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Hi guys, I just wanted to pop in and give some suggestions of products that have been really helping me unwind.
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I mean, right now, especially with everything that's going on in the world, there's just so much stress and it's really weighing on everybody, you know.
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I think with all the things that are going on in Ukraine and, you know, just the world events, not to mention all of the things that are always on our minds as professionals and as people, you know, getting trying to just get through the day.
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It's so important for us to have this time every evening where we can sit down in a space that is just it's made for us to relax.
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So, anyways, long story short, some of the things I've been loving to create that ambiance and that space for myself every evening are these amazing perfumes by this brand new um brand that I discovered.
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It's called The Heart Company.
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They make these phenomenal scents that are made at the best perfume house in France.
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And the scents are actually named after emotions.
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So one of the scents is called happiness, another one is called positivity, and you know, another one is me time.
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So when you use them, that essence of that emotion is just so beautifully crafted into these actual perfumes.
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So if you spritz a little bit, they're super light, so they're super light and they just linger in the most beautiful way.
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So if you're looking for something to really help set that tone, no matter where you are, what you're doing, especially if you're traveling and you're in a hotel and you just want to feel like looking home, right?
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It's a great option.
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So check them out.
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Again, the Heart Company, and my favorite scent is Positivity, it smells phenomenal.
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So stay tuned for this episode.
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And oh, by the way, I hope you've been using Lulove because that serum, I kid you not, every single day I see phenomenal improvements in my skin.
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Like I've been using it religiously.
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I mean, that's the best way I can put it, and it's really made a difference in just the overall like feel, texture, everything on my skin.
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So that's it.
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I just wanted to share those with you.
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I love putting those little nuggets out for you guys to try.
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You know, it's a really, really complicated um industry, so check them out.
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The Heart Company, and obviously Lou Love, and stay tuned for this awesome episode.
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A big myth in the beauty space, but there are also products able for everything.
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The truth is, that's just not true.
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And finding what works for you, that's really, really difficult.
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And then on top of it, making sure that it's clean, yeah, that whole process can be extremely overwhelming and time consuming.
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That's why I love Naked Poppy, because it is the ideal space for a clean beauty consumer that really wants quality products.
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They have a good beauty algorithm that matches you with the best clean makeup and skincare brands that fit you the best.
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The products are all amazing, and the brands are all very, very top-notch and high quality.
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And when I tried it, I think they now holy grail products.
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So I really urge you guys check them out.
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And if you're interested, they have been super nice and off regardless.
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There's a 10% off discount code.
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So if you go into Naked Poppy's website and type in anarchy at checkout, you will get 10% off.
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I hope you guys love this episode coming up with Simone Oliver, who is the editor-in-chief of one of my all-time favorite magazines, Refinery29.
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It is such a unique publication, and I've been so honored and humbled to interview her.
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But check out Naked Poppy, use the discount code for 10% off.
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Again, it's one word anarchy, and let us know if you how much you love the brand.
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Alright, guys, talk soon.
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Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
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This is Ekta, and wow, do I have a guest today?
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Um, I'm a huge fan of this publication.
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I have been uh for a very, very long time, I think since I first saw it.
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Um, so this is very surreal for me.
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Um so without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Simone Oliver, who is the editor in chief of Refinery29.
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Welcome to the show, Simone.
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Thank you, thank you.
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Happy to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Oh, it's such an honor to host you.
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I love all of the work that you guys do um at refinery.
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I'm a huge fan, and I just I can't imagine the amazing career you must have had.
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So that's really where I want to start is if you can tell us how you got into publishing and editorial and journalism and stuff that if you can walk us down memory lane.
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Yes, yes.
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Happy to share.
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Um, so I started in undergrad um as an English major and um quickly, you know, like very early on in my academic career, I realized that um I wanted to do a little bit more, um, something different from the traditional kind of academic um curriculum, right?
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That English majors often have.
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And I wanted to learn a different way of writing.
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And um, so I checked out the school paper, and that's when I realized, okay, wait, this is this is just different, you know, like it's still using the English language, um, it's still a lot of what I enjoy, but um it's very different from Shakespeare and Chaucer and all the all the friends, right?
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And um so that was kind of how I think like my first taste um of journalism.
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There were a lot that things that happened leading up to that, but I would say like as far as the real pivotal moments um that pushed me in this direction, that definitely um that's where I kind of like give the credit, right?
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And so I started working at my school paper and I it was very much like peer mentorship, right?
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Where I was uh learning from the editor of the paper and he kind of taught me like this is a lead, this is a nut graph, and um I was doing all like literally writing for all sections, right?
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So I covered the the women's track team.
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Um I uh, you know, covered entertainment, ludicrous was coming to campus.
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I'm dating myself, but that was the story I covered.
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Um and then uh what else?
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You know, campus crime, going and talking to the police and campus police and dorm people and just you know understanding, okay, what happened here?
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There was a robbery, really?
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What happened?
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Um, all that sort of stuff, right?
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And um eventually, you know, I really started to get the hang of it, but I was still on track as an English major, which really kind of pushes you in the academia realm of things.
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And I'm so sorry to your audience because I am congested.
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Luckily, it's not COVID.
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So I sound, I feel like I sound like a cartoon character right now, but trying to give you my whole story.
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Um, so you know, by the time I got to my uh junior beginning of senior year, I realized wait, I this is what I actually want to do, some sort of you know, work in publishing.
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Um, but I didn't have the undergrad um like list of internships that a lot of my peers had had, you know, especially during the summers or during um in when school was in session.
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So I started to panic, you know, and I really felt like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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So I guess I'm applying to teach for America, you know, and like I want to be a teacher, I want to do research.
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My minor was child development.
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So I thought maybe I'd write there and um do research and perhaps write books, right?
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But again, not really having a clue, but just trying to find my way, as many uh undergrads, graduating undergrads do.
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And um, I had heard through a couple of different sources, as well as seen a flyer in the School of Communications.
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Um, I saw a flyer about the New York Times starting a new um boot camp slash internship program, and it was called the New York Times Student Journalism Institute.
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And this would be their first class of students.
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You had to apply, show your clips, um, write essays, you know, it was a very rigorous um application process.
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But the end game was that they would choose 30 students from all across um the states, and you would go down to another school's campus, turn it into a newsroom, and create report, edit, um, create a uh a publication from scratch, so basically a student version of the New York Times.
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And I applied at the very last minute because I was still unsure and I was also very intimidated.
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Um, but I did it.
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I I had to pay actually to send my application overnight, which I'm sure, you know, was great, especially when you're a broke student.
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Um and um I got in.
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And so I was one of the 30 students who um, you know, ended up spending two straight weeks with New York Times uh editors and learning under them, um, but also collaborating with other uh journalism, communications, English major, you know, photographer, um page design uh students, and we all put a product together and it was it was wonderful.
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That's so cool.
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I love that you had this like you know, amazing like education aspect of it where you really got to like kind of figure it out before you got into like you know, just the job aspect of it.
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I mean, I don't see that much in education, that's why I mentioned it.
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It's it's really refreshing to hear that they gave you this hands-on, you know, aspect of learning, like this is you know how you do it, what you want to do.
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I mean, you know, we didn't even have that in science.
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I remember that's pretty cool.
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Um, so what about like refinery?
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I know refinery isn't like a super old publication.
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It's like a very up and coming, like ever since I've you know been in college, like I've seen it everywhere.
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And, you know, I always wondered about the the really unique take on, I guess, reporting and especially like with beauty and journalism in that area.
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So I would love for you to speak about like the overall vibe and the overall feel of the publication, how that fits in with like what you like to do as a reporter and a journalist.
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Like, how does everything mesh together for you?
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Yeah, um it, you know, it's all storytelling.
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And so for us, um, we we see ourselves as a service brand.
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Um, refineries started in 2005 as um a shopping brand, right?
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They really were an alternative to your very mainstream popular um publications that kind of championed a lot of the same brands, you know, especially luxury brands.
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And um refinery started as a shopping guide to New York City for them.
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There was a lot of you know up-and-coming um boutiques designers, you know, they they definitely covered, you know, the big established people as well, you know, global voices.
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But um, it was really such a discovery mechanism for me when the brand first started.
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So that's where like I initially fell in love with refinery.
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And I think coming to the brand and taking the helm, um, that was really important to me, especially when it came to style and beauty, um, really being a place where people feel like, okay, I'm gonna get the real reporting, but I also have, you know, there's a there's an irreverence there to any sort of status quo that um, you know, we approach conversations in a very raw but relatable way.
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Um, and there is no the only standard we have is really just serving our audience through rigorous, you know, storytelling and intimate storytelling.
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Yeah, no, I mean that definitely shines through, but it's also like the aspect I think of like the pop culture and like I feel like refinery, you guys just do things very um, I guess more of a real way, if that makes sense.
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Like it's I appreciate that.
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I see articles that are just not like they're they're almost like raw, and you get the information and it's like great writing.
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And I don't know, I just I really appreciate it, you know, as a reader and as a as a huge fan.
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But um, I want to, you know, I want to learn about like in terms of being an editor-in-chief, like what is it like?
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Because I know we have movies and stuff like Devil Wears Prada, and you know what I mean?
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Everyone else just like uh mysticize this uh concept, right?
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Of what it must feel like.
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So I would love for you to like just talk about some of your favorite moments or some great stories that you've covered um recently.
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I'd love to hear from you about that.
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Yeah.
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Um so I mean, I've started at refinery in the pandemic.
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So I think my experience as a global editor-in-chief of refinery um is probably a unique one, right?
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Um, I think there's a lot of like gloss in the job that's probably missing because of the pandemic, you know, to be truthful.
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But I think um one thing I've tried to do is make sure that everyone in the team has been okay and that that that um, you know, in supporting them, they can bring that into their work and their storytelling.
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So um we recently relaunched um R29 style, and um, that was really important for me to do when I came to the brand because um it we've done so much more, though the type of coverage that refinery has done, the scope I mean, um has really widened over, you know, since its inception.
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It's got it started as a fashion brand, and then next thing you know, it was like Trump, Trump, Trump, you know, and then it was like, you know, money diaries.
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And so the scope ended up being pretty wide.
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And when I came, I really just took a hardcore look at um where what do people think of when they think of refinery?
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Where are we breaking through?
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Where do we, where have we developed authority, right?
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Um, and that trust from our audience.
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And that's that's really important.
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So um literally just earlier this week, we three days ago, um, we launched R29 style.
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And and and R29 style isn't one thing, right?
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It's really an ecosystem where you can find fashion, beauty, shopping information from refinery, right?
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You can discover new brands, um, you can buy from those brands on site.
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Um, you can find us on TikTok.
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We relaunched our Instagram, which had um been on hiatus for a while.
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Um, you get to know our editors.
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I think it's really important to form a relationship between, you know, the people behind the bylines, behind the scenes, behind, you know, all the content that we're producing, the newsletters, all the above, um, and really create that relationship, right?
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And you kind of know, like, all right, this is so-and-so, they're writing this beauty story, but um, you know, I kind of can I can recognize them and you feel more of a sense of connection with them in that case.
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So I'm working on that as well.
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But we just launched um 29 Big Styles, Big Style Ideas.
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Um, this is a franchise that we do seasonally, um, and it includes um just kind of the trends and in beauty and in personal style and in shopping.
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And I encourage everyone here to check it out.
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And it's really about what's inspiring you right now, right?
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And the editors um across refinery, right?
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And when you think about what's inspiring you, it's definitely not the same things that were inspiring you pre-pandemic, right?
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And so now that we're two years in, um nothing is the same when it comes to self-expression.
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And that is wildly exciting to us.
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And, you know, when we look at at like you said, pop culture and the influences there, but also looking in inward, you know, and and spending a lot of time alone and spending a lot of time with just like your your nuclear family, whatever, whatever the last two years has been to you.
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Um, there have been so many shifts in, especially in the world of beauty, in the world of fashion, and world of shopping and how we shop and we think about how we dress.
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Dressing is very intentional, right?
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Sometimes we we don't think it is and we don't acknowledge that it is, but it is intentional.
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Um, and so whether it is whether you choose to just live in sweats forever, long before the pandemic, you know, whatever it is, it's still an intentional act and it's not neutral.
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And that um for us, like really popping the hood on that is something that we dedicate um a lot of time to.
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Absolutely.
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And I mean, I mean, it definitely shows and I love that you, you know, you guys are just staying true to that of, you know, we're we're um we're journalists first, you know what I mean?
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And I just kind of going back to what you said about people getting to know the editors, like that's yeah, it's important because you want to know who's giving you advice, who's giving the real professional advice here.
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And I know that in on past episodes, I've you know, um, kind of this topic has come up where it's like, well, are editors losing their influence um in this huge realm of social media, right?
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Where everyone is like um an expert and everyone is like doing something where they have an audience.
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And it's it makes me just kind of uh wonder because growing up, I mean, I got all my advice from magazines.
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So, you know, for me very interesting.
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It's an interesting shift.
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Um, and you know, especially when it comes to like just representation and making sure that, you know, the information people are getting is truly curated.
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I mean, that's what I worry about in a way as a consumer, right?
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About how people are consuming media.
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So I would love for your opinion on that in terms of, you know, when when it comes to the engagement you have with your users, like is it, you know, what kind of differences do you think you see between this and like someone who's on TikTok?
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You know, like I just want to like clarify for people, because everyone's like, you know, let me let me actually say this too.
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I'm asking Simone this for everyone listening because I actually got a comment a while ago and people were like, Well, video is the new thing, you know, if you're not on video, what the hell are you doing?
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And I'm like, I don't know, telling stories of real people, like, you know, like moment for me where I was like, well, wait a minute, is social media the new um big magazines, right?
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Like the TikTok roles.
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That's why I want your opinion on that.
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Like this, I mean, it's in my humble opinion, it's it's been that way, right?
00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:59.519
Like it isn't binary.
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I think there's this idea of like, it's either text or it's TikTok, you know, and it's like, no, it can be text, tick tock, newsletter, podcast, magazine, you know what I mean?
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Netflix, it could be it's it's linear.
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It's it's really, we have so many options now, right?
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And I think um, this is something we talk about all the time, you know, at refinery, is who what are you what audience are you trying to reach?
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And what is the best way to tell this story?
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What are you trying to accomplish in this story?
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.160
And when you're thinking about that, right?
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.279
Like, say it's like, I want to tell people about farm farm to bottle formulations and skincare, right?
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.400
And it's like, okay, well, is this like a general population story?
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.920
Do you not does it not matter?
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.160
Not every story has to be like this is specifically targeted to, you know, Gen Z, right?
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:49.680
Like, not everything has to be that rigid, but just put just doing the exercise in your mind.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.079
Who are you trying to reach with this information, right?
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.440
It could be a personal essay, it doesn't have to be something that's like deeply reported.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:05.759
It can be like, this is an important story, an experience that I want to share, um, and that people can learn from it, whether it's there, whether whether they can relate or whether that they just want to be informed, right?
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.000
And so again, who are you trying to reach?
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.359
What are you trying to accomplish?
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:18.240
And then after that, the follow-up question is where is the best place to tell the story, the best format in order to really reach the people you're trying to reach, right?
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:31.279
And so um it's really important that again, in my humble opinion, that people really think through those questions as they're publishing, because sometimes the best place to tell that story is on Instagram and a carousel.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:38.559
Sometimes it should probably be a documentary that you try to, you know, take to a studio and develop, right?
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:45.119
Sometimes it should be a straight up 800-word article that is very voicey and well reported and has in a brilliant headline, right?
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.279
Um and sometimes it's all of those things, right?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.359
A lot of times those things are interconnected, right?
00:19:49.440 --> 00:20:03.200
You get some documentary idea based off of an article that you reported, um, you know, someone that the the personal story in the article, and you're like, you know what, this this actually deserves a whole lot more space and time.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.960
And um, this could probably be developed into something else, right?
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:14.319
And so I'll use an example that's even more specific again for our 29 big style ideals, which we just launched this year.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:15.839
It's a trend report, right?
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:20.559
But how we how it how it lives, it lives differently in different places.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:32.720
So if you go to art.com um and you're poking around and you get to the style section and you see um we have this beautiful, beautifully designed, beautifully written and reported scroll through that's like right on your phone.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:39.200
You could be standing there waiting for your train, you can be, you know, in your bed, you can be in between meetings, whatever it is you know you have going on in your life.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.279
It's very digestible, very snackable.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.799
But again, you'll be informed and you'll be entertained when you're done, right?
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:59.039
And then if you go to TikTok, what we did was we pulled out a couple of those trends and kind of tested um some of the newer trends or trends that might be might be new for people, we've tested those for you because we know that we have the audience's trust at refinery.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.279
And so we kind of do the work for you.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:11.200
That's part of us being a service brand where if you're curious about that trend and maybe even a little bit skeptical, we'll go test it for you on tech, we publish it on TikTok, publish it on Instagram.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:22.559
And then in our newsletter, I wrote a letters, excuse me, an editor's letter in our newsletter, our our newsletter audience um, you know, looks different from our TikTok audience, right?
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.759
So the way I'm speaking to that audience is gonna be a little bit different.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.480
And so I'm writing them a letter in a very intimate way.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:37.519
Um, but then within it, I have, you know, I pulled out a couple of trends from our big style ideas um franchise, but then I also make it shoppable in newsletter.
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.680
So if this is interesting to you, I've curated our curation, but it also made it actionable for you and close that loop.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:54.640
So that's just an example of how it's the same 29 big style ideas franchise, but depending on what environment you're in, it's gonna be a different experience to cater to those segments of audiences.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.759
Yeah, no, that be that is actually brilliant, Simone.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.519
But seriously, like I um, you know.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:06.960
I haven't heard that before in terms of like really adapting to what platform you're utilizing, you know, to deliver the same information.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:15.759
And that's something that I, you know, you're the first uh, you know, editor that has ever brought this up because everyone else I've talked to is like, well, you know, you just have to know your audience.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.880
I'm like, You're like, what does that mean?
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.200
I mean, no, I mean, I I here's the thing though, I I have been wanting to ask you this.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:33.759
I'm not gonna lie, I've been very just intrigued by how amazing, you know, of a job you're doing at refinery.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:45.200
Because I, you know, you're obviously, you know, as a fellow woman of color, you know, I know that this conversation has come up again and again about how women um, you know, that have like just diversity in general, right?
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:46.720
Just women are not in the right roles.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.200
They're not high up enough, you know, to make decisions.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:55.920
And I love seeing, you know, intelligent women, regardless of what color we are, in these roles, you know, such as yours or beef.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:22.000
And I would love to get some feedback from you about how, you know, you you view um, you know, this idea of media and news for just general consumers, because it there's a huge difference in the way that a refinery presents information, such as I'll give you an example, when I go onto the website and I click on any story, any story at all, you're gonna see a very like equal spread of like faces and representation.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:32.720
It's not like a all only black girls or only white girls or only any, it's like a very nice, like just melting pot of faces that consumers see, and you're not, you don't feel alienated.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:33.680
You see what I'm saying?
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.880
Like it's it's such a different experience than a lot of publications.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:45.680
And so um, I can't help but attribute that to the idea of like, you know, they've put the right people in the right places, and you know, you guys are really a well-thought-out team.
00:23:45.839 --> 00:24:00.240
So I would love to get your insight on what it's like in the news and you know, the beauty publication world um in terms of just bringing this forward, like the true accessibility, the representation, inclusivity, all of it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:08.799
Well, I have to say um just a deep thank you from the bottom of my heart for just acknowledging that.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:15.440
Um, because it's important to every single editor, writer, person at uh refinery, right?
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.799
And I think, you know, to your point, um that was something that was missing.
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.359
And it was important to me to bring that to the brand because I'd already fallen in love with the brand, right?
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:26.960
Like you already had me, right?
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:40.240
Um, but as you know, a black woman coming up in the industry and someone who loves style, loves beauty, loves, you know, thinking about money in new ways and in lifestyle and and in um, you know, just kind of adults in general.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:51.039
Um, I definitely didn't feel seen for most of my um, you know, career just in terms of like the content that's putting putting out there by by brands that have really big platforms, right?
00:24:51.119 --> 00:25:01.759
And so um the fact that you can see it and and just going on the home page, I think that's just like I want to go back to my team and be like, guys, they noticed, you know, like it's everything we talk about all day.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:05.119
And the thing about refinery is like tokenism for us is a dirty word.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.039
Like we we're not about that life.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:14.559
Um for us, it's it's really truly um reflecting the world that we live in.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:21.039
And I think that's like a saying that people throw around very often, but really don't put action behind it.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:26.319
And there is no perfect ratio of like, let me get a redhead, let me get an able-bodied person in this shot.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.119
Like, no, that's not.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.799
It's just are you reflecting the stories that that um uh people are experiencing in this world?
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:42.319
And so, you know, a lot of that does come from the inside, our team of um folks is is more diverse, you know, than when I arrived, I'll say that.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:49.839
Um, but it's not even as diverse as I want it to be, you know, that's more of a function of like, you know, just the limitations that happen to be out of my control.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.359
Um, but when we do have those limitations, right?
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:54.799
And I'll give you an example.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:06.079
Um, we call on people in the community, in different communities, to help us edit stories or help tell the stories that we feel like, you know what, I am um not of this community.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.759
And I think I needed some other eyes on this story, right?
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.000
And like we always tend to do that.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:21.119
Um and sometimes, like, yeah, it's it's it's like remarkable how we all have that mechanism um at different levels of our team and different roles in our team.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.480
And that's one thing that I think I'll always cherish about R29.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:42.079
Um, you know, I'll have like a call with with one of the senior editors, and they're like, you know what, Simone, I really feel like it's so like two other people should look at the story because, you know, as a as a cis white woman, I just want to make sure that I'm really capturing the experience here and I'm I don't have any blind spots.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.119
And I'm like, people don't really hear that on calls, right?
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.400
Like that's not a normal thing that that has been normal.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.319
I should say it's not a thing that's been normalized in our media culture, in our culture in general.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.759
But it's very like just a Tuesday at refinery.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.960
And I think it comes through in our stories, and we don't always, you know, we don't do everything perfectly by any means.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:18.880
And I think what we're good at is like we go back and we watch that video or read that piece and be like, oh, we okay, okay, that was a blind spot, you know, and it's like we share that, and and it's not to just like criticize each other, it's so that hopefully we don't leave anyone out again the next time we publish something, right?
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:19.920
If that makes sense.
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.759
Um, and um yeah, I'll I'll leave it at that.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:36.720
But I I appreciate you noticing, and it's something that is wildly, deeply important to us um as a brand to um make sure that we are inclusive, not for inclusive sake.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:45.839
It is to kind of help the rest of the world um reframe its thinking so that it's not about who we're including because our society left them out.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.799
It's like, well, let's just turn that on its head, right?
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:57.519
So even like the writers, the editors, the people shooting our stories, the illustrators, um, all woven throughout the brand.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.960
Uh, we want many different perspectives.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:09.759
And that's like the most rare thing to ever see in this like whole realm, I think that I'm I'm talking about with the publication.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:10.880
That is extremely rare.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:17.279
And I absolutely just I'm in love with the fact that you you guys are doing it this way and that you have this approach.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.799
I mean, you know, let's be honest.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.559
I have talked to, you know, certain amazing women, um, you know, that were very much on the same page as what we're talking about here.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:33.440
And everyone said, like, you know, when you grow up in a house where, you know, most women of color, people of color, we grew up in houses where you can't make a mistake.
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.920
You better, you know what I mean, make sure everything is done right.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:42.960
And I think that that cultural aspect of it, um, which is really what I believe represents Americans in general, right?
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:50.400
This idea of like we're all from different cultures and we all have so much to bring in terms of work ethic and the way that we approach thoroughness.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:58.319
And these are all the things that really play into creating this inclusivity, this diversity um in what we're putting out there for people to see.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:05.599
And I think, you know, that's really where I get very, you know, interested in the conversation around, well, are the right people in charge?
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.920
You know, are the right people in positions?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:15.920
It's more of like, well, do they have the right upbringing and the culture and that, you know, are they bringing that to what we need, like that?
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.240
And I I don't see that, you know what I mean?
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:26.240
And it's really, really interesting to see how you guys are are really approaching just every aspect of you know, beauty, fashion, everything.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:38.960
It's it's very relatable, you know, and that that relatability I think comes from this idea of well, we have to approach thoroughness and true journalism from multiple angles and different perspectives, which really yeah.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:56.559
So anyway, you know, I really want to I want to actually ask you about um, you know, there's not enough career advice out there at all for I think young women who are, you know, young professionals, they're coming up, they might not have, you know, all the resources that a lot of their peers have, which is something I, you know, I grew up with that in medicine.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.480
I was a mentor.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:29:59.599
I was always looking for advice.
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:08.480
And I would love to get your take on that, you know, as far as rising up in the rank of editorial and publishing, like how does that work and any advice you have?
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:13.519
Yeah, um, I'm gonna self-promote, which is like a new muscle that I'm developing.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.559
Um, we just started a new series at refinery called Get the Job, right?
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:26.160
And um we external, we we feature all types of um talent, you know, throughout the industry.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:35.119
Um, women, nine binary, underrepresented people who are just like killing it in wherever they come from, um, whatever parts of the industry they may come from.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:42.079
And um, they decided to feature me first, which made me really uncomfortable, but now that I see the finished product, it's wonderful.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.839
Um, but I'll send it to you and and your listeners as a follow-up.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:51.599
But in it, um, we talk about sort of the three things to include in a cold email, right?
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:58.559
I think one thing that's important just for anyone at any level um is establishing and cultivating relationships, right?
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:12.559
And I think for especially young people um while they're still in school, um, and then kind of those early years when they don't have a lot of experience, a lot of ambition, but not a lot of experience, um, relationships are really everything, right?
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:14.960
It doesn't even matter the industry that you're in.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.400
And so reaching out to people and introducing yourself.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:27.759
But then when you do that, you know, any kind of cult, cold DM, cold email, cold LinkedIn message is going to feel for a lot of people really uncomfortable.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.599
Um, but I encourage people to kind of push themselves back, you know, push push themselves beyond that.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:46.319
And um, but when you do reach out to people, be really clear and intentional about what it is that you want, you know, and so it's saying, hey, um, you know, I love specificity, right?
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.640
I love, you know, the thing that you do at Nike really inspired me in this way.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.799
You know, I'm an intern here, or I just started my first job here, or whatever your job is.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:57.839
Um, you know, I really want to talk to you about this specific thing.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.640
Do you have 15 minutes for like a Zoom coffee or a coffee or whatever, um, you know, to talk to you about this, or I have a problem trying to solve, right?
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.079
And maybe they will, maybe you won't.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.519
Most of the time you might get rejected simply because of people's bandwidth, right?
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:11.200
But start developing that muscle.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:24.799
And then when you do get on the phone with them or you're able to meet them for coffee, um, again, bring that same specificity to you know the conversation, because oftentimes a lot of these people don't have a lot of time to offer, right?
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.599
Even though they they may want to in their hearts, but realistically, it just isn't always feasible.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:42.240
So bringing that, you know, three things to the conversation if you're having coffee with them that you want to get out of it, and even saying to yourself, all right, when I'm done having coffee with you know this person, when I walk away, what is it that I'm hoping to walk away with?
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:42.720
Right.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:53.680
Um, and it's sometimes, you know, what it like some of the smartest leaders and executives will do is like, okay, I'm meeting with this young person or person from a different industry or whatever, and I'm gonna have those same goals too, you know.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:33:06.799
And so, you know, it's a two-way street, but I think especially for people who tend to be less experienced, um, I think creating a framework for yourself so that um, again, you you lead with attention.
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.640
And then the second part of all of that is staying in touch, right?
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.720
We always say stay in touch, stay in touch, right?
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:14.319
But like how many of us really do?
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:20.160
And I think like that is something that uh requires consistency and requires effort.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.039
And um it doesn't have to be cumbersome.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:32.240
I think one example is is say you are, you know, in your second job and you're still very new in your career, but you've done some projects that you're pretty excited about and you want to share.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:47.759
Yes, you can share across social and share with your family members, but like that's also a good time to email that person that you met at a conference or your mother's friend who you really don't really talk to, you're kind of intimidated by, but like, you know, you know that you know they're really impressive and you admire what they do.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.400
Like you know, you can email them and say, hey, um, it's been a while since we talked or whatever.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.119
Use use the holidays as as milestones, right?
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:56.079
Happy New Year.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:57.519
Um, I hope everything's well.
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.000
I saw that thing that you did or heard about that thing.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:01.119
Congratulations on that.
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:03.839
I also wanted to share with you a couple of like highlights on my end.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.079
I did this project at work that I'm really excited about.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:07.440
My contribution was X.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:09.760
Hope we could get coffee this spring when you're available.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.159
Would love to send you some dates when you have a good time.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:13.280
Hope all is well.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:14.559
Best person.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.559
Like to me, that is a short and sweet, but very intentional.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:24.400
Um, and I again, like, I don't have all the answers, but that's it, that's something that has worked for me over the years.
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:34.079
And it allows me to constantly um cultivate relationships and not just reach out to people when I need something or in between jobs or you know, I'm in a crisis.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.039
You understand?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.519
No, that's that's amazing.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.679
Wow, that that was really, really good advice.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.800
I love all of that.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.039
I completely, completely agree with you.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.800
And, you know, that is very, very solid and and a real layout.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:55.679
So everyone listening, if you're interested in editorial editorial and journalism, please listen to Simone's advice because everything she said, yes, I 100% agree with.
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.320
I know I had the same or similar, you know, experiences going through like the medical field.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:08.320
It's like reaching out, making sure I'm not even lying, Simone, with us with our applications, it's like if you don't reach out like 18 times, like you're never gonna land a residency.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:08.960
Like that kind of.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:09.760
Right, right.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:10.559
Like just keep trying.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.920
You know, it sounds like cliche, but like please keep trying.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.440
Yes, 100%.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:35.119
Um, you know, and I really love that um people are now realizing just how difficult it is to be a journalist and to really make it because I mean, just in the last decade, and and correct me if I'm wrong, I've seen this like huge um, you know, change in in a good way of just quality over quantity.
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:49.840
Um, I I've really noticed that, you know, the bar is set higher now for journalism, um, you know, by far, and especially in a world where we live with where we're dealing with all sorts of opinions, especially, you know, keeping it on topic for the podcast, skincare, right?
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.880
For example, everyone's an expert, everyone's got something to say.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:59.920
But then for editors, we do have this higher bar set in terms of we want the real deal, we want you to, you know, to deliver this.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:06.559
So I guess if people can start training for that kind of mindset early, that would be, you know, just very beneficial for their careers.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.639
So I I love that you offered that advice.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.800
Um, now I want to round up the episode because I do have some rapid fire questions for you.
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.079
Um, and they're just they're very easy, don't worry.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:21.199
But I think it's a fun little thing I want to start doing here.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:26.800
And um, I'm sure everyone's really curious uh in terms of like what you have, you know, around you and stuff.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:27.760
So let me get started.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:32.239
Um, the first one, uh, how many unread emails do you have right now in your inbox?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.599
Uh let me see.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:40.880
It's an embarrassing amount.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.400
Is it over a thousand?
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:43.519
It is.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:44.079
Okay.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:45.519
It is.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:52.159
Um, but yeah, um, next one, favorite moisturizer right now.
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:57.360
Uh dermalogica active moist.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:58.239
Okay.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:36:59.840
Um, makeup item.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.000
It could be anything like eyeliner or anything.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:03.679
Oh, lip balm all day.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.119
This is in the in the winter.
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:11.920
In the in the summer, it's definitely um uh a cobalt blue eyeliner or mascara.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.079
Oh, I love that.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.039
Oh my gosh.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.679
That's that's my jam all day.
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.000
I just I remember like, you know, when we all used to wear like the white or the cobalt.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:22.480
Oh my gosh.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.079
Oh my gosh, yes, the white.
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:24.960
I remember that.
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.239
Um, okay.
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:38.320
What can we always find in Simone's purse or desk or car or anywhere you need something like immediate access to, like a beauty product or skincare product, anything like that.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:41.360
Oh, I have I have construction worker hands, man.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.039
Lotion all day.
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:43.920
All day.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:45.039
Usually keels.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:46.719
I need something that's kind of thick.
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:53.679
Um, yeah, yeah, some kind of hand because it's like the hand sanitizer that sits next to the hands, you know, sits next to the lotion.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:57.360
So, like, you know, I I have to be able to moisturize shortly after.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:58.320
I love that.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:37:58.960
That's so cool.
00:37:59.039 --> 00:37:59.599
I'm the same way.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:00.239
Moisturizer.
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:04.000
Every brand I interview, I'm like, do you guys have a hand cream?
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:08.480
Oh, that's really cool.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:11.519
Um, well, those were just some I had, and I'm I'm so thankful.
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:12.960
Thank you for being such a good sport.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:17.920
And um absolutely thank you again for having me and just kind of being so in tune with the brand.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:25.199
And we hope, you know, others uh see what you see because we really are committed to serving our audiences and you've just been so great.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.480
So um this was this was such a highlight of my day.
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.239
Thank you so much, and I love that.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.840
And yes, I'm a huge fan of Refinery 29, everyone listening.
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:40.079
If you have not already like scoured the website and read every article, please, I really urge you go check it out.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:46.960
Um, the whole, like I said, you know, as soon as you get onto the web page, it's like, oh, cool, these people look like me.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:48.159
I feel like I belong.
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:56.400
So I really urge all of our listeners, please check out the publication and leave any questions you have for Simone.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:01.920
I know that, you know, like I said, Devil Awares Prada and all these movies paint this like image of editor in chiefs.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.760
And I would love to see what kind of questions do you guys have um, you know, going forward.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:07.039
But thank you so much, Simone.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
This has been such an honor.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:09.599
I really mean that.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:10.239
Thank you.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:12.960
May May I make one last plug?
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:14.079
Absolutely.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:18.719
Okay, this is because I know your audience is very heavy, like beauty, you know, aficionados.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:21.920
Um, R29 style on Instagram, find us there.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:22.880
Thank you.
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:24.400
Yeah, definitely.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:25.280
I can even tag that.
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:25.920
I'll tag that.
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.679
Yes, we'd love that, please.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.119
Yes, absolutely.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:30.079
Definitely check them out.
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:36.800
And also, huge shout out to Kirby Johnson because I know you guys just it's just sign Gloss Angels.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:38.960
I love the podcast, it's amazing.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:46.239
Um, so everyone listening, definitely check out Gloss Angels if you haven't already, which I'm sure you guys have, but I'm so excited to see what you guys do together.
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:47.679
It's gonna be so good.
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:59.280
And and just so everyone knows, like a little bit of context, um, Refinery just entered a partnership with um Gloss Angeles, and um they are Sarah Tan and Kirby Johnson.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.880
Sarah Tan is also the beauty director um at Refinery.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:10.719
And so she's got you know her hands in both pots, and it's wonderful because she's driving the direction of our beauty coverage.
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:17.840
Um, but also fellow journalist uh Kirby Johnson is her partner crime on the podcast, and um, we're gonna be partnering.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:26.880
And what you see um now with their awesome podcasts is is gonna be more of that, and we're just gonna compliment, you know, what they're doing, and they're gonna continue to drive the editorial vision there.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.000
So so excited.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.360
Thank you for for mentioning that.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:30.480
Appreciate that.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.159
Oh, I'm very excited, and I can't wait to see what's up and coming.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:39.039
And um, yeah, again, huge shout out to Sarah and Kirby, and you guys are gonna do such great work.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.039
So I can't wait to see.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:42.960
Amazing, amazing.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:45.199
Well, I will be back listening.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.320
Thank you so much, Simone.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:47.280
This was wonderful.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:48.400
Thank you.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.519
Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:56.480
Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.960
We are available on so many different platforms.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.079
So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe.
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00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:20.960
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00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:39.599
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00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:44.559
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00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:51.119
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00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:56.159
So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:56.559
Thank you.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:02.720
This episode is brought to you by Vonage.
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00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:43.920
Hi guys, I just wanted to pop in and give some suggestions of products that have been really helping me unwind.
00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:52.159
I mean, right now, especially with everything that's going on in the world, there's just so much stress and it's really weighing on everybody, you know.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:01:04.879
I think with all the things that are going on in Ukraine and, you know, just the world events, not to mention all of the things that are always on our minds as professionals and as people, you know, getting trying to just get through the day.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:13.519
It's so important for us to have this time every evening where we can sit down in a space that is just it's made for us to relax.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:25.040
So, anyways, long story short, some of the things I've been loving to create that ambiance and that space for myself every evening are these amazing perfumes by this brand new um brand that I discovered.
00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:26.799
It's called The Heart Company.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:32.319
They make these phenomenal scents that are made at the best perfume house in France.
00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.040
And the scents are actually named after emotions.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:40.879
So one of the scents is called happiness, another one is called positivity, and you know, another one is me time.
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:48.959
So when you use them, that essence of that emotion is just so beautifully crafted into these actual perfumes.
00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:54.480
So if you spritz a little bit, they're super light, so they're super light and they just linger in the most beautiful way.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:05.519
So if you're looking for something to really help set that tone, no matter where you are, what you're doing, especially if you're traveling and you're in a hotel and you just want to feel like looking home, right?
00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:06.640
It's a great option.
00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:07.519
So check them out.
00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.960
Again, the Heart Company, and my favorite scent is Positivity, it smells phenomenal.
00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:14.879
So stay tuned for this episode.
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:23.919
And oh, by the way, I hope you've been using Lulove because that serum, I kid you not, every single day I see phenomenal improvements in my skin.
00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.879
Like I've been using it religiously.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:34.479
I mean, that's the best way I can put it, and it's really made a difference in just the overall like feel, texture, everything on my skin.
00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:35.840
So that's it.
00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.280
I just wanted to share those with you.
00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.919
I love putting those little nuggets out for you guys to try.
00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.520
You know, it's a really, really complicated um industry, so check them out.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:49.280
The Heart Company, and obviously Lou Love, and stay tuned for this awesome episode.
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:59.759
A big myth in the beauty space, but there are also products able for everything.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:02.319
The truth is, that's just not true.
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.439
And finding what works for you, that's really, really difficult.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:12.639
And then on top of it, making sure that it's clean, yeah, that whole process can be extremely overwhelming and time consuming.
00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:22.400
That's why I love Naked Poppy, because it is the ideal space for a clean beauty consumer that really wants quality products.
00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:30.319
They have a good beauty algorithm that matches you with the best clean makeup and skincare brands that fit you the best.
00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:37.039
The products are all amazing, and the brands are all very, very top-notch and high quality.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.759
And when I tried it, I think they now holy grail products.
00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:55.840
So I really urge you guys check them out.
00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.120
And if you're interested, they have been super nice and off regardless.
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.039
There's a 10% off discount code.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:05.919
So if you go into Naked Poppy's website and type in anarchy at checkout, you will get 10% off.
00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:15.360
I hope you guys love this episode coming up with Simone Oliver, who is the editor-in-chief of one of my all-time favorite magazines, Refinery29.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.600
It is such a unique publication, and I've been so honored and humbled to interview her.
00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:24.000
But check out Naked Poppy, use the discount code for 10% off.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.600
Again, it's one word anarchy, and let us know if you how much you love the brand.
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:31.439
Alright, guys, talk soon.
00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:46.399
Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.199
This is Ekta, and wow, do I have a guest today?
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.439
Um, I'm a huge fan of this publication.
00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.600
I have been uh for a very, very long time, I think since I first saw it.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.839
Um, so this is very surreal for me.
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:04.079
Um so without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Simone Oliver, who is the editor in chief of Refinery29.
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.519
Welcome to the show, Simone.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:06.480
Thank you, thank you.
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:07.279
Happy to be here.
00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:08.480
Thanks for having me.
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:10.560
Oh, it's such an honor to host you.
00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.399
I love all of the work that you guys do um at refinery.
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:18.959
I'm a huge fan, and I just I can't imagine the amazing career you must have had.
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:27.839
So that's really where I want to start is if you can tell us how you got into publishing and editorial and journalism and stuff that if you can walk us down memory lane.
00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:28.800
Yes, yes.
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.319
Happy to share.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:48.959
Um, so I started in undergrad um as an English major and um quickly, you know, like very early on in my academic career, I realized that um I wanted to do a little bit more, um, something different from the traditional kind of academic um curriculum, right?
00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:50.959
That English majors often have.
00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.759
And I wanted to learn a different way of writing.
00:05:54.079 --> 00:06:10.560
And um, so I checked out the school paper, and that's when I realized, okay, wait, this is this is just different, you know, like it's still using the English language, um, it's still a lot of what I enjoy, but um it's very different from Shakespeare and Chaucer and all the all the friends, right?
00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:16.319
And um so that was kind of how I think like my first taste um of journalism.
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:28.240
There were a lot that things that happened leading up to that, but I would say like as far as the real pivotal moments um that pushed me in this direction, that definitely um that's where I kind of like give the credit, right?
00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:33.920
And so I started working at my school paper and I it was very much like peer mentorship, right?
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:44.959
Where I was uh learning from the editor of the paper and he kind of taught me like this is a lead, this is a nut graph, and um I was doing all like literally writing for all sections, right?
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.439
So I covered the the women's track team.
00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.319
Um I uh, you know, covered entertainment, ludicrous was coming to campus.
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.600
I'm dating myself, but that was the story I covered.
00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.160
Um and then uh what else?
00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:04.240
You know, campus crime, going and talking to the police and campus police and dorm people and just you know understanding, okay, what happened here?
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:05.360
There was a robbery, really?
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:06.079
What happened?
00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:08.000
Um, all that sort of stuff, right?
00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:19.360
And um eventually, you know, I really started to get the hang of it, but I was still on track as an English major, which really kind of pushes you in the academia realm of things.
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:23.759
And I'm so sorry to your audience because I am congested.
00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:25.120
Luckily, it's not COVID.
00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:31.680
So I sound, I feel like I sound like a cartoon character right now, but trying to give you my whole story.
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:44.720
Um, so you know, by the time I got to my uh junior beginning of senior year, I realized wait, I this is what I actually want to do, some sort of you know, work in publishing.
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:55.279
Um, but I didn't have the undergrad um like list of internships that a lot of my peers had had, you know, especially during the summers or during um in when school was in session.
00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.759
So I started to panic, you know, and I really felt like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:04.800
So I guess I'm applying to teach for America, you know, and like I want to be a teacher, I want to do research.
00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:06.399
My minor was child development.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.279
So I thought maybe I'd write there and um do research and perhaps write books, right?
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:19.040
But again, not really having a clue, but just trying to find my way, as many uh undergrads, graduating undergrads do.
00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:25.759
And um, I had heard through a couple of different sources, as well as seen a flyer in the School of Communications.
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:36.879
Um, I saw a flyer about the New York Times starting a new um boot camp slash internship program, and it was called the New York Times Student Journalism Institute.
00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.440
And this would be their first class of students.
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:45.600
You had to apply, show your clips, um, write essays, you know, it was a very rigorous um application process.
00:08:45.759 --> 00:09:03.679
But the end game was that they would choose 30 students from all across um the states, and you would go down to another school's campus, turn it into a newsroom, and create report, edit, um, create a uh a publication from scratch, so basically a student version of the New York Times.
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:09.200
And I applied at the very last minute because I was still unsure and I was also very intimidated.
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:10.240
Um, but I did it.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:16.320
I I had to pay actually to send my application overnight, which I'm sure, you know, was great, especially when you're a broke student.
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:19.519
Um and um I got in.
00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:42.000
And so I was one of the 30 students who um, you know, ended up spending two straight weeks with New York Times uh editors and learning under them, um, but also collaborating with other uh journalism, communications, English major, you know, photographer, um page design uh students, and we all put a product together and it was it was wonderful.
00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:43.519
That's so cool.
00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:53.200
I love that you had this like you know, amazing like education aspect of it where you really got to like kind of figure it out before you got into like you know, just the job aspect of it.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.919
I mean, I don't see that much in education, that's why I mentioned it.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:04.399
It's it's really refreshing to hear that they gave you this hands-on, you know, aspect of learning, like this is you know how you do it, what you want to do.
00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:07.360
I mean, you know, we didn't even have that in science.
00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.240
I remember that's pretty cool.
00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.000
Um, so what about like refinery?
00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.480
I know refinery isn't like a super old publication.
00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:20.240
It's like a very up and coming, like ever since I've you know been in college, like I've seen it everywhere.
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:29.120
And, you know, I always wondered about the the really unique take on, I guess, reporting and especially like with beauty and journalism in that area.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:38.559
So I would love for you to speak about like the overall vibe and the overall feel of the publication, how that fits in with like what you like to do as a reporter and a journalist.
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.039
Like, how does everything mesh together for you?
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:44.240
Yeah, um it, you know, it's all storytelling.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:48.000
And so for us, um, we we see ourselves as a service brand.
00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:53.679
Um, refineries started in 2005 as um a shopping brand, right?
00:10:53.759 --> 00:11:04.240
They really were an alternative to your very mainstream popular um publications that kind of championed a lot of the same brands, you know, especially luxury brands.
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.879
And um refinery started as a shopping guide to New York City for them.
00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:18.320
There was a lot of you know up-and-coming um boutiques designers, you know, they they definitely covered, you know, the big established people as well, you know, global voices.
00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:23.759
But um, it was really such a discovery mechanism for me when the brand first started.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.399
So that's where like I initially fell in love with refinery.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:48.240
And I think coming to the brand and taking the helm, um, that was really important to me, especially when it came to style and beauty, um, really being a place where people feel like, okay, I'm gonna get the real reporting, but I also have, you know, there's a there's an irreverence there to any sort of status quo that um, you know, we approach conversations in a very raw but relatable way.
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:55.679
Um, and there is no the only standard we have is really just serving our audience through rigorous, you know, storytelling and intimate storytelling.
00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:08.000
Yeah, no, I mean that definitely shines through, but it's also like the aspect I think of like the pop culture and like I feel like refinery, you guys just do things very um, I guess more of a real way, if that makes sense.
00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:09.840
Like it's I appreciate that.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:16.720
I see articles that are just not like they're they're almost like raw, and you get the information and it's like great writing.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:21.600
And I don't know, I just I really appreciate it, you know, as a reader and as a as a huge fan.
00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:26.799
But um, I want to, you know, I want to learn about like in terms of being an editor-in-chief, like what is it like?
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.039
Because I know we have movies and stuff like Devil Wears Prada, and you know what I mean?
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:36.080
Everyone else just like uh mysticize this uh concept, right?
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:37.519
Of what it must feel like.
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:44.240
So I would love for you to like just talk about some of your favorite moments or some great stories that you've covered um recently.
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.080
I'd love to hear from you about that.
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:47.120
Yeah.
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:52.000
Um so I mean, I've started at refinery in the pandemic.
00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:58.960
So I think my experience as a global editor-in-chief of refinery um is probably a unique one, right?
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:06.240
Um, I think there's a lot of like gloss in the job that's probably missing because of the pandemic, you know, to be truthful.
00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:17.039
But I think um one thing I've tried to do is make sure that everyone in the team has been okay and that that that um, you know, in supporting them, they can bring that into their work and their storytelling.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:36.559
So um we recently relaunched um R29 style, and um, that was really important for me to do when I came to the brand because um it we've done so much more, though the type of coverage that refinery has done, the scope I mean, um has really widened over, you know, since its inception.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:42.240
It's got it started as a fashion brand, and then next thing you know, it was like Trump, Trump, Trump, you know, and then it was like, you know, money diaries.
00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:44.639
And so the scope ended up being pretty wide.
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:51.679
And when I came, I really just took a hardcore look at um where what do people think of when they think of refinery?
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.039
Where are we breaking through?
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.759
Where do we, where have we developed authority, right?
00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:57.679
Um, and that trust from our audience.
00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.360
And that's that's really important.
00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:05.440
So um literally just earlier this week, we three days ago, um, we launched R29 style.
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:07.759
And and and R29 style isn't one thing, right?
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.799
It's really an ecosystem where you can find fashion, beauty, shopping information from refinery, right?
00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.399
You can discover new brands, um, you can buy from those brands on site.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.000
Um, you can find us on TikTok.
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.159
We relaunched our Instagram, which had um been on hiatus for a while.
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:23.919
Um, you get to know our editors.
00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:37.039
I think it's really important to form a relationship between, you know, the people behind the bylines, behind the scenes, behind, you know, all the content that we're producing, the newsletters, all the above, um, and really create that relationship, right?
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:47.440
And you kind of know, like, all right, this is so-and-so, they're writing this beauty story, but um, you know, I kind of can I can recognize them and you feel more of a sense of connection with them in that case.
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.039
So I'm working on that as well.
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:53.440
But we just launched um 29 Big Styles, Big Style Ideas.
00:14:53.600 --> 00:15:04.480
Um, this is a franchise that we do seasonally, um, and it includes um just kind of the trends and in beauty and in personal style and in shopping.
00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.679
And I encourage everyone here to check it out.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.720
And it's really about what's inspiring you right now, right?
00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.120
And the editors um across refinery, right?
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:19.440
And when you think about what's inspiring you, it's definitely not the same things that were inspiring you pre-pandemic, right?
00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:26.000
And so now that we're two years in, um nothing is the same when it comes to self-expression.
00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.559
And that is wildly exciting to us.
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:42.480
And, you know, when we look at at like you said, pop culture and the influences there, but also looking in inward, you know, and and spending a lot of time alone and spending a lot of time with just like your your nuclear family, whatever, whatever the last two years has been to you.
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:50.559
Um, there have been so many shifts in, especially in the world of beauty, in the world of fashion, and world of shopping and how we shop and we think about how we dress.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:52.399
Dressing is very intentional, right?
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.320
Sometimes we we don't think it is and we don't acknowledge that it is, but it is intentional.
00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:04.399
Um, and so whether it is whether you choose to just live in sweats forever, long before the pandemic, you know, whatever it is, it's still an intentional act and it's not neutral.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:10.480
And that um for us, like really popping the hood on that is something that we dedicate um a lot of time to.
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:11.600
Absolutely.
00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:22.559
And I mean, I mean, it definitely shows and I love that you, you know, you guys are just staying true to that of, you know, we're we're um we're journalists first, you know what I mean?
00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:31.279
And I just kind of going back to what you said about people getting to know the editors, like that's yeah, it's important because you want to know who's giving you advice, who's giving the real professional advice here.
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:42.559
And I know that in on past episodes, I've you know, um, kind of this topic has come up where it's like, well, are editors losing their influence um in this huge realm of social media, right?
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:47.519
Where everyone is like um an expert and everyone is like doing something where they have an audience.
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:53.440
And it's it makes me just kind of uh wonder because growing up, I mean, I got all my advice from magazines.
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.000
So, you know, for me very interesting.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.440
It's an interesting shift.
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:06.160
Um, and you know, especially when it comes to like just representation and making sure that, you know, the information people are getting is truly curated.
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:09.440
I mean, that's what I worry about in a way as a consumer, right?
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.039
About how people are consuming media.
00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:24.000
So I would love for your opinion on that in terms of, you know, when when it comes to the engagement you have with your users, like is it, you know, what kind of differences do you think you see between this and like someone who's on TikTok?
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:30.000
You know, like I just want to like clarify for people, because everyone's like, you know, let me let me actually say this too.
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:40.079
I'm asking Simone this for everyone listening because I actually got a comment a while ago and people were like, Well, video is the new thing, you know, if you're not on video, what the hell are you doing?
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:51.359
And I'm like, I don't know, telling stories of real people, like, you know, like moment for me where I was like, well, wait a minute, is social media the new um big magazines, right?
00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:52.319
Like the TikTok roles.
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.759
That's why I want your opinion on that.
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:58.000
Like this, I mean, it's in my humble opinion, it's it's been that way, right?
00:17:58.160 --> 00:17:59.519
Like it isn't binary.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:08.960
I think there's this idea of like, it's either text or it's TikTok, you know, and it's like, no, it can be text, tick tock, newsletter, podcast, magazine, you know what I mean?
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:11.039
Netflix, it could be it's it's linear.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.559
It's it's really, we have so many options now, right?
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:23.680
And I think um, this is something we talk about all the time, you know, at refinery, is who what are you what audience are you trying to reach?
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:25.839
And what is the best way to tell this story?
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.000
What are you trying to accomplish in this story?
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.160
And when you're thinking about that, right?
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.279
Like, say it's like, I want to tell people about farm farm to bottle formulations and skincare, right?
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.400
And it's like, okay, well, is this like a general population story?
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:39.920
Do you not does it not matter?
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:44.160
Not every story has to be like this is specifically targeted to, you know, Gen Z, right?
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:49.680
Like, not everything has to be that rigid, but just put just doing the exercise in your mind.
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.079
Who are you trying to reach with this information, right?
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.440
It could be a personal essay, it doesn't have to be something that's like deeply reported.
00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:05.759
It can be like, this is an important story, an experience that I want to share, um, and that people can learn from it, whether it's there, whether whether they can relate or whether that they just want to be informed, right?
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.000
And so again, who are you trying to reach?
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.359
What are you trying to accomplish?
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:18.240
And then after that, the follow-up question is where is the best place to tell the story, the best format in order to really reach the people you're trying to reach, right?
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:31.279
And so um it's really important that again, in my humble opinion, that people really think through those questions as they're publishing, because sometimes the best place to tell that story is on Instagram and a carousel.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:38.559
Sometimes it should probably be a documentary that you try to, you know, take to a studio and develop, right?
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:45.119
Sometimes it should be a straight up 800-word article that is very voicey and well reported and has in a brilliant headline, right?
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.279
Um and sometimes it's all of those things, right?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.359
A lot of times those things are interconnected, right?
00:19:49.440 --> 00:20:03.200
You get some documentary idea based off of an article that you reported, um, you know, someone that the the personal story in the article, and you're like, you know what, this this actually deserves a whole lot more space and time.
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:06.960
And um, this could probably be developed into something else, right?
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:14.319
And so I'll use an example that's even more specific again for our 29 big style ideals, which we just launched this year.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:15.839
It's a trend report, right?
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:20.559
But how we how it how it lives, it lives differently in different places.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:32.720
So if you go to art.com um and you're poking around and you get to the style section and you see um we have this beautiful, beautifully designed, beautifully written and reported scroll through that's like right on your phone.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:39.200
You could be standing there waiting for your train, you can be, you know, in your bed, you can be in between meetings, whatever it is you know you have going on in your life.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.279
It's very digestible, very snackable.
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.799
But again, you'll be informed and you'll be entertained when you're done, right?
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:59.039
And then if you go to TikTok, what we did was we pulled out a couple of those trends and kind of tested um some of the newer trends or trends that might be might be new for people, we've tested those for you because we know that we have the audience's trust at refinery.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.279
And so we kind of do the work for you.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:11.200
That's part of us being a service brand where if you're curious about that trend and maybe even a little bit skeptical, we'll go test it for you on tech, we publish it on TikTok, publish it on Instagram.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:22.559
And then in our newsletter, I wrote a letters, excuse me, an editor's letter in our newsletter, our our newsletter audience um, you know, looks different from our TikTok audience, right?
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.759
So the way I'm speaking to that audience is gonna be a little bit different.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.480
And so I'm writing them a letter in a very intimate way.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:37.519
Um, but then within it, I have, you know, I pulled out a couple of trends from our big style ideas um franchise, but then I also make it shoppable in newsletter.
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.680
So if this is interesting to you, I've curated our curation, but it also made it actionable for you and close that loop.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:54.640
So that's just an example of how it's the same 29 big style ideas franchise, but depending on what environment you're in, it's gonna be a different experience to cater to those segments of audiences.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.759
Yeah, no, that be that is actually brilliant, Simone.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:59.519
But seriously, like I um, you know.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:06.960
I haven't heard that before in terms of like really adapting to what platform you're utilizing, you know, to deliver the same information.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:15.759
And that's something that I, you know, you're the first uh, you know, editor that has ever brought this up because everyone else I've talked to is like, well, you know, you just have to know your audience.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.880
I'm like, You're like, what does that mean?
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.200
I mean, no, I mean, I I here's the thing though, I I have been wanting to ask you this.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:33.759
I'm not gonna lie, I've been very just intrigued by how amazing, you know, of a job you're doing at refinery.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:45.200
Because I, you know, you're obviously, you know, as a fellow woman of color, you know, I know that this conversation has come up again and again about how women um, you know, that have like just diversity in general, right?
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:46.720
Just women are not in the right roles.
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.200
They're not high up enough, you know, to make decisions.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:55.920
And I love seeing, you know, intelligent women, regardless of what color we are, in these roles, you know, such as yours or beef.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:22.000
And I would love to get some feedback from you about how, you know, you you view um, you know, this idea of media and news for just general consumers, because it there's a huge difference in the way that a refinery presents information, such as I'll give you an example, when I go onto the website and I click on any story, any story at all, you're gonna see a very like equal spread of like faces and representation.
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:32.720
It's not like a all only black girls or only white girls or only any, it's like a very nice, like just melting pot of faces that consumers see, and you're not, you don't feel alienated.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:33.680
You see what I'm saying?
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.880
Like it's it's such a different experience than a lot of publications.
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:45.680
And so um, I can't help but attribute that to the idea of like, you know, they've put the right people in the right places, and you know, you guys are really a well-thought-out team.
00:23:45.839 --> 00:24:00.240
So I would love to get your insight on what it's like in the news and you know, the beauty publication world um in terms of just bringing this forward, like the true accessibility, the representation, inclusivity, all of it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:08.799
Well, I have to say um just a deep thank you from the bottom of my heart for just acknowledging that.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:15.440
Um, because it's important to every single editor, writer, person at uh refinery, right?
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.799
And I think, you know, to your point, um that was something that was missing.
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.359
And it was important to me to bring that to the brand because I'd already fallen in love with the brand, right?
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:26.960
Like you already had me, right?
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:40.240
Um, but as you know, a black woman coming up in the industry and someone who loves style, loves beauty, loves, you know, thinking about money in new ways and in lifestyle and and in um, you know, just kind of adults in general.
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:51.039
Um, I definitely didn't feel seen for most of my um, you know, career just in terms of like the content that's putting putting out there by by brands that have really big platforms, right?
00:24:51.119 --> 00:25:01.759
And so um the fact that you can see it and and just going on the home page, I think that's just like I want to go back to my team and be like, guys, they noticed, you know, like it's everything we talk about all day.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:05.119
And the thing about refinery is like tokenism for us is a dirty word.
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.039
Like we we're not about that life.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:14.559
Um for us, it's it's really truly um reflecting the world that we live in.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:21.039
And I think that's like a saying that people throw around very often, but really don't put action behind it.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:26.319
And there is no perfect ratio of like, let me get a redhead, let me get an able-bodied person in this shot.
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.119
Like, no, that's not.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:32.799
It's just are you reflecting the stories that that um uh people are experiencing in this world?
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:42.319
And so, you know, a lot of that does come from the inside, our team of um folks is is more diverse, you know, than when I arrived, I'll say that.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:49.839
Um, but it's not even as diverse as I want it to be, you know, that's more of a function of like, you know, just the limitations that happen to be out of my control.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:53.359
Um, but when we do have those limitations, right?
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:54.799
And I'll give you an example.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:06.079
Um, we call on people in the community, in different communities, to help us edit stories or help tell the stories that we feel like, you know what, I am um not of this community.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.759
And I think I needed some other eyes on this story, right?
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.000
And like we always tend to do that.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:21.119
Um and sometimes, like, yeah, it's it's it's like remarkable how we all have that mechanism um at different levels of our team and different roles in our team.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.480
And that's one thing that I think I'll always cherish about R29.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:42.079
Um, you know, I'll have like a call with with one of the senior editors, and they're like, you know what, Simone, I really feel like it's so like two other people should look at the story because, you know, as a as a cis white woman, I just want to make sure that I'm really capturing the experience here and I'm I don't have any blind spots.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.119
And I'm like, people don't really hear that on calls, right?
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.400
Like that's not a normal thing that that has been normal.
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.319
I should say it's not a thing that's been normalized in our media culture, in our culture in general.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.759
But it's very like just a Tuesday at refinery.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.960
And I think it comes through in our stories, and we don't always, you know, we don't do everything perfectly by any means.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:18.880
And I think what we're good at is like we go back and we watch that video or read that piece and be like, oh, we okay, okay, that was a blind spot, you know, and it's like we share that, and and it's not to just like criticize each other, it's so that hopefully we don't leave anyone out again the next time we publish something, right?
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:19.920
If that makes sense.
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.759
Um, and um yeah, I'll I'll leave it at that.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:36.720
But I I appreciate you noticing, and it's something that is wildly, deeply important to us um as a brand to um make sure that we are inclusive, not for inclusive sake.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:45.839
It is to kind of help the rest of the world um reframe its thinking so that it's not about who we're including because our society left them out.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.799
It's like, well, let's just turn that on its head, right?
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:57.519
So even like the writers, the editors, the people shooting our stories, the illustrators, um, all woven throughout the brand.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.960
Uh, we want many different perspectives.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:02.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:09.759
And that's like the most rare thing to ever see in this like whole realm, I think that I'm I'm talking about with the publication.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:10.880
That is extremely rare.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:17.279
And I absolutely just I'm in love with the fact that you you guys are doing it this way and that you have this approach.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.799
I mean, you know, let's be honest.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:26.559
I have talked to, you know, certain amazing women, um, you know, that were very much on the same page as what we're talking about here.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:33.440
And everyone said, like, you know, when you grow up in a house where, you know, most women of color, people of color, we grew up in houses where you can't make a mistake.
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.920
You better, you know what I mean, make sure everything is done right.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:42.960
And I think that that cultural aspect of it, um, which is really what I believe represents Americans in general, right?
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:50.400
This idea of like we're all from different cultures and we all have so much to bring in terms of work ethic and the way that we approach thoroughness.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:58.319
And these are all the things that really play into creating this inclusivity, this diversity um in what we're putting out there for people to see.
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:05.599
And I think, you know, that's really where I get very, you know, interested in the conversation around, well, are the right people in charge?
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.920
You know, are the right people in positions?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:15.920
It's more of like, well, do they have the right upbringing and the culture and that, you know, are they bringing that to what we need, like that?
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.240
And I I don't see that, you know what I mean?
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:26.240
And it's really, really interesting to see how you guys are are really approaching just every aspect of you know, beauty, fashion, everything.
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:38.960
It's it's very relatable, you know, and that that relatability I think comes from this idea of well, we have to approach thoroughness and true journalism from multiple angles and different perspectives, which really yeah.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:56.559
So anyway, you know, I really want to I want to actually ask you about um, you know, there's not enough career advice out there at all for I think young women who are, you know, young professionals, they're coming up, they might not have, you know, all the resources that a lot of their peers have, which is something I, you know, I grew up with that in medicine.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.480
I was a mentor.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:29:59.599
I was always looking for advice.
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:08.480
And I would love to get your take on that, you know, as far as rising up in the rank of editorial and publishing, like how does that work and any advice you have?
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:13.519
Yeah, um, I'm gonna self-promote, which is like a new muscle that I'm developing.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.559
Um, we just started a new series at refinery called Get the Job, right?
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:26.160
And um we external, we we feature all types of um talent, you know, throughout the industry.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:35.119
Um, women, nine binary, underrepresented people who are just like killing it in wherever they come from, um, whatever parts of the industry they may come from.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:42.079
And um, they decided to feature me first, which made me really uncomfortable, but now that I see the finished product, it's wonderful.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.839
Um, but I'll send it to you and and your listeners as a follow-up.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:51.599
But in it, um, we talk about sort of the three things to include in a cold email, right?
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:58.559
I think one thing that's important just for anyone at any level um is establishing and cultivating relationships, right?
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:12.559
And I think for especially young people um while they're still in school, um, and then kind of those early years when they don't have a lot of experience, a lot of ambition, but not a lot of experience, um, relationships are really everything, right?
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:14.960
It doesn't even matter the industry that you're in.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.400
And so reaching out to people and introducing yourself.
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:27.759
But then when you do that, you know, any kind of cult, cold DM, cold email, cold LinkedIn message is going to feel for a lot of people really uncomfortable.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:33.599
Um, but I encourage people to kind of push themselves back, you know, push push themselves beyond that.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:46.319
And um, but when you do reach out to people, be really clear and intentional about what it is that you want, you know, and so it's saying, hey, um, you know, I love specificity, right?
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.640
I love, you know, the thing that you do at Nike really inspired me in this way.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.799
You know, I'm an intern here, or I just started my first job here, or whatever your job is.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:57.839
Um, you know, I really want to talk to you about this specific thing.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:04.640
Do you have 15 minutes for like a Zoom coffee or a coffee or whatever, um, you know, to talk to you about this, or I have a problem trying to solve, right?
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.079
And maybe they will, maybe you won't.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.519
Most of the time you might get rejected simply because of people's bandwidth, right?
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:11.200
But start developing that muscle.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:24.799
And then when you do get on the phone with them or you're able to meet them for coffee, um, again, bring that same specificity to you know the conversation, because oftentimes a lot of these people don't have a lot of time to offer, right?
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.599
Even though they they may want to in their hearts, but realistically, it just isn't always feasible.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:42.240
So bringing that, you know, three things to the conversation if you're having coffee with them that you want to get out of it, and even saying to yourself, all right, when I'm done having coffee with you know this person, when I walk away, what is it that I'm hoping to walk away with?
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:42.720
Right.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:53.680
Um, and it's sometimes, you know, what it like some of the smartest leaders and executives will do is like, okay, I'm meeting with this young person or person from a different industry or whatever, and I'm gonna have those same goals too, you know.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:33:06.799
And so, you know, it's a two-way street, but I think especially for people who tend to be less experienced, um, I think creating a framework for yourself so that um, again, you you lead with attention.
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.640
And then the second part of all of that is staying in touch, right?
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.720
We always say stay in touch, stay in touch, right?
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:14.319
But like how many of us really do?
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:20.160
And I think like that is something that uh requires consistency and requires effort.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:23.039
And um it doesn't have to be cumbersome.
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:32.240
I think one example is is say you are, you know, in your second job and you're still very new in your career, but you've done some projects that you're pretty excited about and you want to share.
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:47.759
Yes, you can share across social and share with your family members, but like that's also a good time to email that person that you met at a conference or your mother's friend who you really don't really talk to, you're kind of intimidated by, but like, you know, you know that you know they're really impressive and you admire what they do.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.400
Like you know, you can email them and say, hey, um, it's been a while since we talked or whatever.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.119
Use use the holidays as as milestones, right?
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:56.079
Happy New Year.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:57.519
Um, I hope everything's well.
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.000
I saw that thing that you did or heard about that thing.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:01.119
Congratulations on that.
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:03.839
I also wanted to share with you a couple of like highlights on my end.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:06.079
I did this project at work that I'm really excited about.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:07.440
My contribution was X.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:09.760
Hope we could get coffee this spring when you're available.
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.159
Would love to send you some dates when you have a good time.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:13.280
Hope all is well.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:14.559
Best person.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.559
Like to me, that is a short and sweet, but very intentional.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:24.400
Um, and I again, like, I don't have all the answers, but that's it, that's something that has worked for me over the years.
00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:34.079
And it allows me to constantly um cultivate relationships and not just reach out to people when I need something or in between jobs or you know, I'm in a crisis.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.039
You understand?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:37.519
No, that's that's amazing.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.679
Wow, that that was really, really good advice.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:40.800
I love all of that.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:43.039
I completely, completely agree with you.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.800
And, you know, that is very, very solid and and a real layout.
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:55.679
So everyone listening, if you're interested in editorial editorial and journalism, please listen to Simone's advice because everything she said, yes, I 100% agree with.
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.320
I know I had the same or similar, you know, experiences going through like the medical field.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:08.320
It's like reaching out, making sure I'm not even lying, Simone, with us with our applications, it's like if you don't reach out like 18 times, like you're never gonna land a residency.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:08.960
Like that kind of.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:09.760
Right, right.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:10.559
Like just keep trying.
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.920
You know, it sounds like cliche, but like please keep trying.
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.440
Yes, 100%.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:35.119
Um, you know, and I really love that um people are now realizing just how difficult it is to be a journalist and to really make it because I mean, just in the last decade, and and correct me if I'm wrong, I've seen this like huge um, you know, change in in a good way of just quality over quantity.
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:49.840
Um, I I've really noticed that, you know, the bar is set higher now for journalism, um, you know, by far, and especially in a world where we live with where we're dealing with all sorts of opinions, especially, you know, keeping it on topic for the podcast, skincare, right?
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.880
For example, everyone's an expert, everyone's got something to say.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:59.920
But then for editors, we do have this higher bar set in terms of we want the real deal, we want you to, you know, to deliver this.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:06.559
So I guess if people can start training for that kind of mindset early, that would be, you know, just very beneficial for their careers.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.639
So I I love that you offered that advice.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.800
Um, now I want to round up the episode because I do have some rapid fire questions for you.
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:16.079
Um, and they're just they're very easy, don't worry.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:21.199
But I think it's a fun little thing I want to start doing here.
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:26.800
And um, I'm sure everyone's really curious uh in terms of like what you have, you know, around you and stuff.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:27.760
So let me get started.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:32.239
Um, the first one, uh, how many unread emails do you have right now in your inbox?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.599
Uh let me see.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:40.880
It's an embarrassing amount.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:42.400
Is it over a thousand?
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:43.519
It is.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:44.079
Okay.
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:45.519
It is.
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:52.159
Um, but yeah, um, next one, favorite moisturizer right now.
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:57.360
Uh dermalogica active moist.
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:58.239
Okay.
00:36:58.719 --> 00:36:59.840
Um, makeup item.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.000
It could be anything like eyeliner or anything.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:03.679
Oh, lip balm all day.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.119
This is in the in the winter.
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:11.920
In the in the summer, it's definitely um uh a cobalt blue eyeliner or mascara.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:14.079
Oh, I love that.
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.039
Oh my gosh.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.679
That's that's my jam all day.
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.000
I just I remember like, you know, when we all used to wear like the white or the cobalt.
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:22.480
Oh my gosh.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.079
Oh my gosh, yes, the white.
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:24.960
I remember that.
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.239
Um, okay.
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:38.320
What can we always find in Simone's purse or desk or car or anywhere you need something like immediate access to, like a beauty product or skincare product, anything like that.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:41.360
Oh, I have I have construction worker hands, man.
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.039
Lotion all day.
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:43.920
All day.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:45.039
Usually keels.
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:46.719
I need something that's kind of thick.
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:53.679
Um, yeah, yeah, some kind of hand because it's like the hand sanitizer that sits next to the hands, you know, sits next to the lotion.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:57.360
So, like, you know, I I have to be able to moisturize shortly after.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:37:58.320
I love that.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:37:58.960
That's so cool.
00:37:59.039 --> 00:37:59.599
I'm the same way.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:00.239
Moisturizer.
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:04.000
Every brand I interview, I'm like, do you guys have a hand cream?
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:08.480
Oh, that's really cool.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:11.519
Um, well, those were just some I had, and I'm I'm so thankful.
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:12.960
Thank you for being such a good sport.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:17.920
And um absolutely thank you again for having me and just kind of being so in tune with the brand.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:25.199
And we hope, you know, others uh see what you see because we really are committed to serving our audiences and you've just been so great.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.480
So um this was this was such a highlight of my day.
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.239
Thank you so much, and I love that.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.840
And yes, I'm a huge fan of Refinery 29, everyone listening.
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:40.079
If you have not already like scoured the website and read every article, please, I really urge you go check it out.
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:46.960
Um, the whole, like I said, you know, as soon as you get onto the web page, it's like, oh, cool, these people look like me.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:48.159
I feel like I belong.
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:56.400
So I really urge all of our listeners, please check out the publication and leave any questions you have for Simone.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:01.920
I know that, you know, like I said, Devil Awares Prada and all these movies paint this like image of editor in chiefs.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:05.760
And I would love to see what kind of questions do you guys have um, you know, going forward.
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:07.039
But thank you so much, Simone.
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.800
This has been such an honor.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:09.599
I really mean that.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:10.239
Thank you.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:12.960
May May I make one last plug?
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:14.079
Absolutely.
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:18.719
Okay, this is because I know your audience is very heavy, like beauty, you know, aficionados.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:21.920
Um, R29 style on Instagram, find us there.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:22.880
Thank you.
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:24.400
Yeah, definitely.
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:25.280
I can even tag that.
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:25.920
I'll tag that.
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.679
Yes, we'd love that, please.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:29.119
Yes, absolutely.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:30.079
Definitely check them out.
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:36.800
And also, huge shout out to Kirby Johnson because I know you guys just it's just sign Gloss Angels.
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:38.960
I love the podcast, it's amazing.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:46.239
Um, so everyone listening, definitely check out Gloss Angels if you haven't already, which I'm sure you guys have, but I'm so excited to see what you guys do together.
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:47.679
It's gonna be so good.
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:59.280
And and just so everyone knows, like a little bit of context, um, Refinery just entered a partnership with um Gloss Angeles, and um they are Sarah Tan and Kirby Johnson.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.880
Sarah Tan is also the beauty director um at Refinery.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:10.719
And so she's got you know her hands in both pots, and it's wonderful because she's driving the direction of our beauty coverage.
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:17.840
Um, but also fellow journalist uh Kirby Johnson is her partner crime on the podcast, and um, we're gonna be partnering.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:26.880
And what you see um now with their awesome podcasts is is gonna be more of that, and we're just gonna compliment, you know, what they're doing, and they're gonna continue to drive the editorial vision there.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.000
So so excited.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.360
Thank you for for mentioning that.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:30.480
Appreciate that.
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.159
Oh, I'm very excited, and I can't wait to see what's up and coming.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:39.039
And um, yeah, again, huge shout out to Sarah and Kirby, and you guys are gonna do such great work.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:41.039
So I can't wait to see.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:42.960
Amazing, amazing.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:45.199
Well, I will be back listening.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.320
Thank you so much, Simone.
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:47.280
This was wonderful.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:48.400
Thank you.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.519
Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:56.480
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00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:58.960
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