Why Understanding Reality Isn’t Enough | Igor Kufayev

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Language: en
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My firstborn daughter dies in a car
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accident age of six and that shakes of
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course the entire ground of
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of everything I knew believed of myself
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and and of course it impacted all the um
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all the family and my mother turned
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religious literally overnight seeing the
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David's figure for the first time there
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is a touch some touch of not just
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decadence there's almost touch of
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pornography Uh what do I want
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truly? Do I want now to understand
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being or do I want to experience it
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directly?
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Do I want to have some kind of onlogical
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overview
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or do I want to have a communion? I
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realized that I cannot remove the term
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artist from my CV from my biography.
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So even now artist precedes [music]
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spiritual guide or spiritual teacher and
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if you ask me why well that's the it's
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long meandering response that because I
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consider myself to be an artist have
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always been and to me I don't care what
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Plato said this is the very very essence
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of consciousness
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>> [music]
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>> Solomon and Smith.
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>> Welcome to Solomon and Smith. I'm Jack
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Competer. That's Milo Garner. Neither
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one of us is Solomon or Smith, but
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together we are Solomon and Smith.
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You're about to listen to a conversation
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between the two of us and Igor Kufv.
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Igor is an an artist comespiritual
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guide. He was born in Usbekistsan during
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uh the Soviet era where he received a
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classical artistic education. He was
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always um a lover of all things
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classical, of all things uh Greek. Uh
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he's a lover of mannerism, of the high
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renaissance. It's how he received his uh
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training. In 1989, just before the
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collapse of the Soviet Union, he moved
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to London and for around 10 years made a
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living and had quite a bit of success as
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a visual artist. In his mid-30s at a
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transcendental meditation course, Kofv
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experienced what he describes as a
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profound alteration of consciousness.
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After which he could no longer paint. He
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could no longer engage in art making.
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After a period of limbo, Ego decided to
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go out into the world as a spiritual
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guide. He's part of a spiritual
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tradition called Kashmir shyism or more
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technically tria shyism. I had not heard
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the term in my life before receiving uh
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Eagor's books. This is the first of our
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interviews I should say where uh the
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guest has come to us. Eagle's people got
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in touch with our people. They kindly uh
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gave us two of Eagle's books. The first
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of them, chamatara, chhatacara,
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chamat, chamacara,
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chamatara, chamatara, which is the
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Sanskrit word for sort of ecstasy,
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aesthetic, rapture, amazement. I really
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really enjoyed uh this book. It's a good
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book to read slowly, a good book to read
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as a practicing artist, as someone
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making anything really. You can be a
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filmmaker, you can be a painter and in
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general a really uh great introduction
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to this um specific branch of Indian
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philosophical thought. Everything is
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Shiva. Everything is pure awareness.
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That eye pure awareness. That eye pure
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awareness. Those uh those blackberries
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over there them pure awareness. This
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twig this twig here you that one pure
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awareness. This one also pure awareness.
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Pure Shiva. You can keep going. These
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things, that bit of mud, that bit of
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mud, everything pure awareness. That
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this oak tree that you see there, this
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tiny little droplet of water on this oak
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leaf, pure Shiva, pure awareness.
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Nothing exists that's not pure
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awareness. That it's that's still pure
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awareness. Even though it's on my
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fingernail, still pure awareness. This
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is God. This is God. All of this is God.
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This is God. All of this is God. The
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finger pointing at all of this is also
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God. That's God. That's God. God. God.
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God. God. God. God. God. God. God. God.
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God. God. God. God. God. God. God. So
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enjoyed this book a lot. Milo did as
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well. The other one he sent Kundalini.
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Probably something for people a bit
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further down the line. I found myself a
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little bit uh sort of bogged down by by
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a plethora of Sanskrit words, Sanskrit
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terminology. If you're already walking
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the path, I think Unolini probably also
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has something to offer you. Thanks to
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team Eigor, whoever you guys are, for
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giving us the books. They're also just
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nice books, nice objects, you know. It's
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It was also just a treat to talk to
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Eagle. He's a nice guy. Has a sort of
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peaceful, charismatic energy. I hope we
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get to talk to him again in future,
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perhaps after some of the ideas planted
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by this book have stewed for a while.
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Links to both of those books are down
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below. Please like this video. Leave a
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comment down below. Uh, subscribe to the
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channel if you're not subscribed
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already. And without any further ado,
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here is Eagle just reminiscing a little
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bit about the delicious fruits of
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Usbakistan.
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>> Fruits and abundance. You know,
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Usbekistan is notorious for everything
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has that in like taste, you know,
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richness of the fruit. When I came to
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the west, I I couldn't eat fruits for at
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least two years because they were
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tasteless. I have to be really honest
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about it. the guys who uh when the
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Soviet Union collapsed of course
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andistan became one of the independent
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countries, some of the entrepreneurs who
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moved to California try to grow this
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famous variety of this very long black
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seedless grapes which actually look like
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in in terms of color like blueberries
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because they have that that you know
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that tint of blue
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and you You can literally have a
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spoonful of best honey and then eat
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those grapes and they will still be
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sweet
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and then they um dry them and they
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become this uh well best ever raisins
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you can ever try. I've heard you live in
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Germany now, Jack.
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>> Do we get them? Do do we can we find
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them?
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>> Yeah, you get them in Germany because
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that's where we occasionally buy them
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from. They called Bkharian raisins from
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Bkhara or Samarant. Check them out man.
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These are like [laughter] this is you
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know send some to Milo maybe as well
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because I don't want to leave my
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[laughter]
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free of you know
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>> free of these raisins. Yeah. For me
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raisins are very much like you know
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there's no there's no hierarchy in
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raisins. Every raisin I've ever tasted
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in my life has been exactly the same
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raisin. Um I'm looking forward to this
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sudden introduction of of hierarchy into
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the concept. I'm just going to um start
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us off with our poetic epigraph. We
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start every conversation with a poem and
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then I'll hand over to Milo for uh the
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start of the discussion.
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So I rifle through the trash of the
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cashblooded neighborhood under a sun
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setting behind itself into a mountain
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and discharging its toothless lexicon as
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gems. Owls lay eggs in the sky which
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frogs fertilize with stars. Do you
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understand what I mean? I discover a
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television, a dead infant bonobo,
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discarded drafts of a pebble concurto,
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and the heart of a goddess, which I
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devour like a pomegranate. Crimson
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juices commit my white office shirt to
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an asylum. All my possessions are going
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completely mad. I must commit the kind
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of suicide that destroys the universe
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but leaves me. Everyone is everyone
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else, I cry. Music is hot gray meat
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making love to the darkness to breed
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with the light. Blushing in a shower of
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flower fletched feet and salmon. Aspens
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float into the atmosphere and sparkle
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like painted toes. A smooth cream of
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stones and strawberries. The breasts of
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the she gods smother the loquacious
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moon. All women are born forever. All
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men die forever. The Red Sea is
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swallowed by the dune. Consciousness is
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the body of another body's mind. The
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mind is the dream of the sleeping hair
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awakening from everywhere to nowhere.
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>> I'll drink to that.
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>> Very good. So before we get into
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anything else today of the various um uh
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books you have written and and what you
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practice personally I'd like to really
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start with a much broader question maybe
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unanswerable but perhaps it will be a
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sort of route in to the further
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discussion and the question is this how
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or why did we lose touch with meaning
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specifically referring to we as the west
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as this kind of culture that seems to be
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in a meaning crisis that of um lost much
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of their spirituality, much of their
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religion and and touch really with with
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many of what were the fundamental uh
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beliefs or perennials. How do we start
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to answer this question?
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>> I have to confess immediately that it
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never occurred to me as an inquiry in
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its own right to ponder on the meaning
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let alone on the loss of that. giving it
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a a kind of a retrospective overview.
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Now I would say one of the reasons
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perhaps is because at some point there
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was this civilizational tilt
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towards precisely that looking for a
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meaning outside of what otherwise
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is the very meaning already.
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So in other words,
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>> it's it's looking uh it's like okay,
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I'll give this maybe boring, you know,
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it's like fish suddenly startsing to
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analyze why is it living in water, you
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know,
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>> it already lives there and I know it's
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>> so the beginning.
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>> Yeah. No, I just the beginning of the
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meaning crisis is even asking the
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question what is what does it mean? In
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the same way that the beginning of
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unhappiness is often asking am I happy
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even the question itself is profoundly
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strange which is that sets it back you
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know millennia before our current
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meaning crisis if it's even the inquiry
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implies disconnect
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>> very much so the fact that life suddenly
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had to have a meaning
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took us potentially away from what life
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truly represents
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or even we could say what life truly is
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because the search for meaning here is
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precisely when the connection to life is
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lost.
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But the connection to life cannot be
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reestablished through finding
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some kind of mental justification or
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.350
intellectual reason that of why we are
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alive.
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So yeah, we we are kind of like uh we
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could hold a company here to a handful
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of people uh in the more recent history
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of the past 200 years who have been
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speaking exactly to that. Mitri is just
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one of them or more known or more
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notorious figure who brought it all to
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question. So where all happened? I don't
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know. Maybe somewhere in Bronze Age
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Greece. Everyone is obsessed now with
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the Christopher Nolan Odyssey and I
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think it's a good thing whether this was
00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:31.110
a conscious publicity stand with a part
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of the PR the whole thing you know we
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don't know how the movies are made these
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.030
days but what I find fascinating is that
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every Tom Deacon Harry having the say
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about what Christopher Nolan achieved
00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.910
where he failed the fact is is thousands
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Thousands of people out there right now
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discussing this and
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very passionately in fact what could be
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considered to be the very first very
00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.870
first piece of it's not we can't even
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call it literature because epics are not
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literature really in full sense as far
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as I understand that. So who knows maybe
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the odyssey was that departure that the
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true sense of modernity was tasted
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something was violated at the very very
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core. You see after all Odicius is also
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that his search you know [clears throat]
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personal odyssey of every human being
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um began with that kind of return
00:13:36.794 --> 00:13:39.590
[clears throat] home but more so looking
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.190
for a meaning lost meaning that somehow
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.509
the Trojan war brought and more
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:49.190
importantly the trickster with which he
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:50.790
um
00:13:50.800 --> 00:13:53.910
bewildered and betrayed the bond between
00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:56.790
the gods and the mortals. So this may be
00:13:56.800 --> 00:13:58.790
the the where the rapture takes place.
00:13:58.800 --> 00:14:03.509
Bronze Age, right? the archaic Greece.
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.150
Greece before all the temples, Greece
00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:10.470
before before the Athens, you know, all
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.509
that glory of Greece before Plato and
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:14.949
before all these famous freezes,
00:14:14.959 --> 00:14:17.350
Pergammon altars and so forth, you know,
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.870
the grease of the kuroys and kuros, you
00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:21.990
know,
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.189
>> static sculptures that breathe spirit
00:14:25.199 --> 00:14:28.949
even to this day, you know, there's an
00:14:28.959 --> 00:14:31.670
extraordinary balance between the form
00:14:31.680 --> 00:14:34.470
and content there.
00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:38.790
It it sometimes shooked me as a 20some
00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:41.430
when I was for the first time in Greece
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:45.590
how actually alive they are. Uh this
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.629
aliveness that is not due to the life
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.470
force but due to that what something
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.230
carved out of stone could communicate to
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.710
a living being in [clears throat]
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.990
moved animated by life force. Now
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.230
thousands years after
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.870
>> apart from this uh rupture that we would
00:15:08.880 --> 00:15:11.350
place deep deep in antiquity this kind
00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.350
of um rupture with a with a more
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.350
intimate sense of being. We imagine
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.949
cavemen uh pre-farming hunter gatherers
00:15:20.959 --> 00:15:23.670
having a very intimate relationship with
00:15:23.680 --> 00:15:25.990
the world with what is with being itself
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:27.990
and and with nature. Maybe this is a
00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.750
romanticized picture from um perhaps an
00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:35.269
overly civilized era, but um I often
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.590
fall into the idea of of hunters in the
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.430
woods, tree men, cavemen having this uh
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.110
really
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:45.670
intimate relationship with the world
00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:47.509
outside them. It's not filtered through
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.990
concepts as much. And maybe we could see
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:51.990
the the the
00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.550
Greek rupture in the west at least as
00:15:54.560 --> 00:15:57.189
the the time when people started to
00:15:57.199 --> 00:16:00.550
categorize the world around them and not
00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:03.509
just take it in, not just have this
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:05.990
intimate onetoone kind of relationship
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.350
with it. But I would like to talk more
00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.670
specifically about our own time in a
00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:13.670
way. There's something about this late
00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:17.189
stage of industrial civilization
00:16:17.199 --> 00:16:20.710
that I think has created an even deeper
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.629
kind of alienation.
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.470
Uh an alienation that goes deeper from
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.550
um a mere overconceptualization
00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:32.470
uh overrationalization
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:36.790
of being um but something that even even
00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:40.310
abstracts you from from the abstraction.
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.550
I feel when you're engaging with this
00:16:44.560 --> 00:16:47.030
virtual world, the kind of world that
00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:50.230
both Milo and I grew up in, a world
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.310
where you don't know where any of the
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.949
food comes from, a world where you don't
00:16:54.959 --> 00:16:58.230
know how anything got where it was.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.350
We're just in this builtup uh industrial
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.949
world without a kind of organic origin
00:17:04.959 --> 00:17:07.909
story and there's no way of tracing it
00:17:07.919 --> 00:17:10.630
back. It's a kind of a kind of intense
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.390
alienation
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.150
from any like inquiry into meaning but
00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:17.829
without having that kind of caveman
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:20.789
intimacy with being itself if I'm making
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.510
sense. I'm curious with yourself, Eagle,
00:17:23.520 --> 00:17:25.990
when you were growing up in the Soviet
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.190
Usbekistsan, which maybe um we sort of
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.029
associate the Soviet Union in the West
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.750
as a as a place of cold kind of
00:17:33.760 --> 00:17:37.430
mechanical rationalistic attitude to to
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.549
life, whether this really did
00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.789
predominate in your own childhood in the
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:44.789
way that maybe it did for me and Milo,
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:47.350
or whether um there was always this this
00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:51.029
undercurrent of of spiritual appetite.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:54.390
tight that was never really uh
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.390
sufficiently suppressed in any
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.750
meaningful way.
00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:00.950
>> It's hard for me to tell um again
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.230
objectively because I would be prompted
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.110
to romanticize this unconsciously and
00:18:07.120 --> 00:18:10.150
consciously for reasons maybe that might
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.110
become clearer later on if we touch that
00:18:13.120 --> 00:18:17.590
if we go that deep. If we are to take to
00:18:17.600 --> 00:18:19.909
heart the
00:18:19.919 --> 00:18:23.029
more complex understanding of time
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.510
and obviously space as well but time in
00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:27.270
particular
00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:29.909
from the POV of consciousness if we are
00:18:29.919 --> 00:18:33.110
to take consciousness
00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:35.190
based stand
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.510
uh there is no conflict between
00:18:37.520 --> 00:18:40.310
simultaneity and sequence it's just
00:18:40.320 --> 00:18:41.750
belongs to different strata of
00:18:41.760 --> 00:18:43.590
consciousness I would not be able to
00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:45.669
speak about it purely in purely rational
00:18:45.679 --> 00:18:49.029
terms how it was. No one knows how it
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.789
was. You interview 10,000
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.029
people of my generation even with maybe
00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:57.270
similar trajectory and everyone will
00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:59.270
give you something that will not give us
00:18:59.280 --> 00:19:02.549
the picture. But
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.909
this this is why if I'm romanticizing
00:19:05.919 --> 00:19:07.909
about this, I'm doing that consciously
00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:10.789
now. How would I be if I grew up in
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:13.270
California? You know, like that's Jim
00:19:13.280 --> 00:19:16.150
Morrison walking on the beach, topless,
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.110
right? Still unknown, but already wrote
00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:21.990
all those lyrics that would become
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:22.870
songs, right?
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.029
>> Exactly. Or or if you were born 40,000
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.590
years ago or if you were born in Yeah.
00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:29.510
Tang dynasty, China. Exactly.
00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:31.830
>> Yes. Yes. So, we'll I'll get to that
00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:34.390
40,000 to 1 million years because this
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.029
is also not all we don't know now. It's
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.789
the the date is being pushed pushed
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.789
pushed pushed. So to me it was very very
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.350
beautiful time in every way and indeed
00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:48.870
deeply charged magics and the word
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:50.710
spirituality I cannot use. I didn't know
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.230
what that means at the time.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.669
It was magical in every way. And what
00:19:57.679 --> 00:20:01.350
was extraordinary of course this is why
00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:03.110
some of the speakers like likes of
00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:05.430
Jordan Peterson are deeply annoying to
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.549
me you know like and is because no
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.870
matter how much uh of the polyics about
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.510
which system won, which system lost,
00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:17.750
which social structure is more
00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:19.270
progressive.
00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:22.230
uh I still stand on the platform of
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:25.270
understanding that socialism even in in
00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:29.990
its failed let's say form was a window a
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.310
potential breakthrough a potential
00:20:32.320 --> 00:20:36.230
portal that society was given to walk
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:37.830
through
00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:40.310
without socialism I don't know where we
00:20:40.320 --> 00:20:42.230
will be living without the socialist
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:43.990
ideas
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.630
uh some people might just be horrified
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.270
by what I'm saying particularly
00:20:49.280 --> 00:20:51.990
those compatriots, you know, those
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.630
comrades from the part of the world I
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:56.870
grew up. How dare can you speak like
00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.270
that? You know, millions perished, you
00:20:59.280 --> 00:21:01.510
know, you know, during the Stalinist
00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:04.149
regime and what have you.
00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:08.149
And yet with free education based on
00:21:08.159 --> 00:21:09.510
more progressive [clears throat] systems
00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:12.630
than Oxford and Cambridge, state funded
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.830
education, state funded uh health
00:21:15.840 --> 00:21:18.549
system, the first successful heart
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.190
transplants were in Moscow. The first
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.270
brain surgeries, successful brain
00:21:23.280 --> 00:21:26.470
surgeries were done in Moscow. Imagine
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.870
you're growing up and you're not under
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.350
the existential psychological pressure
00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:32.950
of how the hell am I going to make a
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.990
living? How much of your energy is there
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.190
dedicated to purely exploring your
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.510
craft, interests,
00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:44.710
relationships, interactions? This
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.190
looking now and I fathered five
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.909
children, three in this relationship,
00:21:49.919 --> 00:21:52.710
this 20 years relationship with my dear
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.110
wife, 19year-old and 16 year old and I
00:21:57.120 --> 00:21:59.430
have a [clears throat] six-year-old.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.750
What are they faced with? How they are
00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:04.149
coping? what they what the world what
00:22:04.159 --> 00:22:07.669
world they belonging to makes me feel
00:22:07.679 --> 00:22:11.270
want I almost want to cry or scream
00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:13.110
you know it's deprived childhood even
00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:15.750
with the father and the mother like like
00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:18.870
ourselves so no there's nothing I can
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.029
complain about my whatever get to our
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:23.270
bringing it was beautiful all through
00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:24.950
and [clears throat] most importantly
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.070
beautiful in that fullness of that tone
00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:31.750
it had it had roughness to it a rawness
00:22:31.760 --> 00:22:37.430
to it it also had this extremely rich
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.750
experience of
00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:42.470
what the sensory world represents here.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:44.470
But yes, of course, it was in the
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.430
so-called closed behind the iron
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:49.029
curtain.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.190
And that in itself is was fascinating
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.590
and very interesting because
00:22:53.600 --> 00:22:55.590
there was that created the possibility
00:22:55.600 --> 00:22:58.549
for something to brew. You see some of
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.710
the most uh original thinkers who by the
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.789
way influenced people that you have
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.950
already interviewed to a great degree.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.789
Some of them confess about this others
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.510
maybe keep quiet. The most extraordinary
00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:16.789
unusual rare writers and thinkers. Why
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:18.870
that was possible? Because of that
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.230
complete and utter insulation. So for me
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.470
this was an extraordinary time that
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.110
underground rich life you know not on
00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:30.149
the surface not pioneers wearing red
00:23:30.159 --> 00:23:32.710
scarfs and you know doing salutes like
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.310
you know scouts or like
00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:38.230
we're not talking about that we all knew
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.789
all this is to be seen through and
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.350
transcended every little kid know knew
00:23:43.360 --> 00:23:46.310
that people in the United States by far
00:23:46.320 --> 00:23:49.270
much more indoctrinated than any Russian
00:23:49.280 --> 00:23:52.630
kid was was almost hilarious to discover
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.350
later on in life. So, but going back
00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:57.430
further in time
00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.590
this we need to before we delve there
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:02.230
Jack we need to first maybe go into the
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.390
anatomy of experience
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.510
into the structure of experience itself
00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:09.750
because otherwise we will be constantly
00:24:09.760 --> 00:24:12.470
pushed to the surface of that connection
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.029
to being and that sense of
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:16.870
individuality.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.149
How did the entrance live?
00:24:20.159 --> 00:24:22.630
Why and how were a they were able to
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:26.710
leave at what point that kind of uh you
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.190
know the Prometheus right bringing the
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.630
fire that first revolution Karl Marx's
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:36.470
favorite mythological figure not
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.190
surprisingly Prometheus
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:43.110
right so at some point fire worshippers
00:24:43.120 --> 00:24:45.990
zerorastrians prehindu you know
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.029
civilization [clears throat] all
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.470
worshiped fire and the fire was not just
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:52.630
external fire.
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.430
That's what's important. Fire as the
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.909
subjectivity of one's own soul. That's
00:24:57.919 --> 00:24:59.750
the that's the alchemy. This is where we
00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:02.390
if we are to make attentive kind of leap
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.789
toward potential themes we can touch up
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.710
upon that fire that subjectivity
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.470
you see in that trinity of the
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:12.549
experience that is required for any
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:15.269
experience to take place.
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.549
subject, object and the process between
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.110
that dynamic creative tension. It
00:25:21.120 --> 00:25:23.190
undergoes these permutations and perhaps
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.630
historically somehow there were times
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:31.590
when this accent and emphasis on
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:34.070
objective field of experience began to
00:25:34.080 --> 00:25:36.870
took place and and then it was
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.750
unstoppable. This is what maybe in
00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:42.310
studying history of art was great help
00:25:42.320 --> 00:25:44.070
to understand this because you can see
00:25:44.080 --> 00:25:46.549
through the history of art you can see
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:49.029
where the decadence rises and when
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.830
civilization becomes more fragmented
00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:56.870
it's exactly at the cusp where the
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.990
balance between the form and content
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:05.909
begins to get uh disturbed and the form
00:26:05.919 --> 00:26:08.710
begins to dominate. So ultimately what
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.630
you spoke and industrial revolution and
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.470
since then all that what we call
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:17.590
progress is a progressive domination of
00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:19.909
objective sphere.
00:26:19.919 --> 00:26:22.149
So like now we're living in the final
00:26:22.159 --> 00:26:24.549
perhaps phases of complete and utter
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:28.383
objectification of our own being.
00:26:28.393 --> 00:26:30.630
[clears throat] So this objectification
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.149
of
00:26:32.159 --> 00:26:34.789
um yeah of what the human being
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.470
represents
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:41.590
this was done consciously in turning the
00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:43.110
product
00:26:43.120 --> 00:26:45.750
into a subject.
00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:49.190
And so we can see that in in creation of
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.590
uh brands to creation of personal brands
00:26:53.600 --> 00:26:57.430
to like in Instagram right and like
00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.510
literally people turn themselves into
00:26:59.520 --> 00:27:01.669
some kind of non-existent entities out
00:27:01.679 --> 00:27:06.149
there whereas workingass uh people
00:27:06.159 --> 00:27:09.990
become objects so that flip of course
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.110
Karl Marx did not study Kashmir shism
00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:15.430
I'm not alluding here like he was
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.149
scholar of Indian philosophy. But
00:27:18.159 --> 00:27:20.070
somehow he stumbled on something
00:27:20.080 --> 00:27:22.310
extraordinary,
00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:23.669
really extraordinary.
00:27:23.679 --> 00:27:25.190
>> While we were filming this, Seagull was
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.590
sort of searching his mind for the the
00:27:27.600 --> 00:27:30.070
Marxist term for this phenomenon. He
00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:31.669
emailed us after to say it was a
00:27:31.679 --> 00:27:33.909
raification. He was looking for the term
00:27:33.919 --> 00:27:36.870
raification. If you want to gain access
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.350
to a bit more of our chat with Eagle,
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:41.830
we've got about an extra half hour over
00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:44.070
on Patreon. We're enormously grateful to
00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:46.390
all the people who support us over on
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.549
Patreon as well as gaining access to
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.870
extra content. You also uh gain access
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.510
to the Zoom calls with me and Milo.
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:54.950
We're enormously grateful for your
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.389
support and it's it's nice to talk to
00:27:56.399 --> 00:27:58.310
you. I I really like the the folks we
00:27:58.320 --> 00:27:59.750
got over there at the moment. Yeah, it
00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:01.110
would be lovely to see you there.
00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:02.789
Anyway, back to Eagle. I think it's
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.389
fascinating what you're talking about
00:28:04.399 --> 00:28:06.870
though because we often think of as as
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.149
we've been saying kind of um scientific
00:28:10.159 --> 00:28:13.110
materialism of the Soviet state as
00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:15.029
completely opposed to spiritualism and
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:16.789
opposed to spiritual thought almost
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.430
fundamentally and you have a very se uh
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.710
segregated locked down society versus
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.389
the relatively I mean you know we can
00:28:24.399 --> 00:28:26.630
talk about Western Europe as as an area
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.870
which is relatively free of thought and
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.110
therefore would enable people to perhaps
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:33.269
have a broader view of things. But what
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.750
you say about you know you do need a
00:28:35.760 --> 00:28:38.870
kind of material security to think and
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.830
perhaps you know late era capitalism has
00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:44.310
really locked down that security. You
00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:47.430
have to spend all of your brain time um
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.990
on thinking about sustenance even though
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.310
you know food scarcity is is eliminated.
00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:54.230
It's about jobs. It's about you know
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.710
working hours. It's entertainment. So
00:28:56.720 --> 00:28:58.630
while you in theory have complete
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:00.710
liberty to do and think what you want,
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.230
you know that the thought police aren't
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.630
going to knock on the door necessarily,
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.230
um you don't really have the time or
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.870
inclination to think. Whereas the much
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:11.029
more locked down Soviet system, at least
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.350
from the external viewpoint, did allow
00:29:13.360 --> 00:29:15.750
you to actually have broader thoughts
00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:18.070
that may contradict the the the
00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:19.830
governmental system, the ideological
00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:21.909
system. But that's that's just a very
00:29:21.919 --> 00:29:25.269
interesting way to recategorize
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.590
that idea and and finding in Karl Marx,
00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:30.070
you know, these kind of uh rhythms or
00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:32.630
rhymes that that go against ancient
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.110
Indian philosophy. Again, one would in
00:29:35.120 --> 00:29:36.549
the west would be tempted to say, well,
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:39.029
no, this is this is the most materialist
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:42.549
possible philosophy. And yet in going in
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:46.070
that direction, one necessarily unveils
00:29:46.080 --> 00:29:48.389
certain discoveries or rediscoveries
00:29:48.399 --> 00:29:50.630
that might go all the way back. And we
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.110
can't imagine that the world KL Max KL
00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:56.070
Marx is rebelling against is the sort of
00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:59.029
the true line and that he breaks against
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:00.789
it. There were you know kinds of
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.430
decadence against decadence um things of
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.990
this character. Though an interesting um
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.750
direction we can turn the conversation
00:30:07.760 --> 00:30:10.470
which relates to your journey personally
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.510
as well is the the notion of art because
00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:15.909
I think even entering the meaning crisis
00:30:15.919 --> 00:30:17.669
of of however long we want to put it
00:30:17.679 --> 00:30:19.669
back there has always been this this
00:30:19.679 --> 00:30:22.710
section of artistic insight artistic
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.110
meaning that moves people and that even
00:30:25.120 --> 00:30:26.389
someone who wouldn't claim to be
00:30:26.399 --> 00:30:28.710
religious or spiritual someone who is a
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:30.950
you know a hardcore atheist can still
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.029
look at an artwork of some kind and be
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.430
deeply moved to tears is to whatever to
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:38.789
feel a stirring deep within. And as as I
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:41.510
understand it, you uh were an artist,
00:30:41.520 --> 00:30:44.389
practicing artist before um you you
00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:46.710
became the spiritual guide. And I wonder
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.190
if you can sort of trace this
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:52.950
transformation as it were from art into
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.710
spiritualism. What dwells in the other?
00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:58.950
And is this really the route for for
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.190
most people indeed the average person?
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.710
Is art the the tunnel into some greater
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:06.870
more expansive meaning rather than being
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:08.630
as some you know many philosophers have
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.950
said art is distraction. You know you
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.630
see it in Plato that the art is
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:15.510
confusing and that that it should be
00:31:15.520 --> 00:31:17.110
kept to a minimum essentially and
00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:19.190
philosophy should dominate. But can we
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.070
have a more compatible system in which
00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:24.789
art, philosophy, the spirit are
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:26.630
essentially tendrilled around the same
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:27.990
pole?
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:30.310
>> Yeah, very much so. I don't know how
00:31:30.320 --> 00:31:32.950
much um
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.430
auto autobiographical
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.830
um I'm allowed to to be here
00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:42.389
>> as much as you want. Yeah, you can all
00:31:42.399 --> 00:31:44.870
is all is permitted. But it's
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.350
interesting in spite of all of what I
00:31:47.360 --> 00:31:49.750
kind of gave like that brief outline of
00:31:49.760 --> 00:31:53.509
my upbringing in childhood and
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:56.310
all up to my early 20s because I left
00:31:56.320 --> 00:31:59.029
also Soviet Union before its collapse
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.909
right so I left it already in the winter
00:32:01.919 --> 00:32:04.389
of 1989
00:32:04.399 --> 00:32:07.509
it's very important also to uh clarify
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.430
that even though born in central Asia in
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.149
Usbakistan which is considered to
00:32:14.159 --> 00:32:16.389
uh hair has to
00:32:16.399 --> 00:32:19.509
silk root and has its extraordinary
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:21.269
heritage.
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.830
You know, I grew up on a street called
00:32:23.840 --> 00:32:27.350
uh named after Biruni,
00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:30.710
Aburon Bironi, the man who come who made
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.870
the very first model of the globe
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.590
destroyed by the Mongols. Polymath in
00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:38.549
every way, astronomer, philosopher,
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:41.750
poet. Another great polymath was also
00:32:41.760 --> 00:32:45.830
from that very same uh area, Avid Senna,
00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:48.389
Abu Ali Ibans. And [clears throat] yet I
00:32:48.399 --> 00:32:51.669
grew up completely woriing the Greeks
00:32:51.679 --> 00:32:54.549
and was being born in Usbekistan.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:57.750
I was worshiping the Greeks and the
00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:01.350
Odyssey was the very first book I read
00:33:01.360 --> 00:33:03.830
first like that version for children,
00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:06.310
right? And then I was able to already
00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:09.830
read the magnificent translation by
00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:12.630
Zhukovski who was a
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.430
close friend of Alexander Pushkin
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:18.230
um who basically slaughtered sacrificed
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.870
his career to translate the Odyssey.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.070
Spent 20 years and he was a a poet of
00:33:24.080 --> 00:33:28.870
great promise. was never really known as
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:32.070
a poet because he just that that single
00:33:32.080 --> 00:33:34.310
translation
00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:39.110
that single cross that he chose to carry
00:33:39.120 --> 00:33:41.509
uh was that sacrifice and it's
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.909
interesting also that Soviet Union had
00:33:43.919 --> 00:33:46.710
this very peculiar
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:50.070
synthesis and combination of things that
00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:52.549
uh were quite quite bizarre. the
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.070
language
00:33:54.080 --> 00:33:57.350
visual or literally was all based on
00:33:57.360 --> 00:33:59.269
classicism.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.950
So the the academy of in Soviet Union
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.630
was all fashioned on on the classicism
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.909
of the ancient Greeks
00:34:09.919 --> 00:34:14.629
and on uh right on the Renaissance right
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.430
we used to draw the David's
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:20.389
parts of the face just the lips just the
00:34:20.399 --> 00:34:23.750
nose just the eye you know that whole
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.510
let's say uh visual basis of that
00:34:27.520 --> 00:34:31.270
language of the academic trainings were
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.230
implanted there and then. So we didn't
00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:39.349
even question that as a kid you know I
00:34:39.359 --> 00:34:41.909
entered the art college at the age of 15
00:34:41.919 --> 00:34:44.790
and there we are you know studying on
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:47.909
the samples and of the greatest
00:34:47.919 --> 00:34:51.190
masterpieces of the Renaissance.
00:34:51.200 --> 00:34:52.790
You can find the traces and the
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.389
analogies in the obsession of the Nazis
00:34:56.399 --> 00:34:59.109
with all things classical, right? And
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.829
after all the architecture and the
00:35:01.839 --> 00:35:03.349
sculpture
00:35:03.359 --> 00:35:06.069
of the Nazis, the ideals was this
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.630
fashioning themselves on the Greeks. The
00:35:08.640 --> 00:35:10.710
Greeks were had the measure of all
00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.190
things, right? The Greeks who knew the
00:35:13.200 --> 00:35:17.430
balance and the measure, right? So,
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.510
I'm just speaking in this way. I hope
00:35:19.520 --> 00:35:21.510
you and your audience would forgive me
00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:24.630
for this kind of like uh holding several
00:35:24.640 --> 00:35:26.790
threads because I don't want to
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:28.710
otherwise it would be too literal. And
00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:31.829
so yes, for me growing up in Central
00:35:31.839 --> 00:35:37.190
Asia um I always looked at the west with
00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:39.750
that great great
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.390
sense of thirst, admiration and envy. M
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.710
>> to me it's like you know I knew I'm
00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:49.349
going to be somewhere in in the west. I
00:35:49.359 --> 00:35:52.230
knew it at the time when I was in uh in
00:35:52.240 --> 00:35:54.230
my childhood and even throughout my
00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:57.030
teenage years there was no indication
00:35:57.040 --> 00:36:00.069
that Soviet Union will collapse.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:01.990
>> Maybe some people somewhere knew that.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.069
We didn't know that.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.670
>> We teenagers were busy to you know
00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:10.310
getting obtaining the latest album by
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.190
King Crimson. We were like more busy in
00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:15.670
getting [laughter] that like you know
00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:18.069
forbidden fruit to taste of all that
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.470
what was not available reading the books
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.510
of Camu and Na all self-published
00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:26.150
somewhere all these dirty copies and
00:36:26.160 --> 00:36:28.870
that's what was happening we didn't know
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.109
Soviet Union going to collapse so we
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.030
were supposed to stay put and see how
00:36:33.040 --> 00:36:35.109
we're going to make a living here but
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:37.430
the thing is now no one really cared how
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:39.030
we're going to make a living this is
00:36:39.040 --> 00:36:41.910
what I'm emphasizing This is the luxury
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:45.030
of growing up as an artist. It's a pure
00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:47.270
luxury. You see?
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.310
>> Yeah.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.710
>> That luxury. Yeah. Luxury that culture
00:36:50.720 --> 00:36:54.710
gives you. You see that you can stew in
00:36:54.720 --> 00:36:58.870
your juices in the most important years.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.430
So that then you become that really
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.870
stretched to its limit,
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.150
you know, bow to release that arrow when
00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:10.630
the time is right. all happens in that
00:37:10.640 --> 00:37:12.870
age. So this is the time we're talking
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.550
about. This is the collapse of Soviet
00:37:14.560 --> 00:37:17.750
Union and of course I knew I knew I will
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.510
be I will be somewhere in the west. So
00:37:19.520 --> 00:37:22.790
the that wor war being the worshipper of
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:27.109
all things western of all things Greek
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:30.390
until my first uh disillusionments my
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.150
first right this realizations I'm
00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:37.510
already painter you this is my first 6
00:37:37.520 --> 00:37:40.230
months in Italy I'm staying just outside
00:37:40.240 --> 00:37:43.670
of Florence in this tiny little village
00:37:43.680 --> 00:37:48.069
in Montoro yeah seeing Michelangelo you
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:50.630
know and And like all this suddenly
00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:53.990
start collapsing all these idols and and
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.710
I'm discovering the Italian primitives
00:37:56.720 --> 00:37:59.109
and the early renaissance
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.036
you know pira Franchesca you know
00:38:02.046 --> 00:38:02.630
[clears throat]
00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:04.630
the frangelico
00:38:04.640 --> 00:38:07.829
and so this all coincided with a very
00:38:07.839 --> 00:38:10.310
very big realignment I'm already
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.510
meditate I'm already meditating so to me
00:38:13.520 --> 00:38:16.310
suddenly the form under goes this like
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:19.670
what I grew up liking and admiring under
00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:22.069
goes this evaluation when I see them in
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.670
life you know like of course it may
00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:28.870
sound preposterous but seeing the
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.190
David's figure for the first time I
00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:34.310
caught myself there is a touch some
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.950
touch of not just decadence there's
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.510
almost touch of pornography there
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:41.750
pornography not in a sense of the
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.710
display of the genitalia the pornography
00:38:44.720 --> 00:38:47.750
in a sense of allowing allowing the form
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.630
from dominating to such degree
00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:54.150
that we forget about somehow we forget
00:38:54.160 --> 00:38:57.990
about what is actually this form is
00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.990
there to communicate. We are constantly
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.829
and constantly leaking the form. You see
00:39:03.839 --> 00:39:06.630
literally leaking it without time of the
00:39:06.640 --> 00:39:08.550
visual perception.
00:39:08.560 --> 00:39:11.910
Whereas when you look at those works in
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.030
the monasteries right that by Frangelica
00:39:15.040 --> 00:39:17.990
those much more static figures or
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.750
earlier sculpture earlier Donatello you
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:25.589
know the before that 100 years before
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:27.030
Michelangelo
00:39:27.040 --> 00:39:29.589
>> and there some something something is
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.950
still charged there. Yeah.
00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:35.510
>> So that maybe just bringing it all
00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:38.630
somehow what Milo
00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:42.550
here outlined as that inquiry when all
00:39:42.560 --> 00:39:45.670
that let's say radical uh transformation
00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:47.190
of consciousness that I went through in
00:39:47.200 --> 00:39:50.790
my mid30s when all that began to
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.870
stabilize and get get integrated. Uh of
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.390
course I waited to return to painting
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.550
and I waited for two years. I even
00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:04.150
rented an apartment in Primus Hill
00:40:04.160 --> 00:40:06.069
to have an extra bedroom so that it
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:08.069
could serve me as a studio in case that
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:10.230
muse knocks on the door or flies through
00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:12.310
the window. I'm ready here. Everything
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:14.550
was on the go and for [clears throat]
00:40:14.560 --> 00:40:16.550
two years
00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:20.790
I waited in vain. So gradually of course
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:22.870
I realized that something else is here
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.750
being at play. And so when I like the
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:30.230
time come came to um build a narrative
00:40:30.240 --> 00:40:32.870
right to kind of announce oneself I
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:35.910
realized that I cannot remove the term
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.270
artist from my CV from my biography.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.550
So even now artist precedes spiritual
00:40:42.560 --> 00:40:45.030
guide or spiritual teacher.
00:40:45.040 --> 00:40:47.990
And if you ask me why well that's the
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:51.030
long meandering response that because I
00:40:51.040 --> 00:40:53.510
consider myself to be an artist. have
00:40:53.520 --> 00:40:56.630
always been and to me I don't care what
00:40:56.640 --> 00:41:00.470
pla Plato said this is the very very
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:03.829
essence of consciousness so yes in
00:41:03.839 --> 00:41:06.390
analogy is there in Indian civilization
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:09.030
adishankura 8th century sage who is
00:41:09.040 --> 00:41:11.430
considered to be the plate of India
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:15.030
right also argued that all activity
00:41:15.040 --> 00:41:18.069
without exception is causal absolutely
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:20.550
all causal in nature in other words
00:41:20.560 --> 00:41:23.750
karmic to him and bas based on his
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.349
philosophical
00:41:25.359 --> 00:41:27.750
platform that he was standing on. Advita
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.670
vidanta.
00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:33.109
This is all just some form of
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:34.790
psychological impressions, psychic
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:38.150
impressions, some scars. And so if one
00:41:38.160 --> 00:41:42.150
wants to settle one's affairs trait with
00:41:42.160 --> 00:41:46.390
what one is, then there's no use in it.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.550
And then two centuries later comes
00:41:48.560 --> 00:41:51.430
another great sage Abhinavag Gupta and
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.230
makes a tremendous adjustment there and
00:41:54.240 --> 00:41:57.829
then because Abhinavag Gupta not only
00:41:57.839 --> 00:42:00.550
reevaluated and reinstalled the value of
00:42:00.560 --> 00:42:02.309
creativity.
00:42:02.319 --> 00:42:04.630
He put it at the helm of all human
00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:07.910
activity. And in doing so, of course, he
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:11.670
made it very clear that every artist is
00:42:11.680 --> 00:42:13.829
here the guardian
00:42:13.839 --> 00:42:16.950
of all this. And every artist therefore
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:19.829
is an expression of Shiva
00:42:19.839 --> 00:42:21.589
awareness.
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:25.349
Here we speak of Shiva as awareness not
00:42:25.359 --> 00:42:28.950
as part of the triotei of the Hinduism
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.750
because ini of the Hinduism you know
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:35.190
Shiva is as the aspect responsible for
00:42:35.200 --> 00:42:37.589
destruction or disillusion right in
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:39.510
shivism
00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:42.150
in Kashmir shayism in particular Shiva
00:42:42.160 --> 00:42:45.990
is awareness it's pure awareness so it's
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.470
not just one of the aspects Shiva
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.270
contains all aspects
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.829
And so the this rehabilitation was
00:42:53.839 --> 00:42:55.910
extremely important because that gave
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.430
ground for all people with any creative
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.069
inclination to stand on.
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:06.550
Because he argued further that it is
00:43:06.560 --> 00:43:09.990
just as there is a path of renunci
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.109
propounded by Adishankara,
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:15.270
there is the path of the householder,
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:17.670
the path of creator
00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:22.630
which is the life you and I guys live.
00:43:22.640 --> 00:43:25.190
Kashmir shaiism was consciously adopted
00:43:25.200 --> 00:43:27.109
in the curriculum or the umbrella the
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:29.990
cloak to dress the teaching that when I
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.109
decided I go out that's what I will be
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.829
uh
00:43:35.839 --> 00:43:38.069
yeah using as the umbrella because
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.270
that's where I feel the most at home
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:45.829
because with all that that's right who
00:43:45.839 --> 00:43:50.870
TS Elliot said right after all this
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.470
we should come back to the place right
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.109
after all this exploration right
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:58.390
>> know it for the first time
00:44:00.240 --> 00:44:01.829
>> one of one of the greats and I think
00:44:01.839 --> 00:44:03.750
it's very interesting in in the sort of
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.309
root of your your journey that it's
00:44:06.319 --> 00:44:09.030
first became first started almost as an
00:44:09.040 --> 00:44:11.109
aesthetic discernment that you were
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:13.670
looking at this high renaissance
00:44:13.680 --> 00:44:16.790
uh figure and and feeling there is
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:18.790
something aesthetically wrong here
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:20.470
rather than necessarily that you start
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.470
on the spiritual point that something
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:24.950
here is has been degraded compared to
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.349
medieval art or early Renaissance art in
00:44:27.359 --> 00:44:29.430
which of course they had formal
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:30.950
capabilities. I mean you can look at
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.109
sort of Roman art in Pompei that there
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.750
was more Renaissance style figures that
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.030
existed but they chose not to depict
00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:40.790
figures in that way. They chose a more
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.870
abstracted form. People often complain
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:44.390
now that why didn't the medievalss know
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.230
how to, you know, paint babies or cats?
00:44:48.240 --> 00:44:49.829
They knew how or at least they could
00:44:49.839 --> 00:44:51.829
have taught themselves how. They
00:44:51.839 --> 00:44:53.829
believed that the purpose of art was not
00:44:53.839 --> 00:44:56.630
simply to depict things as life and
00:44:56.640 --> 00:44:59.109
indeed to contain a different idea and a
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:01.510
different sort of um almost vocabulary
00:45:01.520 --> 00:45:04.309
of symbols that would be understood. And
00:45:04.319 --> 00:45:06.150
I find it interesting that is this is
00:45:06.160 --> 00:45:08.870
kind of what you recognized before then
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:10.309
realigning yourself because there's a
00:45:10.319 --> 00:45:13.430
curious sort of uh ricochet. you sort of
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.670
begin in the the eastern hemisphere,
00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:17.430
move to the west or obsessed with the
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.750
west, become a little disenchanted and
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:21.670
then ricochet to a different kind of
00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:25.510
east. And I'm curious how how that came
00:45:25.520 --> 00:45:27.270
about, how you identified that it had to
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.190
be this because there are many kinds of
00:45:29.200 --> 00:45:31.910
mysticism there sort of dowoism of
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.790
China. There are various ideas like sort
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.109
of Eastern Orthodox Christianity,
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.349
Islamic ideas. But you came to India
00:45:39.359 --> 00:45:41.349
which in some sense is the wellspring
00:45:41.359 --> 00:45:43.750
and the source But I wonder what it was
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:46.870
about that idea beyond or above the
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:49.270
others that really captured you. And
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.589
then I suppose you can talk about where
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.630
you ended up landing this um Kashmir
00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:56.950
shivism and just sort of I suppose give
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.109
the audience a quick notion of what this
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:01.349
is, how it differs from obviously the
00:46:01.359 --> 00:46:03.430
similarities it has to Hinduism, some
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:06.309
similarities it has to um Buddhism and
00:46:06.319 --> 00:46:08.390
then the the tantra idea in general
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:10.710
because I think the the western notion
00:46:10.720 --> 00:46:12.870
is a little confused. A lot of these
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.950
eastern ideas kind of blend into one
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.309
sort of vague not helped of course by
00:46:18.319 --> 00:46:20.630
modern western practices of yoga and
00:46:20.640 --> 00:46:22.710
kundalani and all these things where
00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:25.109
they they take the name but really wash
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.109
out as you were saying the cultural
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:28.870
significance and I think a very
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:30.550
interesting thing in your thought I mean
00:46:30.560 --> 00:46:33.670
in your your large book from last year
00:46:33.680 --> 00:46:37.270
your the final third is kind of about
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.230
translating these ideas into the west
00:46:40.240 --> 00:46:41.670
because often you know you get these
00:46:41.680 --> 00:46:44.550
ideas that end with okay you've ascended
00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:47.030
now or whatever you can you're done but
00:46:47.040 --> 00:46:48.550
there's the well there's the afterlife
00:46:48.560 --> 00:46:50.710
what do you do now what do you do with a
00:46:50.720 --> 00:46:52.470
brain full of this stuff but you still
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:55.430
live in capitalist Europe or America you
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.510
still have to get up every morning go to
00:46:57.520 --> 00:46:59.670
work or whatever you are as you say a
00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:02.550
householder how do we actually convert
00:47:02.560 --> 00:47:05.270
or manage these ideas but um there's
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:06.790
quite a lot in that question but yeah so
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.790
we can start kind of with the the
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.030
redirection to the east and then sort of
00:47:11.040 --> 00:47:11.829
define
00:47:11.839 --> 00:47:13.510
the ideas you found there and the one
00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:15.829
that you really uh you locked on to, I
00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:18.150
suppose.
00:47:18.160 --> 00:47:20.870
Well, again being the worshipper of all
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.230
things Greek and all things Western,
00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:26.790
right? It hardly would be a surprise
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:30.309
that uh given also the whole like
00:47:30.319 --> 00:47:33.190
company that I kept one way or another.
00:47:33.200 --> 00:47:37.109
It just happened that the philosophy of
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.190
the existentialists
00:47:39.200 --> 00:47:41.910
was the first really sort of like
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:45.109
serious reading that I was introduced
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:47.829
already in my teen years.
00:47:47.839 --> 00:47:51.670
And particularly this was due to the
00:47:51.680 --> 00:47:56.390
younger brother of my mentor
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.109
who was very influential in a sense of
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:03.829
giving that very strong sense of uh
00:48:03.839 --> 00:48:07.430
ascertaining myself as a yes artist is
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.870
my prime identity because my mother
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:14.470
brought me to him at the age of 11 into
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:16.470
his studio and it was like just one of
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:20.069
those kind Soviet clubs where during the
00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:22.630
day he would just teach kids of
00:48:22.640 --> 00:48:24.870
different ages just as they would be
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:27.990
next door a dance class and next door
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.910
something else musical. It was like, you
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:32.390
know, those house of pioneers, you know,
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.710
like sort of like a um
00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:39.349
and in the evening I was outside of the
00:48:39.359 --> 00:48:42.870
kind of like he would hold this circles,
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:45.589
he would hold this right that people of
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.270
different ages would come and really and
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.670
mingle together. And so very quickly
00:48:51.680 --> 00:48:54.790
within a year, he took me to a group
00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:56.630
where I was the youngest. I was 12 years
00:48:56.640 --> 00:48:59.589
old and the other youngest person was
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.710
already 20. So they were like basically
00:49:02.720 --> 00:49:05.430
I was surrounded by grown-ups and they
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.349
were like talking about things I had no
00:49:07.359 --> 00:49:09.829
idea. You know, they're talking about
00:49:09.839 --> 00:49:11.589
Buddhism, the teachings of Buddha,
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:14.390
Nirvana, they're talking about Janism,
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:17.510
they're talking about
00:49:17.520 --> 00:49:20.710
existentialism, like all these words.
00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:22.870
And of course, it all sounded to me like
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:26.950
just some exotic words. I have no no
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:31.589
access to the meaning. But then um he
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:35.990
died tragically. He was killed in in by
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.549
the mafia because he was also a martial
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:40.230
artist and he challenged some people
00:49:40.240 --> 00:49:44.150
there and you know he was accomplished
00:49:44.160 --> 00:49:45.990
kung fu
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:47.990
adept. He was like by the way he was an
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.829
extraordinary one could say like a
00:49:49.839 --> 00:49:52.950
renaissance man. He painted.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:56.630
He composed poetry. I will be close to
00:49:56.640 --> 00:50:00.630
Jack. He played piano particularly like
00:50:00.640 --> 00:50:04.069
he introduced me to Brahms and Schubert
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.150
like already this like because his
00:50:06.160 --> 00:50:08.309
Schubert was his favorite favorite
00:50:08.319 --> 00:50:11.990
composer. All right. And he was a
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.309
absolute like you know ninja like even
00:50:16.319 --> 00:50:18.264
the handshake and people who would come
00:50:18.274 --> 00:50:21.589
[laughter] he had emanated this force
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:25.589
you know like and so anyway his death
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.230
shook me to the core it's the first time
00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:31.910
I'm actually experienced something I'll
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.710
try to explain why because to me
00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:38.069
>> uh he encapsulated and embodied
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:41.510
what life vivious The righteousness of
00:50:41.520 --> 00:50:44.069
life is about. It's almost like
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:46.390
>> everything holistic like the entire the
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:49.510
entire life embedded in a single person
00:50:49.520 --> 00:50:51.349
>> and then that being murdered
00:50:51.359 --> 00:50:53.270
>> and that being murdered to me and you
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:55.589
know the whole also the circumstance of
00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:59.109
how he died and and all that was just so
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:01.990
tragic, dramatic, violent. It was my
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:06.069
first like encounter indirectly with
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.750
with death. And then I'm coming into
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:11.349
under the pattern which I grew up
00:51:11.359 --> 00:51:13.670
without a father sing you know the only
00:51:13.680 --> 00:51:16.710
child to a mother and naturally I ended
00:51:16.720 --> 00:51:19.990
up uh being looked after by this younger
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.630
brother of his who was also a neighbor
00:51:22.640 --> 00:51:25.670
and his family two daughters and he was
00:51:25.680 --> 00:51:28.150
much simpler man but also very very you
00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:30.309
know were kind of [snorts]
00:51:30.319 --> 00:51:33.430
very interested in all this esoteric
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:35.270
stuff and philosophy of the ex
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.109
existentially. So he gave me this book
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:41.349
by Saurin Kerkard. It was my my
00:51:41.359 --> 00:51:43.270
literally my initiation into the world
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:45.670
of philosophy. And then this was really
00:51:45.680 --> 00:51:48.069
really very quick very like stream of
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:50.630
that sort of like this
00:51:50.640 --> 00:51:54.309
until I was able to read Haidigga
00:51:54.319 --> 00:51:56.390
naturally, right? So the Haidigga was
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:59.030
the last western philosophy I read. And
00:51:59.040 --> 00:52:02.150
at that very same time uh what happens
00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:04.549
is there were serious also very very
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:08.069
dramatic um events in my personal life
00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:11.190
in the life of my family. My firstborn
00:52:11.200 --> 00:52:13.829
daughter dies in a car accident age of
00:52:13.839 --> 00:52:17.910
six and that shakes of course the entire
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:19.910
ground of
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.309
of everything I knew believed of myself
00:52:22.319 --> 00:52:25.589
and and of course it impacted all the um
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:28.470
all the family and my mother turned
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:30.870
religious literally overnight she
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:34.630
couldn't cope with that and you know she
00:52:34.640 --> 00:52:37.670
I never seen any anything of the kind
00:52:37.680 --> 00:52:40.309
throughout the entire life it was like
00:52:40.319 --> 00:52:42.950
really atheistic background. My mother
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.829
was totally totally not interested in
00:52:45.839 --> 00:52:49.030
anything remotely religious. Even though
00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:51.349
in retrospect I can see she was always
00:52:51.359 --> 00:52:54.230
deeply deeply spiritual person. I could
00:52:54.240 --> 00:52:57.190
even say living by those let's say
00:52:57.200 --> 00:53:00.309
Christian ideals you see like like the
00:53:00.319 --> 00:53:02.950
ideals of the self-sacrifice
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:05.829
constantly putting others first right do
00:53:05.839 --> 00:53:08.069
not harm all this. It's like to me it
00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:10.150
was like she was just living this
00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:13.109
naturally whether out of ignorance or
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:16.069
like whatever sometimes down to me
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:18.870
losing it as a teenager of how pathetic
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:23.670
she would appear in my eyes you know so
00:53:23.680 --> 00:53:25.349
non ambitious you know like what I'm
00:53:25.359 --> 00:53:27.349
talking about sort of like completely
00:53:27.359 --> 00:53:30.710
meek and accepting her reality and all
00:53:30.720 --> 00:53:33.670
the rest of it so anyway
00:53:33.680 --> 00:53:36.309
and with her being religious didn't last
00:53:36.319 --> 00:53:38.790
long. One day she was walking out of the
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:40.309
church,
00:53:40.319 --> 00:53:43.030
Russian Orthodox Church in Tashkand and
00:53:43.040 --> 00:53:46.790
the man just handled her Shria Rabindu's
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.910
uh work through the eyes of the French
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.670
men. His name is Sat Prem who was one of
00:53:53.680 --> 00:53:56.710
western disciple of Shriar Rabinda.
00:53:56.720 --> 00:53:59.670
Shriar Rabbinda is a very important uh
00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:03.030
philosopher sage of the early 20th
00:54:03.040 --> 00:54:06.470
century India. very important. He's a
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:12.069
canonical figure because he was the
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:13.670
one of the leaders of the liberation
00:54:13.680 --> 00:54:17.829
movement for for for India, right?
00:54:17.839 --> 00:54:20.630
Fighting the colonial oppression and the
00:54:20.640 --> 00:54:23.990
British Raj. He was thrown to prison and
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:27.589
purportedly uh undergone a complete and
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:29.829
utter transformation of consciousness
00:54:29.839 --> 00:54:32.549
just by reading the Bhagavad Gita, the
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.710
copy that was in prison. the only book
00:54:34.720 --> 00:54:39.750
that was allowed. And so when uh his
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:43.670
release came about uh everyone was kind
00:54:43.680 --> 00:54:47.589
of assuming that he will become now this
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.750
mature figure to continue this movement
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:53.430
uh for liberation. [clears throat]
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:55.589
Instead he retreats retrieves to
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:57.109
Pondicher
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:59.430
as one of the French colonies on the
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:03.829
east side of India and finds an ashram
00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:06.790
and starts you know his humble teachings
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:09.990
there with this famous famous line the
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:13.510
fate of India is decided India shall be
00:55:13.520 --> 00:55:16.470
liberated. We need to turn our attention
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:18.630
to more important matters. You know some
00:55:18.640 --> 00:55:20.710
people were saying that along with this
00:55:20.720 --> 00:55:23.349
illumination in prison he experienced
00:55:23.359 --> 00:55:26.710
also this insights into what moves
00:55:26.720 --> 00:55:29.990
societal orders from behind the scenes.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.710
He must had arrived to the understanding
00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:35.430
that consciousness is the only agent
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:37.270
that whatever we experience at the
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.790
surface of life is nothing but waves of
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.470
the fatherless ocean of awareness. And
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:48.789
so the deeper one is established at this
00:55:48.799 --> 00:55:51.430
let's say unfathomable ocean the more
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:55.190
one can have impact on the surface of
00:55:55.200 --> 00:55:57.349
life. So one way or another that little
00:55:57.359 --> 00:56:00.150
slim book introduction to the teachings
00:56:00.160 --> 00:56:02.470
of Shriarainda
00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:06.710
launched my mother first into this and I
00:56:06.720 --> 00:56:09.670
myself even though of course through the
00:56:09.680 --> 00:56:11.670
connections and friends and like I had
00:56:11.680 --> 00:56:14.789
already friends who were uh reading the
00:56:14.799 --> 00:56:17.910
B Mahabharata and like you know some
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.270
artistic circles living in London. I was
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.309
aware of that. But all that again as
00:56:24.319 --> 00:56:27.910
Milo pointed out at the aesthetic level
00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:31.030
at the level of appreciation of its
00:56:31.040 --> 00:56:34.069
artistry form, right? But not really
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:36.549
that where I would go for answers to my
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:39.910
own existential dilemmas until I was
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.430
initiated into a
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:44.950
meditation
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.390
in a dream when I was in sleep cuz I was
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:51.030
suffering from some misplaced vertebrae.
00:56:51.040 --> 00:56:53.510
the third one with the lower back even
00:56:53.520 --> 00:56:56.309
though being athletic all my life and
00:56:56.319 --> 00:56:59.430
really you know still keeping at it you
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:01.990
know even as a painter in London I would
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:05.030
just jog to Paddington green when I
00:57:05.040 --> 00:57:08.630
lived in St. Joneswood do like fair
00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:11.430
amount of pull-ups and push-ups and kick
00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.069
it with the local guys, kickboxers from
00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:17.589
Nigeria and you know do 100 meter round
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:20.390
with this guy with that guy you know and
00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:22.390
come back and yeah I feel like I'm in
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:25.030
the time of Plato right healthy spirit
00:57:25.040 --> 00:57:28.870
in a healthy body all these Greek ideals
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:31.829
were pursued by me to the best of my
00:57:31.839 --> 00:57:34.549
capacity until I could not put socks in
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.349
the morning from the pain in the lower
00:57:37.359 --> 00:57:39.589
back and of course and that was the
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:41.829
shift my own shift through that somatic
00:57:41.839 --> 00:57:46.069
experience. So in one of those sleeps I
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:49.270
had and suddenly my body was hopped up
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.470
upright something felt as if the
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.109
something breath into the top of my head
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:57.430
literally like right at the top of my
00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.990
head I felt like the cool air and
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.630
something is being whispered and of
00:58:02.640 --> 00:58:04.309
course I there and then understood it's
00:58:04.319 --> 00:58:07.430
this is some kind of initiation taking
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.230
place and please don't get me wrong I
00:58:10.240 --> 00:58:13.349
wasn't reading anything about it. There
00:58:13.359 --> 00:58:15.910
was nothing at the time around me. There
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.150
was H highigga being in time in my
00:58:18.160 --> 00:58:21.109
studio waiting to go back to uh during
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:23.829
the breaks between the painting and the
00:58:23.839 --> 00:58:27.589
drawing. So
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:31.270
just as it ended my body collapsed back
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:34.710
into horizontal position and I went back
00:58:34.720 --> 00:58:37.430
to sleep. So I wake up in the morning
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.750
and I recollected this experience and I
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:42.069
thought how on earth could I even sat
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:44.230
like that upright I couldn't you know I
00:58:44.240 --> 00:58:45.910
was crippled
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:48.630
I would go to the chiropractor every
00:58:48.640 --> 00:58:53.109
week to get clicked only to go back to
00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:58.069
that same agonizing pain with the third
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.630
vertebra there was the you know slip of
00:59:00.640 --> 00:59:03.030
the slipp slippage of the disc.
00:59:03.040 --> 00:59:05.430
>> Mhm. So anyway,
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:08.549
I crawl to the wall. I prop myself with
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:12.150
the cushion. I try to sit up the leaning
00:59:12.160 --> 00:59:15.589
against the wall, closing my eyes and
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:19.190
doing exactly what I was instructed
00:59:19.200 --> 00:59:22.710
in parenthesis to do that whatever that
00:59:22.720 --> 00:59:27.349
that interference whatever that uh
00:59:27.359 --> 00:59:30.549
revealed itself. And I started
00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:33.030
meditating there and then and within a
00:59:33.040 --> 00:59:36.710
week all this pain was behind. Literally
00:59:36.720 --> 00:59:40.710
my spine at one of the seings went
00:59:40.720 --> 00:59:43.510
in a way that like no chiropractor could
00:59:43.520 --> 00:59:46.470
ever do. And it's just like breath the
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:49.430
sign sigh of relief. the tears of you
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:51.829
know you can just imagine it was
00:59:51.839 --> 00:59:56.549
accompanied by psychological release as
00:59:56.559 --> 00:59:59.750
the tears pouring out suddenly
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.829
uh from the place of coming from the
01:00:01.839 --> 01:00:06.150
place of carrying it all on my shoulders
01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:08.549
>> like you know that was really intense
01:00:08.559 --> 01:00:11.030
time I have to make a living this studio
01:00:11.040 --> 01:00:13.270
the cost of rent this the relationship
01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:15.910
is collapsed I'm like like you know all
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:19.510
this is just all is trying to find my
01:00:19.520 --> 01:00:23.270
way. I just realized it's
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:25.829
just like it's all happens by itself.
01:00:25.839 --> 01:00:28.870
This is was momentarily release
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:32.069
and then you know whatever whatever you
01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:35.829
have uh how you want to interpret it can
01:00:35.839 --> 01:00:38.549
and we can take a stab from this culture
01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:40.630
from that culture. Yeah. This was my
01:00:40.640 --> 01:00:42.309
first saturator, you know, this is
01:00:42.319 --> 01:00:44.390
whatever, right? This is my first
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:48.309
insight, the first something that opened
01:00:48.319 --> 01:00:51.670
up and showed me that all this is a
01:00:51.680 --> 01:00:53.670
mental dilemma, nothing more than mental
01:00:53.680 --> 01:00:56.549
dilemma. I'm I'm curious the voice that
01:00:56.559 --> 01:00:58.789
spoke or the whatever it was through
01:00:58.799 --> 01:01:00.630
through the top of the head was do you
01:01:00.640 --> 01:01:03.589
do you remember it in words or was it a
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:05.829
sort of more of an impulse some sort of
01:01:05.839 --> 01:01:07.430
preverbal
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.190
um sort of impulse that was coming or
01:01:09.200 --> 01:01:11.190
was it or was it speaking to you?
01:01:11.200 --> 01:01:13.349
>> No, it wasn't speaking at all. It was
01:01:13.359 --> 01:01:17.589
purely uh that coolness and something
01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:20.630
that had that humming sound which I took
01:01:20.640 --> 01:01:23.990
for the mantra. You see, just something
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:27.589
that was very very clearly that I ought
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:29.510
to do. And the interesting thing is soon
01:01:29.520 --> 01:01:32.230
as I processed that, just as quickly my
01:01:32.240 --> 01:01:36.069
body fell back to sleep. So it's not
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:40.470
like I got up went for a cigarette or
01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:42.789
you know just to analyze the experience
01:01:42.799 --> 01:01:45.750
or write it in my journal. None of that.
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:48.549
It was very quick in a way, you know,
01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:51.750
very quick, very brief, very precise.
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:54.069
That's it. That's what you to do.
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:58.309
>> Yeah. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Sometimes, um,
01:01:58.319 --> 01:02:00.390
you know, do the sort of thought
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:02.390
experiments with myself of what if you
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.030
have a moment of of complete and and
01:02:05.040 --> 01:02:08.150
total awareness or or transformation of
01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:10.870
consciousness that lasts for the
01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:14.069
smallest possible atom of time. So not
01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:17.349
not even a second. It's it's too small
01:02:17.359 --> 01:02:21.109
even for um conscious awareness uh
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:24.710
thinking to to make sense of it. It's
01:02:24.720 --> 01:02:27.510
just like a little stab on the smallest
01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:31.670
possible fraction of time. And um and
01:02:31.680 --> 01:02:33.510
whe whether we're whether you could
01:02:33.520 --> 01:02:35.430
maybe
01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:38.230
think about all consciousness the the
01:02:38.240 --> 01:02:41.270
the in in that same way dayto-day
01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:43.670
consciousness everything is that
01:02:43.680 --> 01:02:45.910
everything is this stab from beyond.
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:48.950
Every moment is as pregnant as full as
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:51.670
possible. And the the reason it's not
01:02:51.680 --> 01:02:53.990
noticeable has actually more to do with
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.670
the way we um with the the the
01:02:57.680 --> 01:03:00.069
processing that happens afterwards or
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:01.990
the way we think about time. It's
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:03.670
strange to think about the relationship
01:03:03.680 --> 01:03:05.349
between absolute awareness between
01:03:05.359 --> 01:03:06.870
transcendental
01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:09.750
um consciousness and time. I've I've
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:11.430
never experienced anything like this, I
01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:13.030
should just say. And and was talking
01:03:13.040 --> 01:03:15.270
about it with Milo in in the leadup.
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:17.510
I've I've tried meditation a few um
01:03:17.520 --> 01:03:19.670
times, but I'm very quickly distracted
01:03:19.680 --> 01:03:23.829
and um ultimately uh tend to get an idea
01:03:23.839 --> 01:03:27.029
for something for for a a poem, for a
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:29.190
song, for something and that interrupts
01:03:29.200 --> 01:03:31.829
the process. I wonder whether it it is
01:03:31.839 --> 01:03:33.589
reconcilable
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:35.990
with time in a way. Can you be in a
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.950
state of uh transcendental bliss for an
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:45.910
an hour or for seven hours or for a
01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:48.549
whole day uninterrupted waking and
01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:51.029
sleeping or or is it something that
01:03:51.039 --> 01:03:53.029
really just
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:56.390
pierces a veil in in fits and starts?
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:59.029
>> Very good question. very very important
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.349
one particularly for those who let's say
01:04:01.359 --> 01:04:03.670
tread treading the path or for those who
01:04:03.680 --> 01:04:06.789
already given themselves to the art and
01:04:06.799 --> 01:04:09.430
practice of meditation and a fascinating
01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:13.589
one as well. So first about that you
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:17.109
know analogy somehow could also be given
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:23.589
can that smallest infantismly small um
01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:26.230
cannot be even maybe called a true
01:04:26.240 --> 01:04:28.710
experience because
01:04:28.720 --> 01:04:31.430
in that moment the subject object
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:33.430
dynamic collapses
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.589
>> right so no one to claim it
01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:36.309
>> exactly
01:04:36.319 --> 01:04:38.950
>> you know doesn't matter how how thin is
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:40.309
the needle
01:04:40.319 --> 01:04:43.029
it will deflate the balloon with one
01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:45.910
little pierce you know. So it in other
01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:49.430
words the value of that can be um
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:53.349
immeasurable in a sense of
01:04:53.359 --> 01:04:57.190
stepping or giving one access to that
01:04:57.200 --> 01:05:01.190
what otherwise one seems to be robbed of
01:05:01.200 --> 01:05:04.789
if I am to put it in that dramatic way
01:05:04.799 --> 01:05:07.430
>> and you know in our day and age just
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:09.750
because there's few things and I would
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:13.750
still go go back to what Milo here kind
01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:17.510
of again built very very uh skillfully
01:05:17.520 --> 01:05:20.230
in various holding the so I hold all
01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:22.870
these threads together but you know
01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:26.390
notice today there is this
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.950
continued hankering for extraordinary
01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:30.870
spiritual experiences
01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:34.069
>> right that auasa is like right that like
01:05:34.079 --> 01:05:35.349
astral world right
01:05:35.359 --> 01:05:37.430
>> almost like it's a holiday from daytoday
01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:37.750
life
01:05:37.760 --> 01:05:39.510
>> oh yeah it's like it's a it's it's an
01:05:39.520 --> 01:05:42.789
exotic exotic like you cannot go to the
01:05:42.799 --> 01:05:46.390
exotic places and you know the Bali like
01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:48.230
people have been everywhere when when
01:05:48.240 --> 01:05:50.390
they have the the means to go like
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:51.829
there's nothing exotic about the
01:05:51.839 --> 01:05:55.029
massages about sex but something still
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:57.349
holds that what you know be taken
01:05:57.359 --> 01:06:01.270
outside of one's so-called mundane
01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:05.109
boring consciousness right waking state
01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:08.950
into some extraordinary extravaganza and
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:13.510
that in itself uh is very indicative
01:06:13.520 --> 01:06:18.069
of how impoverished
01:06:18.079 --> 01:06:21.990
our today's understanding of the pure
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:26.470
magic of what this just daily experience
01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:28.069
is woven out.
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:31.589
>> Yeah. That's what you know like if if if
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:34.880
this is the those right if
01:06:34.890 --> 01:06:36.390
[clears throat] only the windows of
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:40.870
perception were cleansed
01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:44.150
enough the world will appear as it is
01:06:44.160 --> 01:06:44.710
infinite
01:06:44.720 --> 01:06:47.270
>> there's this dual duality like
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:50.870
>> yeah the William Blake like yeah the how
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:52.630
could how could all of this how could
01:06:52.640 --> 01:06:55.109
actually experiencing things become
01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:56.950
boring to us
01:06:56.960 --> 01:06:58.789
>> it's incredible that it evenly happened.
01:06:58.799 --> 01:07:00.870
It's incredible that we're a species
01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.349
that are experiencing something and
01:07:03.359 --> 01:07:05.510
don't care about it. It's an amazing
01:07:05.520 --> 01:07:07.270
thing to be. Yeah.
01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:09.589
>> Yes. So, but you hear what's important
01:07:09.599 --> 01:07:12.789
here is that there is no such thing as
01:07:12.799 --> 01:07:16.309
experience out there or even objective
01:07:16.319 --> 01:07:21.109
field out there. It is our capacity
01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:23.510
to extract
01:07:23.520 --> 01:07:26.069
out of any experience what it actually
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:28.230
truly represents.
01:07:28.240 --> 01:07:29.910
This is the marvel. This is an
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:32.630
extraordinary field of inquiry. So in
01:07:32.640 --> 01:07:34.309
other words,
01:07:34.319 --> 01:07:37.670
the world out there doesn't exist
01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:40.069
independent of our cognition and
01:07:40.079 --> 01:07:42.150
perception.
01:07:42.160 --> 01:07:45.510
We animate reality by virtue of
01:07:45.520 --> 01:07:48.150
perceiving it. So therefore to say that
01:07:48.160 --> 01:07:52.789
this cup exists here and and if I use it
01:07:52.799 --> 01:07:54.549
every day, I'm going to get bored from
01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:57.670
it. Even if it's a handmade wabby sabi
01:07:57.680 --> 01:08:00.069
buy whatever signed, you know, and I
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.789
paid the heck a lot of money for it,
01:08:02.799 --> 01:08:05.270
right? Sooner or later, it will be just
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:09.670
a black cap in my tea cabinet that I'm
01:08:09.680 --> 01:08:12.309
I've drank gazillion of times and the
01:08:12.319 --> 01:08:15.910
experience exhausted itself. Well, what
01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:20.070
we are trying to hear reevaluate that
01:08:20.080 --> 01:08:25.189
that is actually not the case. Each time
01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:28.709
I am in contact with the cup, I bring
01:08:28.719 --> 01:08:30.870
forth
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:34.950
this cup, by virtue of this cup being
01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:38.070
within my own awareness and to the
01:08:38.080 --> 01:08:41.829
capacity of what's available to me
01:08:41.839 --> 01:08:44.309
through perceptual
01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:47.749
uh let's say power and how this is all
01:08:47.759 --> 01:08:50.789
charged. And of course if this is
01:08:50.799 --> 01:08:53.590
diminished then the reality becomes
01:08:53.600 --> 01:08:55.510
mundane,
01:08:55.520 --> 01:09:00.470
repet repetitive, boring because somehow
01:09:00.480 --> 01:09:03.829
it all this becomes bland. All this
01:09:03.839 --> 01:09:05.430
becomes
01:09:05.440 --> 01:09:10.630
somehow withered or worn out and
01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:14.309
reality is perceived as as something out
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:17.269
there and that's where that suffering
01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:20.390
enters and that the whole thing begins
01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:24.070
to spin from there. But the beauty of
01:09:24.080 --> 01:09:27.110
course of at least this understanding is
01:09:27.120 --> 01:09:30.149
that that in itself also
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:33.349
is how consciousness process things. So
01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:37.669
this let's say what happened perhaps to
01:09:37.679 --> 01:09:40.870
this body at that moment in time was a
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:43.990
spontaneous response
01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:48.763
to what was required to
01:09:48.773 --> 01:09:51.189
[laughter] reboot the system. Because
01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:52.870
with that revival there's this
01:09:52.880 --> 01:09:55.510
reevaluation and of course from there on
01:09:55.520 --> 01:09:58.790
I was set on that path of inquiry.
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:01.110
I've meditated for a year on my own in
01:10:01.120 --> 01:10:04.870
this partisan way. Then I was initiated
01:10:04.880 --> 01:10:07.510
into transcendental meditation. By the
01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:09.750
way, on the insistence of my mother
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:12.149
because she felt that I should do that
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:15.510
now properly and I've honored that I
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.510
went back to Pakistan and took
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:23.590
initiation there. Uh TM was in its first
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:25.110
years. This is we're still speaking
01:10:25.120 --> 01:10:28.790
about early no this is mid '90s
01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:32.229
and I became a meditator diligent
01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:35.030
meditator for five years. I never
01:10:35.040 --> 01:10:38.630
stopped. It was it became my
01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:42.229
mental hygiene. It's became my therapy.
01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:43.990
And I've
01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:47.110
have to confess for during those years
01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:51.030
I've used it as that as such as therapy.
01:10:51.040 --> 01:10:53.189
You know the spiritual side was still
01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:56.870
hidden from from my let's say inquiry.
01:10:56.880 --> 01:10:59.910
It was I was still just dubbing. Yes.
01:10:59.920 --> 01:11:03.669
Started to read Bhagavad Gita. Yes. Shri
01:11:03.679 --> 01:11:06.550
Rabinda and again more on aesthetic
01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:09.030
level appreciating it
01:11:09.040 --> 01:11:11.189
>> right but there's a lot of that also
01:11:11.199 --> 01:11:14.229
Shriabinda rise writes beautifully very
01:11:14.239 --> 01:11:17.510
Victorian language and at that time you
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:19.750
know this is my first years in speaking
01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:21.990
English and reading English and I've
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:23.830
never studied English in my youth so to
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:26.709
me it was like this richness of the
01:11:26.719 --> 01:11:30.310
world you know until it hit me
01:11:30.320 --> 01:11:34.950
>> that I can't find anything in H Highigga
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:37.189
and I
01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:40.390
then a small slim book fell in my laps
01:11:40.400 --> 01:11:43.750
late H Higher and I think it was just
01:11:43.760 --> 01:11:45.830
Hide and Zen something like that really
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:48.470
slim book really unusual it's literally
01:11:48.480 --> 01:11:50.790
Haidiger towards the very end of his
01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:53.590
life where he completely seems to
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:56.470
totally and utterly disillusioned in
01:11:56.480 --> 01:12:00.070
everything that he bet on. That's my
01:12:00.080 --> 01:12:02.630
impression. And he's trying this he's
01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:05.030
making these attempts at looking outside
01:12:05.040 --> 01:12:07.270
of his culture
01:12:07.280 --> 01:12:10.310
out outside of his own
01:12:10.320 --> 01:12:13.430
where he feels comfortable where he grew
01:12:13.440 --> 01:12:15.910
up where he belongs where he received
01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:18.149
the right of passage.
01:12:18.159 --> 01:12:20.790
He is dubbing into something which is
01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:25.350
totally let's say foreign as foreign as
01:12:25.360 --> 01:12:29.270
it could possibly be. Um, I've realized
01:12:29.280 --> 01:12:31.750
what do I want
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:38.790
truly? Do I want now to understand
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:41.510
being or do I want to experience it
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:43.750
directly?
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:46.390
Do I want to have some kind of
01:12:46.400 --> 01:12:48.310
ontological
01:12:48.320 --> 01:12:49.910
overview
01:12:49.920 --> 01:12:53.030
or do I want to have a communion? It was
01:12:53.040 --> 01:12:54.790
as simple as that
01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:57.189
>> without any intellectualization, without
01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:00.790
any any you know ornaments. It's just
01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:03.270
just straightforward. I had to answer
01:13:03.280 --> 01:13:07.350
that and I felt clearly I really don't
01:13:07.360 --> 01:13:09.990
care about how all this is can be
01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:12.470
explained. I'm really tired from reading
01:13:12.480 --> 01:13:15.750
Haidigga. I'm really feeling heavy. I'm
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:17.990
feeling H higher's heaviness not the
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:21.590
lightness of being that he is himself
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:24.310
really really after
01:13:24.320 --> 01:13:26.310
and then and then this was like
01:13:26.320 --> 01:13:29.270
literally monumental moment taking that
01:13:29.280 --> 01:13:31.910
single book putting it on a shelf
01:13:31.920 --> 01:13:35.590
knowing I will never go back to it
01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:38.390
literally and with that it's not just
01:13:38.400 --> 01:13:40.950
saying goodbye to Haidigga it's
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:43.990
basically saying goodbye to attempting
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:46.149
at understanding understanding something
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:49.030
that I want to experience first. And
01:13:49.040 --> 01:13:52.470
perhaps this is where being an artist
01:13:52.480 --> 01:13:56.390
was paramount to that uh making that
01:13:56.400 --> 01:13:59.350
choice because to me it had to be
01:13:59.360 --> 01:14:01.189
somatic.
01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:04.229
It it had to take form in me in my own
01:14:04.239 --> 01:14:07.110
being that knowledge has to bear fruit
01:14:07.120 --> 01:14:08.870
here.
01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:09.350
You see?
01:14:09.360 --> 01:14:11.030
>> Yeah. It's an it's an interesting
01:14:11.040 --> 01:14:12.870
criticism, I suppose, of western
01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:15.189
philosophy as a notion in that it
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:17.750
doesn't necessarily have the practical
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:19.590
output. It isn't here's the theory and
01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:21.350
here's the practice. And this is again
01:14:21.360 --> 01:14:23.350
where Markx really comes in in a major
01:14:23.360 --> 01:14:24.950
way in that he wanted to create a
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:26.790
political philosophy or an economical
01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:29.189
philosophy that could be practiced. But
01:14:29.199 --> 01:14:32.310
you have the academy or versions of it
01:14:32.320 --> 01:14:34.709
developing these ideas of self and soul.
01:14:34.719 --> 01:14:36.390
And as they sort of disappeared from the
01:14:36.400 --> 01:14:38.310
church, they didn't really have an
01:14:38.320 --> 01:14:40.149
applicable zone other than more
01:14:40.159 --> 01:14:41.669
academics. And when you're talking about
01:14:41.679 --> 01:14:44.149
consciousness, I think to Kant and
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:47.110
Victor and Nalis who had similar kind of
01:14:47.120 --> 01:14:48.709
notions of you know you produce your
01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:51.990
world the idealist way of interpreting
01:14:52.000 --> 01:14:54.550
reality and experience that it's sort of
01:14:54.560 --> 01:14:57.350
from us rather than necessarily uh you
01:14:57.360 --> 01:14:59.510
know from objects from cups and and
01:14:59.520 --> 01:15:01.590
other such things. But I think it is
01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:05.110
it's an interesting focus that can I
01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:06.950
touch this thing? Can I pick it up? Can
01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:09.590
I live it? If not, you know, how many
01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:11.430
people come away from H Highaidiga and
01:15:11.440 --> 01:15:13.270
completely change their attitude to
01:15:13.280 --> 01:15:17.510
life? Probably some, but it isn't
01:15:17.520 --> 01:15:19.669
uh yeah, it isn't a tradition you can
01:15:19.679 --> 01:15:21.189
live through. It isn't something that
01:15:21.199 --> 01:15:23.189
you can um pick up and and and play
01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:25.110
with. Whereas I suppose something in
01:15:25.120 --> 01:15:27.030
these Eastern philosophies because it's
01:15:27.040 --> 01:15:28.709
still philosophy. it's still in that
01:15:28.719 --> 01:15:32.070
school is it does therefore indicate uh
01:15:32.080 --> 01:15:34.630
a continual practice something that you
01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:36.310
can dedicate yourself that you can work
01:15:36.320 --> 01:15:39.270
on with a goal to attain not to make it
01:15:39.280 --> 01:15:42.070
too sort of objective based but there is
01:15:42.080 --> 01:15:44.070
a higher reality that you can be living
01:15:44.080 --> 01:15:47.350
in and this is the root to it rather
01:15:47.360 --> 01:15:50.470
than a state of complete understanding a
01:15:50.480 --> 01:15:53.430
state of ah I understand now how being
01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:57.669
relates to soul relates to mind now what
01:15:57.679 --> 01:15:59.669
you know, I'm I'm sitting around. I've
01:15:59.679 --> 01:16:01.910
read the books. And perhaps it's it's
01:16:01.920 --> 01:16:03.669
yeah, an advocacy for this particular
01:16:03.679 --> 01:16:05.510
area of philosophy that you really can
01:16:05.520 --> 01:16:07.350
do something with it. You can benefit
01:16:07.360 --> 01:16:08.630
yourself and not even like in a
01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:10.950
self-help way if benefit yourself, but
01:16:10.960 --> 01:16:13.669
really expand your perception um in a
01:16:13.679 --> 01:16:15.750
way that you you'd want to sort of pass
01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:17.910
to others as you you now are doing
01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:20.070
because you know, you went from the
01:16:20.080 --> 01:16:23.030
spiritual adept or or acolyte and now
01:16:23.040 --> 01:16:26.470
now into the guide. Um and and I suppose
01:16:26.480 --> 01:16:28.390
so what was your route then to India
01:16:28.400 --> 01:16:31.510
simply that's where it had to go by by
01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:32.709
go getting into this kind of
01:16:32.719 --> 01:16:34.310
spirituality
01:16:34.320 --> 01:16:36.630
that's its home that's its wellspring
01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:38.149
and there are many competing accounts
01:16:38.159 --> 01:16:39.990
and I'm sure you can tell us about why
01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:42.870
you fell into the one in particular that
01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:45.270
now you are sort of springing back out
01:16:45.280 --> 01:16:47.270
into the world but but yeah I understand
01:16:47.280 --> 01:16:49.110
it being a natural especially you know
01:16:49.120 --> 01:16:50.870
with your mother telling you you know
01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:53.110
read this particular book and this
01:16:53.120 --> 01:16:55.030
meditative practice which of course has
01:16:55.040 --> 01:16:58.229
strong associations and then TM which as
01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:01.270
I understand it is a kind of western
01:17:01.280 --> 01:17:03.350
focused group but obviously with its
01:17:03.360 --> 01:17:06.790
roots in in this particularly eastern
01:17:06.800 --> 01:17:09.750
Indian philosophy. So so yeah how did
01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:11.270
you then chase this this practical
01:17:11.280 --> 01:17:12.870
yearning this yearning not simply to
01:17:12.880 --> 01:17:14.470
understand the world and categorize it
01:17:14.480 --> 01:17:16.790
in that very western way but to to
01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:19.189
embody it to exist within it. How did
01:17:19.199 --> 01:17:22.070
this leave you to the Kashmir shaism as
01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:24.630
opposed to so many competing and and
01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:26.870
sort of equally fascinating philosophies
01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:29.189
of the region? Let me just put a pin
01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:32.149
there and go back to let's say when I
01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:35.350
said when I put the hideigga down it
01:17:35.360 --> 01:17:39.030
doesn't mean that I uh closed let's say
01:17:39.040 --> 01:17:42.390
my interest on everything western not at
01:17:42.400 --> 01:17:45.350
all this needs to be really attentively
01:17:45.360 --> 01:17:47.430
evaluated in fact this was the process
01:17:47.440 --> 01:17:52.070
of at entire reevaluation because
01:17:52.080 --> 01:17:56.790
it reconfirmed over and over
01:17:56.800 --> 01:17:59.830
that some of the poetry, some of the
01:17:59.840 --> 01:18:04.149
works of art in the west, whether very
01:18:04.159 --> 01:18:08.229
well known or known to a few, give one
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:11.430
direct taste or certainly can give that
01:18:11.440 --> 01:18:13.110
flavor
01:18:13.120 --> 01:18:15.910
that something one literally experiences
01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:18.070
that community even in a in a fleeting
01:18:18.080 --> 01:18:21.990
moment. In other words, yes, it was a
01:18:22.000 --> 01:18:24.950
disillusionment and disappointment in
01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:28.709
the whole course of Western European
01:18:28.719 --> 01:18:31.430
thought. I was no longer interested in
01:18:31.440 --> 01:18:33.750
philosophy and I was no longer
01:18:33.760 --> 01:18:36.070
interested in talking about it or
01:18:36.080 --> 01:18:39.110
reading about it because I can pick up
01:18:39.120 --> 01:18:44.310
as I said any any favorite poet.
01:18:44.320 --> 01:18:47.430
It doesn't even have to be in uh the
01:18:47.440 --> 01:18:49.990
mother tongue like Raina Maria Rilka has
01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:52.310
extraordinary translations into English.
01:18:52.320 --> 01:18:55.750
Now extraordinary it's just gives you
01:18:55.760 --> 01:18:58.229
more insights
01:18:58.239 --> 01:19:01.030
into that what the philosophy tries to
01:19:01.040 --> 01:19:04.630
pinpoint or tries to trace its origin as
01:19:04.640 --> 01:19:07.030
in the case of Haidiger trying to go
01:19:07.040 --> 01:19:10.229
back to nature and the prescratics and
01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:13.189
all these attempts where did it go wrong
01:19:13.199 --> 01:19:15.910
let's reestablish that yes of course
01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:19.110
>> western uh spiritual landscape is very
01:19:19.120 --> 01:19:22.070
varied and has its own mystics and it a
01:19:22.080 --> 01:19:25.750
fair amount of its own sages, some of
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:27.430
them
01:19:27.440 --> 01:19:30.070
on par with the greatest sages of
01:19:30.080 --> 01:19:34.470
antiquity of the India. But somehow
01:19:34.480 --> 01:19:37.030
wine one way or another emphasis is
01:19:37.040 --> 01:19:38.790
placed elsewhere
01:19:38.800 --> 01:19:42.070
>> in terms of the work they've done. And
01:19:42.080 --> 01:19:44.630
so that was already definitely very
01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:49.189
liberating. And so at first I just dived
01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:51.430
head on into the what we could call a
01:19:51.440 --> 01:19:54.550
mainstream of Indian spirituality like
01:19:54.560 --> 01:19:57.189
the you know the the key texts and the
01:19:57.199 --> 01:19:59.669
Bhagavad Gita is a textbook right
01:19:59.679 --> 01:20:01.350
Maharish Mahash Yogi used to call
01:20:01.360 --> 01:20:04.709
Bhagavad Gita is a pocket wisdom of
01:20:04.719 --> 01:20:07.350
Indian philosophy why because it's a
01:20:07.360 --> 01:20:09.910
slim portion of the greater Mahabharata
01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:12.149
which focuses only on the battle of
01:20:12.159 --> 01:20:13.750
Kurukhetra
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:17.350
and the dialogue between Arjuna and Lord
01:20:17.360 --> 01:20:20.149
Krishna. I was reading this with the
01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:21.750
interpretation
01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:24.550
of Maharishi Maheshi Yogi and that was
01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:26.310
my kind of introduction and then of
01:20:26.320 --> 01:20:28.790
course it deepened from there. I started
01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:31.270
to study different branches of Vic
01:20:31.280 --> 01:20:33.830
wisdom Ayurveda
01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:37.430
I was interested in a little bit in jish
01:20:37.440 --> 01:20:42.310
and vic astrology in vasu the art of
01:20:42.320 --> 01:20:44.630
placement which
01:20:44.640 --> 01:20:48.470
cousin in funui all this like on a
01:20:48.480 --> 01:20:50.870
practical level all this purely from a
01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:53.030
practical level I read for instance I
01:20:53.040 --> 01:20:55.910
was catching like this terrible
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:57.590
respiratory
01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:00.550
um afflictions every winter in London
01:21:00.560 --> 01:21:03.030
the bronchitis and all the rest of it
01:21:03.040 --> 01:21:04.630
you know so like yeah I wanted to see
01:21:04.640 --> 01:21:07.030
how does this holistic medicine looks at
01:21:07.040 --> 01:21:10.470
it and that led me eventually to of
01:21:10.480 --> 01:21:13.990
course like this deep fascination with
01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:15.750
Indian philosophy of like okay what's
01:21:15.760 --> 01:21:18.709
what's the Bavad Gita how does it sit
01:21:18.719 --> 01:21:21.750
within the other scriptures
01:21:21.760 --> 01:21:25.110
and at some point uh when already during
01:21:25.120 --> 01:21:28.550
this very crucial several years in my
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:32.229
mid30s when I attended the advanced TM
01:21:32.239 --> 01:21:35.590
course TMCD in again in Usbakistan where
01:21:35.600 --> 01:21:38.470
that real unraveling began upon my
01:21:38.480 --> 01:21:41.590
return to London unable to paint unable
01:21:41.600 --> 01:21:44.470
to to do anything I was only able to
01:21:44.480 --> 01:21:47.270
meditate and just going like some
01:21:47.280 --> 01:21:50.709
grocery just like the very basic very
01:21:50.719 --> 01:21:52.790
basic essentials because it's was
01:21:52.800 --> 01:21:56.470
extremely uh somatically physiologically
01:21:56.480 --> 01:21:58.709
demanding process.
01:21:58.719 --> 01:22:01.189
I was frequenting that shop Watkins
01:22:01.199 --> 01:22:04.229
bookstore on Sharpbury Avenue which is
01:22:04.239 --> 01:22:05.270
right
01:22:05.280 --> 01:22:06.390
>> still there. Yeah.
01:22:06.400 --> 01:22:08.790
>> Yeah. Still there. Yeah. They shan me
01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:10.790
off by the way this year they did some
01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:13.750
nice publications previous years but
01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:17.270
this year the new owner who acquired
01:22:17.280 --> 01:22:21.990
Watkins who is a a notorious Zionist for
01:22:22.000 --> 01:22:24.070
my unapologetic
01:22:24.080 --> 01:22:28.310
views on this whole uh Gaza situation
01:22:28.320 --> 01:22:33.350
after committing to publishing an
01:22:33.360 --> 01:22:36.629
excerpt from the Kundalini book right
01:22:36.639 --> 01:22:39.830
earlier in January, uh, it was
01:22:39.840 --> 01:22:41.830
re-evaluated and was given a polite
01:22:41.840 --> 01:22:44.470
decline. I'm just saying that out loud.
01:22:44.480 --> 01:22:45.910
So, I hope this is not going to be cut
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:48.310
out because that doesn't affect you
01:22:48.320 --> 01:22:50.950
guys, but I'm just want to say that how
01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:52.629
culture is being cancelled in our day
01:22:52.639 --> 01:22:54.950
and age, right? How even, you know, a
01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:57.830
condalini is an esoteric book. There's
01:22:57.840 --> 01:23:04.597
nothing political about it. [music]
01:23:04.607 --> 01:23:09.990
>> [music]
01:23:10.000 --> 01:23:12.470
>> So anyway, any anyways I'm in one of my
01:23:12.480 --> 01:23:14.550
trips to Watkins book and I don't want
01:23:14.560 --> 01:23:16.550
to just buy books like you know and you
01:23:16.560 --> 01:23:18.870
know these books were expensive. Many of
01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:21.350
these books were printed in India you
01:23:21.360 --> 01:23:23.910
know by monatal bonaridas and by the
01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:26.070
time a slim book like that like this is
01:23:26.080 --> 01:23:30.629
one of my own arrives it will be like 25
01:23:30.639 --> 01:23:34.790
you know quit in you know back then like
01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:36.629
what if I want to buy five books it's
01:23:36.639 --> 01:23:39.910
like 100 quid plus there right so I
01:23:39.920 --> 01:23:42.709
would sit there and diligently study
01:23:42.719 --> 01:23:45.350
first which book I want to buy is it
01:23:45.360 --> 01:23:47.030
worth my [laughter]
01:23:47.040 --> 01:23:48.629
worth [snorts] my currency right worth
01:23:48.639 --> 01:23:51.270
my investment and there's this suddenly
01:23:51.280 --> 01:23:53.110
this book literally fells out of the
01:23:53.120 --> 01:23:56.149
shelf on me and this autobiography of
01:23:56.159 --> 01:23:57.830
Swami Muktanandanda spiritual
01:23:57.840 --> 01:24:00.390
autobiography play of consciousness and
01:24:00.400 --> 01:24:03.430
of course it's like wow it was like it
01:24:03.440 --> 01:24:06.470
was utterly and entirely revelatory and
01:24:06.480 --> 01:24:08.390
then I come back for another book by the
01:24:08.400 --> 01:24:12.149
same author another book and then this
01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:15.830
book secret of the cedars by Swami
01:24:15.840 --> 01:24:18.790
Mktanandanda which basically
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:20.870
He gives this
01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:25.350
uh mouthfuls like this nudgets of the
01:24:25.360 --> 01:24:28.149
creme de la creme of Kashmir shaveism
01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:30.950
you know bimba pratib bimba you know
01:24:30.960 --> 01:24:33.830
like the the the doctrine of reflection
01:24:33.840 --> 01:24:36.709
spand the doctrine of vibration you know
01:24:36.719 --> 01:24:38.950
the vignyana
01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:41.430
tantra you know the
01:24:41.440 --> 01:24:44.790
117 methods of meditation all this like
01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:48.629
and all this under one one beautiful
01:24:48.639 --> 01:24:51.669
system of philosophy known as tricker
01:24:51.679 --> 01:24:54.149
shivism. Of course, there was no
01:24:54.159 --> 01:24:56.870
stopping of me like whole bookshelf
01:24:56.880 --> 01:24:59.750
there is the top shelf. It's all
01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:01.430
scriptures
01:25:01.440 --> 01:25:04.463
of that of respective tradition because
01:25:04.473 --> 01:25:05.669
[clears throat] it also has different
01:25:05.679 --> 01:25:08.870
schools. There are three four major four
01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:13.350
major schools in that Kashmir shaveism
01:25:13.360 --> 01:25:15.430
which by the way Kashmir shism is a more
01:25:15.440 --> 01:25:18.229
of a popular term. The scholarly term is
01:25:18.239 --> 01:25:21.830
tricker shivism which literally uh
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:25.030
tricker as the root term here stands for
01:25:25.040 --> 01:25:29.350
trinity and the trinity here uh where
01:25:29.360 --> 01:25:33.350
this philosophy gains its name is Shiva
01:25:33.360 --> 01:25:37.350
shakti n Shiva as awareness shakti as
01:25:37.360 --> 01:25:40.149
the means of knowledge and n as this
01:25:40.159 --> 01:25:43.270
individual and the world and that is the
01:25:43.280 --> 01:25:47.750
constituency of experience itself.
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:51.030
Because that's seeing
01:25:51.040 --> 01:25:52.550
seen
01:25:52.560 --> 01:25:54.070
this
01:25:54.080 --> 01:25:58.470
modalities that consciousness under goes
01:25:58.480 --> 01:25:59.990
modulation
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.629
in order to have experience.
01:26:02.639 --> 01:26:04.550
Of course there was no turning back. The
01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:07.030
beauty of knowledge of course is the
01:26:07.040 --> 01:26:10.390
what nosis is is that it's not knowing
01:26:10.400 --> 01:26:13.110
something that is external to one's own
01:26:13.120 --> 01:26:16.149
awareness or one's own consciousness.
01:26:16.159 --> 01:26:18.870
It's not learning something new. It's by
01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:21.510
virtue of recognizing what one already
01:26:21.520 --> 01:26:24.550
is and not in abstract terms in this
01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:29.270
case in a very precise in a very
01:26:29.280 --> 01:26:31.110
symmetrical
01:26:31.120 --> 01:26:33.750
coherent cohesive manner. And of course
01:26:33.760 --> 01:26:37.750
once I was you know introduced to even
01:26:37.760 --> 01:26:40.070
the nudgets of the teachings of Akinavag
01:26:40.080 --> 01:26:43.270
Gupta who praises an artist and activity
01:26:43.280 --> 01:26:46.709
of the spectators the highest form of
01:26:46.719 --> 01:26:49.590
aesthetic rupture right which is
01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:52.070
basically the the chamatara that one of
01:26:52.080 --> 01:26:55.750
the books that was right that both of
01:26:55.760 --> 01:26:58.550
you I trust have why this became my
01:26:58.560 --> 01:27:02.310
first book why chamatara why this
01:27:02.320 --> 01:27:04.390
because This meant to serve as that
01:27:04.400 --> 01:27:07.270
transition as that bridge as that link
01:27:07.280 --> 01:27:10.149
between life of an artist and a light of
01:27:10.159 --> 01:27:12.870
a spiritual guide. It's an encapsulation
01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:16.790
of a lot of this into this slim I hope
01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:19.750
easy to read and enjoyable and inspiring
01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:21.990
book which by the way has a great
01:27:22.000 --> 01:27:24.149
following among artists, dancers,
01:27:24.159 --> 01:27:27.030
composers, musicians. we were like the
01:27:27.040 --> 01:27:28.950
the feedback we've received when we
01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:31.110
published this book right which
01:27:31.120 --> 01:27:34.070
coincided of course with the finding our
01:27:34.080 --> 01:27:35.510
own publishing cars because I didn't
01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:37.590
want to be dependent on any kind of
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:39.669
existing I wanted published the book
01:27:39.679 --> 01:27:42.950
that is today in the 21st century when
01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:45.189
everyone is obsessed with digit with
01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:48.070
with the gadgets still printed in
01:27:48.080 --> 01:27:51.270
Germany if you love books guys you
01:27:51.280 --> 01:27:54.390
should you should you should shout out
01:27:54.400 --> 01:27:57.990
because you Stitched. Stitched. Come on,
01:27:58.000 --> 01:28:00.870
guys. How many people?
01:28:00.880 --> 01:28:03.430
>> Yeah, you know, stitched.
01:28:03.440 --> 01:28:04.950
>> Yeah, it's got a very nice finish as
01:28:04.960 --> 01:28:06.390
well. The cover, it has this nice
01:28:06.400 --> 01:28:08.870
texture to it. But I I was compelled by
01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:10.870
the reasons that that you've implied. We
01:28:10.880 --> 01:28:12.070
didn't get this one.
01:28:12.080 --> 01:28:13.830
>> Yeah, this Well, that's that's a limited
01:28:13.840 --> 01:28:15.590
edition. You'll get it. We wanted to
01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:17.910
first see how you're going to behave in
01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:19.590
this interview if you're going to be
01:28:19.600 --> 01:28:20.310
very [laughter] kind.
01:28:20.320 --> 01:28:21.510
>> This is
01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:23.110
>> Yeah, that's the limited edition
01:28:23.120 --> 01:28:25.910
tobacco. Look at this. This is
01:28:25.920 --> 01:28:26.790
beautiful. [laughter]
01:28:26.800 --> 01:28:28.550
You know, copper embossment. You can
01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:29.510
barely see.
01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:31.030
>> But they they are themselves, I guess,
01:28:31.040 --> 01:28:32.790
kind of part of the artwork. And this is
01:28:32.800 --> 01:28:34.709
the thing. You still say you're an
01:28:34.719 --> 01:28:36.950
artist. There's a way you can't get away
01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:39.110
because you can imagine a kind of a
01:28:39.120 --> 01:28:41.030
someone who's gone down this road. Not
01:28:41.040 --> 01:28:42.950
even, you know, I'll I'll I'll leak the
01:28:42.960 --> 01:28:45.430
PDF. It'll come out on cheap paper. It
01:28:45.440 --> 01:28:46.629
doesn't matter. You know, it's more
01:28:46.639 --> 01:28:48.870
about But there's something in even
01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:50.870
finding Renaissance form a little much.
01:28:50.880 --> 01:28:53.110
There is something in form that is
01:28:53.120 --> 01:28:55.030
important. And in the way that you were
01:28:55.040 --> 01:28:57.750
led to this place kind of by aesthetic
01:28:57.760 --> 01:29:00.550
judgment like through poetry through
01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:02.310
discontent or content with certain
01:29:02.320 --> 01:29:04.470
things and that there is a truth in
01:29:04.480 --> 01:29:06.149
aesthetics which is of course one of the
01:29:06.159 --> 01:29:07.510
great in the west at least one of the
01:29:07.520 --> 01:29:09.510
great conflicts in philosophy is you
01:29:09.520 --> 01:29:11.750
know is aesthetics is this does it
01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:13.110
contain anything or is it just
01:29:13.120 --> 01:29:16.550
distraction but your entire kind of line
01:29:16.560 --> 01:29:19.430
your entire vision is to combine the two
01:29:19.440 --> 01:29:21.830
and this is why I found that first book
01:29:21.840 --> 01:29:23.910
compelling because it does. It's from
01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:25.750
the artist's point of view. It's saying,
01:29:25.760 --> 01:29:27.270
you know, have you experienced the
01:29:27.280 --> 01:29:29.750
rapture of beauty? Have you felt that
01:29:29.760 --> 01:29:31.990
pull of creativity, that moment where
01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:34.470
it's almost writing you? You're sort of
01:29:34.480 --> 01:29:36.709
you're just in it and you get that itch,
01:29:36.719 --> 01:29:38.950
this urge, this actual discomfort until
01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:41.430
you get it out. You know that and that
01:29:41.440 --> 01:29:44.390
to translate that into the uh religious
01:29:44.400 --> 01:29:46.310
feeling or the spiritual feeling or the
01:29:46.320 --> 01:29:49.110
cosmic existential feeling, that's a
01:29:49.120 --> 01:29:51.189
very powerful metaphor. Even if it is a
01:29:51.199 --> 01:29:53.110
metaphor, maybe it's just a one for one
01:29:53.120 --> 01:29:55.510
equivalence that you don't often get
01:29:55.520 --> 01:29:57.669
elsewhere because again you get with
01:29:57.679 --> 01:29:59.189
with the kind of deep thinker
01:29:59.199 --> 01:30:01.750
philosophical stereotype often an
01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:04.070
aversion to these things that seem maybe
01:30:04.080 --> 01:30:06.870
whimsical or flippant or sort of well
01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:09.590
it's pretty but we've got to cut away
01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:11.830
the colors and just get to the the truth
01:30:11.840 --> 01:30:14.790
the kind of black and white text. But I
01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:16.550
think it's it's yeah there's just
01:30:16.560 --> 01:30:18.390
something very attractive in finding in
01:30:18.400 --> 01:30:21.910
reality the creative urge. This is in
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:23.669
fact the engine in the middle of
01:30:23.679 --> 01:30:25.910
everything. Creation is itself
01:30:25.920 --> 01:30:28.470
constantly recreating constantly
01:30:28.480 --> 01:30:30.629
reproducing and that we are kind of you
01:30:30.639 --> 01:30:33.110
know pylons of that creativity. We
01:30:33.120 --> 01:30:35.189
aren't just in creation looking at it
01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:37.910
but constantly reproducing it. And that
01:30:37.920 --> 01:30:40.310
that's sort of a reason to live which is
01:30:40.320 --> 01:30:41.910
I think you know this is when people are
01:30:41.920 --> 01:30:43.910
looking for meaning abstractly. Fine.
01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:45.350
Some people want mechanisms and they
01:30:45.360 --> 01:30:46.870
want structures and they want to
01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:49.270
understand the ethology of A to B. But I
01:30:49.280 --> 01:30:51.590
think ultimately is why bother doing
01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:55.750
anything? Why does anything exist? And
01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:58.229
this at least on some level does give a
01:30:58.239 --> 01:31:00.470
very profound rationale. It's like well
01:31:00.480 --> 01:31:02.390
that you feel this way in order to get
01:31:02.400 --> 01:31:04.310
here and everything you know we get this
01:31:04.320 --> 01:31:06.550
this the image of the coiled serpent
01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:09.510
which is wanting to extend itself and
01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:12.229
and that is and that's in Kundalini the
01:31:12.239 --> 01:31:14.790
the the the other book that we got but
01:31:14.800 --> 01:31:16.950
yeah it's just as a notion very
01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:19.350
compelling to try and marry these worlds
01:31:19.360 --> 01:31:22.390
and I wonder now that you know I seem to
01:31:22.400 --> 01:31:23.830
be picking up that you haven't painted
01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:25.430
in a while but there is there any
01:31:25.440 --> 01:31:27.990
artistic practice you can still engage
01:31:28.000 --> 01:31:30.070
in or is it now fully
01:31:30.080 --> 01:31:31.830
It has to be the books. It has to be the
01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:33.990
talking and the spiritual guidance. Or
01:31:34.000 --> 01:31:35.430
is there some part of you that still,
01:31:35.440 --> 01:31:37.830
you know, wants to pick up a brush or or
01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:39.910
a chisel or whatever and really create
01:31:39.920 --> 01:31:41.669
some some image?
01:31:41.679 --> 01:31:45.430
>> There is this maybe certain absolutism
01:31:45.440 --> 01:31:47.750
in my own character. I don't like
01:31:47.760 --> 01:31:49.510
dubbing. I never liked dubbing with
01:31:49.520 --> 01:31:51.350
anything.
01:31:51.360 --> 01:31:53.910
You see, like I never liked just doing
01:31:53.920 --> 01:31:56.629
things like ah, you know, this. Oh,
01:31:56.639 --> 01:31:57.990
maybe just this.
01:31:58.000 --> 01:32:00.390
>> Yeah. It has to be a complete devotion.
01:32:00.400 --> 01:32:02.870
>> Exactly. If I'm if like if I'm if I'm
01:32:02.880 --> 01:32:06.149
having tea, it's not like a mug with you
01:32:06.159 --> 01:32:12.070
know that sashet sticking out and then
01:32:12.080 --> 01:32:14.229
>> yeah [laughter] something
01:32:14.239 --> 01:32:18.709
and I'm on the go somewhere and so what
01:32:18.719 --> 01:32:20.870
I understood also and it's not a
01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:22.550
justification of some kind because some
01:32:22.560 --> 01:32:25.030
people may oh yeah
01:32:25.040 --> 01:32:28.870
everything is gestural expression and
01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:33.270
again in art and what artists, painters
01:32:33.280 --> 01:32:35.669
in particular are fascinated. I'm
01:32:35.679 --> 01:32:37.990
talking about myself and the circle that
01:32:38.000 --> 01:32:40.070
I grew up and everything in this
01:32:40.080 --> 01:32:42.870
gestural expression continues
01:32:42.880 --> 01:32:46.390
in whichever form it takes and it takes
01:32:46.400 --> 01:32:49.430
as much creative pain and investment and
01:32:49.440 --> 01:32:52.629
involvement as it did when it's you know
01:32:52.639 --> 01:32:55.830
solving something let's say shaping just
01:32:55.840 --> 01:32:58.149
with colors not to tell you what it took
01:32:58.159 --> 01:33:00.709
to break that you know years of academic
01:33:00.719 --> 01:33:03.110
training how I had to throw myself at
01:33:03.120 --> 01:33:05.030
another end completely
01:33:05.040 --> 01:33:06.870
There are so many works that are not not
01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:09.350
not even photographed and not available
01:33:09.360 --> 01:33:12.870
in in in public. I did calligraphy work
01:33:12.880 --> 01:33:15.510
on a very large scale a whole series in
01:33:15.520 --> 01:33:18.629
Poland. I did work like I would work
01:33:18.639 --> 01:33:20.550
like Jackson Pollock Pollock on the
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:23.830
floor deliberately so as to break that
01:33:23.840 --> 01:33:27.270
uh let's say format of artists standing
01:33:27.280 --> 01:33:30.310
in front of the easel because I did that
01:33:30.320 --> 01:33:33.910
since the age of 12. So I had to change
01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:36.149
the posture, change the the gravity,
01:33:36.159 --> 01:33:39.299
change the you know expression.
01:33:39.309 --> 01:33:39.350
[clears throat]
01:33:39.360 --> 01:33:41.910
>> So no
01:33:41.920 --> 01:33:44.709
you you you you know that within
01:33:44.719 --> 01:33:49.590
yourself right you if you are a poet you
01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:52.229
may not compose a line in five years
01:33:52.239 --> 01:33:56.470
does not mean you're no longer a poet.
01:33:56.480 --> 01:33:59.350
>> You answer me that you don't need to
01:33:59.360 --> 01:34:01.750
answer that. [laughter]
01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:04.310
You reflect on that. You see, poet is a
01:34:04.320 --> 01:34:07.189
is a way of seeing.
01:34:07.199 --> 01:34:10.310
>> Poet is the way of experiencing reality.
01:34:10.320 --> 01:34:12.629
Poet is a complete and utter constant
01:34:12.639 --> 01:34:15.669
constant walking on the edge. It's a
01:34:15.679 --> 01:34:17.669
constant sacrifice.
01:34:17.679 --> 01:34:21.830
Is a constant working with metaphor.
01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:24.070
It's constantly being in touch with
01:34:24.080 --> 01:34:26.149
archetypes.
01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:28.070
It's transforming reality through your
01:34:28.080 --> 01:34:30.070
own being constantly. That's what poetry
01:34:30.080 --> 01:34:32.870
to me is. I think we should wind towards
01:34:32.880 --> 01:34:34.229
the end. It's been a great pleasure to
01:34:34.239 --> 01:34:35.590
have you, Eagle. Thanks so much for
01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:38.629
making time. Um, for my uh final
01:34:38.639 --> 01:34:41.590
question, I'm going to exploit uh a a
01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:43.430
certain gimmick. If someone wants to
01:34:43.440 --> 01:34:46.950
experience a sort of a transcendental
01:34:46.960 --> 01:34:48.390
and yeah, I don't I don't want to go
01:34:48.400 --> 01:34:50.470
into this language of this world and
01:34:50.480 --> 01:34:53.430
another world beyond it. But if someone
01:34:53.440 --> 01:34:58.870
wants to encounter reality directly, uh
01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:01.830
thoroughly fully who's watching this,
01:35:01.840 --> 01:35:05.110
what do you think is the best first step
01:35:05.120 --> 01:35:07.669
towards ultimate reality? How do you
01:35:07.679 --> 01:35:09.270
come into contact with it?
01:35:09.280 --> 01:35:11.750
>> Well, do you want a serious or humorous
01:35:11.760 --> 01:35:13.110
answer?
01:35:13.120 --> 01:35:16.310
>> We'll go for the the humorous answer
01:35:16.320 --> 01:35:19.110
that leads into the serious answer.
01:35:19.120 --> 01:35:22.709
>> Okay. So first you need to join and
01:35:22.719 --> 01:35:26.470
follow me and become a cult member so
01:35:26.480 --> 01:35:30.070
that you are initiated and given access
01:35:30.080 --> 01:35:33.189
to the treasures of who you are. And
01:35:33.199 --> 01:35:37.830
only after that when you excel and show
01:35:37.840 --> 01:35:40.310
your commitment and devotion for 10
01:35:40.320 --> 01:35:42.950
years you will be given access to the
01:35:42.960 --> 01:35:45.669
hermeneutic side of the teaching. If you
01:35:45.679 --> 01:35:47.590
survive,
01:35:47.600 --> 01:35:49.350
>> if you survive,
01:35:49.360 --> 01:35:52.709
>> then it will be revealed to you
01:35:52.719 --> 01:35:54.310
spontaneously.
01:35:54.320 --> 01:35:59.110
And to take that uh let's say analogy in
01:35:59.120 --> 01:36:01.750
a more accessible language, nothing you
01:36:01.760 --> 01:36:05.510
can do whatsoever to be closer to who
01:36:05.520 --> 01:36:09.510
you are, no matter how much you try.
01:36:09.520 --> 01:36:12.629
Because that's the first step and that's
01:36:12.639 --> 01:36:15.110
the last step as well.
01:36:15.120 --> 01:36:18.550
Because one's essence is what illumines
01:36:18.560 --> 01:36:20.550
every experience.
01:36:20.560 --> 01:36:24.709
One's essence is what conceals one's
01:36:24.719 --> 01:36:26.870
essence from oneself.
01:36:26.880 --> 01:36:30.470
And it is one's essence that is grace
01:36:30.480 --> 01:36:33.910
revealing power. That is what uplifts
01:36:33.920 --> 01:36:38.229
one by pulling one from the may of
01:36:38.239 --> 01:36:42.470
delusion as Baronhausen pulled himself
01:36:42.480 --> 01:36:47.350
out of that right maya together with his
01:36:47.360 --> 01:36:51.830
horse by firmly clenching his thighs so
01:36:51.840 --> 01:36:54.470
that the creature does not die as well.
01:36:54.480 --> 01:36:57.030
We can see there's a great compassion in
01:36:57.040 --> 01:36:59.830
that hero.
01:36:59.840 --> 01:37:02.709
So,
01:37:02.719 --> 01:37:09.510
take it or leave it.
01:37:09.520 --> 01:37:10.870
>> Thanks so much for making the time,
01:37:10.880 --> 01:37:13.669
Mugle. It was lovely to speak with you.
01:37:13.679 --> 01:37:17.280
>> Really? Yeah, it's it's been a pleasure.