WEBVTT
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So we also worked on this exemption back in the days.
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It's comparable with our work on the cyber resilience act
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and the product liability directives.
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So that we wanted to protect individual developers.
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We wanted to protect their communities,
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projects to not fall under regulations
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if they release something under a free software license.
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Before we start of the podcast,
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we would like to say thank you to all of you
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who support the FSFE's work of money.
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Working for software freedom
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Please consider supporting us with our donation
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Okay. So let's get started. Yes. Yes. Hello.
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And welcome to the software freedom podcast.
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The podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation
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Europe. We are a charity that empowers users to take control
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of technology. I'm Bonnie Mehring.
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And I'm here with my colleague Alex. Hi, Alex.
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Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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I'm happy to be again in the podcast episode talking with you
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about policy topics of the European Union.
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And today we will talk about the AI act and latest developments here.
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So Alex, we are nearly there in the summer pass.
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But this year it does not really look like a good start
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for the European Parliament or at least at a relaxing start.
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Can you tell us what's happened in the last weeks?
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Yeah, absolutely. And so a few years ago,
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we debated around the regulation of AI and the result was the famous AI act.
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And in August, the first regulations of the AI act will enter into force.
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And followed by other regulations going to be implemented by summer
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2026. So we are now basically in the moment where the first
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regulations of the AI act enter into force and companies have to
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fulfill the obligations from the AI act. But companies are now
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attacking the AI act and they go with a so-called stop the clock
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attempt. So they want that the AI act is going to be
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paused at least for the next two years so that they can implement
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the rules of the AI act. This actually basically,
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yeah, one could say an attack on the whole AI act.
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So they said, want to have this stopped, which would mean
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all the regulations and rules the decision-makers came up with just
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recently would not enter into force.
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Nothing would happen. AI would remain unregulated
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for the next years. And that's something, yeah, which
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has huge effects in particular on consumers in the opinion, but also
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worldwide. Since I think the rules that became up with
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in the AI act have a reason, right? So since we want to regulate AI and
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we see actual debates what AI is doing and how it could harm.
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And thus we need this regulation. And that's why we need to talk about this
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attempt. Why it's there, what it would mean and also how civil
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society reacted on this since this attempt by the companies
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was not a standalone activity, but civil society actors also reacted on this
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yesterday and countering this and asking the commission
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to stand and keep the position to let the AI act enter into force.
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So a lot is happening. I think we will walk through this step by step, right?
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Yeah, that's a good idea. I think so as well.
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Because I was like, oh my god, there's a lot of time
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passing by. And I mean, there are only a few days left until August. So
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and until the AI act starts. So but let's start with the beginning.
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Can you vary briefly outline what the scope of the AI act is? I know it's a
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document with over 100 pages, but is there a way to break this down for
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me and our listeners? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the European Union
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were discussing AI already a few years ago. So I think now it's
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even seven or eight years ago when the parliament even created an
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own committee where they discussed AI, the commission were running tons of
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consultations and so on and so forth. And then they started to work on the law,
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drafting this law. And during that time when the law was
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discussed then in the institutions, even after the commission proposal,
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all of these famous LLM's popped up, right? So and thus they also want to
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regulate this. And in the nutshell, the European Union came up with a
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regulation for high risk AI, but also they regulated so-called
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general purpose AI. And the rules on these general purpose AI,
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they are going to be entered into force in August. So this is what we are
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facing now. And on the high risk AI, this is going to enter into force
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next year, 2026. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, before we dive into this, before we dive into this,
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what is general purpose of AI and what is high risk AI? Yeah, a general purpose.
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Yeah, a general purpose AI is basically what we
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is something like chat GPT or these large language models, right? Hacking phase or
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all of these. This is general purpose AI, but also this general purpose AI, but also
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other AI that reaches certain thresholds. So to say when it's
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interfering with fundamental rights, for example, or if it's going
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beyond asking questions, get the answer and can
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live is it? Yeah, but if this AI takes decisions, for example, right? So
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and which could lead to serious harms. So then it's called a high risk AI.
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And then there are more obligations on how you need to handle this. So there are
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transparency rules and there are like which kind of data could be used in
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which way do you need to inform consumers about it? And all of these kind of
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like regulations are there. And in particular, how data could be used in
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which way? This is what people discuss. There's also currently a debate
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ongoing about copyright in this regard, right? And one could say it's not a
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completely regulated AI. There are also ongoing other discussions. There is
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the so-called omnibus package so proposed by the Commission to
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simplify rules for companies in general. Also AI plays a role here.
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We have a copyright debate in the European Parliament on AI. There was also the
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AI Liability Act, which was withdrawn. So there is a lot of other AI
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discussions ongoing and companies now fear that they have unclear rules to
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follow and that they what they set up today is going to be
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reformed in a few months or in a very short time. And so that's why they
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for administrative burdens and for like over regulation they want to
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pause this. So and also the RQ that this is your losing jobs blah blah blah
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that's clear. They are losing money. But also the RQ is digital
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sovereignty. Since they say look it's the European market which is regulated
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while other markets are not regulated in particular at the US market.
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And that's why we are losing crowned and by thus we are losing digital
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sovereignty. So that's part of their argumentation. And that's how they look
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on those regulations on high risk and the general purpose of AI.
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But most of the lobby attempts are like pretty short term oriented on this
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general purpose AI. So basically what we know as
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chat GPT and we'd like that. So this is basically what we are talking about now.
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My last question in the regard to AI act is
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I research how free software is standing in it. And I find out
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the regulation does not apply to AI systems released under free and open-source licenses.
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Unless they are placed on the market or put into service as high-risk AI systems
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or as an AI system that falls under some of special articles. Anything you want to amend
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here or to add. Yeah so and that's the interesting part now. So we also worked on this
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exemption back in the days. It's comparable with our work on the cyber resilience act and the
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product liability directives. So that we wanted to protect individual developers. We wanted to
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protect their communities projects to not fall under regulations if they release something under
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free software license. And this is for example used by Big Tech. And then you as a small project
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have to take the applications and not Big Tech. This is a short break for our own cause.
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Thank you for listening to the software freedom podcast. Working for software freedom and
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producing podcasts costs money. Please consider supporting us with a donation
00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.760
under fsfe.org/donate and then the show notes.
00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:54.360
And this is for example used by Big Tech. And then you as a small project have to take the
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applications and not Big Tech. That's the status and around this group which I just said that they
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send the letter to the European Commission to pause the AI act to stop the clock. So they want
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to postpone all of this as said at least for two years. But it's also interesting how they
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argue. So again, so it's on a loose innovation power that they will do with jobs and so on and
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so forth. And it's also interesting if you look at the investments that have been already put into
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AI in the last years. So to say there is a lot of money in this game. And we also learned that
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first day eye companies struggle a lot to make profit out of this. So and this means whatever comes
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up that will cost them might and in this duration that we see AI companies struggling or even
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just burning money and go bankrupt. And so thus they start to lobby. So and they do not
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have to be regulated. And since this is what they fear is costing a lot of money. And but that's
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they fear their profits. So in this way then those jobs and so on and so forth. But also they
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argue and they use the word digital sovereignty here. So and this is interesting since we for
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example say digital sovereignty means for us also that yeah you need to look at your core
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infrastructure. This is free software of core infrastructure. Also we have this public money
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public code campaign where we ask that publicly financed software should be made available under
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free software license. So with this I do believe this is something which is really digital
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sovereignty right. So as you said you want to have control over your technology. But what they are
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doing is not having control over technology. But rather coming up with unregulated AI. And this
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is what they are asking for and claiming this to be digital sovereignty. And that's an interesting
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move how they try to frame this word now in a way that is completely misleading and also has
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nothing to do with digital sovereignty. So what is an unregulated AI coming from the European
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Union. So how does this contribute to digital sovereignty. So and here we can see that they
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yeah really using like every every bullet they have in order to to make their point. And also
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it looks a bit like that they are a bit desperate. So to say it's also lacking arguments. So
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the only argument they come up with is we will lose jobs. And I do believe if you look at these
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companies they always say we are over regulated right and we want to have less regulation. But this
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also means no protection for consumers. And here we need to say that we came up to say I act not
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in the first place right not to regulate a market so to say but in the first place to protect
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consumers. And I do believe it's a valid point when we talk about this AI and when we also when
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we see what AI is capable to do to protect consumers to inform consumers right. I find this very
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fascinating because okay I have two questions that came to my mind during this conversation now.
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I will ask the first one first and then I will also ask the second one okay. So the first one
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I find it's very fascinating this kind of argumentation especially those the argument of digital
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sovereignty as I keep on hearing this more often and often no matter where I go like to different
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conferences at different technological festivals. This is an argument that I hear a lot from
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more of the right being spectrum of politics to be honest. And I find this very interesting
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to see how they are how they argumentate that regulation is actually harming innovation.
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And yeah I'm very interested in this conversation there and I very interested to see how this
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will play out in a more political sphere as well. Any takes on that? Yeah I mean when also
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laugh on the line back in the days introduce this term digital sovereignty I already feel that
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this will be a huge fight around the term. So since nobody really knew or defined what it means
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what is digital sovereignty right. So and what was happening is that most of the time topics were
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discussed under this frame it was about chips it was about undersea cables it was also about software
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but it was never clear what's the concrete scope of this and what to achieve right so and thus
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it remained always a buzzword. I think the debate in the last or in the first term of also laugh
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on the line also showcased that there's a need to be a bit more precise here and that's why
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they also slightly change the term and introduce this kind of work on the first commissioner
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working on so-called tech sovereignty. So the European Commission distanced itself one could say
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from the term digital sovereignty and transferring it to tech sovereignty still this means it's
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also not completely defined and this also means that everyone out there is trying to define it. We
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try to define it if our right is trying to define it big tech is trying to define it and the
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question is where do we end here so and it's definitely a fight which also yeah it's addressing
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some various or so the result is some very strange arguments and some very strange attempts
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to influence politics. We also see now a very strong movement the so-called Bayou
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movement which is then in the far right often by national so for example in France they say
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by French or in Germany by German so it's going in a completely wrong direction since if you look
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at the digital world we have to acknowledge that this is a global thing right so there is nothing
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like a national digital so everything is connected everywhere globally and for this I mean we all know
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free software plays a crucial role here and it's absolutely makes no sense to for example go
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to everyone to have a European software since this will lead to a sovereignty. First we have
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seen with the case of Mistral that it could easily happen that you have a European company the
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Monday and the next day it's a US company but also code is coming from all over the world right and
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be do not build from scratch but we build on what's already out there and this is again a global thing
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and I do feel that we are running this debate in a completely wrong direction since we
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rather talk about borders then instead of like how do we and globally react yeah it takes to our
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core infrastructure which have influences on the whole world and not just Europe or the
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western world so to say right and this is something which we can see so that everyone is using
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or one could also say miss using the term ditches of rarity or in other terms in order to make
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their points for their business or to argue for their ideology right so since the European
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Commission did not really define what they mean so and this is also something which we need to
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address in this term and we already discussed this in latest podcast episodes when we were talking
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about the taxoranity report as well as a procurement report where I do believe that if we manage it
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to talk about strategic goals in taxoranity and procurement then we are also able to define
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what we really mean with this and also are able to claim that this is a global thing and not a
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national nor a European activity which is which is ending at borders so to say or that we do not
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mean the free flow of unregulated AI with digital sovereignty but that we mean we want to have
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controls over technology. True free software. Precisely. I just wanted to add just a little bit to
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do so nicely dear. All right and now I'm wondering so we already discussed that there is an
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exception for free software that is not high risk AI systems and we already discussed that there's
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this letter but how a civil society is a whole reacting to this. So and just one or two days after
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this letter of the companies have been released so maybe let's also start from scratch here so the
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so there was discussions around stopping the clock. The European Commission spokesperson
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said we won't stop the clock we are going to continue then the CEO came up with this open
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letter we just discussed and another two days later the yeah basically European civil society
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stand up and also wrote the open letter and said to the Commission stand where you are and
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do not stop the clock it's important that the regulation is going to be implemented as for
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seen and as planned. So and with the European Digital Society the mainly mean European Digital Rights
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which is the umbrella organization of digital rights organizations from Europe where we are also
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a member of this organization and others like consumer protections organizations so for example
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Boyk was there and so which is basically the umbrella organization of all consumer protection
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agencies in the member states or this would be for example in Germany and the from power
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central so there are these official consumer protection bodies that have an umbrella organizations
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there so even there so which is basically a very an organization also paid by governments
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so they also fight here for consumer rights so a large group of 50 organizations
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of civil society organizations coming from the digital but also from the consumer protection
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area came together to counter this letter of the companies and and said look if we need
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these rules since we want to protect consumers and so now I do believe that there will be a fight
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over the summer break until August if the commission will stand at its position and will implement
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as for seen or if the companies will be successful with their lobbying and that there will be a stop
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the clock mechanism. Also since we have this deadline with August which is just a few weeks ahead
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of us or I expect to be I expect to see more of these kinds of initiatives more pressure on the
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commission and it will be very interesting to see if the commission will stand at its position and
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we need to support them right so we need to go there and argue against so that's why it was a very
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good thing from European Digital society as well as consumer protection bodies to to come up with
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this letter and to counter this and to to take this fight and to protect consumers basically
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so that we from August on will have these rules on general will purpose AI being into force.
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.760
You will probably follow this conversation for us right?
00:21:53.640 --> 00:22:01.880
Absolutely and also most likely exactly and it's also most likely that we will come together
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:10.200
around August I guess where we might give a follow-up on this and yeah you dear listeners know
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:16.520
what happened in the end so if the rules on general purpose AI are implemented and or if they
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:24.200
postpone these and also how it's going to be continued with the high-risk AI and also as
00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:30.600
said there are currently discussions on copyright in the European Parliament which will be discussed
00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:37.960
on the 15th of July in the committee. Also here we will see how the debates are going to be
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:45.160
kicked off or ended so depending on how you look at it and then we will cover this yeah
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:51.640
most likely in August and see what happened until then if you should happen to run into decision
00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:58.600
makers working on this let them know that we as civil society want those rules we want
00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:05.160
that the AI act enters into force as for them and as planned there should be no further delay
00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:08.040
so let them know that this is our position and maybe this helps.
00:23:09.560 --> 00:23:14.360
Thank you so much Alex thank you so much for walking us through AI act and about the current
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:22.600
debates here in light of the time I would say we cut a close here any closing remarks from your side
00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:32.200
on this AI act point. Not only AI act but I have a remark on our podcast so since we have a transcript
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:39.400
of the podcast which is generated automatically we were wondering if you are using this if you
00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:46.040
read through this and how you like it and if you see any kind of improvements we could implement
00:23:46.600 --> 00:23:54.920
that are easily to be implement so we don't want to spend 20 hours on a very perfect transcript so
00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:00.360
this is not possible with our resources but if you could have a look at this and let us know if this
00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:06.040
is something which is useful for you or how we can improve it with two or three clicks then we are
00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:12.040
also happy to learn from you and yeah let us know if this is a useful thing with the transcript
00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:20.360
if you use it and if you see any improvements for us. Thank you thank you very much for pointing
00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:27.400
this out and we are happy to welcome your feedback. So Alex thank you so much for your time thank you
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:33.960
so much for being here it was a pleasure as always and yeah thank you. Looking forward to the next
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:41.640
episode. I also have something that I would like to highlight now before the summer pause starts. I
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.640
know we will be back in August but until our next software freedom podcast episode I would like
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:54.600
to point out a podcast to you called Linux InLaws. The Linux InLaws is a podcast hosted by
00:24:54.600 --> 00:25:01.320
Chris and Martin and Martin and Chris they just have a wonderful and easy way to talk about free
00:25:01.320 --> 00:25:06.840
software topics and yeah it's very easy to listen to and to dive into the ramps of the free
00:25:06.840 --> 00:25:14.760
software world in a fun and light way. I'm very happy to point you to the season two episode 40
00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:20.600
which was just recently released it's called flossing education and in this episode Martin
00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:25.640
and Chris talk about free software in the educational sector which I found very enlightening and
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:33.880
very funny and to also point you to a slightly older episode from season one episode 82 where Matthias
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:41.000
Kirschner our president read the book Ada and Zangemann. Yeah if you have some time give them a
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:47.640
listen and come back to our podcast afterwards. Happy to see you around.
00:25:50.600 --> 00:25:55.960
This was the software freedom podcast. If you liked this episode please recommend it to your friends
00:25:55.960 --> 00:26:01.400
and rate it. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explored the importance of
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:08.200
software freedom and its impact on our digital lives. This podcast is presented to you by the
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Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom.
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If you like our work please consider supporting us for the nation. You find more information
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under fsfe.org/donate. Bye bye and thank you so much for listening.
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:31.320
Hi I'm Björn Schiessle. I came to the fsfe 13 years ago as a volunteer where I started translating
00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:36.360
the web page and status of volunteers since then. I think fsfe is really important to have
00:26:36.520 --> 00:26:40.680
an independent voice in Europe to talk about free software because it becomes more and more
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:50.760
important in a digital society.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.560
So we also worked on this exemption back in the days.
00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:06.720
It's comparable with our work on the cyber resilience act
00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:08.920
and the product liability directives.
00:00:08.920 --> 00:00:12.080
So that we wanted to protect individual developers.
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.160
We wanted to protect their communities,
00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.680
projects to not fall under regulations
00:00:18.680 --> 00:00:21.920
if they release something under a free software license.
00:00:24.200 --> 00:00:26.120
Before we start of the podcast,
00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:28.240
we would like to say thank you to all of you
00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:30.880
who support the FSFE's work of money.
00:00:31.880 --> 00:00:33.480
Working for software freedom
00:00:33.480 --> 00:00:36.000
and producing podcasts cost money.
00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:39.360
Please consider supporting us with our donation
00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:43.320
on the FSFE.org/donate and in the show notes.
00:00:43.320 --> 00:01:11.800
Okay. So let's get started. Yes. Yes. Hello.
00:01:11.800 --> 00:01:14.200
And welcome to the software freedom podcast.
00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:17.320
The podcast is presented to you by the Free Software Foundation
00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:21.360
Europe. We are a charity that empowers users to take control
00:01:21.360 --> 00:01:23.680
of technology. I'm Bonnie Mehring.
00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.280
And I'm here with my colleague Alex. Hi, Alex.
00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:29.280
Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me.
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I'm happy to be again in the podcast episode talking with you
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about policy topics of the European Union.
00:01:35.080 --> 00:01:38.440
And today we will talk about the AI act and latest developments here.
00:01:39.440 --> 00:01:42.920
So Alex, we are nearly there in the summer pass.
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But this year it does not really look like a good start
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for the European Parliament or at least at a relaxing start.
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Can you tell us what's happened in the last weeks?
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Yeah, absolutely. And so a few years ago,
00:01:55.160 --> 00:02:01.960
we debated around the regulation of AI and the result was the famous AI act.
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And in August, the first regulations of the AI act will enter into force.
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And followed by other regulations going to be implemented by summer
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2026. So we are now basically in the moment where the first
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regulations of the AI act enter into force and companies have to
00:02:23.480 --> 00:02:28.440
fulfill the obligations from the AI act. But companies are now
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attacking the AI act and they go with a so-called stop the clock
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attempt. So they want that the AI act is going to be
00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:40.440
paused at least for the next two years so that they can implement
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the rules of the AI act. This actually basically,
00:02:44.200 --> 00:02:47.400
yeah, one could say an attack on the whole AI act.
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So they said, want to have this stopped, which would mean
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all the regulations and rules the decision-makers came up with just
00:02:55.880 --> 00:02:59.080
recently would not enter into force.
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Nothing would happen. AI would remain unregulated
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for the next years. And that's something, yeah, which
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has huge effects in particular on consumers in the opinion, but also
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worldwide. Since I think the rules that became up with
00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:19.880
in the AI act have a reason, right? So since we want to regulate AI and
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we see actual debates what AI is doing and how it could harm.
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And thus we need this regulation. And that's why we need to talk about this
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attempt. Why it's there, what it would mean and also how civil
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society reacted on this since this attempt by the companies
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was not a standalone activity, but civil society actors also reacted on this
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yesterday and countering this and asking the commission
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to stand and keep the position to let the AI act enter into force.
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So a lot is happening. I think we will walk through this step by step, right?
00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:05.400
Yeah, that's a good idea. I think so as well.
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Because I was like, oh my god, there's a lot of time
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passing by. And I mean, there are only a few days left until August. So
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and until the AI act starts. So but let's start with the beginning.
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Can you vary briefly outline what the scope of the AI act is? I know it's a
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document with over 100 pages, but is there a way to break this down for
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me and our listeners? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the European Union
00:04:33.880 --> 00:04:40.920
were discussing AI already a few years ago. So I think now it's
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even seven or eight years ago when the parliament even created an
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own committee where they discussed AI, the commission were running tons of
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consultations and so on and so forth. And then they started to work on the law,
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drafting this law. And during that time when the law was
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discussed then in the institutions, even after the commission proposal,
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all of these famous LLM's popped up, right? So and thus they also want to
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regulate this. And in the nutshell, the European Union came up with a
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regulation for high risk AI, but also they regulated so-called
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general purpose AI. And the rules on these general purpose AI,
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they are going to be entered into force in August. So this is what we are
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facing now. And on the high risk AI, this is going to enter into force
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next year, 2026. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, before we dive into this, before we dive into this,
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what is general purpose of AI and what is high risk AI? Yeah, a general purpose.
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Yeah, a general purpose AI is basically what we
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is something like chat GPT or these large language models, right? Hacking phase or
00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:57.400
all of these. This is general purpose AI, but also this general purpose AI, but also
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other AI that reaches certain thresholds. So to say when it's
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interfering with fundamental rights, for example, or if it's going
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beyond asking questions, get the answer and can
00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:16.120
live is it? Yeah, but if this AI takes decisions, for example, right? So
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and which could lead to serious harms. So then it's called a high risk AI.
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And then there are more obligations on how you need to handle this. So there are
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transparency rules and there are like which kind of data could be used in
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which way do you need to inform consumers about it? And all of these kind of
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like regulations are there. And in particular, how data could be used in
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which way? This is what people discuss. There's also currently a debate
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ongoing about copyright in this regard, right? And one could say it's not a
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completely regulated AI. There are also ongoing other discussions. There is
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the so-called omnibus package so proposed by the Commission to
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simplify rules for companies in general. Also AI plays a role here.
00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:12.120
We have a copyright debate in the European Parliament on AI. There was also the
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AI Liability Act, which was withdrawn. So there is a lot of other AI
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discussions ongoing and companies now fear that they have unclear rules to
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follow and that they what they set up today is going to be
00:07:26.760 --> 00:07:31.480
reformed in a few months or in a very short time. And so that's why they
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for administrative burdens and for like over regulation they want to
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pause this. So and also the RQ that this is your losing jobs blah blah blah
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that's clear. They are losing money. But also the RQ is digital
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sovereignty. Since they say look it's the European market which is regulated
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while other markets are not regulated in particular at the US market.
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And that's why we are losing crowned and by thus we are losing digital
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sovereignty. So that's part of their argumentation. And that's how they look
00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.800
on those regulations on high risk and the general purpose of AI.
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But most of the lobby attempts are like pretty short term oriented on this
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general purpose AI. So basically what we know as
00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:24.040
chat GPT and we'd like that. So this is basically what we are talking about now.
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My last question in the regard to AI act is
00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:32.360
I research how free software is standing in it. And I find out
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the regulation does not apply to AI systems released under free and open-source licenses.
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Unless they are placed on the market or put into service as high-risk AI systems
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or as an AI system that falls under some of special articles. Anything you want to amend
00:08:51.400 --> 00:08:57.480
here or to add. Yeah so and that's the interesting part now. So we also worked on this
00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:02.360
exemption back in the days. It's comparable with our work on the cyber resilience act and the
00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:08.680
product liability directives. So that we wanted to protect individual developers. We wanted to
00:09:08.680 --> 00:09:15.960
protect their communities projects to not fall under regulations if they release something under
00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:22.680
free software license. And this is for example used by Big Tech. And then you as a small project
00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:29.560
have to take the applications and not Big Tech. This is a short break for our own cause.
00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:35.320
Thank you for listening to the software freedom podcast. Working for software freedom and
00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:41.000
producing podcasts costs money. Please consider supporting us with a donation
00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.760
under fsfe.org/donate and then the show notes.
00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:54.360
And this is for example used by Big Tech. And then you as a small project have to take the
00:09:54.360 --> 00:10:00.920
applications and not Big Tech. That's the status and around this group which I just said that they
00:10:00.920 --> 00:10:07.000
send the letter to the European Commission to pause the AI act to stop the clock. So they want
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:14.120
to postpone all of this as said at least for two years. But it's also interesting how they
00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:22.120
argue. So again, so it's on a loose innovation power that they will do with jobs and so on and
00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:27.880
so forth. And it's also interesting if you look at the investments that have been already put into
00:10:27.880 --> 00:10:34.280
AI in the last years. So to say there is a lot of money in this game. And we also learned that
00:10:34.280 --> 00:10:40.920
first day eye companies struggle a lot to make profit out of this. So and this means whatever comes
00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:48.600
up that will cost them might and in this duration that we see AI companies struggling or even
00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:57.800
just burning money and go bankrupt. And so thus they start to lobby. So and they do not
00:10:57.800 --> 00:11:04.600
have to be regulated. And since this is what they fear is costing a lot of money. And but that's
00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:10.200
they fear their profits. So in this way then those jobs and so on and so forth. But also they
00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:16.200
argue and they use the word digital sovereignty here. So and this is interesting since we for
00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:22.840
example say digital sovereignty means for us also that yeah you need to look at your core
00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:28.200
infrastructure. This is free software of core infrastructure. Also we have this public money
00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:34.280
public code campaign where we ask that publicly financed software should be made available under
00:11:34.280 --> 00:11:41.000
free software license. So with this I do believe this is something which is really digital
00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:47.000
sovereignty right. So as you said you want to have control over your technology. But what they are
00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:54.280
doing is not having control over technology. But rather coming up with unregulated AI. And this
00:11:54.280 --> 00:11:59.960
is what they are asking for and claiming this to be digital sovereignty. And that's an interesting
00:11:59.960 --> 00:12:06.200
move how they try to frame this word now in a way that is completely misleading and also has
00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:12.360
nothing to do with digital sovereignty. So what is an unregulated AI coming from the European
00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:19.000
Union. So how does this contribute to digital sovereignty. So and here we can see that they
00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:27.400
yeah really using like every every bullet they have in order to to make their point. And also
00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:34.440
it looks a bit like that they are a bit desperate. So to say it's also lacking arguments. So
00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:40.760
the only argument they come up with is we will lose jobs. And I do believe if you look at these
00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:46.840
companies they always say we are over regulated right and we want to have less regulation. But this
00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:54.360
also means no protection for consumers. And here we need to say that we came up to say I act not
00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:59.960
in the first place right not to regulate a market so to say but in the first place to protect
00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:06.600
consumers. And I do believe it's a valid point when we talk about this AI and when we also when
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:13.000
we see what AI is capable to do to protect consumers to inform consumers right. I find this very
00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:19.720
fascinating because okay I have two questions that came to my mind during this conversation now.
00:13:20.280 --> 00:13:26.120
I will ask the first one first and then I will also ask the second one okay. So the first one
00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:32.440
I find it's very fascinating this kind of argumentation especially those the argument of digital
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:40.600
sovereignty as I keep on hearing this more often and often no matter where I go like to different
00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:46.760
conferences at different technological festivals. This is an argument that I hear a lot from
00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:54.760
more of the right being spectrum of politics to be honest. And I find this very interesting
00:13:54.760 --> 00:14:01.560
to see how they are how they argumentate that regulation is actually harming innovation.
00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:08.040
And yeah I'm very interested in this conversation there and I very interested to see how this
00:14:08.040 --> 00:14:15.640
will play out in a more political sphere as well. Any takes on that? Yeah I mean when also
00:14:15.640 --> 00:14:20.680
laugh on the line back in the days introduce this term digital sovereignty I already feel that
00:14:20.680 --> 00:14:29.320
this will be a huge fight around the term. So since nobody really knew or defined what it means
00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:37.560
what is digital sovereignty right. So and what was happening is that most of the time topics were
00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:43.800
discussed under this frame it was about chips it was about undersea cables it was also about software
00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:50.680
but it was never clear what's the concrete scope of this and what to achieve right so and thus
00:14:50.680 --> 00:14:57.320
it remained always a buzzword. I think the debate in the last or in the first term of also laugh
00:14:57.320 --> 00:15:03.320
on the line also showcased that there's a need to be a bit more precise here and that's why
00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:09.720
they also slightly change the term and introduce this kind of work on the first commissioner
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:16.360
working on so-called tech sovereignty. So the European Commission distanced itself one could say
00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.360
from the term digital sovereignty and transferring it to tech sovereignty still this means it's
00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:27.960
also not completely defined and this also means that everyone out there is trying to define it. We
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:33.800
try to define it if our right is trying to define it big tech is trying to define it and the
00:15:33.800 --> 00:15:40.440
question is where do we end here so and it's definitely a fight which also yeah it's addressing
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:47.320
some various or so the result is some very strange arguments and some very strange attempts
00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:53.400
to influence politics. We also see now a very strong movement the so-called Bayou
00:15:54.600 --> 00:16:00.120
movement which is then in the far right often by national so for example in France they say
00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:08.040
by French or in Germany by German so it's going in a completely wrong direction since if you look
00:16:08.040 --> 00:16:13.400
at the digital world we have to acknowledge that this is a global thing right so there is nothing
00:16:13.400 --> 00:16:21.000
like a national digital so everything is connected everywhere globally and for this I mean we all know
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:27.240
free software plays a crucial role here and it's absolutely makes no sense to for example go
00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.080
to everyone to have a European software since this will lead to a sovereignty. First we have
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seen with the case of Mistral that it could easily happen that you have a European company the
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Monday and the next day it's a US company but also code is coming from all over the world right and
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:51.080
be do not build from scratch but we build on what's already out there and this is again a global thing
00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:56.600
and I do feel that we are running this debate in a completely wrong direction since we
00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:05.240
rather talk about borders then instead of like how do we and globally react yeah it takes to our
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:11.400
core infrastructure which have influences on the whole world and not just Europe or the
00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:18.680
western world so to say right and this is something which we can see so that everyone is using
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or one could also say miss using the term ditches of rarity or in other terms in order to make
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:31.640
their points for their business or to argue for their ideology right so since the European
00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:36.920
Commission did not really define what they mean so and this is also something which we need to
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address in this term and we already discussed this in latest podcast episodes when we were talking
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about the taxoranity report as well as a procurement report where I do believe that if we manage it
00:17:50.120 --> 00:17:56.920
to talk about strategic goals in taxoranity and procurement then we are also able to define
00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:02.840
what we really mean with this and also are able to claim that this is a global thing and not a
00:18:02.840 --> 00:18:11.480
national nor a European activity which is which is ending at borders so to say or that we do not
00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:19.480
mean the free flow of unregulated AI with digital sovereignty but that we mean we want to have
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controls over technology. True free software. Precisely. I just wanted to add just a little bit to
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do so nicely dear. All right and now I'm wondering so we already discussed that there is an
00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:50.840
exception for free software that is not high risk AI systems and we already discussed that there's
00:18:50.840 --> 00:18:59.400
this letter but how a civil society is a whole reacting to this. So and just one or two days after
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this letter of the companies have been released so maybe let's also start from scratch here so the
00:19:06.040 --> 00:19:11.720
so there was discussions around stopping the clock. The European Commission spokesperson
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:18.520
said we won't stop the clock we are going to continue then the CEO came up with this open
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letter we just discussed and another two days later the yeah basically European civil society
00:19:24.600 --> 00:19:30.920
stand up and also wrote the open letter and said to the Commission stand where you are and
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:37.720
do not stop the clock it's important that the regulation is going to be implemented as for
00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:44.680
seen and as planned. So and with the European Digital Society the mainly mean European Digital Rights
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:50.280
which is the umbrella organization of digital rights organizations from Europe where we are also
00:19:50.280 --> 00:19:57.240
a member of this organization and others like consumer protections organizations so for example
00:19:57.320 --> 00:20:03.080
Boyk was there and so which is basically the umbrella organization of all consumer protection
00:20:03.080 --> 00:20:07.960
agencies in the member states or this would be for example in Germany and the from power
00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:13.960
central so there are these official consumer protection bodies that have an umbrella organizations
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:19.480
there so even there so which is basically a very an organization also paid by governments
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:26.840
so they also fight here for consumer rights so a large group of 50 organizations
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of civil society organizations coming from the digital but also from the consumer protection
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area came together to counter this letter of the companies and and said look if we need
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:48.360
these rules since we want to protect consumers and so now I do believe that there will be a fight
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over the summer break until August if the commission will stand at its position and will implement
00:20:55.240 --> 00:21:02.040
as for seen or if the companies will be successful with their lobbying and that there will be a stop
00:21:02.040 --> 00:21:09.080
the clock mechanism. Also since we have this deadline with August which is just a few weeks ahead
00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:15.880
of us or I expect to be I expect to see more of these kinds of initiatives more pressure on the
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:21.640
commission and it will be very interesting to see if the commission will stand at its position and
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:27.080
we need to support them right so we need to go there and argue against so that's why it was a very
00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:34.840
good thing from European Digital society as well as consumer protection bodies to to come up with
00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:41.000
this letter and to counter this and to to take this fight and to protect consumers basically
00:21:41.560 --> 00:21:47.240
so that we from August on will have these rules on general will purpose AI being into force.
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.760
You will probably follow this conversation for us right?
00:21:53.640 --> 00:22:01.880
Absolutely and also most likely exactly and it's also most likely that we will come together
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:10.200
around August I guess where we might give a follow-up on this and yeah you dear listeners know
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:16.520
what happened in the end so if the rules on general purpose AI are implemented and or if they
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:24.200
postpone these and also how it's going to be continued with the high-risk AI and also as
00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:30.600
said there are currently discussions on copyright in the European Parliament which will be discussed
00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:37.960
on the 15th of July in the committee. Also here we will see how the debates are going to be
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:45.160
kicked off or ended so depending on how you look at it and then we will cover this yeah
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:51.640
most likely in August and see what happened until then if you should happen to run into decision
00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:58.600
makers working on this let them know that we as civil society want those rules we want
00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:05.160
that the AI act enters into force as for them and as planned there should be no further delay
00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:08.040
so let them know that this is our position and maybe this helps.
00:23:09.560 --> 00:23:14.360
Thank you so much Alex thank you so much for walking us through AI act and about the current
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:22.600
debates here in light of the time I would say we cut a close here any closing remarks from your side
00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:32.200
on this AI act point. Not only AI act but I have a remark on our podcast so since we have a transcript
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:39.400
of the podcast which is generated automatically we were wondering if you are using this if you
00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:46.040
read through this and how you like it and if you see any kind of improvements we could implement
00:23:46.600 --> 00:23:54.920
that are easily to be implement so we don't want to spend 20 hours on a very perfect transcript so
00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:00.360
this is not possible with our resources but if you could have a look at this and let us know if this
00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:06.040
is something which is useful for you or how we can improve it with two or three clicks then we are
00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:12.040
also happy to learn from you and yeah let us know if this is a useful thing with the transcript
00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:20.360
if you use it and if you see any improvements for us. Thank you thank you very much for pointing
00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:27.400
this out and we are happy to welcome your feedback. So Alex thank you so much for your time thank you
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:33.960
so much for being here it was a pleasure as always and yeah thank you. Looking forward to the next
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:41.640
episode. I also have something that I would like to highlight now before the summer pause starts. I
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.640
know we will be back in August but until our next software freedom podcast episode I would like
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:54.600
to point out a podcast to you called Linux InLaws. The Linux InLaws is a podcast hosted by
00:24:54.600 --> 00:25:01.320
Chris and Martin and Martin and Chris they just have a wonderful and easy way to talk about free
00:25:01.320 --> 00:25:06.840
software topics and yeah it's very easy to listen to and to dive into the ramps of the free
00:25:06.840 --> 00:25:14.760
software world in a fun and light way. I'm very happy to point you to the season two episode 40
00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:20.600
which was just recently released it's called flossing education and in this episode Martin
00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:25.640
and Chris talk about free software in the educational sector which I found very enlightening and
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:33.880
very funny and to also point you to a slightly older episode from season one episode 82 where Matthias
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:41.000
Kirschner our president read the book Ada and Zangemann. Yeah if you have some time give them a
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:47.640
listen and come back to our podcast afterwards. Happy to see you around.
00:25:50.600 --> 00:25:55.960
This was the software freedom podcast. If you liked this episode please recommend it to your friends
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and rate it. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations that explored the importance of
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Free Software Foundation Europe. We are a charity that works on promoting software freedom.
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If you like our work please consider supporting us for the nation. You find more information
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under fsfe.org/donate. Bye bye and thank you so much for listening.
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:31.320
Hi I'm Björn Schiessle. I came to the fsfe 13 years ago as a volunteer where I started translating
00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:36.360
the web page and status of volunteers since then. I think fsfe is really important to have
00:26:36.520 --> 00:26:40.680
an independent voice in Europe to talk about free software because it becomes more and more
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:50.760
important in a digital society.
