Sticky Science_ The Force Be With You with Neil deGrasse Tyson

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This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist.
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This is Sports Edition. And I got with me my co-host,
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one of two for this format, Chuck Nice. Chuck, how
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you doing, man? Hey, man. Yeah, Sports Edition.
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I'm the guy who, in whatever iteration of sports, I'm
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the guy bringing the water.
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Is that what you do? The Gatorade? That's me. I'm
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the Gatorade guy.
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Oh, no.
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That's me. Hey, how you doing? You thirsty? You need
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some electrolytes there, buddy? You want me to squirt it
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into your mouth? Yeah, come here. Yeah, exactly. Gary O'Reilly. Gary.
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Hi, Neil.
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From the UK. You're with the stateside now, I think.
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I am, yes. Originally the UK. Played professional soccer there.
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For professional football, I guess they call it. And you
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were an announcer there. So we're delighted to have both
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of those features within you. So Gary, just tell me
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what you got up your sleeve for today.
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Something we take for granted, Neil. Imagine surfaces. We engage
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with so many everyday smartphones, our clothing, footwear, kitchens, even paint.
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But what is happening at a molecular level?
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Oh, they're all disgusting.
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That's what's happening at a molecular level.
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They're all nasty.
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All right.
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Well, we'll see if that's the case. I mean, is
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it material science? Is it physics?
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Chuck, I didn't know you had such strong opinions about molecules.
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I do.
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Especially when they form bonds that actually hurt me.
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Oh, God.
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And molecular bonds. Okay. Go on, Gary. All right.
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So, I mean, and then we'll get to the friction, which...
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happens when certain surfaces connect. And then we have biomimicked
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so much from Mother Nature and tried to recreate her work.
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And we've even taken these inventions into space. So we'll
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go there as well. But really, right now, what we
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need is someone who could make paint drying seem interesting.
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And I think what we have... He's just the person. So, Neil,
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if you would like to introduce our guest today, then
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we'll go from there.
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Well, I'd be happy to. So we've got Laurie Winklis. Laurie,
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did I pronounce that correctly?
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Perfectly, Neil. Yeah, well done.
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Excellent. You're coming to us with an Irish accent, but
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at the moment you're in New Zealand. Very cool. Thank you.
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Thank you for hanging with us, even though you're on
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the other side of the earth at some unholy time
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of day. In this interview, because it's a regular time
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of day for us. Oh, it's all good.
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It's almost 9 a.m. It's all good.
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Oh, that's okay. Okay, 9 a.m. tomorrow.
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Yeah, tomorrow, in the future.
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She's from the future! She's from the future!
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You're rather spright to be coming to us from the future.
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It's much better here.
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Early morning tomorrow. You have a background in physics and
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in space and in working in national labs. You're a
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science communicator, a lecturer. I love it all. You've got books.
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One of them is called, was it Science and the City?
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Is that one of your books?
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Yeah, that was my first book.
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I love it.
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Wonderful title. And most recently, what's it called? Sticky, The
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Secret Science of Surfaces. And that sounds all about friction.
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We've done several shows talking about friction in sports. So
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this will fit right into that portfolio. So- So let
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me just sort of start off. I think I got
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to start a questioning I got for you. So I
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think people want to know about gecko feet.
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By the way, isn't that gecko from New Zealand?
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There is a gecko in New Zealand, and it's a
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very unusual one because it lives in the mountains. It's
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an alpine gecko.
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No, I was talking about the Geico gecko.
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Oh no, not him.
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What accent does the Geico Gecko have? What accent does
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the Geico Gecko have?
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I don't know.
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He's in East London. You'll know this, Laurie. There's a
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soap opera in England called Eastenders. It's based in the
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East End of London. He is one of the cast members.
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And he's not putting on a voice.
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That's him.
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That's him. That's just him.
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Although he's not green.
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Wait, wait, wait. The gecko is the actor who is
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that voice is a cast member. Yes, not the gecko, no.
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I'm sorry. I said last time I saw EastEnders, I
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don't remember talking animals. I don't remember the gecko.
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No.
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Yeah, talking gecko would make it a lot more interesting.
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All right, well, let's look.
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All right. All right, Laurie, let's unravel the gecko.
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So if I've got this right, you've got hairs on
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hairs on scales on toes on feet.
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Yeah, that's pretty much it actually, Gary. The gecko foot
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is what we call a hierarchical structure. So what that
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really means is that it has features of different sizes
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that combine together to give the gecko its climbing superpower,
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I suppose. So if you look at a little gecko's toes,
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usually the toes themselves are pretty strong. So that's often
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enough to get them to cling on to like a
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bark of a tree or whatever.
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But just to be clear, Laurie, I've never done this.
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You said, if you look at a gecko's toes.
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You've never looked at a gecko's toes?
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I'm sorry. Yeah, I understand that there's a fetish site.
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I really hope not.
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Okay, go on, Laurie.
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So I'll take a step back. Geckos usually have four legs.
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We'll start there. They're little lizards. And they have, depending
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on their species, like four or five toes on each foot.
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So the thing about their toes is, and sometimes if
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you see them at maybe a zoo or something, if
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you see them on a glass surface, that's usually the
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best way to get a real insight into what's going on.
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So you've got their little feet. On their toes, their
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toes are covered in these flaps of skin and they're
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called lamellae. They're just stripes of skin. And for the
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longest time, scientists, you know, we just thought that that was,
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it was to do with those flaps of skin. Like
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maybe they were acting as some sort of like a
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suction cup or maybe.
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They look like a pad when they're pressed against a
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flat surface.
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They look kind of like a pad.
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They flatten out. Yeah, they flatten out. So like that
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was what we thought, that was all we thought that
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geckos could do. But like as microscopes began to... develop
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more and get better and better. And we could zoom
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in a bit further. Like Gary said, we realized those
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flaps of skin are actually covered in this very, very
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dense forest of hairs and they're called setae. So they're
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just hairs, but they increase the surface area so much.
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So it's now not a flat bit of skin. It's
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a really heavily textured forest of hairs. If you zoom
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in on the end of each of those hairs, you'll
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find that they actually, they each have like a really
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bad case of split ends, right? So each one of
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those hairs splays out into lots of other smaller hairs.
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And the ends of those hairs can make such intimate
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contact with surfaces. Now, when I mean intimate contact, I
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mean getting within one nanometer of the molecules that make
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up the surface.
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So what you're saying is the surfaces we might think
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are smooth, but on the very small level, they're not.
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And so if you have something small enough, To get
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in the nooks and the crannies, especially the crannies, then
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I don't know the difference between a nook and a cranny. Chuck,
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do you have any insight into that? Yeah. The nooks
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are not as delicious.
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Okay. But yeah, everything is rough. So what you really
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want to do is you want to increase the contact
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points as much as possible if you want to get
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to touch the surface as much as possible. So like
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when you will see geckos and if you see them
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in the wild, they can climb on everything. You know,
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they're running across waxy leaves, wet rocks. They can climb
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on glass. They can be inverted on sheets of glass,
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which are a material. It's a But yeah, as Neil said,
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on the microscale, it's not smooth. It's very rough and textured.
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So these tiny hairs can kind of get in there
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and they can start. It's a force called the Van
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der Waals interaction. It's a force that you can only
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tap into when atoms are close enough together. And that
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is what the gecko uses. Like the geckos, foot is
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effectively feeling for electrons in the atoms of whatever the
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surfaces that they're climbing on.
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What you're kind of describing on an atomic level is Velcro.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. To be honest, it's very similar.
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It's basically.
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It's electric Velcro.
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It's molecular Velcro with electrons and looking for a signal
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rather than just, you know, clasping together and pulling apart.
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Yeah. And the thing that's even more impressive about the
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gecko's version of this Velcro is that it can detach
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really quickly. So, you know, when you're pulling gecko or
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pulling geckos apart, don't do that.
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It's my favorite pastime, by the way, Laurie.
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When you're pulling Velcro apart, you get that like really
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loud noise and it takes quite a lot of force.
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But a gecko, all a gecko needs to do is
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it curls its toes back. and that changes the angle
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that those split ends, those hairs are making with the
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surface and that turns off its stickiness instantly. So geckos
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can turn on and off their stickiness depending on the
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orientation of their toes.
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Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to actually walk.
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Exactly.
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You place them down and they just get stuck there forever.
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Yeah, being ultra sticky isn't that useful, to be honest.
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You want to be able to turn it on when
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you need it and turn it off when you want
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to scarper. So yeah, the Gecko has all of these
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features that are all working together to get that contact
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at the atomic level, at the, you know, really talking
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about electrons in order to climb. Yeah, they're amazing.
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Little lizards.
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Am I right here, Laurie, where you get a gecko
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that may be a half a pound or a pound
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in weight, right? And you stick it to the ceiling.
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And then it can hold nearly 300 pounds of weight. Now, A, how? A,
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the question is broke down in two parts. A, how?
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And B, how on earth do you test that it
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can hold that much weight without being cruel to a gecko?
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Unfortunately, there's a few geckos who gave their life for
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that experiment.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, if you look back at
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the early history of gecko research, there really are a
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lot of geckos that were treated badly. But in terms
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of this research, it's really based on a measurement taken
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on a single one of those hairs and then they
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scale it up to. Yeah, I mean, so it's kind
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of that's why I say in theory, right, there's this
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kind of a scaling question because, you know, really a
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gecko shouldn't ever need to. to be able to support
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that sort of force. Why it's so good is because
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it's not usually in a lab, right? Like I said,
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it's usually running around in the forest.
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I don't want the Geico company to learn about this
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because we make TV commercials where that little Geico gecko
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is saving people dang little questions.
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Oh no, we don't want that.
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Right, right, right, right. Actually, Neil, that's kind.
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Of cool.
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All right, Laurie, so here we go.
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I know we're going to get off of geckos in
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a minute. but I'm just fascinated because we're talking about sticky.
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So I know we got to leave the get go. However,
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when you look at the design of their anatomy, is
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that also to displace, not disperse their weight so that
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they can do these things you're talking about? Cause they
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seem to be like, yeah, they're like super stretched out
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with a tiny little skinny body.
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Totally. They absolutely do. The whole animal has a role
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to play. It's not just its toes. Like for a start,
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they kind of do jazz hands when they're trying to get,
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they try to balance out the forces as much as possible.
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For the non-dancers out there, jazz hands are fully open,
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palm forward, all fingers spread.
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Indeed.
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It's showtime, folks.
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Showtime at the geckos. But yeah, on the ceiling, they'll
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do that so that their toes are pointing in opposite
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directions so that the forces are all spread out evenly
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across all of their toes. And a gecko can very
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easily just cling with the single toe. They don't need
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all of their toes to be perfectly engaged in order
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to be able to climb.
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That's just showing off.
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I know, isn't it?
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Okay.
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So now, once we've– because it's taken us basically until
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the 21st century to really get a grip on understanding
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what's keeping a gecko glued to a wall or a ceiling.
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I see what you did there, Gary, to get a
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grip on this. Thank you.
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And I know these things aren't just thrown together. We've
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mimicked that. And we came up, we being very smart people,
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not me, came up with gecko tape. And we have
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actually gone into space with things based on a gecko's feet.
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Are these real things?
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What's gecko tape?
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What's gecko tape?
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Gecko tape kind of came out of a lab at Stanford.
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And what they've done is they know that it's not possible.
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We do not have the ability to recreate the level
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of complex structure that a gecko has naturally evolved on
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its toes. But what they can do is they can
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kind of take some of the essential elements and kind
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of cheat a little bit, copy a little, copy some
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of that. And what it looks like really, and I
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got to play with some myself when I visited, it's
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a silicone rubber, so a very flexible grey rubber. And
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if you look at it, it just looks quite rough.
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But if you look at it under a microscope, it's
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actually covered in tiny little wedges. So it's been patterned
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with these wedges that are angled. And they're at a
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00:13:46.129 --> 00:13:49.629
similar angle to the setae, these hairs on a gecko's foot.
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So what they do is you can apply that. If
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you have that on, say, like a robotic arm for something,
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you can bring that robotic arm up against, say, a
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solar panel if you're on the International Space Station. And
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you put the gecko tape up against whatever it is
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you're trying to pick up and you tug it down slightly.
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There's just a little button on the system. that causes
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those wedges to splay out. So again, kind of tapping
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into the same idea as the hairs, although much, much
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larger than the hairs. They don't make quite such intimate contact,
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but because the gecko is so special, it doesn't need
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to make quite such intimate contact. It can make a
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00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:30.789
little bit of it and it does enough. So you
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00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:34.250
can do that without using a suction cup, which is
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usually how we move big awkward things around. You can
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00:14:37.169 --> 00:14:39.570
do it without using any electricity. There's a lot of
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grippers that we use, use electricity, electrostatics to pick stuff up,
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and they don't have any clamping forces. You can actually
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00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:51.259
pick up very delicate things just by putting this gecko tape,
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00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:55.000
the silicone rubber, onto the surface and causing its wedges
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to kind of splay out.
305
00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.460
Forgive me, but the first thing I thought of when
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00:14:59.500 --> 00:15:03.100
you were describing this tape is a new arcade machine
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00:15:03.139 --> 00:15:05.799
where you want to get the toy inside the thing.
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00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:09.190
You just, because you can never get it, right? You
309
00:15:09.269 --> 00:15:11.549
never get the toy. With the clamp, we get some
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00:15:11.570 --> 00:15:14.289
of your tape, we win, and we do all the toys.
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00:15:14.389 --> 00:15:15.700
Every time, every time, yeah.
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00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:23.139
All the toys are coming home with me. This is amazing, yeah.
313
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So this is actually used in space now?
314
00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:28.230
Yeah, so it was trialed initially on the Vomit Comet
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and then it eventually went up on the International Space Station.
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00:15:31.389 --> 00:15:33.850
I think it's had several trials now on the International
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00:15:33.909 --> 00:15:37.250
Space Station to be used as a low gravity gripper
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00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:40.070
and manipulator. Wait, could you please.
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00:15:39.750 --> 00:15:41.899
Tell the one in a hundred of our listeners, because
320
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:43.820
that's all it would be, what the Vomit Comet is?
321
00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:46.710
Oh yeah, so the Vomit Comet is one of NASA's
322
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.610
test facilities. It's a plane basically that flies in a
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parabolic path and it simulates low gravity for short periods
324
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of time. So if you want to test something out
325
00:15:57.730 --> 00:16:00.230
in low gravity, that's a good way to do it.
326
00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:01.330
Or even zero gravity, right?
327
00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:03.950
Or zero gravity, yeah, indeed. if only I'd love to
328
00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:05.669
have a go in the Vama Comet, if anyone's listening.
329
00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:12.809
I'll put in a good word for you. With Dramamine.
330
00:16:13.009 --> 00:16:14.750
So it is, it is being used and it's actually
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00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:17.559
already being developed and used in on factories on earth
332
00:16:17.620 --> 00:16:20.120
as well. So they're, they've commercialized some of these grippers
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00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.539
to be used in, in robotic systems to pick up
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awkwardly shaped objects.
335
00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:26.299
Yeah.
336
00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:28.080
Wow. It's pretty cool.
337
00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:31.309
That's more than cool. So tell me about, so tell
338
00:16:31.330 --> 00:16:35.850
me about the, What happens if water is between your
339
00:16:36.269 --> 00:16:40.269
thing and the surface? Because water is like the enemy
340
00:16:40.309 --> 00:16:43.470
of tape, right? If you get tape wet, nothing sticks anyway,
341
00:16:43.490 --> 00:16:47.100
no how. So what's going on there? Except for Flex
342
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.600
Seal tape, I have to tell you. I've seen those.
343
00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:54.679
It's good stuff. Yeah, water. No, water is a problem.
344
00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:57.919
You're right, Neil. The gecko has evolved to cope with
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00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:00.629
it because its feet, as well as being amazing for gripping,
346
00:17:00.809 --> 00:17:05.259
they're also hydrophobic. So those feet actively repel water. They
347
00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:07.319
push water out of the way so that they could
348
00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:12.319
make dry, effectively dry contact with whatever surface it's touching.
349
00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:17.069
For the silicone tape, again, silicone itself is hydrophobic. So
350
00:17:17.109 --> 00:17:19.690
it tries to repel water as much as possible. It's
351
00:17:19.710 --> 00:17:21.349
not perfect, but it works well.
352
00:17:21.369 --> 00:17:22.349
So let me ask you this.
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Is there any way to take this type of technology
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and apply it to tires? Because I could see so
355
00:17:30.509 --> 00:17:34.279
many applications for For a safety, as a matter of fact,
356
00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:35.859
there was a show called Speed Racer when I was
357
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a kid.
358
00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:38.640
I remember Speed Racer. You remember Speed Racer?
359
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:40.579
You're going to sing again, aren't you? You're going to sing.
360
00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:42.859
The pair of you are going to sing, aren't you?
361
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.569
Oh, my God. Don't make me. Here comes Speed Racer.
362
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He's a demon on wheels.
363
00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:49.690
Okay, okay.
364
00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:53.509
Anyway, one of the things were these super sticky tires
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00:17:53.529 --> 00:17:56.269
that would allow the car to ride on any surface
366
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and even stick to the walls. And, of course, that
367
00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:01.460
can't happen. Or to not lose traction on a wet track.
368
00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:03.039
Or not to lose traction on a wet track. Because
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00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:07.380
they actually stop NASCAR when it rains. All right, but.
370
00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:08.920
We're going to do tires in the next segment.
371
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Oh, okay. Well, let's just do that. Wait, wait.
372
00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:14.029
Hold on to that.
373
00:18:14.609 --> 00:18:18.029
Put a pin in that. And, Laura, you can hang out.
374
00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:19.990
We've got two more segments with you. And this is
375
00:18:20.029 --> 00:18:24.039
just amazing. I mean, I want to do the whole
376
00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.079
thing on geckos. I do too. We get on the topics.
377
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:29.700
Who knew? Who knew?
378
00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:33.740
I have never been so into geckos in my entire life.
379
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:34.920
Me neither.
380
00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:35.640
Me neither.
381
00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:38.369
And they come in different colors and different sizes.
382
00:18:38.650 --> 00:18:42.470
Yeah, they're adorable. They're wonderful little lizards. Damn.
383
00:18:42.609 --> 00:18:46.529
Okay, when we come back, more StarTalk Sports Edition with
384
00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:54.519
surface expert, Laurie Winklis. We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition. We
385
00:18:54.539 --> 00:19:00.609
spent an entire segment talking about gecko toes. But as
386
00:19:00.789 --> 00:19:05.549
interesting as that is to a naturalist, this is Sports Edition,
387
00:19:05.609 --> 00:19:09.490
damn it. And I want to know, how are we
388
00:19:09.509 --> 00:19:16.220
going to put gecko feet on rubber for cars and stuff,
389
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.470
car races? Can we go there, Gary?
390
00:19:19.529 --> 00:19:22.460
We can go anywhere we want. We've got gecko feet
391
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:23.039
and wheels.
392
00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:25.960
Let's lay down the rubber on that. We've got Laurie Winklis,
393
00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:30.259
who's an expert on gecko feet. I know. Laurie, is
394
00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:31.500
that on your business card?
395
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.819
No, it definitely does.
396
00:19:34.220 --> 00:19:36.170
What do you carry around on your business card?
397
00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:36.609
Oh, my gosh.
398
00:19:36.970 --> 00:19:39.390
But anyway, I'm delighted you're coming to us from New Zealand,
399
00:19:39.890 --> 00:19:42.589
a beautiful countryside. I'm not the first nor the last
400
00:19:42.630 --> 00:19:46.710
to say that. Yeah. Thank you for coming on the
401
00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:49.779
line with us here across the ocean.
402
00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:51.430
In North America.
403
00:19:51.950 --> 00:19:53.789
Yeah. So Gary, take it.
404
00:19:53.809 --> 00:19:54.069
All right.
405
00:19:54.109 --> 00:19:57.710
So here's something that may or may not be in
406
00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.779
people's thinking, but it's a wiki fact.
407
00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:02.279
Tribology.
408
00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:05.160
I'd never heard of it before, but it is the
409
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.849
science and engineering of interacting surfaces in relative motion. It
410
00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:14.329
includes the study and application of the principles of friction. Now,
411
00:20:14.509 --> 00:20:17.609
I hadn't thought of that as a science, but tribology
412
00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:19.730
is what we have here.
413
00:20:20.069 --> 00:20:22.329
Why don't they call it frictionology? Why do they got
414
00:20:22.349 --> 00:20:23.269
to be obscure about it?
415
00:20:23.309 --> 00:20:26.710
Because the ancient Greeks got there first and they've decided
416
00:20:27.170 --> 00:20:27.880
it's tribology.
417
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:32.779
All right. Slickology would be better. There you go. So
418
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:33.819
have you ever heard of that, Laurie?
419
00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:38.150
Yeah so a lot of this book is about tribology
420
00:20:38.309 --> 00:20:40.950
and the short version is like it's the science of
421
00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:44.059
rubbing and scrubbing that's how it's often described which I
422
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.920
love I gotta tell.
423
00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.500
You that sounded a little sexual there Laurie.
424
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:51.680
There's an entire chapter on lubrication as well Chuck so
425
00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:59.539
yeah plenty of opportunity for innuendo.
426
00:20:56.890 --> 00:21:00.509
Alright none of this is making the show we've known
427
00:21:00.529 --> 00:21:04.569
and we've had shows on this very topic is that
428
00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:10.089
professional auto racing often, in fact, I might say all
429
00:21:10.130 --> 00:21:16.210
the time, leads automotive technologies with innovations that ultimately filter
430
00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:21.259
the way back to commercial vehicles. But we look at
431
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.500
the tires, as far as it, I see all the
432
00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:27.000
rest of the technology, they're still using rubber tires on
433
00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:31.599
the track. Am I missing something there? What's either NASCAR
434
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.440
or especially Formula One where the full rubber tire is
435
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.160
sticking out all bare?
436
00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:42.559
When are we getting gecko feet on our Formula One cars?
437
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:44.980
And listen, if you think about it, when you look
438
00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:50.059
at racing slicks, they've got to be a significant weight
439
00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:54.170
factor to the car. So maybe that's something if you
440
00:21:54.190 --> 00:21:57.269
want to lighten the load. gecko feet tires would be
441
00:21:57.289 --> 00:21:58.490
a great way to do it.
442
00:21:59.269 --> 00:22:01.829
Yeah. I mean, it's a funny one. The main problem
443
00:22:01.849 --> 00:22:04.769
with gecko tape is that it's not very robust. So
444
00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:07.210
it's not actually very good. It wouldn't be very good
445
00:22:07.289 --> 00:22:09.349
under the weight of like a Formula One car or
446
00:22:09.410 --> 00:22:12.630
even just the Formula One tire, like you said. But
447
00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:15.910
I should say that they use rubber because it also,
448
00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:18.359
if it's designed well enough and if the track is
449
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.900
smooth enough, it also can tap into those same forces,
450
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:28.470
the like those big Formula One slick tires, they can
451
00:22:28.529 --> 00:22:32.750
make a similar intimate contact with a racetrack that a
452
00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:34.289
gecko can make with a wool.
453
00:22:34.730 --> 00:22:37.950
Because they're soft at some level, right? I mean, that's
454
00:22:37.970 --> 00:22:41.069
why they're called rubber, right? I mean, they fill in
455
00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:43.750
any little microscopic gaps.
456
00:22:44.109 --> 00:22:44.859
Yeah, exactly.
457
00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.279
What's up, baby? This is your tire. How you doing?
458
00:22:50.069 --> 00:22:55.880
Just trying to make a little intimate contact.
459
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.200
You know, Formula One after hours.
460
00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:04.220
Yes. Okay.
461
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.009
So when you've got a Formula One race car and
462
00:23:07.170 --> 00:23:11.549
I mean, people like Lewis Hamilton will hammer the pedal
463
00:23:11.589 --> 00:23:14.900
down and this thing's gone over 200 miles per hour. Plus,
464
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.109
with a Formula One racetrack, you've got all sorts of curves, bends.
465
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:20.509
I mean, a tyre will go through all of these
466
00:23:20.609 --> 00:23:24.000
different forces. There's no defamation, torque, all the rest of it.
467
00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:27.910
How are you ensuring that it's still able to tap
468
00:23:27.970 --> 00:23:31.049
into those van der Waals forces under all these distresses?
469
00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:36.380
Yeah, really good question. There's two main ways that a
470
00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:39.119
tyre makes contact with the road. And one of them
471
00:23:39.180 --> 00:23:41.339
is the way that normal tyres make contact with the road,
472
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:44.160
which is kind of what Neil said. It's about the rubber...
473
00:23:44.390 --> 00:23:47.950
Rubber is this material called, it's a viscoelastic material. So
474
00:23:48.009 --> 00:23:51.309
it's something a bit like a very viscous or sticky
475
00:23:51.390 --> 00:23:55.319
fluid and an elastic solid. So it's kind of sits
476
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:57.660
somewhere in that range. And what it means is that
477
00:23:57.740 --> 00:24:01.420
tire rubber flows into all of those bumps and crevices
478
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:04.579
and all of the roughness on a racetrack. And as
479
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.420
it flows, it makes a kind of a frictional interaction.
480
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.539
And that is mostly how tires work. That's mostly how
481
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:14.250
like road tires will grip to the road. But Formula
482
00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:19.190
1 tyres are usually flat, very, very particular compounds of rubber,
483
00:24:19.210 --> 00:24:24.130
like particularly their stickiness, their viscosity has been very well defined.
484
00:24:25.029 --> 00:24:28.279
And they're huge, right? This massive surface area that makes
485
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.460
contact with the track. The track is usually also very smooth.
486
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:34.619
So it can also tap into that van der Waals interaction,
487
00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:40.519
assuming the rubber can actually just flow properly into the track. Now,
488
00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.619
sometimes you'll see a Formula 1 driver And they talk
489
00:24:43.660 --> 00:24:45.859
about this. They talk about this in other motorsports too,
490
00:24:46.059 --> 00:24:49.779
about laying down some rubber, right? This idea of actually
491
00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:55.109
like the tire degrading intentionally. Formula One is totally based
492
00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:59.109
on that. Those tires are designed to degrade. They're designed
493
00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:02.509
to leave tiny thin layers of rubber on the track
494
00:25:03.049 --> 00:25:06.369
because that increases the grip for the next time you
495
00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:09.069
go around the track. You lay down the rubber to
496
00:25:09.210 --> 00:25:12.289
increase the friction between your tire the next time you
497
00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:15.420
pass by. But like on a normal car, you do
498
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.119
not want your rubber to be degrading over the course
499
00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:20.339
of a few kilometers, right?
500
00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:23.559
Yeah, because they change their wheels in an F1, you know. Exactly.
501
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.700
And Formula 1 tires, like the cost. I can't even,
502
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.029
I don't even know how much of a cost.
503
00:25:29.049 --> 00:25:30.410
Yeah, you don't want to have to change your wheels
504
00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:34.710
on the way to, you know, to the 7-Eleven, you know. No, no.
505
00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:36.150
You know what, Chuck?
506
00:25:36.210 --> 00:25:39.309
You know, when you're talking about you want gecko tires, right?
507
00:25:39.509 --> 00:25:40.490
Gecko feet on a tire.
508
00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:40.789
Yeah.
509
00:25:41.849 --> 00:25:43.490
Have they lurried down exactly that?
510
00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:46.069
Because a Formula One race will take place in the rain,
511
00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:50.630
and they'll obviously then have a tread pattern on the tire,
512
00:25:51.349 --> 00:25:55.670
which then disperses an awful lot of surface water. So
513
00:25:55.710 --> 00:25:58.990
are they using a similar sort of technique that a
514
00:25:59.009 --> 00:26:00.930
gecko would for being hydrophobic?
515
00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:03.609
Wait, Gary, do they swap out the tires when it rains? Yes,
516
00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:03.970
they do.
517
00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:06.430
Okay, got it. It's a different tire with a.
518
00:26:06.509 --> 00:26:07.529
Oh, they'll have a whole team.
519
00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:09.559
Normally with a channel through the middle of the tire.
520
00:26:10.059 --> 00:26:15.400
and then some type of channeling that moves the water away.
521
00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:16.099
Exactly, yeah.
522
00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:19.460
Neil, they have a whole team to manage the tire,
523
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.900
to manage the setup of the car based on the weather.
524
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:24.890
It could be humidity, temperature, I.
525
00:26:24.819 --> 00:26:27.039
Think you should have it also in snow. Yeah.
526
00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:32.119
Well, if you watch Rally, if you watch Rally, they're
527
00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:34.759
racing on ice, which is just crazy.
528
00:26:34.779 --> 00:26:37.329
No, but they don't have tire changes, do they, in Rallycross?
529
00:26:37.349 --> 00:26:37.890
No, exactly.
530
00:26:38.009 --> 00:26:39.410
In Rallycross, right.
531
00:26:39.690 --> 00:26:44.589
But are they able to push that super hydrophobic sort
532
00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:45.240
of set up?
533
00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:50.299
The rubber itself is a bit hydrophobic. It does repel water,
534
00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:52.920
but really it's the design of those tread patterns that
535
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:54.819
pushes the water out of the way. So like a
536
00:26:54.859 --> 00:26:57.839
Formula One, I think it's the 2020 Formula One tyres,
537
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.390
I need to check, but they can remove about 65
538
00:27:02.390 --> 00:27:06.410
litres of water per second when the car is moving
539
00:27:06.450 --> 00:27:10.150
at full speed. Like every single pattern on a tread
540
00:27:10.430 --> 00:27:13.329
has been designed to suck the water up And like
541
00:27:13.390 --> 00:27:15.509
Chuck said, kind of push it out the sides of
542
00:27:15.529 --> 00:27:17.549
the tire so that the contact is as dry as
543
00:27:17.569 --> 00:27:19.630
they can possibly get it. Like there's a limit, right?
544
00:27:19.650 --> 00:27:20.130
There's a limit.
545
00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:23.210
So the tire is basically a windshield wiper for the road.
546
00:27:23.430 --> 00:27:24.539
Exactly.
547
00:27:24.579 --> 00:27:26.519
A very expensive windshield wiper.
548
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:28.019
A very expensive windshield wiper.
549
00:27:28.339 --> 00:27:33.640
So my question then is from a material standpoint, why
550
00:27:33.700 --> 00:27:38.440
not just do two things? One, increase the friction of
551
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.099
the surface upon which you're driving.
552
00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:42.359
And two.
553
00:27:42.990 --> 00:27:46.230
make it so that the tire becomes more interactive with
554
00:27:46.269 --> 00:27:50.690
that frictioned surface or that surface that has more friction.
555
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.359
So, Laurie, let me tighten up Chuck's question. Please. If
556
00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:58.880
the whole point is to have rubber grip into the
557
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:05.210
texture of the track, why not actually chew up the track?
558
00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:09.309
So that the rubber is getting so in there, it's
559
00:28:09.369 --> 00:28:13.099
not even about friction. It's actually pushing off of vertical
560
00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:16.339
walls that have been cut into the track as you
561
00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:16.819
go around.
562
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.480
Yeah, I think the argument really is about you want
563
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.720
to keep this a fast sport, right? And friction, you
564
00:28:24.789 --> 00:28:27.470
need some of it in order to get the traction
565
00:28:27.529 --> 00:28:30.269
on the road to propel yourself forward. So you do
566
00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:34.119
need some friction. But if it's too high, then your
567
00:28:34.180 --> 00:28:38.940
car has a much lower maximum speed. It reduces how
568
00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:42.440
fast your car can go. So this is the point
569
00:28:42.460 --> 00:28:43.400
of equilibrium.
570
00:28:43.539 --> 00:28:46.049
You've got to find that balance point.
571
00:28:46.529 --> 00:28:48.930
Yeah, there's always a balance. There's always a compromise. You
572
00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:52.130
need some, but not too much. And then if you're
573
00:28:52.210 --> 00:28:55.349
looking at an ice sport like skiing or something like that,
574
00:28:55.950 --> 00:28:58.750
you're looking at trying to minimize friction. But it's always,
575
00:28:58.990 --> 00:29:02.009
you do need some, but just not everything. Because if
576
00:29:02.049 --> 00:29:04.670
you have too much friction, things just grind to a halt.
577
00:29:06.150 --> 00:29:09.579
Laurie, about 50 years ago, Formula One stumbled across a
578
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:15.460
thing called carbon-carbon, if I'm not mistaken. And since then,
579
00:29:15.819 --> 00:29:18.079
it's been part of the space shuttle.
580
00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:19.660
What's the connection between that?
581
00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:24.049
Yeah, carbon-carbon is one of the materials that's used a
582
00:29:24.069 --> 00:29:26.869
lot in Formula One because it's very, very strong and
583
00:29:26.910 --> 00:29:31.329
it's very, very light. And in Formula One's context, it's
584
00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:36.470
used in brakes. So it's used as a lightweight way
585
00:29:36.549 --> 00:29:40.130
to produce a strong surface that you can... you know,
586
00:29:40.210 --> 00:29:43.900
interact with. And as with most things, you know, they
587
00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:47.079
find applications elsewhere. I don't actually know which one came
588
00:29:47.140 --> 00:29:50.599
first in terms of carbon-carbon, whether it was developed specifically
589
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.839
for Formula One or whether it came about as a
590
00:29:52.900 --> 00:29:56.559
by-product of another industry. But yeah, it is very much,
591
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:58.720
it is very important material now.
592
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.359
Wait, Laurie, forgive me, but can we be a little
593
00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:05.049
more explicit than just saying carbon-carbon? Can you tell me
594
00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:08.230
what the hell that is? I've heard of Duran-Duran. Fair point.
595
00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:10.950
And New York-New York. Yeah, New York-New York.
596
00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:12.710
Saatchi and Saatchi.
597
00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:13.029
So, like.
598
00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:23.480
Yeah, no, no, that's a fair point. So like if
599
00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:25.500
you've heard of carbon fiber, you might have heard of that.
600
00:30:25.579 --> 00:30:28.839
It's carbon, you know, it's like long strands of carbon
601
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:32.720
fiber arranged in some sort of matrix, some sort of polymer.
602
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.440
But carbon-carbon is those carbon fibers that have been arranged
603
00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:41.789
in a matrix of graphite. So the actual matrix itself
604
00:30:41.890 --> 00:30:45.089
is carbon, but just little flakes of carbon. And then
605
00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:48.690
the fibers going through it are these very aligned carbon fibers.
606
00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:51.660
So it is carbon- and carbon in two different forms.
607
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.720
So two different forms of carbon. Got it. So if
608
00:30:54.740 --> 00:30:57.500
you threw in like diamond, you'd have carbon, carbon, carbon.
609
00:30:57.880 --> 00:30:59.119
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
610
00:30:59.359 --> 00:30:59.880
Just checking.
611
00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:00.700
Carbon cubes.
612
00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:03.799
And then as we found in the universe, as well
613
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:08.319
as in the lab, there's buckyballs, right? Carbon 60, another
614
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.579
form of carbon. So just throw it all in there.
615
00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:12.119
Get carbon, carbon, carbon, carbon.
616
00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:14.150
Exactly. Formula One has the money for it, really.
617
00:31:14.630 --> 00:31:15.500
Yeah, sure they do.
618
00:31:17.500 --> 00:31:20.619
And they used that money to do something that I
619
00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:22.519
think a lot of people have been hoping to do
620
00:31:22.579 --> 00:31:24.539
for a long time when they got a KERS system,
621
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.000
the Kinetic Energy Recovery System.
622
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:27.700
Oh, yeah.
623
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.759
And how advanced was their thinking to be able to
624
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:36.180
bring that forward for motorsport? But we haven't seen it
625
00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:39.549
in the general public.
626
00:31:39.869 --> 00:31:40.529
Transport, have we?
627
00:31:40.569 --> 00:31:43.809
You see a version of it. Well, I have a
628
00:31:43.849 --> 00:31:45.369
regenerative braking. Is that the same thing? Yeah, I was
629
00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:47.619
going to say that's a version of it. Regenerative braking.
630
00:31:48.230 --> 00:31:51.380
Yeah, it's the same thing. Once we started putting electric
631
00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:54.279
motors into our cars, that becomes something that you can,
632
00:31:54.380 --> 00:31:56.920
that's a really useful form of energy to capture, yeah.
633
00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.500
Capture and return to the electric motor.
634
00:32:00.049 --> 00:32:02.529
So what, does it hand it to a flywheel or something?
635
00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:08.329
Or is it a, in what form is it recaptured as?
636
00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:12.440
And by the way, you should probably explain the whole concept,
637
00:32:12.460 --> 00:32:15.500
because clearly we're all familiar, and I feel like we're
638
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:19.950
a little inside baseball right now.
639
00:32:20.130 --> 00:32:21.569
Yeah, so it's like, with the idea.
640
00:32:21.589 --> 00:32:25.299
Chuck, we're inside friction, not inside baseball. Well played, Sarah,
641
00:32:25.339 --> 00:32:28.599
well played.
642
00:32:28.900 --> 00:32:31.920
Yeah, so the regenerative braking is effectively when you put
643
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:36.539
the brake on, you effectively turn your motor into a generator.
644
00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:40.619
So you flip it around, you flip around its behavior.
645
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.960
So it generates electricity. So yeah, in a Formula One car,
646
00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:47.789
I believe it is just used in terms of electricity.
647
00:32:47.829 --> 00:32:50.470
It is just captured and used elsewhere in the car,
648
00:32:50.509 --> 00:32:53.069
but I'm actually not sure. So I won't pretend I know.
649
00:32:53.730 --> 00:32:55.450
Wait, wait, just to be clear, you said when you
650
00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:58.549
put the brake on. Let me clarify that. What you
651
00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:03.069
mean is when you press the brake pedal, brake pads
652
00:33:03.109 --> 00:33:08.319
are not touching your wheel. What's happening is the forward
653
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:14.099
motion of your car is getting sucked away back into,
654
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.640
isn't that what's happening? Yeah, that's it. That's it. It's brilliant.
655
00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:24.049
your kinetic energy is getting absorbed without even using friction
656
00:33:24.309 --> 00:33:24.690
in that sense.
657
00:33:24.710 --> 00:33:24.910
Yeah.
658
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:29.339
Yeah. Cause usually brakes are just about like slamming on
659
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:30.700
the friction as high as possible.
660
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:38.000
Flintstone feet. Do they have Flintstones in New Zealand? I
661
00:33:38.019 --> 00:33:39.119
don't know. Yeah.
662
00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:41.000
I remember them as a kid though. Yeah. I definitely
663
00:33:41.059 --> 00:33:43.180
watched Flintstones.
664
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.660
Yeah. That's the accelerator pedal and the brakes.
665
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:46.500
Yeah.
666
00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:55.079
Big old three toed feet. He had four fingers and
667
00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:58.099
three toes. That disturbed me more than the fact that
668
00:33:58.119 --> 00:33:59.559
they're living in the stone age with.
669
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.940
Do you know that this is the first time that
670
00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:03.519
I have heard that?
671
00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:05.920
And you're right. You never noticed that?
672
00:34:06.259 --> 00:34:07.319
I never noticed that.
673
00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:10.139
Oh my gosh. I think at least give the man
674
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:12.139
four toes to match his four fingers.
675
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:16.349
Isn't there something about when the animator draws a hand
676
00:34:16.369 --> 00:34:18.929
with four fingers and a thumb, it looks wrong.
677
00:34:20.269 --> 00:34:23.369
And so that's why they take away one digit.
678
00:34:23.690 --> 00:34:29.199
Okay, so Gary, four fingers never looked right to me, okay? Ever,
679
00:34:29.340 --> 00:34:31.940
and especially not the three toes with his big old
680
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:32.840
caveman feet.
681
00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:33.860
No.
682
00:34:35.739 --> 00:34:37.099
But they make great frames. We're going to take a break.
683
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:41.489
We're talking about friction. Regenerative recovery. We're talking about friction.
684
00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:46.409
We're talking about Formula One. We got rubber. We got
685
00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:51.610
gecko feet. All in one freaking conversation. Go figure. And
686
00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:54.110
at the center of all that is Laurie Winklis. We'll
687
00:34:54.150 --> 00:35:00.349
be right back. We're back. StarTalk Sports Edition. Everything friction
688
00:35:00.670 --> 00:35:05.489
and surfaces with one of the world's greatest exponents of
689
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:08.789
this subject that I have ever seen, Laurie Winklis, who's
690
00:35:08.829 --> 00:35:12.130
coming to us from New Zealand. Laurie, thanks for being
691
00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:16.809
on StarTalk and illuminating us with all of your surface wisdom.
692
00:35:17.750 --> 00:35:18.610
My pleasure.
693
00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.219
So when someone says, you know, it's only skin deep,
694
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.280
you're saying, yeah.
695
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.219
Exactly.
696
00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:30.860
That's where the action is. Exactly. So we've talked about
697
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:35.590
what you've learned sort of scientifically from Mother Nature. And
698
00:35:35.630 --> 00:35:38.269
at the end of the day, stuff only really happens
699
00:35:38.329 --> 00:35:39.510
if people can make money.
700
00:35:39.409 --> 00:35:39.780
Off of it.
701
00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:45.440
If there's sort of product development. Applications. Applications that can
702
00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:49.239
improve what we already have. or invent something new that
703
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.940
we never thought we needed. So do you have some
704
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:54.579
good examples of that, maybe?
705
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.199
Yeah, I'll give you one that it's still, I would say,
706
00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:00.559
at the research end of the R & D scale,
707
00:36:00.579 --> 00:36:03.719
but it's pretty exciting. And if it works, it could
708
00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:06.050
give us boats that never get wet, which I think
709
00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:07.659
is pretty cool.
710
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:09.469
Boats that never get wet?
711
00:36:09.849 --> 00:36:11.090
They never get wet, no.
712
00:36:11.349 --> 00:36:11.989
Wow.
713
00:36:12.409 --> 00:36:15.110
That's like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, square sweets that
714
00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:15.570
look round.
715
00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:20.530
Yeah, exactly. Precisely, Gary. Yeah. Okay.
716
00:36:20.869 --> 00:36:24.409
Yeah. So wait a minute. Let me just put this out.
717
00:36:24.489 --> 00:36:25.659
I mean, let me think this through.
718
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.699
If the boat never gets wet, but it's moving through water,
719
00:36:30.300 --> 00:36:33.840
then that's about as frictionless as you could ever get.
720
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.349
Yes. It's just moving through air. Super fast boats. Is
721
00:36:37.369 --> 00:36:37.710
that right?
722
00:36:38.309 --> 00:36:40.130
Yeah. And you've got, if you think about the fact
723
00:36:40.170 --> 00:36:43.750
that like 90% of the world's trade happens by sea. Right.
724
00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:48.219
If we could reduce the friction that those massive container
725
00:36:48.260 --> 00:36:50.739
ships experience as they move through the water, you reduce
726
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.820
the amount of fuel they use. You improve the environmental,
727
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.800
you know, properties of that. So that is like something
728
00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.119
that a lot of different technologies are attempting to do.
729
00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:03.179
And you can already get boats that, you know, have
730
00:37:03.219 --> 00:37:06.280
a low friction coating on them. But one of the
731
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.639
things I came across and I thought was really cool
732
00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:12.380
is there's this fern plant. It's called a salvinia fern,
733
00:37:12.659 --> 00:37:16.059
and it's usually like an invasive species. It forms these
734
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.449
massive mats on the surface of waterways, so it can
735
00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:23.489
often cause damage to anything living in the waterway. But
736
00:37:23.530 --> 00:37:27.050
the cool thing about it is that it is incredibly hydrophobic.
737
00:37:27.309 --> 00:37:29.969
So if you've heard of the lotus effect, which is
738
00:37:30.010 --> 00:37:33.510
this idea that the lotus is always pristine water, nothing
739
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:36.789
sticks to it, nothing ever, dirt doesn't touch it. It's
740
00:37:36.849 --> 00:37:39.780
kind of like that, but way better. It's way more impressive.
741
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:43.760
And when scientists started to study what it is that
742
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:48.159
makes this plant so good at repelling water, they started
743
00:37:48.219 --> 00:37:50.280
by looking at the surface. So in a way, it's
744
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:53.260
kind of gecko-like. It's covered in loads and loads of hairs.
745
00:37:54.019 --> 00:37:56.969
And each one of those hairs is shaped a bit
746
00:37:57.010 --> 00:37:59.570
like a whisk, right? So it's kind of got four,
747
00:38:00.150 --> 00:38:02.630
it breaks into four points that join at the top.
748
00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:06.900
The whole leaf and all of these hairs are covered
749
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.969
in a waxy surface, which makes it water repellent. But
750
00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:12.329
the cool thing is the very tip of that whisk
751
00:38:12.829 --> 00:38:17.190
is not water repellent. It's water attracting. It's hydrophilic. It
752
00:38:17.230 --> 00:38:21.960
attracts water. So what that means is that you trap
753
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.900
a layer of air. The leaf traps a layer of
754
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:29.519
air in its hairs. And because water is pinned onto
755
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:31.940
the top of each one of those hairs, the air
756
00:38:32.019 --> 00:38:35.610
can't get out and the water can't penetrate in. So
757
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.949
you have this permanent layer of air that the leaf
758
00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:40.750
has around itself.
759
00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:44.869
You're really explaining kind of a microscopic hydrofoil.
760
00:38:45.469 --> 00:38:47.769
Yeah, well, this is, and this is where, when like,
761
00:38:48.289 --> 00:38:51.070
when the botanists kind of realized that this is what's
762
00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:53.949
going on, they managed to recreate it. They managed to
763
00:38:53.989 --> 00:38:56.530
kind of produce coatings that have a similar structure, this
764
00:38:56.590 --> 00:39:00.820
combination of hydrophobic, so water repellent, and hydrophilic, water attractant.
765
00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:04.579
and capturing this band of air. So what they want
766
00:39:04.619 --> 00:39:07.260
to do is develop a coating that you could apply
767
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:11.010
to a boat that retains a layer of air around
768
00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:14.889
it permanently, a stable layer of air. And there are
769
00:39:14.929 --> 00:39:17.829
some boats that have these, they produce bubbles, like there's
770
00:39:17.869 --> 00:39:20.949
an actual system that spritz out bubbles around the edge
771
00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:23.469
of a boat to try and reduce the friction in
772
00:39:23.510 --> 00:39:26.170
a similar way, but it's just not as stable as
773
00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:29.480
something that would be you know, a solid layer of air.
774
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:32.239
I thought I remembered a TV, was it a TV commercial?
775
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.840
I might've been, you know, YouTube surfing. I think I was.
776
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:41.070
And I came across, it was like a container of
777
00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:47.849
mayonnaise and a container of ketchup. Yes. Two famously bottle
778
00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:49.070
sticking substances.
779
00:39:49.130 --> 00:39:49.369
Yeah.
780
00:39:49.670 --> 00:39:52.429
That, And they just tipped over the mayonnaise and all
781
00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:54.449
the mayonnaise just came right out of the container. And
782
00:39:54.489 --> 00:39:56.989
they tipped the ketchup bottle and all the ketchup just came.
783
00:39:57.010 --> 00:39:59.739
Nobody was shaking it or pounding it or squeezing it.
784
00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:02.269
Did it have one of these surfaces that you're talking about?
785
00:40:02.449 --> 00:40:03.849
No, it's actually got another surface.
786
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.260
It's called slips.
787
00:40:06.460 --> 00:40:08.260
There's so many. There's so many.
788
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:10.880
Out of control. Oh my gosh.
789
00:40:11.099 --> 00:40:14.639
We're filthy with surfaces. You see now why I had
790
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:18.260
to write a whole book about them? Because they're just amazing. Yes. Yeah,
791
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.139
so that's a different material actually. And what it does
792
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.719
is it basically, they put a coating that's porous, so
793
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:26.349
it's got loads of holes in it, but then those
794
00:40:26.389 --> 00:40:28.929
holes are filled with water. So it's kind of using
795
00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:34.449
water to stop other liquids from sticking to it. So
796
00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:37.710
they've textured it in a way that it traps its
797
00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:41.690
own little layer of water so that the ketchup then
798
00:40:41.710 --> 00:40:42.809
just falls out of the mayonnaise.
799
00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:44.710
Just to show you how biased we are just as
800
00:40:44.949 --> 00:40:48.440
members of civilization. I'm looking at that demo and I'm thinking,
801
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:51.719
what's wrong with the ketchup? Exactly. I'm not eating that ketchup.
802
00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:55.159
I'm thinking it's a ketchup issue, not a surface issue.
803
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:56.280
That's what I'm thinking to myself.
804
00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:57.820
It does look a bit creepy.
805
00:40:57.929 --> 00:41:02.110
It looks creepy. You know, it looks creepy. God made
806
00:41:02.150 --> 00:41:04.690
ketchup to stick to the inside of the bottle. Right.
807
00:41:04.750 --> 00:41:05.010
Exactly.
808
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.980
That's like seeing peanut butter slide out of a jar.
809
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:09.280
That's wrong.
810
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.719
If you ever saw peanut butter slide out of anything, you.
811
00:41:12.489 --> 00:41:13.750
Would not be there.
812
00:41:13.869 --> 00:41:14.530
Run. Walk.
813
00:41:14.929 --> 00:41:18.070
Don't run. That peanut butter is sentient, okay?
814
00:41:19.190 --> 00:41:22.110
No, totally. It is quite disconcerting, I have to say.
815
00:41:23.630 --> 00:41:29.349
Well, what about when you talk about surfaces that slip
816
00:41:29.409 --> 00:41:32.610
and slide? Mm-hmm. Is there anything that can make something
817
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.800
more aerodynamic? Like you put a coating on a football
818
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.539
and now, you know, instead of being able to throw
819
00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:40.780
it 30 yards, I can throw it 50 yards or
820
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:42.949
kick it more, more importantly.
821
00:41:43.710 --> 00:41:43.909
Yeah.
822
00:41:43.929 --> 00:41:44.150
Yeah.
823
00:41:44.190 --> 00:41:45.969
Good point. And actually that's kind of where like golf
824
00:41:46.030 --> 00:41:48.550
balls came from as well. Cause the original golf balls were,
825
00:41:48.849 --> 00:41:52.300
were smooth. Um, and they were made from, um, basically
826
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.019
they pack loads of a ball of leather with these feathers,
827
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:58.239
make it really, really hard, smooth surface. But they realised
828
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:01.190
that the ball would travel further when it had been
829
00:42:01.269 --> 00:42:03.190
dinged up a bit. So when it had some like
830
00:42:03.250 --> 00:42:06.909
dents in it. So there was a scientist who designed
831
00:42:06.989 --> 00:42:08.889
a pattern, which is now what we know as a
832
00:42:08.929 --> 00:42:12.730
golf ball pattern, this dimpled pattern. And that reduces the
833
00:42:12.769 --> 00:42:15.730
drag on a golf ball by playing with the way
834
00:42:15.769 --> 00:42:19.969
that the air flows around it and and the formation
835
00:42:20.010 --> 00:42:24.829
of these little vortexes, these little areas of low pressure, um, it, that,
836
00:42:25.090 --> 00:42:29.530
that dimple pattern kind of makes, it plays around with turbulence, uh,
837
00:42:29.590 --> 00:42:31.639
in an, or in a way to reduce drag. So
838
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:35.159
like a dimpled ball will travel about, about twice as
839
00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:38.760
far as a smooth golf ball of the same dimension.
840
00:42:38.780 --> 00:42:42.690
So it's really traveling in its own pocket of, of,
841
00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:46.010
low friction air. Is that a fair way to say that? Yeah.
842
00:42:46.090 --> 00:42:48.710
Like everything moving through the air has a layer of
843
00:42:49.010 --> 00:42:52.380
kind of stuck air molecules right on its surface. And
844
00:42:52.590 --> 00:42:54.860
as the air, as you get further away from the surface,
845
00:42:54.940 --> 00:42:56.360
the air moves more and more and more.
846
00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.539
You know, air sticks to me all the time.
847
00:42:58.559 --> 00:42:58.699
I try.
848
00:42:58.719 --> 00:42:59.079
Exactly.
849
00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:02.880
It's a pain. It's so sticky.
850
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.239
Who's ever thinking that way?
851
00:43:06.139 --> 00:43:07.599
Is that the sort of thing that's going on with
852
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:10.590
an aircraft, say, that was flying at 30,000 feet? The
853
00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:14.210
temperature outside, the air temperature outside is minus something silly.
854
00:43:14.809 --> 00:43:15.869
Yeah, yeah.
855
00:43:15.869 --> 00:43:16.610
40 below.
856
00:43:17.210 --> 00:43:21.110
Yeah, and yet there's an issue for overheating. What are
857
00:43:21.139 --> 00:43:23.079
we experiencing with that?
858
00:43:23.539 --> 00:43:26.639
Yeah, it's exactly that. It's skin friction. So it's effectively
859
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:31.070
the air molecules– bashing into other air molecules that are
860
00:43:31.090 --> 00:43:36.610
stuck onto the surface of the aircraft. And even though many,
861
00:43:36.630 --> 00:43:39.210
it depends on the altitude, of course, but the density
862
00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:42.119
of air can be lower than it is on the
863
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:44.840
surface of the earth. There's still plenty of air molecules
864
00:43:44.900 --> 00:43:48.179
to bash into one another. So the moving.
865
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:49.619
Through the air- Especially at 500 miles an hour, right?
866
00:43:49.659 --> 00:43:52.239
Yeah, exactly. Moving through the air at high speeds, you
867
00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:56.139
are causing massive transfers of kinetic energy. You know, you
868
00:43:56.179 --> 00:43:58.559
are bashing air molecules out of the way like crazy.
869
00:43:59.059 --> 00:44:01.969
And in that process, you lose some, some of that
870
00:44:02.010 --> 00:44:06.929
kinetic energy transforms into heat energy, transforms into that, the
871
00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:09.110
high temperatures on the surface. So like a lot of
872
00:44:09.130 --> 00:44:12.869
the very, very high speed aircrafts and like re-entry vehicles,
873
00:44:13.429 --> 00:44:17.219
they've been designed, they're, their surface chemistry has been really
874
00:44:17.380 --> 00:44:21.840
particularly designed to be able to cope with that happening
875
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:26.849
on their surface. That's why heat shields are so important.
876
00:44:27.210 --> 00:44:31.070
I mean, we've discussed surfaces contacting each other, but we
877
00:44:31.110 --> 00:44:36.860
haven't discussed how we as humans interact with surfaces, particularly
878
00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:41.699
through our own skin. What happens at a molecular level
879
00:44:42.849 --> 00:44:45.969
when we are touching and feeling surfaces.
880
00:44:46.570 --> 00:44:49.389
And how do I become Spider-Man with my own form
881
00:44:49.429 --> 00:44:50.230
of gecko feet?
882
00:44:50.969 --> 00:44:53.260
Well, yeah, there's a dude, I think he's at San
883
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:56.440
Diego University, Chuck, who could sort you out. He developed
884
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.360
a climber based on the gecko tape. So he managed
885
00:44:59.380 --> 00:45:01.659
to scale a building, well, a few stories of a
886
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:03.920
building on his own gecko.
887
00:45:04.659 --> 00:45:10.300
But it is true, however, there are some things... You know, sometimes,
888
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:12.780
I don't know, it depends on how oily or not
889
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:16.199
your skin is. There could be something on the ground
890
00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:18.739
and you just touch it and it sticks. Like a
891
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.159
playing card maybe will stick to your finger. Sometimes a
892
00:45:22.179 --> 00:45:26.159
penny might stick to your finger. Yeah. Some light little
893
00:45:26.219 --> 00:45:28.219
things will stick to your finger. But I don't want
894
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:31.769
to claim gecko powers. So what's going on with that
895
00:45:31.809 --> 00:45:32.369
when that happens?
896
00:45:33.010 --> 00:45:38.190
It's basically that we're a bit damp. Humans have this constant.
897
00:45:37.670 --> 00:45:38.369
Layer of water.
898
00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:40.590
I thought it was going to be a deep explanation, Laurie.
899
00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:41.190
No, unfortunately not.
900
00:45:41.210 --> 00:45:43.199
It's just that we're sweaty.
901
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:47.260
Yeah. We just have water on us. And usually that's
902
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:52.119
enough to get effectively a capillary force. The water that are,
903
00:45:52.139 --> 00:45:54.639
you know, we are producing water all the time. We respire.
904
00:45:55.610 --> 00:45:58.110
So we are constantly covered in a little, very thin
905
00:45:58.150 --> 00:46:00.210
layer of water. And sometimes that means that we can
906
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:03.619
you know, stick a spoon to our nose or we
907
00:46:03.659 --> 00:46:06.739
can pick up a piece of paper just by touching it.
908
00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:09.800
I thought it was the vaccine that made that happen.
909
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.960
I thought it.
910
00:46:12.019 --> 00:46:14.239
Was the vaccine. Just like got vaccinated.
911
00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:17.820
Look at me. I'm magnetic now. I don't know who's
912
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:20.050
going to fix this.
913
00:46:20.110 --> 00:46:24.929
Laurie, before, before we, we, we have to let you go, sadly. Um, we,
914
00:46:25.030 --> 00:46:26.929
I mean, we'd thrilled by the gecko. I think we
915
00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:28.880
all have, um, Are there any other.
916
00:46:28.900 --> 00:46:30.800
Can you join the show? Can you be another.
917
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:33.650
Yeah, sure. No problem. Anytime.
918
00:46:34.610 --> 00:46:36.789
Are there any other species out there that are kind
919
00:46:36.849 --> 00:46:38.550
of like owning it?
920
00:46:39.429 --> 00:46:40.130
Like the gecko?
921
00:46:40.570 --> 00:46:40.869
Yes.
922
00:46:41.389 --> 00:46:41.670
Yes.
923
00:46:41.690 --> 00:46:42.889
Ooh, go on. Sharks.
924
00:46:44.010 --> 00:46:44.510
What?
925
00:46:44.989 --> 00:46:45.449
Sharks are.
926
00:46:45.570 --> 00:46:47.340
Furry, furry, cuddly sharks.
927
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.010
Sharks. They are just... Perfect.
928
00:46:50.070 --> 00:46:50.869
Okay, but wait a minute.
929
00:46:51.030 --> 00:46:54.510
Why would a shark need to grip anything? Oh, she's
930
00:46:54.530 --> 00:46:55.610
talking about surfaces.
931
00:46:55.849 --> 00:46:56.679
It's the offices.
932
00:46:57.860 --> 00:47:01.940
Oh, how they move through the water. Who owns their surface? Yes.
933
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:04.340
There you go. Keep going, Laurie. I'm still stuck on gecko,
934
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:04.920
but I get you now.
935
00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:05.619
No, I don't blame you.
936
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.800
I see what you did there. Stuck on gecko, yes. Yay.
937
00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:09.940
Go on, Laurie.
938
00:47:09.980 --> 00:47:11.380
Don't mind Chuck.
939
00:47:11.460 --> 00:47:13.219
Just ignore him. Go.
940
00:47:13.980 --> 00:47:17.119
Sharks are incredible. If you look at their skin, you
941
00:47:17.139 --> 00:47:19.590
don't even have to have a particularly fancy microscope. Don't
942
00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:21.610
do this to a living shark, right? I'm talking about
943
00:47:21.650 --> 00:47:26.230
like a museum. Don't touch a shark. But their skin
944
00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:29.000
is covered in these features called dermal denticles. And they're
945
00:47:29.019 --> 00:47:33.340
like very tiny scales. They're kind of like scales, but
946
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:37.280
they're actually 3D. They're a real structure. And what scientists
947
00:47:37.300 --> 00:47:40.449
have realized is that we kind of knew that the
948
00:47:40.570 --> 00:47:43.289
shape and the placement of those denticles all over a
949
00:47:43.349 --> 00:47:46.869
shark's body must have something to do with reducing drag.
950
00:47:47.130 --> 00:47:49.030
It must have something to do with making it easier
951
00:47:49.050 --> 00:47:51.369
for them to move through the water. But what scientists
952
00:47:51.409 --> 00:47:54.820
realized in more recent years is that what's happening with
953
00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:57.519
these dermal denticles is that on some parts of a
954
00:47:57.539 --> 00:48:03.039
shark's body, it's the flow of water around this denticle
955
00:48:03.619 --> 00:48:06.900
actually behaves in a way as if it's gone in reverse.
956
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:11.059
So it's as if the water is actually pushing the
957
00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:15.679
shark forward. It's not just reducing drag. It's actively helping
958
00:48:15.739 --> 00:48:18.760
the shark to accelerate through the water.
959
00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:25.760
So the shark is drafting itself. Yeah. That is unbelievable.
960
00:48:26.179 --> 00:48:27.190
OK, but wait a minute.
961
00:48:27.210 --> 00:48:30.369
But Laurie, let's bring in some evolution here. Because I
962
00:48:30.389 --> 00:48:33.750
got a question. You know, I don't, I can't claim
963
00:48:33.789 --> 00:48:36.030
to have hung out with sharks. Okay. So I don't
964
00:48:36.389 --> 00:48:40.329
know of what I say speak, but I don't pick
965
00:48:40.750 --> 00:48:47.389
sure sharks in high pursuit of their prey. I picture
966
00:48:47.449 --> 00:48:49.929
them stalking their prey.
967
00:48:50.409 --> 00:48:50.750
Yeah.
968
00:48:50.829 --> 00:48:57.059
Right. And, and so why would speed have been selected
969
00:48:57.139 --> 00:49:02.159
for in their skin water surfaces? if that's not really
970
00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:03.000
what they're doing.
971
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:07.539
Very good point. I think the kind of the idea
972
00:49:07.619 --> 00:49:10.780
around it now is that these denticles have a different
973
00:49:10.820 --> 00:49:13.269
role to play on different parts of the body. So
974
00:49:13.289 --> 00:49:16.190
there are different sizes and shapes depending on, and they
975
00:49:16.230 --> 00:49:20.449
differ between species of sharks as well. So some sharks are...
976
00:49:20.210 --> 00:49:23.369
more of a, they're more about speed. They're more about
977
00:49:23.409 --> 00:49:28.429
reducing drag. But in terms of increasing speed and reducing drag,
978
00:49:28.610 --> 00:49:30.929
really what that does is it decreases the amount of
979
00:49:31.030 --> 00:49:33.699
energy a shark needs to use to push its way
980
00:49:33.739 --> 00:49:34.340
through the water.
981
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:39.219
And importantly, because sharks have to move in order to breathe,
982
00:49:39.869 --> 00:49:43.170
you would want that to, you would like that to
983
00:49:43.190 --> 00:49:46.179
be as easy as possible. Because when you do need
984
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:49.260
to go hunt, you haven't used up all your energy
985
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:50.539
swimming around so you can breathe.
986
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:53.139
I'll give that because I just know that if sharks
987
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:57.139
were fast moving, chasing you down to meet predators, then
988
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:07.650
you couldn't have that slow cello in Jaws. You know, that, that, that, that,
989
00:50:08.010 --> 00:50:14.840
is it a cello or a bass? So whichever it is,
990
00:50:15.579 --> 00:50:17.760
that's not the music you hear of something rapidly chasing
991
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:21.269
something else. So it all worked out. It all worked
992
00:50:21.349 --> 00:50:24.019
out for the movie. And by the way... We're going
993
00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:27.369
to need a bigger boat. Thank you. Chuck, you know,
994
00:50:27.429 --> 00:50:31.369
I thought you were above that, Chuck. You've got the
995
00:50:31.469 --> 00:50:33.730
lowest hanging fruit.
996
00:50:33.750 --> 00:50:35.010
That fruit was already.
997
00:50:34.750 --> 00:50:38.260
On the ground. If you ever mention Jaws, I have
998
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:38.949
to say that.
999
00:50:39.139 --> 00:50:39.559
I can't.
1000
00:50:39.820 --> 00:50:46.320
I have to. It's a law. So, Laurie, I think
1001
00:50:46.340 --> 00:50:47.900
we've got to close this out. Do you have a
1002
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:49.619
social media we can track you down on?
1003
00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:52.510
Yeah, I'm on Twitter like way too much. So I'm
1004
00:50:52.699 --> 00:50:54.550
at Laurie underscore Winklis.
1005
00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:56.510
And your books, tell me the titles again. They were
1006
00:50:56.550 --> 00:50:57.050
so great.
1007
00:50:57.349 --> 00:51:00.190
So Sticky is just out. It's literally just came out
1008
00:51:00.230 --> 00:51:02.730
a month ago in the US. So Sticky, The Secret
1009
00:51:02.750 --> 00:51:07.239
Science of Surfaces. And my older book is Science and
1010
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.199
the City. And that's all about how cities work and
1011
00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:12.420
what happens in the metropolis.
1012
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.130
This is beautiful. I love it. I love it. And
1013
00:51:15.170 --> 00:51:16.769
what are you working on now? What can we do
1014
00:51:16.809 --> 00:51:19.090
in the future? Because we totally want to bring you back.
1015
00:51:19.150 --> 00:51:20.869
So give us an excuse to bring you back.
1016
00:51:20.889 --> 00:51:21.889
Thank you.
1017
00:51:21.929 --> 00:51:23.650
Well, what I'm working on right now is an article
1018
00:51:23.670 --> 00:51:26.190
on chocolate making, physics of chocolate making, which is something
1019
00:51:26.230 --> 00:51:28.489
I'm finding quite interesting. But I've no.
1020
00:51:28.710 --> 00:51:30.030
Can we book you tomorrow?
1021
00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:35.099
By the way, can we do some research for you?
1022
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.179
Yeah, I'll send you some samples.
1023
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:40.699
Okay. But yeah, nothing else immediate. No more books in
1024
00:51:40.739 --> 00:51:43.019
the immediate pipeline anyway. Take a break for a little while.
1025
00:51:43.630 --> 00:51:46.829
We got to end it there. So Gary, Chuck, always
1026
00:51:46.849 --> 00:51:49.769
good to have you doing this. Pleasure. All right. And Lori,
1027
00:51:49.849 --> 00:51:51.929
it's been a delight to have you on this program.
1028
00:51:51.969 --> 00:51:55.670
We learned so much about stuff we didn't even know
1029
00:51:55.730 --> 00:51:57.880
there was something to learn about. So that's always a
1030
00:51:57.909 --> 00:52:01.139
good day, at least for me and I'm sure for.
1031
00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:03.780
Chuck and Gary. It was super fun. I listened to
1032
00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:05.519
the show, so it was really fun to be on.
1033
00:52:05.539 --> 00:52:05.940
Oh, you do?
1034
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:06.360
Okay.
1035
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:07.239
Well, thanks for being here.
1036
00:52:08.530 --> 00:52:08.909
Excellent.
1037
00:52:09.070 --> 00:52:11.150
Excellent. So I hope we lived up to your expectations.
1038
00:52:11.309 --> 00:52:11.710
Very much.
1039
00:52:11.869 --> 00:52:14.880
You certainly exceeded ours. So, all right. This has been
1040
00:52:14.909 --> 00:52:18.659
StarTalk Sports Edition. Neil deGrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you
1041
00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:19.920
to keep looking up.