From Design to Development: When You Thought Tech Wasn’t for You

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Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in again.
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I am Katie Batesman, the Manager Director, Community and Partnerships at Sheikan Code, and today we're discussing from design to development when you thought tech wasn't for you.
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I've got the wonderful Ella Mark, frontend developer at Field with me today, who never expected to end up in tech and definitely didn't expect to enjoy it.
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Now working at Field, she's here to share her journey from design to development, how she overcame imposter syndrome, and what it's like working at a company that actively supports her growth.
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Welcome Ella.
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Thank you so much for joining us today.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It is so exciting to be here.
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It's a pleasure to have you here.
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Thank you for taking some time out to chat on spilling the tea.
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Um, we'd love to start with a little bit about you, if that's okay.
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Uh an overview as to who you are, about how you ended up at Field and what you do.
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100%.
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So I am Ella Mark.
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I am a front-end developer here at Field, and I've been here for about five years now, which feels insane to think about.
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Um, I had come from a non-traditional background, so I was a graphic designer originally and ended up transitioning around the COVID time.
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Um, and yeah, as you said, was never expecting to make that transition.
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That was something that came very much out of the blue, as I'm sure we'll kind of dive into over the next half an hour or so.
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Um, but it's been a really, really interesting five years.
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And I am very thankful that I'd kind of accidentally ended up stumbling into this world.
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I love that when you look back and you go, how is five years flown by at that company?
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That's when you know you're at the right company, because when things are dragging and you get to the end of the year and you're like, oh, I haven't really achieved anything this year, not looking forward to the next year.
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But when you've been there five and that's flown by, that's a really lovely journey to be part of as well.
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And and and part of a company that is growing so fast as well.
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That's all that's you just know you landed on your feet when that happens.
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Oh, completely.
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I mean, when I joined Field, it was tiny at the time.
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You know, I think there was maybe 25 people there, and now it has, you know, 150 odd employees.
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It is kind of skyrocketed in terms of people knowing the company.
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I remember, you know, when I'd first tell people about working at Field, no one had heard of it.
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And now everyone I know has.
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And it's you know been so exciting to see something go from this very scrappy startup to a real proper company.
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Uh it's felt about like you know, five different jobs within it because it's changed so much over that time.
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Yeah, I love that.
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It's not for the faint-hearted um as well.
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We'll go into that a little bit in this conversation, um, being at a startup.
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But yeah, super, super fun when you you find yourself as part of that journey.
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Um I'd love to pick into your background though, um, because it's um not a traditional route into tech, uh, which we love to hear on this podcast and why it was started as well, um all the weird and wonderful routes into tech.
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So you started out in graphic design.
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What first sparked your interest in coding?
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Um, even as something that was on the side at the time.
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What what was that?
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Was it a person, something you'd seen, somebody else doing it?
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What sparked your interest?
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Yeah, well, I've been doing quite a bit of freelance web design work on the side of my full-time design job at the time.
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Um, and I'd thought, you know what, I want to get a bit more of a well-rounded view of how this works.
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You know, if I'm going to be designing for websites, I should probably know at least a little bit about what goes into actually making them.
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So I started doing just little free online courses, tiny little projects.
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And, you know, obviously I love creating anything.
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And I had that realization that I've suddenly discovered this entirely new mode of creation.
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And it felt like a whole new world had opened up.
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Um, and I started paying attention at that point to the insanely creative things that other design-minded people were doing with tech, and realizing that, you know, they have this ability to have an idea and take it all the way into something that actually works and that people can actually use.
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And that's so satisfying and cool.
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And it felt like I was able to exercise a part of my brain that I hadn't been able to access in such a long time.
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I'd felt at the time that I'd really plateaued in my job.
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I was kind of not pushing myself.
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And suddenly I'm doing something where I'm having to really push myself.
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You know, I'd boxed myself into being a creative arts and humanities girl.
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And I had that realization that I was limiting myself for no reason.
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And it's suddenly so exciting to unlock so many more things to do and try and experience, you know, once you realize that there are things that you wouldn't have associated with that more limited version of yourself, they're things that you can access and you can have so much fun with.
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Did you think that about tech originally?
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And when you said there were people that you were looking at that was like actually they're doing really creative things to um bring ideas, you know, through to people actually using them.
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And was that when you actually think of like the techy side of tech and the coding, was that kind of a misconception where you were like, I'm already in the creative part, they're they're not, you know, they do the technical part.
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Yeah, 100%.
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And I think to some degree I had to actively seek it out.
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I think we have a very strong idea of what tech is and it being kind of like purely about code and purely about kind of, you know, you know, I saw it as very much maths-heavy, and and it it it felt as if it was separated completely.
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And I think there is, you know, a level to which that is a distinction that's made quite purposefully by people sometimes.
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Um, but once I had that little foot in the door and I started to do more research and I started to look around me, that's when I started to see, oh, it's so much more than I thought it was.
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I think you have to fight through that first level of jargon and almost people wanting it to seem as if it's this kind of like very separate esoteric skill that you know only a few can access.
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Um and then once I was able to kind of open that door and realize that wasn't the case, that's when things started to feel really, really exciting.
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Yeah, especially when you say math.
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Some people are like, I I didn't like maths.
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And so somebody would say to me, Yeah, your whole job is gonna be math.
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Nope, no thank you.
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Oh my god, completely.
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And it's like, even that feels like a shame because you know, I also was not a big fan of maths at school.
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And I always think about, I wonder if it had been spoken about differently or taught differently, if I would have been able to find more of a route in, because now I know that I love, you know, that kind of much more technical problem solving and logic and stuff.
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But at the time I just felt it felt alien to me.
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It felt again like a thing that other people do, that I kind of struggle with.
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And I do wonder, like, oh, if we had kind of approached these things from a young age differently than we do, I bet so many more people wouldn't find it intimidating and wouldn't see it as an other people thing, but would see it as something that they could really engage in.
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Yeah, yeah, you're so right.
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Because in maths, it's very you just get a paper back with you got the answer wrong.
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And then it's like, well, actually, when you hit the world of work, it's like, well, you might get something wrong, but how did I get that wrong?
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How do I solve it this time around?
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And I think that's why I didn't like maths because it was very it was very black and white.
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Got that wrong.
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Yeah, and it was none of the kind of learning about why is something the way something is.
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It's like, okay, this is algebra, this is how it works, remember it or fail in your exam.
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There was none of that concept of like, but why is algebra like that?
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Like, why what do you mean that this is this?
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I and I've always really thrived in places where I've been able to figure things out for myself and kind of really understand them.
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And maths didn't feel like the kind of thing where it was presented in that way.
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It was just presented to me, it felt like just like a memory test.
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And that's not a very exciting thing to do.
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No, that's definitely not, and not something that you would then, as a young person, think I'd love to go into a career in a STEM subject.
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Um, and and then so you you decided to learn uh coding.
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And um, what I'm wondering is though, how did you go from coding that was just a hobby, um, and then decide at that point that you wanted to actually build a career around it?
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What what happened there?
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Was there some kind of flashpoint?
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I mean, this was the bit that took a lot longer.
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So, you know, originally I was seeing it as, hey, I can present myself as a graphic designer who also happens to have some of these skills.
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And, you know, these skills aren't serious, but they're there.
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Um, and you know, for a while I was thinking of applying for UX design jobs because it kind of felt like an in-between.
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It wasn't the scary thing of making the jump away from design.
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It was kind of like design, but make it tech in a way.
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Um, so that mental jump to actually being like, wait, I can actually really do this was a lot harder.
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And I remember it actually been my dad being like, Hey, you've been doing this coding thing for a while.
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Why didn't you apply for software jobs?
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And I thought he was insane.
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I was like, Well, you've completely misunderstood.
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You have no idea who I am and what I'm capable of.
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And like, I love your sense of belief, but ugh, silly.
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But uh, that was enough to plant the seed.
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Where then after a while, I kind of really locked into the idea of it.
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And I think because it was so unexpected, I had this real attitude of like, well, literally, what on earth is there to lose?
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So I'd started applying for jobs quite early with the complete idea in my head of, well, I'm not gonna get a job at this stage, but I really want to get a sense of like, what is the landscape like?
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Like, you know, what is it like to apply for jobs in an industry that I'm not familiar with at all?
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How does tech work?
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What are the interviews like?
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What are the job descriptions like?
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So I was sort of like, you know, almost randomly applying for things just to get this sense of um sense of practice and and have a sense of what was going on.
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And then the field job came a lot quicker than I'd expected.
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So it was almost like suddenly, without having too much time to think about it, I'm now a software engineer.
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And that was it.
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And I think that's almost what did it was the fact that it was there was a speed to it that meant I couldn't doubt myself.
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Yeah.
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And then you found a company that was very open to you as well, that you know, didn't say to you, well, you have to have a computer science degree in a traditional background, and you know, we're not even gonna give you an interview.
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Um, but you they were just very open to your background and the fact that you were like, I know I know what I'm doing, but it it's it's it's funny that so many of our community members say something similar that once somebody gives you that nudge, it's like, you know what, I hadn't even thought about it.
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Like that's what sometimes what people need.
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Like I hadn't even considered a career in tech.
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And we have quite a few members who say, My husband was doing that for a living.
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And then I noticed, you know, a lot of them said in lockdown, actually, because suddenly you're sharing a kitchen table working together.
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And I was like, I've never even considered that as a career.
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And I'm so pleased that somebody did suggest that I could do that, um, and find a company like Field that is uh very open-minded and said, Yeah, come we'd love to have you.
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Yeah, completely.
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I mean, so much of it is about exposure.
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It's being able to see like what is this job?
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You hear vaguely about job titles, um, but you have no concept of what actually happens.
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And you can so easily trick yourself into thinking, well, that's for other people and good for them, but it's not for me.
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Um, and I think one of the things that had really encouraged me when I was applying for field was the job description was written as if they really wanted a junior.
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I think we're all familiar with the thing of junior job descriptions, which also somehow are asking you to have five years of experience and also need you to have all these skills.
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And I remember the job description was written in that way of like, we know you're not gonna have these things.
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That's fine.
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We're asking for juniors.
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What we want is someone who is super curious and super willing to learn and has the skill set that means that they're gonna be able to take on information and they're gonna be able to, you know, begin helping and begin being a useful member of the team quickly.
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But that doesn't mean there's not gonna be a ramp-up period.
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Um and I think that gave me so much confidence to be like, oh, okay, I'm not kind of, you know, being a fool by applying to this.
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I'm not kind of almost going ahead of myself.
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I am in the right place, I'm doing the right thing.
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Um, and this is the expectation that I'm gonna be going in without knowing everything, but I'm going in with the kind of mindset and the ability to learn.
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And that was the key thing.
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Yes.
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Can I imagine as well if you you landed at a different company, uh, say you even made it in, but you didn't, you didn't get that feeling when you did get in that you were in the right place and that you know, you're already feeling a bit like, is this for me?
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Like, you know, I I I know I want to do this and I know I can do this, but landing at the right company that at least when you did get in there as well, made you feel like you belonged there as well.
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You wouldn't have stayed five years, you probably would have gone back and gone, actually, this wasn't for me.
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I I, you know, I'll just I'll go back to being a graphics designer, it's fine.
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God, completely.
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I think about this all the time.
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And I think I was quite conscious of it when I was applying for jobs that I had this sense of like, I knew I was taking a risk, and that, yeah, just one bad experience could really screw that up because you go to one place, it doesn't work out, the hit to your confidence could be so extreme, it could be so hard to be like, okay, back to the drawing board, let's, you know, let's try again.
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And instead you'd think, oh, I've made a mistake.
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Um, so I think I was really conscious when I was applying for things to look out for that kind of language that implied support, that implied that they actually, you know, want to help you get to the stage where you can be a proper contributing member of the team without it, you know, expectation being that you were just going to be able to hit the ground running and absolutely smash it out.
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Um, and I remember specifically when I was doing my um interviews with Field, the fact that I was from a design background was brought up, brought up as a positive thing multiple times.
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You know, it was this kind of thing of like, oh, it's so great that you're able to see things from this angle.
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It's so great that you're able to collaborate with design teams in this way.
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And the fact that it was, you know, actively called out as a positive as opposed to a negative that I wasn't from a computer science background made me immediately feel so excited and secure and like I was bringing something to the team.
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It wasn't like charity that they were helping me out, it was that I was also able to bring Oh, I love that.
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Yeah.
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And you just would have gone in and got off on the right foot entirely, um, instead of feeling like, oh, they gave me a chance and I don't want to blow it because I got given this chance at a company that made me feel like I probably shouldn't be here.
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Um, yeah, I love that.
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That all starts in the interview process and um when you meet uh the TA managers and how they make you feel in that interview.
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Um, because it is always it's a it is a two-way process interviewing the feel that you get for that company um and whether or not you do actually want to accept their offer is another thing.
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You think actually that interview process was dreadful.
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I don't think I would like to work for your company, even if you did get offered the job.
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So um, yeah, it's uh how amazing when you look back sometimes and think, oh, I don't know if I if I'd done something entirely different or where that would have taken me.
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Um some things are very meant to meant to be.
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And because you had mentioned as well um previously that you you had this uh kind of mindset about tech of like I'm gonna hit a wall with it.
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Like I'm I can learn and you know I'm doing it on the side as a hobby, but it's gonna be really difficult at some point, like I'm gonna get to that point and I'm just not gonna be able to go any further.
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Um and almost like it felt too hard, which is I hear that from so many people and what you think of as the tech industry, and you have to have a computer science degree, PhD, further maths is something that comes up a lot.
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Um, what has your been your experience been instead though?
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Now now you're actually in it.
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Like, did you actually hit the wall?
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Oh, it's yeah, it's such a funny thing to think about because completely I remember thinking very clearly at the beginning that tech would be like a hobby level thing for me.
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And then at some point it will naturally increase in complexity to such a degree that then that would be it.
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I would be out of, you know, out of my range.
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And I think I really believe that there was this fundamental difference between learning for the sheer joy of it and then actually having the skills necessary to have this as a career.
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Um, but at some point I realized look, if I'm gonna take this seriously, I'm almost gonna have to like force myself to get rid of those notions.
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You know, you mentioned imposter syndrome earlier.
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We speak about it so often as women in tech.
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And I think I simply decided I wasn't going to feel like that, which I know is way easier said than done.
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And like I said, it was through force.
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This wasn't natural, this was like a complete process of like making myself believe this.
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But I decided I'm going to believe that I belong and that I have everything I need to be able to learn and develop my skills and software development, just like everyone else in this industry.
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Um, and I think I was helped by a couple of things that I decided to really focus on when I was starting to enter uh the workplace.
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One of which was like you said, this is hard, but it's hard for everyone.
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And that's why it's paid well.
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:46.720
Like when I find it hard, it's not because I'm too dumb or because I don't belong or that I'm not good enough.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:52.880
It's because it's a really, really specific technical skill and it's going to take a long time to feel confident in it.
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.759
And, you know, even then, it's still hard.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:56.960
It kind of stays hard.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.400
You just move on to doing more and more complex problems and fixing more complex things.
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.519
And that's a really exciting challenge.
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:07.519
That's what makes the job interesting.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:13.039
It's the reason I've been able to stay in the same role for five years, is that it always changes and there's always something new.
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:17.839
So things feeling hard isn't a scary thing.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.839
It's kind of part of the part of what keeps it exciting.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:32.880
Um, and I think I was also really focused when I was going in that I was going to ask a million questions all the time and I was going to ask for help whenever I needed it.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:41.359
Um, because it is so, so tempting to stay quiet and to assume that people are going to think badly of you in some way for not knowing things.
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:47.839
But you know, most people are lovely and most people really want help and they remember the times when they knew nothing.
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:55.440
Like, you know, even the smartest person in the whole world is not born with some kind of innate knowledge of how React Native works, you know?
00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.759
And why don't I understand all this jargon that's coming with it?
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:01.359
Nobody else does either.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.240
Exactly.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:10.319
There's nothing about it's not about being smart or not smart, it's about there are things that you just simply have to learn and you don't know them until you know them.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:21.119
Um, and if you're in the kind of workplace where you don't feel like you can ask for help, where you you feel like that's a bad thing, then like we were just talking about, it's not the right workplace for you.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:30.400
You know, and I think being able to see that, that it's not you that's kind of struggling because there's something wrong with you.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.119
It's that maybe the environment's not right.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:47.359
Um, so yeah, I think with those things in mind, I was able to kind of decide either there's not a wall, or if there is a wall, I'll figure out somehow to climb it, you know?
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:48.000
Yeah.
00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:49.440
Yeah, I love that.
00:20:49.599 --> 00:21:11.440
And I think as well, something that you figure out when you've been in work a little while, where even if you were in other jobs and you might have stayed there a year, two years, and then you've gone on to somewhere else, sometimes the grass isn't greener anyway when when you do job hot that way and you think I'm not enjoying any here, or I find this, you know, what I'm doing really challenging.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:41.279
And then I it almost dawned on me a few years in where I was like, sometimes you're better to just tackle what you think is hard and to make the hard better, rather than always just keep running from that, because you'll go somewhere else and then you'll, you know, there'll be something at that company that you're not happy with, and you think, oh, instead of just tackling what I should have done and just run towards it, I I went somewhere else and somewhere else.
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.839
And actually, when you do stay in the in the things that you think are challenging and hard, and you do get through them, it's the most rewarding.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:59.759
And they're the places where you end up staying a lot longer because you were challenged at that company, you were given the space and the breathing space to be able to.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.720
Get over that challenge and then see you know how you developed on the other side.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:10.720
Um, but sometimes when we start at work, we're very much like, nope, not getting on here.
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.240
I'm gonna I'm gonna go.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:13.279
That's it.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:14.559
Totally.
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:29.599
And again, it's the confidence thing of when you felt like you've you know not been able to confront the thing that you thought you'd be able to, the hit to your confidence can be so big that then that has such a uh an impact.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:39.039
And it is really hard to tell the difference sometimes between what is something that you should stay and figure out and fight through versus what's something that's fundamentally not right.
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.400
And it's like that's not an easy distinction to make all the time.
00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.720
Um, but being able again to kind of ask those questions of am I being supported here?
00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:55.119
Am I in a place where I'm just too scared to ask questions, but actually they would be so happy to help me if I did?
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:01.440
Or is it I'm in a place where people are, you know, their expectations of me are wrong or the way they're treating me are wrong.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:06.480
Um, but yeah, it's so rewarding to be able to power through those hard bits.
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:18.319
And sometimes I do think, God, if I could have got through that first month or so at this company where, you know, there wasn't really an onboarding process when I joined, it was a small place.
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.319
So you were thrown into the deep end.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.960
It really was like, hey, welcome.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.200
Here's some bugs, go fix them.
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:47.200
And it was obviously terrifying, but because I'd had that mindset, I was able to dive in 100%, ask a million questions, and you know, with a a week or so of working at field, I had code in production, and I was immediately helping real users with real problems.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:49.200
What a confidence boost, though.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:24:08.640
Like being thrown sometimes that that being thrown into the deep end um is so good, and and how much confidence that they had in your ability to do it, and then for you to to actually see that through, that just must have that whole experience must have been, as you said, really terrifying, but really rewarding.
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:12.160
Yeah, I think it set me up for success so well.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:22.480
Like I know other, you know, people who have come up as junior developers who are in places where they weren't writing production code for, you know, six months plus.
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:36.720
And I think it's whilst I can understand having a slower onboarding process, I think it's really, really important to have someone start to feel valued and useful as soon as you can possibly get them to feel useful.
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:45.039
And if that means, you know, spending a lot of time pairing with people and giving a lot of support, I think it just it's so important.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:25:05.279
And you're setting themselves them up for success in such a huge way where if you're sort of sat around as a junior, not sure what you're doing, not sure if you're good enough, not sure if you can ask questions, not sure how you're gonna be able to contribute, I think that process is gonna be so much slower to get you to a stage where you're actively a really, really great member of the team.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:11.279
Yeah, yeah, you're definitely um not going to flourish uh at that company.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:27.680
Um and you I wanted to dip into that a little bit as well, because um you'd mentioned that working at Field had shaped your growth as a front-end developer, um especially in terms of feeling um uh supported and developing your skills.
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:40.079
Um you you know, you said that you got thrown in the deep end at the start, and obviously that really shaped your um experience and and staying there and um moving forward.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:49.039
So um, you know, is there is there anything else about how you have felt developed and um being given that freedom to grow?
00:25:49.279 --> 00:26:05.680
And um, do you also have you know extra learning time at field um and and all of those things that kind of come with working at a company that has really um you know noticed that you have had brilliant potential and obviously have flourished into um a valued employee?
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.599
Yeah, completely.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:23.039
I mean, for one, like aside from again immediately being kind of actively helping from a technical level, I think I was very much valued straight away for the other skills that I brought to the team from having a non-traditional background.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:27.039
I mean, like I mentioned, that was brought up from my very first interviews.
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:46.160
Um, and I think being more design and product-minded, being from a background where I have to care about users and how they think and how they feel and what they experience, I was immediately appreciated for bringing that out uh that angle and for involving myself in those discussions that went beyond the technical.
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:59.279
Like because I find that stuff really interesting, I wiggled my way into so many meetings and calls and discussions about things that were technically outside of my remit, but it's stuff that I think is super cool and interesting and important.
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:01.440
And they were always so happy for that.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:06.880
You know, I was never given a sense that I should be boxed in, boxed into just writing code.
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:16.000
I think it was so encouraged from the beginning of like, well, if you've got this kind of knowledge and you've got this interest, then yeah, come along to this meeting, come along to this discussion.
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:24.480
Let's kind of find a way of having more integration uh between the design and the product teams and the engineering teams.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:31.039
So that was really, really important to me to feel like I don't have to put aside all of these other skills.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.039
It's actually really, really helpful.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.440
And same with my communication skills.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:47.680
Like I was presenting things team-wide and company-wide from so early on, and I think I was really appreciated for my enthusiasm for like collaboration and and communication.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:54.559
And I think because that's not always the expectation for engineers, it felt like it was really seen and encouraged.
00:27:54.799 --> 00:28:07.359
And it's all of that kind of day-to-day stuff, but also at field, I think we're really lucky that you know, the kind of big value of the company that we kind of come back to all the time is about curiosity.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:14.079
You know, we call Field the dating app for the curious, and I think that has like stayed as an internal value so much.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:23.119
Like we have this thing called the curiosity wallet, where you get a certain amount of money every year to spend kind of on any sort of learning opportunity.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.920
So it doesn't have to be directly to do with your job.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.880
It's not like, okay, I'm just going to do a React Native course.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:32.240
It's can kind of be anything that feels inspiring.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:36.799
So people do like, you know, pottery classes and dance classes and language classes.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:53.839
And I think that to me feels like such an important philosophy, again, about how the whole company is it's about kind of that integration between you don't just do your thing, you are a full person who brings so many different experiences and so many different angles to what you do.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:02.960
So why just treat people as if they're only capable of doing one thing and encourage people instead to kind of explore all of these different things and then bring them back in?
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:18.079
Um, and it it really has just created this work environment, which I think is so exciting because people really care, because they can bring themselves fully, they can bring these different thoughts, they can be like, oh my God, I saw this thing the other day and it really made me think about this.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.480
And, you know, I'm really excited about this project, and I kind of had an idea for something.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:34.799
Um, you know, we've got a um a thing at work where if anyone has any sort of feature idea, there is a way of formally proposing that and and requesting that, no matter where in the company you work.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:47.119
Um, and it's all of that I think that kind of just makes you feel excited to bring your full self into uh into work and be able to kind of bring all these different angles.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:48.799
And yeah, that's been huge.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:54.400
So it's been that kind of technical development where I'll do the classic things, the conferences, the the whatever.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:30:04.079
But having all of that other stuff be not just accepted, but really, really encouraged, I think has been such a key thing to my development.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:16.480
And and to keep you learning other things, even if they're not work-related, is so wise because in tech, you always have to be learning, and that takes a certain type of person.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:21.119
It's not like I've left university, I got my degree, that's it.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:42.960
Like tech is changing so often that you have to stay in that mindset of I want to try new things, and like you said, whether or not it's pottery or a dance class, that takes a certain person to think, I'm open to learning and trying new experiences, um, rather than just, well, I got the job and now I'll do the training around that job.
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:53.920
But actually, um it's gonna be it's gonna feel a bit of a chore for me every time I need to learn something new for that job because that's not I'm not very open-minded.
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:55.680
Um yeah, completely.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:09.920
I mean, I think about this a lot when you know I've had a lot of different um women who have, you know, friends of friends or or whatever, who have come to me since knowing that I work in um in tech to be like, hey, I think I'm really interested in coding.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:11.680
Like, what advice would you give?
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:18.000
And I kind of see quite a lot of questions from people who seem to really not like the learning part.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.799
You know, they're like, how do I stay motivated during learning?
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:22.319
I'm really struggling with this.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:27.039
And I often have to kind of say, like, unfortunately, learning's a really big part of the job.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:33.279
You know, it's not the kind of job where you you you do it, you do your course, you qualify, and then that's it.
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:35.279
It's it's kind of the whole job.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:38.079
And for me, that's the best.
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:39.200
That's so exciting.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:45.599
That means that you feel like you're never getting stuck, you're never plateauing, you are kind of constantly challenging yourself.
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.920
But obviously, for some people, fair enough, that just does not interest them at all.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.440
Um, and you're completely right.
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:59.279
I think having a workplace that really encourages that of like, no, you can't just come in with the skills you had and then sort of just coast off that.
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.720
You have to be building, you have to be finding interest in things.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:04.640
It's yeah, exactly as you said.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:05.599
I think it's really wise.
00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:07.920
I think it benefits the company so much.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:12.960
Um, and it benefits the people in the company, like it's also really fun, you know.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:20.240
It's and it's exciting and it kind of it motivates you loads when you have opportunities like that.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.519
Yes, exactly.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:32.319
Um, I always think of it as like uh when you're at a company that you really enjoy learning and coming up with new things and thinking, I've come up with this idea, how are we gonna make that work?
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:42.880
You almost get this like brain tingle where like my thing sometimes I'm like, I had an idea, I was washing my hair and I had no idea how are we gonna make this work.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:51.519
If I didn't enjoy what I did coming up with ideas and how do we come over challenges, I wouldn't be washing my hair thinking about how are we gonna get over that challenge.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:58.640
I would just shut off and not keep thinking about how are we gonna do this and and uh how are we gonna solve that problem?
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:00.559
You just shut off after work.
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.599
But it it and also you do need boundaries, obviously, you do need to shut off at that point.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.839
But when you have that moment where you're like that would be a great idea.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.640
How are we gonna how are we gonna execute that?
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:13.759
Like, wouldn't that be cool?
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:26.079
Let's test that, and knowing that it's okay to test, even if it goes wrong, because we'll learn from that, but to be in an environment when you can where you can come in and say, Yeah, I had a really good idea.
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.480
I was I was washing my hair and I had a great idea.
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:33.920
Like, how can we try and implement that into what we do day to day?
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:40.799
Um, it makes such a difference to your mental health and work environment and just everything.
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:48.319
And then when you don't have that, when you go into a company, you don't have that, it's almost like you immediately know that's not for you.
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:50.160
Not not going to be here long.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:51.519
Could not agree more.
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.880
And I think there are so many different things that can support that.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:01.440
Like one of the things that I can't imagine now living without is the flexible working that we have at field.
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:08.559
I mean, especially because we're an international team, so we work on so many different time zones, um, and it's it's fully remote.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:30.639
That sense of being able to be like, you know what, I'm stuck on something, but it doesn't matter because I'm gonna go for a walk and I'm gonna do my laundry, and maybe I'll have a bit of a longer lunch than normal, and maybe I'll, you know, do all of these other things, that kind of like pressure that's then lifted, that then can clear your mind and mean that you can go back to something and be like, oh, I've got it.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:31.360
I've got it.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.079
Whilst I'm on my little walk, that's when it came to me.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:41.199
And I do think God we limit people so much when we don't give them that kind of opportunity to take a step back.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:57.119
Um, when you are just nonstop in an office long hours all the time and kind of having to do that thing a little bit of performing work, you know, when you're in an office and you see people sort of like rolling around on their chairs and clicking around on their laptops, but you can see they're not really doing anything.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:03.119
And it's like, of course they're not doing anything, because no one can walk work non-stop for just hours and hours and hours.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:09.519
You need those kinds of moments of coming away from something a little bit, having a chat, having a move around.
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:13.440
Um, and it also just makes you so much more enthusiastic.
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:32.880
Like I am willing to put in extra time when there's like a really big important project because I also know that there's times when I'll finish early because there's an England match on, or because I want to go see a friend, or you know, that kind of like give and take where it's like I know that my time is respected.
00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:39.360
That means that I'm so happy then to put in, you know, the extra effort and the extra time when it's when it's needed.
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:45.840
Yes, rather than nine to five, I've shut off, I'm not thinking about anything after that time.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:51.039
And you are right, in the office, it's more of a um counting down the hours.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:57.039
I'll pop out in the afternoon to walk around the block and get a coffee, but it's not really enough time.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.000
And then I'm just counting down when can I go home?
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:19.199
And then, you know, I when uh we did hybrid, it was kind of the things you would do in the office would be different than the things you would do at home because I knew I was less motivated in the office and I would just sort of go through the motions on those days, whereas the other days I was like, Well, these are my actual days where I can get things done.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:32.639
Um so yeah, having the having somebody trust you as well that you can actually, you know, do your job and um still uh uh go above and beyond and um still do really well.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:39.039
It makes so much of a difference when you are trusted um in your own abilities, definitely.
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:49.679
Um and I wanted to ask your opinion as well about um now you're in it and you know and you know that it is um not quite what you thought it was gonna be, and it is creative.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:56.400
Um what would you say to other creatives who think tech is too intimidating or that they wouldn't belong in it?
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:01.039
Oh my god, I mean just the key thing is just do not box yourself in.
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:05.519
Like, how boring to do that to yourself when there's this whole world out there.
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:10.559
So why tell yourself that you can only engage in certain parts of it?
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:20.320
I think it really, really helps to see the links between things like you know, creativity is all about problem solving, software is all about problem solving.
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:38.320
And like I mentioned earlier, I think those links can be easier to see when you start to, you know, actively seek out the really cool things that like some creative coders are doing, people that are kind of working on things that aren't necessarily what you would associate with traditional tech.
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.519
Um, you know, you've got to find the parts of tech that interest you.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:46.960
Like I knew when I was applying for jobs, I couldn't work in fintech or whatever.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:52.320
And you know, shout out to FinTech, that would be the perfect industry just for some people, but it just wouldn't be for me.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:54.960
I would find it boring, I'd find the product boring.
00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:03.760
And I knew that the product that I was working on was really key because it's you're not just doing software development, you're doing software development for a specific product.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:13.920
Um, and it needed to be something that I found really exciting and that I cared about, you know, at field, I really care about our users and I really care about the experiences that they have.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:27.039
And that makes when you're in the pits of solving some kind of horrific bug so much better when you have that kind of immediate association with like what will the impact be on the actual people that use use this app.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:32.719
Um, and I think it's also so important to value the skills that you already have.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:38.480
You know, there are so many software developers out there who will not have the skills that you already have.
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:43.519
Um, and often skills that you'll have without even really having to try that hard to have them.
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:59.440
You know, the longer I work as an engineer, the more 100% sure I am that being product-minded, caring about the end user, collaboration, communication, all of these things are just as important as coding.
00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:10.239
You know, if you're a software developer that can just write code, even if it's the best code in the world, if you don't have those other things, you are just so, so limited as an engineer.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:16.159
Um, and being a creative person, you're coming from a different angle, you're coming with a different approach to other people.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:22.400
And that's going to be so beneficial, like to the team and then also to the to the user at the end of the day.
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:32.960
So yeah, I think it's about going in, knowing that you have so much to give and potentially so much to get back if you manage to find the right environment.
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:34.400
Yeah, definitely.
00:39:34.559 --> 00:40:14.079
And that sense of purpose uh that you just summed up per per um perfectly there, that you uh care about your users and you know, you see them using it at the end and and having that just being part of those users' journey as well is just make such a difference to your day-to-day that you like you said, you know, there are some industries where you might be doing good things, but you might not really notice the the actual um how the users are using it at the end of the day and um being you know part of people's um lives and their experiences.
00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:28.559
Um but that's so great at Fields that you get to be a part of that um and know that you you were part of the uh cog in in the um in in their little machine as well and their journey along the way and their relationships as well.
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.559
Um must be so rewarding uh to be a part of that.
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:41.119
Um so it really does make a difference which company you pick and uh where you decide to stay as well and and develop.
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:42.480
Yeah, completely.
00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:50.960
I mean, like I have really close friends who have met their partners on field, or we get messages about people who have had babies with people they've met on field.
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:57.360
You know, these are those things that are like it almost feels insane to think wow, this is like part of that.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:05.119
Yeah, those days that I'd be sat there so annoyed because I can't figure out this thing, and it's like, and then I figured it out, and then someone had a baby.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.400
It's like amazing, it's just unbelievable.
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:15.920
And it is, it's so exciting, and it's just exciting being at a place which is kind of part of a cultural conversation as well.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:28.719
Like, I love when I go to parties and things and I speak to people about field, and people are so excited, like they have so many questions, and they're like, Oh my god, I've been on field dates, and it's just really, really fun.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:42.800
And I think being at a place for as long as I have, from the time when it was a lot smaller, I've really felt like I've had a hand to some degree in kind of shaping what it is uh at this stage, and that's such a cool feeling.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:48.800
Um, so yeah, I think that's what I would really, really advise is really think about that.
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:52.880
And you know, we were talking earlier about that idea that interviews are two-way streets.
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:57.840
And I understand, especially when you're trying to break into a new industry, that it doesn't feel like that.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.760
It feels like you're begging for a job and like please take me seriously.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:08.719
But you know, it is so important that you really do think about that about where am I going to be able to feel excited?
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.280
Where's learning gonna feel really good for me?
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:16.480
Where am I gonna make a product that I can feel proud of or excited by?
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:19.280
Um, and yeah, keep that in mind.
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:25.360
Don't see it as they're doing charity work by extending the privilege of working in tech to you.
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:30.559
You're bringing this amazing set of skills and this amazing background.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.760
So find the place that's gonna be able to support you in that and and allow you to flourish.
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:36.639
Yeah.
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:41.679
Well, that is amazing positive advice to end this on because we are already out of time.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:46.960
I could keep picking your brains um on uh being a creative and working in tech.
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.480
Um, but we are already out of time.
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:49.679
So thank you so much, Ella.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.159
It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today.
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:53.199
Thank you so much.
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:54.639
Oh, it's been a delight.
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:55.519
Thank you so much.
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:57.119
And yeah, just love to yap.
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:04.800
So anytime anyone has any questions about being a creative in tech, you just hit me up because it's yeah, it's an absolute pleasure.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:05.599
Thank you.
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:13.760
We'll include uh a link for you as well so our users can reach out to you um if they have any questions or align with your story, which I'm sure a lot of them will.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:15.039
Um, but thank you.
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:18.719
And for everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for joining us.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:20.559
And we hope to see you again next time.