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Welcome back to the Starborn Parenting Podcast.
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I'm Rick Abina.
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And I'm Madeline Jurgensen.
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And Madeline, we have our first guests of the podcast.
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I know.
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I'm excited.
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I've been looking forward to this for like weeks now.
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Yeah.
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Welcome, Sophia and Christina.
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Thank you both for showing up.
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Yeah.
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Thanks for having us.
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We are talking about a daughter who recognized that she was eating food selectively, and she asked her mom, who happens to be a board-certified behavior analyst, for some help.
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And you know, this isn't a story about a parent forcing change, uh, but it's more about a child who is driving the change.
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And we are so excited to hear your stories.
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So with that, maybe you could uh tell us a little bit about yourself.
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So, Sophia, uh, where are you now and what's going on with life?
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Um, right now, I'm in my last few weeks of senior year.
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I graduate in two weeks.
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So excited.
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Thank you.
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And then after that, I'm going to Kent State for biochemistry.
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Very cool.
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And I can be prouder.
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Absolutely.
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Um, I'm a, as you mentioned, Rick, I'm a board certified behavior analyst.
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I have been helping students with disabilities for over 20 years.
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Um, I've worked with people of all ages in uh quite a different array of contexts, pre-vocational, clinical, worked on academic interventions, done a little bit of everything that way.
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Uh yeah.
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And being both a parent and a behavior analyst makes you acutely aware of what you could do to change your loved one's behavior, but what you probably shouldn't do yourself or without support to change your loved one's behavior.
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So yeah, it can it can get tricky out there.
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Matt and I talk about this all the time.
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You can know the science really well, but when you have people that you love and it's life is coming at you, it's hard to, you know, you're not thinking like, oh, I read chapter four, and in this situation I should do blah.
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That's not how life works.
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That's right.
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It is, it's an interesting dynamic.
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Well, Sophia, let's start with you.
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Tell us your story and uh what what were the the eating habits that you wanted to change back then?
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Just give us a sense of uh what that was like and how long ago was this?
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Fill us in on those details.
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So like ever since like my memory started happening, I guess, remember I had like self more self-awareness.
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I was only eating like maybe I wasn't even really eating the real food.
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I only ate hot pockets, this microwave breakfast sausage, fruit, and a cupcake.
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And that was like my meal until maybe like what was I like eight or something?
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And then the rest of what I ate were really just like snacks.
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So really the only healthy food I got was like the fruit.
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And I think I remember my grandma giving me like a pediature a few times, and I took like the Flintstone vitamins, but that was really it.
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And then eventually I tried regular pizza, and then that was the only thing I ate for a while.
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Um and then whenever I was 13, I was actually in therapy and I mentioned my food issues and how I was really anxious to go to friends' houses because I'm about to go in high school and it's like I can't really go out and have fun.
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And I'm so I felt really trapped about it.
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And my therapist suggested we do these like food exposures.
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So me and Christina made this list of food that like I would want to try, or is like pretty common in most places, so I can really go out with like friends more and eat with them because dinner was atrocious.
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So I had to like take a bite.
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I had to take three bites of a thing for what, wasn't it like three days?
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Three days, three bites of something.
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And if I liked it, then we just incorporated it more into like my diet and like our dinner time.
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So we would all have like a same dinner for once.
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I think you make a really good point, Sophia, the we we think about behaviors in the kids, and as parents, you look at your children and you know, it's like we might see behaviors, but it's like the kids themselves are also noticing behaviors, and you're mentioning that it's like causing rifts between you and your social connections that you have or you're trying to form.
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And it's like the behaviors that can really be like either enablers or inhibitors to our ability to connect with the people that we want around us.
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Absolutely.
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And you mentioned um before we were on air about a family you had served having these really challenging situations during COVID.
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This happened for us during COVID.
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And so we were wrangling this, okay, we have this very limited food repertoire, and also there's shortages of things, and we don't want to just cruise through Costco and wherever else for funsies because it was COVID.
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And so it was really challenging in that manner, too.
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And we had some conversations around uh addressing food stuff without the support of the therapist, and those didn't go as far.
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And so then it was really Sophia that re-initiated this with the assistance of her therapist, and we were able to go about it in a much more structured manner.
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Before the therapy like intervention, whenever I was presented something new, I would just stare at it and maybe sometimes cry because I was just so scared of eating it.
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I was I was really scared of throwing up or like the fear of just not liking it and then being mad I don't like it.
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Was it for you?
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Was it the taste?
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Was it the texture?
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What was the things that you felt like you didn't like?
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It was the taste for me.
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It was really never like texture, it's just like if it tastes bad, then it's like I'm gonna throw up.
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And then it's like I'm throwing up and that's disgusting.
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Yeah.
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It's understandable.
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I don't think anyone likes to throw up.
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Um, yeah, we work with clients.
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It's that's one of the questions that we try to look at, or what we're trying to figure out with our clients.
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It's like, okay, is it something like the way that something feels?
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Like some people don't like broccoli because of the way like it kind of falls apart in their mouth, or is it like maybe too squishy?
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Or yeah, it's like there's a lot of different things that can or smells um that can cause people to like find something aversive or you know unpleasant.
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When you talked about the therapy, was this something that you were getting outside of, or Christina, was this something you were working on?
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This was something we worked on as a family.
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So we had both family sessions with the therapist and uh Sophia had individual sessions.
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And specifically, we chose this therapist because I was able to vet that she was using some evidence-based practices.
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Um, and she had specific training in phobia and food selectivity.
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So when I found someone that was um savvy with exposure and response prevention, I was like, okay, you don't have to call it behavior analysis.
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I know there's something good in it, and we're gonna get everything we can from it.
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So connecting with her, I really do think made it.
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I mean, of course, your effort made the biggest difference, but her her involvement really helped us turn a corner.
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There are some very technical words in the behavior science, and you just said a few of them.
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And was this one of the words that I'll I'll share with is called systematic desensitization, where you're really afraid of something, but the way you get over that is you introduce it in small little pieces.
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So the classic example is let's say you're afraid of spiders, like you're definitely afraid of spiders.
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And what you do is maybe someone outside the door shows you a picture of a spider.
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It's like really removed, you can handle that.
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And then maybe they get closer to you and show you that picture.
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It's like, okay, here's this picture.
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And then maybe they put a plastic spider down there.
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In other words, there's these steps that you are systematically desensitizing the person to.
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And this this has gone on for years.
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It has so much evidence to it.
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Is this what you experienced, Sophia, when you were like you were moving along these stages where I mean you mentioned three bytes, but you know, is that where it started, or was there a step before that and a step after that?
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I mean, like the three bites is what what it started.
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And like now I now I just try stuff.
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Can you talk a little bit about the planning and the fear ladder work that you did to choose your target foods?
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So is it okay if I speak to it?
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I remember like I had to like rate my temperature.
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That's it.
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That's what I'm talking about.
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So sometimes they call that a fear ladder, but we called it temperature.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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Can you can you talk to oh wait, I know what you mean.
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So initially when we were picking target foods, you rated how scary they were, and we did the less scary foods first.
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Yeah.
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Remember, we called the the scary rating your temperature.
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Yeah.
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So the what do we call it?
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Low temp if they weren't scary.
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So a low temp food was an easy food in the fear hierarchy, and we worked easy to hard on targets.
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So that yes, there is that shaping bit that you're getting at, Rick, that you know, the spider behind the door versus the picture of the spider in front of you to the spider, fake spider on your shoulder.
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Um, the way that we incorporated that strategy was using this food rating scale, starting with the the least scary stuff first.
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Yeah.
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And that's kind of gets at in here and also as we talk about these things of being like um like socially valid, or we want the person that's doing the intervention to actually be enjoying and not, you know, we want it to be a positive experience for them from the very beginning.
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So it's like if your kid's afraid of water, you don't push them in a pool.
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You know, you start at one end and kind of like tiptoe in.
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Um, so it's good.
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Can you share a little bit more about like what were the foods kind of at like the bottom and like what made them what made them less scary, I guess, or low temps?
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Wish we still had this stupid list.
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Somewhere we probably data because of who we are as people.
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She she recorded all of it.
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I did.
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We we had like full probe data.
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Like, was it a huge list that you were working with, or was it kind of like like how hard was it, I guess, to make this list from the beginning?
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It wasn't that hard at first.
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I think I remember like some of the things I put on there first was like chicken nuggets.
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So I didn't I didn't even eat those, and that's like such a kid thing.
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I think we put rice on there for the bottom.
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Pasta.
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Yeah, pasta was pretty early.
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And I liked that really fast.
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You did.
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I well also I think he made me try tofu once.
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Because I just wanted you to have protein.
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Yeah.
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I didn't know.
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Yeah, you had no protein at that point.
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And spaghetti sauce was on there early too.
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Because so we also, in selecting foods for target foods, which then were rated by Sophia, I looked at what she ate and thought, okay, what is similar but different enough that this is a meaningful addition to her food repertoire?
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Tried to break down the food.
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So pizza was a an accepted, say, food for for a number of years at that point.
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So I'm thinking, all right, let's get bread in there, let's get sauce, let's get cheese in there.
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And then maybe we can recom re you know, recombine these tastes into some other deliciousness for you.
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So and it worked because pasta's one of your faves.
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Yeah, that well, that was my next question.
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Were there things on that list that you didn't like that now you really like?
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I mean, was there anything I didn't like at first?
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Um, yeah.
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I'm sorry I keep asking.
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I genuinely don't like it.
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No, no, that's a I remember I distinctly well that yeah, there definitely were things that you didn't like then that you like now because you've tried so many more things.
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Like I I would have never given you a soup dumpling back then and now Oh yeah.
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I mean the different types of pasta that you'll eat now.
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I don't know that you liked it all together initially.
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Like you you would eat pasta, but not pasta with sauce for a little while.
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No, I didn't.
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Yeah, you did.
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You initially you didn't like them together.
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The first time you tried them, you didn't like them together.
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Yeah.
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Oh because I remember being at full disclosure, I remember being really frustrated as your parent was like, Oh my gosh, we've done all this work.
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Ah Um, I don't know that you liked uh like a chicken, like fried up chicken.
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Like the nuggets were okay, but like a like a cutlet, like a chicken cutlet, that that wasn't great.
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And now um chicken parmesan, you devour, which is great.
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Um what else?
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Tacos?
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Did we try tacos?
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No.
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You I think I think that was one of the times where we just like ate ate it.
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You just went for it.
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Yeah, okay.
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Yeah.
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I want to go back though, make it and make point at something you just said because I thought it was really really powerful, is that you had this idea of okay, taking a food that she liked, which was the Hot Pockets, and then breaking that apart and seeing what components we can pull from and maybe upgrade those to more healthier options for each of those different components.
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And I think that's a good way to think about eating as well as other behaviors, but you know, breaking taking what's good, then breaking it apart, seeing what we can improve.
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So you took like okay, the bread, maybe move that to something else, maybe add the pasta, because it's all kind of like the Italian style.
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Um, and then you found something that worked.
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I think that's something that parents can take around as like a tip.
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Yeah, the other thing we did was we picked things not only because they were in terms of the nutritional value of the foods, they were a big improvement on the previously accepted foods.
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We considered that, but we also considered what foods get Sophia the most bang for her social buck.
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Um thinking, like to your point you said earlier, chicken nuggets are everywhere, they're totally a kid food.
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You know, there's very few places you can go and you can't find yourself chicken tender.
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So thinking thinking that way, um, there were some foods that ended up on the list like chicken tenders and chicken nuggets that definitely weren't there because they were these like paragons of nutritional health.
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Sophia, do you you you touched on this a little bit earlier, but what was the point that shifted for you?
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You you were you were saying that, well, when you would go visit, you'd have some anxiety, but do you remember there was a point that you realized like I need some help?
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I want to get rid of this uh selectivity and just eat more foods.
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Yeah, it it was it was just going to friends' houses and I would just wouldn't eat anything.
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And like I I felt sick because I was basically starving myself.
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And then I started to get more anxious about how other people viewed me, because like I'm I'm becoming a teenager, like it's all that stuff.
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So then I'm like people are noticing I'm not eating normally.
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So then it's like now I have to fix it.
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And then I wanted to go more places, like out of state, because when we went out of out of state for like or even on vacation, it was just a hassle because we had to find everything that was safe for me, and because it was so limited, what if they didn't have it?
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We ate a lot of Denny's pancakes.
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They like basically knew me.
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It was all fun they did.
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They really totally knew you.
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Yeah, I remember me and dad went to eat the the eating pork by grandma's almost, and I would ask for a specific waiter just because we were there like every day.
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Which I think that might underscore something that we didn't say is that in addition to having these very limited foods, you had limited ways you would accept said foods.
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So it wasn't just breakfast sausage, it was this brand of breakfast sausage prepared in this manner, served in this way, and almost all of it was super processed because that processed feature means that it's going to be very consistent session to session that you eat it.
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So um, something that we tried, but not in a systematic way, just as your parents, was to offer you a different version of a safe food.
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And that wasn't very effective because we didn't have all of the other supports around it, and we hadn't it wasn't something that we had done the work of including you in and giving you more, more control and choice in the matter.
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And I think that made a huge difference.
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I've seen with a lot of the families I worked with.
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I mentioned before we came on the show that they I had a family who their daughter only ate ego waffles, the miniature ones.
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And one of the reasons why they said was exactly what you said was that because it's the same thing.
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You get out of the box and they're exactly the same because they're highly processed.
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And so it removes that that diversity, like every little piece of diversity, it's the exact same piece.
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And that's like very, very comforting for a lot of the kids that we've worked with.
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Yeah, that's a really good point.
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Yeah.
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Because I mean, even when we make homemade meals, there's even every time you make a recipe, it's sometimes like a little bit different.
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And if you make a stew, you might not have the exact same amount of pieces of everything in every single bowl.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:22.000
Um, so actually it went with my daughter, we've started to, we started her off with a lot of stews, also because we our main goal is to have like homemade meals, hot meals every day for her for lunch.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.720
And uh stews are something we can make ahead of time so that they're prepped and ready to go.
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.920
So when I finish my work and we sit down for lunch, it's ready.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:39.359
Um, but it also kind of gets this thing of like she can't be super picky because sometimes there's more peas, sometimes there's less pea, sometimes chicken, sometimes it's beef, and like she just kind of has to roll with it.
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:46.400
So we're trying to hedging away from a hyper selectivity by just it's like, yeah, well, you get a spoonful of whatever you get, right?
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.519
The variability is a feature, it's just built right in.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:50.480
Yeah.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:51.680
Exactly.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.319
Christina, what was it like?
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.039
You're a mom, you're also a behavior analyst.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:04.079
What was it like to hear from Sophia that you know she had the revelation that she wanted to make this change?
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.240
I mean, did you hold back from intervening before she said that?
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:16.319
Um, so uh again, because this was COVID and there were some extenuating circumstances, I had tried to do a behavior contract.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:31.519
Um, and um that once I realized it wasn't going the way I wanted it to go and that Sophia was very fearful um while trying some of the new foods, I I squashed it pretty quickly and realized that it wasn't an issue.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:33.519
There was not a reinforcer identification.
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:42.160
It wasn't about like how good of a reward can I give you to get this thing going, because that would get the behavior change to happen for the wrong reasons.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:53.839
I I really wanted her to come to enjoy eating and and not have this history with it where it was, yeah, I guess I can tolerate it if you give me a potent enough reward.
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.759
That's not the right reason to eat a diversity of foods.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.839
But on the back of this, because the your your food repertoires were so limited, I was like, my child is gonna get rickets.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:11.359
It it is the, you know, we are in 2020 and my kid's gonna have rickets, and this is gonna be terrible.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.119
Um, and I was very worried about your health for for a little while.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:24.559
That's why we had all the fortified juices and vitamins and uh yeah, I realized pretty quickly that I shouldn't be the person solo running an intervention that I needed support.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:32.640
So we scrapped it, even though it was during COVID, and that's when we um linked up with this therapist who up, if it's all right, I'll say her name.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:33.680
Um she was incredible.
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.200
Her name's Lindsay.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:42.559
We we've reached out to her recently to share some successes, and she continues to be a positive, a positive influence in our lives.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:43.920
But yeah.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:44.480
Yeah.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:49.279
So no, again, that goes back to knowing what you could do doesn't mean you should do it.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:21:01.599
And in and chances are is even if you have the skills and it's your loved one, you need outside support just to, you know, give you the double check that what you're up to is actually gonna get things to happen the right way and for the right reasons.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.680
And other people don't have like the emotional connection to our kids.
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:15.680
Like sometimes you need that like unemotional person just seeing it from a clearly like clinical view, and uh you don't have all the history.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:16.640
Yep.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.880
As someone with a mother myself, she kind of triggers me sometimes.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.920
So sometimes it's good to have another person around.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.559
That works for both of us that way, right?
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:27.920
Yes, exactly.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:39.680
So this intervention was successful, and maybe you could talk a little bit more, it's you two, but did you have to get more of the family involved, or was this just mostly on you, Sophia?
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:42.799
I mean, it was mostly in it was just our house.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.759
Like Tell them who lives here.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.160
Oh it was it was just it was just her and my dad.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.799
Yeah, I think.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:50.000
So that makes things easy.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:51.519
Yeah, it did.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:22:15.759
Um and that was so I think we at least I personally tried to be very thoughtful about when we were going to start to address This issue in a systematic way because at one point Sophia spent a whole lot of time at her grandmother's, and I knew that I wasn't going to get buy-in and consistency at grandma's um because grandma is grandma and grandma grandma's a soft touch.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:25.279
Um, so um with that being our arrangement, I I thought it was best to wait so we could get some consistency to help make your behavior change easier.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:33.039
Christina, what do you wish more parents understood about picky eating versus something that might be more clinical?
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:42.079
Oh, um, I would say first and foremost, your kid is likely not doing it because they want to be particular.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:46.000
It is not any kind of form of quote unquote problem behavior.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.720
Your child has very good reason for responding the way they are.
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.079
You just might not know what their reasons are presently.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.200
In Sophia's case, food was scary.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.240
It wasn't just I'm being difficult to be difficult.
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:13.839
So if you go at this thing headlong and think, oh, I can I can set these really hard boundaries and just um try and get cooperation that way, you're not, you're probably not going to.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:25.920
You need more tools in your toolbox so that you can have a good relationship with your child and your child knows that yes, you want to foster this change, but first and foremost, your child is loved, your child is safe, your child is cared for.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.880
But yeah, so I would say all of those things.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:34.160
Um, and so, you know, get that extra support because it makes all the difference.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:43.519
At one point, I had read a ton of studies about what can be done for selective eating and figured out I didn't want to do what a lot of them said.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:50.240
And um then started to look at what were what were kinder more supportive approaches.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.400
And we found one and found a practitioner to support us with that.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.440
And I'm incredibly thankful.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:03.440
Yeah, we've talked a lot in this episode in this this podcast in previous episodes about power struggles.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:12.559
And I think that selective eating can quickly evolve into a power struggle between the parents and the child, where it's like, you know, you're not leaving the table till you finish your plate.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:21.279
And it's like if you have a child who's very terrified of a food, that is not going to help build that parent-child relationship that most parents want.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:22.319
Agreed.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.200
And I would also tell parents that it's reasonable for you to find this frustrating.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:41.839
And yes, you can love your child with all of your heart and still be incredibly frustrated by this because there's a lot of social punishment for being the parent of a child who does have these support needs or these um tendencies around food.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:50.240
So those things can both be true that yes, you want to change your child's eating habits, you love them dearly, and you can still be really frustrated.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:54.880
So all of that's all right to kind of hold together at the same time.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.960
But getting the support of a professional who's using evidence-based practices really, really makes all the difference.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:08.160
And I would suggest that they do that and that they try to see their child's experiences through their child's eyes.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.279
Yeah.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:16.240
Sophia, what would you say to a kid who is at your age but eats like you used to eat?
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:17.599
What advice might you give them?
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.640
That's such a good question.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.000
Do you want to tell them a little bit about your your essay for college?
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.119
Oh, oh yeah.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.079
Like I so that's what I'm getting at is this was a really big change for you, right?
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.480
Yeah.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:28.960
Yeah.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.720
And when you look back on that big change, how do you feel about it?
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.039
Then I'm really proud of myself.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:35.599
Okay.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.279
Such that you did what?
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.599
You're so proud of yourself that you wrote wrote about what in your college entrance essay.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:54.400
I wrote about this specific topic in my college essay and how like now I'm able to eat more freely and not from like this list.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.480
Like I can go out somewhere and try something new.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:00.799
So yeah.
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:01.279
Yeah.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:02.240
That's amazing.
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:09.119
I mean, Sophia, we just met you today, but I can tell you're a brave individual because number one, you're sharing your story.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:14.240
Number two, that illustrates that this is something that you've overcome.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.720
And in life, there are so many challenges that all of us face.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:25.200
And being able to navigate that and come out on the other side ahead, I mean, that's a win.
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:26.960
Absolutely.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.599
Yeah.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:38.880
And sometimes these things are hard for parents and children to address because you know it's just sometimes it's easier, even if it's not a good path to just keep going the way you're going, even if it means you're eating one, two, three foods a day.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:43.359
Um, but it's like to make that decision to make the change is is tough.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.079
And there's some, you know, it's a struggle in the beginning.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.200
But then once you get on the other side, now look at you.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:58.240
I mean, you're graduating high school soon, you're going up to college, and you're not gonna have to worry about what they're serving in the meal room or whatever, because you you're confident that you can handle it.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:26:58.720
Yeah.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:26:59.599
Yeah.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:00.799
Absolutely.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.519
Well, a final word from each of you.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:09.519
Anything uh to say before we bid our uh bid everyone goodbye.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.440
Uh thank you so much for having us on.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:17.359
I think the opportunity to share our story together has been really special.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:23.200
Um, I know that we did a lot of work together in collaboration with one another to get where we are today.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.759
And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to share that with everybody.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.799
Well, we appreciate that.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.799
Parents, before we go, I want to leave you with this.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:45.839
Your child's dealing with selective eating, or really, if there's any pattern that is affecting their daily lives, don't brush that off as a phase.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:54.319
Sometimes it could be a phase, but sometimes, as we just learned, the child could be really struggling with something.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:59.200
And as a parent, these are things that you need to take seriously.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.680
And what was so delightful, and again, thank you both.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:12.319
We heard today what's possible when a family comes together and addresses an issue and takes their child very seriously.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:19.119
So, with that, thank you all for joining us as we continue helping build better humans.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:21.279
See you next week.
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:07.679
Welcome back to the Starborn Parenting Podcast.
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:08.800
I'm Rick Abina.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.119
And I'm Madeline Jurgensen.
00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:18.079
And Madeline, we have our first guests of the podcast.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:18.800
I know.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:19.519
I'm excited.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:21.760
I've been looking forward to this for like weeks now.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:22.640
Yeah.
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.800
Welcome, Sophia and Christina.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.480
Thank you both for showing up.
00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:29.199
Yeah.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:30.399
Thanks for having us.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:46.000
We are talking about a daughter who recognized that she was eating food selectively, and she asked her mom, who happens to be a board-certified behavior analyst, for some help.
00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:55.679
And you know, this isn't a story about a parent forcing change, uh, but it's more about a child who is driving the change.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.359
And we are so excited to hear your stories.
00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:03.200
So with that, maybe you could uh tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.920
So, Sophia, uh, where are you now and what's going on with life?
00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.159
Um, right now, I'm in my last few weeks of senior year.
00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:14.159
I graduate in two weeks.
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:15.359
So excited.
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:17.519
Thank you.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:22.000
And then after that, I'm going to Kent State for biochemistry.
00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:23.200
Very cool.
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:25.680
And I can be prouder.
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:27.599
Absolutely.
00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:32.319
Um, I'm a, as you mentioned, Rick, I'm a board certified behavior analyst.
00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:37.439
I have been helping students with disabilities for over 20 years.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:49.920
Um, I've worked with people of all ages in uh quite a different array of contexts, pre-vocational, clinical, worked on academic interventions, done a little bit of everything that way.
00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:50.879
Uh yeah.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:02:04.480
And being both a parent and a behavior analyst makes you acutely aware of what you could do to change your loved one's behavior, but what you probably shouldn't do yourself or without support to change your loved one's behavior.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.599
So yeah, it can it can get tricky out there.
00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.479
Matt and I talk about this all the time.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:25.919
You can know the science really well, but when you have people that you love and it's life is coming at you, it's hard to, you know, you're not thinking like, oh, I read chapter four, and in this situation I should do blah.
00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:27.599
That's not how life works.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:28.479
That's right.
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.759
It is, it's an interesting dynamic.
00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:34.879
Well, Sophia, let's start with you.
00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:43.199
Tell us your story and uh what what were the the eating habits that you wanted to change back then?
00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:48.319
Just give us a sense of uh what that was like and how long ago was this?
00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:50.479
Fill us in on those details.
00:02:51.360 --> 00:03:00.159
So like ever since like my memory started happening, I guess, remember I had like self more self-awareness.
00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:08.560
I was only eating like maybe I wasn't even really eating the real food.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:16.960
I only ate hot pockets, this microwave breakfast sausage, fruit, and a cupcake.
00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:24.319
And that was like my meal until maybe like what was I like eight or something?
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.319
And then the rest of what I ate were really just like snacks.
00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:36.240
So really the only healthy food I got was like the fruit.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:46.560
And I think I remember my grandma giving me like a pediature a few times, and I took like the Flintstone vitamins, but that was really it.
00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:56.479
And then eventually I tried regular pizza, and then that was the only thing I ate for a while.
00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:15.599
Um and then whenever I was 13, I was actually in therapy and I mentioned my food issues and how I was really anxious to go to friends' houses because I'm about to go in high school and it's like I can't really go out and have fun.
00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:20.480
And I'm so I felt really trapped about it.
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:26.319
And my therapist suggested we do these like food exposures.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:42.959
So me and Christina made this list of food that like I would want to try, or is like pretty common in most places, so I can really go out with like friends more and eat with them because dinner was atrocious.
00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:45.519
So I had to like take a bite.
00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.800
I had to take three bites of a thing for what, wasn't it like three days?
00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:53.279
Three days, three bites of something.
00:04:54.399 --> 00:05:01.600
And if I liked it, then we just incorporated it more into like my diet and like our dinner time.
00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.560
So we would all have like a same dinner for once.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:21.920
I think you make a really good point, Sophia, the we we think about behaviors in the kids, and as parents, you look at your children and you know, it's like we might see behaviors, but it's like the kids themselves are also noticing behaviors, and you're mentioning that it's like causing rifts between you and your social connections that you have or you're trying to form.
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:30.800
And it's like the behaviors that can really be like either enablers or inhibitors to our ability to connect with the people that we want around us.
00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:32.160
Absolutely.
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:40.000
And you mentioned um before we were on air about a family you had served having these really challenging situations during COVID.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:41.600
This happened for us during COVID.
00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:55.519
And so we were wrangling this, okay, we have this very limited food repertoire, and also there's shortages of things, and we don't want to just cruise through Costco and wherever else for funsies because it was COVID.
00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:59.519
And so it was really challenging in that manner, too.
00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:09.519
And we had some conversations around uh addressing food stuff without the support of the therapist, and those didn't go as far.
00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:18.319
And so then it was really Sophia that re-initiated this with the assistance of her therapist, and we were able to go about it in a much more structured manner.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:32.399
Before the therapy like intervention, whenever I was presented something new, I would just stare at it and maybe sometimes cry because I was just so scared of eating it.
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:39.759
I was I was really scared of throwing up or like the fear of just not liking it and then being mad I don't like it.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:42.240
Was it for you?
00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:43.759
Was it the taste?
00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.040
Was it the texture?
00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:48.879
What was the things that you felt like you didn't like?
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.040
It was the taste for me.
00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:56.959
It was really never like texture, it's just like if it tastes bad, then it's like I'm gonna throw up.
00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.399
And then it's like I'm throwing up and that's disgusting.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:01.519
Yeah.
00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:02.879
It's understandable.
00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:04.639
I don't think anyone likes to throw up.
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:06.639
Um, yeah, we work with clients.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.399
It's that's one of the questions that we try to look at, or what we're trying to figure out with our clients.
00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.199
It's like, okay, is it something like the way that something feels?
00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:18.560
Like some people don't like broccoli because of the way like it kind of falls apart in their mouth, or is it like maybe too squishy?
00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:27.519
Or yeah, it's like there's a lot of different things that can or smells um that can cause people to like find something aversive or you know unpleasant.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:36.879
When you talked about the therapy, was this something that you were getting outside of, or Christina, was this something you were working on?
00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:39.360
This was something we worked on as a family.
00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:44.560
So we had both family sessions with the therapist and uh Sophia had individual sessions.
00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:51.360
And specifically, we chose this therapist because I was able to vet that she was using some evidence-based practices.
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.680
Um, and she had specific training in phobia and food selectivity.
00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:04.720
So when I found someone that was um savvy with exposure and response prevention, I was like, okay, you don't have to call it behavior analysis.
00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:09.120
I know there's something good in it, and we're gonna get everything we can from it.
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:11.199
So connecting with her, I really do think made it.
00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:17.600
I mean, of course, your effort made the biggest difference, but her her involvement really helped us turn a corner.
00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:24.639
There are some very technical words in the behavior science, and you just said a few of them.
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:40.159
And was this one of the words that I'll I'll share with is called systematic desensitization, where you're really afraid of something, but the way you get over that is you introduce it in small little pieces.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:45.519
So the classic example is let's say you're afraid of spiders, like you're definitely afraid of spiders.
00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:53.120
And what you do is maybe someone outside the door shows you a picture of a spider.
00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.480
It's like really removed, you can handle that.
00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.679
And then maybe they get closer to you and show you that picture.
00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:01.600
It's like, okay, here's this picture.
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.200
And then maybe they put a plastic spider down there.
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:12.320
In other words, there's these steps that you are systematically desensitizing the person to.
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.120
And this this has gone on for years.
00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.840
It has so much evidence to it.
00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:32.559
Is this what you experienced, Sophia, when you were like you were moving along these stages where I mean you mentioned three bytes, but you know, is that where it started, or was there a step before that and a step after that?
00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:35.840
I mean, like the three bites is what what it started.
00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.240
And like now I now I just try stuff.
00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:44.240
Can you talk a little bit about the planning and the fear ladder work that you did to choose your target foods?
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.080
So is it okay if I speak to it?
00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.919
I remember like I had to like rate my temperature.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:50.480
That's it.
00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:51.440
That's what I'm talking about.
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.000
So sometimes they call that a fear ladder, but we called it temperature.
00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:54.399
That's right.
00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:54.639
Yeah.
00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:57.840
Can you can you talk to oh wait, I know what you mean.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:05.279
So initially when we were picking target foods, you rated how scary they were, and we did the less scary foods first.
00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:06.000
Yeah.
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.039
Remember, we called the the scary rating your temperature.
00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:09.600
Yeah.
00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:11.279
So the what do we call it?
00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:12.639
Low temp if they weren't scary.
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:19.519
So a low temp food was an easy food in the fear hierarchy, and we worked easy to hard on targets.
00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:30.320
So that yes, there is that shaping bit that you're getting at, Rick, that you know, the spider behind the door versus the picture of the spider in front of you to the spider, fake spider on your shoulder.
00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:38.240
Um, the way that we incorporated that strategy was using this food rating scale, starting with the the least scary stuff first.
00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:38.639
Yeah.
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:52.320
And that's kind of gets at in here and also as we talk about these things of being like um like socially valid, or we want the person that's doing the intervention to actually be enjoying and not, you know, we want it to be a positive experience for them from the very beginning.
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.960
So it's like if your kid's afraid of water, you don't push them in a pool.
00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.080
You know, you start at one end and kind of like tiptoe in.
00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.200
Um, so it's good.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:06.000
Can you share a little bit more about like what were the foods kind of at like the bottom and like what made them what made them less scary, I guess, or low temps?
00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:07.840
Wish we still had this stupid list.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:12.080
Somewhere we probably data because of who we are as people.
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.080
She she recorded all of it.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:14.879
I did.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:17.600
We we had like full probe data.
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:24.879
Like, was it a huge list that you were working with, or was it kind of like like how hard was it, I guess, to make this list from the beginning?
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.279
It wasn't that hard at first.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:33.600
I think I remember like some of the things I put on there first was like chicken nuggets.
00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.200
So I didn't I didn't even eat those, and that's like such a kid thing.
00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.320
I think we put rice on there for the bottom.
00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:41.200
Pasta.
00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:43.600
Yeah, pasta was pretty early.
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:45.200
And I liked that really fast.
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:46.000
You did.
00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.360
I well also I think he made me try tofu once.
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:51.200
Because I just wanted you to have protein.
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:51.519
Yeah.
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:52.080
I didn't know.
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:53.759
Yeah, you had no protein at that point.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.960
And spaghetti sauce was on there early too.
00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:10.960
Because so we also, in selecting foods for target foods, which then were rated by Sophia, I looked at what she ate and thought, okay, what is similar but different enough that this is a meaningful addition to her food repertoire?
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.320
Tried to break down the food.
00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.559
So pizza was a an accepted, say, food for for a number of years at that point.
00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.960
So I'm thinking, all right, let's get bread in there, let's get sauce, let's get cheese in there.
00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:28.879
And then maybe we can recom re you know, recombine these tastes into some other deliciousness for you.
00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.679
So and it worked because pasta's one of your faves.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.000
Yeah, that well, that was my next question.
00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:38.159
Were there things on that list that you didn't like that now you really like?
00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.600
I mean, was there anything I didn't like at first?
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:43.600
Um, yeah.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:44.879
I'm sorry I keep asking.
00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:45.759
I genuinely don't like it.
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:54.639
No, no, that's a I remember I distinctly well that yeah, there definitely were things that you didn't like then that you like now because you've tried so many more things.
00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.799
Like I I would have never given you a soup dumpling back then and now Oh yeah.
00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.840
I mean the different types of pasta that you'll eat now.
00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:04.240
I don't know that you liked it all together initially.
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:09.200
Like you you would eat pasta, but not pasta with sauce for a little while.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:10.480
No, I didn't.
00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.440
Yeah, you did.
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:13.360
You initially you didn't like them together.
00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.519
The first time you tried them, you didn't like them together.
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:15.759
Yeah.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:23.679
Oh because I remember being at full disclosure, I remember being really frustrated as your parent was like, Oh my gosh, we've done all this work.
00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:30.320
Ah Um, I don't know that you liked uh like a chicken, like fried up chicken.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:35.840
Like the nuggets were okay, but like a like a cutlet, like a chicken cutlet, that that wasn't great.
00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:41.600
And now um chicken parmesan, you devour, which is great.
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.759
Um what else?
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:44.879
Tacos?
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:46.399
Did we try tacos?
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:47.200
No.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.799
You I think I think that was one of the times where we just like ate ate it.
00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:51.759
You just went for it.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:52.559
Yeah, okay.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:53.600
Yeah.
00:13:53.759 --> 00:14:12.480
I want to go back though, make it and make point at something you just said because I thought it was really really powerful, is that you had this idea of okay, taking a food that she liked, which was the Hot Pockets, and then breaking that apart and seeing what components we can pull from and maybe upgrade those to more healthier options for each of those different components.
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:21.600
And I think that's a good way to think about eating as well as other behaviors, but you know, breaking taking what's good, then breaking it apart, seeing what we can improve.
00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:28.080
So you took like okay, the bread, maybe move that to something else, maybe add the pasta, because it's all kind of like the Italian style.
00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.000
Um, and then you found something that worked.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.200
I think that's something that parents can take around as like a tip.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:44.000
Yeah, the other thing we did was we picked things not only because they were in terms of the nutritional value of the foods, they were a big improvement on the previously accepted foods.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:50.639
We considered that, but we also considered what foods get Sophia the most bang for her social buck.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:56.559
Um thinking, like to your point you said earlier, chicken nuggets are everywhere, they're totally a kid food.
00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:00.320
You know, there's very few places you can go and you can't find yourself chicken tender.
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:12.240
So thinking thinking that way, um, there were some foods that ended up on the list like chicken tenders and chicken nuggets that definitely weren't there because they were these like paragons of nutritional health.
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:21.200
Sophia, do you you you touched on this a little bit earlier, but what was the point that shifted for you?
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:30.799
You you were you were saying that, well, when you would go visit, you'd have some anxiety, but do you remember there was a point that you realized like I need some help?
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:36.320
I want to get rid of this uh selectivity and just eat more foods.
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:41.519
Yeah, it it was it was just going to friends' houses and I would just wouldn't eat anything.
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.879
And like I I felt sick because I was basically starving myself.
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:55.679
And then I started to get more anxious about how other people viewed me, because like I'm I'm becoming a teenager, like it's all that stuff.
00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:00.399
So then I'm like people are noticing I'm not eating normally.
00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.080
So then it's like now I have to fix it.
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:22.799
And then I wanted to go more places, like out of state, because when we went out of out of state for like or even on vacation, it was just a hassle because we had to find everything that was safe for me, and because it was so limited, what if they didn't have it?
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.360
We ate a lot of Denny's pancakes.
00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:27.200
They like basically knew me.
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:28.399
It was all fun they did.
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:29.440
They really totally knew you.
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:37.919
Yeah, I remember me and dad went to eat the the eating pork by grandma's almost, and I would ask for a specific waiter just because we were there like every day.
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:48.639
Which I think that might underscore something that we didn't say is that in addition to having these very limited foods, you had limited ways you would accept said foods.
00:16:48.879 --> 00:17:05.359
So it wasn't just breakfast sausage, it was this brand of breakfast sausage prepared in this manner, served in this way, and almost all of it was super processed because that processed feature means that it's going to be very consistent session to session that you eat it.
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:14.079
So um, something that we tried, but not in a systematic way, just as your parents, was to offer you a different version of a safe food.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:27.279
And that wasn't very effective because we didn't have all of the other supports around it, and we hadn't it wasn't something that we had done the work of including you in and giving you more, more control and choice in the matter.
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.119
And I think that made a huge difference.
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.720
I've seen with a lot of the families I worked with.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.640
I mentioned before we came on the show that they I had a family who their daughter only ate ego waffles, the miniature ones.
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.559
And one of the reasons why they said was exactly what you said was that because it's the same thing.
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.640
You get out of the box and they're exactly the same because they're highly processed.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:52.880
And so it removes that that diversity, like every little piece of diversity, it's the exact same piece.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.880
And that's like very, very comforting for a lot of the kids that we've worked with.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.839
Yeah, that's a really good point.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:00.480
Yeah.
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:06.160
Because I mean, even when we make homemade meals, there's even every time you make a recipe, it's sometimes like a little bit different.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.960
And if you make a stew, you might not have the exact same amount of pieces of everything in every single bowl.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:22.000
Um, so actually it went with my daughter, we've started to, we started her off with a lot of stews, also because we our main goal is to have like homemade meals, hot meals every day for her for lunch.
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.720
And uh stews are something we can make ahead of time so that they're prepped and ready to go.
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.920
So when I finish my work and we sit down for lunch, it's ready.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:39.359
Um, but it also kind of gets this thing of like she can't be super picky because sometimes there's more peas, sometimes there's less pea, sometimes chicken, sometimes it's beef, and like she just kind of has to roll with it.
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:46.400
So we're trying to hedging away from a hyper selectivity by just it's like, yeah, well, you get a spoonful of whatever you get, right?
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.519
The variability is a feature, it's just built right in.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:50.480
Yeah.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:51.680
Exactly.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.319
Christina, what was it like?
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.039
You're a mom, you're also a behavior analyst.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:04.079
What was it like to hear from Sophia that you know she had the revelation that she wanted to make this change?
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.240
I mean, did you hold back from intervening before she said that?
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:16.319
Um, so uh again, because this was COVID and there were some extenuating circumstances, I had tried to do a behavior contract.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:31.519
Um, and um that once I realized it wasn't going the way I wanted it to go and that Sophia was very fearful um while trying some of the new foods, I I squashed it pretty quickly and realized that it wasn't an issue.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:33.519
There was not a reinforcer identification.
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:42.160
It wasn't about like how good of a reward can I give you to get this thing going, because that would get the behavior change to happen for the wrong reasons.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:53.839
I I really wanted her to come to enjoy eating and and not have this history with it where it was, yeah, I guess I can tolerate it if you give me a potent enough reward.
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.759
That's not the right reason to eat a diversity of foods.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.839
But on the back of this, because the your your food repertoires were so limited, I was like, my child is gonna get rickets.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:11.359
It it is the, you know, we are in 2020 and my kid's gonna have rickets, and this is gonna be terrible.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:15.119
Um, and I was very worried about your health for for a little while.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:24.559
That's why we had all the fortified juices and vitamins and uh yeah, I realized pretty quickly that I shouldn't be the person solo running an intervention that I needed support.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:32.640
So we scrapped it, even though it was during COVID, and that's when we um linked up with this therapist who up, if it's all right, I'll say her name.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:33.680
Um she was incredible.
00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.200
Her name's Lindsay.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:42.559
We we've reached out to her recently to share some successes, and she continues to be a positive, a positive influence in our lives.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:43.920
But yeah.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:44.480
Yeah.
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:49.279
So no, again, that goes back to knowing what you could do doesn't mean you should do it.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:21:01.599
And in and chances are is even if you have the skills and it's your loved one, you need outside support just to, you know, give you the double check that what you're up to is actually gonna get things to happen the right way and for the right reasons.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.680
And other people don't have like the emotional connection to our kids.
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:15.680
Like sometimes you need that like unemotional person just seeing it from a clearly like clinical view, and uh you don't have all the history.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:16.640
Yep.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.880
As someone with a mother myself, she kind of triggers me sometimes.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.920
So sometimes it's good to have another person around.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:26.559
That works for both of us that way, right?
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:27.920
Yes, exactly.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:39.680
So this intervention was successful, and maybe you could talk a little bit more, it's you two, but did you have to get more of the family involved, or was this just mostly on you, Sophia?
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:42.799
I mean, it was mostly in it was just our house.
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.759
Like Tell them who lives here.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.160
Oh it was it was just it was just her and my dad.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:48.799
Yeah, I think.
00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:50.000
So that makes things easy.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:51.519
Yeah, it did.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:22:15.759
Um and that was so I think we at least I personally tried to be very thoughtful about when we were going to start to address This issue in a systematic way because at one point Sophia spent a whole lot of time at her grandmother's, and I knew that I wasn't going to get buy-in and consistency at grandma's um because grandma is grandma and grandma grandma's a soft touch.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:25.279
Um, so um with that being our arrangement, I I thought it was best to wait so we could get some consistency to help make your behavior change easier.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:33.039
Christina, what do you wish more parents understood about picky eating versus something that might be more clinical?
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:42.079
Oh, um, I would say first and foremost, your kid is likely not doing it because they want to be particular.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:46.000
It is not any kind of form of quote unquote problem behavior.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.720
Your child has very good reason for responding the way they are.
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.079
You just might not know what their reasons are presently.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.200
In Sophia's case, food was scary.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.240
It wasn't just I'm being difficult to be difficult.
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:13.839
So if you go at this thing headlong and think, oh, I can I can set these really hard boundaries and just um try and get cooperation that way, you're not, you're probably not going to.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:25.920
You need more tools in your toolbox so that you can have a good relationship with your child and your child knows that yes, you want to foster this change, but first and foremost, your child is loved, your child is safe, your child is cared for.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.880
But yeah, so I would say all of those things.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:34.160
Um, and so, you know, get that extra support because it makes all the difference.
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:43.519
At one point, I had read a ton of studies about what can be done for selective eating and figured out I didn't want to do what a lot of them said.
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:50.240
And um then started to look at what were what were kinder more supportive approaches.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.400
And we found one and found a practitioner to support us with that.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.440
And I'm incredibly thankful.
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:03.440
Yeah, we've talked a lot in this episode in this this podcast in previous episodes about power struggles.
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:12.559
And I think that selective eating can quickly evolve into a power struggle between the parents and the child, where it's like, you know, you're not leaving the table till you finish your plate.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:21.279
And it's like if you have a child who's very terrified of a food, that is not going to help build that parent-child relationship that most parents want.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:22.319
Agreed.
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.200
And I would also tell parents that it's reasonable for you to find this frustrating.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:41.839
And yes, you can love your child with all of your heart and still be incredibly frustrated by this because there's a lot of social punishment for being the parent of a child who does have these support needs or these um tendencies around food.
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:50.240
So those things can both be true that yes, you want to change your child's eating habits, you love them dearly, and you can still be really frustrated.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:54.880
So all of that's all right to kind of hold together at the same time.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.960
But getting the support of a professional who's using evidence-based practices really, really makes all the difference.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:08.160
And I would suggest that they do that and that they try to see their child's experiences through their child's eyes.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.279
Yeah.
00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:16.240
Sophia, what would you say to a kid who is at your age but eats like you used to eat?
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:17.599
What advice might you give them?
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.640
That's such a good question.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.000
Do you want to tell them a little bit about your your essay for college?
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.119
Oh, oh yeah.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.079
Like I so that's what I'm getting at is this was a really big change for you, right?
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.480
Yeah.
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:28.960
Yeah.
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.720
And when you look back on that big change, how do you feel about it?
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:35.039
Then I'm really proud of myself.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:35.599
Okay.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.279
Such that you did what?
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.599
You're so proud of yourself that you wrote wrote about what in your college entrance essay.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:54.400
I wrote about this specific topic in my college essay and how like now I'm able to eat more freely and not from like this list.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.480
Like I can go out somewhere and try something new.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:00.799
So yeah.
00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:01.279
Yeah.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:02.240
That's amazing.
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:09.119
I mean, Sophia, we just met you today, but I can tell you're a brave individual because number one, you're sharing your story.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:14.240
Number two, that illustrates that this is something that you've overcome.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.720
And in life, there are so many challenges that all of us face.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:25.200
And being able to navigate that and come out on the other side ahead, I mean, that's a win.
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:26.960
Absolutely.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.599
Yeah.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:38.880
And sometimes these things are hard for parents and children to address because you know it's just sometimes it's easier, even if it's not a good path to just keep going the way you're going, even if it means you're eating one, two, three foods a day.
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:43.359
Um, but it's like to make that decision to make the change is is tough.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.079
And there's some, you know, it's a struggle in the beginning.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.200
But then once you get on the other side, now look at you.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:58.240
I mean, you're graduating high school soon, you're going up to college, and you're not gonna have to worry about what they're serving in the meal room or whatever, because you you're confident that you can handle it.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:26:58.720
Yeah.
00:26:59.039 --> 00:26:59.599
Yeah.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:00.799
Absolutely.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.519
Well, a final word from each of you.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:09.519
Anything uh to say before we bid our uh bid everyone goodbye.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.440
Uh thank you so much for having us on.
00:27:13.599 --> 00:27:17.359
I think the opportunity to share our story together has been really special.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:23.200
Um, I know that we did a lot of work together in collaboration with one another to get where we are today.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:27.759
And yeah, thank you for the opportunity to share that with everybody.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.799
Well, we appreciate that.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.799
Parents, before we go, I want to leave you with this.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:45.839
Your child's dealing with selective eating, or really, if there's any pattern that is affecting their daily lives, don't brush that off as a phase.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:54.319
Sometimes it could be a phase, but sometimes, as we just learned, the child could be really struggling with something.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:59.200
And as a parent, these are things that you need to take seriously.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.680
And what was so delightful, and again, thank you both.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:12.319
We heard today what's possible when a family comes together and addresses an issue and takes their child very seriously.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:19.119
So, with that, thank you all for joining us as we continue helping build better humans.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:21.279
See you next week.
