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We're back, long run archives number 37, joined by friends, colleagues, Brett Hornig, Jeff Colt.
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Brett, how are you doing today?
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Dude, I'm doing good.
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I'm just writing in my notes right now that it's episode 37 because the last few episodes, I was like, I don't know what number we're on.
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And I I just like to keep track.
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So good to be here.
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37 episodes.
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That's that's a that's getting uh get to be a pretty big number.
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I'm actually tempted to go back and listen to the first just to see what our talk track was.
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Do you remember any of it?
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Uh yeah, I actually do.
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Because it was that.
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No, it's it was the first one.
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The biggest thing that I think we hung up on for like three quarters of the episode was just various what ifs.
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Yes.
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We're like, what if Magda enters the sport four years earlier?
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What if Jim doesn't miss that turn?
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Does he just win Western states?
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Be like, see, trails easy, and then just moves on to something else.
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I remember we had just a bunch of those.
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Dude, the funniest thing, and we probably recycled a lot of it because I was talking with Jeff the other day and I thought I was having like a totally novel conversation.
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And then Jeff just like sent me the transcript of our first ever podcast together, like four years because, like, dude, nothing has changed.
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Yeah, literally, we covered like almost all of the same things.
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Dude, we like went on a run and got coffee together, and then afterwards I was like, you know, how much have I changed in the last four years or whatnot?
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Like, I went back and listened to Finn Had Me On as like the Chasing Gold series after Black Canyon and listened to this episode.
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And I was like, all right, actually, I think I've stayed pretty true to myself.
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And Finn and I have been having the same conversation for four years.
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That's that's what I love about trail running podcasts.
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We get older, but the topics stay the same.
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Okay, with that in mind, we're doing something slightly new this episode.
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There are a couple of reels that we're gonna highlight, and I want to bring the audience into it.
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So, first topic is Charlie Lawrence, who is the current, I believe, 100K American record holder at the Road 100K or track 100K.
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He has been goaded into doing a backyard ultra.
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I'm gonna play the reel here for you guys right now.
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This video is for Charlie Lawrence.
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Recently on a podcast, you made the following statement.
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I think like a backyard ultra.
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Again, this is me like a strike off arrogant, but I think I could go get a world record in that.
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Do I want to?
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Yeah, I think you could go.
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How much do I how uh name the chat?
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How much do I have to write to see you uh give this a crack?
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I probably look at halfway to six figures.
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Okay.
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Sure.
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I challenge you to a 1v1 backyard ultra winner take all.
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I don't need money to show up, but if you do, I bet there's a way we could figure that out.
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This video's for Charlie.
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React in any which way you you desire, Brett.
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Dude, well, Mountain Outpost can put it on and we can crowdfund this prize purse.
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Easy for one.
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Um, maybe even get a couple spons like brand sponsors to pony up some matches.
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Um also Charlie's not he's not breaking the world record in the backyard ultra.
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Like does he even know the rules of a backyard ultra?
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Because I could run a little advocate for you, Brett.
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Yeah.
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I think he I think Charlie Lawrence probably feeds off of that type of doubt.
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And like if you really want him to do it, like keep saying that he couldn't do it.
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Um he can't do it.
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Yeah.
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Charlie's a super impressive.
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You can't do it.
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You can't do it.
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There we go.
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Uh I think he's a super impressive runner.
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I think that's uh not necessarily giving uh um respect to that discipline of like the backyard ultra discipline.
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Um I I agree.
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I think it's uh like surprisingly challenging.
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It's a whole different sport.
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Yeah.
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And I I still think it's one where like the the needle can be moved.
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And what I love about it is it's like a discipline where the whole goal is to move the needle.
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So like if you know if Charlie Lawrence is trying to pick up other, you know, gimme world records, I don't know if that's as easy as a gimme as you might think.
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No, I don't think so either.
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Plus, like, I don't and it it what like what so far from what we've seen in successful backyard ultra runners, like what are the tools that they have that make them successful at it?
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And looking at a lot of the like one of them is not top-end speed.
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No, I think it's trauma, dude.
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I think it's childhood trauma.
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I think that's like the major tool you need.
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Dude, my trauma's bigger than your trauma.
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Yeah.
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Trauma, that'll take you to 500 plus.
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Um, Mark Dowdle, he's the guy who's calling him out.
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I love that video.
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Yeah.
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I love like, well, I just heard this shit and like I'm just gonna go ahead and call him out right now.
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Like he's he's pretty decorated, right?
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Like he he's kind of the uh holding court, you know, in in the US in a way right now.
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He has a track record of backyard ultras.
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I believe he's his current personal best is 283 yards, which would take him, I think, well into day four or five.
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So he's been deep into these things, and then he just won this race called the Arrowhead 135 out in Minnesota, where you carry a sled with all your gear behind you.
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Nice.
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So he's pretty sp I think he's specialized.
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So I it would the maybe the the fight card here would be oh, go ahead.
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Sorry, are you saying that you can specialize in uh in this distance?
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Well, that's that's the open question.
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Well, that was my question.
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It was like the main question.
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We already we talked a little bit about specialization in 200s.
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Can you be a specialist in the 200?
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And and I think the answer there was like, not really.
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But maybe that's like short compared to winning a backyard ultra.
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Yeah.
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I think the fight card plays that up.
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It's like the person who has invested their career in that particular discipline versus the just like the standout athlete who is super fast and just assumes that he can come in, blow the door down, and dominate the scene.
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That's the fight card right there.
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Yeah, I think for the last two long run episodes we did together, I bit my tongue around this whole 200-mile scene because, like, quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200.
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So I don't want to like speak my mouth and say something that will end up resulting in me getting challenged to run a 200 and then having to run a 200.
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But Charlie Lawrence did it here, you know.
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He he kind of, you know, be careful what you wish for.
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If you say you're gonna break the world record and the backyard ultra and the big dog on campus calls you out on it, like, let's let's see it.
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I I want to make this happen.
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I want to see this happen.
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I think this is stepping stepping stones on the road to LA Olympics 2028 backyard ultra being.
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Oh, yeah, with the opening ceremony.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I agree.
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I think I would I would watch that.
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That would probably, I mean the yeah, the drama, the table's already been set.
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I mean, it's there, but yeah.
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I mean, I just don't see where like having a fast 100K gives you evidence that you can like stay awake for five days.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I I do not know a ton about Charlie Lawrence beyond like his posts get paid to show up in my feed, which I typically don't like paid things showing up in my feed.
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And he's got this, like, those Adidas shoes were so squishy.
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Um, and like I think of Charlie Lawrence and I just think of those like super Adidas shoes from the 100K just like squishy.
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I slight side tangent.
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Whether or not that I cannot believe how, from my point of view, how much Adidas dropped the ball on the marketing for that hundred K.
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Let's talk about that.
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No, didn't we say that was going on during the Olympics or something?
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When was it going on again?
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It UTMB week, right?
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Or yeah, it was like, yeah.
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It was completely lost in, I think it might have been UTM B week because like the people who would care about it, I think I was trying to make the argument would have been the ultra-distance community.
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Yeah.
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And like they had this amazing teaser reel that like basically said we handpicked like eight of the best hundredk runners in the world that all happened to run for Adidas, and we're gonna break the world record.
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Location, we're not telling you.
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Race start, we're not telling you.
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Like, um, and then and then it happened, and then they were like, We did it.
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And I was like, What why couldn't I watch this?
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And then, like, as I learned some of the details about like where it was and how they did, I was like, this is amazing.
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Why didn't I get to watch this on TV?
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Come on, guys.
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Like, they built a whole shoe.
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They had like F1, like Valteri Bottas got to like give input on the shoe and like talk to it.
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I'm like, freaking Mercedes and stuff, like what nothing?
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I was like, geez, this was an ultra marathon.
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Tom Evans hiking protocol got better PR post-UTMB than this Adidas 100K world record, like says that it was a miss on the Adidas you know side.
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Yeah, like more people know about Tom's hiking and Ruth's hiking than the Adidas 100K world record.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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They must have uh the the Adidas marketing team must have consulted the Boulder Colorado endurance community and told them you can't spray.
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You can't spray about this.
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You know, just quietly do the work and talk about it after the fact.
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They didn't even do that much talking after the fact.
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Like dude, it would that is a great I for I totally forgot about that, Brett.
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That was wild.
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I know.
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And I still don't have a pair of those shoes.
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I was I was gonna do the buffalo run in them, you know.
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When when uh when I was like nine or ten years old, my brother and sister, I think both qualified for Hershey Nationals, uh, or maybe Willie did that year.
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And we went down, Hershey has like a huge theme park, really cool theme park, right?
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But you have to be 48 inches tall to ride like the really fun rides, like the Great Bear and and whatnot.
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And at that point I was probably like 45 inches tall.
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So my mom bought me a pair of these black and white platforms that were like truly like three inches, you know, platform shoes.
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Um, and I just had like some like long, like kind of like baggy jeans on that were you know in vogue at that era.
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And dude, that's in again.
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2000, 2001.
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And uh like got to ride on all the rides because I was just over 48 inches, and those shoes, the Adidas shoes, remind me of my Hershey Park platforms.
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Meanwhile, you're getting like whipped around by the roller coaster, your feet are dangling.
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You're just like both ACLs are blown because you got five pounds attached to each ankle.
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I was made of rubber at that point in life.
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Before we go to this next topic, I can't let this go unaddressed.
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Jeff, you hinted earlier that you didn't totally speak your piece about 200 milers.
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Oh yeah, I think they're for some people, and that's great.
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Okay.
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That that's that's less that's that's less candy.
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What I was implying was that I didn't uh I didn't want to make any like grandiose statements because quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200 right now.
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And um like I I look around at the the scene and like there might be a course eventually that I'm that I'm hyped on and the time in life is right.
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But yeah, I I said that because I like I do think that if you are gonna run your mouth in that way and someone calls you out on it, it's kind of like, all right, well, you set yourself up for that.
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Like, go get it.
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Let's see this 500-mile backyard ultra dog.
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It's gonna be sick.
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Yeah, you don't want someone making an Instagram reel challenging you to Coca-Dona.
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Has there ever been the trail running equivalent of like the Alexander Hamilton Aaron Bird duel?
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Has someone's honor ever been called into question?
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Like a full head-to-head, like like name the place, name the time.
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Yeah.
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Good.
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We might get into that.
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Yeah.
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So, anyways, here, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say the question and I'm gonna play the real, but we basically have it is we have we have to address this debate question, which is are elite trailrunners boring?
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And I'm gonna play the context here.
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Elites are boring.
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I'm not inspired by elites in the slightest bit.
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And I think it's because there's this like fragile mentality of elites where they pour so much into their craft and trade that they can only accept celebration for the time and accomplishment that they received.
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And anything less than that is kind of an insult.
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And let me explain that.
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Elites aren't great storytellers.
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Like they're they're I believe they're interesting, but for whatever reason, I don't know if it's insecurity or they're they're just so compartmentalized, they don't share interesting stories anymore.
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Like they they only want to get on podcasts and talk about their training and how they're you know able to accomplish such you know elite, godly results.
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But yet you have somebody like, let's say, Max Jolliffe, right, who has incredibly uh immense talent and and does things that are wildly impressive, you know, to the rest of us amateurs as well.
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But he's not talent-wise there with the tip of the spear in the elites, but he resonates because he tells stories, he lets people in.
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He almost gets judged, right, by these elites or gatekeepers and say he's not worthy of this attention.
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Why is he getting more attention than me?
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He's not capable of running as fast as me.
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And it's like, yeah, you're telling on yourself.
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Like it's it's not about how fast you're running, it's about how relatable you are and how I have a question.
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Do elite do elites talk shit about Max Jolliff being like he doesn't deserve this much attention?
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Has anyone I've never heard anyone say that.
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I mean, I'm not elite.
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I've taught I have I'm friends with some runners that are pre-elite, and he's never come up in their com in conversations.
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I have never heard yeah, I have never heard Max Jolliffe's value to the sport come under fire from elites.
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That's the first time I'm hearing that.
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Yeah, Max also, I mean, yeah, he's super fast, right?
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Just ran like a 235, 234 marathon.
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Like um He's a faster media guy than me.
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I my follow-up question was are elites asking for more credit or attention than they get?
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Like, I I I don't know who was speaking there or where that's necessarily coming from.
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The gist that I was pulling from it was like I think it's okay for uh elites, say a Jim Walmsley, to show some frustration that half of the ultrarunning community thinks David Goggins might be the best ultrarunner ever.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:22.080
And like the just like the the imbalance there of like there's there's you know, a group of influencers, storytellers, they've written books, they've like talking about their life's journey through running.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:31.360
And there is a pretty significant misconception that like David Goggins is the best ultra runner ever.
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.080
Um, right.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:39.200
And like if if that's the point he's getting at, like, I don't think that's necessarily elite to asking for more credit or attention.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:49.519
Um I think that's just like, hey, like no stress or you know, uh like saying anything bad on on David Goggins' name.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.240
The guy is certainly incredibly influential, right?
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.440
But like he he's not the fastest ultrarunner, right?
00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:01.039
Like um so that that's kind of what I was parsing out in in that little bit there.
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:03.519
But like, yeah, Max Joloff's a great storyteller.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:09.119
I also like anytime there's anything on Courtney or Killian, like I watch it pretty much immediately.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.519
I think Killian's an amazing storyteller.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:17.680
Um, he he often gets earmarked as like, oh, but he's the exception.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:18.559
Right?
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.880
Like, I think Killian, you know, can run all distances.
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.759
And then whenever people are like, well, who's like the biggest ultra trail runner influencer?
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:33.599
Like, and it comes back to Killian, people are like, well, actually, yeah, he is like super influential and he does a good job with all these things.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:35.359
So maybe he is an exception there.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.039
What do you guys think about that?
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:43.200
Yeah, I guess my like what does it even mean to be boring?
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:59.920
I mean, yeah, Finn, the real that you shared with us, said like talking about training and like putting all your chips, you know, out there, like laying them all out there for one particular race, or your career, your life as a professional trail runner is boring.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:02.079
I don't think that's boring.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:15.759
Like I've always loved the like following the very tippy top of all sports to see what sacrifices these athletes make in order to become like I think that's beautiful.
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.880
Like I love like for like it's also scary though.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:20.640
Like that's my reality check a lot.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:25.599
Like I go back to some of like things Jack Kenzel has said and be like, Am I grounded?
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:35.680
Am I still like like, you know, as as someone who's like fully given themselves to like this pursuit of excellence and being the very best, like all power to him.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.319
Like that's just not the path I'm trying to choose.
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:52.640
Um and like so when I when I hear the examples of I mean, look at Jack Kenzel's race logs, like or training logs, they were always public in his in his Instagram, but Killians are published each year as well.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:00.880
And I'm like, yeah, there are 22 hours a week where I'm choosing to do other things other than train for ultrarunning compared to these guys.
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.359
Yeah, and like I don't know.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.079
I just I don't think that's I just don't think that's boring.
00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.319
The the counterpart, like, are you choosing to tell your story?
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:20.880
And like I actively choose not to like tell my life story through videos or long form or content or short form content, really.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:29.839
Like there's certain things that I'm pretty happy to just keep keep within my own home and within my own family and like friend groups and stuff.
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.519
And I don't think that that makes someone necessarily like boring or is a problem with elites.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:44.559
There's some elites who share their stories and there's some regular runners who share their stories and like more power to folks for making that decision one way or another.
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:50.480
I'm not gonna like poo-poo someone for not opening up more and talking about their trauma.
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.319
Um Yeah.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.359
No, I agree.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.640
That's that's a decision.
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.480
And if you choose to make that, that's great.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:01.440
But like whoever that guy talking was, I'm choosing not to let him in, and I'm fine with that.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:16.000
I think another thing too is like the um like if if we're talking about athletes that have sponsors, you know, like they're running professionally, I feel like it should be a little bit too on the brands to like figure out how to properly position this athlete.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:28.000
Like, if they can like if that if like you should like on should know who Jeff Colt is, and they're like, oh, we have this idea, and we're like, that's a perfect Jeff thing.
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.240
We should work with Jeff on that.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:43.119
Not like we have this, you know, we have this documentary that we're gonna make, and it's gonna be Jeff talking about something that you don't want to talk about for 45 minutes, and then we're gonna put this whole training montage over.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:54.000
It's like I think brands could also do a little bit better job at positioning their athletes uh in a way that uses them for the correct style of content.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.920
Well, I mean, that also might be the correct style of content for athletes, right?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.559
And like you've got athletes, you've got influencers.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.119
Brands are out there storyboarding and trying to find, like, oh, did you hear about so-and-so?
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:06.480
This would be an amazing story.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.799
I hear they're a huge fan of on.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.640
Like, we should see if we can work in a story with them.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:14.640
Excuse me.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:24.000
Um I feel like a lot of the content pieces that you see come out around professional athletes are like, I think of Tyler Andrews, you know, uh, and his like summit attempts.
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.720
It's like, yeah, that's a Herculean feat.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:32.079
Makes sense for La Sportiva to try to put money into documenting him summoning Everest.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.000
That's like super cool.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:49.680
Is that a you know, think piece on Tyler Andrews, the up and comer who's uh never quite been in the spotlight in the way that he should be, and you know, ran D three instead of D one and he's always like right there with the best.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:50.720
But I don't know.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:54.079
It's like that's Tyler Andrews trying to run a fucking Everest.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:55.359
Excuse my language.
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:11.680
Um I think the uh Like as someone who's uh works with a brand, like our athletes, we're showcasing their accomplishments, we're showcasing um when they ski really, really well.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:22.559
Stories about people with messed up feet who find success through our product, we're showcasing their story of like, this is how I got messed up feet, and this is why this product has helped me.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:24.319
And like, this is my story.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:28.400
And those stories have way more substance to them because they're meant to be more relatable.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:29.200
I don't know.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.440
Our athletes always meant to be relatable.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:39.440
Like, I think the the this conversation from the get-go is like, you know, he resonates more with the 99% of the runners instead of the 1% of the elite.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.519
Like, that's fine.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.759
That's the aspirational group that like it's kind of hard to relate to that.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.200
Uh what's relatable is like getting up every day and going and doing the damn thing.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:23:00.160
But I can't relate to running 64 and the half marathon, and I have to, you know, line up and raise that guy at some point.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.640
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00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:36.319
Good news.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.559
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00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.160
There's a lot of great stuff there.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:46.559
Personally, I am going to be placing an order for their AFO five-inch middle shorts and their run all-day tease.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.240
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00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:59.039
Um, yeah, I'll be racing all summer in a lot of their product, their half-tights, those shirts, they're versatile, and they're great even beyond the trails.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:01.759
So go check it out, johng.com.
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:04.799
That's J-A-N-J-I.com.
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:05.519
All right.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.519
I've got I've got two points to make.
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.480
I'll make them consecutively and then maybe get your your uh your takes on them.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:14.640
I pr I like the debate question.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.440
I think Robin, an interesting conversation right now because of it.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:26.319
My first thought is I do think it's fair to say that there has been at least somewhat of a tension between elites and influencers over the years in our sport.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:31.119
The example that I go to is way back in 2006, 7, 8.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:37.839
If you go to all of the outside mag archives, you'll see a very public feud between Scott Jurik and Dean Carnassus.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:49.200
And basically, Scott Jurik goes on the record attacking Dean and being frustrated that his profession in the sport is better compensated than his, than, than Scott's.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.720
Like Scott is out there winning Western states six times in a row.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.720
He is at the peak of his powers, he's beating everyone that matters in the sport.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.440
And yet, you know, Dean is playing in that era the influencer role and has an embarrassment of riches, relatively speaking.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:12.319
And I do think that that has played itself out in other cases between 07 and now.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.480
So I do think it's fair to acknowledge that.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.599
Actually, I'll leave it there.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:16.640
What do you guys think about that?
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:23.039
I mean, it's crazy to think about that before like the Instagram self-promotion kind of like era.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:23.759
Yeah.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.160
Yeah.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.079
That was like in the form of books.
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Which like, and like when I was in high school.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:31.119
Cave drawings.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:31.519
Yeah.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.400
Like the hieroglyphics, I I read about Dean Carnasis when I was in high school.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:38.319
I didn't read about Scott.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.880
And as far as I was concerned, Dean was the only person humanly capable of running 100 miles plus.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.680
Everyone else would die because he was doing relay races by himself.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:26:00.720
So like, I I could see where Scott's frustrations are coming from because Yeah, like people like me are like, oh, it's it's Dean and nobody else.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:08.880
Um I'm I'm curious though, if we were talking it back in a time when one was making a livable wage and one was not.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:15.200
Whereas today there's more people on both sides of the ball that are making livable wages.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:28.640
I mean, there's still lots of people that aren't, but there's at least people running for you know competitive results and influencers that are both getting paid.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:43.759
The other point that I was gonna make is I actually think that if we took two columns in one column was pros, one was influencers, I think in a lot of cases I'm actually taking the pro as more entertaining and interesting than the influencer.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:55.119
Like if we're taking the the two like the two categories, like the best of the best, like I personally think that if we had a competition, the most interesting, entertaining athlete in our sport is a pro, and it's David Roche.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:01.440
He's he's the most entertaining, the most polarizing, and he's elite.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.720
And he so he's a pro.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.160
Like he's he goes, you put him for sure, I put him for sure in the pro category.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:06.720
Definitely.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.279
I think he would put himself in the pro category.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.079
Right?
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:11.039
He better.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.720
Actually, he's pretty humble.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:13.920
You never know.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.359
So I think he I think he takes I think he takes the cake.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:23.119
And then I think people like Jim Walmsley are really interesting, Rachel Entrickin, Molly Seidel, Scott Jurik.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:27.359
Every time we have Scott on the pod, he is the same person in 25 that he was in 07.
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.200
Like he's willing to talk about anything.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.519
So maybe, maybe to me, the answer here is like I think there's a bunch of elites that are interesting.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.559
Maybe, maybe this commentator is just saying like they're not interesting at scale.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.319
And if you took it in those terms, but I I don't know.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.720
Like I interview these people, I I'm at least I'm interested.
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.799
I'm I'm maybe not asking the best questions, but I'm I've I'm interested in their stories from what they're talking about.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.599
I think that's what it is.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.039
You are asking the best questions.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:59.440
You bring the interesting out of maybe what people believe to be non-interesting people in the first place.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.680
And that is the beauty of the single track podcast.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.480
I didn't I promise I did not mean to cue that up.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:08.960
Thank you, Brett.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:09.440
Thank you so much.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.119
Shouts to the single track pod.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.319
Thanks so much.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:14.319
What a good plug right there.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:15.519
Like and subscribe.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.359
Um, I think I think you brought up a good point.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:23.359
One of the reasons, like I yeah, I seek out Jim is he's like he is reserved, right?
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.319
He's not putting everything out there for the world to see.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:37.519
And like I think the times we do get uh little snippets or insights into his world, into how he's thinking about things, it's really enlightening.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:45.359
Um, you know, the three of us getting to sit down with Jim before Western States this last year and like hear about that was an amazing conversation.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:46.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:47.519
Like I I'm with you.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.720
I think they um I think that a lot of elites are really interesting.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:05.599
I also will go ahead and say, like, I'm very grateful that it is not in my contract to do a bunch of social media stuff and to like do a bunch of reels and storytelling because like I don't have time for it.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:12.880
Um so like if that's something we're expecting of elites, that's like you know, yeah, I don't know.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:18.720
It's it's my goal is to focus on running and try to do it really well.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:36.799
Um I like getting to you know riff with you guys from time to time, but uh like there are different contracts that focus more on posts and like how you're storytelling around the new drop of the cloud monster hyper light spray.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:39.039
And like that's not being asked of me.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:39.680
Yeah.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:41.920
Oh, I just thought that was it.
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.200
Yeah, should we talk for the next hour about light spray?
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.720
No, I did get it.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:47.680
It looks cool.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:53.039
Brett, any final thoughts from you here before we talk Snowdoni and JFK?
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.839
I mean, at the end of the day, I mean it's just all an opinion.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:01.920
Like whether I think it's interesting, whether someone else thinks it's not.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.240
Um I that we've said this before.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:12.079
I still am in the camp of I don't think there's an oversaturation of trail content out there on the internet.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.359
I think there's plenty there could be more.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.319
There could be more content, and I would still consume it all.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.079
So like I want the the interesting people to make stuff, I want the boring people to make stuff, and I will decide whether I think it's interesting or not.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:38.799
But I don't think it's a one or the other, like black or white, of like elite runners are boring, non-elite runners are not boring.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.680
I do think brands give influencers some pretty unreal opportunities.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:48.400
And like, you know, there were a bunch of influencers invited to the Olympics.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:57.839
Like you didn't see uh, I'm thinking about like the Paris games, like you didn't see a bunch of trailrunners and stuff going to the Paris Games with their brands.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:07.759
Uh and it's just like like there's there's certain areas where things can be better communicated and put out there by by influencers.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.839
And if that means that an elite athlete's gonna focus on their race, that's cool.
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:17.359
But my final question on that do we think Shackleton was an elite?
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.400
Because like Shackleton's the best story ever.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.359
Yeah.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.680
So is he an influencer or an elite?
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.759
Here's what I here's what I think.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:39.839
I think life was so brutal in industrial England in the late 1800s that they were better off going on going to Antarctica and possibly suffering big time than hanging back home.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:40.559
Wow.
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:42.880
So actually they actually they copped out.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.559
They ran away.
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:46.240
It would have been they ran away.
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.559
They turned their back on the world when it got hard.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.000
Harder staying at home.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.279
No one talks about that.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:52.480
Yeah, you're right.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:54.960
Should should write a book about that.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:59.200
Uh okay.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:06.400
We talked about this a little bit with Alyssa Clark on this week's single track news, but apparently this news comes in pairs.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:22.880
It is registration/slash course change controversy coming from two totally different races, Ultra Trail Snowdonia, which is owned by UTMB and Iron Man over in Wales, and the JFK 50, say it ain't so, independent race in Boonesboro, Maryland.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:29.200
Jeff, maybe pointing to you, because you actually have a stake in this, you are registered for the Snow Diddy 100K.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:34.640
Uh, do you want to summarize, resummarize the issue at hand here, and I can talk about JFK?
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.559
Yeah.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.480
I'll give the high level and then like the personal level.
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.920
The high level is uh Snowdonia sells out early.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.599
It sold out in like October or so.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.720
Um the 100K is the marquee distance at that race.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:55.039
That 100K um has like something like 18 or 19,000 feet of climbing in it.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:59.039
Uh, it's like meant to be pretty brutal and grueling.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:11.200
It's been on my radar since like living in the White Mountains and people kind of sharing like, yeah, this Snowdia region like is reminiscent of New Hampshire's White Mountains, just like without trees.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:20.000
Um and so my friend Peter Howe wanted to go over, I think, in like 2017, and I like dog eared it as like Snowdonia would be really cool.
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:43.119
Um I heard some rumors that like maybe the race might not happen, like it was unclear what was going on, like hearing just some like, you know, insider talk, and then uh they ended up releasing the course, and the course was changed dramatically from the previous year's course and what was published at time of registration.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:48.400
Uh, it now has 2,000 meters less elevation, almost all in the back 40 kilometers.
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.119
So the first 60K is still quite mountainous.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:56.079
The final 40K is like pretty flat and fast.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:11.280
Um and yeah, uh, I guess to add insult to injury, right before the courses were published, they actually opened more spots in terms of entries for 100k and they sold more bibs and then released it.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:16.480
So, like anyone who didn't get in in October was like, oh my gosh, I might now have the opportunity to get in.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.519
Gets in, sees that it's actually a different course.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:27.199
Um personally, like I was trying to do mountainous races this year.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:32.960
So I've got Chianti 74K, that's like 10,000 feet of climbing or so next week.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:37.760
Um, then it would be Snowdia, then San Juan Solstice, and then High Lonesome.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:49.840
Um, and part of that plan was each one is I think the final effort ends up being strength building, then more like muscle breakdown, muscle damage.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:54.880
Um, if I was doing a fast 50K or a fast 100K in there, I think it would be a little different.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:11.599
This change to Snowdonia's back half now kind of puts me in this like, hmm, I'm not sure about recovery for that four weeks later for San Juan Solstice and doing another super mountainous, uh, mountainous run.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.159
Um, as of right now, like all my travels booked, my Airbnb's booked.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:17.679
I'm going with my college roommate.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:24.079
We're gonna see a um, you know, we're gonna see a football match the weekend before.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:26.960
Like we're we've been really excited about this trip.
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:32.880
Tom Evans has also signed up for that 100k, and there is no person I want to race more in this world than Tom Evans.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.719
So, like that's your dream matchup.
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.840
That's my dream matchup.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.480
I wanted it hard rock, and I didn't get into hard rock, but like I want to race Tom.
00:35:40.719 --> 00:36:05.920
Like, um so whether it's a little flatter or a little steeper, like I'm gonna try to change my training and plans accordingly, but I do think it's likely like it sounds like it's not as scenic or beautiful or extreme of a race, and um I likely will have to make a decision more of an audible around San Juan Solstice based on recovery from uh Snowdonia.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.880
But yeah, definitely a bummer.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:20.639
Like the this is all coming, like I I probably have eight thousand, seven thousand dollars or so like into all of this travel and stuff.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.440
But like I have a sponsor that's covering that, and that's I'm super freaking fortunate for that.
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:38.159
Like if you know, like I think back to like 2019 going to CCC and paying my own way there and stuff, like if that had happened at that race and like actually we're not gonna do this course, I would have been ripshit.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:39.199
Yeah.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.360
I'm still I'm still you know puckered.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.559
Finn, can you give us a breakdown for JFK?
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.239
Should I do you want me to give you the UTMB perspective on synodony first?
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:54.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.440
Okay.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:57.039
And then we'll talk JFK.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.519
Okay.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:08.000
So I had a phone call with Florian at UTMB earlier today because I do think the more we can just like incorporate both sides into it just so that we have all the facts, the better.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.400
And basically the backdrop here is this event used to be owned by a local company called Apex Running.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.480
Four years ago, UTMB acquired it.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.639
They've run it now for four years.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.840
Again, this is all Florian's perspective.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:29.519
Historically, both when it was under UTMB jurisdiction and Apex Running, all of the permits operated under oral commitments.
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.639
It wasn't written like you would see here in the US.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:40.480
And so they've just sort of like taken the local land trusts and private landowners at their words going into each year.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:43.679
They open up registration back in July.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.679
In October, they have a meeting with all the local stakeholders.
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:59.280
And the local stakeholders basically tell them look, this year you're going to need to reduce fields in both the 100 mile and 100K from 900 to 1,000, and each of those down to 300 each.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.599
So about 600 runners across those two distances.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.679
And they're like, okay, so they do that.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:11.039
And because of that, you see a huge wait list form, a huge buildup of people that want to run but can't get in because it's just a lower field this year.
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:18.719
All of a sudden, a week or two ago, again, according to UTMB, they have another meeting with the local leaders, land trusts, et cetera.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:21.360
And they basically tell them, we told you 600 earlier.
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:22.800
It's actually going to be 300.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.719
So use that number how you will.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:34.079
And what UTMB decided to do was maintain the 300-person field for the 100 mile and then make changes to the 100K.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.199
So that course changed, the 100 mile stayed the same.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.000
And because they changed the course, it opened up more permitting opportunity.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:49.519
And all the people that were stacked on that wait list from when registration opened in July, they were allowed to come in.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.599
And basically U Tim B saw that as an opportunity.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:57.039
I talked with Florian about this and I was like, look, I'm a fellow race director.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:08.159
Do you see issue in like fundamentally changing a course and then not offering runners who signed up based on something that was advertised differently the chance to refund or defer whatever?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.280
And he basically said to me, like, we don't see it that way.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:14.719
All of these trail races, it's like inherent to the nature of trail running.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.760
It's subject to changes.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:16.960
That's just the reality.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.920
And we promise to provide a great experience based on the revised course.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:29.280
So they, I don't think that they agree that you know there should be an opportunity to like, you know, refund these runners.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.280
Like you just have to kind of take it.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:42.320
It it does still seem a little shady, though, that they're like knowing the course is going to change, but then like clear the wait list and then announce it to everyone.
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:51.199
Like you'd think it would have been like an email that goes out to all the waitlisted people being like, you're about to get off the wait list, the course is going to change.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.920
Do you want to defer to a future year, take your refund, blah, blah, blah.
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.039
I agree.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:04.400
But I guess that then comes down to just like ethics of a business and how they decide to run.
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.800
Because I imagine the ethics of business.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:07.920
The ethics of business.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.360
That's what this podcast is all about.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.719
Finn, I know you love that stuff.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.480
Business ethics.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:18.559
Um, I I think just saying that before opening up those spots would have been the right move.
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:20.079
Um, personally.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.719
I think transparency, like clear is always kind.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.599
And it's like, hey, we're opening up more spots.
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:27.039
This is the reason why.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:31.360
If you want to be off the wait list and register, you can.
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:31.840
Yeah.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:41.440
Um and I bet even if you gave that option, like say a refund, like if you're already entered into the race and it's like, we're changing this is a big massive course change.
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:43.440
We understand it might not be what you registered for.
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.159
You can, you know, we can refund you.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:50.400
Clearly, we'll not give you your money back, but we'll give you like UTMB dollars.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:50.880
Yeah.
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:51.599
Um, you know.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:57.039
Yeah, UTMB credit, or even the option to bump down to the 50K, which is still super rowdy.
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:57.360
Yeah.
00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:58.639
I bet they still sell it out.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.960
I bet they still sell it out just with different people.
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:04.719
Yeah.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:18.559
Um, and and then they don't look nearly as bad because yeah, it it does definitely feel a bit like it feels a little bit icky the way that this all played out for sure.
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:25.119
Yeah, so I was, I was honestly, I'll be, I was shooketh that there's no plan for refunds.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:45.199
Um, I know in in my position as a race director, if if the rug was pulled out under us for a section of the Twisted Fork course or the Buffalo Run course, whatever, and it radically altered things and took away, for example, 33% of the vert on the 68k course, the first thing I would do is I would send an email to the runners and be like, look, like this is a fundamental change.
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.519
If you want to refund or defer, I will not fault you.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.320
Go ahead and take it.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.159
That just seems like good business.
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:51.039
Yeah.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.079
I I don't know.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:54.480
For the long term, that's how it seems.
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:59.039
Maybe, maybe you rely more on returning customers than UTMB does.
00:41:59.119 --> 00:41:59.519
I don't know.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:13.119
Maybe they're in the market of like, yeah, we can we can afford to just let all these people be one and done and then move on to the next crop of people that see, you know, an Instagram reel about this race and decide they want to go do it.
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.719
Um I don't know.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:29.760
But uh yeah, that is a bummer, especially like like from your standpoint too, Jeff, of like it, it changes, it kind of alters the next bit of your racing season because of the physical demands of the last uh like 40k.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.599
You say 40k or 40 miles?
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:32.480
40k.
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:33.679
But it is funny.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:36.480
It's like, oh, if it was harder, then it would have less damage on me.
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:42.960
But because it's flatter, it's gonna have more damage on me, which is probably gonna impact me more, which like there's a ton of truth to.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:44.559
I'll say this.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:43:01.199
I I think I uh as a fellow event director, it it I can I feel UTMB's pain being told back in the fall that they were gonna get this permit, and then they kind of hand shook on it, and then at this hour, two months before the race, they are told something totally different and they have to make this change.
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:02.400
So that's a bummer.
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:03.039
That is a bummer.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:04.800
I wonder that why.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:05.920
I don't know.
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:14.000
Why now all of a sudden there's pushback to like did the fields grow a ton from four years ago to now, or have they been about this size?
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:19.119
Aaron Powell Apparently, Flooring's saying they've been trying to increase the fields by 100 to 200 each year.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:24.320
Aaron Powell So maybe they're just going back to like 2019 sizes?
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:25.039
Aaron Powell Maybe.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.840
And then I've also heard that there's been difficulty with aid stations in some of the affected regions in the past, like getting supplies out there, staffing, et cetera.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.719
So I think there's it's complicated.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:40.559
Um there's definitely a sweet spot always for like race capacity for some of these races.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:51.039
Where it's like like, you know, like uh like the like pine to palm hundred uh RIP pine to palm, they could have had 500 runners like permitted for it.
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:59.360
But like from a aid from an aid station crew logistics standpoint, no, you just don't do that because it would be a nightmare.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:03.920
Um I was interesting back to Bandera twenty nineteen.
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:12.159
The race director, Chris McWaters, had to literally change the entire Oh, I think I ran that one course.
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:14.400
Um at the Christian camp.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.039
Yeah.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.480
To the week before uh to um yeah, Camp Eagle.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.800
Like it was like a hundred miles away.
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:28.239
It was not it was a low anywhere, it wasn't close to Hill Country State Park type deal.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:33.360
And I think he went about that in like a I mean it was it was a very real issue.
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:37.360
I don't remember honestly if it was like horses or flooding.
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.079
Flooding at the end of the main parking lot area was just underwater.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:42.639
Yeah.
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:49.280
Um but for them to pull that off and like move that whole race in literally like a a week's time was a was a wild thing.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:55.119
And like I had chosen that race because the year before I'd gone to it and I like knew the course and I was like, this is good.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.199
I'm gonna get a golden ticket if I go back to the course I know and like try to hammer there.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.880
And like, yeah, we deal with adversity, we deal with things as they change.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.400
Like it's it's not always in the race's control.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:20.800
Um I do think in both the case of JFK and uh Snowdonia here, like transparency and like updates as it's going, even like we're trying to figure this out.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.320
Like we're gonna try to offer some options to runners.
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:34.639
Um I was looking for that email from Chris McWaters to see if he actually offered credit because I think he did, but that's a different, different scale race.
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:46.000
Uh Teos Trails puts on awesome events, but um yeah, it was another time like having a week to pivot is very different from having two months.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:56.480
But you think uh you think there'd be the same amount of like internet blowback if Snowdonia announced that the course changes added 2,000 more meters of climbing?
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:59.360
That's what happened at UTMB'd Nice last year.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:01.360
It it they added the course got harder.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:05.199
They added vert, but uh but um no one complains about more vert, right?
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:11.280
I think that's just kind of funny how it's like you can always give Vert, but as soon as you take it away, there's a mutiny.
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.239
That is pretty yeah, true.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.760
Uh that Bandera year, the course got a lot harder.
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:20.079
I I think you'll appreciate this.
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:39.360
The one email I did find from uh January 9th, 2019, so the week after Bandana, Bandera, I got third at that race, so I did not get a golden ticket, was an email that I sent to Brian Powell inquiring that if he was going to potentially need any additional on-the-ground help at Western States because I failed at my goal of getting a golden ticket.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:44.159
I didn't have another opportunity to try with my job, and I really wanted to be there.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.320
That's I'm really good at tweeting.
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:49.119
Wait, were you on the ground doing iron far coverage?
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.800
No, Brian let me down soft.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:57.039
He was like, Thanks, Jeff, but I don't need little did he know the career that you would develop.
00:46:57.519 --> 00:46:59.039
That was the turning point.
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:03.679
Okay, I'll I'll quickly summarize the JFK situation.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:14.400
Basically, for the since forever, JFK has been collecting hotel tax revenue from the county to help fund their police force and medical teams on race day.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:20.719
Last fall, the county informs JFK that revenue stream is no longer going to be available to you.
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:25.519
You have to fund that budget shortfall elsewhere via race registration increases, whatever.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.519
So they know this information six months before race registration opens March 1st.
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.840
That information is not disclosed on their website to the public.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:44.079
And they go ahead and open race registration, they get about a thousand entries, and then a week into registration being opened, this article breaks about that news.
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:52.480
And the JFK race directing team is openly threatening to move the race from Washington County to Frederick County.
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:55.679
Totally talk about 100% altering the course.
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.000
Different course.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:12.639
So another example, albeit from an independent race, not a corporate race, of selling runners on a his a very historic course and then calling that entirely into question shortly after the fact.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:19.199
So it must be a very large sum of money where they couldn't add it to like race entry fees.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:20.400
It's$30,000.
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:21.199
It's$30,000.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:29.840
I think I think it would which which they have a thousand entries so far, it would come out to like a$30 increase per runner if they wanted to fund it that way.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:31.039
They could have done it.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:32.719
Or they could eat the margin.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.440
A lot of companies did that with tariffs, right?
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:41.280
Put 7% on the consumer and 8% on the company or whatnot.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:50.400
Um I think the the funny thing about this whole hotel tax revenue thing is like it was always planned to go away.
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.800
It was like just to help a company get its foothold in the region.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.320
You know, this article that you shared, Finn, I was like reading through and it's like it's pretty clear.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:07.199
It was like, hey, this was like this is a gesture to help businesses get established, and like JFK is established.
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:08.480
It seems like it helped them.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:16.480
Uh, you know, it's something that they've had at their back for as many years as they've been, you know, organizing the event or whatnot.
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:25.599
Um so is this just like negligent like poor planning then of being like, oh, whoa, this is the year.
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:37.519
Maybe it it it says here this is coming from uh the we said Washington County.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:38.559
Yeah.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:50.880
Um but it says HRT program is intended to provide temporary assistance to help events establish long-term sustainability and fiscal year 25 represented the final year of the HRT support for the race.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:58.639
So it's like this was a known It was known it was going to happen, um and it happened.
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:01.599
So here's what I wonder.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:07.199
I wonder if JFK has ever commissioned a report that indicates their impact on tourism to the region.
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:13.519
I wonder if they know the number that they basically bring in each year on the event, and they're using that as a bargaining chip.
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:22.400
And it's like, you're asking, like we we have like we've done this, like here's the ROI of this event to the county, and we are so powerful and established, we're gonna basically threaten to go.
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.280
And I wonder if they expect the county to be like, okay, never mind.
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:26.480
Like we'll we'll cave.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:27.840
It's a bluff.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.320
It's a Frederick County bluff.
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.840
Yeah.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.880
Whereas, you know, yeah, the and the county's like, you weren't so damn good.
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:40.800
They're their their response is like, we really appreciate everything you've done.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:47.360
And like we outlined this very clearly, and this is like what we had budgeted for.
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:57.599
So And there's no um there's been no like, hey, person who registered for JFK, we might move the course to something completely different.
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.320
If you want a refund, we'll give you a refund.
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:07.440
Or is it with kind of like Snowden, where they have no intention of uh giving any money back to its registrants?
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:11.199
Aaron Powell Well, yeah, the and then the JFK policy on the website is no refunds, no deferrals.
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.079
Well, yeah, they wouldn't even give like a pregnancy deferral last year.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:14.559
No.
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.039
I mean, there was like a whole thing about that.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.920
So this this seems more egregious than Snowdia to me.
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:35.840
I mean, that JFK course has been around for You know what's funny in all of our conversation around like times versus competition, JFK is just one of the course that like I actually think time is more relevant.
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:38.159
Talk to me about like the courses.
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:41.280
Give me give me your top three courses where you're like time's relevant.
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:43.280
JFK and Western states are there.
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:44.719
Yeah, I agree.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.480
Yeah, that's like JFK has very much been a I mean it's competitive, but it's been a time trial type course as well.
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:58.000
Um I mean i uh it's largely a road race.
00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:05.199
Still an ultra marathon, but um yeah, that's a that would be a pretty big bummer.
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:22.880
Like I would be bummed because I I don't know what a lot of the reasons for why someone would sign up for JFK for me, it would be to see how I can do on that course because it's been around for so long and it's got like such a you know historied list of you know finishers where I'd wonder course.
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:28.559
That aside, it's just more like I want to see where I, you know, how I could do on that one.
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:32.079
But then if they were like, you're moving it, we're moving to somewhere else.
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:37.840
I'm like, I already don't know where in America this is because I live in southern Oregon.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:38.800
You move it somewhere else.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.920
I'm like, what did I even go there for?
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:43.039
Come on now.
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:54.239
So we uh when we do the crowdfunding event for um the Backyard Ultra, we can just tack on it.
00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:59.199
Do you also want to contribute to the JFK$30,000 fund to keep it in Washington County?
00:52:59.519 --> 00:52:59.920
Yeah.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:06.880
Dude, knowing Jamil Airvipa Mountain Outposts, just like snap of the fingers, it's taken care of.
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:08.639
Look at that.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:12.639
JFK prevented presented by Aravipa running.
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:13.519
Yeah.
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:17.119
This episode of the show is also brought to you by Momentous.
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Okay, so we have a new segment.
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:11.280
It's called Overreaction, Underreaction.
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.760
I'm gonna read a statement, uh, starting with you, Brett, and then we'll ultra.
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.039
So uh Brett, you first on this one, Jeff, you first on the next one.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.400
But overreaction, underreaction, first one here.
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:27.360
Molly Seidel is immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:28.320
Brett.
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:34.000
I mean, I furiously typed on my keyboard, no.
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:36.239
Underreaction.
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:40.159
So is that is I I don't understand overreaction, underreaction.
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:41.519
Well, think over under.
00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:44.320
The statement is quality of under.
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:48.239
Are you are you saying totally like I'm I'm over on that or I'm under on that?
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:49.199
No, I'm under.
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:50.800
Underreaction is like, of course.
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:52.159
Like I I think so.
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:53.440
Oh, okay.
00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:57.039
See, and oh an overreaction is like, oh, that's crazy.
00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:58.320
Like, come on now.
00:55:58.559 --> 00:55:58.880
Okay.
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.800
I wrote overreaction, being like, nah, no.
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:14.719
She's not immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender because she got fourth in a race when the three in front of her are also running Western states.
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:23.760
Have the three in front of her ever won footlockers or NCAAs or gotten an Olympic medal?
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:24.719
No.
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:30.639
But some of them have done some pretty good things in the trails.
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:31.440
For sure.
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:42.079
I again I know I stand by like I I think this like uh there's like, oh Molly's like new to the trails, like, no, especially in like the what is the value of Molly Seidel?
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:48.960
And I'm like, well, you need to ask, like, what is the value of someone who's been the best in the world at every level of their career?
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:49.519
Yeah.
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:54.880
I also wrote, I think she's in the conversation for the podium, but I don't think she's a lock.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:55.679
Okay.
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:56.960
Yeah.
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:05.360
Like, I think her range, like, you know, for someone uh, you know, someone like we'll use like Abby Hall, for example.
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:10.320
I think like good day, bad day are like pretty small together.
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:14.880
Molly's like good day and bad day are really far apart right now.
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:16.400
Okay.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:18.480
Like just from a you know, an experience level.
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:21.599
But it's like could Molly win Western states?
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:22.880
Absolutely.
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.239
Could Molly stop at the first aid station?
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:30.719
Could happen too.
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:35.599
Yeah, I think I think it's uh I'm in agreement with Brett on this one.
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:51.280
Um in general, I think Molly has a really, really good scaffolding and support system around her, and uh it's cool to see um how how she fared at Black Canyon.
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.760
I think Molly Sidel will be a future Western States champion.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:02.239
Um I don't think that the 2026 Western States is is a lock by any means.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:03.199
Okay.
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:07.360
I still think her micro fade at Black Canyon was the most impressive thing I saw all day.
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:08.800
It was very good.
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:15.199
I also agree with that, and that's what keeps her in the conversation for the podium for me.
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:24.800
But not not a lock, because you you can't make you can't make that mistake 25 miles into western states because it's a hundred miles and not sixty.
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:36.159
Next up, if Jen Lichter wins Western states this year, she is immediately in the highest echelon of female ultrarunners in our sport.
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:37.280
Jeff.
00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:40.719
Yeah, I'm I agree with that.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:59:00.159
I think that's uh I think the reason is like she's already incredibly dominant at the 50k and under distance for her to be able to spread that dominance to the 100k and then in sequence to the 100 mile, um not dissimilar to Hayden, not dissimilar to like Francesco in some ways.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:06.639
You know, I we haven't seen him run the hundred mile yet, but like I would I would put her immediately in that upper echelon.
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:11.679
Um I don't far too early.
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:17.280
I don't think it's gonna happen, but I also like I'm not one to bet against Jen.
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:20.400
Like she was my lock pick for Black Canyon for sure.
00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:27.840
Um yeah, I I agree, Jeff, with what you said.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:30.480
Um a question that I had.
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:36.960
So are we talking like it was like current day like world trail dominance rankings?
00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:38.480
Like current, current, okay.
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:39.119
Yeah, I agree.
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:44.559
If we were talking like if they all retired at the end of this year, where do they rank?
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.280
You know, I think like that's different.
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:59.039
Um but if if if Jen wins Western States this year, uh like currently, then she gets thrown straight into that echelon 100%.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:02.719
Brett, right back to you.
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:11.360
Crowdfunded prize person mounts will surpass event-sponsored person mounts at major trail races by 2028.
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:20.880
I think I think, well, for the mountain out for the Aero Vipa, for the Air Vipa races, I think you're right.
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:21.519
It has to.
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:22.000
It has to.
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.800
Um, but I hope they don't.
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:25.920
And here's why.
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:28.639
I hope they become more of a mutual thing.
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:37.360
So um for Black Canyon, I forget what the amount was, but Aero Vipa matched the crowdfunded amount up to a certain dollar point.
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:41.199
I would love to set up to$5,000 if 16,000 were raised.
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:50.000
Yeah, so I would love to see like Aero Vipa match the first$5,000, Ultra match the next$5,000 because they have Terra Dower racing.
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:59.280
And they're like, yeah, we'll match the next five because we want to and like it'll get shown on the the ticker on the live stream too, that like Hoka or like you know, Ultras matching this.
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:02.320
Hoka matches the next five, Solomon matches next five.
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:10.880
Like, I want to see brands pony up the same amount that uh, you know, fans of the sport are at least one to one.
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:18.079
A bold move for ACG to just pop in there for the Hoka race and drop 15k or something like that.
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:21.519
Yeah, especially with like five minutes to go, you can still do that.
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:24.400
ACG is just like, yeah, we'll match it.
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:34.880
Um I do I think there's some like curiousness of like, all right, were there any unsponsored runners in the top on the podium?
01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:36.239
Jordan Bramblett.
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:37.519
He wasn't on the podium.
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:38.079
Molly Sidel.
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:39.280
No, but he took a ticket.
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:39.760
He took a ticket.
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:40.800
And Molly Cyberdale, yeah.
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:42.320
Molly's a good example, right?
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:53.039
If like Satisfy just put 10K in there, like hinting of like, you know, we like, you know, the the one unsponsored athlete, like we're keen on on working with her.
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.119
Um it's like kind of showing showing some cards there.
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:04.880
Um the like for Western states, that's like what's it gonna that's a guarantee, right?
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:06.480
Like is this gonna happen at Western States?
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:06.800
The crowd.
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:08.480
I hope it happens at Western States.
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:10.559
I like I really do hope it happens at Western States.
01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:12.480
What do you think the winner takes home?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:13.599
What's your number?
01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:15.039
Or way too early number.
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:16.639
What do you what does the winner take home at Western States?
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:18.719
So what was the live stream viewership last year?
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:19.840
Did it eclipse a million?
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:21.119
Can you check on YouTube really quick?
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:22.320
Like for day one stream?
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:26.480
For day one stream, because that'll help with my multiplier.
01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:32.400
But I I believe that the live stream is going to conservatively 2x this year.
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:48.159
So addressable market, and if we compare it against the stream at Black Canyon to a multiplier there, I mean if Black Canyon got 17,000 off of a understanding like you had to pay attention to the live stream to understand that this was going on.
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:54.159
So there has been as much talk about this since it happened that like more people are aware of it.
01:02:54.239 --> 01:03:01.280
I think like going forward on live streams, be that Cocodona, be that Western states, be that other races, I think more people are going to be aware of it.
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:10.880
And yeah, I told Jamil, I told Jamil, I was like, you can actually track like when AJW and Chris Warden were talking about it in those first two hours, the the pot was growing so fast.
01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:14.559
And then it kind of the talk about it tapered off and the pot kind of tapered.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:19.920
So I think if Dylan and Corinne can keep talking about it from start to finish at intervals, it'll really go.
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:24.000
I think Western States had about 5x the viewers of Black Canyon.
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:24.559
Okay.
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:25.519
Yeah.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:27.199
I was I was gonna say ballpark.
01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:40.079
I think the winner from Western States walks with uh 12k from the crowdfunded purse, but that depends on how they want to choose that purse because I would argue that Western states should trickle down to five, or maybe should it trickle down to 10 to 10.
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:42.559
Like 10 would be cool.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:46.559
Ninth place gets$100, 10th place just gets an invite back.
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:48.880
They get the entry paid.
01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:49.360
No.
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:53.119
Wait, do top 10, do you have to pay for that?
01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:53.599
Yeah.
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:54.079
Yeah.
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:56.480
If you get an invite back to next year, you have to pay for it.
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:57.039
It's not paid for.
01:03:57.199 --> 01:03:58.400
Not that I have experience, but yes.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:03:59.760
Okay, so experience.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.119
Okay, so that's what it should be.
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.239
Tenths should at least get their entry paid.
01:04:04.559 --> 01:04:05.039
Yeah.
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.920
Is in form of like an ultra sign-up gift card.
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:08.480
Yeah.
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:09.840
Not cash.
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:12.559
They gotta take it.
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:14.960
Um oh shoot, I lost my notes.
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.159
Um I think it's gonna be bigger.
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:24.800
I think where these crowdfunded price purse, I think where it's gonna really blow up and show off is gonna be a Cocodona this year.
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:31.119
Like, we're talking like you know, 60 hours before the winner comes in.
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:32.639
It's a good question.
01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:42.719
Because like there's a way, there's a world in which Cocodona ends up being the biggest prize purse of the year of any event, and it's like strictly crowdfunded.
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:45.440
I think the winner, maybe this is my my take.
01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.320
I think the winner of Cocodona's taking home 30 G's.
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:49.119
Love it.
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:50.079
So more.
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:50.559
Yeah.
01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:53.039
I think I think winner of Cocodon's taking home 30 grand.
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.639
Well, but I could also see the winner of Western City taking home that much as well.
01:04:57.519 --> 01:04:57.840
Okay.
01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:01.840
Like I could see it being in that$20,000 to$30,000 range.
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:08.559
Which that would be oh man, that would be something.
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:11.519
Throwing this one to you, Jeff, first.
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:20.880
In his age 38, I believe 20th season of ultra running, can Killian Journey still win both Western States and UTMB in the same season?
01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:22.320
No doubt, dog.
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:23.760
I've been saying this all year.
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:25.679
I think Killian and Jim both good.
01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:29.360
Like, I I don't even think it's uh like if I think it's a win.
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:32.079
And I know Killian's already done it, I think he'll do it again.
01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:37.280
Um I think for him, I think for him it's gonna be harder to win Western States.
01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:37.760
Okay.
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:38.800
But how about this?
01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:41.440
Okay, let's let's assume Killian wins Western.
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:48.400
He and if he wins UTMB but beats like a fresh Penn Demon or a fresh gym, do those two guys just have to retire from the sport?
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:51.360
No, but like it's just Killian.
01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:52.320
Killian just got killing.
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:57.199
Killian got stronger from his states of elevation.
01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:58.639
Like, you know, the
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:01.199
Bless that man.
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:02.000
That's what it is.
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:09.199
Bless that man for like being able to contribute himself wholeheartedly to this pursuit in excellence.
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:13.840
And like I love being a spectator to it and getting to experience it.
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:20.639
If Killian wins Western States, there's no doubt in my mind he can re like recover and win UTMB.
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:21.920
Yeah.
01:06:22.239 --> 01:06:25.599
And if he wants to do the all-time triple, recover and win grand reunion.
01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:27.280
Like, you know.
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:33.360
The there there are runners who I think uh they know what it takes to win both of those events.
01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:36.880
And that's why I put specifically Jim and Killian in this boat.
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.000
Like they know what both races calls for.
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:45.679
I actually think Jim could probably win Western States, you know, quote unquote easier than anyone else.
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:48.480
Um if he's if he's smart about it.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:54.800
And then, you know, I think UTMB has proven to be more of a mammoth for him than states.
01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:55.440
Yeah.
01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:56.159
But I agree.
01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:59.679
This is my prediction for the year that the men's winner is going to win both.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.000
And I think that's I stand by it.
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:03.199
I like that.
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:11.679
And I was just, I'm continually like, because there's been a couple like blogs that Killian has come out with, you know, talking about Western states.
01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:27.280
And I'm amazed at how much like sleep he seems to have lost about western states last year, and how fired up he is to come back and be like, oh yeah, like I I you know, he was sick, he did he made some mistakes.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:29.599
He's like, Oh, I got some things to iron out.
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:33.039
Like, I'm like, and I want to fix that.
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:36.880
And I want, you know, 2026 to be the year of racing.
01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:45.760
It's like, oh man, like 2025, like woke up the beast of Killian, being like, oh, dude.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:51.840
This is not at all like Jeff McGavro closed even spread.
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:59.440
We were with Killian with 90 at 90 miles with 10 miles to go, and Killian beat Jeff by 11 minutes.
01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:03.280
Killian closed that race so hard.
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:04.000
Yeah.
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:07.280
And I think he like thought that people were gonna come back to him.
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.800
And you know, he and Jeff had been battling for 60 kilometers.
01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:12.880
So like it wasn't like Jeff came back to him.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:18.000
Like we we started at Greengate, you know, the four of us kind of all together.
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:23.359
Um so I I really thought he was gonna, or I think he thought he was gonna catch Chris or Caleb.
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:32.319
And yeah, he just made a tactical error early on, and I'm sure he's looking back on it, just being like, Yep, I should have won that race.
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:33.680
I should have gone earlier.
01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:33.840
Yeah.
01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:39.359
Now I have to go back and do it again, and then win Sierras and all, and then win UTMB.
01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:42.560
I I had this reaction in 2022.
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:44.640
Killian had his best season ever.
01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:46.640
Uh, I'm pretty sure it was 2022.
01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:56.479
And I was like, this is so crazy that like, you know, 11 years after he wins Western States, he has his best season ever.
01:08:56.640 --> 01:09:00.159
And then every year since I've been like, actually, nothing's crazy.
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:04.159
I expect Killian to have his best season ever next season.
01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:07.119
He will forever be one of one.
01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:08.239
Yeah.
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:09.760
One comment from me.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:20.800
Uh, if you look back at one of the time, so when he won the double in 2011, Western and UTMB, he from what I can tell in UTMB and Ultra Saturn raced at least nine times that year.
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:23.680
In 26, he's only racing three times.
01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:27.039
Sears and all along with Western UTMB.
01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:31.760
So that's interesting, like racing at least the 66% less or three times less.
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:34.000
He doesn't he doesn't need Rustbusters anymore.
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:34.640
No.
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:38.319
I actually I wouldn't be surprised if he does the VK at Broken Arrow.
01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:38.960
Okay.
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:40.000
Again.
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:47.760
Except I would yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he throws throws like a a VK in going into Western states.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:10:00.399
But I would just in this era where some pros are specializing, I just think it would be a really tough pill to swallow if someone beats you fresh on the second half of their double.
01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:01.439
That's tough.
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:16.239
Yeah, I mean, you're just trying to, you know, there's just you're just making excuses at that point, being like, oh, you gotta be fresh for this, you know, you're this type of athlete, that it's like Killian running's running, you know?
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:28.159
If there were anyone that had the years and accumulative hours of training log that Killian had, I feel like they could be bummed about that.
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:29.439
But there isn't.
01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:29.840
Yeah.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Like they're like Yeah, no one's to the stage of career that Killian's at and saying that.
01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:37.840
Yeah.
01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:47.840
But isn't isn't that isn't that much again, we use the term like mileage and like isn't that many minutes played or mileage typically Eric can be a liability?
01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:51.039
It can be, but I do think experience is like the greatest.
01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:54.079
That's that's why I think Molly Sidel will win Western States.
01:10:54.159 --> 01:10:55.039
I don't think it'll be this year.
01:10:55.199 --> 01:11:00.479
I think it's experience when it comes to these hundred mile races is most everything.
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:06.239
And like once you get a grip of it and like understand a little bit more, things come more naturally.
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:17.920
You know, it it takes winning 3,500s for Jeff Browning to realize he can come back from being like five hours down and actually like respond and you know, come back to podium or whatever it is.
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:31.359
You know, like these these phenomenal like back to life uh experiences we've seen these like really tenored uh hundred mile runners have is like because they know it.
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:37.119
They're like our bodies are so much more capable than we think they are, it's gonna respond, things will be all right.
01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:40.800
I just need to like embrace the suck for the next couple hours.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:42.079
Okay.
01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:43.119
I don't know.
01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:44.880
That's like and I hear you.
01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:56.159
Like, if you know, for the folks focusing on UTMB, if Killian comes back from winning Western states and beats them at UTMB, like I just think it it should be inspiring.
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:09.840
And if someone fresh beats Killian at UTMB for the win, I will not ever utter, oh well Killian was tired because he ran Western States.
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:17.119
Like, if someone beats Killian at UTMB this year, after Killian wins Western States, it's a fair fight.
01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:18.399
He is recovered.
01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:20.479
Yep.
01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:21.439
Agreed.
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:21.920
Yeah.
01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:29.680
And if anyone else, and if anyone out there says that in the comments, I'll fight them with my keyboard.
01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:30.720
I want it to happen.
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:32.399
I'm manifesting it.
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:35.920
Yeah.
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:41.359
Yeah, you've seen that uh uh what's the movie where they curve the bullets?
01:12:42.560 --> 01:12:43.840
Um The Matrix.
01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:44.479
Wanted?
01:12:44.720 --> 01:12:45.039
No.
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:47.359
Is it called Wanted?
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:54.560
Is that no Angelina Jolie's in it and um Morgan Freeman's in it?
01:12:55.199 --> 01:13:01.119
Anyways, at the very beginning of the movie, the dude just like slaps his boss with a keyboard.
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:03.359
That was all I was thinking about.
01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:04.960
Seems like the movie you're talking about.
01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:06.000
Wanted.
01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:07.279
That's what I said.
01:13:07.520 --> 01:13:08.319
Okay, wanted.
01:13:08.479 --> 01:13:08.800
Wanted.
01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:08.960
Yeah.
01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:10.159
That's a good movie.
01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:11.199
Yeah.
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:12.079
Okay.
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:14.720
All right, Brett, coming back to you here.
01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:15.439
All right.
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:18.159
Golden overreaction, underreaction.
01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:19.520
This is our last one, by the way.
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:23.039
Golden ticket races are now harder to win than western states.
01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:24.399
Absolutely not.
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:25.279
Okay.
01:13:26.399 --> 01:13:32.399
There's there's too much, there's there's still more pressure at Western states to win and perform.
01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:41.039
And like you still get the people who win the golden ticket races not winning Western states.
01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:47.439
I I think the like Finn, last year Abby did not win a golden ticket race, but she won Western States, right?
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:52.560
My my far too early pick to win Western States this year on the women's side is Anne Flower.
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:56.239
She did not win at Black Canyon.
01:13:56.960 --> 01:14:01.680
But Abby and Ann are like really well suited for the Western States course.
01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:05.359
Are they better suited for that course than Black Canyon?
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:06.800
Like, I would argue yes.
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:13.920
Uh, I don't think that golden tickets or golden ticket races are harder to win than Western states.
01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:24.319
I would actually still go ahead and say against popular opinion, it's easier to get a golden ticket than it is to get a returning top ten to Western states.
01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:26.640
I think that's a great take.
01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:35.760
And like I it maybe it's year to year, but like maybe we should ask a lot of the people who've won golden ticket races.
01:14:37.199 --> 01:14:39.920
Was it easier winning and win and won Western states?
01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:43.439
How many people have won a golden ticket race and western states?
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:44.800
Which one was harder to win?
01:14:45.039 --> 01:14:46.640
Yeah, it's it's not that many people.
01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:52.720
And and I I go back to like, right, Tom Evans was second at Black Canyon, won Western states.
01:14:52.800 --> 01:15:00.720
That like the Western States is gonna suit some runners better than others.
01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:01.279
Yeah.
01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:07.359
Um I'm psyched to see Will Murray because I think Will Murray can win golden ticket races, and I think he could win Western States.
01:15:07.520 --> 01:15:13.600
Like, you know, did Killian, you know, I guess he's he's coming back from a top ten, but like yeah.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:36.000
The I think a lot of a lot of these like top-tier pros that didn't win bla uh, you know, a a golden ticket race, but then won Western states were also like assuming they were gonna get a ticket, and then the the A goal for the whole training block was Western States.
01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:42.560
So like I I feel like like Tom was fitter at Western States than he was at Black Canyon.
01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:58.479
Um and also Western States probably suits him as a course better than Black Canyon, so it's like a compounding level of things, but uh I still think it's harder to win Western States, um, even courses aside, just the pressure.
01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:06.880
This was uh this this prompt was generated in our text thread yesterday.
01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:27.680
Basically, it's it's it's it's it's a it's a matchup wish list, either anticipated, like it's on paper already for this year, and you're looking forward to just watching it as a as fan as a fan of the sport, or like if you could create a matchup based on active pro old runners out there, like so you can go in either directions.
01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:32.800
Brett, who's your idealized matchup for 26?
01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:41.840
I mean, I would say it's it it's a it exists, um and it's it's Katie versus Courtney at Hard Rock.
01:16:42.960 --> 01:16:49.520
Like that's been one that I've thought about for ever since the first year I commentated at Hard Rock.
01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:55.840
Um, because like I've gotten to see Courtney win it in person, and I've gotten to see Katie win it in person.
01:16:56.720 --> 01:17:03.520
And you know, them like flip-flopping course records, they're both still running really well.
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:08.319
It's like that sort of and and then they both end up on the star list.
01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:13.439
It's like, man, that sort of opportunity just doesn't happen very often.
01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:17.760
So that's like that's one of the really big ones.
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:19.439
Um I like it.
01:17:19.680 --> 01:17:20.319
Yeah.
01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:26.800
I really wish I we'd gotten to see Jen Lichter and Katie at Worlds in the 50 mile.
01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:29.199
I think that would have been really good.
01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:30.800
I think that would have been so sweet.
01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:38.960
Katie had an incredibly dominant performance, but I think we all we all felt like Jen was very strong uh going into that one and is still very strong.
01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:40.880
Bum da bum she missed that.
01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:54.239
Um yeah, I I think Katie at Western States with this year's field and Ann Flower in that race and Jen Lichter in that race, and uh like I I think it would be a better matchup.
01:17:54.399 --> 01:17:58.640
I think we all waited uh and have been waiting for the Katie Courtney rematch.
01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:03.760
Um and like Courtney brews me wrong and she'll continue to prove me wrong.
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:17.520
But like I'll say, like I I think right now I I'm more confident in Katie winning hard rock than uh Katie lining up to that Western States field and having having a easy win.
01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:26.159
Finn, what course would you like to see Katie and Courtney race against each other on the most?
01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:30.159
That's a fantastic question.
01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:31.920
I think probably hard rock.
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:33.359
Yeah, hard rock for those two.
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:40.560
Yeah, I think I think I think I think it's the best meeting place to like equalize things at the respective stages of their careers.
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:45.279
I like I like the I like the hard rock course as a matchup.
01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:56.960
It also feels um like it almost feels like there's more spotlight on it because it's like I mean like Tara Dower is definitely a big wild card in that field as well.
01:18:57.359 --> 01:18:59.359
But kind of because it's like a one-on-one race.
01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:04.560
Yeah, it's that Charlie Lawrence effect sort of thing.
01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:18.079
Um the the elevation factor at Hard Rock is like, I just know talking to Kenny and German last year, you know, the altitude like was super hard to adjust to.
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:20.399
Uh and Courtney just lives at that altitude.
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.600
So um, you know, that might be uh lending a favor in in her direction there.
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:36.800
And you know, I I think if you were to look at Western States, Grand Raid, UTMB, and Hard Rock, like is Hard Rock the the race where it'll be closest?
01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:38.239
I think the answer is yeah.
01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:41.520
I think that's where like they're maybe the most even.
01:19:42.720 --> 01:19:43.039
Okay.
01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:47.119
This one, I feel like this matchup doesn't get talked up enough.
01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:47.920
Or maybe it doesn't.
01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:51.520
I'm not paying attention, but I want to see Katie and Ruth.
01:19:51.920 --> 01:19:54.079
And I want to see a m a rematch at UTMB.
01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:57.840
So obviously Katie took the win there in 24, beat Ruth.
01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:00.960
I think it was like 35, 40 minutes.
01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:08.239
Uh, if you go way back in their careers, I think Ruth has Katie at Zagama, and I think it was Tomplier maybe.
01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:09.279
But I I don't know.
01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:17.520
I I feel like they're yeah, I don't know what you guys think, but that matchup in that matchup almost intrigues me more right now than Katie versus Courtney.
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:32.479
That's I mean, that is a great one because you know that year Katie was I think what was it, her knee was starting to go on that final descent, and Ruth went out way too conservative and was just raging the second half, especially the last 50k.
01:20:32.880 --> 01:20:38.079
Um, so it's like I'm sure Ruth wanted to do over there, and then when she got it, she won.
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:49.600
Um yeah, that that would be a very dynamic matchup as well, especially because like it seems like like Ruth's really finding the like the long mountain legs right now.
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:50.640
Yeah.
01:20:50.960 --> 01:21:03.840
I think on the uh on the men's side, I think seeing a showdown between Francesco, Killian, and Jim at Western States would be like fascinating.
01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:06.720
And last year's Western States was amazing.
01:21:06.880 --> 01:21:12.239
I really don't want anyone to try to do this whole unbreakable two thing again and and jinx it.
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:27.039
But uh the like the men's field is shaping up to be incredibly strong, and that's runners like Hans Troyer proving how like mature they've gotten and how much stronger he is.
01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:37.199
Um you know, if Francesco didn't dislocate his shoulder, hurt himself uh at Black Canyon, like does he actually beat Hans?
01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:39.359
Like, yeah, maybe hard saying.
01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:55.039
Like these are the what-ifs of uh the early days of long-run archives, but yeah, Francesco and Jim and Killian all at Western States would be a real treat.
01:21:55.279 --> 01:22:03.119
Um throw throw a couple other guys in there, like Hayden and Hans and Jeff McGavro and Will Murray.
01:22:03.279 --> 01:22:04.000
Will Murray?
01:22:04.079 --> 01:22:04.640
Yeah, dude.
01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:05.199
Oh man.
01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:16.720
As an aside, uh, I highly recommend everyone go watch Francesco's latest vlog on his YouTube channel, which provides a really interesting backstory on just how he trains, philosophy, all that stuff.
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:21.439
One of the takeaways, he's had the same coach since the Italian equivalent of high school.
01:22:21.840 --> 01:22:27.760
That's wild to have someone be able to like successfully coach you through so many different events.
01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:28.800
It's almost 20 years.
01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:33.920
And then training for 100 miles.
01:22:34.239 --> 01:22:34.479
Yeah.
01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:44.079
And and the coach, I mean, one of the there's many quotes in the vlog, but one of the uh comments that the coach has is like, Francesco's VO2 Max is 70.
01:22:44.239 --> 01:22:50.720
He has uh basically not an elite VO2 Max, but he is elite at using like the highest fraction of it possible.
01:22:51.039 --> 01:22:57.439
That's how I knew it was his coach for a long time, because his coach was just like, Oh yeah, on paper he's not very good.
01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:00.239
But he's very good.
01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:02.000
Totally.
01:23:02.239 --> 01:23:10.720
But yeah, he's like but basically the coach like Francesco outperforms people that are better than him because he is a more strategic worker, you know?
01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:11.600
Yeah.
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:12.960
Really cool.
01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:14.560
That's super cool.
01:23:14.880 --> 01:23:20.159
So I feel like we have time either for a mystery topic, a content find.
01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:22.239
I don't know, what do you guys want to do?
01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:30.159
I got a I guess as a content finding a mystery or slash best thing I found on the internet this week.
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:35.359
And it was because, Finn, it was because you ran the LA Marathon that I got to watch this.
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:48.880
So I found on, you know, like NBC four, NBC five, whatever the LA news station was, they were putting on um the LA Marathon, and it was available for free to watch on the LA Marathon website, which was awesome.
01:23:49.600 --> 01:23:51.279
So I just started watching the race.
01:23:51.439 --> 01:23:53.359
I mean, I didn't see I didn't see you.
01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:58.159
I was watching your tracker, but then I was like, well, I might as well just watch the marathon since it's here.
01:23:58.319 --> 01:24:01.680
And the men's finish was insane.
01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:07.680
Um, I forget the name of the guy who ended up getting second, but he was off the front early.
01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:10.800
And I think at halfway he was like four minutes up.
01:24:11.119 --> 01:24:14.000
Because other thing that the LA Marathon did that was really cool.
01:24:14.079 --> 01:24:17.520
So they staggered the men's and women's starts by a certain amount of time.
01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:20.159
I forget exactly what it was, but it was like staggered.
01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:22.159
It was well, it was staggered.
01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:22.880
Yeah, it was deep.
01:24:23.119 --> 01:24:34.079
I don't know if it was the differentials in the course records or what, but it was staggered in a way where it gave equal opportunity for the first person to cross the finish line, man or woman got an extra$10,000 bonus.
01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:38.399
So it insid it said it incentivized going out like pretty recklessly.
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:43.600
And on the women's and the men's side, one person from each field did that.
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:46.239
And it made for these like massive fades.
01:24:46.399 --> 01:25:00.159
And um on the men's side, the the the guy who was leading all day, he got outleaned at the finish line and he lost by 0.1 to Nathan Martin.
01:25:00.319 --> 01:25:20.000
But then right after that, a video on Instagram started going viral because he, the the lead male with like 200 meters to go, follows the lead cars who were pulling off to the side of the course because they were clearing room because you can like see the finish line.
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:20.399
Yep.
01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:26.479
He follows them and he goes to the other side of the barriers for like, you know, a couple seconds.
01:25:26.800 --> 01:25:30.479
Couple seconds, just enough for everyone to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, you got to go on this side.
01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:34.640
So he stops and turns around, and then he gets out-leaned.
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:39.760
And it was like, then it, you know, all the comments are like, where's the crowd control?
01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:40.479
What's going on?
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:41.520
Like, how did this happen?
01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:49.520
Because there was also a fan running next to him with like a Kenyan flag that maybe distracted him that caused him to go that way.
01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:54.399
I I don't know about that, but all the comments are like, what the hell's going on here?
01:25:55.439 --> 01:25:59.359
I I wonder if he's getting outleaned either way.
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:05.680
He must have, I I I suspect because he looked pretty out of it at the finish.
01:26:05.760 --> 01:26:06.640
I wonder if he was on the ground.
01:26:08.239 --> 01:26:08.960
On the ground for a while.
01:26:09.039 --> 01:26:20.239
And I wonder if like that is a I think it's a different situation than the US half marathon champs, where like that was so egregious with what the the race uh camera officials and whatnot did.
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:24.159
But this was more like, I mean, the cam the the car typically does that in all marathons, right?
01:26:24.239 --> 01:26:26.000
That are televised where like they pull off last minutes.
01:26:26.079 --> 01:26:28.319
So like as a runner, that's your obligation to know that.
01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:31.439
And I think he must have just been so in the pain cave, so you know.
01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:34.960
I think he was that spent that he just made a he made an error.
01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:35.359
Yeah.
01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:38.319
It did seem like the flag didn't help.
01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:39.680
Definitely didn't help.
01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:46.399
The woman with the flag like blocked his vision enough to not see the shoot in front of him and to follow the car.
01:26:46.560 --> 01:26:47.439
But yeah.
01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:50.479
Yeah, but it was just oh man, so dramatic.
01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:51.439
That entire finish.
01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:52.640
I was like watching it.
01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:58.800
The commentators had no idea that Nathan was coming up on him because he was so far back, even with 200 meters to go.
01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:05.680
Um, but if anyone just goes on YouTube and just types an LA marathon finish, like that's what's going to come up now.
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:08.880
And I I would go watch it because it's just nuts.
01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:16.800
But where I'm going with this was that the LA Marathon in the last few years, from a competitive standpoint, has increased quite dramatically.
01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:19.039
Like the elite fields have gotten quite good.
01:27:19.199 --> 01:27:30.239
Um, but there hasn't been like quite the crowd control in the you know, final mile or whatever uh that some of the bigger like marathon majors have.
01:27:30.479 --> 01:27:41.279
And that just got me thinking like, do you ever get nervous watching like UTMB and the amount of fans that are like climbing or descending with some of the runners towards the finish?
01:27:41.359 --> 01:27:42.560
And it's like Oh yeah.
01:27:42.800 --> 01:27:44.079
La flagier for sure.
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:54.960
Like how like it's only a matter of time before someone really gets in the way and like, you know, makes someone trip at like mile 95 or something and screw something up.
01:27:55.119 --> 01:28:05.840
But it's like, where are we with having like More crowd control in some of these sections of races, which there's pros and cons to that.
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:09.039
We're gonna see it this year at U Timby, but you're gonna be blown away.
01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:11.840
Like at Valarcine, at La Flagre.
01:28:12.079 --> 01:28:13.840
It's uh you're mobbed.
01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:14.479
It's crazy.
01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:17.359
Like these runners, I'm su I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
01:28:17.439 --> 01:28:18.079
This is a great example.
01:28:18.399 --> 01:28:19.840
That there's not like barriers.
01:28:21.039 --> 01:28:21.680
Yeah.
01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:25.760
So that's a good one.
01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:30.079
Brent, have you been to UTMB before?
01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:31.600
This will be my first time.
01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:32.159
Okay.
01:28:32.239 --> 01:28:35.520
I was just I was trying to understand the context with which Finn Finn was saying that.
01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:42.960
Um yeah, Gorge Dillon Notre Dame at UTMB is like it's truly horrifying as a runner or spectator.
01:28:43.119 --> 01:28:48.399
Um I think some people might also describe it as like really special and empowering and uplifting.
01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:51.119
I've seen the videos and I'm like, this looks amazing.
01:28:51.199 --> 01:28:54.239
But at the same time, right back to you know, hazing in college.
01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:55.119
Yeah.
01:28:55.760 --> 01:28:57.520
Um yeah.
01:28:57.840 --> 01:28:59.520
Well, stop talking about traumas.
01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:04.720
It's how I'm gonna be good at backyard ultras.
01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:08.640
Come on, gotta make the Olympics.
01:29:10.239 --> 01:29:20.159
Um was that the was that the question of like when do you find the second time?
01:29:20.319 --> 01:29:23.520
Because I was trying to think of acute examples of when that has happened.
01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:42.880
Yeah, like I don't know, like I remember um the last time Courtney won UTMB, like when she was going up the last climb and descending the final descent, there was like it looked like straight out of forest gum where there was like 300 people running with her.
01:29:43.439 --> 01:29:50.640
Um because like at that, like, you know, you can keep up with an ultra runner at the end of UTMB.
01:29:51.680 --> 01:30:03.359
But it was like I was just sitting there watching the live stream being like, dude, if some idiot isn't paying attention and like knocks one of Courtney's feet, I'm gonna be so because she was like starting to blow up too.
01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:08.560
I was like, I can't believe there aren't officials being like, do not run with the runners.
01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:21.760
I also kind of remember there being some questioning of Jarma Granger was dressed in like a American flag like suit at world championships, like out on the course cheering and stuff.
01:30:22.079 --> 01:30:38.960
And of like, is he like like there because there are strict rules around uh people on course and and like interference and stuff at worlds of like is Jarma like trying to sabotage the US by dressing in red, white, and blue like star pasting?
01:30:39.680 --> 01:30:40.319
Yeah.
01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:43.279
I don't think that's ever his intent.
01:30:43.439 --> 01:30:46.640
Um but I'm gonna I'm gonna end us on this.
01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:48.479
This is uh a little bit of breaking news.
01:30:48.560 --> 01:31:00.479
It happened, I think, on Instagram a few days ago, but Sally McCrae announced that she is leaving Nike and is actively courting new sponsors, I'm guessing like a new shoe deal, and she's in the process of trialing shoes.
01:31:00.640 --> 01:31:11.760
This is wild because I was this is an aside a little bit, but I was on a work trip to San Francisco last fall, and I went, I stopped in an SF running company, and at SF Run Co.
01:31:12.079 --> 01:31:16.560
they have a poster of the 2014 Nike Trail team.
01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:27.119
And I remember being there at the store looking at it and being like, that is amazing, and commenting that like of all the people, Zach Miller, Tim Tollefson, Vargo, Laney, Gelfi, go down the list.
01:31:27.279 --> 01:31:30.239
The only person left 12 years on was Sally.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:34.960
And she was the last person to leave like that hallmark team in our sport.
01:31:35.520 --> 01:31:38.159
So I don't know if there's a question or a comment there.
01:31:38.479 --> 01:31:39.119
It's over.
01:31:39.359 --> 01:31:39.840
It's over.
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:43.039
That era is officially bookended like today.
01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:47.439
I hadn't thought about that part until you just said that.
01:31:47.600 --> 01:31:49.680
That's wow.
01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:51.840
Now, now that's kind of a big deal.
01:31:52.000 --> 01:32:13.520
Because I was looking at it, I was looking at it in terms of like today, and I'm like, you know, Sally's so good at the what she does and like the lane that she's carved out in this sport that I I wouldn't be surprised if it was her decision to part ways with Nike and not that they like couldn't come to an agreement or something like that.
01:32:13.680 --> 01:32:23.760
Like, I think she could have stayed with Nike for however long she wanted, and she would still be a great brand ambassador for Nike and be able to do great things with them.
01:32:24.079 --> 01:32:38.239
I also believe that Sally could go run for another brand or or not and just be independent and have full freedom to do anything she wants.
01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:44.319
Um I saw her most recent Instagram post, she said like 13 shoe brands has already reached out to her.
01:32:45.039 --> 01:32:51.119
Um so I feel like she's got the uh the momentum right now.
01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:53.279
But um wow, yeah.
01:32:53.520 --> 01:32:58.640
End of the uh the Pat Werhane money ball Nike trail era.
01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:05.279
I I will always think of Sally as like in a yellow Nike tank top.
01:33:05.439 --> 01:33:11.199
Um I don't even know if their picture is real, it's just in my mind of like that's that's Sally McCrae.
01:33:11.439 --> 01:33:16.319
Um the like what's next?
01:33:16.560 --> 01:33:40.960
Like Sally's one of the fan favorites where like not that not that anyone can just like start a shoe company or start an apparel company, but like Sally kind of could pull it off, um be that a apparel company, or like wanting to like really partner with a brand in like an equity uh like a full line of too strong.
01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:42.159
Oh, for sure.
01:33:42.399 --> 01:33:42.880
100%.
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:49.279
Um, I mean she is like, yeah, she's beloved and has a has a huge reach.
01:33:49.520 --> 01:34:02.720
I think like uh seeing seeing Killian do that from Solomon, like little different in terms of his chops with being pretty pretty product and performance focused and whatnot.
01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:06.800
But uh, you know, brands are built in so many ways on social capital.
01:34:06.880 --> 01:34:10.079
And Sally has that coming out of her ears.
01:34:10.800 --> 01:34:12.239
Yeah, this will be a fun one to follow.
01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:13.840
Yeah, definitely.
01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:24.000
It it's also like the Jeff Browning, um, you know, landing at Keen and like getting to shape the culture of that brand.
01:34:24.239 --> 01:34:36.079
Um, like Sally could very well land at a brand and get to be kind of that uh that like um mentor figure and have more of an impact, have more of a shape.
01:34:36.319 --> 01:34:40.159
So guys, this has been a fantastic conversation.
01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:41.279
Thank you so much.
01:34:41.439 --> 01:34:45.840
And yeah, it was a six week ish hiatus of the Long Run Archives, but we're back.
01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:46.720
Thanks, Brett.
01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:47.279
Thanks, Jeff.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.000
The single track podcast is brought to you by Norda, the official footwear partner of the show.
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And if you're getting ready for a race this spring or summer, I must recommend to you their 005 model.
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Don't wait.
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Today's episode is also brought to you by Precision Fuel and Hydration.
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Precision has a free fuel and hydration planner that helps you figure out exactly what you should be taking in per hour based on how you've trained your race and the conditions out there.
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Head to Precisionhydration.com forward slash planner.
00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:57.359
We're back, long run archives number 37, joined by friends, colleagues, Brett Hornig, Jeff Colt.
00:00:57.759 --> 00:00:59.200
Brett, how are you doing today?
00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.320
Dude, I'm doing good.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:06.000
I'm just writing in my notes right now that it's episode 37 because the last few episodes, I was like, I don't know what number we're on.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.159
And I I just like to keep track.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.159
So good to be here.
00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:11.680
37 episodes.
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.760
That's that's a that's getting uh get to be a pretty big number.
00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:20.000
I'm actually tempted to go back and listen to the first just to see what our talk track was.
00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:21.599
Do you remember any of it?
00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:24.400
Uh yeah, I actually do.
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:25.599
Because it was that.
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.519
No, it's it was the first one.
00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:33.359
The biggest thing that I think we hung up on for like three quarters of the episode was just various what ifs.
00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:34.400
Yes.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:40.959
We're like, what if Magda enters the sport four years earlier?
00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.879
What if Jim doesn't miss that turn?
00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:46.959
Does he just win Western states?
00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.200
Be like, see, trails easy, and then just moves on to something else.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.359
I remember we had just a bunch of those.
00:01:53.680 --> 00:02:01.439
Dude, the funniest thing, and we probably recycled a lot of it because I was talking with Jeff the other day and I thought I was having like a totally novel conversation.
00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:07.120
And then Jeff just like sent me the transcript of our first ever podcast together, like four years because, like, dude, nothing has changed.
00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.560
Yeah, literally, we covered like almost all of the same things.
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:18.879
Dude, we like went on a run and got coffee together, and then afterwards I was like, you know, how much have I changed in the last four years or whatnot?
00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:26.479
Like, I went back and listened to Finn Had Me On as like the Chasing Gold series after Black Canyon and listened to this episode.
00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.919
And I was like, all right, actually, I think I've stayed pretty true to myself.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.680
And Finn and I have been having the same conversation for four years.
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.280
That's that's what I love about trail running podcasts.
00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.879
We get older, but the topics stay the same.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:45.520
Okay, with that in mind, we're doing something slightly new this episode.
00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.759
There are a couple of reels that we're gonna highlight, and I want to bring the audience into it.
00:02:50.080 --> 00:03:01.360
So, first topic is Charlie Lawrence, who is the current, I believe, 100K American record holder at the Road 100K or track 100K.
00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:03.680
He has been goaded into doing a backyard ultra.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:05.919
I'm gonna play the reel here for you guys right now.
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.080
This video is for Charlie Lawrence.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.719
Recently on a podcast, you made the following statement.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:12.719
I think like a backyard ultra.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.479
Again, this is me like a strike off arrogant, but I think I could go get a world record in that.
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:16.960
Do I want to?
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:18.159
Yeah, I think you could go.
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:23.280
How much do I how uh name the chat?
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.879
How much do I have to write to see you uh give this a crack?
00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.360
I probably look at halfway to six figures.
00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:30.000
Okay.
00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:31.439
Sure.
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.759
I challenge you to a 1v1 backyard ultra winner take all.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:41.680
I don't need money to show up, but if you do, I bet there's a way we could figure that out.
00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.039
This video's for Charlie.
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.759
React in any which way you you desire, Brett.
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:53.360
Dude, well, Mountain Outpost can put it on and we can crowdfund this prize purse.
00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:55.840
Easy for one.
00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:02.000
Um, maybe even get a couple spons like brand sponsors to pony up some matches.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:09.840
Um also Charlie's not he's not breaking the world record in the backyard ultra.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:15.759
Like does he even know the rules of a backyard ultra?
00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.439
Because I could run a little advocate for you, Brett.
00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:19.680
Yeah.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:23.040
I think he I think Charlie Lawrence probably feeds off of that type of doubt.
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.959
And like if you really want him to do it, like keep saying that he couldn't do it.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:28.399
Um he can't do it.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:28.720
Yeah.
00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:29.680
Charlie's a super impressive.
00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:31.040
You can't do it.
00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:31.680
You can't do it.
00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:32.639
There we go.
00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:34.639
Uh I think he's a super impressive runner.
00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:42.639
I think that's uh not necessarily giving uh um respect to that discipline of like the backyard ultra discipline.
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:44.240
Um I I agree.
00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.199
I think it's uh like surprisingly challenging.
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.040
It's a whole different sport.
00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:49.680
Yeah.
00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.560
And I I still think it's one where like the the needle can be moved.
00:04:54.800 --> 00:05:00.079
And what I love about it is it's like a discipline where the whole goal is to move the needle.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:10.480
So like if you know if Charlie Lawrence is trying to pick up other, you know, gimme world records, I don't know if that's as easy as a gimme as you might think.
00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:12.160
No, I don't think so either.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:27.759
Plus, like, I don't and it it what like what so far from what we've seen in successful backyard ultra runners, like what are the tools that they have that make them successful at it?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.800
And looking at a lot of the like one of them is not top-end speed.
00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:34.319
No, I think it's trauma, dude.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:35.759
I think it's childhood trauma.
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:39.199
I think that's like the major tool you need.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:41.680
Dude, my trauma's bigger than your trauma.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:42.160
Yeah.
00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:45.439
Trauma, that'll take you to 500 plus.
00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:51.040
Um, Mark Dowdle, he's the guy who's calling him out.
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:52.480
I love that video.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:52.720
Yeah.
00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:58.160
I love like, well, I just heard this shit and like I'm just gonna go ahead and call him out right now.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.399
Like he's he's pretty decorated, right?
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:06.000
Like he he's kind of the uh holding court, you know, in in the US in a way right now.
00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:08.879
He has a track record of backyard ultras.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:18.240
I believe he's his current personal best is 283 yards, which would take him, I think, well into day four or five.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:27.360
So he's been deep into these things, and then he just won this race called the Arrowhead 135 out in Minnesota, where you carry a sled with all your gear behind you.
00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:28.480
Nice.
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:30.560
So he's pretty sp I think he's specialized.
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.600
So I it would the maybe the the fight card here would be oh, go ahead.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.360
Sorry, are you saying that you can specialize in uh in this distance?
00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:40.959
Well, that's that's the open question.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:41.759
Well, that was my question.
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:42.720
It was like the main question.
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.480
We already we talked a little bit about specialization in 200s.
00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:48.560
Can you be a specialist in the 200?
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:52.240
And and I think the answer there was like, not really.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:56.879
But maybe that's like short compared to winning a backyard ultra.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:57.759
Yeah.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:00.720
I think the fight card plays that up.
00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:16.800
It's like the person who has invested their career in that particular discipline versus the just like the standout athlete who is super fast and just assumes that he can come in, blow the door down, and dominate the scene.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:17.920
That's the fight card right there.
00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:26.800
Yeah, I think for the last two long run episodes we did together, I bit my tongue around this whole 200-mile scene because, like, quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:35.279
So I don't want to like speak my mouth and say something that will end up resulting in me getting challenged to run a 200 and then having to run a 200.
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:37.759
But Charlie Lawrence did it here, you know.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:41.759
He he kind of, you know, be careful what you wish for.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:50.560
If you say you're gonna break the world record and the backyard ultra and the big dog on campus calls you out on it, like, let's let's see it.
00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:51.759
I I want to make this happen.
00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:52.879
I want to see this happen.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:08:00.000
I think this is stepping stepping stones on the road to LA Olympics 2028 backyard ultra being.
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:01.920
Oh, yeah, with the opening ceremony.
00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:02.639
Yeah.
00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:03.920
Yeah, I agree.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:06.720
I think I would I would watch that.
00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:11.279
That would probably, I mean the yeah, the drama, the table's already been set.
00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:12.959
I mean, it's there, but yeah.
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:22.240
I mean, I just don't see where like having a fast 100K gives you evidence that you can like stay awake for five days.
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:23.120
Yeah.
00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:33.039
I mean, I I do not know a ton about Charlie Lawrence beyond like his posts get paid to show up in my feed, which I typically don't like paid things showing up in my feed.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.279
And he's got this, like, those Adidas shoes were so squishy.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:44.639
Um, and like I think of Charlie Lawrence and I just think of those like super Adidas shoes from the 100K just like squishy.
00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:46.799
I slight side tangent.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:56.159
Whether or not that I cannot believe how, from my point of view, how much Adidas dropped the ball on the marketing for that hundred K.
00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:57.600
Let's talk about that.
00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.720
No, didn't we say that was going on during the Olympics or something?
00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.159
When was it going on again?
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:04.159
It UTMB week, right?
00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.080
Or yeah, it was like, yeah.
00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:18.080
It was completely lost in, I think it might have been UTM B week because like the people who would care about it, I think I was trying to make the argument would have been the ultra-distance community.
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:18.960
Yeah.
00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:32.399
And like they had this amazing teaser reel that like basically said we handpicked like eight of the best hundredk runners in the world that all happened to run for Adidas, and we're gonna break the world record.
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.000
Location, we're not telling you.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:36.240
Race start, we're not telling you.
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:41.440
Like, um, and then and then it happened, and then they were like, We did it.
00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:46.080
And I was like, What why couldn't I watch this?
00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:51.919
And then, like, as I learned some of the details about like where it was and how they did, I was like, this is amazing.
00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.120
Why didn't I get to watch this on TV?
00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:56.720
Come on, guys.
00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:58.559
Like, they built a whole shoe.
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:05.759
They had like F1, like Valteri Bottas got to like give input on the shoe and like talk to it.
00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.840
I'm like, freaking Mercedes and stuff, like what nothing?
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.120
I was like, geez, this was an ultra marathon.
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:24.639
Tom Evans hiking protocol got better PR post-UTMB than this Adidas 100K world record, like says that it was a miss on the Adidas you know side.
00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:31.120
Yeah, like more people know about Tom's hiking and Ruth's hiking than the Adidas 100K world record.
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:32.320
Yeah.
00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:32.879
Yeah.
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:40.000
They must have uh the the Adidas marketing team must have consulted the Boulder Colorado endurance community and told them you can't spray.
00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.120
You can't spray about this.
00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.480
You know, just quietly do the work and talk about it after the fact.
00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.519
They didn't even do that much talking after the fact.
00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:52.960
Like dude, it would that is a great I for I totally forgot about that, Brett.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:53.759
That was wild.
00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:54.639
I know.
00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.679
And I still don't have a pair of those shoes.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.039
I was I was gonna do the buffalo run in them, you know.
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:14.000
When when uh when I was like nine or ten years old, my brother and sister, I think both qualified for Hershey Nationals, uh, or maybe Willie did that year.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:19.440
And we went down, Hershey has like a huge theme park, really cool theme park, right?
00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:25.840
But you have to be 48 inches tall to ride like the really fun rides, like the Great Bear and and whatnot.
00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.840
And at that point I was probably like 45 inches tall.
00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:37.759
So my mom bought me a pair of these black and white platforms that were like truly like three inches, you know, platform shoes.
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:43.600
Um, and I just had like some like long, like kind of like baggy jeans on that were you know in vogue at that era.
00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:44.960
And dude, that's in again.
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:46.879
2000, 2001.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:57.440
And uh like got to ride on all the rides because I was just over 48 inches, and those shoes, the Adidas shoes, remind me of my Hershey Park platforms.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.919
Meanwhile, you're getting like whipped around by the roller coaster, your feet are dangling.
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:07.279
You're just like both ACLs are blown because you got five pounds attached to each ankle.
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.759
I was made of rubber at that point in life.
00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.759
Before we go to this next topic, I can't let this go unaddressed.
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:19.519
Jeff, you hinted earlier that you didn't totally speak your piece about 200 milers.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.679
Oh yeah, I think they're for some people, and that's great.
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:24.240
Okay.
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.240
That that's that's less that's that's less candy.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:35.519
What I was implying was that I didn't uh I didn't want to make any like grandiose statements because quite frankly, I'm not interested in running a 200 right now.
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:45.039
And um like I I look around at the the scene and like there might be a course eventually that I'm that I'm hyped on and the time in life is right.
00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:56.000
But yeah, I I said that because I like I do think that if you are gonna run your mouth in that way and someone calls you out on it, it's kind of like, all right, well, you set yourself up for that.
00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.960
Like, go get it.
00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.840
Let's see this 500-mile backyard ultra dog.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:00.799
It's gonna be sick.
00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.919
Yeah, you don't want someone making an Instagram reel challenging you to Coca-Dona.
00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:12.559
Has there ever been the trail running equivalent of like the Alexander Hamilton Aaron Bird duel?
00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.759
Has someone's honor ever been called into question?
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:25.200
Like a full head-to-head, like like name the place, name the time.
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:26.159
Yeah.
00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:26.960
Good.
00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.080
We might get into that.
00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:28.480
Yeah.
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:40.720
So, anyways, here, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say the question and I'm gonna play the real, but we basically have it is we have we have to address this debate question, which is are elite trailrunners boring?
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.039
And I'm gonna play the context here.
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.200
Elites are boring.
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.799
I'm not inspired by elites in the slightest bit.
00:13:48.879 --> 00:14:01.120
And I think it's because there's this like fragile mentality of elites where they pour so much into their craft and trade that they can only accept celebration for the time and accomplishment that they received.
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.840
And anything less than that is kind of an insult.
00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:04.960
And let me explain that.
00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:06.559
Elites aren't great storytellers.
00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:16.080
Like they're they're I believe they're interesting, but for whatever reason, I don't know if it's insecurity or they're they're just so compartmentalized, they don't share interesting stories anymore.
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:25.519
Like they they only want to get on podcasts and talk about their training and how they're you know able to accomplish such you know elite, godly results.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:36.639
But yet you have somebody like, let's say, Max Jolliffe, right, who has incredibly uh immense talent and and does things that are wildly impressive, you know, to the rest of us amateurs as well.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:43.679
But he's not talent-wise there with the tip of the spear in the elites, but he resonates because he tells stories, he lets people in.
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:49.200
He almost gets judged, right, by these elites or gatekeepers and say he's not worthy of this attention.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.799
Why is he getting more attention than me?
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.279
He's not capable of running as fast as me.
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.519
And it's like, yeah, you're telling on yourself.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:04.559
Like it's it's not about how fast you're running, it's about how relatable you are and how I have a question.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:11.679
Do elite do elites talk shit about Max Jolliff being like he doesn't deserve this much attention?
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:13.600
Has anyone I've never heard anyone say that.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.720
I mean, I'm not elite.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:21.039
I've taught I have I'm friends with some runners that are pre-elite, and he's never come up in their com in conversations.
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:29.519
I have never heard yeah, I have never heard Max Jolliffe's value to the sport come under fire from elites.
00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:31.279
That's the first time I'm hearing that.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.080
Yeah, Max also, I mean, yeah, he's super fast, right?
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.960
Just ran like a 235, 234 marathon.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.840
Like um He's a faster media guy than me.
00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:45.200
I my follow-up question was are elites asking for more credit or attention than they get?
00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:51.360
Like, I I I don't know who was speaking there or where that's necessarily coming from.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:16:08.159
The gist that I was pulling from it was like I think it's okay for uh elites, say a Jim Walmsley, to show some frustration that half of the ultrarunning community thinks David Goggins might be the best ultrarunner ever.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:22.080
And like the just like the the imbalance there of like there's there's you know, a group of influencers, storytellers, they've written books, they've like talking about their life's journey through running.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:31.360
And there is a pretty significant misconception that like David Goggins is the best ultra runner ever.
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.080
Um, right.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:39.200
And like if if that's the point he's getting at, like, I don't think that's necessarily elite to asking for more credit or attention.
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:49.519
Um I think that's just like, hey, like no stress or you know, uh like saying anything bad on on David Goggins' name.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.240
The guy is certainly incredibly influential, right?
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.440
But like he he's not the fastest ultrarunner, right?
00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:01.039
Like um so that that's kind of what I was parsing out in in that little bit there.
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:03.519
But like, yeah, Max Joloff's a great storyteller.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:09.119
I also like anytime there's anything on Courtney or Killian, like I watch it pretty much immediately.
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.519
I think Killian's an amazing storyteller.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:17.680
Um, he he often gets earmarked as like, oh, but he's the exception.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:18.559
Right?
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.880
Like, I think Killian, you know, can run all distances.
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.759
And then whenever people are like, well, who's like the biggest ultra trail runner influencer?
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:33.599
Like, and it comes back to Killian, people are like, well, actually, yeah, he is like super influential and he does a good job with all these things.
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:35.359
So maybe he is an exception there.
00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:37.039
What do you guys think about that?
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:43.200
Yeah, I guess my like what does it even mean to be boring?
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:59.920
I mean, yeah, Finn, the real that you shared with us, said like talking about training and like putting all your chips, you know, out there, like laying them all out there for one particular race, or your career, your life as a professional trail runner is boring.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:02.079
I don't think that's boring.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:15.759
Like I've always loved the like following the very tippy top of all sports to see what sacrifices these athletes make in order to become like I think that's beautiful.
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.880
Like I love like for like it's also scary though.
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:20.640
Like that's my reality check a lot.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:25.599
Like I go back to some of like things Jack Kenzel has said and be like, Am I grounded?
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:35.680
Am I still like like, you know, as as someone who's like fully given themselves to like this pursuit of excellence and being the very best, like all power to him.
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.319
Like that's just not the path I'm trying to choose.
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:52.640
Um and like so when I when I hear the examples of I mean, look at Jack Kenzel's race logs, like or training logs, they were always public in his in his Instagram, but Killians are published each year as well.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:00.880
And I'm like, yeah, there are 22 hours a week where I'm choosing to do other things other than train for ultrarunning compared to these guys.
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.359
Yeah, and like I don't know.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.079
I just I don't think that's I just don't think that's boring.
00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.319
The the counterpart, like, are you choosing to tell your story?
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:20.880
And like I actively choose not to like tell my life story through videos or long form or content or short form content, really.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:29.839
Like there's certain things that I'm pretty happy to just keep keep within my own home and within my own family and like friend groups and stuff.
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.519
And I don't think that that makes someone necessarily like boring or is a problem with elites.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:44.559
There's some elites who share their stories and there's some regular runners who share their stories and like more power to folks for making that decision one way or another.
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:50.480
I'm not gonna like poo-poo someone for not opening up more and talking about their trauma.
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.319
Um Yeah.
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.359
No, I agree.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:54.640
That's that's a decision.
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.480
And if you choose to make that, that's great.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:01.440
But like whoever that guy talking was, I'm choosing not to let him in, and I'm fine with that.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:16.000
I think another thing too is like the um like if if we're talking about athletes that have sponsors, you know, like they're running professionally, I feel like it should be a little bit too on the brands to like figure out how to properly position this athlete.
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:28.000
Like, if they can like if that if like you should like on should know who Jeff Colt is, and they're like, oh, we have this idea, and we're like, that's a perfect Jeff thing.
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.240
We should work with Jeff on that.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:43.119
Not like we have this, you know, we have this documentary that we're gonna make, and it's gonna be Jeff talking about something that you don't want to talk about for 45 minutes, and then we're gonna put this whole training montage over.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:54.000
It's like I think brands could also do a little bit better job at positioning their athletes uh in a way that uses them for the correct style of content.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.920
Well, I mean, that also might be the correct style of content for athletes, right?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.559
And like you've got athletes, you've got influencers.
00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.119
Brands are out there storyboarding and trying to find, like, oh, did you hear about so-and-so?
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:06.480
This would be an amazing story.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.799
I hear they're a huge fan of on.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.640
Like, we should see if we can work in a story with them.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:14.640
Excuse me.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:24.000
Um I feel like a lot of the content pieces that you see come out around professional athletes are like, I think of Tyler Andrews, you know, uh, and his like summit attempts.
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.720
It's like, yeah, that's a Herculean feat.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:32.079
Makes sense for La Sportiva to try to put money into documenting him summoning Everest.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.000
That's like super cool.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:49.680
Is that a you know, think piece on Tyler Andrews, the up and comer who's uh never quite been in the spotlight in the way that he should be, and you know, ran D three instead of D one and he's always like right there with the best.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:50.720
But I don't know.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:54.079
It's like that's Tyler Andrews trying to run a fucking Everest.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:55.359
Excuse my language.
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:11.680
Um I think the uh Like as someone who's uh works with a brand, like our athletes, we're showcasing their accomplishments, we're showcasing um when they ski really, really well.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:22.559
Stories about people with messed up feet who find success through our product, we're showcasing their story of like, this is how I got messed up feet, and this is why this product has helped me.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:24.319
And like, this is my story.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:28.400
And those stories have way more substance to them because they're meant to be more relatable.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:29.200
I don't know.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.440
Our athletes always meant to be relatable.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:39.440
Like, I think the the this conversation from the get-go is like, you know, he resonates more with the 99% of the runners instead of the 1% of the elite.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:41.519
Like, that's fine.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.759
That's the aspirational group that like it's kind of hard to relate to that.
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:51.200
Uh what's relatable is like getting up every day and going and doing the damn thing.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:23:00.160
But I can't relate to running 64 and the half marathon, and I have to, you know, line up and raise that guy at some point.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.640
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00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.559
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00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.160
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00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:46.559
Personally, I am going to be placing an order for their AFO five-inch middle shorts and their run all-day tease.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.240
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00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:59.039
Um, yeah, I'll be racing all summer in a lot of their product, their half-tights, those shirts, they're versatile, and they're great even beyond the trails.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:01.759
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00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:04.799
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00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:05.519
All right.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.519
I've got I've got two points to make.
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:12.480
I'll make them consecutively and then maybe get your your uh your takes on them.
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:14.640
I pr I like the debate question.
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.440
I think Robin, an interesting conversation right now because of it.
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:26.319
My first thought is I do think it's fair to say that there has been at least somewhat of a tension between elites and influencers over the years in our sport.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:31.119
The example that I go to is way back in 2006, 7, 8.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:37.839
If you go to all of the outside mag archives, you'll see a very public feud between Scott Jurik and Dean Carnassus.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:49.200
And basically, Scott Jurik goes on the record attacking Dean and being frustrated that his profession in the sport is better compensated than his, than, than Scott's.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.720
Like Scott is out there winning Western states six times in a row.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.720
He is at the peak of his powers, he's beating everyone that matters in the sport.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.440
And yet, you know, Dean is playing in that era the influencer role and has an embarrassment of riches, relatively speaking.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:12.319
And I do think that that has played itself out in other cases between 07 and now.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.480
So I do think it's fair to acknowledge that.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.599
Actually, I'll leave it there.
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:16.640
What do you guys think about that?
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:23.039
I mean, it's crazy to think about that before like the Instagram self-promotion kind of like era.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:23.759
Yeah.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.160
Yeah.
00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.079
That was like in the form of books.
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Which like, and like when I was in high school.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:31.119
Cave drawings.
00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:31.519
Yeah.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.400
Like the hieroglyphics, I I read about Dean Carnasis when I was in high school.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:38.319
I didn't read about Scott.
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.880
And as far as I was concerned, Dean was the only person humanly capable of running 100 miles plus.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:49.680
Everyone else would die because he was doing relay races by himself.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:26:00.720
So like, I I could see where Scott's frustrations are coming from because Yeah, like people like me are like, oh, it's it's Dean and nobody else.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:08.880
Um I'm I'm curious though, if we were talking it back in a time when one was making a livable wage and one was not.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:15.200
Whereas today there's more people on both sides of the ball that are making livable wages.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:28.640
I mean, there's still lots of people that aren't, but there's at least people running for you know competitive results and influencers that are both getting paid.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:43.759
The other point that I was gonna make is I actually think that if we took two columns in one column was pros, one was influencers, I think in a lot of cases I'm actually taking the pro as more entertaining and interesting than the influencer.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:55.119
Like if we're taking the the two like the two categories, like the best of the best, like I personally think that if we had a competition, the most interesting, entertaining athlete in our sport is a pro, and it's David Roche.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:01.440
He's he's the most entertaining, the most polarizing, and he's elite.
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:02.720
And he so he's a pro.
00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:06.160
Like he's he goes, you put him for sure, I put him for sure in the pro category.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:06.720
Definitely.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.279
I think he would put himself in the pro category.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.079
Right?
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:11.039
He better.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.720
Actually, he's pretty humble.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:13.920
You never know.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.359
So I think he I think he takes I think he takes the cake.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:23.119
And then I think people like Jim Walmsley are really interesting, Rachel Entrickin, Molly Seidel, Scott Jurik.
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:27.359
Every time we have Scott on the pod, he is the same person in 25 that he was in 07.
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.200
Like he's willing to talk about anything.
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.519
So maybe, maybe to me, the answer here is like I think there's a bunch of elites that are interesting.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.559
Maybe, maybe this commentator is just saying like they're not interesting at scale.
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.319
And if you took it in those terms, but I I don't know.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.720
Like I interview these people, I I'm at least I'm interested.
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.799
I'm I'm maybe not asking the best questions, but I'm I've I'm interested in their stories from what they're talking about.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:49.599
I think that's what it is.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:51.039
You are asking the best questions.
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:59.440
You bring the interesting out of maybe what people believe to be non-interesting people in the first place.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.680
And that is the beauty of the single track podcast.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.480
I didn't I promise I did not mean to cue that up.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:08.960
Thank you, Brett.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:09.440
Thank you so much.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.119
Shouts to the single track pod.
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.319
Thanks so much.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:14.319
What a good plug right there.
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:15.519
Like and subscribe.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.359
Um, I think I think you brought up a good point.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:23.359
One of the reasons, like I yeah, I seek out Jim is he's like he is reserved, right?
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:26.319
He's not putting everything out there for the world to see.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:37.519
And like I think the times we do get uh little snippets or insights into his world, into how he's thinking about things, it's really enlightening.
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:45.359
Um, you know, the three of us getting to sit down with Jim before Western States this last year and like hear about that was an amazing conversation.
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:46.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:47.519
Like I I'm with you.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:52.720
I think they um I think that a lot of elites are really interesting.
00:28:52.880 --> 00:29:05.599
I also will go ahead and say, like, I'm very grateful that it is not in my contract to do a bunch of social media stuff and to like do a bunch of reels and storytelling because like I don't have time for it.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:12.880
Um so like if that's something we're expecting of elites, that's like you know, yeah, I don't know.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:18.720
It's it's my goal is to focus on running and try to do it really well.
00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:36.799
Um I like getting to you know riff with you guys from time to time, but uh like there are different contracts that focus more on posts and like how you're storytelling around the new drop of the cloud monster hyper light spray.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:39.039
And like that's not being asked of me.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:39.680
Yeah.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:41.920
Oh, I just thought that was it.
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.200
Yeah, should we talk for the next hour about light spray?
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.720
No, I did get it.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:47.680
It looks cool.
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:53.039
Brett, any final thoughts from you here before we talk Snowdoni and JFK?
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.839
I mean, at the end of the day, I mean it's just all an opinion.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:01.920
Like whether I think it's interesting, whether someone else thinks it's not.
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.240
Um I that we've said this before.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:12.079
I still am in the camp of I don't think there's an oversaturation of trail content out there on the internet.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.359
I think there's plenty there could be more.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.319
There could be more content, and I would still consume it all.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.079
So like I want the the interesting people to make stuff, I want the boring people to make stuff, and I will decide whether I think it's interesting or not.
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:38.799
But I don't think it's a one or the other, like black or white, of like elite runners are boring, non-elite runners are not boring.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.680
I do think brands give influencers some pretty unreal opportunities.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:48.400
And like, you know, there were a bunch of influencers invited to the Olympics.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:57.839
Like you didn't see uh, I'm thinking about like the Paris games, like you didn't see a bunch of trailrunners and stuff going to the Paris Games with their brands.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:07.759
Uh and it's just like like there's there's certain areas where things can be better communicated and put out there by by influencers.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.839
And if that means that an elite athlete's gonna focus on their race, that's cool.
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:17.359
But my final question on that do we think Shackleton was an elite?
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.400
Because like Shackleton's the best story ever.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.359
Yeah.
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.680
So is he an influencer or an elite?
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.759
Here's what I here's what I think.
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:39.839
I think life was so brutal in industrial England in the late 1800s that they were better off going on going to Antarctica and possibly suffering big time than hanging back home.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:40.559
Wow.
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:42.880
So actually they actually they copped out.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.559
They ran away.
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:46.240
It would have been they ran away.
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:48.559
They turned their back on the world when it got hard.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:50.000
Harder staying at home.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.279
No one talks about that.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:52.480
Yeah, you're right.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:54.960
Should should write a book about that.
00:31:58.400 --> 00:31:59.200
Uh okay.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:06.400
We talked about this a little bit with Alyssa Clark on this week's single track news, but apparently this news comes in pairs.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:22.880
It is registration/slash course change controversy coming from two totally different races, Ultra Trail Snowdonia, which is owned by UTMB and Iron Man over in Wales, and the JFK 50, say it ain't so, independent race in Boonesboro, Maryland.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:29.200
Jeff, maybe pointing to you, because you actually have a stake in this, you are registered for the Snow Diddy 100K.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:34.640
Uh, do you want to summarize, resummarize the issue at hand here, and I can talk about JFK?
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:36.559
Yeah.
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.480
I'll give the high level and then like the personal level.
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.920
The high level is uh Snowdonia sells out early.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.599
It sold out in like October or so.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.720
Um the 100K is the marquee distance at that race.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:55.039
That 100K um has like something like 18 or 19,000 feet of climbing in it.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:59.039
Uh, it's like meant to be pretty brutal and grueling.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:11.200
It's been on my radar since like living in the White Mountains and people kind of sharing like, yeah, this Snowdia region like is reminiscent of New Hampshire's White Mountains, just like without trees.
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:20.000
Um and so my friend Peter Howe wanted to go over, I think, in like 2017, and I like dog eared it as like Snowdonia would be really cool.
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:43.119
Um I heard some rumors that like maybe the race might not happen, like it was unclear what was going on, like hearing just some like, you know, insider talk, and then uh they ended up releasing the course, and the course was changed dramatically from the previous year's course and what was published at time of registration.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:48.400
Uh, it now has 2,000 meters less elevation, almost all in the back 40 kilometers.
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.119
So the first 60K is still quite mountainous.
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:56.079
The final 40K is like pretty flat and fast.
00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:11.280
Um and yeah, uh, I guess to add insult to injury, right before the courses were published, they actually opened more spots in terms of entries for 100k and they sold more bibs and then released it.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:16.480
So, like anyone who didn't get in in October was like, oh my gosh, I might now have the opportunity to get in.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.519
Gets in, sees that it's actually a different course.
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:27.199
Um personally, like I was trying to do mountainous races this year.
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:32.960
So I've got Chianti 74K, that's like 10,000 feet of climbing or so next week.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:37.760
Um, then it would be Snowdia, then San Juan Solstice, and then High Lonesome.
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:49.840
Um, and part of that plan was each one is I think the final effort ends up being strength building, then more like muscle breakdown, muscle damage.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:54.880
Um, if I was doing a fast 50K or a fast 100K in there, I think it would be a little different.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:11.599
This change to Snowdonia's back half now kind of puts me in this like, hmm, I'm not sure about recovery for that four weeks later for San Juan Solstice and doing another super mountainous, uh, mountainous run.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.159
Um, as of right now, like all my travels booked, my Airbnb's booked.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:17.679
I'm going with my college roommate.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:24.079
We're gonna see a um, you know, we're gonna see a football match the weekend before.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:26.960
Like we're we've been really excited about this trip.
00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:32.880
Tom Evans has also signed up for that 100k, and there is no person I want to race more in this world than Tom Evans.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:34.719
So, like that's your dream matchup.
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:35.840
That's my dream matchup.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:40.480
I wanted it hard rock, and I didn't get into hard rock, but like I want to race Tom.
00:35:40.719 --> 00:36:05.920
Like, um so whether it's a little flatter or a little steeper, like I'm gonna try to change my training and plans accordingly, but I do think it's likely like it sounds like it's not as scenic or beautiful or extreme of a race, and um I likely will have to make a decision more of an audible around San Juan Solstice based on recovery from uh Snowdonia.
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.880
But yeah, definitely a bummer.
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:20.639
Like the this is all coming, like I I probably have eight thousand, seven thousand dollars or so like into all of this travel and stuff.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:25.440
But like I have a sponsor that's covering that, and that's I'm super freaking fortunate for that.
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:38.159
Like if you know, like I think back to like 2019 going to CCC and paying my own way there and stuff, like if that had happened at that race and like actually we're not gonna do this course, I would have been ripshit.
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:39.199
Yeah.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:43.360
I'm still I'm still you know puckered.
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.559
Finn, can you give us a breakdown for JFK?
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.239
Should I do you want me to give you the UTMB perspective on synodony first?
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:54.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.440
Okay.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:57.039
And then we'll talk JFK.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.519
Okay.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:08.000
So I had a phone call with Florian at UTMB earlier today because I do think the more we can just like incorporate both sides into it just so that we have all the facts, the better.
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.400
And basically the backdrop here is this event used to be owned by a local company called Apex Running.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.480
Four years ago, UTMB acquired it.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.639
They've run it now for four years.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.840
Again, this is all Florian's perspective.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:29.519
Historically, both when it was under UTMB jurisdiction and Apex Running, all of the permits operated under oral commitments.
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.639
It wasn't written like you would see here in the US.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:40.480
And so they've just sort of like taken the local land trusts and private landowners at their words going into each year.
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:43.679
They open up registration back in July.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.679
In October, they have a meeting with all the local stakeholders.
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:59.280
And the local stakeholders basically tell them look, this year you're going to need to reduce fields in both the 100 mile and 100K from 900 to 1,000, and each of those down to 300 each.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.599
So about 600 runners across those two distances.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:03.679
And they're like, okay, so they do that.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:11.039
And because of that, you see a huge wait list form, a huge buildup of people that want to run but can't get in because it's just a lower field this year.
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:18.719
All of a sudden, a week or two ago, again, according to UTMB, they have another meeting with the local leaders, land trusts, et cetera.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:21.360
And they basically tell them, we told you 600 earlier.
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:22.800
It's actually going to be 300.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.719
So use that number how you will.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:34.079
And what UTMB decided to do was maintain the 300-person field for the 100 mile and then make changes to the 100K.
00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.199
So that course changed, the 100 mile stayed the same.
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.000
And because they changed the course, it opened up more permitting opportunity.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:49.519
And all the people that were stacked on that wait list from when registration opened in July, they were allowed to come in.
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.599
And basically U Tim B saw that as an opportunity.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:57.039
I talked with Florian about this and I was like, look, I'm a fellow race director.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:08.159
Do you see issue in like fundamentally changing a course and then not offering runners who signed up based on something that was advertised differently the chance to refund or defer whatever?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.280
And he basically said to me, like, we don't see it that way.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:14.719
All of these trail races, it's like inherent to the nature of trail running.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.760
It's subject to changes.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:16.960
That's just the reality.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.920
And we promise to provide a great experience based on the revised course.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:29.280
So they, I don't think that they agree that you know there should be an opportunity to like, you know, refund these runners.
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.280
Like you just have to kind of take it.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:42.320
It it does still seem a little shady, though, that they're like knowing the course is going to change, but then like clear the wait list and then announce it to everyone.
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:51.199
Like you'd think it would have been like an email that goes out to all the waitlisted people being like, you're about to get off the wait list, the course is going to change.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.920
Do you want to defer to a future year, take your refund, blah, blah, blah.
00:39:56.159 --> 00:39:57.039
I agree.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:04.400
But I guess that then comes down to just like ethics of a business and how they decide to run.
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.800
Because I imagine the ethics of business.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:07.920
The ethics of business.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.360
That's what this podcast is all about.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:10.719
Finn, I know you love that stuff.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.480
Business ethics.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:18.559
Um, I I think just saying that before opening up those spots would have been the right move.
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:20.079
Um, personally.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.719
I think transparency, like clear is always kind.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.599
And it's like, hey, we're opening up more spots.
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:27.039
This is the reason why.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:31.360
If you want to be off the wait list and register, you can.
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:31.840
Yeah.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:41.440
Um and I bet even if you gave that option, like say a refund, like if you're already entered into the race and it's like, we're changing this is a big massive course change.
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:43.440
We understand it might not be what you registered for.
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:46.159
You can, you know, we can refund you.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:50.400
Clearly, we'll not give you your money back, but we'll give you like UTMB dollars.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:50.880
Yeah.
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:51.599
Um, you know.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:57.039
Yeah, UTMB credit, or even the option to bump down to the 50K, which is still super rowdy.
00:40:57.199 --> 00:40:57.360
Yeah.
00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:58.639
I bet they still sell it out.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.960
I bet they still sell it out just with different people.
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:04.719
Yeah.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:18.559
Um, and and then they don't look nearly as bad because yeah, it it does definitely feel a bit like it feels a little bit icky the way that this all played out for sure.
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:25.119
Yeah, so I was, I was honestly, I'll be, I was shooketh that there's no plan for refunds.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:45.199
Um, I know in in my position as a race director, if if the rug was pulled out under us for a section of the Twisted Fork course or the Buffalo Run course, whatever, and it radically altered things and took away, for example, 33% of the vert on the 68k course, the first thing I would do is I would send an email to the runners and be like, look, like this is a fundamental change.
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.519
If you want to refund or defer, I will not fault you.
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.320
Go ahead and take it.
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.159
That just seems like good business.
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:51.039
Yeah.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.079
I I don't know.
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:54.480
For the long term, that's how it seems.
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:59.039
Maybe, maybe you rely more on returning customers than UTMB does.
00:41:59.119 --> 00:41:59.519
I don't know.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:13.119
Maybe they're in the market of like, yeah, we can we can afford to just let all these people be one and done and then move on to the next crop of people that see, you know, an Instagram reel about this race and decide they want to go do it.
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.719
Um I don't know.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:29.760
But uh yeah, that is a bummer, especially like like from your standpoint too, Jeff, of like it, it changes, it kind of alters the next bit of your racing season because of the physical demands of the last uh like 40k.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.599
You say 40k or 40 miles?
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:32.480
40k.
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:33.679
But it is funny.
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:36.480
It's like, oh, if it was harder, then it would have less damage on me.
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:42.960
But because it's flatter, it's gonna have more damage on me, which is probably gonna impact me more, which like there's a ton of truth to.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:44.559
I'll say this.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:43:01.199
I I think I uh as a fellow event director, it it I can I feel UTMB's pain being told back in the fall that they were gonna get this permit, and then they kind of hand shook on it, and then at this hour, two months before the race, they are told something totally different and they have to make this change.
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:02.400
So that's a bummer.
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:03.039
That is a bummer.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:04.800
I wonder that why.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:05.920
I don't know.
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:14.000
Why now all of a sudden there's pushback to like did the fields grow a ton from four years ago to now, or have they been about this size?
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:19.119
Aaron Powell Apparently, Flooring's saying they've been trying to increase the fields by 100 to 200 each year.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:24.320
Aaron Powell So maybe they're just going back to like 2019 sizes?
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:25.039
Aaron Powell Maybe.
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:31.840
And then I've also heard that there's been difficulty with aid stations in some of the affected regions in the past, like getting supplies out there, staffing, et cetera.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:34.719
So I think there's it's complicated.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:40.559
Um there's definitely a sweet spot always for like race capacity for some of these races.
00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:51.039
Where it's like like, you know, like uh like the like pine to palm hundred uh RIP pine to palm, they could have had 500 runners like permitted for it.
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:59.360
But like from a aid from an aid station crew logistics standpoint, no, you just don't do that because it would be a nightmare.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:03.920
Um I was interesting back to Bandera twenty nineteen.
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:12.159
The race director, Chris McWaters, had to literally change the entire Oh, I think I ran that one course.
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:14.400
Um at the Christian camp.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:15.039
Yeah.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:20.480
To the week before uh to um yeah, Camp Eagle.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.800
Like it was like a hundred miles away.
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:28.239
It was not it was a low anywhere, it wasn't close to Hill Country State Park type deal.
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:33.360
And I think he went about that in like a I mean it was it was a very real issue.
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:37.360
I don't remember honestly if it was like horses or flooding.
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.079
Flooding at the end of the main parking lot area was just underwater.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:42.639
Yeah.
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:49.280
Um but for them to pull that off and like move that whole race in literally like a a week's time was a was a wild thing.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:55.119
And like I had chosen that race because the year before I'd gone to it and I like knew the course and I was like, this is good.
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.199
I'm gonna get a golden ticket if I go back to the course I know and like try to hammer there.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.880
And like, yeah, we deal with adversity, we deal with things as they change.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.400
Like it's it's not always in the race's control.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:20.800
Um I do think in both the case of JFK and uh Snowdonia here, like transparency and like updates as it's going, even like we're trying to figure this out.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.320
Like we're gonna try to offer some options to runners.
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:34.639
Um I was looking for that email from Chris McWaters to see if he actually offered credit because I think he did, but that's a different, different scale race.
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:46.000
Uh Teos Trails puts on awesome events, but um yeah, it was another time like having a week to pivot is very different from having two months.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:56.480
But you think uh you think there'd be the same amount of like internet blowback if Snowdonia announced that the course changes added 2,000 more meters of climbing?
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:59.360
That's what happened at UTMB'd Nice last year.
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:01.360
It it they added the course got harder.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:05.199
They added vert, but uh but um no one complains about more vert, right?
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:11.280
I think that's just kind of funny how it's like you can always give Vert, but as soon as you take it away, there's a mutiny.
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.239
That is pretty yeah, true.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:17.760
Uh that Bandera year, the course got a lot harder.
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:20.079
I I think you'll appreciate this.
00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:39.360
The one email I did find from uh January 9th, 2019, so the week after Bandana, Bandera, I got third at that race, so I did not get a golden ticket, was an email that I sent to Brian Powell inquiring that if he was going to potentially need any additional on-the-ground help at Western States because I failed at my goal of getting a golden ticket.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:44.159
I didn't have another opportunity to try with my job, and I really wanted to be there.
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.320
That's I'm really good at tweeting.
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:49.119
Wait, were you on the ground doing iron far coverage?
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:50.800
No, Brian let me down soft.
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:57.039
He was like, Thanks, Jeff, but I don't need little did he know the career that you would develop.
00:46:57.519 --> 00:46:59.039
That was the turning point.
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:03.679
Okay, I'll I'll quickly summarize the JFK situation.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:14.400
Basically, for the since forever, JFK has been collecting hotel tax revenue from the county to help fund their police force and medical teams on race day.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:20.719
Last fall, the county informs JFK that revenue stream is no longer going to be available to you.
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:25.519
You have to fund that budget shortfall elsewhere via race registration increases, whatever.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.519
So they know this information six months before race registration opens March 1st.
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.840
That information is not disclosed on their website to the public.
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:44.079
And they go ahead and open race registration, they get about a thousand entries, and then a week into registration being opened, this article breaks about that news.
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:52.480
And the JFK race directing team is openly threatening to move the race from Washington County to Frederick County.
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:55.679
Totally talk about 100% altering the course.
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.000
Different course.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:12.639
So another example, albeit from an independent race, not a corporate race, of selling runners on a his a very historic course and then calling that entirely into question shortly after the fact.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:19.199
So it must be a very large sum of money where they couldn't add it to like race entry fees.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:20.400
It's$30,000.
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:21.199
It's$30,000.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:29.840
I think I think it would which which they have a thousand entries so far, it would come out to like a$30 increase per runner if they wanted to fund it that way.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:31.039
They could have done it.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:32.719
Or they could eat the margin.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.440
A lot of companies did that with tariffs, right?
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:41.280
Put 7% on the consumer and 8% on the company or whatnot.
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:50.400
Um I think the the funny thing about this whole hotel tax revenue thing is like it was always planned to go away.
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.800
It was like just to help a company get its foothold in the region.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.320
You know, this article that you shared, Finn, I was like reading through and it's like it's pretty clear.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:07.199
It was like, hey, this was like this is a gesture to help businesses get established, and like JFK is established.
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:08.480
It seems like it helped them.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:16.480
Uh, you know, it's something that they've had at their back for as many years as they've been, you know, organizing the event or whatnot.
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:25.599
Um so is this just like negligent like poor planning then of being like, oh, whoa, this is the year.
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:37.519
Maybe it it it says here this is coming from uh the we said Washington County.
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:38.559
Yeah.
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:50.880
Um but it says HRT program is intended to provide temporary assistance to help events establish long-term sustainability and fiscal year 25 represented the final year of the HRT support for the race.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:58.639
So it's like this was a known It was known it was going to happen, um and it happened.
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:01.599
So here's what I wonder.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:07.199
I wonder if JFK has ever commissioned a report that indicates their impact on tourism to the region.
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:13.519
I wonder if they know the number that they basically bring in each year on the event, and they're using that as a bargaining chip.
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:22.400
And it's like, you're asking, like we we have like we've done this, like here's the ROI of this event to the county, and we are so powerful and established, we're gonna basically threaten to go.
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:25.280
And I wonder if they expect the county to be like, okay, never mind.
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:26.480
Like we'll we'll cave.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:27.840
It's a bluff.
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.320
It's a Frederick County bluff.
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.840
Yeah.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.880
Whereas, you know, yeah, the and the county's like, you weren't so damn good.
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:40.800
They're their their response is like, we really appreciate everything you've done.
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:47.360
And like we outlined this very clearly, and this is like what we had budgeted for.
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:57.599
So And there's no um there's been no like, hey, person who registered for JFK, we might move the course to something completely different.
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:00.320
If you want a refund, we'll give you a refund.
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:07.440
Or is it with kind of like Snowden, where they have no intention of uh giving any money back to its registrants?
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:11.199
Aaron Powell Well, yeah, the and then the JFK policy on the website is no refunds, no deferrals.
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:14.079
Well, yeah, they wouldn't even give like a pregnancy deferral last year.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:14.559
No.
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.039
I mean, there was like a whole thing about that.
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.920
So this this seems more egregious than Snowdia to me.
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:35.840
I mean, that JFK course has been around for You know what's funny in all of our conversation around like times versus competition, JFK is just one of the course that like I actually think time is more relevant.
00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:38.159
Talk to me about like the courses.
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:41.280
Give me give me your top three courses where you're like time's relevant.
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:43.280
JFK and Western states are there.
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:44.719
Yeah, I agree.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:52.480
Yeah, that's like JFK has very much been a I mean it's competitive, but it's been a time trial type course as well.
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:58.000
Um I mean i uh it's largely a road race.
00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:05.199
Still an ultra marathon, but um yeah, that's a that would be a pretty big bummer.
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:22.880
Like I would be bummed because I I don't know what a lot of the reasons for why someone would sign up for JFK for me, it would be to see how I can do on that course because it's been around for so long and it's got like such a you know historied list of you know finishers where I'd wonder course.
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:28.559
That aside, it's just more like I want to see where I, you know, how I could do on that one.
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:32.079
But then if they were like, you're moving it, we're moving to somewhere else.
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:37.840
I'm like, I already don't know where in America this is because I live in southern Oregon.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:38.800
You move it somewhere else.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.920
I'm like, what did I even go there for?
00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:43.039
Come on now.
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:54.239
So we uh when we do the crowdfunding event for um the Backyard Ultra, we can just tack on it.
00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:59.199
Do you also want to contribute to the JFK$30,000 fund to keep it in Washington County?
00:52:59.519 --> 00:52:59.920
Yeah.
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:06.880
Dude, knowing Jamil Airvipa Mountain Outposts, just like snap of the fingers, it's taken care of.
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:08.639
Look at that.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:12.639
JFK prevented presented by Aravipa running.
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:13.519
Yeah.
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:17.119
This episode of the show is also brought to you by Momentous.
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Okay, so we have a new segment.
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:11.280
It's called Overreaction, Underreaction.
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.760
I'm gonna read a statement, uh, starting with you, Brett, and then we'll ultra.
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.039
So uh Brett, you first on this one, Jeff, you first on the next one.
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.400
But overreaction, underreaction, first one here.
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:27.360
Molly Seidel is immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:28.320
Brett.
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:34.000
I mean, I furiously typed on my keyboard, no.
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:36.239
Underreaction.
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:40.159
So is that is I I don't understand overreaction, underreaction.
00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:41.519
Well, think over under.
00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:44.320
The statement is quality of under.
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:48.239
Are you are you saying totally like I'm I'm over on that or I'm under on that?
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:49.199
No, I'm under.
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:50.800
Underreaction is like, of course.
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:52.159
Like I I think so.
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:53.440
Oh, okay.
00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:57.039
See, and oh an overreaction is like, oh, that's crazy.
00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:58.320
Like, come on now.
00:55:58.559 --> 00:55:58.880
Okay.
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.800
I wrote overreaction, being like, nah, no.
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:14.719
She's not immediately a 2026 Western States podium contender because she got fourth in a race when the three in front of her are also running Western states.
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:23.760
Have the three in front of her ever won footlockers or NCAAs or gotten an Olympic medal?
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:24.719
No.
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:30.639
But some of them have done some pretty good things in the trails.
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:31.440
For sure.
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:42.079
I again I know I stand by like I I think this like uh there's like, oh Molly's like new to the trails, like, no, especially in like the what is the value of Molly Seidel?
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:48.960
And I'm like, well, you need to ask, like, what is the value of someone who's been the best in the world at every level of their career?
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:49.519
Yeah.
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:54.880
I also wrote, I think she's in the conversation for the podium, but I don't think she's a lock.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:55.679
Okay.
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:56.960
Yeah.
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:05.360
Like, I think her range, like, you know, for someone uh, you know, someone like we'll use like Abby Hall, for example.
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:10.320
I think like good day, bad day are like pretty small together.
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:14.880
Molly's like good day and bad day are really far apart right now.
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:16.400
Okay.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:18.480
Like just from a you know, an experience level.
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:21.599
But it's like could Molly win Western states?
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:22.880
Absolutely.
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.239
Could Molly stop at the first aid station?
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:30.719
Could happen too.
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:35.599
Yeah, I think I think it's uh I'm in agreement with Brett on this one.
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:51.280
Um in general, I think Molly has a really, really good scaffolding and support system around her, and uh it's cool to see um how how she fared at Black Canyon.
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.760
I think Molly Sidel will be a future Western States champion.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:02.239
Um I don't think that the 2026 Western States is is a lock by any means.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:03.199
Okay.
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:07.360
I still think her micro fade at Black Canyon was the most impressive thing I saw all day.
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:08.800
It was very good.
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:15.199
I also agree with that, and that's what keeps her in the conversation for the podium for me.
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:24.800
But not not a lock, because you you can't make you can't make that mistake 25 miles into western states because it's a hundred miles and not sixty.
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:36.159
Next up, if Jen Lichter wins Western states this year, she is immediately in the highest echelon of female ultrarunners in our sport.
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:37.280
Jeff.
00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:40.719
Yeah, I'm I agree with that.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:59:00.159
I think that's uh I think the reason is like she's already incredibly dominant at the 50k and under distance for her to be able to spread that dominance to the 100k and then in sequence to the 100 mile, um not dissimilar to Hayden, not dissimilar to like Francesco in some ways.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:06.639
You know, I we haven't seen him run the hundred mile yet, but like I would I would put her immediately in that upper echelon.
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:11.679
Um I don't far too early.
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:17.280
I don't think it's gonna happen, but I also like I'm not one to bet against Jen.
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:20.400
Like she was my lock pick for Black Canyon for sure.
00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:27.840
Um yeah, I I agree, Jeff, with what you said.
00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:30.480
Um a question that I had.
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:36.960
So are we talking like it was like current day like world trail dominance rankings?
00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:38.480
Like current, current, okay.
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:39.119
Yeah, I agree.
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:44.559
If we were talking like if they all retired at the end of this year, where do they rank?
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.280
You know, I think like that's different.
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:59.039
Um but if if if Jen wins Western States this year, uh like currently, then she gets thrown straight into that echelon 100%.
01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:02.719
Brett, right back to you.
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:11.360
Crowdfunded prize person mounts will surpass event-sponsored person mounts at major trail races by 2028.
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:20.880
I think I think, well, for the mountain out for the Aero Vipa, for the Air Vipa races, I think you're right.
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:21.519
It has to.
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:22.000
It has to.
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.800
Um, but I hope they don't.
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:25.920
And here's why.
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:28.639
I hope they become more of a mutual thing.
01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:37.360
So um for Black Canyon, I forget what the amount was, but Aero Vipa matched the crowdfunded amount up to a certain dollar point.
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:41.199
I would love to set up to$5,000 if 16,000 were raised.
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:50.000
Yeah, so I would love to see like Aero Vipa match the first$5,000, Ultra match the next$5,000 because they have Terra Dower racing.
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:59.280
And they're like, yeah, we'll match the next five because we want to and like it'll get shown on the the ticker on the live stream too, that like Hoka or like you know, Ultras matching this.
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:02.320
Hoka matches the next five, Solomon matches next five.
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:10.880
Like, I want to see brands pony up the same amount that uh, you know, fans of the sport are at least one to one.
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:18.079
A bold move for ACG to just pop in there for the Hoka race and drop 15k or something like that.
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:21.519
Yeah, especially with like five minutes to go, you can still do that.
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:24.400
ACG is just like, yeah, we'll match it.
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:34.880
Um I do I think there's some like curiousness of like, all right, were there any unsponsored runners in the top on the podium?
01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:36.239
Jordan Bramblett.
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:37.519
He wasn't on the podium.
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:38.079
Molly Sidel.
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:39.280
No, but he took a ticket.
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:39.760
He took a ticket.
01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:40.800
And Molly Cyberdale, yeah.
01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:42.320
Molly's a good example, right?
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:53.039
If like Satisfy just put 10K in there, like hinting of like, you know, we like, you know, the the one unsponsored athlete, like we're keen on on working with her.
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.119
Um it's like kind of showing showing some cards there.
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:04.880
Um the like for Western states, that's like what's it gonna that's a guarantee, right?
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:06.480
Like is this gonna happen at Western States?
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:06.800
The crowd.
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:08.480
I hope it happens at Western States.
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:10.559
I like I really do hope it happens at Western States.
01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:12.480
What do you think the winner takes home?
01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:13.599
What's your number?
01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:15.039
Or way too early number.
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:16.639
What do you what does the winner take home at Western States?
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:18.719
So what was the live stream viewership last year?
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:19.840
Did it eclipse a million?
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:21.119
Can you check on YouTube really quick?
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:22.320
Like for day one stream?
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:26.480
For day one stream, because that'll help with my multiplier.
01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:32.400
But I I believe that the live stream is going to conservatively 2x this year.
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:48.159
So addressable market, and if we compare it against the stream at Black Canyon to a multiplier there, I mean if Black Canyon got 17,000 off of a understanding like you had to pay attention to the live stream to understand that this was going on.
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:54.159
So there has been as much talk about this since it happened that like more people are aware of it.
01:02:54.239 --> 01:03:01.280
I think like going forward on live streams, be that Cocodona, be that Western states, be that other races, I think more people are going to be aware of it.
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:10.880
And yeah, I told Jamil, I told Jamil, I was like, you can actually track like when AJW and Chris Warden were talking about it in those first two hours, the the pot was growing so fast.
01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:14.559
And then it kind of the talk about it tapered off and the pot kind of tapered.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:19.920
So I think if Dylan and Corinne can keep talking about it from start to finish at intervals, it'll really go.
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:24.000
I think Western States had about 5x the viewers of Black Canyon.
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:24.559
Okay.
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:25.519
Yeah.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:27.199
I was I was gonna say ballpark.
01:03:27.280 --> 01:03:40.079
I think the winner from Western States walks with uh 12k from the crowdfunded purse, but that depends on how they want to choose that purse because I would argue that Western states should trickle down to five, or maybe should it trickle down to 10 to 10.
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:42.559
Like 10 would be cool.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:46.559
Ninth place gets$100, 10th place just gets an invite back.
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:48.880
They get the entry paid.
01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:49.360
No.
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:53.119
Wait, do top 10, do you have to pay for that?
01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:53.599
Yeah.
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:54.079
Yeah.
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:56.480
If you get an invite back to next year, you have to pay for it.
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:57.039
It's not paid for.
01:03:57.199 --> 01:03:58.400
Not that I have experience, but yes.
01:03:58.639 --> 01:03:59.760
Okay, so experience.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:01.119
Okay, so that's what it should be.
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.239
Tenths should at least get their entry paid.
01:04:04.559 --> 01:04:05.039
Yeah.
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.920
Is in form of like an ultra sign-up gift card.
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:08.480
Yeah.
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:09.840
Not cash.
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:12.559
They gotta take it.
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:14.960
Um oh shoot, I lost my notes.
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.159
Um I think it's gonna be bigger.
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:24.800
I think where these crowdfunded price purse, I think where it's gonna really blow up and show off is gonna be a Cocodona this year.
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:31.119
Like, we're talking like you know, 60 hours before the winner comes in.
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:32.639
It's a good question.
01:04:32.800 --> 01:04:42.719
Because like there's a way, there's a world in which Cocodona ends up being the biggest prize purse of the year of any event, and it's like strictly crowdfunded.
01:04:43.280 --> 01:04:45.440
I think the winner, maybe this is my my take.
01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:48.320
I think the winner of Cocodona's taking home 30 G's.
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:49.119
Love it.
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:50.079
So more.
01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:50.559
Yeah.
01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:53.039
I think I think winner of Cocodon's taking home 30 grand.
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.639
Well, but I could also see the winner of Western City taking home that much as well.
01:04:57.519 --> 01:04:57.840
Okay.
01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:01.840
Like I could see it being in that$20,000 to$30,000 range.
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:08.559
Which that would be oh man, that would be something.
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:11.519
Throwing this one to you, Jeff, first.
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:20.880
In his age 38, I believe 20th season of ultra running, can Killian Journey still win both Western States and UTMB in the same season?
01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:22.320
No doubt, dog.
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:23.760
I've been saying this all year.
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:25.679
I think Killian and Jim both good.
01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:29.360
Like, I I don't even think it's uh like if I think it's a win.
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:32.079
And I know Killian's already done it, I think he'll do it again.
01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:37.280
Um I think for him, I think for him it's gonna be harder to win Western States.
01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:37.760
Okay.
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:38.800
But how about this?
01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:41.440
Okay, let's let's assume Killian wins Western.
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:48.400
He and if he wins UTMB but beats like a fresh Penn Demon or a fresh gym, do those two guys just have to retire from the sport?
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:51.360
No, but like it's just Killian.
01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:52.320
Killian just got killing.
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:57.199
Killian got stronger from his states of elevation.
01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:58.639
Like, you know, the
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:01.199
Bless that man.
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:02.000
That's what it is.
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:09.199
Bless that man for like being able to contribute himself wholeheartedly to this pursuit in excellence.
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:13.840
And like I love being a spectator to it and getting to experience it.
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:20.639
If Killian wins Western States, there's no doubt in my mind he can re like recover and win UTMB.
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:21.920
Yeah.
01:06:22.239 --> 01:06:25.599
And if he wants to do the all-time triple, recover and win grand reunion.
01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:27.280
Like, you know.
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:33.360
The there there are runners who I think uh they know what it takes to win both of those events.
01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:36.880
And that's why I put specifically Jim and Killian in this boat.
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.000
Like they know what both races calls for.
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:45.679
I actually think Jim could probably win Western States, you know, quote unquote easier than anyone else.
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:48.480
Um if he's if he's smart about it.
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:54.800
And then, you know, I think UTMB has proven to be more of a mammoth for him than states.
01:06:55.119 --> 01:06:55.440
Yeah.
01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:56.159
But I agree.
01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:59.679
This is my prediction for the year that the men's winner is going to win both.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.000
And I think that's I stand by it.
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:03.199
I like that.
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:11.679
And I was just, I'm continually like, because there's been a couple like blogs that Killian has come out with, you know, talking about Western states.
01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:27.280
And I'm amazed at how much like sleep he seems to have lost about western states last year, and how fired up he is to come back and be like, oh yeah, like I I you know, he was sick, he did he made some mistakes.
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:29.599
He's like, Oh, I got some things to iron out.
01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:33.039
Like, I'm like, and I want to fix that.
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:36.880
And I want, you know, 2026 to be the year of racing.
01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:45.760
It's like, oh man, like 2025, like woke up the beast of Killian, being like, oh, dude.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:51.840
This is not at all like Jeff McGavro closed even spread.
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:59.440
We were with Killian with 90 at 90 miles with 10 miles to go, and Killian beat Jeff by 11 minutes.
01:08:00.159 --> 01:08:03.280
Killian closed that race so hard.
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:04.000
Yeah.
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:07.280
And I think he like thought that people were gonna come back to him.
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.800
And you know, he and Jeff had been battling for 60 kilometers.
01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:12.880
So like it wasn't like Jeff came back to him.
01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:18.000
Like we we started at Greengate, you know, the four of us kind of all together.
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:23.359
Um so I I really thought he was gonna, or I think he thought he was gonna catch Chris or Caleb.
01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:32.319
And yeah, he just made a tactical error early on, and I'm sure he's looking back on it, just being like, Yep, I should have won that race.
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:33.680
I should have gone earlier.
01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:33.840
Yeah.
01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:39.359
Now I have to go back and do it again, and then win Sierras and all, and then win UTMB.
01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:42.560
I I had this reaction in 2022.
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:44.640
Killian had his best season ever.
01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:46.640
Uh, I'm pretty sure it was 2022.
01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:56.479
And I was like, this is so crazy that like, you know, 11 years after he wins Western States, he has his best season ever.
01:08:56.640 --> 01:09:00.159
And then every year since I've been like, actually, nothing's crazy.
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:04.159
I expect Killian to have his best season ever next season.
01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:07.119
He will forever be one of one.
01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:08.239
Yeah.
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:09.760
One comment from me.
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:20.800
Uh, if you look back at one of the time, so when he won the double in 2011, Western and UTMB, he from what I can tell in UTMB and Ultra Saturn raced at least nine times that year.
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:23.680
In 26, he's only racing three times.
01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:27.039
Sears and all along with Western UTMB.
01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:31.760
So that's interesting, like racing at least the 66% less or three times less.
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:34.000
He doesn't he doesn't need Rustbusters anymore.
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:34.640
No.
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:38.319
I actually I wouldn't be surprised if he does the VK at Broken Arrow.
01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:38.960
Okay.
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:40.000
Again.
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:47.760
Except I would yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he throws throws like a a VK in going into Western states.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:10:00.399
But I would just in this era where some pros are specializing, I just think it would be a really tough pill to swallow if someone beats you fresh on the second half of their double.
01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:01.439
That's tough.
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:16.239
Yeah, I mean, you're just trying to, you know, there's just you're just making excuses at that point, being like, oh, you gotta be fresh for this, you know, you're this type of athlete, that it's like Killian running's running, you know?
01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:28.159
If there were anyone that had the years and accumulative hours of training log that Killian had, I feel like they could be bummed about that.
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:29.439
But there isn't.
01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:29.840
Yeah.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Like they're like Yeah, no one's to the stage of career that Killian's at and saying that.
01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:37.840
Yeah.
01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:47.840
But isn't isn't that isn't that much again, we use the term like mileage and like isn't that many minutes played or mileage typically Eric can be a liability?
01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:51.039
It can be, but I do think experience is like the greatest.
01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:54.079
That's that's why I think Molly Sidel will win Western States.
01:10:54.159 --> 01:10:55.039
I don't think it'll be this year.
01:10:55.199 --> 01:11:00.479
I think it's experience when it comes to these hundred mile races is most everything.
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:06.239
And like once you get a grip of it and like understand a little bit more, things come more naturally.
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:17.920
You know, it it takes winning 3,500s for Jeff Browning to realize he can come back from being like five hours down and actually like respond and you know, come back to podium or whatever it is.
01:11:18.000 --> 01:11:31.359
You know, like these these phenomenal like back to life uh experiences we've seen these like really tenored uh hundred mile runners have is like because they know it.
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:37.119
They're like our bodies are so much more capable than we think they are, it's gonna respond, things will be all right.
01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:40.800
I just need to like embrace the suck for the next couple hours.
01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:42.079
Okay.
01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:43.119
I don't know.
01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:44.880
That's like and I hear you.
01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:56.159
Like, if you know, for the folks focusing on UTMB, if Killian comes back from winning Western states and beats them at UTMB, like I just think it it should be inspiring.
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:09.840
And if someone fresh beats Killian at UTMB for the win, I will not ever utter, oh well Killian was tired because he ran Western States.
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:17.119
Like, if someone beats Killian at UTMB this year, after Killian wins Western States, it's a fair fight.
01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:18.399
He is recovered.
01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:20.479
Yep.
01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:21.439
Agreed.
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:21.920
Yeah.
01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:29.680
And if anyone else, and if anyone out there says that in the comments, I'll fight them with my keyboard.
01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:30.720
I want it to happen.
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:32.399
I'm manifesting it.
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:35.920
Yeah.
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:41.359
Yeah, you've seen that uh uh what's the movie where they curve the bullets?
01:12:42.560 --> 01:12:43.840
Um The Matrix.
01:12:44.079 --> 01:12:44.479
Wanted?
01:12:44.720 --> 01:12:45.039
No.
01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:47.359
Is it called Wanted?
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:54.560
Is that no Angelina Jolie's in it and um Morgan Freeman's in it?
01:12:55.199 --> 01:13:01.119
Anyways, at the very beginning of the movie, the dude just like slaps his boss with a keyboard.
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:03.359
That was all I was thinking about.
01:13:03.680 --> 01:13:04.960
Seems like the movie you're talking about.
01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:06.000
Wanted.
01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:07.279
That's what I said.
01:13:07.520 --> 01:13:08.319
Okay, wanted.
01:13:08.479 --> 01:13:08.800
Wanted.
01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:08.960
Yeah.
01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:10.159
That's a good movie.
01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:11.199
Yeah.
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:12.079
Okay.
01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:14.720
All right, Brett, coming back to you here.
01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:15.439
All right.
01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:18.159
Golden overreaction, underreaction.
01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:19.520
This is our last one, by the way.
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:23.039
Golden ticket races are now harder to win than western states.
01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:24.399
Absolutely not.
01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:25.279
Okay.
01:13:26.399 --> 01:13:32.399
There's there's too much, there's there's still more pressure at Western states to win and perform.
01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:41.039
And like you still get the people who win the golden ticket races not winning Western states.
01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:47.439
I I think the like Finn, last year Abby did not win a golden ticket race, but she won Western States, right?
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:52.560
My my far too early pick to win Western States this year on the women's side is Anne Flower.
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:56.239
She did not win at Black Canyon.
01:13:56.960 --> 01:14:01.680
But Abby and Ann are like really well suited for the Western States course.
01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:05.359
Are they better suited for that course than Black Canyon?
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:06.800
Like, I would argue yes.
01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:13.920
Uh, I don't think that golden tickets or golden ticket races are harder to win than Western states.
01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:24.319
I would actually still go ahead and say against popular opinion, it's easier to get a golden ticket than it is to get a returning top ten to Western states.
01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:26.640
I think that's a great take.
01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:35.760
And like I it maybe it's year to year, but like maybe we should ask a lot of the people who've won golden ticket races.
01:14:37.199 --> 01:14:39.920
Was it easier winning and win and won Western states?
01:14:40.800 --> 01:14:43.439
How many people have won a golden ticket race and western states?
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:44.800
Which one was harder to win?
01:14:45.039 --> 01:14:46.640
Yeah, it's it's not that many people.
01:14:46.880 --> 01:14:52.720
And and I I go back to like, right, Tom Evans was second at Black Canyon, won Western states.
01:14:52.800 --> 01:15:00.720
That like the Western States is gonna suit some runners better than others.
01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:01.279
Yeah.
01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:07.359
Um I'm psyched to see Will Murray because I think Will Murray can win golden ticket races, and I think he could win Western States.
01:15:07.520 --> 01:15:13.600
Like, you know, did Killian, you know, I guess he's he's coming back from a top ten, but like yeah.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:36.000
The I think a lot of a lot of these like top-tier pros that didn't win bla uh, you know, a a golden ticket race, but then won Western states were also like assuming they were gonna get a ticket, and then the the A goal for the whole training block was Western States.
01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:42.560
So like I I feel like like Tom was fitter at Western States than he was at Black Canyon.
01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:58.479
Um and also Western States probably suits him as a course better than Black Canyon, so it's like a compounding level of things, but uh I still think it's harder to win Western States, um, even courses aside, just the pressure.
01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:06.880
This was uh this this prompt was generated in our text thread yesterday.
01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:27.680
Basically, it's it's it's it's it's a it's a matchup wish list, either anticipated, like it's on paper already for this year, and you're looking forward to just watching it as a as fan as a fan of the sport, or like if you could create a matchup based on active pro old runners out there, like so you can go in either directions.
01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:32.800
Brett, who's your idealized matchup for 26?
01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:41.840
I mean, I would say it's it it's a it exists, um and it's it's Katie versus Courtney at Hard Rock.
01:16:42.960 --> 01:16:49.520
Like that's been one that I've thought about for ever since the first year I commentated at Hard Rock.
01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:55.840
Um, because like I've gotten to see Courtney win it in person, and I've gotten to see Katie win it in person.
01:16:56.720 --> 01:17:03.520
And you know, them like flip-flopping course records, they're both still running really well.
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:08.319
It's like that sort of and and then they both end up on the star list.
01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:13.439
It's like, man, that sort of opportunity just doesn't happen very often.
01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:17.760
So that's like that's one of the really big ones.
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:19.439
Um I like it.
01:17:19.680 --> 01:17:20.319
Yeah.
01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:26.800
I really wish I we'd gotten to see Jen Lichter and Katie at Worlds in the 50 mile.
01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:29.199
I think that would have been really good.
01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:30.800
I think that would have been so sweet.
01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:38.960
Katie had an incredibly dominant performance, but I think we all we all felt like Jen was very strong uh going into that one and is still very strong.
01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:40.880
Bum da bum she missed that.
01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:54.239
Um yeah, I I think Katie at Western States with this year's field and Ann Flower in that race and Jen Lichter in that race, and uh like I I think it would be a better matchup.
01:17:54.399 --> 01:17:58.640
I think we all waited uh and have been waiting for the Katie Courtney rematch.
01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:03.760
Um and like Courtney brews me wrong and she'll continue to prove me wrong.
01:18:04.000 --> 01:18:17.520
But like I'll say, like I I think right now I I'm more confident in Katie winning hard rock than uh Katie lining up to that Western States field and having having a easy win.
01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:26.159
Finn, what course would you like to see Katie and Courtney race against each other on the most?
01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:30.159
That's a fantastic question.
01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:31.920
I think probably hard rock.
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:33.359
Yeah, hard rock for those two.
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:40.560
Yeah, I think I think I think I think it's the best meeting place to like equalize things at the respective stages of their careers.
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:45.279
I like I like the I like the hard rock course as a matchup.
01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:56.960
It also feels um like it almost feels like there's more spotlight on it because it's like I mean like Tara Dower is definitely a big wild card in that field as well.
01:18:57.359 --> 01:18:59.359
But kind of because it's like a one-on-one race.
01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:04.560
Yeah, it's that Charlie Lawrence effect sort of thing.
01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:18.079
Um the the elevation factor at Hard Rock is like, I just know talking to Kenny and German last year, you know, the altitude like was super hard to adjust to.
01:19:18.159 --> 01:19:20.399
Uh and Courtney just lives at that altitude.
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.600
So um, you know, that might be uh lending a favor in in her direction there.
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:36.800
And you know, I I think if you were to look at Western States, Grand Raid, UTMB, and Hard Rock, like is Hard Rock the the race where it'll be closest?
01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:38.239
I think the answer is yeah.
01:19:38.399 --> 01:19:41.520
I think that's where like they're maybe the most even.
01:19:42.720 --> 01:19:43.039
Okay.
01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:47.119
This one, I feel like this matchup doesn't get talked up enough.
01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:47.920
Or maybe it doesn't.
01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:51.520
I'm not paying attention, but I want to see Katie and Ruth.
01:19:51.920 --> 01:19:54.079
And I want to see a m a rematch at UTMB.
01:19:54.159 --> 01:19:57.840
So obviously Katie took the win there in 24, beat Ruth.
01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:00.960
I think it was like 35, 40 minutes.
01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:08.239
Uh, if you go way back in their careers, I think Ruth has Katie at Zagama, and I think it was Tomplier maybe.
01:20:08.399 --> 01:20:09.279
But I I don't know.
01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:17.520
I I feel like they're yeah, I don't know what you guys think, but that matchup in that matchup almost intrigues me more right now than Katie versus Courtney.
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:32.479
That's I mean, that is a great one because you know that year Katie was I think what was it, her knee was starting to go on that final descent, and Ruth went out way too conservative and was just raging the second half, especially the last 50k.
01:20:32.880 --> 01:20:38.079
Um, so it's like I'm sure Ruth wanted to do over there, and then when she got it, she won.
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:49.600
Um yeah, that that would be a very dynamic matchup as well, especially because like it seems like like Ruth's really finding the like the long mountain legs right now.
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:50.640
Yeah.
01:20:50.960 --> 01:21:03.840
I think on the uh on the men's side, I think seeing a showdown between Francesco, Killian, and Jim at Western States would be like fascinating.
01:21:04.720 --> 01:21:06.720
And last year's Western States was amazing.
01:21:06.880 --> 01:21:12.239
I really don't want anyone to try to do this whole unbreakable two thing again and and jinx it.
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:27.039
But uh the like the men's field is shaping up to be incredibly strong, and that's runners like Hans Troyer proving how like mature they've gotten and how much stronger he is.
01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:37.199
Um you know, if Francesco didn't dislocate his shoulder, hurt himself uh at Black Canyon, like does he actually beat Hans?
01:21:37.359 --> 01:21:39.359
Like, yeah, maybe hard saying.
01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:55.039
Like these are the what-ifs of uh the early days of long-run archives, but yeah, Francesco and Jim and Killian all at Western States would be a real treat.
01:21:55.279 --> 01:22:03.119
Um throw throw a couple other guys in there, like Hayden and Hans and Jeff McGavro and Will Murray.
01:22:03.279 --> 01:22:04.000
Will Murray?
01:22:04.079 --> 01:22:04.640
Yeah, dude.
01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:05.199
Oh man.
01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:16.720
As an aside, uh, I highly recommend everyone go watch Francesco's latest vlog on his YouTube channel, which provides a really interesting backstory on just how he trains, philosophy, all that stuff.
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:21.439
One of the takeaways, he's had the same coach since the Italian equivalent of high school.
01:22:21.840 --> 01:22:27.760
That's wild to have someone be able to like successfully coach you through so many different events.
01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:28.800
It's almost 20 years.
01:22:32.159 --> 01:22:33.920
And then training for 100 miles.
01:22:34.239 --> 01:22:34.479
Yeah.
01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:44.079
And and the coach, I mean, one of the there's many quotes in the vlog, but one of the uh comments that the coach has is like, Francesco's VO2 Max is 70.
01:22:44.239 --> 01:22:50.720
He has uh basically not an elite VO2 Max, but he is elite at using like the highest fraction of it possible.
01:22:51.039 --> 01:22:57.439
That's how I knew it was his coach for a long time, because his coach was just like, Oh yeah, on paper he's not very good.
01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:00.239
But he's very good.
01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:02.000
Totally.
01:23:02.239 --> 01:23:10.720
But yeah, he's like but basically the coach like Francesco outperforms people that are better than him because he is a more strategic worker, you know?
01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:11.600
Yeah.
01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:12.960
Really cool.
01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:14.560
That's super cool.
01:23:14.880 --> 01:23:20.159
So I feel like we have time either for a mystery topic, a content find.
01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:22.239
I don't know, what do you guys want to do?
01:23:22.800 --> 01:23:30.159
I got a I guess as a content finding a mystery or slash best thing I found on the internet this week.
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:35.359
And it was because, Finn, it was because you ran the LA Marathon that I got to watch this.
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:48.880
So I found on, you know, like NBC four, NBC five, whatever the LA news station was, they were putting on um the LA Marathon, and it was available for free to watch on the LA Marathon website, which was awesome.
01:23:49.600 --> 01:23:51.279
So I just started watching the race.
01:23:51.439 --> 01:23:53.359
I mean, I didn't see I didn't see you.
01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:58.159
I was watching your tracker, but then I was like, well, I might as well just watch the marathon since it's here.
01:23:58.319 --> 01:24:01.680
And the men's finish was insane.
01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:07.680
Um, I forget the name of the guy who ended up getting second, but he was off the front early.
01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:10.800
And I think at halfway he was like four minutes up.
01:24:11.119 --> 01:24:14.000
Because other thing that the LA Marathon did that was really cool.
01:24:14.079 --> 01:24:17.520
So they staggered the men's and women's starts by a certain amount of time.
01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:20.159
I forget exactly what it was, but it was like staggered.
01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:22.159
It was well, it was staggered.
01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:22.880
Yeah, it was deep.
01:24:23.119 --> 01:24:34.079
I don't know if it was the differentials in the course records or what, but it was staggered in a way where it gave equal opportunity for the first person to cross the finish line, man or woman got an extra$10,000 bonus.
01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:38.399
So it insid it said it incentivized going out like pretty recklessly.
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:43.600
And on the women's and the men's side, one person from each field did that.
01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:46.239
And it made for these like massive fades.
01:24:46.399 --> 01:25:00.159
And um on the men's side, the the the guy who was leading all day, he got outleaned at the finish line and he lost by 0.1 to Nathan Martin.
01:25:00.319 --> 01:25:20.000
But then right after that, a video on Instagram started going viral because he, the the lead male with like 200 meters to go, follows the lead cars who were pulling off to the side of the course because they were clearing room because you can like see the finish line.
01:25:20.159 --> 01:25:20.399
Yep.
01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:26.479
He follows them and he goes to the other side of the barriers for like, you know, a couple seconds.
01:25:26.800 --> 01:25:30.479
Couple seconds, just enough for everyone to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, you got to go on this side.
01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:34.640
So he stops and turns around, and then he gets out-leaned.
01:25:34.960 --> 01:25:39.760
And it was like, then it, you know, all the comments are like, where's the crowd control?
01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:40.479
What's going on?
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:41.520
Like, how did this happen?
01:25:41.680 --> 01:25:49.520
Because there was also a fan running next to him with like a Kenyan flag that maybe distracted him that caused him to go that way.
01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:54.399
I I don't know about that, but all the comments are like, what the hell's going on here?
01:25:55.439 --> 01:25:59.359
I I wonder if he's getting outleaned either way.
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:05.680
He must have, I I I suspect because he looked pretty out of it at the finish.
01:26:05.760 --> 01:26:06.640
I wonder if he was on the ground.
01:26:08.239 --> 01:26:08.960
On the ground for a while.
01:26:09.039 --> 01:26:20.239
And I wonder if like that is a I think it's a different situation than the US half marathon champs, where like that was so egregious with what the the race uh camera officials and whatnot did.
01:26:20.399 --> 01:26:24.159
But this was more like, I mean, the cam the the car typically does that in all marathons, right?
01:26:24.239 --> 01:26:26.000
That are televised where like they pull off last minutes.
01:26:26.079 --> 01:26:28.319
So like as a runner, that's your obligation to know that.
01:26:28.399 --> 01:26:31.439
And I think he must have just been so in the pain cave, so you know.
01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:34.960
I think he was that spent that he just made a he made an error.
01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:35.359
Yeah.
01:26:35.760 --> 01:26:38.319
It did seem like the flag didn't help.
01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:39.680
Definitely didn't help.
01:26:40.000 --> 01:26:46.399
The woman with the flag like blocked his vision enough to not see the shoot in front of him and to follow the car.
01:26:46.560 --> 01:26:47.439
But yeah.
01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:50.479
Yeah, but it was just oh man, so dramatic.
01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:51.439
That entire finish.
01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:52.640
I was like watching it.
01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:58.800
The commentators had no idea that Nathan was coming up on him because he was so far back, even with 200 meters to go.
01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:05.680
Um, but if anyone just goes on YouTube and just types an LA marathon finish, like that's what's going to come up now.
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:08.880
And I I would go watch it because it's just nuts.
01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:16.800
But where I'm going with this was that the LA Marathon in the last few years, from a competitive standpoint, has increased quite dramatically.
01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:19.039
Like the elite fields have gotten quite good.
01:27:19.199 --> 01:27:30.239
Um, but there hasn't been like quite the crowd control in the you know, final mile or whatever uh that some of the bigger like marathon majors have.
01:27:30.479 --> 01:27:41.279
And that just got me thinking like, do you ever get nervous watching like UTMB and the amount of fans that are like climbing or descending with some of the runners towards the finish?
01:27:41.359 --> 01:27:42.560
And it's like Oh yeah.
01:27:42.800 --> 01:27:44.079
La flagier for sure.
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:54.960
Like how like it's only a matter of time before someone really gets in the way and like, you know, makes someone trip at like mile 95 or something and screw something up.
01:27:55.119 --> 01:28:05.840
But it's like, where are we with having like More crowd control in some of these sections of races, which there's pros and cons to that.
01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:09.039
We're gonna see it this year at U Timby, but you're gonna be blown away.
01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:11.840
Like at Valarcine, at La Flagre.
01:28:12.079 --> 01:28:13.840
It's uh you're mobbed.
01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:14.479
It's crazy.
01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:17.359
Like these runners, I'm su I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.
01:28:17.439 --> 01:28:18.079
This is a great example.
01:28:18.399 --> 01:28:19.840
That there's not like barriers.
01:28:21.039 --> 01:28:21.680
Yeah.
01:28:22.640 --> 01:28:25.760
So that's a good one.
01:28:26.159 --> 01:28:30.079
Brent, have you been to UTMB before?
01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:31.600
This will be my first time.
01:28:31.920 --> 01:28:32.159
Okay.
01:28:32.239 --> 01:28:35.520
I was just I was trying to understand the context with which Finn Finn was saying that.
01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:42.960
Um yeah, Gorge Dillon Notre Dame at UTMB is like it's truly horrifying as a runner or spectator.
01:28:43.119 --> 01:28:48.399
Um I think some people might also describe it as like really special and empowering and uplifting.
01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:51.119
I've seen the videos and I'm like, this looks amazing.
01:28:51.199 --> 01:28:54.239
But at the same time, right back to you know, hazing in college.
01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:55.119
Yeah.
01:28:55.760 --> 01:28:57.520
Um yeah.
01:28:57.840 --> 01:28:59.520
Well, stop talking about traumas.
01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:04.720
It's how I'm gonna be good at backyard ultras.
01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:08.640
Come on, gotta make the Olympics.
01:29:10.239 --> 01:29:20.159
Um was that the was that the question of like when do you find the second time?
01:29:20.319 --> 01:29:23.520
Because I was trying to think of acute examples of when that has happened.
01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:42.880
Yeah, like I don't know, like I remember um the last time Courtney won UTMB, like when she was going up the last climb and descending the final descent, there was like it looked like straight out of forest gum where there was like 300 people running with her.
01:29:43.439 --> 01:29:50.640
Um because like at that, like, you know, you can keep up with an ultra runner at the end of UTMB.
01:29:51.680 --> 01:30:03.359
But it was like I was just sitting there watching the live stream being like, dude, if some idiot isn't paying attention and like knocks one of Courtney's feet, I'm gonna be so because she was like starting to blow up too.
01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:08.560
I was like, I can't believe there aren't officials being like, do not run with the runners.
01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:21.760
I also kind of remember there being some questioning of Jarma Granger was dressed in like a American flag like suit at world championships, like out on the course cheering and stuff.
01:30:22.079 --> 01:30:38.960
And of like, is he like like there because there are strict rules around uh people on course and and like interference and stuff at worlds of like is Jarma like trying to sabotage the US by dressing in red, white, and blue like star pasting?
01:30:39.680 --> 01:30:40.319
Yeah.
01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:43.279
I don't think that's ever his intent.
01:30:43.439 --> 01:30:46.640
Um but I'm gonna I'm gonna end us on this.
01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:48.479
This is uh a little bit of breaking news.
01:30:48.560 --> 01:31:00.479
It happened, I think, on Instagram a few days ago, but Sally McCrae announced that she is leaving Nike and is actively courting new sponsors, I'm guessing like a new shoe deal, and she's in the process of trialing shoes.
01:31:00.640 --> 01:31:11.760
This is wild because I was this is an aside a little bit, but I was on a work trip to San Francisco last fall, and I went, I stopped in an SF running company, and at SF Run Co.
01:31:12.079 --> 01:31:16.560
they have a poster of the 2014 Nike Trail team.
01:31:16.640 --> 01:31:27.119
And I remember being there at the store looking at it and being like, that is amazing, and commenting that like of all the people, Zach Miller, Tim Tollefson, Vargo, Laney, Gelfi, go down the list.
01:31:27.279 --> 01:31:30.239
The only person left 12 years on was Sally.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:34.960
And she was the last person to leave like that hallmark team in our sport.
01:31:35.520 --> 01:31:38.159
So I don't know if there's a question or a comment there.
01:31:38.479 --> 01:31:39.119
It's over.
01:31:39.359 --> 01:31:39.840
It's over.
01:31:40.000 --> 01:31:43.039
That era is officially bookended like today.
01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:47.439
I hadn't thought about that part until you just said that.
01:31:47.600 --> 01:31:49.680
That's wow.
01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:51.840
Now, now that's kind of a big deal.
01:31:52.000 --> 01:32:13.520
Because I was looking at it, I was looking at it in terms of like today, and I'm like, you know, Sally's so good at the what she does and like the lane that she's carved out in this sport that I I wouldn't be surprised if it was her decision to part ways with Nike and not that they like couldn't come to an agreement or something like that.
01:32:13.680 --> 01:32:23.760
Like, I think she could have stayed with Nike for however long she wanted, and she would still be a great brand ambassador for Nike and be able to do great things with them.
01:32:24.079 --> 01:32:38.239
I also believe that Sally could go run for another brand or or not and just be independent and have full freedom to do anything she wants.
01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:44.319
Um I saw her most recent Instagram post, she said like 13 shoe brands has already reached out to her.
01:32:45.039 --> 01:32:51.119
Um so I feel like she's got the uh the momentum right now.
01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:53.279
But um wow, yeah.
01:32:53.520 --> 01:32:58.640
End of the uh the Pat Werhane money ball Nike trail era.
01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:05.279
I I will always think of Sally as like in a yellow Nike tank top.
01:33:05.439 --> 01:33:11.199
Um I don't even know if their picture is real, it's just in my mind of like that's that's Sally McCrae.
01:33:11.439 --> 01:33:16.319
Um the like what's next?
01:33:16.560 --> 01:33:40.960
Like Sally's one of the fan favorites where like not that not that anyone can just like start a shoe company or start an apparel company, but like Sally kind of could pull it off, um be that a apparel company, or like wanting to like really partner with a brand in like an equity uh like a full line of too strong.
01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:42.159
Oh, for sure.
01:33:42.399 --> 01:33:42.880
100%.
01:33:43.680 --> 01:33:49.279
Um, I mean she is like, yeah, she's beloved and has a has a huge reach.
01:33:49.520 --> 01:34:02.720
I think like uh seeing seeing Killian do that from Solomon, like little different in terms of his chops with being pretty pretty product and performance focused and whatnot.
01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:06.800
But uh, you know, brands are built in so many ways on social capital.
01:34:06.880 --> 01:34:10.079
And Sally has that coming out of her ears.
01:34:10.800 --> 01:34:12.239
Yeah, this will be a fun one to follow.
01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:13.840
Yeah, definitely.
01:34:14.000 --> 01:34:24.000
It it's also like the Jeff Browning, um, you know, landing at Keen and like getting to shape the culture of that brand.
01:34:24.239 --> 01:34:36.079
Um, like Sally could very well land at a brand and get to be kind of that uh that like um mentor figure and have more of an impact, have more of a shape.
01:34:36.319 --> 01:34:40.159
So guys, this has been a fantastic conversation.
01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:41.279
Thank you so much.
01:34:41.439 --> 01:34:45.840
And yeah, it was a six week ish hiatus of the Long Run Archives, but we're back.
01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:46.720
Thanks, Brett.
01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:47.279
Thanks, Jeff.
