speaker-0: Hello, I'm Harvey Morton and this is my Stage and Screen podcast. Today's guest is Scott Bryan, someone who's shaped so much of my own love for TV through his brilliant social media commentary and his BBC5 live show Must Watch. So it was a real honour to meet him. And now Scott's here to talk all about his new book, it's called Out Now, so let's dive into my chat. with wonderful Scott Brian. So thank you so much for being on the show, Scott, and huge congratulations on your new book.
speaker-1: Thank you Harvey. Thanks for having me.
speaker-0: I have to say your work's been such a huge inspiration to me as well growing up obsessed with radio and T V myself. ⁓ your Twitter feed was where I first discovered you and it's just shaped so much of my knowledge and interest over the years. What was it like for you turning all of those personal reflections and all of your cultural observations into a full
speaker-1: Thank you.
speaker-0: Memoir and died to Queer T B.
speaker-1: think it was ⁓ quite ⁓ liberating in a way. think a lot about this book ⁓ was trying to work out how queer TV really resonated with me. Because I've always loved TV. It's pretty evident from my social media that I do. And I sort of felt like ⁓ I really wanted to tap into how it shapes all of us. Because I knew it had shaped me. ⁓ particularly us growing up in, ⁓ many of us have grown up at a time when there were very few moments of queerness on TV. I sort of felt that like those moments I still really remember and I really reflect on it and I kind of wanted to look at like what it was like to grow up in that generation where those moments were very few and far between. And that's what about now taps into it, it's kind of what it was like to be in a generation where there were far fewer moments of ⁓ LGBTQ plus representation on television and to highlight the importance of TV. But then to answer your question, I think like what then happened was that it became way more personal than I ever anticipated it to be. ⁓ Because I was really trying to tap into like, why have I relied on television so much ⁓ and you know why has it become this sort of safe territory. ⁓ So the book ends up becoming a fun little deep dive into newer diversions that I didn't expect but also I was really happy to explore ⁓ and also just sort of trying to find your way as an adult and how TV can can feel like a really sort of wonderful place, but it can be quite formulaic whilst life itself is a little bit more complicated, isn't it?
speaker-0: Absolutely. I mean the title of the book out now captures so much. It's brilliant. I guess ⁓ for you, you that was like the day that you came out in your French class the same week as Coronation Street had its first day kiss because she just sort of said it there and then. Can you tell us a bit about that week and the timing of it all?
speaker-1: Yeah, so the book sort of starts with me literally coming out in French class. I came out in French first. It's quite bougie. There's no other way about it. quite bougie. It was so surreal because I grew up in Dorset where unfortunately there was a lot of homophobia. But I was blissfully unaware of it beforehand. And I felt that LGBTQ plus TV moments on TV were so rare that I didn't know that coming out would be so much of a big thing. I think I was like blissfully unaware in a sort of weird way. So the night before was when Todd kissed Nick on Coronation Street, the Soaps First Gay Kiss. And that was watched by about 40 million people. I'd seen a bit of it. I kind of tuned in, didn't really see what the fuss was about the next day. ⁓ It must have been kind of in my mind of like, you know, what will people think about, you know, what would people think if I came out? So I thought to come out in French, but then do it as a bit of a joke and then retract it. So it was like, you know, just sweet homosexual or just sweet gay. And they were like, v'est mort? And I was like, oui. And it was very much a back and forth. I then thought... You know what, Soddie, I am going to tell them. But it was like not to frighten us or anything. It was like to a random person in French class. And then the next day the whole school knew and the trajectory of my teenage youth kind of changed because forever I'd been, I think, the only out person at school. unfortunately homophobia ticked up. But I felt like what was really interesting looking back at that time is not only the... how that one flippant moment changed my life. It was also looking at the news media at the time, ⁓ reflecting on Todd kissing Nick, because a lot of it was so, so, so negative. Not treating it as a positive moment at all. I think the viewers, the majority of the viewers, I think saw it as a really good thing. And of course the press don't reflect. ⁓ what the general public think really, I think there was a bit of a distance. ⁓ but, but seeing headlines saying like night of shame the next day, ⁓ or sort of a lot of national media debate trying to provoke it as a quote unquote debate about, know, whether it should be shown to kids, all of that stuff. I think it lingered, ⁓ for me, and I think it lingered for a lot of other people. And it's made me, I think as a journalist, you know, which is my general job now. I feel quite conflicted because I love being a journalist, I love being a writer. I feel very proud to be an openly gay writer. But then also like the press has done, I mean even now, certainly some really bad things. And it's that kind of challenge on your own conscience, I think. And how the media environment then was... very different to how it is now. Now generally, course, trans lives are awfully negatively affected on a daily basis by the actions of the press. But I mean in a general sense, you have queer characters in prime time and the press don't really go after them as much as they used to now. It's a very changed media environment.
speaker-0: No, that was such a brave thing for you to do though. And it must have been inspired by so many of those T V shows that you talk about in the book and just feeling comfortable enough. And like you said, you were unaware, but you you did that brave thing anyway. And even though it sort of had its consequences for you, you just stood by who you were, which I think you always have done through your career as well.
speaker-1: Thank you very much. It's lovely to hear. It's really nice to hear. Thank you.
speaker-0: You write about TV as being both an escape and a way to understand yourself as a queer and neurodivergent person. Can you share a moment from your childhood or teens where a TV show made you feel really seen or sort of gave you a bit of hope that you've not felt before?
speaker-1: Really good question. would say Hollyoaks was massive. I think Hollyoaks was massive for a lot of people. ⁓ know, it's been a long running ⁓ series, still on now of course. And this is not in any way a negative opinion to say on the soap, but it's known for ridiculous moments. ⁓ I don't think there is a wedding without an explosion happening within it in Hollyoaks. It's always been... I think to myself of the poor people of Chester, all the things they have to endure, like they can't get a weekend. But one thing it did really well was the relationship between John Paul and Craig. You it was a storyline about two boys who started off both having girlfriends, then there was a sort of drunken kiss at a school party, then they start hooking up in secret, then one falls for the other, and it's all... behind closed doors. Now their girlfriends, think one of them comes out, but the other basically still is with a girlfriend the whole time. And this storyline lasted a whole year, pretty much on TV. And it had my whole school and sixth form sort of spellbound by it really. It was always on TV in the common tutor base. But the thing that really resonated with me was how it wasn't like the rest of Hollylogues. It was so grounded and it wasn't treated in a special case. ⁓ There was like seven storylines happening ⁓ at the same time. There was a storyline about eating disorders and ⁓ becoming a single parent. And it was all just treated in the same unfussy way, particularly when you saw the guy's case. Now this was half six on a weekday evening between ⁓ The Simpsons and Jennifer All News. So the cut through that had when beforehand a lot of... ⁓ same-sex moments or LGBTQ plus moments were on primetime. So that meant a lot to me. ⁓ It really did. And I think ⁓ it provided us that little bit of hope. And there is always a thing I think in queer storytelling which can be a bit frustrating I think is when it kind of romanticizes things too much. When things have a perpetual happy ending and you sort of think to yourself, is that really reflective of when it is right to be a young person growing up today. ⁓ But in Hollyoaks, they went really on in on a happy ending and ridiculously so. And I feel really grateful for that in a way because it kind of made me feel, yes, know, actually our love is the same as any other and we are on equal terms as everyone else and we deserve happy endings. And that meant a lot to me. And I think also like in the book, I spoke to both James and James Sutton who plays John Paul and also Brian Kirkwood who is the executive producer at the time who now works on Eastenders. And he says like 10 years on, people still come up to him and say how much it meant to them as a kid. And it makes me realize like that little storyline, that little moment, you don't hear about its impact I think so much at the time. I social media has a... ⁓ influence, but you hear it ten years later. You hear it when the kids who saw it, when they were dealing with all of these feelings and grappling with their own identity and trying to work out where they are in the world, they realize it when they speak about it, about it was an adult, about how much it had a big impact on them.
speaker-0: You speak in the book, Scott, about a force, ⁓ like a sensory overload, ⁓ feeling in in those social and intimate moments. How do you think your neurodivergence influenced your relationship with with those queer T V and and real life queer spaces as well that you went into?
speaker-1: I think what I feel grateful for is when I was writing I was able to really, as I was sort of processing it, I was only diagnosed two years ago, two and a bit years ago. And I could have avoided writing about it at all, I didn't have to, but then I felt like I really wanted to make this book a bit personal, but also I kind of felt that actually... there could be a connection here. There could be a connection between the queer TV I was watching when I was growing up and the challenges that I have as an adult sometimes. And the challenges are, and I was, you know, I hadn't really been diagnosed when I started to write this, even though was really in real time. But the challenges I was having was like, I was sort of working my way through ⁓ queer clubs and you see on TV, you know, people getting together immediately ⁓ straight away or... People felt around me like they knew what they were doing and I just felt like I wasn't kind of in loop with them. I was pushing myself to going on nights out and hoping for a bit of connection. And I was seeing all my friends around me able to do it with ease and I couldn't ever click in the same way. And I think that built at the time before diagnosis a bit of shame because I was like, why aren't I getting it right? Particularly when I was seeing on TV how characters were. And then I think, you know, post diagnosis, because I then sort of found out after Eurovision when I was there, and I think that was the first time that my sensei, I had like sensory overload, I was starting to realize I must have had it before, obviously, but that was when I was in those environments where over the course of the week, know, sort of this fuzz I was experiencing, which I kind of get when I'm in very loud environments. And I'm in a space for a prolonged period. I also get it at music festivals. I now look back and I go, ⁓ that's why I curled into a ball on day three outside a gig. That was why I suddenly burst into tears for no knowledge and had nothing to do with the music I was hearing. ⁓ I was able to, I think, ⁓ you know, a diagnosis, a late diagnosis is as I had. allowed me to retroactively think about all of the moments where I felt that I couldn't, that life wasn't clicking. And I think there's sort two things this. one, I realize that it's impossible to work out whether that is really down to my autism or, you know, we are complex individuals. It could have been down to my traits, but life is complex and it's easy to just hypothesize everything and just say, that was exactly that. So that's point one. And that's been interesting to learn. And boy, too, I think I was using TV as a way of understanding ⁓ life, really. And I think I was watching a lot of these queer moments to see how particularly men are interacting with each other and how they were navigating love and relationships. Because I felt like I had to learn as like a skill like anything else, like making a chilli con carne. So I think, you know, it's one thing I'm really... grateful for the book is being able to sort of write it down. It felt like writing a diary in a way. But also I think having the opportunity now to experience the relationship between my newer divergence and my queerness ⁓ because it's different. I still have challenges around sensory overload. I still have challenges around social cues. I'm still navigating and still learning and will be for the rest of my life. But also lot of, gratefulness as well because the connection I've had with a lot of other people who are also newer, divergent and queer has been one of the most fulfilling moments of my entire adulthood. And I'm incredibly grateful for that.
speaker-0: must have felt like therapy for you as well. Like you said, been able to go back over some of those moments and reflect through a new lens.
speaker-1: 100 % because you know I'll be honest when I first was starting to write you know this was not going to be about any of this really because what I really wanted to do was tap into, excuse me, the queer moments that influenced and shaped many of us you know that was the kind of one of the hooks but then you know the more I was writing and the more I was trying to connect it with my personal life the more I was like ⁓ okay.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's how these things end up.
speaker-0: You take us through shows like Queer as Folk and Stins That Were Roundbreaking but also came with backlash and limitations. ⁓ how do you balance celebrating those shows while acknowledging some of their flaws and the gaps that they had at the time as well?
speaker-1: I think it's very tempting to overextend any criticism. It's very easy to criticize, I think, looking back from 2026. And I don't mean this with queer TV, I mean this with everything. You know, I sort of think that like, now when you watch many shows from the early noughties, there may be a joke or a moment or a character's portrayal or anything. that you just wouldn't do today. And my concern was kind of sitting on my perch and being like, that was wrong and that was wrong and that was wrong. But then I kind of realized that, I mean, firstly, I think there's a couple of things. Firstly, like, a society, we've learned a lot over the course of the last 20 years, particularly around queer representation about what can be helpful and what can be hurtful. think we have sort of come on together and we've learned lessons. So I think sometimes we see mistakes, but you know, years later we see much better representation and that's because of the lessons that we've seen from previous opportunities. But I think also one thing I got from writing this book was sort of the curse of being first. And it's like you would have a breakthrough moment of representation, like Maxi on skins, know, a kid who... I adore. He was a kid played by Mitch Hewer on a groundbreaking youth show that was, I would say authentic, but we all know that's not right. But I would say that it was kind of provocative and wasn't aspirational, even though you kind of wanted to go to those parties anyway. But it was really different, I think was probably the right thing to say. There were so many parts of Maxi that they got right, I think, in terms of how he came across on the show and ⁓ the fact that he wasn't talking about his trauma. He was already out, he was part of the group, and that was great. ⁓ But then, in my view, later on, his love interests were sidelined. He didn't always have that same level that other characters had. And I wrote about that being for, and I remember being frustrated about that. But then I then have to think, ⁓ hang on, this was still the first character who was on a youth show that was British that really spoke to me. it, you know, like, and I think that what happens is, and speak to Russell T. Davies in the book, you know, he says that what happens is it's like a, so many writers see a character, particularly on Soaps. and they see all of the character traits that they like, but then they go, that's not right, that's not right, that's not right. And then they write that into the next character that comes along. So it's sort of, you know, it's very easy not to be overly critical because if anything, that character or that show was one of the foundations to another better character and show. ⁓ So I try to keep a balance, ⁓ but it can be tempting to... I'm a TV Chrisick at the end of the day.
speaker-0: You mentioned just then, ⁓ you know, you spoke to Russell T. Davis and other key creators behind these shows. ⁓ was there anything they shared that surprised you or changed how you think about Queer T V and some of those shows that you loved so much at the time?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think I spoke to Jonathan Harvey, who is incredible. He is a real character, he's done beautiful people, a fantastic late noughties sitcom. did the ⁓ sitcom Gimme Gimme Gimme as well, beloved by many people. ⁓ This book's about TV, but I couldn't write about Beautiful Thing, which was a film he wrote. and it's about two teenagers who fall in love on a counter estate ⁓ and it's incredibly grounded and it's like funny and it's uplifting and ⁓ it's a very sort of sweet film. And then I was asking him like, you know, what made you want to write it? He was incredibly young when he wrote it. I think in his early 20s, he was working as a teacher on a similar estate, I think in the area. And he was talking about how he wrote that ⁓ while ⁓ in parliament or in the House of Lords, think, they were debating, I think, bringing down the age of consent, because this was 1994, bringing down the of consent from, think, either 21 to 18 or 18 to 16, but basically trying to have it towards where it is now today, which is equal with heterosexuals. But back then, there was a few years gap. Jonathan was incensed because what he was hearing or reading about in the press were loads of debates about, know, sodomy and buggery and, you know, really kind of awful terms really to describe queer people being debated nationally in the paper and in the highest levels of politics. And he was so incensed and angry that he ended up writing one of the most sweetest life-affirming stories of all time. And it's made me really think about kind of the relationship between anger and creativity, about how you can have such an anger about the state of the world and how things are unjust and unfair, and yet you can make beautiful art from that. Because Beautiful Thing is just beautiful. It's a lovely, life-affirming film. And he also said to me that a lot of the inspiration for it was a correction. about trying to take something that was so angry and turn it into, you know, try to show the reality of just these two boys falling in love, you know, try to correct the record from away from what they were saying in Parliament. And it's something I still reflect on really, because you wouldn't think that from watching Beautiful Thing. It was based on something so awful really.
speaker-0: No, I'd I'd never think that. Like you said, it's such a beautiful film and just shows what can come out of those circumstances.
speaker-1: Yeah, it really does. I love it. And it's also celebrating its 30th year. So there's doing a lot of screenings, think, throughout the UK, including, I think, Q &As with Hetty McDonald, who is the director, and with John Harvie as well. So I'd highly recommend looking out for it if you haven't seen it already.
speaker-0: Yeah, it'll be great for new ⁓ new audiences to be able to see the film as well for the first time. ⁓ but you speak a lot as well in the book about how ⁓ the TV you watched shaped your expectations and experiences of love and intimacy, sometimes in really complicated ⁓ complicated ways. So I wondered for you, Strutt, how you think Queer T V can better support young people navigating their identities today?
speaker-1: I think queer TV has come on so far and one part of the puzzle that has been solved, that I've learned, is that now a lot of the bosses who commission these shows, who are serving as executive producers, are queer people themselves. And that did not used to be the case. ⁓ Queer writers and producers and actors now really had to f— fight to get seen on the screen and now they're the people making the decisions. And that is great. That's why we have shows like I Kissed a Girl, I Kissed a Boy, because the people who are very senior who said yes, I think, well, have said to me, you know, that they come from the community and that's really life affirming. I always think there's more to do. I'm a perfectionist in terms of what I to say. And I think like, you know, we, excuse me, we still need to see more asexual representation, bisexual representation. every day on TV. It is getting better. Like, Oscar-branning in these tenders, being involved in a bisexual love triangle was unthinkable 20 years ago, and now it's treated without a fuss. We are heading in the right direction, but we are not on equal parity. Particularly when it comes to, I think, as always, TV, where it's not the only thing we learn about them is their identity. I'm a firm believer in flawed characters. Characters you root for. characters who you really get frustrated by and whether they are LGBTQ plus plays into who they are but that's not the only thing we know about them you know it makes part of their identity so I think that's good and I also think like one of the ways that TV really shapes society is through really good representation and great food characters in a sense like being a beautiful thing And back in the 80s and 90s, was gay and lesbian representation. think now, if TV really ⁓ has fantastic trans characters, but also gives opportunities to trans writers, not just to write trans issues, just things that they want to write about. And you have ⁓ really strong, distinctive characters ⁓ in plots, in shows, in dramas, in the first person, so forth, that will really help. ⁓ I think in the same way it did back in the 80s and 90s for a lot of gay and lesbian people. ⁓ I think TV still has such an important role to play and shouldn't be overlooked. that's sort of how I see it now. The real big concern I think is that, and this is where I become a real TV geek, is that we've had a retraction in the amount of shows being made at the moment. Many reasons, but like, the streamers are spending less. ⁓ There's a downturn on ITV channel 4 money, BBC license fee, all of that stuff. That tends to mean that the shows that we commission are safer, ⁓ quote unquote safer, not my belief, but in terms of like trying to attract mainstream audiences, largest audiences possible. And as a result, it means shows for ⁓ smaller audiences, queer audiences, minority ethnic audiences. to not get as much investment or get made at all. So that's my concern is trying to make sure that these shows, which are important, are still being made because they serve and they help so many people.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And thinking about T V now, 'cause I know you do your weekly reviews, is there a show that you think is pushing the needle for queer representation? Why should we all be watching it?
speaker-1: Well, I think one from last year I absolutely adored was, well there's two actually. One was last year, what it feels like for a girl, I thought was fantastic, based on the Paris Lees memoir. Amazing. Because it was about, it was so good, and it was about somebody realizing their gender identity, but it was so much more than just that part of that storyline. It was about them experiencing, you know, becoming an adult and their working class identity and... ⁓ sort of using nightlife as a way to deal with incredibly complex social problems. you know, I, I just found it was like so creative and different and bold, and it was exactly what it should have been. You know, fantastic. He got the, ⁓ kudos he deserved. And I think also there's a show at the moment called Proud. It's on HBO. It's been out for a couple of months. It's in, ⁓ Polish. And it's about a young model who ends up becoming a ⁓ father or basically has to become the guardian of his niece because his sister in this drama sort of dies and he has to basically be a sort of gay single guardian. ⁓ And I thought, you know, it doesn't fall into the tropes of, ⁓ this is what it's like to have a kid. You know, it's really fought for when it's grounded. And I think what is interesting is it looks at LGBTQ plus ⁓ sort of lives in Europe in a quite conservative society and the stigma and homophobia that exists over there because basically he has to grapple with trying to raise a kid and the authorities might take her away because he's a gay man and it's not as what it's like over here. So I think like that that thoughtful perspective of this ongoing issue makes you realize how much there is still to do worldwide. thought Afford was great, so that's available on HBO and also available now as well.
speaker-0: ⁓ check that out. It sounds great. ⁓ but just to end on, Scott, thinking about all of the queer characters that have shaped you, ⁓ past and present, if you could invite one to a dinner party, who would it be and why?
speaker-1: That's such a good question. Such a good question. I would love John Paul and Craig just because, like, icons from that era and they will always be a part of my life. think also Andrew Vandykamp from Desperate Housewives. ⁓ my word. Like, absolutely phenomenal character. ⁓ He was really, really evil. He was a great gay villain.
speaker-0: Great choice.
speaker-1: you know, rebelled against Brie Landycap, his mother, all the time, did everything wrong, but also was so unapologetic about his identity, like, I think it's expressed by Mark Cherry, who is the executive producer in the book, where he was like, Andrew's gay and he doesn't care. So when he was getting a lot of homophobia, things thrown his way, he didn't care. And I just, loved him when I was, I had such a massive crush on him. So yeah, it'd good to see how he's doing, I guess. I mean, he's a fictional character from a television show. Doesn't exist. I'd certainly have him along. How about you, Havik?
speaker-0: Do you know what? For me, like when I think about the shows that have shaped me more recently, I like I think of the likes of Heartstopper, like you said, some of those moments ⁓ on the soaps, but I think it was more films for me, really, maybe 'cause I was just unaware of, you know, what was going on on T V at the time. ⁓ so things like Love Simon, for example.
speaker-1: Yeah, huge yeah
speaker-0: ⁓ but yeah, that there's so many, ⁓ that you y that they have an impact on you, don't they? And you don't really realise it the time when you're watching it.
speaker-1: I mean, that's been kind of the biggest reflection I've had from writing the book, is that a small moment can mean so much, but you don't really know it at the time. It's sort of like years later you go, ⁓ okay, that and that meant that. And it's an amazing resource. I think, you know, it's changed now. think a lot of people find, maybe first on the internet, and of course, there's a plethora of alt-celebrities, which can only be a good thing. But it's so important for our culture. ⁓ It all comes down to someone really fighting for something to make it onto the screen. Because when it does, it's magical.
speaker-0: It really is. And yeah, your book's full of those moments. So congratulations and out on the third of September, isn't it? So
speaker-1: is, it is. And I'll be, yeah, I think I'm gonna try not to crawl into a ball on the day. Thank you for reading and for your brilliant questions.
speaker-0: Thank you so much for chatting stuff. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of my Stage and Scream podcast. Scott Bryan's new book Out Now is available now. You'll find the link in the show notes if you want to pick up your copy. If you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to rate and review the podcast wherever you're listening. It really helps. I'll see you soon.
speaker-1: Thank you Harvey. Thanks for having me.
speaker-0: I have to say your work's been such a huge inspiration to me as well growing up obsessed with radio and T V myself. ⁓ your Twitter feed was where I first discovered you and it's just shaped so much of my knowledge and interest over the years. What was it like for you turning all of those personal reflections and all of your cultural observations into a full
speaker-1: Thank you.
speaker-0: Memoir and died to Queer T B.
speaker-1: think it was ⁓ quite ⁓ liberating in a way. think a lot about this book ⁓ was trying to work out how queer TV really resonated with me. Because I've always loved TV. It's pretty evident from my social media that I do. And I sort of felt like ⁓ I really wanted to tap into how it shapes all of us. Because I knew it had shaped me. ⁓ particularly us growing up in, ⁓ many of us have grown up at a time when there were very few moments of queerness on TV. I sort of felt that like those moments I still really remember and I really reflect on it and I kind of wanted to look at like what it was like to grow up in that generation where those moments were very few and far between. And that's what about now taps into it, it's kind of what it was like to be in a generation where there were far fewer moments of ⁓ LGBTQ plus representation on television and to highlight the importance of TV. But then to answer your question, I think like what then happened was that it became way more personal than I ever anticipated it to be. ⁓ Because I was really trying to tap into like, why have I relied on television so much ⁓ and you know why has it become this sort of safe territory. ⁓ So the book ends up becoming a fun little deep dive into newer diversions that I didn't expect but also I was really happy to explore ⁓ and also just sort of trying to find your way as an adult and how TV can can feel like a really sort of wonderful place, but it can be quite formulaic whilst life itself is a little bit more complicated, isn't it?
speaker-0: Absolutely. I mean the title of the book out now captures so much. It's brilliant. I guess ⁓ for you, you that was like the day that you came out in your French class the same week as Coronation Street had its first day kiss because she just sort of said it there and then. Can you tell us a bit about that week and the timing of it all?
speaker-1: Yeah, so the book sort of starts with me literally coming out in French class. I came out in French first. It's quite bougie. There's no other way about it. quite bougie. It was so surreal because I grew up in Dorset where unfortunately there was a lot of homophobia. But I was blissfully unaware of it beforehand. And I felt that LGBTQ plus TV moments on TV were so rare that I didn't know that coming out would be so much of a big thing. I think I was like blissfully unaware in a sort of weird way. So the night before was when Todd kissed Nick on Coronation Street, the Soaps First Gay Kiss. And that was watched by about 40 million people. I'd seen a bit of it. I kind of tuned in, didn't really see what the fuss was about the next day. ⁓ It must have been kind of in my mind of like, you know, what will people think about, you know, what would people think if I came out? So I thought to come out in French, but then do it as a bit of a joke and then retract it. So it was like, you know, just sweet homosexual or just sweet gay. And they were like, v'est mort? And I was like, oui. And it was very much a back and forth. I then thought... You know what, Soddie, I am going to tell them. But it was like not to frighten us or anything. It was like to a random person in French class. And then the next day the whole school knew and the trajectory of my teenage youth kind of changed because forever I'd been, I think, the only out person at school. unfortunately homophobia ticked up. But I felt like what was really interesting looking back at that time is not only the... how that one flippant moment changed my life. It was also looking at the news media at the time, ⁓ reflecting on Todd kissing Nick, because a lot of it was so, so, so negative. Not treating it as a positive moment at all. I think the viewers, the majority of the viewers, I think saw it as a really good thing. And of course the press don't reflect. ⁓ what the general public think really, I think there was a bit of a distance. ⁓ but, but seeing headlines saying like night of shame the next day, ⁓ or sort of a lot of national media debate trying to provoke it as a quote unquote debate about, know, whether it should be shown to kids, all of that stuff. I think it lingered, ⁓ for me, and I think it lingered for a lot of other people. And it's made me, I think as a journalist, you know, which is my general job now. I feel quite conflicted because I love being a journalist, I love being a writer. I feel very proud to be an openly gay writer. But then also like the press has done, I mean even now, certainly some really bad things. And it's that kind of challenge on your own conscience, I think. And how the media environment then was... very different to how it is now. Now generally, course, trans lives are awfully negatively affected on a daily basis by the actions of the press. But I mean in a general sense, you have queer characters in prime time and the press don't really go after them as much as they used to now. It's a very changed media environment.
speaker-0: No, that was such a brave thing for you to do though. And it must have been inspired by so many of those T V shows that you talk about in the book and just feeling comfortable enough. And like you said, you were unaware, but you you did that brave thing anyway. And even though it sort of had its consequences for you, you just stood by who you were, which I think you always have done through your career as well.
speaker-1: Thank you very much. It's lovely to hear. It's really nice to hear. Thank you.
speaker-0: You write about TV as being both an escape and a way to understand yourself as a queer and neurodivergent person. Can you share a moment from your childhood or teens where a TV show made you feel really seen or sort of gave you a bit of hope that you've not felt before?
speaker-1: Really good question. would say Hollyoaks was massive. I think Hollyoaks was massive for a lot of people. ⁓ know, it's been a long running ⁓ series, still on now of course. And this is not in any way a negative opinion to say on the soap, but it's known for ridiculous moments. ⁓ I don't think there is a wedding without an explosion happening within it in Hollyoaks. It's always been... I think to myself of the poor people of Chester, all the things they have to endure, like they can't get a weekend. But one thing it did really well was the relationship between John Paul and Craig. You it was a storyline about two boys who started off both having girlfriends, then there was a sort of drunken kiss at a school party, then they start hooking up in secret, then one falls for the other, and it's all... behind closed doors. Now their girlfriends, think one of them comes out, but the other basically still is with a girlfriend the whole time. And this storyline lasted a whole year, pretty much on TV. And it had my whole school and sixth form sort of spellbound by it really. It was always on TV in the common tutor base. But the thing that really resonated with me was how it wasn't like the rest of Hollylogues. It was so grounded and it wasn't treated in a special case. ⁓ There was like seven storylines happening ⁓ at the same time. There was a storyline about eating disorders and ⁓ becoming a single parent. And it was all just treated in the same unfussy way, particularly when you saw the guy's case. Now this was half six on a weekday evening between ⁓ The Simpsons and Jennifer All News. So the cut through that had when beforehand a lot of... ⁓ same-sex moments or LGBTQ plus moments were on primetime. So that meant a lot to me. ⁓ It really did. And I think ⁓ it provided us that little bit of hope. And there is always a thing I think in queer storytelling which can be a bit frustrating I think is when it kind of romanticizes things too much. When things have a perpetual happy ending and you sort of think to yourself, is that really reflective of when it is right to be a young person growing up today. ⁓ But in Hollyoaks, they went really on in on a happy ending and ridiculously so. And I feel really grateful for that in a way because it kind of made me feel, yes, know, actually our love is the same as any other and we are on equal terms as everyone else and we deserve happy endings. And that meant a lot to me. And I think also like in the book, I spoke to both James and James Sutton who plays John Paul and also Brian Kirkwood who is the executive producer at the time who now works on Eastenders. And he says like 10 years on, people still come up to him and say how much it meant to them as a kid. And it makes me realize like that little storyline, that little moment, you don't hear about its impact I think so much at the time. I social media has a... ⁓ influence, but you hear it ten years later. You hear it when the kids who saw it, when they were dealing with all of these feelings and grappling with their own identity and trying to work out where they are in the world, they realize it when they speak about it, about it was an adult, about how much it had a big impact on them.
speaker-0: You speak in the book, Scott, about a force, ⁓ like a sensory overload, ⁓ feeling in in those social and intimate moments. How do you think your neurodivergence influenced your relationship with with those queer T V and and real life queer spaces as well that you went into?
speaker-1: I think what I feel grateful for is when I was writing I was able to really, as I was sort of processing it, I was only diagnosed two years ago, two and a bit years ago. And I could have avoided writing about it at all, I didn't have to, but then I felt like I really wanted to make this book a bit personal, but also I kind of felt that actually... there could be a connection here. There could be a connection between the queer TV I was watching when I was growing up and the challenges that I have as an adult sometimes. And the challenges are, and I was, you know, I hadn't really been diagnosed when I started to write this, even though was really in real time. But the challenges I was having was like, I was sort of working my way through ⁓ queer clubs and you see on TV, you know, people getting together immediately ⁓ straight away or... People felt around me like they knew what they were doing and I just felt like I wasn't kind of in loop with them. I was pushing myself to going on nights out and hoping for a bit of connection. And I was seeing all my friends around me able to do it with ease and I couldn't ever click in the same way. And I think that built at the time before diagnosis a bit of shame because I was like, why aren't I getting it right? Particularly when I was seeing on TV how characters were. And then I think, you know, post diagnosis, because I then sort of found out after Eurovision when I was there, and I think that was the first time that my sensei, I had like sensory overload, I was starting to realize I must have had it before, obviously, but that was when I was in those environments where over the course of the week, know, sort of this fuzz I was experiencing, which I kind of get when I'm in very loud environments. And I'm in a space for a prolonged period. I also get it at music festivals. I now look back and I go, ⁓ that's why I curled into a ball on day three outside a gig. That was why I suddenly burst into tears for no knowledge and had nothing to do with the music I was hearing. ⁓ I was able to, I think, ⁓ you know, a diagnosis, a late diagnosis is as I had. allowed me to retroactively think about all of the moments where I felt that I couldn't, that life wasn't clicking. And I think there's sort two things this. one, I realize that it's impossible to work out whether that is really down to my autism or, you know, we are complex individuals. It could have been down to my traits, but life is complex and it's easy to just hypothesize everything and just say, that was exactly that. So that's point one. And that's been interesting to learn. And boy, too, I think I was using TV as a way of understanding ⁓ life, really. And I think I was watching a lot of these queer moments to see how particularly men are interacting with each other and how they were navigating love and relationships. Because I felt like I had to learn as like a skill like anything else, like making a chilli con carne. So I think, you know, it's one thing I'm really... grateful for the book is being able to sort of write it down. It felt like writing a diary in a way. But also I think having the opportunity now to experience the relationship between my newer divergence and my queerness ⁓ because it's different. I still have challenges around sensory overload. I still have challenges around social cues. I'm still navigating and still learning and will be for the rest of my life. But also lot of, gratefulness as well because the connection I've had with a lot of other people who are also newer, divergent and queer has been one of the most fulfilling moments of my entire adulthood. And I'm incredibly grateful for that.
speaker-0: must have felt like therapy for you as well. Like you said, been able to go back over some of those moments and reflect through a new lens.
speaker-1: 100 % because you know I'll be honest when I first was starting to write you know this was not going to be about any of this really because what I really wanted to do was tap into, excuse me, the queer moments that influenced and shaped many of us you know that was the kind of one of the hooks but then you know the more I was writing and the more I was trying to connect it with my personal life the more I was like ⁓ okay.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's how these things end up.
speaker-0: You take us through shows like Queer as Folk and Stins That Were Roundbreaking but also came with backlash and limitations. ⁓ how do you balance celebrating those shows while acknowledging some of their flaws and the gaps that they had at the time as well?
speaker-1: I think it's very tempting to overextend any criticism. It's very easy to criticize, I think, looking back from 2026. And I don't mean this with queer TV, I mean this with everything. You know, I sort of think that like, now when you watch many shows from the early noughties, there may be a joke or a moment or a character's portrayal or anything. that you just wouldn't do today. And my concern was kind of sitting on my perch and being like, that was wrong and that was wrong and that was wrong. But then I kind of realized that, I mean, firstly, I think there's a couple of things. Firstly, like, a society, we've learned a lot over the course of the last 20 years, particularly around queer representation about what can be helpful and what can be hurtful. think we have sort of come on together and we've learned lessons. So I think sometimes we see mistakes, but you know, years later we see much better representation and that's because of the lessons that we've seen from previous opportunities. But I think also one thing I got from writing this book was sort of the curse of being first. And it's like you would have a breakthrough moment of representation, like Maxi on skins, know, a kid who... I adore. He was a kid played by Mitch Hewer on a groundbreaking youth show that was, I would say authentic, but we all know that's not right. But I would say that it was kind of provocative and wasn't aspirational, even though you kind of wanted to go to those parties anyway. But it was really different, I think was probably the right thing to say. There were so many parts of Maxi that they got right, I think, in terms of how he came across on the show and ⁓ the fact that he wasn't talking about his trauma. He was already out, he was part of the group, and that was great. ⁓ But then, in my view, later on, his love interests were sidelined. He didn't always have that same level that other characters had. And I wrote about that being for, and I remember being frustrated about that. But then I then have to think, ⁓ hang on, this was still the first character who was on a youth show that was British that really spoke to me. it, you know, like, and I think that what happens is, and speak to Russell T. Davies in the book, you know, he says that what happens is it's like a, so many writers see a character, particularly on Soaps. and they see all of the character traits that they like, but then they go, that's not right, that's not right, that's not right. And then they write that into the next character that comes along. So it's sort of, you know, it's very easy not to be overly critical because if anything, that character or that show was one of the foundations to another better character and show. ⁓ So I try to keep a balance, ⁓ but it can be tempting to... I'm a TV Chrisick at the end of the day.
speaker-0: You mentioned just then, ⁓ you know, you spoke to Russell T. Davis and other key creators behind these shows. ⁓ was there anything they shared that surprised you or changed how you think about Queer T V and some of those shows that you loved so much at the time?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think I spoke to Jonathan Harvey, who is incredible. He is a real character, he's done beautiful people, a fantastic late noughties sitcom. did the ⁓ sitcom Gimme Gimme Gimme as well, beloved by many people. ⁓ This book's about TV, but I couldn't write about Beautiful Thing, which was a film he wrote. and it's about two teenagers who fall in love on a counter estate ⁓ and it's incredibly grounded and it's like funny and it's uplifting and ⁓ it's a very sort of sweet film. And then I was asking him like, you know, what made you want to write it? He was incredibly young when he wrote it. I think in his early 20s, he was working as a teacher on a similar estate, I think in the area. And he was talking about how he wrote that ⁓ while ⁓ in parliament or in the House of Lords, think, they were debating, I think, bringing down the age of consent, because this was 1994, bringing down the of consent from, think, either 21 to 18 or 18 to 16, but basically trying to have it towards where it is now today, which is equal with heterosexuals. But back then, there was a few years gap. Jonathan was incensed because what he was hearing or reading about in the press were loads of debates about, know, sodomy and buggery and, you know, really kind of awful terms really to describe queer people being debated nationally in the paper and in the highest levels of politics. And he was so incensed and angry that he ended up writing one of the most sweetest life-affirming stories of all time. And it's made me really think about kind of the relationship between anger and creativity, about how you can have such an anger about the state of the world and how things are unjust and unfair, and yet you can make beautiful art from that. Because Beautiful Thing is just beautiful. It's a lovely, life-affirming film. And he also said to me that a lot of the inspiration for it was a correction. about trying to take something that was so angry and turn it into, you know, try to show the reality of just these two boys falling in love, you know, try to correct the record from away from what they were saying in Parliament. And it's something I still reflect on really, because you wouldn't think that from watching Beautiful Thing. It was based on something so awful really.
speaker-0: No, I'd I'd never think that. Like you said, it's such a beautiful film and just shows what can come out of those circumstances.
speaker-1: Yeah, it really does. I love it. And it's also celebrating its 30th year. So there's doing a lot of screenings, think, throughout the UK, including, I think, Q &As with Hetty McDonald, who is the director, and with John Harvie as well. So I'd highly recommend looking out for it if you haven't seen it already.
speaker-0: Yeah, it'll be great for new ⁓ new audiences to be able to see the film as well for the first time. ⁓ but you speak a lot as well in the book about how ⁓ the TV you watched shaped your expectations and experiences of love and intimacy, sometimes in really complicated ⁓ complicated ways. So I wondered for you, Strutt, how you think Queer T V can better support young people navigating their identities today?
speaker-1: I think queer TV has come on so far and one part of the puzzle that has been solved, that I've learned, is that now a lot of the bosses who commission these shows, who are serving as executive producers, are queer people themselves. And that did not used to be the case. ⁓ Queer writers and producers and actors now really had to f— fight to get seen on the screen and now they're the people making the decisions. And that is great. That's why we have shows like I Kissed a Girl, I Kissed a Boy, because the people who are very senior who said yes, I think, well, have said to me, you know, that they come from the community and that's really life affirming. I always think there's more to do. I'm a perfectionist in terms of what I to say. And I think like, you know, we, excuse me, we still need to see more asexual representation, bisexual representation. every day on TV. It is getting better. Like, Oscar-branning in these tenders, being involved in a bisexual love triangle was unthinkable 20 years ago, and now it's treated without a fuss. We are heading in the right direction, but we are not on equal parity. Particularly when it comes to, I think, as always, TV, where it's not the only thing we learn about them is their identity. I'm a firm believer in flawed characters. Characters you root for. characters who you really get frustrated by and whether they are LGBTQ plus plays into who they are but that's not the only thing we know about them you know it makes part of their identity so I think that's good and I also think like one of the ways that TV really shapes society is through really good representation and great food characters in a sense like being a beautiful thing And back in the 80s and 90s, was gay and lesbian representation. think now, if TV really ⁓ has fantastic trans characters, but also gives opportunities to trans writers, not just to write trans issues, just things that they want to write about. And you have ⁓ really strong, distinctive characters ⁓ in plots, in shows, in dramas, in the first person, so forth, that will really help. ⁓ I think in the same way it did back in the 80s and 90s for a lot of gay and lesbian people. ⁓ I think TV still has such an important role to play and shouldn't be overlooked. that's sort of how I see it now. The real big concern I think is that, and this is where I become a real TV geek, is that we've had a retraction in the amount of shows being made at the moment. Many reasons, but like, the streamers are spending less. ⁓ There's a downturn on ITV channel 4 money, BBC license fee, all of that stuff. That tends to mean that the shows that we commission are safer, ⁓ quote unquote safer, not my belief, but in terms of like trying to attract mainstream audiences, largest audiences possible. And as a result, it means shows for ⁓ smaller audiences, queer audiences, minority ethnic audiences. to not get as much investment or get made at all. So that's my concern is trying to make sure that these shows, which are important, are still being made because they serve and they help so many people.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And thinking about T V now, 'cause I know you do your weekly reviews, is there a show that you think is pushing the needle for queer representation? Why should we all be watching it?
speaker-1: Well, I think one from last year I absolutely adored was, well there's two actually. One was last year, what it feels like for a girl, I thought was fantastic, based on the Paris Lees memoir. Amazing. Because it was about, it was so good, and it was about somebody realizing their gender identity, but it was so much more than just that part of that storyline. It was about them experiencing, you know, becoming an adult and their working class identity and... ⁓ sort of using nightlife as a way to deal with incredibly complex social problems. you know, I, I just found it was like so creative and different and bold, and it was exactly what it should have been. You know, fantastic. He got the, ⁓ kudos he deserved. And I think also there's a show at the moment called Proud. It's on HBO. It's been out for a couple of months. It's in, ⁓ Polish. And it's about a young model who ends up becoming a ⁓ father or basically has to become the guardian of his niece because his sister in this drama sort of dies and he has to basically be a sort of gay single guardian. ⁓ And I thought, you know, it doesn't fall into the tropes of, ⁓ this is what it's like to have a kid. You know, it's really fought for when it's grounded. And I think what is interesting is it looks at LGBTQ plus ⁓ sort of lives in Europe in a quite conservative society and the stigma and homophobia that exists over there because basically he has to grapple with trying to raise a kid and the authorities might take her away because he's a gay man and it's not as what it's like over here. So I think like that that thoughtful perspective of this ongoing issue makes you realize how much there is still to do worldwide. thought Afford was great, so that's available on HBO and also available now as well.
speaker-0: ⁓ check that out. It sounds great. ⁓ but just to end on, Scott, thinking about all of the queer characters that have shaped you, ⁓ past and present, if you could invite one to a dinner party, who would it be and why?
speaker-1: That's such a good question. Such a good question. I would love John Paul and Craig just because, like, icons from that era and they will always be a part of my life. think also Andrew Vandykamp from Desperate Housewives. ⁓ my word. Like, absolutely phenomenal character. ⁓ He was really, really evil. He was a great gay villain.
speaker-0: Great choice.
speaker-1: you know, rebelled against Brie Landycap, his mother, all the time, did everything wrong, but also was so unapologetic about his identity, like, I think it's expressed by Mark Cherry, who is the executive producer in the book, where he was like, Andrew's gay and he doesn't care. So when he was getting a lot of homophobia, things thrown his way, he didn't care. And I just, loved him when I was, I had such a massive crush on him. So yeah, it'd good to see how he's doing, I guess. I mean, he's a fictional character from a television show. Doesn't exist. I'd certainly have him along. How about you, Havik?
speaker-0: Do you know what? For me, like when I think about the shows that have shaped me more recently, I like I think of the likes of Heartstopper, like you said, some of those moments ⁓ on the soaps, but I think it was more films for me, really, maybe 'cause I was just unaware of, you know, what was going on on T V at the time. ⁓ so things like Love Simon, for example.
speaker-1: Yeah, huge yeah
speaker-0: ⁓ but yeah, that there's so many, ⁓ that you y that they have an impact on you, don't they? And you don't really realise it the time when you're watching it.
speaker-1: I mean, that's been kind of the biggest reflection I've had from writing the book, is that a small moment can mean so much, but you don't really know it at the time. It's sort of like years later you go, ⁓ okay, that and that meant that. And it's an amazing resource. I think, you know, it's changed now. think a lot of people find, maybe first on the internet, and of course, there's a plethora of alt-celebrities, which can only be a good thing. But it's so important for our culture. ⁓ It all comes down to someone really fighting for something to make it onto the screen. Because when it does, it's magical.
speaker-0: It really is. And yeah, your book's full of those moments. So congratulations and out on the third of September, isn't it? So
speaker-1: is, it is. And I'll be, yeah, I think I'm gonna try not to crawl into a ball on the day. Thank you for reading and for your brilliant questions.
speaker-0: Thank you so much for chatting stuff. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of my Stage and Scream podcast. Scott Bryan's new book Out Now is available now. You'll find the link in the show notes if you want to pick up your copy. If you enjoyed this episode, please do take a moment to rate and review the podcast wherever you're listening. It really helps. I'll see you soon.
