a little
797
00:41:06.010 --> 00:41:10.139
bit statistical mechanics and some Foundations of quantum mechanics and
798
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:12.380
so on and so forth. And you get used to
799
00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:15.780
giving up cherished ideas and just moving on and doing
800
00:41:15.820 --> 00:41:16.349
something else.
801
00:41:17.869 --> 00:41:19.730
Yeah, so you like an idea, but maybe you shouldn't
802
00:41:19.769 --> 00:41:23.110
cherish it. Maybe that's the problem.
803
00:41:23.429 --> 00:41:25.409
You got to temper your passion, I guess, right?
804
00:41:27.190 --> 00:41:29.250
So, Paul, we only have like three minutes left.
805
00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:33.250
This is on vacuum decay from Sandra Pagliani. I don't
806
00:41:33.309 --> 00:41:35.869
know where she's from. What is most terrifying to you?
807
00:41:35.969 --> 00:41:39.469
Vacuum decay sneaking up on us and suddenly destroying us
808
00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:43.829
or the big rip? Which one is most probable to occur? Also,
809
00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:46.469
given that we are matter, what are the chances that
810
00:41:46.510 --> 00:41:49.079
we bump into antimatter and vanish in a puff of
811
00:41:49.139 --> 00:41:51.559
gamma rays? I don't know why I had to go
812
00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:53.440
so dark. Sorry about that.
813
00:41:53.460 --> 00:41:53.539
So.
814
00:41:54.849 --> 00:41:57.570
Clearly Sandra is having trouble keeping a relationship.
815
00:41:58.510 --> 00:42:00.690
Sandra needs to get help on that one.
816
00:42:01.130 --> 00:42:03.769
She's a little on the dark side. She's the Debbie
817
00:42:03.789 --> 00:42:08.050
Downer of this particular StarTalk session. Yeah, so big rip,
818
00:42:08.110 --> 00:42:08.989
vacuum decay.
819
00:42:09.090 --> 00:42:10.650
And sound bites, what do you have?
820
00:42:12.110 --> 00:42:14.369
So I think the best way to die would be
821
00:42:14.449 --> 00:42:18.300
vacuum decay because we would all die without any advance
822
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:21.579
warning and we would all die together instantly.
823
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.000
Okay.
824
00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:27.659
I feel good. All right, that makes me feel good.
825
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:31.380
And the thing about bumping into your antimatter self, there's
826
00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:37.230
hardly any antimatter in the universe. So that's not, don't,
827
00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:40.510
if that's one of your worries, put it lower on
828
00:42:40.530 --> 00:42:40.909
the list.
829
00:42:42.389 --> 00:42:44.409
You know, Sabina, what you just did with your answer,
830
00:42:44.550 --> 00:42:46.849
you just gave Tom Cruise the idea for his next
831
00:42:46.929 --> 00:42:50.050
movie where he saves the universe from vacuum decay by
832
00:42:50.139 --> 00:42:53.300
riding a rocket. in an improbable amount of speed. So
833
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:55.159
I'm just putting that out there that you just created
834
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:58.059
the next movie coming out. Uh, should we move on
835
00:42:58.099 --> 00:42:59.119
to another question?
836
00:42:59.139 --> 00:42:59.320
Sure.
837
00:42:59.539 --> 00:42:59.760
Sure.
838
00:42:59.860 --> 00:43:05.389
Okay. Uh, infinite planets, Angus McNeil. Is there an infinite
839
00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:08.590
amount of planets in the universe? If, if there, if
840
00:43:08.869 --> 00:43:10.869
there are, I'm sorry, if there are an infinite amount
841
00:43:10.889 --> 00:43:12.849
of planets in the universe, then does that mean that
842
00:43:12.949 --> 00:43:16.929
every possible planet from a video game or a made
843
00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:20.539
up world could exist? With real life physics. Now, Angus
844
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:23.449
is 12. So it sounds to me like he's just
845
00:43:23.510 --> 00:43:25.980
trying to justify playing video games all day.
846
00:43:25.989 --> 00:43:29.030
That's what it sounds like. And his parents are watching
847
00:43:29.269 --> 00:43:31.030
for the answer to see.
848
00:43:31.659 --> 00:43:34.739
Ma, I got to play. Neil Tyson and Sabina said
849
00:43:34.780 --> 00:43:35.800
that this is how it's.
850
00:43:39.210 --> 00:43:41.230
So Sabine, do you think he's really thinking of the
851
00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:44.010
multiverse there instead of just the infinite number of planets
852
00:43:44.050 --> 00:43:44.789
in our own universe?
853
00:43:44.869 --> 00:43:48.199
Yeah, it sounds a little bit like a multiverse idea.
854
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.760
So on some level, the answer might be yes, there
855
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:55.219
could be planets.
856
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:56.780
With other laws of nature.
857
00:43:57.019 --> 00:44:00.070
On the other hand, I'm not sure that the kind
858
00:44:00.090 --> 00:44:03.840
of physics that you get shown in video games is
859
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.159
actually consistent with the existence of planets.
860
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:09.679
In the first place. So you have to be a
861
00:44:09.699 --> 00:44:11.039
little bit careful.
862
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:14.110
That if you actually work out the math, the universe
863
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:14.760
still exists.
864
00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:16.349
Well, it still exists.
865
00:44:16.409 --> 00:44:21.050
But I guess in any universe you're in, though, Grand
866
00:44:21.070 --> 00:44:23.929
Theft Auto is still illegal, like no matter what happens
867
00:44:23.989 --> 00:44:24.789
where you are.
868
00:44:24.829 --> 00:44:27.340
But I've seen Mario. Mario can jump off a ledge
869
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.760
and then just scurry back onto the ledge. There's some
870
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.360
really weird laws of physics.
871
00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:36.599
Yes, he never twists an ankle. He never blows out
872
00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:39.579
his knee. It's just, how is that? How do you
873
00:44:39.619 --> 00:44:41.260
steal a car in three seconds?
874
00:44:41.380 --> 00:44:45.110
But an important point, Sabina, I think if you imply this,
875
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.849
if you didn't say this explicitly, other universes might have
876
00:44:47.909 --> 00:44:50.440
slightly different laws of physics in them. And so you'd
877
00:44:50.460 --> 00:44:53.860
have to create a system of laws that would be
878
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.960
compatible with having planets. We know our laws are compatible
879
00:44:57.980 --> 00:45:01.519
with planets because we're on one. All right. And other
880
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:03.860
evidence as well. Paul, one last question. See if we can.
881
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:07.050
Squeeze one in. This is Sam. G'day. I'm a tractor
882
00:45:07.170 --> 00:45:10.090
operator from Australia. So I listen to StarTalk a lot.
883
00:45:10.190 --> 00:45:11.989
And I got to thinking about black holes and the
884
00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:14.230
Big Bang. And if no one actually knows how the
885
00:45:14.250 --> 00:45:16.909
Big Bang started, is it a possibility that the Big
886
00:45:16.949 --> 00:45:19.429
Bang was the result of a universe that that had
887
00:45:19.469 --> 00:45:22.039
been consumed by a black hole and popped out of
888
00:45:22.059 --> 00:45:24.420
the backside of the black hole?
889
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:26.079
Whoa.
890
00:45:27.219 --> 00:45:30.000
I say no because there's flex tape. And when you
891
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:31.940
have flex tape, ain't nothing popping.
892
00:45:31.820 --> 00:45:33.039
Out of it. You keep it together. You keep it together.
893
00:45:33.059 --> 00:45:34.510
You ain't nothing popping out of a black hole.
894
00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:37.269
I saw that TV commercial.
895
00:45:37.289 --> 00:45:38.650
I really want to try the part where you go
896
00:45:38.690 --> 00:45:40.630
into a pool and you put a... Anyway, go ahead.
897
00:45:41.349 --> 00:45:43.550
So let me reshape that question. If the black hole
898
00:45:43.630 --> 00:45:46.610
can contain a universe... Is that the same thing as
899
00:45:46.769 --> 00:45:49.389
popping a universe out the other side and birthing one?
900
00:45:49.909 --> 00:45:52.409
Is that a fair way to think about that or not?
901
00:45:53.250 --> 00:45:57.300
Yeah, and the answer is pretty much the same. It's possible,
902
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.599
at least mathematically, you can do it. You can have
903
00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:04.099
the universe come out of a black hole and glue
904
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:06.840
this in the place where you normally have the Big Bang.
905
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.659
It's one of the theories for the beginning of the
906
00:46:09.739 --> 00:46:13.190
universe that physicists have looked at. Whoa.
907
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.530
So my boy on a tractor in Australia is deducing
908
00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:19.710
the nature of the universe and he's on a roll.
909
00:46:20.469 --> 00:46:22.829
It tells you a lot about the current state of physics.
910
00:46:23.989 --> 00:46:25.929
Or tell you a lot about how deep thinker we
911
00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:27.989
got there on the tractor.
912
00:46:28.190 --> 00:46:29.989
Well, I just want to say, Sam, you just won
913
00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:33.510
the Nobel Prize. So congratulations. Get off that tractor and.
914
00:46:33.469 --> 00:46:35.989
Come on down.
915
00:46:36.010 --> 00:46:39.739
Come on down. Maybe wear your tuxedo overalls for the ceremony.
916
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:40.119
How about that?
917
00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:40.320
Yeah.
918
00:46:41.809 --> 00:46:43.849
All right. We got to end it there. Paul, always
919
00:46:43.889 --> 00:46:44.550
good to have you, man.
920
00:46:45.010 --> 00:46:45.789
It's great to be on.
921
00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:48.889
All right. And Sabina Hossenfeld, it was a delight to
922
00:46:48.929 --> 00:46:51.469
have you. Good luck with the book. Sometimes it needs
923
00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:54.610
a little luck as well. But the topics are, as
924
00:46:54.659 --> 00:46:58.420
you can see, deeply of deep interest to so many people,
925
00:46:58.460 --> 00:47:01.760
especially in our fan base. So thanks for agreeing to
926
00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:02.719
come on to StarTalk.
927
00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:04.699
Wonderful to talk to you, guys.
928
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:09.989
All right. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. As always,
929
00:47:10.070 --> 00:47:11.920
I bid you to keep looking up.