Recap & Rebuttals Part 20 (Ep 90-94) Soviet Union with Larry Hancock

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[SPEAKER_00]: Today we're joined once again by author and researcher Larry Hancock as we review the series on the Soviet Union.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Larry's known as someone who is steeped in the documents and is committed to only the most solid evidence and he's not afraid to say it if he doesn't agree with what everybody else in the critical research community is saying about something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Larry's a board member of the Mary Feral Foundation, a major online interactive history archive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's written many books, including ones on the political assassinations of the 1960s, like killing King, the awful grace of God, someone would have talked,
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[SPEAKER_00]: and tipping point, the conspiracy that murdered President John Kennedy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: His most recent book, The Oswald Puzzle, Reconsidering Lee Harvey Oswald, is out now with a second edition on the way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, Larry is here to help us recap the five-part series on the Soviet Union as a potential culprit in the JFK assassination.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Coming up next, on Solving JFK.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In Dallas, Texas, three shots were fired at President Kennedy's motorcade in downtown Dallas.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The first reports say that President Kennedy has been seriously wounded by this shooting.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The flash, apparently official.
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[SPEAKER_03]: This is Kennedy.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Die and come to TM.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The man lay a formally charge to the assassination question.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
01:49.118 --> 01:50.039
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
01:50.059 --> 01:50.520
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
01:50.540 --> 01:51.301
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just a part of it.
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[UNKNOWN]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just a part of it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Larry, welcome back to Southern JFK, man.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's great to be back with has some great conversations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know you will keep it real and I know that what you're saying is based in the document.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that is, that's the truth.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think I left out some of your books in my intro.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Are there some other ones you wanna mention quickly that I did?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I think some of the books that we relate to some of the issues, questions we're talking about today, the geopolitics of the early 60s,
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[SPEAKER_04]: basically covert warfare versus overt political activities comes into play a lot so surprise attack would be one of the books uh again pretty large book four hundred some pages that deal with what was going on for my military standpoint which you politics a lot of a lot of Kennedy's decisions, Eisenhower's decisions on various things the difference is their policies
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[SPEAKER_04]: And their interaction with the military community, which is something we're going to be talking about.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Shadow warfare looks at the covert side and kind of contrast what people were saying in public versus doing in private, especially about covert operations, regime change, that sort of thing, back channel communications, you know,
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[SPEAKER_04]: Estated to the public by the State Department and the administration and American foreign policy as to what was actually going on behind the scenes that wasn't in the press releases.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Those two books plus I won if we get into the Bay of Pigs, those sorts of things, the book in denial is probably my premier work on actual covert highly deniable operations such as the things that JFK was doing in 1963 and how they were different than what had been
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[SPEAKER_04]: Understanding the chaos of Canada's administration circa 6263 is really to key to a lot of this because we oversimplify a lot.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the timeline JFK was a very situational guy, it was very pragmatic.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He was very, very experienced as a decision maker.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So he is willing to change his positions as new data became available.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So if you're not working out of a very specific timeline,
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[SPEAKER_00]: what was happening in what months even and what was in play and what had been abandoned it's easy to get lost and i'm afraid we do that a lot by making very broad statements that just don't work sure sure well let's uh let's jump into it here so and just zooming out a little bit right now i'm on this uh sort of journey i guess if you will uh to try to look at all of the
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, either there's evidence to support, hey, this person could have had some motive or some involvement, or there's a large group of people that thinks it, so we need to talk about it type situation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we've walked, worked through many of the main primary culprits, and all I have left is the Soviet Union, which we're going to talk about today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then I have Cuba, Cuban excels.
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[SPEAKER_00]: a little organization called the Central Intelligence Agency, which is going to take a long time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then the generals is sort of the last, where I'm kind of going to end it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we're looking today right now at the Soviet Union.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the question is why look at the Soviet Union, what's their angle?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's to obvious, but just to sort of state it, that's the key rival
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[SPEAKER_00]: with regards to Lee Harvey Oswald.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's the specific connection of him going over to the Soviet Union.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, there's his visit to Mexico City, which we'll touch on later.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's the the embassy correspondence, which we'll also talk about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So you look at those things and it's easy to
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[SPEAKER_00]: sort of just fly by night if you're not really steeped in the evidence and you just hear what I just said it's easy to go oh yeah I mean seems like the Soviets did it that's kind of the real story which is also what the war in commission was told but but but so anyway that's why we're looking at them and you know going into office JFK was sort of a hug
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he ran on the missile gap, this idea that we were behind in the amount of missiles that we had versus the Soviet Union, which ended up not being true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got to remember that Bay of Pigs, in April of 1961, just months after Kennedy came in, really alarmed cruisechev and alarmed the Soviets.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there were consequences for that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like there was no downside.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then we also have one thing just to point out early on because this was, you know, RFK started his relationship with Bolshekov.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I believe in like the summer of 1961, it might have been the spring, but at any rate, that ended up being a really big deal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there was this back channel between
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[SPEAKER_00]: There were other back channels used as well, Carlimov and DeBronen.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The point is JFK didn't like going through official channels when it came to talking to the Soviets.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've got RFK telling Bolshekov, this Soviet GRU agent in 1961, the JFK's own military and CIA might quote, put him away.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How literally should we read that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess what's your perspective on the...
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, the necessity of this, of this back channel communication point, one of the things that comes up into that is terminology and Russian usage versus American usage for putting him away in U.S. terms might be that the U.S. generals who were quite
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[SPEAKER_04]: openly speaking to the public, you know, they didn't pull their punches.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They would say what they liked and didn't like in an administration might oppose JFK's policies.
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[SPEAKER_04]: However, in the Soviet experience, opposing the policies of a Soviet leader, usually led them being eliminated, either politically, not even gracefully politically, like, okay, you're gone, you're just, you're off, you're taking out of action.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I think in one case, we're talking about a warning to the Soviets that
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[SPEAKER_04]: setting up a vision with, you know, when you're talking with JFK, just remember that he has political constraints that your Soviet leaders don't have because JFK is responsible to his public, which includes his military in there, they're perfectly ready to support political opposition to him.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That, you know, so when you're, you can even consider it essentially, basically, a positioning for negotiations like, don't push him too hard because he's not going to soften because he has political concerns, you know, if you push him to the wall, he's going to, he's just going to get harder, you know, they are going to push him into a harder position.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Now, whether that's really true or not, it certainly makes,
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[SPEAKER_04]: it since for RFK to be setting up this dialogue in terms of don't push you know don't push the president too much you'll just you'll put his back up against the wall and you'll make you even harder to deal with.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I see it more of a
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[SPEAKER_04]: At that point in time, in particular, I see it more of a positioning for negotiations with cruise shaft, which they knew was going on and it was going to go on.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There are going to be some meetings, there are going to be confrontations.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't think a literal interpretation of the wording is right.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's got to be put in context.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's turn to Vienna and Emberlenn and just to continue looking at the context, so in Vienna, of course, Kennedy goes there, and it's in June of 1961, which is, again, the Bay of Pigs was just in April, so I don't know what was expected, but I guess one thing that jumped out to me as he's in Vienna, just from a strategic standpoint,
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[SPEAKER_00]: after the Bay of Pigs, you've got Cuba, which is so close, but Berlin is surrounded, really, from the Soviet side.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So there was like a sort of a clear analog, I guess, on the thing that we cared about that was close to the Soviets.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this this crisis and in August in the 1961 the full of 1961 and check point Charlie this is all JFK's first year.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's got Berlin is he's got Bay of pigs and he's got the Vienna that doesn't go well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a cold winter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then we got check point Charlie and
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[SPEAKER_00]: the general that he sent in there, Lucius Clay's secretly trying to bulldoze the Berlin wall without telling him about it, and then he ends up resolving checkpoint Charlie how through Bullshacob, and I remember I was going to say before on Bullshacob, and if you could comment on this,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Even though there's back channel communications with Bolshevikov, the reality was that everybody knew in the intelligence agencies, etc., was generally aware that these communications were ongoing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The purpose of the communications must have just been that he trusted that his true message would get across, maybe more so than he wanted it to be secret, would you say?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And his first three, four months in the presidency, JFK learned quickly that he could not tell everything they'd take everything they'd joint chiefs of staff.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We're telling him literally without questioning it, without challenging it, you know, within his very first few months in office, they were pushing him for land and courage and allows and to put troops into the house and to essentially go up against the Chinese.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And I find it interesting as a side note at one point in time.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Kennedy turned to one of them and said, well, how are you going to move, you know, thousands of troops and allows while we're going to move by air, Kennedy goes, do they have airfields there?
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[SPEAKER_04]: And the chiefs look at each other and one of them says, well, they have one, it's like, wait a minute.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I need to be asking these guys a lot of questions rather than taking everything they say on face value.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So that's part of the context, I think you have to have, but we brought up a really important point.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We tend to ignore Berlin when we talk about the JFK assassination and all of this to Kennedy Europe, quite frankly, was still more important than anything else.
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[SPEAKER_04]: just like to ice an hour and making his decisions about the French and Indochina.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He decided to go with the French because Europe was more important than Indochina.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So he decided to go with a colonial regime, a decision, but Europe always retained this special importance, and it has over the decades until now, apparently.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Europe was at the top of JFK's mind, and Berlin was as important or more important to JFK than Cuba or Vietnam, and you hear that and see that in some of the exchanges kind of like, you know, we can't do this here because
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[SPEAKER_04]: Berlin.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Berlin is the focus.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We have to maintain our strength in Berlin.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's where we're facing down the Soviets.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is direct confrontation with the Soviet armies who outnumber us 20 to 1.
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[SPEAKER_04]: If the Soviets are going to win anywhere, they're going to go through Berlin.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's a very important point that you bring up.
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[SPEAKER_04]: and it was very important for him to appear tough in those negotiations, and he had a problem.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Kruschef
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[SPEAKER_04]: felt that he was was not strong in those negotiations.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He came out out of it, you know, cruise shift was concerned about his relationship with Kennedy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Where's this guy?
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[SPEAKER_04]: How far can I push him?
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[SPEAKER_04]: How far can I not push him?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Which set up?
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[SPEAKER_04]: I'm afraid the missile crisis.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But just a quick, quick answer to your point.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Berlin was of much more importance to JFK and a lot of this
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and what I would say about Berlin, how I saw him talk about it with the generals, particularly around the Cuban missile crisis, is he was kind of on a different planet with the generals most of the time, and they were just talking about totally different things in regards to what they should do, but that was the area of common ground.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Kennedy would go you understand if you do this they're gonna take Berlin and then all the generals would go Yes, they probably will take Berlin if we do that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good point.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, so that was sort of like the only way to enter them It also imposes you talked about him going in as a hawk and the funny thing is the generals New this sometimes they would kind of ignore it or walk around it, but in terms of Berlin again It's not generally known
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[SPEAKER_04]: that on the table, Kennedy put a response plan on the table, very detailed response plan to a Soviet push, West, was under a code name Pony Blanket, coming from his kids, actually in the White House, that went all the way up to tactical nukes.
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[SPEAKER_04]: and he granted authority all the way up to technical nukes to defend Berlin to push them back and you've got to I don't know if anybody has ever listened to that recording of his is phone call with a guy at checkpoint Charlie the tank commander he's on the phone with the tank commander saying if those Russian tanks move you move will be there do not back down and I'll stay on phone
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[SPEAKER_04]: Like, okay, I am in charge.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is if it goes, it goes up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, the Kennedy wasn't the phone?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A pony blanket, I feel like I now have to start another cover band to call a pony blanket because it will literally cover you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, let's pivot to the cube and missile crisis if we can, it's a nice little segue.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna cover it super high level and just kind of walk through
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't know anything about the Cuban muscle crisis slash covered, you know, talking about the high points as it relates to JFK's decisions during it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so first of all, so be it logic for placing these missiles in Cuba was that there were worried about an invasion of Cuba after the Bay of Pigs, you know?
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[SPEAKER_00]: rightfully so.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And also there were Jupiter missiles already in Turkey, Italy, and the United Kingdom that the United States had pointing at the Soviets, so they were kind of like, well, I can't we do it if the United States was doing it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: October 14, 1962 that was sort of the day that
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[SPEAKER_00]: the U2 over flight of Cuba discovered the Soviet missile sites, the XCOM, the executive committee of the National Security Council began to meet regularly and the joint chiefs started to press for invasion or large-scale air strikes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is when we have Curtis Limey famously telling Kennedy, you're in a pretty bad fix, Mr. President and JFK goes, what'd you say?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, oh, you're in a pretty bad fix.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're right there with me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: not great on that unfortunately because they're kind of talking over each other but it's still pretty cool.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then of course the JFK decides to go with the quarantine which is really just like a limited blockade which is still an act of war but the unanimous position of the joint chiefs was to invade and the only one that supported Kennedy with the
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[SPEAKER_00]: quarantine blockade was McNamara.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And eventually the quarantine line was tested, the ships, the Soviet ships did turn back.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We've got the story of Vasili Archipov with the vetoing that nuclear launch, which is just crazy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There almost was a nuclear missile launched by the Soviets, because they were confused about some depth charges, I believe, that they had been sent
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then on Black Saturday, October 27th, this is really, it reaches a crescendo.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We got two different military personnel that have incidents with the Soviets.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One, this guy, Maltsby, he strays over YouTube, and his YouTube, he strays over Soviet airspace, and there's a whole conversation, by the way, is like, was that a plant?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Did they know about it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Did they let it happen to try to provoke it?
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a kind of a whole side story that I didn't go super far into because it kind of seems speculative, but also possible, but I just didn't really know.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But at any rate, they were able to get that U2 out of there, and there was no incident, but then because it could fly higher than the Soviet plans.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But then it's got Anderson, I forget his first name, but he was shot down over Cuba, a pilot was shot down over Cuba, major Anderson, and he died.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was killed, and this is really the point where everyone's freaking out because it's, you know, that's getting a force.
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[SPEAKER_00]: force our hand, and also Kennedy had just said he had just said, well, if they shoot one of our planes down, then we'll destroy the Sam's, you know, the anti-aircraft missiles.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then this is when RFK reaches out to Dobrennan and says, Hey, the president is not sure that the military won't overthrow him and try to seize power.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, RFK had already told Bolshikov a few months before that in August of 1962, that he was worried that in a gust of blind hate his enemies could go to any length, including killing him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Now, the crisis was ultimately resolved through a secret deal to remove the Jupiter missiles from Turkey when things calm down, cruisechev accepted it on Soviet state radio in October 28.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Most people were excited, relieved, really.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The joint chiefs were not happy at all, Curtis Lemme called it the greatest defeat in history.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's my, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh
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[SPEAKER_00]: two-minute summary of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I guess what do you think we can learn about the Cuban Missile Crisis, both from Kennedy's interactions with the Joint Chiefs, and also just from the things that RFK was telling Joe Brennan and Bolshikov via these back channels?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, a couple of points on that.
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[SPEAKER_04]: First of all, you do certainly did bring back some memories with that dialogue.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I happen to be in the barber's chair at the time, the announcement of the YouTube shoot down came over the radio.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We immediately left the barber shop and went home.
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[SPEAKER_04]: prepared for the worst because we were living about 50 miles from the first Atlas Operation ICBMs, which would have been the first thing on the Russian targeting list.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So like, okay, this afternoon could get worse really quickly.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So that brings back some memories.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I think one of the things, again, for context, um, I don't think, and I think most historians now do not really go along with the thought that that Krushev had Cuba in mind at all in terms of protecting Cuba, Krushev had really backed down.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Krushev really wanted Berlin.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Krushev really wanted, and he had
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[SPEAKER_04]: Such a for superiority that the only thing that held him back was the Soviets well knew that they were way behind on ballistic missiles tactical missiles the thorns that you they were well behind on so how do you how do you negotiate with Kennedy even if you think he's a little week how do you negotiate with them with US such as a strategic
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[SPEAKER_04]: you know, advantage, putting those missiles in Cuba neutralize that because it put all of those missile bases within range of
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[SPEAKER_04]: Russian missiles and Cuba because so you could go into an negotiation saying, you know, we're equal.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You've got lots of missiles and they're directly under our, you know, preemption.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So it would have taken that strategic advantage off the table.
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[SPEAKER_04]: What most folks we didn't even realize at the time certainly limited it realized that there were great brigades of Russian missile troops in Cuba with cruise missiles.
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[SPEAKER_04]: atomic, tipped cruise missiles, targeting Guantanamo.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There were lots more rocket forces, not just the ballistic missile forces, with nukes and Q, but the US military was even aware of.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Now the thing is that really differentiates JFK from almost any other president, other than Eisenhower,
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[SPEAKER_04]: JFK had been a field military officer and saw how real things were out on the front lines.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And it one of his famous quotes during the Cuban Missile Crisis was, I've got to be talking to the right people when he sent RFK in McNamara to sink Atlantic's office for a day but hour by hour blow of what were you doing with this quarantine on the Russian ships.
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[SPEAKER_04]: his remark was, some SOB is not going to get the word, and they're going to take action according to the book, and I don't want action according to the book, you know, the book was built for a war, it's not built for, you know, if you follow the book, like depth charging those subs.
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[SPEAKER_04]: you're going to get me into a war.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want that.
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[SPEAKER_04]: That's when RFK and McNamara got into such an argument with the Navy commanders.
25:24.327 --> 25:29.272
[SPEAKER_04]: Like no, I understand that you've got standing protocols that this does not apply now.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You can't do that.
25:30.874 --> 25:43.287
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think the point is there was a there was a lot of grief because the military and the joint
25:44.937 --> 25:45.978
[SPEAKER_04]: Kennedy didn't do that.
25:46.058 --> 25:52.104
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not that he was not hawkish in some senses, but he did not want to go by any pre-programmed book.
25:52.565 --> 25:53.806
[SPEAKER_04]: He was situational.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You know, if the Russians blink, no, we're not going to throw this way.
25:57.991 --> 26:10.203
[SPEAKER_04]: If it looks like they're going to, and those dialogues you're talking about with RFK and the Russians again, I would assert those are just tell the Russians, they're to establish negotiation.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Don't press too hard.
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[SPEAKER_04]: or my brother, the president, is gonna go harder.
26:18.038 --> 26:20.462
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you push him, the military will push him.
26:20.562 --> 26:22.485
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not gonna do you any good to push him.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So I really do think a lot of those exchanges are not their political.
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[SPEAKER_04]: ArvGase, the political guy.
26:29.396 --> 26:30.698
[SPEAKER_04]: He's an negotiating guy.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They're not necessarily what they seem to be.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They're positioning.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So back to your question.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the Cuban missile crisis,
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[SPEAKER_04]: Politically was not good for JFK, but he bounced back from it pretty quickly and strangely enough bounce back with just at the end of the Cuban missile crisis, or at the Bay of Pigs missile crisis, he bounced back and was starting to transfer a lot of power from the CIA to the military.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He was giving military all the covert operations in Indochina and Vietnam.
27:12.536 --> 27:14.237
[SPEAKER_04]: He was abandoned by 63.
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[SPEAKER_04]: He was giving them all the operations against Cuba.
27:17.681 --> 27:23.866
[SPEAKER_04]: So again, JFK is attended more military exercises than any other president.
27:24.367 --> 27:35.657
[SPEAKER_04]: So I guess what I'm trying to say is, yeah, you've got quotes that you can always extract from a May.
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[SPEAKER_04]: that doesn't necessarily portray the situation with the entire military complex and a lot of it frankly was political and as far as the Russian exchanges may have been positioning for negotiations more than actual fear.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, did the JFK fear the influence of the military all our seven days in May?
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[SPEAKER_04]: read the book you know they're the one of the the Air Force Commander will take over and become the president you know I don't he certainly didn't disregard that but some of that is it's good positioning too he supported writing the book and doing the movie and that's good positioning for him like no these guys don't don't take them you know I've got there's another side of this story too you know
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's always, always a bunch of sides to the store, sometimes more than two.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That was like kinds of sides.
28:34.700 --> 28:39.167
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do something that I'm excited to do, and I don't know what you're going to say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get Larry Hancock on the record when it comes to pop-offs mole.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here we go, here we go, here we go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so pop-offs mole.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What are we talking about?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And who is that?
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[SPEAKER_00]: How's it related to the JFK assassination?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So this guy named Peter Popov.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's a GRU kernel who became a CIA defector in place from 1952 to 1959.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Then he loses contact.
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[SPEAKER_00]: with his with the CIA because he goes back to Moscow though he he comes back to Germany and he recklessly approaches these British officers in a in a German restaurant bathroom and basically gives them information to hand on to the CIA and turns out MI6 is compromised by the KGB so this
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[SPEAKER_00]: uh... so pop up eventually uh... gets discovered and he's executed but before he's executed he tells uh... his handler in the cia a uh... keys falter i believe is that uh... there is a kgb spy who is high up in the cia and uh... and he's he's still there so then of course this starts the the malhunt to try to find the the kgb spy in cia
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[SPEAKER_00]: And here's where Oswell comes in and there's got some heavy hitters and his corner on this story, not Oswell, but I guess there are some heavy hitters who assert this story.
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[SPEAKER_00]: According to John Newman, the professor of longtime author researcher Malcolm Blunt, the esteemed JFK's
30:27.948 --> 30:50.397
[SPEAKER_00]: Lee Harvey Oswald was used as bait, or they call it fly paper, to try to catch pop-ups mole, because the idea was basically that Oswald's file is held in the office of security, instead of the Soviet Russia division where it should be, the KGB is going to find out about Oswald when he goes and offers this information on the YouTube, and they're going to ask their guy at the CA, hey what's going on with Oswald?
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[SPEAKER_00]: This real is its provocation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: then they go check out the file and then aha we've caught the person we've caught our mold is the person looking for information on our old well no one ever followed up on us well then according to what newman thinks it's the reason why it's because the guy that was Taylor's oldest time the guy that was the running the mold hunt turns out he was the mold okay so so that would be why um
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want to get into that at times.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's persuasive to me, but I haven't zoomed as super tight into that, you know, is Bruce Sully, the bowl or not.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But the whole point is, the headline here is, for our cases, for, you know, as a release of the assassination,
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[SPEAKER_00]: If Oswald being a false defector, sort of knowing that he's over there is bait and it makes sense, he goes over his bait, he doesn't get used, he just sort of fizzles out and he comes home.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So do you share that view, do you have problems or questions or concerns about the pop-up or theory, which you're taking on all that?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, okay, I certainly think that there may have been a mold that just, you know, let's fight certainly there could have been a mold, these people could have been a well, Angleton was obviously concerned about mold in many cases, not just this case, and I think this kind of like Angleton is always, that's his job.
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[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he's always concerned about mold hunting, that's what I just hold the part might exist it when he's doing that part of counterintelligence, you know, he had different roles, so the real question comes is, why would you play this long game?
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[SPEAKER_04]: with somebody who's relatively unimportant like he or Leary Oswell, who really doesn't have any information that the Soviets are going to want or need.
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[SPEAKER_04]: When in the book, the Oswell puzzle, we look at this and we discovered the HSCA was very interested in the same question.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Long ago, long before John was, they looked at the whole concept of false defectors.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They came up Angleton's office was supplied with details on 11 different individuals that had defected to the Soviet Union.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It, as well certainly, was not in unique, in fact, he's probably the lowest profile.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They were technology people like Rand, Rand Employee, Robert Webster.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There were others that guys that had worked for the NSA.
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[SPEAKER_04]: that were defectors that got a lot more interest inside Russia.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot more paperwork.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They were taken seriously.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They may have been indeed true false defectors.
33:37.690 --> 33:40.695
[SPEAKER_04]: Webster quite likely was a false stector.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We can find documents showing how those people were picked, how they were recruited, how they were prepared for their role, even how they were debriefed by CIA domestic ops when they came back to the US.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing unique about that for Oswald and its matter of fact Oswald doesn't go through any of that process as far as we can find.
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[SPEAKER_04]: At most, he may have provided some information through the State Department to tune domestic ops on his way back to the US.
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[SPEAKER_04]: But I guess the real answer to the question is I think
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[SPEAKER_04]: As with the whole U2 scenario, I love John Newman, I've used a lot of his research, I continue to lose it, but I think you can take some of this stuff way too far and build a case around it that doesn't exist.
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[SPEAKER_04]: There was nothing unique about Lee Harvey Oswald in the U2.
34:34.673 --> 34:39.217
[SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing unique about Lee Harvey Oswald and Mulhoney and Angleton.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Angleton had every ability because he was being copied by State Department.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, he's been copied by State Department.
34:47.235 --> 34:52.280
[SPEAKER_04]: The CIA is getting its information about Lee Harvey Oswell from the State Department.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They're not getting it any plate of sales.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They're getting from the State Department.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And then, as Malcolm has pointed out, they control where that information is going.
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[SPEAKER_04]: They could have done that with any individual, not just Lee Harvey Oswell.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is a paperwork game played inside it in terms of routing and compartmentalization.
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[SPEAKER_04]: So, could Angle Thun have been playing a Mowhunning game with Lee Harvey Oswald's paperwork?
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[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_04]: Could have been playing the same game in Mexico City that doesn't imply that Lee Harvey Oswald is a false defector.
35:28.689 --> 35:34.958
[SPEAKER_04]: He can be a real defector in his own mind, and Angle Thun can still use his paperwork for Mowhunning.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, all right, so what you're saying is, you do not believe he was a winning, defect, a winning false defector.
35:48.110 --> 35:51.698
[SPEAKER_00]: You believe he was actually a defector.
35:51.678 --> 36:00.489
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're saying it's possible that there could also be layered on top of that, someone using him in that role.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What about, I guess, just two things I would bring up just to, because here's the deal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're, you're Larry Hancock.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So to be honest with you, like, I'm something, even though I mean, I'm not going to automatically agree with everything you say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I am somewhat, like, deferential, like, I'll, I'm going to hear you out, okay?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the routing of Oswald's file, uh, he, you know, are there other, you're saying that's not uncommon that that someone in his situation would not have their file is so be a rush of division.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to understand your position on their file routing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_04]: This is, this is a, this is a routing game compartmentalization of files, you know,
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[SPEAKER_04]: making sure information information.
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[SPEAKER_04]: For example, we see the same thing and we go into great detail and the also a puzzle book about information on also being compartmentalized in 1963 between the Cuba Project Special Affairs staff and Mexico City.
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[SPEAKER_04]: there's a special all of us will files are pulled and off of his his headquarters file where they should be almost all of them are pulled and moved over to the fair play for Cuba committee okay so when headquarters is asked about us will uh Mexico City in Mexico City Mexico City gets the answer of
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[SPEAKER_04]: Well, he's still in the Soviet Union, and he may come back with a Soviet wife.
37:31.916 --> 37:34.001
[SPEAKER_04]: No, wait a minute, he's been back for a year.
37:34.482 --> 37:43.883
[SPEAKER_04]: So, clearly this whole point of hiding files, compartmentalain files, what it really says is individual.
37:43.863 --> 37:55.777
[SPEAKER_04]: may be of interest to some part of the CIA for its own purpose, so much so that they're even monitoring the file traffic and controlling information.
37:55.877 --> 38:00.482
[SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing unique about controlling information going to solve it Russia.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's just another example of how you can control the document
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[SPEAKER_04]: It could be for angles and purposes and for special affairs staff purposes because they seem to be isolating information from each other.
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[SPEAKER_04]: You just, it's a standard practice, which seems strange, but I mean, that's, this is the intelligence agency control of information is everything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, I just want to make sure I understand what your position is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, are you saying that you agree that his file was handled in a anomalous way?
38:44.712 --> 38:56.686
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something going on with the file, but your position is that that could mean a number of things, but don't you think that would have tried to explain it if it had an innocent explanation?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because it's so obvious.
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[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a great question, but here's the answer.
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[SPEAKER_04]: It's 1964, or later during the Asphalt Committee, you as the CIA officer, do you want to come up and give testimony that the CIA was considering Oswald?
39:15.858 --> 39:22.568
[SPEAKER_04]: Not only just considering Oswald, but using Oswald without his knowledge, but using Lee Harvey Oswald.
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[SPEAKER_04]: for a variety of different operational purposes internally.
39:27.015 --> 39:29.218
[SPEAKER_04]: We're totally familiar with the guy.
39:29.579 --> 39:30.600
[SPEAKER_04]: We're all over him.
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[SPEAKER_04]: We have several officers that, you know, our handling is information.
39:35.707 --> 39:39.912
[SPEAKER_04]: This gets worse in 1963 when David and I right in our book.
39:40.192 --> 39:44.297
[SPEAKER_04]: He's actually being considered for two different operational uses.
39:44.718 --> 39:52.588
[SPEAKER_04]: One of them is supposed to kick off in November 1963.
39:53.935 --> 39:54.996
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not a good look.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a good look, but one would think that, like, you know, I don't know if I was on the low nut side of the game, an easy win would be to go and get that from the CIA and be like, look, we're going to come clean and tell you what we did.
40:11.555 --> 40:14.278
[SPEAKER_00]: So look, all you conspiracy people shut up.
40:14.338 --> 40:15.660
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying, I don't know.
40:16.140 --> 40:17.882
[SPEAKER_00]: The CIA never comes clean.
40:17.962 --> 40:19.564
[SPEAKER_04]: It just doesn't work that way.
40:19.844 --> 40:22.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, one of the things that's
40:22.167 --> 40:30.755
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's the thing that, again, we see in 1963 is that, and this has just come out a lot with the recent file releases.
40:31.456 --> 40:42.746
[SPEAKER_04]: There were so many people in Miami, special affair staff, jam-wife, domestic ops officers that are absolutely no about Lee Harvey Oswald.
40:42.986 --> 40:43.807
[SPEAKER_04]: They're tracking them.
40:43.867 --> 40:50.233
[SPEAKER_04]: They're getting information on his activities from their sources, and after when they're
40:50.990 --> 40:53.394
[SPEAKER_04]: No, nobody ever heard of them.
40:53.494 --> 41:10.078
[SPEAKER_04]: No, we never heard of this guy, we found out that after the assassination, special affair staff even conducted their own investigation of their own people to see if they were involved and then destroyed the report.
41:10.430 --> 41:11.772
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
41:11.792 --> 41:17.980
[SPEAKER_04]: So the CIA, no, I'm sorry, it just doesn't come up front with this stuff.
41:18.100 --> 41:32.398
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, if you think that JFK was going to quote unquote break the agency into 1,000 pieces before his assassination, if you come out with this knowledge of Oswell and oh, by the way, he just killed JFK.
41:33.260 --> 41:38.226
[SPEAKER_04]: But he's definitely going to break the agency into 1,000 pieces.
41:39.370 --> 41:45.777
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so are you saying that that Oswald, sorry, I just want to make sure I'm getting your point.
41:45.797 --> 42:01.655
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it that he might have had been some sort of low level like winning asset of some extent, and we just don't know, or are you saying you're ruling that out?
42:01.675 --> 42:05.379
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and if he was involved, it was unwitting.
42:05.479 --> 42:06.660
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's my question.
42:06.640 --> 42:16.593
[SPEAKER_04]: And we have old chapter on that in the book that that's because that's the question you've got to answer we can't dance around that one the answer is No, he was never a winning asset.
42:17.214 --> 42:27.687
[SPEAKER_04]: Us will was following his own agenda, but his own agenda made him useful at various times to different people within the CIA
42:28.223 --> 42:29.324
[SPEAKER_04]: and to the FBI.
42:29.945 --> 42:55.480
[SPEAKER_04]: What we would assert actually is there was one government agency, the FBI, who actually was considering Oswald as a provisional subversive informant in the summer of 1963 because he had gone to them and offered them information about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
42:55.460 --> 43:00.441
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, two months, they actually were treating him as a source.
43:00.826 --> 43:07.516
[SPEAKER_04]: And Mosul did that to throw them off because he didn't want to mess in his business in New Orleans and it worked.
43:07.536 --> 43:12.143
[SPEAKER_04]: By the time they caught to the fact that he had misled them, he was gone.
43:12.183 --> 43:16.309
[SPEAKER_04]: He was had a town and it actually did divert them for a couple.
43:16.329 --> 43:22.598
[SPEAKER_04]: So our our position is Oswald has own agendas, played his own games.
43:23.079 --> 43:29.128
[SPEAKER_04]: They were people around him that were doing things with information about him that he had no clue about.
43:29.632 --> 43:29.993
[SPEAKER_04]: Got it.
43:30.174 --> 43:30.455
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
43:31.037 --> 43:31.258
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
43:31.278 --> 43:40.452
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's, I mean, what I like about your point is that it's plausible and and it's a very Larry Hancock thing to say honestly.
43:40.533 --> 43:45.360
[SPEAKER_00]: But because, uh, you're not just going, la, la, la, la, la, what are you talking about?
43:45.380 --> 43:45.941
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing.
43:45.981 --> 43:46.722
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing happened.
43:47.023 --> 43:48.084
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going, hold on.
43:48.144 --> 43:52.350
[SPEAKER_00]: Something may have happened, but you don't, you can't necessarily draw the conclusion.
43:52.370 --> 43:53.552
[SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to draw from that.
43:53.652 --> 43:56.557
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, perhaps, one, yeah, we'll see.
43:56.777 --> 43:58.820
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, let's, let's move on to the next thing here.
43:59.120 --> 44:02.605
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, former, see, I want to talk about James Woolsey.
44:02.766 --> 44:05.089
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you, are you familiar with this book that he wrote?
44:05.255 --> 44:07.598
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a hundred and twenty pages.
44:07.938 --> 44:13.584
[SPEAKER_00]: This is really, really short, but it has a nice texture on the the hard cover sleeve.
44:13.644 --> 44:14.145
[SPEAKER_00]: I will say.
44:14.846 --> 44:21.433
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, Woolsey was a former CIA director and he basically writes a book about how, hey, guess what?
44:21.573 --> 44:22.895
[SPEAKER_00]: It really was the Soviets.
44:22.915 --> 44:29.162
[SPEAKER_00]: It's basically the book of like of the LBJ theory, the story that, you know, that he was telling the war and commission the whole time.
44:29.222 --> 44:32.005
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know,
44:31.985 --> 44:39.335
[SPEAKER_00]: It, because there is evidence that was made to look this way, sort of how I've now come to see all this.
44:39.816 --> 44:43.861
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, it looks a lot like the Soviets have the exact involvement.
44:43.881 --> 44:57.300
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see it all, alleging, because that seems to have been like a subplot, like the second layer of the onion, if you will, to sort of get all the commissioners on board to stick to the official story.
44:57.280 --> 45:04.220
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and Woolsey says that his theory is that cruise chef personally ordered the assassination.
45:04.240 --> 45:12.724
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, and that his handlers of Oswald was demoreshilt and Valerie Costakov.
45:12.704 --> 45:21.214
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, tomorrow's show clearly is associated with American intelligence and French intelligence, I believe, but I don't think there's really any evidence of that.
45:21.474 --> 45:32.087
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see any evidence offered by Woolsey showing the tomorrow's show being a Soviet spy, but Costa Cove, that's the big famous one.
45:32.428 --> 45:33.649
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, he's the
45:33.629 --> 45:44.771
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the guy who's supposed to be Department of 13 the head of assassinations in the western hemisphere for the Soviets and we have our only one and only rebuttal on in this episode.
45:44.911 --> 45:46.114
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to drop in right here.
45:46.194 --> 45:50.322
[SPEAKER_00]: Larry and this is from Fred and Louisiana.
45:50.302 --> 45:59.277
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's calling me out on not mentioning something about Costa Cove, which I think I did mention this in the Mexico City episode, but probably should have brought it up again, and here's where it is.
45:59.858 --> 46:03.644
[SPEAKER_00]: He says you slid by a substantial controversy on Costa Cove.
46:04.105 --> 46:11.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out his 1964 or check out the 1964 communication from Hoover to Angleton about Costa Cove.
46:11.277 --> 46:31.348
[SPEAKER_00]: At the time, Angleton and others in the CIA appeared to be pushing the idea that Oswald acted on behalf of the Soviets under Costa Cove's direction, and memos to the war in commission, the CIA used the language it is believed that Costa Cove was associated with director at 13, not he was.
46:31.548 --> 46:32.830
[SPEAKER_00]: So in other words,
46:33.164 --> 46:44.940
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying it's really an unresolved controversy if Costa Cove even held this position that makes it the headline that he, because if it's like, oh, Costa Cove talked to the Soviet to the embassy, well, who cares?
46:45.000 --> 46:46.202
[SPEAKER_00]: He's been to the Soviet Union before.
46:46.663 --> 46:53.672
[SPEAKER_00]: But if he talked to the head of what works of the KGB, oh my gosh, this is a crisis.
46:53.993 --> 46:55.795
[SPEAKER_00]: So it makes a big difference.
46:56.596 --> 47:02.985
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will answer that rebuttal by very bravely saying, I'm gonna go out on a limb, and I'm gonna say,
47:02.965 --> 47:07.190
[SPEAKER_00]: Larry, what's your take?
47:07.210 --> 47:08.592
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, yeah.
47:08.612 --> 47:09.073
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's see.
47:09.113 --> 47:10.534
[SPEAKER_04]: There were there two questions there.
47:11.135 --> 47:13.438
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there are two questions there.
47:13.678 --> 47:21.368
[SPEAKER_04]: What I will say is Costa Cove What we know basically is as would the CIA officers.
47:21.949 --> 47:27.375
[SPEAKER_04]: Every embassy, whether it's US or Russian or British or whatever.
47:28.997 --> 47:31.200
[SPEAKER_04]: The political officers
47:31.298 --> 47:38.589
[SPEAKER_04]: and that embassy are either intelligence officers, or they've been trained by intelligence officers.
47:38.609 --> 47:43.357
[SPEAKER_04]: The people that Oswell met with cost of call, those guys weren't intelligence officers.
47:43.477 --> 47:44.999
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no doubt about that.
47:45.480 --> 47:57.238
[SPEAKER_04]: What we know about cost of calls actual role was cost of call was in Mexico City to interface with Soviet informants working out of the US.
47:57.218 --> 48:26.719
[SPEAKER_04]: and we actually have a paper trail of the CIA handing off a European Soviet source who came to the U.S. they handed it off to the FBI and then that fell across the border into the Mexico to report to Costa Cove on his activities in the U.S. which actually had to do with missile bases, not just missile bases with the missile base I mentioned earlier,
48:26.699 --> 48:28.422
[SPEAKER_04]: Which I loved, okay.
48:28.442 --> 48:33.751
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, Costa Cove was an intelligence officer in charge of assassinations.
48:34.452 --> 48:37.958
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that's, we have nothing to prove that.
48:38.038 --> 48:47.814
[SPEAKER_04]: He was an intelligence officer whose role was to talk to Americans, who would either be already known, Soviet sources, or potential Soviet sources.
48:48.335 --> 48:51.340
[SPEAKER_04]: And one thing that people have got to understand is,
48:52.552 --> 49:07.150
[SPEAKER_04]: If an American shows up at the gate of a Soviet embassy, or a Russian shows up at the gate of an American embassy on Saturday, there's an intelligence offer that it's going to talk to them because that's when all the real defections occur.
49:07.690 --> 49:13.898
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's a huge amount of documentation for that that's you don't want regular staff around the weekend.
49:13.918 --> 49:22.508
[SPEAKER_04]: So whoever's going to defect or try to establish contact shows up, cost to cough, meeting
49:22.994 --> 49:23.315
[SPEAKER_04]: What?
49:23.335 --> 49:24.839
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely makes total sense.
49:25.640 --> 49:29.169
[SPEAKER_04]: There's nothing to do with assassinations, has to do with defections.
49:29.791 --> 49:34.322
[SPEAKER_04]: So I would come down on the fact, Costa Cove is simply an intelligence officer.
49:34.422 --> 49:36.447
[SPEAKER_04]: He is KGB without a doubt.
49:37.149 --> 49:38.893
[SPEAKER_04]: And the, the,
49:40.223 --> 49:52.064
[SPEAKER_04]: Several levels at the CIA were quite frankly trying to point towards the Soviet Union in the two weeks after the assassination and longer.
49:52.184 --> 50:02.402
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, mostly, saying it's nothing new, what I found fascinating about it, but Wolfly's book is, there's a book by Hymlik Dahlv, was written way before Wolfly.
50:03.063 --> 50:03.784
[SPEAKER_04]: It's titled,
50:05.232 --> 50:23.207
[SPEAKER_04]: LBJ and the JFK conspiracy, and it presents details on how the Soviets corrupted LBJ and brought him into a plot, and the Soviets are behind this, and in his book, McDonald even gives Pollut Bureau documents.
50:23.474 --> 50:29.322
[SPEAKER_04]: For the poll at bureau approving the assassination of Kennedy over Cuba, you know, it's like way to minute.
50:29.342 --> 50:31.645
[SPEAKER_04]: Walsely, it's just way behind the curve on this.
50:31.945 --> 50:32.566
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm sorry.
50:32.626 --> 50:37.933
[SPEAKER_04]: I think Walsely book is just, it's kind of like Phillips book.
50:37.953 --> 50:44.402
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody OCI officers ever going to write for decades about this without trying to point it towards the Soviets.
50:45.445 --> 50:45.765
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:46.146 --> 50:58.500
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, do you think this, the conversation about Costa Cove being ahead of assassinations, that that's an honest misunderstanding, G, like a telephone game, and some I got in there, or do you think that got planted in the record?
50:58.881 --> 51:02.445
[SPEAKER_04]: It's, I think it's a diversion quite frankly by the CIA.
51:02.925 --> 51:03.626
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
51:04.027 --> 51:08.652
[SPEAKER_04]: They, they, they were seriously trying to, which, you've got it.
51:09.661 --> 51:12.305
[SPEAKER_04]: Who do you want people to be looking at?
51:12.385 --> 51:14.268
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you want to be looking at my agent?
51:14.669 --> 51:16.952
[SPEAKER_04]: See, or do you want to be looking at the bad guys?
51:17.373 --> 51:18.335
[SPEAKER_04]: The guys we fight.
51:18.695 --> 51:20.097
[SPEAKER_04]: We want to be looking over there.
51:20.117 --> 51:22.361
[SPEAKER_04]: That gets us into the Alvarado story.
51:22.802 --> 51:24.965
[SPEAKER_04]: Phil has a lot of other things going on.
51:26.007 --> 51:29.492
[SPEAKER_04]: But, and a black propaganda up,
51:29.827 --> 51:39.960
[SPEAKER_04]: against the Soviets, that's another story, and it's in the book, but anyway, I never give a short answer, you know that, but there's an answer to your question.
51:40.560 --> 51:41.021
[SPEAKER_00]: There, sure.
51:41.562 --> 51:58.062
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about, I wanna just kind of touch on Wolsey's theory a little bit, and the main arguments behind it, one of the strongest pieces of evidence, and one of the strongest pieces of evidence,
51:58.042 --> 52:09.177
[SPEAKER_00]: and support of this idea that Oswald was, in fact, working with the Soviets, is this November 9th, 1963 letter to the Soviet embassy.
52:09.958 --> 52:15.706
[SPEAKER_00]: It's handwritten and the handwritten draft, Ruth Payne turned over to the authorities.
52:16.287 --> 52:20.012
[SPEAKER_00]: It's typed on a typewriter at Ruth Payne's house.
52:21.033 --> 52:25.459
[SPEAKER_00]: The only type document the FBI could establish had been made on it.
52:25.479 --> 52:27.542
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean it was a problem.
52:27.522 --> 52:43.810
[SPEAKER_00]: but but um but then anyway so the letter what it says is the issue right so here's what is here's the sort of the spicy part he references comrade comrade coastin which is apparently costacob's code name
52:43.790 --> 52:53.243
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, I say it apparently because it's like, well, costacob was supposedly the head of KGB assassinations, and we just determined that wasn't true.
52:53.564 --> 53:05.200
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so the letter reference is Coston, and which is costacob's code name, and says quote, I had not planned to contact the Soviet embassy in Mexico, so they were unprepared.
53:05.760 --> 53:11.248
[SPEAKER_00]: Had I been able to reach the Soviet embassy in Havana as planned,
53:11.228 --> 53:26.318
[SPEAKER_00]: the embassy there would have had time to complete our business so the as planned and our business kind of makes it sound like hey you understand what we're talking about we have a deal we have a thing going on here there's like a hidden understanding
53:26.298 --> 53:48.863
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, and on its face, it does look like that, you know, that's either that's what it was going on or it was made to look like that, it would seem, but there are some issues with the letter, uh, including November 9th that this code, this letter talks about the removal of the, uh, the Cuban, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
53:48.843 --> 53:50.785
[SPEAKER_00]: The Cuban consulate, uh, you say B.O.
53:50.905 --> 53:53.989
[SPEAKER_00]: ask you, but it's nine days before it actually happened.
53:54.510 --> 53:58.815
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also, uh, Hoover's directed mission to L.B.J.
53:58.875 --> 54:08.426
[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, they, they had the tape and they, the, the photos and they had the men, they, the FBI folks, the interview does mold and it's not the same guy on the tape.
54:08.446 --> 54:14.513
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a second person down there, plus Jane Roman and Egrature Tom Caramassini's all knowing.
54:14.493 --> 54:37.615
[SPEAKER_00]: knowingly sending an outdated Oswald file to Mexico City Station which you mentioned earlier will come back to that here Also, we've got Marvin Giesling one of the unsung heroes of Oswald obthuscation On October 9 pulling you know turning off the FBI flash on Oswald that that would have been sort of triggered the next day
54:37.595 --> 55:02.775
[SPEAKER_00]: of course the Soviet ambassadors response to this in a contemporaneously written memo that he sent back to the Kremlin was that this letter was a provocation you know most likely by the people who actually did it and you know and of course people can always say well of course they're writing that for the record and you believe what the Soviets wrote dummy so I understand I get it
55:02.755 --> 55:10.304
[SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on all of those things as it relates to the letter and Mexico City, Costa Cove, Oswald, et cetera?
55:11.826 --> 55:23.700
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, let's take a look as if Oswald wrote it and Oswald used to pronouns because we and are and you know that's it's a big part of it, you know that's
55:24.153 --> 55:52.827
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that you've got to remember is that Lee and Marina jointly had started writing the Russians in York City since the end of 1962, starting in early 1963, they sent him a Christmas card, end of 1962, and they started a regular series of correspondence to them, both Lee and Marina talking about their going back to Russia.
55:52.975 --> 55:54.296
[SPEAKER_04]: Marina wants to go back.
55:54.356 --> 55:56.359
[SPEAKER_04]: She starts her paperwork to go back.
55:56.819 --> 56:04.227
[SPEAKER_04]: They're more letters from the Orlons talking about, you know, Marina's present pregnant.
56:04.247 --> 56:06.229
[SPEAKER_04]: They need to expedite her paperwork.
56:06.650 --> 56:11.635
[SPEAKER_04]: Marina writes why she hadn't responded with a requested information quickly enough.
56:12.255 --> 56:17.481
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's a lot of we are going our plans are to go back to the Soviet Union.
56:17.461 --> 56:25.374
[SPEAKER_04]: Then we get a letter from Oswald again from New Orleans saying, well, she's pregnant, she needs to come back, she wants to have her baby in Russia.
56:26.596 --> 56:27.919
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have to come back with her.
56:28.199 --> 56:29.541
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I can come back later.
56:29.642 --> 56:31.986
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to get her back.
56:32.066 --> 56:33.388
[SPEAKER_04]: I can follow along.
56:33.408 --> 56:38.136
[SPEAKER_04]: So, if you look at that letter from the we and our and our business,
56:38.116 --> 56:46.385
[SPEAKER_04]: our business as a family, as far as Lee is concerned, is to get at least Marina and June back to Soviet Union.
56:46.606 --> 56:47.867
[SPEAKER_04]: He's fed up with the US.
56:47.987 --> 56:50.490
[SPEAKER_04]: He just didn't work out the way planned it.
56:51.291 --> 56:57.458
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody's paying any attention to him and then you get him to Mexico City.
56:58.078 --> 57:04.005
[SPEAKER_04]: And his plan and what he tells the
57:05.116 --> 57:18.539
[SPEAKER_04]: Visa to go to Cuba while we're trying to get Marina back to Russia trying to get my wife back to Russia and I just I don't feel comfortable in the US I want to be there while we're handling our business to get her back to Russia.
57:19.100 --> 57:29.217
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so the we and our refers to a family matter as far as Notifying, you know, he has been corresponding with the Russian
57:30.530 --> 57:42.449
[SPEAKER_04]: embassy in New York City, okay, not the Russians in New Mexico in Mexico City, so they but they quickly find out about its correspondence when they're querying New York City.
57:42.489 --> 57:48.158
[SPEAKER_04]: So they know that this isn't process and they give them the real story and push back on them.
57:48.198 --> 57:57.212
[SPEAKER_04]: The bottom-wise two-folds, the letter makes perfect sense in context of what Oswald has been trying to do for nine months.
57:57.310 --> 58:05.454
[SPEAKER_04]: with Marina, it makes perfect sense in what he told the Cubans in Mexico City, and what he told the Russians in Mexico City.
58:06.437 --> 58:11.151
[SPEAKER_04]: Now what the other point that you brought up is how does he know about Ask You?
58:12.413 --> 58:25.607
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that people largely ignore is the fact that Sylvia Durran was handled by the CIA and kept from offering testimony immediately to the Warren Commission.
58:26.288 --> 58:30.913
[SPEAKER_04]: We didn't hear from Sylvia Durran and what she had to say when we should have.
58:31.534 --> 58:35.518
[SPEAKER_04]: Soly because of the CIA intervention in Mexico City.
58:35.498 --> 58:42.329
[SPEAKER_04]: What she later said is Duran said, yeah, I told us, well, his application was going to be filed.
58:42.569 --> 58:44.452
[SPEAKER_04]: I sent him out to get pictures.
58:44.492 --> 58:45.854
[SPEAKER_04]: He came back with pictures.
58:46.235 --> 58:49.400
[SPEAKER_04]: We completed the paperwork and a package.
58:49.420 --> 58:51.423
[SPEAKER_04]: Then he got into an argument with Ask You.
58:51.724 --> 58:55.850
[SPEAKER_04]: But I told him his paperwork would be forward to consideration.
58:55.870 --> 58:58.975
[SPEAKER_04]: I also told him he would be advised.
59:00.322 --> 59:08.156
[SPEAKER_04]: If that visa was granted, when she was questioned by the HSCA, she said, yes, his visa had been granted.
59:08.216 --> 59:15.910
[SPEAKER_04]: They said, did you advise him by mail or phone as to the status of his visa being granted?
59:15.951 --> 59:18.375
[SPEAKER_04]: And he'd be allowed to travel.
59:18.956 --> 59:22.262
[SPEAKER_04]: And she, what all she would say is, I don't remember.
59:22.698 --> 59:27.847
[SPEAKER_04]: There is the possibility that he had been advised that, ask you a reason to problem.
59:28.247 --> 59:31.854
[SPEAKER_04]: Ask you had not managed to hold it up, based on what Duran had said.
59:32.274 --> 59:46.498
[SPEAKER_04]: The interesting thing is I asked hostie about this personally, one point in time, and he told me his FBI buddies had actually found the visa approved visa for travel to Cuba.
59:47.360 --> 59:48.081
[SPEAKER_04]: And I said,
59:48.601 --> 59:51.026
[SPEAKER_04]: But they never that's not on record.
59:51.106 --> 01:00:04.615
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not in the documents and he said, I don't care That's what they told me that yes his visa had indeed been granted which is the same thing to your hands said Wow, what was James hostie like just a quick sidebar?
01:00:04.635 --> 01:00:06.238
[SPEAKER_00]: What was your impression of him?
01:00:06.353 --> 01:00:11.222
[SPEAKER_04]: He, my impression was him was he was pretty straightforward.
01:00:11.803 --> 01:00:16.752
[SPEAKER_04]: He was very upset with the way the FBI had handled him, the way Hoover had handled him.
01:00:17.453 --> 01:00:29.155
[SPEAKER_04]: He said he told me things and said things that his friends in the FBI Mexico City and New Orleans were
01:00:29.135 --> 01:00:47.294
[SPEAKER_04]: new things about Lee Harvey Oswald, and had been monitoring Oswald that they didn't go on record with, Hoover wouldn't like them go on record with, they wouldn't, which absolutely perfectly tallyed with what we found out about Oswald actually being a PSI in New Orleans.
01:00:47.954 --> 01:00:54.501
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I took a Closty as pretty straightforward telling the truth and, and being
01:00:55.139 --> 01:00:56.365
[SPEAKER_04]: badly managed.
01:00:56.606 --> 01:01:03.175
[SPEAKER_04]: I was amazed to find out that hostie when Oswell was arrested in New Orleans.
01:01:04.285 --> 01:01:09.675
[SPEAKER_04]: The FBI reported that to New Orleans to FBI headquarters.
01:01:10.216 --> 01:01:25.686
[SPEAKER_04]: FBI headquarters immediately queried Dallas and hosting and had hosting send this whole background file, which they sent to the CIA in headquarters in DC and which DC sent to Miami.
01:01:27.168 --> 01:01:34.136
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, more evidence that these guys in Miami later lied through their teeth when they said, Nosswell who, okay.
01:01:35.397 --> 01:01:40.202
[SPEAKER_04]: So I found Hosti to be the one thing that I ask him about.
01:01:40.242 --> 01:01:43.666
[SPEAKER_04]: And I ask him about this.
01:01:43.746 --> 01:01:57.141
[SPEAKER_04]: It said, Jim did, you know, what you just told was on one point of Oswell being known and used by the FBR, potentially used by the FBI.
01:01:57.627 --> 01:02:07.002
[SPEAKER_04]: Could you, could you, there's actually a piece of paper that a document that I sent to him, would you, would you certify this document?
01:02:07.503 --> 01:02:08.845
[SPEAKER_04]: And he wouldn't, he wouldn't do it.
01:02:09.085 --> 01:02:10.187
[SPEAKER_04]: He wouldn't do it and writing.
01:02:10.227 --> 01:02:11.429
[SPEAKER_04]: He wouldn't do it on the phone.
01:02:11.449 --> 01:02:16.497
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like he would, I, I passed it to him through his daughter.
01:02:16.544 --> 01:02:34.536
[SPEAKER_04]: and then I call him on the if he's like it didn't wait he would talk about anything other than something that confirmed what he was telling me and writing because he said a lot of pension I think quite frankly and Hoover in the bureau you can't know which you just don't risk your pension.
01:02:34.516 --> 01:02:38.664
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, hey, well, one thing I want to just cut just the time bow on this conversation about the letter.
01:02:38.684 --> 01:02:45.316
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, how would you explain, as well as usage of the word, coast and instead of cost to carve?
01:02:45.897 --> 01:02:55.995
[SPEAKER_00]: And because, well, as he presents it as if that's a secret name and the mere usage of, of KOSTIN demonstrates that Oswald had some sort of operative knowledge.
01:02:56.676 --> 01:02:56.997
[SPEAKER_04]: Well,
01:02:57.128 --> 01:03:12.031
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, first of all, it makes absolutely no sense that anybody would give, as well as secret name for cost to cough, you know, you don't disclose grips, you don't go into disclose aliases and you certainly don't allow that to be used in correspondence.
01:03:12.392 --> 01:03:23.950
[SPEAKER_04]: So that why would, why would, if he names cost to go by his true name and a letter, that's enough, there's no need to play spy games, that's, that's just silliness.
01:03:25.112 --> 01:03:25.212
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
01:03:25.192 --> 01:03:32.323
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's my immediate reaction, you know, that's something woesley might, I don't know.
01:03:32.423 --> 01:03:53.376
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't explain that only that it just, it doesn't make sense for if you want to make this guy as director of the assassinations, your director of assassinations is not sharing a code name
01:03:54.200 --> 01:03:59.108
[SPEAKER_00]: Kostan was not his code name, and then Oswell just got the name wrong.
01:03:59.548 --> 01:04:02.793
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, will Zey took it and ran with it and said, Aha.
01:04:03.695 --> 01:04:08.422
[SPEAKER_04]: Oswell had a, what is his constant with Oswell?
01:04:08.542 --> 01:04:09.965
[SPEAKER_04]: We wouldn't call it dyslexia.
01:04:10.105 --> 01:04:13.390
[SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't want to call it that Oswell is a terrible speller.
01:04:14.112 --> 01:04:15.556
[SPEAKER_04]: Oswell's really bright.
01:04:15.576 --> 01:04:16.478
[SPEAKER_04]: He's a great reader.
01:04:16.919 --> 01:04:20.789
[SPEAKER_04]: When you look at his IQ test and that sort of stuff, he reads well.
01:04:21.531 --> 01:04:25.220
[SPEAKER_04]: He test well in reading and verbally.
01:04:25.681 --> 01:04:29.691
[SPEAKER_04]: It does well in interviews, but his writing is terrible.
01:04:29.671 --> 01:04:47.595
[SPEAKER_04]: uh... he miss fails he gets and it i don't think it is literally miss spelling i think that the speculation is that he's not processing the care so yes i think it's very likely that i mean he's an immediate with this guy uh... he does use uh... the correct name
01:04:47.575 --> 01:04:53.952
[SPEAKER_04]: when he calls back to the Soviet embassy and talks about having met with cost, oh sorry, I'm sorry, he did that.
01:04:54.513 --> 01:04:57.621
[SPEAKER_04]: He calls back and talks about having met with Soviets.
01:04:58.123 --> 01:05:01.652
[SPEAKER_04]: The Soviet person uses the name cost-acquave.
01:05:02.324 --> 01:05:05.508
[SPEAKER_04]: That may be the only time Hartley Harvey Oswell.
01:05:05.588 --> 01:05:07.231
[SPEAKER_04]: Even here's the name cost to Cobb.
01:05:07.731 --> 01:05:12.177
[SPEAKER_04]: When he's writing the letter two months later, does he remember cost to Cobb?
01:05:12.217 --> 01:05:14.280
[SPEAKER_04]: Does he remember cost to him?
01:05:14.460 --> 01:05:15.421
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be memory.
01:05:15.602 --> 01:05:17.704
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be handwriting, I can't say.
01:05:17.725 --> 01:05:19.727
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't find it terribly suspicious.
01:05:20.168 --> 01:05:24.113
[SPEAKER_04]: Given all his other writing mistakes, basically.
01:05:25.122 --> 01:05:38.198
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on to the question of whether or not Lyndon Johnson subjectively believed that there was a Soviet conspiracy going on at the time of the assassination and shortly thereafter.
01:05:38.218 --> 01:05:47.170
[SPEAKER_00]: And then sort of Johnson's, getting into sort of Johnson using this with the Warren Commission, et cetera.
01:05:48.111 --> 01:05:49.172
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
01:05:49.152 --> 01:06:04.157
[SPEAKER_00]: you know post assassination he's he's at park on hospital talking about you know they're being a Soviet conspiracy and you know asking you know what they're gonna get out of there seems like he's all worried about that uh... and then as soon as it which you know it's the
01:06:04.643 --> 01:06:10.613
[SPEAKER_00]: craziness of the day, et cetera, assuming LBJ didn't have four knowledge, which I'm not sure how I feel about that.
01:06:11.254 --> 01:06:23.074
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not an LBJ as a planner guy, that's not me, but I do wouldn't surprise me if someone was like, hey man, just to let him know, because you can have to quarterback the cover up, you know, in the future.
01:06:23.054 --> 01:06:26.639
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, um, I'm saying if they're, if of course there's conspiracy.
01:06:27.320 --> 01:06:31.105
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, then we have LBJ's right handman Cliff Carter.
01:06:31.165 --> 01:06:43.321
[SPEAKER_00]: He's making calls to, uh, Henry Wade, um, to, uh, Wagner Carr, to Jesse Curry, all that night, warning them not to go, you know, down the conspiracy road.
01:06:43.341 --> 01:06:52.032
[SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, and then
01:06:52.012 --> 01:06:59.161
[SPEAKER_00]: which the tape is provably erased, intentionally erased, they still have the artifacts from it.
01:06:59.742 --> 01:07:17.344
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's about 17, I think, minutes, 17 to 18 minutes of tape that is totally gone, but they have the artifacts all the way through, whereas it's like every six seconds, there's like a tenth of a second sound or something like that.
01:07:17.324 --> 01:07:25.363
[SPEAKER_00]: I did the exercise of reading the transcript and would, you know, a reasonable pace and it ended up being about six minutes.
01:07:26.225 --> 01:07:30.114
[SPEAKER_00]: So now, but if you look at the transcript and you try to figure out, okay, where did they cut out?
01:07:30.275 --> 01:07:32.380
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not a super clear cut point.
01:07:32.420 --> 01:07:33.021
[SPEAKER_00]: Although,
01:07:34.081 --> 01:07:39.032
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, anything could be a, I mean, if you take out all the contacts, anything could be a clear cut point.
01:07:39.553 --> 01:07:50.537
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, I say that to say, the headline and the transcript that's what we do have is, you know, Johnson follows up about what about, you know,
01:07:51.260 --> 01:07:55.445
[SPEAKER_00]: Oswald down there at the Soviet embassy and then Hoover says, well, that's the thing.
01:07:55.846 --> 01:08:01.392
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like it was a second person down there because the voice doesn't match and the face doesn't match.
01:08:01.813 --> 01:08:06.699
[SPEAKER_00]: He then thought, and this is what I find to be strange because everybody goes, well, it wasn't that.
01:08:06.979 --> 01:08:07.600
[SPEAKER_00]: It's another thing.
01:08:08.822 --> 01:08:15.810
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I find to be strange is that he follows it up with the written memo to the White House and also to the Secret Service.
01:08:17.112 --> 01:08:20.676
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like this is just a hunch or a vibe.
01:08:20.656 --> 01:08:22.319
[SPEAKER_00]: but then it's never discussed again.
01:08:22.359 --> 01:08:25.003
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like it's brought up and it goes, hey, remember we talked about this?
01:08:25.103 --> 01:08:25.664
[SPEAKER_00]: We were wrong.
01:08:25.904 --> 01:08:26.626
[SPEAKER_00]: It was not that.
01:08:26.786 --> 01:08:28.489
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was weird that we thought that.
01:08:28.529 --> 01:08:29.150
[SPEAKER_00]: That was dumb.
01:08:29.831 --> 01:08:30.752
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
01:08:30.812 --> 01:08:39.306
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also, of course, the audio incident that puts Oswald in Dallas,
01:08:39.286 --> 01:08:48.202
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know there's I believe you and I talked about this before and you had problems with the basically confirming the audio and etc.
01:08:48.543 --> 01:08:51.067
[SPEAKER_00]: But at a minute it looks like someone's in Mac can be wrong.
01:08:51.107 --> 01:09:01.446
[SPEAKER_00]: You can tell me but it looks like someone's trying to impersonate us well at that point if it's not either he's being a person in Mexico City or he's being a person in a Dallas.
01:09:01.426 --> 01:09:08.115
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I guess my question is, um, do you think Oswald was ever impersonated in Mexico City?
01:09:08.175 --> 01:09:11.239
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people, they're, because basically there's three camps.
01:09:11.780 --> 01:09:15.745
[SPEAKER_00]: There's Oswald never went to Mexico City at all.
01:09:15.805 --> 01:09:20.211
[SPEAKER_00]: There's Oswald was there, there's no shenanigans whatsoever.
01:09:20.311 --> 01:09:22.634
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time it says it was Oswald, it was Oswald.
01:09:22.654 --> 01:09:25.037
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the third camp,
01:09:25.017 --> 01:09:53.505
[SPEAKER_00]: which I think is the John Newman Jefferson Morley camp that could be wrong Morley if I'm getting your I know John Newman doesn't watch to this but Morley because if I'm getting your position wrong sorry but the position I think is like I was well did go to Mexico City but he also was impersonated there once because he like before every reason he was he was impersonated on at least one occasion but he did go that's the third position so where do you fall on that
01:09:54.025 --> 01:09:55.627
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, two questions in.
01:09:55.727 --> 01:09:58.750
[SPEAKER_04]: On the first question, Johnson and the Soviets.
01:09:59.831 --> 01:10:03.015
[SPEAKER_04]: Quick answer, Johnson never believed it was the Soviets.
01:10:03.956 --> 01:10:07.880
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson, Johnson would have not.
01:10:08.201 --> 01:10:15.509
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson chose not to talk to his secretary of defense or his military liaison for hours.
01:10:16.189 --> 01:10:18.632
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson, if you look at his war record,
01:10:18.865 --> 01:10:42.493
[SPEAKER_04]: it's not uh... well let's say bravery is not on the record anywhere so i disbelieve the fact that he thought any he was personally at risk or anybody else's at risk uh... really that which is bogus if you read someone would talk i'm making the case in about three chapters or johnson had been approached beforehand
01:10:42.473 --> 01:10:52.291
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, by someone connected with Johnny Roselli, not brought into the conspiracy, but told that he's not going to have to worry about the congressional investigation that's going on.
01:10:52.752 --> 01:10:54.354
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is what he's really worried about.
01:10:55.136 --> 01:11:02.389
[SPEAKER_04]: It won't have to worry about that, but it would be good, you know, if something happens to force all that if he, you know,
01:11:02.369 --> 01:11:06.515
[SPEAKER_04]: basically just shut it down, which is exactly what he did.
01:11:06.615 --> 01:11:09.399
[SPEAKER_04]: But so that's the first question on Mexico City.
01:11:09.700 --> 01:11:10.361
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. Just real quick.
01:11:10.601 --> 01:11:15.909
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that Jack Halfin that is the one that relayed that from Rosalie to LBJ?
01:11:17.010 --> 01:11:17.871
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it was.
01:11:18.252 --> 01:11:27.946
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, his was Rosalie's basically representative in DC was a consultant, political consultant.
01:11:28.226 --> 01:11:32.072
[SPEAKER_04]: I should remember the name, but it wasn't helper.
01:11:32.052 --> 01:11:39.046
[SPEAKER_04]: They, uh, no, not Davidson, um, oh, darn he, the guy lived like a block away from Hoover.
01:11:39.267 --> 01:11:41.030
[SPEAKER_04]: He was that scale.
01:11:41.090 --> 01:11:46.922
[SPEAKER_04]: He, he and Bobby Baker actually had a meeting with in Johnson's office.
01:11:47.071 --> 01:11:59.415
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, if it had gone into the Baker scandal record, I found it, and Johnson's many notes, he would have been dead meat, basically for that whole scandal, but back to your question.
01:12:01.599 --> 01:12:07.611
[SPEAKER_04]: What we present in the Oswald Hotel is Oswald was at Odeos.
01:12:07.591 --> 01:12:20.462
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's one of the keys to the whole conspiracy, which we just elaborated on in the two chapters that we added to the paper back edition that just shipped as to why that's the key to the conspiracy.
01:12:22.404 --> 01:12:36.636
[SPEAKER_04]: John Oswell was impersonated in Mexico City by the CIA itself with a pretext call because they're
01:12:36.616 --> 01:12:40.080
[SPEAKER_04]: Soviet embassies is because they don't know who he is.
01:12:40.180 --> 01:12:45.386
[SPEAKER_04]: They've intercepted calls saying there's American there.
01:12:45.446 --> 01:12:48.970
[SPEAKER_04]: The Cube is talking about him, Durans talking about him, who is he?
01:12:49.351 --> 01:13:04.648
[SPEAKER_04]: Standard practice, which I document that they used all the time, was to do a pretext call representing themselves as the person, trying to get information from the embassy to name
01:13:04.628 --> 01:13:29.798
[SPEAKER_04]: But then afterwards, the CIA had to cover that up for a variety of reasons, ending up in the fact that the CIA had to tell the House Select Committee that everything that the terrasaws, the interpreters were telling them about a suppressed transcript, that Philus was telling them that they should, the HSCA should not take anything that Philips said as viable.
01:13:30.459 --> 01:13:32.982
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's the guy who's in charge of all of this.
01:13:32.962 --> 01:13:41.294
[SPEAKER_04]: it's so stupid like they can't he's telling them this stuff occurred and they're going ignore him isn't that what he's talking about.
01:13:42.756 --> 01:13:52.489
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're saying so Oswald you said did meet Odio you think that was him and then he and then what the timeline is such that he could then also go to
01:13:52.672 --> 01:14:20.569
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the timeline is so iffy over the space of three or four days, especially with the presumption the official story of how he got to Mexico City by bus isn't necessarily all true, which I do not believe there are lots of holes in that timeline.
01:14:20.735 --> 01:14:47.670
[SPEAKER_04]: there's plenty of time for all those meetings and to get him across the border and you still got the the border agent report who within 24 hours was quoted by the press of saying oh yeah i i passedly as well through the checkpoint he was driven through with these two guys yeah not the oh well that's not exactly a bus trip is it um and you never heard from the man again i think it's great it's like he disappears but
01:14:47.650 --> 01:14:53.789
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I think the audio story is true and very critical, especially given who her uncle was.
01:14:53.810 --> 01:14:57.441
[SPEAKER_04]: The only person who would have had her telephone number.
01:14:57.607 --> 01:15:10.161
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's the same guy who had been in the courtroom with the Harvey Oswald in New Orleans just weeks earlier but so Johnson, I don't trust him.
01:15:10.181 --> 01:15:26.398
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson of Borts conspiracy because he knows it's in his best interest and Yes, Oswald was impersonated but by the CIA for reasons they later chose to cover up Which are extreme we we going to extreme detail in the book
01:15:26.817 --> 01:15:32.251
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, I, I owe you a, hopefully you'll come back on again once I, once I've read through the Oswell puzzle from pro start to finish because I, I look for it to do in that.
01:15:32.311 --> 01:15:40.692
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let me just ask you them with Johnson, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do
01:15:42.055 --> 01:15:55.197
[SPEAKER_00]: This Hoover call makes it seem like Johnson's understanding should be that, you know, where it's left is that Oswald's impersonated there.
01:15:55.878 --> 01:16:01.127
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, hey, it wasn't Oswald meeting with the Soviets.
01:16:01.107 --> 01:16:13.179
[SPEAKER_00]: because you just told the Hoover just told me it wasn't that, but then he's we got the recording with Richard Russell almost famously, where he's saying, you know, let me tell you about a little incident in Mexico City, the Hoover told me about.
01:16:13.679 --> 01:16:16.362
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Hoover told you that that incident was false.
01:16:17.262 --> 01:16:30.355
[SPEAKER_00]: So so either something else happened to some other time and he said all that thing and he kind of told, you know, told him it wasn't the case afterwards,
01:16:30.740 --> 01:16:40.576
[SPEAKER_00]: or LBJ knew that that was a lie yet he used it because he knew that it was convincing to get people to do what he wanted.
01:16:40.616 --> 01:16:41.878
[SPEAKER_00]: So what's your take on that?
01:16:42.699 --> 01:16:54.418
[SPEAKER_04]: My take is that the part of the conversation I think that's most important is perhaps not even it's Hoover saying it appears that Oswell was associated with other people.
01:16:55.951 --> 01:17:01.456
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, he's impersonated, but, you know, that doesn't mean that he wasn't in Mexico City.
01:17:01.596 --> 01:17:05.719
[SPEAKER_04]: It means somebody's impersonated him on, which is all Hoover knew at that point in time.
01:17:06.300 --> 01:17:06.940
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is true.
01:17:07.981 --> 01:17:10.083
[SPEAKER_04]: If I'm right about that pretext call.
01:17:10.603 --> 01:17:18.310
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think the real ticker for Johnson is that Hoover is bringing up conspiracy.
01:17:19.311 --> 01:17:25.536
[SPEAKER_04]: Hoover, when the Warren Commission, the FBI makes its report.
01:17:26.022 --> 01:17:37.801
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson, if they could include some language that they're still investigating Cuban involvement in a conspiracy with Oswald, Johnson pushes back, because no, you can't do that.
01:17:38.402 --> 01:17:48.779
[SPEAKER_04]: Hoover asked Hoover twice asked him to include something about conspiracy that, you know, where we're looking into it, Johnson's not accepting anything about conspiracy.
01:17:49.060 --> 01:17:51.203
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think, um,
01:17:51.183 --> 01:18:20.413
[SPEAKER_04]: what what that call is about is Hoover is telling Johnson something Johnson really didn't want to hear because he's busy as you said with calls from Carter that night before he is busy going to be doing everything he can to suppress any discussion of conspiracy and what's missing out of that call I suspect as you remember that by the next morning at about 10 o'clock Hoover issues a memo which essentially closes the case
01:18:20.562 --> 01:18:36.148
[SPEAKER_04]: and directs everyone, if you're interviewing anyone with a lead or anyone who might be suspected, other than someone directly associated with Leah Arioswald who can offer testimony as to his guilt, we don't want to hear it.
01:18:36.248 --> 01:18:36.668
[SPEAKER_04]: We're done.
01:18:36.709 --> 01:18:45.523
[SPEAKER_04]: And then next afternoon, he tells someone to write a report
01:18:45.858 --> 01:18:58.091
[SPEAKER_04]: This is all part of Johnson essentially telling him, I suspect he told him on the phone, just to stop it, you know, we need to focus on, on him, we don't need to focus on these other people.
01:18:58.651 --> 01:19:02.055
[SPEAKER_04]: We need to focus on, and Johnson starts to deliver his thing.
01:19:02.415 --> 01:19:04.257
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to face a war with the Soviets.
01:19:04.797 --> 01:19:05.979
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to make things, you know.
01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:13.266
[SPEAKER_04]: I think what's missing, and Hoover's, you know, being erasable in his own terms,
01:19:13.246 --> 01:19:21.781
[SPEAKER_04]: tries to avoid that for a while and say, would you let at least let me bring the Cubans into it and Johnson's going no, not not that either, but.
01:19:23.744 --> 01:19:25.708
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that each of your question.
01:19:25.728 --> 01:19:27.030
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that does that does.
01:19:27.451 --> 01:19:34.663
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so basically, I mean, would you so it's safe to say that Johnson knew that if what.
01:19:34.643 --> 01:19:46.628
[SPEAKER_00]: Regardless of whether or not Oswald was impersonated, Johnson knew that it wasn't true that Oswald had met with the head of assassinations and was a threat, but he used that anyway.
01:19:47.129 --> 01:19:50.316
[SPEAKER_04]: He used that anyway, just like he used 40 million dead.
01:19:50.336 --> 01:19:54.745
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he went to the trouble to call the chairman of the AEC.
01:19:55.163 --> 01:20:02.669
[SPEAKER_04]: to get an estimate of how many dead and a first strike from the Soviets to use with informing the war.
01:20:03.272 --> 01:20:05.680
[SPEAKER_04]: Johnson was playing that card.
01:20:06.233 --> 01:20:25.896
[SPEAKER_04]: the chief chief justice former chief justice does not leave johnson's office in tears without johnson having said something very compelling to this the fix was in i i just i'll go on record being contrary and we we constantly get led astray by saying you know by
01:20:25.876 --> 01:20:31.305
[SPEAKER_04]: The conspiracy in the cover-up may be connected via Johnson, but that's all.
01:20:31.866 --> 01:20:39.398
[SPEAKER_04]: Their Johnson's goal was to quash any sign of conspiracy, and he was very effective at that.
01:20:39.958 --> 01:20:40.159
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
01:20:40.660 --> 01:20:49.133
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he wanted to have a presidency, because he wanted to, actually, he wanted to preside over something other than just the nuclear ashes that would be left.
01:20:49.450 --> 01:20:50.271
[SPEAKER_00]: stuff.
01:20:50.291 --> 01:20:52.475
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, let's thank you for your time.
01:20:52.555 --> 01:20:55.480
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been you've been with me for a while and appreciate it.
01:20:55.500 --> 01:20:58.285
[SPEAKER_00]: We just got a few more things to cover here.
01:20:58.305 --> 01:21:07.801
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about some of the things that have come out from the new Russian document disclosure, the one that Congresswoman Luna got from the Russians.
01:21:08.262 --> 01:21:10.446
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, the disclaimer is
01:21:10.426 --> 01:21:15.794
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, Russia's our current geopolitical phone, we're engaged in an armed conflict.
01:21:16.856 --> 01:21:25.108
[SPEAKER_00]: I asked, I asked Claude if I could call the Ukraine a proxy war, and it said that it's not exactly that, and I should call it something else.
01:21:25.509 --> 01:21:32.619
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, the point is, Ukraine is being backed financially by the United States and against the Soviets.
01:21:32.679 --> 01:21:36.585
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it gets Russia, and they're the ones giving us this information.
01:21:36.565 --> 01:21:42.955
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, probably in the context of like, hey, look, we did nice things before working together.
01:21:43.516 --> 01:21:45.740
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of a reminder of what we can do again.
01:21:45.780 --> 01:21:56.717
[SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of what the analysts have said, which I find hilarious because it's like, I mean, that harkens back to a time when people like red books and like poetry and like thought.
01:21:56.697 --> 01:22:20.173
[SPEAKER_00]: nobody cares about anything from the past at all the idea that anyone would have like empathy or like care about someone or what someone did before like and what the symbolism is like hello well that is those days are gone anyway so yeah what I wanted to get at though is some of the main findings so the first one probably the headline
01:22:20.153 --> 01:22:23.339
[SPEAKER_00]: The dear Mr Hunt letter, we can put it to bed.
01:22:23.379 --> 01:22:23.940
[SPEAKER_00]: It's over.
01:22:24.080 --> 01:22:27.927
[SPEAKER_00]: It's officially a provocation from the KGB.
01:22:27.947 --> 01:22:33.216
[SPEAKER_00]: And the whole question was, hey, is this HL Hunter?
01:22:33.236 --> 01:22:34.278
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this E Howard Hunt?
01:22:34.679 --> 01:22:37.704
[SPEAKER_00]: Which was kind of funny, because the KGB didn't really see that coming.
01:22:37.724 --> 01:22:41.090
[SPEAKER_00]: They thought it was going to be E Howard Hunt, that everyone would obviously think it was.
01:22:42.312 --> 01:22:42.853
[SPEAKER_00]: But
01:22:42.833 --> 01:22:46.201
[SPEAKER_00]: The December 1960 letter was intercepted by the KGB.
01:22:46.281 --> 01:22:52.937
[SPEAKER_00]: We now have that letter and they just took some of the phrases from that letter to make the dear Mr. Hunt letter.
01:22:52.997 --> 01:23:00.775
[SPEAKER_00]: What is your assessment of what that means, I guess, because you can kind of look at that and go, well,
01:23:01.531 --> 01:23:02.632
[SPEAKER_00]: You could look at it in a couple of different ways.
01:23:02.652 --> 01:23:17.071
[SPEAKER_00]: You could go, well, obviously Oswald killed Kennedy and here's the KGB just trolling to make, you know, just to sort of inject this information and make the CIA look bad.
01:23:17.111 --> 01:23:23.539
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you could say, well, the CIA had some sort of involvement and, you know, doesn't have totally clean hands.
01:23:24.180 --> 01:23:30.508
[SPEAKER_00]: And here's their nemesis pointing out their lack of clean hands and trying to raise, you know,
01:23:30.488 --> 01:23:36.823
[SPEAKER_00]: bring attention to it even though what they're doing is is, you know, tricky and not legit, their methodology of doing that.
01:23:37.065 --> 01:23:38.372
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you look at that?
01:23:40.360 --> 01:23:43.985
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe that is all intelligence agencies love just information.
01:23:44.505 --> 01:23:47.730
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like in the handbook, it's what we do, you know.
01:23:47.970 --> 01:23:51.014
[SPEAKER_04]: And we always want to point fingers at the other guy.
01:23:51.555 --> 01:23:54.118
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's just, it's in the booklet.
01:23:54.178 --> 01:23:56.401
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what we do, you know, here's your task.
01:23:56.421 --> 01:23:59.145
[SPEAKER_04]: There's somebody in propaganda that's waiting to do that.
01:23:59.665 --> 01:24:01.728
[SPEAKER_04]: The CIA did it, the Russians did it.
01:24:02.289 --> 01:24:07.195
[SPEAKER_04]: I think, as you said, it's certainly, although I will say Mary Farrell told me,
01:24:07.175 --> 01:24:17.809
[SPEAKER_04]: 20 years ago that when she was looking at the hunt letter she had sent a couple of people to Mexico City just with the address on the postage or it was stamped.
01:24:17.849 --> 01:24:31.928
[SPEAKER_04]: What post office it was sent from and the fact that it was in two with in two blocks of the Soviet embassy suggested her you know okay but yeah we can put that to bed.
01:24:32.488 --> 01:24:34.431
[SPEAKER_04]: I think the the
01:24:35.913 --> 01:24:47.003
[SPEAKER_04]: The more important thing about this is the information I think that we can trust out of the Soviet files is the information that tidbits got back in the 90s.
01:24:47.405 --> 01:24:59.881
[SPEAKER_04]: when there was a detot, when the Russians were opening up their files and they really didn't care that the KGB had gone away this before the FSB succeeded the KGB.
01:25:00.322 --> 01:25:03.226
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's a transition time then was like, we don't care.
01:25:03.706 --> 01:25:12.518
[SPEAKER_04]: We're going to be capitalist, we're going to be buddies, if you want to, and tidbits got just a ton of internal documentation on how
01:25:12.498 --> 01:25:17.075
[SPEAKER_04]: the KGB handled Oswald, how the Polet Bureau handled Oswald.
01:25:17.517 --> 01:25:21.732
[SPEAKER_04]: Because frankly, he was more of a political embarrassment for them.
01:25:21.830 --> 01:25:22.812
[SPEAKER_04]: then anything else.
01:25:23.473 --> 01:25:34.209
[SPEAKER_04]: So basically, I would say I trust for real insight into Oswell, I would trust the files that he got and wrote about and references in his book more than what we're seeing now.
01:25:35.010 --> 01:25:50.554
[SPEAKER_04]: And nobody got, he got actually, he got some files talking about the KGB surveillance on Oswell and Mansk, which is not in anything that we were given
01:25:52.323 --> 01:26:06.657
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I want to talk about another document that's in this release, which we already knew about this, because it's, I mean, I became more of it from reading David Talbot's brothers.
01:26:07.138 --> 01:26:22.313
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's the story of William Walton going over in December of 1963 and talking with Bolshikov, basically carrying a message, going as an emissary on behalf of Bobby Kennedy
01:26:22.478 --> 01:26:41.107
[SPEAKER_00]: It's out, you know, really, he already had a schedule trip over there, and he was already planning to go to Moscow, so it's not like Bobby Kennedy sent him, but it seems to also be true that this was like one of JFK's best friends, like he was close with Kennedy, Walton.
01:26:41.507 --> 01:26:42.629
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe he was in his wedding.
01:26:43.030 --> 01:26:47.777
[SPEAKER_00]: Walton goes over Miesland Bolshevikov, and he tells him that, uh,
01:26:47.757 --> 01:26:53.119
[SPEAKER_00]: that undoubtedly the assassination was the result of a large political conspiracy.
01:26:53.702 --> 01:26:57.919
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's not totally clear.
01:26:59.030 --> 01:27:07.963
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, whether or not that part of the conversation came from RFK, like, did RFK tell me to tell you that he thinks this?
01:27:08.524 --> 01:27:10.327
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is it me saying that I think this?
01:27:11.108 --> 01:27:20.722
[SPEAKER_00]: But even William Walton, who is that close to the Kennedy regardless of whether or not it's sanctioned by RFK and Jackie, probably Jackie didn't sanction him to say that, I would imagine.
01:27:21.042 --> 01:27:28.193
[SPEAKER_00]: But maybe RFK
01:27:28.173 --> 01:27:49.776
[SPEAKER_04]: what's your take on that interaction um two things i don't think it was as you say i don't think it was a specific message being he's not sent to deliver this message it's a conversation and he's a ask a question you know who's not going to be talking about this right you just came from dc what's the what's the gossip um
01:27:50.043 --> 01:27:56.412
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't think there was, there were very few people, I think, in Washington, DC, insiders.
01:27:56.552 --> 01:27:58.494
[SPEAKER_04]: There are a few people inside the CIA.
01:27:58.935 --> 01:28:03.882
[SPEAKER_04]: There are a few people almost anywhere that didn't think there was a conspiracy.
01:28:04.502 --> 01:28:07.166
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you can talk to just about anybody.
01:28:07.206 --> 01:28:19.122
[SPEAKER_04]: They might point you in different directions, but they saw it as a politically oriented regime change, whatever you want to call it.
01:28:19.102 --> 01:28:25.631
[SPEAKER_04]: that RFK thought that because he had his personal friends start doing investigations on who it might be.
01:28:26.473 --> 01:28:32.201
[SPEAKER_04]: So, we know if RFK thought or he told that to Walters or not, almost doesn't matter.
01:28:32.241 --> 01:28:35.265
[SPEAKER_04]: It would be the conversation that was in play.
01:28:35.926 --> 01:28:38.630
[SPEAKER_04]: There's every reason to think that Jackie felt that way.
01:28:39.291 --> 01:28:43.797
[SPEAKER_04]: If so, the Manchester interviews would still not be suppressed.
01:28:44.198 --> 01:28:45.700
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the biggest...
01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:52.689
[SPEAKER_04]: smoking gun, you've got right now is what Jackie Kennedy told Manchester that that estate won't release.
01:28:53.671 --> 01:28:56.115
[SPEAKER_04]: That forget everything else that Luna is doing.
01:28:56.635 --> 01:29:03.026
[SPEAKER_04]: Jackie's suspicions were probably right on target and I do not believe that in any event.
01:29:03.046 --> 01:29:08.835
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think the Walter's saying is just it reflects the fact honestly that
01:29:09.912 --> 01:29:35.245
[SPEAKER_04]: there was a general knowledge that there was some sort of conspiracy employee that almost nobody really wanted to reveal, you know, we're we're embarrassed, we're we're in shock, we're it's better not to know, you know, it's almost like don't tell the kids there's no Santa cause, we thought we had an open democratic form of government, we don't, okay, we missed it, um, yeah, everybody,
01:29:36.187 --> 01:29:38.109
[SPEAKER_04]: you just didn't want to say that in public.
01:29:38.129 --> 01:29:39.069
[SPEAKER_04]: You didn't want to admit it.
01:29:39.090 --> 01:29:44.354
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is why we come up with all the, oh, I knew this, but I didn't tell it to the warrant commission.
01:29:45.455 --> 01:29:47.877
[SPEAKER_04]: Because the family didn't want me to go into it.
01:29:47.957 --> 01:29:50.019
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's better that we just let it lie.
01:29:50.119 --> 01:29:53.042
[SPEAKER_04]: JFK's AIDS, his friends will tell you that.
01:29:53.562 --> 01:29:57.526
[SPEAKER_04]: That they, yeah, I did, did we see evidence of a shot from the front?
01:29:57.566 --> 01:30:06.193
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but, you know, it was just, it was not something, it was bad enough at the
01:30:06.173 --> 01:30:14.192
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, one last discussion point here, which is Bill Truzdale, you ever heard him?
01:30:14.459 --> 01:30:19.704
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a guy who is obscure, a very obscure figure, brand new, brand new in the game.
01:30:21.205 --> 01:30:42.964
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a guy who died in 2025 and he shared his diary with his state, his caregiver, shared his diary with Jefferson Morley who went through it and wrote a story on how Truzdale
01:30:42.944 --> 01:30:58.430
[SPEAKER_00]: in 1959, true state was going to Afghanistan for some archeology trip, and the headline is that Oswald told him he was going to visit the Soviet Union for five days, then he was going to start college and a college in Switzerland.
01:30:59.111 --> 01:31:07.365
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, to me, I look at that, and I go, Albert Switzer College, the home of you know,
01:31:07.345 --> 01:31:23.610
[SPEAKER_00]: personal will brandage the chief funder who's, you know, according to the New York Times up to his eyeballs with the CIA's, one of the OG owners of southern air transport, which eventually was sold to my backyard of Columbus, Ohio, of the less Westerner and the Jeffrey Epstein, eventually.
01:31:23.971 --> 01:31:28.037
[SPEAKER_00]: So long story short, um, uh,
01:31:28.017 --> 01:31:36.390
[SPEAKER_00]: The question is why is Oswald like I'm just trying to get your take on what's happening there because Oswald wasn't going to Albert Schweitzer College.
01:31:36.770 --> 01:31:39.254
[SPEAKER_00]: He's lying to a person.
01:31:39.274 --> 01:31:44.062
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't even know what's the point of lying and what's the value of lying I guess.
01:31:44.642 --> 01:31:56.100
[SPEAKER_00]: And also while we're talking about it, what was up with Albert Schweitzer College if it wasn't
01:31:56.182 --> 01:31:58.246
[SPEAKER_00]: fake reason to go over the Soviet Union.
01:31:58.967 --> 01:31:59.548
[SPEAKER_04]: This is great.
01:31:59.568 --> 01:32:01.571
[SPEAKER_04]: This is where you get another chance to be contrarian.
01:32:01.952 --> 01:32:02.813
[SPEAKER_04]: He wasn't lying.
01:32:03.134 --> 01:32:04.136
[SPEAKER_04]: He was telling the truth.
01:32:05.338 --> 01:32:11.288
[SPEAKER_04]: We go into great detail in that in the book, the reason, the reason, Oswald,
01:32:12.820 --> 01:32:25.219
[SPEAKER_04]: If you look at his application, the Albert Schweizer, if you look at written application, what he wants to major in, the course he's going to take, so on and so forth, it's perfectly consistent with what Oslo's personal agenda is.
01:32:25.660 --> 01:32:26.642
[SPEAKER_04]: What he wants to study.
01:32:26.942 --> 01:32:27.984
[SPEAKER_04]: He wants to be a writer.
01:32:28.024 --> 01:32:30.728
[SPEAKER_04]: He wants to get into international.
01:32:30.708 --> 01:32:37.341
[SPEAKER_04]: global politics and it's the same sort of stuff he will be writing about in the spring of 1963.
01:32:38.042 --> 01:32:41.309
[SPEAKER_04]: It's absolutely consistent with that.
01:32:41.329 --> 01:32:47.721
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing is he had enrolled to start an Albert Spritzer in the spring.
01:32:48.562 --> 01:32:50.966
[SPEAKER_04]: the fall is still still in the Marines.
01:32:51.326 --> 01:32:56.635
[SPEAKER_04]: So he's going to go into Albert Switzer the spring after he gets out.
01:32:56.675 --> 01:32:58.778
[SPEAKER_04]: He's the list, the listman is up in the fall.
01:32:59.098 --> 01:32:59.399
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:32:59.940 --> 01:33:01.382
[SPEAKER_04]: So that makes perfect sense.
01:33:01.422 --> 01:33:03.946
[SPEAKER_04]: He'll be out for a couple of months who go to Albert Switzer.
01:33:03.966 --> 01:33:04.587
[SPEAKER_04]: Go to college.
01:33:05.268 --> 01:33:13.000
[SPEAKER_04]: Then he gets a letter saying or then he goes home on leave and find out his mom's been injured and it's not working anymore.
01:33:13.267 --> 01:33:42.885
[SPEAKER_04]: he immediately puts in he starts sending money to her puts in for an early discharge and gets it okay so suddenly he's at home six months early he has nothing to do uh... he really wants to go if you know he wants to go to europe he wanted to travel in europe he want to go to Germany uh... he's got a German language book that he's studying continuing study
01:33:42.865 --> 01:33:44.849
[SPEAKER_04]: basically.
01:33:44.870 --> 01:33:46.152
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it injured anymore?
01:33:46.233 --> 01:33:47.997
[SPEAKER_04]: She can go back to work, okay?
01:33:48.518 --> 01:33:52.407
[SPEAKER_04]: So, all right, and he doesn't really like his mother anyway.
01:33:52.627 --> 01:33:58.360
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we got to be honest about that if you go into Oswell, he and she never got along very well.
01:33:58.340 --> 01:33:59.421
[SPEAKER_04]: So what's he going to do?
01:33:59.501 --> 01:34:00.603
[SPEAKER_04]: Is he going to stay home?
01:34:01.083 --> 01:34:02.265
[SPEAKER_04]: Or is he going to go ahead?
01:34:02.665 --> 01:34:06.309
[SPEAKER_04]: And so what he does is he tells mom, he's going to New Orleans.
01:34:06.329 --> 01:34:13.177
[SPEAKER_04]: He's going to go back and look for a job and the import export business where he was a runner and a career before.
01:34:13.698 --> 01:34:15.620
[SPEAKER_04]: And instead he books trip overseas.
01:34:16.021 --> 01:34:18.844
[SPEAKER_04]: And so he is going to go to Russia because he wants to see Russia.
01:34:19.324 --> 01:34:20.426
[SPEAKER_04]: He's interested in Russia.
01:34:20.446 --> 01:34:22.508
[SPEAKER_04]: He's reading Russian literature.
01:34:22.488 --> 01:34:27.878
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think his statement on the train was absolutely true, uh, he goes to Russia.
01:34:28.199 --> 01:34:34.370
[SPEAKER_04]: He intends to stay in Russia for, you know, the extent of his, his tourist visa is concerned.
01:34:34.691 --> 01:34:38.117
[SPEAKER_04]: And then he's going to go back and start to school at Albert's Wiser.
01:34:38.097 --> 01:34:41.345
[SPEAKER_04]: While he's in Russia, some things start to happen to him.
01:34:41.826 --> 01:34:46.337
[SPEAKER_04]: First, he gets turned on to a couple of interest girls, okay?
01:34:47.059 --> 01:34:54.216
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, and he starts going, you know, this is interesting, and they're taking good care of me, and...
01:34:54.550 --> 01:35:01.343
[SPEAKER_04]: then things happen, you know, the Russians themselves say, no, you can't over see, we're not going to extend your visa.
01:35:01.563 --> 01:35:05.350
[SPEAKER_04]: You've got to go home and here's your train ticket, by the way, get out of here.
01:35:05.771 --> 01:35:06.152
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
01:35:07.574 --> 01:35:12.323
[SPEAKER_04]: And Oswell is the type of person is, if you tell Oswell what not to do,
01:35:13.383 --> 01:35:14.505
[SPEAKER_04]: us will want to do it.
01:35:15.806 --> 01:35:21.995
[SPEAKER_04]: If he will talk to his Marine commanders, look at his lieutenant statements, all you've got to do is tell us will not to do something.
01:35:22.716 --> 01:35:24.619
[SPEAKER_04]: We've all known those kinds of people, right?
01:35:25.120 --> 01:35:27.904
[SPEAKER_04]: So us will decide he's going to stay in the Soviet Union.
01:35:27.924 --> 01:35:28.845
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you very much.
01:35:29.686 --> 01:35:33.552
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though they don't want him, and even though they've not used him,
01:35:34.679 --> 01:35:41.058
[SPEAKER_04]: He made himself available as a propaganda factor, saying he would speak out against the U.S.
01:35:41.539 --> 01:35:48.520
[SPEAKER_04]: But he said that to U.S. media, not to Russian media, the Russians never even did what they did with every other defector.
01:35:49.175 --> 01:35:51.559
[SPEAKER_04]: who they put in a task and let him make formals.
01:35:51.619 --> 01:35:52.821
[SPEAKER_04]: They never did that with us.
01:35:52.841 --> 01:35:54.143
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, they want to get rid of this guy.
01:35:54.644 --> 01:35:55.485
[SPEAKER_04]: He's our noxious.
01:35:56.647 --> 01:36:00.834
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think Oswell was actually telling the truth when he was on the train.
01:36:01.575 --> 01:36:03.217
[SPEAKER_04]: Oswell being very situational.
01:36:03.798 --> 01:36:05.761
[SPEAKER_04]: He just got in rush and things happened.
01:36:06.042 --> 01:36:09.327
[SPEAKER_04]: And he didn't end up going to Albert Switzer like he planned.
01:36:10.555 --> 01:36:38.436
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, yeah, it's the perspective you have is one that's one you always find in the JFK Respirarch world, just because a lot of people that study the case see Oswald as having some level of involvement, nobody thinks he's like James Bond, but I think it's also possible that what you're saying, maybe the intelligence agencies were
01:36:38.703 --> 01:36:47.137
[SPEAKER_00]: using him as sort of a useful idiot, a tool, et cetera, but perhaps unwittingly to him, just because of what he was into.
01:36:47.177 --> 01:37:03.445
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I'm fully on board, but I will say that, like I was telling you before we started recording, you're one of the most respected authors among the people that I'm friends with in the community, and people who's opinions, I respect.
01:37:03.425 --> 01:37:09.299
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to look forward to reading reading the new edition of the Oswald puzzle.
01:37:09.580 --> 01:37:11.103
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of glad I didn't get the first one.
01:37:11.143 --> 01:37:12.547
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I'm being rewarded.
01:37:13.509 --> 01:37:14.772
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, because I probably would have bought a second one.
01:37:14.992 --> 01:37:17.017
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, everybody picked that up.
01:37:17.077 --> 01:37:21.147
[SPEAKER_00]: Go back, read Larry Hancock's books, and
01:37:21.127 --> 01:37:38.697
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, look, everything's based in the documents, so if you disagree, disagree, but I think it's good that you're out there and you're putting forth evidence backed conclusion, so appreciate your work and your work for a long time on this case.
01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:40.922
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I appreciate that.
01:37:41.043 --> 01:37:45.390
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're getting it, make sure you get the second edition is the paper back edition.
01:37:46.872 --> 01:37:53.243
[SPEAKER_04]: Eventually, then two new chapters will be put on to the Kindle, but not right off, but it's the paper back edition.
01:37:53.423 --> 01:37:54.745
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, it's.
01:37:54.961 --> 01:37:56.263
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a different view.
01:37:56.403 --> 01:38:13.528
[SPEAKER_04]: I admit that, but the point is, David and I both feel that there's been there's two been too much effort put to force Oswald into various positions and not let Oswald just be Oswald and say, okay, if Oswald is just Oswald, how does this play?
01:38:14.209 --> 01:38:15.692
[SPEAKER_04]: That's just a different view.
01:38:15.852 --> 01:38:19.237
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't swear to it being true, but it's pretty consistent.
01:38:19.397 --> 01:38:22.842
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess that is if you just let Oswald be Oswald.
01:38:22.822 --> 01:38:25.647
[SPEAKER_04]: Oswell agenda Oswell's personal agenda.
01:38:25.687 --> 01:38:26.328
[SPEAKER_04]: Think about this.
01:38:26.769 --> 01:38:28.051
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a guy who's a Marine.
01:38:28.812 --> 01:38:29.734
[SPEAKER_04]: He's very literate.
01:38:29.774 --> 01:38:30.815
[SPEAKER_04]: He's very well read.
01:38:30.835 --> 01:38:32.218
[SPEAKER_04]: He's got a solid IQ.
01:38:33.079 --> 01:38:34.241
[SPEAKER_04]: He's very combated.
01:38:34.381 --> 01:38:36.244
[SPEAKER_04]: Demorn Shield said he was a prodo hippie.
01:38:36.765 --> 01:38:37.006
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
01:38:37.246 --> 01:38:42.194
[SPEAKER_04]: So he's outside the establishment and he decides he wants to get involved.
01:38:42.214 --> 01:38:43.196
[SPEAKER_04]: He wants to go to Russia.
01:38:43.236 --> 01:38:44.458
[SPEAKER_04]: He wants to go to Cuba.
01:38:44.438 --> 01:38:49.684
[SPEAKER_04]: It would be insane not to think that the intelligence agencies would not see an opportunity.
01:38:49.804 --> 01:38:55.491
[SPEAKER_04]: And the deniability works best when the people you're using don't know that they're being used.
01:38:55.791 --> 01:38:57.533
[SPEAKER_04]: That makes it perfectly deniable.
01:38:57.613 --> 01:39:03.820
[SPEAKER_04]: So we should have probably called it perfect deniability or something, but hey, thanks for having me back on.
01:39:04.221 --> 01:39:06.143
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a great discussion.
01:39:06.308 --> 01:39:07.009
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
01:39:07.089 --> 01:39:07.370
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:39:07.410 --> 01:39:12.458
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, um, the next thing we have coming up on solving JFK is Cuba.
01:39:13.140 --> 01:39:31.050
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be diving into Cuba and Fidel Castro as a potential, uh, culprits is separate from the conversation of Cuban exiles, which I'm going to take a four-month hiatus after we print
01:39:31.030 --> 01:39:34.841
[SPEAKER_00]: gonna have a little take a little bit of relaxation, but mostly reading and research.
01:39:34.861 --> 01:39:35.703
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, hey, thanks again.
01:39:35.864 --> 01:39:41.078
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'd love to have you on again once I get through, once I get through the Osmole puzzle.
01:39:42.482 --> 01:39:42.683
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
01:39:42.703 --> 01:39:43.344
[SPEAKER_00]: Appreciate it.
01:39:43.786 --> 01:39:44.528
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks a lot.
01:39:44.548 --> 01:39:44.989
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.