S2, E32: Mistborn, Building Dragonsteel & Becoming Fantasy’s Biggest Author with Brandon Sanderson

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The job lets you meet a lot of interesting people.
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And so that's one aspect of it I never really thought about when I was, you know, a guy writing books in my friend's basement.
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Did I really like it?
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And I had the opposite experience, chemistry.
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When I would sit down to write, time was magical, pun intended.
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Four hours could pass.
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Yeah.
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And I'd be like, wow, I I feel super creative.
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I feel a little exhausted, but in a good way.
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Amazon turned off the ability to buy McMillan books on Amazon.
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Just a blanket, no McMillan books.
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All my books got turned off for a month.
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You know, that's my livelihood.
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By then, Amazon already was the dominant player, and it's even more so now.
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What I found after 20 years of trying to get Mistborn made is it's the Thanos thing, right?
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Like, fine, I need I'll do it myself.
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Always called Mr.
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Anderson.
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Yep.
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Yep.
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I got called Brian Anderson by CNN.
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Yeah.
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You're like, I don't know how to correct this right now.
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It's like one of those moments where like it's too late, we'll just keep going.
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Yeah, I was right, it was right in the early of my career.
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It was just a story about me.
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I wasn't even being interviewed.
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So it's just Brian Anderson is uh releasing a Wheel of Time books now.
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You're like, well, half of that is true, but thank you so much.
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Um well, Brandon, it's soaked to talk to you.
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I mean, it's it's been fun learning more about Utah and like a lot of the faces and people that are really making an impact and do really cool things.
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And it's been fun.
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Like I remember the first time I heard about you was from a coworker I had.
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He's like, Oh, I was just reading a Brandon Sanderson book.
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I'm like, who's Brandon Sanderson?
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He's like, Oh my goodness, like one of the best fantasy writers.
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He's literally down the street because we were working in Lehigh.
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I was like, okay, cool.
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And then that put me on the radar.
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And then the one there's two other things that made me realize kind of your magnitude.
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The first was there's a video that was either on Instagram or TikTok showing the history of kind of your gatherings from like Barnes and Noble through to I mean the most recent at the I mean Saul Palace, where it's completely full, going from like three people all the way to like nearly 12,000 people and showing all of that.
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And then the third one, which is the one that kind of made me like do a double take, was when you did a jersey swap with Wemby when he was in town with the Spurs, and I was like, This like all those three things together.
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Wemby and I had dinner right over there.
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That's insane.
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What is like with him?
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Did he have any like favorite or anything?
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He loves the Stormlight Archive.
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Okay.
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Um, and so he brought his dad and came down here to dinner.
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We chatted nerd stuff all night.
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Well, and it's funny when like I've been able to observe some of those where it's like he's excited to see you because he's a fan of you, and you're excited to see him because you're a fan of him.
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So it's like these kind of fun.
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Yeah, it's fun to have those experiences.
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Yeah, the job lets you meet a lot of interesting people, and so that's one aspect of it I never really thought about when I was, you know, a guy writing books in my friend's basement because I was renting a room from him.
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Like, I never thought, oh, someday, you know, you're gonna go have dinner with Henry Cavill because you both like nerd stuff.
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Oh, and then you're just gonna sit and talk about Tolkien the whole time.
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So yeah.
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Yeah, and well, it's it's fun in like this time of life where nerddom has become mainstream and like celebrated.
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Whereas if I mentioned to someone I was watching Dragon Ball Z or reading Ender's game, I'd be shoved into a locker where now everybody loves Game of Thrones, everybody loves all of the books that are coming out now.
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It's honestly I blame video games, blame in a good way.
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Like video games finally getting into roads that everyone started playing them.
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I feel like opened up the doors to some of the fine fantasy and science fiction ideas.
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Like Halo, like, you know, when I was a kid, only nerds played video games.
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Then Halo hit and some of these games that everyone played, and it really introduced science fiction concepts to a lot of people.
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You you know, your average Joe knows what a Space Marine is because they've played Master Chief, and it just I think that helped a ton.
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Yeah, I mean it gives like a lot of that common ground and builds that where I mean you could say the same thing about Game of Thrones now.
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Yeah.
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Game of Thrones or the MCU, both I think were really big on that.
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No, I love that.
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And I I'm curious because like going back to an upbringing, I mean, you're from Nebraska, which if anyone's ever been in Nebraska, lots of corn, lots of soybeans, but yeah, it's corn in my backyard.
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You never had to go in too far.
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But one thing I loved about when I record recorded with Howard Lyon was he talked about how his parents really championship this creativity in him at a young age.
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Instead of once you kind of reach like, let's say late elementary school, it's like, well, go to math, but it's very pragmatic, science, get good grades, stop drawing, stop coloring, and do this.
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But was there ever a moment in your life where that kind of continued and didn't get shut down?
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Or how did you keep that creativity?
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I'm the inverse of Howard.
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I not through any pushing by anybody, I fell out of like reading and and artistic pursuits when I was in grade school.
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And I was 14, I had a teacher um get me back into reading by assigning me a book.
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And so she assigned me to do a book report, and I kind of cheated on that book report.
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I just read the back of the book, and and she figured it out, and she's like, Look, Brandon, you need to you need to read the books.
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And I'm like, I don't like books.
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And so she really worked with me.
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Uh, and she got me reading, and it was a fantasy book she got me reading.
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She let me pick off of her rack, and I uh I really liked the one that had a dragon on the cover.
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And I fell in love with fantasy books because of that.
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Um, my parents didn't quite know what to do with me.
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Um, I've got parents who were an accountant and a businessman.
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They, you know, love me, they're supportive, but they didn't think writing was a job, right?
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They're like, we love that you love books, but you know, you need to find a job.
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And so I went to to BYU my freshman year as a biochemistry major.
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Yeah.
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Um, just you know, I it's not like they squell squashed it, but how do you become a writer as a job?
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It's just it's it's a hard thing.
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And particularly back then, I think with the internet and with the the advent of you know influencers and creators and indie filmmakers and indie musicians and things, I think people are more aware of the fact that the arts are jobs um than they were back in the day.
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But um so I had to go to college thinking, no, I can't really be a writer.
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That's not a job.
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At what point did that voice enter your head of like, I want to be a writer, but I don't know how to necessarily like fix this Rubik's Cube to put it together?
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Right.
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It was um chemistry.
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Okay.
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Uh so uh for those who if if you're a young person listening to this or watching this, um, chemistry in high school is really fun.
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You freeze stuff, you grow crystals, you blow things up, you go to college, and they've tricked you.
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It's math now.
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And that's important.
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I have some good friends who are chemists, and I'm glad that they exist.
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I'm glad, you know, my my college roommate, chemical engineering, he's he makes microchifts chips for Intel.
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I'm glad that he's there making microchips so that I have a computer to type on.
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Yeah.
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Uh but um freshman year, they put me in the weeder classes, the really hard ones, because I said I declared as a chemistry major.
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They're like, all right, are you actually a chemistry major?
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And I'm like, oh no, I'm not.
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I I hate this.
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This is miserable.
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Um, and then I served a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ Lattery Saints, two years in Korea, and I was so happy to be away from chemistry, but I kept thinking, I miss the writing like that I was just doing in my my free time.
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I'm like, somebody does this job.
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Uh and I was a little older, a little more mature, and I'm like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna change my major to English and I'm gonna give it a try.
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Uh and so I got back from Korea and I wrote 13 books across the next 10 years or so.
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Um, and I eventually sold one.
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So um, yeah.
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Uh what did I the first time what that I thought, oh, this can be a job, is when Dave Wolverton, um a one of my mentors who's since passed away, he came in and taught a class at BYU on how to write science fiction and fantasy.
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It was my senior year, and he was a real author.
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Like he was a person who was making his living at books.
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And the thing about Dave is Dave flirted with the bestseller list, and I think he got one very low on the bestseller list once, but he was never a household name, he was never a massive bestseller, and that was really inspiring to me because he was earning enough to feed his family.
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Um, he was doing actually quite well.
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Uh, and he got to work on some front projects, he worked on uh a little bit on the StarCraft um story for the StarCraft Brood War game and some of these things.
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Like he just consulted on some of that stuff.
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He got to do cool stuff.
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He'd come in and tell us.
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He's like, Yeah, I was consulting with the the StarCraft guys today, and I realized there's there is a job here.
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Yeah, like he's doing it, he's living it.
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If he's living it, maybe I can.
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Yeah.
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And it's like those little data points that give you that optimism.
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Because I remember when I started school, I had a similar experience.
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I was gonna be an architect major.
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I want to be an architect forever, love playing with Legos and Kinects and everything.
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Right.
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And then I sit through this intro to architecture class, I'm like, ooh, swinging a miss.
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Like, not my kind of creativity, not enough jobs, not enough money, on to the next one.
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And I was then from there to civil engineering to pre-pharmacy to business.
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Wow, that's that's quite the yeah.
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I I used college as it should be as like an exploratory place rather than what class is gonna give me an A so I can get out of here.
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But I remember going to my mom when I told her I wasn't gonna go to pharmacy school anymore.
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And my mother's a pediatrician, worry wort, love you, mom, um, but also very pragmatic.
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And so she hears like, oh, you're just gonna go do business?
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Like, what does that even mean?
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Whereas with pharmacy, she knew it all.
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But I love that you, I mean, instantly just start writing.
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But I love that you had this time to write before anything really like got traction.
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I mean, talk to me about what was motivating you through all of that to keep writing when it felt like, for lack of better term, nobody cared.
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Well, it was actually everyone's brain psychology is different, and so this may not work for other aspiring writers out there, but for me, it was really handy that someone told me early on that your first few books are usually pretty terrible because I felt like I was way behind everyone else because I'd made this decision late.
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I'd gotten into writing late, I gotten into stories late.
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And um, I felt like I'm gonna be really far behind, but the fact that everyone's early books are pretty bad gives me a runway, right?
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Like I don't have to be good until book six because what I heard is you're you should throw away your first five books.
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I don't necessarily believe that.
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I've met a lot of writers who their second book is pretty good.
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I don't know a lot of writers that their first book is, right?
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Um, but that gave me a runway.
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And I said, I'm just gonna write five books and I don't even have to show them to anybody.
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I don't have to send them out, I don't have to try to publish them.
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I'm just gonna write those five books uh um and I'm gonna explore different genres and um I'm gonna I'm gonna then decide what I want to do.
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Uh and so I wrote those five books um across, you know, I I I was writing on average a book and a half a year.
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Um and so I wrote those books across like three years or so when I was in my undergrad.
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Um and I I I actually count the time on my mission, I was writing on P Days.
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I got half a book written on that.
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So um for those who don't know, you get like one day off, but it's not much of a day off.
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Yeah, it's like till 5 p.m.
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Yeah.
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Uh and so while my my companions and the other missionaries were playing basketball, I was just sitting writing in a in a notebook, right?
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Um and so, but you know, I had those years to just explore what I like writing, did I really like it?
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And I had the opposite experience of chemistry.
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When I would sit down to write, time was was magical, um, pun intended.
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Like four hours could pass, and I'd be like, wow, I I feel super creative, I feel a little exhausted, but in a good way, I really enjoyed the problems I ran into and problem solving them.
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Like the busy work of writing was uh invigorating to me, whereas the busy work of chemistry was soul crushing to me.
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Going to the lab and running the same test 50 times was just like I hated it.
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00:13:34.050 --> 00:13:41.169
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00:13:53.330 --> 00:14:00.050
Um, I'm a person like uh I I've been invited to be in the choir at church, and I had a friend who was running the choir once.
00:14:00.129 --> 00:14:06.850
So I went, and that was misery because singing the same song over and over, like that is my definition of a personal hell.
00:14:06.930 --> 00:14:07.090
Yeah.
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Uh said spending an hour doing the same song over and over again.
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Um and I but writing it was each book was different.
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I was doing something different with each one, I was exploring uh new new worlds, new forms of storytelling.
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It was really powerful to me.
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So I got done with those five books, and I'm like, look, I don't know if I'll be able to do this as a j as a job, but I love this.
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Yeah.
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So I'm gonna do it for the rest of my life, um, whether or not I do it as a job.
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And I'm gonna spend the next you know, years trying to do it as a job.
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So I want to talk about those first five books because you said there's like so much, I mean per your mentors, like they're not that great, yeah.
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Get that muscle memory.
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But what did you learn in those early books where you're like, whether it be your creative creativity process, your outline, your world building, that once you hit, I mean, for sake of the argument, that sixth book, they're like, welcome, you made it.
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The sixth book is a launch, it's the first one that's sold by coincidence.
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Um so what uh what do you learn?
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You can I I teach, you know, a course on how to write science fiction and fantasy.
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Um that you teach the class that you love so much.
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It is the one that I took.
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I I took it when Dave retired, I took it over.
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Amazing.
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Um and I've been doing it for 20 plus years now.
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Um so I I tell the students my first day, I'm like, this is an art.
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Because it's an art, we can't teach the arts.
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I I can I can teach you how to teach yourself, but no amount of reading how to paint is gonna turn you into a painter.
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No amount of reading how to play the piano is actually gonna turn you into a pianist.
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It's the same thing with writing.
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No amount of listening to a lecture is gonna make you a writer.
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What makes you a writer is sitting down, writing, and then failing, running into the problems, having to fix them.
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And I can give you great tools for if you're like, I'm having this huge problem in my writing, Brandon.
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I can be like, all right, try this, this, and this, and try each of those three tools to fix it.
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One of them, by statistics, will probably work for you better than the other ones.
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You should learn all three because you're gonna run into problems where all three will really help you.
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And then you can try them out and be like, oh, this is what it feels like to try this tool.
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So what it feels like to ask myself, all right, what are my promises that I made and what is the progress that I'm making in my book?
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And uh, is there a mismatch between those?
00:16:25.889 --> 00:16:32.289
Can I make, can I go back and remake the promises at the beginning so they match what I actually want to write about in the book?
00:16:32.529 --> 00:16:37.730
Um, and then what is the natural um fulfillment of those in your payoff?
00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:41.409
Like if you're having structural problems, sometimes that's it.
00:16:41.570 --> 00:16:51.009
Where you think you're writing one style of book, you make the promises, this is gonna be a horror novel and this, but in the middle of it, you're actually doing discovery and finding information.
00:16:51.090 --> 00:17:06.690
You're really writing a mystery, and whatever the aesthetics are, you need to make your promises that this mystery will get solved, so and then your payoff a satisfying conclusion to that mystery rather than using kind of more of the horror that this is gonna be a slasher, that a bunch of people are gonna die, and then one is going to succeed at the end.
00:17:06.850 --> 00:17:10.690
Like, you need to know what your your progress is, what your story that you're trying.
00:17:10.850 --> 00:17:12.529
That tool might work for you.
00:17:12.850 --> 00:17:15.490
Or there might be a different way that works for you.
00:17:15.650 --> 00:17:31.090
Like another way, if you're kind of stuck in that same, uh that same uh sort of spot, is to just try going the other direction completely and be like, use a strategy we call yes but no and I'm not gonna go into the details here, but there's like three strategies to get you out of the same problem.
00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:33.890
Try them all, see which one works for this story.
00:17:34.130 --> 00:17:40.690
Um it is that act of trying it out and learning how the tool works for you that will teach you to be a writer.
00:17:40.769 --> 00:17:51.170
And that's why your first book is usually a disaster, because you're trying hopefully a bunch of different tools and you're struggling through and not fixing the problems because you don't have the experience yet.
00:17:51.330 --> 00:17:55.890
But nothing will give you that experience other than failing at writing that novel.
00:17:56.050 --> 00:18:01.170
And generally, that teaches you so much that your second book locks into place so much better.
00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:04.690
I mean, you've stepped into this role of teaching that you've done forever.
00:18:05.410 --> 00:18:08.450
How does that either a how do you view that?
00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:10.130
Do you view that as a way of like giving back?
00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:13.810
Do you view it as a way of helping with your writing in itself the more that it's part of your life?
00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:16.529
Or how does it fit into like the brand in Sanderson?
00:18:16.850 --> 00:18:22.210
It does help with my writing to be interacting with new writers, but mostly it's the give back.
00:18:22.850 --> 00:18:25.890
Uh Dave's class was so meaningful to me.
00:18:26.050 --> 00:18:29.810
Um, taking that class, meeting a real writer.
00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:34.610
Um, and I don't want to say that the the professors that you usually get aren't real writers.
00:18:34.690 --> 00:18:41.650
They are, but what they're not generally doing is writing uh commercially viable fiction uh that they have to make a living on.
00:18:41.810 --> 00:18:41.970
Yeah.
00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:42.370
Right?
00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:46.210
They're they're writing a different style of fiction, which is perfectly valid.
00:18:46.370 --> 00:18:59.570
Uh some great things come out of uh of what we term more literary fiction, though I I don't know if I like that term, but um you know the less commercially viable fiction is it does some really interesting things.
00:18:59.650 --> 00:19:00.930
There's a lot to learn from it.
00:19:01.170 --> 00:19:05.410
But what they haven't had to do is fix a character arc.
00:19:05.650 --> 00:19:07.250
People hate the care my character.
00:19:07.330 --> 00:19:08.210
What do I do?
00:19:08.450 --> 00:19:16.130
Well, they're like, well, if they hate the character, like that doesn't really matter because that's not what um that fiction is trying to do.
00:19:16.290 --> 00:19:19.090
Uh they haven't had to really work with a structure.
00:19:19.250 --> 00:19:28.930
Um, and they certainly haven't had to work on uh a publication deadline or with contracts, and they wouldn't know how to go about getting a publishing deal.
00:19:29.090 --> 00:19:29.330
Yeah.
00:19:29.490 --> 00:19:29.970
Right?
00:19:30.290 --> 00:19:38.610
Meeting Dave, who knew all these things, and I you he he would just come and say, Hey, here's how publishing works, and here's how people get publishing deals, was just like a revelation.
00:19:38.770 --> 00:19:42.370
It's like, you know, the heaven has opened and a beam of light has come down.
00:19:42.610 --> 00:19:47.090
And it was just Dave casually saying, Oh, yeah, this is how it is, because it was his life.
00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:53.890
Um, and then you know, I stayed very close with Dave when I I followed his advice and I sold on his advice.
00:19:54.130 --> 00:19:59.330
Um, and then he took me on tour, his my first two tours were just I was the little hanger on.
00:19:59.570 --> 00:20:02.850
We went basically, and he let me pitch to his fans, right?
00:20:03.010 --> 00:20:04.610
He's like, Here, come on tour with me.
00:20:04.690 --> 00:20:07.890
Uh, you're bring your new book and we'll do a joint signings.
00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:11.090
Just like, you know, a king of a human being, right?
00:20:11.490 --> 00:20:15.810
Um and I knew that I needed to do something like that.
00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:17.810
Like, I can't go on tour with my students.
00:20:17.890 --> 00:20:20.370
Um, my tours are are way more crazy.
00:20:20.530 --> 00:20:25.010
Um, but what I can do is I can be there and get up in front and say, look, I'm a real person.
00:20:25.170 --> 00:20:27.970
I took this class 25 years ago.
00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:30.290
Um, it ended up working.
00:20:30.530 --> 00:20:34.130
Um, it can't work for all of you, but it can work for some of you.
00:20:34.290 --> 00:20:41.490
So I'm gonna try to give you all the tools that were given to me so that you'll have them and hopefully have a leg up if you want to turn this into a career.
00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:50.610
And that's one thing I've learned about like quote giving back is when I was growing up, it was like, oh, well, one day I'll have my name on a building on a campus somewhere or some sort of foundation.
00:20:50.850 --> 00:20:52.290
What I've learned is like it scales.
00:20:52.450 --> 00:20:58.130
Like if people reach out to me and want my time because they want to think through something or need help, I'm more than happy to.
00:20:58.290 --> 00:21:03.090
Um, I mean, with that caveat of like, I need you to do the groundwork before you can't just be like, well, I want to get a job.
00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:03.490
What do you think?
00:21:03.650 --> 00:21:04.370
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:04.450 --> 00:21:06.210
Well, let's think about that a little bit more.
00:21:06.370 --> 00:21:11.170
So I love that you've found a way that you can give back, which also gives back to you in a sense.
00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:23.810
And I want to come back to like the store, like your timeline, because at some point you do something that a lot of authors or very few have done of being like, okay, I have my writing, but now I want to build a business and enterprise on top of it.
00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:26.610
I mean, what inspired that and what made you want to do it?
00:21:26.850 --> 00:21:30.050
So the big key moment that pushed me over the edge.
00:21:30.130 --> 00:21:34.370
So I've always been a bit of an entrepreneur, son of a businessman and accountant, right?
00:21:34.690 --> 00:21:36.610
Um, I'm the artist who was raised by accountant.
00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:38.770
I always say that that's my my superpower.
00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:47.330
Um, but the big tipping point was um my publisher McMillan and Amazon had contract disputes in 2011, I think it was.
00:21:47.490 --> 00:21:54.850
Um, and as a result of those disputes, Amazon turned off the ability to buy McMillan books on Amazon.
00:21:55.170 --> 00:21:57.250
Just a blanket, no McMillan books.
00:21:57.410 --> 00:21:59.170
All my books got turned off for a month.
00:21:59.410 --> 00:22:01.650
Um and you know, that's my livelihood.
00:22:01.730 --> 00:22:06.930
By then, Amazon already was the dominant player, and it's even more so now.
00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:15.730
Um if Amazon decides they don't want to publish you, uh they don't want to pu they don't publish, they don't want to uh sell your books, that will destroy your career.
00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:17.730
Um they, you know.
00:22:18.370 --> 00:22:24.050
I saw that and I realized I want to work for the fans, not for Amazon.
00:22:24.690 --> 00:22:26.290
Uh how can I do that?
00:22:26.530 --> 00:22:34.690
And back then I felt like there was a danger of of books being pushed down to being s essentially free.
00:22:34.850 --> 00:22:37.410
Um that happened to the music industry, right?
00:22:37.570 --> 00:22:45.090
Right now, the music industry is most artists are not making very much money off of the music itself.
00:22:45.170 --> 00:22:47.010
Uh they make money off of touring.
00:22:47.810 --> 00:22:51.490
And uh books, Amazon is trying to get books sold at 99 cents.
00:22:51.570 --> 00:22:53.970
Um and so I thought that might be that might happen to us.
00:22:54.050 --> 00:23:05.650
And so I said said, well, what can I do if my income were cut to zero or by nine-tenths by Amazon taking my ten-dollar books and selling them for a dollar?
00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:12.210
Um and I realized that what we could do is we could create really nice additions, leather bounds.
00:23:12.290 --> 00:23:14.450
I like uh collecting leather bound books.
00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:18.530
And with the direct defans, we might be able to make the leather bounds.
00:23:18.610 --> 00:23:20.210
They used to be really expensive.
00:23:20.450 --> 00:23:24.770
During my day, back in the day before, you know, uh back when before I was published.
00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:29.570
If you wanted a leather leather bound of a nice book, you're you're talking like five, six hundred bucks, right?
00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:34.130
I'm like, can I And make hundred, hundred and fifty dollar versions of these because we can go direct to fans.
00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:55.890
And can this replace sort of the um the touring or the you know the high-end item that if uh the if we get a certain percentage of fans to buy into buying a really nice edition, we'd make them fantastic, so they want to have them and and own them, that kind of subsidizes everything else, and our business then becomes hey, read my books.
00:23:55.970 --> 00:23:57.330
Um and I can be like that.
00:23:57.410 --> 00:24:02.370
I'm like, yeah, if if you know they're on sale for 99 cents, which they sometimes are, buy it.
00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:08.130
Like I'm hoping to get a few of those people to eventually love the book so much that they come by my leather bounds.
00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:13.810
And my whole business is the leather bounds or the uh the the crowdfunding director, the fans.
00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:21.490
Uh I built that up so that if Amazon decided to destroy me, I would have, I would, I would survive.
00:24:21.810 --> 00:24:24.770
Yeah, well, it goes from like putting my business nerd hat on.
00:24:24.850 --> 00:24:34.290
It's like it goes from trying to get people to the core product, using it really as a customer acquisition tool of saying, here's a here's a dollar, get on board for a dollar, right, and I'll get 150 from you in six months.
00:24:34.530 --> 00:24:36.930
Yeah, maybe I'll get 150 from some of you.
00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:39.170
It's um a loss leader, you might say.
00:24:39.250 --> 00:24:39.410
Yeah.
00:24:39.570 --> 00:24:45.010
But as an artist, I feel I I see it differently.
00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:50.610
This is a win for everyone because what an artist wants to do is number one, I want to be read.
00:24:50.770 --> 00:24:52.530
I want people to experience my books.
00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:54.610
I look at it less like customer acquisition.
00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:59.010
I look at it more as in the, hey, this means more people can read my books.
00:24:59.090 --> 00:25:04.610
And the ones who can't afford the really nice editions or don't want them are in a way subsidized by those who can.
00:25:04.770 --> 00:25:09.570
Uh and the people who can who want really nice editions, they get something that they love.
00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:17.090
Like we can, we can give them a fantastic product, um, and I can pay my people well so they don't have to have the qualms about Amazon.
00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:25.330
We can have a customer support team in-house that's just like that's not offshore, it's not AI'd, that you know a person is there just helping you.
00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:36.690
We can give them like luxury quality service, and we can still have the books out there that anyone who wants to read them can grab them from a library or uh or when they're on uh sale and things like that.
00:25:36.850 --> 00:25:41.490
And it won't break my bottom line because everybody wins.
00:25:41.570 --> 00:25:41.810
Yeah.
00:25:42.050 --> 00:25:44.130
Um, and I really like that format.
00:25:44.290 --> 00:25:46.450
I think that format works pretty well.
00:25:46.610 --> 00:25:53.090
Um and fortunately, books didn't go to zero because a lot of my friends that would have destroyed.
00:25:53.250 --> 00:25:58.370
Um, you know, books, I think in the ebook world are generally cheaper than they used to be.
00:25:58.450 --> 00:26:01.250
Yeah, uh, and I think that's just that's good for everyone.
00:26:01.410 --> 00:26:04.130
Um, I do worry about the subscription plans.
00:26:04.290 --> 00:26:07.170
Um, like, you know, the the way that that it went.
00:26:07.490 --> 00:26:08.370
Like the new Spotify style.
00:26:08.770 --> 00:26:09.730
The Spotify style.
00:26:10.130 --> 00:26:10.450
Yeah.
00:26:10.610 --> 00:26:18.370
Um, but regardless, um, we are we're dra this is what positioned Dragon Steel to be successful was selling leather bounds.
00:26:18.530 --> 00:26:22.610
Well, it's like and especially in this collectible market we find ourselves in in today.
00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:30.370
Like, for example, I spent$120 on a really nice leather-bound version of my favorite book, Red Rising by Peter Brown, that I have on my bookshelf.
00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:38.770
Which I like, like it's funny because so I have a rule of threes when it comes to most things, especially books of three people I trust have to recommend it to me before I read it.
00:26:39.010 --> 00:26:41.410
So three of my really good friends, like, hey, you need to read Red Rising.
00:26:41.490 --> 00:26:44.850
And just like most people, I read all six of them in like two months.
00:26:45.010 --> 00:26:53.570
And then, like, as I was finishing that, is when you and him had that event in uh Abercrombie at the um Salt Lake Clubhouse downtown.
00:26:53.730 --> 00:26:55.010
I was like, Are you kidding me?
00:26:55.170 --> 00:27:02.930
And like, unfortunately, I had plans that night where all this was gonna go, but yeah, I I actually did that event and I'm like, it's been too long, and I reread Red Rising.
00:27:03.250 --> 00:27:09.010
So um, I don't have a lot of time to reread books, but Red Rising is one of those books I've read twice now.
00:27:09.250 --> 00:27:11.970
That's I mean, coming from someone who is as busy as you are means a lot.
00:27:12.050 --> 00:27:19.090
Because like I've read it three times and I have much more time than you do, but in the same way, it's like I don't listen to a lot of podcasts because so much of my life is brought up.
00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:20.210
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:27:20.290 --> 00:27:21.010
It's it's tough.
00:27:21.170 --> 00:27:22.770
It is weird how that works, right?
00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:27.090
Like I can end up reading for work kind of.
00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:29.170
Like I just did an event with James Islington.
00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:30.370
So I read his new book.
00:27:30.530 --> 00:27:33.330
Now, I like James Islington, he's a fantastic writer.
00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:41.890
It's not woe is me, I have to do this, but it means that I will end up reading what I need to for events and things like that.
00:27:42.050 --> 00:27:50.930
Um, which there's a lot less reading for fun, even though reading is fun, because it is my job, it means that I, you know, I'm gonna read my students' uh books when they get published.
00:27:51.010 --> 00:27:53.170
I'm gonna read uh people I'm doing events with.
00:27:53.330 --> 00:27:56.850
Like I'm doing an event with John Green in a month, so I'm gonna read John Green's new book.
00:27:57.170 --> 00:27:57.810
So yeah.
00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:10.450
So thinking about, I mean, this new phase of Dragon Steel, I mean, with the Cosmere having rights for I mean series and movies now, how does that creativity differ from what you've been doing before of writing to now?
00:28:10.530 --> 00:28:18.770
It's like, okay, we have to work on a script and casting and screenplay, but also I'm not just by myself writing in that passion.
00:28:19.010 --> 00:28:20.850
I mean, how does that change your perspective on it?
00:28:21.090 --> 00:28:22.930
It does mean that I have to juggle a lot more.
00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:29.170
Um, there's there's a lot to, you know, I'm glad I've learned good time management in the past.
00:28:29.410 --> 00:28:30.290
I'll just say that.
00:28:30.370 --> 00:28:32.050
Uh, because there's a lot more to juggle.
00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:38.690
But what I've found after 20 years of trying to get Mistborn made is uh it's the Thanos thing, right?
00:28:38.770 --> 00:28:40.850
Like, fine, I need I'll do it myself.
00:28:41.010 --> 00:28:51.010
Um after 20 years of, you know, it not working, despite the efforts of some very talented people, um, it puts me in a position where I'm like, well, I know this story best.
00:28:51.170 --> 00:28:53.730
Uh I've spent the last 10 years teaching myself screenwriting.
00:28:53.810 --> 00:28:55.250
This is my sixth screenplay.
00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:58.770
So that was the real time investment, is I had to learn to write screenplays.
00:28:59.010 --> 00:29:00.370
Because you had to do five before the six one.
00:29:00.770 --> 00:29:01.010
Uh-huh.
00:29:01.090 --> 00:29:01.730
I did the same thing.
00:29:01.810 --> 00:29:02.850
I said I'm going to write five.
00:29:02.930 --> 00:29:04.450
So I wrote five screenplays.
00:29:04.610 --> 00:29:07.170
Um just, you know, the same, same.
00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:08.850
I figured it would work, and it did.
00:29:08.930 --> 00:29:12.290
Uh, and actually, I'm a I'm a little better writer than then.
00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.850
So uh only the first couple fell apart.
00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:22.770
Um, screenplays four, five, and five are both really solid, um, as well as as Mistborn, which is screenplay number six.
00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.250
Um, and so um, yeah, that took a long time.
00:29:27.570 --> 00:29:30.610
But I'm there now so that I can write these screenplays.
00:29:30.850 --> 00:29:35.090
And I I have a meeting with uh with uh the producers after this.
00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:35.730
It's my next thing.
00:29:35.970 --> 00:29:36.450
That's exciting.
00:29:36.690 --> 00:29:39.970
I'll be able to chat with them about uh about what they thought of the draft of the screenplay.
00:29:40.370 --> 00:29:44.370
And then one question and then one set of rapid fire questions.
00:29:44.690 --> 00:29:45.570
Why Utah?
00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:47.570
Like you're someone who could be anywhere.
00:29:47.810 --> 00:29:52.450
And I know BYU plays a part in it, faith plays a part in it, but I mean, does this place inspire you?
00:29:52.610 --> 00:29:53.890
Does it just where you like to be?
00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:56.050
I mean, talk to me about this that plays a role in your life.
00:29:56.370 --> 00:30:02.690
So I love Nebraska, but Nebraska is a great place to live because of the people, not because of the scenery.
00:30:02.930 --> 00:30:04.530
Um, you mentioned the corn.
00:30:04.610 --> 00:30:09.890
I lived in Lincoln, so I was in an urban area, but I mean felt very isolated.
00:30:09.970 --> 00:30:12.610
And even in Lincoln, I had a cornfield in my backyard.
00:30:12.690 --> 00:30:12.770
Yeah.
00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:14.610
Because I was on the outskirts of the city.
00:30:14.850 --> 00:30:18.130
Um, I felt like the weather is pretty dreadful.
00:30:18.370 --> 00:30:23.410
There's not there, there are some beautiful vistas, but they're very repetitive.
00:30:23.570 --> 00:30:23.810
Yeah.
00:30:24.050 --> 00:30:27.170
And uh while I I think Nebraska was a great place to grow up.
00:30:27.250 --> 00:30:35.090
When I moved to Utah and I saw the mountains, and then we went to southern Utah and I saw the slot canyons and Zion and these things.
00:30:35.170 --> 00:30:38.770
I'm like, oh, this is great.
00:30:38.930 --> 00:30:41.890
Yeah, I really like the visuals here.
00:30:42.210 --> 00:30:52.290
Um and uh the Stormlight Archive is based off of my trips to southern Utah and the vistas there um and the slot canyons and all that, the shattered plains came from that.
00:30:52.530 --> 00:30:56.850
And um, I just I really fell in love with the scenery um and things like that.
00:30:57.010 --> 00:30:59.090
And then the other big pillar is family.
00:30:59.330 --> 00:31:03.410
My wife's family's here, my family's in Idaho, a bunch of my siblings are down here.
00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:06.450
So settling in Utah made a lot of sense.
00:31:06.610 --> 00:31:10.210
Salt Lake is a Delta hub, it's really easy to get a lot of places.
00:31:10.370 --> 00:31:14.370
We got direct flights to Europe, we got direct flights to Japan.
00:31:14.530 --> 00:31:20.450
Um, like you can get where you need to go uh pretty easily from Salt Lake.
00:31:20.690 --> 00:31:25.010
That was that's really easy as a person who needs to travel the world and whatnot.
00:31:25.250 --> 00:31:30.770
And the scenery is great, uh, people are nice, uh, but it's really family is the other pillar on that.
00:31:31.010 --> 00:31:31.170
Yeah.
00:31:31.330 --> 00:31:38.690
Well, and even it's especially in this like little area of American fork you live in where there's so many creative people that no one would ever like guess.
00:31:38.770 --> 00:31:39.890
Like I brought up Howard Lyon.
00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:42.610
Yeah, we have Mark uh Mark Bryan Taylor, we have John Darley.
00:31:42.850 --> 00:31:44.770
Oh, I can't think of uh sculptor friend.
00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:52.450
Yeah, um but it's like that each of them knows four or five other people that I don't know personally, so it's wild that you all kind of found this very specific place.
00:31:52.530 --> 00:31:53.010
It's beautiful.
00:31:53.090 --> 00:31:54.370
I mean, right at the foot of the mountains.
00:31:54.770 --> 00:31:57.330
Well, Brandon, before we end, I want to ask you a couple quick questions.
00:31:57.570 --> 00:31:58.130
Rapid fire.
00:31:58.370 --> 00:31:58.930
Rapid fire.
00:31:59.170 --> 00:32:04.290
Um, number one, what's your favorite author that you've read or been reading right now?
00:32:04.610 --> 00:32:10.770
Um uh so I'll just name James Islington because I just finished uh his book, uh, his new book, Scion.
00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:12.850
Um he's a great fantasy writer.
00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:15.250
If people like my books, they will like James Islington.
00:32:15.410 --> 00:32:15.570
Yeah.
00:32:15.730 --> 00:32:18.210
Any up-and-coming authors that people should pay attention to?
00:32:18.450 --> 00:32:23.490
Uh well, my my good friend Rachel Buchanan, who's one of my former students and is still my TA.
00:32:23.650 --> 00:32:29.810
She's uh she published her first book a couple of years ago, uh, and she just uh got a new book deal for for several more.
00:32:29.890 --> 00:32:31.570
So Rachel's an up-and-comer.
00:32:31.650 --> 00:32:32.930
Um so amazing.
00:32:33.090 --> 00:32:33.410
Love it.
00:32:33.810 --> 00:32:36.850
Uh, what do you think is the most underrated Sanderson book?
00:32:37.330 --> 00:32:39.250
Uh I don't get to decide that.
00:32:39.490 --> 00:32:42.130
That's that's for the fans to decide.
00:32:42.290 --> 00:32:44.610
Um I love all of my children equally.
00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:45.810
I like all of my books.
00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:47.730
I don't know that any are underrated.
00:32:47.810 --> 00:32:51.010
Like that's the community gets to decide how they feel about them.
00:32:51.330 --> 00:32:52.210
I like that answer.
00:32:52.770 --> 00:32:58.690
Um and if someone is new to Brandon Sanderson and looking to jump in, what book do you think they should start with?
00:32:58.850 --> 00:33:00.530
Uh I generally recommend Mistborn.
00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:00.850
Okay.
00:33:01.090 --> 00:33:03.330
Um uh but it really depends.
00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:05.730
If you want action adventure, it's Mistborn.
00:33:05.810 --> 00:33:14.130
If you want something that uh it feels a little more whimsical, uh a little more cozy, uh Tress of the Emerald Sea is the other big starter point right now.
00:33:14.210 --> 00:33:15.650
It feels a little like Princess Bride.
00:33:15.730 --> 00:33:18.370
If you like Princess Bride, you'll probably like Tress of the Emerald Sea.
00:33:18.530 --> 00:33:18.930
Got it.
00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:21.330
And in general, what are you most excited about right now?
00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:22.130
What's motivating you?
00:33:22.290 --> 00:33:23.810
Uh what am I most excited by?
00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:27.090
I mean, I'm really chomping at the bit to get to Stormlight Six.
00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:30.290
Uh, but I've got Mistborn books to finish first, and I'm enjoying those.
00:33:30.530 --> 00:33:30.770
Yeah.
00:33:30.850 --> 00:33:31.650
No, I love that.
00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:40.930
And then one last question that I always ask every guest at the end of each interview is uh if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about them, their story, and what they're up to, who would you want to hear from?
00:33:41.090 --> 00:33:42.690
Um, so they have do they have to be somebody local?
00:33:42.850 --> 00:33:44.290
Yeah, somewhere Utah, Salt Lake.
00:33:44.690 --> 00:33:46.050
Somewhere Utah, Salt Lake.
00:33:46.130 --> 00:33:47.410
Who would I want to have on?
00:33:47.650 --> 00:33:48.850
Uh I don't know.
00:33:49.090 --> 00:33:53.330
Like I generally get to talk to every everybody I want to.
00:33:53.570 --> 00:33:58.370
Um anybody with an interesting story, unique background, doing something cool that most people don't know about.
00:33:58.850 --> 00:34:05.490
Interesting background doing um have you had um uh have you had um Holdman on?
00:34:05.650 --> 00:34:06.690
Uh Tim Holdman.
00:34:06.930 --> 00:34:10.449
He's the the um the stained glass window guy.
00:34:11.010 --> 00:34:21.329
Um and he's like top in the world, like you know, top few people in the world for stained glass window, which makes sense to be in Utah because of all the temples.
00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:24.369
He does a lot of the the temple work, but he did my stained glass windows.
00:34:24.449 --> 00:34:35.090
Um he did uh just some the gorgeous one that was at UVU and the one at the uh the the Oram City Library, like just the whole team there is fantastic.
00:34:35.250 --> 00:34:38.130
So Holdman Studio, you should go get Tim Holdman on.
00:34:38.289 --> 00:34:40.610
Amazing, well do well Brandon, thank you so much for the time.
00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:41.650
Keep crushing it.
00:34:41.809 --> 00:34:45.729
Excited to watch everything, read everything, and see what you continue to do.
00:34:46.049 --> 00:34:46.529
Awesome.
00:34:46.769 --> 00:34:47.169
Thank you.
00:34:47.329 --> 00:34:47.649
Thank you.