WEBVTT
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Hi, guys, I'm it to
you. My Name is Joseph David Jones.
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Hey, this is Kevin Sussman.
Hey, this meny suit and John
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Re stay this on. You're listening
to script to scream, the script to
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screen, scrop screen, scripts,
screen, screen, hope, Bo and
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welcome to the brand new episode of
script to screen. Alan here and,
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as I had said in our last
episode, I'm going to be doing scripto
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screen episodes in five episode Arcs.
I mean it's understandable someone who likes writing
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stories and serialized content. Arcs are
the way to do it. So it's
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a five episode arcs and I am
focusing these next five on a conversation that
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I've been dying to have on the
show. I've been actually not just dying
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to have on the show, but
dying to have period, and that conversation
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revolves around diversity, representation, inclusion
when it comes to stories, when it
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comes to storytelling. And on today's
show I have someone that I was able
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to reach out to on twitter.
I love celebrating when social media actually works
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in the positive sense and not in
the toxic sense. So I reached out
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to Dr Luke Shelton on twitter,
especially after seeing his feed and and recent
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conversation surrounding Amazon's the rings of power, or is it the Lord of the
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Rings the Rings of power? Dr
Luke Shelton is the founder of the tolkien
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experience. He's also the editor of
Malorn, which is the newsletter for the
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Tolkien Society, news letter. It's
it's the Peer Review Journal, the Review
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Journal for the Tolkien Society, which
is a massive I mean that's a massive
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community right there. And so seeing
us to how I'm a huge Lord of
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the Rings Fan, specifically when it
comes to the film side of it.
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I have tried reading tolken more than
once. Eventually I'm gonna do it.
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I know I'm gonna do it.
That's about I've given myself. I know
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I'm gonna do it because I respect
the professor so much for everything that he's
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done to the fantasy genre, and
Luke being who he is, I figured
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it would be a perfect way to
start these next five episodes and talk about
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diversity, inclusion representation, especially because
it seems that the Lord of the Rings
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Fandom is has fallen victim to to
this conversation and the toxicity that surrounds it.
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And this is any here and here
in lies the reasoning us to why
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it to have this conversation, because
I believe that we are getting to a
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point in society where we're losing nuance
and we're losing the ability to have a
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conversation with different views without anger and
rage and and toxicity to sort of infect
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it. And I'm super happy to
have you on the show, Luke.
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So thank you for joining me today. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so
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much for having me. It's it's
been an interesting couple weeks with all of
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the announcements of Amazon show and and
a lot of the backlash and responses that
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we've seen. I do think that
there are certainly some some valid critiques and
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observations to be made, and I
do think that there are some observations that
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are quite hurtful and uncalled for.
So I'm glad we can kind of dig
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in a little bit more. Absolutely, absolutely. So I usually have the
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first little the first bit here just
so that my audience gets to know who
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you are a little bit more.
I usually leave the mic up to my
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guests to sort of take us on
a mini journey there and back again,
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many journey of how you got to
where you are today. You do have
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a PhD in literature, which I'm
that's awesome, and you've also founded the
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token experience. So could you just
take us on that mini journey to see
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how you got to where you are
today? Sure. Well, my obsession
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with tolkien started very, very young, so young I don't remember the first
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time I encountered the books. My
first memory is that when I was in
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elementary school or primary school. I
was in fourth grade, I think,
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so that's probably around eight or nine
years old, we would have a storyteller
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come and tell recite chapters of the
Hobbit in installments and from memory, a
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different chapter each week, and I
must have known the story before then because
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I remember sitting there and waiting for
him to mess up. I was very
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much that little kid who who wanted
things to be perfect. So you know,
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I loved Lord of the Rings and
Tolkien's larger work a lot. Starting
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then read the books before the movies
came out, shortly before the movies came
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out, but I was very much
an introverted child, so I didn't really
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know the movies were coming out until
they were actually here and watch the movies.
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At that point I was I was
still a teenager and still very much
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in my kind of purest phase.
So I enjoyed the movies, but there
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were certain things that I did not
like about the movies very definitely, like
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Peter Jackson making it the the snow
on Kara Dras B sorrow months fault.
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To me it was like no,
you took away Kara dress has volition there,
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so you've killed the earth basically.
So that was a big deal for
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me. I do know that in
the commentary Peter Jackson gets away with saying
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like know what was happening with Saramond, was kind of egging on Kara dras.
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But no, that's not what it
looked like. It's not. But
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still, you know, I enjoyed
the movies and I you know, I
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had my nick picks, but I
still enjoy them and I come back to
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them pretty frequently, probably every other
year. I tend to read the books
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more, and I should clarify that
when I say read the books, I
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mean listen to the audio books.
I listened to the audio books once a
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year. I read the books frequently, but often in snippets, for for
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doing the editing that I do.
I often have to check citations and things
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like that. So I'm constantly in
the books, but I don't sit down
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and read them through all the way
as often. Part of that as I
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have a HD, so it's hard
for me to sit there and focus for
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that long. So then, after
that experience growing up, was a huge
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fan through high school, got into
college and did English literature as one of
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my majors and in college and knew
that I wanted to go further into literature.
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But it was one of those times
when people said, you know,
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if you get a PhD in Tolkien, you're not going to get a job
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doing that because people aren't going to
take that serious Lee. And so I
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actually did my ema work in early
British literature. My thesis was on Beowulf,
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obviously very tolkien inspired still. And
then I got done with my ema
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and looked around at the job market
in academia and for those of you who
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don't know, that's a very,
very tough job market right now, that
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has been for the last decade or
so. So then, realizing I wasn't
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necessarily going to get a job doing
the straightforward path either when it came to
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doing my PhD, I decided I'm
just going to do my phd and the
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thing that I love, and so
that's how I ended up doing it on
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Tolkien with with Dmitri Fimi instead of
something more traditional, and I think that
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was the right choice for me because
I've I've really enjoyed it every day since.
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So that's kind of how I got
the PhD. I got really lucky
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in that and with that it's kind
of open some doors and let me do
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some things. So my PhD really
focuses on reception, the way that people
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respond to Tolkien's work. It's not
digging into like his motivate, tolken the
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motivations or anything like that. And
so out of that the youth correct yeah,
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the PhD focused on the way that
young reader's readers under at the age
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of eighteen responded to the Lord of
the Rings. But that's always been my
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passion and so from that I made
a wider project called the tolkien experience project
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that was open to anyone, and
that's still an ongoing project online. It's
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been going since two thousand and eighteen. We have we've just crossed two hundred
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inchries on that. But basically the
way that works is people just go to
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my blog and respond to five questions
and the new ones posted every Tuesday,
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and that's really just kind of a
celebration of the different ways that people respond
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to Tolkien's work, and that eventually
led to a podcast which kind of does
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the same thing, but with notable
scholars and notable community organizers and things like
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that, and so that it's been
a really, really fun journey with that
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also was was fortunate in that I
applied to be the editor of Maloren and
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they accepted my application. So,
Yep, I'm I am now pushing forward
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in both my reception studies and also
the editorship of Mal Owen, is much
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more traditional in terms of dealing with
a lot of topics that we consistently deal
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with in Tolkien Studies. You know
what, what were his influences? Is,
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inspirations. Let's look at his languages, those kinds of things. So
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I'm up to I'm up to my
ears and Tolkien and I love it.
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Well, that's that's amazing and I
love you know, I did visit the
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tolken experience website and I did see
some of the stories there and it is
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actually super cool to see how different
people have, as you said, responded
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to Tolken's work and what they're experience
with Tolkien's work is. So let's you
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know, I guess drop the elephant
in there are not necessarily the elephant in
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the room, but with Amazon's latest
the tears are trailer came out. Before
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that, it was the teaser posters. Before that it was castings. It's
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just been like every time, it
seemed like every time Amazon was releasing information
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about the rings of power, it
was being met with some sort of backlash.
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Now for anybody who's listening to the
show right now who doesn't know,
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which would be weird, because if
you don't know about this, I mean
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get out from the rock that you're
living under. I guess the Rings of
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power is supposed to be set in
the second age. It's supposed to being
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based off of, or at least
inspired or adapted from, whatever Amazon has
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available to it, which is essentially
the Lord of the Rings Books, correct
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me if I'm wrong, at the
appendices of fellowship to towers, return of
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the king and the Hobbit, it's
it's a little tricky exert. We've seen
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actors and actresses reading the silmarillion and
unfinished tales, but the Vanity Fair article
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that came out said that they've only
have the rights to the appendices of the
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Lord of the Rings and any excerpts
from the Lord of the Rings or the
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Hobbit that mentioned those stories. So
like when Eric Goren tells the hobbits about
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the the love story of Baron and
Luthian when they're on weathertop, that kind
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of thing. Okay. So,
yeah, tricky, very like, you
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know, beard beutween the lines.
So what's interesting about this to me is
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that the deeper I went into the
conversation that was happening on mine, the
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I even got to a point where
I even saw someone sort of share some
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of what was being said about the
first adaptation of the Lord of the Rings,
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which is by Peter Jackson. Some
of the sounded like the same conversation,
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which is crazy to me because,
like back when the Lord of the
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rings came out, I wasn't even
online, so I didn't even have a
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facebook at the time, I don't
think. So I wasn't preview to any
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of that toxicity. I was just
enjoying the movies and I loved it.
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Now it's like everything is, everything
is out in the open, twitter,
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facebook, read it. It's like
it's everywhere. As someone who isn't a
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white person. I I have to
do it this way because it's for me.
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All of this whole conversation is a
little weird and I feel like it
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should be a lot simpler than it
is. As a as a person who
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comes from the Middle East, who
is a minority in some form, shape
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or form. I did the conversation
regarding representation, inclusion and diversity as always
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been very interesting to me, specially
because when I grew up, I never
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necessarily sought after or felt somehow left
out of anything that I was watching in
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terms of movies or TV shows or
the books that I was reading, and
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I never felt like I was going
to them as an audience member or a
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reader going why I am, why
is there not a person that looks like
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me in this? HMM, and
that's always been my thing. Like I
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enjoyed the movies for they are,
I enjoyed the characters and connected with the
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characters for who they are, not
necessarily what they looked like per se.
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Do I understand that the the other
side of it, where you do see
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someone or read about someone that is
similar to you in some way, shap
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or form, is that a Cathartic
experience or an experience of semi like the
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idea of feeling like you're being seen. Yes, absolutely, I've had that
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experience where I've seen something or watch
something where it's like, even if it's
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a character that doesn't look like me, if it's a similar experience, I
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connect with that character on a different
level. However, I feel like what's
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happening online now because of the the
environment that we're in, and I feel
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like it's been sort of becoming more
and more outspoken and more aggressive. And
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when I talk, and I want
to make this very clear for all my
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listeners, I am I'm very center
as a person. I'm very I try
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to look at things very objectively.
I don't side with one versus the other.
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I'm trying to find again, I'm
trying to have these conversations in a
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way that is meaningful, educational and
also we're both parties. You know,
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wherever, whoever is listening to these
conversations walks away feeling like they learn something.
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So I feel like there's aggression on
both sides of the spectrum, varied.
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It comes from very different places,
if you will, or motivations,
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but the aggression is there. Nonetheless, as as someone who has studied storytelling
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in many ways literature, you know
stories, you've read Tolkien's work. Even
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Your Your PhD dissertation, as you
said, was all about how do you
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sort of receives, or how people
receive Tolkien's murder work? Where do you
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think what has been lost in translation, if you will, because there it
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feels like there's something that's lost in
translation, there's something that is not reaching
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everybody the same way. Do you
mean what's lost in translation between the work
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and fans, or between fans discussing
with one another? Both will start the
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but what? Let's start between the
work and the fans then, because I
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feel like that's more important as a
starting point. The work in the fans
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feels to me like there is a
disconnect, because it's not just the Lord
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of the Rings Fandom, it's all
fandoms, like all fandoms. I even
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found I don't know if you've heard
of there's the show on paramount plus called
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one thousand eight hundred and eighty three. It's all about its about the the
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West, you know, America back
in the day, etc. I even
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found toxicity within the fandom of that
show and I was just like nothing is
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safe anyway. It's just like NUSS. Nothing is safe. Star Wars is
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imploded. That the marvels thematic.
That's imploading. You're tolken's imploading, like
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it just feels like all fandoms are
angry for some reason. So there is
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a disconnect, there's something that is
being lost in translation between the work and
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how we as fans, or we
as audience members and readers, are receiving
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the work. HMM. So I'm
gonna going to use a little bit of
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literary theory, but I'm going to
make it as as painless as I possibly
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can. I don't know, go
for it, go for it please.
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So when we when we read literature, they're these things that that I sir
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called gaps, and these are the
places where we as readers use our experience
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to fill in the things that the
author never tells us. And so there
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are parts within Tolkien's work, and
with any work, where we make assumptions
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as readers, and that's a good
thing that that's that's a feature, not
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a flaw, of literature, because
it allows us to fill in the story
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without the author having to tell us. Like he took his he took a
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step with his left foot, he
took a step with his right foot all
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the way through the story. Those
kinds of things we don't need. We
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don't need them explain to us.
We can imagine them. That's tricky,
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though, because since we use our
personal experience to fill in those gaps,
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what one person assumes to be there, a different person might assume something else,
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and where you see a lot of
con click come up is where those
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assumptions have been taken by the reader
to be authoritative. You know, the
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assumption that I've made that all hobbits
are white was written by Tolkien. Well,
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that's actually not true. Tolkin talks
about a difference in skin color among
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hobbits. So you know that they're
there are differences that we have an interpretation
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that we need to be aware where
they're our interpretation versus where they're actually in
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the text. The other thing that
we have to keep in mind is once
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a text is published, we have
a different we have different measures of finding,
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quote unquote, meaning in the text. Anyone who studied literature at the
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undergraduate level has has been educated in
the the kind of triangulation of meaning you
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have the author you have the text
and you have the reader and, depending
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on what type of scholarship you're using, you put an emphasis on a different
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focal point as to what makes the
meaning. So, for instance, if
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you use new critical theory, that's
looking for themes, all of the things
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that, at least in in America, this is what you're trained to do
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in high school, is new critical
theory, and this is the text is
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where you find all of the meaning. This was actually a newer thing.
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It was started in the twenty,
nineteen and twenty centuries. The sorry,
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the eighteen and twenty inury. These
eighteen and nineteen centuries tongue tied. There
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you're getting, and so it's actually
a newer way to read a text.
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But the whole point was to give
tools where anyone could actually interpret a work.
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You didn't have to have an advanced
degree to figure out what the work
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meant. We can actually diagnose these
tools and give it to even high schoolers
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and they can understand the work.
So in a way that's great, but
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in another way what that does is
that means the readers not allowed to make
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meaning and the the authors not allowed
to make meaning. So then you have
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other schools of thought that come in. So like read a response says that
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the ultimate meaning lies in the hands
of the reader. And, to be
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fair, we haven't really put an
emphasis on the author's intent of a work
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since since roll on Barths wrote the
death of the author. That's a good,
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you know, half a century at
this point. So you also have
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a lot of these arguments come down
to, well, if my interpretations different
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from your interpretation, what is tolkien
say in his letters or those kinds of
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things, where it's like that's actually
not an effective appeal when you're trying to
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determine between different interpretations, because all
you're doing is you're telling me what one
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other person's interpretation is. Sure he
happens to be the author, but once
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the text is out in public,
the author can't determine meaning of that work,
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and so it's just different conversations that
people are trying to have at different
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levels where I think what we all
need to do is realize my interpretation is
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unique to me and it has a
lot of meaning to me. After all,
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it's what drove me to do my
PhD. It drove me into early
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British literature in fact. But that
doesn't mean it has to be the one
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interpretation that everyone has to share.
It can be awesome and be unique and
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in fact, isn't that in itself
wonderful that we all have our own unique
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experience of Tolkien personally? One thing
I like to say is if tolkien read
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the same for every single person,
we would have stopped studying them a long
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time ago because someone would have come
and written the book on Tolkien and that
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be it. The conversation would be
over. And so I think having an
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appreciation of the different ways to read
a book is really important and I think
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when we come across a reading that
we don't agree with, we want to
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challenge it and defend the work.
But it doesn't need to be defended because
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it doesn't change how you read it, doesn't change how I read it.
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If someone else reads it differently,
it's still there, it's the same text.
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It'll be okay. So I think
realizing there's there's not really the need
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to defend it and realizing we don't
all have to have the same interpretation and
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appreciating everyone else's response. I think
those are key things to really kind of
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calming down the situation. And the
one caveat I have to mention every time.
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I say this is the one reading
that I do not support is a
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reading that encourages hatred for other people, specifically a racist reading of Tolkien.
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And those are possible. I have
seen those. I have seen those use
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quotes and things like that to support
that, and that's just something I won't
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appreciate and I won't abide. But
other than that, unique, unique readings
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are wonderful right and I feel it's
the very similar in the film industry as
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well, or like that, you
know, the visual medium as well,
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because you do have you know,
I can watch a movie now and then
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have have it, you know,
like watch it ten years from now and
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it's going to be a completely different
experience because of what you know, like
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our experience, my experience feeling in
the gaps, or my experience sort of
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seeing things that I haven't seen before. This is exactly why I go back
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every year and I watch the Lord
of the Rings trilogy and every year,
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I kid you not, every year
I'm like, how did I not notice
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this moment before? Like that sentence
holds so much more meaning to me right
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now, like it, and it's
because it's because it's because of that,
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it's because our experience sort of allows
us to see the world and see film
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and see art and see creativity in
a completely new way. And I actually
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have spoken about adaptation because I do
want to, you know, move the
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conversation, you know, forward a
bit more specific and we'll get to we'll
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get back to the to the you
know, diversity, inclusion, representation aspect,
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especially with the rings of power.
But I recently wrote like a blog
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post about adaptation and how people who
critique or look at something and say,
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well, the book was better or
x was better than that or whatever.
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In my mind that's I'm like your
well, that's a very limiting perspective because
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they're very different mediums. I I
can't tell you how many times I got
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into fights with my with my friends
who are huge Harry Potter fans. I've
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read the books more than once.
I've seen the movies. I love them
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both equally, and I had friends
were like no, no, book was
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I'm like yeah, but there are
things in the book that you cannot necessarily
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put on screen. Like it just
doesn't work this way. And I have
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the benefit of having studied film,
so I understand what sort of works and
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what doesn't. A certain degree and
so this this is where for me as
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well, especially when it came to
like Jackson's adaptation, because I've gone deep
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into like all the behind the scenes
and the director diaries and like I've gone
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through that entire sort of journey vicariously, obviously through the behind the scenes,
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but I understand some of the decisions
that that that he had to make to
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us again to a certain degree,
because I obviously I haven't read the books,
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so I haven't had maybe all the
questions that you've had. Like,
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for example, the mountain. I
had no idea, for example, that
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that's news to me. So it
was. For me I was like,
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okay, so Sadoman's just being Sodoman, and now you're like it's actually the
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mountain being the mountain, and I'm
like, Oh, interesting, okay,
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well, I wonder why he made
that decision then. So yeah, for
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me it's like adaptation. When you're
adapting a work, you're it's a new
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perspective into the work. It's seeing
that it's just like, as you said
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earlier, it's like somebody writing a
book about tolking and it being the definitive
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book about Tolkien, versus multiple people
writing books about Tolkien and having different experiences
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and different responses to Tolkien's work.
It's the same thing when you're adapting.
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It's like somebody else is take in
the book and saying, well, this
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is my tribute or Omage or adaptation
of that work. So what are your
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thoughts then? Specifically, let's let's
take go back to the Lord of the
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Rings Trilogy, because I do want
to like now I'm curious and I do
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want to nitpick with you a little
bit, like do you are there aspects
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now in hindsight, because you said
that you were sort of a purist back
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in the day? Are you still
a purist when it comes to the film's
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now, or have you sort of
like released some of that a little bit?
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So it's I enjoy the film.
So I have I have friends that
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do a marathon of all the hobbit
movies one day and all the Lord of
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the rings movies the next day each
year and and I it's I've been attending
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those for a few, a couple
years now and you know, I really
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enjoy the film's. My perspective on
it is, you know, we have
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these books that have been voted,
you know, the the best to British
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books of the twenty century by the
British population. And then we have these
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films that are the most awarded films
in history. Like I think we can
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say that these are both objectively good
things. Like, well, granted,
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both of those measures are subjective,
but like both of them have received accolades
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in their own mill you. And
so, yeah, I don't, I
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don't understand the need to compare them
to give them value. That being said,
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I do, I do sometimes think
about the differences between them. I
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don't actively do it when I'm watching
the movies, just I try to turn
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that bit off and enjoy the movie, but then later on I'll think,
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yeah, they did this a bit
different, that a bit different. Yeah,
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so, so, kind of both
and both. And I like that
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because I guess I know for a
fact that it feels to me that the
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Lord of the rings came under less
of a heavy fire to a certain degree
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when it came to the adaptation,
versus what happened in the hobbits films,
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because those are a bit more like
people just went oh no when it came
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to that adaptation, specifically with with
Taudi L and and Feeley. That I
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know that for a fact that a
lot of people were just like, what
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is happening, and I feel like
in recent news as well. I don't
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remember where I ready but even Jackson
said that that wasn't part of the original
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plan. and Are Warner Brothers was
like, well, we need a love
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story for for these films, which
typically I can see that being a very
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plausible situation, because that's sort of
how the business works. You need a
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lot of I mean I know that
for a fact in Lebanon, like love
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stories need to be everywhere, in
in the visual you know, and whether
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it betv shows or movies, like
love stories, love stories, love stories.
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So it does feel to me like
it is a plausible thing where a
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studio say, as well know,
we need some form of a love story
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in the in these films. Okay, moving along to the rings of power
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and and sort of what's been happening
here. We started talking a little bit
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about it. You mentioned gaps and
and I feel like I love that,
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so thank you for sharing that side
of it. What's going on here feels
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to me like it's again, as
I said earlier before we started recording,
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like there's there's a line where I
am again where I'm sort of understanding because
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because I try my best each and
every day to hold space for people,
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even if I disagree with them.
I try as much as possible, I
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try to find the empathy and the
understanding to a certain degree. But there's
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a very like that line is very
thin when it comes to the conversation regarding
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the rings of power, I feel, and it's being crossed very quick lie
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and very aggressively. I wrote an
article again very recently where I was talking
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about, you know, what I
feel to me is proper representation and diversity.
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You know, there are certain things
that I am critical of because I
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understand how the industry works and I
understand that there is a there is,
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you know, whether we want to
admit it or not, I see it
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for a fact. You know,
there is definitely some political or propagandizing or
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something that is much deeper than just
the art in and of itself in general,
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not specifically talk about the rings of
power. There is a there is
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something that is that is moving that
or motivating those decisions. But I am
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also, as I said earlier,
definitely pushing for more representation, as long
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as it is done the right way. And for me, what the right
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way is is if, if you
know, because again there's a big difference
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between Tokenism and representation. You know, and I've seen tokenism and it is
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not cool. But when I in
my article go and say you want to
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do representation right, then create original, fully fleshed out characters within whatever you
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know ten pole that you want to
create, whether it be race, whether
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it be gender, whether be sexual
identity, if you want to create these
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characters, create them in a way
that is original, that is authentic,
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that is organic to the story,
where people who see it will really have
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a catharsis with when they're watching it
and it's not just like a passing character
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in the background. So I cannot
say that and then look at the rings
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of power and go, well,
this is just wokeism, because it's not,
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because the characters that are people of
Color in the rings of power are
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original characters within the sandbox that tolkien
created and set up for people. And
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this is a quote, while I'm
messing up the quote, but he did
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say, you know, I want
more people to come in and share in
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this world. In a matter of
speaking, I want different artists and and
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and, you know, different perspectives
to play within this sandbox that I've created.
406
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:40.920
You're finding the quote, aren't you? That's awesome. So I just
407
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.720
I don't like, you know,
immediately, and I think I said this
408
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:49.519
to you in the message, I
was at first, I was one of
409
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.720
the slightly critical people when I saw
the castings in the beginning, and I'm
410
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:59.880
not ashamed to admit that because I
you know, we all make irrational judgments
411
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.680
at first or assumptions at first,
and when I saw it, I was
412
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.880
just like, I don't get why
they're doing this, because not that I
413
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.160
don't want or again, not that
I don't want representation in fantasy. The
414
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.680
Dragon Prince is an animated TV show
on Netflix and it has representation and it
415
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:21.039
is done so beautifully and I love
them for that. So but in the
416
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.559
beginning I was just I don't get
it, like if they're sort of filling
417
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:30.160
fitting within the realm of what it's
already been established visually, this doesn't work.
418
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:35.240
It just feels often weird. It
doesn't work. Not to mention that.
419
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:38.599
The more I found out about it
and then when I realized that Princess
420
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.319
Dize, who's supposed to be that
one of the newer characters, she's the
421
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.640
dwarfin princess of Haza Doom. In
my mind I'm like, so Haza doom
422
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.680
is going to be destroyed by the
end of the series, because we know
423
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.799
that that's going to happen. It's
going to sort of like fallen crumble so
424
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.079
that by the time we get to
fellowship of the ring it is what it
425
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.119
is. It's a you know,
it's a tomb. So are we just
426
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.079
like obliterating all the people of Color? Then? is in that problematic as
427
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:12.039
well? So I had all these
questions coming into my mind. So we're
428
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.800
we're do you see this conversation go? I'm trying to phrase the question because
429
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.679
again, like the reason why you're
here is because I want to have this
430
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:30.639
conversation the line and I've seen people
on your twitter feed crossing that line.
431
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:34.719
I've seen the attacks that you've had
to faith. I've seen other attacks.
432
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.199
Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair was just
posting about someone that she knows that was
433
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.360
just like that had rape and death
threats. That is not a like,
434
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.280
that is not okay. That is
not okay in any any like. Nothing
435
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:54.159
justifies this. Nothing justifies this.
So we're where. Do you think not
436
00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:57.760
necessarily weird. Do you think things
are headed? Because we can't predict that,
437
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:01.039
but like what do you feel like
is the true cause of what is
438
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:07.400
going on? Because again, to
just blanketly say that it's all racism,
439
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:15.119
I don't think that everybody that's critiquing
is under that umbrella, but there are
440
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:24.119
very loud people that are. So. Yeah, so, to give you
441
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:32.679
that quote, what Tolkin says is
it's kind of tricky because this is actually
442
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:38.320
the same paragraph where he's talking about
his vision to make a mythological cycle that
443
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:45.320
was inspired by England, which is
kind of a big racist talking point right.
444
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.639
But later in the paragraph he says
that I would draw some of the
445
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.960
great tales in fullness and leave many
only placed in the scheme and sketched.
446
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:59.519
The cycles should be linked to a
majestic hole and yet leaf scope, leap
447
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.480
scope for other minds and hands wielding
paint and music and drama. And then
448
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:15.039
the next word is absurd. Yeah, so he he did intend to,
449
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.960
like, like you were saying,
make it kind of a sandbox where people
450
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:21.480
can play and have ideas. And
if you're looking for those places where he
451
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.880
only left things sketched, the appendices
is a great place to do that.
452
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:34.159
So you know, from my perspective
this is not contrary to what Tolkien was
453
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:39.159
wanting. He wanted his world to
have life beyond him in a way and,
454
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:45.880
like you're saying, they are sketching
in stories that are new and in
455
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:53.119
that regard, why not have black
characters? You know, one of the
456
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.280
arguments that comes up over and over
and over again is Tolki and tried to
457
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:04.719
make his world as realistic as possible. That's true, and let let's just
458
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.840
point out there are black people in
the world like and there were black people
459
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:15.000
in Medieval Europe and medieval England and
there have always been black people there and
460
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:21.119
tolkien would have known that. And
so I don't think having black characters in
461
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:31.800
any way is disrespectful or is against
tolkien's intent. Personally, and I do
462
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:36.760
want to clarify that's my personal interpretation
of what Tolkien wrote, just like any
463
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:43.559
other argument is going to be our
personal interpretation of what Tolkien wrote. One
464
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:46.639
of my my friends says, unless
we have a wegiboard, we're all just
465
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:52.840
guessing. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot, and
466
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:00.840
so I think. So I agree
with some of what you've said in some
467
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:07.559
of it I kind of hesitate on. So I do think creating original characters
468
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:09.679
with an established stories is one good
way that you can have a full,
469
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:15.360
well developed character that's not originally there. Same time, I just have a
470
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.039
hard time saying to a block,
to all black actors, you can never
471
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.400
be Julius Caesar or you can never
be you know. And so there are
472
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:29.559
part of me does want for great
actors, regardless of their race or ethnicity,
473
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.480
to be able to play the great
roles and I don't think they should
474
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.320
be denied that just because historically it
was played by an actor of a different
475
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:42.760
ethnicity. So I don't know,
I kind of feel tension with that and
476
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.440
a and that's perfectly fine and and
that's sort of why, again, I
477
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.719
want to have these conversations because as
someone who is a like who someone who
478
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.880
is a filmmaker, right, as
someone who is a screenwriter, you know,
479
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:59.280
I've written a historical piece. I've
written that was sort of like my
480
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:07.039
thesis for my Master's program I wrote
a historical, historical drama about one of
481
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:13.360
the Phoenician princesses who was here on
this land back before all of this existed,
482
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.599
and in my mind, I'm like, well, I don't want someone
483
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.360
who is not Lebanese to play this
role, if it ever, you know,
484
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:27.360
if it ever becomes a thing.
And in that sense this is where
485
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.000
my article I think, specifies,
like I don't under like. This is
486
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:35.599
the one part of diversity or representation
that, for me, is like well,
487
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.400
that's you know, it it for
me it's very jarring. So I'll
488
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.880
give the the example that I gave
an in my in my piece, there
489
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.400
was a there's a there was a
BBC, I think it was BBC and
490
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:52.280
AMC. They both worked on a
series called Ann Buleyn and they cast add
491
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:59.599
an Ann Buleyn as a black actress. For me, that was very jarring,
492
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.360
not because again and had it's not. It doesn't come from a place
493
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.599
of like again, it doesn't come
from a place of racism. It just
494
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:08.480
comes from a place of but this
is supposed to be a historical fiction.
495
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.119
Like it doesn't it doesn't really work. But then I go on in the
496
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.840
article and say, well, if
it was a shakespeare adaptation of that,
497
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:22.079
so if it was like shakes,
Shakespeare's Julius Caesar or Shakespeare's hamlet or Shakespeare's
498
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:25.400
Macbeth or whatever. I've never been
bothered by anybody playing these roles. So
499
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.679
why is it okay for me to
see it on stage, but it's weird
500
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:35.000
when I see it on film?
Isn't it all just a play anyway?
501
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.280
And that's sort of the convert that
the questioning that I've had to go through
502
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:42.840
over the past couple of weeks,
and it was all sparked because of the
503
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.800
ring about you know, rings up
our conversation where I'm really sitting there going
504
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.360
what is where's the line, like, where do we draw the line of
505
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.000
like what is historically okay and what
is not? Very recently and by the
506
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:57.639
time that this episode comes out,
I'm able to talk about this because I
507
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:02.199
got screeners for the new Netflix show
Vikings Valhalla, and that show has also
508
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:07.320
been sort of like put under fire
because they cast a character who's supposed to
509
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:15.519
be this big historical figure called Harl
or Yarl Haakon something along those lines.
510
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:19.679
He's supposed to be this big figure
in in, you know, in that
511
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.800
history and that in that part of
the world's history, and he's a male
512
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:30.639
and he's clearly white. They cast
him as a female black actress, and
513
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:36.199
so a lot of people from Europe
and it was mostly European people who read
514
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.440
about this, and I went through
the reddit feed and all that stuff.
515
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.199
They were going crazy about it.
They're like what going on? Like that
516
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.199
is not who that person was.
Like why? Why do this if it's
517
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:51.159
supposed to be based on history?
Why do it? And this is where
518
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.400
it gets a little tricky for me, it's like, I don't mind if
519
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:58.199
their original characters. I know for
a fact that there are thousands upon thousands
520
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:02.199
of people of color through route history
who deserved to be celebrated and talked about
521
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.320
in cinema. Why aren't we doing
that? Like, why aren't we writing
522
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.960
these stories or going through history and
making these shows about these people? Like
523
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:17.360
that, for me, would be
more beneficial than doing what is going on
524
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:22.920
now, which is why I always
go there has to be like they're potentially
525
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:29.280
has to be a political caveat somewhere
in there, because it doesn't feel like,
526
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.400
I don't know, it's very messy. It's very messy for me and
527
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:37.440
and and even as a person of
color, technically I'm like, I don't
528
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:43.519
you know, I yeesh. It's
very weird. It's very messy. There
529
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:49.320
are definitely times when it does feel
like, okay, if we just put
530
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.519
a black actor in this character,
we don't have to the we don't have
531
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.599
to produce the the movie that's based
on black people. Yes, there are.
532
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:04.719
There are times when you do feel
like sometimes the the way that incorporating
533
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:09.039
people of different ethnicities is kind of
a shield against having to do better.
534
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:15.480
Basically, yeah, I would agree
with that. So I think I think
535
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.840
there was a lot of backlash about
Bridgerton for this kind of thing. Like,
536
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:23.119
basically, it was still just a
story that was, you know,
537
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:29.679
aristocratic and could have been any people
of ethnicity in those roles, and so
538
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:37.360
it and feel like an authentic representation
of the time period and what different ethnicities
539
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.480
had to experience during that time period, kind of thing. So it's sorry.
540
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:46.079
Yeah, I saw Bridgerton and the
casting did not bother me because I
541
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:51.440
was like, this is supposed to
be a fiction, fictional world anyway.
542
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:55.159
So I wasn't bothered at all by
that. I actually quoted it in my
543
00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:00.079
article. I was like look at
Bridgerton, like Bridgerton did it so beautifully,
544
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.960
so fantastically. The Queen is like
she's so good, like the actress
545
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:08.800
is so good, and I wasn't
bothered because I knew going in that this
546
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.079
wasn't based on history. This was
a fictional world. HMM. Yeah,
547
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.360
and I enjoyed the show too,
and we're wife and I are looking forward
548
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.239
to watching more of it when it
comes. Yeah, but I did see
549
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:29.360
that that that argument being made that
like we're kind of erasing the actual experience
550
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.639
of people of different ethnicities by just
putting people of different ethnicities in traditionally white
551
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:39.880
rolls kind of, if that makes
sense, and so I definitely agree that
552
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:49.159
that can be kind of an unhelpful
stop gap in some ways. I wholeheartedly
553
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:53.960
agree that we do need more actual
stories by more diverse writers and and we
554
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:02.079
need to actually produce writers of a
non white background more often. And so,
555
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.639
you know, this is when I
would typically post that meme of the
556
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.039
girl saying why not? Both like
like exactly, that's and that's a yeah,
557
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.440
I mean, I get that.
I guess that's that's a good way
558
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.280
of putting in. I like I
said, it is a very gray area.
559
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:21.000
It's a very messy area. I
wasn't sure if we would be able
560
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:27.440
to unpack all of it together,
but definitely the insight that you're sharing is
561
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:32.719
very well appreciated. So so then, going back to what I said about
562
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:36.679
the rings of power, one of
the things that I did mention was that
563
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:40.000
the idea that, like, if
the show is actually going to lead to
564
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:50.119
somewhere somewhat of a link to what
Jackson established, then these characters would eventually
565
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:57.000
have to meet their end to a
certain degree. Maybe, unless you want
566
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.639
to, unless you would, you
would go with well, you know,
567
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.760
Jackson stories about this aspect of the
world, so you're not going to see
568
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.639
the other different asplect. You could
defend it that way. So why not
569
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.960
both? Sure, what are your
thoughts regarding that, like, are you
570
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:20.400
concerned about it leading to that problematic
area at some point? So you kind
571
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.559
of anticipated me that the world is
big enough. We could just say Jackson
572
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:28.000
story takes place in a different place, because we we do know that.
573
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:32.400
They're they're talking about Lyndon and they're
talking about new minoir. And for anyone
574
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:37.199
who's going to read the books beforehand
this, this is going to be a
575
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.199
spoiler, but you probably have already
heard this. Anyways, new minore is
576
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.400
his atlantist story. So new MINORE
is doomed. We already know that.
577
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:49.960
So anyone who's on Newmanoir is going
to die, except for a small group
578
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:53.199
of people who makes it out safely, and so it will be interesting.
579
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:58.480
Do they have black new man Oorians? Because we do know. So the
580
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:04.000
idea of dark new manorians is canonical. It's not typically interpreted as meaning of
581
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.519
black skin, but they could go
that direction if they wanted to. And
582
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:13.440
so our literal interpretation of that that, I guess. Yeah, and so
583
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:16.239
I do think it would be interesting. Okay, do you you kill all
584
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:21.280
of the dark new manorians and have
only white people make it out? That's
585
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:24.960
a bit of a problematic yeah,
so you know, there are places where
586
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:28.760
you're going to have to be very
careful about the decisions that you make in
587
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:40.760
terms of representation. Now the other
thing that I think is really hard to
588
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:50.760
think about is so there is a
race problem within Tolkien zone writing, but
589
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:55.320
it's different from the race problem that
we have in Jackson's films. So if
590
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:04.440
you look at Tolkien's letters, it
seemed that he envisioned ORCs as, to
591
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:13.800
put it frankly, kind of an
Asian caricature. Okay, he basically,
592
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:19.400
he says they're kind of a less
attractive Mongol type. Sorry for the language.
593
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.159
Okay, and sorry that you in
the spot. I guess I didn't
594
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:27.199
you know, like. But what's
the conversation that's being had here, and
595
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.239
I do want to before you continue, I do want to put that disclaimer.
596
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.480
The conversation that's being had here is
meant to be in a very safe
597
00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:38.039
space where nothing is being said in
a way that is supposed to be or
598
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:45.880
hopefully not in a way that is
received as offensive or are insulting. We're
599
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.400
having this conversation because it I feel
like it's a conversation that needs to be
600
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:55.039
had, and whatever we're using,
as far as whether we're quoting what tolken
601
00:48:55.079 --> 00:49:00.000
is saying or anything along those lines, that's that's why we're using it,
602
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:07.320
nothing else. HMM. So that
seems to be what he had in mind.
603
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.840
That because that's what's in his letters. I'm not going to say I'm
604
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:15.000
certain, but that's what he has
said. And then you also have some
605
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:21.760
evidence, like the ORCS call the
rowharum white skins, so obviously they're they're
606
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.480
using that to distinguish themselves from the
Rowhum. So we know that, for
607
00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:31.199
instance, ORCs are not white skinned. So I tolkien's racism seems to be
608
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:37.880
more Asiatic or eastern, whereas if
you look at the Jackson films, Jackson
609
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:44.440
did things like put dreadlocks or braids
on the ORCs, and so his seems
610
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.159
to be a bit more of a
black racism in terms of the ORCS are
611
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:58.280
black, and so both of those
things represent a problem because now, if
612
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.599
you're starting a new show, what
are you going to do about that?
613
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:07.360
Who are your evil characters going to
be? And one of the things that's
614
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:10.880
kind of fortunate in terms of choosing
the second age is you can kind of
615
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:15.880
do a lot of political intrigue amongst
the groups of People's that are there,
616
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:21.000
because that's cannon, that's that's in
the text we have. You know this
617
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:24.599
this evil guy kind of infiltrates and
starts convincing people to do things that aren't
618
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.000
really great decisions, those kinds of
things. So you can kind of get
619
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:31.639
around it if you focus on on
kind of making it a court drama in
620
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:37.760
a way, courtly drama, something
like that. But if you do have
621
00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:43.519
kind of an US versus them somewhere
in here, how are you going to
622
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:50.800
negotiate those past racisms that are tied
in with the story? And I don't
623
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.920
really have the answer for that one. Yeah, it's it's very interesting because
624
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:59.480
I'd never I'd never, and that
could be due to my own ignorance or
625
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:04.000
or I just how I wasn't necessarily
privy into that conversation or that, you
626
00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.639
know sort of thing, but I
never realize that there was this like concern
627
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:13.880
regarding Jackson's films. I always just
thought that it was again, I look
628
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.920
at things. I look at things
from from a perspective of the industry,
629
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:22.480
from a even even not just as
a filmmaker but as a screenwriter. Like,
630
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:28.280
I never I don't see myself ever
going, or consciously at least,
631
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:30.159
I don't see myself going, well, this is what I'm going to do,
632
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:34.280
because this is what I'm, you
know, sort of hiding between the
633
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:37.000
lines. That's not how I write, that's not how I create, and
634
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:40.400
so I always give the benefit of
the doubt that that's not how other people
635
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:45.400
right and create as well, because
I don't believe, like I'm not gonna
636
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:47.480
go out there and say everybody's racist. I don't. I don't, you
637
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.440
know, like or racist in the
sense of like being rude or mean or
638
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.079
whatever. I know they're there.
Are Racists out there and I I've seen
639
00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:00.320
it for myself. I've lived through
some of it, so I know what
640
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.239
that's like. But I never thought
that, like I never saw the ORCS
641
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:09.239
as an allegory for racism. I
always just saw the ORCs as ORCs and
642
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:13.639
that was it. And and sort
of that's where I guess, that's where
643
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:17.440
my suspension of this belief is.
I don't always go into things because again,
644
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:22.199
I will never know what Jackson's intent
was. I'm never going to know
645
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.599
it and I'm not going to know
what the production designers intent was or the
646
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:28.960
costume designers intent was, even if
I watch all the behind the scenes,
647
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:32.719
I'm not going to know what they're
sort of what their experience brought into or
648
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:37.480
their perspective brought into the the work. So isn't that sort of it?
649
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:40.599
Doesn't that sort of like circle back
to that, you know, the triangulation
650
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:45.639
of meaning conversation, like we will
never know what the intent was. So
651
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:52.400
would I want to project that into
the the world and just I don't know,
652
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.159
like there are certain films obviously it's
very clear, you know, birth
653
00:52:54.159 --> 00:53:00.280
of a nation, very clear what
the intent was. But like something like
654
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.719
that, I mean I don't.
Personally I don't know because, like I
655
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:07.599
mean, the wheel of time also
has the the adaptation. I don't know
656
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:10.480
if you saw it, but I
mean the monsters look very orkish to and
657
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:15.639
they're also dark skinned, and it's
I almost feel like that's just the way
658
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:20.440
works are. See, like,
I don't I wouldn't see if an ORC
659
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:23.360
had like reds red skin or like
green skin or whatever. It would just
660
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.079
look cartoony to me. It wouldn't
look threatening. I don't know, it's
661
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:32.360
just like I don't know. So
I guess I do need to clarify that.
662
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:38.519
I'm not I'm not saying that Jackson
did that intentionally. It's more or
663
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:47.800
less we are products of our time
in a way, and because of that,
664
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:52.400
the the ideals and the images and
the things that we consume all influenced
665
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:58.079
the decisions that we make. And
because that's true, whenever we come to
666
00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:01.760
designing or think of an other,
as it were, we tend to project
667
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.719
onto that thing things that were less
familiar with. So, as as a
668
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:12.199
white man, my tendency would be
to project onto an other things that are
669
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:16.880
unlike me. So darkness, femininity, those things that that I understand less
670
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:23.719
than I understand myself. And the
problem is that's happened for thousands and thousands
671
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.400
and thousands and thousands of years,
where the white male identity has been in
672
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.880
the majority and been making all the
stories. And so over and over and
673
00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:35.840
over and over and over again,
you see the dark as evil, the
674
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:39.000
dark as bad, and so then
it's developed into the Arab as, you
675
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:43.639
know, run de menaliss crazy.
Yeah, exactly. And so all of
676
00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:49.320
these things develop into stereotypes, develop
into kinds of racism that we've been perpetuating.
677
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:54.960
And and not intentionally always. Sometimes, yes, but not intentionally always.
678
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:02.480
And so I think part of what
storytelling is now is dig deeper.
679
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.960
Yeah, that's the easy thing to
do, but now we are starting to
680
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:10.719
realize that that's also contributing to,
you know, some real problems in our
681
00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:15.599
world. If we only ever consume
stories where the people who have dark skin
682
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:20.480
are bad, what are we going
to think when we actually encounter someone who
683
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.440
has dark skin in the in real
world? You know, if my son,
684
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:28.320
who's an infant, if I only
ever read stories to him where the
685
00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:32.119
bad characters have black skin, he's
going to naturally have those associations with people
686
00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:38.119
with dark skin, and so,
you know, being more conscious of the
687
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:43.440
diversity in our portrayal of good,
in our portrayal of bad. I think
688
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:50.239
that makes us think about our own
world in a more mature way. Okay,
689
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.960
yeah, and I also think that
it leads to better writing, because
690
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.719
if you can't just show like a
person and never go one goes, oh
691
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:01.920
that's the bad person, it makes
you write someone who can be evil or
692
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:07.079
someone who can be good without just
an audience assuming it. And so I
693
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:13.599
think, yeah, I'm not I'm
not claiming that Jackson is racist and meant
694
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:20.800
for him his ORCs to be black
caricatures. I'm saying because of his own
695
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.559
experience it seems like he's writing them
as other and that happens to be black
696
00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:30.519
characters, black coded figures, and
that's the problem. And so hopefully,
697
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:35.599
if you're a new writer coming into
this, you're looking at both of them
698
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:38.519
and saying, okay, here's where
the problems were. We might make our
699
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:45.840
own mistakes, but let's not make
those again. So let's not code ORCs
700
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:51.920
as black if we can avoid it. Let's let's make some some evil baddies,
701
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:53.840
but let's do it in a way
that hasn't been done yet and and
702
00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:59.400
honestly I think that's that's an opportunity. It's a way to go deeper into
703
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:00.960
the world and figure out, okay, if we're not just going to make
704
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:06.280
all the ORCS look the same,
what can we do to to make orcs
705
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:10.519
make our audience understand what an ORC
is or how an ORC behaves, those
706
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:17.800
kinds of things? And are there
certain aspects of the source material that could
707
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:22.880
allow for this new interpretation? Or, you know, is there something within
708
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:28.800
the impendencies or is there something quote
unquote, canonical that you can sort of
709
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:36.599
take and and use to be able
to build on that? Yes, and
710
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:45.519
yes, they're. Tolkien never really
decided where ORCS came from. That's that's
711
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:52.239
a question that he had several different
origin stories. So it's so you could
712
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:57.039
say that they are elves that that
bad people took and and kind of corrupted
713
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.320
into ORCS, or they're men that
have been kind of corrupted into ORCS,
714
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:08.079
or so he had several different theories. So I cannot remember if any of
715
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:13.360
those theories are mentioned in the Appendices. I think it would be the corrupted
716
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:17.239
elves theory would be the one that
would be there. That's always what I
717
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:22.119
thought they were, especially the Udu
Kai, like I always I always pictured
718
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:24.400
them or or I don't know why, but in my mind I always felt
719
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:31.039
like they looked like you corrupted elves, the ears, just the way that
720
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.920
they moved, their their long they, the majority of them, have long
721
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.679
hair, at least the leaders have
long hair. I don't know. I
722
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:43.480
always felt that they were just a
corrupted entity, like an entity that just
723
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:49.559
like so corrupted. Tree Beard says
that trolls are a Mockri of ants,
724
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:53.920
just as ORCs are a Mockri of
elves, and then the Urchai are sorrowm
725
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:05.320
on taking ORCs and crossbreeding them with
men. And Yeah, Peter Jackson gets
726
00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:10.800
away with not showing the what Tolkien
seems to imply about the KAI, which
727
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:16.400
would be unfilmable if you ask me. Yeah, just by you describing it.
728
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:19.800
I was just like, oh no, we are crossing into not.
729
00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.559
I mean that would have gone gotten
like a rated are immediately. Yeah,
730
00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:28.039
they could, just like I would
much prefer to watch a goop pod.
731
00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:31.880
Yeah, that's much better, right, right, which also fell under a
732
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:37.199
lot of criticism back in the day
as well, apparently. Yeah, go
733
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:45.679
ahead. Sorry. So the there
are different options available to them in terms
734
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:52.000
of how they go about making their
their baddies. Basically. Okay, yeah,
735
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:58.119
and I remember like Azog was like
an albino ORC or like a white
736
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:05.039
work in the Hobbit, the hobbit
trilogy. I mean again, like,
737
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:09.000
as I said to you earlier,
like in the email, or not the
738
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.400
email, but the twitter message,
like I am super excited for this opportunity
739
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:19.599
that we get to live in a
world where now we get to revisit Middle
740
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.840
Earth again, and that, to
me, should have been enough for anybody
741
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:27.119
who loves Lord of the Rings like
that. Isn't that enough? Like it's
742
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.880
the same with the Star Wars Universe. I'm a huge star wars fans.
743
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:35.320
Just like we're getting animated shows,
we're getting live action shows. Stop Hating
744
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:37.400
on the thing that you love,
like, what is the matter with you?
745
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:43.920
And I feel like in today's age, more than more than ever,
746
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:49.440
I keep referring to Sam why's or
Samoa's Gamgee's quote in the film, because
747
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.320
I don't know if it's in the
books, where he says, you know,
748
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:53.679
there is good in this world,
Mr Frodo, and it is worth
749
01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:57.840
fighting for, and I feel like
yeah, like that's what I want to
750
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.599
see, like I want to see
people celebrating the things that we love and
751
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:05.079
not not destroying them, because that's
what it feels like the conversation is turning
752
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:07.360
into. It's just like it's imploding
in and of itself. And for us
753
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:13.079
to get to a point where we
can't even talk about Tolkien's work without somehow
754
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:17.239
someone somewhere getting triggered in defensive and
angry and aggressive and like an argument throws
755
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:21.880
out like that does nobody any good. Nobody wins, like it's just like
756
01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:30.119
nobody wins. It's so that is. That is from Tolkien and and there's
757
01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:37.960
a funny story from Sean Aston about
he didn't particularly like that line because he's
758
01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:40.760
a little it so beautiful, though, like it's so beautiful, but you
759
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:45.920
gotta remember the time at which they're
filming everything, and so they didn't want
760
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:50.639
the fighting to be like pro war, MMM, and so they were really
761
01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:54.760
he was really hesitant about that.
The other thing to think about that I
762
01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:00.639
think is funny is how how much
they thought about the the depiction of smoking
763
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:04.760
throughout the film. They thought it
was like really really, like, okay,
764
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:07.639
is this going to be a problem
for the ratings and things like that.
765
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.000
It was like, I don't think
anyone even thinks about that anymore,
766
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:22.679
but yeah, it's I think in
some ways we have gotten a little bit
767
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:30.239
spoiled. It's like, you know, we went years where we didn't have
768
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:36.400
any adaptation other than the animated adaptations
of Tolkien's work, and then we have
769
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.920
one adaptation and everyone's like okay,
that's it, that's the adaptation. Is
770
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:44.440
like no, let's let's do tons
of adaptations. I got in trouble like
771
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:51.480
a year ago when I said what
I'd love is for Middle Earth to kind
772
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.840
of become like a doctor who,
because if if you think back to like
773
01:02:53.920 --> 01:03:00.679
classic doctor who, what you had
was a TV series where you had a
774
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:06.639
protagonist that could go anywhere in time
do anything, and you had all these
775
01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:10.599
amazing science fiction writers who would just
come on and do one two hour story
776
01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:15.679
arc that would air over four weeks, and it's like we don't have that
777
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:22.199
of Middle Earth. That would be
amazing if we had the sandbox where a
778
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.960
lot of like really really good contemporary
artists and writers and stuff could just step
779
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.519
in and do like, okay,
here's the story I always wanted to see
780
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:34.400
in middle earth. Like that would
be incredible, and so I don't I
781
01:03:34.400 --> 01:03:40.480
don't understand not wanting more adaptations.
I totally understand not liking every adaptation.
782
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:46.440
I don't like every adaptation, but
I just move on and find the ones
783
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:52.400
that I do like. So I
am agreement. I'm in agreement with you
784
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:58.760
there of you know, I think
more is better in a lot of ways.
785
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:04.360
You know, I have heard the
argument of like watering down the brand,
786
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:09.079
especially I've heard that from like star
wars people of like there's so much
787
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:12.159
star wars, it doesn't mean as
much anymore, it's like, but you
788
01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:15.639
can just go back and watch the
original movies like yeah, it. And
789
01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:19.239
my argument against that is that it
doesn't mean as much to you, HMM,
790
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:24.000
anymore, but that doesn't mean that
it doesn't mean as much to someone
791
01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:27.840
else who is actually enjoying, you
know, enjoying the movies. I have
792
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:30.320
my issues with the sequel trilogy.
I'm not a huge like I have my
793
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.599
issues with them. I'M NOT gonna
say I'm not a huge fan of them,
794
01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:36.440
because I've seen them a lot.
Like I have my issues, but
795
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:41.719
I still watch these movies and I
would never in a million years want to
796
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:46.119
walk up to someone who absolutely loves
these films or discovered Star Wars because of
797
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.760
these films and go you know what, your opinion doesn't count because x,
798
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:55.920
Y and Zad. How narcissist like? It's not, I don't even know
799
01:04:55.920 --> 01:05:00.320
it's a narcissistic it's just like egotistical. Like how narrow and egotistical do you
800
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:04.320
have to be to want to deny
somebody else's experience within the world or the
801
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:12.119
universe of Star Wars because you don't
like you think it's watered down, but
802
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.480
that that doesn't mean that it's true. And again, as you as you
803
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:17.239
said, and I'm an agreement with
you there, if you don't like the
804
01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:23.800
new trilogy, it doesn't. Did
you know? It doesn't dismiss the original
805
01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:28.159
trilogy or the prequel trilogy or anything
else that exists. You know, if
806
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:30.480
if Disney doesn't want to use the
legends books, which are like the books
807
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:32.880
that were written back in the day
that are now sort of like, quote
808
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:39.079
unquote, Uncannon, if you enjoy
them, enjoy them, good for you.
809
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:43.199
Like amazing. You know. So
why can't like? Why can't people
810
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:45.440
get to that point in all fandoms? I don't know, like it's easy,
811
01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:49.519
like it's really easy, like shoot
the choose the path where you're constantly
812
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:54.599
angry or choose the path where you're
chilling calm. Like why choose anger?
813
01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:58.360
I don't know, like what?
Why choose anchor, like I you know,
814
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:02.400
you know with in the Tolkien fandom. We've seen this with the hobbit
815
01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:09.719
films. So you know, the
hobbit films across the board have have been
816
01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:14.800
derided as not as not as good
as the Lord of the Rings Films,
817
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:19.840
and it for some people has crossed
over into well, if you liked the
818
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:23.360
hobbit films or that's how you got
into Tolkien, then you're not a real
819
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.639
tolkien fan because those aren't really tolkien. And and that's ridiculous to me because
820
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:32.239
it's essentially like, okay, if
you're of a certain age and your parents
821
01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:35.480
loves tolkien and they took you to
see the hobbit films, that happens to
822
01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:40.360
be the first thing that you got
into and you were excited because your parents
823
01:06:40.360 --> 01:06:44.880
likes tolkien. So suddenly you're not
a Tolkien fan because you're that's how you
824
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.159
were first exposed. It's just silly
to me. Yeah, absolutely, and
825
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:51.880
then again, like are there things
to critique in the hobbit films. Absolutely,
826
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:56.239
I there's a lot of stuff I
could critique in the hobbit films,
827
01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:59.199
but there are things in the hobbit
films that absolutely love, like there are
828
01:06:59.199 --> 01:07:03.079
some sequences that I adore. That
and then how our chores music in the
829
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:09.239
hobbit films is is excellent. Like
there are some tracks that I that I
830
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:12.599
love, like as much as I
have issues with the toy the Toril and
831
01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:16.880
and Feeley Romance, the theme that
Short created for that romance is a track
832
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:20.719
that I play over and over and
over again because it's so beautiful, it's
833
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:26.559
so melodic and so you know,
it's so orchestrally beautiful, composed beautifully.
834
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:31.039
There are good things that you can
find, you know. And Yeah,
835
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:38.079
it's just it's sad that we've gotten
to this place. But I I will
836
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:42.840
not, I will not lose hope, you know. Yeah, I won't.
837
01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:46.039
I won't lose hope because that's just
I tried at one point be like
838
01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:48.960
okay, I'm done, I'm not
gonna just I'm just going to be cynic.
839
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:53.360
Didn't last long. It just didn't. It's not it's not part of
840
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:55.960
WHO I am. As worst.
It's just like I couldn't do it.
841
01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:59.800
I wanted to enjoy things again and
I wanted to because, yeah, because
842
01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:01.400
I got to a point where I
was one of those very angry fans on
843
01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:05.239
many things, not just it was
more like the film industry in general.
844
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:09.400
I was just an angry, angry
person about Hollywood. I was just like,
845
01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:12.679
I don't agree with what Hollywood's doing. I was so angry and I
846
01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:15.079
just realized that I ended up hating
the thing that made me who I like,
847
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.520
that is so integral to who I
am as a person like and so
848
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:26.119
I shift it back and that's why
I'm here and having these conversations. Yeah,
849
01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:32.479
I know of a tolkien scholar who
loves tolkien and then she got into
850
01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:39.439
feminist theory and women studies and that
kind of thing and for years she was
851
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:44.319
afraid to go back to Tolkien because
she knew, you know, this is
852
01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:47.600
an older story. You know,
is it gonna is it just going to
853
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:50.079
be ruined if I go back and
read it? And she finally went back
854
01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:55.720
and read it and she was still
able to love it, and so now
855
01:08:55.760 --> 01:08:59.960
that's one of her favorite stories to
work on, even from the the Queer
856
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.600
in feminist perspective, because it's something
that she loved long ago before she even
857
01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:09.680
found all the different theories that she
now uses. So it's it's that saying
858
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:16.800
kind of you can't hate something that
you love, because then you end up
859
01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:20.920
just kind of hating that part of
yourself. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,
860
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:27.279
and especially because when you're reading a
book or and I posted this today on
861
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:31.239
twitter, it's like stories are reflections
of us, like there are a mirror
862
01:09:31.279 --> 01:09:35.319
that reflect us, our soul,
our values are perspectives who we are,
863
01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:38.920
what makes us we are. Are
Good side, are bad side, like
864
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.560
all of it. Like their reflections
of us. So if we hate these
865
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:47.439
things, then says a lot,
I think. If you're going in there
866
01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:51.000
and hating all this stuff because x
wires ad, it's like, well,
867
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:54.479
those are aspects of your self that
you probably hate. I don't know.
868
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:58.479
I mean I that's that might be
a little too deep into the like a
869
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:02.720
psychoanalyzing the entire situation. But yeah, I mean I totally agree with you.
870
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:09.880
I totally agree with you on that. Well, I have totally enjoyed
871
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:13.800
this conversation. It's been like I
feel yeah, I feel like I we
872
01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:15.439
could keep going, but I feel
like this is a good place to stop.
873
01:10:15.479 --> 01:10:19.319
I feel we discuss the things that
I wanted to discuss. You definitely
874
01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:26.119
shared a lot of stuff that I
I benefited from as well, and I
875
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:30.840
hope that whoever's listening will benefit from
those as much as I have. So
876
01:10:30.920 --> 01:10:34.119
I do want to thank you for
taking the time and coming on today.
877
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:40.399
If people want to follow you and
follow your work, how would they go
878
01:10:40.439 --> 01:10:43.680
about doing that? Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me.
879
01:10:43.720 --> 01:10:46.560
I had a lot of fun with
the conversation. So the easiest way
880
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:51.279
to find me is my website,
which is just luke sheltoncom. There you
881
01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:57.319
can find links to the project that
we talked about earlier or to the podcast.
882
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.159
I'm also on social media. If
you look at twitter, I'm at
883
01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:05.439
Luke B Shelton, and you can
also follow the tolkn experience on twitter,
884
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:11.960
which is at Tolkn XP, and
on facebook it's just tolken experience. Thank
885
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:15.640
you so much for that. So
excuse me. For those of your are
886
01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:18.560
listening who aren't following me on social
media. You could do so add stories
887
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:26.439
by Alan on twitter, on instagram
and on facebook. You could also help
888
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:29.720
support me in the show by visiting
my buy me a coffee, so it's
889
01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:33.840
buy me a coffeecom stories by Alan. You can join a monthly membership for
890
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:40.760
a for a small token of five
dollars a month, which allows you access
891
01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:45.680
to the early release of these episodes, as well as early release of my
892
01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:51.159
reviews and exclusive blog posts or articles. But if you also donate you'll also
893
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:55.439
get access to the articles and the
blogs alone. You won't get access to
894
01:11:55.479 --> 01:12:01.399
the early releases, but I will
definitely appreciate your your your donation and your
895
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:03.680
support. So thank you so much. You could also visit my website,
896
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:09.479
Alan Mahanacom. Thank you so much
for joining us on today's episode. Next
897
01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:14.359
week, this five episode arc continues
as we delve deeper into the world of
898
01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:18.760
representation, diversity and inclusion when it
comes to storytelling in any medium. Really
899
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:50.840
thank you so much for joining us
and have a wonderful rest of your day.
900
-->
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.359
Hi, guys, I'm it to
you. My Name is Joseph David Jones.
2
00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:06.559
Hey, this is Kevin Sussman.
Hey, this meny suit and John
3
00:00:06.599 --> 00:00:10.679
Re stay this on. You're listening
to script to scream, the script to
4
00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:31.640
screen, scrop screen, scripts,
screen, screen, hope, Bo and
5
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:37.159
welcome to the brand new episode of
script to screen. Alan here and,
6
00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:42.039
as I had said in our last
episode, I'm going to be doing scripto
7
00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:48.439
screen episodes in five episode Arcs.
I mean it's understandable someone who likes writing
8
00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:55.479
stories and serialized content. Arcs are
the way to do it. So it's
9
00:00:55.479 --> 00:01:00.640
a five episode arcs and I am
focusing these next five on a conversation that
10
00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:06.079
I've been dying to have on the
show. I've been actually not just dying
11
00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.159
to have on the show, but
dying to have period, and that conversation
12
00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:19.680
revolves around diversity, representation, inclusion
when it comes to stories, when it
13
00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:26.079
comes to storytelling. And on today's
show I have someone that I was able
14
00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.439
to reach out to on twitter.
I love celebrating when social media actually works
15
00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:38.560
in the positive sense and not in
the toxic sense. So I reached out
16
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:46.439
to Dr Luke Shelton on twitter,
especially after seeing his feed and and recent
17
00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:51.159
conversation surrounding Amazon's the rings of power, or is it the Lord of the
18
00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:57.799
Rings the Rings of power? Dr
Luke Shelton is the founder of the tolkien
19
00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.680
experience. He's also the editor of
Malorn, which is the newsletter for the
20
00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:07.719
Tolkien Society, news letter. It's
it's the Peer Review Journal, the Review
21
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:14.439
Journal for the Tolkien Society, which
is a massive I mean that's a massive
22
00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:21.639
community right there. And so seeing
us to how I'm a huge Lord of
23
00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.080
the Rings Fan, specifically when it
comes to the film side of it.
24
00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:30.199
I have tried reading tolken more than
once. Eventually I'm gonna do it.
25
00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.639
I know I'm gonna do it.
That's about I've given myself. I know
26
00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.560
I'm gonna do it because I respect
the professor so much for everything that he's
27
00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:45.639
done to the fantasy genre, and
Luke being who he is, I figured
28
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:50.960
it would be a perfect way to
start these next five episodes and talk about
29
00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:57.319
diversity, inclusion representation, especially because
it seems that the Lord of the Rings
30
00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:05.639
Fandom is has fallen victim to to
this conversation and the toxicity that surrounds it.
31
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.759
And this is any here and here
in lies the reasoning us to why
32
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:13.360
it to have this conversation, because
I believe that we are getting to a
33
00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.520
point in society where we're losing nuance
and we're losing the ability to have a
34
00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:25.280
conversation with different views without anger and
rage and and toxicity to sort of infect
35
00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:29.879
it. And I'm super happy to
have you on the show, Luke.
36
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.800
So thank you for joining me today. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so
37
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.840
much for having me. It's it's
been an interesting couple weeks with all of
38
00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:43.240
the announcements of Amazon show and and
a lot of the backlash and responses that
39
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.960
we've seen. I do think that
there are certainly some some valid critiques and
40
00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.639
observations to be made, and I
do think that there are some observations that
41
00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:57.680
are quite hurtful and uncalled for.
So I'm glad we can kind of dig
42
00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:02.599
in a little bit more. Absolutely, absolutely. So I usually have the
43
00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:06.479
first little the first bit here just
so that my audience gets to know who
44
00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:10.919
you are a little bit more.
I usually leave the mic up to my
45
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:15.000
guests to sort of take us on
a mini journey there and back again,
46
00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:21.800
many journey of how you got to
where you are today. You do have
47
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:28.639
a PhD in literature, which I'm
that's awesome, and you've also founded the
48
00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:31.240
token experience. So could you just
take us on that mini journey to see
49
00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.160
how you got to where you are
today? Sure. Well, my obsession
50
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.040
with tolkien started very, very young, so young I don't remember the first
51
00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:45.560
time I encountered the books. My
first memory is that when I was in
52
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:50.759
elementary school or primary school. I
was in fourth grade, I think,
53
00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:55.759
so that's probably around eight or nine
years old, we would have a storyteller
54
00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.920
come and tell recite chapters of the
Hobbit in installments and from memory, a
55
00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.879
different chapter each week, and I
must have known the story before then because
56
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:10.040
I remember sitting there and waiting for
him to mess up. I was very
57
00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:15.120
much that little kid who who wanted
things to be perfect. So you know,
58
00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:18.319
I loved Lord of the Rings and
Tolkien's larger work a lot. Starting
59
00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:24.360
then read the books before the movies
came out, shortly before the movies came
60
00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.920
out, but I was very much
an introverted child, so I didn't really
61
00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:32.959
know the movies were coming out until
they were actually here and watch the movies.
62
00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:36.959
At that point I was I was
still a teenager and still very much
63
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:42.279
in my kind of purest phase.
So I enjoyed the movies, but there
64
00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:46.920
were certain things that I did not
like about the movies very definitely, like
65
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:54.639
Peter Jackson making it the the snow
on Kara Dras B sorrow months fault.
66
00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.120
To me it was like no,
you took away Kara dress has volition there,
67
00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.800
so you've killed the earth basically.
So that was a big deal for
68
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:08.800
me. I do know that in
the commentary Peter Jackson gets away with saying
69
00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.759
like know what was happening with Saramond, was kind of egging on Kara dras.
70
00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:17.360
But no, that's not what it
looked like. It's not. But
71
00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:24.040
still, you know, I enjoyed
the movies and I you know, I
72
00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.839
had my nick picks, but I
still enjoy them and I come back to
73
00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.480
them pretty frequently, probably every other
year. I tend to read the books
74
00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.800
more, and I should clarify that
when I say read the books, I
75
00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.439
mean listen to the audio books.
I listened to the audio books once a
76
00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:45.040
year. I read the books frequently, but often in snippets, for for
77
00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:47.959
doing the editing that I do.
I often have to check citations and things
78
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.720
like that. So I'm constantly in
the books, but I don't sit down
79
00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:57.639
and read them through all the way
as often. Part of that as I
80
00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:00.519
have a HD, so it's hard
for me to sit there and focus for
81
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:05.600
that long. So then, after
that experience growing up, was a huge
82
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:13.319
fan through high school, got into
college and did English literature as one of
83
00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:18.480
my majors and in college and knew
that I wanted to go further into literature.
84
00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:24.319
But it was one of those times
when people said, you know,
85
00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.720
if you get a PhD in Tolkien, you're not going to get a job
86
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.560
doing that because people aren't going to
take that serious Lee. And so I
87
00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:36.120
actually did my ema work in early
British literature. My thesis was on Beowulf,
88
00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.399
obviously very tolkien inspired still. And
then I got done with my ema
89
00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.959
and looked around at the job market
in academia and for those of you who
90
00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:51.160
don't know, that's a very,
very tough job market right now, that
91
00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:57.040
has been for the last decade or
so. So then, realizing I wasn't
92
00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.600
necessarily going to get a job doing
the straightforward path either when it came to
93
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:03.160
doing my PhD, I decided I'm
just going to do my phd and the
94
00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.360
thing that I love, and so
that's how I ended up doing it on
95
00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.959
Tolkien with with Dmitri Fimi instead of
something more traditional, and I think that
96
00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.279
was the right choice for me because
I've I've really enjoyed it every day since.
97
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.480
So that's kind of how I got
the PhD. I got really lucky
98
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.720
in that and with that it's kind
of open some doors and let me do
99
00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.519
some things. So my PhD really
focuses on reception, the way that people
100
00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.480
respond to Tolkien's work. It's not
digging into like his motivate, tolken the
101
00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:39.519
motivations or anything like that. And
so out of that the youth correct yeah,
102
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.120
the PhD focused on the way that
young reader's readers under at the age
103
00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.039
of eighteen responded to the Lord of
the Rings. But that's always been my
104
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:52.480
passion and so from that I made
a wider project called the tolkien experience project
105
00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.960
that was open to anyone, and
that's still an ongoing project online. It's
106
00:08:54.960 --> 00:09:00.519
been going since two thousand and eighteen. We have we've just crossed two hundred
107
00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.720
inchries on that. But basically the
way that works is people just go to
108
00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.759
my blog and respond to five questions
and the new ones posted every Tuesday,
109
00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.159
and that's really just kind of a
celebration of the different ways that people respond
110
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.159
to Tolkien's work, and that eventually
led to a podcast which kind of does
111
00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:22.600
the same thing, but with notable
scholars and notable community organizers and things like
112
00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.559
that, and so that it's been
a really, really fun journey with that
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also was was fortunate in that I
applied to be the editor of Maloren and
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they accepted my application. So,
Yep, I'm I am now pushing forward
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in both my reception studies and also
the editorship of Mal Owen, is much
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more traditional in terms of dealing with
a lot of topics that we consistently deal
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with in Tolkien Studies. You know
what, what were his influences? Is,
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inspirations. Let's look at his languages, those kinds of things. So
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I'm up to I'm up to my
ears and Tolkien and I love it.
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Well, that's that's amazing and I
love you know, I did visit the
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tolken experience website and I did see
some of the stories there and it is
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actually super cool to see how different
people have, as you said, responded
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to Tolken's work and what they're experience
with Tolkien's work is. So let's you
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know, I guess drop the elephant
in there are not necessarily the elephant in
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the room, but with Amazon's latest
the tears are trailer came out. Before
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that, it was the teaser posters. Before that it was castings. It's
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just been like every time, it
seemed like every time Amazon was releasing information
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about the rings of power, it
was being met with some sort of backlash.
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Now for anybody who's listening to the
show right now who doesn't know,
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which would be weird, because if
you don't know about this, I mean
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get out from the rock that you're
living under. I guess the Rings of
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power is supposed to be set in
the second age. It's supposed to being
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based off of, or at least
inspired or adapted from, whatever Amazon has
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available to it, which is essentially
the Lord of the Rings Books, correct
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me if I'm wrong, at the
appendices of fellowship to towers, return of
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the king and the Hobbit, it's
it's a little tricky exert. We've seen
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actors and actresses reading the silmarillion and
unfinished tales, but the Vanity Fair article
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that came out said that they've only
have the rights to the appendices of the
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Lord of the Rings and any excerpts
from the Lord of the Rings or the
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Hobbit that mentioned those stories. So
like when Eric Goren tells the hobbits about
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the the love story of Baron and
Luthian when they're on weathertop, that kind
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of thing. Okay. So,
yeah, tricky, very like, you
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know, beard beutween the lines.
So what's interesting about this to me is
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that the deeper I went into the
conversation that was happening on mine, the
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I even got to a point where
I even saw someone sort of share some
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of what was being said about the
first adaptation of the Lord of the Rings,
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which is by Peter Jackson. Some
of the sounded like the same conversation,
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which is crazy to me because,
like back when the Lord of the
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rings came out, I wasn't even
online, so I didn't even have a
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facebook at the time, I don't
think. So I wasn't preview to any
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of that toxicity. I was just
enjoying the movies and I loved it.
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Now it's like everything is, everything
is out in the open, twitter,
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facebook, read it. It's like
it's everywhere. As someone who isn't a
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white person. I I have to
do it this way because it's for me.
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All of this whole conversation is a
little weird and I feel like it
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should be a lot simpler than it
is. As a as a person who
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comes from the Middle East, who
is a minority in some form, shape
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or form. I did the conversation
regarding representation, inclusion and diversity as always
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been very interesting to me, specially
because when I grew up, I never
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necessarily sought after or felt somehow left
out of anything that I was watching in
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terms of movies or TV shows or
the books that I was reading, and
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I never felt like I was going
to them as an audience member or a
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reader going why I am, why
is there not a person that looks like
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me in this? HMM, and
that's always been my thing. Like I
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enjoyed the movies for they are,
I enjoyed the characters and connected with the
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characters for who they are, not
necessarily what they looked like per se.
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Do I understand that the the other
side of it, where you do see
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someone or read about someone that is
similar to you in some way, shap
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or form, is that a Cathartic
experience or an experience of semi like the
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idea of feeling like you're being seen. Yes, absolutely, I've had that
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experience where I've seen something or watch
something where it's like, even if it's
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a character that doesn't look like me, if it's a similar experience, I
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connect with that character on a different
level. However, I feel like what's
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happening online now because of the the
environment that we're in, and I feel
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like it's been sort of becoming more
and more outspoken and more aggressive. And
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when I talk, and I want
to make this very clear for all my
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listeners, I am I'm very center
as a person. I'm very I try
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to look at things very objectively.
I don't side with one versus the other.
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I'm trying to find again, I'm
trying to have these conversations in a
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way that is meaningful, educational and
also we're both parties. You know,
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wherever, whoever is listening to these
conversations walks away feeling like they learn something.
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So I feel like there's aggression on
both sides of the spectrum, varied.
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It comes from very different places,
if you will, or motivations,
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but the aggression is there. Nonetheless, as as someone who has studied storytelling
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in many ways literature, you know
stories, you've read Tolkien's work. Even
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Your Your PhD dissertation, as you
said, was all about how do you
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sort of receives, or how people
receive Tolkien's murder work? Where do you
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think what has been lost in translation, if you will, because there it
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feels like there's something that's lost in
translation, there's something that is not reaching
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everybody the same way. Do you
mean what's lost in translation between the work
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and fans, or between fans discussing
with one another? Both will start the
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but what? Let's start between the
work and the fans then, because I
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feel like that's more important as a
starting point. The work in the fans
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feels to me like there is a
disconnect, because it's not just the Lord
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of the Rings Fandom, it's all
fandoms, like all fandoms. I even
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found I don't know if you've heard
of there's the show on paramount plus called
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one thousand eight hundred and eighty three. It's all about its about the the
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West, you know, America back
in the day, etc. I even
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found toxicity within the fandom of that
show and I was just like nothing is
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safe anyway. It's just like NUSS. Nothing is safe. Star Wars is
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imploded. That the marvels thematic.
That's imploading. You're tolken's imploading, like
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it just feels like all fandoms are
angry for some reason. So there is
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a disconnect, there's something that is
being lost in translation between the work and
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how we as fans, or we
as audience members and readers, are receiving
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the work. HMM. So I'm
gonna going to use a little bit of
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literary theory, but I'm going to
make it as as painless as I possibly
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can. I don't know, go
for it, go for it please.
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So when we when we read literature, they're these things that that I sir
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called gaps, and these are the
places where we as readers use our experience
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to fill in the things that the
author never tells us. And so there
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are parts within Tolkien's work, and
with any work, where we make assumptions
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as readers, and that's a good
thing that that's that's a feature, not
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a flaw, of literature, because
it allows us to fill in the story
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without the author having to tell us. Like he took his he took a
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step with his left foot, he
took a step with his right foot all
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the way through the story. Those
kinds of things we don't need. We
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don't need them explain to us.
We can imagine them. That's tricky,
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though, because since we use our
personal experience to fill in those gaps,
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what one person assumes to be there, a different person might assume something else,
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and where you see a lot of
con click come up is where those
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assumptions have been taken by the reader
to be authoritative. You know, the
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assumption that I've made that all hobbits
are white was written by Tolkien. Well,
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that's actually not true. Tolkin talks
about a difference in skin color among
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hobbits. So you know that they're
there are differences that we have an interpretation
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that we need to be aware where
they're our interpretation versus where they're actually in
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the text. The other thing that
we have to keep in mind is once
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a text is published, we have
a different we have different measures of finding,
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quote unquote, meaning in the text. Anyone who studied literature at the
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undergraduate level has has been educated in
the the kind of triangulation of meaning you
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have the author you have the text
and you have the reader and, depending
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on what type of scholarship you're using, you put an emphasis on a different
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focal point as to what makes the
meaning. So, for instance, if
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you use new critical theory, that's
looking for themes, all of the things
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that, at least in in America, this is what you're trained to do
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in high school, is new critical
theory, and this is the text is
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where you find all of the meaning. This was actually a newer thing.
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It was started in the twenty,
nineteen and twenty centuries. The sorry,
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the eighteen and twenty inury. These
eighteen and nineteen centuries tongue tied. There
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you're getting, and so it's actually
a newer way to read a text.
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But the whole point was to give
tools where anyone could actually interpret a work.
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You didn't have to have an advanced
degree to figure out what the work
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meant. We can actually diagnose these
tools and give it to even high schoolers
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and they can understand the work.
So in a way that's great, but
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in another way what that does is
that means the readers not allowed to make
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meaning and the the authors not allowed
to make meaning. So then you have
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other schools of thought that come in. So like read a response says that
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the ultimate meaning lies in the hands
of the reader. And, to be
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fair, we haven't really put an
emphasis on the author's intent of a work
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since since roll on Barths wrote the
death of the author. That's a good,
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you know, half a century at
this point. So you also have
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a lot of these arguments come down
to, well, if my interpretations different
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from your interpretation, what is tolkien
say in his letters or those kinds of
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things, where it's like that's actually
not an effective appeal when you're trying to
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determine between different interpretations, because all
you're doing is you're telling me what one
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other person's interpretation is. Sure he
happens to be the author, but once
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the text is out in public,
the author can't determine meaning of that work,
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and so it's just different conversations that
people are trying to have at different
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levels where I think what we all
need to do is realize my interpretation is
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unique to me and it has a
lot of meaning to me. After all,
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it's what drove me to do my
PhD. It drove me into early
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British literature in fact. But that
doesn't mean it has to be the one
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interpretation that everyone has to share.
It can be awesome and be unique and
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in fact, isn't that in itself
wonderful that we all have our own unique
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experience of Tolkien personally? One thing
I like to say is if tolkien read
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the same for every single person,
we would have stopped studying them a long
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time ago because someone would have come
and written the book on Tolkien and that
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be it. The conversation would be
over. And so I think having an
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appreciation of the different ways to read
a book is really important and I think
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when we come across a reading that
we don't agree with, we want to
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challenge it and defend the work.
But it doesn't need to be defended because
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it doesn't change how you read it, doesn't change how I read it.
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If someone else reads it differently,
it's still there, it's the same text.
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It'll be okay. So I think
realizing there's there's not really the need
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to defend it and realizing we don't
all have to have the same interpretation and
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appreciating everyone else's response. I think
those are key things to really kind of
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calming down the situation. And the
one caveat I have to mention every time.
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I say this is the one reading
that I do not support is a
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reading that encourages hatred for other people, specifically a racist reading of Tolkien.
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And those are possible. I have
seen those. I have seen those use
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quotes and things like that to support
that, and that's just something I won't
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appreciate and I won't abide. But
other than that, unique, unique readings
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are wonderful right and I feel it's
the very similar in the film industry as
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well, or like that, you
know, the visual medium as well,
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because you do have you know,
I can watch a movie now and then
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have have it, you know,
like watch it ten years from now and
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it's going to be a completely different
experience because of what you know, like
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our experience, my experience feeling in
the gaps, or my experience sort of
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seeing things that I haven't seen before. This is exactly why I go back
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every year and I watch the Lord
of the Rings trilogy and every year,
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I kid you not, every year
I'm like, how did I not notice
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this moment before? Like that sentence
holds so much more meaning to me right
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now, like it, and it's
because it's because it's because of that,
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it's because our experience sort of allows
us to see the world and see film
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and see art and see creativity in
a completely new way. And I actually
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have spoken about adaptation because I do
want to, you know, move the
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conversation, you know, forward a
bit more specific and we'll get to we'll
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get back to the to the you
know, diversity, inclusion, representation aspect,
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especially with the rings of power.
But I recently wrote like a blog
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post about adaptation and how people who
critique or look at something and say,
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well, the book was better or
x was better than that or whatever.
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In my mind that's I'm like your
well, that's a very limiting perspective because
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they're very different mediums. I I
can't tell you how many times I got
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into fights with my with my friends
who are huge Harry Potter fans. I've
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read the books more than once.
I've seen the movies. I love them
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both equally, and I had friends
were like no, no, book was
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I'm like yeah, but there are
things in the book that you cannot necessarily
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put on screen. Like it just
doesn't work this way. And I have
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the benefit of having studied film,
so I understand what sort of works and
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what doesn't. A certain degree and
so this this is where for me as
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well, especially when it came to
like Jackson's adaptation, because I've gone deep
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into like all the behind the scenes
and the director diaries and like I've gone
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through that entire sort of journey vicariously, obviously through the behind the scenes,
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but I understand some of the decisions
that that that he had to make to
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us again to a certain degree,
because I obviously I haven't read the books,
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so I haven't had maybe all the
questions that you've had. Like,
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for example, the mountain. I
had no idea, for example, that
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that's news to me. So it
was. For me I was like,
318
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okay, so Sadoman's just being Sodoman, and now you're like it's actually the
319
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mountain being the mountain, and I'm
like, Oh, interesting, okay,
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well, I wonder why he made
that decision then. So yeah, for
321
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me it's like adaptation. When you're
adapting a work, you're it's a new
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perspective into the work. It's seeing
that it's just like, as you said
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earlier, it's like somebody writing a
book about tolking and it being the definitive
324
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book about Tolkien, versus multiple people
writing books about Tolkien and having different experiences
325
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and different responses to Tolkien's work.
It's the same thing when you're adapting.
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It's like somebody else is take in
the book and saying, well, this
327
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is my tribute or Omage or adaptation
of that work. So what are your
328
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thoughts then? Specifically, let's let's
take go back to the Lord of the
329
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Rings Trilogy, because I do want
to like now I'm curious and I do
330
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want to nitpick with you a little
bit, like do you are there aspects
331
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now in hindsight, because you said
that you were sort of a purist back
332
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in the day? Are you still
a purist when it comes to the film's
333
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now, or have you sort of
like released some of that a little bit?
334
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.720
So it's I enjoy the film.
So I have I have friends that
335
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do a marathon of all the hobbit
movies one day and all the Lord of
336
00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.519
the rings movies the next day each
year and and I it's I've been attending
337
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:51.480
those for a few, a couple
years now and you know, I really
338
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enjoy the film's. My perspective on
it is, you know, we have
339
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these books that have been voted,
you know, the the best to British
340
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books of the twenty century by the
British population. And then we have these
341
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:10.559
films that are the most awarded films
in history. Like I think we can
342
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say that these are both objectively good
things. Like, well, granted,
343
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.920
both of those measures are subjective,
but like both of them have received accolades
344
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in their own mill you. And
so, yeah, I don't, I
345
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:30.799
don't understand the need to compare them
to give them value. That being said,
346
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I do, I do sometimes think
about the differences between them. I
347
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don't actively do it when I'm watching
the movies, just I try to turn
348
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that bit off and enjoy the movie, but then later on I'll think,
349
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yeah, they did this a bit
different, that a bit different. Yeah,
350
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:53.000
so, so, kind of both
and both. And I like that
351
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because I guess I know for a
fact that it feels to me that the
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Lord of the rings came under less
of a heavy fire to a certain degree
353
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when it came to the adaptation,
versus what happened in the hobbits films,
354
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:11.000
because those are a bit more like
people just went oh no when it came
355
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:17.119
to that adaptation, specifically with with
Taudi L and and Feeley. That I
356
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.599
know that for a fact that a
lot of people were just like, what
357
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is happening, and I feel like
in recent news as well. I don't
358
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:26.960
remember where I ready but even Jackson
said that that wasn't part of the original
359
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.920
plan. and Are Warner Brothers was
like, well, we need a love
360
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story for for these films, which
typically I can see that being a very
361
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plausible situation, because that's sort of
how the business works. You need a
362
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.079
lot of I mean I know that
for a fact in Lebanon, like love
363
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:51.079
stories need to be everywhere, in
in the visual you know, and whether
364
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:52.960
it betv shows or movies, like
love stories, love stories, love stories.
365
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:56.359
So it does feel to me like
it is a plausible thing where a
366
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.039
studio say, as well know,
we need some form of a love story
367
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:07.920
in the in these films. Okay, moving along to the rings of power
368
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.200
and and sort of what's been happening
here. We started talking a little bit
369
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:17.119
about it. You mentioned gaps and
and I feel like I love that,
370
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:23.559
so thank you for sharing that side
of it. What's going on here feels
371
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:27.240
to me like it's again, as
I said earlier before we started recording,
372
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:33.440
like there's there's a line where I
am again where I'm sort of understanding because
373
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:38.559
because I try my best each and
every day to hold space for people,
374
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.319
even if I disagree with them.
I try as much as possible, I
375
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:48.640
try to find the empathy and the
understanding to a certain degree. But there's
376
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.640
a very like that line is very
thin when it comes to the conversation regarding
377
00:29:52.640 --> 00:30:00.160
the rings of power, I feel, and it's being crossed very quick lie
378
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:07.640
and very aggressively. I wrote an
article again very recently where I was talking
379
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:14.519
about, you know, what I
feel to me is proper representation and diversity.
380
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.119
You know, there are certain things
that I am critical of because I
381
00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.119
understand how the industry works and I
understand that there is a there is,
382
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:25.799
you know, whether we want to
admit it or not, I see it
383
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:30.640
for a fact. You know,
there is definitely some political or propagandizing or
384
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.960
something that is much deeper than just
the art in and of itself in general,
385
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.039
not specifically talk about the rings of
power. There is a there is
386
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:47.319
something that is that is moving that
or motivating those decisions. But I am
387
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:57.359
also, as I said earlier,
definitely pushing for more representation, as long
388
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.200
as it is done the right way. And for me, what the right
389
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.960
way is is if, if you
know, because again there's a big difference
390
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.799
between Tokenism and representation. You know, and I've seen tokenism and it is
391
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.200
not cool. But when I in
my article go and say you want to
392
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:25.160
do representation right, then create original, fully fleshed out characters within whatever you
393
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.039
know ten pole that you want to
create, whether it be race, whether
394
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:32.400
it be gender, whether be sexual
identity, if you want to create these
395
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.640
characters, create them in a way
that is original, that is authentic,
396
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:41.960
that is organic to the story,
where people who see it will really have
397
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:47.279
a catharsis with when they're watching it
and it's not just like a passing character
398
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:52.000
in the background. So I cannot
say that and then look at the rings
399
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.920
of power and go, well,
this is just wokeism, because it's not,
400
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:05.640
because the characters that are people of
Color in the rings of power are
401
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:13.119
original characters within the sandbox that tolkien
created and set up for people. And
402
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.920
this is a quote, while I'm
messing up the quote, but he did
403
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:21.359
say, you know, I want
more people to come in and share in
404
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.079
this world. In a matter of
speaking, I want different artists and and
405
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:32.400
and, you know, different perspectives
to play within this sandbox that I've created.
406
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:40.920
You're finding the quote, aren't you? That's awesome. So I just
407
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.720
I don't like, you know,
immediately, and I think I said this
408
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:49.519
to you in the message, I
was at first, I was one of
409
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.720
the slightly critical people when I saw
the castings in the beginning, and I'm
410
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:59.880
not ashamed to admit that because I
you know, we all make irrational judgments
411
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.680
at first or assumptions at first,
and when I saw it, I was
412
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.880
just like, I don't get why
they're doing this, because not that I
413
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.160
don't want or again, not that
I don't want representation in fantasy. The
414
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:14.680
Dragon Prince is an animated TV show
on Netflix and it has representation and it
415
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:21.039
is done so beautifully and I love
them for that. So but in the
416
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.559
beginning I was just I don't get
it, like if they're sort of filling
417
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:30.160
fitting within the realm of what it's
already been established visually, this doesn't work.
418
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:35.240
It just feels often weird. It
doesn't work. Not to mention that.
419
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:38.599
The more I found out about it
and then when I realized that Princess
420
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.319
Dize, who's supposed to be that
one of the newer characters, she's the
421
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.640
dwarfin princess of Haza Doom. In
my mind I'm like, so Haza doom
422
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.680
is going to be destroyed by the
end of the series, because we know
423
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.799
that that's going to happen. It's
going to sort of like fallen crumble so
424
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:55.079
that by the time we get to
fellowship of the ring it is what it
425
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.119
is. It's a you know,
it's a tomb. So are we just
426
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.079
like obliterating all the people of Color? Then? is in that problematic as
427
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:12.039
well? So I had all these
questions coming into my mind. So we're
428
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.800
we're do you see this conversation go? I'm trying to phrase the question because
429
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.679
again, like the reason why you're
here is because I want to have this
430
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:30.639
conversation the line and I've seen people
on your twitter feed crossing that line.
431
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:34.719
I've seen the attacks that you've had
to faith. I've seen other attacks.
432
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.199
Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair was just
posting about someone that she knows that was
433
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.360
just like that had rape and death
threats. That is not a like,
434
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.280
that is not okay. That is
not okay in any any like. Nothing
435
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:54.159
justifies this. Nothing justifies this.
So we're where. Do you think not
436
00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:57.760
necessarily weird. Do you think things
are headed? Because we can't predict that,
437
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:01.039
but like what do you feel like
is the true cause of what is
438
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:07.400
going on? Because again, to
just blanketly say that it's all racism,
439
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:15.119
I don't think that everybody that's critiquing
is under that umbrella, but there are
440
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:24.119
very loud people that are. So. Yeah, so, to give you
441
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:32.679
that quote, what Tolkin says is
it's kind of tricky because this is actually
442
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:38.320
the same paragraph where he's talking about
his vision to make a mythological cycle that
443
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:45.320
was inspired by England, which is
kind of a big racist talking point right.
444
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.639
But later in the paragraph he says
that I would draw some of the
445
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.960
great tales in fullness and leave many
only placed in the scheme and sketched.
446
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:59.519
The cycles should be linked to a
majestic hole and yet leaf scope, leap
447
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.480
scope for other minds and hands wielding
paint and music and drama. And then
448
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:15.039
the next word is absurd. Yeah, so he he did intend to,
449
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.960
like, like you were saying,
make it kind of a sandbox where people
450
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:21.480
can play and have ideas. And
if you're looking for those places where he
451
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.880
only left things sketched, the appendices
is a great place to do that.
452
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:34.159
So you know, from my perspective
this is not contrary to what Tolkien was
453
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:39.159
wanting. He wanted his world to
have life beyond him in a way and,
454
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:45.880
like you're saying, they are sketching
in stories that are new and in
455
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:53.119
that regard, why not have black
characters? You know, one of the
456
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.280
arguments that comes up over and over
and over again is Tolki and tried to
457
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:04.719
make his world as realistic as possible. That's true, and let let's just
458
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:08.840
point out there are black people in
the world like and there were black people
459
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:15.000
in Medieval Europe and medieval England and
there have always been black people there and
460
00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:21.119
tolkien would have known that. And
so I don't think having black characters in
461
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:31.800
any way is disrespectful or is against
tolkien's intent. Personally, and I do
462
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:36.760
want to clarify that's my personal interpretation
of what Tolkien wrote, just like any
463
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:43.559
other argument is going to be our
personal interpretation of what Tolkien wrote. One
464
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:46.639
of my my friends says, unless
we have a wegiboard, we're all just
465
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:52.840
guessing. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot, and
466
00:37:52.960 --> 00:38:00.840
so I think. So I agree
with some of what you've said in some
467
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:07.559
of it I kind of hesitate on. So I do think creating original characters
468
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:09.679
with an established stories is one good
way that you can have a full,
469
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:15.360
well developed character that's not originally there. Same time, I just have a
470
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.039
hard time saying to a block,
to all black actors, you can never
471
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.400
be Julius Caesar or you can never
be you know. And so there are
472
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:29.559
part of me does want for great
actors, regardless of their race or ethnicity,
473
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.480
to be able to play the great
roles and I don't think they should
474
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.320
be denied that just because historically it
was played by an actor of a different
475
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:42.760
ethnicity. So I don't know,
I kind of feel tension with that and
476
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.440
a and that's perfectly fine and and
that's sort of why, again, I
477
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.719
want to have these conversations because as
someone who is a like who someone who
478
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.880
is a filmmaker, right, as
someone who is a screenwriter, you know,
479
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:59.280
I've written a historical piece. I've
written that was sort of like my
480
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:07.039
thesis for my Master's program I wrote
a historical, historical drama about one of
481
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:13.360
the Phoenician princesses who was here on
this land back before all of this existed,
482
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.599
and in my mind, I'm like, well, I don't want someone
483
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.360
who is not Lebanese to play this
role, if it ever, you know,
484
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:27.360
if it ever becomes a thing.
And in that sense this is where
485
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:30.000
my article I think, specifies,
like I don't under like. This is
486
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:35.599
the one part of diversity or representation
that, for me, is like well,
487
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.400
that's you know, it it for
me it's very jarring. So I'll
488
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:44.880
give the the example that I gave
an in my in my piece, there
489
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.400
was a there's a there was a
BBC, I think it was BBC and
490
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:52.280
AMC. They both worked on a
series called Ann Buleyn and they cast add
491
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:59.599
an Ann Buleyn as a black actress. For me, that was very jarring,
492
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.360
not because again and had it's not. It doesn't come from a place
493
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.599
of like again, it doesn't come
from a place of racism. It just
494
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:08.480
comes from a place of but this
is supposed to be a historical fiction.
495
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:13.119
Like it doesn't it doesn't really work. But then I go on in the
496
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.840
article and say, well, if
it was a shakespeare adaptation of that,
497
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:22.079
so if it was like shakes,
Shakespeare's Julius Caesar or Shakespeare's hamlet or Shakespeare's
498
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:25.400
Macbeth or whatever. I've never been
bothered by anybody playing these roles. So
499
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:29.679
why is it okay for me to
see it on stage, but it's weird
500
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:35.000
when I see it on film?
Isn't it all just a play anyway?
501
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.280
And that's sort of the convert that
the questioning that I've had to go through
502
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:42.840
over the past couple of weeks,
and it was all sparked because of the
503
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.800
ring about you know, rings up
our conversation where I'm really sitting there going
504
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.360
what is where's the line, like, where do we draw the line of
505
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.000
like what is historically okay and what
is not? Very recently and by the
506
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:57.639
time that this episode comes out,
I'm able to talk about this because I
507
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:02.199
got screeners for the new Netflix show
Vikings Valhalla, and that show has also
508
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:07.320
been sort of like put under fire
because they cast a character who's supposed to
509
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:15.519
be this big historical figure called Harl
or Yarl Haakon something along those lines.
510
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:19.679
He's supposed to be this big figure
in in, you know, in that
511
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.800
history and that in that part of
the world's history, and he's a male
512
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:30.639
and he's clearly white. They cast
him as a female black actress, and
513
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:36.199
so a lot of people from Europe
and it was mostly European people who read
514
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.440
about this, and I went through
the reddit feed and all that stuff.
515
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.199
They were going crazy about it.
They're like what going on? Like that
516
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.199
is not who that person was.
Like why? Why do this if it's
517
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:51.159
supposed to be based on history?
Why do it? And this is where
518
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:53.400
it gets a little tricky for me, it's like, I don't mind if
519
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:58.199
their original characters. I know for
a fact that there are thousands upon thousands
520
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:02.199
of people of color through route history
who deserved to be celebrated and talked about
521
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.320
in cinema. Why aren't we doing
that? Like, why aren't we writing
522
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:12.960
these stories or going through history and
making these shows about these people? Like
523
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:17.360
that, for me, would be
more beneficial than doing what is going on
524
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:22.920
now, which is why I always
go there has to be like they're potentially
525
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:29.280
has to be a political caveat somewhere
in there, because it doesn't feel like,
526
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.400
I don't know, it's very messy. It's very messy for me and
527
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:37.440
and and even as a person of
color, technically I'm like, I don't
528
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:43.519
you know, I yeesh. It's
very weird. It's very messy. There
529
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:49.320
are definitely times when it does feel
like, okay, if we just put
530
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.519
a black actor in this character,
we don't have to the we don't have
531
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.599
to produce the the movie that's based
on black people. Yes, there are.
532
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:04.719
There are times when you do feel
like sometimes the the way that incorporating
533
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:09.039
people of different ethnicities is kind of
a shield against having to do better.
534
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:15.480
Basically, yeah, I would agree
with that. So I think I think
535
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:19.840
there was a lot of backlash about
Bridgerton for this kind of thing. Like,
536
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:23.119
basically, it was still just a
story that was, you know,
537
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:29.679
aristocratic and could have been any people
of ethnicity in those roles, and so
538
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:37.360
it and feel like an authentic representation
of the time period and what different ethnicities
539
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.480
had to experience during that time period, kind of thing. So it's sorry.
540
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:46.079
Yeah, I saw Bridgerton and the
casting did not bother me because I
541
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:51.440
was like, this is supposed to
be a fiction, fictional world anyway.
542
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:55.159
So I wasn't bothered at all by
that. I actually quoted it in my
543
00:43:55.239 --> 00:44:00.079
article. I was like look at
Bridgerton, like Bridgerton did it so beautifully,
544
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.960
so fantastically. The Queen is like
she's so good, like the actress
545
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:08.800
is so good, and I wasn't
bothered because I knew going in that this
546
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.079
wasn't based on history. This was
a fictional world. HMM. Yeah,
547
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.360
and I enjoyed the show too,
and we're wife and I are looking forward
548
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.239
to watching more of it when it
comes. Yeah, but I did see
549
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:29.360
that that that argument being made that
like we're kind of erasing the actual experience
550
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.639
of people of different ethnicities by just
putting people of different ethnicities in traditionally white
551
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:39.880
rolls kind of, if that makes
sense, and so I definitely agree that
552
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:49.159
that can be kind of an unhelpful
stop gap in some ways. I wholeheartedly
553
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:53.960
agree that we do need more actual
stories by more diverse writers and and we
554
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:02.079
need to actually produce writers of a
non white background more often. And so,
555
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.639
you know, this is when I
would typically post that meme of the
556
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:12.039
girl saying why not? Both like
like exactly, that's and that's a yeah,
557
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.440
I mean, I get that.
I guess that's that's a good way
558
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.280
of putting in. I like I
said, it is a very gray area.
559
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:21.000
It's a very messy area. I
wasn't sure if we would be able
560
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:27.440
to unpack all of it together,
but definitely the insight that you're sharing is
561
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:32.719
very well appreciated. So so then, going back to what I said about
562
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:36.679
the rings of power, one of
the things that I did mention was that
563
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:40.000
the idea that, like, if
the show is actually going to lead to
564
00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:50.119
somewhere somewhat of a link to what
Jackson established, then these characters would eventually
565
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:57.000
have to meet their end to a
certain degree. Maybe, unless you want
566
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.639
to, unless you would, you
would go with well, you know,
567
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.760
Jackson stories about this aspect of the
world, so you're not going to see
568
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:07.639
the other different asplect. You could
defend it that way. So why not
569
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.960
both? Sure, what are your
thoughts regarding that, like, are you
570
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:20.400
concerned about it leading to that problematic
area at some point? So you kind
571
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:22.559
of anticipated me that the world is
big enough. We could just say Jackson
572
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:28.000
story takes place in a different place, because we we do know that.
573
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:32.400
They're they're talking about Lyndon and they're
talking about new minoir. And for anyone
574
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:37.199
who's going to read the books beforehand
this, this is going to be a
575
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:42.199
spoiler, but you probably have already
heard this. Anyways, new minore is
576
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.400
his atlantist story. So new MINORE
is doomed. We already know that.
577
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:49.960
So anyone who's on Newmanoir is going
to die, except for a small group
578
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:53.199
of people who makes it out safely, and so it will be interesting.
579
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:58.480
Do they have black new man Oorians? Because we do know. So the
580
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:04.000
idea of dark new manorians is canonical. It's not typically interpreted as meaning of
581
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.519
black skin, but they could go
that direction if they wanted to. And
582
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:13.440
so our literal interpretation of that that, I guess. Yeah, and so
583
00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:16.239
I do think it would be interesting. Okay, do you you kill all
584
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:21.280
of the dark new manorians and have
only white people make it out? That's
585
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:24.960
a bit of a problematic yeah,
so you know, there are places where
586
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:28.760
you're going to have to be very
careful about the decisions that you make in
587
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:40.760
terms of representation. Now the other
thing that I think is really hard to
588
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:50.760
think about is so there is a
race problem within Tolkien zone writing, but
589
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:55.320
it's different from the race problem that
we have in Jackson's films. So if
590
00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:04.440
you look at Tolkien's letters, it
seemed that he envisioned ORCs as, to
591
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:13.800
put it frankly, kind of an
Asian caricature. Okay, he basically,
592
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:19.400
he says they're kind of a less
attractive Mongol type. Sorry for the language.
593
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.159
Okay, and sorry that you in
the spot. I guess I didn't
594
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:27.199
you know, like. But what's
the conversation that's being had here, and
595
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.239
I do want to before you continue, I do want to put that disclaimer.
596
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.480
The conversation that's being had here is
meant to be in a very safe
597
00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:38.039
space where nothing is being said in
a way that is supposed to be or
598
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:45.880
hopefully not in a way that is
received as offensive or are insulting. We're
599
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.400
having this conversation because it I feel
like it's a conversation that needs to be
600
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:55.039
had, and whatever we're using,
as far as whether we're quoting what tolken
601
00:48:55.079 --> 00:49:00.000
is saying or anything along those lines, that's that's why we're using it,
602
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:07.320
nothing else. HMM. So that
seems to be what he had in mind.
603
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.840
That because that's what's in his letters. I'm not going to say I'm
604
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:15.000
certain, but that's what he has
said. And then you also have some
605
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:21.760
evidence, like the ORCS call the
rowharum white skins, so obviously they're they're
606
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.480
using that to distinguish themselves from the
Rowhum. So we know that, for
607
00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:31.199
instance, ORCs are not white skinned. So I tolkien's racism seems to be
608
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:37.880
more Asiatic or eastern, whereas if
you look at the Jackson films, Jackson
609
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:44.440
did things like put dreadlocks or braids
on the ORCs, and so his seems
610
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.159
to be a bit more of a
black racism in terms of the ORCS are
611
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:58.280
black, and so both of those
things represent a problem because now, if
612
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.599
you're starting a new show, what
are you going to do about that?
613
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:07.360
Who are your evil characters going to
be? And one of the things that's
614
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:10.880
kind of fortunate in terms of choosing
the second age is you can kind of
615
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:15.880
do a lot of political intrigue amongst
the groups of People's that are there,
616
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:21.000
because that's cannon, that's that's in
the text we have. You know this
617
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:24.599
this evil guy kind of infiltrates and
starts convincing people to do things that aren't
618
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.000
really great decisions, those kinds of
things. So you can kind of get
619
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:31.639
around it if you focus on on
kind of making it a court drama in
620
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:37.760
a way, courtly drama, something
like that. But if you do have
621
00:50:38.119 --> 00:50:43.519
kind of an US versus them somewhere
in here, how are you going to
622
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:50.800
negotiate those past racisms that are tied
in with the story? And I don't
623
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.920
really have the answer for that one. Yeah, it's it's very interesting because
624
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:59.480
I'd never I'd never, and that
could be due to my own ignorance or
625
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:04.000
or I just how I wasn't necessarily
privy into that conversation or that, you
626
00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.639
know sort of thing, but I
never realize that there was this like concern
627
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:13.880
regarding Jackson's films. I always just
thought that it was again, I look
628
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.920
at things. I look at things
from from a perspective of the industry,
629
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:22.480
from a even even not just as
a filmmaker but as a screenwriter. Like,
630
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:28.280
I never I don't see myself ever
going, or consciously at least,
631
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:30.159
I don't see myself going, well, this is what I'm going to do,
632
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:34.280
because this is what I'm, you
know, sort of hiding between the
633
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:37.000
lines. That's not how I write, that's not how I create, and
634
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:40.400
so I always give the benefit of
the doubt that that's not how other people
635
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:45.400
right and create as well, because
I don't believe, like I'm not gonna
636
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:47.480
go out there and say everybody's racist. I don't. I don't, you
637
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.440
know, like or racist in the
sense of like being rude or mean or
638
00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.079
whatever. I know they're there.
Are Racists out there and I I've seen
639
00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:00.320
it for myself. I've lived through
some of it, so I know what
640
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:05.239
that's like. But I never thought
that, like I never saw the ORCS
641
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:09.239
as an allegory for racism. I
always just saw the ORCs as ORCs and
642
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:13.639
that was it. And and sort
of that's where I guess, that's where
643
00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:17.440
my suspension of this belief is.
I don't always go into things because again,
644
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:22.199
I will never know what Jackson's intent
was. I'm never going to know
645
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.599
it and I'm not going to know
what the production designers intent was or the
646
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:28.960
costume designers intent was, even if
I watch all the behind the scenes,
647
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:32.719
I'm not going to know what they're
sort of what their experience brought into or
648
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:37.480
their perspective brought into the the work. So isn't that sort of it?
649
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:40.599
Doesn't that sort of like circle back
to that, you know, the triangulation
650
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:45.639
of meaning conversation, like we will
never know what the intent was. So
651
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:52.400
would I want to project that into
the the world and just I don't know,
652
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.159
like there are certain films obviously it's
very clear, you know, birth
653
00:52:54.159 --> 00:53:00.280
of a nation, very clear what
the intent was. But like something like
654
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:02.719
that, I mean I don't.
Personally I don't know because, like I
655
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:07.599
mean, the wheel of time also
has the the adaptation. I don't know
656
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:10.480
if you saw it, but I
mean the monsters look very orkish to and
657
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:15.639
they're also dark skinned, and it's
I almost feel like that's just the way
658
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:20.440
works are. See, like,
I don't I wouldn't see if an ORC
659
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:23.360
had like reds red skin or like
green skin or whatever. It would just
660
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.079
look cartoony to me. It wouldn't
look threatening. I don't know, it's
661
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:32.360
just like I don't know. So
I guess I do need to clarify that.
662
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:38.519
I'm not I'm not saying that Jackson
did that intentionally. It's more or
663
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:47.800
less we are products of our time
in a way, and because of that,
664
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:52.400
the the ideals and the images and
the things that we consume all influenced
665
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:58.079
the decisions that we make. And
because that's true, whenever we come to
666
00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:01.760
designing or think of an other,
as it were, we tend to project
667
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.719
onto that thing things that were less
familiar with. So, as as a
668
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:12.199
white man, my tendency would be
to project onto an other things that are
669
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:16.880
unlike me. So darkness, femininity, those things that that I understand less
670
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:23.719
than I understand myself. And the
problem is that's happened for thousands and thousands
671
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.400
and thousands and thousands of years,
where the white male identity has been in
672
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.880
the majority and been making all the
stories. And so over and over and
673
00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:35.840
over and over and over again,
you see the dark as evil, the
674
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:39.000
dark as bad, and so then
it's developed into the Arab as, you
675
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:43.639
know, run de menaliss crazy.
Yeah, exactly. And so all of
676
00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:49.320
these things develop into stereotypes, develop
into kinds of racism that we've been perpetuating.
677
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:54.960
And and not intentionally always. Sometimes, yes, but not intentionally always.
678
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:02.480
And so I think part of what
storytelling is now is dig deeper.
679
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.960
Yeah, that's the easy thing to
do, but now we are starting to
680
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:10.719
realize that that's also contributing to,
you know, some real problems in our
681
00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:15.599
world. If we only ever consume
stories where the people who have dark skin
682
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:20.480
are bad, what are we going
to think when we actually encounter someone who
683
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.440
has dark skin in the in real
world? You know, if my son,
684
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:28.320
who's an infant, if I only
ever read stories to him where the
685
00:55:28.320 --> 00:55:32.119
bad characters have black skin, he's
going to naturally have those associations with people
686
00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:38.119
with dark skin, and so,
you know, being more conscious of the
687
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:43.440
diversity in our portrayal of good,
in our portrayal of bad. I think
688
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:50.239
that makes us think about our own
world in a more mature way. Okay,
689
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.960
yeah, and I also think that
it leads to better writing, because
690
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.719
if you can't just show like a
person and never go one goes, oh
691
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:01.920
that's the bad person, it makes
you write someone who can be evil or
692
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:07.079
someone who can be good without just
an audience assuming it. And so I
693
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:13.599
think, yeah, I'm not I'm
not claiming that Jackson is racist and meant
694
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:20.800
for him his ORCs to be black
caricatures. I'm saying because of his own
695
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.559
experience it seems like he's writing them
as other and that happens to be black
696
00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:30.519
characters, black coded figures, and
that's the problem. And so hopefully,
697
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:35.599
if you're a new writer coming into
this, you're looking at both of them
698
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:38.519
and saying, okay, here's where
the problems were. We might make our
699
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:45.840
own mistakes, but let's not make
those again. So let's not code ORCs
700
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:51.920
as black if we can avoid it. Let's let's make some some evil baddies,
701
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:53.840
but let's do it in a way
that hasn't been done yet and and
702
00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:59.400
honestly I think that's that's an opportunity. It's a way to go deeper into
703
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:00.960
the world and figure out, okay, if we're not just going to make
704
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:06.280
all the ORCS look the same,
what can we do to to make orcs
705
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:10.519
make our audience understand what an ORC
is or how an ORC behaves, those
706
00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:17.800
kinds of things? And are there
certain aspects of the source material that could
707
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:22.880
allow for this new interpretation? Or, you know, is there something within
708
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:28.800
the impendencies or is there something quote
unquote, canonical that you can sort of
709
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:36.599
take and and use to be able
to build on that? Yes, and
710
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:45.519
yes, they're. Tolkien never really
decided where ORCS came from. That's that's
711
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:52.239
a question that he had several different
origin stories. So it's so you could
712
00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:57.039
say that they are elves that that
bad people took and and kind of corrupted
713
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.320
into ORCS, or they're men that
have been kind of corrupted into ORCS,
714
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:08.079
or so he had several different theories. So I cannot remember if any of
715
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:13.360
those theories are mentioned in the Appendices. I think it would be the corrupted
716
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:17.239
elves theory would be the one that
would be there. That's always what I
717
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:22.119
thought they were, especially the Udu
Kai, like I always I always pictured
718
00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:24.400
them or or I don't know why, but in my mind I always felt
719
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:31.039
like they looked like you corrupted elves, the ears, just the way that
720
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.920
they moved, their their long they, the majority of them, have long
721
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.679
hair, at least the leaders have
long hair. I don't know. I
722
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:43.480
always felt that they were just a
corrupted entity, like an entity that just
723
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:49.559
like so corrupted. Tree Beard says
that trolls are a Mockri of ants,
724
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:53.920
just as ORCs are a Mockri of
elves, and then the Urchai are sorrowm
725
00:58:54.000 --> 00:59:05.320
on taking ORCs and crossbreeding them with
men. And Yeah, Peter Jackson gets
726
00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:10.800
away with not showing the what Tolkien
seems to imply about the KAI, which
727
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:16.400
would be unfilmable if you ask me. Yeah, just by you describing it.
728
00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:19.800
I was just like, oh no, we are crossing into not.
729
00:59:19.960 --> 00:59:22.559
I mean that would have gone gotten
like a rated are immediately. Yeah,
730
00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:28.039
they could, just like I would
much prefer to watch a goop pod.
731
00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:31.880
Yeah, that's much better, right, right, which also fell under a
732
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:37.199
lot of criticism back in the day
as well, apparently. Yeah, go
733
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:45.679
ahead. Sorry. So the there
are different options available to them in terms
734
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:52.000
of how they go about making their
their baddies. Basically. Okay, yeah,
735
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:58.119
and I remember like Azog was like
an albino ORC or like a white
736
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:05.039
work in the Hobbit, the hobbit
trilogy. I mean again, like,
737
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:09.000
as I said to you earlier,
like in the email, or not the
738
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:15.400
email, but the twitter message,
like I am super excited for this opportunity
739
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:19.599
that we get to live in a
world where now we get to revisit Middle
740
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.840
Earth again, and that, to
me, should have been enough for anybody
741
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:27.119
who loves Lord of the Rings like
that. Isn't that enough? Like it's
742
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.880
the same with the Star Wars Universe. I'm a huge star wars fans.
743
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:35.320
Just like we're getting animated shows,
we're getting live action shows. Stop Hating
744
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:37.400
on the thing that you love,
like, what is the matter with you?
745
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:43.920
And I feel like in today's age, more than more than ever,
746
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:49.440
I keep referring to Sam why's or
Samoa's Gamgee's quote in the film, because
747
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.320
I don't know if it's in the
books, where he says, you know,
748
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:53.679
there is good in this world,
Mr Frodo, and it is worth
749
01:00:53.719 --> 01:00:57.840
fighting for, and I feel like
yeah, like that's what I want to
750
01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.599
see, like I want to see
people celebrating the things that we love and
751
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:05.079
not not destroying them, because that's
what it feels like the conversation is turning
752
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:07.360
into. It's just like it's imploding
in and of itself. And for us
753
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:13.079
to get to a point where we
can't even talk about Tolkien's work without somehow
754
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:17.239
someone somewhere getting triggered in defensive and
angry and aggressive and like an argument throws
755
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:21.880
out like that does nobody any good. Nobody wins, like it's just like
756
01:01:21.920 --> 01:01:30.119
nobody wins. It's so that is. That is from Tolkien and and there's
757
01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:37.960
a funny story from Sean Aston about
he didn't particularly like that line because he's
758
01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:40.760
a little it so beautiful, though, like it's so beautiful, but you
759
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:45.920
gotta remember the time at which they're
filming everything, and so they didn't want
760
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:50.639
the fighting to be like pro war, MMM, and so they were really
761
01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:54.760
he was really hesitant about that.
The other thing to think about that I
762
01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:00.639
think is funny is how how much
they thought about the the depiction of smoking
763
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:04.760
throughout the film. They thought it
was like really really, like, okay,
764
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:07.639
is this going to be a problem
for the ratings and things like that.
765
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.000
It was like, I don't think
anyone even thinks about that anymore,
766
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:22.679
but yeah, it's I think in
some ways we have gotten a little bit
767
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:30.239
spoiled. It's like, you know, we went years where we didn't have
768
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:36.400
any adaptation other than the animated adaptations
of Tolkien's work, and then we have
769
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.920
one adaptation and everyone's like okay,
that's it, that's the adaptation. Is
770
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:44.440
like no, let's let's do tons
of adaptations. I got in trouble like
771
01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:51.480
a year ago when I said what
I'd love is for Middle Earth to kind
772
01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.840
of become like a doctor who,
because if if you think back to like
773
01:02:53.920 --> 01:03:00.679
classic doctor who, what you had
was a TV series where you had a
774
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:06.639
protagonist that could go anywhere in time
do anything, and you had all these
775
01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:10.599
amazing science fiction writers who would just
come on and do one two hour story
776
01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:15.679
arc that would air over four weeks, and it's like we don't have that
777
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:22.199
of Middle Earth. That would be
amazing if we had the sandbox where a
778
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.960
lot of like really really good contemporary
artists and writers and stuff could just step
779
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:29.519
in and do like, okay,
here's the story I always wanted to see
780
01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:34.400
in middle earth. Like that would
be incredible, and so I don't I
781
01:03:34.400 --> 01:03:40.480
don't understand not wanting more adaptations.
I totally understand not liking every adaptation.
782
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:46.440
I don't like every adaptation, but
I just move on and find the ones
783
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:52.400
that I do like. So I
am agreement. I'm in agreement with you
784
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:58.760
there of you know, I think
more is better in a lot of ways.
785
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:04.360
You know, I have heard the
argument of like watering down the brand,
786
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:09.079
especially I've heard that from like star
wars people of like there's so much
787
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:12.159
star wars, it doesn't mean as
much anymore, it's like, but you
788
01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:15.639
can just go back and watch the
original movies like yeah, it. And
789
01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:19.239
my argument against that is that it
doesn't mean as much to you, HMM,
790
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:24.000
anymore, but that doesn't mean that
it doesn't mean as much to someone
791
01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:27.840
else who is actually enjoying, you
know, enjoying the movies. I have
792
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:30.320
my issues with the sequel trilogy.
I'm not a huge like I have my
793
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.599
issues with them. I'M NOT gonna
say I'm not a huge fan of them,
794
01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:36.440
because I've seen them a lot.
Like I have my issues, but
795
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:41.719
I still watch these movies and I
would never in a million years want to
796
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:46.119
walk up to someone who absolutely loves
these films or discovered Star Wars because of
797
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.760
these films and go you know what, your opinion doesn't count because x,
798
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:55.920
Y and Zad. How narcissist like? It's not, I don't even know
799
01:04:55.920 --> 01:05:00.320
it's a narcissistic it's just like egotistical. Like how narrow and egotistical do you
800
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:04.320
have to be to want to deny
somebody else's experience within the world or the
801
01:05:04.400 --> 01:05:12.119
universe of Star Wars because you don't
like you think it's watered down, but
802
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.480
that that doesn't mean that it's true. And again, as you as you
803
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:17.239
said, and I'm an agreement with
you there, if you don't like the
804
01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:23.800
new trilogy, it doesn't. Did
you know? It doesn't dismiss the original
805
01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:28.159
trilogy or the prequel trilogy or anything
else that exists. You know, if
806
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:30.480
if Disney doesn't want to use the
legends books, which are like the books
807
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:32.880
that were written back in the day
that are now sort of like, quote
808
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:39.079
unquote, Uncannon, if you enjoy
them, enjoy them, good for you.
809
01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:43.199
Like amazing. You know. So
why can't like? Why can't people
810
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:45.440
get to that point in all fandoms? I don't know, like it's easy,
811
01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:49.519
like it's really easy, like shoot
the choose the path where you're constantly
812
01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:54.599
angry or choose the path where you're
chilling calm. Like why choose anger?
813
01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:58.360
I don't know, like what?
Why choose anchor, like I you know,
814
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:02.400
you know with in the Tolkien fandom. We've seen this with the hobbit
815
01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:09.719
films. So you know, the
hobbit films across the board have have been
816
01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:14.800
derided as not as not as good
as the Lord of the Rings Films,
817
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:19.840
and it for some people has crossed
over into well, if you liked the
818
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:23.360
hobbit films or that's how you got
into Tolkien, then you're not a real
819
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.639
tolkien fan because those aren't really tolkien. And and that's ridiculous to me because
820
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:32.239
it's essentially like, okay, if
you're of a certain age and your parents
821
01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:35.480
loves tolkien and they took you to
see the hobbit films, that happens to
822
01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:40.360
be the first thing that you got
into and you were excited because your parents
823
01:06:40.360 --> 01:06:44.880
likes tolkien. So suddenly you're not
a Tolkien fan because you're that's how you
824
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.159
were first exposed. It's just silly
to me. Yeah, absolutely, and
825
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:51.880
then again, like are there things
to critique in the hobbit films. Absolutely,
826
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:56.239
I there's a lot of stuff I
could critique in the hobbit films,
827
01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:59.199
but there are things in the hobbit
films that absolutely love, like there are
828
01:06:59.199 --> 01:07:03.079
some sequences that I adore. That
and then how our chores music in the
829
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:09.239
hobbit films is is excellent. Like
there are some tracks that I that I
830
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:12.599
love, like as much as I
have issues with the toy the Toril and
831
01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:16.880
and Feeley Romance, the theme that
Short created for that romance is a track
832
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:20.719
that I play over and over and
over again because it's so beautiful, it's
833
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:26.559
so melodic and so you know,
it's so orchestrally beautiful, composed beautifully.
834
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:31.039
There are good things that you can
find, you know. And Yeah,
835
01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:38.079
it's just it's sad that we've gotten
to this place. But I I will
836
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:42.840
not, I will not lose hope, you know. Yeah, I won't.
837
01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:46.039
I won't lose hope because that's just
I tried at one point be like
838
01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:48.960
okay, I'm done, I'm not
gonna just I'm just going to be cynic.
839
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:53.360
Didn't last long. It just didn't. It's not it's not part of
840
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:55.960
WHO I am. As worst.
It's just like I couldn't do it.
841
01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:59.800
I wanted to enjoy things again and
I wanted to because, yeah, because
842
01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:01.400
I got to a point where I
was one of those very angry fans on
843
01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:05.239
many things, not just it was
more like the film industry in general.
844
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:09.400
I was just an angry, angry
person about Hollywood. I was just like,
845
01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:12.679
I don't agree with what Hollywood's doing. I was so angry and I
846
01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:15.079
just realized that I ended up hating
the thing that made me who I like,
847
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.520
that is so integral to who I
am as a person like and so
848
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:26.119
I shift it back and that's why
I'm here and having these conversations. Yeah,
849
01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:32.479
I know of a tolkien scholar who
loves tolkien and then she got into
850
01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:39.439
feminist theory and women studies and that
kind of thing and for years she was
851
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:44.319
afraid to go back to Tolkien because
she knew, you know, this is
852
01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:47.600
an older story. You know,
is it gonna is it just going to
853
01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:50.079
be ruined if I go back and
read it? And she finally went back
854
01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:55.720
and read it and she was still
able to love it, and so now
855
01:08:55.760 --> 01:08:59.960
that's one of her favorite stories to
work on, even from the the Queer
856
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.600
in feminist perspective, because it's something
that she loved long ago before she even
857
01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:09.680
found all the different theories that she
now uses. So it's it's that saying
858
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:16.800
kind of you can't hate something that
you love, because then you end up
859
01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:20.920
just kind of hating that part of
yourself. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely,
860
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:27.279
and especially because when you're reading a
book or and I posted this today on
861
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:31.239
twitter, it's like stories are reflections
of us, like there are a mirror
862
01:09:31.279 --> 01:09:35.319
that reflect us, our soul,
our values are perspectives who we are,
863
01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:38.920
what makes us we are. Are
Good side, are bad side, like
864
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.560
all of it. Like their reflections
of us. So if we hate these
865
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:47.439
things, then says a lot,
I think. If you're going in there
866
01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:51.000
and hating all this stuff because x
wires ad, it's like, well,
867
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:54.479
those are aspects of your self that
you probably hate. I don't know.
868
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:58.479
I mean I that's that might be
a little too deep into the like a
869
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:02.720
psychoanalyzing the entire situation. But yeah, I mean I totally agree with you.
870
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:09.880
I totally agree with you on that. Well, I have totally enjoyed
871
01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:13.800
this conversation. It's been like I
feel yeah, I feel like I we
872
01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:15.439
could keep going, but I feel
like this is a good place to stop.
873
01:10:15.479 --> 01:10:19.319
I feel we discuss the things that
I wanted to discuss. You definitely
874
01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:26.119
shared a lot of stuff that I
I benefited from as well, and I
875
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:30.840
hope that whoever's listening will benefit from
those as much as I have. So
876
01:10:30.920 --> 01:10:34.119
I do want to thank you for
taking the time and coming on today.
877
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:40.399
If people want to follow you and
follow your work, how would they go
878
01:10:40.439 --> 01:10:43.680
about doing that? Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me.
879
01:10:43.720 --> 01:10:46.560
I had a lot of fun with
the conversation. So the easiest way
880
01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:51.279
to find me is my website,
which is just luke sheltoncom. There you
881
01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:57.319
can find links to the project that
we talked about earlier or to the podcast.
882
01:10:57.600 --> 01:11:00.159
I'm also on social media. If
you look at twitter, I'm at
883
01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:05.439
Luke B Shelton, and you can
also follow the tolkn experience on twitter,
884
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:11.960
which is at Tolkn XP, and
on facebook it's just tolken experience. Thank
885
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:15.640
you so much for that. So
excuse me. For those of your are
886
01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:18.560
listening who aren't following me on social
media. You could do so add stories
887
01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:26.439
by Alan on twitter, on instagram
and on facebook. You could also help
888
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:29.720
support me in the show by visiting
my buy me a coffee, so it's
889
01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:33.840
buy me a coffeecom stories by Alan. You can join a monthly membership for
890
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:40.760
a for a small token of five
dollars a month, which allows you access
891
01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:45.680
to the early release of these episodes, as well as early release of my
892
01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:51.159
reviews and exclusive blog posts or articles. But if you also donate you'll also
893
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:55.439
get access to the articles and the
blogs alone. You won't get access to
894
01:11:55.479 --> 01:12:01.399
the early releases, but I will
definitely appreciate your your your donation and your
895
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:03.680
support. So thank you so much. You could also visit my website,
896
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:09.479
Alan Mahanacom. Thank you so much
for joining us on today's episode. Next
897
01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:14.359
week, this five episode arc continues
as we delve deeper into the world of
898
01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:18.760
representation, diversity and inclusion when it
comes to storytelling in any medium. Really
899
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:50.840
thank you so much for joining us
and have a wonderful rest of your day.
900
-->
