Full Transcript for Why AI Can't Write Good Content Alone

00:04:14.26 Andrew No. 00:04:14.69 Sean I haven't looked into it. I have to look into it. Um... um I don't know, man. I think like... it was ah blackout was good we had a lot of really cool booths we did like this greek statue thing at this well as well as this like Music synth. uh thing we made like a vibe coders macro pad keyboard um i don't have any on me because i give them all away Um, 00:04:43.09 Sean But. 00:04:43.19 Andrew When you say a vibe coder's macro pad keyword, board. 00:04:46.44 Sean Keyboard. 00:04:46.100 Andrew Can you... 00:04:46.100 Sean keyboard yeah 00:04:47.87 Andrew Can you tell me what that means? 00:04:49.56 Sean Okay, okay, so so it looks... 00:04:51.14 Andrew Is this ah an EDM thing? 00:04:53.38 Sean No, it's a it looks like It looks like this. Okay. This part is just the Greek statue of a like Greek statue guy laying on his stomach with his feet up. typing on a computer and then the actual part That's... 00:05:06.34 Sean the the keyboard is four small keys at the top to like shift key size keys one to use and two use um and each one 00:05:14.85 Andrew huh 00:05:16.60 Sean it like does something so one will launch claude another will open up the you know the the client's website another will be a copy button and a paste button. Cause the joke is like with. with like AI, what do you, how many, Yeah, what do you need? 00:05:27.68 Andrew I've got a need. 00:05:29.06 Sean You need a copy and a paste and like accept all, for you know, accept all things. uh one will you know put on yeah 00:05:35.00 Andrew Turn on my mic. 00:05:36.37 Sean Exactly. exactly um Yeah, and that's that's basically... that's basically what it is um um But it's reprogrammable and like... 00:05:46.51 Sean uh people at defcon got their hands on and like one guy like immediately just like turned all of them into like auto hacking things like literally like 00:05:53.57 Andrew ahha 00:05:54.49 Sean push this button, get a vom, which is pretty cool. 00:05:56.79 Andrew I know. 00:05:57.80 Sean um Um... Yeah, and... and ah 00:06:03.27 Andrew Give me a sense of scale here. How many... clients active clients do you all have at blackhat defcon at this point and like how many how many booths did you were you all responsible for 00:06:15.68 Sean So I um I think number of booths. Probably not. that many i feel like Four, five, six. Possibly so under 10, more than five. 00:06:27.06 Sean um but i don't actually remember 00:06:27.28 Andrew Mm-hmm. 00:06:29.63 Sean um Because, because like like, yeah, there's memorable ones that go off to all the way to the last minute, and then there's other ones that just, like... 00:06:29.69 Andrew Okay. 00:06:36.54 Sean We clear and then we're good to go. Um... In terms of like how many clients we have at Black Hat. I don't know. I have to do the... the number but I have to. Like... 00:06:49.33 Sean I feel like saying 5 % is too many. But it it does feel like. 00:06:53.92 Andrew 5 % of like the company is at DEF CON or at Black Hat. 00:06:57.26 Sean I have black hat. But I feel like that's like an overestimation, right? Maybe it's actually like 1 % or something like that. 00:07:04.59 Andrew i'm 00:07:04.45 Sean I will do the math after this now. Um, 00:07:07.52 Andrew I was joking with my friend Rami yesterday that like you're the miscreant slack is slowly becoming like. A back channel to every. Like... 00:07:17.64 Sean Yeah. 00:07:17.56 Andrew cybersecurity startup out there because like everyone eventually ends up in your slack and then even if you all stop working together most of the time that you're still in your slack and so um yeah I was like, I wonder how... 00:07:30.68 Andrew many people. like influential people in security I can reach just from the mystery and slack. 00:07:36.03 Sean You can reach every single almost every single like security influencer probably from the mystery in slack or or in some way, shape, or form. you can you can you can text every single security influencer in the space. through a separate miscreants tool. 00:07:53.28 Sean uh oh sorry through a mystery it's parted full um thing but Um... Yeah. Yeah. yeah 00:08:02.06 Andrew You all haven't gotten into events yet, have you? 00:08:02.18 Sean um 00:08:04.08 Andrew You're not like trying to like run events for people? 00:08:05.21 Sean Yeah, we We don't we run some events for people we have we've always like 00:08:09.51 Andrew Jesus Christ. 00:08:10.31 Sean end up running like one or to two random ones throughout the year for people but more importantly we run our own so like 00:08:14.71 Andrew Not like black at parties. 00:08:17.49 Sean Uh... we have ran we have ran parties and we also have ran like full-on like single day conferences Um... 00:08:26.22 Andrew Damn. 00:08:26.88 Sean with people uh virtual ones virtual ones we haven't run like a in-person one by ourselves before but usually the companies that can run an in-person one have people on staff 00:08:29.98 Andrew Hm? 00:08:32.64 Andrew Mm hmm. 00:08:36.32 Sean to do it and we're supporting it with graphics and whatever but 00:08:40.16 Andrew Mm-hmm. 00:08:40.62 Sean Um... i mean we you know we're actively involved with a couple of random black hat like mini side conference things. And then we also host a mystery and Korean barbecue dinner. 00:08:51.53 Andrew Mm-hmm 00:08:51.47 Sean Um, every year with its like 100 people that's usually like the highlight of Uh, the week. um you know it's all its just people like it's it's a small number of clients that we like but it's largely like creators and whatnot that all get together in the same room um it's like the 00:09:06.80 Andrew Did I technically? 00:09:07.03 Sean Yep. 00:09:08.40 Andrew i've been to that 00:09:09.79 Sean I think so. 00:09:10.01 Andrew i We went. before it was like officially a miscreants thing I think yeah it was just like 00:09:14.11 Sean Yeah. Yeah. 00:09:16.95 Andrew I was... Ed. 00:09:18.96 Sean

Yeah. 00:09:18.79 Andrew yeah black hat defcon one year and like Andrew Morris and like the sublime guys and like some people. 00:09:21.89 Sean Yeah. 00:09:25.24 Andrew I don't know if the sublime guys were there. I can't remember, but like. 00:09:27.16 Sean i don't 00:09:27.91 Andrew Uh... the Your friend's from... um What's the... Excel. No. Not Excel. they What's the... 00:09:35.42 Sean Expel. 00:09:36.57 Andrew Expel? the company that has the the logo that looks exactly like Microsoft Excel. 00:09:41.00 Sean Oh, yeah. Expel. Expel. 00:09:42.49 Andrew Thanks. 00:09:42.89 Sean Yeah. 00:09:42.91 Andrew Okay. um Yes, in terms of years from Expel, we're there and we went. 00:09:44.59 Sean You have it was 00:09:47.62 Andrew and a korean barbecue and it 00:09:49.19 Sean Yeah. 00:09:49.35 Andrew Slap. 00:09:50.25 Sean yeah yeah that was uh yeah that was way smaller this we bought out the entire restaurant 00:09:53.88 Andrew Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was like eight people. It was like. eight or 12 people, something like that. 00:09:58.15 Sean Yeah. Yeah, we bought out the entire restaurant this time. um 00:10:01.79 Andrew That's super fun. 00:10:02.03 Sean um, incredibly affordable by the way to do that but i have now that we've done it openmune 00:10:05.96 Andrew It's also like so nice to get off the strip for a second, like and like go do something away from the absolute madness. 00:10:13.05 Sean Yeah. 100%. 100%. um Yeah, I mean... It was really fun. Um, i now know the owner so now we're like best friends um 00:10:22.39 Andrew Hell yeah. 00:10:23.40 Sean um There was also the Star Trek convention coming out at the same time. 00:10:24.93 Andrew Are you just like book? We want to book this these same dates for the next five years. 00:10:29.78 Sean Pretty much, yeah. 00:10:30.85 Andrew Yeah. 00:10:31.72 Sean I was like, you know where it is every single year. So get ready. He's like, great. Love it. um there was also the star trek convention going on and a friend of mine is like helping with. 00:10:42.00 Andrew That's so much fun. 00:10:43.35 Sean Some of it are you a Star Trek fan? 00:10:45.39 Andrew No. 00:10:45.97 Sean Oh. 00:10:45.92 Andrew But... 00:10:46.43 Sean Okay. 00:10:46.57 Andrew I mean, i I'm not not a fan, but I'm like... I'm not a Trekkie. I'm not like... 00:10:50.92 Sean Yeah. 00:10:51.81 Andrew Um, I don't think I've ever watched a complete season of Star Trek. I appreciate it for... 00:10:56.35 Sean cashal 00:10:58.40 Andrew What it is? And like. 00:10:59.66 Sean Oh. 00:11:00.52 Andrew think it is very good television that has a lot more depth than it gets credit for and all that But. 00:11:05.44 Sean For sure. Um, Oh, I'm not... 00:11:06.50 Andrew um But yeah, i but I'm not a Trekkie. 00:11:07.96 Sean on I'm an honorary Trekkie now because I ended up. helping with planning a star trek meet and greet that almost happened at the same restaurant because because ah they needed a space, but yeah it got moved to a suite. Um, 00:11:22.69 Sean um and it was good uh defcon we we did better than we did last year we always have a merge Stan for those who don't know um ah we We always do like a little bit. better than the previous one we sold out as always Um... 00:11:35.35 Andrew Yeah. 00:11:36.65 Sean And yeah. I think. We saw that of the first style within like the first couple of hours of. DEF CON news. 00:11:43.69 Andrew sick 00:11:44.40 Sean Yeah. And that was, I think we printed extra for it too. which was pretty crazy. 00:11:47.15 Andrew Yeah. You all didn't do the official shirts this year, did you? 00:11:50.95 Sean We always do the like approved officially by DEF CON has the DEF CON name on there But not like we don't do it for DEF CON's merch 00:11:55.10 Andrew oh 00:11:59.57 Sean like their own. 00:11:59.54 Andrew Didn't you do it one year? 00:12:00.41 Sean earth thing 00:12:00.55 Andrew Didn't you do it one year for 00:12:02.69 Sean No. 00:12:02.46 Andrew they're like the 00:12:04.40 Sean No, not for DEF CON. 00:12:05.02 Andrew No. 00:12:05.64 Sean I think it got conflated because DEF CON that year did silhouettes of hackers and we also put hackers on ours. It was for DEF CON 30. 00:12:12.94 Andrew and 00:12:13.95 Sean But ours was also officially approved by DEF CON to print those. um 00:12:18.53 Andrew Gotcha. 00:12:19.86 Sean So it was really, it was like. Like... very It was very... ah synonymous, I guess. but 00:12:27.15 Andrew also like hey guys you could have given us a heads up that you were doing the same design and maybe we would have 00:12:32.80 Sean Talk. 00:12:32.48 Andrew done something different. I don't know. 00:12:34.91 Sean i mean I was fine with it. i 00:12:36.51 Andrew it 00:12:36.48 Sean i was happy like it it probably drove more sales for us anyway it so i'll take it Um... 00:12:41.71 Andrew There. Also, I'm guessing yours were probably better anyway. 00:12:46.37 Sean ah Can't say that I'm not gonna put that on the record i i will I will put on the record that if you I found out today if you go on eBay, you can see people reselling some Mysterian shirts, which is pretty cool. 00:12:50.66 Andrew Yeah. 00:12:56.72 Andrew No way, really? 00:12:58.01 Sean Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty cool. 00:12:59.45 Andrew It's wild. 00:12:59.84 Sean um um especially the actually the defcon 31 is being resold for more money than it cost so 00:13:07.02 Andrew Will you say the number of shirts that you sold this year? 00:13:10.85 Sean Uh, Over 1 ,500. Shirts. 00:13:13.95 Andrew Okay. 00:13:14.85 Sean Yeah. 00:13:15.17 Andrew Okay. 00:13:16.35 Sean Or about 1 ,500 shirts, I think. 00:13:16.14 Andrew Cool. 00:13:18.34 Sean Peace. 00:13:18.85 Andrew Yeah. 00:13:19.36 Sean yeah Anyways, hello. 00:13:19.98 Andrew Cool. 00:13:21.08 Sean Like. Yeah. That was it. That was... um How about you? How have you been? what what do you What did you get up to in the past? month or three months that we

didn't Record a podcast. 00:13:32.49 Andrew exists. Uh... I've been getting up to lots of stuff. I'm applying for Mexican residency, so I'm trying to... I've i've done the application process and I'm just like waiting. 00:13:43.87 Andrew waiting to hear back to be like you're approved come back, get your, pick up your card. 00:13:48.54 Sean Mm hmm. 00:13:48.76 Andrew um I... Uh, I had a crazy adventure with my girlfriend ah like a couple weeks ago where we took her Vespa to a waterfall um outside of the town where she lives. 00:14:02.56 Sean Wow. 00:14:02.76 Andrew um But... ah We thought it was going to take us like an hour to get there. It took us two and a half hours to get there. um And, like... dirt roads, crazy potholes. like super steep mountain roads and stuff um on a Vespa with two people and me driving the Vespa for the first time in my whole life. 00:14:22.43 Andrew Um... 00:14:22.35 Sean It was... Is the Vespa okay? 00:14:25.44 Andrew Best was great. Best was fine as far as I know. 00:14:26.46 Sean Nice. 00:14:27.78 Andrew um it It handled everything like a champ. Very impressed. 00:14:31.45 Sean Get commercial. 00:14:31.41 Andrew Um, Very fun to drive. ah It poured rain on us, like thunder, lightning. 00:14:38.43 Sean ah wow 00:14:38.13 Andrew downpour on the way back. I was afraid for my life several times. but All good. Everything was great. 00:14:44.31 Sean Did you, were you driving or? 00:14:44.76 Andrew Yeah. 00:14:46.63 Sean She's right. 00:14:46.64 Andrew I drove on the way there. She drove on the way back because she is by far the better driver and it was about to rain. 00:14:48.73 Sean Okay. Amen. 00:14:51.45 Andrew So we were like, you should drive. You should definitely drive. 00:14:54.18 Sean Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. I was going to say, cause like. Like if it's raining and you wear glasses You don't have many people. 00:15:00.32 Andrew Oh, I had a helmet on with a visor. 00:15:01.80 Sean Wow. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. All right, fine. 00:15:04.90 Andrew Yeah. Yeah. Um, 00:15:08.47 Sean Sorry, go ahead. 00:15:09.74 Andrew But it was funny. I was thinking like, I was like, I wonder why motorcycle helmets don't have like windshield wipers. 00:15:14.92 Sean Mm-hmm. 00:15:17.79 Sean Wow. 00:15:17.77 Andrew Um... and There's probably some motorcycle helmet out there that that does. 00:15:22.51 Sean well our dirt rally ones have um 00:15:22.98 Andrew Um, 00:15:25.57 Sean have like thin pieces of plastic that you peel. because you can't wipe it fast enough so the mud gets on it and you just keep peeling them off as you're driving And that's the fastest way to get clear vision the entire time. 00:15:31.04 Andrew Oh... Whoa. whoa 00:15:37.14 Sean It's pretty cool. 00:15:38.55 Andrew That's crazy. 00:15:39.60 Sean Yeah. 00:15:39.69 Andrew I didn't know about that. 00:15:40.84 Sean yeah 00:15:40.76 Andrew that's wild Um, Uh... But yeah, other than that, just I like we're in a season of. trying to work as hard as we can to get Metamonster out of the Trough of Sorrow and into... 00:15:56.62 Andrew Into the. you know you know, constantly searching for product market fit, trying to. tweak our positioning, better understand our market. Um, 00:16:07.28 Andrew we We added a couple of customers last month. I think we're on track to add one or two this month. Um, ah So we're up to... Still tiny numbers. It depresses me when I think about it too hard. We're at eight customers, about 800. 00:16:23.92 Andrew dollars in monthly recurring revenue. So like hoping to get over the 10 customer thousand dollar mark this this month. Um, And. ah Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about... like some positioning stuff we've been thinking a lot about positioning um And. trying to hone in on our icp and make sure we really understand the problem and like 00:16:46.61 Sean Yeah. 00:16:46.53 Andrew validate if they're problem aware. um so A couple of things we're thinking about. one Um, So I was feeling pretty discouraged. I was like, I don't know if if there's really enough there there if we're if we're Like maybe... after two years we need to like move on to something else. 00:17:05.49 Andrew Um, Um, And then. I, um You know. uh a good friend recommended we reread some jason cohen articles about like icp and and problem um And... 00:17:23.26 Andrew Um, he has this great blog post with this incredible flowchart that's like Is there, excuse me, is there a problem? I think is the name of the blog post. but really what the blog post is about is like just having a problem to solve is not enough you need to have a problem that is experienced by enough people. is felt. 00:17:42.99 Andrew That like those people actively want to solve that they they're willing to pay you to solve it like it's this whole checklist of like Hey. If this, then this. If this, then this. 00:17:52.26 Sean Yeah. 00:17:52.38 Andrew Really amazing flowchart. Great blog post. um And then ah we were also rereading the iterative hypothesis. um method which is basically says like hey Here's all the things you need. to like figure out to like make. 00:18:07.94 Andrew a business work. Um. but you shouldn't just go in with like questions. It's best to like so actively state your hypothesis because then. it's easier to go, okay, did that. Affirm or... 00:18:20.12 Andrew Bye. 00:18:21.15 Sean Hmm. 00:18:21.05 Andrew disprove this hypothesis. Like it's easier when you have a concrete statement in mind. to like be more objective about the thing. Um, And as we were reading all this and thinking about this one. 00:18:33.48 Andrew I realized we had drifted. and And I just, I do this every fucking time. It drives me crazy. But we had drifted away from. focusing on ICP. And problem? 00:18:45.52 Andrew to thinking about solution. we were We had become, once again, a solution in search of a problem instead of... Yo. focusing on who do we want to serve? What problems do

they have? How do we solve those? 00:18:58.24 Andrew Um. And I mean, this is just the classic thing that every developer, every engineer does of like. I built this cool thing. It's cool. Why aren't people buying it? And it's like, well, they aren't buying it because you aren't. 00:19:10.94 Andrew you don't understand the their problems their workflows well enough and you're not you're not kind of communicating 00:19:17.69 Sean right 00:19:18.02 Andrew um And part of this is because... you know you know i had done the work earlier this year with jade where i basically went and interned for jade to like understand her problems more but we had started to move away from like we we weren't having a whole lot of luck selling to SEOs. So we were starting to move away from SEOs. and like looking for a new audience. 00:19:38.27 Andrew And in that process, as we moved away, instead of like being laser focused on the audience and problems, we started focusing on the solution again and being like. We've got this tool. Who can we sell this tool to? Instead of like... 00:19:50.07 Andrew Instead of like, okay. Who are the people we want to serve? What problems do they have? Does our tool solve those problems? So. That's been on my mind. Um... And so. 00:20:02.57 Andrew We started... yeah Laying out our hypotheses. um We've been focused. We've been trying to focus on. web designs We've actually been getting the most. traction amongst web designers. 00:20:14.60 Andrew um You're our very first customer. 00:20:17.06 Sean he yeah 00:20:17.45 Andrew You're a web design agency. um You're a bunch of other things too, but you're like first and foremost a web design agency. um And... um so we've been getting more traction on web designers so we started to hone in on web designers um And. 00:20:34.05 Andrew um adjust our update, our homepage, et cetera, hypotheses. um We're going to a conference next week, a WordCamp. um a big WordPress conference that happens in the US every year. 00:20:48.56 Andrew in Phoenix, Arizona, and we're going. to talk to WordPress. developers, WordPress designers. Amen. to to talk to them. 00:20:56.09 Sean doing that with you. Do you want to go to Webflow? Conf. conf it right after. 00:21:00.26 Andrew It's fucking expensive, dude. 00:21:03.16 Sean Not. For us, I can get you a ticket. 00:21:07.100 Andrew Okay, let's talk offline. 00:21:09.31 Sean okay cool 00:21:10.30 Andrew quite what What are the dates? 00:21:12.42 Sean um 00:21:14.92 Andrew September. 00:21:15.93 Sean September, I think beginning of September. 00:21:17.93 Andrew Okay. 00:21:18.88 Sean It's in Boston. 00:21:19.35 Andrew Lit. 00:21:20.03 Sean i can't i would none of us can go so ah Yeah. 00:21:25.05 Andrew Okay. Let's talk offline, possibly. 00:21:27.21 Sean Okay. 00:21:27.17 Andrew Possibly, possibly. We still don't have a Webflow integration, so. 00:21:28.22 Sean Okay. 00:21:30.51 Andrew Um, 00:21:31.87 Sean Stop it coming soon on that 00:21:31.83 Andrew Yeah. 00:21:33.61 Sean Give it back. 00:21:33.74 Andrew Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, But anyway. that's why we picked word camp by the way is like we have a wordpress plugin so it's like okay cool we can at least we won't have that objection to deal with As we're talking to people. 00:21:40.50 Sean Yeah. 00:21:46.83 Sean right 00:21:47.39 Andrew Um. Uh, So I've been thinking about like problem solution, who we want to solve. solve things for you. um And then one day I was like, all right, I'm going to. 00:21:58.32 Andrew We have competitors who are successful. 00:22:00.88 Sean Yeah. 00:22:00.79 Andrew Why are they successful? And I was like, instead of just looking at them and looking at the solution. Let me look at them from like an ICP problem. wins. 00:22:09.17 Sean Nice. 00:22:09.24 Andrew and and try to figure out like who are they selling to and what are the value props they're selling like what is the the job to be done for these different products Um, And so I had Claude analyze their marketing websites and their reviews and be like, Claude, tell me who their ICP is. 00:22:24.32 Sean Sick. 00:22:27.29 Andrew And like their value props. Dude, so fucking useful. Like it did. 00:22:32.59 Sean Yeah. 00:22:32.85 Andrew such a good job and like put their ICP so succinctly. And the thing that was really encouraging was. It is the same ICP we've been hovering around trying to hone in on. 00:22:43.86 Andrew um Owner operators. of of um Marketing. seo and web design agencies with one to ten people like that is the icp for like for like several of these products that. Adaptify. 00:22:59.99 Andrew Search Atlas. Um. phrase and surfer get a little nuttier but still that is a huge part of their icp you know they're both bigger companies with like a broader icp at this point but like that is still like a huge portion of their of their audience, of their customer base. 00:23:16.32 Andrew Um, And. But the one thing that was really interesting. Was it? It highlighted that they specifically sell to people who resell SEO services, resellers. 00:23:28.99 Andrew um Whereas we've been focused more on like practitioners, like people doing SEO or like trying to convince web designers. to do SEO or something like that. So that that's something interesting. 00:23:38.68 Sean no 00:23:41.03 Andrew And we're trying to figure out like, okay, do we want to sell to resellers? Do we? Like. How do we feel about that market? Um... all of this but Um, 00:23:52.92 Andrew But yeah, it was really encouraging to me. It was like, okay. There is a successful path here. Um. they you know, to sell. an SEO tool to this market and like adaptify. Search Atlas are new tools. 00:24:08.45 Andrew you know, freeze and surfer maybe coasting on. The incumbents. But these are new tools that have managed to make this work in the last couple of years. 00:24:17.55 Sean Yeah. 00:24:17.70 Andrew Um. And so it's like, okay. i think there is a path here. 00:24:22.36

Sean Yeah. 00:24:22.42 Andrew for us to find What we need to figure out is like... What is our differentiator? in this. in this space like how do we what is our wedge how do we differentiate from these tools um And. 00:24:38.11 Andrew Do enough people resonate with that differentiator? Two. for us and can we like reach enough of those people. to like build a viable business. 00:24:46.84 Sean Yeah. 00:24:47.06 Andrew um And they're like... Differentiator. that we're like hovering around trying to like clarify right now is essentially quality. It's like. Adaptify and Search Atlas are both You know, Dee's like... 00:25:01.18 Andrew Put your SEO on autopilot. Just like. Push button and get SEO. You know, we do everything for you And we've always tried to be more on the done with you rather than the done for you. side of things. 00:25:14.60 Andrew And so... Yeah, the question mark. to me is like can we make a compelling argument that like doing SEO with MetaMonster will result in higher quality outputs. 00:25:27.24 Andrew Are there enough people who care about that? And, like... Yo. Okay. Can we convince people it's higher quality? Are there people who want higher quality? and don't just want done. 00:25:39.81 Andrew push button done for me or does everyone just want push button done for me um In which case we have to decide, are we willing to try to build in that direction? Or do we... Um... 00:25:50.76 Andrew Or is it just like... Not for us. 00:25:53.00 Sean I think so. I think that like... Agencies So like I think agencies carry like the burden of being like. risk. 00:26:03.77 Sean Or the burden of risk, right? I think like... 00:26:05.98 Andrew Mm hmm. 00:26:07.04 Sean As an agency, I care more about having a human over the loop because. Um, I can't have my clients say get clapped. 00:26:15.50 Andrew Mm-hmm. 00:26:15.55 Sean um as the seo say whereas if you are a business owner you'll try anything and i think there's plenty of like like horror stories of business owners talking about how their SEO agency or. 00:26:25.74 Sean ah the tool that they use or whatever, especially in this like AI auto blogging era. has like completely ruined. their website. and and whatever now whether or not that's true or whatever who knows right but like um Like that is. ah ah Like. i mean Sorry, there's definitely moments. the plenty of times where that's been true. And I think that. is where Um... 00:26:51.79 Sean Like. That that's one angle. Um, in my brain of like like I care about quality because quality will... like The thing that will never get clapped is the quality. 00:27:05.54 Sean is if If you're... like No matter what. Your website will not get clapped if it's... Lord. yeah if it's good If it genuinely is useful and good, yeah. 00:27:14.15 Andrew If it's full of good content. 00:27:16.48 Sean um 00:27:16.53 Andrew Yes. 00:27:17.51 Sean And end. And I think that is. Um... Yeah, that like that is an angle to possibly take, especially.

If everyone else is on that like auto blogging train. 00:27:30.37 Sean Um... 00:27:32.99 Andrew Yeah, I think we've just got to figure out like how to... 00:27:33.20 Sean And I think that makes sense. 00:27:36.17 Andrew how to communicate it succinctly. like Because everyone says, like... way. Like... we create quality stuff and like. 00:27:44.66 Sean Yeah. 00:27:45.85 Andrew everyone says like oh yeah it sounds great it sounds like human wrote it it's great it's great it's great But like, how do we? 00:27:49.53 Sean Yeah. 00:27:51.78 Andrew Like. How do we provide proof? how do we how do we and how do we communicate it succinctly in a way that like higher like gets at that that feeling of risk of like, okay, this is a tool I can trust. 00:28:03.18 Sean Yeah. 00:28:03.19 Andrew This is a tool. It isn't going to tank my... my client sites. 00:28:07.60 Sean Yeah. 00:28:07.55 Andrew Um, End. Maybe it's a little bit more work, but I am willing to do that extra bit of work if it means that I can like trust this thing and it's like 00:28:16.82 Sean Yeah. 00:28:17.91 Andrew Yeah. 00:28:18.61 Sean Yeah. 00:28:18.78 Andrew Um, So. that's That's kind of... 00:28:22.01 Andrew right now it feels very fuzzy like that's the general direction and like phrase and surfer i feel like are kind of like quality in a different like maybe they're not doing pure auto blogging although They are doing some of it. But also just the stuff they generate just sounds like. crap. It's like that keyword riddled bullshit. 00:28:40.39 Andrew Um, 00:28:42.03 Sean wow 00:28:42.34 Andrew And so. Um, Yeah. I'm trying to figure out like. Like, how can we own that? Groovit. How can we be the platform? But like sort of. 00:28:52.52 Sean I wonder if there's an angle. of 00:28:54.48 Andrew AI SEO platform that people, that agencies can trust. to like. 00:28:59.87 Sean Well, I think another, another like substitute. 00:29:01.14 Andrew help them produce quality content. 00:29:03.28 Sean I think another month to two now you're getting good um and another substitute for this idea of trust, because everyone says the whole quality and thing is like. 00:29:03.27 Andrew Yeah, sorry. sorry 00:29:11.11 Sean Can anyone else? Has anyone said like... It writes better than like a human. Because I feel like when you're talking about auto-blogging... um It's always with like the. trade off that like yeah is it as good as like your human as like a human writing it no No, but. Is it going to rank? Probably. So like whatever. So I wonder if there's like. 00:29:33.37 Sean A. Another angle to kind of take. take where it's like this is actually even better than like Like it. If you just got like a random human to write it by like saying, you know, like I'm thinking about like how people are currently selling like. 00:29:46.72 Sean ai and other spaces like rei it goes out and does the research and compiles it and writes notes and does the outline and right And like. 00:29:48.95 Andrew right 00:29:51.80 Andrew Hm? 00:29:55.72 Sean you know, produces it in the way that a PhD student would produce an academic paper. And then... And then it writes it. because like everyone like it kind of it almost like talks about the harness a little bit more. 00:30:06.53 Andrew Hm? 00:30:07.32 Sean Um... but i don't know i feel like I mean, I they think you're doing the hard thing of trying to compare in quality, so. Um, Okay, so what's that? 00:30:16.53 Andrew One thing I will say is like. 00:30:18.66 Sean Yeah. 00:30:18.46 Andrew Everyone sort of says quality. But. Everyone doesn't say it with the same force. Like. 00:30:24.10 Sean Right. 00:30:24.63 Andrew Like. It's definitely not the primary message you get on the Adaptify homepage or the Search Atlas homepage. like theyll There will be lines here and there where it's like... 00:30:31.46 Sean Right. 00:30:34.71 Andrew hope Like. it's good um But it's... It's... like the bulk of their messaging is. scale. 00:30:43.03 Sean Mm hmm. 00:30:43.39 Andrew Speed. Cost savings. da-da-da-da-da You know? 00:30:47.86 Sean Yeah. 00:30:47.93 Andrew Like. Scale without headcount. Super easy. 00:30:51.55 Sean Right, right, right 00:30:52.100 Andrew autopilot da da da da da and so it may be enough to just say like Okay, we're... We're not going to scale your content. to a billion. 00:31:03.56 Andrew But. Like to just. Talk. be the ones who talk obsessively about quality. And I think to your point. I think kind of what you're saying, which is smart is like. 00:31:15.91 Andrew show don't tell a little bit of like instead of just saying it's better. Talk about why it's better. Talk about like the system you've built, the thing that you're doing to try to make. Make it better. 00:31:26.87 Sean right 00:31:28.29 Andrew And like lean into those so that then people can infer this is that, oh, these people care a lot about quality. Um, 00:31:34.20 Sean right right I mean and then your content can actually be also about. 00:31:35.55 Andrew Yeah. 00:31:38.50 Sean Like. writing style analysis and and like what makes good what makes it like good writing how to tell what's good writing Um, And then also like how to tell if it's AI. 00:31:47.19 Andrew Mm hmm. 00:31:50.46 Sean Things like that. 00:31:50.76 Andrew So here... Here's another, here's a question that that this leads into. I was talking to my friend Branny. who runs Hovercode, about this yesterday. 00:31:56.14 Sean okay 00:31:58.77 Andrew And. For a long time, I've been really resistant to doing writing at all, like being an AI content writer, to building that into MetaMonster. I've always been trying to... 00:32:08.97 Sean Like writing with AI or writing about AI? 00:32:09.37 Andrew My hope. Writing with AI. writing writing with AI in Metamonster. 00:32:11.90 Sean No, he's good. thing. 00:32:13.92 Andrew It's like... We'll do all the pieces around it. We'll analyze. your writing and like generate. 00:32:18.91 Sean I

don't know. 00:32:19.86 Andrew specific updates. 00:32:21.62 Sean Mm hmm. 00:32:21.93 Andrew um We'll do SERP analysis, we'll do metadata generation, we'll do... um we just we haven't launched it yet but we we've We're testing a content outlining tool right now. 00:32:33.62 Andrew Um... um We're going to be getting into content suggestions. 00:32:38.65 Sean Yeah. 00:32:38.88 Andrew Um, But like everything but the actual. putting words on them. On the page. 00:32:44.50 Sean Yeah. 00:32:45.06 Andrew Um. And... you know, he was like If. Would you still be opposed to that if you felt like AI writing could genuinely be as good as a human? 00:32:58.44 Andrew Um, End. Like. or better. Right. um And he was like. Yo. You got to think about. the plumbing company down the street. 00:33:10.30 Andrew Like. Is there bar? Yeah. Can you get them something that's better than... What? they would have gotten otherwise. 00:33:21.45 Andrew You know, maybe it's not the level of like. Ahrefs or... the level of like. your favorite internet writers. But is it good enough? To be. 00:33:32.42 Andrew better than the alternative for them. um And I just. still have this resistance to it. Where I'm like. I think if humans aren't involved in the actual writing. 00:33:42.94 Andrew in some way, shape or form. then and the actual ideating the ideas, the creation. Damn it. You're going to create slob. and slop eventually. 00:33:56.32 Andrew stops performing. performing Um, But I'm curious. so So my question to you is... Can AI writing... 00:34:07.02 Andrew be good enough without people. like can you do a fully automated We're going to write. things for you. You just have to edit. and and it can be good enough? Or do you think humans need to be more tightly involved in the process? 00:34:25.22 Sean I mean how how tightly involved in the process, I guess, is. For your question. i think I think this is kind of like interesting. 00:34:33.97 Andrew and Can you do auto blogging? 00:34:34.08 Sean that like 00:34:36.12 Andrew Can you do autoblogging? And can it be? Truly good. 00:34:41.32 Sean um I mean I think so. I think I could, I think I could. Mike. Whoa, okay, no. Hold on. I think it's like a scale that looks like a sliding scale. that can sort of move more towards autoblogging over time. Um, 00:34:57.54 Sean you know, I think I think the parallels are with like... coding right i think like three Six months ago. like a senior software engineer would have been fired if they said i write all of my code with cloud code. 00:35:12.19 Sean Um... Uh... Like. Now. Um, I think a senior software engineer would be fired if they were saying that they don't use cloud code at all to write. 00:35:23.15 Sean any sort of code And I understand. 00:35:24.29 Andrew But senior suffering. is the good ones are still involved in the creation process they're still guiding they're still like kind of finding the specs. 00:35:28.76 Sean Right. 00:35:32.20 Sean Definitely. 00:35:32.59

Andrew you know to varying degrees, depending on the task, like some tasks. Get. get like sort of yeah one-shotted 00:35:40.13 Sean Right. 00:35:40.26 Andrew Um, Thank God we're not really using that terminology anymore. Oh. um 00:35:45.51 Sean no 00:35:46.33 Andrew But... 00:35:47.26 Sean Are we not? 00:35:47.35 Andrew thank and 00:35:47.52 Sean I feel like we are. I feel like 00:35:49.30 Andrew Some tasks you end up going back. 00:35:50.69 Sean Yeah. Yeah. 00:35:51.90 Andrew and forth on the plan for a while before you before you get to started building. 00:35:56.17 Sean Definitely. 00:35:57.41 Andrew Um, 00:35:57.93 Sean Exactly. 00:35:58.31 Andrew And so. Yeah, like varying degrees of of interaction. But most of the time, the good. senior engineers are still involved. 00:36:08.70 Andrew are still going back and forth with the models they're not 00:36:11.09 Sean Yeah. 00:36:11.21 Andrew It's not. Just like. turn on this thing, features get cranked out. 00:36:16.19 Sean Hmm. 00:36:16.09 Andrew in the background without me touching them. 00:36:18.49 Sean Yeah. 100%. 100%. um and i think that's well that's what i mean right it's like it's been a sliding scale as the harnesses get better lamon like Are the models good enough? 100%. I think this is like. 00:36:30.36 Sean people have created really good coding harnesses no one's reading created a good writing harness or people don't. Like, sorry, the focus has been, or the money has been, is the coding harness. I don't see a lot of people making like really great writing harnesses. There's no like right like in the same way of like what that loop is or what that checklist is um I don't think like the focus has been there. 00:36:54.32 Sean And I think that... could be something you work towards where Um, Like... Can that... uh because because because i think i was telling you i was working on like a separate side project of like an idea generation slash social media ghost writing sort of tool um 00:37:13.57 Andrew Hm? 00:37:13.67 Sean and a lot of the a lot of the work went into like how do we get it to like auto evolve so that the harness continues to improving become like specific or like specific to that person. 00:37:24.88 Sean Um... Um... and What am I trying to say? i I think. I think that i think the the... you know the hard part is obviously like There's many different types of good writing Whereas coding, there's. 00:37:40.32 Sean I mean there's still many. There's. different levels of like how much you optimize for it but at the end of the day they're the green check mark of does it work like 00:37:44.75 Andrew right 00:37:48.97 Sean Or not. Um... Um... 00:37:55.54 Sean So anyway, I guess all to say, like... I think it's a sliding scale. I think like you know give it like another year or two years, we're not going to have this Hank Green situation where everyone's mad at him for using AI for his writing, for example. like People will naturally do it more and more. 00:38:10.24 Sean Um... I think. I think there is. Um... uh, Um... 00:38:18.28 Sean I do think that the like. Review surface. is the part that's hard about using like AI to write a lot at the same time. um because i feel like when i'm using ai to write something i'm constantly reading rereading and i still have to come back it's not any like to me to me it's not any different than like being an editor in chief at a magazine and you send notes back and you still have to read the whole thing again Or at least keep it in your memory like memory to like. 00:38:48.17 Sean No. Um... I don't know. I'm just rambling um I don't know if I'm answering your question. 00:38:53.30 Andrew Yeah. 00:38:54.94 Sean but 00:38:55.100 Andrew i mean I think you're saying... 00:38:58.52 Andrew Yes. You think auto-blogging can be done well. but a human still needs to be involved So like pure auto blogging with zero human input. 00:39:11.02 Andrew Not really. 00:39:12.48 Sean I... Think high quality. I think... If we're talking like Jason Cohen blog posts. No fucking way a human has to be involved. jason Like, even if it's like Jason sitting down. 00:39:25.10 Sean Out like. like ah Like... approving every or like coming up with the ideas Providing the general guidance for the thing and approving every outline and then getting all the words spit out I think that is 100 % possible today. 00:39:34.85 Andrew Mm hmm. 00:39:38.16 Sean um And then at the end, Jason's still gonna have to come and read it. Copy, edit it. and also Uh... provide like contextual graphics for each thing. 00:39:50.28 Sean But I think like putting the words together in his voice, there's enough of his content out there that like I can. 00:39:50.26 Andrew yeah 00:39:55.72 Sean provide you sentences that sound like jason's things Um... 00:39:59.28 Andrew Yeah, I think this is the thing for me. 00:40:00.27 Sean For you. 00:40:00.74 Andrew like Good writing. is really like... Good ideas. It's like people people have been saying for years writing is thinking like the value in writing is like organizing your thoughts, figuring out your thoughts. 00:40:08.15 Sean Yeah. 00:40:14.87 Andrew that Good writing has a point of view. It has a... 00:40:17.48 Sean Right. 00:40:18.03 Andrew um I mean, this is this is what. Google tries to do with their EEAT. thing it's like we want expertise, experience, authority, trust we want. We want human perspective in in writing. um because that is what makes writing good and like right now robots can't go out and like have their own experiences and like form. 00:40:41.80 Andrew It's not how alums work. And so. 00:40:44.20 Sean Right. 00:40:45.75 Andrew Yet. Good writing. Peace. good thinking and good thinking still comes from humans and so 00:40:52.81 Sean So. 00:40:52.66 Andrew But. There is a sliding scale of how much. Really? original thought you need in different types of content. For sure. I would 100 % acknowledge that. 00:41:05.75 Andrew

And so I think what I'm hearing from you is like. We can absolutely agree Dead. AI can help in the writing process and like a really good writing harness could make it easier for people. 00:41:19.62 Andrew to like pull ideas out of people. And like. sort of coalesce their experience expertise. Into. into usable content, into good good content. Um, 00:41:33.90 Andrew Um... And. It's possible that... There is. there are types of content out there that Don't. necessarily need. 00:41:45.22 Andrew human. input. Um, human input. 00:41:51.15 Sean Yeah. 00:41:51.32 Andrew Um... But if you're... I do believe that if your website. ends up becoming all that type of content Um... is all autoblogs, zero human input. 00:42:04.45 Andrew kind of content, it will eventually get slapped. Um... 00:42:07.83 Sean Yep. Yeah. 00:42:09.60 Andrew um 00:42:09.77 Sean um it's the It's the mountain. that's what the that's what the uh 00:42:12.13 Andrew Yeah. Although I am curious. like Most of the time when we see those those graphs, we're looking at big sites with big amounts of data. 00:42:20.80 Sean and 00:42:20.80 Andrew Um, i'm curious if anyone's done kind of this sort of experiment for. Local, small, local. Chad businesses, as I like to call them. 00:42:30.36 Sean Yeah, yeah 00:42:30.71 Andrew Um, Because I wonder if Google's like... The bar's gotta be lower. And so like, is Google going to be as harsh? 00:42:35.74 Sean I mean... 00:42:38.15 Andrew In that. area when it's like okay yeah this content's ai generated but It's better than this other site that has fucking zero content. 00:42:45.94 Sean Yeah, so what are you gonna do clap a fucking like 00:42:45.91 Andrew Um, 00:42:48.51 Sean a local electrician's website that yeah i mean you don't hear about a lot of rank and rent sites getting clapped 00:42:48.86 Andrew Plumbing company? Shh. 00:42:54.69 Sean ah which rank and rent sites are that. right there. Um... So like... maybe i feel like the times you hear about ranking rent sites getting like Taken down is when it shares the same like Google search console account as you know they're like one of the seo agencies that are running it and like Things got affected in the like blast radius of something going down Um... 00:43:18.43 Sean I don't know But like like this is I think the question is, you were talking about like local like like local trad businesses, but... I thought. the ICP was. Like... 00:43:29.93 Sean web design agencies. 00:43:31.82 Andrew Yeah, the the ICP. 00:43:32.26 Sean That's what you're saying, like they're they're doing it. 00:43:32.84 Andrew So the ICP is largely web design agencies, but for the most part. 00:43:37.67 Sean Mm hmm. 00:43:37.76 Andrew Like the... The Carol, the perfect customer. is is not a miscreant really it's it's 00:43:43.70 Sean Yeah. 00:43:44.37 Andrew Because you sell to... B2B SaaS companies that have like... a higher bar of competition um our perfect customer is someone who is doing. 00:43:55.36 Andrew is an agency selling to SMEs. selling too. 00:43:58.29 Sean Gotcha. 00:43:59.44 Andrew More Chad businesses. 00:44:00.92 Sean Gotcha, Gotcha, Gotcha 00:44:02.05 Andrew Yeah, so it's like it's This is the thing when you're selling to agencies, you constantly have to have kind of two customer profiles in mind because you have to have like. 00:44:07.93 Sean Yeah. 00:44:08.75 Andrew Who are we selling to? But then who are they selling to? Because we we need to solve problems for both levels of customers in order to really be effective. 00:44:16.17 Sean right Right right right. That makes sense. 00:44:19.29 Andrew Yeah. 00:44:19.41 Sean makes sense Sweet. 00:44:20.63 Andrew So that's why that's why I bring that up. And that, again... dude let me let me read you this um Let me see if I can pull it up. Um, This this The profile in one line from Claude. an owner-operated marketing, SEO, or web design agency of one to 10 people that resells white label SEO to SMB clients. 00:44:41.90 Andrew and wants to serve more of them without hiring writers or a junior SEO. 00:44:47.13 Sean It's pretty good. Uh, Um... 00:44:50.50 Sean That is... Should introduce you to my SEO guy who's literally that actually 00:44:57.06 Andrew Yeah. Love that. 00:44:57.68 Sean Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, ah It's just, the what's his name? Jackie's... Jackie what? ah 00:45:08.94 Andrew Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:10.46 Sean Yeah, it's just the entire advice. 00:45:11.34 Andrew The content. 00:45:12.99 Sean It's an entire advised community. 00:45:15.45 Sean Yeah. 00:45:18.70 Andrew So i think I think my takeaway is like, we're going to start getting into content, but we're going to approach it from... How do we help people create? group. like pull their expertise out and create. 00:45:28.91 Andrew Good content. 00:45:30.04 Sean Right. 00:45:30.37 Andrew around it. Not. How do we just... Turn on a switch. and auto-blog you to hell. 00:45:37.24 Sean Yeah. Yeah, yeah Uh, Um... Well, I think... the Okay, so there's like some thoughts on the quality side too. Um, Okay, so so so one of my ah SEO guys for like the weird SEO experiments that I've been trying, right? He's in Indonesia or... i forget i don't remember if he's indonesian but like all his writers are like indonesian vas 00:46:01.99 Sean Um, But. the reason we got connected and we started talking is we were nerding out about how to get claude to actually write like a human and like like we're trying we're going back and forth and like What is the, like... 00:46:13.27 Sean back before skills were a thing and it was all mega prompts we were going back and forth sharing like mega prompts on like how to get Claude to write so that passes the plagiarism checker. Or not pleasure, the human. 00:46:26.81 Sean the originality that .ai checker. Um... And he's been writing something like... random like security experiments but Like... Uh... Quality is actually... a concern. 00:46:39.34 Sean for him like

he wants to be able to kind of like say like we're the best at this sort of stuff because you pay this like low amount of money but we produce like a really high quality posts that sound like native English speakers. and and all this sort of stuff, but it's know it's all. Indonesian VAs in the back end. 00:46:55.12 Sean Anyway. Uh, I will say that the closer... You're getting closer and closer to Black Hat SEO. So. 00:47:05.01 Andrew Yeah, and this is the other thing. 00:47:05.17 Sean Um, 00:47:06.14 Andrew like i This is the thing I'm trying to evaluate here is like, where do I... 00:47:12.00 Andrew Like, what am i what business am I going to feel good about building if I'm... Because, like, just... for Ever. I've never. Always said. I don't want to build a slot machine. 00:47:24.92 Sean Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You know, monster is in the name, just saying. ah 00:47:33.19 Andrew Just lean into it. Be the air most monstrous self. 00:47:36.38 Sean Exactly. Exactly. Go beat. Yeah. Maybe you yearn to be Miss Greens. You're going to be a miscreant. Um, 00:47:44.21 Andrew Have you heard of this tool, HeyDistro? Or no, YouDistro .com? The tool is just called Distro. 00:47:53.29 Sean You distro why oh you 00:47:56.77 Andrew Um... 00:47:56.90 Sean Is this nigga? 00:47:57.12 Andrew Yeah. It looks like it's changed. Oh it's totally changed. Bummer. 00:48:03.46 Sean Cute though. 00:48:03.95 Andrew Uh... Um, It's very cute. yeah The branding is very cute. Um, Damn, this is... Um... It looks like they're going broader with like... the kind of like marketing agent thing. one dedicated marketing agent. 00:48:22.78 Andrew Um, But... They seem to be doing well. Jesus Christ, Morning Brew, Shopify, LinkedIn, Beehive. Fucking hell. Um... Uh... 00:48:35.99 Andrew but what I was going to say is that like, what their original value prop was, was like. they'd built kind of a harness, if you will. that would interview you. 00:48:46.59 Andrew And then use those interviews to create. content. 00:48:51.31 Sean Yeah, nice 00:48:51.84 Andrew Um. 00:48:52.76 Sean Same. 00:48:54.14 Andrew is an approach that I like because it's still like... pulling in human expertise. just trying to make it easier to get that expertise out of people. 00:49:02.72 Sean Yeah. Yeah. 00:49:05.91 Andrew um But I'm not sure. if they're still focused on that. 00:49:10.35 Sean um they're probably I don't know 00:49:12.66 Andrew I'm sure it's part of what they do. but 00:49:15.18 Sean It's pretty cute. and I like it. Are you going to? I mean, is there a version of MetaMonster that's actually this, though? Like your dedicated content agent? You're dead at best. 00:49:25.44 Andrew I want it. I don't love the dedicated agent thing. I don't think it's... 00:49:30.65 Andrew I'm not convinced that it works Like I know there are people selling it So I guess it. Works better than Metamonster. But like. 00:49:38.93 Sean no 00:49:40.88 Andrew it just it doesn't feel like a very future-proof paradigm it doesn't feel like how People are gonna... think about. things in the future to me. 00:49:51.84 Sean How are people going to think about it in the future? 00:49:55.58 Andrew I mean, I think people are going to. 00:49:58.08 Sean Wait, can I give you my pitch on this? 00:49:59.80 Andrew Sure. Yeah please. 00:50:00.55 Sean Um, I think you don't buy a I don't think you don't I think there I don't think you buy agents because everyone has their personal little make them in Adrian. their own like friday or evie or jarvis and like your jarvis is connected to other apis and does or mcps or whatever the god like Thing it is in the future And it just goes and like does things. like I don't want to talk to Distro. I don't want to talk to a company's agent. I want to talk to my guy who knows me. And like. 00:50:30.26 Sean you know maybe maybe i have like a work version. of something and then I have my personal life one. Um, And that's it. that's um Yeah. 00:50:40.09 Andrew i tend to think that's true i tend to agree with that um But at the same time, I also kind of feel like. 00:50:46.23 Andrew it's probably going to mostly just be absorbed by the big model providers. Like the big model providers are going to be the personal agents. It's just like. 00:50:54.55 Sean Sure. 00:50:54.69 Andrew your cloud code, your... 00:50:57.38 Sean Yeah. 00:50:58.24 Andrew your fable, your soul, whatever. 00:51:00.33 Sean Sure. 00:51:00.61 Andrew is going to be that agent. Um, And the model providers are just going to get better and better at memory. and and and shit and like learning your context and everything 00:51:08.86 Sean Yeah. 00:51:11.46 Andrew Amen. And then. 00:51:13.30 Sean Yeah. 00:51:13.49 Andrew And so this is the other thing that I've thought about too, with like. as we start to do writing Um, like Should the writing should should content creation even live inside of Metamonster. Or should MetaMonster be more about... 00:51:26.34 Andrew Like... Should Metamonster... 00:51:27.58 Sean integrating with. 00:51:29.24 Andrew Yeah, be more about like, hey, we integrate into your cloud. really nicely and then you can you can like create content inside of Claude. and Metamonster. gives you the interface for sharing it with your client or you know, gives you the tooling to like. 00:51:45.09 Andrew you know analyze it from an SEO perspective. Um... gives you the... Like... 00:51:52.02 Sean so So I don't think you can really. 00:51:51.81 Andrew Madam. 00:51:54.14 Sean I don't think Claude is like... I think when you were explaining to me the thing like. all this like my brain went to like lex which you were using and you really liked. Um... 00:52:04.12 Andrew Yeah, I haven't used it in... like Over a year probably. 00:52:08.92 Sean Fair. Fair. I think if it integrates, I guess my point is like if it integrates into like Google Docs or into. Um, Um... Or like Notion or something. 00:52:20.16 Sean Um, 00:52:20.29 Andrew

Mm hmm. 00:52:21.72 Sean Yeah, like I don't really want to ah Move my... content workflows into MetaMonster. I'm sorry, I don't want to work my... 00:52:29.48 Andrew Yeah that's another thing I've been thinking about. 00:52:31.84 Sean I don't want to work my cunt. This is like the thing with ah with with Webflow, right? It doesn't matter how good that CMS is. our clients are never going to stop writing in google docs they will always write in google docs um And. 00:52:46.22 Sean It's almost like going back to that margins thing we were building. like It almost makes more sense to make it like a one-click publish from Google Docs to Webflow than it means. then it's, you know. anything else. 00:52:57.54 Sean Um... And... Um, Yeah, I guess like. Those are the thoughts. like pulling ah you know what if it was a google docs extension or something like that 00:53:12.28 Andrew Yes. 00:53:12.95 Sean Might save you. also Also, building a good text editor is... Paint in the ass. 00:53:18.01 Andrew Can't even guess. 00:53:18.54 Sean Yeah. 00:53:19.92 Sean yeah support like give me support and stuff like that 00:53:20.39 Andrew Yeah. 00:53:26.41 Andrew Yep. I don't. I don't disagree with you Um... There's still, I think, value. In like, from an SEO perspective. 00:53:38.98 Andrew There's still value in... 00:53:41.57 Andrew There's some interfaces that don't fit into Google Docs. Um... Although those have become less and less prioritized in our workflows. Amen. 00:53:49.40 Sean can i Can I say one thing? and ah Just interrupt you really quickly. 00:53:53.03 Andrew Okay. 00:53:53.93 Sean I do think. Like talking about pain points. And I don't know, this is like a... Like following the jason's thing. I don't know. This is good I think SEO reporting. 00:54:05.30 Sean Is awful everywhere 00:54:07.38 Andrew Yes. 00:54:07.38 Sean I've... Like... The fact that. Like... 00:54:11.57 Andrew That's what SEO gets is trying to solve. 00:54:14.30 Sean Yeah, but I think that's... ah SEO gets is really good if you're an SEO person. 00:54:19.05 Andrew Yeah, it's like... 00:54:20.43 Sean Yeah. 00:54:20.47 Andrew They're trying to move in an SEO reporting direction, I think, but they're like. 00:54:23.22 Sean I see. 00:54:24.32 Andrew They're really... like an SEO analysis. 00:54:27.72 Sean Right. Right exactly. 00:54:28.66 Andrew tool. 00:54:29.68 Sean Exactly. um And it's great. it's It's great for all of those reasons. um it is not great for 00:54:33.80 Andrew Mm-hmm. 00:54:36.10 Sean Like. a a client. 00:54:37.51 Andrew a report that is easy for a client to understand. 00:54:39.91 Sean Exactly. Exactly. 00:54:41.16 Andrew Yeah. 00:54:41.74 Sean um And it's not there's like it's not just the report on like SEO, but... that i as an agency owner care about i would love to have something that like Explained to because it's so intangible it's it would be great to be able to have something that explains to the client the value we've provided in the timeframe week to week. 00:55:00.16 Andrew Mm-hmm. 00:55:02.02 Sean And that's the missing, that's one of the missing pieces. It's a pain in the ass to kind of put together. All the tools suck. Um, 00:55:07.95 Andrew Yep. 00:55:09.26 Sean Um... Yeah. Yeah. Like. It makes sense to me that the SEO audit report is crappy. Because. It's confusing and the client looks at it and goes, I don't want to do anything about it. Can you solve it for me? 00:55:23.55 Sean that makes sense to me but once it comes to like Every single day, like the day in and day out. I wish I had something that just like auto created a brief of like, here's what. Here's what you've done, and this is what's improved. 00:55:35.78 Sean Um... And like the keyword, like. Because then, like, when I set keywords in Metamonster, that's me creating, like, intent, basically. 00:55:43.24 Andrew Hm? 00:55:43.20 Sean And all these things are intent. Um... So like. you know that I'm intending to make this page better. So tell me if I made it better or worse. Um, Yeah. 00:55:54.41 Sean Yeah. 00:55:54.51 Andrew Yeah, that is 100 % something we we think about all the time. that we don't do well yet. Um, He's like... End. and the other piece of it Is. 00:56:07.90 Andrew Amen. But, but yeah, the question mark I have is like. Can you do that? Well, if you're not the tool where people are doing the work like like Maybe Metamonster is well-situated to do that. 00:56:21.02 Andrew Because, like... people do the work in metamonster we can report on the work and then we we because we know exactly what work was done, we can... Like, back to the work. Um, 00:56:32.74 Andrew Or we can integrate with SEO Gits to track the work or whatever. Um, 00:56:36.38 Sean Mm-hmm. 00:56:38.09 Andrew SEO Gits is trying to start doing like... Change tracking. where they just automatically 00:56:43.53 Sean Nice. 00:56:43.44 Andrew keep an eye on your website and track anything that changes. 00:56:46.24 Sean be amazing. 00:56:46.53 Andrew And then me. make it easy to like. Choke. to like sort of show. Did this change do anything? Yes or no? Um. 00:56:55.05 Sean That's pretty cool. 00:56:56.58 Andrew um and so there you know there is another way to approach it which is like hey we're not going to care about doing the work we're just going to care about like monitoring Dear. your website. But. 00:57:07.74 Sean It's pretty cool. Nice. Sweet. Cool. 00:57:12.47 Andrew So let's think about. um continuing to try to find You know. what it is that most agencies want. and care enough about. 00:57:23.34 Andrew So like. Put down a credit card. 00:57:29.16 Sean I think... 00:57:30.54 Sean How are you gonna test the... any of the ideas. This time. 00:57:36.88 Andrew Um... 00:57:40.02 Andrew So I mean some of The. problem aware aspect. of of all of this like this is what part of why we're going to the conference like our plan is to just talk to as many web designers as we can at this conference web

designers web developers and just talk to them about like how they handle seo today and like get a sense of like how big of a pain point SEO is for them. 00:58:00.67 Andrew um And then we're we're running a couple of like web design focused webinars the week after. And so the hope is like. Yeah, just... Okay. Are we seeing this turn into sales? and and Yo. 00:58:14.34 Andrew as we come to understand the problem. Yeah. Like... How many people? are thinking about seo how many people's clients are asking them to do seo how many people like do people feel like they're losing clients over not doing seo do people feel like Um. 00:58:31.19 Andrew Yeah. just A lot of it's going to be kind of customer discovery, just trying to understand. more deeply like the pinpoint from their perspective. Um... 00:58:42.48 Andrew And then... As far as... Yo. what to build next. that'll kind of flow out of some of that and Right now we're... we're thinking about content and how do we do content well. 00:58:56.79 Andrew Um, Reporting was is another thing we've talked about for a long time. It's like, how do we improve reporting? We do some reporting now. um Like... And Metamonster. when you generate changes you can generate a shareable link to send to your client that shows in like Yep. Here's what we changed with this page. 00:59:16.23 Andrew Um, And you can generate like kind of recommendations with like. a rationale behind them of like, Hey, Here's here's why we changed this. Here's why we're recommending this. and Um, 00:59:27.65 Andrew ah You can share this new content outline with them. Be like, hey, here's what we're going to write. Um, But like we haven't gotten into actually tracking results. of the work. 00:59:39.57 Andrew um 00:59:41.77 Andrew um But yeah, i think I think right now we're just... trying to lean into customer discovery. and Yeah. Going to this conference, going to try to talk to a bunch of people and understand. Yep. C word. 00:59:52.37 Sean Are there? 00:59:53.47 Andrew where they light up what they're paying for. day. 00:59:56.28 Sean I wonder. um This is like just the hunch, but I bet there's also way more. Like. website development. designer. 01:00:07.27 Sean meetups than there are like SEO. 01:00:09.93 Andrew Mm hmm. 01:00:09.96 Sean Meetups. 01:00:11.13 Andrew Yeah. 01:00:10.91 Sean Which... it's like easy like way to get in their face and talk to them about it So. Cool. I'm excited for you to WordCamp. I wish I knew you were in Arizona. I would have just. you know met you there Um, 01:00:23.35 Andrew That would be fun. 01:00:24.33 Sean Yeah. 01:00:25.28 Andrew Um, When are you coming to Mexico City? 01:00:29.78 Sean Uh, 01:00:36.51 Sean think we're at. time. it's a We're at the hour mark. 01:00:38.86 Andrew but 01:00:41.64 Sean I don't know. um 01:00:42.96 Andrew Singha to Madhuri. 01:00:44.33 Sean some At some point this year. I don't know what you said to me, but it sounded like you said something about my mom. Oh. 01:00:50.38 Andrew and I just... 01:00:51.40 Sean Uh... What? 01:00:52.90 Andrew Yeah. 01:00:54.04 Sean what What did you say to me? What is Tango 2? okay whatever um 01:00:57.96 Andrew It's like the strongest curse in Mexico. It's like motherfucker. 01:01:01.00 Sean Um... 01:01:01.42 Andrew Um. 01:01:01.65 Sean Sick Sick, sick. You'll have to teach me that off the call. um I don't know, before the end of the year, hopefully, fingers crossed. We'll see. No promises. Yeah. 01:01:10.62 Andrew Cool. 01:01:11.07 Sean I do want to come. It's sense. Fun. 01:01:14.02 Andrew That's great. 01:01:14.53 Sean Yeah. 01:01:14.55 Andrew I love it 01:01:15.04 Sean Especially I was telling you for those For everyone who can't see Andrew, I was telling him that he now looks like he knows where the best tacos in town are. Uh, with his new haircut, so. Um, 01:01:26.61 Sean Cool man. 01:01:27.04 Andrew Watch us on YouTube to see. my constantly evolving hairstyles. 01:01:31.34 Sean Yeah. Yeah. Follow along for our hair journey. Alright. Oh, no. 01:01:38.99 Andrew Can't wait to vlog my trip to Turkey. 01:01:42.40 Sean Wait, what? Oh, oh, because of him. 01:01:44.19 Andrew To uh... to fix the receding hairline. 01:01:46.34 Sean I see. 01:01:46.54 Andrew but 01:01:46.55 Sean I see. Okay. Sorry, I didn't get that. It went it went over my... okay 01:01:53.69 Andrew Cool. 01:01:53.29 Sean Bye. 01:01:54.14 Andrew be Good to be back on the mics with you, dude. 01:01:54.28 Sean See you later. Good to see you. bye