Walker Cup At Lahinch: The Amateur Golf Standard

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Hello everyone and welcome.
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Today we have a special edition of Skeptic's Guide.
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And again, this is related to partly my background in working with as a caddy, Jay Sigel, in the 1982 amateur.
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And I'm here with Jay Sigel's book, um, the co-writer, um, John Riley.
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And when we started talking about the book, it brought back memories, but this week is a special week because this is Walker Cup week.
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It's the 51st Walker Cup, and it's at La Hinch in Ireland, which happens to be where my family is from, County Clare, my grandparents.
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And I just think that there's a lot to talk about regarding golf and La Hinch and the history of amateurs and their participation, going back to Francis Ouimet and Bobby Jones.
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John, you love the Walker Cup, I love the Walker Cup.
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Tell me what you think it is about the Walker Cup that makes it so special for those weekend golfers and the people who are you know gonna be watching this weekend.
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Well, Steve, great to be back with you.
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and talk about the guy we admire so much, Jay Sigel, and to talk about the Walker Cup because I had a great opportunity with working with Jay and really hearing in his own words about the nine Walker Cups that he played in, a a record that I think we probably would both agree will never be matched, and I don't know if anyone feels that it ever will.
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Although we do have something interesting this year, and that is that Stuart Hagenstadt is going to be playing in his sixth Walker Cup, which is very, very impressive.
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And is there an outside possibility that that he could play golf , you know, in in the years ahead at that level to still compete against those college kids to make that Walker Cup team.
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The you know, by contrast, for instance, Hagenstadt much, much younger in terms of his time with the Walker Cup, reaching six at the age of 35.
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Jay didn't play in his first until the age of 33, and his last days before his 50th birthday.
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So a pretty pretty big contrast between the two.
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And I think it just adds to the incredible nature of Jay's longevity that it even happened in in later years towards middle age, , how good he was.
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But it's exciting that he's back in Ireland, and I hope during the course of this discussion we'll talk about Jay playing in the first Walker Cup to be contended in Ireland at Port Marnock, , which is I think a pretty interesting story.
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, but both of us have had that experience of going to La Hinge.
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I think your experience was probably more memorable than mine.
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Mine was mostly memorable because, you know, that trip out of Philly was to take the nonstop to Shannon Airport overnight.
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I can't sleep on airplanes, so we drive straight north to La Hinge.
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it's pouring rain the whole time, get on the first T and play 18 holes on jet lag, no sleep in the pouring rain.
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I can't remember a shot or a hole.
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But I do but I do remember that my roommate snored a lot, and I had to get up in the middle of the night in the hotel and go sleep in the lobby of the hotel.
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, so you know, I'm sure my experience at Lahinch will not in any way match up with the experience of these young players this week.
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Yeah, I mean, I I think about Hagstad and I looked at the rankings in the World Golf, and he's 35th, and he's the lowest ranking of all the people on the team.
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And I know he's there for his experience, and I know he's he's a great player, and he's done, you know, great things with the mid-am.
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, but I also know how hard it is to to not take one of those, you know, young amateurs who's got a got a stronger world golf rating.
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I mean, that's it's the numbers, right?
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It's not, you know, I mean, as much as we want people to be a part of it, it really comes down to who's gonna help the U.S.
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team.
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And I think when you look at it and the great players from our amateur ranks that have gone through and played it, from the Phil Mickelsons to the Davis Loves to the Billy Andreds and others, it's you know, it's a it's an experience that many people cherish.
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I personally, you know, when when I was in college and my brother were in college, my father said we should go to Ireland and before you guys get too busy with work and life.
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And so the three of us took off to Ireland with our golf clubs, and the first place we played was La Hinch.
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And I can just tell you from being a simple New Englander, um, the the course, the Lynx course, the wind off the ocean, the rain.
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I mean, I saw some people practicing yesterday in the in the rain at at La Hinch, and I just remembered, gee sh, you know, if if the side hill lies and the rough don't get you, or the gorse as they call it, I don't know.
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The wind and the rain definitely push you put you in the grave there.
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It's one of the toughest courses.
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I played Pine Valley, and I would say when you add wind and rain to La Hinch, it's gonna be a challenge.
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And it's just I love the idea of courses that have character and bring something to the table in terms of history.
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And I just think that La Hinch personally is a great memory because my family is from that part of Clare.
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And every time I hear the name, I think good thoughts, um, because it is truly a golf experience, unlike many others.
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Bally bunion's a great experience, and Port Marnock and others.
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I know that Ireland has, you know, and the Edekin sail is where my mother's family is from.
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And so I I think there are great courses over there, and I think it really is a chance in this weekend to see golf, you know, as it was originally intended, you know.
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It's part of the natural landscape and it's part of how we think about the challenges of nature.
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And I personally believe it's one of the places that everybody should have on their short list.
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But can you talk to me a little bit about how Jay got started in the the Walker Cup and why did he have such a late start?
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I know it had to do with his hand and other things in his life, but he really found a calling there.
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I think that I I use the term calling probably too much, but it felt to me like when he was with those other amateurs and he was the older guy in the group, he kind of brought um, you know, a special it to the tournament.
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And it wasn't that he you know didn't deserve to be there because of his age, it was because he was, in many people's view, the symbol of amateur golf.
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I mean, we had we met, we had Bobby Jones, we had others in the 50s and 60s, but when you get to the 70s and 80s and 90s, I mean it it was the Jay Sigal show.
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And tell talk to me a little bit about why where you think the the Walker Cup fits in the overall world of golf, and then how it fit in Jay's life.
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Yeah, you you mentioned a name as you were forming the question.
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you mentioned the name Billy Andrade, and Billy Andrade was of course someone I interviewed for the book.
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you know what was interesting as Jay and I went through hours and hours and hours of interviews.
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But when, you know, and I had said to him halfway through, I said, Jay, I've got to get started with writing based on everything we've done so far.
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I'm gonna have a lot of other questions about details and come back to you.
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But um, but he also gave me a list of people to talk to um, you know, to to to share their insights from their experience at these events or playing with or Jay as a teammate, like in the Walker Cup or as an opponent.
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And one of those on the list was Billy Andrade.
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And um when you talk about that , I don't know, I'll call it the aura of Jay Siegel at that time in those days as this middle-age amateur.
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when Billy Andrade called me back when I contacted him, he was calling me from an airport on his way to another senior tour event.
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In fact, I think he was on his way to Mexico.
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And um, I answered the phone and he said, , John, this is Billy Andrade.
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And I said, Yeah, Billy, thanks for calling me back.
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He said, as I understand it, you want to speak to me about the Bobby Jones of my generation.
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And boy, did that resonate.
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, here's a guy who was his partner in the Walker Cup.
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, here's a guy who he competed against.
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In fact, he beat him in the North and South and went on to win that very, very prestigious amateur championship, , who knew Jay extremely well as a player and then later even as a friend who could add that, you know, sort of immediate perspective of you wanted to talk to me about the Bobby Jones of my generation.
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But Jay, , for what many people would be mid-career, you know, at about the age 30, he set a goal for himself very, very quietly that he wanted to make the Walker Cup team.
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He didn't talk really much about winning the U.S.
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amateur, he didn't talk much about the Walker Cup team, but he would be asked about it from time to time, and he would say, yes, that's that's my goal.
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That's one of my goals.
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we learned that later in life it's, you know, maybe top of the list of the things that were most important to him.
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And as we talk about in the book, it was really an opportunity for him to be a leader, for him to be a teammate, for him to be a mentor, , to engage in international competition, to step out of that individual eyeball-to-eyeball role that he had in the world of amateur golf.
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That, you know, today we're not friends.
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Today I'm going to beat you over the course of 18 holes because I want to win another mid-am or I want to win another national amateur or another championship of another nature.
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So the Walker Cup had a very, very early appeal to him, and he started focusing on major amateur tournaments.
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He was not having a lot of success at that time with the U.S.
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amateur getting you know knocked out early, and it was kind of frustrating to him.
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, but he he really needed to pick up a major amateur, and he won the Porter Cup in New York in 75, and he started to think this is moving me towards it.
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The next year he wins Sonny Hanna, the very, very prestigious amateur championship in Pennsylvania against all the national fields.
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So he was starting to face off against the best amateur golfers in the world, and now he was winning.
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Now he was beating them.
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So he really zeroed in in terms of his hopes that he would get on a Walker Cup team.
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And he was finally named to the Walker Cup 1977.
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And it directly coincided with the U.S.
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amateur that year being played on his home course at Aronomic.
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So he went off to, if you think about this year, both the PGA was played at Aronomic, Jay's home course, and the um U.S.
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Open was played at Shinnecock Hills, and that's where they played the Walker Cup that year.
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So he went off to Shinnecock.
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, one of his teammates was Fred Ridley, and um he went straight back from New York to Philadelphia, to Aronimic, to play in the U.S.
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amateur, and he ended up losing in the semifinals that year, but really knew at that point that a U.S.
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amateur title was in his future.
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But he also said at that time, and he said it from the moment they raised the flag, that he said he had tears in his eyes, that the Walker Cup to him was an experience of a lifetime.
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He was going to treasure it, he was going to do everything in his power to be back again.
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And that's what he did year after year.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that when I came across him in 1982, you know, that he had Porter Cups and he had Philadelphia amateurs and Pennsylvania amateurs, but the one thing that stood out to me was the the winning the British Amp in 79.
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Because to me, going over there, playing a course you're unfamiliar with, um it takes a different type of golf.
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You have to be consistently good, you have to not let the strangeness of the the layouts and the strangeness of the you know the games, I I think that and this is maybe a gross simplification, but on flat courses, the US golfers are unbelievably successful and able to dial in.
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But once you put you know some some burns or some you know some deep pot bunkers or some some side hill lies and downhill lies, um, you know, shot creation is really a strength of the Europeans and the um, you know, the English and Irish.
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so to me, they , you know, Sevy was the best example of that as a guy who could take any position on any part of the course and figure out a way to shape a shot around it.
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And I think that that's one of the things that Jay doesn't always get as much credit for.
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I think he's got the power off the T.
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I think he's got his very steady game, but he was also very good at looking at the lies and looking at the way the ball's gonna come and looking at the wind and trying to um, as one guy, Randy Reefert said, um, he was not a careless player.
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He was a guy who took every bit of care trying to kind of shape the right shot.
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And that comes out over, you know, his nine Walker Cups that were played, you know, at least half of them were overseas, right?
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And I think that that winning overseas is not um, you know, should not be taken lightly.
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If you can win the British AM and you can win the US Am, you've then you do the mid-am, you've covered a lot of ground against a lot of great players against all on a lot of great courses.
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Yeah, and, you know, you mention um you mentioned Jay going over in 79 and winning the amateur championship, as they call it, rather than the British amateur.
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that was a huge turning point in Jay's life and career.
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But one of the reasons it was a major turning point was because the week before the Walker Cup was at Muirfield, and he went to Muirfield to play for the U.S.
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team, arrived there only to discover that the airline had lost his clubs.
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He ended up playing the first two practice rounds with Scott Hoke, , who went on to certainly a great career on the PGA tour.
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And he played out of Scott's bag for two days to get ready for the Walker Cup.
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But finally his clubs arrived, and Jay and Scott were partners in a match bitting against Peter McAvoy and his partner.
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Peter McAvoy had just won two amateur championships in a row.
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A week later, he was going to be going for his third in a row.
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McAvoy was a master of match play.
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Jay, up to that point in the career, as I mentioned earlier, struggled with advancing in the U.S.
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amateur.
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From the time he was a boy, really, he he had hang ups about match play.
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He always felt that match play left too much to chance, left too much to luck, didn't allow time to really recover.
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he was not a fan of match play.
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And he seemed to prove it over and over again by not advancing in the U.S.
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amateur and by winning major events, including 11 Pennsylvania amateurs in a row, or not in a row, but 11 Pennsylvania amateurs, um all played at metal play.
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And the first one he played in, he played at match play.
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But um you look at that, and his career up to that point was heavily weighted with wins and success and metal play, but constantly stumbling in key moments in match play.
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During the course of the match, he and Scott Hoke with McAvoy, McAvoy said to him, Jay, I hear you don't like match play.
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Why don't you like match play?
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And Jay explains some of the reasons, kind of what I just shared with you.
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in fact, at one time he called it, he considered it Russian roulette.
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but anyway, McAvoy said to him, I said, I don't understand why you feel that way.
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I think it's easier.
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And Jay, intrigued, said, Why do you think it's easier?
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And he described to him his attitude about match play.
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And he said, Well, he said, I just consider every hole in match play to be sudden death.
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He said, I stand on the first T and I figure I got to get one up and win this hole.
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He said, and then when I go to the second T, I got to win that hole.
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It's sudden death.
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I got to win that hole too, and the next hole, and the next hole.
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It had an influence on Jay.
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he had difficulty kind of explaining it, but he said it was it was a moment for him that got him to thinking, and here he is next week, he's playing for the for the amateur championship.
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he ends up meeting in the amateur championship Michael Banalek, the other famous British golfer who had won five um amateur championships, including beating Philadelphia's Bill Heinemann twice in the finals.
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, again, just a phenomenal player.
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Jay beat Ben Alec on the way, and I'm sure it did a lot for his confidence.
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But in the end, of all things, he ends up meeting Scott Hoch in the finals, in an All-American final.
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And he beat Scott Hoch four and three.
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It's an interesting match.
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I go, we went into some detail.
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It was an important match for Jay, and we discussed it at length.
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And we we go into some detail on it in the book The Last Amateur.
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But that was a real launching point for Jay.
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You saw the results of it when you caddied for him in the U.S.
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amateur in '82, because by then he became the best match play golfer in the world.
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Yeah, I mean, I think , started on the story of Billy Andre, and I still think that's one of the great stories of him, is that when they were walking down the fairway, I forget the circumstances of what year we're at now.
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I have to finish that story because I think it's one of the greats because I can see how Billy Andrade would be nervous with being on the BBC TV and his first time in the Walker Cup, and he's paired with Jay, who you know he he knew as you know I could never
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Tell the story as well as Billy told the story, but this was his first Walker Cup.
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the Walker Cup was being held at Sunningdale, you know, one of the great courses in England, maybe maybe the best.
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And they arrived at the Walker Cup.
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And by the way, part of the story of that Walker Cup was shared with me by Fred Ridley.
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That was the first time Fred Ridley was captain.
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And it I'll start it with that.
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His story, which he actually told at the book launch, was Jay is coming off of two years as playing captain of the team, and he's the greatest amateur in golf.
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And here comes Fred Ridley as the captain of this guy that's been leading the team for these years.
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And he said that it, you know, it was it was a little tricky.
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he said, but Jay was a, you know, he was a perfect gentleman about it.
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But he said Jay had a way of communicating his message to you.
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And Ridley said he said at a meeting, he would say things like, Well, Captain, you've probably already thought of this, but here's an idea you may want to, if if you haven't already thought of it, here's an idea.
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He said he would present it in such a passive way, you know, that you could, you know, you could accept the advice and you know, and everybody listened when Jay spoke.
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So he said that was part of it.
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But I he tells me Ridley that he decides to pair Jay and Billy Andrade together for the first match.
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What's Billy Andrade's first Walker Cup?
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So I think part of this is that Jay will kind of help smooth it over for Billy, calm his nerves, you know, they'll do well together, and Billy's a great player.
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And however Andrade says to me, he says, Boy, I find out I'm playing with Jay.
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That makes me even more nervous.
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He said, Oh my God, I mean it's Jay Siegel, and it's my first Walker Cup.
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He said, and we we get almost ready to tee off that day, and Jay comes up to me and he goes, Billy, so what do you want to do?
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Do you want to hit the drive off the first T or do you want to hit from the fairway?
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Well, right away my mind's racing, and I'm this is Billy talking.
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my mind's racing, and I'm thinking, wow, , I don't think I want to hit my first shot in a walker cup off the first T in front of Jay.
00:25:16.689 --> 00:25:18.609
So I said, Jay, no, why don't you go first?
00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:19.889
I'll hit from the fairway.
00:25:19.889 --> 00:25:24.769
He says, Jay, Jay steps up and just laces it about 300 down the middle.
00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:28.129
, he said, on this relatively short part five.
00:25:28.129 --> 00:25:31.489
And he said, we start to walk out to the ball.
00:25:31.489 --> 00:25:39.169
He said, and all of a sudden, two carts with TV equipment and all of that start following us down the fairway.
00:25:39.169 --> 00:25:42.689
He said, I've never hit a shot on TV in my life.
00:25:42.689 --> 00:25:47.729
He said, So now I'm wishing I had hit the T-shot and I didn't have to hit the second shot.
00:25:47.729 --> 00:26:01.649
He said, we get out to the fairway, we reach the ball, and the right club, or I figure the right club is a five-iron, because he's hit it so far that I can cover the bunker.
00:26:01.649 --> 00:26:04.849
He says, but the pin is way back on the left side.
00:26:04.849 --> 00:26:17.889
He said, and as I pull the club and I'm starting to step into the shot, Jay kind of comes up to me quietly and he says, Billy, nothing fancy here, middle of the green.
00:26:17.889 --> 00:26:24.929
And Billy, and then Billy said, John, it was like the voice of God.
00:26:24.929 --> 00:26:26.129
He said.
00:26:26.129 --> 00:26:43.169
So he said, now, of course, now I got so much adrenaline pumping, I immediately pull it left, like 15 yards, and it's headed directly at the flag, just covers the bunker, rolls up and stops about three feet from the hole.
00:26:43.169 --> 00:26:47.089
And he said, I can kind of see Jay going, oh boy.
00:26:47.089 --> 00:26:49.889
And we walk up there and there's a ball sitting three feet.
00:26:49.889 --> 00:26:56.929
Jay steps up, knocks it in the hole, and that's it for Eagle, and we go on and we win the match.
00:26:56.929 --> 00:27:03.969
So he said, that was my, you know, my first great experience with Jay in the Walker Cup.
00:27:04.289 --> 00:27:12.049
Yeah, I mean, I remember that he wasn't a man of many words, so that when he said something, it really did mean something.
00:27:12.049 --> 00:27:28.929
And and as he, you know, and my great story on the book was when he was playing Bobby Lewis and that whole incident where he's you know, he Bobby Lewis is hitting a shot and it's over a bunker and it's a tight pin placement, and I say, get in the bunker.
00:27:28.929 --> 00:27:35.729
And Jay stops and says, you know, you can say whatever you want, cheering for me.
00:27:35.729 --> 00:27:38.369
He says, but don't ever cheer against my opponent.
00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:40.209
That's not the way I want to win.
00:27:40.209 --> 00:27:54.369
I want to win based on my my swing in my game, not based on anything I do with you know words or and I knew then that was only the third fourth hole of caddying for him in the tournament.
00:27:54.369 --> 00:28:05.489
actually we we did the qualifying, but that was the fourth hole of match play against the number one seed, Bobby Lewis And that was to me kind of an epitome of Jay.
00:28:05.489 --> 00:28:11.409
He was a straight shooter and he wanted to always be doing the right thing.
00:28:11.409 --> 00:28:30.929
And I think that when we look at people, and you look at these amateurs today so early in their careers, to have a guy like Jay as their captain or teammate in the in the Walker Cup, I gotta think it gave them a sense of boy, this guy's played every course.
00:28:30.929 --> 00:28:43.169
He plays, you know, he's played how many of these amateurs has he played in winning the Porter Cups, the the different North South, the Northeast Amateur, the Sunnehanna.
00:28:43.329 --> 00:28:52.769
I think that all of these people have had seen him and now up close as a teammate, it has to be a very different perspective.
00:28:52.769 --> 00:29:00.529
I love the fact that it takes golf the individual sport, and the Walker Cup makes it all about the team.
00:29:00.529 --> 00:29:05.489
How do you how do you how do you take the best golfer on the other team and neutralize him?
00:29:05.489 --> 00:29:13.249
How do you take the the weaker golfer and make sure you put somebody out that will, you know, will get you that one point?
00:29:13.249 --> 00:29:25.649
And I know the US has had great success, but I still think of it as, you know, just look at the names to Colin Montgomery's other people um who have been involved.
00:29:25.649 --> 00:29:39.169
And I I think, you know, as I've heard from the recent you know, Hall of Fame incidents is that you know, in the last time when they were voting, Colin Montgomery talked for half an hour about Jay.
00:29:39.169 --> 00:29:48.049
And I think that when you look at that, it tells you that these people walking these fairways, they felt something.
00:29:48.049 --> 00:29:53.329
And I guess that's what I think the people always look for.
00:29:53.329 --> 00:29:54.769
What do I gotta do?
00:29:54.769 --> 00:30:04.849
You know, and my my analogy with Jay is that preparation, you know, it makes a lot of good luck come, right?
00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:17.329
I mean, if you're ultimately very prepared and very careful, that it's luck tends to arrive for people who put in the time and make the effort that Jay's made as an amateur.
00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:19.649
Is that how you think about it?
00:30:20.049 --> 00:30:31.729
Yeah, you know, I mean Jay was um he was almost Hogan-like in terms of his demeanor.
00:30:31.729 --> 00:30:51.809
He could be cold and he could be calculating, yet when he talked about being captain of the Walker Cup team those two years, you know, it definitely created stresses for him that he did not experience in other ways.
00:30:51.809 --> 00:31:09.969
In fact, he commented at one point, I wish I had paid more attention, you know, to things like my own game, you know, I because I worried so much about how I was going to combine players or do this or do that, because he did um in his first year as captain, he lost a match.
00:31:09.969 --> 00:31:18.609
And I mean he had a phenomenal record, obviously, winning a huge percentage of his matches, but it became a bit of a distraction.
00:31:18.609 --> 00:31:20.289
But you mentioned Colin Montgomery.
00:31:20.289 --> 00:31:38.129
I mean, one of the most interesting to me, parts of the book, parts of Jay's story is the year that he was captain and it was played at Pine Valley, which of course he was a member of Pine Valley, and he knew Pine Valley like the back of his hand.
00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:41.569
But there's even like 10 crumps.
00:31:42.049 --> 00:31:42.529
Nine.
00:31:43.169 --> 00:31:43.729
Nine, okay.
00:31:44.049 --> 00:31:46.689
So that's that's another record that's not gonna be broken.
00:31:46.689 --> 00:31:52.449
Like I don't think there's much doubt about that one either.
00:31:52.449 --> 00:31:58.529
But he ends up playing Montgomery.
00:31:58.529 --> 00:32:04.929
First of all, he had Scott Verplank as his partner, and they went to the very last hole and halved it.
00:32:04.929 --> 00:32:09.889
Then he went out against Montgomery in singles.
00:32:09.889 --> 00:32:15.409
And Montgomery had, you know, I mean, you we all know Montgomery from his whole career.
00:32:15.409 --> 00:32:19.809
I mean, that was one confident, cocky son of a gun.
00:32:19.809 --> 00:32:25.409
, you know, and I mean, obviously, the Americans love to hate him at every Ryder Cup.
00:32:25.489 --> 00:32:35.249
I was there in Boston in '99, and um he he managed to take the ire of the Irish to a new level.
00:32:35.649 --> 00:32:39.969
he's one of the great characters of golf.
00:32:39.969 --> 00:32:49.969
And um he happens to, and he's a young man then, but he lets the word get out that he's gunning for Jay.
00:32:49.969 --> 00:32:52.049
He lets the word get out.
00:32:52.049 --> 00:32:53.249
What what did he say?
00:32:53.249 --> 00:32:57.569
I think his words were give me the old guy and I'll kill him.
00:32:57.569 --> 00:33:03.489
Like I mean, you can just imagine that word filtering back to Jay.
00:33:03.489 --> 00:33:08.049
Now, the fact of the matter is, is the War Cup's a blind draw.
00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:15.649
But as it turns out, who does he match up against in the first match but Montgomery?
00:33:15.649 --> 00:33:21.649
And you can just imagine what's going through Jay's mind hearing this.
00:33:21.649 --> 00:33:24.929
Give me the old guy, , and I'll kill him.
00:33:24.929 --> 00:33:28.529
He absolutely buries poor Montgomery.
00:33:28.529 --> 00:33:41.089
He's six under at the end of 14 on what some people consider the most difficult, greatest course in the world, Pine Valley, and closes out Montgomery 6-4.
00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:44.769
And , you know, that was that was Jay.
00:33:44.769 --> 00:33:48.529
I mean, he he's at he was on fire.
00:33:48.529 --> 00:33:51.969
He was hitting every fairway, he's hitting the middle of every green.
00:33:51.969 --> 00:34:01.969
He had a caddy by the name of Elmer, who to this day, if you play Pine Valley, they'll tell you nobody could read those greens like Elmer could.
00:34:01.969 --> 00:34:09.889
And Elmer's ashes are actually spread behind the 16th green at Pine Valley.
00:34:09.889 --> 00:34:16.769
so Elmer was a special guy, and they were a special pair together as teammates.
00:34:16.769 --> 00:34:27.010
And it was a phenomenal team, as you know, and consisting of people like Davis Love III and Duffy Waldorf and Sam Randolph and Scott Verplank.
00:34:27.010 --> 00:34:35.730
but it was it was sweating bullets for Jay all the way down to you know midway through the last nine holes.
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:45.890
And the guy who Jay faced over and over again, , who he became very good friends with, Bob Lewis Jr., who held the course record at Pine Valley.
00:34:45.890 --> 00:34:47.570
I didn't know that.
00:34:47.570 --> 00:34:48.850
Oh, yeah.
00:34:48.850 --> 00:34:52.770
Came through, won his match, and they captured the cup.
00:34:52.770 --> 00:34:58.130
And it was a big Xhale for Jay because up to that point in time it really could have gone either way.
00:34:58.130 --> 00:35:06.930
so, you know, it was um there's there's a lot of stories, you know, of the different Walker Cups.
00:35:06.930 --> 00:35:22.450
I think, you know, I think maybe for me the most interesting one just because it was the first thing that Jay mentioned to me when we began our interviews for the book, and that was Peachtree in 1989 when the U.S.
00:35:22.450 --> 00:35:27.090
went down to the very last hole.
00:35:27.090 --> 00:35:36.610
again with Ridley as captain of the team, with everything on the line and it all coming down to Jay.
00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:42.210
And and and it haunted Jay for the rest of his life that he felt he let the U.S.
00:35:42.210 --> 00:35:45.010
side down, and he let Ridley down.
00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:49.010
And I thought it was one of the great quotes I ever heard.
00:35:49.010 --> 00:36:03.010
Fred Ridley was quoted in the Atlanta Constitution immediately after the match, whether he was second guessing Jay is his age to put him in that anchor spot that came down to the very last putt.
00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:24.370
And Ridley said, let me tell you, he said, if I had it to do all over again, now this is being quoted in 1989 in the Atlanta Constitution, if I had to do it all over again, I'd go out there, I'd put that ball down in the same place, and that's exactly the guy I'd want in that spot.
00:36:24.370 --> 00:36:29.090
I'd put the clubs in club in his hand, and I'd want him in charge.
00:36:29.090 --> 00:36:35.250
And, you know, that was the level of respect that Ridley had.
00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:41.090
But Jay told me, he said, John, I never experienced pressure like that in my life.
00:36:41.090 --> 00:36:50.690
You know, all the fans yelling USA, USA, and you know, he he he didn't execute.
00:36:50.690 --> 00:36:58.130
They ended up tying the hole, and the cup went to GB and I for the first time on U.S.
00:36:58.130 --> 00:36:58.930
soil.
00:36:58.930 --> 00:37:06.610
And as I say, the first time I interviewed Jay, he said to me, he said, I need to talk about that Walker Cup.
00:37:06.610 --> 00:37:07.490
I let the U.S.
00:37:07.490 --> 00:37:08.450
side down.
00:37:08.450 --> 00:37:17.410
And this is a guy who, you know, who did it all, but what he wanted to talk about right away is the time that he didn't do it.
00:37:17.410 --> 00:37:20.530
interesting thing about that, the U.S.
00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:24.530
amateur was played at Marion the following year.
00:37:24.530 --> 00:37:28.370
Jay made the quarterfinals for the seventh time at the U.S.
00:37:28.370 --> 00:37:30.210
Amateur the following year.
00:37:30.210 --> 00:37:38.210
On that Walker Cup team was Robert Gamez, was Phil Mickelson, just some fantastic names and players.
00:37:38.210 --> 00:37:42.850
By time the quarterfinals were rolled around, both the British team and the U.S.
00:37:42.850 --> 00:37:55.650
team, there was one guy still standing at Marion, and it was Jay Sigal, who had qualified, won all his matches up to that point, and was still playing the day of the quarterfinal.
00:37:55.650 --> 00:38:12.770
So, I mean, he he was even after coming off of probably the biggest disappointment of his career, , he comes back that strong again with the hometown in front in front of the hometown.
00:38:13.090 --> 00:38:31.090
Yeah, I mean I I look at the the losses, and , you know, I I think that anybody who looks at the career um and looks at the person says, you know, um the the losses, you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
00:38:31.090 --> 00:38:48.210
And I know that when we talked about cancer and I had cancer and Jay, you know, I shared this story with a group of the golfers at one of the events, and I think that you know Jay was anything for putting himself in the ring.
00:38:48.210 --> 00:38:59.890
And Teddy Roosevelt quoted you know, who's gonna step up into the ring and battle when it's when when the odds are against you and you think you can't.
00:38:59.890 --> 00:39:03.810
And I I think of him as a battler.
00:39:03.810 --> 00:39:14.450
he battled back from that injury to his hand, he battled back in many, many matches where he was down and then he you know run on a four or five under streak.
00:39:14.450 --> 00:39:20.610
And people are just like, you can never count out determination and grit.
00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:28.130
And that's kind of what I think um Jay quietly delivered over and over and over again.
00:39:28.130 --> 00:39:33.810
Is I think the story of Monty with I'm gonna beat the old guy.
00:39:33.810 --> 00:39:37.890
I mean, I just can't imagine how that made the motive turn.
00:39:37.890 --> 00:39:44.130
And I I think that's you know, I think that's something for all of us to keep, you know.
00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:46.690
You never know how a round's gonna end.
00:39:46.690 --> 00:39:48.930
You never know how a match is gonna end.
00:39:48.930 --> 00:39:53.730
You put it all out there on every shot, and that's all that's all you can do.
00:39:53.890 --> 00:39:58.930
So, you know, as they say, the other the other guy, the other side has a say, you know.
00:39:58.930 --> 00:40:03.570
So yeah, you're something it's particularly true in match play.
00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:10.930
You are constantly, you know, facing off swing after swing, and you've got to answer.
00:40:10.930 --> 00:40:21.810
And um, you know, Jay, I I think he was an autopilot after a while, but but he listened to McAvoy at Muirfield.
00:40:21.810 --> 00:40:28.130
And, you know, who's to say that that message, you know, Jay, I consider it easier.
00:40:28.130 --> 00:40:31.170
I consider every whole sudden death.
00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:45.250
Jay gave McAvoy a lot of credit for that comment, and he certainly delivered the following week, and his career took off in the stratosphere, as we know, with five more U.S.
00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:47.090
national championships.
00:40:47.090 --> 00:40:49.090
, one of the incredible records.
00:40:49.090 --> 00:41:09.250
You know, one of the things that I want to mention, I don't know how much time we've got remaining, but because the Walker Cups in Ireland, um Jay actually played in the first Walker Cup in Ireland at Port Marno near Dublin.
00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:15.490
And that was a pretty amazing experience.
00:41:15.490 --> 00:41:25.090
because it was the first Walker Cup, um the the turnout of the fans in Ireland was overwhelming.
00:41:25.090 --> 00:41:36.850
the um the pairings, Jay was for the first round, Jay was paired with Alan Doyle.
00:41:36.850 --> 00:41:41.650
And I don't know if everybody remembers Alan Doyle.
00:41:41.650 --> 00:41:51.170
He had a he had a a career, you know, that certainly was brief compared to Jay's, but it was incredibly dominant.
00:41:51.170 --> 00:41:56.130
I mean, he he beat Jay's record for wins at Sonny Hannah.
00:41:56.130 --> 00:41:58.130
he beat Tiger Woods.
00:41:58.130 --> 00:42:10.210
Now, Tiger was a boy, of course, like 16, 17 years old, but he beat Tiger Woods by like 13 shots at Sonny Hannah, , and Jay finished second, , but still back.
00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:17.490
I mean, he was a very, very strong player and and went on to great things on the senior golf tour as well.
00:42:17.490 --> 00:42:26.210
But um Doyle told me the story of the experience of being on that first T.
00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:30.290
He said, I think half of Ireland had turned out on the first T.
00:42:30.290 --> 00:42:42.210
He said there had to be 10,000 people lining the fairway because we're playing Paul McGinley and Patrick Harrington, and it's me and Jack.
00:42:42.210 --> 00:43:19.250
And so um, you know, he said you couldn't hear, you couldn't think, you know, and but but anyway, he he he he told the story of how they got up in the match, and finally um, you know, they closed him out on the 17th hole based on a bunker shot after a conversation that that Jay and and Alan and Doyle had had that where they had sort of a difference of what club Jay was going to hit from the fairway, and it was kind of a funny story to tell it in the book.
00:43:19.250 --> 00:43:36.930
But but the part of that story that I wanted to tell is that I was invited on the golf channel um during the program live from live from the PGA in April of this year.
00:43:36.930 --> 00:43:39.490
It was right after the book came out.
00:43:39.490 --> 00:43:56.610
And of course um the interesting part about that is that on the program just before I went on to be interviewed, was Paul McGinley with Brandel Chambly.
00:43:56.610 --> 00:44:16.930
And they walked back afterwards, and I was standing in the back, you know, waiting for my turn to go on and to speak, and we made sort of small talk, and I happened to mention to McGinley, McGinley said to me, he said, so you wrote the book on Jay.
00:44:16.930 --> 00:44:18.450
And I said, Yeah.
00:44:18.450 --> 00:44:29.970
He said, , yeah, he said, , you know, I played Jay, I played with Jay often, but I mainly I played him in the Walker Cup at at Port Marnock.
00:44:29.970 --> 00:44:31.970
And I said, Oh, I remember that well.
00:44:31.970 --> 00:44:34.210
I said, I wrote about it in the book.
00:44:34.210 --> 00:44:39.250
He said, Yeah, he says, it was a he said it was a great experience.
00:44:39.250 --> 00:44:43.250
He said Patty and I, now Said you got to remember we're young.
00:44:43.250 --> 00:44:48.770
I think I think McGinley was like 24, and I think I think Patrick had just turned 20.
00:44:48.770 --> 00:44:53.970
And they were two sensations in, you know, young players in Ireland.
00:44:53.970 --> 00:45:09.330
And he said that I'm standing there, and he said, Doyle was famous for this sort of almost hockey swing that he took, you know, real short and quick and and anything but you know the classic golf swing.
00:45:09.330 --> 00:45:14.450
And he said, I'm standing there next to Prack and I'm watching this guy warm up.
00:45:14.450 --> 00:45:22.930
And I turned to I turned to Patty and I said, Hey Patty, Patty, we got this match.
00:45:22.930 --> 00:45:31.650
And and then McGinley says, the next thing I know, we're three down after three.
00:45:31.650 --> 00:45:41.410
So anyway, everybody's got their Jay story out there, even when you end up on the golf channel and you run into Paul McGinley.
00:45:41.890 --> 00:45:45.650
Yeah, I mean, I think that the reason we're doing this is to talk about the Walker Cup.
00:45:45.650 --> 00:45:56.450
So I guess I'd like to kind of if you could give people watching today's event one thing or one, you know, something to look at this weekend.
00:45:56.450 --> 00:46:00.930
I mean, is it the , you know, is it the beach at Lahinch?
00:46:00.930 --> 00:46:06.450
Is it the blind R3 where they have a little rock that tells you where the pin is?
00:46:06.450 --> 00:46:15.730
Or I I think there's so many, um and the course itself, the history and who who designed it and how it was, how it got there.
00:46:15.730 --> 00:46:33.730
I just think the , you know, it's a wonderful experience to to kind of look at how golf at its basic level along the links courses in England and Ireland, , it's about the breezes and the water and the the storms coming in off the water.
00:46:33.730 --> 00:46:39.090
I mean, what do you think you should look at to appreciate this weekend at the Walker Cup?
00:46:39.490 --> 00:46:55.890
Well, among other things, you know, if you're physically there, and you you'll probably get great crowds there, but in the U.S., , you know, Walker Cups, , the attendance is not like, you know, you're going to the Masters.
00:46:55.890 --> 00:46:59.970
, you get a great opportunity to see the action up close.
00:46:59.970 --> 00:47:07.970
But you, you know, you mentioned the being right on the sea, right on the Atlantic.
00:47:07.970 --> 00:47:14.610
of course, if you step out just a little bit and look up, look up the coast, you can see the cliffs of Moor.
00:47:14.610 --> 00:47:20.450
I mean, you're in some of the most spectacular scenery you'll ever see anywhere.
00:47:20.450 --> 00:47:23.570
, but you've got to be able to see.
00:47:23.570 --> 00:47:37.570
So you're hoping that it's not raining so hard and blowing so hard that you're spending the whole time trying to be dry and trying to keep the grips dry and trying to be able to see and get good readings and and and all of that.
00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:43.890
But I generally think more of the players and the dynamics of the whole alternate shot game.
00:47:43.890 --> 00:47:48.050
I mean, it's it's so different for everybody.
00:47:48.050 --> 00:47:53.330
and another Walker Cup example from Jay's past.
00:47:53.330 --> 00:47:59.650
Jay played in the Walker Cup at Cypress Point in 1981.
00:47:59.650 --> 00:48:02.690
His partner was Hal Sutton.
00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:07.490
Now, Jay wasn't the number one amateur in the world that year.
00:48:07.490 --> 00:48:22.610
I think he was two or three, but Hal Sutton was the number one amateur in the world and on his way to a phenomenal PGA career, and they play they play a couple of kids, including Ronan Rafferty.
00:48:22.610 --> 00:48:26.370
He was only 17 from Ireland, and they lose to him.
00:48:26.370 --> 00:48:33.890
You know, and it's just the crazy kind of vagaries that go on in alternate shot golf.
00:48:33.890 --> 00:48:36.690
You've got to match up well with your partner.
00:48:36.690 --> 00:48:46.610
You've got to, you know, you've got to somehow or other stay in the game when you're hitting very few shots, , you know, and keep that concentration.
00:48:46.610 --> 00:48:51.570
so it was it was quite an experience for Jay and for Hal.
00:48:51.570 --> 00:48:54.370
And it was a competitive Walker Cup.
00:48:54.370 --> 00:49:11.810
Now, Jay turned around and really probably could have tied Hogan's record in in his actual one-on-one match play, but it ended so early, I think, on the 13th or 14th hole, that they just walked in.
00:49:11.810 --> 00:49:14.130
I think he was six under at the time.
00:49:14.130 --> 00:49:18.450
But , you know, you get you get both dynamics.
00:49:18.450 --> 00:49:27.570
You get, you know, you can be 100% into your own game in the individual side, but then into that alternate shot changes everything.
00:49:27.570 --> 00:49:33.570
So that's that's the one thing I would look at and and and in enjoy that part of the game.
00:49:33.970 --> 00:49:50.050
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the British side having six repeat players, because they're saying that's one of the more experienced teams they have, because a lot of people move on and do other things and don't play in multiple Walker Cups in Britain, just like in the US.
00:49:50.050 --> 00:50:11.650
And I just look at some of the players and the matches we had at um at Marion in the US amateur recently, and I think seeing some of those same players going up potentially against each other that were in the final there, Thang and um Wally, I I just think it's gonna be a fun weekend.
00:50:11.650 --> 00:50:13.810
And I hope everybody enjoys it.
00:50:13.810 --> 00:50:20.610
I hope everybody thinks about the history, and this is the 51st time, so we're over a hundred years of Walker Cup.
00:50:20.610 --> 00:50:33.170
And, you know, being from Brookline where Francis We met made his history, um, thinking about Bobby Jones as I lived in Atlanta and played um courses down there in Peachtree.
00:50:33.170 --> 00:50:39.410
I I think of, you know, the masters and all the history tied to all these men.
00:50:39.410 --> 00:50:44.050
it's a great, it's a great story and it's a great to learn about.
00:50:44.050 --> 00:50:48.290
And if you really want to understand golf, I think you're right.
00:50:48.290 --> 00:51:02.610
Going to one of these events is a very good return on your investment because the the fees aren't that large, and you you you get to see these guys who you're eventually gonna see winning opens and winning um US championships going forward.
00:51:02.610 --> 00:51:03.410
These are the best.
00:51:03.810 --> 00:51:06.690
And by the way, I would I would put in a vote for the ladies.
00:51:06.690 --> 00:51:14.050
I went to the Curtis Coast a couple years ago at Marion, and it was a it was a great experience.
00:51:14.050 --> 00:51:24.530
So um, you know, again, you know, you you're you're so close to the action, and you you're seeing the best players, you know, some of the best players in the world.
00:51:24.530 --> 00:51:28.770
I mean, you're looking at them and they're gonna be they're gonna be the ones winning the U.S.
00:51:28.770 --> 00:51:31.170
Opens and the Masters and everything tomorrow.
00:51:31.410 --> 00:51:31.890
Yeah.
00:51:31.890 --> 00:51:33.570
All right, everyone.
00:51:33.570 --> 00:51:34.770
Thanks for listening.
00:51:34.770 --> 00:51:36.210
, I hope you enjoyed it.
00:51:36.210 --> 00:51:44.370
I hope you can share this with your friends who are golfers or friends who are are interested in going to Ireland.
00:51:44.370 --> 00:51:50.690
I think it's it's gonna be a great weekend, and we hope you've enjoyed our trip down memory lane here.
00:51:50.690 --> 00:51:56.370
And , I hope you will continue to listen to Skeptics Guide to Investing.
00:51:56.370 --> 00:52:04.050
, even though this isn't all about investing, it is about how you how you face challenges and how you overcome them.
00:52:04.050 --> 00:52:08.370
And I think that we've given you a lot of great stories about that today.
00:52:08.370 --> 00:52:09.730
So thanks everyone.
00:52:09.730 --> 00:52:10.450
Thanks, John.
00:52:10.450 --> 00:52:11.890
I appreciate you.
00:52:11.890 --> 00:52:17.410
And look forward to future events that we can share together.
00:52:18.210 --> 00:52:19.650
Great to be with you, Steve.