ABOUT THIS EPISODE
What if the point of AI wasn't to make more, but to work less?
This is the thing everyone said AI should do that nobody's actually doing. All the capitalists want to use AI to make more money, not work less.
In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 15), Sean and Andrew dig into the team that used AI to move to a four-day week instead of squeezing out more, and the WordCamp pivot it mirrors: Andrew walking away from SEO autopilot to build content you're actually proud to publish. They cover why platform risk still burns big companies, the four pillars of content that survive after the AI tricks stop working, and why "what stays stable" beats every AEO hack.
Links:
- Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
- Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
- MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
- Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
- Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
- Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
- Margins: http://margins.so/
- Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/
For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/
Transcript:
00:00.95
Sean
Hello.
00:02.69
Andrew
Hello, my friends.
00:04.02
Sean
How you doing? How was WordCamp?
00:04.96
Andrew
Good. WordCamp was... Fucking awesome. um interesting like This is my first WordCamp ever. WordCamp is definitely in decline.
00:14.91
Sean
ah
00:17.37
Andrew
At least Recamp US is in decline.
00:17.52
Sean
Oh. uh-oh
00:19.76
Andrew
Done. ah
00:21.27
Sean
is there Is there other WordCamp? Is that like WordCamp Belgium?
00:23.90
Andrew
They're all over the world.
00:24.30
Sean
or
00:25.14
Andrew
There's like WordCamp Europe, my... uh my one of my new friends that i made at the conference is going to word camp manila next week Um... It's ah yeah, they have them all over the world. And I think they're.
00:38.38
Andrew
They're still bigger. They're actually now bigger overseas than they are in in the US. which is interesting
00:45.15
Sean
That's it.
00:45.09
Andrew
um we
00:46.87
Sean
Sense.
00:47.60
Andrew
Yeah.
00:47.49
Sean
Ish. Maybe.
00:48.39
Andrew
Yeah.
00:48.20
Sean
I don't know.
00:48.90
Andrew
issue. Um,
00:49.85
Sean
Yeah.
00:50.63
Andrew
I think. we're from the the cheesemade that i got from people who our repeat attendees is that WordCamp US has been in decline since something happened two years ago. What what might have happened two years ago? I can't remember.
01:06.94
Andrew
Amen. any Any big drama in the in the WordPress space? that you can remember?
01:13.39
Sean
No. I block that out.
01:15.00
Andrew
fifty
01:15.04
Sean
From my memory. Um, Yeah, there was a, you know, there's... For some reason, a lot of people who are on WordPress. Um, complaining about something.
01:25.31
Sean
And it brought us a lot of Webflow customers. so
01:27.59
Andrew
Hell yeah. Let's go.
01:29.99
Sean
Um, uh,
01:33.65
Sean
Yeah. i'm I'm kind of curious. like like The shockwave that must have been across. I didn't realize there were so many word camps. So I wonder if like...
01:45.34
Sean
What happens in all those WordCamps, all the same, like... throughout that entire year that feels
01:51.35
Andrew
no I know.
01:51.62
Sean
You know?
01:52.74
Andrew
um I mean, I got a little bit from my my friends who've been going for years. Okay.
01:57.64
Sean
ahha
01:58.98
Andrew
Uh, But. Yeah, like WordCamp US used to be like 2 ,000 to 2 ,500 people. They also they scheduled it in Phoenix in August this year, which I think. a lot of people were like i think that's part of the reason it's not doing well although At the same time, in the back of my head, I was like Black Hat and Def Conner in August every year and fuck tons of people go.
02:18.45
Andrew
Um.
02:19.80
Sean
Yeah.
02:20.06
Andrew
So I don't know that that really impacted it. But yeah, this year was like. I think. one of my friends saw the registered attendee list, and it was 900 people. down from like 2 ,500 a few years ago.
02:33.16
Sean
Oh shit. God damn.
02:34.28
Andrew
Yeah.
02:35.81
Sean
Um.
02:36.57
Andrew
Not a great sign.
02:37.93
Sean
for For those not in. the web space. Um, Um,
02:46.43
Andrew
He's...
02:46.39
Sean
The... Do you want to, I don't know.
02:48.63
Andrew
I got, I got.
02:48.83
Sean
You're the expert now, so.
02:50.72
Andrew
So I got, I'm not an expert, but. All right. So one of the... original co-creators co-founders of wordpress um I got.
03:01.61
Andrew
I got yelled at by a friend, not yelled at, but like I got chastised by a friend for calling him the founder of WordPress. Someone was like. More like the forker of WordPress. um
03:10.74
Sean
Hell yeah.
03:14.01
Andrew
Um, Uh, Matt. Mullenweg? Is that his name? um Uh... Anyway. WordPress mat. um a couple years ago went Like, got really... pissy at at a Word can.
03:30.22
Andrew
during a keynote. Um, at WP Engine, who's like one of the largest WordPress hosts. and a competitor so like it's all complicated because like WordPress is WordPress is...
03:45.18
Andrew
a free open source tool. that is owned by a nonprofit. um and the WordPress trademark is owned by a nonprofit. Matt also owns... automatic which is a for-profit business that offer that owns wordpress .com a for-profit WordPress hosting service um and a bunch of other WordPress tools including WooCommerce and Pressable and some others.
04:08.67
Andrew
Um, and Um, Automatic. has a like perpetual license from WordPress .org, the nonprofit, to use the WordPress trademark.
04:20.96
Andrew
Um, And a couple years ago, he got mad at WP Engine, who's one of their biggest competitors, um who basically built their entire reputation on...
04:32.11
Andrew
Hey, your product kind of sucks. We're going to do it better and charge more for it. And people loved them for years and years. Um, I think some people have started to leave WP Engine. I don't know.
04:43.08
Andrew
what the state of the things is right now. But like for years and years, people loved WP Engine because they were just like rock solid. Awesome support. And like they charged a premium for it.
04:53.56
Sean
And WP Engine also owns... um the custom field the advanced custom fields plugin All right.
05:00.36
Andrew
Yes, they own a couple of like very successful WordPress plugins as well. And that got all pissy that they were like, using WP in their name. um that they even though like everyone in the wordpress community uses wp in their name Um,
05:16.26
Andrew
They were using WP in their name, and he was like, you're not contributing enough to open source. You're not contributing enough to WordPress .org. and
05:24.72
Sean
Open source. Oh, so the name. What I what i call my wallet.
05:28.52
Andrew
Yes.
05:29.19
Sean...
