00:00:00.70
Sean
Boom. Take two.
00:00:02.51
Andrew
We back.
00:00:03.57
Sean
We back. We're so back.
00:00:05.72
Andrew
We're so back. So back. Until we're not back again.
00:00:10.06
Sean
No, no, we just spent like the neck last like
00:00:10.62
Andrew
Next week. Two weeks, two weeks from now.
00:00:13.06
Sean
We just spent like the last 10 minutes. scheduling this. So.
00:00:16.89
Andrew
We're good. actually be consistent. John Rhee's not going to hate us.
00:00:21.21
Sean
Yes.
00:00:21.52
Andrew
We're going to make his life easier.
00:00:23.34
Sean
Yes.
00:00:23.61
Andrew
Um, Our 159 YouTube subscribers will be so relieved.
00:00:28.52
Sean
Are we making his life easier or harder?
00:00:32.13
Andrew
That's a great question. honor you tell making your life easier or harder.
00:00:33.44
Sean
Uh-huh.
00:00:35.93
Andrew
I'm sorry either way.
00:00:38.99
Sean
For those who don't know, Johnny's our editor. hu But. I'm sure 159 subscribers do know. All right, what are we going to talk about?
00:00:46.63
Andrew
What's up?
00:00:47.93
Sean
Nothing.
00:00:47.100
Andrew
How old the fuck was Hacker Summer Camp?
00:00:50.90
Sean
It was, I'm exhausted. um
00:00:53.69
Andrew
Of course you are.
00:00:53.90
Sean
um But... But it was good. It was really, really good. I actually ended up I actually ended up staying an extra day in Vegas because I was so tired. I couldn't think about flying.
00:01:04.36
Sean
um
00:01:05.07
Andrew
Did you move your flight?
00:01:07.24
Sean
I... didn't book my flight. So I booked it. the day before it was the same price you know it was mine it was okay it's
00:01:15.82
Andrew
Dude.
00:01:16.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:16.51
Andrew
Very, very fair. fair
00:01:17.57
Sean
Um... I put the last minute of flight.
00:01:18.98
Andrew
You get to meet my friends. You got to meet one of my...
00:01:21.02
Sean
Yes. Yes.
00:01:21.90
Andrew
Mexico City besties.
00:01:22.51
Sean
my My entire everyone was like I can't believe your name is fucking rembrandt By the way. They're like, are you are you the artist? Are you the painter? rembra
00:01:32.85
Andrew
He gets that all the fucking time here, because like, especially in Mexico, I mean, anywhere, it's it's a fairly unusual, fairly unique name.
00:01:34.33
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:39.53
Andrew
But like in Mexico, everyone's like, wait, your name's what?
00:01:40.45
Sean
It did.
00:01:42.82
Sean
okay It's a sick name. like
00:01:45.11
Andrew
A cool name.
00:01:46.04
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:46.15
Andrew
It's a cool name. He's a cool guy. he's Yeah.
00:01:47.64
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:48.58
Andrew
We've become really good friends and we've been playing a lot of paddle. Lately.
00:01:51.26
Sean
Oh, nice.
00:01:51.97
Andrew
ah becoming a big paddle fan.
00:01:54.01
Sean
Nice.
00:01:54.45
Andrew
um Has Paddle made it to New York yet?
00:01:55.39
Sean
you Yeah, yeah. I think with the racquetball stuff. um Yeah. i think I think we have paddle clubs now. It's one of those it's one of those like socially acceptable hobbies.
00:02:07.08
Sean
like co-worker hobbies, you know.
00:02:07.30
Andrew
Mm-hmm
00:02:08.77
Sean
or like things you can talk talk to your coworkers about. um But, yeah, I mean, racquetball and tennis have always been big here. because it You don't need a golf course. And... New York City.
00:02:17.61
Andrew
Yeah.
00:02:18.35
Sean
um
00:02:18.85
Andrew
That makes a lot of sense.
00:02:20.59
Sean
yeah
00:02:20.63
Andrew
Um, tennis has always felt like pretentious and preppy to me
00:02:24.81
Sean
Yeah.
00:02:24.55
Andrew
you know Had all feels. And then pickleball felt kind of like. Kind of old person-y. less pretentious but like
00:02:31.76
Sean
Well, do you know you know how pickleball became a thing?
00:02:35.67
Andrew
It started in an island off the coast of Seattle. um Because I went to the island and they were like, whole mouth pickleball. Everywhere.
00:02:42.32
Sean
oh Okay. End. Okay, I was told that that that game was started because it was... old guys who want to play tennis but also want to drink at the same time So I made the cord smaller.
00:02:53.83
Andrew
I mean, that sounds... And. That sounds like Seattle vibes, so I wouldn't i wouldn't be surprised. Um,
00:02:59.16
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:00.50
Andrew
Yeah, that fits. um Paddle was started here in Mexico. um So it's super popular here. Um,
00:03:07.34
Sean
oh Okay. that makes that that That would make sense given the spelling.
00:03:08.93
Andrew
Yeah.
00:03:11.28
Sean
but it's um
00:03:12.35
Andrew
Hmm. Yeah.
00:03:13.07
Sean
Um,
00:03:13.47
Andrew
And then my... yeah my friends and I have been playing like multiple times a week lately It's a lot of fun.
00:03:18.00
Sean
like
00:03:19.29
Andrew
So tell me more about about.
00:03:19.44
Sean
Um,
00:03:21.12
Andrew
Defcon. Defcon and Black Hat.
00:03:24.14
Sean
It was good. it was good
00:03:24.57
Andrew
What is that, like six days total? Seven?
00:03:26.86
Sean
You know. I was there from Sunday. Well, I was supposed to get in on like... Saturday night. I got in. Sunday night. um Left. it the following Tuesday.
00:03:38.83
Sean
So... 8 days? 9 days in Vegas? It's hot
00:03:43.62
Andrew
Oof. It's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:44.38
Sean
It was. There's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:46.01
Andrew
It's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:46.85
Sean
motive is I did meet a realtor in vegas though. So by accident completely completely by chance that they were like wandered into defcon and Just trying to see what the hubbub was about. It's like this like point.
00:03:56.27
Andrew
That's fun.
00:03:57.29
Sean
old ah Chinese couple. um because then i have a realtor in vegas for my eventual vegas spot
00:03:59.89
Andrew
Hell yeah.
00:04:03.46
Sean
um It was good. the Black Hat was...
00:04:05.09
Andrew
I forgot you were planning to move to Vegas.
00:04:07.67
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:08.84
Andrew
I will say City Nerd is a big Vegas fan. So.
00:04:12.14
Sean
Yes. Yes, which i you have told me this.
00:04:14.26
Andrew
No.
00:04:14.69
Sean
I haven't looked into it. I have to look into it. Um... um I don't know, man. I think like... it was ah blackout was good we had a lot of really cool booths we did like this greek statue thing at this well as well as this like Music synth. uh thing we made like a vibe coders macro pad keyboard um i don't have any on me because i give them all away Um,
00:04:43.09
Sean
But.
00:04:43.19
Andrew
When you say a vibe coder's macro pad keyword, board.
00:04:46.44
Sean
Keyboard.
00:04:46.100
Andrew
Can you...
00:04:46.100
Sean
keyboard yeah
00:04:47.87
Andrew
Can you tell me what that means?
00:04:49.56
Sean
Okay, okay, so so it looks...
00:04:51.14
Andrew
Is this ah an EDM thing?
00:04:53.38
Sean
No, it's a it looks like It looks like this. Okay. This part is just the Greek statue of a like Greek statue guy laying on his stomach with his feet up. typing on a computer and then the actual part That's...
00:05:06.34
Sean
the the keyboard is four small keys at the top to like shift key size keys one to use and two use um and each one
00:05:14.85
Andrew
huh
00:05:16.60
Sean
it like does something so one will launch claude another will open up the you know the the client's website another will be a copy button and a paste button. Cause the joke is like with. with like AI, what do you, how many, Yeah, what do you need?
00:05:27.68
Andrew
I've got a need.
00:05:29.06
Sean
You need a copy and a paste and like accept all, for you know, accept all things. uh one will you know put on yeah
00:05:35.00
Andrew
Turn on my mic.
00:05:36.37
Sean
Exactly. exactly um Yeah, and that's that's basically... that's basically what it is um um But it's reprogrammable and like...
00:05:46.51
Sean
uh people at defcon got their hands on and like one guy like immediately just like turned all of them into like auto hacking things like literally like
00:05:53.57
Andrew
ahha
00:05:54.49
Sean
push this button, get a vom, which is pretty cool.
00:05:56.79
Andrew
I know.
00:05:57.80
Sean
um Um... Yeah, and... and ah
00:06:03.27
Andrew
Give me a sense of scale here. How many... clients active clients do you all have at blackhat defcon at this point and like how many how many booths did you were you all responsible for
00:06:15.68
Sean
So I um I think number of booths. Probably not. that many i feel like Four, five, six. Possibly so under 10, more than five.
00:06:27.06
Sean
um but i don't actually remember
00:06:27.28
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:06:29.63
Sean
um Because, because like like, yeah, there's memorable ones that go off to all the way to the last minute, and then there's other ones that just, like...
00:06:29.69
Andrew
Okay.
00:06:36.54
Sean
We clear and then we're good to go. Um... In terms of like how many clients we have at Black Hat. I don't know. I have to do the... the number but I have to. Like...
00:06:49.33
Sean
I feel like saying 5 % is too many. But it it does feel like.
00:06:53.92
Andrew
5 % of like the company is at DEF CON or at Black Hat.
00:06:57.26
Sean
I have black hat. But I feel like that's like an overestimation, right? Maybe it's actually like 1 % or something like that.
00:07:04.59
Andrew
i'm
00:07:04.45
Sean
I will do the math after this now. Um,
00:07:07.52
Andrew
I was joking with my friend Rami yesterday that like you're the miscreant slack is slowly becoming like. A back channel to every. Like...
00:07:17.64
Sean
Yeah.
00:07:17.56
Andrew
cybersecurity startup out there because like everyone eventually ends up in your slack and then even if you all stop working together most of the time that you're still in your slack and so um yeah I was like, I wonder how...
00:07:30.68
Andrew
many people. like influential people in security I can reach just from the mystery and slack.
00:07:36.03
Sean
You can reach every single almost every single like security influencer probably from the mystery in slack or or in some way, shape, or form. you can you can you can text every single security influencer in the space. through a separate miscreants tool.
00:07:53.28
Sean
uh oh sorry through a mystery it's parted full um thing but Um... Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:08:02.06
Andrew
You all haven't gotten into events yet, have you?
00:08:02.18
Sean
um
00:08:04.08
Andrew
You're not like trying to like run events for people?
00:08:05.21
Sean
Yeah, we We don't we run some events for people we have we've always like
00:08:09.51
Andrew
Jesus Christ.
00:08:10.31
Sean
end up running like one or to two random ones throughout the year for people but more importantly we run our own so like
00:08:14.71
Andrew
Not like black at parties.
00:08:17.49
Sean
Uh... we have ran we have ran parties and we also have ran like full-on like single day conferences Um...
00:08:26.22
Andrew
Damn.
00:08:26.88
Sean
with people uh virtual ones virtual ones we haven't run like a in-person one by ourselves before but usually the companies that can run an in-person one have people on staff
00:08:29.98
Andrew
Hm?
00:08:32.64
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:08:36.32
Sean
to do it and we're supporting it with graphics and whatever but
00:08:40.16
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:08:40.62
Sean
Um... i mean we you know we're actively involved with a couple of random black hat like mini side conference things. And then we also host a mystery and Korean barbecue dinner.
00:08:51.53
Andrew
Mm-hmm
00:08:51.47
Sean
Um, every year with its like 100 people that's usually like the highlight of Uh, the week. um you know it's all its just people like it's it's a small number of clients that we like but it's largely like creators and whatnot that all get together in the same room um it's like the
00:09:06.80
Andrew
Did I technically?
00:09:07.03
Sean
Yep.
00:09:08.40
Andrew
i've been to that
00:09:09.79
Sean
I think so.
00:09:10.01
Andrew
i We went. before it was like officially a miscreants thing I think yeah it was just like
00:09:14.11
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:16.95
Andrew
I was... Ed.
00:09:18.96
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:18.79
Andrew
yeah black hat defcon one year and like Andrew Morris and like the sublime guys and like some people.
00:09:21.89
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:25.24
Andrew
I don't know if the sublime guys were there. I can't remember, but like.
00:09:27.16
Sean
i don't
00:09:27.91
Andrew
Uh... the Your friend's from... um What's the... Excel. No. Not Excel. they What's the...
00:09:35.42
Sean
Expel.
00:09:36.57
Andrew
Expel? the company that has the the logo that looks exactly like Microsoft Excel.
00:09:41.00
Sean
Oh, yeah. Expel. Expel.
00:09:42.49
Andrew
Thanks.
00:09:42.89
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:42.91
Andrew
Okay. um Yes, in terms of years from Expel, we're there and we went.
00:09:44.59
Sean
You have it was
00:09:47.62
Andrew
and a korean barbecue and it
00:09:49.19
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:49.35
Andrew
Slap.
00:09:50.25
Sean
yeah yeah that was uh yeah that was way smaller this we bought out the entire restaurant
00:09:53.88
Andrew
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was like eight people. It was like. eight or 12 people, something like that.
00:09:58.15
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, we bought out the entire restaurant this time. um
00:10:01.79
Andrew
That's super fun.
00:10:02.03
Sean
um, incredibly affordable by the way to do that but i have now that we've done it openmune
00:10:05.96
Andrew
It's also like so nice to get off the strip for a second, like and like go do something away from the absolute madness.
00:10:13.05
Sean
Yeah. 100%. 100%. um Yeah, I mean... It was really fun. Um, i now know the owner so now we're like best friends um
00:10:22.39
Andrew
Hell yeah.
00:10:23.40
Sean
um There was also the Star Trek convention coming out at the same time.
00:10:24.93
Andrew
Are you just like book? We want to book this these same dates for the next five years.
00:10:29.78
Sean
Pretty much, yeah.
00:10:30.85
Andrew
Yeah.
00:10:31.72
Sean
I was like, you know where it is every single year. So get ready. He's like, great. Love it. um there was also the star trek convention going on and a friend of mine is like helping with.
00:10:42.00
Andrew
That's so much fun.
00:10:43.35
Sean
Some of it are you a Star Trek fan?
00:10:45.39
Andrew
No.
00:10:45.97
Sean
Oh.
00:10:45.92
Andrew
But...
00:10:46.43
Sean
Okay.
00:10:46.57
Andrew
I mean, i I'm not not a fan, but I'm like... I'm not a Trekkie. I'm not like...
00:10:50.92
Sean
Yeah.
00:10:51.81
Andrew
Um, I don't think I've ever watched a complete season of Star Trek. I appreciate it for...
00:10:56.35
Sean
cashal
00:10:58.40
Andrew
What it is? And like.
00:10:59.66
Sean
Oh.
00:11:00.52
Andrew
think it is very good television that has a lot more depth than it gets credit for and all that But.
00:11:05.44
Sean
For sure. Um, Oh, I'm not...
00:11:06.50
Andrew
um But yeah, i but I'm not a Trekkie.
00:11:07.96
Sean
on I'm an honorary Trekkie now because I ended up. helping with planning a star trek meet and greet that almost happened at the same restaurant because because ah they needed a space, but yeah it got moved to a suite. Um,
00:11:22.69
Sean
um and it was good uh defcon we we did better than we did last year we always have a merge Stan for those who don't know um ah we We always do like a little bit. better than the previous one we sold out as always Um...
00:11:35.35
Andrew
Yeah.
00:11:36.65
Sean
And yeah. I think. We saw that of the first style within like the first couple of hours of. DEF CON news.
00:11:43.69
Andrew
sick
00:11:44.40
Sean
Yeah. And that was, I think we printed extra for it too. which was pretty crazy.
00:11:47.15
Andrew
Yeah. You all didn't do the official shirts this year, did you?
00:11:50.95
Sean
We always do the like approved officially by DEF CON has the DEF CON name on there But not like we don't do it for DEF CON's merch
00:11:55.10
Andrew
oh
00:11:59.57
Sean
like their own.
00:11:59.54
Andrew
Didn't you do it one year?
00:12:00.41
Sean
earth thing
00:12:00.55
Andrew
Didn't you do it one year for
00:12:02.69
Sean
No.
00:12:02.46
Andrew
they're like the
00:12:04.40
Sean
No, not for DEF CON.
00:12:05.02
Andrew
No.
00:12:05.64
Sean
I think it got conflated because DEF CON that year did silhouettes of hackers and we also put hackers on ours. It was for DEF CON 30.
00:12:12.94
Andrew
and
00:12:13.95
Sean
But ours was also officially approved by DEF CON to print those. um
00:12:18.53
Andrew
Gotcha.
00:12:19.86
Sean
So it was really, it was like. Like... very It was very... ah synonymous, I guess. but
00:12:27.15
Andrew
also like hey guys you could have given us a heads up that you were doing the same design and maybe we would have
00:12:32.80
Sean
Talk.
00:12:32.48
Andrew
done something different. I don't know.
00:12:34.91
Sean
i mean I was fine with it. i
00:12:36.51
Andrew
it
00:12:36.48
Sean
i was happy like it it probably drove more sales for us anyway it so i'll take it Um...
00:12:41.71
Andrew
There. Also, I'm guessing yours were probably better anyway.
00:12:46.37
Sean
ah Can't say that I'm not gonna put that on the record i i will I will put on the record that if you I found out today if you go on eBay, you can see people reselling some Mysterian shirts, which is pretty cool.
00:12:50.66
Andrew
Yeah.
00:12:56.72
Andrew
No way, really?
00:12:58.01
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty cool.
00:12:59.45
Andrew
It's wild.
00:12:59.84
Sean
um um especially the actually the defcon 31 is being resold for more money than it cost so
00:13:07.02
Andrew
Will you say the number of shirts that you sold this year?
00:13:10.85
Sean
Uh, Over 1 ,500. Shirts.
00:13:13.95
Andrew
Okay.
00:13:14.85
Sean
Yeah.
00:13:15.17
Andrew
Okay.
00:13:16.35
Sean
Or about 1 ,500 shirts, I think.
00:13:16.14
Andrew
Cool.
00:13:18.34
Sean
Peace.
00:13:18.85
Andrew
Yeah.
00:13:19.36
Sean
yeah Anyways, hello.
00:13:19.98
Andrew
Cool.
00:13:21.08
Sean
Like. Yeah. That was it. That was... um How about you? How have you been? what what do you What did you get up to in the past? month or three months that we didn't Record a podcast.
00:13:32.49
Andrew
exists. Uh... I've been getting up to lots of stuff. I'm applying for Mexican residency, so I'm trying to... I've i've done the application process and I'm just like waiting.
00:13:43.87
Andrew
waiting to hear back to be like you're approved come back, get your, pick up your card.
00:13:48.54
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:13:48.76
Andrew
um I... Uh, I had a crazy adventure with my girlfriend ah like a couple weeks ago where we took her Vespa to a waterfall um outside of the town where she lives.
00:14:02.56
Sean
Wow.
00:14:02.76
Andrew
um But... ah We thought it was going to take us like an hour to get there. It took us two and a half hours to get there. um And, like... dirt roads, crazy potholes. like super steep mountain roads and stuff um on a Vespa with two people and me driving the Vespa for the first time in my whole life.
00:14:22.43
Andrew
Um...
00:14:22.35
Sean
It was... Is the Vespa okay?
00:14:25.44
Andrew
Best was great. Best was fine as far as I know.
00:14:26.46
Sean
Nice.
00:14:27.78
Andrew
um it It handled everything like a champ. Very impressed.
00:14:31.45
Sean
Get commercial.
00:14:31.41
Andrew
Um, Very fun to drive. ah It poured rain on us, like thunder, lightning.
00:14:38.43
Sean
ah wow
00:14:38.13
Andrew
downpour on the way back. I was afraid for my life several times. but All good. Everything was great.
00:14:44.31
Sean
Did you, were you driving or?
00:14:44.76
Andrew
Yeah.
00:14:46.63
Sean
She's right.
00:14:46.64
Andrew
I drove on the way there. She drove on the way back because she is by far the better driver and it was about to rain.
00:14:48.73
Sean
Okay. Amen.
00:14:51.45
Andrew
So we were like, you should drive. You should definitely drive.
00:14:54.18
Sean
Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. I was going to say, cause like. Like if it's raining and you wear glasses You don't have many people.
00:15:00.32
Andrew
Oh, I had a helmet on with a visor.
00:15:01.80
Sean
Wow. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. All right, fine.
00:15:04.90
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. Um,
00:15:08.47
Sean
Sorry, go ahead.
00:15:09.74
Andrew
But it was funny. I was thinking like, I was like, I wonder why motorcycle helmets don't have like windshield wipers.
00:15:14.92
Sean
Mm-hmm.
00:15:17.79
Sean
Wow.
00:15:17.77
Andrew
Um... and There's probably some motorcycle helmet out there that that does.
00:15:22.51
Sean
well our dirt rally ones have um
00:15:22.98
Andrew
Um,
00:15:25.57
Sean
have like thin pieces of plastic that you peel. because you can't wipe it fast enough so the mud gets on it and you just keep peeling them off as you're driving And that's the fastest way to get clear vision the entire time.
00:15:31.04
Andrew
Oh... Whoa. whoa
00:15:37.14
Sean
It's pretty cool.
00:15:38.55
Andrew
That's crazy.
00:15:39.60
Sean
Yeah.
00:15:39.69
Andrew
I didn't know about that.
00:15:40.84
Sean
yeah
00:15:40.76
Andrew
that's wild Um, Uh... But yeah, other than that, just I like we're in a season of. trying to work as hard as we can to get Metamonster out of the Trough of Sorrow and into...
00:15:56.62
Andrew
Into the. you know you know, constantly searching for product market fit, trying to. tweak our positioning, better understand our market. Um,
00:16:07.28
Andrew
we We added a couple of customers last month. I think we're on track to add one or two this month. Um, ah So we're up to... Still tiny numbers. It depresses me when I think about it too hard. We're at eight customers, about 800.
00:16:23.92
Andrew
dollars in monthly recurring revenue. So like hoping to get over the 10 customer thousand dollar mark this this month. Um, And. ah Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about... like some positioning stuff we've been thinking a lot about positioning um And. trying to hone in on our icp and make sure we really understand the problem and like
00:16:46.61
Sean
Yeah.
00:16:46.53
Andrew
validate if they're problem aware. um so A couple of things we're thinking about. one Um, So I was feeling pretty discouraged. I was like, I don't know if if there's really enough there there if we're if we're Like maybe... after two years we need to like move on to something else.
00:17:05.49
Andrew
Um, Um, And then. I, um You know. uh a good friend recommended we reread some jason cohen articles about like icp and and problem um And...
00:17:23.26
Andrew
Um, he has this great blog post with this incredible flowchart that's like Is there, excuse me, is there a problem? I think is the name of the blog post. but really what the blog post is about is like just having a problem to solve is not enough you need to have a problem that is experienced by enough people. is felt.
00:17:42.99
Andrew
That like those people actively want to solve that they they're willing to pay you to solve it like it's this whole checklist of like Hey. If this, then this. If this, then this.
00:17:52.26
Sean
Yeah.
00:17:52.38
Andrew
Really amazing flowchart. Great blog post. um And then ah we were also rereading the iterative hypothesis. um method which is basically says like hey Here's all the things you need. to like figure out to like make.
00:18:07.94
Andrew
a business work. Um. but you shouldn't just go in with like questions. It's best to like so actively state your hypothesis because then. it's easier to go, okay, did that. Affirm or...
00:18:20.12
Andrew
Bye.
00:18:21.15
Sean
Hmm.
00:18:21.05
Andrew
disprove this hypothesis. Like it's easier when you have a concrete statement in mind. to like be more objective about the thing. Um, And as we were reading all this and thinking about this one.
00:18:33.48
Andrew
I realized we had drifted. and And I just, I do this every fucking time. It drives me crazy. But we had drifted away from. focusing on ICP. And problem?
00:18:45.52
Andrew
to thinking about solution. we were We had become, once again, a solution in search of a problem instead of... Yo. focusing on who do we want to serve? What problems do they have? How do we solve those?
00:18:58.24
Andrew
Um. And I mean, this is just the classic thing that every developer, every engineer does of like. I built this cool thing. It's cool. Why aren't people buying it? And it's like, well, they aren't buying it because you aren't.
00:19:10.94
Andrew
you don't understand the their problems their workflows well enough and you're not you're not kind of communicating
00:19:17.69
Sean
right
00:19:18.02
Andrew
um And part of this is because... you know you know i had done the work earlier this year with jade where i basically went and interned for jade to like understand her problems more but we had started to move away from like we we weren't having a whole lot of luck selling to SEOs. So we were starting to move away from SEOs. and like looking for a new audience.
00:19:38.27
Andrew
And in that process, as we moved away, instead of like being laser focused on the audience and problems, we started focusing on the solution again and being like. We've got this tool. Who can we sell this tool to? Instead of like...
00:19:50.07
Andrew
Instead of like, okay. Who are the people we want to serve? What problems do they have? Does our tool solve those problems? So. That's been on my mind. Um... And so.
00:20:02.57
Andrew
We started... yeah Laying out our hypotheses. um We've been focused. We've been trying to focus on. web designs We've actually been getting the most. traction amongst web designers.
00:20:14.60
Andrew
um You're our very first customer.
00:20:17.06
Sean
he yeah
00:20:17.45
Andrew
You're a web design agency. um You're a bunch of other things too, but you're like first and foremost a web design agency. um And... um so we've been getting more traction on web designers so we started to hone in on web designers um And.
00:20:34.05
Andrew
um adjust our update, our homepage, et cetera, hypotheses. um We're going to a conference next week, a WordCamp. um a big WordPress conference that happens in the US every year.
00:20:48.56
Andrew
in Phoenix, Arizona, and we're going. to talk to WordPress. developers, WordPress designers. Amen. to to talk to them.
00:20:56.09
Sean
doing that with you. Do you want to go to Webflow? Conf. conf it right after.
00:21:00.26
Andrew
It's fucking expensive, dude.
00:21:03.16
Sean
Not. For us, I can get you a ticket.
00:21:07.100
Andrew
Okay, let's talk offline.
00:21:09.31
Sean
okay cool
00:21:10.30
Andrew
quite what What are the dates?
00:21:12.42
Sean
um
00:21:14.92
Andrew
September.
00:21:15.93
Sean
September, I think beginning of September.
00:21:17.93
Andrew
Okay.
00:21:18.88
Sean
It's in Boston.
00:21:19.35
Andrew
Lit.
00:21:20.03
Sean
i can't i would none of us can go so ah Yeah.
00:21:25.05
Andrew
Okay. Let's talk offline, possibly.
00:21:27.21
Sean
Okay.
00:21:27.17
Andrew
Possibly, possibly. We still don't have a Webflow integration, so.
00:21:28.22
Sean
Okay.
00:21:30.51
Andrew
Um,
00:21:31.87
Sean
Stop it coming soon on that
00:21:31.83
Andrew
Yeah.
00:21:33.61
Sean
Give it back.
00:21:33.74
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, But anyway. that's why we picked word camp by the way is like we have a wordpress plugin so it's like okay cool we can at least we won't have that objection to deal with As we're talking to people.
00:21:40.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:21:46.83
Sean
right
00:21:47.39
Andrew
Um. Uh, So I've been thinking about like problem solution, who we want to solve. solve things for you. um And then one day I was like, all right, I'm going to.
00:21:58.32
Andrew
We have competitors who are successful.
00:22:00.88
Sean
Yeah.
00:22:00.79
Andrew
Why are they successful? And I was like, instead of just looking at them and looking at the solution. Let me look at them from like an ICP problem. wins.
00:22:09.17
Sean
Nice.
00:22:09.24
Andrew
and and try to figure out like who are they selling to and what are the value props they're selling like what is the the job to be done for these different products Um, And so I had Claude analyze their marketing websites and their reviews and be like, Claude, tell me who their ICP is.
00:22:24.32
Sean
Sick.
00:22:27.29
Andrew
And like their value props. Dude, so fucking useful. Like it did.
00:22:32.59
Sean
Yeah.
00:22:32.85
Andrew
such a good job and like put their ICP so succinctly. And the thing that was really encouraging was. It is the same ICP we've been hovering around trying to hone in on.
00:22:43.86
Andrew
um Owner operators. of of um Marketing. seo and web design agencies with one to ten people like that is the icp for like for like several of these products that. Adaptify.
00:22:59.99
Andrew
Search Atlas. Um. phrase and surfer get a little nuttier but still that is a huge part of their icp you know they're both bigger companies with like a broader icp at this point but like that is still like a huge portion of their of their audience, of their customer base.
00:23:16.32
Andrew
Um, And. But the one thing that was really interesting. Was it? It highlighted that they specifically sell to people who resell SEO services, resellers.
00:23:28.99
Andrew
um Whereas we've been focused more on like practitioners, like people doing SEO or like trying to convince web designers. to do SEO or something like that. So that that's something interesting.
00:23:38.68
Sean
no
00:23:41.03
Andrew
And we're trying to figure out like, okay, do we want to sell to resellers? Do we? Like. How do we feel about that market? Um... all of this but Um,
00:23:52.92
Andrew
But yeah, it was really encouraging to me. It was like, okay. There is a successful path here. Um. they you know, to sell. an SEO tool to this market and like adaptify. Search Atlas are new tools.
00:24:08.45
Andrew
you know, freeze and surfer maybe coasting on. The incumbents. But these are new tools that have managed to make this work in the last couple of years.
00:24:17.55
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:17.70
Andrew
Um. And so it's like, okay. i think there is a path here.
00:24:22.36
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:22.42
Andrew
for us to find What we need to figure out is like... What is our differentiator? in this. in this space like how do we what is our wedge how do we differentiate from these tools um And.
00:24:38.11
Andrew
Do enough people resonate with that differentiator? Two. for us and can we like reach enough of those people. to like build a viable business.
00:24:46.84
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:47.06
Andrew
um And they're like... Differentiator. that we're like hovering around trying to like clarify right now is essentially quality. It's like. Adaptify and Search Atlas are both You know, Dee's like...
00:25:01.18
Andrew
Put your SEO on autopilot. Just like. Push button and get SEO. You know, we do everything for you And we've always tried to be more on the done with you rather than the done for you. side of things.
00:25:14.60
Andrew
And so... Yeah, the question mark. to me is like can we make a compelling argument that like doing SEO with MetaMonster will result in higher quality outputs.
00:25:27.24
Andrew
Are there enough people who care about that? And, like... Yo. Okay. Can we convince people it's higher quality? Are there people who want higher quality? and don't just want done.
00:25:39.81
Andrew
push button done for me or does everyone just want push button done for me um In which case we have to decide, are we willing to try to build in that direction? Or do we... Um...
00:25:50.76
Andrew
Or is it just like... Not for us.
00:25:53.00
Sean
I think so. I think that like... Agencies So like I think agencies carry like the burden of being like. risk.
00:26:03.77
Sean
Or the burden of risk, right? I think like...
00:26:05.98
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:26:07.04
Sean
As an agency, I care more about having a human over the loop because. Um, I can't have my clients say get clapped.
00:26:15.50
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:26:15.55
Sean
um as the seo say whereas if you are a business owner you'll try anything and i think there's plenty of like like horror stories of business owners talking about how their SEO agency or.
00:26:25.74
Sean
ah the tool that they use or whatever, especially in this like AI auto blogging era. has like completely ruined. their website. and and whatever now whether or not that's true or whatever who knows right but like um Like that is. ah ah Like. i mean Sorry, there's definitely moments. the plenty of times where that's been true. And I think that. is where Um...
00:26:51.79
Sean
Like. That that's one angle. Um, in my brain of like like I care about quality because quality will... like The thing that will never get clapped is the quality.
00:27:05.54
Sean
is if If you're... like No matter what. Your website will not get clapped if it's... Lord. yeah if it's good If it genuinely is useful and good, yeah.
00:27:14.15
Andrew
If it's full of good content.
00:27:16.48
Sean
um
00:27:16.53
Andrew
Yes.
00:27:17.51
Sean
And end. And I think that is. Um... Yeah, that like that is an angle to possibly take, especially. If everyone else is on that like auto blogging train.
00:27:30.37
Sean
Um...
00:27:32.99
Andrew
Yeah, I think we've just got to figure out like how to...
00:27:33.20
Sean
And I think that makes sense.
00:27:36.17
Andrew
how to communicate it succinctly. like Because everyone says, like... way. Like... we create quality stuff and like.
00:27:44.66
Sean
Yeah.
00:27:45.85
Andrew
everyone says like oh yeah it sounds great it sounds like human wrote it it's great it's great it's great But like, how do we?
00:27:49.53
Sean
Yeah.
00:27:51.78
Andrew
Like. How do we provide proof? how do we how do we and how do we communicate it succinctly in a way that like higher like gets at that that feeling of risk of like, okay, this is a tool I can trust.
00:28:03.18
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:03.19
Andrew
This is a tool. It isn't going to tank my... my client sites.
00:28:07.60
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:07.55
Andrew
Um, End. Maybe it's a little bit more work, but I am willing to do that extra bit of work if it means that I can like trust this thing and it's like
00:28:16.82
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:17.91
Andrew
Yeah.
00:28:18.61
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:18.78
Andrew
Um, So. that's That's kind of...
00:28:22.01
Andrew
right now it feels very fuzzy like that's the general direction and like phrase and surfer i feel like are kind of like quality in a different like maybe they're not doing pure auto blogging although They are doing some of it. But also just the stuff they generate just sounds like. crap. It's like that keyword riddled bullshit.
00:28:40.39
Andrew
Um,
00:28:42.03
Sean
wow
00:28:42.34
Andrew
And so. Um, Yeah. I'm trying to figure out like. Like, how can we own that? Groovit. How can we be the platform? But like sort of.
00:28:52.52
Sean
I wonder if there's an angle. of
00:28:54.48
Andrew
AI SEO platform that people, that agencies can trust. to like.
00:28:59.87
Sean
Well, I think another, another like substitute.
00:29:01.14
Andrew
help them produce quality content.
00:29:03.28
Sean
I think another month to two now you're getting good um and another substitute for this idea of trust, because everyone says the whole quality and thing is like.
00:29:03.27
Andrew
Yeah, sorry. sorry
00:29:11.11
Sean
Can anyone else? Has anyone said like... It writes better than like a human. Because I feel like when you're talking about auto-blogging... um It's always with like the. trade off that like yeah is it as good as like your human as like a human writing it no No, but. Is it going to rank? Probably. So like whatever. So I wonder if there's like.
00:29:33.37
Sean
A. Another angle to kind of take. take where it's like this is actually even better than like Like it. If you just got like a random human to write it by like saying, you know, like I'm thinking about like how people are currently selling like.
00:29:46.72
Sean
ai and other spaces like rei it goes out and does the research and compiles it and writes notes and does the outline and right And like.
00:29:48.95
Andrew
right
00:29:51.80
Andrew
Hm?
00:29:55.72
Sean
you know, produces it in the way that a PhD student would produce an academic paper. And then... And then it writes it. because like everyone like it kind of it almost like talks about the harness a little bit more.
00:30:06.53
Andrew
Hm?
00:30:07.32
Sean
Um... but i don't know i feel like I mean, I they think you're doing the hard thing of trying to compare in quality, so. Um, Okay, so what's that?
00:30:16.53
Andrew
One thing I will say is like.
00:30:18.66
Sean
Yeah.
00:30:18.46
Andrew
Everyone sort of says quality. But. Everyone doesn't say it with the same force. Like.
00:30:24.10
Sean
Right.
00:30:24.63
Andrew
Like. It's definitely not the primary message you get on the Adaptify homepage or the Search Atlas homepage. like theyll There will be lines here and there where it's like...
00:30:31.46
Sean
Right.
00:30:34.71
Andrew
hope Like. it's good um But it's... It's... like the bulk of their messaging is. scale.
00:30:43.03
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:30:43.39
Andrew
Speed. Cost savings. da-da-da-da-da You know?
00:30:47.86
Sean
Yeah.
00:30:47.93
Andrew
Like. Scale without headcount. Super easy.
00:30:51.55
Sean
Right, right, right
00:30:52.100
Andrew
autopilot da da da da da and so it may be enough to just say like Okay, we're... We're not going to scale your content. to a billion.
00:31:03.56
Andrew
But. Like to just. Talk. be the ones who talk obsessively about quality. And I think to your point. I think kind of what you're saying, which is smart is like.
00:31:15.91
Andrew
show don't tell a little bit of like instead of just saying it's better. Talk about why it's better. Talk about like the system you've built, the thing that you're doing to try to make. Make it better.
00:31:26.87
Sean
right
00:31:28.29
Andrew
And like lean into those so that then people can infer this is that, oh, these people care a lot about quality. Um,
00:31:34.20
Sean
right right I mean and then your content can actually be also about.
00:31:35.55
Andrew
Yeah.
00:31:38.50
Sean
Like. writing style analysis and and like what makes good what makes it like good writing how to tell what's good writing Um, And then also like how to tell if it's AI.
00:31:47.19
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:31:50.46
Sean
Things like that.
00:31:50.76
Andrew
So here... Here's another, here's a question that that this leads into. I was talking to my friend Branny. who runs Hovercode, about this yesterday.
00:31:56.14
Sean
okay
00:31:58.77
Andrew
And. For a long time, I've been really resistant to doing writing at all, like being an AI content writer, to building that into MetaMonster. I've always been trying to...
00:32:08.97
Sean
Like writing with AI or writing about AI?
00:32:09.37
Andrew
My hope. Writing with AI. writing writing with AI in Metamonster.
00:32:11.90
Sean
No, he's good. thing.
00:32:13.92
Andrew
It's like... We'll do all the pieces around it. We'll analyze. your writing and like generate.
00:32:18.91
Sean
I don't know.
00:32:19.86
Andrew
specific updates.
00:32:21.62
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:32:21.93
Andrew
um We'll do SERP analysis, we'll do metadata generation, we'll do... um we just we haven't launched it yet but we we've We're testing a content outlining tool right now.
00:32:33.62
Andrew
Um... um We're going to be getting into content suggestions.
00:32:38.65
Sean
Yeah.
00:32:38.88
Andrew
Um, But like everything but the actual. putting words on them. On the page.
00:32:44.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:32:45.06
Andrew
Um. And... you know, he was like If. Would you still be opposed to that if you felt like AI writing could genuinely be as good as a human?
00:32:58.44
Andrew
Um, End. Like. or better. Right. um And he was like. Yo. You got to think about. the plumbing company down the street.
00:33:10.30
Andrew
Like. Is there bar? Yeah. Can you get them something that's better than... What? they would have gotten otherwise.
00:33:21.45
Andrew
You know, maybe it's not the level of like. Ahrefs or... the level of like. your favorite internet writers. But is it good enough? To be.
00:33:32.42
Andrew
better than the alternative for them. um And I just. still have this resistance to it. Where I'm like. I think if humans aren't involved in the actual writing.
00:33:42.94
Andrew
in some way, shape or form. then and the actual ideating the ideas, the creation. Damn it. You're going to create slob. and slop eventually.
00:33:56.32
Andrew
stops performing. performing Um, But I'm curious. so So my question to you is... Can AI writing...
00:34:07.02
Andrew
be good enough without people. like can you do a fully automated We're going to write. things for you. You just have to edit. and and it can be good enough? Or do you think humans need to be more tightly involved in the process?
00:34:25.22
Sean
I mean how how tightly involved in the process, I guess, is. For your question. i think I think this is kind of like interesting.
00:34:33.97
Andrew
and Can you do auto blogging?
00:34:34.08
Sean
that like
00:34:36.12
Andrew
Can you do autoblogging? And can it be? Truly good.
00:34:41.32
Sean
um I mean I think so. I think I could, I think I could. Mike. Whoa, okay, no. Hold on. I think it's like a scale that looks like a sliding scale. that can sort of move more towards autoblogging over time. Um,
00:34:57.54
Sean
you know, I think I think the parallels are with like... coding right i think like three Six months ago. like a senior software engineer would have been fired if they said i write all of my code with cloud code.
00:35:12.19
Sean
Um... Uh... Like. Now. Um, I think a senior software engineer would be fired if they were saying that they don't use cloud code at all to write.
00:35:23.15
Sean
any sort of code And I understand.
00:35:24.29
Andrew
But senior suffering. is the good ones are still involved in the creation process they're still guiding they're still like kind of finding the specs.
00:35:28.76
Sean
Right.
00:35:32.20
Sean
Definitely.
00:35:32.59
Andrew
you know to varying degrees, depending on the task, like some tasks. Get. get like sort of yeah one-shotted
00:35:40.13
Sean
Right.
00:35:40.26
Andrew
Um, Thank God we're not really using that terminology anymore. Oh. um
00:35:45.51
Sean
no
00:35:46.33
Andrew
But...
00:35:47.26
Sean
Are we not?
00:35:47.35
Andrew
thank and
00:35:47.52
Sean
I feel like we are. I feel like
00:35:49.30
Andrew
Some tasks you end up going back.
00:35:50.69
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:51.90
Andrew
and forth on the plan for a while before you before you get to started building.
00:35:56.17
Sean
Definitely.
00:35:57.41
Andrew
Um,
00:35:57.93
Sean
Exactly.
00:35:58.31
Andrew
And so. Yeah, like varying degrees of of interaction. But most of the time, the good. senior engineers are still involved.
00:36:08.70
Andrew
are still going back and forth with the models they're not
00:36:11.09
Sean
Yeah.
00:36:11.21
Andrew
It's not. Just like. turn on this thing, features get cranked out.
00:36:16.19
Sean
Hmm.
00:36:16.09
Andrew
in the background without me touching them.
00:36:18.49
Sean
Yeah. 100%. 100%. um and i think that's well that's what i mean right it's like it's been a sliding scale as the harnesses get better lamon like Are the models good enough? 100%. I think this is like.
00:36:30.36
Sean
people have created really good coding harnesses no one's reading created a good writing harness or people don't. Like, sorry, the focus has been, or the money has been, is the coding harness. I don't see a lot of people making like really great writing harnesses. There's no like right like in the same way of like what that loop is or what that checklist is um I don't think like the focus has been there.
00:36:54.32
Sean
And I think that... could be something you work towards where Um, Like... Can that... uh because because because i think i was telling you i was working on like a separate side project of like an idea generation slash social media ghost writing sort of tool um
00:37:13.57
Andrew
Hm?
00:37:13.67
Sean
and a lot of the a lot of the work went into like how do we get it to like auto evolve so that the harness continues to improving become like specific or like specific to that person.
00:37:24.88
Sean
Um... Um... and What am I trying to say? i I think. I think that i think the the... you know the hard part is obviously like There's many different types of good writing Whereas coding, there's.
00:37:40.32
Sean
I mean there's still many. There's. different levels of like how much you optimize for it but at the end of the day they're the green check mark of does it work like
00:37:44.75
Andrew
right
00:37:48.97
Sean
Or not. Um... Um...
00:37:55.54
Sean
So anyway, I guess all to say, like... I think it's a sliding scale. I think like you know give it like another year or two years, we're not going to have this Hank Green situation where everyone's mad at him for using AI for his writing, for example. like People will naturally do it more and more.
00:38:10.24
Sean
Um... I think. I think there is. Um... uh, Um...
00:38:18.28
Sean
I do think that the like. Review surface. is the part that's hard about using like AI to write a lot at the same time. um because i feel like when i'm using ai to write something i'm constantly reading rereading and i still have to come back it's not any like to me to me it's not any different than like being an editor in chief at a magazine and you send notes back and you still have to read the whole thing again Or at least keep it in your memory like memory to like.
00:38:48.17
Sean
No. Um... I don't know. I'm just rambling um I don't know if I'm answering your question.
00:38:53.30
Andrew
Yeah.
00:38:54.94
Sean
but
00:38:55.100
Andrew
i mean I think you're saying...
00:38:58.52
Andrew
Yes. You think auto-blogging can be done well. but a human still needs to be involved So like pure auto blogging with zero human input.
00:39:11.02
Andrew
Not really.
00:39:12.48
Sean
I... Think high quality. I think... If we're talking like Jason Cohen blog posts. No fucking way a human has to be involved. jason Like, even if it's like Jason sitting down.
00:39:25.10
Sean
Out like. like ah Like... approving every or like coming up with the ideas Providing the general guidance for the thing and approving every outline and then getting all the words spit out I think that is 100 % possible today.
00:39:34.85
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:39:38.16
Sean
um And then at the end, Jason's still gonna have to come and read it. Copy, edit it. and also Uh... provide like contextual graphics for each thing.
00:39:50.28
Sean
But I think like putting the words together in his voice, there's enough of his content out there that like I can.
00:39:50.26
Andrew
yeah
00:39:55.72
Sean
provide you sentences that sound like jason's things Um...
00:39:59.28
Andrew
Yeah, I think this is the thing for me.
00:40:00.27
Sean
For you.
00:40:00.74
Andrew
like Good writing. is really like... Good ideas. It's like people people have been saying for years writing is thinking like the value in writing is like organizing your thoughts, figuring out your thoughts.
00:40:08.15
Sean
Yeah.
00:40:14.87
Andrew
that Good writing has a point of view. It has a...
00:40:17.48
Sean
Right.
00:40:18.03
Andrew
um I mean, this is this is what. Google tries to do with their EEAT. thing it's like we want expertise, experience, authority, trust we want. We want human perspective in in writing. um because that is what makes writing good and like right now robots can't go out and like have their own experiences and like form.
00:40:41.80
Andrew
It's not how alums work. And so.
00:40:44.20
Sean
Right.
00:40:45.75
Andrew
Yet. Good writing. Peace. good thinking and good thinking still comes from humans and so
00:40:52.81
Sean
So.
00:40:52.66
Andrew
But. There is a sliding scale of how much. Really? original thought you need in different types of content. For sure. I would 100 % acknowledge that.
00:41:05.75
Andrew
And so I think what I'm hearing from you is like. We can absolutely agree Dead. AI can help in the writing process and like a really good writing harness could make it easier for people.
00:41:19.62
Andrew
to like pull ideas out of people. And like. sort of coalesce their experience expertise. Into. into usable content, into good good content. Um,
00:41:33.90
Andrew
Um... And. It's possible that... There is. there are types of content out there that Don't. necessarily need.
00:41:45.22
Andrew
human. input. Um, human input.
00:41:51.15
Sean
Yeah.
00:41:51.32
Andrew
Um... But if you're... I do believe that if your website. ends up becoming all that type of content Um... is all autoblogs, zero human input.
00:42:04.45
Andrew
kind of content, it will eventually get slapped. Um...
00:42:07.83
Sean
Yep. Yeah.
00:42:09.60
Andrew
um
00:42:09.77
Sean
um it's the It's the mountain. that's what the that's what the uh
00:42:12.13
Andrew
Yeah. Although I am curious. like Most of the time when we see those those graphs, we're looking at big sites with big amounts of data.
00:42:20.80
Sean
and
00:42:20.80
Andrew
Um, i'm curious if anyone's done kind of this sort of experiment for. Local, small, local. Chad businesses, as I like to call them.
00:42:30.36
Sean
Yeah, yeah
00:42:30.71
Andrew
Um, Because I wonder if Google's like... The bar's gotta be lower. And so like, is Google going to be as harsh?
00:42:35.74
Sean
I mean...
00:42:38.15
Andrew
In that. area when it's like okay yeah this content's ai generated but It's better than this other site that has fucking zero content.
00:42:45.94
Sean
Yeah, so what are you gonna do clap a fucking like
00:42:45.91
Andrew
Um,
00:42:48.51
Sean
a local electrician's website that yeah i mean you don't hear about a lot of rank and rent sites getting clapped
00:42:48.86
Andrew
Plumbing company? Shh.
00:42:54.69
Sean
ah which rank and rent sites are that. right there. Um... So like... maybe i feel like the times you hear about ranking rent sites getting like Taken down is when it shares the same like Google search console account as you know they're like one of the seo agencies that are running it and like Things got affected in the like blast radius of something going down Um...
00:43:18.43
Sean
I don't know But like like this is I think the question is, you were talking about like local like like local trad businesses, but... I thought. the ICP was. Like...
00:43:29.93
Sean
web design agencies.
00:43:31.82
Andrew
Yeah, the the ICP.
00:43:32.26
Sean
That's what you're saying, like they're they're doing it.
00:43:32.84
Andrew
So the ICP is largely web design agencies, but for the most part.
00:43:37.67
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:43:37.76
Andrew
Like the... The Carol, the perfect customer. is is not a miscreant really it's it's
00:43:43.70
Sean
Yeah.
00:43:44.37
Andrew
Because you sell to... B2B SaaS companies that have like... a higher bar of competition um our perfect customer is someone who is doing.
00:43:55.36
Andrew
is an agency selling to SMEs. selling too.
00:43:58.29
Sean
Gotcha.
00:43:59.44
Andrew
More Chad businesses.
00:44:00.92
Sean
Gotcha, Gotcha, Gotcha
00:44:02.05
Andrew
Yeah, so it's like it's This is the thing when you're selling to agencies, you constantly have to have kind of two customer profiles in mind because you have to have like.
00:44:07.93
Sean
Yeah.
00:44:08.75
Andrew
Who are we selling to? But then who are they selling to? Because we we need to solve problems for both levels of customers in order to really be effective.
00:44:16.17
Sean
right Right right right. That makes sense.
00:44:19.29
Andrew
Yeah.
00:44:19.41
Sean
makes sense Sweet.
00:44:20.63
Andrew
So that's why that's why I bring that up. And that, again... dude let me let me read you this um Let me see if I can pull it up. Um, This this The profile in one line from Claude. an owner-operated marketing, SEO, or web design agency of one to 10 people that resells white label SEO to SMB clients.
00:44:41.90
Andrew
and wants to serve more of them without hiring writers or a junior SEO.
00:44:47.13
Sean
It's pretty good. Uh, Um...
00:44:50.50
Sean
That is... Should introduce you to my SEO guy who's literally that actually
00:44:57.06
Andrew
Yeah. Love that.
00:44:57.68
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, ah It's just, the what's his name? Jackie's... Jackie what? ah
00:45:08.94
Andrew
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:10.46
Sean
Yeah, it's just the entire advice.
00:45:11.34
Andrew
The content.
00:45:12.99
Sean
It's an entire advised community.
00:45:15.45
Sean
Yeah.
00:45:18.70
Andrew
So i think I think my takeaway is like, we're going to start getting into content, but we're going to approach it from... How do we help people create? group. like pull their expertise out and create.
00:45:28.91
Andrew
Good content.
00:45:30.04
Sean
Right.
00:45:30.37
Andrew
around it. Not. How do we just... Turn on a switch. and auto-blog you to hell.
00:45:37.24
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah Uh, Um... Well, I think... the Okay, so there's like some thoughts on the quality side too. Um, Okay, so so so one of my ah SEO guys for like the weird SEO experiments that I've been trying, right? He's in Indonesia or... i forget i don't remember if he's indonesian but like all his writers are like indonesian vas
00:46:01.99
Sean
Um, But. the reason we got connected and we started talking is we were nerding out about how to get claude to actually write like a human and like like we're trying we're going back and forth and like What is the, like...
00:46:13.27
Sean
back before skills were a thing and it was all mega prompts we were going back and forth sharing like mega prompts on like how to get Claude to write so that passes the plagiarism checker. Or not pleasure, the human.
00:46:26.81
Sean
the originality that .ai checker. Um... And he's been writing something like... random like security experiments but Like... Uh... Quality is actually... a concern.
00:46:39.34
Sean
for him like he wants to be able to kind of like say like we're the best at this sort of stuff because you pay this like low amount of money but we produce like a really high quality posts that sound like native English speakers. and and all this sort of stuff, but it's know it's all. Indonesian VAs in the back end.
00:46:55.12
Sean
Anyway. Uh, I will say that the closer... You're getting closer and closer to Black Hat SEO. So.
00:47:05.01
Andrew
Yeah, and this is the other thing.
00:47:05.17
Sean
Um,
00:47:06.14
Andrew
like i This is the thing I'm trying to evaluate here is like, where do I...
00:47:12.00
Andrew
Like, what am i what business am I going to feel good about building if I'm... Because, like, just... for Ever. I've never. Always said. I don't want to build a slot machine.
00:47:24.92
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You know, monster is in the name, just saying. ah
00:47:33.19
Andrew
Just lean into it. Be the air most monstrous self.
00:47:36.38
Sean
Exactly. Exactly. Go beat. Yeah. Maybe you yearn to be Miss Greens. You're going to be a miscreant. Um,
00:47:44.21
Andrew
Have you heard of this tool, HeyDistro? Or no, YouDistro .com? The tool is just called Distro.
00:47:53.29
Sean
You distro why oh you
00:47:56.77
Andrew
Um...
00:47:56.90
Sean
Is this nigga?
00:47:57.12
Andrew
Yeah. It looks like it's changed. Oh it's totally changed. Bummer.
00:48:03.46
Sean
Cute though.
00:48:03.95
Andrew
Uh... Um, It's very cute. yeah The branding is very cute. Um, Damn, this is... Um... It looks like they're going broader with like... the kind of like marketing agent thing. one dedicated marketing agent.
00:48:22.78
Andrew
Um, But... They seem to be doing well. Jesus Christ, Morning Brew, Shopify, LinkedIn, Beehive. Fucking hell. Um... Uh...
00:48:35.99
Andrew
but what I was going to say is that like, what their original value prop was, was like. they'd built kind of a harness, if you will. that would interview you.
00:48:46.59
Andrew
And then use those interviews to create. content.
00:48:51.31
Sean
Yeah, nice
00:48:51.84
Andrew
Um.
00:48:52.76
Sean
Same.
00:48:54.14
Andrew
is an approach that I like because it's still like... pulling in human expertise. just trying to make it easier to get that expertise out of people.
00:49:02.72
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:05.91
Andrew
um But I'm not sure. if they're still focused on that.
00:49:10.35
Sean
um they're probably I don't know
00:49:12.66
Andrew
I'm sure it's part of what they do. but
00:49:15.18
Sean
It's pretty cute. and I like it. Are you going to? I mean, is there a version of MetaMonster that's actually this, though? Like your dedicated content agent? You're dead at best.
00:49:25.44
Andrew
I want it. I don't love the dedicated agent thing. I don't think it's...
00:49:30.65
Andrew
I'm not convinced that it works Like I know there are people selling it So I guess it. Works better than Metamonster. But like.
00:49:38.93
Sean
no
00:49:40.88
Andrew
it just it doesn't feel like a very future-proof paradigm it doesn't feel like how People are gonna... think about. things in the future to me.
00:49:51.84
Sean
How are people going to think about it in the future?
00:49:55.58
Andrew
I mean, I think people are going to.
00:49:58.08
Sean
Wait, can I give you my pitch on this?
00:49:59.80
Andrew
Sure. Yeah please.
00:50:00.55
Sean
Um, I think you don't buy a I don't think you don't I think there I don't think you buy agents because everyone has their personal little make them in Adrian. their own like friday or evie or jarvis and like your jarvis is connected to other apis and does or mcps or whatever the god like Thing it is in the future And it just goes and like does things. like I don't want to talk to Distro. I don't want to talk to a company's agent. I want to talk to my guy who knows me. And like.
00:50:30.26
Sean
you know maybe maybe i have like a work version. of something and then I have my personal life one. Um, And that's it. that's um Yeah.
00:50:40.09
Andrew
i tend to think that's true i tend to agree with that um But at the same time, I also kind of feel like.
00:50:46.23
Andrew
it's probably going to mostly just be absorbed by the big model providers. Like the big model providers are going to be the personal agents. It's just like.
00:50:54.55
Sean
Sure.
00:50:54.69
Andrew
your cloud code, your...
00:50:57.38
Sean
Yeah.
00:50:58.24
Andrew
your fable, your soul, whatever.
00:51:00.33
Sean
Sure.
00:51:00.61
Andrew
is going to be that agent. Um, And the model providers are just going to get better and better at memory. and and and shit and like learning your context and everything
00:51:08.86
Sean
Yeah.
00:51:11.46
Andrew
Amen. And then.
00:51:13.30
Sean
Yeah.
00:51:13.49
Andrew
And so this is the other thing that I've thought about too, with like. as we start to do writing Um, like Should the writing should should content creation even live inside of Metamonster. Or should MetaMonster be more about...
00:51:26.34
Andrew
Like... Should Metamonster...
00:51:27.58
Sean
integrating with.
00:51:29.24
Andrew
Yeah, be more about like, hey, we integrate into your cloud. really nicely and then you can you can like create content inside of Claude. and Metamonster. gives you the interface for sharing it with your client or you know, gives you the tooling to like.
00:51:45.09
Andrew
you know analyze it from an SEO perspective. Um... gives you the... Like...
00:51:52.02
Sean
so So I don't think you can really.
00:51:51.81
Andrew
Madam.
00:51:54.14
Sean
I don't think Claude is like... I think when you were explaining to me the thing like. all this like my brain went to like lex which you were using and you really liked. Um...
00:52:04.12
Andrew
Yeah, I haven't used it in... like Over a year probably.
00:52:08.92
Sean
Fair. Fair. I think if it integrates, I guess my point is like if it integrates into like Google Docs or into. Um, Um... Or like Notion or something.
00:52:20.16
Sean
Um,
00:52:20.29
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:52:21.72
Sean
Yeah, like I don't really want to ah Move my... content workflows into MetaMonster. I'm sorry, I don't want to work my...
00:52:29.48
Andrew
Yeah that's another thing I've been thinking about.
00:52:31.84
Sean
I don't want to work my cunt. This is like the thing with ah with with Webflow, right? It doesn't matter how good that CMS is. our clients are never going to stop writing in google docs they will always write in google docs um And.
00:52:46.22
Sean
It's almost like going back to that margins thing we were building. like It almost makes more sense to make it like a one-click publish from Google Docs to Webflow than it means. then it's, you know. anything else.
00:52:57.54
Sean
Um... And... Um, Yeah, I guess like. Those are the thoughts. like pulling ah you know what if it was a google docs extension or something like that
00:53:12.28
Andrew
Yes.
00:53:12.95
Sean
Might save you. also Also, building a good text editor is... Paint in the ass.
00:53:18.01
Andrew
Can't even guess.
00:53:18.54
Sean
Yeah.
00:53:19.92
Sean
yeah support like give me support and stuff like that
00:53:20.39
Andrew
Yeah.
00:53:26.41
Andrew
Yep. I don't. I don't disagree with you Um... There's still, I think, value. In like, from an SEO perspective.
00:53:38.98
Andrew
There's still value in...
00:53:41.57
Andrew
There's some interfaces that don't fit into Google Docs. Um... Although those have become less and less prioritized in our workflows. Amen.
00:53:49.40
Sean
can i Can I say one thing? and ah Just interrupt you really quickly.
00:53:53.03
Andrew
Okay.
00:53:53.93
Sean
I do think. Like talking about pain points. And I don't know, this is like a... Like following the jason's thing. I don't know. This is good I think SEO reporting.
00:54:05.30
Sean
Is awful everywhere
00:54:07.38
Andrew
Yes.
00:54:07.38
Sean
I've... Like... The fact that. Like...
00:54:11.57
Andrew
That's what SEO gets is trying to solve.
00:54:14.30
Sean
Yeah, but I think that's... ah SEO gets is really good if you're an SEO person.
00:54:19.05
Andrew
Yeah, it's like...
00:54:20.43
Sean
Yeah.
00:54:20.47
Andrew
They're trying to move in an SEO reporting direction, I think, but they're like.
00:54:23.22
Sean
I see.
00:54:24.32
Andrew
They're really... like an SEO analysis.
00:54:27.72
Sean
Right. Right exactly.
00:54:28.66
Andrew
tool.
00:54:29.68
Sean
Exactly. um And it's great. it's It's great for all of those reasons. um it is not great for
00:54:33.80
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:54:36.10
Sean
Like. a a client.
00:54:37.51
Andrew
a report that is easy for a client to understand.
00:54:39.91
Sean
Exactly. Exactly.
00:54:41.16
Andrew
Yeah.
00:54:41.74
Sean
um And it's not there's like it's not just the report on like SEO, but... that i as an agency owner care about i would love to have something that like Explained to because it's so intangible it's it would be great to be able to have something that explains to the client the value we've provided in the timeframe week to week.
00:55:00.16
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:55:02.02
Sean
And that's the missing, that's one of the missing pieces. It's a pain in the ass to kind of put together. All the tools suck. Um,
00:55:07.95
Andrew
Yep.
00:55:09.26
Sean
Um... Yeah. Yeah. Like. It makes sense to me that the SEO audit report is crappy. Because. It's confusing and the client looks at it and goes, I don't want to do anything about it. Can you solve it for me?
00:55:23.55
Sean
that makes sense to me but once it comes to like Every single day, like the day in and day out. I wish I had something that just like auto created a brief of like, here's what. Here's what you've done, and this is what's improved.
00:55:35.78
Sean
Um... And like the keyword, like. Because then, like, when I set keywords in Metamonster, that's me creating, like, intent, basically.
00:55:43.24
Andrew
Hm?
00:55:43.20
Sean
And all these things are intent. Um... So like. you know that I'm intending to make this page better. So tell me if I made it better or worse. Um, Yeah.
00:55:54.41
Sean
Yeah.
00:55:54.51
Andrew
Yeah, that is 100 % something we we think about all the time. that we don't do well yet. Um, He's like... End. and the other piece of it Is.
00:56:07.90
Andrew
Amen. But, but yeah, the question mark I have is like. Can you do that? Well, if you're not the tool where people are doing the work like like Maybe Metamonster is well-situated to do that.
00:56:21.02
Andrew
Because, like... people do the work in metamonster we can report on the work and then we we because we know exactly what work was done, we can... Like, back to the work. Um,
00:56:32.74
Andrew
Or we can integrate with SEO Gits to track the work or whatever. Um,
00:56:36.38
Sean
Mm-hmm.
00:56:38.09
Andrew
SEO Gits is trying to start doing like... Change tracking. where they just automatically
00:56:43.53
Sean
Nice.
00:56:43.44
Andrew
keep an eye on your website and track anything that changes.
00:56:46.24
Sean
be amazing.
00:56:46.53
Andrew
And then me. make it easy to like. Choke. to like sort of show. Did this change do anything? Yes or no? Um.
00:56:55.05
Sean
That's pretty cool.
00:56:56.58
Andrew
um and so there you know there is another way to approach it which is like hey we're not going to care about doing the work we're just going to care about like monitoring Dear. your website. But.
00:57:07.74
Sean
It's pretty cool. Nice. Sweet. Cool.
00:57:12.47
Andrew
So let's think about. um continuing to try to find You know. what it is that most agencies want. and care enough about.
00:57:23.34
Andrew
So like. Put down a credit card.
00:57:29.16
Sean
I think...
00:57:30.54
Sean
How are you gonna test the... any of the ideas. This time.
00:57:36.88
Andrew
Um...
00:57:40.02
Andrew
So I mean some of The. problem aware aspect. of of all of this like this is what part of why we're going to the conference like our plan is to just talk to as many web designers as we can at this conference web designers web developers and just talk to them about like how they handle seo today and like get a sense of like how big of a pain point SEO is for them.
00:58:00.67
Andrew
um And then we're we're running a couple of like web design focused webinars the week after. And so the hope is like. Yeah, just... Okay. Are we seeing this turn into sales? and and Yo.
00:58:14.34
Andrew
as we come to understand the problem. Yeah. Like... How many people? are thinking about seo how many people's clients are asking them to do seo how many people like do people feel like they're losing clients over not doing seo do people feel like Um.
00:58:31.19
Andrew
Yeah. just A lot of it's going to be kind of customer discovery, just trying to understand. more deeply like the pinpoint from their perspective. Um...
00:58:42.48
Andrew
And then... As far as... Yo. what to build next. that'll kind of flow out of some of that and Right now we're... we're thinking about content and how do we do content well.
00:58:56.79
Andrew
Um, Reporting was is another thing we've talked about for a long time. It's like, how do we improve reporting? We do some reporting now. um Like... And Metamonster. when you generate changes you can generate a shareable link to send to your client that shows in like Yep. Here's what we changed with this page.
00:59:16.23
Andrew
Um, And you can generate like kind of recommendations with like. a rationale behind them of like, Hey, Here's here's why we changed this. Here's why we're recommending this. and Um,
00:59:27.65
Andrew
ah You can share this new content outline with them. Be like, hey, here's what we're going to write. Um, But like we haven't gotten into actually tracking results. of the work.
00:59:39.57
Andrew
um
00:59:41.77
Andrew
um But yeah, i think I think right now we're just... trying to lean into customer discovery. and Yeah. Going to this conference, going to try to talk to a bunch of people and understand. Yep. C word.
00:59:52.37
Sean
Are there?
00:59:53.47
Andrew
where they light up what they're paying for. day.
00:59:56.28
Sean
I wonder. um This is like just the hunch, but I bet there's also way more. Like. website development. designer.
01:00:07.27
Sean
meetups than there are like SEO.
01:00:09.93
Andrew
Mm hmm.
01:00:09.96
Sean
Meetups.
01:00:11.13
Andrew
Yeah.
01:00:10.91
Sean
Which... it's like easy like way to get in their face and talk to them about it So. Cool. I'm excited for you to WordCamp. I wish I knew you were in Arizona. I would have just. you know met you there Um,
01:00:23.35
Andrew
That would be fun.
01:00:24.33
Sean
Yeah.
01:00:25.28
Andrew
Um, When are you coming to Mexico City?
01:00:29.78
Sean
Uh,
01:00:36.51
Sean
think we're at. time. it's a We're at the hour mark.
01:00:38.86
Andrew
but
01:00:41.64
Sean
I don't know. um
01:00:42.96
Andrew
Singha to Madhuri.
01:00:44.33
Sean
some At some point this year. I don't know what you said to me, but it sounded like you said something about my mom. Oh.
01:00:50.38
Andrew
and I just...
01:00:51.40
Sean
Uh... What?
01:00:52.90
Andrew
Yeah.
01:00:54.04
Sean
what What did you say to me? What is Tango 2? okay whatever um
01:00:57.96
Andrew
It's like the strongest curse in Mexico. It's like motherfucker.
01:01:01.00
Sean
Um...
01:01:01.42
Andrew
Um.
01:01:01.65
Sean
Sick Sick, sick. You'll have to teach me that off the call. um I don't know, before the end of the year, hopefully, fingers crossed. We'll see. No promises. Yeah.
01:01:10.62
Andrew
Cool.
01:01:11.07
Sean
I do want to come. It's sense. Fun.
01:01:14.02
Andrew
That's great.
01:01:14.53
Sean
Yeah.
01:01:14.55
Andrew
I love it
01:01:15.04
Sean
Especially I was telling you for those For everyone who can't see Andrew, I was telling him that he now looks like he knows where the best tacos in town are. Uh, with his new haircut, so. Um,
01:01:26.61
Sean
Cool man.
01:01:27.04
Andrew
Watch us on YouTube to see. my constantly evolving hairstyles.
01:01:31.34
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Follow along for our hair journey. Alright. Oh, no.
01:01:38.99
Andrew
Can't wait to vlog my trip to Turkey.
01:01:42.40
Sean
Wait, what? Oh, oh, because of him.
01:01:44.19
Andrew
To uh... to fix the receding hairline.
01:01:46.34
Sean
I see.
01:01:46.54
Andrew
but
01:01:46.55
Sean
I see. Okay. Sorry, I didn't get that. It went it went over my... okay
01:01:53.69
Andrew
Cool.
01:01:53.29
Sean
Bye.
01:01:54.14
Andrew
be Good to be back on the mics with you, dude.
01:01:54.28
Sean
See you later. Good to see you. bye
Sean
Boom. Take two.
00:00:02.51
Andrew
We back.
00:00:03.57
Sean
We back. We're so back.
00:00:05.72
Andrew
We're so back. So back. Until we're not back again.
00:00:10.06
Sean
No, no, we just spent like the neck last like
00:00:10.62
Andrew
Next week. Two weeks, two weeks from now.
00:00:13.06
Sean
We just spent like the last 10 minutes. scheduling this. So.
00:00:16.89
Andrew
We're good. actually be consistent. John Rhee's not going to hate us.
00:00:21.21
Sean
Yes.
00:00:21.52
Andrew
We're going to make his life easier.
00:00:23.34
Sean
Yes.
00:00:23.61
Andrew
Um, Our 159 YouTube subscribers will be so relieved.
00:00:28.52
Sean
Are we making his life easier or harder?
00:00:32.13
Andrew
That's a great question. honor you tell making your life easier or harder.
00:00:33.44
Sean
Uh-huh.
00:00:35.93
Andrew
I'm sorry either way.
00:00:38.99
Sean
For those who don't know, Johnny's our editor. hu But. I'm sure 159 subscribers do know. All right, what are we going to talk about?
00:00:46.63
Andrew
What's up?
00:00:47.93
Sean
Nothing.
00:00:47.100
Andrew
How old the fuck was Hacker Summer Camp?
00:00:50.90
Sean
It was, I'm exhausted. um
00:00:53.69
Andrew
Of course you are.
00:00:53.90
Sean
um But... But it was good. It was really, really good. I actually ended up I actually ended up staying an extra day in Vegas because I was so tired. I couldn't think about flying.
00:01:04.36
Sean
um
00:01:05.07
Andrew
Did you move your flight?
00:01:07.24
Sean
I... didn't book my flight. So I booked it. the day before it was the same price you know it was mine it was okay it's
00:01:15.82
Andrew
Dude.
00:01:16.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:16.51
Andrew
Very, very fair. fair
00:01:17.57
Sean
Um... I put the last minute of flight.
00:01:18.98
Andrew
You get to meet my friends. You got to meet one of my...
00:01:21.02
Sean
Yes. Yes.
00:01:21.90
Andrew
Mexico City besties.
00:01:22.51
Sean
my My entire everyone was like I can't believe your name is fucking rembrandt By the way. They're like, are you are you the artist? Are you the painter? rembra
00:01:32.85
Andrew
He gets that all the fucking time here, because like, especially in Mexico, I mean, anywhere, it's it's a fairly unusual, fairly unique name.
00:01:34.33
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:39.53
Andrew
But like in Mexico, everyone's like, wait, your name's what?
00:01:40.45
Sean
It did.
00:01:42.82
Sean
okay It's a sick name. like
00:01:45.11
Andrew
A cool name.
00:01:46.04
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:46.15
Andrew
It's a cool name. He's a cool guy. he's Yeah.
00:01:47.64
Sean
Yeah.
00:01:48.58
Andrew
We've become really good friends and we've been playing a lot of paddle. Lately.
00:01:51.26
Sean
Oh, nice.
00:01:51.97
Andrew
ah becoming a big paddle fan.
00:01:54.01
Sean
Nice.
00:01:54.45
Andrew
um Has Paddle made it to New York yet?
00:01:55.39
Sean
you Yeah, yeah. I think with the racquetball stuff. um Yeah. i think I think we have paddle clubs now. It's one of those it's one of those like socially acceptable hobbies.
00:02:07.08
Sean
like co-worker hobbies, you know.
00:02:07.30
Andrew
Mm-hmm
00:02:08.77
Sean
or like things you can talk talk to your coworkers about. um But, yeah, I mean, racquetball and tennis have always been big here. because it You don't need a golf course. And... New York City.
00:02:17.61
Andrew
Yeah.
00:02:18.35
Sean
um
00:02:18.85
Andrew
That makes a lot of sense.
00:02:20.59
Sean
yeah
00:02:20.63
Andrew
Um, tennis has always felt like pretentious and preppy to me
00:02:24.81
Sean
Yeah.
00:02:24.55
Andrew
you know Had all feels. And then pickleball felt kind of like. Kind of old person-y. less pretentious but like
00:02:31.76
Sean
Well, do you know you know how pickleball became a thing?
00:02:35.67
Andrew
It started in an island off the coast of Seattle. um Because I went to the island and they were like, whole mouth pickleball. Everywhere.
00:02:42.32
Sean
oh Okay. End. Okay, I was told that that that game was started because it was... old guys who want to play tennis but also want to drink at the same time So I made the cord smaller.
00:02:53.83
Andrew
I mean, that sounds... And. That sounds like Seattle vibes, so I wouldn't i wouldn't be surprised. Um,
00:02:59.16
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:03:00.50
Andrew
Yeah, that fits. um Paddle was started here in Mexico. um So it's super popular here. Um,
00:03:07.34
Sean
oh Okay. that makes that that That would make sense given the spelling.
00:03:08.93
Andrew
Yeah.
00:03:11.28
Sean
but it's um
00:03:12.35
Andrew
Hmm. Yeah.
00:03:13.07
Sean
Um,
00:03:13.47
Andrew
And then my... yeah my friends and I have been playing like multiple times a week lately It's a lot of fun.
00:03:18.00
Sean
like
00:03:19.29
Andrew
So tell me more about about.
00:03:19.44
Sean
Um,
00:03:21.12
Andrew
Defcon. Defcon and Black Hat.
00:03:24.14
Sean
It was good. it was good
00:03:24.57
Andrew
What is that, like six days total? Seven?
00:03:26.86
Sean
You know. I was there from Sunday. Well, I was supposed to get in on like... Saturday night. I got in. Sunday night. um Left. it the following Tuesday.
00:03:38.83
Sean
So... 8 days? 9 days in Vegas? It's hot
00:03:43.62
Andrew
Oof. It's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:44.38
Sean
It was. There's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:46.01
Andrew
It's a lot of Vegas.
00:03:46.85
Sean
motive is I did meet a realtor in vegas though. So by accident completely completely by chance that they were like wandered into defcon and Just trying to see what the hubbub was about. It's like this like point.
00:03:56.27
Andrew
That's fun.
00:03:57.29
Sean
old ah Chinese couple. um because then i have a realtor in vegas for my eventual vegas spot
00:03:59.89
Andrew
Hell yeah.
00:04:03.46
Sean
um It was good. the Black Hat was...
00:04:05.09
Andrew
I forgot you were planning to move to Vegas.
00:04:07.67
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:08.84
Andrew
I will say City Nerd is a big Vegas fan. So.
00:04:12.14
Sean
Yes. Yes, which i you have told me this.
00:04:14.26
Andrew
No.
00:04:14.69
Sean
I haven't looked into it. I have to look into it. Um... um I don't know, man. I think like... it was ah blackout was good we had a lot of really cool booths we did like this greek statue thing at this well as well as this like Music synth. uh thing we made like a vibe coders macro pad keyboard um i don't have any on me because i give them all away Um,
00:04:43.09
Sean
But.
00:04:43.19
Andrew
When you say a vibe coder's macro pad keyword, board.
00:04:46.44
Sean
Keyboard.
00:04:46.100
Andrew
Can you...
00:04:46.100
Sean
keyboard yeah
00:04:47.87
Andrew
Can you tell me what that means?
00:04:49.56
Sean
Okay, okay, so so it looks...
00:04:51.14
Andrew
Is this ah an EDM thing?
00:04:53.38
Sean
No, it's a it looks like It looks like this. Okay. This part is just the Greek statue of a like Greek statue guy laying on his stomach with his feet up. typing on a computer and then the actual part That's...
00:05:06.34
Sean
the the keyboard is four small keys at the top to like shift key size keys one to use and two use um and each one
00:05:14.85
Andrew
huh
00:05:16.60
Sean
it like does something so one will launch claude another will open up the you know the the client's website another will be a copy button and a paste button. Cause the joke is like with. with like AI, what do you, how many, Yeah, what do you need?
00:05:27.68
Andrew
I've got a need.
00:05:29.06
Sean
You need a copy and a paste and like accept all, for you know, accept all things. uh one will you know put on yeah
00:05:35.00
Andrew
Turn on my mic.
00:05:36.37
Sean
Exactly. exactly um Yeah, and that's that's basically... that's basically what it is um um But it's reprogrammable and like...
00:05:46.51
Sean
uh people at defcon got their hands on and like one guy like immediately just like turned all of them into like auto hacking things like literally like
00:05:53.57
Andrew
ahha
00:05:54.49
Sean
push this button, get a vom, which is pretty cool.
00:05:56.79
Andrew
I know.
00:05:57.80
Sean
um Um... Yeah, and... and ah
00:06:03.27
Andrew
Give me a sense of scale here. How many... clients active clients do you all have at blackhat defcon at this point and like how many how many booths did you were you all responsible for
00:06:15.68
Sean
So I um I think number of booths. Probably not. that many i feel like Four, five, six. Possibly so under 10, more than five.
00:06:27.06
Sean
um but i don't actually remember
00:06:27.28
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:06:29.63
Sean
um Because, because like like, yeah, there's memorable ones that go off to all the way to the last minute, and then there's other ones that just, like...
00:06:29.69
Andrew
Okay.
00:06:36.54
Sean
We clear and then we're good to go. Um... In terms of like how many clients we have at Black Hat. I don't know. I have to do the... the number but I have to. Like...
00:06:49.33
Sean
I feel like saying 5 % is too many. But it it does feel like.
00:06:53.92
Andrew
5 % of like the company is at DEF CON or at Black Hat.
00:06:57.26
Sean
I have black hat. But I feel like that's like an overestimation, right? Maybe it's actually like 1 % or something like that.
00:07:04.59
Andrew
i'm
00:07:04.45
Sean
I will do the math after this now. Um,
00:07:07.52
Andrew
I was joking with my friend Rami yesterday that like you're the miscreant slack is slowly becoming like. A back channel to every. Like...
00:07:17.64
Sean
Yeah.
00:07:17.56
Andrew
cybersecurity startup out there because like everyone eventually ends up in your slack and then even if you all stop working together most of the time that you're still in your slack and so um yeah I was like, I wonder how...
00:07:30.68
Andrew
many people. like influential people in security I can reach just from the mystery and slack.
00:07:36.03
Sean
You can reach every single almost every single like security influencer probably from the mystery in slack or or in some way, shape, or form. you can you can you can text every single security influencer in the space. through a separate miscreants tool.
00:07:53.28
Sean
uh oh sorry through a mystery it's parted full um thing but Um... Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:08:02.06
Andrew
You all haven't gotten into events yet, have you?
00:08:02.18
Sean
um
00:08:04.08
Andrew
You're not like trying to like run events for people?
00:08:05.21
Sean
Yeah, we We don't we run some events for people we have we've always like
00:08:09.51
Andrew
Jesus Christ.
00:08:10.31
Sean
end up running like one or to two random ones throughout the year for people but more importantly we run our own so like
00:08:14.71
Andrew
Not like black at parties.
00:08:17.49
Sean
Uh... we have ran we have ran parties and we also have ran like full-on like single day conferences Um...
00:08:26.22
Andrew
Damn.
00:08:26.88
Sean
with people uh virtual ones virtual ones we haven't run like a in-person one by ourselves before but usually the companies that can run an in-person one have people on staff
00:08:29.98
Andrew
Hm?
00:08:32.64
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:08:36.32
Sean
to do it and we're supporting it with graphics and whatever but
00:08:40.16
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:08:40.62
Sean
Um... i mean we you know we're actively involved with a couple of random black hat like mini side conference things. And then we also host a mystery and Korean barbecue dinner.
00:08:51.53
Andrew
Mm-hmm
00:08:51.47
Sean
Um, every year with its like 100 people that's usually like the highlight of Uh, the week. um you know it's all its just people like it's it's a small number of clients that we like but it's largely like creators and whatnot that all get together in the same room um it's like the
00:09:06.80
Andrew
Did I technically?
00:09:07.03
Sean
Yep.
00:09:08.40
Andrew
i've been to that
00:09:09.79
Sean
I think so.
00:09:10.01
Andrew
i We went. before it was like officially a miscreants thing I think yeah it was just like
00:09:14.11
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:16.95
Andrew
I was... Ed.
00:09:18.96
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:18.79
Andrew
yeah black hat defcon one year and like Andrew Morris and like the sublime guys and like some people.
00:09:21.89
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:25.24
Andrew
I don't know if the sublime guys were there. I can't remember, but like.
00:09:27.16
Sean
i don't
00:09:27.91
Andrew
Uh... the Your friend's from... um What's the... Excel. No. Not Excel. they What's the...
00:09:35.42
Sean
Expel.
00:09:36.57
Andrew
Expel? the company that has the the logo that looks exactly like Microsoft Excel.
00:09:41.00
Sean
Oh, yeah. Expel. Expel.
00:09:42.49
Andrew
Thanks.
00:09:42.89
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:42.91
Andrew
Okay. um Yes, in terms of years from Expel, we're there and we went.
00:09:44.59
Sean
You have it was
00:09:47.62
Andrew
and a korean barbecue and it
00:09:49.19
Sean
Yeah.
00:09:49.35
Andrew
Slap.
00:09:50.25
Sean
yeah yeah that was uh yeah that was way smaller this we bought out the entire restaurant
00:09:53.88
Andrew
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was like eight people. It was like. eight or 12 people, something like that.
00:09:58.15
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, we bought out the entire restaurant this time. um
00:10:01.79
Andrew
That's super fun.
00:10:02.03
Sean
um, incredibly affordable by the way to do that but i have now that we've done it openmune
00:10:05.96
Andrew
It's also like so nice to get off the strip for a second, like and like go do something away from the absolute madness.
00:10:13.05
Sean
Yeah. 100%. 100%. um Yeah, I mean... It was really fun. Um, i now know the owner so now we're like best friends um
00:10:22.39
Andrew
Hell yeah.
00:10:23.40
Sean
um There was also the Star Trek convention coming out at the same time.
00:10:24.93
Andrew
Are you just like book? We want to book this these same dates for the next five years.
00:10:29.78
Sean
Pretty much, yeah.
00:10:30.85
Andrew
Yeah.
00:10:31.72
Sean
I was like, you know where it is every single year. So get ready. He's like, great. Love it. um there was also the star trek convention going on and a friend of mine is like helping with.
00:10:42.00
Andrew
That's so much fun.
00:10:43.35
Sean
Some of it are you a Star Trek fan?
00:10:45.39
Andrew
No.
00:10:45.97
Sean
Oh.
00:10:45.92
Andrew
But...
00:10:46.43
Sean
Okay.
00:10:46.57
Andrew
I mean, i I'm not not a fan, but I'm like... I'm not a Trekkie. I'm not like...
00:10:50.92
Sean
Yeah.
00:10:51.81
Andrew
Um, I don't think I've ever watched a complete season of Star Trek. I appreciate it for...
00:10:56.35
Sean
cashal
00:10:58.40
Andrew
What it is? And like.
00:10:59.66
Sean
Oh.
00:11:00.52
Andrew
think it is very good television that has a lot more depth than it gets credit for and all that But.
00:11:05.44
Sean
For sure. Um, Oh, I'm not...
00:11:06.50
Andrew
um But yeah, i but I'm not a Trekkie.
00:11:07.96
Sean
on I'm an honorary Trekkie now because I ended up. helping with planning a star trek meet and greet that almost happened at the same restaurant because because ah they needed a space, but yeah it got moved to a suite. Um,
00:11:22.69
Sean
um and it was good uh defcon we we did better than we did last year we always have a merge Stan for those who don't know um ah we We always do like a little bit. better than the previous one we sold out as always Um...
00:11:35.35
Andrew
Yeah.
00:11:36.65
Sean
And yeah. I think. We saw that of the first style within like the first couple of hours of. DEF CON news.
00:11:43.69
Andrew
sick
00:11:44.40
Sean
Yeah. And that was, I think we printed extra for it too. which was pretty crazy.
00:11:47.15
Andrew
Yeah. You all didn't do the official shirts this year, did you?
00:11:50.95
Sean
We always do the like approved officially by DEF CON has the DEF CON name on there But not like we don't do it for DEF CON's merch
00:11:55.10
Andrew
oh
00:11:59.57
Sean
like their own.
00:11:59.54
Andrew
Didn't you do it one year?
00:12:00.41
Sean
earth thing
00:12:00.55
Andrew
Didn't you do it one year for
00:12:02.69
Sean
No.
00:12:02.46
Andrew
they're like the
00:12:04.40
Sean
No, not for DEF CON.
00:12:05.02
Andrew
No.
00:12:05.64
Sean
I think it got conflated because DEF CON that year did silhouettes of hackers and we also put hackers on ours. It was for DEF CON 30.
00:12:12.94
Andrew
and
00:12:13.95
Sean
But ours was also officially approved by DEF CON to print those. um
00:12:18.53
Andrew
Gotcha.
00:12:19.86
Sean
So it was really, it was like. Like... very It was very... ah synonymous, I guess. but
00:12:27.15
Andrew
also like hey guys you could have given us a heads up that you were doing the same design and maybe we would have
00:12:32.80
Sean
Talk.
00:12:32.48
Andrew
done something different. I don't know.
00:12:34.91
Sean
i mean I was fine with it. i
00:12:36.51
Andrew
it
00:12:36.48
Sean
i was happy like it it probably drove more sales for us anyway it so i'll take it Um...
00:12:41.71
Andrew
There. Also, I'm guessing yours were probably better anyway.
00:12:46.37
Sean
ah Can't say that I'm not gonna put that on the record i i will I will put on the record that if you I found out today if you go on eBay, you can see people reselling some Mysterian shirts, which is pretty cool.
00:12:50.66
Andrew
Yeah.
00:12:56.72
Andrew
No way, really?
00:12:58.01
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty cool.
00:12:59.45
Andrew
It's wild.
00:12:59.84
Sean
um um especially the actually the defcon 31 is being resold for more money than it cost so
00:13:07.02
Andrew
Will you say the number of shirts that you sold this year?
00:13:10.85
Sean
Uh, Over 1 ,500. Shirts.
00:13:13.95
Andrew
Okay.
00:13:14.85
Sean
Yeah.
00:13:15.17
Andrew
Okay.
00:13:16.35
Sean
Or about 1 ,500 shirts, I think.
00:13:16.14
Andrew
Cool.
00:13:18.34
Sean
Peace.
00:13:18.85
Andrew
Yeah.
00:13:19.36
Sean
yeah Anyways, hello.
00:13:19.98
Andrew
Cool.
00:13:21.08
Sean
Like. Yeah. That was it. That was... um How about you? How have you been? what what do you What did you get up to in the past? month or three months that we didn't Record a podcast.
00:13:32.49
Andrew
exists. Uh... I've been getting up to lots of stuff. I'm applying for Mexican residency, so I'm trying to... I've i've done the application process and I'm just like waiting.
00:13:43.87
Andrew
waiting to hear back to be like you're approved come back, get your, pick up your card.
00:13:48.54
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:13:48.76
Andrew
um I... Uh, I had a crazy adventure with my girlfriend ah like a couple weeks ago where we took her Vespa to a waterfall um outside of the town where she lives.
00:14:02.56
Sean
Wow.
00:14:02.76
Andrew
um But... ah We thought it was going to take us like an hour to get there. It took us two and a half hours to get there. um And, like... dirt roads, crazy potholes. like super steep mountain roads and stuff um on a Vespa with two people and me driving the Vespa for the first time in my whole life.
00:14:22.43
Andrew
Um...
00:14:22.35
Sean
It was... Is the Vespa okay?
00:14:25.44
Andrew
Best was great. Best was fine as far as I know.
00:14:26.46
Sean
Nice.
00:14:27.78
Andrew
um it It handled everything like a champ. Very impressed.
00:14:31.45
Sean
Get commercial.
00:14:31.41
Andrew
Um, Very fun to drive. ah It poured rain on us, like thunder, lightning.
00:14:38.43
Sean
ah wow
00:14:38.13
Andrew
downpour on the way back. I was afraid for my life several times. but All good. Everything was great.
00:14:44.31
Sean
Did you, were you driving or?
00:14:44.76
Andrew
Yeah.
00:14:46.63
Sean
She's right.
00:14:46.64
Andrew
I drove on the way there. She drove on the way back because she is by far the better driver and it was about to rain.
00:14:48.73
Sean
Okay. Amen.
00:14:51.45
Andrew
So we were like, you should drive. You should definitely drive.
00:14:54.18
Sean
Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. I was going to say, cause like. Like if it's raining and you wear glasses You don't have many people.
00:15:00.32
Andrew
Oh, I had a helmet on with a visor.
00:15:01.80
Sean
Wow. Oh, okay. That makes more sense. All right, fine.
00:15:04.90
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. Um,
00:15:08.47
Sean
Sorry, go ahead.
00:15:09.74
Andrew
But it was funny. I was thinking like, I was like, I wonder why motorcycle helmets don't have like windshield wipers.
00:15:14.92
Sean
Mm-hmm.
00:15:17.79
Sean
Wow.
00:15:17.77
Andrew
Um... and There's probably some motorcycle helmet out there that that does.
00:15:22.51
Sean
well our dirt rally ones have um
00:15:22.98
Andrew
Um,
00:15:25.57
Sean
have like thin pieces of plastic that you peel. because you can't wipe it fast enough so the mud gets on it and you just keep peeling them off as you're driving And that's the fastest way to get clear vision the entire time.
00:15:31.04
Andrew
Oh... Whoa. whoa
00:15:37.14
Sean
It's pretty cool.
00:15:38.55
Andrew
That's crazy.
00:15:39.60
Sean
Yeah.
00:15:39.69
Andrew
I didn't know about that.
00:15:40.84
Sean
yeah
00:15:40.76
Andrew
that's wild Um, Uh... But yeah, other than that, just I like we're in a season of. trying to work as hard as we can to get Metamonster out of the Trough of Sorrow and into...
00:15:56.62
Andrew
Into the. you know you know, constantly searching for product market fit, trying to. tweak our positioning, better understand our market. Um,
00:16:07.28
Andrew
we We added a couple of customers last month. I think we're on track to add one or two this month. Um, ah So we're up to... Still tiny numbers. It depresses me when I think about it too hard. We're at eight customers, about 800.
00:16:23.92
Andrew
dollars in monthly recurring revenue. So like hoping to get over the 10 customer thousand dollar mark this this month. Um, And. ah Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about... like some positioning stuff we've been thinking a lot about positioning um And. trying to hone in on our icp and make sure we really understand the problem and like
00:16:46.61
Sean
Yeah.
00:16:46.53
Andrew
validate if they're problem aware. um so A couple of things we're thinking about. one Um, So I was feeling pretty discouraged. I was like, I don't know if if there's really enough there there if we're if we're Like maybe... after two years we need to like move on to something else.
00:17:05.49
Andrew
Um, Um, And then. I, um You know. uh a good friend recommended we reread some jason cohen articles about like icp and and problem um And...
00:17:23.26
Andrew
Um, he has this great blog post with this incredible flowchart that's like Is there, excuse me, is there a problem? I think is the name of the blog post. but really what the blog post is about is like just having a problem to solve is not enough you need to have a problem that is experienced by enough people. is felt.
00:17:42.99
Andrew
That like those people actively want to solve that they they're willing to pay you to solve it like it's this whole checklist of like Hey. If this, then this. If this, then this.
00:17:52.26
Sean
Yeah.
00:17:52.38
Andrew
Really amazing flowchart. Great blog post. um And then ah we were also rereading the iterative hypothesis. um method which is basically says like hey Here's all the things you need. to like figure out to like make.
00:18:07.94
Andrew
a business work. Um. but you shouldn't just go in with like questions. It's best to like so actively state your hypothesis because then. it's easier to go, okay, did that. Affirm or...
00:18:20.12
Andrew
Bye.
00:18:21.15
Sean
Hmm.
00:18:21.05
Andrew
disprove this hypothesis. Like it's easier when you have a concrete statement in mind. to like be more objective about the thing. Um, And as we were reading all this and thinking about this one.
00:18:33.48
Andrew
I realized we had drifted. and And I just, I do this every fucking time. It drives me crazy. But we had drifted away from. focusing on ICP. And problem?
00:18:45.52
Andrew
to thinking about solution. we were We had become, once again, a solution in search of a problem instead of... Yo. focusing on who do we want to serve? What problems do they have? How do we solve those?
00:18:58.24
Andrew
Um. And I mean, this is just the classic thing that every developer, every engineer does of like. I built this cool thing. It's cool. Why aren't people buying it? And it's like, well, they aren't buying it because you aren't.
00:19:10.94
Andrew
you don't understand the their problems their workflows well enough and you're not you're not kind of communicating
00:19:17.69
Sean
right
00:19:18.02
Andrew
um And part of this is because... you know you know i had done the work earlier this year with jade where i basically went and interned for jade to like understand her problems more but we had started to move away from like we we weren't having a whole lot of luck selling to SEOs. So we were starting to move away from SEOs. and like looking for a new audience.
00:19:38.27
Andrew
And in that process, as we moved away, instead of like being laser focused on the audience and problems, we started focusing on the solution again and being like. We've got this tool. Who can we sell this tool to? Instead of like...
00:19:50.07
Andrew
Instead of like, okay. Who are the people we want to serve? What problems do they have? Does our tool solve those problems? So. That's been on my mind. Um... And so.
00:20:02.57
Andrew
We started... yeah Laying out our hypotheses. um We've been focused. We've been trying to focus on. web designs We've actually been getting the most. traction amongst web designers.
00:20:14.60
Andrew
um You're our very first customer.
00:20:17.06
Sean
he yeah
00:20:17.45
Andrew
You're a web design agency. um You're a bunch of other things too, but you're like first and foremost a web design agency. um And... um so we've been getting more traction on web designers so we started to hone in on web designers um And.
00:20:34.05
Andrew
um adjust our update, our homepage, et cetera, hypotheses. um We're going to a conference next week, a WordCamp. um a big WordPress conference that happens in the US every year.
00:20:48.56
Andrew
in Phoenix, Arizona, and we're going. to talk to WordPress. developers, WordPress designers. Amen. to to talk to them.
00:20:56.09
Sean
doing that with you. Do you want to go to Webflow? Conf. conf it right after.
00:21:00.26
Andrew
It's fucking expensive, dude.
00:21:03.16
Sean
Not. For us, I can get you a ticket.
00:21:07.100
Andrew
Okay, let's talk offline.
00:21:09.31
Sean
okay cool
00:21:10.30
Andrew
quite what What are the dates?
00:21:12.42
Sean
um
00:21:14.92
Andrew
September.
00:21:15.93
Sean
September, I think beginning of September.
00:21:17.93
Andrew
Okay.
00:21:18.88
Sean
It's in Boston.
00:21:19.35
Andrew
Lit.
00:21:20.03
Sean
i can't i would none of us can go so ah Yeah.
00:21:25.05
Andrew
Okay. Let's talk offline, possibly.
00:21:27.21
Sean
Okay.
00:21:27.17
Andrew
Possibly, possibly. We still don't have a Webflow integration, so.
00:21:28.22
Sean
Okay.
00:21:30.51
Andrew
Um,
00:21:31.87
Sean
Stop it coming soon on that
00:21:31.83
Andrew
Yeah.
00:21:33.61
Sean
Give it back.
00:21:33.74
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, But anyway. that's why we picked word camp by the way is like we have a wordpress plugin so it's like okay cool we can at least we won't have that objection to deal with As we're talking to people.
00:21:40.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:21:46.83
Sean
right
00:21:47.39
Andrew
Um. Uh, So I've been thinking about like problem solution, who we want to solve. solve things for you. um And then one day I was like, all right, I'm going to.
00:21:58.32
Andrew
We have competitors who are successful.
00:22:00.88
Sean
Yeah.
00:22:00.79
Andrew
Why are they successful? And I was like, instead of just looking at them and looking at the solution. Let me look at them from like an ICP problem. wins.
00:22:09.17
Sean
Nice.
00:22:09.24
Andrew
and and try to figure out like who are they selling to and what are the value props they're selling like what is the the job to be done for these different products Um, And so I had Claude analyze their marketing websites and their reviews and be like, Claude, tell me who their ICP is.
00:22:24.32
Sean
Sick.
00:22:27.29
Andrew
And like their value props. Dude, so fucking useful. Like it did.
00:22:32.59
Sean
Yeah.
00:22:32.85
Andrew
such a good job and like put their ICP so succinctly. And the thing that was really encouraging was. It is the same ICP we've been hovering around trying to hone in on.
00:22:43.86
Andrew
um Owner operators. of of um Marketing. seo and web design agencies with one to ten people like that is the icp for like for like several of these products that. Adaptify.
00:22:59.99
Andrew
Search Atlas. Um. phrase and surfer get a little nuttier but still that is a huge part of their icp you know they're both bigger companies with like a broader icp at this point but like that is still like a huge portion of their of their audience, of their customer base.
00:23:16.32
Andrew
Um, And. But the one thing that was really interesting. Was it? It highlighted that they specifically sell to people who resell SEO services, resellers.
00:23:28.99
Andrew
um Whereas we've been focused more on like practitioners, like people doing SEO or like trying to convince web designers. to do SEO or something like that. So that that's something interesting.
00:23:38.68
Sean
no
00:23:41.03
Andrew
And we're trying to figure out like, okay, do we want to sell to resellers? Do we? Like. How do we feel about that market? Um... all of this but Um,
00:23:52.92
Andrew
But yeah, it was really encouraging to me. It was like, okay. There is a successful path here. Um. they you know, to sell. an SEO tool to this market and like adaptify. Search Atlas are new tools.
00:24:08.45
Andrew
you know, freeze and surfer maybe coasting on. The incumbents. But these are new tools that have managed to make this work in the last couple of years.
00:24:17.55
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:17.70
Andrew
Um. And so it's like, okay. i think there is a path here.
00:24:22.36
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:22.42
Andrew
for us to find What we need to figure out is like... What is our differentiator? in this. in this space like how do we what is our wedge how do we differentiate from these tools um And.
00:24:38.11
Andrew
Do enough people resonate with that differentiator? Two. for us and can we like reach enough of those people. to like build a viable business.
00:24:46.84
Sean
Yeah.
00:24:47.06
Andrew
um And they're like... Differentiator. that we're like hovering around trying to like clarify right now is essentially quality. It's like. Adaptify and Search Atlas are both You know, Dee's like...
00:25:01.18
Andrew
Put your SEO on autopilot. Just like. Push button and get SEO. You know, we do everything for you And we've always tried to be more on the done with you rather than the done for you. side of things.
00:25:14.60
Andrew
And so... Yeah, the question mark. to me is like can we make a compelling argument that like doing SEO with MetaMonster will result in higher quality outputs.
00:25:27.24
Andrew
Are there enough people who care about that? And, like... Yo. Okay. Can we convince people it's higher quality? Are there people who want higher quality? and don't just want done.
00:25:39.81
Andrew
push button done for me or does everyone just want push button done for me um In which case we have to decide, are we willing to try to build in that direction? Or do we... Um...
00:25:50.76
Andrew
Or is it just like... Not for us.
00:25:53.00
Sean
I think so. I think that like... Agencies So like I think agencies carry like the burden of being like. risk.
00:26:03.77
Sean
Or the burden of risk, right? I think like...
00:26:05.98
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:26:07.04
Sean
As an agency, I care more about having a human over the loop because. Um, I can't have my clients say get clapped.
00:26:15.50
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:26:15.55
Sean
um as the seo say whereas if you are a business owner you'll try anything and i think there's plenty of like like horror stories of business owners talking about how their SEO agency or.
00:26:25.74
Sean
ah the tool that they use or whatever, especially in this like AI auto blogging era. has like completely ruined. their website. and and whatever now whether or not that's true or whatever who knows right but like um Like that is. ah ah Like. i mean Sorry, there's definitely moments. the plenty of times where that's been true. And I think that. is where Um...
00:26:51.79
Sean
Like. That that's one angle. Um, in my brain of like like I care about quality because quality will... like The thing that will never get clapped is the quality.
00:27:05.54
Sean
is if If you're... like No matter what. Your website will not get clapped if it's... Lord. yeah if it's good If it genuinely is useful and good, yeah.
00:27:14.15
Andrew
If it's full of good content.
00:27:16.48
Sean
um
00:27:16.53
Andrew
Yes.
00:27:17.51
Sean
And end. And I think that is. Um... Yeah, that like that is an angle to possibly take, especially. If everyone else is on that like auto blogging train.
00:27:30.37
Sean
Um...
00:27:32.99
Andrew
Yeah, I think we've just got to figure out like how to...
00:27:33.20
Sean
And I think that makes sense.
00:27:36.17
Andrew
how to communicate it succinctly. like Because everyone says, like... way. Like... we create quality stuff and like.
00:27:44.66
Sean
Yeah.
00:27:45.85
Andrew
everyone says like oh yeah it sounds great it sounds like human wrote it it's great it's great it's great But like, how do we?
00:27:49.53
Sean
Yeah.
00:27:51.78
Andrew
Like. How do we provide proof? how do we how do we and how do we communicate it succinctly in a way that like higher like gets at that that feeling of risk of like, okay, this is a tool I can trust.
00:28:03.18
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:03.19
Andrew
This is a tool. It isn't going to tank my... my client sites.
00:28:07.60
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:07.55
Andrew
Um, End. Maybe it's a little bit more work, but I am willing to do that extra bit of work if it means that I can like trust this thing and it's like
00:28:16.82
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:17.91
Andrew
Yeah.
00:28:18.61
Sean
Yeah.
00:28:18.78
Andrew
Um, So. that's That's kind of...
00:28:22.01
Andrew
right now it feels very fuzzy like that's the general direction and like phrase and surfer i feel like are kind of like quality in a different like maybe they're not doing pure auto blogging although They are doing some of it. But also just the stuff they generate just sounds like. crap. It's like that keyword riddled bullshit.
00:28:40.39
Andrew
Um,
00:28:42.03
Sean
wow
00:28:42.34
Andrew
And so. Um, Yeah. I'm trying to figure out like. Like, how can we own that? Groovit. How can we be the platform? But like sort of.
00:28:52.52
Sean
I wonder if there's an angle. of
00:28:54.48
Andrew
AI SEO platform that people, that agencies can trust. to like.
00:28:59.87
Sean
Well, I think another, another like substitute.
00:29:01.14
Andrew
help them produce quality content.
00:29:03.28
Sean
I think another month to two now you're getting good um and another substitute for this idea of trust, because everyone says the whole quality and thing is like.
00:29:03.27
Andrew
Yeah, sorry. sorry
00:29:11.11
Sean
Can anyone else? Has anyone said like... It writes better than like a human. Because I feel like when you're talking about auto-blogging... um It's always with like the. trade off that like yeah is it as good as like your human as like a human writing it no No, but. Is it going to rank? Probably. So like whatever. So I wonder if there's like.
00:29:33.37
Sean
A. Another angle to kind of take. take where it's like this is actually even better than like Like it. If you just got like a random human to write it by like saying, you know, like I'm thinking about like how people are currently selling like.
00:29:46.72
Sean
ai and other spaces like rei it goes out and does the research and compiles it and writes notes and does the outline and right And like.
00:29:48.95
Andrew
right
00:29:51.80
Andrew
Hm?
00:29:55.72
Sean
you know, produces it in the way that a PhD student would produce an academic paper. And then... And then it writes it. because like everyone like it kind of it almost like talks about the harness a little bit more.
00:30:06.53
Andrew
Hm?
00:30:07.32
Sean
Um... but i don't know i feel like I mean, I they think you're doing the hard thing of trying to compare in quality, so. Um, Okay, so what's that?
00:30:16.53
Andrew
One thing I will say is like.
00:30:18.66
Sean
Yeah.
00:30:18.46
Andrew
Everyone sort of says quality. But. Everyone doesn't say it with the same force. Like.
00:30:24.10
Sean
Right.
00:30:24.63
Andrew
Like. It's definitely not the primary message you get on the Adaptify homepage or the Search Atlas homepage. like theyll There will be lines here and there where it's like...
00:30:31.46
Sean
Right.
00:30:34.71
Andrew
hope Like. it's good um But it's... It's... like the bulk of their messaging is. scale.
00:30:43.03
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:30:43.39
Andrew
Speed. Cost savings. da-da-da-da-da You know?
00:30:47.86
Sean
Yeah.
00:30:47.93
Andrew
Like. Scale without headcount. Super easy.
00:30:51.55
Sean
Right, right, right
00:30:52.100
Andrew
autopilot da da da da da and so it may be enough to just say like Okay, we're... We're not going to scale your content. to a billion.
00:31:03.56
Andrew
But. Like to just. Talk. be the ones who talk obsessively about quality. And I think to your point. I think kind of what you're saying, which is smart is like.
00:31:15.91
Andrew
show don't tell a little bit of like instead of just saying it's better. Talk about why it's better. Talk about like the system you've built, the thing that you're doing to try to make. Make it better.
00:31:26.87
Sean
right
00:31:28.29
Andrew
And like lean into those so that then people can infer this is that, oh, these people care a lot about quality. Um,
00:31:34.20
Sean
right right I mean and then your content can actually be also about.
00:31:35.55
Andrew
Yeah.
00:31:38.50
Sean
Like. writing style analysis and and like what makes good what makes it like good writing how to tell what's good writing Um, And then also like how to tell if it's AI.
00:31:47.19
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:31:50.46
Sean
Things like that.
00:31:50.76
Andrew
So here... Here's another, here's a question that that this leads into. I was talking to my friend Branny. who runs Hovercode, about this yesterday.
00:31:56.14
Sean
okay
00:31:58.77
Andrew
And. For a long time, I've been really resistant to doing writing at all, like being an AI content writer, to building that into MetaMonster. I've always been trying to...
00:32:08.97
Sean
Like writing with AI or writing about AI?
00:32:09.37
Andrew
My hope. Writing with AI. writing writing with AI in Metamonster.
00:32:11.90
Sean
No, he's good. thing.
00:32:13.92
Andrew
It's like... We'll do all the pieces around it. We'll analyze. your writing and like generate.
00:32:18.91
Sean
I don't know.
00:32:19.86
Andrew
specific updates.
00:32:21.62
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:32:21.93
Andrew
um We'll do SERP analysis, we'll do metadata generation, we'll do... um we just we haven't launched it yet but we we've We're testing a content outlining tool right now.
00:32:33.62
Andrew
Um... um We're going to be getting into content suggestions.
00:32:38.65
Sean
Yeah.
00:32:38.88
Andrew
Um, But like everything but the actual. putting words on them. On the page.
00:32:44.50
Sean
Yeah.
00:32:45.06
Andrew
Um. And... you know, he was like If. Would you still be opposed to that if you felt like AI writing could genuinely be as good as a human?
00:32:58.44
Andrew
Um, End. Like. or better. Right. um And he was like. Yo. You got to think about. the plumbing company down the street.
00:33:10.30
Andrew
Like. Is there bar? Yeah. Can you get them something that's better than... What? they would have gotten otherwise.
00:33:21.45
Andrew
You know, maybe it's not the level of like. Ahrefs or... the level of like. your favorite internet writers. But is it good enough? To be.
00:33:32.42
Andrew
better than the alternative for them. um And I just. still have this resistance to it. Where I'm like. I think if humans aren't involved in the actual writing.
00:33:42.94
Andrew
in some way, shape or form. then and the actual ideating the ideas, the creation. Damn it. You're going to create slob. and slop eventually.
00:33:56.32
Andrew
stops performing. performing Um, But I'm curious. so So my question to you is... Can AI writing...
00:34:07.02
Andrew
be good enough without people. like can you do a fully automated We're going to write. things for you. You just have to edit. and and it can be good enough? Or do you think humans need to be more tightly involved in the process?
00:34:25.22
Sean
I mean how how tightly involved in the process, I guess, is. For your question. i think I think this is kind of like interesting.
00:34:33.97
Andrew
and Can you do auto blogging?
00:34:34.08
Sean
that like
00:34:36.12
Andrew
Can you do autoblogging? And can it be? Truly good.
00:34:41.32
Sean
um I mean I think so. I think I could, I think I could. Mike. Whoa, okay, no. Hold on. I think it's like a scale that looks like a sliding scale. that can sort of move more towards autoblogging over time. Um,
00:34:57.54
Sean
you know, I think I think the parallels are with like... coding right i think like three Six months ago. like a senior software engineer would have been fired if they said i write all of my code with cloud code.
00:35:12.19
Sean
Um... Uh... Like. Now. Um, I think a senior software engineer would be fired if they were saying that they don't use cloud code at all to write.
00:35:23.15
Sean
any sort of code And I understand.
00:35:24.29
Andrew
But senior suffering. is the good ones are still involved in the creation process they're still guiding they're still like kind of finding the specs.
00:35:28.76
Sean
Right.
00:35:32.20
Sean
Definitely.
00:35:32.59
Andrew
you know to varying degrees, depending on the task, like some tasks. Get. get like sort of yeah one-shotted
00:35:40.13
Sean
Right.
00:35:40.26
Andrew
Um, Thank God we're not really using that terminology anymore. Oh. um
00:35:45.51
Sean
no
00:35:46.33
Andrew
But...
00:35:47.26
Sean
Are we not?
00:35:47.35
Andrew
thank and
00:35:47.52
Sean
I feel like we are. I feel like
00:35:49.30
Andrew
Some tasks you end up going back.
00:35:50.69
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:51.90
Andrew
and forth on the plan for a while before you before you get to started building.
00:35:56.17
Sean
Definitely.
00:35:57.41
Andrew
Um,
00:35:57.93
Sean
Exactly.
00:35:58.31
Andrew
And so. Yeah, like varying degrees of of interaction. But most of the time, the good. senior engineers are still involved.
00:36:08.70
Andrew
are still going back and forth with the models they're not
00:36:11.09
Sean
Yeah.
00:36:11.21
Andrew
It's not. Just like. turn on this thing, features get cranked out.
00:36:16.19
Sean
Hmm.
00:36:16.09
Andrew
in the background without me touching them.
00:36:18.49
Sean
Yeah. 100%. 100%. um and i think that's well that's what i mean right it's like it's been a sliding scale as the harnesses get better lamon like Are the models good enough? 100%. I think this is like.
00:36:30.36
Sean
people have created really good coding harnesses no one's reading created a good writing harness or people don't. Like, sorry, the focus has been, or the money has been, is the coding harness. I don't see a lot of people making like really great writing harnesses. There's no like right like in the same way of like what that loop is or what that checklist is um I don't think like the focus has been there.
00:36:54.32
Sean
And I think that... could be something you work towards where Um, Like... Can that... uh because because because i think i was telling you i was working on like a separate side project of like an idea generation slash social media ghost writing sort of tool um
00:37:13.57
Andrew
Hm?
00:37:13.67
Sean
and a lot of the a lot of the work went into like how do we get it to like auto evolve so that the harness continues to improving become like specific or like specific to that person.
00:37:24.88
Sean
Um... Um... and What am I trying to say? i I think. I think that i think the the... you know the hard part is obviously like There's many different types of good writing Whereas coding, there's.
00:37:40.32
Sean
I mean there's still many. There's. different levels of like how much you optimize for it but at the end of the day they're the green check mark of does it work like
00:37:44.75
Andrew
right
00:37:48.97
Sean
Or not. Um... Um...
00:37:55.54
Sean
So anyway, I guess all to say, like... I think it's a sliding scale. I think like you know give it like another year or two years, we're not going to have this Hank Green situation where everyone's mad at him for using AI for his writing, for example. like People will naturally do it more and more.
00:38:10.24
Sean
Um... I think. I think there is. Um... uh, Um...
00:38:18.28
Sean
I do think that the like. Review surface. is the part that's hard about using like AI to write a lot at the same time. um because i feel like when i'm using ai to write something i'm constantly reading rereading and i still have to come back it's not any like to me to me it's not any different than like being an editor in chief at a magazine and you send notes back and you still have to read the whole thing again Or at least keep it in your memory like memory to like.
00:38:48.17
Sean
No. Um... I don't know. I'm just rambling um I don't know if I'm answering your question.
00:38:53.30
Andrew
Yeah.
00:38:54.94
Sean
but
00:38:55.100
Andrew
i mean I think you're saying...
00:38:58.52
Andrew
Yes. You think auto-blogging can be done well. but a human still needs to be involved So like pure auto blogging with zero human input.
00:39:11.02
Andrew
Not really.
00:39:12.48
Sean
I... Think high quality. I think... If we're talking like Jason Cohen blog posts. No fucking way a human has to be involved. jason Like, even if it's like Jason sitting down.
00:39:25.10
Sean
Out like. like ah Like... approving every or like coming up with the ideas Providing the general guidance for the thing and approving every outline and then getting all the words spit out I think that is 100 % possible today.
00:39:34.85
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:39:38.16
Sean
um And then at the end, Jason's still gonna have to come and read it. Copy, edit it. and also Uh... provide like contextual graphics for each thing.
00:39:50.28
Sean
But I think like putting the words together in his voice, there's enough of his content out there that like I can.
00:39:50.26
Andrew
yeah
00:39:55.72
Sean
provide you sentences that sound like jason's things Um...
00:39:59.28
Andrew
Yeah, I think this is the thing for me.
00:40:00.27
Sean
For you.
00:40:00.74
Andrew
like Good writing. is really like... Good ideas. It's like people people have been saying for years writing is thinking like the value in writing is like organizing your thoughts, figuring out your thoughts.
00:40:08.15
Sean
Yeah.
00:40:14.87
Andrew
that Good writing has a point of view. It has a...
00:40:17.48
Sean
Right.
00:40:18.03
Andrew
um I mean, this is this is what. Google tries to do with their EEAT. thing it's like we want expertise, experience, authority, trust we want. We want human perspective in in writing. um because that is what makes writing good and like right now robots can't go out and like have their own experiences and like form.
00:40:41.80
Andrew
It's not how alums work. And so.
00:40:44.20
Sean
Right.
00:40:45.75
Andrew
Yet. Good writing. Peace. good thinking and good thinking still comes from humans and so
00:40:52.81
Sean
So.
00:40:52.66
Andrew
But. There is a sliding scale of how much. Really? original thought you need in different types of content. For sure. I would 100 % acknowledge that.
00:41:05.75
Andrew
And so I think what I'm hearing from you is like. We can absolutely agree Dead. AI can help in the writing process and like a really good writing harness could make it easier for people.
00:41:19.62
Andrew
to like pull ideas out of people. And like. sort of coalesce their experience expertise. Into. into usable content, into good good content. Um,
00:41:33.90
Andrew
Um... And. It's possible that... There is. there are types of content out there that Don't. necessarily need.
00:41:45.22
Andrew
human. input. Um, human input.
00:41:51.15
Sean
Yeah.
00:41:51.32
Andrew
Um... But if you're... I do believe that if your website. ends up becoming all that type of content Um... is all autoblogs, zero human input.
00:42:04.45
Andrew
kind of content, it will eventually get slapped. Um...
00:42:07.83
Sean
Yep. Yeah.
00:42:09.60
Andrew
um
00:42:09.77
Sean
um it's the It's the mountain. that's what the that's what the uh
00:42:12.13
Andrew
Yeah. Although I am curious. like Most of the time when we see those those graphs, we're looking at big sites with big amounts of data.
00:42:20.80
Sean
and
00:42:20.80
Andrew
Um, i'm curious if anyone's done kind of this sort of experiment for. Local, small, local. Chad businesses, as I like to call them.
00:42:30.36
Sean
Yeah, yeah
00:42:30.71
Andrew
Um, Because I wonder if Google's like... The bar's gotta be lower. And so like, is Google going to be as harsh?
00:42:35.74
Sean
I mean...
00:42:38.15
Andrew
In that. area when it's like okay yeah this content's ai generated but It's better than this other site that has fucking zero content.
00:42:45.94
Sean
Yeah, so what are you gonna do clap a fucking like
00:42:45.91
Andrew
Um,
00:42:48.51
Sean
a local electrician's website that yeah i mean you don't hear about a lot of rank and rent sites getting clapped
00:42:48.86
Andrew
Plumbing company? Shh.
00:42:54.69
Sean
ah which rank and rent sites are that. right there. Um... So like... maybe i feel like the times you hear about ranking rent sites getting like Taken down is when it shares the same like Google search console account as you know they're like one of the seo agencies that are running it and like Things got affected in the like blast radius of something going down Um...
00:43:18.43
Sean
I don't know But like like this is I think the question is, you were talking about like local like like local trad businesses, but... I thought. the ICP was. Like...
00:43:29.93
Sean
web design agencies.
00:43:31.82
Andrew
Yeah, the the ICP.
00:43:32.26
Sean
That's what you're saying, like they're they're doing it.
00:43:32.84
Andrew
So the ICP is largely web design agencies, but for the most part.
00:43:37.67
Sean
Mm hmm.
00:43:37.76
Andrew
Like the... The Carol, the perfect customer. is is not a miscreant really it's it's
00:43:43.70
Sean
Yeah.
00:43:44.37
Andrew
Because you sell to... B2B SaaS companies that have like... a higher bar of competition um our perfect customer is someone who is doing.
00:43:55.36
Andrew
is an agency selling to SMEs. selling too.
00:43:58.29
Sean
Gotcha.
00:43:59.44
Andrew
More Chad businesses.
00:44:00.92
Sean
Gotcha, Gotcha, Gotcha
00:44:02.05
Andrew
Yeah, so it's like it's This is the thing when you're selling to agencies, you constantly have to have kind of two customer profiles in mind because you have to have like.
00:44:07.93
Sean
Yeah.
00:44:08.75
Andrew
Who are we selling to? But then who are they selling to? Because we we need to solve problems for both levels of customers in order to really be effective.
00:44:16.17
Sean
right Right right right. That makes sense.
00:44:19.29
Andrew
Yeah.
00:44:19.41
Sean
makes sense Sweet.
00:44:20.63
Andrew
So that's why that's why I bring that up. And that, again... dude let me let me read you this um Let me see if I can pull it up. Um, This this The profile in one line from Claude. an owner-operated marketing, SEO, or web design agency of one to 10 people that resells white label SEO to SMB clients.
00:44:41.90
Andrew
and wants to serve more of them without hiring writers or a junior SEO.
00:44:47.13
Sean
It's pretty good. Uh, Um...
00:44:50.50
Sean
That is... Should introduce you to my SEO guy who's literally that actually
00:44:57.06
Andrew
Yeah. Love that.
00:44:57.68
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. yeah Um, ah It's just, the what's his name? Jackie's... Jackie what? ah
00:45:08.94
Andrew
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:10.46
Sean
Yeah, it's just the entire advice.
00:45:11.34
Andrew
The content.
00:45:12.99
Sean
It's an entire advised community.
00:45:15.45
Sean
Yeah.
00:45:18.70
Andrew
So i think I think my takeaway is like, we're going to start getting into content, but we're going to approach it from... How do we help people create? group. like pull their expertise out and create.
00:45:28.91
Andrew
Good content.
00:45:30.04
Sean
Right.
00:45:30.37
Andrew
around it. Not. How do we just... Turn on a switch. and auto-blog you to hell.
00:45:37.24
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah Uh, Um... Well, I think... the Okay, so there's like some thoughts on the quality side too. Um, Okay, so so so one of my ah SEO guys for like the weird SEO experiments that I've been trying, right? He's in Indonesia or... i forget i don't remember if he's indonesian but like all his writers are like indonesian vas
00:46:01.99
Sean
Um, But. the reason we got connected and we started talking is we were nerding out about how to get claude to actually write like a human and like like we're trying we're going back and forth and like What is the, like...
00:46:13.27
Sean
back before skills were a thing and it was all mega prompts we were going back and forth sharing like mega prompts on like how to get Claude to write so that passes the plagiarism checker. Or not pleasure, the human.
00:46:26.81
Sean
the originality that .ai checker. Um... And he's been writing something like... random like security experiments but Like... Uh... Quality is actually... a concern.
00:46:39.34
Sean
for him like he wants to be able to kind of like say like we're the best at this sort of stuff because you pay this like low amount of money but we produce like a really high quality posts that sound like native English speakers. and and all this sort of stuff, but it's know it's all. Indonesian VAs in the back end.
00:46:55.12
Sean
Anyway. Uh, I will say that the closer... You're getting closer and closer to Black Hat SEO. So.
00:47:05.01
Andrew
Yeah, and this is the other thing.
00:47:05.17
Sean
Um,
00:47:06.14
Andrew
like i This is the thing I'm trying to evaluate here is like, where do I...
00:47:12.00
Andrew
Like, what am i what business am I going to feel good about building if I'm... Because, like, just... for Ever. I've never. Always said. I don't want to build a slot machine.
00:47:24.92
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You know, monster is in the name, just saying. ah
00:47:33.19
Andrew
Just lean into it. Be the air most monstrous self.
00:47:36.38
Sean
Exactly. Exactly. Go beat. Yeah. Maybe you yearn to be Miss Greens. You're going to be a miscreant. Um,
00:47:44.21
Andrew
Have you heard of this tool, HeyDistro? Or no, YouDistro .com? The tool is just called Distro.
00:47:53.29
Sean
You distro why oh you
00:47:56.77
Andrew
Um...
00:47:56.90
Sean
Is this nigga?
00:47:57.12
Andrew
Yeah. It looks like it's changed. Oh it's totally changed. Bummer.
00:48:03.46
Sean
Cute though.
00:48:03.95
Andrew
Uh... Um, It's very cute. yeah The branding is very cute. Um, Damn, this is... Um... It looks like they're going broader with like... the kind of like marketing agent thing. one dedicated marketing agent.
00:48:22.78
Andrew
Um, But... They seem to be doing well. Jesus Christ, Morning Brew, Shopify, LinkedIn, Beehive. Fucking hell. Um... Uh...
00:48:35.99
Andrew
but what I was going to say is that like, what their original value prop was, was like. they'd built kind of a harness, if you will. that would interview you.
00:48:46.59
Andrew
And then use those interviews to create. content.
00:48:51.31
Sean
Yeah, nice
00:48:51.84
Andrew
Um.
00:48:52.76
Sean
Same.
00:48:54.14
Andrew
is an approach that I like because it's still like... pulling in human expertise. just trying to make it easier to get that expertise out of people.
00:49:02.72
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:05.91
Andrew
um But I'm not sure. if they're still focused on that.
00:49:10.35
Sean
um they're probably I don't know
00:49:12.66
Andrew
I'm sure it's part of what they do. but
00:49:15.18
Sean
It's pretty cute. and I like it. Are you going to? I mean, is there a version of MetaMonster that's actually this, though? Like your dedicated content agent? You're dead at best.
00:49:25.44
Andrew
I want it. I don't love the dedicated agent thing. I don't think it's...
00:49:30.65
Andrew
I'm not convinced that it works Like I know there are people selling it So I guess it. Works better than Metamonster. But like.
00:49:38.93
Sean
no
00:49:40.88
Andrew
it just it doesn't feel like a very future-proof paradigm it doesn't feel like how People are gonna... think about. things in the future to me.
00:49:51.84
Sean
How are people going to think about it in the future?
00:49:55.58
Andrew
I mean, I think people are going to.
00:49:58.08
Sean
Wait, can I give you my pitch on this?
00:49:59.80
Andrew
Sure. Yeah please.
00:50:00.55
Sean
Um, I think you don't buy a I don't think you don't I think there I don't think you buy agents because everyone has their personal little make them in Adrian. their own like friday or evie or jarvis and like your jarvis is connected to other apis and does or mcps or whatever the god like Thing it is in the future And it just goes and like does things. like I don't want to talk to Distro. I don't want to talk to a company's agent. I want to talk to my guy who knows me. And like.
00:50:30.26
Sean
you know maybe maybe i have like a work version. of something and then I have my personal life one. Um, And that's it. that's um Yeah.
00:50:40.09
Andrew
i tend to think that's true i tend to agree with that um But at the same time, I also kind of feel like.
00:50:46.23
Andrew
it's probably going to mostly just be absorbed by the big model providers. Like the big model providers are going to be the personal agents. It's just like.
00:50:54.55
Sean
Sure.
00:50:54.69
Andrew
your cloud code, your...
00:50:57.38
Sean
Yeah.
00:50:58.24
Andrew
your fable, your soul, whatever.
00:51:00.33
Sean
Sure.
00:51:00.61
Andrew
is going to be that agent. Um, And the model providers are just going to get better and better at memory. and and and shit and like learning your context and everything
00:51:08.86
Sean
Yeah.
00:51:11.46
Andrew
Amen. And then.
00:51:13.30
Sean
Yeah.
00:51:13.49
Andrew
And so this is the other thing that I've thought about too, with like. as we start to do writing Um, like Should the writing should should content creation even live inside of Metamonster. Or should MetaMonster be more about...
00:51:26.34
Andrew
Like... Should Metamonster...
00:51:27.58
Sean
integrating with.
00:51:29.24
Andrew
Yeah, be more about like, hey, we integrate into your cloud. really nicely and then you can you can like create content inside of Claude. and Metamonster. gives you the interface for sharing it with your client or you know, gives you the tooling to like.
00:51:45.09
Andrew
you know analyze it from an SEO perspective. Um... gives you the... Like...
00:51:52.02
Sean
so So I don't think you can really.
00:51:51.81
Andrew
Madam.
00:51:54.14
Sean
I don't think Claude is like... I think when you were explaining to me the thing like. all this like my brain went to like lex which you were using and you really liked. Um...
00:52:04.12
Andrew
Yeah, I haven't used it in... like Over a year probably.
00:52:08.92
Sean
Fair. Fair. I think if it integrates, I guess my point is like if it integrates into like Google Docs or into. Um, Um... Or like Notion or something.
00:52:20.16
Sean
Um,
00:52:20.29
Andrew
Mm hmm.
00:52:21.72
Sean
Yeah, like I don't really want to ah Move my... content workflows into MetaMonster. I'm sorry, I don't want to work my...
00:52:29.48
Andrew
Yeah that's another thing I've been thinking about.
00:52:31.84
Sean
I don't want to work my cunt. This is like the thing with ah with with Webflow, right? It doesn't matter how good that CMS is. our clients are never going to stop writing in google docs they will always write in google docs um And.
00:52:46.22
Sean
It's almost like going back to that margins thing we were building. like It almost makes more sense to make it like a one-click publish from Google Docs to Webflow than it means. then it's, you know. anything else.
00:52:57.54
Sean
Um... And... Um, Yeah, I guess like. Those are the thoughts. like pulling ah you know what if it was a google docs extension or something like that
00:53:12.28
Andrew
Yes.
00:53:12.95
Sean
Might save you. also Also, building a good text editor is... Paint in the ass.
00:53:18.01
Andrew
Can't even guess.
00:53:18.54
Sean
Yeah.
00:53:19.92
Sean
yeah support like give me support and stuff like that
00:53:20.39
Andrew
Yeah.
00:53:26.41
Andrew
Yep. I don't. I don't disagree with you Um... There's still, I think, value. In like, from an SEO perspective.
00:53:38.98
Andrew
There's still value in...
00:53:41.57
Andrew
There's some interfaces that don't fit into Google Docs. Um... Although those have become less and less prioritized in our workflows. Amen.
00:53:49.40
Sean
can i Can I say one thing? and ah Just interrupt you really quickly.
00:53:53.03
Andrew
Okay.
00:53:53.93
Sean
I do think. Like talking about pain points. And I don't know, this is like a... Like following the jason's thing. I don't know. This is good I think SEO reporting.
00:54:05.30
Sean
Is awful everywhere
00:54:07.38
Andrew
Yes.
00:54:07.38
Sean
I've... Like... The fact that. Like...
00:54:11.57
Andrew
That's what SEO gets is trying to solve.
00:54:14.30
Sean
Yeah, but I think that's... ah SEO gets is really good if you're an SEO person.
00:54:19.05
Andrew
Yeah, it's like...
00:54:20.43
Sean
Yeah.
00:54:20.47
Andrew
They're trying to move in an SEO reporting direction, I think, but they're like.
00:54:23.22
Sean
I see.
00:54:24.32
Andrew
They're really... like an SEO analysis.
00:54:27.72
Sean
Right. Right exactly.
00:54:28.66
Andrew
tool.
00:54:29.68
Sean
Exactly. um And it's great. it's It's great for all of those reasons. um it is not great for
00:54:33.80
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:54:36.10
Sean
Like. a a client.
00:54:37.51
Andrew
a report that is easy for a client to understand.
00:54:39.91
Sean
Exactly. Exactly.
00:54:41.16
Andrew
Yeah.
00:54:41.74
Sean
um And it's not there's like it's not just the report on like SEO, but... that i as an agency owner care about i would love to have something that like Explained to because it's so intangible it's it would be great to be able to have something that explains to the client the value we've provided in the timeframe week to week.
00:55:00.16
Andrew
Mm-hmm.
00:55:02.02
Sean
And that's the missing, that's one of the missing pieces. It's a pain in the ass to kind of put together. All the tools suck. Um,
00:55:07.95
Andrew
Yep.
00:55:09.26
Sean
Um... Yeah. Yeah. Like. It makes sense to me that the SEO audit report is crappy. Because. It's confusing and the client looks at it and goes, I don't want to do anything about it. Can you solve it for me?
00:55:23.55
Sean
that makes sense to me but once it comes to like Every single day, like the day in and day out. I wish I had something that just like auto created a brief of like, here's what. Here's what you've done, and this is what's improved.
00:55:35.78
Sean
Um... And like the keyword, like. Because then, like, when I set keywords in Metamonster, that's me creating, like, intent, basically.
00:55:43.24
Andrew
Hm?
00:55:43.20
Sean
And all these things are intent. Um... So like. you know that I'm intending to make this page better. So tell me if I made it better or worse. Um, Yeah.
00:55:54.41
Sean
Yeah.
00:55:54.51
Andrew
Yeah, that is 100 % something we we think about all the time. that we don't do well yet. Um, He's like... End. and the other piece of it Is.
00:56:07.90
Andrew
Amen. But, but yeah, the question mark I have is like. Can you do that? Well, if you're not the tool where people are doing the work like like Maybe Metamonster is well-situated to do that.
00:56:21.02
Andrew
Because, like... people do the work in metamonster we can report on the work and then we we because we know exactly what work was done, we can... Like, back to the work. Um,
00:56:32.74
Andrew
Or we can integrate with SEO Gits to track the work or whatever. Um,
00:56:36.38
Sean
Mm-hmm.
00:56:38.09
Andrew
SEO Gits is trying to start doing like... Change tracking. where they just automatically
00:56:43.53
Sean
Nice.
00:56:43.44
Andrew
keep an eye on your website and track anything that changes.
00:56:46.24
Sean
be amazing.
00:56:46.53
Andrew
And then me. make it easy to like. Choke. to like sort of show. Did this change do anything? Yes or no? Um.
00:56:55.05
Sean
That's pretty cool.
00:56:56.58
Andrew
um and so there you know there is another way to approach it which is like hey we're not going to care about doing the work we're just going to care about like monitoring Dear. your website. But.
00:57:07.74
Sean
It's pretty cool. Nice. Sweet. Cool.
00:57:12.47
Andrew
So let's think about. um continuing to try to find You know. what it is that most agencies want. and care enough about.
00:57:23.34
Andrew
So like. Put down a credit card.
00:57:29.16
Sean
I think...
00:57:30.54
Sean
How are you gonna test the... any of the ideas. This time.
00:57:36.88
Andrew
Um...
00:57:40.02
Andrew
So I mean some of The. problem aware aspect. of of all of this like this is what part of why we're going to the conference like our plan is to just talk to as many web designers as we can at this conference web designers web developers and just talk to them about like how they handle seo today and like get a sense of like how big of a pain point SEO is for them.
00:58:00.67
Andrew
um And then we're we're running a couple of like web design focused webinars the week after. And so the hope is like. Yeah, just... Okay. Are we seeing this turn into sales? and and Yo.
00:58:14.34
Andrew
as we come to understand the problem. Yeah. Like... How many people? are thinking about seo how many people's clients are asking them to do seo how many people like do people feel like they're losing clients over not doing seo do people feel like Um.
00:58:31.19
Andrew
Yeah. just A lot of it's going to be kind of customer discovery, just trying to understand. more deeply like the pinpoint from their perspective. Um...
00:58:42.48
Andrew
And then... As far as... Yo. what to build next. that'll kind of flow out of some of that and Right now we're... we're thinking about content and how do we do content well.
00:58:56.79
Andrew
Um, Reporting was is another thing we've talked about for a long time. It's like, how do we improve reporting? We do some reporting now. um Like... And Metamonster. when you generate changes you can generate a shareable link to send to your client that shows in like Yep. Here's what we changed with this page.
00:59:16.23
Andrew
Um, And you can generate like kind of recommendations with like. a rationale behind them of like, Hey, Here's here's why we changed this. Here's why we're recommending this. and Um,
00:59:27.65
Andrew
ah You can share this new content outline with them. Be like, hey, here's what we're going to write. Um, But like we haven't gotten into actually tracking results. of the work.
00:59:39.57
Andrew
um
00:59:41.77
Andrew
um But yeah, i think I think right now we're just... trying to lean into customer discovery. and Yeah. Going to this conference, going to try to talk to a bunch of people and understand. Yep. C word.
00:59:52.37
Sean
Are there?
00:59:53.47
Andrew
where they light up what they're paying for. day.
00:59:56.28
Sean
I wonder. um This is like just the hunch, but I bet there's also way more. Like. website development. designer.
01:00:07.27
Sean
meetups than there are like SEO.
01:00:09.93
Andrew
Mm hmm.
01:00:09.96
Sean
Meetups.
01:00:11.13
Andrew
Yeah.
01:00:10.91
Sean
Which... it's like easy like way to get in their face and talk to them about it So. Cool. I'm excited for you to WordCamp. I wish I knew you were in Arizona. I would have just. you know met you there Um,
01:00:23.35
Andrew
That would be fun.
01:00:24.33
Sean
Yeah.
01:00:25.28
Andrew
Um, When are you coming to Mexico City?
01:00:29.78
Sean
Uh,
01:00:36.51
Sean
think we're at. time. it's a We're at the hour mark.
01:00:38.86
Andrew
but
01:00:41.64
Sean
I don't know. um
01:00:42.96
Andrew
Singha to Madhuri.
01:00:44.33
Sean
some At some point this year. I don't know what you said to me, but it sounded like you said something about my mom. Oh.
01:00:50.38
Andrew
and I just...
01:00:51.40
Sean
Uh... What?
01:00:52.90
Andrew
Yeah.
01:00:54.04
Sean
what What did you say to me? What is Tango 2? okay whatever um
01:00:57.96
Andrew
It's like the strongest curse in Mexico. It's like motherfucker.
01:01:01.00
Sean
Um...
01:01:01.42
Andrew
Um.
01:01:01.65
Sean
Sick Sick, sick. You'll have to teach me that off the call. um I don't know, before the end of the year, hopefully, fingers crossed. We'll see. No promises. Yeah.
01:01:10.62
Andrew
Cool.
01:01:11.07
Sean
I do want to come. It's sense. Fun.
01:01:14.02
Andrew
That's great.
01:01:14.53
Sean
Yeah.
01:01:14.55
Andrew
I love it
01:01:15.04
Sean
Especially I was telling you for those For everyone who can't see Andrew, I was telling him that he now looks like he knows where the best tacos in town are. Uh, with his new haircut, so. Um,
01:01:26.61
Sean
Cool man.
01:01:27.04
Andrew
Watch us on YouTube to see. my constantly evolving hairstyles.
01:01:31.34
Sean
Yeah. Yeah. Follow along for our hair journey. Alright. Oh, no.
01:01:38.99
Andrew
Can't wait to vlog my trip to Turkey.
01:01:42.40
Sean
Wait, what? Oh, oh, because of him.
01:01:44.19
Andrew
To uh... to fix the receding hairline.
01:01:46.34
Sean
I see.
01:01:46.54
Andrew
but
01:01:46.55
Sean
I see. Okay. Sorry, I didn't get that. It went it went over my... okay
01:01:53.69
Andrew
Cool.
01:01:53.29
Sean
Bye.
01:01:54.14
Andrew
be Good to be back on the mics with you, dude.
01:01:54.28
Sean
See you later. Good to see you. bye
