00:00:00
Speaker 1: Today on Shared Lunch, we're once again sitting down with Victoria Devine.
00:00:03
Speaker 2: My history is.
00:00:04
Speaker 1: Such that I got into like $ 40, 000 worth of consumer debt, right? She's the force behind She's On The Money, Australia's number one business podcast and a best-selling book. Property is honestly off the table for so many now, like it's just not an option. Any finance bro might look at it and be like, oh, like.
00:00:20
Speaker 2: That's a pretty basic portfolio.
00:00:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, but... Lookie, I'm going to retire rich, so I'm all good with that. Obviously, women are smarter. Like, that's the answer, isn't it? Like, conversation done. Victoria Devine is joining us today from Narm, Melbourne, on the lands of the Wunjari people. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present.
00:00:40
Speaker 3: Investing involves risk. You might lose the money you start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor. We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest. Everything you're about to see and hear is current at the time of recording.
00:00:54
Speaker 2: Welcome, Victoria.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: So great to have you back on Shared Lunch again. How are you going?
00:00:59
Speaker 2: Thank you. I love this. I just love the concept of Shared Lunch.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: Like in the fact that we're basically recording it over my lunchtime is perfect.
00:01:07
Speaker 2: It's so good, eh?
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Hey, we've got heaps of topics to cover, but we're really going to focus a lot on women and investing. Are you noticing more women entering the investing market and investing for the first time, especially as part of your She's On The Money community?
00:01:19
Speaker 2: Absolutely we are. And I think you are too. Like it's my favorite part of it.
00:01:23
Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing more than that in both of our collective communities. Like most of my community is women. And in yours, I feel like women are feeling really safe with your product, really safe with your platform and And so I feel like I'm seeing so many more women just embracing investing. And I feel like the bigger change I notice isn't just more women investing. It's that investing is a conversation now. It's not a taboo topic. It's quite normalized. And historically, the conversations that I was having inside She's On The Money were like, oh, am I ready to invest?
00:01:58
Speaker 2: Do I know enough? Oh, what if I lose everything? And now the conversation... it's.
00:02:05
Speaker 1: The nuance has changed it's oh what ETFs should I be picking or like what ETFs are you researching or oh V how much should we be investing per month and like how do I structure you know my investing plan around my other money goals and like that's telling me that women are not only investing but prioritizing it and I feel like that's meaningful shift and I think we've moved from women asking for permission to invest to women asking, well, how can I invest well? And like, that's to me so exciting.
00:02:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:02:38
Speaker 1: So, and, and what I also love too is how many women are like, how can I get my kids into this? How can I get the wider family into it? Like there's such a, um, there's such a actually seen as the force to actually drive the change in terms of how people are thinking about money and finance and investing and their friend circles and their family. Yeah, there seems to be a real kind of galvanizing. So what do you think is driving that? You mentioned safety, like at the start, like there's a, you know, there's this feeling that it's safer in terms of not, you know, investing involves risk, but more like, oh, I can do this.
00:03:08
Speaker 2: This is for me.
00:03:08
Speaker 1: What do you think are the other factors that have really started to drive this change?
00:03:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I would love to take credit. I'd love to be like, girl, it's conversation. It's stuff like this.
00:03:19
Speaker 1: But I think it's a mixture of like three things. It's the products being more accessible. It's the platform that we can invest on being phenomenal. And it's the conversation that we're having and they all come together. And investing used to be this, I guess, it used to have an enormous like psychological and then practical amount of friction. Like you'd be like, oh, I can see that I should invest, but my heart is telling me no. And I'm really anxious. And like brokerage was so damn expensive and platforms used to feel so intimidating. And the media, like I remember people being like, oh, the ASX, like that's just something they say on the news, isn't it?
00:03:59
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, do you know what it is?
00:04:01
Speaker 1: And they just didn't because financial media was just jargon. And I guess culturally in both Australia and New Zealand, and honestly, probably broader, Investing was often presented to us in a way that it was something that was done by men in suits who sat at desks with six monitors. And now you can start with like teeny tiny bits of money, like literally as little as one cent and use a gorgeously designed app.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I check my Sharesies app on a daily basis.
00:04:35
Speaker 1: I should check it less because I tell my community, you don't need to check it every day.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: But I do. And the experience is just so nice.
00:04:43
Speaker 1: And like, I can buy a diversified investment as I'm popping to the bathroom after this episode, right?
00:04:51
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: And I think representation and financial education have been really important, but technology then supports that because I could talk about it to the cows come home, but then there's no practical application that makes people feel excited about using it because it's if you're just seeing women like me and like you, Brooke, talking so openly about ETFs and portfolios and investing, like, sorry, investors are going to often stop feeling like it's specialist activity. But then if they go to the platform, they're going to be like, oh no, they've made it sound complicated. They must be really smart. This isn't for me. Like that could be a friction point where they tap out. And so for me, it's just all three of those things have come together at this point in time to kind of marry and make it So easy, right? It's actually really interesting how you mentioned those three things in particular, because when we started Sharesies, those were three things we really wanted to eliminate. Like we wanted to eliminate the price barrier, like people thinking you needed like hundreds of thousands, if not tens of thousands to be an investor. And that's why we, you know, launched the ability for minimum investment to be one cent because we were like, we need to remove that as a barrier. Then the next one was the jargon, like how can we just use everyday language? And like you, you know, I think the community you've created and the increase in financial education has been amazing for that too. Like where people do now know more what an ETF is, which is cool because that is a really key part of understanding investing, but also just talking like a human. And then the third we found was branded out. Like people felt like, oh, this isn't for me. And as you mentioned, that description you had of like what an investor was, like if you searched in Google for, and went investor, it would show you that the man that you kind of helped conjure up before. And now, you know, we've got, and when we started, most investors were male and over 60 and living in big cities. And that's really fundamentally changed. So it's really cool to see that shift, but still heaps more to do. Part of the shift too, is that those that are under 40 are actually investing more. Have you been finding that too? And what do you think has been driving that change?
00:06:56
Speaker 3: 100%.
00:06:56
Speaker 2: And I saw that data as well.
00:06:58
Speaker 1: I think it was, like under 40s now account for 66% of first-time investor activity. And like, that's so sexy because that's so many new people. And like, I think two things are happening here at the same time. Women, women, women are making up a very large proportion of those first-time investors. And as they should, like, it's not, oh, we want more women in this because it's fun.
00:07:26
Speaker 2: Like, we are half the population. We also need.
00:07:29
Speaker 1: To care about our financial wellness and our financial security. And so I feel like we're getting on board aggressively as we should, but first time investors are also getting a little bit younger, which to me as an ex-financial advisor is so exciting because you've got more time on your side, like compounding has got like even more time to work.
00:07:50
Speaker 2: And I just think that that's really exciting.
00:07:53
Speaker 1: And I guess anecdotally, Women or younger women are absolutely having conversations about investing much earlier than previous generations did.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: And I see this literally daily. People are in my community, V, I'm 18.
00:08:06
Speaker 1: I have my first job. What do I do? That's not what we were doing even 10 years ago. I talk to my mom's generation all the time and they're always like, oh, I wish I had this information when I was younger.
00:08:20
Speaker 2: But the reality is.
00:08:23
Speaker 1: This generation is really disheartened Because for someone in their 20s looking at Australian property prices and even New Zealand property prices, like I was in New Zealand last week and your.
00:08:34
Speaker 2: Property is insane. What the heck? Like I was thinking, oh, it might be cheaper in New Zealand. No, you guys are getting classic stitch up. Absolutely not.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: But investing is kind of a way that our generation and younger generations is still able to access wealth creation. because property is honestly off the table for so many now. Like it's just not an option in the nicest possible way. There's a lot of conversations we could have. I am literally a mortgage broker and I own a mortgage broking company. And my job is to get first homeowners into their first homes. Like I am obsessed with it, but increasingly we are seeing people come to us where the best thing for their financial situation is to not purchase property.
00:09:22
Speaker 2: Like it's going to put them behind.
00:09:24
Speaker 1: So- I guess it's not a bad thing, but there are a few things that do drive it, right? Yeah, I... like another reason when we were starting shares is so much of the media was, you know, millennials can't buy houses because they're spending all their money on smashed avocado. And it seems like that sentiment's there again now, but we're like spending, you know, buying matcha, lattes or whatever, you know.
00:09:46
Speaker 2: No, it's now about the iced coffee. Haven't you seen that? Like turning up.
00:09:49
Speaker 1: To a job interview with an iced coffee is the new, I think, smashed avocado.
00:09:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems to be that way.
00:09:54
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, there are ways to be able to like build wealth over time. And hopefully that does help people get into a home later in life if that's what they choose. But they don't have to anymore. Either there is that alternative to wealth creation. Talking about creating wealth, I remember when I was studying at university, I was doing my master's in finance and I was getting pressured so much by all of the other dudes in the class and fellow society at the time to become a trader because there's recent research out there how women make really great investors. And mostly because we take more of a buy and hold approach. And this was the research at the time. And it's interesting to see in that recent research that, you know, women are more likely to buy exchange traded funds. And men are more likely to buy shears. And I'm intrigued, like, what's your take on that? Obviously, women are smarter. Like, that's the answer, isn't it? Like, conversation done. But I think that there's like, I think immediately you go, well, okay. And the research that you're talking about when you were at uni is the same research that I had when I was at uni. And we don't have to talk about how long ago that was. But often that narrative was paired with people saying, because women are more conservative, because women are scared to make decisions, because they're going to take more time to consider their decisions. And the data today is saying that women are more likely to buy an ETF instead of a direct share. And I think that we don't want to accidentally see that and push the same framing that we used to have because buying an ETF does not automatically mean that someone is really timid. It doesn't mean, you know, that they don't understand direct share investing. Like it can mean so much more. It can mean I really understand diversification and the value of it. I don't believe that I can consistently pick winners individually and I don't want my investing journey to kind of become a second job, a second job. And I think historically, it was about women avert risk, right? It was a risk aversion strategy. And now for me, I'm seeing women pick this because of efficiency. Like I was a financial advisor that had a direct share portfolio.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: And now I do not.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: I have satellite direct shares and my core portfolio is two ETFs.
00:12:17
Speaker 2: And I just look at it and I go, I'm so well diversified.
00:12:20
Speaker 1: Any finance bro might look at it and be like, oh, that's a pretty basic portfolio. Yeah, but low key, I'm going to retire rich.
00:12:27
Speaker 2: So I'm all good with that.
00:12:30
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I feel like Comsex data on that shows the behavior, but it doesn't show you the conversation and why women are choosing ETFs. And I'm just looking at it from my perspective of having the, I guess, depth of she's on the money, women are often picking it because they're like, wow, that's instant diversification. Or, oh, I don't want to have to manage a portfolio every day. I'm just going to pick an ETF that aligns to my values. And there's a manager that makes sure that anything that's underperforming gets booted out.
00:13:01
Speaker 2: Money win.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: So I think that, yeah, sometimes we describe women as being really risk averse when they're actually, you know, what we are actually observing is a really big preference for good diversification.
00:13:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also saw this great research from the New Zealand Actuary Society and it really dived into the difference between risk aversion between men and women when it came to investing. And what it actually found was women aren't.
00:13:29
Speaker 2: More risk adverse.
00:13:30
Speaker 1: We typically have less, like we have less access to capital and that might be because, or invest money because we typically earn less, typically have lower subannuation balances, typically.
00:13:43
Speaker 1: Would be the ones that would take a career break to support elderly or other, you know, family. And if men had the same constraints, they would have the exact same risk appetite. And I thought that was really interesting anyway in terms of kind of trying to debunk that risk aversion thought rather than actually, like you're saying, efficiency, ease of mind, but also actually just with what we've got, we're thinking about the allocation process the same way.
00:14:10
Speaker 3: 100%.
00:14:11
Speaker 1: And I mean, also to back women in general for a hot second, if you spent your entire life earning less, taking more career breaks, and I guess knowing that you are likely to retire with less money than a man, perhaps it's not actually irrational to be really thinking about risk and being a little bit more conservative about that. Because we do, as you said, have less. We are working with less. The So maybe being a little bit more conservative about risk, if that's what we were choosing, is actually a good thing. So you mentioned women are half of the population. So imagine if half of all investing was managed by a woman, how do you think they would.
00:14:57
Speaker 2: Change the market?
00:14:58
Speaker 1: What do you think, how do you think it would change what's funded? And yeah, intrigued on your take. The thing I'm most excited about, about it isn't that women are changing the stock market. It's the investment industry having to change because women are in the market. Like it's not because the stock market is going to change fundamentally.
00:15:16
Speaker 2: Like it works.
00:15:18
Speaker 1: And I mean, we could debate that till the cows come home, but you know, it also, for me, I think, okay, household decision-making like more women building independent investment portfolios means more women are accumulating capital into their own names and understanding markets and participating in long-term wealth creation and And I think it's not going to change the share market or the stock market or the ASX or whatever you're trading on. But I think it does change the markets that are there because that's different.
00:15:51
Speaker 2: Who they're serving, right? Yeah, exactly.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: And I mean, if half your customers are women, investing platforms and financial education and product design and marketing, like they have a much stronger commercial incentive to stop treating women as some kind of niche.
00:16:06
Speaker 2: Like women aren't niche.
00:16:07
Speaker 1: We are a very big point, like part of the industry, but yet we don't hear how to invest for a man. We always hear how to invest as a woman though. And somehow we swallow that and think that that's normal and that, you know, we're, we're being leaned into, but as you know, an investment is a good or a bad investment, like irrespective of your gender. So for me, I look at it and go, yeah, we need more support, but like, if we got there, it would change significantly. Can you imagine the commercial incentive if they knew that half their genuine customers were women?
00:16:42
Speaker 2: That's fun. I'm intrigued.
00:16:45
Speaker 1: What do you think would be the most effective intervention that we could put in to help drive the change needed? Childcare.
00:16:52
Speaker 2: More childcare.
00:16:54
Speaker 1: Like Georgie Dent, who you guys are in New Zealand. she actually is Australian.
00:17:02
Speaker 2: She's amazing.
00:17:03
Speaker 1: She has a group called the Parenthood and she addressed our government this week and spoke about how much unpaid labor there is and how many, like, you know, she spoke really eloquently about the difference in like hours of childcare.
00:17:20
Speaker 3: Sorry.
00:17:21
Speaker 1: She spoke very eloquently about the difference in hours of school and hours of work and if both parents because in Australia we as a default get four weeks of annual leave if both parents took their annual leave to care for their children not together the difference that they would have to find to actually look after their children and both still maintain their roles is 108 days of additional child care among that family And somehow the government here in Australia is just assuming that we have an invisible parent or a grandmother or, you know, a family friend, all the funds to spend on a nanny or childcare. If we could fix that, if the government could see even just in Australia, childcare as a tax deductible cost, like for me, my childcare costs are directly related to me being able to generate an income. So for me, I think it's probably not what you were expecting me to say, but childcare is the thing that I think if we could knock that on the head and we could get that, women could participate more freely and actually create a lot more.
00:18:30
Speaker 2: In this industry.
00:18:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of ways that how we work can better suit families and, you know, the kind of shared load, but also, yeah, childcare can be incredibly expensive and kind of make it, well, is it even worth working? Even if they really want to, you know, so interesting. When you talk about like focus on what you can control, what do you think that is for someone that's investing? I think it's really about working out what what your investing amounts are, what they mean for the future, and whether they are reasonable for the lifestyle you have. I think a lot of, and we've just identified that there are a lot of first time investors joining the market and joining platforms. And that's so damn exciting, but it's also so disheartening if you join and then you start seeing either your portfolio go down or you realize that your contributions are financially.
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Stretching you at home.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: And you're like, Maybe this isn't for me. Stop right there because it absolutely is. We need to work out a strategy that's actually going to work for you. Because if you said, oh, Brooke, I've sat down and I've done my budget and I've worked out, I can afford $ 150 a month to invest.
00:19:42
Speaker 2: Fantastic.
00:19:43
Speaker 1: But is that actually what you're spending every month? Like, is that actually what your budget is allowing? Or is that what your budget is allowing on paper? Like, have we actually done a little budget and cashflow.
00:19:55
Speaker 2: Of what we are genuinely spending?
00:19:57
Speaker 1: Or are you doing a paper budget of, oh, I reckon we spend $ 200 on groceries a week. And then going back to the drawing board and realising, you forgot to account for Uber Eats and you forgot to account for the, you know, shop where you ran out of milk and bread and you had to pop home, like pop into the supermarket on the way home and those things add up. And then all of a sudden that's $ 450 a week and you didn't see it coming. So I think having our finger on the pulse when it comes to how many dollars leave our account is is so important to be able to commit to your investing goals so that future you never misses out. Like if you can do that for yourself and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and why you're making these decisions and going, okay, well, how do I get into the mindset that this $ 150 a week or a month or whatever you've decided is your number, you're not missing out because it's going into your investing portfolio. You're actually creating the life that future you deserves. And I think that if we can reframe it, especially right now, it does spark a little bit more light at the end of the tunnel. And right now, stuff can feel really heavy. And I, yeah, I hear you on that. It's like, the habit is so important. No matter how much putting away, putting away and having that habit is really key. And I've never bumped into somebody who's been investing for a long time, who hasn't gone, oh, I wish I've invested more early, you know, or just keep my habits.
00:21:20
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker 1: Like I want to go back in time. Girl, there's so much I would do differently. And most of it is actually investing more money. Hey, on that, what's one belief about money that you have changed your mind on? Like I used to think that money was really scarce and that it was, you know, hard to come by.
00:21:39
Speaker 2: And when you got it, you should save it. But I didn't save it. Let's be honest.
00:21:42
Speaker 1: I was spending it because I was quite you know, I was a bit privy to instant gratification, you could say. But I think I've now shifted more into, especially after my history is such that I got into like $ 40, 000 worth of consumer debt, right? And that is what kickstarted my financial journey. And I realized that what I was learning, everybody should learn. And I got quite aggressive about that. And we find ourselves on this podcast, right?
00:22:11
Speaker 2: I now think that money is genuinely abundant. but you have to work for it.
00:22:16
Speaker 1: So I don't have a scarcity mindset, but I think my idea around, you have to get a good job and you have to go to uni to earn a good amount of money, to have a good career. I reckon that's probably a bit outdated as well. And I've definitely changed my mind. I look at my team at She's On The Money. Most of them haven't gone to university. And then I'm sitting here with degrees that I don't even use. I think the world is a very different place. And yeah, that's probably my thought pattern.
00:22:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about there too is like wealth can be created and it can be created through owning, ownership really, ownership of your businesses, employee share schemes or investing, housing. I think that all helps. So Yeah, thank you so much, Victoria, for joining us today. It's been so great to catch up with you again.
00:23:06
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. A pleasure, as always.
00:23:09
Speaker 1: And thank you to all of you who are listening or watching this, wherever you listen or watch your favorite podcasts. Please do like, subscribe, follow, and stay tuned for the next Shared Lunch.
Speaker 1: Today on Shared Lunch, we're once again sitting down with Victoria Devine.
00:00:03
Speaker 2: My history is.
00:00:04
Speaker 1: Such that I got into like $ 40, 000 worth of consumer debt, right? She's the force behind She's On The Money, Australia's number one business podcast and a best-selling book. Property is honestly off the table for so many now, like it's just not an option. Any finance bro might look at it and be like, oh, like.
00:00:20
Speaker 2: That's a pretty basic portfolio.
00:00:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, but... Lookie, I'm going to retire rich, so I'm all good with that. Obviously, women are smarter. Like, that's the answer, isn't it? Like, conversation done. Victoria Devine is joining us today from Narm, Melbourne, on the lands of the Wunjari people. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present.
00:00:40
Speaker 3: Investing involves risk. You might lose the money you start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor. We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest. Everything you're about to see and hear is current at the time of recording.
00:00:54
Speaker 2: Welcome, Victoria.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: So great to have you back on Shared Lunch again. How are you going?
00:00:59
Speaker 2: Thank you. I love this. I just love the concept of Shared Lunch.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: Like in the fact that we're basically recording it over my lunchtime is perfect.
00:01:07
Speaker 2: It's so good, eh?
00:01:08
Speaker 1: Hey, we've got heaps of topics to cover, but we're really going to focus a lot on women and investing. Are you noticing more women entering the investing market and investing for the first time, especially as part of your She's On The Money community?
00:01:19
Speaker 2: Absolutely we are. And I think you are too. Like it's my favorite part of it.
00:01:23
Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing more than that in both of our collective communities. Like most of my community is women. And in yours, I feel like women are feeling really safe with your product, really safe with your platform and And so I feel like I'm seeing so many more women just embracing investing. And I feel like the bigger change I notice isn't just more women investing. It's that investing is a conversation now. It's not a taboo topic. It's quite normalized. And historically, the conversations that I was having inside She's On The Money were like, oh, am I ready to invest?
00:01:58
Speaker 2: Do I know enough? Oh, what if I lose everything? And now the conversation... it's.
00:02:05
Speaker 1: The nuance has changed it's oh what ETFs should I be picking or like what ETFs are you researching or oh V how much should we be investing per month and like how do I structure you know my investing plan around my other money goals and like that's telling me that women are not only investing but prioritizing it and I feel like that's meaningful shift and I think we've moved from women asking for permission to invest to women asking, well, how can I invest well? And like, that's to me so exciting.
00:02:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:02:38
Speaker 1: So, and, and what I also love too is how many women are like, how can I get my kids into this? How can I get the wider family into it? Like there's such a, um, there's such a actually seen as the force to actually drive the change in terms of how people are thinking about money and finance and investing and their friend circles and their family. Yeah, there seems to be a real kind of galvanizing. So what do you think is driving that? You mentioned safety, like at the start, like there's a, you know, there's this feeling that it's safer in terms of not, you know, investing involves risk, but more like, oh, I can do this.
00:03:08
Speaker 2: This is for me.
00:03:08
Speaker 1: What do you think are the other factors that have really started to drive this change?
00:03:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I would love to take credit. I'd love to be like, girl, it's conversation. It's stuff like this.
00:03:19
Speaker 1: But I think it's a mixture of like three things. It's the products being more accessible. It's the platform that we can invest on being phenomenal. And it's the conversation that we're having and they all come together. And investing used to be this, I guess, it used to have an enormous like psychological and then practical amount of friction. Like you'd be like, oh, I can see that I should invest, but my heart is telling me no. And I'm really anxious. And like brokerage was so damn expensive and platforms used to feel so intimidating. And the media, like I remember people being like, oh, the ASX, like that's just something they say on the news, isn't it?
00:03:59
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, do you know what it is?
00:04:01
Speaker 1: And they just didn't because financial media was just jargon. And I guess culturally in both Australia and New Zealand, and honestly, probably broader, Investing was often presented to us in a way that it was something that was done by men in suits who sat at desks with six monitors. And now you can start with like teeny tiny bits of money, like literally as little as one cent and use a gorgeously designed app.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I check my Sharesies app on a daily basis.
00:04:35
Speaker 1: I should check it less because I tell my community, you don't need to check it every day.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: But I do. And the experience is just so nice.
00:04:43
Speaker 1: And like, I can buy a diversified investment as I'm popping to the bathroom after this episode, right?
00:04:51
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: And I think representation and financial education have been really important, but technology then supports that because I could talk about it to the cows come home, but then there's no practical application that makes people feel excited about using it because it's if you're just seeing women like me and like you, Brooke, talking so openly about ETFs and portfolios and investing, like, sorry, investors are going to often stop feeling like it's specialist activity. But then if they go to the platform, they're going to be like, oh no, they've made it sound complicated. They must be really smart. This isn't for me. Like that could be a friction point where they tap out. And so for me, it's just all three of those things have come together at this point in time to kind of marry and make it So easy, right? It's actually really interesting how you mentioned those three things in particular, because when we started Sharesies, those were three things we really wanted to eliminate. Like we wanted to eliminate the price barrier, like people thinking you needed like hundreds of thousands, if not tens of thousands to be an investor. And that's why we, you know, launched the ability for minimum investment to be one cent because we were like, we need to remove that as a barrier. Then the next one was the jargon, like how can we just use everyday language? And like you, you know, I think the community you've created and the increase in financial education has been amazing for that too. Like where people do now know more what an ETF is, which is cool because that is a really key part of understanding investing, but also just talking like a human. And then the third we found was branded out. Like people felt like, oh, this isn't for me. And as you mentioned, that description you had of like what an investor was, like if you searched in Google for, and went investor, it would show you that the man that you kind of helped conjure up before. And now, you know, we've got, and when we started, most investors were male and over 60 and living in big cities. And that's really fundamentally changed. So it's really cool to see that shift, but still heaps more to do. Part of the shift too, is that those that are under 40 are actually investing more. Have you been finding that too? And what do you think has been driving that change?
00:06:56
Speaker 3: 100%.
00:06:56
Speaker 2: And I saw that data as well.
00:06:58
Speaker 1: I think it was, like under 40s now account for 66% of first-time investor activity. And like, that's so sexy because that's so many new people. And like, I think two things are happening here at the same time. Women, women, women are making up a very large proportion of those first-time investors. And as they should, like, it's not, oh, we want more women in this because it's fun.
00:07:26
Speaker 2: Like, we are half the population. We also need.
00:07:29
Speaker 1: To care about our financial wellness and our financial security. And so I feel like we're getting on board aggressively as we should, but first time investors are also getting a little bit younger, which to me as an ex-financial advisor is so exciting because you've got more time on your side, like compounding has got like even more time to work.
00:07:50
Speaker 2: And I just think that that's really exciting.
00:07:53
Speaker 1: And I guess anecdotally, Women or younger women are absolutely having conversations about investing much earlier than previous generations did.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: And I see this literally daily. People are in my community, V, I'm 18.
00:08:06
Speaker 1: I have my first job. What do I do? That's not what we were doing even 10 years ago. I talk to my mom's generation all the time and they're always like, oh, I wish I had this information when I was younger.
00:08:20
Speaker 2: But the reality is.
00:08:23
Speaker 1: This generation is really disheartened Because for someone in their 20s looking at Australian property prices and even New Zealand property prices, like I was in New Zealand last week and your.
00:08:34
Speaker 2: Property is insane. What the heck? Like I was thinking, oh, it might be cheaper in New Zealand. No, you guys are getting classic stitch up. Absolutely not.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: But investing is kind of a way that our generation and younger generations is still able to access wealth creation. because property is honestly off the table for so many now. Like it's just not an option in the nicest possible way. There's a lot of conversations we could have. I am literally a mortgage broker and I own a mortgage broking company. And my job is to get first homeowners into their first homes. Like I am obsessed with it, but increasingly we are seeing people come to us where the best thing for their financial situation is to not purchase property.
00:09:22
Speaker 2: Like it's going to put them behind.
00:09:24
Speaker 1: So- I guess it's not a bad thing, but there are a few things that do drive it, right? Yeah, I... like another reason when we were starting shares is so much of the media was, you know, millennials can't buy houses because they're spending all their money on smashed avocado. And it seems like that sentiment's there again now, but we're like spending, you know, buying matcha, lattes or whatever, you know.
00:09:46
Speaker 2: No, it's now about the iced coffee. Haven't you seen that? Like turning up.
00:09:49
Speaker 1: To a job interview with an iced coffee is the new, I think, smashed avocado.
00:09:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems to be that way.
00:09:54
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, there are ways to be able to like build wealth over time. And hopefully that does help people get into a home later in life if that's what they choose. But they don't have to anymore. Either there is that alternative to wealth creation. Talking about creating wealth, I remember when I was studying at university, I was doing my master's in finance and I was getting pressured so much by all of the other dudes in the class and fellow society at the time to become a trader because there's recent research out there how women make really great investors. And mostly because we take more of a buy and hold approach. And this was the research at the time. And it's interesting to see in that recent research that, you know, women are more likely to buy exchange traded funds. And men are more likely to buy shears. And I'm intrigued, like, what's your take on that? Obviously, women are smarter. Like, that's the answer, isn't it? Like, conversation done. But I think that there's like, I think immediately you go, well, okay. And the research that you're talking about when you were at uni is the same research that I had when I was at uni. And we don't have to talk about how long ago that was. But often that narrative was paired with people saying, because women are more conservative, because women are scared to make decisions, because they're going to take more time to consider their decisions. And the data today is saying that women are more likely to buy an ETF instead of a direct share. And I think that we don't want to accidentally see that and push the same framing that we used to have because buying an ETF does not automatically mean that someone is really timid. It doesn't mean, you know, that they don't understand direct share investing. Like it can mean so much more. It can mean I really understand diversification and the value of it. I don't believe that I can consistently pick winners individually and I don't want my investing journey to kind of become a second job, a second job. And I think historically, it was about women avert risk, right? It was a risk aversion strategy. And now for me, I'm seeing women pick this because of efficiency. Like I was a financial advisor that had a direct share portfolio.
00:12:10
Speaker 2: And now I do not.
00:12:11
Speaker 1: I have satellite direct shares and my core portfolio is two ETFs.
00:12:17
Speaker 2: And I just look at it and I go, I'm so well diversified.
00:12:20
Speaker 1: Any finance bro might look at it and be like, oh, that's a pretty basic portfolio. Yeah, but low key, I'm going to retire rich.
00:12:27
Speaker 2: So I'm all good with that.
00:12:30
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I feel like Comsex data on that shows the behavior, but it doesn't show you the conversation and why women are choosing ETFs. And I'm just looking at it from my perspective of having the, I guess, depth of she's on the money, women are often picking it because they're like, wow, that's instant diversification. Or, oh, I don't want to have to manage a portfolio every day. I'm just going to pick an ETF that aligns to my values. And there's a manager that makes sure that anything that's underperforming gets booted out.
00:13:01
Speaker 2: Money win.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: So I think that, yeah, sometimes we describe women as being really risk averse when they're actually, you know, what we are actually observing is a really big preference for good diversification.
00:13:13
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also saw this great research from the New Zealand Actuary Society and it really dived into the difference between risk aversion between men and women when it came to investing. And what it actually found was women aren't.
00:13:29
Speaker 2: More risk adverse.
00:13:30
Speaker 1: We typically have less, like we have less access to capital and that might be because, or invest money because we typically earn less, typically have lower subannuation balances, typically.
00:13:43
Speaker 1: Would be the ones that would take a career break to support elderly or other, you know, family. And if men had the same constraints, they would have the exact same risk appetite. And I thought that was really interesting anyway in terms of kind of trying to debunk that risk aversion thought rather than actually, like you're saying, efficiency, ease of mind, but also actually just with what we've got, we're thinking about the allocation process the same way.
00:14:10
Speaker 3: 100%.
00:14:11
Speaker 1: And I mean, also to back women in general for a hot second, if you spent your entire life earning less, taking more career breaks, and I guess knowing that you are likely to retire with less money than a man, perhaps it's not actually irrational to be really thinking about risk and being a little bit more conservative about that. Because we do, as you said, have less. We are working with less. The So maybe being a little bit more conservative about risk, if that's what we were choosing, is actually a good thing. So you mentioned women are half of the population. So imagine if half of all investing was managed by a woman, how do you think they would.
00:14:57
Speaker 2: Change the market?
00:14:58
Speaker 1: What do you think, how do you think it would change what's funded? And yeah, intrigued on your take. The thing I'm most excited about, about it isn't that women are changing the stock market. It's the investment industry having to change because women are in the market. Like it's not because the stock market is going to change fundamentally.
00:15:16
Speaker 2: Like it works.
00:15:18
Speaker 1: And I mean, we could debate that till the cows come home, but you know, it also, for me, I think, okay, household decision-making like more women building independent investment portfolios means more women are accumulating capital into their own names and understanding markets and participating in long-term wealth creation and And I think it's not going to change the share market or the stock market or the ASX or whatever you're trading on. But I think it does change the markets that are there because that's different.
00:15:51
Speaker 2: Who they're serving, right? Yeah, exactly.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: And I mean, if half your customers are women, investing platforms and financial education and product design and marketing, like they have a much stronger commercial incentive to stop treating women as some kind of niche.
00:16:06
Speaker 2: Like women aren't niche.
00:16:07
Speaker 1: We are a very big point, like part of the industry, but yet we don't hear how to invest for a man. We always hear how to invest as a woman though. And somehow we swallow that and think that that's normal and that, you know, we're, we're being leaned into, but as you know, an investment is a good or a bad investment, like irrespective of your gender. So for me, I look at it and go, yeah, we need more support, but like, if we got there, it would change significantly. Can you imagine the commercial incentive if they knew that half their genuine customers were women?
00:16:42
Speaker 2: That's fun. I'm intrigued.
00:16:45
Speaker 1: What do you think would be the most effective intervention that we could put in to help drive the change needed? Childcare.
00:16:52
Speaker 2: More childcare.
00:16:54
Speaker 1: Like Georgie Dent, who you guys are in New Zealand. she actually is Australian.
00:17:02
Speaker 2: She's amazing.
00:17:03
Speaker 1: She has a group called the Parenthood and she addressed our government this week and spoke about how much unpaid labor there is and how many, like, you know, she spoke really eloquently about the difference in like hours of childcare.
00:17:20
Speaker 3: Sorry.
00:17:21
Speaker 1: She spoke very eloquently about the difference in hours of school and hours of work and if both parents because in Australia we as a default get four weeks of annual leave if both parents took their annual leave to care for their children not together the difference that they would have to find to actually look after their children and both still maintain their roles is 108 days of additional child care among that family And somehow the government here in Australia is just assuming that we have an invisible parent or a grandmother or, you know, a family friend, all the funds to spend on a nanny or childcare. If we could fix that, if the government could see even just in Australia, childcare as a tax deductible cost, like for me, my childcare costs are directly related to me being able to generate an income. So for me, I think it's probably not what you were expecting me to say, but childcare is the thing that I think if we could knock that on the head and we could get that, women could participate more freely and actually create a lot more.
00:18:30
Speaker 2: In this industry.
00:18:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of ways that how we work can better suit families and, you know, the kind of shared load, but also, yeah, childcare can be incredibly expensive and kind of make it, well, is it even worth working? Even if they really want to, you know, so interesting. When you talk about like focus on what you can control, what do you think that is for someone that's investing? I think it's really about working out what what your investing amounts are, what they mean for the future, and whether they are reasonable for the lifestyle you have. I think a lot of, and we've just identified that there are a lot of first time investors joining the market and joining platforms. And that's so damn exciting, but it's also so disheartening if you join and then you start seeing either your portfolio go down or you realize that your contributions are financially.
00:19:24
Speaker 2: Stretching you at home.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: And you're like, Maybe this isn't for me. Stop right there because it absolutely is. We need to work out a strategy that's actually going to work for you. Because if you said, oh, Brooke, I've sat down and I've done my budget and I've worked out, I can afford $ 150 a month to invest.
00:19:42
Speaker 2: Fantastic.
00:19:43
Speaker 1: But is that actually what you're spending every month? Like, is that actually what your budget is allowing? Or is that what your budget is allowing on paper? Like, have we actually done a little budget and cashflow.
00:19:55
Speaker 2: Of what we are genuinely spending?
00:19:57
Speaker 1: Or are you doing a paper budget of, oh, I reckon we spend $ 200 on groceries a week. And then going back to the drawing board and realising, you forgot to account for Uber Eats and you forgot to account for the, you know, shop where you ran out of milk and bread and you had to pop home, like pop into the supermarket on the way home and those things add up. And then all of a sudden that's $ 450 a week and you didn't see it coming. So I think having our finger on the pulse when it comes to how many dollars leave our account is is so important to be able to commit to your investing goals so that future you never misses out. Like if you can do that for yourself and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and why you're making these decisions and going, okay, well, how do I get into the mindset that this $ 150 a week or a month or whatever you've decided is your number, you're not missing out because it's going into your investing portfolio. You're actually creating the life that future you deserves. And I think that if we can reframe it, especially right now, it does spark a little bit more light at the end of the tunnel. And right now, stuff can feel really heavy. And I, yeah, I hear you on that. It's like, the habit is so important. No matter how much putting away, putting away and having that habit is really key. And I've never bumped into somebody who's been investing for a long time, who hasn't gone, oh, I wish I've invested more early, you know, or just keep my habits.
00:21:20
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
00:21:21
Speaker 1: Like I want to go back in time. Girl, there's so much I would do differently. And most of it is actually investing more money. Hey, on that, what's one belief about money that you have changed your mind on? Like I used to think that money was really scarce and that it was, you know, hard to come by.
00:21:39
Speaker 2: And when you got it, you should save it. But I didn't save it. Let's be honest.
00:21:42
Speaker 1: I was spending it because I was quite you know, I was a bit privy to instant gratification, you could say. But I think I've now shifted more into, especially after my history is such that I got into like $ 40, 000 worth of consumer debt, right? And that is what kickstarted my financial journey. And I realized that what I was learning, everybody should learn. And I got quite aggressive about that. And we find ourselves on this podcast, right?
00:22:11
Speaker 2: I now think that money is genuinely abundant. but you have to work for it.
00:22:16
Speaker 1: So I don't have a scarcity mindset, but I think my idea around, you have to get a good job and you have to go to uni to earn a good amount of money, to have a good career. I reckon that's probably a bit outdated as well. And I've definitely changed my mind. I look at my team at She's On The Money. Most of them haven't gone to university. And then I'm sitting here with degrees that I don't even use. I think the world is a very different place. And yeah, that's probably my thought pattern.
00:22:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about there too is like wealth can be created and it can be created through owning, ownership really, ownership of your businesses, employee share schemes or investing, housing. I think that all helps. So Yeah, thank you so much, Victoria, for joining us today. It's been so great to catch up with you again.
00:23:06
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. A pleasure, as always.
00:23:09
Speaker 1: And thank you to all of you who are listening or watching this, wherever you listen or watch your favorite podcasts. Please do like, subscribe, follow, and stay tuned for the next Shared Lunch.
