James: Welcome to part two of Kate Seseljas story. If you haven't listened, go back and listen to part one. In this episode, we get really deep, really vulnerable, and it's very emotional. We also hear about her founding the Hope Project. Please enjoy this final part of the conversation with Kate Seselja I hope that you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I enjoyed recording it. This podcast is an active service that my guests and I offer to spread a message of hope in recovery. you could do me a favor and rate the podcast on your preferred platform, ⁓ share it with friend or post it on your socials, it would mean the world to me. A trigger warning, on Slaying Cyber we talk honestly about drug use, suicide and the chaos that comes along with addiction, as well as recovery and hope. Please only listen if you feel it's safe to do so. Take care of yourself. You can also reach out directly on Instagram at Slaying Soba Pod. I love hearing from you. Your support keeps me inspired to bring you more stories of strength, sobriety and hope. Have a great day.
speaker-1: if gambling makes you irrational ⁓ when in the zone as you described, ⁓ what behaviors ⁓ did act on that you wouldn't of otherwise?
speaker-0: ⁓ i the worst day I I've talked about it on ⁓ other podcasts was I I walked into a club and for some reason was drawn to a machine that looked like it was about to tick over to the ten grand jackpot and thought, ⁓ this is any second this is gonna pay out that So I put a few hundred in I Put a few more hundred in. go access a next thousand dollars thinking how is this not ticked over yet? Like this is crazy. Now I'm three grand deep thinking it's surely it's going to pay now. Go access the last thousand I can out of the ATM. So I've been back to the ATM multiple times by this stage. Not no one's said a thing. ⁓ put that Four grand in no. Then I'm so stressed out at that point that the bank across the road I go over and pull money straight out of our mortgage, bring over another couple of grand in cash, put that in. Still doesn't pay out. I got to put that day twelve thousand dollars into that machine and it still didn't pay the ten grand. And walked out absolutely destroyed. I I can't believe I didn't take my life that evening. ⁓
speaker-1: So you got out and you sat in your car. And through your mind, what were you thinking?
speaker-0: ⁓ is this even legal? How How did this happen again? Like, you know Just beating my this was you know probably Yeah. But never to that extent. That was the worst day. Like normally ⁓ four grand would be the limit. But this was this was a horrific day of trying to make sense of this engagement with this machine.
speaker-1: And you had family at home, Kate?
speaker-0: I have ⁓ yeah, my children were at school.
speaker-1: At the time. Yeah. And your partner?
speaker-0: He w he was working.
speaker-1: Did he know how bad it was?
speaker-0: He knew at times we'd have i you know, a blow up. he tried to as family members often do, unresourcefully use shame to try and change my behaviour. and not understand the gravity of what I was experiencing. And rightly so, he's in his own pain. He's in his own distress. He's he's in his own not understanding that
speaker-1: I feel yeah.
speaker-0: This addiction is impacting the whole of us, not just me. and but again, at that point there was no awareness of family and others impacted by gambling harm are able to access support services, financial care services. None of that was accessible or or visible at that point.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: It is. ⁓ and because of the way the industry has controlled the narrative very carefully, it sets it up like this is ⁓ just selfish behaviour of an individual rather than understanding that they are being irreparably harmed by a product by design.
speaker-1: Mm. Was that your rock bottom moment?
speaker-0: It wasn't. It was one of them, but it wasn't. I yeah, I I think that after that day I just it wasn't long after that, probably another six months down the track that I almost took my life.
speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-0: In january twenty twelve.
speaker-1: What led to that?
speaker-0: Just the mental and physical exhaustion of trying to navigate this environment and feeling so isolated, so alone, so ill equipped to be able to exist ⁓ in that state any longer. I had tried to get help numerous times and it hadn't worked. And ⁓ you know, the the help services back then were just woeful, absolutely either non existent or woeful. And that again part of the design like just we wouldn't wanna actually provide anything that was useful to people or even acknowledge it as the harm that's occurring in in our communities, we'll just keep pretending like it's not happening. yeah, it it was the hardest years ⁓ from, you know, age eighteen to thirty two when when I almost took my life. it was
speaker-1: Mm. What kept you tethered to life? What gave you hope?
speaker-0: My children. They were and are the lights that kept me here and I But on the other hand, at that point I had such destroyed self esteem that I didn't feel worthy of them. And that was the constant battle in my head is are they better off with me or without me?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And I I just didn't know how to function anymore. ⁓ I hated everything that had happened i in the gambling space. I wished I could go back and have never ever gone into a club and never used a poker machine. That was just haunting me. day in, day out. And when I talk to people now about it, ⁓ and help them out of that darkness, I realized while I was focusing on what ⁓ h how much I hated myself, how much I'd lost, I was focused on the past. I wasn't focused on anything positive in the future because it had robbed me from being able to see that there was a future ⁓ other than what was I I was living day to day. So That was a huge kind of mental shift that happened after that point in twenty twelve. I met with an amazing counsellor that morning after my husband drove me ⁓ to Mission Australia who had the gambling contract in ACT at that time. And this woman helped me to r reconnect with the truth of who I was as a human being and not ⁓ identify as the thing that I'd been struggling with, but to reconnect to my humanness. so absolutely Yeah. As a friend, as a wife.
speaker-1: As Dawson? And as a mother,
speaker-0: So all the compliments that people had actually paid me over those fifteen years that I'd just said, you know, yeah, but if you really knew me, you wouldn't say that. You know, I'd robbed myself of that truth because of the way I was viewing myself. And that's the distortion of shame. the way I describe it to people is the the threshold I walked through ⁓ the doorway of a club, it was like those doors sealed me in a plastic bag of shame. And that plastic bag was s I was slowly running out of oxygen. You know, I almost took my own life. And that The the thing about this plastic bag of shame is you know, if you try and look through plastic, it it distorts your vision, you know, nothing seems clear. and that's how I was, you know, unaware but I was looking at everything in my life through this distorted lens and nothing made sense. Because I was suffocating, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. ⁓ that's really beautiful and and also really haunting, and I feel ⁓ I felt that so deeply because I've been there, you know, and yeah, it was quite similar as well. Like when I was at the depth of my addiction, I had lost hope entirely. And with deep shame and deep regret. ⁓ I found like drinking was my thing and that I had so much shame and regret and remorse that it was that feeling of when I picked up a can of drink and it went down me and it would sit and burn inside my stomach, but my mind would switch off and it was like I switched off all that shame for a very small period of time, you know? And to me That's what addiction is, right? You We talk about the disease of addiction, but there's that dis- ease with life itself. And it's really hard to describe. And we're talking about substance versus gambling. Like they're two totally different things, but the way that you just described that gave me shivers and and goosebumps on my arms because I could really relate and thank you so much. I ⁓ your husband, when you I don't know whether you confided in him, but when he helped you seek this person out, that's a really magical moment.
speaker-0: Hm. I I think that night really shook him as far as it actually disrupted him out of his pain to realise I was drowning and he it's that's the funny thing about, you know, when you're in close proximity to somebody and They're in pain and you're in pain, but you are trying so hard to get the other person to validate and see your own pain that you don't have the space or the awareness to be able to recognize the other persons. You're you're too busy operating from your own sense of righteousness or perspective. And it that moment, Yeah, he he got it and he understood that this was life or death for me and he set aside his pain to meet me in mine and that w compassion is so necessary to create safety for people. to be able to ⁓ meet help where they need to be and to not be met with judgment, but to be met with helping them build new skills of awareness, firing up curiosity to understand what things have impacted them that they can't see if they're only looking at it through what's wrong with me? Why am I broke? You know, does that make sense?
speaker-1: Yeah. And it's heroic, you know, our pa the partners of those suffering from gambling harm or or addiction to step 'cause they are in great pain, our loved ones, and they are often the heroes. But to step out of their pain to look after you and to help you get help is heroic. You know, they are you know, without them Maybe we're not here, Kate, you know. ⁓ Certainly in my situation without my wife pulling me out of a pub by the short and curlies, so to speak. ⁓ you know, she was my saviour. And I'll forever be indebted and forever be grateful to her.
speaker-0: Hmm. Mm I I'm you know, we have been married nearly twenty seven years and we have a little granddaughter and six incredible children and I don't take any of that for granted. ⁓ because it almost wasn't the case. And you know, I just went formal shopping with my daughter this afternoon, you know, like those moments Our everything and I I really thought that I had disqualified myself from being worthy of those moments to be able to be the mum that I wanted to be because of an impact that happened to me at age eighteen and when I talked to my kids and said, you know, you're eighteen, ⁓ you know Imagine if somebody put a you know, sealed you up in shame and made you feel like that's it. We're gonna judge you for this one moment for the rest of your life. How would that make you feel? And they were like, That would be awful, you know? I I I would hate to be like judged by something that I did now, forever, you know? And I said, Yeah, that's the weight of what I lived with for fifteen years, thinking I've made this mistake at 18 and I'll never be able to rectify it. Like I'm always gonna be broken and that was such a mental shift to realise and do you know who reconnected me to my humanness? My eldest son, ⁓ the ⁓ the morning after I almost took my life, he he noticed that I hadn't come home and everyone was looking for me that night and He just said to me, Mum, like what was going on? Like everyone was so worried and I just said to him, Mate, I've made so many mistakes, I don't know what to do and he just goes, Mum, everyone makes mistakes.
speaker-1: ⁓
speaker-0: And whoa did that just hit me and I thought you're so right. You're so right. Why did I think I had to be perfect in order for any of it to be okay? You know, like it was such a huge moment of wow, yeah, there isn't anyone that is perfect. We're all human, we're all fallible, and yet I've been thinking I've wrecked it. It's all it's all shit, you know, like I there's no there's no recovering this moment. And How amazing to get handed back my humanity by the human I created.
speaker-1: Yes, it's humbling, right?
speaker-0: It was such a powerful moment and then that moment coupled with the compassion and curiosity that my counsellor then, you know, brought into my consciousness, it was just like I was on a completely different trajectory.
speaker-1: Mm. Tell us when we talk about suicide I think it's hopelessness, isn't it? Where you've got no you just can't see the future. There's just you can't get over the past and you can't see the future at all. You've now got an organization called the Hope Project. Tell us about that.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I I never ever thought that I would share this journey publicly. when I was experiencing it I was explicit with my husband that if anyone ever found out about this I would I would take my life. Like I was that protective of what I thought was ⁓ just unimaginable shame and when when I reconnected with my humanness and actually saw the gambling landscape for what it was, I thought, hold on a minute. Being silent and just being okay with my own recovery is not what is needed here. There need what's the exact opposite of paralyzing shame? Well it's owning your your story. It's ⁓ being okay with people seeing your humanness and going, judge it, don't judge it, I don't care, you know, I'm okay with my humanness, whether you are or not, is is on you. And I knew that looking at the twelve, fifteen years that I struggled with gambling, as I'd accumulated insights that I knew could be helpful for others. ⁓ that y it it's re looking at your past ⁓ not as ⁓ the most horrible part of your life but as as valuable learnings and that nothing is wasted. Nothing that you've experienced is wasted if you share it as learning for others. And That doesn't have to be publicly. It can be in private moments of just being vulnerable with another human and ⁓ saying, It's okay, I've been there too.
speaker-1: Yeah. Because it becomes very isolating addiction. Abs yeah. Y you become really insula, like you said, you know, that zone or that moment. And others that are in that, they feel isolated. So to understand that there's community out there, there's lived experience, there's help as well. People can not feel alone and they can feel supported and they can feel loved. 'Cause we've both been in positions where I'm sure if you were like me, I am the only person in the world going through this, my life is completely fucked and I am alone. And I am hopeless.
speaker-0: Absolutely. That is absolutely not the case. And especially with gambling harm, ⁓ you know, realizing that we were the nation experiencing the highest levels of gambling harm in the world, it it blew my mind how many people were just like me that had navigated this path all by themselves, or taken their lives because they felt that same sense of hopelessness that I felt. And I thought, no, I'm not going to allow this to continue. And when after my recovery journey I actually trained to take over the group that I'd been part of. And then I'm sitting there every ⁓ Monday night waiting for people whose lives had already imploded to walk through the door and I thought, no, I've got to go out publicly and talk to people and meet them where they're at and not wait for them to get to crisis point. People need to understand that this is addiction by design. This is a very rapidly growing public health crisis in this country that is being just horrifically dealt with. And ⁓ so I tackle the Hope Project is about meeting people where they're at actually talking to people experiencing it, educating communities, schools, workplaces, you name it, w I'll talk wherever. And then also fighting it politically, ⁓ on the policy and advocacy landscape. So at both ends, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Because that's the way that it is. You can help one individual but great change happens with great things and you know, like I said at the start, your work in advocacy and and parliamentary reform and parliamentary change is where real change happens, isn't it?
speaker-0: Yeah, and prov put putting pressure on it and being that voice of lived experience in that room has been a privilege that I don't just share my own stuff, I bring every story that I've encountered with me into those rooms because they otherwise it's just industry talking. It's just industry barking what they want, what they need, how they can survive. And it's like you don't even know what it's like to be experiencing gambling harm and fighting for financial survival in this economy. Like it's so despicable the way that they just fight so hard to protect their profits and do not give a shit about the people that they harm.
speaker-1: And you speak like your story is very emotive, but you're obviously a an articulate and a clever person, you know, ⁓ well educated and and so when you tell your story it's really meaningful and it's really impactful and when I first came across you I was like, I've gotta meet this Kate person, she's a badass ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: In a good way, in a good way. Hey, I have a confession to make. I worry about my gambling sometimes. I gamble. ⁓ I'm an addict in recovery from substance, namely alcohol. But I I do worry about my gambling behaviour. Is there things that I c should be keeping an eye out for in the way that I behave around gambling?
speaker-0: ⁓ that is a really great point because this landscape has not it's never been about your behavior. It's about how the industry is behaving with you. So even if you try and create your own parameters and your own safeguards and your own this is how I'm going to engage with it, this is a very different beast. This is a a very cunning Apex predator, meaning there is no one that is bringing them down. They are operating with full autonomy to destroy human lives and they do it with ease. So they have AI, they have all kinds of technologies at their fingertips to know all these data points about you, how to exploit you, what you like to eat if you're in a venue, what drinks you have. they it's called Know Your Customer. And they know so much about you and how to exploit you. So when I talk to say women who are like, ⁓ well, I just want to have a flutter on Melbourne Cup, okay, great. So you've downloaded an app and you intended to put a a bet on for one race. But guess what? That app now has three hundred and sixty five access to you.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: twenty four hours a day and it knows your algorithm, what you watch on TV and who you engage with, it's going to pump your feed with social media influencers selling you how to gamble. It's going to ⁓ s offer you incentives. They're called inducements. And it's going to pump your texts, emails, you name it, it has access to you. Ping, ping, ping. Keeping gambling front of mind for you to engage with in a completely different way than what you intended to do.
speaker-1: It's interesting. So horses is my thing. So I'm a Saturday afternoon horse racing punter. I've always loved like the studying of the form, the numbers, all of this. and you know, I don't get the inducements. As a matter of fact, I don't get like the bonus bets and these sorts of things when I'm winning. But when my account runs low on a Friday afternoon at X time, I'll get a You know, here's your deposit match offer. And ⁓ just when I'm thinking I'll have a weekend off, it's you know, that's put in front of me on a Friday afternoon. Correct. As you say, it's by design. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: So that's ⁓ really great that you're having that insight into how it's engaging with you. Because it's never about how you intend to engage with it. This is how they want they're they're ten steps ahead of every person. So as you said, if you are winning, they're gonna slow down your bets. They'll either close down your account if you are super duper winning, they will ⁓ Yeah. They will they will do everything in their power to block that from occurring. And then when as soon as they've got you in a distressed state where you start chasing losses, then they will pump your, you know, incentives, inducements through the roof. And this is money that they know that they'll get back and then some. So it's it might represent to the person, ⁓ they're giving me this ⁓ like It's no different from that two hundred dollars I won on that first night that was a calculated bait ⁓ that they knew they would get back a millionfold.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like going fishing. You catch your first fish and you want to go back, don't you? And then you never catch a fish again.
speaker-0: Yeah. So I there's ⁓ one guy that I work with in the US, he's like all all wins are just future losses.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Well it it's it's often true, isn't it? Like how many people so many people are putting money into their account, particularly when it's digital, but how many are taking money out? It would be easy for me to say to you, How much have you lost? I I think a better question is what did gambling take away from UK?
speaker-0: it it almost took everything away from me. ⁓ it there there's a line ⁓ in a song that I love and it says Don't let the darkness fool you you know all it almost fooled me into thinking that this was all my life was ever going to be and I I'm so grateful to still be here, but to also have the privilege of walking with other people and helping them to turn that light back on in their life. And you know, I gave a a talk to a group of ⁓ indigenous ⁓ young men the other day and they one guy goes, ⁓ you know, do you want to be a millionaire? And I said, Actually, yes, I want to positively impact the lives of a million people. I don't chase money. I don't chase money anymore. I chase humans. I chase people who are harmed by products and industries that knowingly do it for profit. ⁓ and I help restore hope in their own dignity in their own humanness and ⁓ help them absolutely change the trajectory of their lives.
speaker-1: Perhaps the greatest win is in someone's heart. And I think you're doing that one person at a time towards a million people, Kate.
speaker-0: As soon as somebody says, Wow, you've helped me hate the industry and not myself I'm like, Bingo, I've won. Yeah. There's another person that's that's on board, you know? And well
speaker-1: Well through today's conversation I've got no doubt that that will occur and I'm really grateful for you joining me today and ⁓ keep doing what you're doing. You're doing amazing work and thank you for all from all of us at Slaying Sober.
speaker-0: Thank you for all that you do and the the vulnerable and honest conversations that you are having with people 'cause it it's everything. No one needs surface interactions. We need deep authenticity and vulnerability to create change.
speaker-1: If we keep telling stories, it's a it's a great start in doing it. Thanks for your vulnerability today. I've felt really joyed by this conversation. Thanks, Kate. See ya.
speaker-0: Me to buy.
speaker-1: if gambling makes you irrational ⁓ when in the zone as you described, ⁓ what behaviors ⁓ did act on that you wouldn't of otherwise?
speaker-0: ⁓ i the worst day I I've talked about it on ⁓ other podcasts was I I walked into a club and for some reason was drawn to a machine that looked like it was about to tick over to the ten grand jackpot and thought, ⁓ this is any second this is gonna pay out that So I put a few hundred in I Put a few more hundred in. go access a next thousand dollars thinking how is this not ticked over yet? Like this is crazy. Now I'm three grand deep thinking it's surely it's going to pay now. Go access the last thousand I can out of the ATM. So I've been back to the ATM multiple times by this stage. Not no one's said a thing. ⁓ put that Four grand in no. Then I'm so stressed out at that point that the bank across the road I go over and pull money straight out of our mortgage, bring over another couple of grand in cash, put that in. Still doesn't pay out. I got to put that day twelve thousand dollars into that machine and it still didn't pay the ten grand. And walked out absolutely destroyed. I I can't believe I didn't take my life that evening. ⁓
speaker-1: So you got out and you sat in your car. And through your mind, what were you thinking?
speaker-0: ⁓ is this even legal? How How did this happen again? Like, you know Just beating my this was you know probably Yeah. But never to that extent. That was the worst day. Like normally ⁓ four grand would be the limit. But this was this was a horrific day of trying to make sense of this engagement with this machine.
speaker-1: And you had family at home, Kate?
speaker-0: I have ⁓ yeah, my children were at school.
speaker-1: At the time. Yeah. And your partner?
speaker-0: He w he was working.
speaker-1: Did he know how bad it was?
speaker-0: He knew at times we'd have i you know, a blow up. he tried to as family members often do, unresourcefully use shame to try and change my behaviour. and not understand the gravity of what I was experiencing. And rightly so, he's in his own pain. He's in his own distress. He's he's in his own not understanding that
speaker-1: I feel yeah.
speaker-0: This addiction is impacting the whole of us, not just me. and but again, at that point there was no awareness of family and others impacted by gambling harm are able to access support services, financial care services. None of that was accessible or or visible at that point.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: It is. ⁓ and because of the way the industry has controlled the narrative very carefully, it sets it up like this is ⁓ just selfish behaviour of an individual rather than understanding that they are being irreparably harmed by a product by design.
speaker-1: Mm. Was that your rock bottom moment?
speaker-0: It wasn't. It was one of them, but it wasn't. I yeah, I I think that after that day I just it wasn't long after that, probably another six months down the track that I almost took my life.
speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah.
speaker-0: In january twenty twelve.
speaker-1: What led to that?
speaker-0: Just the mental and physical exhaustion of trying to navigate this environment and feeling so isolated, so alone, so ill equipped to be able to exist ⁓ in that state any longer. I had tried to get help numerous times and it hadn't worked. And ⁓ you know, the the help services back then were just woeful, absolutely either non existent or woeful. And that again part of the design like just we wouldn't wanna actually provide anything that was useful to people or even acknowledge it as the harm that's occurring in in our communities, we'll just keep pretending like it's not happening. yeah, it it was the hardest years ⁓ from, you know, age eighteen to thirty two when when I almost took my life. it was
speaker-1: Mm. What kept you tethered to life? What gave you hope?
speaker-0: My children. They were and are the lights that kept me here and I But on the other hand, at that point I had such destroyed self esteem that I didn't feel worthy of them. And that was the constant battle in my head is are they better off with me or without me?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And I I just didn't know how to function anymore. ⁓ I hated everything that had happened i in the gambling space. I wished I could go back and have never ever gone into a club and never used a poker machine. That was just haunting me. day in, day out. And when I talk to people now about it, ⁓ and help them out of that darkness, I realized while I was focusing on what ⁓ h how much I hated myself, how much I'd lost, I was focused on the past. I wasn't focused on anything positive in the future because it had robbed me from being able to see that there was a future ⁓ other than what was I I was living day to day. So That was a huge kind of mental shift that happened after that point in twenty twelve. I met with an amazing counsellor that morning after my husband drove me ⁓ to Mission Australia who had the gambling contract in ACT at that time. And this woman helped me to r reconnect with the truth of who I was as a human being and not ⁓ identify as the thing that I'd been struggling with, but to reconnect to my humanness. so absolutely Yeah. As a friend, as a wife.
speaker-1: As Dawson? And as a mother,
speaker-0: So all the compliments that people had actually paid me over those fifteen years that I'd just said, you know, yeah, but if you really knew me, you wouldn't say that. You know, I'd robbed myself of that truth because of the way I was viewing myself. And that's the distortion of shame. the way I describe it to people is the the threshold I walked through ⁓ the doorway of a club, it was like those doors sealed me in a plastic bag of shame. And that plastic bag was s I was slowly running out of oxygen. You know, I almost took my own life. And that The the thing about this plastic bag of shame is you know, if you try and look through plastic, it it distorts your vision, you know, nothing seems clear. and that's how I was, you know, unaware but I was looking at everything in my life through this distorted lens and nothing made sense. Because I was suffocating, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. ⁓ that's really beautiful and and also really haunting, and I feel ⁓ I felt that so deeply because I've been there, you know, and yeah, it was quite similar as well. Like when I was at the depth of my addiction, I had lost hope entirely. And with deep shame and deep regret. ⁓ I found like drinking was my thing and that I had so much shame and regret and remorse that it was that feeling of when I picked up a can of drink and it went down me and it would sit and burn inside my stomach, but my mind would switch off and it was like I switched off all that shame for a very small period of time, you know? And to me That's what addiction is, right? You We talk about the disease of addiction, but there's that dis- ease with life itself. And it's really hard to describe. And we're talking about substance versus gambling. Like they're two totally different things, but the way that you just described that gave me shivers and and goosebumps on my arms because I could really relate and thank you so much. I ⁓ your husband, when you I don't know whether you confided in him, but when he helped you seek this person out, that's a really magical moment.
speaker-0: Hm. I I think that night really shook him as far as it actually disrupted him out of his pain to realise I was drowning and he it's that's the funny thing about, you know, when you're in close proximity to somebody and They're in pain and you're in pain, but you are trying so hard to get the other person to validate and see your own pain that you don't have the space or the awareness to be able to recognize the other persons. You're you're too busy operating from your own sense of righteousness or perspective. And it that moment, Yeah, he he got it and he understood that this was life or death for me and he set aside his pain to meet me in mine and that w compassion is so necessary to create safety for people. to be able to ⁓ meet help where they need to be and to not be met with judgment, but to be met with helping them build new skills of awareness, firing up curiosity to understand what things have impacted them that they can't see if they're only looking at it through what's wrong with me? Why am I broke? You know, does that make sense?
speaker-1: Yeah. And it's heroic, you know, our pa the partners of those suffering from gambling harm or or addiction to step 'cause they are in great pain, our loved ones, and they are often the heroes. But to step out of their pain to look after you and to help you get help is heroic. You know, they are you know, without them Maybe we're not here, Kate, you know. ⁓ Certainly in my situation without my wife pulling me out of a pub by the short and curlies, so to speak. ⁓ you know, she was my saviour. And I'll forever be indebted and forever be grateful to her.
speaker-0: Hmm. Mm I I'm you know, we have been married nearly twenty seven years and we have a little granddaughter and six incredible children and I don't take any of that for granted. ⁓ because it almost wasn't the case. And you know, I just went formal shopping with my daughter this afternoon, you know, like those moments Our everything and I I really thought that I had disqualified myself from being worthy of those moments to be able to be the mum that I wanted to be because of an impact that happened to me at age eighteen and when I talked to my kids and said, you know, you're eighteen, ⁓ you know Imagine if somebody put a you know, sealed you up in shame and made you feel like that's it. We're gonna judge you for this one moment for the rest of your life. How would that make you feel? And they were like, That would be awful, you know? I I I would hate to be like judged by something that I did now, forever, you know? And I said, Yeah, that's the weight of what I lived with for fifteen years, thinking I've made this mistake at 18 and I'll never be able to rectify it. Like I'm always gonna be broken and that was such a mental shift to realise and do you know who reconnected me to my humanness? My eldest son, ⁓ the ⁓ the morning after I almost took my life, he he noticed that I hadn't come home and everyone was looking for me that night and He just said to me, Mum, like what was going on? Like everyone was so worried and I just said to him, Mate, I've made so many mistakes, I don't know what to do and he just goes, Mum, everyone makes mistakes.
speaker-1: ⁓
speaker-0: And whoa did that just hit me and I thought you're so right. You're so right. Why did I think I had to be perfect in order for any of it to be okay? You know, like it was such a huge moment of wow, yeah, there isn't anyone that is perfect. We're all human, we're all fallible, and yet I've been thinking I've wrecked it. It's all it's all shit, you know, like I there's no there's no recovering this moment. And How amazing to get handed back my humanity by the human I created.
speaker-1: Yes, it's humbling, right?
speaker-0: It was such a powerful moment and then that moment coupled with the compassion and curiosity that my counsellor then, you know, brought into my consciousness, it was just like I was on a completely different trajectory.
speaker-1: Mm. Tell us when we talk about suicide I think it's hopelessness, isn't it? Where you've got no you just can't see the future. There's just you can't get over the past and you can't see the future at all. You've now got an organization called the Hope Project. Tell us about that.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I I never ever thought that I would share this journey publicly. when I was experiencing it I was explicit with my husband that if anyone ever found out about this I would I would take my life. Like I was that protective of what I thought was ⁓ just unimaginable shame and when when I reconnected with my humanness and actually saw the gambling landscape for what it was, I thought, hold on a minute. Being silent and just being okay with my own recovery is not what is needed here. There need what's the exact opposite of paralyzing shame? Well it's owning your your story. It's ⁓ being okay with people seeing your humanness and going, judge it, don't judge it, I don't care, you know, I'm okay with my humanness, whether you are or not, is is on you. And I knew that looking at the twelve, fifteen years that I struggled with gambling, as I'd accumulated insights that I knew could be helpful for others. ⁓ that y it it's re looking at your past ⁓ not as ⁓ the most horrible part of your life but as as valuable learnings and that nothing is wasted. Nothing that you've experienced is wasted if you share it as learning for others. And That doesn't have to be publicly. It can be in private moments of just being vulnerable with another human and ⁓ saying, It's okay, I've been there too.
speaker-1: Yeah. Because it becomes very isolating addiction. Abs yeah. Y you become really insula, like you said, you know, that zone or that moment. And others that are in that, they feel isolated. So to understand that there's community out there, there's lived experience, there's help as well. People can not feel alone and they can feel supported and they can feel loved. 'Cause we've both been in positions where I'm sure if you were like me, I am the only person in the world going through this, my life is completely fucked and I am alone. And I am hopeless.
speaker-0: Absolutely. That is absolutely not the case. And especially with gambling harm, ⁓ you know, realizing that we were the nation experiencing the highest levels of gambling harm in the world, it it blew my mind how many people were just like me that had navigated this path all by themselves, or taken their lives because they felt that same sense of hopelessness that I felt. And I thought, no, I'm not going to allow this to continue. And when after my recovery journey I actually trained to take over the group that I'd been part of. And then I'm sitting there every ⁓ Monday night waiting for people whose lives had already imploded to walk through the door and I thought, no, I've got to go out publicly and talk to people and meet them where they're at and not wait for them to get to crisis point. People need to understand that this is addiction by design. This is a very rapidly growing public health crisis in this country that is being just horrifically dealt with. And ⁓ so I tackle the Hope Project is about meeting people where they're at actually talking to people experiencing it, educating communities, schools, workplaces, you name it, w I'll talk wherever. And then also fighting it politically, ⁓ on the policy and advocacy landscape. So at both ends, you know.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Because that's the way that it is. You can help one individual but great change happens with great things and you know, like I said at the start, your work in advocacy and and parliamentary reform and parliamentary change is where real change happens, isn't it?
speaker-0: Yeah, and prov put putting pressure on it and being that voice of lived experience in that room has been a privilege that I don't just share my own stuff, I bring every story that I've encountered with me into those rooms because they otherwise it's just industry talking. It's just industry barking what they want, what they need, how they can survive. And it's like you don't even know what it's like to be experiencing gambling harm and fighting for financial survival in this economy. Like it's so despicable the way that they just fight so hard to protect their profits and do not give a shit about the people that they harm.
speaker-1: And you speak like your story is very emotive, but you're obviously a an articulate and a clever person, you know, ⁓ well educated and and so when you tell your story it's really meaningful and it's really impactful and when I first came across you I was like, I've gotta meet this Kate person, she's a badass ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: In a good way, in a good way. Hey, I have a confession to make. I worry about my gambling sometimes. I gamble. ⁓ I'm an addict in recovery from substance, namely alcohol. But I I do worry about my gambling behaviour. Is there things that I c should be keeping an eye out for in the way that I behave around gambling?
speaker-0: ⁓ that is a really great point because this landscape has not it's never been about your behavior. It's about how the industry is behaving with you. So even if you try and create your own parameters and your own safeguards and your own this is how I'm going to engage with it, this is a very different beast. This is a a very cunning Apex predator, meaning there is no one that is bringing them down. They are operating with full autonomy to destroy human lives and they do it with ease. So they have AI, they have all kinds of technologies at their fingertips to know all these data points about you, how to exploit you, what you like to eat if you're in a venue, what drinks you have. they it's called Know Your Customer. And they know so much about you and how to exploit you. So when I talk to say women who are like, ⁓ well, I just want to have a flutter on Melbourne Cup, okay, great. So you've downloaded an app and you intended to put a a bet on for one race. But guess what? That app now has three hundred and sixty five access to you.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: twenty four hours a day and it knows your algorithm, what you watch on TV and who you engage with, it's going to pump your feed with social media influencers selling you how to gamble. It's going to ⁓ s offer you incentives. They're called inducements. And it's going to pump your texts, emails, you name it, it has access to you. Ping, ping, ping. Keeping gambling front of mind for you to engage with in a completely different way than what you intended to do.
speaker-1: It's interesting. So horses is my thing. So I'm a Saturday afternoon horse racing punter. I've always loved like the studying of the form, the numbers, all of this. and you know, I don't get the inducements. As a matter of fact, I don't get like the bonus bets and these sorts of things when I'm winning. But when my account runs low on a Friday afternoon at X time, I'll get a You know, here's your deposit match offer. And ⁓ just when I'm thinking I'll have a weekend off, it's you know, that's put in front of me on a Friday afternoon. Correct. As you say, it's by design. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: So that's ⁓ really great that you're having that insight into how it's engaging with you. Because it's never about how you intend to engage with it. This is how they want they're they're ten steps ahead of every person. So as you said, if you are winning, they're gonna slow down your bets. They'll either close down your account if you are super duper winning, they will ⁓ Yeah. They will they will do everything in their power to block that from occurring. And then when as soon as they've got you in a distressed state where you start chasing losses, then they will pump your, you know, incentives, inducements through the roof. And this is money that they know that they'll get back and then some. So it's it might represent to the person, ⁓ they're giving me this ⁓ like It's no different from that two hundred dollars I won on that first night that was a calculated bait ⁓ that they knew they would get back a millionfold.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like going fishing. You catch your first fish and you want to go back, don't you? And then you never catch a fish again.
speaker-0: Yeah. So I there's ⁓ one guy that I work with in the US, he's like all all wins are just future losses.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Well it it's it's often true, isn't it? Like how many people so many people are putting money into their account, particularly when it's digital, but how many are taking money out? It would be easy for me to say to you, How much have you lost? I I think a better question is what did gambling take away from UK?
speaker-0: it it almost took everything away from me. ⁓ it there there's a line ⁓ in a song that I love and it says Don't let the darkness fool you you know all it almost fooled me into thinking that this was all my life was ever going to be and I I'm so grateful to still be here, but to also have the privilege of walking with other people and helping them to turn that light back on in their life. And you know, I gave a a talk to a group of ⁓ indigenous ⁓ young men the other day and they one guy goes, ⁓ you know, do you want to be a millionaire? And I said, Actually, yes, I want to positively impact the lives of a million people. I don't chase money. I don't chase money anymore. I chase humans. I chase people who are harmed by products and industries that knowingly do it for profit. ⁓ and I help restore hope in their own dignity in their own humanness and ⁓ help them absolutely change the trajectory of their lives.
speaker-1: Perhaps the greatest win is in someone's heart. And I think you're doing that one person at a time towards a million people, Kate.
speaker-0: As soon as somebody says, Wow, you've helped me hate the industry and not myself I'm like, Bingo, I've won. Yeah. There's another person that's that's on board, you know? And well
speaker-1: Well through today's conversation I've got no doubt that that will occur and I'm really grateful for you joining me today and ⁓ keep doing what you're doing. You're doing amazing work and thank you for all from all of us at Slaying Sober.
speaker-0: Thank you for all that you do and the the vulnerable and honest conversations that you are having with people 'cause it it's everything. No one needs surface interactions. We need deep authenticity and vulnerability to create change.
speaker-1: If we keep telling stories, it's a it's a great start in doing it. Thanks for your vulnerability today. I've felt really joyed by this conversation. Thanks, Kate. See ya.
speaker-0: Me to buy.
