Why the 'well-rounded' career model is holding women back

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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again.
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I am Kaylee Batesman, the Managing Director at SheCan Code, and today we're discussing why the well-rounded career model is holding women back.
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I've got the wonderful Jenny Herberson, FVP of Global Marketing at Exclaimer with me today, who is here to discuss why women are still being encouraged to follow linear, well-rounded career paths in an industry that increasingly rewards the opposite.
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Welcome, Jenny.
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Lovely to have you on here.
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Thank you so much.
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I'm really excited to talk to you today.
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It is a pleasure to have you on.
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Thank you for taking some time out to uh have a chat with us and um come on spilling the tea.
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We'd love to set the scene with a little bit about you, if that's okay.
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Hear a little bit about um you, your career journey so far.
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Um our listeners would would love to hear that, please.
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Absolutely.
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Um so firstly, I'm I'm in marketing.
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Um, I've worked in marketing um for quite a long time.
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I was joking to the team the other day, this will age me, um, where with AI coming into the mix, um my first job was in an SEO agency, and that was very much in um at the start of SEO becoming a thing for companies.
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So that was where my first job is.
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Um so I think it's you know, for me, I was saying to some of the teams like, I remember the internet coming out.
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That's you know, I remember this whole journey of that.
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So that's how long um I've been working for.
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Um, and I think when you start in marketing in um SEO and paid, it's quite technical.
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Um, you know, so I've been used to working with technical people for all of my career.
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Um, you know, the the guys that worked in the agency were very technical in what they did.
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I was an account manager.
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Then I moved into Sky Scanner, which of course many people will know as a travel company, but we never thought of ourselves as a travel company.
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We always talked about ourselves as a tech company.
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The three founders were tech, um, you know, they were engineers, so it was very much a tech company.
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We were building tech tech tech software for consumers to be able to find flights.
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And that is, you know, um, engineering was the core of what we did, product engineering, and I took an awful lot of influence from what they did, a lot of their practices into the marketing side of things as well.
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After that, um, I moved into um then more B2B side of things into SaaS companies, um, again, building technology software and how we marketed those and took those out to the audiences.
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So I've always worked with technical people, I've always worked with engineers.
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I absolutely love working with engineers and translating what they do to the audiences um that bring the most value for the products.
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I love that.
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So, one thing on here um and why this podcast has started was to try and bust the myth around what you have to be doing to be working in tech or to say that you work in the tech industry because people have this misconception you have to be a coder, you have to be techie, computer science degree, and there are so many different roles.
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And and you're a perfect example of that.
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Like you don't have to be the coder to work in tech or to work with other people as well that work in technology, and that companies wouldn't function without all of those roles.
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You can't just have the coders without you, for instance.
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No, absolutely.
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And I think as well, like um products I've worked with laterally have been for a technical audience, you know, um our our product right now, very much for an IT audience.
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And because I've worked with um IT and engineers so closely in my previous roles, I do have that deep understanding, um, you know, and I how to talk their language, what what they will care about, what will be important for them.
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And I think that that's really important as well.
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And I've always, you know, when my friends have worked maybe in like banks for marketing or in the government for marketing, I've always talked about a work I do marketing for tech companies, you know, and that's how I describe myself.
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Um and I think it's for me, it's always been a really exciting place to be.
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Um, there's always that growth mindset, there's always that how do we do things differently, and the pace in them as well has always been really exciting.
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And I think that's that's why I love being in tech companies.
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Yes.
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Oh, being in marketing in tech must be quite exciting.
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Like you said, there everything moves fast because you are the person that is basically the storyteller.
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It we we couldn't have the the tech team without somebody that can communicate what it is and why people need it.
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So your your stories though must change so fast that you're especially with AI and everything that's happening at the moment and the speed we're moving at, um, that must be for you at the forefront of that.
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That must be a really nice place to be.
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You must not have a boring job.
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It's really exciting.
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I think that's maybe what makes a difference when we're building marketing teams.
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I think that's the biggest difference that I see is in tech companies, the marketing teams have a really good growth mindset.
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They're not they're curious, they're not scared of that challenge.
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Um, you know, they they're really up for learning, doing things differently, changing their processes, looking at different things.
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So when AI did come into the mix, um especially here, um, there was no nervousness in the team.
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Um, you know, the way the way I talked about it was, well, this is coming.
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I mean, you know, it's coming whether we like it or not.
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So actually, any job that you're going for in the future, you're going to be asked about what did you do with AI?
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How did you bring it in?
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How did you implement it?
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How do you use it in your day-to-day job?
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So for us, it was, well, how do I set everyone up for success in their future careers with AI from a marketing point of view?
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And I think being in tech really does help that because that mindset's already there.
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So they just embraced it.
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And actually, it's it's so exciting to see um how well everybody is doing with it.
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And it does allow you to bridge that storytelling so like in a really nice way as well.
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Um, because um, you know, that's the differentiator now with AI coming in.
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That makes a marketing role even more important because AI can go do the searching for you.
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We buy software differently now with AI.
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We go and ask AI, we don't go onto websites and do all that research ourselves, we ask AI.
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And the differentiator for them is um, you know, they can go look at all the features, they can do all of that hard work and do that, but they actually differentiate on what's the offer on top of that.
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And that's the bit where when you're building a brand and that story that you tell and the value that you bring, that's the differentiator now.
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And I think it's that original thought and concept.
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Why did you find this company?
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Why, you know, why do I matter and why choose us over a competitor as well?
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And I think that's the really exciting bit that for marketers, um, you know, there's that place for us now with that storytelling.
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Definitely, yes.
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And also all of that feeds into how you um build your team, as you said, um, marketing teams for um with that growth mindset and how you retain those people as well.
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Um, because the best companies are the ones um where there is a growth mindset and everything um is innovative and different.
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People tend to stay there um for a lot longer than those that are perhaps not embracing change as well.
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Absolutely.
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And it's it's exciting, and I think that's it.
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And we kind of the way we look at it is we do a lot of experimentation, you know, and AI really helps you to do that.
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And, you know, for me it was let's try, let's try things and see what happens.
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And what we've done here, um, and I think again, probably being in a tech company, was we knew that there had to be psychological safety for um the marketing team to be able to do those experiments with AI.
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So we worked really closely with the IT team and went the only barrier is not that they don't want to do it, it's that they're scared.
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They're scared what if they put the wrong data in somewhere and you know, and it's in the wrong place.
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And that that was the only fear that we had.
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So the IT team, they linked in, they helped make sure that we were on enterprise level software with Claude.
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And it meant that as soon as we said you're safe, it's governed.
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I mean, what the team are doing is just so exciting.
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But then when you're in a gross mindset tech company, I think you also you celebrate that.
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So in our all hands, you know, there's a now spot all the time in our marketing all hands, in our company all hands, celebrating um, you know, what people are doing with AI.
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And some things we get right and it's great.
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Some things we're like, well, we tried that and it definitely can't do that yet.
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So but it's and that's okay too.
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Yeah, and I think it's that feel forward, it's that growth mindset, it's all the language that tech companies use that you know, no doubt um people listening to this will be like, yeah, that that's the kind of stuff we do as well.
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This will really resonate with other people too.
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Yes, definitely having that that psychological safety in my class.
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We had a whole episode on that recently on this podcast.
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Um when you don't have that within your company, you don't try, you just shut down.
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Um it's not a good place to be.
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Um so um you have said that the traditional well-rounded career model no longer reflects how modern careers actually work.
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Um and we've just picked uh into some of that there, um, what we were just talking about, um, but especially in in tech and how fast it moves.
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Um what do you think women are still being told that's holding them back?
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I think for me, and when I kind of reflect back on what I mean by that, is I think you're you're kind of being told to take every box, you know.
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Um, but sometimes the boxes aren't always clear.
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Um, you know, it's like you need to be a better leader or you just and it's hard, like it is, you know, it's hard.
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And I think there's no clear context to that.
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And then you can maybe see other people being promoted and you're going, well, they don't have that either.
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And I think it's that inconsistency.
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Um, and I think especially for women, when you're trying to work out, well, what exactly is it that you're telling me to do?
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So you do try and do everything and you try and do everything really well, and I think that can hold some people back because you won't be good at certain things.
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You know, there'll be certain things that that maybe won't be um, you know, in your skill set.
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And I think it makes you nervous.
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It's like, oh, well, I can't talk to that effectively.
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And if I can't talk to that at that level, then I authentically can't talk to it.
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And I think there's a number of things that go on for women that mean by trying to be that really well-rounded, you know, good at everything, it just limits them, it makes them nervous, it, you know, it pulls us back.
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Um so what happened for me, um, and I think the step change for me was when I was at Sky Scanner, and what they did, which I think was really effective, is they actually brought in a leadership program and there was a mix of men and women on it.
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There was no, you know, uh anything differently done there.
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Um, but what they did was they give um a 360 feedback exercise, and it was actually called um the leadership circle.
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Um, hopefully I'm allowed to name names, but that's the that's the one we use.
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Um, and what it did was it actually mapped back to leadership um behaviours and competencies really effectively.
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Um, so I was then given from that really tangible areas to work on.
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You had a coach that you could work on, and the coach wasn't in isolation, they worked with the company because sometimes when you have a business coach, unless they're getting that feedback in from the company, they can give advice that actually doesn't always help you.
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And I think that feedback loop really helped as well.
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And something that came up for me was at that stage, you know, I was really worried about gender and I was a single mum.
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And being a single mum at that point was something that wasn't the norm.
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So I very much tried to hide that, I very much tried to not bring my personal life in.
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I, you know, I thought that would be a bad thing.
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So what came up for me in that actually was that I wasn't being authentic enough.
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People were like, well, who's the real Jenny?
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Like it was friendly, everyone, you know, that, but they couldn't get beneath the surface because I showed no vulnerability, because I thought vulnerability was a complete weakness.
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And I think for me at that point, that was the real change of I started to understand actually what was important.
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And then when people were saying well-rounded and they were like going, Oh, you just need to be a better leader, suddenly I could see the tangible things that they meant.
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And actually, it's a different in every business, it's been different in every business I've been to.
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So if you try and just be well-rounded, take every box, you've got to know your context.
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And that's what Sky Scanner did really well.
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It's like for for here, this is exactly what we need at the next level that you're going to go to.
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And I think that's that really, really helped me.
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And then it also helped me understand what I was good at and what I brought that was the differentiator that was helping me, you know, move up in my career and not do be too concerned on the stuff that I maybe wasn't good at.
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And I also, as I became a market leader, I made sure that those gaps that I had were filled within the team.
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So, you know, I'm very aware that the gaps that I have, so I make sure I surround myself with other people that are really good in those areas.
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So then as a marketing team as a whole, we're we're stronger because of that.
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And I think that's maybe the shift for me that really helped me just think about it in a different way.
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I love that.
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You just said so many things.
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Leadership for starters, everybody just says to be a better leader with actually giving you any direction.
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And also something we have discussed on here a lot is when you step into leadership, it's actually a very lonely place because you've got no one to ask because you don't want to freak your team out.
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So you don't ask anybody, and you just think everyone expects me to have all the answers because I'm the leader, and I can't have any gaps, because that's why I was put in this position.
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And it's the most ridiculous thing because, like you said, you fill in the gaps with people that can do those things really well because you don't have to know everything to do everything, and it's just so reassuring, especially when a company steps in there and not only gives you a business coach, but somebody that's going to give you some context about how that actually applies to the company that you work in.
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Um, it would be so helpful with what is expected of you.
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Um, and you're so right.
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Uh, in the context of our community members, we have loads of community members that come up to us at events and say, Well, you know, I've done this and I've done that, but I've got a load of gaps, and um, I'm I've checked job descriptions, so I'm not applying because I don't check all of the boxes and I I'm you know, I'm not good at this and I'm not good at that.
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And this drives us insane because they're so good.
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And we've got employers that would love to hear from them, our partners.
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So we actually ended up filling in the gap, the bridge, to make sure that those members meet our partners because they're fantastic and don't realize that they they they might not too call the boxes, and that's absolutely fine as well.
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But there might be somebody out there, a company out there that just wants you on their tech team and they're willing to fill in that gap.
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So um, we found a bridge to do that, and we actually hired a recruiter who now literally says, We think you should meet you, um, and and here's why.
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Um, because it it that happens a lot.
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I think us as women, that happens so often with women, especially when you start moving towards leadership and you're there thinking, Yeah, I can't don't bring your full self to work.
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Nobody wants to see that.
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And actually they do.
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They do.
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And it it it was so good for me because actually now when colleagues describe me, they actually mention my vulnerability, my authenticity, my integrity.
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And I used to think as well, it was just like you had to be a bit ruthless to get ahead.
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Although, I mean, all those old tropes of like, you know, this is you know, 10, 15 years ago.
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And I'm so glad that I didn't do that.
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I'm so glad I stayed true to who I am.
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And actually, just you know, for for me, I'm more of a systems thinker.
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So um that's how I do the value that I think I bring.
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And it's it helps you go.
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I don't, I'm not a subject matter and ex everything.
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You can't be.
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You can't tick all those boxes.
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If you find someone that can tick every single box um when there's a job application, I'm very suspicious of that.
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Um, you know, because come on, we always are looking for like the holy grail lights.
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Like, oh yeah, that that person, like, here's a unicorn that we would like, but you you kind of know you're not going to get it.
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I think when you put a job roll out.
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Um, and I think for me, not being that subject matter expert, but what I can do is I can work a problem.
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And I think that's where I started to see my real skill set was actually it's okay that I can't tick everything, but I know how to bring the right people together to solve that problem collectively.
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Um, and I think that's the bit that was the real shift for me.
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And that was, you know, again, back to Sky Sky, that's how we thought as a tech company.
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Because when engineering, I think, leads in the culture, you get that system thinking coming right down through, you know.
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And I think I'm so glad I've worked in tech for so long because I think that has shaped me for for who I am because of that.
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Yeah, and you do need those people that got lost in the details that you need those, but you also need somebody that's still we say drag us forward by our hair, because sometimes you can get lost in what you're doing and it what do they call it, analysis paralysis.
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What you wanted to launch didn't launch because you just got stuck in it.
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So you need somebody like you that's like, we're gonna keep moving.
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It's you know, things don't have to be absolutely perfect, we're gonna keep moving though, because we've got to get to launch.
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Um so yeah, it is um having a diverse team um is obviously something that we advocate for.
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Um but yeah, bring bringing your full self to work, uh very much um a fan of that.
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And your own career path has been anything but linear.
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Um standing agency, hypergrowth, uh SAS scaling, global leadership.
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Looking back, what were the moments where leaning into your strengths mattered more than filling those gaps?
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:32.720
I would say um I think everything taught me different things.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:43.519
I think being in the agency, actually, I would say starting in that kind of environment when you were client-facing, you had no choice but to understand the commercial side of business.
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.680
Um, and I think that really helped me because you had that commercial thinking.
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:48.880
What does the client need?
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:49.839
What will they care about?
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.279
Why will they sign again?
00:18:51.440 --> 00:19:03.519
Um, and I think that for me, but you also had to be very planned and that stakeholder management meant that communication, that communication skill really, really um started to come in there.
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.599
Um and then I think moving into Sky Scanner, we were hyper-growth.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:13.680
Um, so we talked about that growth mindset, but we were so focused on what was impacting growth.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.640
And we were very much a product-led company.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:28.319
So it meant then that I started to, you know, hone that actually it's about the customers, it's about the product, and if we build that out, that's that's the really important thing.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:42.240
And I think for me, when I I suppose I heard from friends when they were in different companies, luckily I never really experienced like more political environments or anything like that, or you know, where ego was.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:50.400
But I remember thinking, gosh, I would I would really struggle in that um because we just, as I say, there was a real system thinking.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.279
And that definitely played to my strengths.
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:58.319
Um, and I think then when, you know, you'd have the odd person join and they'd be a bit more political.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.519
And I just remember going, I don't know what to do here.
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:04.799
I don't, I don't almost understand um what that is.
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:14.160
So I started to learn how I could probably influence, but influence in a different way with that collaboration and different things like that.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:27.680
So I started to understand that actually the way that I could bring people together, the way I could influence through that journey to get projects completed, you know, delivery with what we were doing with marketing.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.839
Um, because you know, marketing doesn't work in isolation in tech community.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.400
Marketing absolutely works with everybody else.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.759
You know, we work with the engineers to make sure all of our tracking is set up, for example, the data teams, everything like that.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.799
So we absolutely do not work, we work closely with product teams when we're bringing products out to the market.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.039
So you have to be able to collaborate.
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:55.359
And I think that was when I saw that as a real strength of if you just try and do marketing and silo it out, it won't work, you will not be successful.
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:04.640
So that collaboration that I really honed during my career, I think is when I sort of realised that was actually a real, a real strength of mine as well.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:10.319
So it's interesting, as much as I maybe had certain skill sets, it was actually a lot of the competency.
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:21.039
It was like more of like when we think about competencies and behaviours, that's probably where when I look back that I was, you know, being being more successful on those on those kind of things.
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.160
I mean, not perfect, definitely got a long way still to go.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.279
But you know, if you're asking me what on reflection, that that would definitely be where, you know.
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:37.440
Um, and I think the thing that I bring in here, um, which is again looking at growth as a system.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:43.839
So we have no blame, there's no finger pointing, there's no, oh, well, this team didn't do that, or that team didn't do that.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.240
There is a system, there are processes, and that's how we look at things.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.519
We map it out and we look at it in that way.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:59.039
And I think just keeping things really neutral in from that emotional side of things, um, I think really helps the team.
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:04.160
It allows them to be able to say exactly what they're thinking about something in a very safe environment.
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.359
And it supposes back to that psychological safety as well.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:13.839
That I realized very early on once you had that and once you created that within a team, that was highly important too.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:18.799
Yes, that team goes above and beyond once they they feel that definitely.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:37.920
Because it's so interesting as well because as you go through your career, you you go through these different mindsets of of you if you had become a leader too young, you almost haven't learned that it's okay to be your authentic self because at that point you would have been copying everybody else before you.
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:43.039
And a lot of those managers before you probably would have been men that were all doing things the same way.
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:55.200
And I spoke to so many ladies who have said to me the moment I realized I didn't have to be the managers that I had experienced before and that I took the good things from them.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:55.599
Yeah.
00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:07.920
But I I mixed them in with the things that were authentic about me and that's how I wanted to lead my team and not always just modeling people that had come from behind you.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.319
That though those are the teams then that experience growth.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:23.599
Absolutely and it's interesting actually because what I do in meetings as well is you know I watch men and women and look at actually when they are being more effective.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:28.400
And one of the things that I realized that I wasn't as good at was controlling the narrative in a meeting.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:35.359
You know, that was always a bit that I was like I'll do the hard work the numbers will you know be there and that's as much as I need to do.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:40.400
And then when I did see people being more successful I was watching them in meetings and going, they're really good.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:49.200
It wasn't about self-promotion, but they were very good at explaining what their team had done, you know, what that impact had you know resulted in.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:55.839
And I think there was then that that I realized that as a woman I I just wasn't doing that um effectively enough.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:09.119
And I just remember watching and going okay that's that's the muscle and I think it's the muscle I still continue to have to actually like it's it's it's the toughest one for me continued to this day of how do I go in with the right narrative.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:25.039
You know I set the team up they're you know working on all the right things but it is my job to now explain you know what we're doing why and what the impact is of that and I think that's that would be my key takeaway from you know the learning that I still take with me now.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:31.519
Yes, because I I think when you step into leadership your immediate fault is um the team managing a team.
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.319
And a lot of people don't want to manage a team that's fair enough.
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:40.400
But you actually something I realized after a while was it's actually managing upwards as well.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.720
That I I was not prepared for that.
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:52.400
And like you said that narrative of what you're telling stakeholders and how you're explaining what your team is doing and why that I wasn't prepared for that one.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:00.240
And managing upwards is just an art form in in itself it's not just managing your own team.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.640
I wish there was training on that one.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:36.240
No absolutely and I think the managing upwards one for me is um because when people um you know like my boss the CEO he he's across everything so he has such little context you know in each area and it is how do we really effectively give him the information in a way that he can then report up to the board because he's having to do the same thing and it's like how do we set him up for success to be able to do that more effectively and sometimes there's a lot of work in that because maybe the data and reporting's not quite there or you know different things.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.519
So it's I think for me it's okay.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:50.880
And you know and then when you're getting lots of questions that's absolutely okay because that shows where the gaps are in how we're you know bringing that information further up and I think some people struggle with that.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:26:19.519
They see it maybe as a negative thing of um oh this person is you know into the detail or that this or that and it's like no they have a job to do to do that somewhere else and actually if you see it as a really positive thing of going actually you know sit down with them and go what do you need to know how can we help you know how can I support better and I think when you shift it into a positive of how can I do this really well I think that that's the bit that that shift um is was really important for me.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:28.079
Yeah it also keeps you on track as well because if you sit and think what does the CEO need to know really they're the important things we're using am I on track?
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.079
Am I actually doing these things?
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:37.599
You hold yourself to account then don't you because you can get very lost in the day to day of everything.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:50.079
So I wanted to talk to you as well a little bit about um visibility and recognition because a lot of women in tech they're delivering huge impact but they do still struggle with that visibility and recognition.
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.720
Why do you think that disconnect exists and what can people do about it?
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:02.400
I remember seeing this um with someone in my team at a previous company and she she was quieter.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:15.920
She was quieter than her colleagues and I just remember the perception from run the business was um that her colleagues were more effective were having more impact were being more successful.
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:42.400
And I remember being so frustrated by it so frustrated by it and I remember speaking to my boss and going it's so unfair why can someone not quietly work hard and have good results and that's not enough and I just remember him saying because that's not the world we live in you know um unfortunately if you want to move up into a leadership position you know you have to be able to you know have that visibility and it's a balance.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.720
You don't want to move into self-promotion because I've seen that go wrong for people it's all about me, me, me.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:53.359
So the advice that I give to people is that you have to have a narrative it is really important and you have to know what that is.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:03.279
And when you have that narrative the why I always the advice I give is make it customer first make it business second and make it you third.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.039
You're in the mix you're important and it's a way to think about your career as well.
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:13.200
But if a business see you highly focused on what the customer needs it means we're solving the right problems.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:23.200
And then if you're highly focused next on the business needs about hitting those numbers you will develop the right plans you will develop the right strategy and everything like that.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:34.000
And it's having that framework in place as well of when you're thinking in that way, develop your strategy around it, develop your plans and develop how you're going to report up on your impact and results.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:29:03.519
So I think it is being very clear and that's what I try and develop out for the team it's to set them all up for success it is what what are they accountable for and what do they then need to be reporting at and I do think it is as much as it feels unfair that your results don't speak to yourself, you have to have a narrative and it's leaning into that and you know what we've we've got AI now you know that that is where if you have something that you're not maybe as good as before talk to AI.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:17.759
This is what I do this is my role how can I have a narrative how can I report up and help it let it help shape that for you and I think that that's that's what really changes nowadays for people that maybe struggle with this a little bit more.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:52.079
Yes I love that that that feeling of not always wanting to talk about what you do but having to speak up in the workplace sometimes that if you were you know a really big part of a project and and you want to let people know that someone told me on here about a brag book once and they said write everything down in your brag book and then you can go to it when you know you might be going for another job but also when things come up and you just want to remind yourself of all the things that you did that were really good things you do forget a lot of things as well.
00:29:52.240 --> 00:30:06.480
If you were to put that brag book into AI and say could you please create me a narrative around what I do it would come up with such a good story about you and how you have helped the customer um not just yourself.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.480
And um I couldn't agree more with that.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:40.720
I have found as well um finding a sponsor internally throughout your career has been one of the best things and most of mine have been male allies and they are the people that are creating that narrative for me when I perhaps wasn't speaking up and hoped that somebody would just notice that I was working really hard and nobody really noticed having those male sponsors talk about you in a positive light in rooms that you're not in is so valuable.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:49.519
So sometimes if you can't do it because you're still you know quite junior in your career find somebody that's going to say it for you.
00:30:49.920 --> 00:31:07.839
Do you know the other thing that I would do is go check their perception of you go ask what value they think you bring because sometimes it'll be surprising because you'll hear things that you don't expect um and then you'll see the gaps and go, oh they don't know I'm doing this and I have to say that.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.880
And perception for women I think is really important.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:29.200
Do you remember the dove ad that they did where um they got women to on there was a sketch artist and they were drawing them and they got the women to describe them and then they got a man who was looking at the woman to describe them and the pictures were so different and the when the women were describing themselves they made themselves look worse.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:34.480
They picked out all their faults they picked out all the things that were wrong with them and that's what they described first.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:44.400
And I do think we're guilty of that as women is we go straight to all of the things that we are not good at and we draw that picture of ourselves that isn't what other people see.
00:31:44.720 --> 00:32:03.200
So for me think about that go draw your picture of yourself what you know like you know and what that looks like and go and find as you say that male sponsor and ask them what their picture looks like of you and look at the difference and then start to you know um create that narrative and be braver with it as well.
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:10.240
Yeah I love that that's such good advice because we do we pick out all of the well I can't do this yeah and I can't do that.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.920
And that's how we end up not applying for the job or not going for the promotion or whatever it may be.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:30.799
So sometimes yeah having that that what other people think of you and your job um because you might be that that quiet person but everybody else thinks yeah but we wouldn't function as a team without that person.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:38.000
That person is so reliable that person is the person that can always find the answer to something that we're struggling with.
00:32:38.079 --> 00:33:36.559
So we give it to that person because they're just brilliant at that um yeah that's that's brilliant advice and or on that note I wanted to ask you about hybrid skill sets as well because um combining things like creativity strategy storytelling and data um we're now in a world of hybrid skill sets um even if we sometimes think we don't tick all those boxes um why are these combinations becoming more valuable particularly as I are AI changes the way that we work I think I mean we do a model here and oh I can't remember which one it is but it puts you into the colours you know I think yellow is is more creative blue is the more analytical data um you know red is the one where it's like those people leading um you know making things um happen and then I think green's that emotion tell that's that caring one and we map the team out and I think you can then start to see that hybrid you know competencies and then you've got all of the different skill sets as well.
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:44.079
And for me, you know that that data and that storytelling that's a really unusual combination there as well.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:34:03.359
But it's it's so important because if you're trying to tell a story and you get almost too emotionally wedded to it and going this is it I've created this it's my baby this is perfect it's going to land if you do not put data beside that and actually step away and go, is it right?
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:04.720
Is it landing with the audience?
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:06.160
Are they getting that messaging?
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:26.559
Is it resonating and are they taking the action that we need them to take through that and that that's the really important bit and I think that's why that combination is really really important to have and it's one where when I do positioning brand positioning work for companies you know I'm I'm a bit allergic to doing it without data.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.960
So the first you know questions I come in with a company I'll go, you're positioning to this.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:35.599
I'll go to the people at like the customer face and go, is that resonating?
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:36.559
Do they believe that?
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:42.719
Do you use that story or does marketing use that story there and are you using a different story to tell?
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:50.559
And that's really important because that's the data you know you go out and you get your qualitative data you go out and get a quantitative data of is this story landing?
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:59.199
And without that so many companies have done it they've taken stories out and they haven't landed because they just haven't um understood the data.
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:11.280
But if you're too data led and you bring the data in at the start of that, you're just not going to come up with a really beautiful creative story, something that's completely different to what everyone else talks about.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:29.440
So it it's it's a really interesting mix and I think it's getting the balance of that of that right to not be constrained about having those skill sets like side by side but knowing how they should be combined and how that work that works well then to have the impact that you want.
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:49.679
And I think that's a leader's job to make sure they're almost watching for that within their team of and it's you know some people will have maybe a mix of these skill sets maybe you bring people together to create the mix um as well but I do think you just thinking that this is my skill set and that'll be enough I think those days are gone.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:55.039
I think companies are expecting more and I think AI coming in allows you to have that.
00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:11.119
So if you are more creative and you struggle with the data side that's where AI is your best friend now because what you can do is you can get that set up someone can help you set that up and then you can be getting all of that data in and getting all of those little feedback loops in to your storytelling as well.
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.360
So there's that's how I would think about that.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:14.719
Yes so important.
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:32.960
And as a leader like you said to catch when those moments are not happening or um it it's funny because in um tech there is that misconception as well about um you are going to be very siloed if you work in technology and you're not going to work with other departments and you're probably just going to code all day and not talk to anyone.
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:38.880
And when you do talk to people that work in tech it's just they're like no that's not my day.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:51.440
I talk to so many different departments and we have to communicate with marketing and sales and commercial and everybody else because what's the point of us building something if it doesn't land well with the customer.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:58.960
Absolutely I mean our product is um really technical in the fact that um for IT customers to come in they've got to really trust us.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:20.159
I mean we're gonna go through their email systems like there's no way we can't have that trust so one of the things that we're doing is we're talking to the engineers and going, you need to start openly talking about how you're building this, what you're doing, why you care so much, you know, because you know as a new customer coming and hearing that will just really help them go, okay, I really trust this software.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:36.400
So when you're in tech and you're in SaaS it's really important then for the engineers to talk about actually they're not just sitting coding they're talking about how they're building why they're building what's happening in the environment that they're building in um and that helps us you know talk about why why we can be trusted.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.639
And I think that goes for all technology companies to be able to talk about that.
00:37:40.800 --> 00:38:14.239
So yeah I don't think I think people's perception of this is my job and you know I code all day yeah you're absolutely right um that's that's not the way it is doesn't happen no no something we try and bust on this um on this podcast um so what about uh the the pressure to often follow a very um defined career ladder that that is still uh around around and I wish I knew at university what my career was was going to be like and because I just probably would have uh taken a different route.
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:22.559
Um but what advice would you give to someone who wants to build a nonlinear career without feeling like they're stepping back from ambition?
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:28.800
Yeah it's it's I do have good advice for the team when we talk about this because I did it myself.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:39:34.800
I moved um from a period of time towards the end of my time at SkyScaner I mean from marketing into a business operations role um and I remember then when I left having that quandary of well what what what am I what do I go now for jobs you know um in the future and I was really scared I was like I've taken myself out of marketing that's it I've taken myself out of marketing for a few years I can't go back it will have all changed and what I realized was it was actually not about my like skill set in marketing it was actually I was a marketing leader and I could go in and I could lead teams and what I needed to learn that it happened in those few years I could learn um you know and there was a team there that were the subject matter experts to be able to fill that um and I think that's really important you know it you can take that side by steps and we've got people on our team who've come from sales and the marketing team and it is amazing they are unlocking themselves as growth leaders because they're going to have both sides of that they're gonna have the experience that wealth of experience for both sides and it means that they can bring into marketing basically how to sell to the customer like that is it's so powerful and they will be more successful because of that.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:39.679
I also think with AI coming there are no longer linear career paths.
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:47.280
Those days are gone that that's over nobody knows what the jobs are in the future and as a parent it's utterly terrifying.
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:59.840
You know it's like what jobs will even exist in the future so for me it's you know if you think when people talk about oh I'm gonna do this and then my next job will be this and I'm just going, do you think that job will exist in the future?
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:01.280
Because I'm not sure it will.
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:04.239
And that is really really scary for people.
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:31.679
So I think you've just almost got to take your focus away from like this is my next role and this is my next role and next role and it's just you know lean into AI, learning AI, understand you know what leadership will look like in the future you may be managing people you may be managing agents you may be managing mixtured both you know the world is changing but what competencies will you need in that future world as a leader in businesses and what will that be?
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:38.079
And I think it's almost people need to take a step back and actually be comfortable with the unknown at the moment on that.
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:39.440
Yes, exactly.
00:40:40.000 --> 00:41:00.159
You're so right on that and and being uncomfortable with the unknown a lot of our um community members they are career transitioners and we always try and get them to talk about their story because it helps other people that might be thinking I'd like to make a move but perhaps that's you know I'm I'm stepping away from doing what I thought I should be doing.
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:06.000
I I was meant to be working my way up to be you know the executive that speaks at big conferences.
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:07.840
That's what everybody wants to do in tech, right?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.920
And you're like maybe I don't want to do that.
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:11.039
What do I want to do?
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:21.119
And the more that people share they went from one industry to another they had no tech experience but they ended up in tech it helps people to think I could do that.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:38.719
I could use AI to help me in those areas and and I bring with me all of these amazing business skills that somebody else might not have and a tech company would much rather employ me because I'm 15 20 years ahead of somebody else because I've worked in a business 20 years.
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:49.360
So you know you might not have the the techie skills but again you might not tick all those boxes but you can definitely move over and um it's not taking a step back.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:58.239
It's sometimes a step sideways can massively help you on where you want to go next and sometimes it's not even a step sideways to be fair.
00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:13.360
Absolutely and it could be you know it's like when you're you're doing that step sideways you're learning you know that more commercial intelligence within a different area so it means that you can actually understand the results of business needs and drive for them more effectively.
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:29.840
What will you learn in that role and how will that help you in the future?
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:35.440
And I think instead of going if I do this I'm going to take myself out of a career ladder they don't exist.
00:42:35.519 --> 00:43:02.559
So go and into roles that you can learn the most from um and I think that's the bit like you know we've got people leaning in you know to AI enablement now that wasn't a role that existed um last year but they have the competencies and skill set that will you know um make them successful in that role and they are learning an incredible amount and I think that's the bit um at the moment um for people just to be really concentrating on is this that learning for what will be important in the future.
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:08.400
Definitely um and you have worked across different stages of business growth.
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:55.440
What do you think genuinely drives influence and progression in modern tech companies today and what myths do we need to let go of I think there's one for me which is oh I'm gonna get um a promotion if I've managed more people if I've managed a massive team and I remember that one going I remember being guilty of that myself you know leading a team and actually and I think it's those kind of you know those old kind of like ones where you're going actually will that matter um in the future so for me the bit that I've learned about what tech companies really care about it it's results at the end of the day if you understand the results um that the business needs to achieve um that and how you the part you play in that that's really important.
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.559
I think that's that's hugely important.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:01.440
And again what goes along That is what was talking about earlier.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.000
It's like, well, what is the business model?
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.320
You know, commercially, how does that all work?
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:11.840
You know, and understanding that level at the business as well.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:18.880
And then it's that, I think it's those collaboration skills and that emotional intelligence.
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:24.559
Those are things that are really important that companies are complex, they're complex systems.
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:29.679
You can't work in isolation and silos to get those results, to get that impact.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:35.280
And I think it's you know making sure that you can work really effectively with different teams in a really effective way.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:41.360
And people want to work with you on projects and different things like that, you know, and how you show up into that.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:46.960
And the last one for me, I think it's the how you just develop people.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.800
I think as you become that to me, as I see as my main role now, it's how do I set people up for success?
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:53.920
How do I develop them?
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:55.440
How do I make them braver?
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:02.960
Um, you know, especially in a world of change, like, you know, for me, it's that change management and it's that transition management.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:10.480
It's like when people are going through those moments of change, how do you get them through that as effectively as possible with that psychological safety?
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.280
Because it's it's it's scary at the moment.
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.079
You know, people, there's a lot more fear than there ever was.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:20.880
And it's not just businesses, you know, that are controlling that psychological safety.
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.880
It is AI, it is the wider changing, um, the macro changes as well.
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:31.119
So, how do you provide that to make people show up and be able to do their best work in a in a very different time?
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:32.079
Oh, yes.
00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:34.000
I I couldn't agree more with that.
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:45.679
Some of the companies I have been through as a as a young person, I was very, very lucky to land in an American company because the culture there was very try things, be braver.
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:52.559
I love that you said earlier, you don't point fingers, you don't say this went wrong, that went white went wrong.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:56.480
You try and learn as a team, we don't get everything right all the time.
00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:57.760
That's fine too.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:59.760
Don't throw each other under the bus.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:00.800
What went wrong?
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.519
How are we gonna not do that again and and move forward?
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:10.400
And being at that American company, it was very much don't cost us a lot of money, but try try new things.
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:11.599
You know, just go for it.
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:13.119
Don't lose us a lot of money.
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.119
So be careful, but try new things.
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:21.760
And I was so lucky to land in that and to experience it because you took it with me into every role afterwards.
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:22.559
Absolutely.
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:38.000
Otherwise, you stay in your job, in your in the one that you were was in the job description that is very, very tiny one, instead of moving outside of that, and you never move forward, and then you just think, Well, I've been here a year, I'll probably go elsewhere.
00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:47.519
But those where you're encouraged to expand and it's okay that things went wrong and just to keep moving, you stay for a really long time.
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:53.599
You are so invested in the company, and they're just the best teams to work on.
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:55.519
Like you said, people want to work with you.
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:57.519
That's a little feeling.
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:00.639
And I think the best companies put those guardrails in place, don't they?
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:05.039
Those safety nets in place for people to be braver and try things, you know.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:15.280
And that's where, you know, if you can put, and I think that's my job as a marketing leader, is to make sure I've put those guardrails in place, like with AI and also with you know, our advertising and spend there.
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:18.480
It's like, look, what do we do to put those guardrails in place?
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:29.760
Like the monitoring along our funnel to make sure it's like, yes, we can try a lot more experiments because our monitoring is set up to allow us to be able to understand, oh, that one didn't work, let's revert that one.
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:35.199
Um and actually, you know, showcase you showcase the successes and the failures as much.
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:39.599
And, you know, um, and I think it it's getting that feel forward.
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:52.079
I remember that coming out, and it's like, you know, um, it's if you put feel forward in but with the right guardrails to allow people to feel in a safe way and not have an epic failure, which you know they can't recover from.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:56.639
And that's the key to make sure that those cultures um are there as well.
00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:58.079
Yes, I love that.
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:01.280
That is brilliant advice to end it on because we're already out of time.
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.400
I I could keep talking to you about this for a really long time.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.559
Um but it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:11.440
So, Jenny, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your um pearls of wisdom with our community.
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:12.320
It's been a pleasure.
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:13.599
Thank you so much.
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.519
I've really enjoyed talking to you today.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:16.400
Thank you.
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.440
And for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us and we hope to see you again next time.