Is Timeout Bad? A Behavior Scientist Explains

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Welcome to the Starborn Parenting Podcast.
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I'm Rick Cabina.
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And I'm Madeline Jurgensen.
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So, Rick, I was uh talking to my mom recently, and she reminded me of this story where, like, so my older brother and I, and I guess my younger brother, we were not uh the easiest kids.
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And we had a lot of energy.
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Um, and my mom had they grew up with a totally different type of parenting style, similar, I'm sure, your parents, Midwest.
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It's like they just it was a lot more corporal punishment.
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And so when my little brother, what was this?
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The wooden spoon.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yelling, it's a lot of fear, fear control.
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Um, there my older brother started pouring water outside the bathtub.
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The first thing my parents were like was like, okay, he gets a spanking, right?
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You pour water out of the tub, you get spanked.
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Sure.
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And um then my mom took a parenting class and it was her first sort of taste of behavioral science.
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And they taught her a really simple thing of trying to make the consequence for behaviors match the behavior itself.
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Seems super simple.
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Um, but most of us don't do it.
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And what we do instead is reach for that one tool for almost everything, and that most and the tool that most parents are reaching for these days is timeout.
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So that's kind of what we'll be talking about today.
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Yeah.
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I am glad we're talking about timeout.
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As a father, as a grandfather, as a behavior scientist, timeout has just been part of my life.
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And there's a lot to unpack.
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And now that I will watch social media influencers and parents, you get so much wacky information when it comes to timeout that I think having an episode just talking about what it is and explaining it very clearly would be a great solid for for everybody who is a parent.
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So let's let's do this.
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Let's have four four sections.
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We'll talk about what timeout is, how is it overused, and to your point, to that story you just shared, when do you use it and how can you make sure that the consequence fits the behavior?
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Super important.
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And then number four, uh, how would you actually use this?
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If you're gonna use it, what does the research say?
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How can this be done so that it's most uh effective and more importantly, that it's used most humanely.
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I have a book that I wrote, and in this book I talk about the story about this kid who was chirping in his class.
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But you've been a you've been a student in class, you've been around classes, you've been around kids.
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Kids do things for all sorts of reasons, and we don't know what those reasons are.
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And some of the behaviors are like, whoa, this is is this really weird?
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Is this kid doing this to be funny?
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When you're in the moment, you don't know.
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You can't know.
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You can create a theory and you could think you know what it is, but you don't know what it is.
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And this is what happened when I was observing this kid in a classroom.
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He's chirping, he's like flapping like this, and uh just just totally going full peacock mode.
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And you know, the teacher, as I'm observing this, is warning him like, hey, uh Freddy, that's not his name, don't be doing that.
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If you do this, this is gonna happen.
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If you keep doing this, this is gonna happen.
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And little Freddie keeps on doing it, and then eventually you know the threats get to the point where you're gonna have to leave class if you keep doing it.
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Guess what?
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He keeps doing it, and the result is he leaves class.
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And this is the story, and the kid was doing his behavior, ends up outside in the hallway, and you have two sides from this.
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You have the teacher's behavior, you have the kids' behavior, and you want to know was that the right decision?
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Because if it was the wrong decision, then you're not addressing it, and if it's the right decision, you are addressing it.
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And if it is the right decision, you know, there's still a lot to understand with how you should be using that timeout.
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But that was something that I will never forget, and that was a clear instance of a teacher saying, I have the strategy, at this point I'm going to use it.
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And this the teacher did indeed pull the trigger and use that strategy.
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Yeah, I have uh definitely seen some interesting behaviors in classrooms and timeout be used, and many of them, and sometimes we see an increase of that behavior because they want to get out of the classroom, and other times it's successful, but yeah, it's uh always interesting to see what kids choose to do in classrooms.
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I will say, with that story that I just shared, we've talked in the past about tolerance levels, and there were two things that were going on here.
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This teacher had a very high tolerance level.
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If you are gonna use any kind of behavior change procedure, you gotta have a low tolerance level and just apply it when it's like you can give a warning, fine, but if five or six things go on and you only react at this point, you just taught the kid that five or six things are gonna go on.
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That's just a little bonus that I wanted to put in there, and I want parents to always be thinking about what is your tolerance level.
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Then the second part to that is understanding how do you respond to that and is what you're doing working.
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You can understand behavior change procedures, but if they're not matched up to why that behavior is doing what it's doing, what the payoff is, you could be applying it incorrectly.
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When we talk about timeout in behavior science, there's a technical term, time out from positive reinforcement.
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We've been using the word rewards, that's that's our shorthand, but positive reinforcement rewards, we're we can use those interchangeable.
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And the the notion is that you're in this rich social environment, and you you take the person out of that, and no longer are they getting that positive reinforcement.
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And whatever the whatever way that looks like, they could be watching TV.
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It doesn't necessarily have to be a social situation.
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You get timeout from that from that positive reinforcement, whatever that looks like.
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And the idea is this is done very specific, and whatever that rewarding behavior is, you no longer have access to it.
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And that's where the the the or that's how the timeout receives its technical language.
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Time out from these rewards, whatever that situation is, you're no longer getting it.
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Problem with timeout is sometimes you're only focusing on this is a punishment procedure, and you're only focusing in on that punishment side of it.
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What about the other side, the time in?
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You want to be a good parent, you want to use these procedures so that they work.
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But if your child, if you don't think about the time in, why is it rewarding to be in something?
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Then you know that's kind of the other side.
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If you have a child who's getting lots of attention, if they're playing, if there's a lot of connection, uh, that's the time in, then the timeout could be more effective.
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But if you have a your day is by yourself and you're not receiving warmth, then you're just getting these corrections all day, that's a very different way of looking at this situation and the way of using timeout.
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So, timeout is a punishment procedure, and we need to understand that.
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And some people want to make this their go-to thing, and we need to talk about this, but just understanding clinically, behavior science-wise, timeout is a punishment procedure.
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It can't, when you get it to work, it can definitely drive down the behavior, but there's a lot we have to understand as if we're going to use timeout and how to use it effectively.
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Yeah, I think making sure that there's like a clear, as you said, difference between timeout and time in.
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And this came from like the it began, uh, the history of it from a scientist uh named Arthur Statz.
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And one of his, he used this for his own daughter in 1958.
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And then he so he put her in a crib and and he told her that he had to she had to stay there until she stopped crying.
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And then um that kind of led his student, um Montrose Wolf, to carry out a similar type of what they used to call as isolation studies with a child with autism that was it was a three-year-old with autism, and I think I was in an um institution, and the child was exhibiting um mild self-harm.
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She was, they were the person was also trying to teach the child how to um a small function functional communication skills and wearing glasses.
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And so they used this, uh, one of the things that the child was doing was throwing the glasses.
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And so they found that when they put the child in attention isolation, so in a room by themselves, the glasses throwing stopped.
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And then when they brought them back out and stuff, they was increasing.
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I mean, sorry, when they when they took away the like when the child threw the glasses, they would be put in this sort of timeout isolation.
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And then the the people that were running the the clinic, they didn't believe that this practice of timeout was actually being effective.
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And so they wanted to stop this practice of timeout, so they stopped it.
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And once they stopped it, the they showed they showed an increase in the glasses throwing.
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So then they put it back in place and the glasses throwing uh went down to zero.
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And so the the um this Montrose wolf named it timeout, and uh, which was actually, I think that's in reference to the pigeon studies, I believe, because they use time out in the pigeon studies, yeah.
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Um so um, yeah, so that's where that's how it came from.
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And uh it's now used as more of like a humane way instead of hitting your child or spanking your child, this is an alternative, at least how it was marketed back in the 60s, 70s, 80s of you don't need to spank your kid, just put them in the corner on a step, and then that's that'll do the same um same result.
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Yeah, I can tell you from my experience that working with lots of people in general, not just parents, but teachers, uh, folks who who understand time out, they just know it from either pop culture or maybe they're they've seen it.
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Like the Super Nanny.
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Do you remember that show?
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That lady would use it all the time.
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And unfortunately, as what got mixed into her show, I think was part of like, oh, this kid's being bad.
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Let's give this kid justice.
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And the way we give this kid justice is we put them in a timeout and make them, you know, there's a crime, make them pay for the crime.
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And that's not what timeout is at all.
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You know, the history that you shared is important because this is how it started, and behavior science is looking at this through the processes of what, why do, why do we do things?
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Why is the behavior paying off?
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And then there are these ways that we behave that can either make the behavior go up or make the behavior go down.
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And the Super Nanny, if you've ever watched her shows, you can pick these up on YouTube and other places.
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She's pretty successful in the shows that they have on TV.
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Obviously, there were probably some episodes where she wasn't successful, but having a kid not play out and work, I'm sure, doesn't make for good TV.
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And also, you know, you have these cuts.
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So you have uh, I remember this episode where I don't even remember what the kid's name was, but there were two brothers, and they were from they had these cute little British accents, and I think this was somewhere over there across the pond.
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And they were like, Billy, stop doing this.
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And it was just so cute with their accents, and he would just play a game and he would just chant, you know, throw it out.
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And then the super nanny uh comes in and she starts playing a game with them, and she's like, Billy, if you do that, you're gonna be on the naughty step.
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Billy does it, the kid goes on the naughty step, and then you know, the parents they'll show interviews with the mom and so on, and mom and dad, and all the kids, and through time, she works with him, and then they cut to the end of the episode, and Billy's great.
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He's playing the game, he's happy, the sisters are laughing, he's laughing, they're having fun, and it gives you the sense that wow, if we only know how to use this timeout the right way, our lives are gonna be really good and it's gonna solve everything.
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You know, this is PV, and this is done a lot of it's sanitized, a lot of the parts of doing this are cut out.
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Because when you're in timeout, I can tell you right now, that recipient isn't necessarily gonna go willing, and there can be all sorts of issues, and we just have to understand that yes, timeout works, but and because it does work, you can have some issues with that, which we could talk about uh in a little bit, but understanding that timeout is a procedure that can work, we have to understand when we apply it, how do we apply it, is it working?
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We monitor it, and at all times we have to look at this as okay, we're just driving behavior down, we're not teaching anything.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, because it it it's it has been overused in the past, and I know parents that overuse it in their own lives.
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Um, and so we have this risk of overuse and over abusing this specific procedure.
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Um and there were some interesting studies that were done.
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There was an Australian national sample of 474 parents of six to eight-year-olds, and they found that more than 70% have used timeout.
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Wow.
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And when researchers asked the 407 university students, 82% said that they got timeout as kids.
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Um, so both of the studies found about the same thing about how it was done.
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Um, that it was just kind of all over the place.
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Some people use it a lot, some people use it a little bit.
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Um, the reason for why it was done changed, but I just thought it was interesting.
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That's uh that's a very high number.
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And 70% in the children in the sample and 82% of the researchers themselves had experienced timeout.
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I mean, I've I've experienced timeout as a kid.
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I'm sure you have.
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It's it's very my parents didn't know about timeout.
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They knew about the other things you were referencing earlier.
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Yeah.
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I wish I knew about timeout.
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Yeah, I don't think my parents used it very often on us.
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I don't really have.
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I remember it a lot more when I was a very like under seven or so.
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I remember a lot of standing against the wall in our backyard.
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I vividly remember that.
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My my dad built like a, I think it was like an eight-foot wall because we had some crazy neighbors around us.
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We didn't live in the best neighborhood.
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And so it was like this huge wooden wall that we just have to stand with our head on it in shame.
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But yeah, definitely, definitely overused a bit, I feel, in our household for a certain time frame.
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But uh then my parents, you know, they they learned.
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They they went to some classes.
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But yeah, so what does over overuse look like in the home?
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This could be used for timeouts for everything.
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This is when like a kid spills their milk, they have a bad mood, they're not eating dinner, they're crying, um, you know, you're using it, you're they're threatening to use timeout, you know, 40 times a day, you're delivering it twice.
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Um, and this is when we start running into this, like, okay, this might be overused.
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Um, if we're not seeing a change in the kid's behavior, if you're starting to increase the amount of time that the kid has to sit just to have some sort of effect, then you're this is you know, you're running into this, okay, maybe we're overdoing it.
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Yeah, this is the this is the trap with punishment.
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It's very appealing because when you do it, if punishment is working, the behavior stops.
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And if you're the parent, you're just like, whoa, I did something and it worked.
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It it's reinforcing your behavior.
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And you have to understand that as a parent that when you use parent and it works, it reinforces your behavior.
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And what do we know about behavior that's rewarded?
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It's gonna happen more often in the future.
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And that means your toolbox becomes punishment.
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And we've talked about this in the past with punishment.
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You get what's called habituation.
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That means that the punishment that's being applied to you over time, you get used to it.
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And through time, as you go up more and more, the parent starts amping up the punishment because as you get used to what this punishment is, like maybe you're in timeout for a minute.
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Like, oh, okay, that is not gonna affect my behavior.
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So the parent might say, okay, now you're in timeout for two minutes.
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Now you're in timeout for ten minutes.
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Next thing you know, you're in timeout for an hour.
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That's not what timeout is meant to be, or how it's meant to be used, and it's no longer functioning as the timeout from reinforcement or timeout from rewards that we talked about.
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Very careful, we have to be very careful that we understand we're part of this interaction with our kids, and our behavior is being amped up when we use these procedures and we work.
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Let me say this right now we are not saying should you use timeout or should you not use timeout.
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These are choices that you make as a parent, but we can tell you if you use timeout, here's what's likely gonna happen, and ultimately you make the choice.
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Sometimes you I I've been in conversations with people, and if you even mention punishment, they will shame you.
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And we're not about shaming anybody for whatever choices they're making, but if you are gonna use timeout at home, there are things that you'll definitely want to avoid.
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Like let's say you take your child and you put them in a closet and you hold the door shut.
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That happens.
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Can you imagine taking a three-year-old, they're doing something, you put them in this dark closet and you hold the door on them.
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That's a little more than timeout.
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I mean, uh you're trying you could be traumatizing these kids.
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And I share this with you because when you look at the literature, people have done research in these isolated timeouts are being used at home, they're being used at school, and sometimes people use another word, and it's called seclusion.
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You can take a child, and I've seen this before also, where a child's just being locked in a room for a half an hour.
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And well, what why could that how could that possibly happen, you might ask yourself?
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If you are in a situation where a child's doing something that's very unsettling, well, if you put them in there for half an hour, that's rewarding your behavior because now if you lock the door and they're secluded, you don't have to deal with that behavior for a half hour, and you could go on and do other things.
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So you can see this from both sides, but that procedure of secluding the child is different from time out.
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It's going to have these other effects.
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And frankly, when we start talking about punishment, things can get very inhumane very quickly.
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And as I just said a few moments ago, you can start ramping these things up, and before you know it, you're engaging in these horrific punishments because your behavior has been reinforced and uh Rewarded and you've been brought up to this.
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So very important to understand as we move forward talking about time out.
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We're not talking about seclusion.
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We're not talking about locking kids away.
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We're not talking about putting in these harsh conditions that you as an adult wouldn't want to be in those conditions, and we wouldn't want to ever use those for our children.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:32.640
Yeah, I mean, I feel for the parents when their kids are doing things that are really undesirable because you get very you know, you can get very frustrated at your kids.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:54.720
And I can s understand how someone, if their kid is constantly doing something that is just, you know, just very obnoxious or harmful to their siblings or whatever else, you know, the temperature in the house starts starts rising and the timeout starts being used as an actual punishment of like parents are doing that to hurt the child.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:03.200
They're trying to create an adversive environment for that child as almost payback for what the child is quote unquote doing to them.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.359
And that can be a very dangerous position to be in.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:15.039
Um one of the things that I am very fortunate about is that we live in a two-parent household in our house.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:22.000
And my husband and I, like we're very cued into how our behavior are, how his emotions are.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:28.960
And if either one of us is getting starts getting frustrated with one of our kids when they're behaving ways, we tap out.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.000
The other parent comes in, lets that parent cool off.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:40.559
And then we're able to deliver a timeout procedure or any other type of procedure in a very neutral, non-emotional way.
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:50.640
And then when the child comes out of whatever that timeout or whatever else it is, we're very welcoming and loving and there's no bad, bad uh feelings towards the child.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.000
Um, but that's very helpful.
00:23:52.079 --> 00:24:05.440
If you ever find yourself in a situation where your kid's acting a certain way and you and you start reaching for the timeout procedure, um, tap in with a spouse or someone, another adult nearby, so they can help facilitate that.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:11.279
So you're not implementing these timeouts in anger or frustration because your kids can feel it.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.480
Even the way you say, you know, sit on the stairs or something.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:24.480
The the tone of voice you have, your kids hear that, they understand that, they will internalize that and it uh it will affect how that timeout is received.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.400
Such a good point.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.000
We are all humans.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:29.519
We all get frustrated.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:33.039
Kids know how to push our buttons because they're with us all the time.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:34.880
They watch us very closely.
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:35.920
And what do they do?
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:39.359
This it's not like they're necessarily doing this consciously.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.000
It's just part of what we do as humans.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:58.799
And uh understanding that you have limits, this is what also happens when let's say that you're in a state where you're very angry and your blood's boiling, and you say, Go to timeout, and you go to timeout, and it works.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:03.839
What happens is you experience all of the emotions.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.000
There's the come down, there's the relief that I did something that worked.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:16.799
So not only is your behavior being reinforced on the one side of like, yes, this works, there's these emotions that are happening with you.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:23.920
And that this like we have specific names for how we understand how behavior occurs.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:35.200
And there is a whole host of ways of understanding that our emotions can get tied in, and those can also be reinforced, so to speak.
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:44.240
And it's super important to understand that in your family do you have a way of tapping out?
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:49.279
I love that that analogy, and um it's perfect.
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.640
Yeah, because we don't want oh, sorry.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:52.960
Yes?
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:53.839
Yeah, go ahead.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:57.039
Oh, we because we don't want timeout to start harming kids.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:05.200
And I'm sure some of you um who might be in my generation or older have have heard of this sort of backlash that came to the timeout.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:12.880
This started in kind of 2014 with um, there was a man named Daniel Siegel and Tina Paneybrison.
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:23.119
I don't know how to exactly read her name, but yeah, they wrote a Times article about this, and it was about how timeout was hurting kids and they compared it to isolation or physical pain to the brain.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:29.759
Um, and so there was, and there's a lot of people that picked up on this, probably from personal experiences, maybe of remembering how timeout was.
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:36.079
Um, and they came out, these authors came out later and tried to clarify that they weren't talking about all timeout.
00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:42.720
It was just about these timeouts that were delivered in anger, harshness, isolation.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:50.640
And those were the timeouts they were talking about that were, they were saying more like physical pain on the brain because they've done research since then.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:27:07.440
Uh, there was a Knights and Collies article in 2020 that looked at Head Start families that reported that children age three had no difference in their emotional um behavioral outcomes, or if parents in relationships who used the timeout versus didn't use it.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:14.559
So basically the, you know, it it didn't really matter if for their emotional well-being of the child, if they use timeouts or not.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:20.079
Um, so don't be afraid basically to use timeouts or you're not going to damage your kid for a lifetime.
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:24.960
Um, it depends more on how you do the timeout versus whether or not you do it or not.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.759
How you do it and then how much you do it.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.480
And we've talked again about punishment.
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:37.920
There's one type where when we talk about uh punishing a behavior, so there's punishment and there's penalty.
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:40.000
This fits on the penalty side.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:47.200
Punishment means you are, this is from the clinical sense, not just the justice sense.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:52.160
Punishment means you are introducing something very unpleasant or unpleasant.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:57.920
Whether it's very or a little or a lot, it's something unpleasant and it drives down the behavior.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:03.759
Whereas penalty is something's being removed and the behavior is being driven down.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:37.680
So your studies that you just cited make perfect sense because we have so much evidence that shows when you're doing that other type of punishment, when you're introducing something unpleasant, like you smack the kid, or you uh scream at them, or there's something very unpleasant, there can be a lot of negative repercussions that happen based on that type of punishment, whereas on penalty, it's not going to be as much.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:43.599
Now, that doesn't mean we're we're saying, hey everyone, don't do this, just use all of this other type.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:48.720
With penalty and with punishment, neither of these things teach anything.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.599
But from a discipline standpoint, it does have an effect.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:09.359
And understanding that we have research out there that says, look, if you're gonna use this properly, you're not damaging your kid, is very important to pick up on, and you wouldn't want to ever use something that is causing harm to your child.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:21.039
Let's talk about if you're gonna use this timeout procedure, when should you use it?
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:27.200
Should you use it if uh your child says, Hey, I don't want to do my homework?
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:34.640
Should you use it if your child, if you say, hey, go clean up your room, and they say, I don't want to clean up my room, do you use it then?
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:44.640
If your child is uh supposed to come home from playing with their friends at five o'clock for dinner and they're late for five minutes, do you use it then?
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:49.440
There's all kinds of situations where you have to decide when is it appropriate.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.960
And I'd like to go back to what you and I talked about.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.799
We devoted a whole episode to this.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:00.079
And if you if you're new to the podcast, this could be an episode you you want to listen to.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.680
It's on these four ways of classifying behaviors.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:05.119
We can consider them buckets.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.359
That's the analogy that I use.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:14.319
And the first bucket or the first classification of behaviors would be things we call growth behaviors.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.440
These are simply anything we want more of.
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:20.400
What are things we want our children to do more of?
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:22.640
We want them to share with one another.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:24.400
We want them to be polite.
00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:34.799
We want them to be saying nice things to others, we want them to tell the truth, we want them doing all of these things that are going to help them.
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:39.599
Maybe we want them doing their chores at home that contributes to the family.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.799
Those are behaviors that we want to grow.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:49.680
And we would never use timeout on something we want to grow because what does timeout do?
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:52.000
Decreases behavior.
00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:52.640
Yeah.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:58.079
So why would you use something that decreases behavior on things we want to grow?
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:01.759
So, number one, we have growth behaviors, you wouldn't use it there.
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.960
The three types of behaviors, and this is a framework we're sharing with you.
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.359
This framework, you have to put your own values into it.
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.319
I myself am an imperfect human.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:24.000
I'm gonna say that right now, admit to it, and I have done things, I've made mistakes in my life, I will make mistakes going forward in the future.
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:35.279
We can all agree that this is part of who we are as humans, and I just try to continually get better at being a human and understanding when I'm raising kids.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:43.599
So I, my children now are all adults, and dad brag here, they're all doing good in the world.
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:49.920
And uh I like to think that part of what my wife and I did played a role in that.
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:57.359
And now I have grandkids, and when the grandkids come over and we're watching them, they're gonna behave like they're gonna behave.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.920
So these things that we're talking about, these are things that that I will do.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:15.039
And I would like to talk about these next three things, and I'm sharing this information because I want you all to understand that there's a framework for it, but you need to do some work.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.400
If you have a spouse, you need to talk with your spouse.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:30.000
And you were you were mentioning that, Madeline, that you all uh talk very frequently about these issues when you're disciplining your kids, and having that kind of communication is great.
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:33.599
Okay, let me get back to these uh three buckets.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:37.680
We have number one, what's called low impact habits.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:53.920
These would be behaviors that they're things that you don't want to necessarily happen, but they don't rise to the level where they would be damaging a relationship.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:03.599
These would be uh things that are not necessarily going to be overly harmful to yourself.
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:09.519
I I like to think about biting nails, and you I would like to hear if you agree that this would be one in there.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:21.680
If you bite your nails, that is a low impact habit, but it's something that if you're doing it in private, sure, it's probably not the best way to do things.
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:28.160
I could probably use a nail clipper or the people could use a nail clipper, but is this something that you would apply time out to?
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:38.160
Yeah, I I would not, I would not, but I mean, I know a mom that uses time out for picking noses.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.759
And for me, personally, that's a low-impact behavior.
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:43.599
My daughter puts her fingers in her nose.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:46.559
We just tell her, take your fingers out of your nose and we move on.
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:56.640
But for this mom, she was a mom that she they used time out and then they would wash the uh the daughter's hands with hand sanitizer.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.359
So they really wanted to put that behavior on on an extinction, as we say.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:02.960
She wanted to end.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:05.920
So yeah, personal choice.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.440
This is exactly what I was talking about.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:15.599
You and I, I certainly wouldn't consider uh picking the nose.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.280
That's a low-impact habit for me.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.800
And uh there's other behaviors that would go in here.
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:31.840
These would be things that could be either cleaned up over time, or you as a parent could do parenting, you could do coaching.
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:40.639
And if what would happen if kids are in a classroom and you start picking your nose and everyone's like nose picker, nose picker, nose picker.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:47.840
I've heard other kids saying the natural consequences of kids teasing you are gonna drive that behavior down.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.039
These are what we mean by low impact habits.
00:34:51.679 --> 00:35:04.480
And the cost is mostly to the child, but it's not going to be something that I would consider we need to apply timeout to.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:11.840
And in fact, punishment in general, a lot of these low impact habits can be fixed in other ways.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:18.400
Let's say that you take a shower in the morning or you take a bath and you throw your bath towel on the floor.
00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:20.639
You don't clean it up, you don't put it in the hamper.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:24.559
The hamper's right there, but you just leave it on the floor.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.880
Sure, that's confusing.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.840
Why can't someone just take the step and put it in the hamper?
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.079
We're not here to explain that.
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.840
We're just here to illustrate that this is a low-impact behavior.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.519
How could you handle that?
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:51.039
Can you use a reward and say, look, if you can put that towel in the hamper five days in a row, then you know here's a token or you win this prize or whatever.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:56.159
That's so much better than saying, no, we're gonna use punishment to drive down that behavior.
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.000
And I don't even know what that would look like.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:04.239
If someone just got out of uh the bathroom, you would have to be there to do it.
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:12.880
So low-impact habits are behaviors that we can classify.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.960
You as a parent would have to classify it, but these would not be times we would use timeout.
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:23.199
Two is what's called moderate social disruptors.
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:28.320
And these behaviors three I'm sorry, you're right.
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:29.360
Technically three.
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:37.920
I was saying two, and I'm looking at these three as buckets that would behavior we want to go down, but you're right, it is three of four.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:40.239
Thank you for that correction.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:47.119
The moderate social disruptor, these are things that can damage relationships.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:58.480
These are behaviors that if you are a friend, if you are a parent, these are gonna start wearing down everyone's goodwill.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:08.800
And moderate social disruptors could be things like you tell somebody to do something and they tell you no.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:12.719
And maybe they'll just tell you no, maybe they add the F-word in there.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:25.519
Maybe uh they they have some other colorful language, maybe you are teasing someone in a way that's not funny and that's very hurtful.
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.199
Maybe you maybe you're stealing from someone.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:36.400
These behaviors, these moderate social disruptors are gonna have serious consequences to relationships.
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:38.400
They're gonna have serious consequences.
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:53.519
And when I say consequences, I don't mean that in necessarily I'm talking about that in the the broader sense of like these are impacts to you, uh, to how you are as a person, your friendships that you develop, how you might learn.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.880
Uh all of these things can be very negative.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:00.320
These could be candidates for timeout.
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:15.360
Again, this is just a bucket of behavior, and we're saying they could be candidates because the other thing that we'll talk about in the next segment is that when you do apply timeout, you need to understand why the person is doing the behavior.
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:25.519
So these are potential candidates, but just because someone says F you to you doesn't mean like, oh, every time someone says F U, that's a timeout.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:31.679
No, because they could be saying that for the very reason for you to get them to put them into timeout.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:34.639
And if that's the case, now you're rewarding the behavior.
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:36.960
So I do want to make that distinction.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:53.360
Do you can you think of in your own personal uh way of as you raise your kids, what could be an example or examples of things that would for you that you would consider something like, okay, this is a moderate social disruptor.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:39:04.400
It's something I would not want my kids to do, and this would be a a behavior that would be worthy of receiving a behavioral consequence.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:27.119
Well, in our house, we started using timeout for my older daughter when she uh she likes to play with her younger sister, but she sometimes gets a little aggressive, not in a mean way, but she likes to try to pick her up and move her, and she's not strong enough to pick up the baby and she will drop her.
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:34.079
Um, and so it's that's our that is our line in the sand is you are not allowed to carry your sister.
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:38.800
And if she continues to carry her sister, then you have to be removed from the playtime.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:42.639
And she really likes to spend time with her sister and spend time with her dad.
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.239
So this is um, she does not like to be removed from the situation.
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:53.840
But if she continues to pick up her sister or try to, you know, move her in any way, then it's yeah, she has to be removed for a little bit.
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.039
Great example that has a very important safety aspect to it.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:06.639
Uh so you as a parent, we're talking about candidate behaviors that you might use for timeout.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:35.599
And moderate social disruptors would be the spot that you would say, okay, if based on what you and your spouse come up with, if you have this conversation, if you happen to have an app that classifies these things, then you can track these and it it just helps you, it puts you on the the path to being able to understand these behaviors and when you might use them, when you might not use them.
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:40.559
Okay, last one, these are called high risk or crisis behaviors.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:49.840
And this is let's say your child is crisis behavior, meltdown tantrums.
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:58.800
You have someone who's on the ground, they're crying, they're out of control, or this can look different for each child.
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.360
They don't necessarily have to have that classic tantrum where they're pounding their fists on the ground.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:12.320
They could be inconsolable and just crying and just really upset, and it could look very different in different ways.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:19.119
And when someone is in crisis, applying punishment at the time is not what you should be doing.
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:23.199
Crisis behaviors would be safety first.
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:26.559
You have a plan for what am I going to do here?
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:30.239
How do I get that child back into control?
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.559
And control would mean they're listening to you, they're looking at you.
00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:42.079
I see I've seen so many crises in my life, and I've seen parents that try to bargain with the child.
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:52.559
Like if you, if you, if you don't the threaten or the bargain, if you stop doing this, we're gonna go and get some ice cream, or if you keep doing this, you're gonna be grounded for a week.
00:41:52.880 --> 00:42:03.599
It's it's not when you're in crisis mode, don't do those behaviors and just try to keep the child safe, try to keep the people around the child safe.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:08.079
Don't think about applying a behavioral procedure at that point.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:23.679
And crisis behaviors can look different depending on, again, we're giving you these frameworks that could look different for your child, but understand what a crisis behavior is, and then know that if your child is in a crisis, that's not the time for time out.
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:31.280
The other behaviors that fit in here are called high risk, and these are behaviors that are very unsettling.
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:38.559
Let's say that you had a child that was doing something really mean to an animal.
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:42.480
That's a high-risk behavior that you need to understand.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.679
Oh, whoa, this is something that's happening right now.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:47.280
What is the procedure?
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:52.400
These are these very uh very problematic behaviors.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:43:00.559
Uh, high-risk behavior, there are these clinical terms for uh what's the clinical term for when you're you're throwing up?
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:14.639
I forget what that clinical term is, but it's where it's a very dangerous behavior where if you keep doing that, it's a clinical issue where you can have a serious issue.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:16.719
Do you have these high-risk behaviors?
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:18.159
And there's all sorts of them.
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:34.320
They don't necessarily have to rise to these levels, but understanding the framework and understanding that look, when that behavior happens, you need to understand why that behavior is happening and what is the appropriate action at that point in time.
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.039
So those are the four buckets.
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:38.960
One you would never do it.
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:43.840
These other two you you wouldn't do it, the one you would do it.
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:53.360
And these are this is a framework that you as a parent can say, all right, these are behaviors that could be candidates for when we use timeout.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:54.559
Mm-hmm.
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:59.039
All right, so now let's talk about when we actually are going to use it.
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:10.000
So I know your book talks about five ways of using the when we actually use timeout, what we want to do.
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:16.960
Um so do you want to talk about before the first timeout what we have to keep in mind?
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:18.400
Yeah.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:19.119
Okay.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:26.480
Before the timeout, you have to say, this gets back to what we were talking about earlier with time in.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:32.320
Is there a situation when you look at what's going on with the child?
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:38.559
Uh can they do what you want them to do?
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.960
If you can, if if if that could be the starting point right there.
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:52.639
Let's say that you're using timeout for a behavior that you want to go down, uh, let's just sit, but let's pretend it's attention.
00:44:52.960 --> 00:45:00.000
And can your child gain access from attention from you, which is gold?
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:27.519
Your attention means so much to your children, but if you're not like right out of the gate, if your child's gonna end up doing something to get your attention and they're doing these behaviors, that is just so annoying, like maybe they're picking on uh their their their sibling, or maybe they're making some obnoxious noise, or maybe they're doing something that you really don't like that they're doing, but this is how the child has learned to get your attention.
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:43.760
So that is a gatekeeping question and something that you would want to ask, okay, is there a way for my child to be able to access the behavior that we think this is why this behavior is happening?
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:46.239
That's number one.
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:49.360
Yeah, I think that's uh always good to keep in mind.
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.239
It's like, okay, is that the behavior?
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:58.480
Um like, is there a way for the child to kind of get out of having to do this timeout?
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:13.280
Um, and when I we talked about in my how we started this podcast, I was talking about my mom with my brother in the bathtub, and she would tell him, you know, if you keep the water in the tub, we can stay in the bath.
00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:14.239
Very simple.
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:17.440
But then if the water gets out of the tub, now we have to get out of the tub.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:22.320
You know, it's like um you try to give them a way to, you know, like this is not the only way.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:25.280
You can just keep the water in the tub and you can stay in the tub.
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:26.480
Very simple.
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:35.760
Um, but yeah, so from the from your book, there's also some other things you want to um keep in mind that one of the first things you want to do is you want to act quickly.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.920
So the child should connect with the consequence to their behavior.
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:47.199
And so you want to make sure, like we've talked in this podcast many times before, you want the consequence to occur immediately after that behavior.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:52.639
So the child can make that association that what they just did caused the timeout.
00:46:52.880 --> 00:47:02.960
If you make it too far separated, they're not going to have that association, or it'll be harder for them and they don't won't really drive that same force, I guess.
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:16.239
Or yeah, it's like if you, for instance, if your kid does something at school and you hear about it and they come home and then you put them in timeout or something because of something they did at school that's just that's too far apart.
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:17.679
You know, that happened at 9 a.m.
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:18.960
in the morning, it's 4 p.m.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:20.159
in the afternoon.
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:21.599
That just doesn't work.
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:27.920
Um, but if you're home and you know, my my daughter tries to pick up her sister and I, you know, like, nope, separate them.
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:31.119
And now you're on the you know, timeout area.
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:36.800
She understands very clearly that that behavior causes that consequence.
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:40.079
Um, and she even once put herself in timeout.
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:46.239
She did it, she did it like more than once, and then she looked over at me and she was like, get the timer.
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:51.519
She put herself in timeout because she was like, she was like, she knew she overstepped the boundary.
00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:52.960
It's a clear rule in her house.
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:56.639
She understands it, she's young, but it's like we hold that line.
00:47:56.719 --> 00:47:57.519
And that's the other thing.
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:13.599
It's like, you really want to make sure, as Rick said early in this podcast, it's like you want to act quick, you want to make that very clear that that behavior causes this consequence so that there's no miscommunications on either side from the child or the adult.
00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:14.320
Yeah.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:20.719
Let me add uh to that, when you're starting this out, you should just pick a couple behaviors.
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:24.320
You shouldn't say, I'm gonna use timeout with 10 behaviors.
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:29.679
And that example that you just gave, let's just say it's this behavior.
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.360
I'm going to act quickly with this behavior.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:47.119
You know that this behavior is one that can be used with timeout, so you pick that behavior, and the reason why you act quickly is in behavior science, everything is connected to each other.
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:53.119
And the farther removed you are, the less, or I would say, no power is going to happen.
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:59.840
And you're actually just doing other things that uh aren't going to be helpful for you.
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.199
And the act quickly is literally what we mean is like a second.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:12.960
And if you go 10 seconds out, if you go a minute out, you just lose that power.
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:15.440
So acting quickly is important.
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:23.360
And just as if you're gonna use timeout, if this is something you're doing, understand what it is.
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:33.199
You already gave one of the things saying explaining it beforehand, picking one behavior, and one of the first steps that we want to say is acting quickly.
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:38.159
Let me pick up on another one, which is keeping it short.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:55.119
And we have research that shows when you do timeout, having the child in timeout for 10 minutes, one minute versus 10 minutes, 10 minutes isn't necessarily going to be a more powerful timeout than one minute.
00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:56.559
Keep it short.
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:02.559
The research shows that if you have a fixed time, that can be very meaningful for your children.
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:07.760
Don't put them in the closet and lot and say, okay, I'm gonna hold the door for 10 minutes.
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.320
That is not what we're saying here.
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:11.599
Keep it short.
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:15.280
Have a place designated for where your child would go.
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:17.840
So you're gonna act quickly, you're gonna keep it short.
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:23.920
And let's say you have a I'm looking over here next to me, and pretending that there's a chair there.
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:30.159
The child sits in the chair, or maybe the child, as you said, you referenced earlier, you're standing somewhere.
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:33.920
You don't have to be standing with your nose against the wall.
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:36.239
You don't have to be humiliating the person.
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:37.920
That's not what this is about.
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:41.920
This is about timeout from this rewarding place.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:48.000
You determine when you're gonna use it, you act quickly, and the second thing is you keep it short.
00:50:48.159 --> 00:51:01.119
So about a minute or so, uh maybe a little bit longer, depending on uh what what's happening, but but don't there's an upper limit to this where it's not timeout anymore.
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.880
And that kind of goes in the next one of make it matter.
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:09.280
So this is it only works if your child is really leaving something that they like.
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:12.400
So this is not a time for lecturing or guilt trips.
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:14.000
Um, this is something very simple.
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:19.840
You just say something like you hit timeout, um, and they're leaving a situation that they want to get back to.
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:24.559
So that leaving the situation is a negative outcome for them.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:26.559
I love that.
00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:28.000
Can I add one thing to that?
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:29.519
Don't threaten timeout.
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:30.880
Oh yeah.
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:33.119
Just do it.
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:34.159
Act quickly.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:38.960
You don't need to threaten a timeout and keeping it simple.
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:51.679
And this goes into the next point, which is when you give the timeout, just as you demonstrated with your voice, very calm, very flat, very matter-of-fact.
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:53.599
You say it, you do it.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:56.960
It's not, this isn't the time to deliver a lecture.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:03.519
This isn't the time to say why you've been aggrieved and how this child did something that really upset you.
00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:07.280
That's not the behavior change we're going for when you're using this.
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:08.880
Yes, you might feel that way.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:11.519
Yes, you might want to have this conversation later.
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:13.599
Now's not the time to do that.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:16.639
Yeah.
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:18.159
And uh that's it.
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.440
This is another time when you can um tag your spouse in.
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:38.880
I might mention this earlier, but if you're not able to deliver the timeout protocol in a calm, flat, and neutral tone, have your spouse come in, have another adult come in, um, someone who can deliver that appropriately if you're not able to in the moment.
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:39.519
And it's okay.
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.960
It's good to know your limits.
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:51.199
Um, it's better for your child to get that timeout um delivery like in the correct way than you have to, you know, struggle through it or have some frustration in your tone.
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:52.000
All right.
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:54.719
And the last one is pair it with what comes next.
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:58.400
So timeout can pause a behavior, it cannot replace one.
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:04.239
So um the if timeout is the whole plan, you're building a house with no floor.
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:06.880
Right after teach them an alternative.
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.079
We're all about alternative behaviors here in behavior analysis.
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.679
So if you, you know, say, if you want to turn, say, can I have a turn when you're done?
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:18.320
And then reward the child for the first time they're doing that.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:23.199
Don't just take things away and put them in timeout because kids need to know what they're supposed to do.
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:26.719
Telling them what they're not supposed to do is not enough.
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:32.559
You have to give them replacement behaviors because at the end of the day, kids want to be good.
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:36.480
They want your attention, they want your praise, they want you to like them.
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:46.800
Um, so giving them those replacement behaviors gives them the opportunity to get that positive attention, get that, you know, friendly voice, the great job.
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:48.079
Oh, I really like that.
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:51.840
It gets their, you know, positive attention from their friends.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:58.559
Um, so that's really our role as parents to not only teach kids what not to do, but we teach them what they should be doing.
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:03.119
I want to almost end the podcast on what you just said.
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:04.800
It's so important.
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:06.960
We've been talking about punishment.
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:11.039
And let me reiterate: punishment doesn't teach anything.
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:19.199
It can push a behavior down, but in that instance you just gave, this is teaching somebody something.
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:25.519
And rewarding a behavior is the way to make this happen over time.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:29.599
Now, as a parent, just keep remembering this fact.
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:36.960
Your kids are trying to understand the world, they're trying to first understand how they function within this family unit.
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:42.159
And this is where they learn so many important skills, especially when they're very young.
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:51.280
And as they go out and start interacting with other kids, then they're interacting with kids who are having these same experiences in their own families.
00:54:51.599 --> 00:55:15.440
And if we can focus on the teaching, on the rewarding, and if we if you have to use a timeout, then you are pairing it with something and you're also teaching, that's the way you grow behavior, and that's the way you don't have to be using these timeouts until you can't use your timeouts anymore.
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:26.159
You know, you and I were talking earlier before the show, preparing, and we had a funny conversation about would you use timeouts with teenagers?
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:33.920
And I don't know parents that are going to use timeouts with a teenager because that dynamic is very different.
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:56.400
And there is going to be a time when you are going to use timeout, and it's whether you're working with very young kids or they're a little bit older, you want to teach them things and you want to reward the behavior, and that's the part that we want to focus on, not how do we punish better, how do we drive behaviors down better.
00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:08.159
Yeah, because I I mean you just in in our podcasts and in the books and what what we're building for education for parents, it's like we want to have better relationships with parents and their kids.
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:15.920
And timeout is effective, but I wouldn't say it really, really adds to your relationship with your child.
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:20.480
It's it it stops behaviors that really need to be stopped, but that's pretty much it.
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:27.920
Um, but there's a lot of other things that we'll share here in the podcast that we're trying to build those positive relationships with your kids.
00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:35.119
Um, so timeout should only ever be used in conjunction with other positive things that you do with your kids.
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:41.920
If the only interaction your child has with you is timeout, that is a way to build a really lousy relationship with your kid.
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:42.639
Yeah.
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:45.360
If you are using timeout, yeah.
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:48.880
Normally we give some quick homework assignments.
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:53.360
I don't want to give you a homework assignment and say, hey, go use timeout and see how it works.
00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:56.400
That's not a good homework assignment.
00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:05.599
If you are using timeout, what I would ask you to do is to reflect, maybe collect some data on that.
00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:09.760
And when do you do use timeout, what's that look like?
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.400
How many times are you using in a day?
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:13.760
Is it working?
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:18.639
Is it uh are you are you teaching someone a behavior?
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:27.199
So these are things that I would suggest that after listening to this episode, if you are using timeout, that's one thing.
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:35.199
But if you're not using it, I'm not suggesting based off of this conversation as we had around it, you now have the tools.
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:42.400
Like we've talked about this, but if you ever plan on using timeout, educate yourself.
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:54.000
Understand the conditions around which when you would use it, understand what that procedure looks like, use it the way it has been done.
00:57:54.079 --> 00:58:02.239
Don't don't listen to some social media influencer that just is like, hey, here's my top 10 list for how you use timeout and how it works best.
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:08.079
There are people that are experts at this, that have spent their careers doing this.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:10.400
There's this whole science behind this.
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:15.039
Look at that, and there are many sources that you can go to.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.119
We can put some up in our show notes.
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:19.039
Of course, I've written a book about this.
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:21.280
Madeline, you've talked about this before.
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:28.800
I don't know if you've ever published on this before, but this is some, this is the way that I would move forward with timeout.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:35.840
Yeah, and and we've given you a lot of good information about what timeout should look like and what it shouldn't look like.
00:58:36.000 --> 00:59:01.840
So if you have a kid that's in school or maybe um, you know, is in an intake facility or wherever your child might be spending their day, and you hear that they're using timeout, you now have the tools to be able to ask good questions to the child's teacher or caregivers in those settings to hear more about how that timeout is being implemented so you can evaluate for yourself it is if it's being done the correct way or the incorrect way.
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:03.280
Yeah.
00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:06.559
Let's end the pod there.
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:13.440
We every week are talking to you and we're trying to help build better humans.
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:16.239
And thank you for joining us on that journey.
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:18.480
Thank you so much.
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:20.000
We'll see you next week.