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Welcome to the Shared Security Podcast, the longest running cybersecurity and privacy
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show for actual humans.
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No jargon, no hype, just honest analysis from industry veterans who've seen everything
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and survived it.
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Each week we break down the stories that matter, expose the nonsense that doesn't, and give
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you the tools to stay safe in a world where everything is connected and nothing
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is guaranteed.
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This is Shared Security.
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What if the price you see at the grocery store, on a delivery app, or an online ad is not
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really the price, but it's your price?
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So this week we're talking about surveillance pricing, the use of personal data, behavioral
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profiles, location shopping history, income signals, household assumptions, and AI-driven
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targeting to decide what price or discount different people see for the same product.
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Now New Jersey just passed a bill aimed at banning grocery surveillance pricing.
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Consumer Reports is warning about loopholes, and we've seen a Papa John's campaign that
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used Instacart and streaming ad data to target people when they were likely running
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low on groceries.
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So this isn't just dynamic pricing in the airline ticket sense, it's pricing based on what companies
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think they know about your life, when you're hungry, what your household needs, and maybe
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how desperate you are for a pizza.
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And joining me for this conversation is my co-host, Mr. Scott Wright.
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Hey, I'm always desperate for a pizza, man.
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You know, that is the one weakness I think most people have.
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If you see a good pizza ad show up on your streaming service, right, and you happen to
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be hungry and in the mood for pizza, what's the most likely thing you're going to do?
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Yeah.
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Could be streaming ads all day for pizza for me.
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Yes.
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So how are you doing, Scott?
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Not bad, Tom.
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How are you?
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I'm great.
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I'm great.
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Too bad Kevin couldn't make it today, but this is now my second week at Secure Ideas.
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Yes, you are a member of the Borg.
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Well, I'll be sure to tell Kevin that we are the Borg, but yes, this is my second week
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of being professionally evil.
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You don't look any different.
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I know.
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I looked exactly the same.
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I know.
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Yeah.
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Well, it's been great.
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I've really enjoyed meeting the team and already digging into a lot of things in
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the company, so I believe I'm leading the consulting team.
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Awesome.
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That's great.
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Exciting.
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I'm really happy to be working at Secure Ideas.
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It's been great so far.
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And yeah, so maybe next time.
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I'll have to resist.
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I know Kevin's been asking me over and over again, but I've been resisting.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So maybe one day we'll start a Canadian office in Ottawa, right?
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Well, sure.
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Yeah.
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Why not?
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Yes.
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Why not in the city that Fun forgot?
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Anyway.
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Oh, man.
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Yeah.
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I had to bring that up.
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I thought it was something that you maybe just think of, but I can't remember this.
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I thought this would be a good story for telling Tom about the city that Fun forgot.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Maybe next time.
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But yeah, we're talking about surveillance pricing on this episode.
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And first I wanted to start by, and I mentioned this in the intro, was this is different
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than dynamic pricing that we hear about like with airlines, right?
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They're obviously adjusting their price based on supply and demand and the season and all
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of these things.
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Or you go to Walmart, and I don't know if you've noticed, Scott, that they all have
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these digital tags now.
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These old price tags, yeah.
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Yeah.
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And that is essentially dynamic pricing where they can just change the price as they
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see fit based on demand or based on other factors.
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But that's not actually targeting you specifically.
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No.
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And that's where...
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Interesting.
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Just a quick little interesting side note about those little dynamic price tags.
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I was actually commissioned like 10 years ago to do a risk assessment on those tags
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because you can imagine people trying to hack them, right?
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Yeah.
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Anyone.
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Side story.
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Yeah.
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I always think about hacking those things would be a little more difficult because
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in the back end, they actually have rights because that's what you're scanning
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the UPC code at checkouts, and so that has to match what's in the system.
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Right.
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But if a customer takes a picture of the price showing $3.99 for a car battery, right, $3.99,
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and then you take that picture and you say, well, this is what it said on the tag, and
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we have a lot of stores will honor what's shown on the tag.
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That's a good point.
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Yeah.
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Going to a competitor, right?
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And saying, hey, it was cheaper at Walmart, give me the price, and yeah, some people
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try to do that.
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All kinds of shenanigans.
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Oh, yeah.
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But what we're talking here is the surveillance pricing, which means a company or a third party
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has information about you, and it is influencing the price that you pay, and it's getting
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down to either you being in a certain demographic of people.
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So I think there's been some examples, and we'll link some of these in the show
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notes of past things like Tinder, the dating app.
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They offered higher prices for older people than younger people.
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Like, that's just a simple example of based on your demographics, they're going to have
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some type of custom pricing for you.
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But where it gets interesting is, and I like the Papa John's example, which was about
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Instacart and the partnership they had with Instacart, and they would be getting
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shopping data from Instacart of what people were purchasing, when they were
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purchasing it, location information, and those types of things, and they had some
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algorithms that could determine you might be hungry for a pizza during this time
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based on your shopping history and through, I think it was like NBC Universal, the
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streaming app, it would know you are watching based on your data and who
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you are matching that data up and then serve you ads for pizza based on that data.
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Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, especially in the streaming media world, because
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they're constantly recommending stuff for you, so they have the algorithms to
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decide how to present stuff to you based on your habits, right, from just
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viewing, and it makes sense they could take different data about you and say,
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well, instead of recommending certain content or shows to watch, let's put up
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different ads for them. And that's, it almost, to me, starts to sound like the
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minority report. Yeah, the movie is Tom Cruise going through the stores and
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seeing all these ads flashing up. That's going to get annoying real fast,
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right? Yeah, yeah, it is. And I think it just opens up a conversation
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about you don't know what companies or who is doing this, right? So the
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transactions you're making on a daily basis when you purchase products, I
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mean, even just think about Amazon, right, like they could easily, I mean, 100%
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are probably using doing some type of surveillance pricing. I mean, just
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looking at the price of things and it's more than just, oh, hey, we see
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that you've bought this thing five times in a row. Now, Amazon, when they're
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right now, will tell you, hey, you should sign up for a subscription and we'll
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give you a small discount, you know, because this is something you
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reorder all the time. But there's nothing stopping them from taking that
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further, you know? And I think there are certain, I guess, challenges or
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obstacles to them doing this, you know, to the nth degree, because in a lot of
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markets, you kind of have to publish a list price. But in cases where you've got
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a loyalty program, for example, and you've signed up for things and you
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might get extra points or what amounts to a discount, I think it's
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probably much more workable that even for fixed price items, based on your
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behavior, they could offer you a different amount of points and turn that
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into a certain value. And all it comes down to is a value exchange, right? It's
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your giving up your personal data about, you know, your habits and things
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you like in exchange for reduced value or reduced costs on things you're
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buying. So in a loyalty card sense, I don't think it's a real problem. I
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think it's like you said earlier, it's a real capitalist model. There's no real
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issue that where I think there becomes a huge issue is when it's done without
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your knowledge or consent and you're tracking people's location data or, you
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know, any other things that they might be doing inadvertently and not
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knowing that they're being tracked in some way. And I can imagine, for
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example, take a grocery store that buys data about their customers, you
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know, if they know your address or your phone number, they can probably buy a
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whole bunch of other data about you that will help them in some ways target you
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or whatever. But what if they start gathering additional information
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about you and then augment the two or combine the two together? Maybe
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that's worth something for them to sell without your knowledge, right? So it
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gets into a gray area for sure when you look at what they could be doing
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with that data or collecting information about you without your knowledge.
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Mobile apps are just part of everyday life now. Banking, healthcare,
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shopping, entertainment, you name it. And with that comes a lot of trust
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because users are putting their personal data directly into your app. But
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here's the reality. Mobile apps are a growing target. A recent survey
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found that 72% of organizations experienced a mobile app security
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incident last year. And 92% say threats are only increasing. And
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the way attackers are going after apps is pretty sophisticated.
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They're reverse engineering them, modifying them and redistributing
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fake versions through phishing campaigns, side loading and even
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third party app stores. So from a user's perspective, everything
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can look completely legitimate. That's why taking a proactive
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approach to mobile app security really matters. You want to stay
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ahead of these threats not react after the damage is done. This
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is where Guard Square comes in. They provide advanced protection
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for both Android and iOS apps, along with automated security
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testing to catch vulnerabilities early and real time threat
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monitoring. So you can actually see what's happening out there.
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If your mobile app is critical to your business, and it
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probably is, this is something worth paying attention to. You
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can learn more at guard square.com. That's guard square.com.
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Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think you mentioned just like
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grocery stores and grocery pricing, I think is the, the big
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area that we are seeing this right now. And in fact, that
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some of the laws, like I mentioned, New Jersey and
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California, and there's other states in the US, they're
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trying to pass these types of laws banning surveillance
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pricing or severely limiting it because any grocery stores out
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of any type of shopping that you do, they encourage you to
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sign up for these loyalty cards in the spirit of discounts,
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right? Like, you're going to get these discounts if you give
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us, you know, use your loyalty card. And I don't think we
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often think about the power that the grocery store chains
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have. And now, especially with AI, like they can now take all
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of your data. And I mean, that's the the best thing
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about AI, right, is they can correlate large data sets
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together. And now if you imagine like the thousands and
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thousands of customers that a big grocery store chain has, the
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powerful data that they have about people shopping habits
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when they shop what they purchase, you know, and I think
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it's an opportunity and maybe this is some research that that
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we could do is what are the privacy policies around these
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loyalty cards, because I would be willing to bet that
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there is probably some disclosure about I would hope so
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that of how your data is being used and maybe what third
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parties that data is being sent to or correlated or or
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those things. And I'm not saying stop, you know, using
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loyalty cards, grocery stores. I just think that it's an
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area that this surveillance pricing is is kind of that's
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what we're seeing the examples, the laws that are being
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passed are kind of focused around that and the food
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industry. And I think it's because, well, it's an
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essential thing, right? People have to eat. And what a way
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to increase your capitalistic, you know, market share, I
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guess, is based on people's hunger.
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Yeah, you know, I think from a practical point of view,
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you know, like you said, we're not saying stop using
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loyalty cards or whatever. But in a practical sense, you
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probably if you do have a loyalty card, you know, maybe
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we'll do this in a study at some point and publish some
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interesting information about the policies of these
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things. But, you know, when you when you realize that
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you're using a program like that, there's probably a
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privacy policy or maybe some privacy options, you know, in
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your online account for that thing, you should go in and
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have a look at and maybe there are things in there
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that grant them the right to sell your data to other
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people and you don't want that. So that's probably the
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most practical bit of advice I can take out right now for you.
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Yeah, and this this goes way back. I remember, you know,
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Scott, we've we've probably talked about this on the
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podcast. And I remember giving a talk, I think it was
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way back in like 2012 2013 at Infosec World about just
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the surveillance cameras that were first coming out and
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how they could identify you and link you back to
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Facebook, right, to pull your Facebook profile. And then
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you would walk into these stores and you would all
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of a sudden get a message on Facebook that, hey, thanks
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for visiting. Here's 10% off your next purchase. And
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you don't see a lot of that anymore. Like everything is
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more like opt in. But I also it just makes me
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wonder, like, we've been talking about this stuff
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for years. Yeah. And I don't think it's gotten
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any better. Really, I think maybe we're just a
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little more used to it. We don't notice it as much. But
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there's still I still get stories, people telling me
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stories every month about being somewhere, having not
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done any searches, but just in the room where they talked
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about something or maybe they just drove down a street
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where there was a certain vendor and all of a
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sudden they're getting ads for that, you know, that
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organization. So clearly the ad networks are walking a
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fine line or maybe even in the gray area around
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using behavioral information and advertising. And I
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think that's kind of where this kind of you have to
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focus and say, are these things do we want them to
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be legal or not? Yeah, because there are extremes to
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all of these things. And I think none of these
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companies intentionally want to be creepy about it.
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And I think that was, you know, it kind of in the
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article that I think Bruce Schneier had linked
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about the Papa John situation, but it still
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comes across as creepy.
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I don't even know if I buy, I'm gonna take
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Kevin's thing. I don't know if I buy that
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they're not trying to be creepy. I think in a lot
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of cases, you know, the executive's compensation
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depends on how they do the next month, right? So
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that's right. We can scare a few people or
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entice a few people with a new with a pizza. You
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know, you can imagine ads, not only are they
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being sort of served dynamically to you and
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ad for a pizza, imagine a dynamic AI generated
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video that comes on as an ad for you, like the
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video is created for you dynamically, right,
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rather than just selected from a library of ads.
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And that's going to get really creepy. I don't know
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how we're going to deal with that.
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00:16:51,670
Well, I, I, yeah, I think you're right. I think
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it is coming. And I think it is depending on
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the services that you're using, that may
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00:17:00,350
already be here. We just may not be noticing
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it because it is on that borderline, not
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creepy factor. And, but with AI now, I
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could easily see a world, like you said, with
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Minority Report, the movie, right? Like where
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00:17:14,350
you're walking into a gap, I think, was that
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scene and they're scanning your eyes and they
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know all of your previous purchases. And, you
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know, I mean, that is kind of the, the
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capitalism utopia.
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The merchants, I guess it is. Yeah. Yeah. So
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we'll see where this goes. But I think our
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advice for our listeners is, you know,
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assume that these loyalty programs and
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shopping apps, I mean, they are data
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collection systems. Like at the end of the
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day, they are still collecting data about
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you and your shopping habits. And, and of
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course, you may be getting discounts and
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coupons for signing up for these things.
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But just be aware that your data could
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00:17:55,710
also be used from a surveillance pricing
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perspective. And you may not know it,
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00:17:59,870
right? But you may want to do your
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own kind of research of like, you know,
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compare prices, whether you're logged
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into your app with your loyalty
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program versus logged out to see what
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pricing that the general public might get.
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You might be surprised to see, right,
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that there may be a difference in that
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price. And you may be actually paying a
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higher price depending on your data and
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the program. It's something to just
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check out. And the other thing I'd say
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too is just, you know, continue to
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reduce your location sharing within
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00:18:31,350
your applications. You know, does
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00:18:33,550
your loyalty app need access to your
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00:18:36,270
location? Do you need to give it? How
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many people are in your family and all
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of this personal data, right? When you
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sign up for these things. Be very
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careful about that. I'm always a big
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fan of just putting in like fake
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00:18:50,950
information into those things. You
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know, so I'm not giving away where I
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really live or my real address or
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things like that. But that's one
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approach, right? Because we know we
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can't stop all of this. And there
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are places we legitimately want to
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shop at. And we want to purchase
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00:19:05,710
products from. And there's companies
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we want to support. But it's just
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something we need to be aware of that
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00:19:12,310
the price could be changing depending
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on who you are. It's a really
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interesting, I think it's a great
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time for this episode, just in terms
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of opening people's eyes to, you
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00:19:19,470
know, yeah, I remember the loyalty
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program. And I, you know, I know
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they're gathering my personal data,
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00:19:23,790
but wow, I didn't know they're
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00:19:26,790
doing this, right? So it's a
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00:19:29,430
really good eye opener. Yeah, so
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00:19:30,990
if you're listening this or
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00:19:32,630
watching this episode on YouTube,
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00:19:34,470
let us know. Like, have you
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00:19:36,870
encountered a situation where you've
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00:19:40,670
seen different pricing for stores or
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00:19:42,950
online shopping or grocery stores and
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00:19:45,070
use have suspected that surveillance
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00:19:46,590
pricing was something that was
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00:19:48,110
happening. We'd love to hear from you.
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00:19:49,430
Love to hear your stories. So you
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00:19:51,750
can either comment on YouTube or send
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00:19:53,750
us an email feedback at shared
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00:19:55,350
security dot net love to hear from
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00:19:58,110
you. And we can we can mention that
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00:20:00,070
in the next episode. Yeah. And if
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00:20:01,350
while we're talking about feedback,
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00:20:03,510
like to just put in a little bit of a
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00:20:05,630
plug for the book I am working on
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calls the digital legacy tree. And
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as you can imagine, if you're
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familiar with the concept of
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00:20:12,630
digital legacy, it's you know, what
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00:20:15,070
happens when you die and your all
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00:20:16,990
your accounts, you know, go into
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00:20:18,430
limbo, who has access to them,
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00:20:20,990
et cetera. But it's more than
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00:20:23,350
just your passwords and two factor
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00:20:25,110
authentication. And as I do research
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on this, it becomes really
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00:20:27,990
intriguing that the number of
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00:20:29,910
people I talked to who say, you
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00:20:31,710
know, it's not just the password,
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00:20:33,750
like I wish I knew how this person
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00:20:34,950
lived their life, you know, what's
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00:20:36,630
the context that this was used in.
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00:20:39,670
And so that's the kind of stuff
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that I'll be talking about. So I'm
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00:20:42,070
interested in hearing anybody's
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00:20:44,910
stories if they want to share an
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00:20:47,390
anecdote anonymously or however
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00:20:50,510
about situations where people
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00:20:53,670
have passed away and it was hard
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00:20:55,030
to either get in their accounts or
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00:20:57,190
figure out what what to do with
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00:20:58,710
them, you know, I have
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00:21:01,310
personally actually last time I
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00:21:03,390
pruned my bit warden, it was over a
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00:21:05,190
thousand accounts I have. Yeah,
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00:21:07,350
things right. And they're not all
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00:21:08,870
going to be stuff that you want your
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00:21:11,190
authorized decision maker after you
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00:21:13,310
die to have to go through. So I think
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00:21:14,630
it's another area where we need to
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00:21:16,470
focus. So love to hear people's
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00:21:18,270
feedback. Again, feedback at shared
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00:21:20,590
security.net. Yeah, yeah. Thank
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00:21:21,830
you for mentioning that, Scott.
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00:21:24,110
And do you still have that page up?
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00:21:26,230
I think we had a link to yes, I
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00:21:28,190
do. Yeah, we'll link that in the
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00:21:30,390
show notes for for our audience.
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00:21:32,790
But if you want to see the great
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00:21:34,190
important project that Scott is
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00:21:36,070
working on with the book, you can
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00:21:37,430
find out more information about
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00:21:38,750
that through that link.
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00:21:42,110
All right. Well, thanks everyone
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00:21:44,430
for listening. And until next
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00:21:46,870
time, stay safe, stay secure and
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00:21:46,870 -->
00:21:48,150
stay private. Thank you for
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00:21:48,150 -->
00:21:50,030
listening or watching. If you like
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00:21:50,030 -->
00:21:52,510
this episode, hit subscribe, share
425
00:21:52,510 -->
00:21:53,270
it with your friends and
426
00:21:53,270 -->
00:21:54,990
colleagues or jump into our
427
00:21:54,990 -->
00:21:57,350
community at shared security net
428
00:21:57,350 -->
00:21:58,830
slash supporter to keep the
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00:21:58,830 -->
00:22:00,830
conversation going. Thanks again
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00:22:00,870 -->
00:22:02,470
and we'll see you next week for
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00:22:02,470 -->
00:22:04,070
another episode of shared
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00:22:04,070 -->
00:22:04,790
security.
