How John Fitzgerald Coached Jennifer Lichter to a Western States Course Record

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John Fitzgerald, great to have you on the Single Track Podcast.
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How are you doing this?
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I guess it's like late July-ish Monday morning.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, doing well.
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Yeah, just uh Sunday I got out for a fun little mountain ramble in the Tobacco Root Mountains.
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So it was kind of one of those like soul-filling uh runs that we we all need at some point.
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So uh yeah, otherwise cup of coffee and getting the Monday started.
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So I first of all, tobacco root has to be one of the coolest names for a mountain range I've ever heard.
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Uh for those in the audience that aren't familiar, sell us on the majesty of the tobacco root mountains.
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Yeah, the tobacco, they're they're not too far from where I live in Helena.
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They're about like a 90-minute drive, so it's a little bit outside of town.
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Um, they've got, I think it's like over 40 peaks, over 10,000 feet.
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So not super high, but um, it's a multi-use network.
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So they do have uh motobikes and some parts of the tobacco routes.
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Um we had high winds this winter, so I kind of strategically went there figuring that the motos would clear some of the trail, um, which they did, which I was very grateful for.
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But yeah, there's a really cool range.
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It kind of reminds me of lots of parts of Colorado, too, where you get up high and it's just like exposed ridges where you can just kind of have fun and run wherever you want.
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Um and uh really popular for backcountry skiing as well.
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So really good link ups for backcountry skiing.
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Um, lots of high alpine lakes with good fishing.
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And yeah, even with there being multiple use access, you really don't see many people out there.
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So it can be just a fun, fun mountain range to explore where you really feel like you're you're out there.
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Very cool.
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Well, I figure where we could start this conversation is with, if you don't mind, a little bit of a game.
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I've heard, I've written down three phrases that I have heard you use uh in various settings, and I figure I could state the phrase and then you could sort of explain sort of the rationale or the meaning behind it.
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Cool.
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I'm I'm I'm game for that.
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First one, consistency is a skill.
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Yeah, so I we I've talked about that before, and I think a lot of people think consistency is just getting out the door day after day.
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But I think well, what what gets you to that spot where you can do that?
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And I think a big part of that is like the way that you think about training.
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Um, so I've brought up this kind of like mental model way of approaching training, and I think thinking about what you do today, how does that affect tomorrow way of thinking?
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And I think that just gets at athletes thinking about training stress and trying to keep the work consistent um and sustainable over time, and ultimately that's gonna be the big driver for endurance performance.
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So, yeah, picking up skills, whether it's like you know, leaving ego at the door and you're gonna go in a group run with some friends and you know, someone you know might be pushing the pace a little bit, or you're gonna be okay, kind of falling back a little bit, you know.
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So ultimately kind of getting better at making good decisions day after day, um, I think is something that takes practice.
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It just doesn't happen naturally for a lot of athletes.
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So um, but yeah, it all ties back to that sustainable training process.
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And I guess based on what you're saying, it's not, I mean, for some people it is a gift and maybe it does come naturally, but you're saying that it is totally trainable.
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That if you don't find yourself at the current moment being a consistent person, this is something that you can work on with your coach.
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100%.
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Yeah, if you find that there's days, you know, where it's like, oh, I need a rest day, or you know, um, you're just feeling like you're kind of in the a little bit of this survival mode, which we can kind of uh athletes can often get into where they just feel like they're just hanging on.
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They're looking forward to that Monday rest day, for example.
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I think going back to that that skill mindset of how to keep consistent and what are those behaviors that we have in the daily training process that can help us stay consistent.
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Um and and it and they're they're pretty easy, right?
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It comes back to like what we talked about, like intensity control.
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Like today we're we're trying to go easy.
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Are we actually doing that?
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Um, and so kind of having that that management and that that discipline to kind of commit to that.
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Um, but yeah, I think the the behavior gets shaped over time.
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And I think it's you know, surrounding yourself with people that hopefully are, you know, uh uh thinking the same way or at least trying to approach the training process that way helps.
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Uh but uh it's something that takes deliberate practice and just, you know, whether it's phrases that you tell yourself, um I'm always reinforcing it with my athlete.
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So it's kind of a little bit over the top.
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So they hear about it most days or see it in the workouts.
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So it's kind of a constant reminder.
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Next one here.
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Willpower is a depletable resource.
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Yeah.
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So I, you know, I look at like just observing athletes and their process and how they approach training is that they they they tap into willpower too much.
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You know, we talked about this a little bit about you know, chasing confidence and maybe pushing through or forcing workouts.
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I think that we're inevitably tapping into willpower or ego.
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And so I look at ego as like a tool in the training process.
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And, you know, if we're using that day after day, it's like, well, how can we keep this up?
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You know, and then what when it comes race day, if we've got to dig deep, you know, on race day, are we really going to have that reserve, you know?
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So I think, you know, thinking about willpower as a tool that we can use in training and and try not to use that on a daily basis because it can be depleting and get to the point where maybe we're dealing with an overuse injury because we are forcing our way through the training process.
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We're entering this kind of survival mode uh of training, which is, you know, not the best place to be, because inevitably we have to take more time down to kind of recruit from that.
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So yeah, willpower and ego as a tool in the training process, I think is a big one.
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How often are you testing maybe what I would call the reserve in training?
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Like, is that something that actually does come about in the training block, or can you sort of expect it to be there on race day as just like a natural outflow of all the work you've put in in the months preceding?
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Yeah.
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Well, again, I think it depends on how you're approaching the training and if it really is sustainable.
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If you're not, you know, if you have this kind of like uh like almost like an 80% mentality with the work, like you're you're you're definitely leaving more to give.
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I think if you're finishing up workouts, and it doesn't even have to be intensity, it could be a long run, just just on the limit.
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Like I think that's where I find that athletes are kind of tapping into that kind of reserve more and more.
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So I'm kind of keeping tabs on that.
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Like, are we finishing up the workouts well?
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And I think if there's more of a theme with that and it's more consistent, um, then I think the athlete's gonna be setting themselves up for more to give on race day when it really matters.
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And it could be even just like problem solving.
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It doesn't even have to be like the physical piece, the like the mental piece for sure.
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Because there's a psychological cost to, you know, pushing hard in training, like frequent, right?
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Of course there's gonna be hard days, but if that's just the general theme, you just gotta wonder like, are we gonna have that that that that reserve on on race day when it really matters?
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And and that's where I see a lot of athletes make mistakes.
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They're just they're firing off too many shots in the training process that they could kind of they could keep a foo a few more bullets in the chamber.
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Yeah, the last time we talked, the phrase you used for this, I think was uh there's a cost to chasing confidence in training.
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Yeah, it's it can be self-sabotaging in the in the way of just, you know, uh developing consistent work over time, you know, which I believe is the the the underpinning of of performance is just that that chronic load that we develop over time.
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And, you know, if we chase confidence, whether it's a training race or in a workout itself, you know, to be like, okay, the work I'm doing, it's it's actually, you know, I am fit.
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See?
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Um, it can throw us off from doing the basic fundamental work consistently.
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Um and that that could that could mean just, you know, having to rewrite training or having to take a bit of a D load, which if we're doing that on and off, it sounds nitpicky, but that does affect your your chronic load and and that buildup of aerobic work over time.
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Um yeah, so it can be very costly to do it.
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And always thinking about opportunity costs when I'm programming or thinking about doing uh, say, a training race ahead of an athlete's goal race.
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It's like, what what could we be doing instead?
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If we weren't doing this, you know, what you know, what what could we do?
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You know, is this worth it?
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Last last phrase for you here.
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Success is rented.
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Success is rented.
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Um, yeah.
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So this actually came from a quote.
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I heard it from a mentor of mine, Joel Filial.
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He's a uh Olympic trathlon coach who um he's been a huge help in my career as a coach.
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And yeah, I think it just goes to like, you know, you you have success, you win one of the biggest races in the world, and it's like the next day you gotta put your pants on, and you know, life goes on.
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And and so it's, you know, I think this mentality of like, well, what what got us here?
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You know, was it you know, likely consistent work and and commitment and dedication to the training process, and that doesn't change after you have success.
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You know, you've got to continue to show up.
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And of course, there's gonna be maybe different uh uh different different approaches that we might take or things that we've got to work on.
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Um, but yeah, the work continues, right?
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Um you gotta keep showing up.
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I'm I'm curious about Joe File because I've I actually just researching for this episode, you mentioned him as a huge inspiration, many of your blogs.
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Uh and also he comes from the triathlon world, obviously just adjacent to Ultra.
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Uh like how else does he does his inspiration show up in how you coach?
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Yeah, so he's been a huge inspiration.
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I first heard about Joel back in like 2009 or 10.
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So when I was studying at the University of Montana, my roommate Elliot Bassett, who was pursuing endurance coaching, and he was a big influencer of mine to kind of pursue coaching as well.
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I thought I was gonna be a physical therapist.
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I was going down that track, and my friend Elliot was like, no, I'm uh this is what I'm gonna do full-time.
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I'm gonna coach endurance athletes.
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And so it was really inspiring and kind of planted that seed.
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And I remember coming across Joel Filliol, who was training with a squad in Victoria, British Columbia.
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And that's where I kind of got this team environment kind of approach with my athletes, because that's a big part of his coaching, is like create that environment, that thriving environment for the athletes.
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And so um, yeah, so we ended up kind of syncing and you know, he's been a mentor and really influential on how I coach athletes.
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And his big approach is that around that sustainability and doing the basics, like the best that you can do.
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And um, yeah, and I'm seeing it pay off with my athletes for sure.
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And just being able to be in that unique unique situation with my athletes here in Montana where I get to see not on a daily basis, but just enough to have that good check-in that helps with that decision making.
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Is it um has it and yeah, maybe it's maybe it does extend beyond Joe to some extent, but like have you found as a coach in the ultra world that it has been helpful to pay attention to other endurance sports?
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100%.
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Like uh, you know, I find I'm I'm looking, you know, for example, like Joe Filio, a triathlon coach, um, looking in the cycling world as well.
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Um and yeah, just because they, I mean, ultrarunning and in the competitive side of ultrarunning is relatively new compared to to sport of cycling, for example.
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So definitely gleaning a lot from uh coaches in the cycling space and um triathlon, I mean motor sports.
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Um, yeah, I I look all over the place.
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It's not just ultrarunning because there's really, I mean, not a lot out there, to be honest.
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Like, I mean, there's relatively new.
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I mean, when Jason Coop hired me on, he had just written his book, Training Essentials for Ultrarunning, back in 2015.
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And so, not to say there wasn't any information prior to that, but it was just still like, you know, getting past is just go out and run more.
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Like, you know, training for an Ultra isn't just a long, longer marathon, like there's other variables.
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So uh, but yeah, definitely gleaning from other sports, cross-country skiing as well.
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Um, so I kind of come from a Nordic skiing background myself, and um, you know, getting a lot of um inspiration from how they train and and things that I can take away from that sport.
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How how different can the sport be before you start to stop?
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Like, for example, could you pull stuff from mountain biking?
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Could you pull stuff from downhill skiing?
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Like, is there stuff there as well?
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Like how big is the orbit that you can pull from?
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I mean, it uh it's really big.
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I mean, obviously, ultrarunning and and running in general is unique in in the sense of the mechanical overload, where a lot of these sports don't have that piece.
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So you have to kind of obviously take that into consideration.
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There's a lot of polls from different sports, but they're lower impact.
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So there's different approaches that they might take that aren't going to work for a runner.
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Uh, but we were talking about kind of like developing the downhill skill, and I think there's something there.
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I've noticed some athletes coming from like ski mountaineering or mountain biking that if you think about the speeds at which they're going downhill on some pretty technical terrain, you just have to wonder like, uh, is there any, like, how are they developing that skill?
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Is there anything that we can take from, you know, mountain bikers that are that are flying downhill on really technical terrain?
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Like, you know, what are they doing in training to prepare for that?
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Is there any takeaways that we can bring into the sport of ultrarunning?
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Um, so yeah, in different ways, I think you can glean a lot from different sports and take little slivers and aspects into ultrarunning.
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Yeah, I was thinking more about that uh point after we talked last time.
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And it it it it kind of in retrospect, it kind of blows my mind the speeds that they're going downhill and how quickly they have to react and read the terrain on a moment-by-moment basis.
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Like I don't know how you simulate that in ultra, but like that just seems like a massive uh like skill to have.
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Yeah, 100%.
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Um, yeah, who is it, the German ultra runner, Hannes Nomberger?
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Yeah.
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I remember him.
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He has a ski background.
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I remember him, uh, there's an interview I I listened to, and he gained a lot of confidence, obviously, both from like the the uphill ability with skiing, but also just being able to be psychologically mentally kind of uh prepared for some of the longer downhills.
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Um just with the type of training that it took in skiing to prepare the legs and the mind for going at that speed downhill.
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So again, it's not like a direct translation, but I think there's little little pieces that you can that you can take from it.
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Um I want to come back to the downhill piece towards the end of the conversation.
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There's a lot to discuss about Western states, uh, at least by my account and by a lot of sort of media folks who are following Western this year, huge success for you, your athletes, the broader CTS team.
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Um maybe using Jen Lichter as an example.
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I think this could be instructive for a lot of people that are listening, regardless of ability level.
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When an athlete like Jen moves up in distance, especially when she's sort of classically hung out in that like mountain 50k realm for such a long period of her career.
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Talk about the shifts that have to happen in their mental models for how to train at sort of these new distances, like getting ready for Black Canyon earlier this year, getting ready for Western states last month.
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Right.
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Yeah, I think the the big shift we talked about this a little bit is around like the specificity of training for like the 50k distance.
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Obviously, the duration's gonna be anywhere between four and a half to like five and a half, six hours in that range.
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And so the specific training for that's gonna look quite different than training for you know 100k block can and getting a little closer just because the durations she finished just under eight hours, right?
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But once you're bumping up to you know 15 plus hours, there's gonna be a big shift in the specificity and what that what that training looks like.
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:17.039
And so I think the shift for Jen specifically was around that uh intensity distribution and um creating some space and room to progress some of that volume that was gonna be so critical for uh her performance, especially at Western States, but also Black Canyon.
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:32.880
Um so just thinking about kind of that that way of approaching training around like sustainability, um, you know, not having it be like the easy days, especially keeping really easy to set up well for the quality training.
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.519
Um whereas I noticed in past training it was a little bit this gravitation towards the middle.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:48.160
Um, just everything was kind of moderate, you know, approach, which you can kind of get away with short term, but I think when you think long-term development, that's not the best approach to have.
00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:54.799
Um, so that was the big shift, the way about thinking about the training, thinking about going back to the basics, right?
00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:04.720
Kind of learning how to train again in a lot of ways, of keeping easy training easy, um, giving space to progress training load, right?
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:09.759
Because when you're up on the limit far out from a race, you got to ask yourself, well, where do we go from here?
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.160
Like, how do you know where how do we progress?
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.519
We're on the limit now.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:18.319
You know, our race is in eight weeks, like uh where's that progression, right?
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:28.640
Um so by shifting that that intensity distribution and and creating space to progress volume, that allowed for this um like new stimulus, right?
00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.400
Because it was just new territory for her progressing that volume.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.960
But where a lot of people shake their heads like, well, how is someone doing these big weeks?
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:46.079
And again, it goes back to like that intensity control and management of the training intensity and making sure that we're keeping more on the table with each session.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:56.400
And on paper, it might look crazy, but at the end of the week or the block, it's actually really not that bad, you know, and we should be able to repeat that work week after week.
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:04.319
Yeah, and I again this is especially for folks like myself who are uh quite uneducated when it comes to training theory.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:21.680
If if I'm just looking at sort of like, I'll call it the size of these runs, like I was following, for example, Abby Hall's build-up to Western this year, and I was just amazed at the number of five, six, seven-hour runs that were compressed into like a two to three month period before Western, I was like, wow, like that's that's amazing.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.880
And I and I wonder what type of toll that takes on the athlete.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:35.920
But again, just to hear what you say here, like if you're keeping into intensity in check and you've been building appropriately, that should be fairly easily processed.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:43.039
Yeah, and again, the context of like, well, what is the athlete doing prior to that specific phase of that that shift to that higher volume?
00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.720
So you don't you don't just show up to five, six, seven hour runs.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.960
So, you know, I talked a bit about Jen.
00:20:49.039 --> 00:21:03.759
Like in in in a lot of ways, she was training for longer distance ultras, 100K north for for many years just because she was able to tolerate that high intensity and slightly high volume at the same time, uh, which you don't see a lot.
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.240
A lot of athletes just can't do that, right?
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.839
Um, so that's a a unique trait, I guess, of Jen.
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.839
But I knew that there was more there.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:17.759
And I think it's like, you know, I'm always thinking about like, how do we set up well for that specific phase?
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:25.680
Like, what do we do today to put the athletes in the best possible position to tolerate that specific work well?
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.240
If we do these weeks extremely well, we're gonna perform well, right?
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.920
We're gonna be in a really good spot to express ourselves on the day.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:41.440
And so, yeah, there's a lot of work that you do ahead of time before that, those bigger blocks of volume, so that you can tolerate it well.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:45.279
Um I'm not sure if this is the right question to ask.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:59.440
So, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you were to rank order the riskiness of like all of the fundamental factors of you know building up for Western, and especially you were to compare intensity versus volume.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:09.839
or duration on a weekly basis, is is intensity sort of a riskier variable in that process than than duration of training or volume of training?
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:10.880
Yeah, 100%.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:11.519
Right.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:22.480
I I I think if you if you really have that intensity control with the with the easy running, um, the impact forces are lower, right?
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.039
If you're in the mountains, you're probably leaning on a bit more hiking to keep that intensity in check, right?
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.480
So the impact forces generally are much lower.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:42.240
When you go to high intensity, then we're asking a much greater muscular demand on the bones, tendons, ligaments need to take that loading, two and a half, three times your body weight as that speed goes up.
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:50.079
And again, if we have this approach of like more is better or pushing at the upper end of range, which there's this tendency to do that.
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.680
Like if we're doing intensity, we've got to be on the upper end of the range, right?
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:55.279
Not on the low end.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:55.920
That's not good.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:57.359
We've got to be upper end.
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:08.559
And so I think if you're finishing up those sessions kind of spent or just like cooked or smoked, whatever these words might you might hear, it's definitely a higher mechanical load, right?
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:13.039
Of course, if you're going down a long sustained descent, there's the mechanical load there.
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:20.480
But I think it's like you know managing the intensity so that we can accumulate volume, right?
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.640
If we don't manage intensity, then it's harder to accumulate that volume.
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.359
Meaning like more to give, more reps to give, we're not on the limit.
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:34.480
Maybe we're thinking about time that intensity for that athlete and that's going to vary athlete to athlete.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:42.000
But making sure that we're getting that dose right of that intensity so that we can still continue to put in the aerobic volume over time.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:53.359
Again, maybe using Jen's block as an example uh what what did peak intensity look like and where did you place it in the block?
00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:12.559
Yeah so obviously coming off uh World Champs where um you know she's recovering from the hamstring injury we had a pretty slow buildup to uh to uh Black Canyon uh Black Canyon definitely had some intensity you know it was you know I think that race was it's not a real mountainous race it was going to go up pretty hard.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:21.200
So I wanted to make sure that Jen was well rounded and could run steady in the beginning but also settle in and have that good aerobic fitness for the back half.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:36.319
The back half of that race is kind of sneaky hard you've got some like little punchy climbs late in the race or we're definitely uh preparing and doing simulations to prepare for that steady monotonous running to a steeper five, 10 minute hill climb.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:43.039
But I I'd say where more of the focus intensity came was actually after Black Canyon ahead of Gorge.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:50.160
And it was a pretty small specific phase for Gorge 50k because we didn't really have a lot of room between Block Canyon and Gorge.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:58.720
But that's where we uh got into uh a lot of Loctate threshold work, tempo running uh some VO2 max work.
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:04.720
Um volume with that intensity was a bit lower just to make room for recovery for those sessions.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:09.200
So typically when intensity comes up volume inevitably will come down a bit.
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:19.519
And so yeah I'd say that that window there, what would that have been like March March was kind of a heavier intensity block for Jen.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:26:37.200
And then like in in sort of like the prime Western states block like in the month of May for example uh what percentage of like any given weekly volume were you devoting to intensity and what types of you know what categories of paces were you trying to hit yeah so after recovery from gorge um we held on to a little bit of intensity after that um that mostly came in the way of a training race here in my hometown of Helena the Don't Fence Man 50K so yeah uh there was inevitably going to be you know some intensity within that 50k um uh but that that really was kind of more of the transition from like higher intensity work if you will and I'd say from a percentage probably in that like I don't know 10 to 20 percent of uh of the volume volume came from intensity and after that it kind of we got more into high end aerobic work uh so a lot of steady state uh climbing and flat level running and and not a lot of lactate threshold or VO2 none really none uh maybe maybe one or two sessions of tempo but uh not not not a lot it was mostly kind of making room for that specific work for for Western states which is which is going to be volume and and uh some steady state work.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:58.480
One of the topics that I wanted to discuss with you was um the the on course training camps that you did as a as a team for Western states and I have a bunch of questions about it but I guess like first just like thinking about the history of these for how long has this sort of been like either a priority for you or CTS?
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:13.039
Like I've always been familiar with a lot of these athletes going to the official Western states training camp at the end of May but um like how old and or recent are these specific focused camps that you're doing at CTS?
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:19.519
Pretty new as far as getting like my elite squad together to train together on the course.
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:24.480
I've been doing training camps actually back in 2011.
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.839
I did my first training camp in Lake Tahoe.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:33.200
And so they've always been a really fun part for me as a coach to like be with the athletes in person.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:40.400
You know uh and these camps started not necessarily as like course recon per se, but just like a good time with athletes.
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.759
And um you know my goal as a coach is to be able to get elite athletes together where they could train together.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:28:11.119
And again it feeds off of this training environment concept of like building culture and um being able to be there in person with the athletes for me as a coach is absolutely huge to be able to get to know them better but ultimately like make better decisions based on the feedback, the body language, their mood it even gets me thinking about like the next steps based on the feedback I'm getting in the moment during the training camp.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.680
Being able to support them crewing as well like out on the course.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:23.039
Hopefully being able to share some miles with them if I you know it's they're easy as my moderate.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.480
So um but uh yeah it's been really cool.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:31.279
It started with the Black Canyon course recon when Jen decided to go to Black Canyon.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.599
The cool thing is that I've had other athletes not even Missoula based athletes come to the camp.
00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:47.839
So Will Murray actually came out uh to the Black Canyon camp which is super cool and uh the Missoula squad opened him up with open arms and they're good friends to to this day and train together quite a bit.
00:28:47.920 --> 00:29:15.759
He's come out to Missoula to train with them um uh a couple times or actually once and um so no it's like they're super valuable and I think just like to have fun in the training process like they're putting in big days and you know training hard and like whenever I can get the group together and just like have some good laughs like off the trail and just create that good energy it's I it's a big part of their training process and I think a big part of their success too is getting to know the course, the ins and outs.
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:20.319
Black Canyon for example uh quite technical footing coming from Missoula.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:29.359
So I knew if like we're gonna do this right like let's get down on the course and get a sense of the how the tr the trail runs and get a sense of pacing on there.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:35.920
So yeah I to be honest I'm surprised there's not more coaches and athletes actually getting together and doing this.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:58.640
It goes back to my inspiration and mentor Joel Fillial like he spends a good part of the year actually with his athletes in training camp for like a month at a time and unique in the sport of travel on that you can be on the pool deck and like read your athletes and be with your athletes on the pool deck or if you're if they're out on the bike, you can maybe go out on a mountain bike or a scooter and be with your athletes on the bike.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.039
Trail running becomes a little bit trickier with that.
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:08.240
You know, unless you're really fit and you can go hang with your elite athletes for five hours in the mountains it's going to be hard to be with them for every session.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:19.039
But being able to crew them along the way is super helpful to support the athlete but then also to get that feedback from um how they're getting along and how they're doing.
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:23.599
So no it's like a highlight for me throughout the year is these training camps.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:33.599
Do you anticipate meet maybe even as early as next year or at certainly in the future do you anticipate the duration of these camps or the frequency of these camps increasing?
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:43.759
Like it's like for for using Black Canaan as an example do you anticipate either multiple trips in the same block or like a longer period of time spent out there?
00:30:44.400 --> 00:31:07.839
Yeah I'm always respectful of like the athletes and like their rhythm and flow in the training process and try not to interrupt that you know there's a reason why you know they live where they live they've got beautiful trails and and uh and and people to surround themselves back at home but I think if we're looking to you know obviously get on the course and get get familiar with the course I think that's huge.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:18.720
You're gonna see a lot more of that and you already see that with like UTMB a lot of athletes go out to UTMB and and do the do the tour around Mont Blanc or you know get out there in advance and train on the course.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:26.319
But I think this like team setting where there's like one coach with a group of athletes like I I would hope to see more of that.
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:34.559
I mean I think it you know the uh coaches coming together with their athletes in person um but yeah I I I think we'll see more of it.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:41.519
I'm definitely invested more in that personally so kind of already plotting and planning some camps even for next year.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:32:02.559
When you're out like for if we go back to you know two months ago middle end of May whenever sort of like your last Western states training camp was if you can walk us through an example of a race day simulation challenge that you're putting these athletes through as a test for for race day.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:03.440
Yeah.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:18.319
So the Western States camp one simulation we did was actually one of the first days we actually we did like a shakeout like team run before the big day but we ended up going from Robinson Flat uh down to the to the river.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:23.440
Um so a pretty big day that was like 47 miles on that day.
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:37.279
And I had the group do some um steady state work on some of the climbs in the canyon not that they were going to be going at that effort but just to get a feel for like that might be a little bit too much right if we don't go there then we don't really know.
00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.680
So it was a kind of a test and like pacing strategy and getting a feel for what that right effort was.
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:49.759
So I intentionally had some steady state climbing both in the canyons and then also after the canyons.
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:57.039
And so Will Murray uh Jeff McGaffro were running together and then Jen was actually solo just behind them.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:02.640
And so I crewed them at Michigan Bluff Forest Hill and then down to the to the river.
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:09.680
And so that was a good way just to get that intuitive feel for pacing both in the canyons and then after Forest Hill.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:16.559
Practicing like surging at all any other sort of like minute details inside race pace?
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:24.000
Fueling for Jen was a big one so we had made sure we had some different things to play with uh at the cruise stops.
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:29.119
We were doing cooling as well although that day it wasn't that warm.
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:39.039
You know it was actually pr actually funny it was actually quite similar to race day which actually added to the confidence for the athletes like oh this was like this is going to be the same temperature as as the training camp.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.799
This is like what we were training in.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:45.359
So that ended up being uh quite a confidence builder there.
00:33:45.519 --> 00:34:11.519
But yeah I'd say the big ones around like cooling strategy um playing with the different uh different nutrition that they might grab at their plan B options potentially um and then practicing some of the the pacing on the downhills like the Robinson flat that long section just getting a feel for that pacing going downhill was a big one um and then also the important one I think is a big crux of Western states is forest hill down of the river.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:23.679
Yeah um a lot of people think it's just smooth sailing down of the river but there's actually quite a bit of little punchy climbs in there right um so I think really getting a sense of pacing that section was another big part to that run.
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:32.480
One other simulation we did I strategically had this on like the last day was um a steady push.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.519
So we did Greengate uh to the finish.
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:40.639
They did run down to the river and then climb back up to Greengate just to get a feel for that climb up.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:46.639
And then I had uh Jen, Will, and Jeff do a push from pointed rocks to the track.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:35:11.679
So I kind of had a feeling there might be you know some bumping of elbows there might be some close uh some racing happening and so I think that was another one that I think could benefit uh mentally too right to be like hey I've I've pushed from 94 miles in you know like and they did this at the end of the camp so they're under a bit of fatigue right um so I think that was a good good good move.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.519
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00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:25.519
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00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:24.239
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This was built to enhance the freedom of running and going further with nothing on your back if that is your jam go check it out at raidresearch.com that's r-a-i-d-e research dot com a few questions first uh on on the fueling piece for Jen obviously on race day now famously at least in the second half you know fueled on bread and Coca-Cola was that experimented with in this camp um not the bread no not the wonder bread the coke definitely was that's something Jen's like used on and off um even in like 50k racing uh but the coke came up I I think this is already out there too Jen getting sick uh the the the Wednesday before the race so I remember sitting down at the coffee shop in the village and the plan B was going to maybe to gravitate towards some like cookies as like something to you know with the cooler temperatures just to break up the the sports uh nutrition and I remember her just looking at me saying like I don't I'm not gonna be able to eat those cookies.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:33.599
Like that's just not going to happen.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:34.320
You know?
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:46.719
So I immediately went to kind of like thinking of like bland food that we could go to and Wonder Bread came up and um they actually had some on course I didn't think they would but they had Wonder Bread on course.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:54.800
We had we ended up going out and getting our own bread yeah but that definitely was not experimented with at all um the bread piece.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.480
And then it was it was a cooler year this year.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.760
I guess it ended up mimicking the conditions during training like you said.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:40:08.239
If the race had been hot, what were the details of the you know heat mitigation plan yeah so with uh the cooling strategy was going to be um you know starting actually kind of they all grabbed an ice bandana at Robinson so that was gonna be the the the start uh possibly before Robinson we we'd maybe do a dunk or two but definitely ice bandana on at Robinson and then uh CTS we've got we started a couple years ago using like a a pool, a kiddie pool yeah um with ice um so the most effective way to cool lower core temperatures like total body submergent right uh in in cold water ice bandana is effective but not nearly as effective as actually submerging your body in cold water um so that definitely was going to be the plan starting at Michigan Bluff was to submerge for you know 10 seconds 15 seconds um so that ended up not happening just with where the temps were um so we ended up just going with yeah ice bandana and sponges and that kind of stuff um and then uh forest till was also going to be another spot with the kitty pool um and uh we do we just didn't even have one out there so as I was saying earlier like it again to me at least it's it appeared to be a massive success for you and your team uh but you know with two to three weeks of reflection is there anything that you are thinking about changing in terms of how you coach towards this race in the future um I mean there's a lot obviously we did quite well um uh as far as reflection to be honest I'm kind of still processing it I think you know it it it uh it seems like it's far removed but definitely still going back or mulling over the training um you know thinking about things that we would do different um for like any particular athlete or just in general like um I mean I think like like for like even with like tapering like do you feel like your your current taper strategy is appropriate?
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.320
Like is there anything you would tinker with there?
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:17.840
Yeah that that's a good point and that's actually the one thing that's come up is um yeah how we approach the taper.
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:40.079
It you know it totally depends on the context of what the athlete's putting in how many consistent weeks they put into training uh really plays into it but as these athletes just year after year you know accumulate more and more work right their training is going to look differently right it's not gonna be like we're just gonna try to hit that same you know peak workload that we did in the last build.
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:50.800
But I think there's something there with more experienced athletes of kind of shifting that specific phase just a little bit closer to the race and kind of building momentum as we get a little bit closer.
00:40:52.559 --> 00:41:01.360
So having not not to say it's like less of a taper, but trying to hold on to some of those feel goods and like keeping that momentum going a little bit closer to the race.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:07.840
So it might might change a little bit of that periodization slightly but we're talking like shifting a couple weeks here and there.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.760
Okay is kind of what I've been looking at.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:32.800
But um yeah I think there's something there about you know if you cut back the volume a bit too much, you know, athletes are typically doing quite a bit of volume it can kind of leave you feeling a little flat sometimes you know so trying to get that right there's a bit of an art with that there's obviously a science with tapering as well but um trying to make sure the the athlete's in a good head space and we're not shutting things down too early.
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:37.440
So yeah definitely looking at the taper where we can make some improvements.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:49.679
In again in in your opinion acknowledging sort of the science and the art of it is there a certain percentage cut where you see a sort of like the line where things become risky on either side of it?
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.920
It's like I'm gonna cut 50% a week or two out.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.840
Like where is that line for you?
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:13.840
I mean again it depends on each individual athlete and like where they're coming from and the type of training they were putting in how many weeks right if an athlete has a much longer denser build of training then we're respecting that and the taper starts a bit sooner at least that's the way I approach it.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:20.320
You know obviously the length of the race depends too if it's a 50k or 100 mile or the the taper might change.
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:34.000
Big thing for me is that we're keeping the rhythm and flow like typical microcycle typical week of training is going to kind of look pretty similar but we're dialing back both the volume and intensity but definitely keeping the intensity there.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:44.719
And that's where I think athletes get wrong is they there's this fear of like showing up tired, you know, because if they do intensity or if they do too much they're gonna show up tired.
00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:52.639
But really with the taper we're gonna see you know anywhere between like two and three percent in you know improvement, right?
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:08.000
So I mean it's not nothing but like you know so I think yeah making sure that we're keeping the rhythm and flow with training we're dialing back volume and intensity but keeping that same type of intensity so if you're doing steady state or hydrobic work that doesn't just completely go away in the taper.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.079
We're still working that in just the volume of intensity comes down.
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:50.960
So yeah getting that right the the the tapering is so individual you know um some athletes respond a bit better to keeping a little bit more volume i in the taper um but that typically is gonna yeah with an athlete that tolerates a pretty high volume in general um they they might just feel better keeping some of that easy aerobic work in there um but yeah we're talking like two three weeks out not like race week race week we're yeah you know yeah we're talking like starting three weeks out from from race day I just have a few more Western questions before I have a bunch of sort of miscellaneous stuff for you.
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:53.280
And again this this one's about Jen.
00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:10.159
If you reflect back on like your analysis of her Western training block and What you thought could be possible, both on like sort of like the most optimistic side of things in the middle of the bell curve, maybe like a B plus type day.
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:24.480
Um where did this course record performance, you know, running 15, 28, I'm gonna blank on the exact number, but like, you know, a minute or two under Courtney's time, like where did this performance land in terms of what you thought was possible for her on race day?
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:38.400
I mean, seriously, like with how well her build went and like how well she tolerated the specific training, there was no doubt that she could win the race.
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:48.000
The question was whether around like break Courtney DeWalter's long-standing course record, like I didn't think that that could maybe happen.
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:49.920
I mean, that that that was a really stout record.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.679
I mean, it has been talked about as one of the greatest performances like of all time, right?
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.920
Like running that fast on that course.
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:59.199
And um, we never really got really deep into splits.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.920
That's just not where Jen performs well as being like wrapped up in time.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:12.239
I think it takes away from what she can give forth in racing, um, taking care of herself and and giving her best effort forth.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:17.599
But yeah, I I for sure, based on her training and her build, like she can win, right?
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:18.719
Like she could win the race.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.000
She's 100% capable.
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:22.480
Like we're not putting any limitations on that.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:33.119
Um obviously the unknown was the fueling for that duration, was like the one yeah, piece that we were that I just we didn't know how it was gonna go, right?
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:34.719
She had never gone that far.
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:39.679
So I knew that if she could take care of herself and fuel well that that she could win the race.
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:47.920
And then maybe this one is uh well, let me just ask you.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:55.360
So as you have seen the sport get more competitive, more depth, coaches like yourself know more.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:00.639
Um each race is you know less predictable, more hotly contested over.
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:06.639
Do you have as a result of all of those changes and things just getting tougher?
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:25.039
Do you have any like new opinions when it comes to uh how many like a performances a given athlete has in them like like for example, seeing Jen win and set a course record at Black Canyon and then turning around and getting another winning course record at Western States?
00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:33.519
Are we gonna see like, like, for example, is that is that like four or five month timetable of two elite next level performances?
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:38.320
Will we see less of those as the environment becomes more competitive?
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.800
Like you're saying, what like consistent uh break breakthrough course record performances year after year?
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:58.639
Or will it be more will it be tougher for an athlete like Jen or Katie or Courtney to put up three or four of those performances a year because of the increasing demands on any one single race to nail it and be right up there?
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:02.400
Yeah, I I think so.
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:05.119
I think they'll be a little bit more spread out, you know.
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.119
Um yeah, I do.
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:20.239
Um just the competition's getting denser and and just the ability to like show up like in in peak form like that, like you can only show up in that form so many times a year, you know.
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:25.519
You you know, you can't you can't peak for five races in a season, you know.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:27.519
Um it's very difficult to do that.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:43.760
So uh but yeah, I think with just the level of competition and yeah, what it takes to prepare mentally and physically for these, like you're not gonna see as many like you're saying consistent uh like course record breakthrough performances.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.159
Kind of like going back to Courtney, was it Western States, Hard Rock, ETMB?
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:48.639
Yeah.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.440
You know, like I I think those are kind of outliers.
00:47:51.519 --> 00:48:05.039
So you could maybe argue that Jen's on that right now with like Black Canyon, Gorge, Western states, um, even going back to to uh broken arrow and speakoat, but um yeah, that you're not gonna see probably as much of that.
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:21.920
In in terms of emphasis and intensity priority, did did you and Jen put the same amount of energy into Black Canyon as you did for Western States, or did you have to sacrifice, for example, a little bit from Black Candy to make this Western states possible?
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:29.360
No, I I actually think we we we put in a really solid build, like what's possible and and definitely, you know, went for it.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:31.599
Like we're gonna, we're we're trying to win this race.
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.800
Like, again, not with the intention of um, you know, taking the golden ticket.
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:41.760
We didn't really know until after Black Candy whether that was going to be uh something that we pursue.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:53.840
Um But yeah, that build just with the time that she had to take down between pre-world championships, where obviously she had the uh Jen had a hamstring injury just before world champs.
00:48:54.079 --> 00:49:00.960
And then just the build back, I knew we needed to build that chronic load back up and we needed that long runway to do so.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:09.280
But I think that build into Black Canyon was actually really crucial for um the Western States build and uh her success at Western State.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:18.000
So um, and I think that gorge uh little intensity block, if you will, was uh came at a good timing as well.
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:30.400
I don't know about you, but in the hour or so before run, especially the early morning training runs, I find it helpful to have something easy to grab that actually keeps me going and not feeling like I'm operating on empty right off the bat lately.
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:34.559
That is why I have been slotting in Kodiak bars to my morning routine.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:39.199
I think everyone has that bar that has earned a permanent spot in their glove box of their car.
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:40.480
This one is mine.
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:45.280
They come with seven grams of protein per serving, and they are made with whole grains and real ingredients.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.400
I am partial to their chocolate chip in s'mores flavors.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:52.079
Find them at Kodiakcakes.com or your local grocery store.
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:54.960
They are the ones with the bear on the box.
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:59.519
Before we close up, just a few sort of like miscellaneous questions for you.
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:07.039
Earlier in the conversation, and even before this, we were sort of talking about emphasis on downhill running.
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:15.679
I've sort of just been amazed at what Ludo did at Hard Rock uh last weekend and sort of his prowess in that category.
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:25.280
The last time we talked, you've told me sort of like for downhill running, the physical adaptations come fast, but the skill aspect of it can take years.
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:38.320
Can can you help me sort of understand the difference in those timelines and like why why Ludo can have such like a long-standing competitive advantage, even if you can get those adaptations and training fairly quickly?
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:44.880
Yeah, well, we touched on like yeah, uh adaptations from the eccentric load is a cute.
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.119
They they come and go quickly, right?
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:59.199
So for example, athletes coming off Western states, recovery, they're getting slowly back into training, they get back out for their first big vert run, they're likely they might feel some DOMs, right?
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:03.360
Because maybe it's been two weeks of very little eccentric overload on the muscles.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:14.639
So, but once you get that initial bout, that repeated bout effect, meaning you go back out and do that same downhill that produced the DOMs, it's not going to be nearly as bad the week after, right?
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:22.880
So just just knowing that timeline, like a week or two weeks of introducing back that eccentric load, you've kind of got it back.
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:23.360
Yeah.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:31.280
Um, and so we were talking a little bit about like, you know, the the skills side of things with downhill running.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.360
Your cardiovascular system doesn't limit you running downhill, right?
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:36.559
For for most people, right?
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.679
It's not gonna be like, oh my God, you know, this is too high of an effort.
00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:47.119
It's gonna be more about like reading the trail, um, practicing, getting a sense of pacing different lengths of descent, right?
00:51:47.199 --> 00:52:05.360
Which I think is something the US runners have a bit of difficulty as they go over to Europe because the the descents can be a little bit, you know, potentially a little bit longer for some athletes that train in different spots, and just getting a sense of how to pace well for a four or five thousand sustained downhill.
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:12.559
Um, but yeah, I think for for athletes that actually put in that deliberate practice of like maybe it's like the technical footing piece.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:18.239
Um, maybe like a bomber fire road descent like comes more natural, naturally for an athlete.
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:27.679
But once you throw a bunch of loose rocks, right, um gaining that confidence on that footing, um, that's something that needs a lot more practice than you think.
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:37.760
Um, and so for an athlete, that might mean being very intentional within a week of training to go seek out their more technical trails close to them twice a week.
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:46.800
And whether that's a workout or whether that's just like an endurance run, they get out, do some laps on that uh technical footing, um, and really building up that confidence.
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:49.519
Like I can move a while on that, you know?
00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:55.039
And that's gonna that that could that could be five minutes or more that you could make up on a descent.
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:09.840
Um and so just hearing Luto talk about like you know how he challenges that in his training, not necessarily for like the eccentric adaptations, just the nature of training specifically for the event, he's getting that natural overload mechanically.
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:18.800
So now for him, likely, and again, I'm just assuming this, but based on his uh based on him uh talking, he he practices a lot, you know.
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:21.280
Um, you know, why don't I test things a little bit?
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:26.559
Why don't I kind of push this descent and see how that might affect my ability to climb after, right?
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:34.800
So then you can start to get much better at that pacing strategy and build confidence that I'm not just gonna blow my quads, like they're gonna hold up well, you know?
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:43.039
And I think that's a big differentiator between athletes that might not are lacking that that that confidence and that skill that is practiced.
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:49.599
And and for each athlete, it's gonna it might take longer for one athlete uh to develop that confidence and skill.
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:57.039
Um, but I'm very confident if if that is a weakness in an area that you know you can improve on, weekly practice.
00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:04.159
Every week, get out on the rocks, get out on the descents, and and over time that skill will will pick up.
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:23.440
And then just familiar to like the like the schemo community, or uh could you see a schemo athlete coming into a sport and having, I guess it depends on the race, but like in these more technical, maybe sky races where or Mount Marathon where like the downhill is so important, like they could it would be like an easy transition over and they could find success.
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:25.280
Uh I mean, yeah.
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:31.519
I mean, you know, you think about what they're doing in training all through the winter, you know, skiing down some really steep stuff, right?
00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:44.159
That's just like you gotta have confidence, you gotta have the psychological, you know, bandwidth to be like go down some of these steep cool yards and like off cliffs and things like this.
00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:51.119
Um and just with the aerobic fitness that they build up with the uphill, like that's a pretty deadly combination, if you will.
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:58.000
And that's why you see some of the best skyrunners and mountain runners at the shorter distances typically come from ski mountaineering backgrounds.
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:04.559
Um so yeah, I mean, a lot of the big uh hundred-mile mountain runners that that we see in the space, right?
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:06.320
Like, you know, Francois Dain, right?
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:09.360
Like, he's out on skis a good portion of the winter.
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:14.239
Um and uh arguably one of the best at the 100-mile distance over technical footing.
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:22.719
Um so yeah, not for everyone, but I think it could be one piece to develop in that skill is like, hey, what's available to me in the wintertime?
00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:29.519
Maybe I could pick up ski mountaineering and that could help sharpen up this downhill skill or build confidence in downhill.
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.880
I'm just sort of like speculating aloud here, and I certainly don't have an answer.
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:51.360
Maybe you do, but I'm just trying to think like what did like what did Ludo do in training that like, for example, Jimmy Elam, who finished, who had a fantastic race, amazing debut at Hard Rock, but finished like a you know, a distant second, a few hours off Ludo.
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:58.400
Like, I know Jimmy was on the course for the six to eight weeks before, you know, race day.
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:03.199
Um like what what what didn't he do that Ludo did?
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:10.960
Or does Ludo just have this like incredibly massive library of just like experience on this terrain and his legs that made the difference?
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:11.840
I don't know.
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:26.239
But like I I hear what you're saying on sort of like it's easy to get those like adaptations, but then like the like the experimentation, the practice of like confidence and reading the train, like I'm just at a loss.
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:26.960
I don't know.
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:35.599
Yeah, I mean, I I don't know Jimmy's like background with hard rock, like I know you said he's been on the course, but I think Ludo's raced it what three or four times.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:36.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:38.639
You know, so I think there's something there.
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:44.159
He's done the uh soft rock almost like every time he's come over to to race.
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:47.280
So he's got quite the experience on that course.
00:56:47.360 --> 00:57:01.199
But then if you look at his experience over the years of different mountain races like UTMB and things like this, you might start to see, and again, I I don't know Jimmy's background with this mountain hunter racing, but um yeah, I I I I don't know.
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:04.480
Uh I'd have to look into that a little bit more, but yeah.
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:09.360
Uh from what I understand, one more because I know we're almost at the top of the hour.
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:19.760
You've you've mentioned that sort of generally speaking, you skip the weighted hiking, you don't do a ton of lab testing, you skip most of the gadgets.
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:25.360
Make the case for simplicity in in coaching our sport right now, especially the very top end, the elites.
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:30.719
Yeah, well, again, I think it's so easy to chase that novelty and like what other people are doing in the space.
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:34.880
Like, you know, you see people doing the weighted pack hiking and things like this.
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:45.360
And I think that ultimately when we chase those, I don't know, it was especially on like the data side, like different gadgets that like there's a lot of noise, you know.
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:52.400
Um, how much of that is taking us away from just doing the fundamental work consistently over time?
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:57.920
And like I mentioned, if you're doing lab testing and if you're doing it right, you've got to go into those fresh.
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:06.320
Like you're not gonna get like in my eyes, I'm getting data and lab tests, or not lab tests, but fields, you know, files coming through every day.
00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.079
And that's testing right there.
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.519
So in my eyes, I don't need to overdo the testing piece.
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:22.159
Um, and then I think just like I think Coop said this in like an interview or somewhere, but it's kind of missing the plot when you think about like, you know, doing some of the weighted hiking and things like this.
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:26.639
And obviously it depends on the context of like an athlete might live in like New York City, right?
00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:30.400
They're they decide they want to train for a mountain race, they don't have that terrain available.
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:34.719
Yeah, you have to think outside the box and be a little bit creative with your approach.
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:35.840
I do take that.
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:49.280
But like if you are, you know, taking a time and effort to build into a race and you have specific train available to you, like everything is available to you out the door, like where you train, where you decide to to train.
00:58:49.440 --> 00:59:04.639
And I don't think we need to chase like, yeah, these these kind of like novel, I don't know, training approaches that again, I do think they're a big distractor from just doing the basic training the best that you can do.
00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:14.559
So like if an athlete wins UTMB and weighted hiking happened to be a part of their training, your argument is that that factor is sort of coincidential.
00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:17.199
It wasn't you don't attribute that to the victory.
00:59:17.280 --> 00:59:18.159
There's other things that they were doing.
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:18.719
Right.
00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:28.880
You know, you gotta dive in a little bit deeper to like what you know, how many weeks of work did they put in, you know, what what kind of terrain were they on, you know, uh yeah, all those other factors.
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:36.000
So it's so easy to point the finger at, you know, the weighted vest as the reason for the success, but I don't think that's the case.
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:50.639
You know, I I think if you're doing specific training well, if you're mimicking the demands of the race, you would argue, well, that's a higher percentage of the work that you're putting in, likely, you know, um, and and how much of that is the driver behind the performance, you know?
00:59:50.960 --> 01:00:00.239
So um, yeah, I I it's just something that I personally as a coach do not choose to go down that path uh of of chasing.
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.880
You know, I'm looking at what can I use repeatedly?
01:00:03.039 --> 01:00:09.519
If it if we're looking at data, it's like what can I use to make good decisions day after day, right?
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:14.719
And not, you know, have something that there's it's hard to find that signal through the noise.
01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:18.719
Um, and it's something that you can't use repeatedly to make decisions.
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:23.119
Um, you know, and where I invest, it's just like with the athlete, right?
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:24.880
You know, being able to observe, right?
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:33.360
And just like getting back to like basic uh fundamental principles, right, of of making good decisions is like spending time with the athlete.
01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:34.960
Like that that's productive.
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:39.039
I'm just thinking about this now, but like open question here.
01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:50.639
I wonder if if an elite athlete took off the weighted vest, would the time spent in the weighted vest, would that have enabled them free of the vest to do an additional 10,000 feet of climbing?
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:55.280
And would that additional 10,000 feet have had higher return than the vest?
01:00:55.679 --> 01:01:09.039
Yeah, well, going back to like doing the basics well, intensity management, you know, maybe if we reduce that that stressor of that added weight on the body by just spending a little bit more time out there doing the thing, right?
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:14.960
Doing the thing, hiking up mountains, descending them out down mountains, probably would be pretty productive.
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:16.159
Or maybe it's the opposite.
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:20.880
Maybe it's actually more time to rest and recover and to adapt to this training stress that you're putting on your body.
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:28.800
But either way, I think it's uh, you know, a lot of people are pointing the finger at like one shift in training that that's making all the difference.
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:38.880
And I think you have to look at the the 30,000-foot view of like, what has this athlete been doing over many years, not just like in a block of training, right?
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:43.199
Because we know performance doesn't just come from the peak week in training.
01:01:44.000 --> 01:02:03.440
As as sports mature and you know, we have like a bigger body of knowledge to work with, experience, et cetera, in your experience or observing like triathlon or road running, do you find that training philosophy tends to converge on like a single source of truth and a whole assortment of coaches are kind of following the same path?
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:11.119
Or do you see what we still see in Ultra where there's like six or seven different prominent philosophies competing?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:22.239
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's there's kind of like the tried and true, if you will, like ways of approaching training that like just haven't gone away, right?
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:25.920
Which is like frequency and volume over time is is quite powerful.
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:31.760
But yeah, in the sport of ultrarrunning, you see quite a bit of jump, you know, different philosophies, different ways of approaching things.
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:49.199
There's almost like, I don't want to say two camps, but in some ways, like, you know, this kind of lower volume, like higher intensity, like, you know, increased power output, um, improved running economy, kind of in a way taking a lot of the marathon kind of concepts and bringing them right into ultrarunning.
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:58.480
And yeah, obviously there's gonna be some races that there might be some crossover to that of obviously of running economy as a big underpinning for success at that race.
01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:12.880
But when we start to throw in different variables like steep, rugged, you know, mountain terrain and quite a bit of meters gain a loss, like, you know, you just gotta wonder like how much of that overpace or that that that that intensity is really gonna make a big difference, right?
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:14.639
Um uh yeah.
01:03:14.800 --> 01:03:21.599
And then there's you know, other people that kind of might fall in the camp of more of like specificity, like what are we actually training for?
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:23.519
You know, like let's get good at that.
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:40.000
Um and uh and kind of where I come from is kind of like, yeah, the specific work, working least specific to most specific, and ultimately trying to create that sustainable process for the athlete where they can layer consistent work week after week, month after month.
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:42.719
And yes, rest is productive, and that's part of that build.
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:49.360
But um, yeah, I think ultimately it's like looking around at different sports like cross-country skiing.
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:58.079
Um, you know, there's a lot of, and again, lower impact sport different than running, but um, you know, low intensity work, right?
01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:02.480
There's a there's a foundation that's being built over many years with that type of work.
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:08.239
And and culture is a big part of that too, with like the Norwegian, Scandinavian, uh, Nordic skiers.
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:14.639
So uh lots of crossover, but there's obviously some differences as you get into the higher impact sport of running.
01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:16.880
Final word before we go.
01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:22.079
Uh, first for listeners, viewers that are interested in working with you.
01:04:22.159 --> 01:04:23.280
Are you taking on athletes?
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.079
How can they find you?
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:28.719
And then is there like a final thought or word you want to leave the audience with?
01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.559
Um, yeah, so I'm currently not taking on any athletes.
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:33.360
I'm pretty full.
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:40.639
I've been full for a couple years now, but happy, you know, please reach out so I can uh Finn, you can leave my information for the listeners.
01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:43.679
And uh we'd be happy to have a chat or connect you with a coach.
01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:45.360
That would be a good fit.
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:49.119
Um and yeah, you can follow me.
01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:53.440
I'm not huge on social media, to be honest, but I'll link that too below.
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:55.039
Maybe some fun things coming up.
01:04:55.119 --> 01:05:20.880
But um, and then as far as like last things to leave listeners with is like, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but just like it's kind of cliche, but like enjoying your training process, like, and you know, you hear it over and over again, but like I always catch athletes in their process, and maybe it's going back to that kind of will-powered approach, possibly, but they're just kind of forcing things a little bit too much.
01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:24.639
And at the end of the day, it's like this should be fun, right?
01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:31.599
Uh, here it's summertime in Montana, I've got athletes out in the mountains, in the high country, and like they're just out having fun.
01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:36.239
Um, and so try to create as much joy and fun in your training process.
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:48.239
And I think you'll find that's a big part of keeping it consistent, you know, and again, that consistency as a skill, maybe that fun factor is uh part of that, part of that skill development of of staying consistent.