WEBVTT
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00:00:05.099Hello, hello, hello.
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00:00:08.121And today on the Smooth Brain Society, we're joined by Dr.
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00:00:10.653Kate Slade from Lancaster University.
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00:00:18.457She is a lecturer in research and psychology, and her research explores how hearing loss, aging and cognition intertwine.
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00:00:26.204She's looking at how listening efforts show up, but not just in the brain, but in the body as well, and how these changes connect to wellbeing, mental health.
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00:00:28.166and even health inequalities.
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00:00:31.307But Kate doesn't stop at the lab.
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00:00:40.613She's also a podcast host for Doctors Confess and a science comedian who's taken her research to the stage at the Bright Club and beyond.
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00:00:45.597From hearing loss to punchlines, we have got a lot to explore today.
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00:00:47.417So welcome, Kate.
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00:00:51.829Yeah love with you Beth.
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00:01:00.451uh You are cool, off.
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00:01:05.911you're talking, and you're also talking from your podcast studio.
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00:01:09.430So like you're a professional podcaster.
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00:01:12.266Definitely your personal podcast studio.
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00:01:15.180is my studio.
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00:01:16.882No, thank you so much for having me.
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00:01:21.147I've been hearing a lot about this podcast and obviously I'm a big fan of you both.
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00:01:25.289So I'm very happy to be here in my podcasting studio.
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00:01:30.998and we're very happy to have you in our podcast studios.
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00:01:34.843For those listening online, I'm doing the little bunny ear things.
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00:01:36.405Yeah, we know.
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00:01:38.405Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:01:44.346you book in your university and my living room where I hang my T-shirt on the door.
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00:01:44.855Yeah.
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00:01:48.965I have commandeered my supervisor's office.
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00:01:51.284That is quite serious, that's a big deal.
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00:01:52.185big deal.
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00:01:55.004I'm going say I'm a BNOC around here.
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00:02:02.045For those that maybe are under the age of 25, that means big name on campus.
00:02:02.984 -->
00:02:04.685don't know if that's still going.
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00:02:11.344that's really sad because yeah, am a big BNOC.
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00:02:13.405Anyway, we'll get to the research.
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00:02:19.721So Kate, when people ask you what you research, what you study, how do you...
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00:02:22.587How do you explain that in kind of simple terms?
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00:02:32.572Yeah, I mean, I probably say similar to how you described me in the introduction that I researched the hearing loss that happens as we age.
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00:02:35.211And then I sometimes try and describe it.
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00:02:47.485So like, know, when you play high frequency sounds and younger people can hear them and older people can't hear them, or when you're in like a noisy environment and as you're aging, it's harder and harder to deal with those kinds of environments.
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00:02:52.408And that's the kind of hearing loss that I study.
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00:02:57.932I'm interested in how it affects our brains and how we process our environments.
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00:03:02.687And I'm interested in how it affects our bodies and how we cope with something I call listening efforts.
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00:03:09.123So the increasing demand of listening environments that are difficult to listen in.
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00:03:10.637So yeah.
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00:03:13.209Yeah, very good little explanation there.
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00:03:21.587So as you've just said there, you kind of work at the intersection between hearing, brain, ageing and mental wellbeing.
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00:03:27.164eh How did you kind of come up with those kind of all kind of being combined together?
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00:03:32.848Because it kind of makes sense when you say it like that, but kind of putting this all together, you know, it's lots of different kind of factors.
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00:03:34.513do you my origin story?
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00:03:34.989Go on.
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00:03:36.028please.
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00:03:39.229That is exactly what I was asking for.
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00:03:43.449So, we've got as much time as you need.
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00:03:44.989I'm here for your entire origin story.
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00:03:48.121If we need to sit here for 10 hours, not a problem.
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00:03:51.283not that exciting, so we'll take it long.
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00:03:55.518So I've always loved psychology.
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00:03:59.431I've been always really interested in how people think and behave.
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00:04:02.343And I've always been interested in how the brain works.
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00:04:07.788And I mean, I don't know if any of you did A-level psychology or anything like that.
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00:04:09.079Did either of you?
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00:04:11.140And.
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00:04:18.182Some of the research that I would like, I'm completely fascinated with like the taxi drivers, hippocampus study.
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00:04:23.365My 16, 17 year old brain was just like, this is unbelievable.
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00:04:25.201And I've always loved the topic.
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00:04:35.637So study at university, like the truth, my truth is that I was never, em I never thought I would like go into research or.
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00:04:38.225be a lecturer or work at a university.
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00:04:40.245I thought maybe I would go into teaching.
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00:04:41.584I've always liked teaching.
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00:04:48.384But I discovered a love for research in my third year when I was doing my dissertation.
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00:04:56.444And it was really all thanks to people around me who told me that like, I could do it and you you could go on and do research.
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00:05:01.605And so this is a long way of me saying like, I never thought that I'd be in this space, but now here I am.
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00:05:10.235And in a way, things have just like, come together through maybe like look, em I don't if I should say that.
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00:05:14.326Yeah, look, and maybe also a bit of like work as well.
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00:05:16.189My hard work.
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00:05:20.149you personally are not hard work you have worked hard.
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00:05:22.627I just just say clear that up.
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00:05:30.108uh decided to try for a PhD and I applied.
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00:05:39.052m I'd been doing some research in like, m in my third year about how m children learn to like read and write.
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00:05:41.209And I was kind of interested in that.
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00:05:46.495And I was interested in aphasia and I had like sort of like a languagey kind of interest going on.
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00:05:50.428And I saw this PhD project about listening efforts.
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00:06:00.132m which is the effort that we use when we're listening in noisy situations, typically experienced by people who are older.
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00:06:03.074So just tell me to stop talking if you want me to stop talking.
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00:06:07.255Okay, thanks.
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00:06:09.637So it's like one of the biggest complaints.
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00:06:37.341m for people with what we call age-related hearing loss, so the hearing loss that happens when we get older, that's to communicate in noisy environments, which are typically the social ones, so where you wanna meet friends and hang out and have social, cognitively stimulating experiences, they're the environments that are the most challenging for older adults, and for a of us anyway, but when you have a hearing loss on top of that, it makes those environments even more difficult.
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00:06:47.170So what I was trying to do in my PhD was objectively quantify the experience of listening effort using physiological measures.
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00:07:00.098So like when you invest physical effort in running, for example, which I personally don't do, but I've heard people, I've heard people run and it's hard.
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00:07:03.343So you have a...
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00:07:09.492your autonomic nervous system activates and things change, your heart rate increases, all that kind of stuff.
00:07:09.654 -->
00:07:18.497The same thing can happen when you invest mental efforts, and that's how we see listening efforts, like a mental effort investment of cognitive resources.
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00:07:29.060And we might be able to quantify that using physiological measures, so measures from the heart, so cardiac activity, to see how much effort somebody is investing in a listening environment.
00:07:29.661 -->
00:07:35.466em And if we could do that, we could incorporate that into how like hearing is even measured and tested.
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00:07:43.375You could bring it into hearing aids to adjust people's algorithms to like account for their listening efforts in the real world.
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00:07:45.517m And that's what I was doing.
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00:07:47.279So we used...
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00:08:00.966some measures of cardiac activity and we could see that it responds to how much effort people are putting in in different listening situations based on the difficulty of the situation, but also based on how much people want to listen.
00:08:01.247 -->
00:08:04.389So like the motivation you have to listen to somebody.
00:08:04.389 -->
00:08:10.281So for example, some people might be listening to this thinking, I do not have motivation to listen to Kate going on about this.
00:08:10.281 -->
00:08:11.557I'm gonna tune out.
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00:08:20.461Other people will think I'm the most interesting person ever and have lots of motivation and their nervous system is going to be activated in response to trying to perceive what I'm saying.
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00:08:23.923em So that's what I was doing there.
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00:08:31.466And that really made me think more holistically as well about the experience of hearing loss and difficulties with listening.
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00:08:35.229Because em in my like introductions, I would always write like...
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00:08:40.572it's really about the social aspect, this communication, and that's a really holistic experience.
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00:08:54.409And it intersects with a lot of other m factors that make us human and also let us live like really healthy lives to be able to communicate, to participate in things.
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00:08:56.181It's really important.
00:08:56.280 -->
00:08:59.123And I don't know what the question was, Beth.
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00:09:02.106I answered it.
00:09:02.106 -->
00:09:07.206Are you, yeah, no, like m you gave your origin story about how you got here.
00:09:07.206 -->
00:09:12.451like then you went, but then, and did your PhD then just carry on into kind of doing the same?
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00:09:18.851So yeah, so after I finished my PhD and I'd done, I basically done neck down.
00:09:18.851 -->
00:09:21.904So I've been looking at physiological measures, neck down.
00:09:21.904 -->
00:09:23.775I hadn't really gone neck up.
00:09:23.775 -->
00:09:29.499I mean, the ears are neck up, but I hadn't looked at the brain and I was really interested in doing that.
00:09:29.499 -->
00:09:36.643because I'd been reading about like neuroscientific measures of cognitive effort and attention and all this kind of stuff.
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00:09:39.774And I've been reading about how hearing loss might affect the brain.
00:09:39.774 -->
00:09:41.206And I was super interested in that.
00:09:41.206 -->
00:09:45.857And I saw a postdoc.
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00:09:48.659Should I say thank you to people or am I just being weird now?
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00:09:50.296Thank you everyone who's helped me.
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00:09:51.942That's not weird at all.
00:09:51.942 -->
00:09:53.427You thank them away.
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00:09:56.599Thank you to my PhD supervisor, you were the best.
00:09:56.599 -->
00:09:57.249Shout out Dr.
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00:09:58.461Michael Richter.
00:09:58.504 -->
00:09:59.445Oh, he might.
00:09:59.445 -->
00:10:00.225Oh, he's yeah.
00:10:00.225 -->
00:10:00.565Yeah.
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00:10:02.245He You ever talk about he's lovely.
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00:10:03.053Yeah.
00:10:03.053 -->
00:10:06.417is honestly one of my favorite people ever.
00:10:06.417 -->
00:10:08.479I could not have done anything without him.
00:10:08.479 -->
00:10:11.181He made me believe in myself as a scientist.
00:10:11.181 -->
00:10:17.366And if anybody wants to do a PhD, I recommend him so highly.
00:10:17.366 -->
00:10:18.488What a guy.
00:10:18.793 -->
00:10:20.190I hope he doesn't listen to this.
00:10:20.190 -->
00:10:21.429I'm embarrassed.
00:10:22.731 -->
00:10:23.647Don't email it.
00:10:23.647 -->
00:10:26.311clipped this out, send it straight to him.
00:10:29.605 -->
00:10:32.138Yeah, no, but that's all 100 % true.
00:10:32.138 -->
00:10:34.061It was the best experience.
00:10:34.061 -->
00:10:40.518I know that's not always the case for researchers, but I had the best PhD experience, hands down.
00:10:40.999 -->
00:10:44.734I loved it so much and I learned so, so much.
00:10:44.734 -->
00:10:47.105couldn't, yeah, it was great.
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00:10:48.705So yeah, thanks.
00:10:49.469 -->
00:10:57.398And then I applied for this postdoc at Lancaster that I saw that was all, it was like all about the neurobiology of age-related hearing loss.
00:10:57.398 -->
00:11:01.381And I was like, oh my God, I want this so badly.
00:11:01.381 -->
00:11:05.046just, I was desperate, like desperate to get this position.
00:11:05.046 -->
00:11:08.509m And the principal investigator was Dr.
00:11:08.509 -->
00:11:11.205Helen Nuttall, who is...
00:11:11.205 -->
00:11:16.655I think I've just had the best experiences in my life because she is also an unbelievable person.
00:11:16.655 -->
00:11:21.071I'm just like, this is what I mean about the luck of the people I've managed to work with.
00:11:21.071 -->
00:11:31.789I think we just need to say like you're a lovely person, you're lovely people and I just think you know when lovely people meet each other they're like lovely smart people meet each other like this is just gonna work, this is gonna work beautifully.
00:11:31.789 -->
00:11:37.643they give me so much energy and like, yeah, I couldn't have asked for any better experiences.
00:11:37.643 -->
00:11:43.537And she is an amazing, like scientist, amazing person, amazing mentor.
00:11:43.616 -->
00:11:44.557Yeah.
00:11:45.577 -->
00:11:46.688Amazing podcast co-host.
00:11:46.688 -->
00:11:48.759We co-host the podcast together.
00:11:48.759 -->
00:11:51.902She's now like one of my best friends.
00:11:52.322 -->
00:11:54.394Well, what's that saying?
00:11:54.394 -->
00:11:56.769Like you're definitely my best friend.
00:11:58.458 -->
00:11:59.048What was that?
00:11:59.048 -->
00:12:03.432I was like, I'm, I'm, you're my, I'm not your best friend, you're my best friend.
00:12:03.432 -->
00:12:08.275Yeah, she's my best friend.
00:12:08.436 -->
00:12:14.159So yeah, the project was all about understanding the neurobiology of age-related hearing loss.
00:12:14.159 -->
00:12:25.667using neuroscientific methods m like electroentephyllography, so that's EEG when we put little sensors on the scalp and we measure the electrical activity in the brain from the neurons, which is how the brain communicates.
00:12:25.667 -->
00:12:29.541You've probably done all this already that your listeners know this kind of information.
00:12:29.541 -->
00:12:40.126because we've got people from all, people who've know nothing about science, there might be some PIs, there people who've just not done EEG before, so please, we like these explanations.
00:12:40.126 -->
00:12:49.572So yeah, they're little sensors, a little stick on the head or attach the head through a very attractive swimming cap and they measure the activity in the brain.
00:12:50.114 -->
00:12:57.779And the post also advertised that it would involve transcranial magnetic stimulation, TMS.
00:12:57.779 -->
00:13:04.251m which is a technique that you can use to stimulate the brain.
00:13:04.251 -->
00:13:08.096And it works through electromagnetic induction.
00:13:08.417 -->
00:13:13.644you put like a paddle kind of looking thing em on someone's head.
00:13:13.644 -->
00:13:17.447It kind of looks like a, you could use it for like table tennis maybe.
00:13:18.096 -->
00:13:19.807slightly smaller but yeah.
00:13:19.869 -->
00:13:22.269Yeah, table tennis kind of racket.
00:13:23.048 -->
00:13:24.749Brand you own with.
00:13:25.849 -->
00:13:27.609Yeah, something like that.
00:13:27.609 -->
00:13:30.989And you put that on to the head.
00:13:30.989 -->
00:13:36.708And it's a button and it delivers a magnetic pulse, which creates a magnetic field.
00:13:36.708 -->
00:13:39.788then through like, physics process.
00:13:40.221 -->
00:13:45.684m that creates an electric current in the brain that can actually activate the brain's neurons.
00:13:45.684 -->
00:13:51.830m And I had heard about the technique, but obviously I'd never done anything with it.
00:13:51.830 -->
00:14:07.269And I remember the first time I went into Helen's lab and she showed me how it worked and that you could stimulate the motor cortex and then see somebody's arm move because of the stimulation you delivered.
00:14:07.269 -->
00:14:08.259and it had activated the neurons.
00:14:08.259 -->
00:14:10.721was like, this is, this is sci-fi.
00:14:10.721 -->
00:14:11.964This is amazing.
00:14:11.964 -->
00:14:15.306can't, uh I've hit the lottery with this project.
00:14:15.306 -->
00:14:17.698was so fascinated by it.
00:14:18.179 -->
00:14:27.441And what's really cool is that it means you can sort of do like cause and effect research so you can, m know, what's the word, excite.
00:14:27.441 -->
00:14:37.539brain areas or sort of disrupt them and measure the effects of that on behaviour or on other neuroscientific outcomes like EEG, so the activity in the brain.
00:14:38.421 -->
00:14:46.403So it used loads of all of these different methods to try and understand about how the brain might change after you have age-related hearing loss.
00:14:46.403 -->
00:15:11.140So we know that hearing loss affects the ear, but obviously that means that less information goes to your brain and that might have consequences, whether that's because your brain kind of reorganizes itself or maybe there's like disuse of certain areas or upregulation of areas to try and cope with the demands of the new situation that you've got from the reduced like sensory input, if that makes sense.
00:15:11.783 -->
00:15:13.725Yeah.
00:15:13.725 -->
00:15:14.787So yeah, it was all about that.
00:15:14.787 -->
00:15:16.308And then COVID happened.
00:15:18.494 -->
00:15:23.541things didn't pan out quite as they had expected.
00:15:24.028 -->
00:15:29.089which meant I explored some different kind of research questions.
00:15:29.089 -->
00:15:38.808For example, about how being isolated during the COVID pandemic might affect your hearing and your cognitive function in older and younger adults.
00:15:38.808 -->
00:15:55.024And again, I think all of these experiences kind of added to my thoughts around this area as being like very holistic, its brain, its body, its mental health, its wellbeing, its loneliness, its isolation and the ability to hear sex with everything.
00:15:55.024 -->
00:16:03.769em So I think that all these experiences really, really added to my, to how much I love the topic.
00:16:03.769 -->
00:16:11.456m And we did some work around like health inequalities, which is something I'm like getting, I'm really interested in.
00:16:11.456 -->
00:16:12.677It's not like my...
00:16:12.910 -->
00:16:17.111area of expertise per se, but I'm really fascinated by it it's really important.
00:16:17.111 -->
00:16:24.403There's like a massive effect of, well I say massive effect, but that's like a scientific term, so ignore that.
00:16:24.403 -->
00:16:31.206There's an effect of health inequality and inequalities on hearing outcomes.
00:16:31.586 -->
00:16:38.408There's even like a North-South divide, I believe, where people in the North of the UK are more likely to experience hearing loss than those in the South.
00:16:38.888 -->
00:16:40.599So yeah, that's the thing.
00:16:40.599 -->
00:16:42.609So yeah.
00:16:43.974 -->
00:16:44.313Yeah.
00:16:44.313 -->
00:16:45.493incredible.
00:16:45.642 -->
00:16:46.783all makes sense.
00:16:46.783 -->
00:16:56.134I think the biggest thing is what you're basically saying is that there's not just one thing that is a driving cause of hearing loss or dementia.
00:16:56.134 -->
00:16:58.566There's lots of these things kind of intersect with each other.
00:16:58.566 -->
00:17:03.280So, oh one thing when there's so many things affecting hearing loss.
00:17:03.280 -->
00:17:30.567Yeah, and this is why like collaborative research and like, I love like talking to people from different disciplines or different areas and it makes you learn something that you're so, you can get so bogged down in the details like when you're doing your PhD or even when you're doing a postdoc, which is kind of like PhD extended, I guess, that you get so focused on like really detailed specifics and you can lose sight of like the real, the bigger kind of things, I guess.
00:17:30.567 -->
00:17:31.903Yeah, no massively.
00:17:31.903 -->
00:17:32.664Yeah.
00:17:32.934 -->
00:17:37.047oh You also speak about so many different aspects, which you've been a part of, right?
00:17:37.047 -->
00:17:43.538Like you said, neck down, neck up, and then the sort of holistic eh experiences as well.
00:17:45.519 -->
00:17:51.573But uh so I want to start with the more like the COVID-19 and hearing loss one.
00:17:51.573 -->
00:17:54.663I think that's more public health related.
00:17:54.663 -->
00:18:03.106I did not think that that was even a thing that you could potentially have sort of hearing loss effects with regards to like isolation and COVID.
00:18:03.159 -->
00:18:08.193I mean COVID-19, like due to isolation and things, could you unpack that a little bit more first?
00:18:08.193 -->
00:18:11.227And then maybe we can talk about like what happens inside next.
00:18:12.113 -->
00:18:23.036Yeah, I can definitely try and probably, I mean, you two probably have a lot more insights actually into like, well, maybe you do, like the effects of like deprivation on like development and that kind of thing.
00:18:23.036 -->
00:18:37.140em I get what she might be able to say some things that I don't know about, but yeah, the idea of the project was really to understand if changes to like communication would affect cognitive outcomes.
00:18:37.140 -->
00:18:48.060So when I mean that, mean like, memory and thinking tests that we run at the typically in psychology or in other disciplines to assess parts of cognitive function.
00:18:48.060 -->
00:18:56.429And so that's like, you know, memory, and being able to hold information in your brain and manipulate it, and decision making, all that kind of stuff.
00:18:56.484 -->
00:19:00.298Also, whether that isolation might affect hearing outcomes.
00:19:00.298 -->
00:19:15.701So if there are changes in how we're hearing information, so whether that's because, I mean, for example, I put my hand over my mouth, you have less sensory information and maybe you find it harder to distinguish some of the words that I'm saying.
00:19:15.701 -->
00:19:18.143That's probably ruined the mic thing.
00:19:18.544 -->
00:19:25.358But when I remove my hand, you use the visuals from lip reading to sort of put the information together.
00:19:25.358 -->
00:19:32.092Obviously in COVID we all wore face masks, which muffled the sound, made it hard to see people's mouths.
00:19:32.132 -->
00:19:36.314And as well as that, we moved to like more online communication.
00:19:36.314 -->
00:19:37.574We were in our houses.
00:19:37.574 -->
00:19:46.357weren't, it was just completely an unprecedented situation for that kind of thing.
00:19:46.357 -->
00:19:55.859And there's some evidence that when you sort of disrupt the processing, so like maybe you occlude hearing, it can affect how it can affect the brain.
00:19:55.859 -->
00:19:58.593So you get changes in the brain because of that.
00:19:58.593 -->
00:20:07.262m And I was wondering if that would happen during the pandemic when people's communication was completely disrupted.
00:20:07.262 -->
00:20:10.905um What did I find in that study?
00:20:11.969 -->
00:20:14.861I don't think I found what I expected.
00:20:14.861 -->
00:20:17.252I'll have to go back over the abstract.
00:20:21.734 -->
00:20:23.517a...
00:20:23.517 -->
00:20:27.557always fully remember the output of it that's okay.
00:20:28.030 -->
00:20:38.817think that it was quite a positive story m in the end that they didn't have these impacts that I expected it would and I guess that could be due to the methods that I had used.
00:20:38.978 -->
00:20:49.275But yeah, maybe, I don't know if you know about, you can shed some light on this deprivation or the effects of deprivation on how the brain processes information.
00:20:50.057 -->
00:20:50.676I've got a quick question.
00:20:50.676 -->
00:20:55.977What part of the brain is it that we're listening is, yes?
00:20:57.797 -->
00:21:25.048No, no, no, no, Sorry I was trying to think of another study Where covid 19 they found some Loss to the temporal area no, Is it because of the fact that yes, we've all been maybe isolated a bit?
00:21:25.048 -->
00:21:30.628Is it the fact that also, you know, we lose our smell, like COVID as well?
00:21:30.628 -->
00:21:34.449So there was this scare of like, oh my God, COVID is causing our brains to shrink.
00:21:34.449 -->
00:21:45.489it's like, it's probably more, as you said, not like long-term deprivation, but you know, that kind of like, know, three to four times we're our smell, you know, we've got an osmium, which is where you can't smell due to COVID.
00:21:45.853 -->
00:21:50.105Was it the fact that we just weren't interacting as much, you using our senses as much?
00:21:50.105 -->
00:21:52.008That's a bit out there, that comment.
00:21:52.008 -->
00:21:53.558So don't take too much away from that.
00:21:53.558 -->
00:21:55.259More just like a speculation.
00:21:55.259 -->
00:21:55.900I'm sorry.
00:21:55.900 -->
00:21:59.063em I think it was eh Dr.
00:21:59.063 -->
00:21:59.452Douad.
00:21:59.452 -->
00:22:04.416So please, if you're listening to this, please don't get angry at me about that interpretation.
00:22:04.416 -->
00:22:05.373Yeah.
00:22:05.373 -->
00:22:06.564It's just speculation, is it?
00:22:06.564 -->
00:22:12.779So we can say the things that might be happening and we don't know if they are or not because there's not enough evidence yet.
00:22:14.662 -->
00:22:15.173Lose it.
00:22:15.173 -->
00:22:16.943That's one of the hypotheses, isn't it?
00:22:16.943 -->
00:22:17.638Yeah.
00:22:17.638 -->
00:22:17.979yep.
00:22:17.979 -->
00:22:23.328And is that a big thing about the kind of, you know, the hearing and the deprivation to do with that?
00:22:23.328 -->
00:22:28.326But maybe more long term deprivations here might know, might have some other comments on it.
00:22:28.638 -->
00:22:33.019I mean, I mean, not because I can't think of a study off the top of my head.
00:22:33.019 -->
00:22:41.532I'm not going to say more than that, but, uh, but your, but the, the things that you suggest are basically true, which is what you see, right?
00:22:41.532 -->
00:22:53.695I mean, I mean, the basic, the basic simple example, which you can say is if you don't work out, then your muscles sort of like lose their strength, they atrophies the same thing sort of happens with the brain.
00:22:53.695 -->
00:22:58.097If it's deprived of, of functioning of those sort of things.
00:22:58.097 -->
00:23:08.271And I guess it makes sense if you're not listening as much, you're not experiencing as many sounds, uh sort of that would sort of atrophy a little bit.
00:23:08.292 -->
00:23:09.193Very plastic.
00:23:09.193 -->
00:23:09.787Yeah.
00:23:09.787 -->
00:23:10.247Yeah.
00:23:10.247 -->
00:23:13.538So, I mean, this isn't necessarily a negative story actually.
00:23:13.538 -->
00:23:21.301It can be quite positive because the brain copes and reorganizes and new connections form and all that kind of stuff, which is fantastic.
00:23:21.301 -->
00:23:24.413Yeah, go on.
00:23:24.611 -->
00:23:50.237very quickly I was just gonna say it's like and similar to what you're talking about Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease which I research is like you can have cognitive and motor reserve from you know maybe if you exercise a lot if you you know read a lot if you're social you know even when you get kind of like build up of those plaques which you know m you know TAU plaques which is basically these little proteins that kind of stick onto your brain and what they think is the main driver of Alzheimer's disease.
00:23:50.237 -->
00:23:59.791But if you've got kind of, you know, other areas where, you know, you've been being more social as a person, it's exactly resilience, then, you know, you're less likely to get these things.
00:23:59.791 -->
00:24:07.114So if you start to lose some of those senses, is it you're reducing that reserve and kind of it's making you more susceptible, I guess, to...
00:24:07.114 -->
00:24:14.405it's like the ability to be able to engage in these reserve building activities, I guess, which is, yeah, really important.
00:24:14.405 -->
00:24:48.115And we also looked at some like mental health, like predictors like looking at depression and things because there's links between, you know, m experiencing these kinds of changes to our senses as we age and mental health factors because we then have to cope with, you know, all this new stuff that's happening to us and maybe not being able to go out and socialize as easily as we were able to because of the stigma around having hearing loss or asking people to repeat themselves or because these environments are just not built to help people with hearing loss because they're just too noisy and there's not good, like, guess, acoustics.
00:24:48.115 -->
00:24:49.278So yeah.
00:24:49.278 -->
00:24:53.422uh so many different aspects.
00:24:53.781 -->
00:24:54.883Many, many things.
00:24:54.883 -->
00:25:05.979em I guess just a quick question I was going to say is like is there a myth or misunderstanding you think people often have about hearing loss and the brain or factors you've chastened about?
00:25:06.621 -->
00:25:35.684guess something that's that's that's a current conversation at the moment is that there's a link between hearing loss as we age and cognitive decline and that has been demonstrated in what's the word epidemiological studies and that have looked at like risk factors for dementia, risk factors for cognitive decline.
00:25:35.684 -->
00:25:44.085I don't know if you've seen, you probably have like the Lancet article about all the lifestyle modifiable risk factors for dementia and cognitive decline.
00:25:44.865 -->
00:25:56.125And that paper suggests that if hearing loss is a risk factor for dementia, and that all hearing loss was eliminated.
00:25:56.125 -->
00:26:01.684And I might be saying this incorrectly, I'm not an epidemiologist, so don't quote me exactly on this.
00:26:02.305 -->
00:26:10.744Is that 8 % of dementia cases could be reduced or removed, but this is based on like population level data.
00:26:10.744 -->
00:26:12.224It's not individual risk.
00:26:12.224 -->
00:26:15.924And also we don't know if the link between hearing loss and dementia is causal.
00:26:16.505 -->
00:26:20.105There's a hypothesis that it may be, but it also may not be.
00:26:20.105 -->
00:26:26.307They may just both exist due to some underlying m factor that we don't know yet.
00:26:26.768 -->
00:26:36.777But there is a danger of overstating this link when we don't truly know what it is.
00:26:36.777 -->
00:26:44.263And it can be very scary to hear that hearing loss might lead to cognitive decline.
00:26:44.263 -->
00:26:45.955And actually, we don't know if that's the case.
00:26:45.955 -->
00:26:49.969There's not enough evidence yet to tell us whether that is happening or not.
00:26:50.076 -->
00:26:53.820m And I think it's very important for people to know that.
00:26:53.820 -->
00:27:05.094So just because you have hearing loss doesn't mean it's going to have any negative impact on neurodegenerative disease, if that makes sense.
00:27:05.094 -->
00:27:08.959And I think it's just this care that we need to take about that message.
00:27:08.959 -->
00:27:09.759And I've been...
00:27:09.759 -->
00:27:22.876m This has really developed my thinking, thanks to some other amazing researchers who are also working in this area about how we communicate these kinds of messages, especially to the public.
00:27:22.876 -->
00:27:27.530And as you both know, I like to talk to the public sometimes.
00:27:27.530 -->
00:27:32.914So I wanna make sure that I'm not saying things that are incorrect or not evidence-based.
00:27:32.914 -->
00:27:38.900And that's one thing that's maybe like, I don't know if it's a misconception, but just like an interesting kind of...
00:27:38.900 -->
00:27:41.630em message at the moment.
00:27:41.630 -->
00:27:43.686I don't know I'm describing this very well.
00:27:43.686 -->
00:27:45.186No, I get it.
00:27:45.186 -->
00:27:55.866think it's very important because I guess epidemiological studies are pretty good at showing associations, but the association doesn't necessarily need to mean anything.
00:27:55.866 -->
00:27:59.126The very famous correlation is in causation.
00:27:59.346 -->
00:28:14.126because what's in dementia or in your degenerative disorders, your brain or like a certain brain region is potentially atrophying and that brain region might be related to hearing and therefore you are seeing hearing loss but it doesn't mean that hearing loss causes it.
00:28:14.126 -->
00:28:20.568It could be a symptom but hearing loss is caused from many other things I am assuming as well, not just that.
00:28:20.568 -->
00:28:25.701oh, toxicity drugs, they can damage the hair cells in your air lifestyle exposure to noise.
00:28:25.701 -->
00:28:30.288uh just as you get older, I guess as well, like that's naturally gonna, yeah.
00:28:31.169 -->
00:28:48.643Well, when I say that, I mean, you're more, from the corner you said, you're more, you're going to possibly probably hear from a lifetime more loud sounds, know, you're gonna slowly destroy that kind of, is it the bottom or top of the cochlear that goes first with, Oh, god, on them.
00:28:50.426 -->
00:28:51.367Yes.
00:28:51.890 -->
00:28:52.705Yeah.
00:28:52.705 -->
00:28:58.070area and the cut clear is tonotopically organized so that like, yeah, yeah.
00:28:58.070 -->
00:29:00.171little, like a little conch.
00:29:01.573 -->
00:29:07.376that's why people, as we get older, we can't hear those higher pitch frequencies first.
00:29:07.376 -->
00:29:17.250m hair cells atrophy and once they have atrophied they do not, they don't regenerate in humans.
00:29:18.298 -->
00:29:19.127Yeah.
00:29:19.367 -->
00:29:26.010I say these things because my, when I was in my undergrad, the, my personal tutor was like a big hearing guy.
00:29:26.010 -->
00:29:28.392m His name was Dave Finesse.
00:29:28.392 -->
00:29:29.303He was very lovely.
00:29:29.303 -->
00:29:30.522He was a great personal tutor.
00:29:30.522 -->
00:29:33.713So we had, we had a whole module on hearing and it was great.
00:29:33.835 -->
00:29:34.221Yeah.
00:29:34.221 -->
00:29:35.295It was very enjoyable.
00:29:35.295 -->
00:29:42.597And I guess the question I have like in terms of, m won't name any businesses or name any names because I appreciate that would be slanderous.
00:29:42.597 -->
00:30:00.838m But I've seen maybe some adverts where people are taking advantage of the fact that this has kind of come out a little bit without strong evidence being like, really important that you come get some hearing tests booked in for the price of £399.99.
00:30:00.838 -->
00:30:03.038Well, you're really right, Beth.
00:30:03.078 -->
00:30:17.378that's, yeah, I've seen that too, maybe from suppliers of, of, you know, hearing aids and things like that to say, you know, that there's this link, it's important that you, you get a hearing aid if you have hearing loss.
00:30:17.378 -->
00:30:24.798And the evidence that a hearing aid would offset this possible cause is also not, there's not enough evidence to tell us that yet either.
00:30:24.798 -->
00:30:27.538And we need more research in the area.
00:30:28.699 -->
00:30:29.539But you're right.
00:30:29.539 -->
00:30:32.842it is really important that people go get their hearing checked.
00:30:32.961 -->
00:30:39.136But the driving message, I guess, shouldn't be that that's to prevent dementia.
00:30:39.136 -->
00:30:44.871It's more because hearing is important because it helps you thrive in life.
00:30:45.432 -->
00:30:50.296And it might be helpful to get some help with that.
00:30:50.936 -->
00:30:54.528So yeah, you're completely right.
00:30:54.724 -->
00:31:01.780Yeah, anyway, just like a little bit of a controversial social take in there.
00:31:01.780 -->
00:31:07.188when you emailed me about this podcast, you asked me for something that was like, what did you say?
00:31:07.519 -->
00:31:08.849can't remember.
00:31:10.012 -->
00:31:11.213Oh, sorry.
00:31:11.589 -->
00:31:12.279Don't worry.
00:31:12.279 -->
00:31:14.451It's a good reminder.
00:31:16.490 -->
00:31:33.476We're kind of touching on brain regions and you said you did TMS or you were going to do, I don't know how much TMS you actually got to do before that project got stopped, but I'm kind of interested in knowing what you were planning to do with the TMS in terms of hearing.
00:31:33.476 -->
00:31:41.030Because even the example you gave was, ah somebody's motor cortex was hit and they moved their arm, but that's not necessarily hearing.
00:31:41.030 -->
00:31:44.357So I kind of want to know what you guys were up to.
00:31:44.699 -->
00:31:47.310Yeah, so very good question.
00:31:47.310 -->
00:31:54.454So I will say that this is all based on a project that Helen got funded through the BBSRC, which is a research council.
00:31:54.454 -->
00:32:03.950yeah, the neurobiology of aging was sorry, age-related hearing loss, m was her.
00:32:06.919 -->
00:32:15.582m that she got funded and she was hoping to, we had some various projects in there that we were hoping to look at.
00:32:15.582 -->
00:32:26.166So the one thing that we are currently working on, so we've come back to some of this work now, now that we can get back into the lab m and we've just, we've completed some.
00:32:26.166 -->
00:32:42.886m we've completed some research on one of these areas, is looking to look at whether TMS can entrain certain oscillations in the brain that may be helpful for the cognitive processes that are involved with like hearing or listening to speech and noise.
00:32:42.886 -->
00:32:53.279So when I say like oscillations in the brain, m there are certain patterns of brain activity that occur and these can be banded into different frequency bands.
00:32:53.279 -->
00:32:55.500I know you know this.
00:32:56.186 -->
00:32:58.479Anyway, they can be banded into different frequency bands.
00:32:58.479 -->
00:33:06.673So you have like m alpha oscillations, beta oscillations, and these all are suggested to correspond to different m processes.
00:33:06.994 -->
00:33:13.359Alpha oscillations are m supposed to correspond to things like attending.
00:33:13.359 -->
00:33:23.507So when you attend to information or when you are inhibiting information, the activity m of these oscillations becomes more or less pronounced.
00:33:24.090 -->
00:33:34.124But uh a very exciting thing that you can do with TMS is that you can deliver TMS at a specific frequency to entrain these oscillations.
00:33:34.124 -->
00:33:37.075So you can give them like a little bit of a boost.
00:33:37.075 -->
00:33:52.326So you could increase, I guess, increase might not be quite the right word, but increase the level of alpha oscillatory activity in the brain and then look at what effect that might have on somebody's performance.
00:33:52.326 -->
00:34:02.307on a speech and noise task, for example, that requires, you know, lot of attention and inhibition of noise that you don't want to listen to and attending to the information that you do want to listen to.
00:34:02.846 -->
00:34:03.666So that's one thing.
00:34:03.666 -->
00:34:09.126And I think what I also mentioned before is that you can excite and disrupt brain areas.
00:34:09.126 -->
00:34:20.067So you can see about how, you know, the excitation of one specific brain area might have a benefit or the disruption of a certain brain area might have a...
00:34:20.067 -->
00:34:21.387unbenefit?
00:34:21.387 -->
00:34:22.027Bad?
00:34:22.150 -->
00:34:25.311be bad, be unhelpful.
00:34:25.911 -->
00:34:35.751Yeah, we were interested in that and looking at how stimulating maybe the auditory cortex could help people with these kinds of like, you know, listening kind of tasks.
00:34:36.110 -->
00:34:39.231So yeah, the work we're doing is still ongoing.
00:34:39.231 -->
00:34:45.891And we have, you know, current ideas about where to take that in the future.
00:34:45.891 -->
00:34:51.172And Helen's got some really exciting projects going on about how it might change how you...
00:34:51.172 -->
00:34:53.505adapt to like hearing aids and things like that.
00:34:53.505 -->
00:34:56.039But I think she's going to come on the podcast, right?
00:34:56.039 -->
00:35:02.949So I don't want to let her talk about that because yeah, she's doing some really fascinating stuff in that area.
00:35:06.079 -->
00:35:10.902So basically it's like to help with hearing aids and how people kind of like almost take to them.
00:35:12.338 -->
00:35:14.463And that's so important.
00:35:17.206 -->
00:35:19.186Okay, we'll hold off that.
00:35:19.186 -->
00:35:25.860Okay, well, I'll ask a little bit more general to get us onto another kind of topic.
00:35:25.860 -->
00:35:34.215So in what ways do you think social, economic or psychological factors play into like the hearing and kind of brain?
00:35:34.255 -->
00:35:39.458I know you touched on health inequalities a little bit, so maybe we're going to get more of that.
00:35:39.501 -->
00:35:42.112Yes, this is like really interesting.
00:35:42.112 -->
00:35:49.539So I went to a like a mini conference day and there was a person there called Dr.
00:35:49.539 -->
00:35:52.422Dahlia Sinfonada and I think she's currently at nothing.
00:35:52.422 -->
00:35:53.853not gonna be wrong.
00:35:53.853 -->
00:35:55.114Newcastle?
00:35:55.114 -->
00:35:57.356I remember the city's beginning with N.
00:35:57.556 -->
00:36:00.018But she presented this.
00:36:00.018 -->
00:36:02.780m research that she had been doing.
00:36:02.780 -->
00:36:17.085I think it was using data from the biobank, which is like a big online m data set with human data collected uh about various different things, one being hearing and socioeconomic factors.
00:36:17.085 -->
00:36:25.958So when we say socioeconomic factors, we mean the factors that relate to our sort of socioeconomic position or status.
00:36:25.958 -->
00:36:34.596So m where we live, income, education, m all those types of things intersect with basically health inequality.
00:36:34.596 -->
00:36:53.414So yeah, there's evidence that higher m socioeconomic status or like longer in education, greater income, living in more affluent areas, I guess.
00:36:53.414 -->
00:37:04.101I might be using the wrong terms here, are all related to better hearing outcomes, whereas lower socioeconomic status is related to poorer hearing outcomes.
00:37:04.101 -->
00:37:08.755And that might be for various different reasons that are very complicated.
00:37:08.755 -->
00:37:28.313As we know, research that we do with humans often includes or is biased towards a certain type of participant like the the weird population which stands for wealthy, educated, Industrialized?
00:37:28.313 -->
00:37:29.965Yeah, I was industrialized.
00:37:31.226 -->
00:37:32.894Ah is...
00:37:36.686 -->
00:37:37.849really posh.
00:37:37.932 -->
00:37:39.079Really fun.
00:37:40.487 -->
00:37:44.126Posh, D, dead posh.
00:37:44.847 -->
00:37:47.380So yeah, we.
00:37:47.380 -->
00:37:52.833R is for rich, not really posh and democratic.
00:37:52.833 -->
00:37:54.985So W is Western.
00:37:55.606 -->
00:37:56.585Yeah.
00:37:57.947 -->
00:37:59.867Well, they saw R is R.
00:37:59.867 -->
00:38:00.469Yeah.
00:38:00.469 -->
00:38:01.528Yeah.
00:38:02.117 -->
00:38:08.599And so yeah, that's the they're the participants that typically that are overrepresented in research, basically.
00:38:08.599 -->
00:38:16.621So we might not have a full understanding actually of how all of these things are interested in affect people who are not that population.
00:38:16.621 -->
00:38:19.952m Which is important.
00:38:19.952 -->
00:38:35.976So yeah, one of my PhD students that I supervise, is co-supervised with Helen, is doing some really interesting research at the moment into health inequalities and lifestyle factors and socioeconomic status and how they relate to hearing outcomes.
00:38:35.976 -->
00:38:38.849So m yeah, it's really important.
00:38:38.849 -->
00:38:41.271And actually we don't know the mechanisms so well.
00:38:41.271 -->
00:38:42.943There could be various ones.
00:38:42.943 -->
00:38:48.027It may just be that, know, these kinds of...
00:38:48.860 -->
00:38:59.581create an environment in which certain people are not able to prioritize their hearing health because of complete inequality, um which is very shocking really.
00:39:01.007 -->
00:39:06.990I mean, like you said, multiple factors, the area, the affluent area of what's it called?
00:39:06.990 -->
00:39:08.771The indices of social deprivation.
00:39:08.771 -->
00:39:10.222Isn't that the term?
00:39:10.222 -->
00:39:26.532That's the term for it, which is basically like based on what your postcode is, if you have hospitals or schools nearby, a police station nearby, blah, Noise pollution there is, And I mean, that makes sense, right?
00:39:26.532 -->
00:39:27.592Probably.
00:39:27.885 -->
00:39:36.184If you're in that area you're exposed to louder noises, harsher noises, can't get, you don't have access to amenities to take care of yourself as well.
00:39:36.422 -->
00:39:39.722Yeah, you might not have the best access to healthcare.
00:39:39.722 -->
00:39:42.862That's not prioritized in that way for some reason.
00:39:43.503 -->
00:39:51.782You may be more likely to be exposed to noise through your occupation, all that kind of stuff, yeah.
00:39:52.369 -->
00:39:52.929Yeah, good point.
00:39:52.929 -->
00:39:57.282Yeah, because it's like, from what you're saying, it's like, there's just so many different factors that kind of cause it.
00:39:57.282 -->
00:40:02.916Is there seem to be one leading factor or is it still like, the research still ongoing for your PhD student?
00:40:03.181 -->
00:40:05.112Yeah, she'll find it out.
00:40:05.713 -->
00:40:07.253Come, get her on.
00:40:08.114 -->
00:40:11.876I think, yeah, I think there's been some evidence for various things.
00:40:11.876 -->
00:40:14.278So a lot of time people collapse.
00:40:14.438 -->
00:40:18.570So like they put a lot of different things into like an overarching socioeconomic status.
00:40:18.570 -->
00:40:27.402So that might be made up of numerous different things that are then sort of Zed scored and like averred out into this factor called socioeconomic status.
00:40:27.402 -->
00:40:42.226Sometimes it's just postcode, but sometimes it also includes education or like even smoking and things like that, em which are all more prevalent in certain groups, I guess.
00:40:43.333 -->
00:40:44.726because of inequality.
00:40:45.313 -->
00:40:51.190Is there any evidence that something like substance use or smoking has any direct effect on hearing loss?
00:40:51.190 -->
00:40:53.063it more just indirect that?
00:40:53.702 -->
00:41:00.324m I think, and I'll say thinking here, is that smoking it may be ototoxic.
00:41:00.324 -->
00:41:06.097So when I say ototoxic, like toxic to the hair cells in the air, m and that might be the link.
00:41:06.097 -->
00:41:08.327Same with certain drugs and things like that.
00:41:08.327 -->
00:41:12.268They can affect those hair cells and are toxic to them.
00:41:12.349 -->
00:41:19.090I'd have to double check whether that's, and I think that is one of the possible mechanisms by which that happens.
00:41:19.090 -->
00:41:31.664m Yeah, there's also some interesting stuff about like cardiovascular health and hearing health, like inflammation and the ability of like blood flow to the cochlear and all that kind of stuff, which is quite interesting.
00:41:32.376 -->
00:41:34.730yeah, she's doing some work in that area.
00:41:34.730 -->
00:41:37.121She'd be better to you about it.
00:41:37.990 -->
00:41:46.175Yeah, so like there's kind of, and I think we've touched on quite a few topics now, so I'm going to ask my favourite question to ask.
00:41:46.317 -->
00:41:59.905So I want us to pretend in today's world that you have been given unlimited funding, let's say, know, 20 to 30 million, you know, whatever you want, you can do whatever you want.
00:41:59.905 -->
00:42:06.449The ethics boards are all on holiday for, you know, two weeks, so you've been given free range, what are ethics anymore?
00:42:06.449 -->
00:42:10.750m I know, like I could see your face, wow.
00:42:10.750 -->
00:42:16.762What would be your like dream experiment to run from, know, yeah, now?
00:42:17.585 -->
00:42:19.693Wow, all the money in the world.
00:42:19.693 -->
00:42:22.307No ethics.
00:42:22.307 -->
00:42:23.608No ethics.
00:42:23.791 -->
00:42:28.217This is what everyone will listen to, not the others, but we never happen.
00:42:28.378 -->
00:42:32.262But we just like to, know, blue sky thinking, that's this.
00:42:33.592 -->
00:42:35.403This is such a good question.
00:42:35.403 -->
00:42:37.215It is so hard.
00:42:37.215 -->
00:42:41.398Like my brain immediately goes to something very weird.
00:42:41.398 -->
00:42:46.961Like a research city.
00:42:47.903 -->
00:42:57.309Like a fully immersive, like, yeah, people are trying to like move out of the lab now, like use some more real world measures and stuff like that.
00:42:57.742 -->
00:43:18.851my research world, research city, you go to a city the size of Manchester and it's just a massive research lab where everyone's connected to all different kinds of devices and measurements are being taken and you go into different environments, shops or whatever.
00:43:18.851 -->
00:43:22.516It's just a whole city and it's research town.
00:43:22.516 -->
00:43:25.210But then I'm like, that is very dystopian.
00:43:25.210 -->
00:43:31.893I was about to say, I was about to say, isn't that basically what Elon Musk's Neuralink brain chip would do?
00:43:33.204 -->
00:43:35.409I don't want to be associated with that.
00:43:35.842 -->
00:43:39.353Kate's really got some great ideas for a research city.
00:43:39.353 -->
00:43:40.856She's at Lancaster University.
00:43:40.856 -->
00:43:41.827Hit her up.
00:43:42.215 -->
00:43:47.048Yeah, let me know Elon what you want to we can partner up maybe you could.
00:43:47.501 -->
00:43:50.226He could chuck you a couple billion, he's got a few.
00:43:50.597 -->
00:43:54.264Yeah, just one, one measly billion.
00:43:54.699 -->
00:43:55.204could do it.
00:43:55.204 -->
00:43:56.668Yeah, sure.
00:43:57.157 -->
00:44:04.253So maybe that's a bit farfetched and also, but you said no ethics, so, and that's perfect for me and Elon and our partnership.
00:44:04.253 -->
00:44:04.623there.
00:44:04.623 -->
00:44:07.505Yeah, and you can test, you know, the different health inequalities.
00:44:07.505 -->
00:44:10.507You know, could have like a North-South divide within this city.
00:44:10.507 -->
00:44:17.460Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:17.460 -->
00:44:28.931Or, you know, we could build kind of like, oh, this gets really unethical, human versions of us who actually aren't human, but are they human because we'll get to this level of like thinking like humans and test on them.
00:44:28.931 -->
00:44:29.889Oh, good.
00:44:29.889 -->
00:44:30.715doubles.
00:44:30.715 -->
00:44:33.523I mean, I mean, those are called twin studies.
00:44:34.858 -->
00:44:36.978There is, there is.
00:44:37.478 -->
00:44:39.458could, yeah, we could do that.
00:44:39.458 -->
00:44:48.478Look at, yeah, all the different like set of divides, socioeconomic statuses, get all of the imaging equipment you could ever want.
00:44:48.605 -->
00:44:53.268What's that show that that movie way realizes he's in like a massive TV show?
00:44:53.268 -->
00:44:54.981Human show?
00:44:54.981 -->
00:44:56.331It's very human show, isn't it?
00:44:56.331 -->
00:44:59.894We just like at the end, like, by the way, this is all a massive research study.
00:44:59.894 -->
00:45:04.909Yeah, and I think that's wrong.
00:45:04.929 -->
00:45:06.409The idea is not good.
00:45:09.012 -->
00:45:38.442So maybe, so maybe something more along the lines of like, in reality, if I had all the funds in the world and there was no ethics, or maybe a bit of ethics, like a uh biobank times a thousand, like a huge, massive study, like life long study, looking at people's hearing and brain outcomes from birth until the other one.
00:45:38.442 -->
00:45:58.096m And, you know, really monitoring people longitudinally, like looking at like, It could tell you about detection, treatment, monitoring, or like biomarkers em in an ethical, bio-banky way, but just bigger and way more representative.
00:45:58.096 -->
00:46:13.137So all different types of people, you'd go to them in their communities and, you know, that kind of thing, like a huge, massive lifetime study with 10,000 participants, 100,000.
00:46:13.563 -->
00:46:15.083100,000, 100,000 sold.
00:46:15.083 -->
00:46:16.302You can have it.
00:46:16.302 -->
00:46:18.963I think something along that as well, which you of touched on as well.
00:46:18.963 -->
00:46:33.782I'm thinking about this because the last person we had on was a gentleman called Daniel and he does replication studies in South America because a lot of the studies that are done are all, you know, very, you know, westernized in terms of like Europe and America.
00:46:33.782 -->
00:46:35.043So he tries to redo them.
00:46:35.043 -->
00:46:37.382So like if we had like 100,000, we could do it.
00:46:37.382 -->
00:46:38.702We could take it worldwide.
00:46:38.702 -->
00:46:40.882We could have 60 weeks of improvement.
00:46:42.429 -->
00:46:45.608Yeah, worldwide, worldwide, well, that was alright.
00:46:46.782 -->
00:46:48.822Yeah, and I think that would be really cool.
00:46:48.822 -->
00:46:50.882There's probably people already doing that kind of thing, maybe.
00:46:50.882 -->
00:46:53.242But yeah, that would be amazing.
00:46:54.643 -->
00:46:56.282I said it.
00:46:57.123 -->
00:46:58.583Nobody copied me.
00:47:02.050 -->
00:47:03.619I'm going for thick books.
00:47:05.101 -->
00:47:08.014Like, like, Patton did say that you did it first.
00:47:08.014 -->
00:47:17.291Although I learned something very weird about patent law that apparently for, this was actually one of the guests on the podcast a while ago called Keith Sawyer.
00:47:17.291 -->
00:47:27.079He said that patent law is actually really weird because you can challenge something by saying that it, that it was obvious.
00:47:27.079 -->
00:47:33.925So if, some, if you can convince the patent law that whatever idea was obvious, then you can take the patent away.
00:47:35.344 -->
00:47:36.733my god.
00:47:36.733 -->
00:47:37.320Okay.
00:47:37.320 -->
00:47:43.894So you just need to show that this was, cause you can only patent things which are like really creative and non-obvious things.
00:47:43.894 -->
00:47:44.755So.
00:47:44.876 -->
00:47:47.568so like, that's a clearly an obvious invention.
00:47:47.568 -->
00:47:50.536like I mean I would have done I would have done it if I had the money.
00:47:50.536 -->
00:47:54.701Yeah, like I didn't think of it.
00:47:55.981 -->
00:47:58.043I did watch Magnistan last night.
00:47:58.043 -->
00:47:59.043Anyone?
00:47:59.644 -->
00:48:02.005Well, I did.
00:48:02.005 -->
00:48:04.307And you've reminded me a pattern of love through that.
00:48:04.307 -->
00:48:07.028People are inventing very interesting things.
00:48:08.050 -->
00:48:08.990Yeah.
00:48:10.210 -->
00:48:14.778wild things have come out on a dragon's den recently.
00:48:14.786 -->
00:48:18.534Yesterday was like smelly bananas that go in your shoes.
00:48:19.684 -->
00:48:21.242Interesting.
00:48:21.289 -->
00:48:22.047Interesting.
00:48:22.047 -->
00:48:23.487a Jewish for the spelling.
00:48:23.487 -->
00:48:26.206To be honest, was one where I was like, are these available now?
00:48:26.623 -->
00:48:30.047Yeah, I'm sure my partner would love for me to those.
00:48:30.047 -->
00:48:31.626a little look, yeah.
00:48:32.126 -->
00:48:38.166I once thought I'd invented something which was, you know, like cans of Coke and things that you, once you open them, you can't close them again.
00:48:38.166 -->
00:48:40.726I thought I'd invented a lid for those.
00:48:40.726 -->
00:48:42.387And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
00:48:42.387 -->
00:48:43.487Why has nobody done this?
00:48:43.487 -->
00:48:44.706It already exists.
00:48:45.467 -->
00:48:46.887It's one of those things.
00:48:46.887 -->
00:48:48.090You think you've...
00:48:48.090 -->
00:48:50.190yeah, there's all these things you think you invented.
00:48:50.670 -->
00:48:53.990My pot, no, I probably actually, no, ignore that.
00:48:53.990 -->
00:48:56.751I'm actually, I'll you afterwards.
00:48:56.751 -->
00:48:58.670Not for the podcast.
00:48:59.311 -->
00:49:00.239Just a minute.
00:49:00.608 -->
00:49:02.969I find you want me to ask that.
00:49:03.610 -->
00:49:11.920OK, after after after that tangent, um coming back, coming back to your research and duplicate.
00:49:11.920 -->
00:49:16.423um Is there any because you've been part of so many studies?
00:49:16.423 -->
00:49:18.048Is there any sort of thing which?
00:49:18.048 -->
00:49:21.016I mean, let's just cut that.
00:49:21.016 -->
00:49:22.768You've been part of studies.
00:49:25.528 -->
00:49:26.268No.
00:49:27.947 -->
00:49:30.871Is there anything interesting which you found in your research?
00:49:30.871 -->
00:49:37.467uh Sort of anything which jumps out at you or did jump at you at the time?
00:49:37.467 -->
00:49:51.204Yeah, that's so hard because I feel like whenever I'm doing a particular piece of research or study, I'm like so consumed by it and I find everything about it interesting even when all the p-values are not significant.
00:49:51.469 -->
00:49:52.869I'm well.
00:49:53.449 -->
00:50:00.554But I just think, yeah, I'm always so fascinated about what the next step for each of those studies is.
00:50:00.554 -->
00:50:04.686So I'm still super fascinated by my PhD research.
00:50:04.686 -->
00:50:13.380I've got plans at the moment to sort of get back into some of that work and take it a bit forwards with some new ideas.
00:50:13.380 -->
00:50:19.764So I'm really interested in using measures that could be collected in the real world.
00:50:19.851 -->
00:50:38.978that we have on our devices, because everyone has a smartwatch now, and using those measures that are collected from there to integrate with hearing aids maybe or something like that to measure listening effort in the real world and adjust hearing aid algorithms somehow, or maybe implement those kinds of measures in the clinic.
00:50:38.978 -->
00:50:45.983And I'm really excited about that, because in my PhD research, I found that some of these cardiovascular measures do.
00:50:46.378 -->
00:50:52.528respond reliably to changes in listening demand and the importance of listening or your motivation to listen.
00:50:52.528 -->
00:50:57.481So it could be really exciting actually to bring some of these things forwards.
00:50:57.481 -->
00:50:59.882And that's something that really fascinates me.
00:50:59.882 -->
00:51:04.467em And at the moment we're finishing up.
00:51:04.467 -->
00:51:11.501em we're preparing a publication based on the TMS research that I told you about with the alpha entrainment.
00:51:11.501 -->
00:51:14.423So trying to boost alpha activity in the brain.
00:51:14.784 -->
00:51:22.630And we've been looking at how that might, how we might be to do that and how it affects different brain regions differently based on age.
00:51:22.630 -->
00:51:24.242Again, I won't say too much.
00:51:24.242 -->
00:51:25.873You have to read the paper.
00:51:27.355 -->
00:51:29.409But that's, I find that that's really...
00:51:29.409 -->
00:51:47.009fascinating and we've got some interesting interesting data there that might suggest that you some of these techniques that we can use to boost brain activity might help m or benefit m certain functions that you typically wouldn't think about using brain simulation for I guess.
00:51:47.088 -->
00:51:50.201So yeah, those things.
00:51:50.201 -->
00:51:52.661and well, I'll look at the paper on that one.
00:51:52.661 -->
00:52:01.780Before when I mentioned age, because you just mentioned, you really mentioned that like you losing your hearing as you get older, is that conception, would you say?
00:52:02.422 -->
00:52:26.050So this is, you were saying like, think of something that was like a controversial statement or something, I thought of like, there's no such thing as age-related hearing loss, which I don't actually think is correct, because, you know, hearing loss does happen as we get older, but it may be that it's more like the accumulation of these lifestyle factors or noise exposure throughout your life rather than a specific, something that happens.
00:52:26.668 -->
00:52:28.768as you get older, regardless.
00:52:28.929 -->
00:52:32.489I think this can be a misconception with a lot of age associated conditions.
00:52:32.489 -->
00:52:38.349I know that a lot of people think that dementia is just something that happens as you get older, which is not, it's disease.
00:52:38.469 -->
00:52:50.103I think it's, yeah, I think that's with, I mean, with these things, age is a risk factor, but it may be that it's like some of these lifestyle factors that.
00:52:50.103 -->
00:52:58.074that accumulate over the all life course that make it so that you are more likely to experience hearing loss as you get older or more steeper hearing loss maybe.
00:52:59.507 -->
00:53:06.376interesting yes it's more of a not very controversial at all actually, but I mean, that's just the scary thing to do.
00:53:06.376 -->
00:53:12.255I think it's like, I think a lot of people think like as you get older, you just lose your hearing like that, you know, it's just age-related hearing loss.
00:53:12.255 -->
00:53:15.878Yeah, and I mean, yeah, definitely to do with that.
00:53:15.878 -->
00:53:18.737you know, there are are other factors that might affect it.
00:53:18.737 -->
00:53:19.027Yeah.
00:53:19.027 -->
00:53:21.880I selective hearing gets more common the older you get.
00:53:21.880 -->
00:53:29.797I remember my granddad would not respond to anything for ages, and then you whisper something at her and be like, yeah, is that what you said?
00:53:29.797 -->
00:53:32.010And you'd be like, how have you heard this?
00:53:37.576 -->
00:53:43.016I can't be bothered with the rest of it, but you're talking about food now, so.
00:53:43.016 -->
00:53:43.927stuff.
00:53:44.545 -->
00:53:47.585That's classic grandparent style.
00:53:47.585 -->
00:53:54.239So you mentioned before, sometimes when you get no significance in p-values, you're fine with it.
00:53:54.239 -->
00:53:56.789So not a lot people feel quite down when that happens.
00:53:56.789 -->
00:54:03.452What keeps you motivated when experiments go wrong or you might not get the result that you were hoping for?
00:54:03.612 -->
00:54:05.172What keeps you going?
00:54:05.554 -->
00:54:11.311is such a good question because I think there's this whole thing of like you're desperate to.
00:54:11.690 -->
00:54:19.762Because you're so passionate about something and you have a hypothesis and you believe it because it's evidence based, you've done the reading, you think something's going to happen.
00:54:19.762 -->
00:54:23.695And then when it doesn't, of course, you maybe feel a bit disappointed.
00:54:23.695 -->
00:54:30.577And there's a whole publication bias against, you know, non-significant results that they're less likely to get published.
00:54:30.577 -->
00:54:36.568So we see significant data all the time, but that's because the non-significant data is less likely to be published.
00:54:36.568 -->
00:54:40.057m And I think the data are what the data are.
00:54:40.057 -->
00:54:46.382My PhD supervisor and postdoc PI taught me that, know, it is what it is.
00:54:46.382 -->
00:54:47.393We can't control it.
00:54:47.393 -->
00:54:48.963We've done our rigorous research.
00:54:48.963 -->
00:54:53.628We have our results and these are what, this is what we found.
00:54:53.628 -->
00:54:55.018It may be because of these reasons.
00:54:55.018 -->
00:55:05.775It may be because of something else in a way it can get you to think a bit more broadly about what you've done, like question some of your methods maybe, or, you know, think about, you know, what the next step could be.
00:55:05.775 -->
00:55:10.782em if it's not confirming what your original thoughts were, I guess.
00:55:10.782 -->
00:55:16.090But yeah, I always feel a bit like, oh God, wish I would have found things significant, but you're not always gonna find that.
00:55:16.090 -->
00:55:21.880I think somebody told me once that like out of 10 studies you do, eight are gonna have non-significant results and that's how it is.
00:55:21.880 -->
00:55:26.458oh I think a non-significant result tells you a lot, right?
00:55:26.458 -->
00:55:30.778I think non-significant results in themselves are significant.
00:55:30.778 -->
00:55:44.159It says that you might be learning a lot of things, or it might be dispelling a misconception which we had about something because poor research which was significant was published before and so you're going off that.
00:55:44.159 -->
00:55:49.458But in reality, maybe the trend is actually non-significant.
00:55:50.516 -->
00:55:50.907Yeah.
00:55:50.907 -->
00:55:54.507And we're obsessed with key values and maybe we shouldn't be at all.
00:55:54.507 -->
00:55:56.170Let's go Bayesian.
00:55:56.289 -->
00:55:57.170Yeah.
00:56:01.059 -->
00:56:14.420As a guess is like an example, let's say, know, like having a cat boosts your ability, know, feature hearing ability when you get older and you don't, you know, you don't find that.
00:56:14.420 -->
00:56:16.681And it's like, oh, actually you just find it the opposite.
00:56:16.681 -->
00:56:22.960Like actually there's no significant cats have nothing to do with like hearing in any way.
00:56:24.340 -->
00:56:25.280Is that true?
00:56:25.280 -->
00:56:26.360it true?
00:56:26.891 -->
00:56:31.547I don't know actually, is it true that cats only meow to humans?
00:56:31.978 -->
00:56:33.291Yeah, I think that is true.
00:56:33.291 -->
00:56:35.414Yeah, they are.
00:56:35.494 -->
00:56:35.976Yeah.
00:56:35.976 -->
00:56:41.744And some of them, specifically my cat Moose, knows how to meow like a baby.
00:56:42.586 -->
00:56:43.728Meows is like...
00:56:43.728 -->
00:56:53.001em you Do your neighbours think you might have a child?
00:56:53.146 -->
00:57:04.018Yeah, I think so, especially in the morning when he's like aggressively screaming and then if he gets really really frustrated, it's just like, RAAA! And then it sounds like a child is like screaming.
00:57:04.788 -->
00:57:09.793I like how towards the end of this podcast, it's just gonna be better doing cat noises.
00:57:10.251 -->
00:57:13.940Yeah, it's descended into sort of cat impersonations.
00:57:13.940 -->
00:57:18.320my other cat Thor didn't meow when we first got him and think Moose has taught him.
00:57:18.320 -->
00:57:19.820So now he meows like...
00:57:24.380 -->
00:57:28.503That's okay, I could do this all day, but we are here for science throughout the day.
00:57:28.503 -->
00:57:29.545could you do?
00:57:30.809 -->
00:57:33.009I'd do different types of cats.
00:57:33.068 -->
00:57:35.208I won't, but I could.
00:57:35.208 -->
00:57:39.108I wanted you all to know that I could go on for hours, but I'm saving us all.
00:57:39.108 -->
00:57:40.469I'm saving us all.
00:57:40.599 -->
00:57:49.847This this this laughing and communicating kind of is a very nice segue into Kate's comedy.
00:57:49.847 -->
00:57:52.349So you're a stand up comedian.
00:57:52.510 -->
00:57:54.983Both of you are actually bet bet is as well.
00:57:54.983 -->
00:57:57.684You guys have done do lacks together as well.
00:57:58.824 -->
00:58:04.322We do have a double act and I think we should we need to do it again Beth.
00:58:04.322 -->
00:58:05.652It was great.
00:58:05.652 -->
00:58:08.025I'm very much so here for it.
00:58:08.025 -->
00:58:12.411Amy Gadala is here to terrify you once again.
00:58:14.739 -->
00:58:15.530so fun.
00:58:15.530 -->
00:58:16.739And you are as well, Sahir.
00:58:16.739 -->
00:58:18.485I mean, I mean, I did it once.
00:58:18.485 -->
00:58:21.463So, I mean, technically, if you if you stretch the thing.
00:58:21.463 -->
00:58:21.867Count.
00:58:21.867 -->
00:58:22.692very funny.
00:58:22.692 -->
00:58:24.039It was very funny.
00:58:24.039 -->
00:58:25.534It was very funny.
00:58:25.706 -->
00:58:28.634But can you talk to us about this?
00:58:28.634 -->
00:58:35.005got you interested in sort of like science communication and particularly like in doing it through comedy?
00:58:36.523 -->
00:58:42.034Yeah, this is such a nice topic because I think it's something that we all love a lot.
00:58:42.074 -->
00:58:44.275Obviously you host a podcast together.
00:58:44.275 -->
00:58:50.416em But yeah, I've always been very m shy.
00:58:50.416 -->
00:58:53.777Like I did not ever contribute in school.
00:58:53.777 -->
00:58:59.420If there was ever like a group project, I was not volunteering to like do any of the speaking roles, nothing like that.
00:58:59.420 -->
00:59:02.351just, I had maybe like a fear of public speaking.
00:59:02.351 -->
00:59:03.300I don't know.
00:59:03.532 -->
00:59:08.293But when I did my PhD, I had a conversation with my supervisor.
00:59:08.293 -->
00:59:11.913It like, you have to sign up for things and it will kind of force you to do it.
00:59:11.913 -->
00:59:21.152And I ended up, you know, doing a couple of talks and things and kind of fell in love with being able to talk about my research in a way that I...
00:59:22.496 -->
00:59:24.858I could understand it in a way.
00:59:24.858 -->
00:59:34.001It helped me to grasp what I was doing to be talking about it in a way that didn't use the terms that I'd only ever seen written down and all this kind of stuff.
00:59:34.021 -->
00:59:36.963And I really started to enjoy it.
00:59:36.963 -->
00:59:40.914And then when I was doing my postdoc, I did a lot of talks in the community.
00:59:40.914 -->
00:59:44.465So going to older adult groups, talk to them about hearing and that kind of thing.
00:59:44.465 -->
00:59:45.686And I loved that.
00:59:45.686 -->
00:59:51.389And then I saw an advert for a year long.
00:59:51.990 -->
01:00:00.746free online, not online, in-person science communication, like mentorship program with this person, Dr.
01:00:00.746 -->
01:00:03.768Steve Cross, who is an engagement professional.
01:00:03.768 -->
01:00:07.431And I'd done some workshops with him in the past and I thought that he was a great guy.
01:00:07.431 -->
01:00:11.795And I saw that he was running this year long oh science communication mentorship program.
01:00:12.434 -->
01:00:18.099And I signed up and then a month later I received an email like, send in your sets.
01:00:18.460 -->
01:00:20.260I was like, send in my set?
01:00:20.525 -->
01:00:22.425What do mean send in my set?
01:00:22.425 -->
01:00:28.744He's like, yeah, you know, sign up for one of our stand up comedy events and you know, send in your set.
01:00:29.905 -->
01:00:31.324What do you want about?
01:00:31.864 -->
01:00:36.144Yeah, I wrote a stand up comedy set and then went and performed it.
01:00:36.144 -->
01:00:39.525And it's one of those out of body experiences where you're like, I'm just doing this now.
01:00:39.525 -->
01:00:43.184Like I've side questioned so hard that I'm now doing this.
01:00:43.364 -->
01:00:50.181I have papers to write and yet here I am painting a cochlear onto my jeans and then.
01:00:50.400 -->
01:00:51.456whipping it out.
01:00:51.456 -->
01:01:03.913You We won't give any more context to that because m you have to come see one of Kate's shows to really truly appreciate the fantasticness of it all.
01:01:04.005 -->
01:01:06.246but it was one of the, it's one of the best things I've done.
01:01:06.246 -->
01:01:10.797And I, I've always loved, you know, bringing in like lightness and silliness.
01:01:10.797 -->
01:01:17.871And I think it makes things a lot more accessible when you feel like it's okay to, it's okay to look a bit silly.
01:01:17.871 -->
01:01:19.311It's okay to sound a bit silly.
01:01:19.311 -->
01:01:22.943It's okay to ask questions that maybe seem a bit out there or.
01:01:22.943 -->
01:01:28.608It's what you guys are doing with this, you know, it's okay to be curious and you don't have to know the answers.
01:01:28.608 -->
01:01:36.414You don't have to sound, you know, a certain way, look a certain way, be a certain type of person to do or communicate science.
01:01:36.414 -->
01:01:37.646It's for everyone.
01:01:37.646 -->
01:01:41.648And I really, I feel quite passionate about that.
01:01:41.648 -->
01:01:46.452oh And I think comedy is such a fun window.
01:01:46.945 -->
01:01:48.518you can open into science.
01:01:48.518 -->
01:01:50.001Like, science is ridiculous.
01:01:50.001 -->
01:01:55.001We may as well tell people what we're doing because what we're doing is weird.
01:01:55.505 -->
01:01:57.864Yeah, that's such a great way to put it.
01:01:57.864 -->
01:01:58.125Yeah.
01:01:58.125 -->
01:02:17.224And you you've, think like just the nice thing is like saying is like you, you know, you would in school, you're quite shy and then like just push comfort zone to be like, just give it a go because it's honestly, guess in science and the science and comedy world that yes, there is like a little kind of like, like niche where quite a lot of people are actually involved in.
01:02:17.224 -->
01:02:19.324It's really, really supportive.
01:02:19.344 -->
01:02:20.465if you want to get involved.
01:02:20.465 -->
01:02:21.123nice.
01:02:21.123 -->
01:02:22.302So, so, so nice.
01:02:22.302 -->
01:02:23.844People want you to do well.
01:02:23.844 -->
01:02:25.746They want to create events.
01:02:25.746 -->
01:02:29.068They want you to bounce ideas off of them.
01:02:29.068 -->
01:02:33.742And there's been things where they haven't gone as planned as you wanted them to.
01:02:33.742 -->
01:02:36.324But honestly, it doesn't matter.
01:02:36.324 -->
01:02:39.056People will remember the funny part, the very funny parts.
01:02:39.056 -->
01:02:47.152But yeah, you've only just been hilarious because you hosted an event a few months ago and it was just so good.
01:02:47.152 -->
01:02:47.949So good.
01:02:47.949 -->
01:02:49.077it with me.
01:02:50.164 -->
01:02:52.237Amy Gadala, host of the show.
01:02:52.237 -->
01:02:53.458you, wasn't you?
01:02:54.360 -->
01:02:57.902Yeah, yeah, I would recommend it to anyone.
01:02:57.902 -->
01:03:12.416It's such a confidence building for ability to like change the way you communicate, to think about science in a different way, to make somebody excited about science through a silly story or a comedic story, I think is really powerful.
01:03:12.416 -->
01:03:18.440And I think just having joy in life is so important, you know.
01:03:19.070 -->
01:03:19.875It's underrated.
01:03:19.875 -->
01:03:21.507Like, let's have a bit more joy.
01:03:21.507 -->
01:03:26.467Yeah, let's combine our favourite things, the brain and having fun.
01:03:26.467 -->
01:03:28.351Great! Sounds like the dream.
01:03:28.351 -->
01:03:29.802Sounds like the dream.
01:03:30.351 -->
01:03:32.876Yeah, it's such so, so fun.
01:03:32.876 -->
01:03:37.753It's obviously horrible and stressful and nearly cry every time, but also fun.
01:03:37.753 -->
01:03:38.972It's addictive.
01:03:38.972 -->
01:03:44.552It's like after you don't, you're like, again, like, I'm not going to do that month of, know, dressing.
01:03:44.552 -->
01:03:49.253Is this going to be funny for that half an hour afterwards where I feel great?
01:03:49.373 -->
01:03:49.733Yeah.
01:03:49.733 -->
01:03:54.246there's not a lot of opportunity in science that people like literally cheer you.
01:03:55.289 -->
01:04:05.273And when it happens, uh Not once have I been to a conference where someone's giving like a standing ovation and laugh with you.
01:04:05.804 -->
01:04:12.025You go on you tell a few jokes about whatever and they're like this is clap clap clap laugh laugh laugh.
01:04:12.505 -->
01:04:13.905Look at me.
01:04:14.713 -->
01:04:18.400Yes, I'm like, I'm the most amazing person for the next half hour.
01:04:19.849 -->
01:04:22.530Yeah, but I've had people come up to me after it's like, I'm going to try it.
01:04:22.530 -->
01:04:23.291I'm going to do it.
01:04:23.291 -->
01:04:25.681Or, you know, that's, that's really cool.
01:04:25.681 -->
01:04:26.592I'm so glad you said that.
01:04:26.592 -->
01:04:32.876Or I'm like, I'm really glad you said that you, you, you know, you weren't clever in school or you weren't like the cleverest in the class or whatever.
01:04:32.876 -->
01:04:34.567It's made me think differently about science.
01:04:34.567 -->
01:04:42.092And I think just like open communication, authentic people in science and just, you know, we're all daft.
01:04:42.092 -->
01:04:46.184So let's just get up on stage and be daft.
01:04:48.043 -->
01:04:48.724This is true.
01:04:48.724 -->
01:04:52.271uh made you guys want to...
01:04:52.271 -->
01:04:57.291So you both came to Science Comedy recently.
01:04:57.637 -->
01:04:59.115Can I interview you?
01:04:59.115 -->
01:05:01.052m course, of course.
01:05:01.052 -->
01:05:01.733I was switching it up.
01:05:01.733 -->
01:05:03.012Doctors confess.
01:05:03.313 -->
01:05:05.750Confess why you got into science communication.
01:05:05.750 -->
01:05:07.311Yeah, what made what?
01:05:07.311 -->
01:05:08.141What was your thing?
01:05:08.141 -->
01:05:19.940Because you came up with this idea for the British and British Neuroscience Festival sorry about, you know, putting on an event, a comedy event, which Yeah, so it was for the British Neuroscience Association.
01:05:20.021 -->
01:05:28.240They had some money available there and I've been working with them and I've done quite a lot of science communication stuff and loved it.
01:05:28.740 -->
01:05:31.280And my mum told me I was really funny.
01:05:31.501 -->
01:05:35.161So I did get a big head on that and I was like, you know what, why not?
01:05:35.161 -->
01:05:37.880You know, I'll organise it and then I'll see if I want to get involved in it.
01:05:37.880 -->
01:05:40.240And I was like, you know what, why not?
01:05:40.300 -->
01:05:45.081Yeah, so I just thought like, what's a good way, you know, that we can bring the brain and science together.
01:05:45.081 -->
01:05:52.201And I actually didn't really know there was like a really big, I kind of knew a couple of science comedians.
01:05:52.201 -->
01:05:58.240But then with Susanna Walker, she was like, get in touch with Kate Slade because she will also love this.
01:05:58.240 -->
01:06:08.380So that's when like me and you like mess up like, know, in 2020, end of 2024, was it like October, And we're like, yeah, nearly a year ago actually.
01:06:09.621 -->
01:06:12.512And yeah, obviously like you were like.
01:06:12.512 -->
01:06:14.215You were like, yeah, you can do this, you can do this.
01:06:14.215 -->
01:06:17.539And it was like perfect because I hadn't, you know, run one before.
01:06:17.760 -->
01:06:18.746And yeah, it was really good.
01:06:18.746 -->
01:06:22.065It was like almost sold out, I think, for both the evening.
01:06:23.213 -->
01:06:23.943Thank you.
01:06:23.943 -->
01:06:27.701what a smash for your first science comedy event.
01:06:27.701 -->
01:06:29.981So, Neuro Knights, what a dream.
01:06:29.981 -->
01:06:36.920But I didn't really come without like everybody like, first of all, signing up, like Kate, like guiding me on like kind of where to go.
01:06:36.920 -->
01:06:43.380And then everybody else like Adash, Sarah, Ben, gosh, who else is in the group?
01:06:43.380 -->
01:06:48.280I it was the main ones, like all getting involved and, you know, putting it together.
01:06:48.280 -->
01:06:50.240It was a very much so a group effort.
01:06:50.240 -->
01:06:51.300But it was my baby.
01:06:51.300 -->
01:06:51.960It was my child.
01:06:51.960 -->
01:06:52.621It still is.
01:06:52.621 -->
01:06:54.661I would like to another one.
01:06:54.940 -->
01:06:55.800Yeah.
01:06:55.836 -->
01:06:58.179And yet you just get to have fun.
01:06:58.179 -->
01:06:59.760It's just can be as wacky as you want to.
01:06:59.760 -->
01:07:08.248Like when my partner came to one of the events, they were like, this literally has you written all over it.
01:07:08.248 -->
01:07:09.190I can just see it.
01:07:09.190 -->
01:07:16.146It's just so like beautifully chaotic, like organized chaos, but it's working so beautifully well.
01:07:16.146 -->
01:07:18.909Like you, when I was like, great, that is okay.
01:07:18.909 -->
01:07:20.539As long as it works well, that's fine.
01:07:20.539 -->
01:07:21.273But.
01:07:21.273 -->
01:07:23.652Yeah, it was a very enjoyable experience.
01:07:23.652 -->
01:07:24.373I'd like to do again.
01:07:24.373 -->
01:07:26.572I would like to, I will, I will do it again.
01:07:26.572 -->
01:07:29.373In I planned to do it in November, so I am going to do it again.
01:07:30.081 -->
01:07:32.463Everybody come watch Beth November.
01:07:32.463 -->
01:07:32.923Yeah.
01:07:32.923 -->
01:07:33.204Yeah.
01:07:33.204 -->
01:07:33.871Yeah.
01:07:33.871 -->
01:07:34.873In Liverpool, again?
01:07:34.873 -->
01:07:35.938Or Manchester this time?
01:07:35.938 -->
01:07:36.958Where is it?
01:07:37.335 -->
01:07:39.177Are you going to go to it, Kate?
01:07:39.210 -->
01:07:39.927Yeah, I'm gonna try.
01:07:39.927 -->
01:07:40.760What is it?
01:07:40.760 -->
01:07:42.456I don't know, they haven't said it yet.
01:07:42.456 -->
01:07:43.438Do we?
01:07:46.505 -->
01:07:50.427No, have to, you have to, you have to, this is you.
01:07:51.126 -->
01:07:52.818You gotta go up on your own.
01:07:52.818 -->
01:07:54.188is...
01:07:56.148 -->
01:07:58.148Yeah, and then we do a thing.
01:07:59.268 -->
01:08:01.170We do our own thing together.
01:08:01.969 -->
01:08:02.849Yeah.
01:08:03.371 -->
01:08:11.713I mean, obviously I love you and I would love to do it with you, but I think also you would be, this would be a great...
01:08:11.949 -->
01:08:15.454Way to introduce her on her own and then see where she stands.
01:08:16.168 -->
01:08:18.963Yeah, who knows, who knows?
01:08:18.963 -->
01:08:19.684Yeah.
01:08:19.684 -->
01:08:21.545Yeah, you did such an amazing job.
01:08:21.545 -->
01:08:23.856And I remember that first meeting with you online.
01:08:23.856 -->
01:08:25.979oh So good.
01:08:25.979 -->
01:08:29.641You know, you meet someone, you're like, this is such a great person.
01:08:29.641 -->
01:08:30.813What a great energy.
01:08:30.813 -->
01:08:32.853Like, so good.
01:08:32.853 -->
01:08:38.273said to me, she's like, I was like, she was just saying like, okay, it's like, said, you're just gonna really like her.
01:08:38.273 -->
01:08:40.872I just really know you two are gonna get on incredibly well.
01:08:40.872 -->
01:08:41.693I was like, okay.
01:08:41.693 -->
01:08:44.552I was like, afterwards I was like, I see what you meant, Susanna.
01:08:44.552 -->
01:08:45.708Yeah, good energy.
01:08:45.708 -->
01:08:46.461So nice.
01:08:46.461 -->
01:08:47.534So nice.
01:08:47.534 -->
01:08:49.000And you as well Sahir, obviously.
01:08:49.000 -->
01:08:50.465But you weren't in that first one thing.
01:08:50.465 -->
01:08:52.319But when I met you, I felt the same.
01:08:53.694 -->
01:08:55.375No, I was not.
01:08:55.895 -->
01:08:58.814Stand-up comedy is what, like, yeah, Beth got me into it for that.
01:08:58.814 -->
01:09:03.354I literally got a text from her being like, I need you to do something for me.
01:09:03.354 -->
01:09:04.335I was like, what?
01:09:04.335 -->
01:09:05.814She's like, sign up for this.
01:09:05.814 -->
01:09:08.895I'm afraid we won't get many people signing up at that point in time.
01:09:08.895 -->
01:09:11.095I was like, OK, cool, I'll sign up.
01:09:11.814 -->
01:09:14.675And then we got so many people by the end of it.
01:09:14.752 -->
01:09:17.854Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was it was great.
01:09:17.854 -->
01:09:20.074It was yeah and your set was fantastic.
01:09:20.074 -->
01:09:21.157Yeah, you're amazing.
01:09:21.157 -->
01:09:21.658Thank you.
01:09:21.658 -->
01:09:22.048Thank you.
01:09:22.048 -->
01:09:22.739Appreciate it.
01:09:22.739 -->
01:09:26.795ah can talk about this after the podcast.
01:09:27.796 -->
01:09:29.057Still recording.
01:09:32.003 -->
01:09:33.470Sorry, my bad.
01:09:34.175 -->
01:09:35.296No, no, no.
01:09:35.296 -->
01:09:37.237Awesome.
01:09:37.318 -->
01:09:41.148Were there any other questions I don't think so.
01:09:41.148 -->
01:09:41.948Thank you for having me.
01:09:41.948 -->
01:09:43.550This has been really fun.
01:09:44.171 -->
01:09:49.284It makes me, yeah, it's really nice to talk about stuff because then you get a bit of like, I have done some things.
01:09:49.284 -->
01:09:52.087I think when you asked me to do this, I was like, I don't think I've done anything.
01:09:52.087 -->
01:09:53.717I want nothing to talk about.
01:09:53.934 -->
01:09:58.627Yes, I generally think we could have carried on talking for like a lot longer.
01:09:58.627 -->
01:10:00.600I've got many questions still to ask.
01:10:00.600 -->
01:10:02.375Yeah, this has been really, really nice.
01:10:02.375 -->
01:10:04.060And yeah, I'll just do it as claim.
01:10:04.060 -->
01:10:05.393I'm not sure if anything I said was correct.
01:10:05.393 -->
01:10:05.703Thanks.
01:10:05.703 -->
01:10:06.341Bye.
01:10:06.341 -->
01:10:12.185Yeah, well, we're waiting on that I'm stopping recording on that.
01:10:12.185 -->
01:10:16.688Thanks everybody for listening Bye!
