Buy or Sell: The Case for Building B2B Relationships, with Dr. Ryan O’Sullivan

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In today's episode of Spiraling Up, we're speaking with researcher and keynote speaker Dr.
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Ryan O'Sullivan about the power of building stronger business relationships, and then is the hype around GEO versus SEO.
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Nothing more than just hype.
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Our team's gonna discuss.
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Welcome, everyone.
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This is spiraling up with Hinge.
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Welcome everyone to spiraling up the podcast for professional services marketers and business leaders.
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My name is Austin McNair, and as always, I am joined by my colleagues and co-hosts, Mary Blanche Kramer.
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Greetings and salutations Austin.
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Greetings and Salutations, and Joe Pope.
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What's up Joe?
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I officially rose the desk today so I could really hit the dancing intro piece that's in our show notes.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, the energy is great.
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Today we've got a great guest who we're gonna be speaking with, Dr.
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Ryan O'Sullivan.
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I wanna say hey to everybody who is joining us again for another episode of Spiraling Up.
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As always, we want to thank you for listening to the podcast.
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This is a new podcast.
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We're just getting started.
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Please make sure you.
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Like the video, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and if you are listening on an audio platform, go and leave us a review guys.
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I actually have some sad news.
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Right now, at the moment, we only have one review, and I think it's on Apple.
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We have zero on Spotify.
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We only have one on Apple.
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So if you're listening, please leave us a review.
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If you've liked the podcast, if you've enjoyed any of our episodes, uh, send, leave us a review.
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Tell us what you like.
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Tell us what your favorite episode WA was.
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Tell us which one of us you like more.
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Is it Mary Blanche?
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Is it Joe?
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Is it me?
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Let us know.
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Just leave us a review.
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It's gonna help the, uh, podcast a lot as we continue to grow.
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Invite on new guests.
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What's happening, guys?
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I have a solution to our review problem.
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Oh yeah.
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What's that,
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Uh, we just need Taylor Swift to join the podcast.
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She's doing podcasts now.
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It's gonna be an easy solution.
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She joins the podcast.
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Millions of views.
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Joe?
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Tell us.
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Tell us what's going on with that.
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Like, I'm excited because football season is here, but it seems like you've been more excited this week because of a new Taylor Swift album announcement.
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correct.
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She announced it, uh, on her boyfriend and, uh, his brother.
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It's podcast Travis and Jason Kelsey, new Taylor Swift album.
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The Life of Life of a Showgirl.
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Did I botch that?
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I think it is.
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It's the life of a Showgirl, right?
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And what do we think about that as a, as a marketing play?
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I mean, she's got a huge audience.
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She's released tons of albums.
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Joe, where do you rate this on a scale of, you know, one to 10 in terms of her album releases?
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I think it's a perfect point to make in the idea of relationship growth.
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So the.
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Action of Taylor and, Travis Kelsey's relationship.
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They've been using it to raise the profile of everyone around them.
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I know we're gonna talk with, uh, Dr.
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Ryan Oel today, and he talks all about relationships.
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so it's a, it's a nice tie in.
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I mean, you, I, now we've got, uh, Jason Kelsey's wife has a podcast.
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The mom is all over commercials.
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you know, we can't get enough Taylor Swift on tv.
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Um, I think she made a joke about that in the intro of the podcast about.
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That's what male sports fans want is more Taylor Swift on their screens.
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So it's, uh, I, I do think it really does make a good tie in though to the relationship piece,
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Did she say when it, when it's being released?
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the album itself.
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Yeah.
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Or just that there was one.
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she did say, and I don't have the date up in front of me, so I guess I'm a terrible swifty.
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Well, while you're excited for Taylor Swift, Mary Blanche and I are just excited that football's back and we'll be watching, uh, watching our favorite teams go and setting up hopefully an office fantasy League one that traditionally.
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what I.
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Sorry.
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I said that's what I'm most excited about, less watching of the football, more of the, uh, just beating both of you again this year and,
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Yeah.
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You're only excited about fantasy football because somehow some way you always find a way to win, uh, the league.
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So, well, I don't wanna delay much further.
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We've got a great guest here.
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He's waiting for us.
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Let's turn now to our, really, I, I, I think it's gonna be really insightful.
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Interview with Dr.
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Ryan O.
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Sullivan.
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All right, well, we are honored to welcome today's guest, Dr.
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Ryan O'Sullivan.
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Ryan has spent over 20 years researching and evangelizing a relationship.
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First approach to growing revenue.
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Ryan spent seven years researching his topic for his PhD.
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He's a regular speaker on.
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This subject at industry events and guest lectures at universities.
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He is a global account manager for Intro Hive, a company that provides relationship mapping software.
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Ryan has recently published a book on how to identify and map and develop key relationships.
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Dr.
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Ryan, welcome to Spiraling Up.
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My pleasure.
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Thanks for, thanks for welcoming me.
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I'm look, really looking forward to today.
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Well, I have to say, uh, Dr.
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Ryan, you interrupted my typical summer reading, which I, this year is rereading the Harry Potter book series with your book.
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Building B2B relationships.
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Uh, I will say it's a welcome breakup.
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I, you know, I'll get back to the half plug Prince, uh, next week.
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But I've really enjoyed diving into a topic that I think a lot of times marketers, you, you always think so global, right?
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So, and, and so big idea and, and some of the concepts though certainly borrows from some bigger ideas.
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But this relationship mapping, right?
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I mean, there's this concept of just bringing people together and understanding a lot.
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To reflect on, and I think we're gonna have a great time today talking through some of these key topics for the audience.
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Great.
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And yeah, thanks for the honor with, uh, the Dr.
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Ryan, but we can just stick to playing old Ryan if that's okay with you.
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I was chatting to a, a good friend of mine, uh, recently and we, we were talking about the doctor and he said, lemme just get this straight.
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What type of doctor are you?
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Are you like Dr.
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Phil, Dr.
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Joe, Joe Biden?
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Are you like Dr.
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Dre?
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So I said out of the three, I'm closer to Dr.
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Jill Biden.
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So it's, it's not a medical doctor, it is a real, uh, PhD, but, uh, not, I'm not able to, uh, to save, save anybody on an airplane.
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If they says there a doctor on board, I'll try, but I'm not sure I'll help.
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Okay, well then Ryan, um, you know, at Hinge we we're big believers in using research to guide our thought leadership content.
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So could you tell the audience a little bit more about the research that you've done to guide your thinking?
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So having spent a career in sales, uh, it's very common for salespeople or client facing people in general to to have very rose tinted glasses about the quality of the relationships that they have.
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So I was no different to that.
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I guess as, as going through that, that process of learning and, and, uh, understanding, uh, how relationships are formed.
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when I was at Infosys, that's a big, large, uh, IT services firm, so spent eight and a half years there.
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That's where I really honed this, passion, I guess of, and curiosity around relationships.
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So, uh, I was managing different parts of the business over there, but really just trying to double click into what is.
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A high quality relationship and what are the, the different factors that, that contribute to that.
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And that was the, the genesis of my, my doctorate research.
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And that just set me off on, on the, career trajectory I'm on today.
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I suppose that that knowledge helped me as part of my, my general, general role in, in a client facing role.
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But it led me to Intra Hive, which is a, uh, a software that helps to map and measure the quality of relationships.
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So.
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I'm there at the moment, and in, in the meantime, I've written the book, which we already discussed.
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So, uh, just a really a real passion and, and desire to understand what relationships are in at their heart.
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And, and my, my wife always, uh, raises an, an eyebrow when I'm described as a relationship expert, but I, I always have to say that it's business relationships and then she understands.
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So.
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Well, Ryan, we're, we're really excited to dive into today's segment.
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We're gonna play a little game of buy or sell, uh, today in our call.
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You know, you're, these relationships that you talk, talk about the ones that are central in your book, like you said, business relationships, and a lot of them are about, you know, that, that moment of when we, as you know.
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People who are trying to develop business, trying to grow our businesses, we're always thinking about these relationships and really thinking in terms of like, how do I maximize them?
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How do I keep developing and growing them?
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And you, you lay out beautifully in the book, kind of the role that relationships play in business development and why they're so essential.
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But you know, a lot of people have.
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Other kinds of perspectives.
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And a lot of marketing people, especially on my side of the table, we like to bring other things to the table and say, no, no, you know, relationships are great, but like let's, you know, build the brand, let's build the marketing and stuff like that.
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So today we wanted to present you with three scenarios, kind of three levels of, different moments of the relationship or different kinds of relationships.
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And just ask a few statements, you know, would you buy this or would you sell them.
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And basically, do you agree with it or.
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Do you not agree with it?
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How's that sound?
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Sounds great, and I think, you know, I've done so many of these podcasts now over the years and, uh.
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This is a really fresh, inventive way of doing things and obviously part of my preparation, I was looking at your previous guests and the previous podcast, and you always come up with a, a different way to, to engage the guests.
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So, you know, kudos for that.
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We appreciate it.
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So, Ryan, our our first.
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Our first scenario is about the first contact and first impressions.
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I think this was, this was foundational and kind of gets to the heart of the work and what you wrote about in your book.
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you know, like I mentioned, in, in especially in the marketing world, we live in like this world of automated emails, LinkedIn messages, and there's always a pressure that I think marketers have and salespeople.
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To go out and hunt for new business.
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but your research, the core premise was, you know that there's a lot more, there's a, there's a more powerful or smarter way to, to play this game.
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So we've got some buy or sell questions here, and it's really challenging that conventional spray and pray wisdom, with a relationship first strategy, which you talk about.
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So, Ryan, first one on the list here, buy or sell in today's market.
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A perfectly crafted cold email is still more effective than maybe leveraging a tenuous existing relationship.
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I'd say sell, I think even More so now than ever.
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You've got, like we just discussed, the, the automated messages, whether you per individually, personally crafted, or whether it's done with support from, uh, ai.
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Everybody is being hit with cold outreach and I, I think people just aren't getting to even read it Nowadays.
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You might have a catchy, uh, a catchy sub, title, but then people have now got wise to the ones that trick you into opening the messages as well.
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So tenuous depends how tenuous, I guess the point would be, are they engaging with you?
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What's the context?
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I think there's obviously, there's a context question to a lot of these things, but I would always try to leverage a relationship first and whether that individual is willing, to introduce you like as a warm introduction is one thing.
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'cause that might, not necessarily feel comfortable doing that, but at least they will give you some, what I call, uh.
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Intelligence.
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So they're going to help you understand a bit about the organization, help you understand a bit about the individual who you may be trying to reach out to, maybe be able to introduce you to some other people that might be better placed to.
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to do that introduction.
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So I think for, for all of those reasons, that would be the, the, the pathway I would take.
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And I think, to me, when the request comes on the other side, if you think about the other side of, of, of the, of the equation here, if it's coming from someone who they recognize versus someone, someone, an email coming in cold.
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That's always gonna have the difference as well.
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So you imagine if someone is, even on LinkedIn, if somebody reaches out to me or I recognize the name, I'm always going to read the message.
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So.
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You, you've got a much higher probability that they are going to read what is shared.
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So I think there's a lot more choreographing you need to do around, that process of who is the person who you've identified it's a tenuous relationship with you, or is it tenuous relationship with the person you want an introduction to or both.
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So figure that dynamic out.
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Figure out what they can provide as intelligence and then craft something which is, which is useful if you've got a strong relationship with them, the person you're asking for help, but they have a tenuous relationship with the, the person you're trying to contact.
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That's a slightly different strategy in the messaging as well.
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So it might be a bit more of a, a pitch because you might not have much more time than that, but you can still craft it in a clever way.
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Ryan, your point about LinkedIn specifically, and, uh, I I, I, I think we all get hit with how many cold outreach in messages in LinkedIn every single day, but.
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If I think I even slightly recognize the name in my inbox, at a minimum I'm gonna read the message.
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And if we're just talking about trying to make the connection, if you're already overcoming the bias of just being hit marked spam, delete, whatever it is to showing up, your chances are monumentally increased because otherwise it was zero.
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If they're just gonna delete it, you're never gonna see it.
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And you talk about the deleting thing as a funny story.
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My colleague was joking about today, I don't delete any messages, and she was shocked to see I've got 34,000 unread emails in my mailbox
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You are not a male zero inbox guy.
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I don't even waste time deleting them.
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I just ignore them.
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So.
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Well, I wanna, I wanna move on to, kind, kind of building on that point.
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So, Ryan, buy or sell the value of your relationship network is a tangible asset that can be quantified just like financial or academic capital.
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Oh, well that's definitely a buy, strong buy for me.
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So if you think about capital in, in the true sense of the word, you know, we understand financial capital, we understand, what that means, what have you got in your bank account, what equity in your house, all of these types of things.
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That's the simplest one to understand.
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And then you think about your maybe professional capital if you put it like that.
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So your work experience.
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Where have you worked?
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What skills have you got?
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Uh, what are you bringing to the table that is probably most strongly going to get you in a, in a position career?
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If you're talking professionally, uh, that would what is most important and you've got your academic capital, if you think about it like that.
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But I think at a certain level, certainly in, in, in the professional world, your network is an asset that, is so valuable because if you're going into a role and you are even expected to bring some type of network to the table, depending on the type of role you have, which is fine and I think that is almost implicit, but if we just take a step back and think about.
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How you can leverage a network and it's linked to your first question in some ways because it doesn't matter what you want to do where you want to go or who you want to be.
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If you can access relationships that can give you some intelligence again and some insights and guidance that's worth its weighting gold more, you know, even more than what chat GPT can give you nowadays or whatever else.
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Because if you talk to someone on a human level.
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You, you build a relationship with them, maybe through a tenuous relationship you have.
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Maybe you're just a, a student who wants to get a, an internship or something like that.
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You know, if you start to think about who, where did I want to work?
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what type of company?
00:16:40.201 --> 00:16:42.270
What type of profile, who can I talk to?
00:16:42.510 --> 00:16:48.270
And you leverage that network, it bubbles up, and the universe sort of orientates itself around helping you.
00:16:48.686 --> 00:16:50.605
If you know what you're looking for.
00:16:50.605 --> 00:16:58.283
And then those types of conversations can lead to, uh, insights and support in, in helping you fulfill your dreams.
00:16:58.283 --> 00:17:02.206
And I think a lot of people, overlook that we're all humans.
00:17:02.206 --> 00:17:04.516
And I think that is now going to be.
00:17:05.226 --> 00:17:06.486
Even more prevalent.
00:17:06.486 --> 00:17:15.125
So we, we, we are missing this human connection, but it's, it's easier to have these relationships like we've never met, but I feel like we know you through the preparation and the other stuff.
00:17:15.125 --> 00:17:21.875
So we've got this virtual world where we can build relationships with literally anyone, anyone around the world.
00:17:21.875 --> 00:17:26.174
So I think that network is such a powerful, thing to have.
00:17:26.910 --> 00:17:35.519
And to leverage, whether it's for your own personal gain or whether it's to help someone else or whether it's professionally and, and I think when you're going into a job, this is.
00:17:36.354 --> 00:17:51.317
if you're applying for a role or you know, you're, you're looking for to progress your career and you're having a conversation, trying to pitch yourself in some form or fashion, I would always consider that as well as an asset that you're bringing to the table in those conversations.
00:17:51.317 --> 00:17:57.886
So always think about your network and the relationships you have and, and how that can help you and, and others.
00:17:57.886 --> 00:18:01.846
Obviously, it's not to be so selfish that how can someone help you?
00:18:02.116 --> 00:18:03.662
It doesn't need to be a, a two-way street.
00:18:04.169 --> 00:18:08.098
Yeah, Ryan, so you talked about a couple different categories there of background.
00:18:08.098 --> 00:18:16.858
So you know, your, your resume, your academic background, and then speaking about, um, the networking piece, what would you say to someone that you know.
00:18:16.903 --> 00:18:18.584
They have a great academic background.
00:18:18.584 --> 00:18:26.743
They've, they've got a great resume, but the idea of really expanding on and leveraging their network feels almost daunting for them.
00:18:26.851 --> 00:18:28.721
where's a good place to, to start?
00:18:29.300 --> 00:18:41.721
I think there is this also misconception, uh, around maybe what it, what it takes to build relationships and what, what are trusted relationships.
00:18:41.780 --> 00:18:44.961
So that's obviously part of my research as, as we talked about.
00:18:44.961 --> 00:18:51.681
And there's this cliche of the, the bombastic confident person that that always has an answer for, for every question.
00:18:51.921 --> 00:18:52.911
And very slick.
00:18:53.421 --> 00:18:54.500
And you know, that's great.
00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:55.401
And you see, you know, when you
00:18:55.520 --> 00:18:56.691
I've never been accused of that.
00:18:56.695 --> 00:18:56.895
Ryan.
00:18:57.905 --> 00:18:59.096
We're all looking at Joe right
00:18:59.270 --> 00:18:59.540
Yeah.
00:19:00.770 --> 00:19:06.201
But when you, you see that portrayed on films and, you know, in, in, in that type of environment.
00:19:06.201 --> 00:19:17.570
But the, the reality is when you, the introverts have a great opportunity to build real relationships, as I'd like to call them, because they're more inquisitive.
00:19:17.631 --> 00:19:17.931
They are.
00:19:18.625 --> 00:19:25.525
More likely to ask questions and understand the emotional side of, of what is going on and under the, in the detail.
00:19:25.555 --> 00:19:35.190
So I think if someone is hesitant, like you're suggesting there Mary Blanche, it might be because they don't feel confident enough to, to explore their network.
00:19:35.190 --> 00:19:39.599
But I think the question I'd have is, look, what are you looking to achieve?
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.059
I think that is.
00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:43.079
Primarily it starts.
00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:51.621
So whether it's you're going on holiday to Nice, where I live and you, you, you think, well, you know, who can help me with insights and things to do?
00:19:51.891 --> 00:19:53.121
Who do I know that's there?
00:19:53.121 --> 00:19:58.701
And, and yeah, you might have a friend of yours, you know, just like coincidence that it's coming here next week.
00:19:58.941 --> 00:20:01.070
Oh, funnily enough, I just spoke to a guy that lives there.
00:20:01.070 --> 00:20:02.421
Let me put you in touch with him.
00:20:02.421 --> 00:20:02.721
So.
00:20:03.336 --> 00:20:09.146
Then because of our relationship, we would have that conversation and I, I'd, take care of them as best I could with some tips.
00:20:09.146 --> 00:20:16.076
But whether it's a career path, whether it's some advice or guidance, I think first of all, you need to figure out what are you looking for.
00:20:16.676 --> 00:20:17.876
Then who can help you?
00:20:17.876 --> 00:20:21.297
And you will always be surprised how willing people are to help.
00:20:21.297 --> 00:20:25.826
I think it's in people's general nature to want to help you feel good.
00:20:26.037 --> 00:20:34.196
Even when you give to the homeless, there's a selfish sense to it that you, you feel like you're doing something nice to someone else and you get a, you get a buzz of adrenaline from that.
00:20:34.196 --> 00:20:36.731
So all of that, I think to say that, uh.
00:20:37.497 --> 00:20:42.446
Prioritize on what the objective is and then start talking to people.
00:20:42.446 --> 00:20:53.217
And I think when you, when you maize this, this, uh, idea of what you want, often, like I said before, the universe can, uh, orientate itself around helping you.
00:20:54.201 --> 00:20:54.491
Just.
00:20:54.987 --> 00:21:00.446
All right, Ryan, I've got one more on this topic of, you know, first contact, first impressions.
00:21:00.446 --> 00:21:06.730
Let's say that you finally get that initial meeting with somebody that you know, you want to be talking to them.
00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:09.863
They're, uh, a prospect or they're a person of interest for you.
00:21:10.282 --> 00:21:11.231
buy or sell.
00:21:11.352 --> 00:21:18.162
The number one goal of every initial meeting with a new prospect is to get a second meeting.
00:21:19.332 --> 00:21:23.741
Yeah, buy, I'd say, yeah, strong buy again, that is the priority.
00:21:23.741 --> 00:21:24.797
And, and how do you do that?
00:21:25.856 --> 00:21:35.126
It's not about telling them what you have to offer, it's about convincing them you can help them solve their problems or achieve their objectives.
00:21:35.126 --> 00:21:38.426
That's really what a real relationship is about.
00:21:38.426 --> 00:21:41.666
And I'll call back to some of the interviews I did for my doctorate.
00:21:41.666 --> 00:21:46.317
My doctorate research was interviewing CXOs, you know, very, very senior people.
00:21:46.317 --> 00:21:52.106
Some of these people worked, uh, like CIO at JP Morgan or Amex or bp.
00:21:52.849 --> 00:21:57.319
of these people were literally had billions of dollars in spend per year.
00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.119
You know, others, hundreds of millions.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:04.613
So they know what it's like to meet someone when someone's meeting them for the first time.
00:22:05.228 --> 00:22:11.686
When I asked them to describe the best person they've ever worked with from the supplier or vendor side and what made them so special.
00:22:11.686 --> 00:22:13.757
And we just talked about that.
00:22:13.817 --> 00:22:16.951
And that was my data set for my, doctorate research.
00:22:16.951 --> 00:22:18.330
And I looked for patterns there.
00:22:18.540 --> 00:22:28.990
And what we found is that almost across the board, they never really, understood or acknowledged that this person was trying to sell them anything.
00:22:29.576 --> 00:22:31.286
The very best of the best.
00:22:31.286 --> 00:22:37.796
We're only trying to help them solve their problem, understand their business, see around corners, all this stuff.
00:22:37.796 --> 00:22:45.785
So it's about, you know, it's a cliche again, of the trusted advisor, but, and I've got the book behind me there, the famous book about the, the trust equation.
00:22:45.845 --> 00:22:46.204
So.
00:22:46.805 --> 00:22:47.884
We know this stuff.
00:22:47.914 --> 00:22:55.144
We, we see this stuff a lot, but living it and breathing it is a lot more difficult than it sounds, even though the principles are easy.
00:22:55.144 --> 00:22:58.474
So if you want to be successful in selling, don't sell.
00:22:58.535 --> 00:23:01.355
You know, it sounds a bit counterintuitive.
00:23:01.565 --> 00:23:03.940
You have to serve, you have to understand, you have to put the effort in.
00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:11.450
Before you even walk in the door for that meeting, you need to have had five meetings with people that know that person, understand their priorities.
00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:16.104
So when you walk in, it's not a question of, uh, what's keeping you awake at night?
00:23:16.253 --> 00:23:25.433
And as, as one of those guys I interviewed said, if somebody comes in and asks me that question, I throw them outta my office because they should already know what keeps me awake at night.
00:23:25.433 --> 00:23:30.183
And they should be coming in to talk about that and what challenges and opportunities they're seeing to solve.
00:23:30.828 --> 00:23:31.308
Problem.
00:23:31.308 --> 00:23:34.134
So yeah, I think that's probably the easiest way to do it.
00:23:34.625 --> 00:23:35.375
I love that.
00:23:35.855 --> 00:23:41.195
All right, Joe, we've got a different scenario here, kind of taking a, taking a turn in a different different direction.
00:23:41.226 --> 00:23:41.796
What do you got?
00:23:41.855 --> 00:23:42.125
Yeah.
00:23:42.425 --> 00:23:49.415
Uh, a direction that is near and dear to the professional services marketer and business development at heart, the RFP.
00:23:50.435 --> 00:23:57.816
Our dear old friend with occasional benefits For many companies, you know, it's the call to arms.
00:23:57.816 --> 00:23:59.556
It's the reason to burn the midnight oil.
00:23:59.556 --> 00:24:04.175
It put together a massive hulking document that drives us all insane.
00:24:04.481 --> 00:24:07.759
but Ryan, you've got a more provocative take on the RFP.
00:24:08.269 --> 00:24:12.108
It has come across in the content we've read your book and, and also some other materials.
00:24:12.528 --> 00:24:15.499
Uh, you've argued that the moment a business receives one.
00:24:15.903 --> 00:24:18.544
Especially outta the blue, you should act with some caution.
00:24:18.874 --> 00:24:20.794
You should say, hold on, let's take a second here.
00:24:21.483 --> 00:24:23.314
There's a good chance it might even be too late.
00:24:23.726 --> 00:24:32.786
so this round of buy or sell is about separating winnable opportunities from the wasted efforts by looking beyond an RFP document itself.
00:24:33.296 --> 00:24:33.711
You're up for this one.
00:24:34.355 --> 00:24:34.776
I am.
00:24:34.776 --> 00:24:35.796
Yeah, let's do it.
00:24:36.385 --> 00:24:37.885
All right, buy or sell.
00:24:38.096 --> 00:24:49.046
If an RFP comes in for a company you've never worked with out of the blue, your best move is to ignore it unless you have an existing relationship with a decision maker.
00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:54.161
I would say, yeah, if it's, I would say that's a buy.
00:24:54.221 --> 00:24:55.270
Yeah, buy that one.
00:24:55.444 --> 00:24:57.694
so then there's the immediate follow up question.
00:24:57.845 --> 00:24:59.795
How do you explain that to leadership?
00:24:59.974 --> 00:25:04.595
Because they might see this and say, I see six figures, seven figures.
00:25:04.924 --> 00:25:06.605
I think we should go after it.
00:25:06.605 --> 00:25:09.154
So Ryan, tell me why we need to convince leadership.
00:25:09.349 --> 00:25:12.170
There May I, and I, I will put a caveat there.
00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:17.269
So like, if it's a decision between buy or sell, my decision is buy.
00:25:17.569 --> 00:25:20.208
There's a caveat there, Maybe you just ignore it.
00:25:20.208 --> 00:25:23.653
But if you're talking about leadership, this one's just come in, what are we gonna do?
00:25:23.952 --> 00:25:25.002
How busy are you?
00:25:25.063 --> 00:25:25.962
You know, these are the top.
00:25:25.968 --> 00:25:29.353
If you, if you, if you're, if you're hungry for business, that's, that's fine.
00:25:29.653 --> 00:25:31.423
If you're very busy, swamped.
00:25:31.962 --> 00:25:34.182
Have you got the resources to adequately respond?
00:25:34.182 --> 00:25:38.262
I mean, when I was, I mentioned Infosys before, but that's the same across the industry.
00:25:38.262 --> 00:25:41.472
For us to respond to an RFP would cost over a million dollars.
00:25:42.553 --> 00:25:42.942
Yeah.
00:25:43.107 --> 00:25:46.107
how much you would be investing to go through and not win.
00:25:46.317 --> 00:25:56.298
So, so, and obviously for SAT companies, like where I'm at now with, in Introhive, it's a lot of a smaller investment, but we're a smaller company, so the principle still holds true.
00:25:56.898 --> 00:26:03.709
Uh, so I guess with AI as well, how easy it is to complete that RFP, but it is not about the process of completing it.
00:26:03.949 --> 00:26:06.019
It's like, what's the probability of winning?
00:26:06.419 --> 00:26:07.451
there's a caveat to.
00:26:08.105 --> 00:26:12.982
what I'm about to say is that the purpose of responding to an RFP is to win the, win the deal.
00:26:12.982 --> 00:26:23.512
But I guess a, a caveat to that is if it's a company that is specifically in your ICP, maybe you've never worked with them because,
00:26:23.557 --> 00:26:23.962
There you go.
00:26:24.653 --> 00:26:31.222
so then you've got an opportunity to create some new relationships, to build some relationships, haven't you?
00:26:31.222 --> 00:26:32.992
Through this, yes.
00:26:32.992 --> 00:26:36.563
Assuming you're going to fail, but that's just the start of.
00:26:37.597 --> 00:26:42.397
Uh, future RFPs, maybe you'll fail 2, 3, 4, 5 in a row.
00:26:42.397 --> 00:26:43.688
But then you're on a path.
00:26:44.077 --> 00:26:47.768
You've, they've seen your, how you operate, they've seen the quality of your responses.
00:26:47.768 --> 00:27:01.178
So if you're looking at it more of a long term perspective, strategic perspective to, to crack that must have logo, then there's some, some considerations to say, well let, let's at least give it a go.
00:27:01.178 --> 00:27:11.978
And I think if on that point as well, what I often talk about is if it does come out of the blue, you would obviously be very, very quickly be able to identify who the key people are.
00:27:11.978 --> 00:27:13.928
There are some scenarios like maybe.
00:27:14.288 --> 00:27:22.718
That's a competitor to one of your clients and you've delivered sort of a groundbreaking, innovative solution for their competitor.
00:27:22.807 --> 00:27:29.063
Somebody moves over to that Untaped account that you haven't got any relationships with yet.
00:27:29.063 --> 00:27:34.806
They've talked about what you've done, and that's why you've got the RFP land in your inbox.
00:27:35.707 --> 00:27:42.970
there's a few caveats, as I say, as to all, all of the complexities of it, but it does lead all roles lead back to the relationship.
00:27:42.970 --> 00:27:50.079
So in the scenario just described, someone might have moved over, mentioned you, or they might have seen what you've done and want to engage you.
00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:59.289
So then it's a question of doing the analysis on that target account, figuring out has anyone moved from any of your key clients to this, this prospect?
00:27:59.545 --> 00:28:02.664
Figuring out if they're willing to engage with you as well.
00:28:02.664 --> 00:28:07.488
If, you can't pick up anyone in particular, you know who the decision makers are likely to be.
00:28:07.488 --> 00:28:08.867
So engage with'em.
00:28:08.934 --> 00:28:11.500
do they show some love, willing to engage?
00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:19.096
If they completely ignore you, then I think that would be the due diligence management would look for to then say, right, fair enough.
00:28:19.096 --> 00:28:20.356
Maybe we pass on this one.
00:28:20.951 --> 00:28:29.891
I'm already thinking, Ryan, of the, the top 10 checklist when you receive an RFP blog that you and I can co-write coming out of this because everything you're saying really resonates with me.
00:28:29.891 --> 00:28:37.961
As the reviewer in chief of any RFPs that we receive, uh, there's always the due diligence piece that needs to happen.
00:28:37.961 --> 00:28:44.621
So maybe it's not just ignore the RFP, but you need to think to yourself, okay, does this check the right boxes?
00:28:45.165 --> 00:28:46.016
correct Jeff.
00:28:46.155 --> 00:28:46.931
I'm up for that.
00:28:47.290 --> 00:28:51.915
I love what Ryan is saying too, about just like the relationship building aspect that can be kind of.
00:28:52.736 --> 00:29:04.029
Part of the opportunity of responding to an RFP Joe, I'm thinking of a story of an RFP that we responded to, that we lost, and it was actually with a person or a group that we had.
00:29:04.089 --> 00:29:06.579
We had built a pretty decent relationship with them ahead of time.
00:29:06.579 --> 00:29:07.960
We had actually even helped them.
00:29:08.295 --> 00:29:09.285
Build the RFP
00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:10.345
Oh yeah.
00:29:10.515 --> 00:29:19.119
and we, and we thought that that was kind of, you know, oh, if we're helping build the RFP, that's kind of like a lock that we, you know, we're gonna be making the final cut at least.
00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:20.601
Um, but didn't win it.
00:29:21.050 --> 00:29:28.681
But what happened on the back end of that is that that team of people, have still remained closer relationships with us.
00:29:28.681 --> 00:29:32.730
And we've started to get, you know, 3, 4, 5 years down the road.
00:29:33.685 --> 00:29:43.675
Opportunities and referrals from this group, even though they didn't select us, the value we provided during that process that they went through, they still think very highly of Joe and our team.
00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:51.810
and I just think that there's a lot to what you're saying, Ryan, about even an RFP, which can feel a little bit more like cold and dry and formal.
00:29:51.961 --> 00:29:54.631
There's still that relationship building opportunity behind that.
00:29:55.290 --> 00:30:06.750
I think there's a, yeah, again, in the old days, I say old as in pre COVID, you would get a lot more opportunity to meet, ideally, unless it's a government type of, uh, RFP, where they lock a lot of that down.
00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:12.361
But you would get those chances to have the, have some in initial conversation.
00:30:12.361 --> 00:30:23.790
I think since the, the, to more of an online, it's a bit more difficult, I think, at least initially in those, in those round, if you say with an RFP or an RFI.
00:30:23.790 --> 00:30:27.718
So they would be looking more of the, data in the document.
00:30:27.748 --> 00:30:35.073
But again, if they want you to take this seriously, they will engage with you outside of that process.
00:30:35.073 --> 00:30:36.603
That is a LIMUS test for me.
00:30:37.563 --> 00:30:42.452
If they're giving you a bit of time, doesn't need to be all the, the secrets to win under the table.
00:30:42.452 --> 00:30:46.022
So, but at least they need to show some indication that look.
00:30:46.558 --> 00:30:47.827
we're engaging with you a bit.
00:30:47.827 --> 00:30:52.208
We are showing you that we, we like you, we want you to, uh, to take this seriously.
00:30:53.407 --> 00:30:57.307
Uh, that is on, uh, that checklist I was referencing for our future blog.
00:30:57.428 --> 00:31:05.949
Uh, it is, will they exchange Minimum a Q and A process, but really a lot of times, will they hop on a zoom?
00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:11.138
Will they look at us in the face and talk to us and say, this is what this is, this is how we found you.
00:31:11.138 --> 00:31:12.308
Things along those lines.
00:31:12.578 --> 00:31:15.699
If there's none of that, it's an instant No, thank you.
00:31:15.699 --> 00:31:17.048
From, from my perspective.
00:31:17.273 --> 00:31:27.413
another aspect to this is like back to the intelligence gathering component I mentioned, which is, prevalent in all of these scenarios is look who do you know that works there?
00:31:27.502 --> 00:31:32.272
Not the decision makers, but what's the vibe, what's the competitor landscape?
00:31:32.303 --> 00:31:35.498
You know, even who used to work there, who is a contact?
00:31:35.498 --> 00:31:41.288
So then they might be more willing to share even more details than they would if they're actually an employee there.
00:31:41.292 --> 00:31:41.413
So.
00:31:42.211 --> 00:31:48.962
that helps with a bit of a dynamic understanding of, the landscape in the organization as well.
00:31:49.877 --> 00:31:50.238
Okay.
00:31:50.508 --> 00:31:51.137
I love it.
00:31:51.288 --> 00:31:55.008
I, I've got another one here coming up that I think is another interesting one.
00:31:55.008 --> 00:32:00.377
Especially if we think, okay, well this might make it easier for us to respond, but buy or sell.
00:32:01.337 --> 00:32:11.837
A strong track record of success and a high quality solution that matches the requirements are enough to win an RFP even if there are no internal supporters.
00:32:13.604 --> 00:32:15.335
I would say sell on that one.
00:32:15.845 --> 00:32:24.964
I don't think you can win a deal because whatever's on paper, on PowerPoint slides, they need to look people in the eye.
00:32:24.964 --> 00:32:27.365
It depends what type of solution you're dealing with.
00:32:27.365 --> 00:32:30.605
I mean, look, I'm talking B2B high value.
00:32:30.930 --> 00:32:39.990
You know, very mission critical type of solutions, and we all go to Amazon or wherever and buy some stuff online without meeting anyone.
00:32:39.990 --> 00:32:52.750
But, uh, if you're talking about something where there is an element of, critical impact on their business, put it that way in a sort of a broad umbrella term, it, it, it needs to work well for them.
00:32:53.507 --> 00:32:57.517
to function as an organization, then there has to be trust.
00:32:57.517 --> 00:33:04.152
There has to be looking someone in the eye and saying, right, I can trust this person'cause it is a people business in the end.
00:33:04.152 --> 00:33:09.642
And, and no matter, even in the SaaS world, it's, there's a SaaS solution that you are delivering.
00:33:09.942 --> 00:33:12.372
But I know on the professional services side.
00:33:13.481 --> 00:33:19.662
Always a person at the end of that dollar of, or a pound or euro of revenue.
00:33:19.662 --> 00:33:22.031
There's a, there's a relationship on both sides.
00:33:22.538 --> 00:33:31.478
So I think, it's very unlikely that someone would be willing to go to that level of, of awarding business without having any relationships outta thought.
00:33:32.962 --> 00:33:34.853
Hinges research would agree with you.
00:33:34.853 --> 00:33:40.252
In our, we actually have an ongoing initiative called Inside the Buyer's Brain, where we ask these types of questions.
00:33:40.282 --> 00:33:47.992
And the number one scale tipper, if you will, a deciding factor if you will, uh, was existing relationships.
00:33:48.338 --> 00:33:53.040
so above things like relevant experience, talented staff, knowledge of the industry.
00:33:53.911 --> 00:33:55.695
well, I'll tell you a funny story.
00:33:55.965 --> 00:33:58.155
Well, not a funny story, but it's an anecdote from my book.
00:33:58.155 --> 00:33:59.115
I was talking, uh.
00:33:59.971 --> 00:34:04.681
As one of my clients is at one of the, uh, the global head of sales enablement at one of the big four.
00:34:05.310 --> 00:34:06.691
And, you know, we were just chatting.
00:34:06.691 --> 00:34:08.851
He did an endorsement for the book as well, actually.
00:34:08.851 --> 00:34:18.481
But through that conversation he was saying, we've done all the analysis of our deals and they, you know, you're talking about billion dollar deals down to tens of millions or what have you.
00:34:18.481 --> 00:34:21.990
So we've done is that we've done the analysis, we know why we win.
00:34:22.471 --> 00:34:24.721
It's always because of our relationship.
00:34:25.304 --> 00:34:28.034
And then he said, and we've done the analysis as well.
00:34:28.034 --> 00:34:29.385
We know why we lose.
00:34:29.775 --> 00:34:37.034
It's not because of price or solution, it's because of the relationship and that I just thought that was so profound and it, it is.
00:34:37.034 --> 00:34:38.414
It's really the bonsai.
00:34:38.623 --> 00:34:38.952
All right.
00:34:38.952 --> 00:34:39.492
Well.
00:34:40.117 --> 00:34:42.637
gonna transition us straight into our next scenario here.
00:34:42.637 --> 00:34:48.211
Mary Blanche, do you wanna introduce this one because it's right on par with what Ryan is talking about?
00:34:48.907 --> 00:34:49.956
Yeah, it's a good segue.
00:34:49.956 --> 00:34:53.347
So this last scenario is gonna be around building trust.
00:34:53.766 --> 00:34:58.086
Uh, so as we know, every firm wants to be a trusted partner.
00:34:58.297 --> 00:34:59.831
It is the ultimate goal.
00:35:00.614 --> 00:35:02.172
but you know, what does that really mean?
00:35:02.233 --> 00:35:06.943
Is it just a buzzword or is it a tangible competitive advantage?
00:35:07.483 --> 00:35:17.202
So Ryan, your work identifies three distinct types of B2B relationships, and your doctoral research with Fortune 500 executives has broken down.
00:35:17.202 --> 00:35:22.193
What constitutes a high quality trusted relationship into science.
00:35:22.943 --> 00:35:25.882
Uh, so this round is gonna be all about exploring the long game.
00:35:25.972 --> 00:35:37.733
You know, what does it truly take to build that kind of a deep collaborative trust that can't really easily be replicated by a competitor and how that trust ultimately drives success.
00:35:38.753 --> 00:35:48.773
So your first buy or sell is gonna be the most important asset an organization has, is its relationship, not its brand.
00:35:50.862 --> 00:35:54.043
I think depends on, depends on the context and you might have a different view here.
00:35:54.043 --> 00:35:58.302
But if I'm looking at a company today, You talk about the Pareto rule.
00:35:58.302 --> 00:36:02.652
So you know, 80% of the revenue comes from 20% of their clients.
00:36:02.652 --> 00:36:13.452
And in the professional services world, I've had clients say to me jokingly, 99% of our revenue comes from 1% of our clients with the long tail of projects.
00:36:13.963 --> 00:36:18.193
So if you think about the value of the company, it's based on the revenue.
00:36:18.282 --> 00:36:22.440
And to me, the revenue is linked to those relationships.
00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:23.090
at the end of.
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.693
Those services that you're delivering is a person.
00:36:26.693 --> 00:36:33.061
So I think it's about the relationships that you have that hold those accounts together.
00:36:33.121 --> 00:36:35.222
Obviously the broader story there.
00:36:36.016 --> 00:36:37.213
Is that people leave.
00:36:37.213 --> 00:36:43.452
There's a big attrition across all industries, so it can't be reliant on specific individuals.
00:36:43.782 --> 00:36:54.853
So I guess the way that that organization brings people in and helps them to manage people, that will be part of the enablement, onboarding, the mindset of the people they hire.
00:36:54.853 --> 00:37:00.733
So you assume that there's some type of filtering process that goes on to hire the right type of people.
00:37:01.842 --> 00:37:09.304
That could maybe bubble up to the brand in some sort of abstract way, I guess, talking, as a, as a salesperson.
00:37:09.304 --> 00:37:17.123
But my immediate, reaction to that would be, uh, the, the relationship is the important aspect when it comes to the value.
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.340
I can't remember if that was, is that a buyer or a sell on the question?
00:37:20.340 --> 00:37:20.701
So.
00:37:20.925 --> 00:37:25.896
You, you're, you are buying relationships as being more important than brands.
00:37:25.896 --> 00:37:30.635
And I, I, I think the last piece that you said Ryan really resonates with, at least from hinges perspective.
00:37:31.101 --> 00:37:34.641
in the professional services we define brand strength, if you will.
00:37:34.990 --> 00:37:52.347
As the intersection of your reputation and visibility if your reputation is as a group that develops relationships, cultivates them over time, delivers excellent service and grows from within, then I, could see a brand built on relationship building is as one that is a strong one.
00:37:52.807 --> 00:37:57.547
Yeah, and I'd maybe have a crossover there with culture, company culture.
00:37:57.547 --> 00:37:58.682
So you've got that.
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.922
Is how they organize themselves.
00:38:01.981 --> 00:38:04.802
And that becomes part of the brand, I guess.
00:38:05.192 --> 00:38:06.331
And I'm no expert.
00:38:06.331 --> 00:38:08.371
You're more the experts on the brand side.
00:38:08.371 --> 00:38:16.893
But yeah, I think they do bleed together there, but it's what culture do you have as an organization and then you hire the right type of people that, that deliver that.
00:38:16.893 --> 00:38:21.302
And I think you mentioned at the beginning, Joe, about what do you say to the management about.
00:38:21.708 --> 00:38:22.217
Revenue.
00:38:22.217 --> 00:38:29.418
And I think there is a question to, to Mary Blanche's point at the beginning is around the beginning of your segment around long term.
00:38:29.748 --> 00:38:39.768
Because as we may all appreciate the relationships that I have today, I've built over my career and I'll carry them to wherever I go in my career.
00:38:39.797 --> 00:38:43.938
Back to the, uh, relationship capital point in your network, so.
00:38:44.402 --> 00:38:49.262
You as an individual are thinking like, this is me, this is my relationship.
00:38:49.262 --> 00:38:57.304
And obviously in the professional service world, you get people moving around and maybe taking, their black book these, the virtual black book nowadays.
00:38:57.304 --> 00:39:05.523
So there's an element of thinking long term for you personally, but there's the short term thinking at an organizational level, quarter to quarter.
00:39:06.153 --> 00:39:08.134
And this is where the two worlds collide.
00:39:08.134 --> 00:39:12.393
So if you have got a culture of Look, we need to just sell and that pressure.
00:39:13.023 --> 00:39:28.684
Emanates through you, uh, and the team to the client, and they're feeling this pressure to buy the services, then it's very hard to build a trusted long-term relationship because they'll just put you in the bucket as just another sales.
00:39:29.284 --> 00:39:33.063
Company or just another individual that just wants to sell us more stuff.
00:39:33.603 --> 00:39:37.791
So there's a paradox there, which I think I don't have the answer to, I'm afraid.
00:39:37.791 --> 00:39:42.840
But, uh, there, there's something that is an issue I think that, all companies will face.
00:39:43.045 --> 00:39:47.996
Okay, well, I think that's a good segue into our next buy or sell.
00:39:48.356 --> 00:39:58.106
So moving from a transactional relationship to a trusted integrated one is the single most important objective for a B2B organization.
00:40:00.014 --> 00:40:01.248
yeah, that's a tough one.
00:40:01.411 --> 00:40:01.891
I'll just.
00:40:02.456 --> 00:40:30.157
So maybe I'd, I'd err on the sell if I had to choose between the two, because not every client can be a strategic client, and if you're being so definitive, like that's the only way to go, I think in the B2B world, in the, Professional services world, if you're speaking broadly, and you're targeting your ICP properly, you would consider that most of those would be candidates for the toughest strategic, integrated relationship you're looking for.
00:40:30.157 --> 00:40:33.277
So in that scenario, maybe that is the ultimate.
00:40:33.681 --> 00:40:47.817
Journey you want to take them on, but not all companies fit into that bracket so broadly and not all, uh, suppliers, would want to target their entire ICP in that way.
00:40:48.297 --> 00:40:52.570
And, then on the, client side, they might not see you like that.
00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:56.650
They might not want to engage with you'cause there's an effort from their side as well.
00:40:57.505 --> 00:41:00.235
To move to a more strategic relationship.
00:41:00.295 --> 00:41:02.155
So it depends on what you're offering.
00:41:02.155 --> 00:41:12.896
You might have some great vision of how you want a strategic relationship with this fantastic company, but they're thinking, right, we only want to buy these widgets from you, or A, B, and C.
00:41:13.436 --> 00:41:20.485
So, you know, that's, that's the relationship level that you're at, unfortunately, even though it might even be your biggest client.
00:41:21.311 --> 00:41:26.501
You are just a tiny spoke in the wheel for them, so you've got a lot of things to consider.
00:41:26.501 --> 00:41:31.668
So long way to say sell, if I had to be, if it's a definitive uh, choice.
00:41:32.193 --> 00:41:33.663
Well, that's part of the fun of the question.
00:41:33.797 --> 00:41:33.858
Yeah.
00:41:35.103 --> 00:41:40.054
I hear what you're saying about qualifying it based off of, you know, who your clients are and what industry you're a part of.
00:41:40.757 --> 00:41:42.458
earlier you mentioned the big four.
00:41:42.813 --> 00:41:57.442
this is something that we see a lot happening right now in the accounting, and CPA industry is a lot of firms are sort of doing a repositioning right now, not just in terms of providing CPA services, but also providing advisory.
00:41:57.681 --> 00:42:05.121
We've had a number of clients even that have rebranded to include advisors or advisory in their name or in the handle of their, their website.
00:42:05.375 --> 00:42:07.077
do you think that that aligns with kind of.
00:42:07.128 --> 00:42:14.777
What you speak about often in the book is sort of trying that desire to move from that transactional relationship to a more integrated one.
00:42:14.777 --> 00:42:18.153
So in some industries, essentially it's imperative, I guess.
00:42:18.853 --> 00:42:23.574
Yeah, I think it is that survival die type of, uh, scenario.
00:42:23.574 --> 00:42:29.989
So there's there's a great, uh, lady I referenced in my book and she actually did the introduction to chapter nine, Heidi Gardner.
00:42:29.989 --> 00:42:31.420
So she's a Harvard professor.
00:42:31.871 --> 00:42:37.436
She spent her career analyzing this specific subject actually around how do you.
00:42:38.407 --> 00:42:42.945
enable clients to transition them into these high growth accounts?
00:42:42.945 --> 00:42:49.186
And it's about the number of service lines that you can, that you're, you're, that they're buying from you, should we put it that way?
00:42:49.186 --> 00:42:58.813
So I think you've got to, to understand what offerings you have and the broader, that seems to be the strategy, this one firm approach.
00:42:58.813 --> 00:43:01.038
So it doesn't necessarily me need to be like a.
00:43:02.202 --> 00:43:05.532
PWC or Deloitte, KPMG, everything for everyone.
00:43:05.532 --> 00:43:15.311
But you may have auxiliary services in your own area of specialty, and then you're trying to build out that specific niche, uh, if you will.
00:43:15.311 --> 00:43:24.820
So yeah, I think they, you do need to think about what other types of services go with your type of skillset for the type of clients you're working on.
00:43:24.820 --> 00:43:26.831
So definitely, yeah, that's an important point.
00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:27.490
And.
00:43:28.318 --> 00:43:29.489
We all need to grow, don't we?
00:43:29.489 --> 00:43:31.289
So how are you going to grow?
00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:38.099
It's either sell more stuff to, to, to, to the same or more clients or sell different stuff to, to the same clients.
00:43:38.099 --> 00:43:41.518
So, uh, but there's, it's, it's, it's not easy.
00:43:41.518 --> 00:43:53.878
I think you've got to, you've, it's got to be, uh, it's, it's got, to me, especially if you're in a smaller firm, is, is you've got to have some uniqueness to what you're proposing.
00:43:53.909 --> 00:43:56.548
And there's so many examples of firms just.
00:43:57.539 --> 00:44:04.168
Getting big and then buying some other types of air businesses that are not really related to them.
00:44:04.168 --> 00:44:16.559
And, and it, it failing drastically because your, your, your focus changes and the energy fo ch goes onto these other maybe shiny new things and you lose sight of what you're actually good at.
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:25.148
So I think it's for brighter minds than me to determine like individual company strategies, but I think it's, uh, it's certainly something that.
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.989
That all companies are considering.
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:30.123
I think that's well said.
00:44:30.193 --> 00:44:33.342
so Brian, we have, we have one last buy or sell for you and.
00:44:33.865 --> 00:44:34.909
I personally love this one.
00:44:35.298 --> 00:44:40.909
Uh, so buy or sell trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.
00:44:41.563 --> 00:44:44.594
Yeah, that's definitely a strong, strong buy for me.
00:44:44.851 --> 00:44:46.771
I mean, we've touched on this a few times, but.
00:44:47.590 --> 00:44:53.670
there's a phase that I talk about in my book and the doctorate is from not knowing someone to them trusting you.
00:44:54.510 --> 00:44:56.923
There's this phase that, that I, talked about in the ary.
00:44:56.923 --> 00:44:58.364
It's called mutual disclosure.
00:44:58.364 --> 00:45:09.186
So it's when you are, you're first meeting someone and do they consider you just to be, you know, some other person or are they willing to, treat you a bit differently?
00:45:09.246 --> 00:45:19.288
Are they willing To open up about what they're working on, invest emotionally in the relationship because they believe you can help them with their problems.
00:45:19.288 --> 00:45:22.637
And, that that phase is the beginning of trust.
00:45:22.757 --> 00:45:25.842
So There's a three things actually that I talk about in the book.
00:45:25.842 --> 00:45:29.835
One of them is don't sell, which we've talked about already.
00:45:29.925 --> 00:45:31.695
And that is very, very important.
00:45:31.695 --> 00:45:39.219
If they can sense you're trying to sell, you cannot build a trusted relationship with someone because they think you're out for your own personal gain.
00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:45.045
The second one is a bit more of a difficult one, to comprehend, I guess is the, clash of personalities.
00:45:45.045 --> 00:45:50.168
So when I did those interviews, people talked about it's very difficult to get on with someone.
00:45:50.538 --> 00:45:52.067
if personalities clash.
00:45:52.067 --> 00:46:05.005
And, so it's hard if you, if, if there's a power balance and you are trying to build a relationship with someone and it's not, you can't do anything about the way you behave naturally, but if you are irritating them.
00:46:05.769 --> 00:46:08.110
Then it's wise for you to understand that.
00:46:08.139 --> 00:46:16.157
And there's, I talk about it in the book as well, where your listeners can go to YouTube to find out about what I call, uh, what's called, uh, social styles.
00:46:16.157 --> 00:46:22.007
You can, you can profile someone's personality, and then it gives you a bit of do's and dumps.
00:46:22.036 --> 00:46:23.416
So if someone's a driver.
00:46:23.942 --> 00:46:26.822
They are interested in outcomes and benefits.
00:46:26.882 --> 00:46:29.641
They're not interested in small talk and what do you do at the weekend?
00:46:29.641 --> 00:46:31.501
So that will irritate them.
00:46:31.501 --> 00:46:34.981
But I'm a bit more small talk chitchat to get to know someone.
00:46:34.981 --> 00:46:44.612
But if you're dealing with a driver and you spend five, 10 minutes talking about what you did at the weekend, they will become irritated very quickly and think you're wasting their time.
00:46:45.092 --> 00:46:47.282
So again, that's important.
00:46:47.282 --> 00:46:52.170
And the third one is you need to have something of value, which is back to the the original point, which is.
00:46:52.485 --> 00:46:53.474
What are they working on?
00:46:53.474 --> 00:46:54.434
What's important?
00:46:54.554 --> 00:46:55.485
How can you help them?
00:46:55.485 --> 00:47:03.014
So that comes back to the research that you've done, the intelligence gathering and how you come prepared for that conversation.
00:47:03.014 --> 00:47:14.166
So if you do those three things together and it works well, you've got a good chance that they'll open up and start to share some of the things that they think are important.
00:47:14.376 --> 00:47:20.317
And then you're on a pathway to a few, few more drops of, uh, of trust in, in the buckets.
00:47:20.775 --> 00:47:21.344
I love that.
00:47:21.344 --> 00:47:24.195
Well, Ryan, I, I think I speak on behalf of the whole team here.
00:47:24.253 --> 00:47:28.621
just preparing for this interview and, and, and getting to speak and listen to you.
00:47:28.978 --> 00:47:36.418
I'm coming away with kind of a refreshed, uh, vision for how we can build and, and kind of develop better relationships and our business.
00:47:36.418 --> 00:47:39.418
And I know our listening audience will, will feel similarly.
00:47:39.710 --> 00:47:43.119
Ryan, where can people follow you or get in touch with you?
00:47:43.300 --> 00:47:44.269
or intro hive?
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.449
Yeah, so I'm pretty much on LinkedIn.
00:47:47.449 --> 00:47:51.170
That's, that's where I place my bets if there, if that's the right phrase.
00:47:51.170 --> 00:47:52.969
But yeah, so contact me on LinkedIn.
00:47:52.969 --> 00:47:55.820
Happy to connect and continue the conversation.
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:56.960
Intra hive.
00:47:57.489 --> 00:48:07.090
Through me if you'd like, or just through the website directly, if you want to hear a bit more about, uh, this software that helps you to, to understand and measure a map relationship.
00:48:07.090 --> 00:48:12.699
So I think that is, uh, as we've talked about, that is a company's most valuable asset are their relationships.
00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:20.739
So understanding who has them and, and how you can leverage them as an organization and collaborate better, I think is, is crucial in today's market.
00:48:21.195 --> 00:48:24.974
Totally agree and, and for anyone who didn't, uh, catch it.
00:48:25.304 --> 00:48:30.614
Ryan's book is also available on Amazon everywhere where they, uh, sell books.
00:48:30.614 --> 00:48:35.235
Building B2B relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key relationships.
00:48:36.034 --> 00:48:39.034
Yeah, I put it back, I, I missed a tagline there.
00:48:39.574 --> 00:48:45.125
Building B2B relationships, how to identify, map, and develop key relationships to win more business.
00:48:45.125 --> 00:48:45.664
There it is.
00:48:46.025 --> 00:48:48.065
Uh, well, Ryan, thanks for your time today.
00:48:48.175 --> 00:48:48.875
we really enjoyed it.
00:48:50.164 --> 00:48:50.795
pleasure.