Serial Killer Documentary - Joseph Franklin - Prison Interview

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You are about to enter the criminal mindscape of Joseph
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Paul Franklin.
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Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
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Well, I was.
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You wouldn't call that hunting them? Hunting them and shooting them.
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On a mission to start a race war in America,
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Franklin ruthlessly murders 20 people.
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We're asking him to open up and talk about who
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he is, his crimes, why he did what he did.
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One thing we can tell you at this time that
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we're positive of is that there have been two people
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shot here at this location.
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Larry Flint, the publisher of Hustler magazine. He and his
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lawyer were walking down the sidewalk when somebody on the
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street opened fire.
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His methods vary, making him nearly impossible to catch.
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We know that they were shot by a sniper.
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The rifle is a high-powered rifle with a scope on it.
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Remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot?
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You could see that they were young.
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The well-known Klan's leader said, when I go out to
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kill rattlesnakes, I don't make any difference between little rattlesnakes
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and big rattlesnakes, because I know the little ones will
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grow up and bite me when they get big. So
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I looked at blacks the same way.
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I totally understand that he will be in control of
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this interview, and that is the way.
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I'm planning it.
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Now, a veteran FBI profiler enters death row and steps
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into the criminal mindscape.
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These interviews for me are fascinating.
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They are absolutely the most intriguing experience that I've.
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Had in the FBI.
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Mary Ellen O'Toole spent her career at the FBI, including
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15 years in the Bureau's famed profiling unit.
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I work specifically on profiling serial murder cases and assisting
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law enforcement all over the world in how to understand
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these offenders and how to make sense out of their crimes.
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I think Joseph Paul Franklin will be very interesting to
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talk to because if you scrape away the racism, he
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is still a cold-blooded, predatory individual who was driving around
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the country shooting and killing people. And so to say
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that that's the reason that he killed is very difficult
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for me to accept. Interviews like this are extremely helpful.
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Will they identify all the answers?
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No.
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But they will get insights.
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Into why certain behavior at the crime scene, why not
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certain behavior. Who are we looking for? What were they
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like 20 years ago? What was their family like? How
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were they deciding on their victims? Why did they kill
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some victims and some they didn't? He doesn't have to
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talk to me.
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He does not have to open up to me. He
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can walk out of that interview any time.
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By way of background, I'm a retired FBI agent after
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about 28 years as an agent. Oh, yeah?
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But you learned a lot during that 28 years.
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Yes, a lot.
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And actually, the last 15 years I've spent back in
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the FBI's profiling unit.
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Yeah.
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And we're located at the FBI Academy.
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And most recently, my area of expertise was in the
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serial killer unit.
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Well, I don't claim to be a serial killer, though.
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Okay, and I want to talk to you about that.
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I don't put myself in that category.
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Okay. Can you tell me what your idea of a
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serial killer is?
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Well, I've read in the news, the definition in the newspaper,
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you know. Sure. And it says that.
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Somebody who commits various killings with cooling off periods in between.
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Tell me why you don't fit into that definition of
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a serial killer.
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Let's say Ted Bundy, who was out when you were out.
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I don't feel like I have anything in common with
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the dude, you know.
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I'm just a completely different type of person, you know.
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A lot of these other criminals, you know, these serial killers,
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they were just into one thing, strangling women and stuff
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like that. See, they've been trying to associate me with
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the scumbags like Ted Bundy who were killing innocent women,
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you know, and take everything political away from my case.
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Over and over again, you've been hearing on the newscast,
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serial killer of this, serial killer of that, to try
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to incite hatred against people like me, you know.
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I wasn't out for my own pleasure. I was motivated
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by love of the white race.
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Joseph is a serial killer, and he's different from other
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serial killers, just like they're different from him.
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There's no one profile of a serial killer. So you
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have cases where you were a sniper, and then you
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have events where you were not a sniper. So you
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really have both.
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Yeah.
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In 1977, Joseph Paul Franklin, age 27, is a versatile criminal,
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a successful shoplifter and bank robber, who is ready for murder.
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He claims to have found his very first victims somewhat
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spontaneously in.
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Madison, Wisconsin.
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He was in the parking lot of a shopping center.
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He had his. 357 Magnum tucked alongside of him.
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His first case in Madison, Wisconsin was kind of an
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unplanned thing.
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What put you in that parking lot that day of
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the shooting?
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Well, I was driving around and I saw a couple
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of Young girls standing at a bus stop.
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I pulled over and picked them up. I would often
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do that.
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I would just pull over and see a couple broads
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waiting at a bus stop and offer them a ride.
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They said, are they going to this mall? So I
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gave them a ride to that mall.
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And a pretty tall black dude, about 6'2, was sitting
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in the car with a white girl. And I beeped
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at him because he was driving too slow. He then
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began traveling about five miles an hour just to aggravate me,
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you know.
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So I sat on the horn then, you know. Tee,
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real loud. So he stopped his car in front of me,
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got out of the car and began walking toward me.
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He had this real scowl on his face at first,
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you know, walking toward me. So without even thinking, I
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just reached down there with my right hand and whipped
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out my. 357 Magnum with a six-inch barrel. And then
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when he saw the gun, the scowl turned into a surprise,
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you know.
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And then.
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Then he just closed his eye like that and just
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keeled over.
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That was a very risky thing for you to do.
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There you were in a shopping center, and it was.
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Daylight, and there was a whole bunch of people.
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Why did you shoot the woman in the car?
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I figured, well, I'm against interracial couples. She was one
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half of an interracial couple, you know. I thought, well,
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I might as well get both of them, because I'm
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going to probably get caught for this.
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So I shot her and sped out of the parking lot. Man,
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I was burning rubber, man. You know, trying to get
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out of there.
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And luckily, there was a whole bunch of lights all
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in front of this mall, you know. And every single
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one of them turned green for me. I got on
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the interstate and took off and got out of Madison, Wisconsin.
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It's pretty amazing that that's the first time that you
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committed murder. That's a pretty cold-blooded thing to do to
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a complete stranger. Joseph identifies a first murder. which is
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a double murder at point-blank range. Joseph has very good
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recall of that incident. Broad daylight in a parking lot
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of a shopping center. My question is, is that in
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fact the first incident, or is that the first one
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that he.
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Wants to talk about? What were you feeling at the
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time you pulled that trigger?
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Fear, you know.
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I feared if I get into a fight with that guy,
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I'll be arrested for all this bank money I got
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in the trunk.
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I just... at the bank in Columbus a few days earlier,
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you know.
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He had a very difficult time describing his own internal feelings.
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He could say what he was thinking, but he could
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not articulate or describe how he was feeling.
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I don't know.
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I guess it's kind of like, you know, you see
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this stuff going on on TV a lot, you know,
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and it seems to desensitize you.
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Maybe that was it.
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I did not do an official assessment of Joseph as
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to whether or not he was a psychopath. But it's
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my opinion that he does show traits of psychopathy. This
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underlying personality disorder known as psychopathy does seem to be
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present in most serial killers. It's difficult for people who
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do have traits of psychopathy to identify feelings because they
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don't feel the same way that regular people feel.
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Coming up.
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Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
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Well, I was.
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You know, the way people would sit down there and
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wait for a wild game, I guess.
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Before launching his career as a serial killer, Joseph Paul
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Franklin was a deeply troubled young man, searching for identity
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and belonging, first among evangelical Christians, then with right-wing extremists.
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During the early 70s, you kind of see a metamorphosis
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with Franklin. He begins to associate with the Nazi party.
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He begins to associate with the Ku Klux Klan. And
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then you see a little bit of the trial and
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errors of his criminal behavior. You became, for a brief time,
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a member of the American Nazi party and even the
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Ku Klux Klan.
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I was involved with the party. That was in 1973.
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You weren't a member very long. Just a year for
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that one, yeah. I didn't stick with any of them.
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A lot of them were just filled with FBI informants
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and people just always trying to get information from you.
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But how did these groups think about you? I mean,
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you weren't there for a very long time. Were they
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too conservative for you?
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They were mostly weren't doing anything, you know. Most of
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them were into talking.
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That's what the average Klansman and average Nazi, you know,
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they're all talk.
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And that's it.
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And what were you into?
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I was into action, you know, doing things. You know,
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I wanted to get, you know, actually do something. I
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wasn't sure exactly specifically what.
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I wanted to do, you know.
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So you became kind of a loner.
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Yeah, yeah. You got to be because you can't trust anybody.
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I thought when he gave that explanation, he was more
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or less legitimizing why he left those organizations. Even though
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he touched on it, I think part of the reason
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he left was because they weren't extreme enough for him.
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Then you begin to see him focus a little more
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and more on what he ends up being for the
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rest of his time before he's arrested, which is a sniper.
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St.
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Louis, 1977. Two months after Franklin's first murder in Wisconsin,
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a group of people chat in the parking lot of
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a synagogue. They are about to become the targets of
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Joseph Paul Franklin's first sniper shooting.
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There was a total of five shots.
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One shot struck a man in the chest, which killed him.
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Police that are arriving on the scene didn't know where
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it was coming from.
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The only thing we can tell you at this time
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that we're positive of is that we have the weapon,
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the rest post, and we have five spent cartridges, which
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is right up there at that telephone pole. It appears
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to be someone planned to come here and do just this.
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This was not an impulsive act whatsoever. This was an
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act that required planning, lots of patience. He chose this location...
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It had all the features that he was looking for
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or that he needed to set up his rifle, to
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give him an escape route, and to be able to
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sit there for two hours laying in wait for his
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perfect victim. The victim is almost the last thing he
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decides to do before he commits the homicide.
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For his first sniper killing, Franklin boldly leaves the murder
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weapon behind. having removed both his fingerprints and the serial
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number from the rifle.
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Though St.
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Louis police eventually traced the gun back to Texas, it
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would never lead them to Franklin.
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Being a sniper is a very unusual type of serial killer.
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You choose the place that you're going to shoot. You're
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kind of off.
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So it minimizes any contact whatsoever with the people you're
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going to shoot. And I'm wondering, what is it like
254
00:12:54.899 --> 00:12:59.220
when you're laying there getting ready to have a person.
255
00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:01.179
Walk in front of your sights?
256
00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.759
The way people will sit down there and wait for
257
00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:05.980
a wild game, I guess. I guess it's the same,
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00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:09.620
you know, hunters who find a tree stand or something.
259
00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:11.539
It's a similar situation, I guess. Just sit there and
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00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.720
wait until the target appears and shoot. I would just
261
00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:14.360
stake out an area.
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Find a good place to hide, you know, bushes or
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00:13:17.490 --> 00:13:18.409
just a vacant.
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00:13:18.110 --> 00:13:20.710
Yard as long as it was dark, you know. And
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I knew that I could see them, but they couldn't
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see me.
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You go over everything, every little step you'll take, so
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00:13:26.230 --> 00:13:29.440
that when you do get all your adrenaline going, you
269
00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:31.919
can just follow the plan that you already had in mind.
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00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:34.299
You don't have to worry about getting so scared that you.
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Can't even move, you know.
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Did you feel like you were actually hunting human beings?
273
00:13:39.500 --> 00:13:42.059
Well, I was. You wouldn't call that hunting them?
274
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:43.340
I wouldn't.
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00:13:43.970 --> 00:13:46.110
Hunting them and shooting them. Well you know a lot
276
00:13:46.129 --> 00:13:48.970
of people in the military do the same thing all
277
00:13:49.009 --> 00:13:51.110
the time. Kill people they don't even know.
278
00:13:51.470 --> 00:13:53.950
Some of the heroes of this country were the same way.
279
00:13:54.549 --> 00:13:57.549
But they killed the enemy soldiers so they're not looked down,
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despised by the society whereas.
281
00:13:59.950 --> 00:14:01.009
People like me are.
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00:14:01.529 --> 00:14:03.789
Some people are just born homicidal is what I'm saying.
283
00:14:03.820 --> 00:14:05.159
And believe it or not you'll find a lot of
284
00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:07.659
people in the Bible who fit into that category who
285
00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:08.620
are prophets of God.
286
00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:10.840
Look at all the Philistines Samson killed.
287
00:14:11.580 --> 00:14:14.559
He's implying, how can you judge me for doing the
288
00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:17.620
same thing that people in the Bible have done and
289
00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.379
heroes in Vietnam have done and soldiers in Iraq have
290
00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:20.919
had to do?
291
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.090
So he's saying, I had to do this.
292
00:14:23.649 --> 00:14:26.070
This was a good thing. I mean, it may sound bad,
293
00:14:26.090 --> 00:14:27.960
but it's a good thing and I had to do it.
294
00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:30.750
So don't judge me on the basis of my actions
295
00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:33.889
because I'm not that different from people in the Bible.
296
00:14:33.929 --> 00:14:37.080
I'm not that different from heroes in Vietnam and in
297
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:37.820
the Iraq war.
298
00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:42.799
Blacks all over the country would be afraid to walk
299
00:14:42.860 --> 00:14:46.230
down the street. I would be terrorizing the entire United States.
300
00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:47.169
Just one man.
301
00:14:47.690 --> 00:14:48.629
What a sense of power.
302
00:14:49.090 --> 00:14:49.330
Mm-hmm.
303
00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:58.090
After his St. Louis sniper killing, Joseph Paul Franklin hits
304
00:14:58.129 --> 00:15:01.909
the interstates looking for new opportunities to carry out his
305
00:15:02.029 --> 00:15:04.070
racist wrath. From 1977 to 1979, he commits similar shootings
306
00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:11.149
in Virginia, Tennessee, and Oklahoma.
307
00:15:11.990 --> 00:15:14.549
You begin to see this really what I would call
308
00:15:14.649 --> 00:15:19.460
very mission-oriented serial killer who's killing a lot. He's driving
309
00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:23.779
around a lot. He seems to have perfected the method
310
00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:25.039
of his killing.
311
00:15:25.779 --> 00:15:29.000
In addition to blacks and Jews, Franklin sets his sights
312
00:15:29.070 --> 00:15:32.850
on an infamous magazine publisher who dared to print pictures
313
00:15:32.909 --> 00:15:33.929
of an interracial couple.
314
00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:41.889
Larry Flint, the publisher of Hustler magazine. He and his
315
00:15:41.950 --> 00:15:44.509
lawyer were walking down the sidewalk when somebody on the
316
00:15:44.549 --> 00:15:48.149
street opened fire, shooting Flint in the stomach and his
317
00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:50.070
lawyer in the side and then escaped.
318
00:15:50.669 --> 00:15:52.230
Both are in critical condition.
319
00:15:53.190 --> 00:15:57.220
To Franklin's frustration, neither the police nor the media recognized
320
00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:00.500
that one person is behind this shooting, the one in St.
321
00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:02.539
Louis and those in other cities.
322
00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:06.960
These would have been very difficult crimes to link. There's
323
00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:10.870
such a limited amount of evidence at those crime scenes.
324
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.169
There's no interaction with the victims, so the detective has very,
325
00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:17.490
very little to go on.
326
00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:20.860
By 1980, Franklin finds a strategy he thinks will demand
327
00:16:20.889 --> 00:16:22.639
law enforcement's full attention.
328
00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:27.080
So what did you decide to do in 1980?
329
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.220
Well, just to keep doing a whole lot more of them.
330
00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:32.720
so they could not ignore it. All the law enforcement
331
00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:34.559
officers knew all about it, but they wouldn't tell the
332
00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:36.620
media that it was a national thing. I guess they
333
00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:38.980
figured until we catch the guy, we're not going to
334
00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:40.750
give him any kind of national publicity.
335
00:16:41.110 --> 00:16:42.210
That had to be frustrating.
336
00:16:42.230 --> 00:16:44.470
Yeah, it was kind of frustrating, but that just made
337
00:16:44.509 --> 00:16:46.909
me want to do even more. That's why I wanted
338
00:16:46.929 --> 00:16:50.169
to shoot Jesse Jackson the most. That's the one I
339
00:16:50.190 --> 00:16:54.769
stalked up in Chicago, went to Operation Push headquarters up there. Evidently,
340
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.720
I might have been a little too obvious because I
341
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.590
was driving down that road one day, And I looked
342
00:16:59.629 --> 00:17:02.929
and saw a car behind me. And I thought, it
343
00:17:02.970 --> 00:17:05.009
looks like that dude is following me in that car,
344
00:17:05.049 --> 00:17:09.039
an unmarked police car. I'm going to take the next right,
345
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:12.039
and if he takes the right too, I know he's
346
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.240
following me. So I took the next right, and sure enough,
347
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:16.980
he took a right too and kept on going.
348
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.039
I thought, if somebody's tailing me here, I better get
349
00:17:19.099 --> 00:17:20.180
out of town, you know?
350
00:17:20.950 --> 00:17:24.369
The paranoia really, in a way, is very justified because
351
00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:27.490
he knows that he has shot and killed people all
352
00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:31.650
over the United States. It's that personality trait of his
353
00:17:31.849 --> 00:17:35.789
that actually led to his identity and ultimately to his arrest.
354
00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:40.569
After Franklin's plan to shoot Jesse Jackson fails, he stumbles
355
00:17:40.650 --> 00:17:44.910
upon another high-profile target, civil rights leader Vernon Jordan.
356
00:17:45.589 --> 00:17:49.059
So I left Chicago at that time, headed toward Indiana,
357
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.509
and I stopped in Fort Wayne that night And it
358
00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:54.809
just happened here on the news that Vernon Jordan was
359
00:17:54.849 --> 00:17:56.609
speaking at the Marriott Motel.
360
00:17:57.509 --> 00:17:58.589
At such and such time, I.
361
00:17:58.529 --> 00:18:00.769
Thought, well, if he's speaking at the motel, he's probably
362
00:18:00.789 --> 00:18:01.769
staying at the motel.
363
00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:04.869
So I called the motel up from my motel room.
364
00:18:04.930 --> 00:18:08.799
I said, could you tell me what room number Vernon
365
00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:09.900
Jordan is in?
366
00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:12.660
She said, sir, that's against policy. I can't do that.
367
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:14.799
We're not supposed to do that. Somehow I was able
368
00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:16.700
to convince her to give me the room number. So
369
00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:17.539
that's all it took.
370
00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:19.980
I was able to set up an ambush outside by
371
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.400
the interstate, you know, That's how that went down.
372
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.759
Vernon Jordan is said to be in very serious but
373
00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.880
at least stable condition at a Fort Wayne, Indiana hospital
374
00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.869
this morning, while local and federal officials are trying to
375
00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:36.130
find out who shot him and why.
376
00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:41.509
He talks about going after high-profile targets like Mr. Jordan
377
00:18:41.990 --> 00:18:46.079
and Larry Flint and actually stalking them, getting up close
378
00:18:46.299 --> 00:18:48.819
to where they were staying and where they were at
379
00:18:48.859 --> 00:18:49.220
the time.
380
00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:51.309
Which really is very.
381
00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:54.250
Stupid, because when you go after people who are famous,
382
00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:57.130
you're going to unleash law enforcement from.
383
00:18:57.029 --> 00:18:57.869
All over the country.
384
00:18:58.930 --> 00:19:01.509
Was there something that triggered it that happened to you,
385
00:19:01.750 --> 00:19:04.670
or did you decide that I need to kill somebody?
386
00:19:04.690 --> 00:19:07.369
I was actually trying to get a race war started.
387
00:19:07.990 --> 00:19:10.970
That was my goal, commit enough racial incidents all over
388
00:19:11.009 --> 00:19:13.470
the country to get the blacks all stirred up, you know,
389
00:19:13.730 --> 00:19:16.369
and they would start killing whites, and then the whites
390
00:19:16.390 --> 00:19:19.349
would then get angry, and retaliate for that, and he
391
00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:21.789
would go back and forth until a full-scale race war
392
00:19:21.809 --> 00:19:22.410
was going on.
393
00:19:23.509 --> 00:19:27.230
Joseph wanted blacks and Jews to fear that anywhere they went,
394
00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:32.019
they could be gunned down. That is such a grandiose scheme,
395
00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:37.599
and it's unrealistic, and having unrealistic goals is consistent with
396
00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:39.279
people who.
397
00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:40.720
Manifest traits of psychopathy.
398
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:43.200
In fact, that's one of the traits of that disorder
399
00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:46.480
is that they have unrealistic goals. That never would have happened,
400
00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:50.420
and yet, He believes that he was capable... of being
401
00:19:50.460 --> 00:19:51.500
able to accomplish that.
402
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:53.920
I guess if I would have been able to do
403
00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:56.420
it long enough, they would have had to give me
404
00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.779
national publicity. Blacks all over the country, interracial couples would
405
00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:02.000
be afraid to walk down the street. I would be
406
00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:03.920
terrorizing the entire United States.
407
00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:05.089
Just one man.
408
00:20:05.829 --> 00:20:06.750
What a sense of power.
409
00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:07.309
Yeah.
410
00:20:07.809 --> 00:20:09.250
They didn't want to freak.
411
00:20:09.089 --> 00:20:10.869
Out the blacks all over the country. That's why they
412
00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:12.809
wouldn't give me all that new national publicity.
413
00:20:12.890 --> 00:20:15.250
Wow, that must have made you feel pretty important.
414
00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:17.329
No, I wasn't really important.
415
00:20:17.369 --> 00:20:19.450
You know, it was just the facts, the acts I
416
00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:21.049
was trying to do. My goal was to get the
417
00:20:21.069 --> 00:20:22.170
race war started, you know.
418
00:20:22.470 --> 00:20:23.579
But you weren't successful.
419
00:20:24.339 --> 00:20:26.210
No, I wasn't successful in that.
420
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.380
I got caught after the Salt Lake City shootings three years.
421
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:29.980
Later, you know.
422
00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:33.980
I think underpinning a lot of his criminal behavior was
423
00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:37.220
this need for attention, this need to get credit for
424
00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.089
these crimes. It's what we call need-driven behavior. And his
425
00:20:42.619 --> 00:20:47.950
need-driven behavior was law enforcement recognizing that one person, and
426
00:20:48.109 --> 00:20:52.509
one person alone, was capable of creating chaos and fear
427
00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:54.049
in the United States.
428
00:20:58.490 --> 00:20:58.950
Coming up.
429
00:20:59.259 --> 00:21:02.200
Remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot?
430
00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:02.700
Mm-hmm.
431
00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:04.480
You could see that they were young.
432
00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:06.960
Yeah, I was trying to ratchet up the violence.
433
00:21:11.630 --> 00:21:17.150
In 1977, serial sniper Joseph Paul Franklin begins wandering the
434
00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:20.930
country shooting people he calls enemies of the white race.
435
00:21:22.029 --> 00:21:25.829
His victims are chosen at random, except for two, civil
436
00:21:25.869 --> 00:21:29.750
rights leader Vernon Jordan and Hustler magazine publisher Larry Flint,
437
00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:30.950
who are targeted for.
438
00:21:30.849 --> 00:21:32.069
Their high-profile work.
439
00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:36.670
By 1980, Franklin, feeling that his crimes are not getting
440
00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:39.799
the attention they deserve, escalates his violence.
441
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:46.029
A serial sniper is a tough, tough offender to understand.
442
00:21:46.269 --> 00:21:48.250
He decides who will be in his sights.
443
00:21:48.809 --> 00:21:54.670
He realizes that that person's life rests in his hands.
444
00:21:55.329 --> 00:21:58.890
So the ultimate thrill and sense of power and control
445
00:21:59.089 --> 00:22:02.579
over another human being has to be considered as part
446
00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.779
of the motivation for being a serial sniper.
447
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:09.400
It appears that Franklin also decides to expand his target
448
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:16.460
list to include children. On June 8th, 1980, the sniper
449
00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.960
unleashes his pain on Cincinnati, Ohio.
450
00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:27.680
You have two teenage boys who were shot and killed
451
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:32.819
in Cincinnati. No one sees anything, no one identifies anybody
452
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:33.799
that was responsible.
453
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.269
The victims, Dante Evans Brown and Darrell Lane, cousins and
454
00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:41.450
best friends. were 13 and 14 years old.
455
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:44.480
Give our brother Dante peaceful rest in this grave.
456
00:22:45.180 --> 00:22:48.380
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit come on
457
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:54.160
you and remain with you forever. Amen. Up until that point,
458
00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:58.410
we had not seen really young victims, 13 and 14
459
00:22:58.410 --> 00:23:04.390
years of age, who now were targeted by this serial sniper.
460
00:23:04.470 --> 00:23:10.910
And it really suggests that Joseph was changing his MO,
461
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.980
he was increasing the number of crimes, and he was
462
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:18.920
even changing his victimology to include these two very sympathetic victims.
463
00:23:19.900 --> 00:23:22.900
If we could go back to the choice of, you
464
00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:25.299
remember the two teenage boys in Cincinnati?
465
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:26.240
The what?
466
00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:33.940
The two teenage boys in Cincinnati that you shot. They
467
00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:36.880
were 13 and 14, and this was during that period
468
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:40.000
of time that you described that you were going to
469
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:40.920
do things differently.
470
00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:43.140
Yeah, I was trying to ratchet up the violence.
471
00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:47.329
Is that why you picked two young teenage boys? Because
472
00:23:47.349 --> 00:23:48.579
you had a scope on your.
473
00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:50.609
Weapon at that time, and you would have been able
474
00:23:50.910 --> 00:23:52.049
to see that they were young.
475
00:23:52.069 --> 00:23:54.069
There was only one time during the interview.
476
00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:03.980
When his body language became defensive, and that was when
477
00:24:04.029 --> 00:24:08.309
we started to talk about the homicide in Cincinnati involving
478
00:24:08.890 --> 00:24:12.410
two young African-American.
479
00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:14.230
Boys ages 13 and 14.
480
00:24:14.230 --> 00:24:16.130
I couldn't really tell exactly how old they were.
481
00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:19.400
I figured they were young, but maybe just 18 or
482
00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.240
19 years old, you know, sitting in there in the dark,
483
00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:25.559
you know, and seeing just their silhouettes, you know, their shadows,
484
00:24:25.579 --> 00:24:27.690
you know, it's kind of hard to tell how old
485
00:24:27.710 --> 00:24:28.349
somebody was.
486
00:24:28.390 --> 00:24:30.109
I had no idea they were that young.
487
00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:33.619
I knew from reviewing the case and from talking to
488
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:36.660
other people that not only could he have seen through
489
00:24:36.700 --> 00:24:39.539
the scope, but he wasn't all that far away from
490
00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:43.460
those two young victims. When you know only shoot young children,
491
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.140
the repercussions for you as the offender can be far greater,
492
00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:51.240
especially when you are incarcerated in prison. And people think
493
00:24:51.289 --> 00:24:54.670
of you differently when you shoot and kill children.
494
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:57.400
It didn't really matter to me.
495
00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:00.900
I had no conscience as far as the blacks go.
496
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.079
When you're a member of the Klan and you spend
497
00:25:03.099 --> 00:25:06.880
years around white supremacists, you begin thinking of blacks as non-human.
498
00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:10.309
Connie Lynch, who was a well-known Klan's leader, said, when
499
00:25:10.329 --> 00:25:13.289
I go out to kill rattlesnakes, I don't make any
500
00:25:13.349 --> 00:25:17.069
difference between little rattlesnakes and big rattlesnakes because I know
501
00:25:17.089 --> 00:25:18.789
the little ones will grow up and bite me when
502
00:25:18.809 --> 00:25:22.470
they get big. So I looked at blacks the same way.
503
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.980
So it appeared to me that he was speaking out
504
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.400
of both sides of his mouth. He was talking about
505
00:25:28.539 --> 00:25:31.940
not knowing that they were younger victims. And yet, if
506
00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:37.089
he shot two young boys, he knew that he would
507
00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:40.569
get much more attention from the media and much more
508
00:25:40.589 --> 00:25:42.230
attention from law enforcement.
509
00:25:46.390 --> 00:25:46.880
Coming up.
510
00:25:47.049 --> 00:25:49.990
I was a little kid that was beat up and starved.
511
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:53.099
You get so traumatized, you're just trying to pay back
512
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.180
other people all the pain that you suffered.
513
00:26:00.849 --> 00:26:05.470
In the summer of 1980, an unusual type of serial killer,
514
00:26:05.609 --> 00:26:08.470
a racist sniper, roams the U.S.
515
00:26:08.609 --> 00:26:09.450
Looking for targets.
516
00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:15.799
In states from Virginia to Oklahoma, he's used high-powered rifles, shotguns,
517
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:16.019
and a.
518
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:16.759
357 Magnum to kill.
519
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.039
In Salt Lake City, detectives are facing a double homicide
520
00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:27.539
that has all the trademarks of this serial killer.
521
00:26:27.940 --> 00:26:32.049
We had reports of several shots fired. When we arrived here,
522
00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:36.569
we had two victims down. We do have confirmed on
523
00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:38.690
two of the victims that they have expired.
524
00:26:42.529 --> 00:26:46.430
Two young men, 18 and 19, both black and well
525
00:26:46.490 --> 00:26:50.589
regarded in the community, are dead. The two white girls
526
00:26:50.619 --> 00:26:52.150
they were jogging with escape.
527
00:26:53.230 --> 00:26:54.410
I responded that night.
528
00:26:54.430 --> 00:26:57.170
It looked like the sniper had laid in wait inside
529
00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:00.309
this field and then shot these four people as they
530
00:27:00.349 --> 00:27:03.170
were coming across the lighted intersection.
531
00:27:04.490 --> 00:27:05.410
Both the boys were.
532
00:27:05.309 --> 00:27:08.819
Shot even after they had quit moving. They weren't wounds
533
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.920
to the legs or the extremities. These were all, in
534
00:27:12.619 --> 00:27:14.579
shooter's talk, these were all like kill shots.
535
00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:17.910
I'd like to talk to you about the Salt Lake
536
00:27:17.950 --> 00:27:19.009
City shooting.
537
00:27:19.250 --> 00:27:22.210
That was August 1980.
538
00:27:22.210 --> 00:27:23.329
Why did you travel to Salt Lake?
539
00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:26.289
Well, I'd been there before already, back in 1975. Okay.
540
00:27:26.529 --> 00:27:30.509
And had noticed a lot of miscegenation.
541
00:27:31.069 --> 00:27:31.549
What is that?
542
00:27:32.150 --> 00:27:37.069
Mixing of the races, especially white with non-whites. It would
543
00:27:37.089 --> 00:27:40.930
be a good place to target. I saw two interracial
544
00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:43.509
couples jogging toward the park, two black dudes and two
545
00:27:43.549 --> 00:27:44.609
white chicks, you know?
546
00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:45.269
So.
547
00:27:46.420 --> 00:27:49.119
I thought, well, I'll just keep waiting here until they
548
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:52.420
come back. And so there was a mound of dirt there,
549
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.660
so I was, you know, concealed with tall grass and everything,
550
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.000
you know.
551
00:27:59.509 --> 00:28:02.210
Salt Lake City had been used to dealing with a
552
00:28:02.269 --> 00:28:05.210
number of very violent crimes, so there was tremendous experience
553
00:28:05.250 --> 00:28:08.710
in the department, but this was a very different kind
554
00:28:08.829 --> 00:28:09.490
of offender.
555
00:28:10.869 --> 00:28:14.730
Although Franklin has killed his intended targets, the crime has stopped.
556
00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:17.839
We did find some tire tread marks in the field
557
00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:21.970
where the shell casings were found. They were a prototype tire,
558
00:28:22.289 --> 00:28:25.089
and they were only sold in a very limited amount
559
00:28:25.109 --> 00:28:27.950
of states, but every one of those states were east
560
00:28:27.990 --> 00:28:31.079
of the Mississippi River. They had to be from somewhere
561
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:31.640
back east.
562
00:28:35.059 --> 00:28:38.180
It's not long before witnesses come forward and describe seeing
563
00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:42.140
a dark-colored Camaro parked in the field near the sniper's position.
564
00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.170
We found a man who was walking by about a
565
00:28:45.210 --> 00:28:47.970
week later, and he actually saw the Camaro, and he
566
00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:50.109
gave us a very good description of the car.
567
00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:54.289
Soon, a local prostitute confirms that she's done business with
568
00:28:54.329 --> 00:28:56.009
a man who drove a similar car.
569
00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:59.940
He didn't want to trick in the car, so he says,
570
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.920
we'll go to my motel room. She thought he was
571
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:05.160
from the south because he had a southern accent, but
572
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:08.000
she couldn't remember where in the south. What made it
573
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.640
interesting to me is she mentioned that she saw some
574
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:13.990
handguns and rifles in his room. Then he told her
575
00:29:14.009 --> 00:29:16.579
that he was a hitman for the Ku Klux Klan.
576
00:29:17.660 --> 00:29:19.920
The witness is able to help police put together a
577
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:21.279
composite of the suspect.
578
00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:25.720
When we knew that there had been other killings back east,
579
00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:29.299
we now knew that this guy was from that area.
580
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.869
I think from the composites alone, we're pretty much convinced
581
00:29:33.329 --> 00:29:34.630
that we were on the right road.
582
00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:39.329
The registration card from the motel also lists the Camaro's
583
00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:43.359
license plate number. and the name of its driver. While
584
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:46.900
the information is phony, Salt Lake City police soon discover
585
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:50.559
a trail of similar aliases in motels across the region.
586
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.900
So from the 9th of August to August 20th, we
587
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:59.109
could place him in, I think, seven or eight different motels.
588
00:30:00.190 --> 00:30:03.750
We never found him after August 20th, which was the
589
00:30:03.809 --> 00:30:06.640
night of our shooting. It's like he just disappeared off
590
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:07.460
the face of the earth.
591
00:30:08.660 --> 00:30:11.539
The Salt Lake City police catch a break when one
592
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.640
astute motel owner writes down the Camaro's real license plate number.
593
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:19.079
A month later, this information pays off.
594
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.940
I think 11 o'clock one night, I got a call saying,
595
00:30:28.509 --> 00:30:31.430
head to the airport, they found this guy and were
596
00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:35.759
flying you to, I think the little town was called Erlanger, Kentucky,
597
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.559
and they'd arrested him at a motel on our warrant.
598
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:44.839
In an odd turn of events, police in Boone County, Kentucky,
599
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.210
while arresting a burglar at a local motel, encounter an
600
00:30:49.369 --> 00:30:51.829
angry and paranoid man in the room next door.
601
00:30:52.829 --> 00:30:55.670
They check his identification, they check his vehicle, and they
602
00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:59.210
realize that his vehicle parked in the parking lot is
603
00:30:59.269 --> 00:31:01.490
a vehicle that is wanted by the Salt Lake City
604
00:31:01.529 --> 00:31:03.309
Police Department in a double homicide.
605
00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:07.759
Finding two high-powered rifles and handguns in the man's room,
606
00:31:08.579 --> 00:31:10.180
police take him in for questioning.
607
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:15.359
So law enforcement in Kentucky didn't realize when they brought
608
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:18.920
him into the interview room really who they had. They
609
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.920
didn't know how many homicides that he had committed and
610
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.839
how committed he was to not being apprehended.
611
00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:27.460
And it wasn't until they got him into the station
612
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.410
and then they started talking about Salt Lake City and shootings,
613
00:31:30.529 --> 00:31:32.690
I think then that's where he got worried and he
614
00:31:32.910 --> 00:31:35.690
manufactured his escape and he took off.
615
00:31:36.990 --> 00:31:40.099
During a break in the interview, Franklin escapes out an
616
00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:45.700
open window and disappears. One of America's deadliest serial killers
617
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:50.210
is back on the street. But now, police have his
618
00:31:50.309 --> 00:31:56.960
real name. On September 25th, 1980, Joseph Paul Franklin, age 30,
619
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:03.420
is now the object of a nationwide manhunt. One month later,
620
00:32:03.509 --> 00:32:08.329
the FBI, aware that Franklin regularly sells his blood, catches
621
00:32:08.369 --> 00:32:12.390
him at a blood bank near Tampa, Florida. Franklin proclaims
622
00:32:12.430 --> 00:32:15.279
his innocence while proudly admitting his racist beliefs.
623
00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:17.470
Do you have white racist views?
624
00:32:17.630 --> 00:32:18.289
Oh, definitely, yeah.
625
00:32:18.329 --> 00:32:19.630
Well, how do you feel about blacks?
626
00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:21.349
I'm against racism and communism.
627
00:32:22.089 --> 00:32:26.710
His denials don't last. In the coming years, Franklin confesses
628
00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:30.910
to numerous murders. For the sniper killing at the St.
629
00:32:30.950 --> 00:32:33.869
Louis synagogue, Franklin is sentenced to death.
630
00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:35.130
Mr.
631
00:32:35.190 --> 00:32:39.250
Franklin has said that his motivation was to eliminate what
632
00:32:39.289 --> 00:32:45.150
he referred to as ugly people from the community. That
633
00:32:45.430 --> 00:32:50.119
is an explanation that he thinks would give him more credibility.
634
00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:52.619
But as far as what caused him to become a
635
00:32:52.700 --> 00:32:57.619
serial killer, I think that was an excuse. So how
636
00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:01.180
did you, Joseph, evolve to the point where you could
637
00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:04.180
do something that seems so cold-blooded?
638
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:09.160
You get so traumatized that you're just trying to pay
639
00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:11.740
back other people all the pain that you suffered. That's
640
00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:14.119
what happened to me. From the time I was a
641
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.299
little kid and was yelled at all day long and
642
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:20.559
beat up and starved, it had an effect on me
643
00:33:20.619 --> 00:33:22.940
when I got older, you know. Just about everybody in
644
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:25.529
the family had an alcohol problem, you know. They all
645
00:33:25.589 --> 00:33:29.970
drank like crazy, including my dad was an alcoholic. After
646
00:33:30.029 --> 00:33:32.549
spending all his paycheck, my mother would start fussing at him.
647
00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:34.950
They would be fighting, cussing, and screaming at each other,
648
00:33:35.049 --> 00:33:37.990
and he would be beating her, and, you know, that's
649
00:33:38.019 --> 00:33:40.019
the way it went. I remember the landlord would come
650
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:41.619
and bang on the side of the trailer, and it
651
00:33:41.660 --> 00:33:43.660
would just terrorize us, you know. He would hit the
652
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:45.759
trailer real bad and start yelling at my mother to
653
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:48.440
pay the rent, you know. And she had no money
654
00:33:48.460 --> 00:33:51.319
because my father would take all the money and spend
655
00:33:51.339 --> 00:33:52.119
it for alcohol.
656
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:53.599
Eventually, they split up.
657
00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:57.259
In 1965, they were divorced, and it was, you know,
658
00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.970
that left us on welfare, you know. And so she
659
00:34:00.049 --> 00:34:02.589
began abusing us even worse after he left, you know.
660
00:34:02.609 --> 00:34:06.650
I was the only child in the family who was
661
00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:10.050
always bringing animals home. One afternoon, there was a little
662
00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:13.079
terrier dog, you know, from the neighborhood. We were all
663
00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:15.360
out in the yard, all of us kids, petting this
664
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:17.920
little terrier. It was a cute little dog, too, you know,
665
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.420
with a little tail that stuck straight up, you know.
666
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:22.599
And just as friendly as can be, you know.
667
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:26.050
Mama had been sitting in her lawn chair watching us
668
00:34:26.170 --> 00:34:30.030
and went into the house, set a pot of water
669
00:34:30.170 --> 00:34:33.150
on the stove and began boiling it. She got the
670
00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:35.429
water up to a full boil, you know, and poured
671
00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:37.880
it right on the little dog's back, you know, and
672
00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:41.699
he went, you know, screaming and running away real fast,
673
00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:42.039
you know.
674
00:34:42.579 --> 00:34:44.039
She had a lot of cruel behavior.
675
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:45.260
I mean, she was a sadist.
676
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:46.360
How old were you?
677
00:34:47.050 --> 00:34:49.250
About 10 or 11.
678
00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:53.769
Joseph talked about a childhood that was chilling. The question is,
679
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.909
despite the harshness and the severity of the abuse, does
680
00:34:58.989 --> 00:35:01.650
that act as a cause and effect for him later
681
00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:04.269
to go on and become a serial killer? We have
682
00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:06.809
no research at this point to say that there is
683
00:35:06.989 --> 00:35:09.929
a cause and effect just with childhood abuse because we
684
00:35:09.989 --> 00:35:13.699
know that there are unfortunately many people who are raised
685
00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:17.219
in very abusive situations and they don't go on to
686
00:35:17.260 --> 00:35:21.639
become serial killers. So I think we have to incorporate
687
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.230
that environment that he described But I think it would
688
00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:28.530
be wrong to say that he was a serial killer
689
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.219
strictly and solely because.
690
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:38.659
He was raised in an abusive environment. Do you think
691
00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:39.559
you were born to kill?
692
00:35:39.579 --> 00:35:41.929
Yeah, I guess you could say that. I was under
693
00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:43.090
the influence of the devil.
694
00:35:43.710 --> 00:35:44.949
What do you think is going to happen to you
695
00:35:44.969 --> 00:35:45.309
when you die?
696
00:35:49.929 --> 00:35:52.889
Joseph Paul Franklin has been on Missouri's death row for
697
00:35:52.949 --> 00:35:56.769
more than a decade. Extreme hatred and what appears to
698
00:35:56.809 --> 00:36:01.130
be an utter lack of conscience drove him to kill
699
00:36:01.190 --> 00:36:04.389
some 20 people and injure many others.
700
00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:08.530
How do I feel about someone like Joseph? Do I
701
00:36:08.590 --> 00:36:09.199
pity him?
702
00:36:09.739 --> 00:36:11.960
What are my feelings towards him?
703
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:15.679
I feel that it's important that we understand how he
704
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.980
developed to be able to go back and say, was
705
00:36:20.019 --> 00:36:24.599
it possible early on to prevent this? Was it possible
706
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:29.079
to do something that would have changed the course of history?
707
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:33.980
Your first thoughts of killing somebody, how old do you
708
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:34.519
think you were?
709
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:37.659
About 17 years old, I think.
710
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.380
When I would watch all these Westerns on TV, I
711
00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:42.519
guess I would see people wanting them to get shot.
712
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.679
Here he was, watching TV, watching Westerns, lots of shootouts.
713
00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:52.869
He particularly enjoyed when the bad guy was successful. In
714
00:36:52.909 --> 00:36:56.969
the late 50s and during the 60s, the era of Vietnam,
715
00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:01.909
John Kennedy was assassinated by a sniper. Charles Whitman was
716
00:37:01.929 --> 00:37:05.980
a particularly successful sniper at the University of Texas in 1966.
717
00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:10.320
It was a period of time of a lot of violence,
718
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.000
a lot of violence that didn't make any sense. So
719
00:37:13.539 --> 00:37:15.760
you have to wonder about the impact of some of
720
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.579
the events of that period and what role they played
721
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:22.489
in him and his decision to ultimately become a serial sniper.
722
00:37:23.469 --> 00:37:26.170
Was there a point in time where something could have
723
00:37:26.210 --> 00:37:28.550
been done to put you on a different course?
724
00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:31.409
Was there some kind of intervention that could have happened?
725
00:37:31.909 --> 00:37:33.989
If I had some people to teach me and encourage
726
00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:36.099
me to go to school and get an education and all,
727
00:37:36.139 --> 00:37:38.659
when I was little, my life would have turned out
728
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:39.940
a whole lot differently, you know?
729
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.940
Do you think you still would have become a serial sniper?
730
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.719
I don't think I would have, no. I wouldn't have
731
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.019
built up all that hatred over the years, you know?
732
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:49.780
It's a The thing that everybody does when they get hurt,
733
00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:51.139
they want to pass that pain on.
734
00:37:51.340 --> 00:37:53.510
I just kept getting angry, you know.
735
00:37:54.409 --> 00:37:55.889
Do you think you were born to kill?
736
00:37:55.909 --> 00:37:57.690
Yeah, I guess you could say that.
737
00:37:58.110 --> 00:38:00.409
Some people are just born with a streak that they
738
00:38:00.449 --> 00:38:03.110
can do something like that. There's other people, I guess
739
00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:05.219
if the same thing had happened, they wouldn't have done anything.
740
00:38:05.380 --> 00:38:05.639
You know.
741
00:38:06.619 --> 00:38:06.960
Joseph.
742
00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:11.599
referred to himself in previous interviews as a natural born killer.
743
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.699
And I asked him about that, and he agreed that
744
00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:19.699
that was a possibility for him. Again, almost a recognition
745
00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:23.980
that in spite of this environment that he described as abusive,
746
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.360
he still was a.
747
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:28.039
Natural born killer.
748
00:38:28.420 --> 00:38:32.659
And the research up to this point seems to suggest
749
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:35.380
that there seems to be some part of it that
750
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:40.750
is hardwired In other words, genetic link to this personality disorder.
751
00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:42.929
Do you think there was a part of you that
752
00:38:43.349 --> 00:38:44.809
at that time enjoyed the killing?
753
00:38:48.150 --> 00:38:49.849
I wouldn't say enjoyed it. It was just something I
754
00:38:49.869 --> 00:38:52.030
felt I had to do. There was nobody else doing it,
755
00:38:52.050 --> 00:38:52.760
so I figured.
756
00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:53.179
I had to do it.
757
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:55.400
How did you feel once you finished the shooting?
758
00:38:55.420 --> 00:38:59.000
I was just glad to get away.
759
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:02.500
Was it sexually arousing when you were pulling the trigger?
760
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:03.280
Not at all, no.
761
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:07.019
Have you had violent sexual fantasies?
762
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:09.280
What do you mean by violent sexual fantasies?
763
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.460
Violence and sex are involved in your fantasies.
764
00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:16.199
That would be a VSF, huh? No, I never had
765
00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:18.360
any of those. I wasn't into that. The only thing
766
00:39:18.380 --> 00:39:20.760
I got sexually aroused with was women.
767
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:25.639
I was either out chasing skirts, trying to get laid,
768
00:39:26.179 --> 00:39:28.469
or I was out trying to kill an interracial couple
769
00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:29.389
or a black man.
770
00:39:30.500 --> 00:39:32.340
That was what I was spending most of my time doing.
771
00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.320
For some people, though, killing is very sexual.
772
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:37.400
Yeah, I know. There's some sick puppies out there. I
773
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:38.719
don't fall in that category, though.
774
00:39:39.809 --> 00:39:42.829
The most frequently seen serial killer in my unit are
775
00:39:42.869 --> 00:39:48.150
those serial killers who who are motivated for sexual purposes.
776
00:39:48.489 --> 00:39:49.309
In other words, they're.
777
00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:52.269
Sexually gratified in some way as a result of murdering
778
00:39:52.309 --> 00:39:56.719
the victim. Joseph does fit the definition of a serial killer. Now,
779
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:01.619
his motivation was different, and he talked about his motivation
780
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:06.360
being non-sexual, which is obviously a very touchy area to
781
00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:09.619
get into with an individual. Is he telling the truth?
782
00:40:10.590 --> 00:40:13.250
There's no way to know that. We're depending on him
783
00:40:13.369 --> 00:40:15.469
to tell us that. If it is true, it may
784
00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:19.829
be too embarrassing for him to admit. Or they may
785
00:40:19.909 --> 00:40:22.369
not have been sexually motivated.
786
00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:25.789
And as we close, let me ask you this.
787
00:40:26.610 --> 00:40:31.429
How do you feel about the people that you killed?
788
00:40:32.449 --> 00:40:34.630
I feel sorry for them. I regret having done that,
789
00:40:34.650 --> 00:40:34.969
you know.
790
00:40:35.769 --> 00:40:39.210
What does regret feel like to Joseph Paul Franklin?
791
00:40:39.250 --> 00:40:40.909
Well, I just, in other words, I just wished I
792
00:40:40.949 --> 00:40:43.130
had not done it, you know. I feel sorry for
793
00:40:43.170 --> 00:40:46.500
the people, you know. It was really wrong for me
794
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:47.139
to do that.
795
00:40:48.219 --> 00:40:53.469
I think like most serial killers, Joseph knows right from wrong.
796
00:40:53.909 --> 00:40:57.989
He talked about regret, but whether or not that was
797
00:40:58.369 --> 00:41:02.010
a sincere, remorseful regret, I can only tell you what
798
00:41:02.050 --> 00:41:04.849
my opinion was based on my experience with these types
799
00:41:04.909 --> 00:41:07.360
of offenders. And I did not walk away with the
800
00:41:07.420 --> 00:41:11.300
sense that he had those feelings of remorse and guilt.
801
00:41:12.750 --> 00:41:14.829
I was under the influence of the devil, to be
802
00:41:14.869 --> 00:41:17.940
quite honest. I know that sounds, you know, I'm not
803
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:19.800
trying to say the devil made me do it, but
804
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:22.840
the devil does put thoughts in people's minds.
805
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:23.780
That is a fact.
806
00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:27.800
At the time when Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy
807
00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:31.309
were both assassinated, the same year, and the party carried
808
00:41:31.329 --> 00:41:35.590
an article that was titled Two Enemies of the White
809
00:41:35.670 --> 00:41:38.090
Race Die. That's the kind of stuff I was feeding
810
00:41:38.130 --> 00:41:38.889
my mind for.
811
00:41:38.809 --> 00:41:39.550
Years and years.
812
00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:43.190
That's why I began thinking of Blacks is nothing but
813
00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:47.210
subhumans who go around committing nothing but rapes and raping
814
00:41:47.250 --> 00:41:50.070
white women and killing. I know that's just a criminal
815
00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:52.269
element now. There's a lot of hardworking blacks who don't
816
00:41:52.309 --> 00:41:52.969
do that stuff.
817
00:41:52.989 --> 00:41:53.309
You know.
818
00:41:54.150 --> 00:41:55.590
You mentioned heaven and hell.
819
00:41:56.050 --> 00:41:59.880
Yeah, the Bible mentions those and so does the Koran.
820
00:42:00.460 --> 00:42:01.659
What do you think is going to happen to you
821
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:02.300
when you die?
822
00:42:03.260 --> 00:42:07.320
Well, I'm trusting in Jehovah's mercy, you know, trusting in
823
00:42:07.340 --> 00:42:08.079
God's mercy.
824
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:12.079
I think Joseph lives in the here and now. I
825
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.199
think he lives for the present moment. I think he's
826
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:18.500
obviously cognizant or aware that he has the death penalty
827
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:20.739
hanging over his head. But there also may be a
828
00:42:20.780 --> 00:42:24.280
part of him that thinks that something may happen ultimately
829
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:28.469
and he won't be executed. Many serial killers who are
830
00:42:29.090 --> 00:42:32.349
psychopaths are very optimistic in terms of their future.
831
00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:33.809
Thank you very much.
832
00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:38.969
Joseph was hardly a disappointment. Joseph's smart. He's articulate.
833
00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:42.400
And listening to him talk about what he wanted to do,
834
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:46.619
what his whole purpose was, made him even more frightening
835
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.949
of an individual than we realized 30-some years ago. I
836
00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:57.949
think that he was absolutely a very, very dangerous serial killer,
837
00:42:57.969 --> 00:43:00.389
set apart from many of the other ones that we
838
00:43:00.469 --> 00:43:01.230
saw then.
839
00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:01.969
And that we see today.
840
00:43:09.429 --> 00:43:12.050
One of the reasons for this kind of interview is
841
00:43:12.369 --> 00:43:15.550
not just to develop a better understanding of these kinds
842
00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:20.099
of offenders, but also to help investigators the next time
843
00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:20.719
that this.
844
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:21.739
Type of crime occurs.
845
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:26.360
Joseph Paul Franklin will not be our last serial sniper.
846
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:28.860
And we know that because we had the Beltway snipers
847
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:33.179
right after 9-11. A lot of the information that Joseph
848
00:43:33.219 --> 00:43:36.360
talked about is information that we can take in to
849
00:43:36.539 --> 00:43:41.449
not only prepare the investigation but to also help prepare
850
00:43:41.590 --> 00:43:44.989
for the interview with the next serial sniper.