BONUS EPISODE!! Chris Thomas Devlin Interview - Writer of Cobweb

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Hello horror fans, and welcome back to the Script
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to Scream podcast. And today we are absolutely
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thrilled to welcome Chris Devlin to the show.
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Chris is the writer of The Wretched Emily Derringer,
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2022's Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and the film
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we most recently covered on Script to Scream,
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Cobweb. And I think it's no exaggeration to say,
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Chris, both Lee and I were left utterly inspired
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by the cobweb script. So we can't thank you enough
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for agreeing to chat to us. We're just completely
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overjoyed, utterly sort of overwhelmed to have
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you on the show. Well, that's very flattering
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to hear. And I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was
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meant to be enjoyed. I got my start as an assistant.
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Um, as an assistant, you're just constantly reading
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so many screenplays and writing coverage for
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them. So your bosses can be the ones to pretend
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that they read them. And so, um, I obviously
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always appreciated a script that, uh, was just
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a good, a good read that had some literary merit.
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So that was the goal. Um, and so I, I love hearing
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that. Well, it's amazing to have you here. I
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mean, it certainly certainly was a great read.
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Both of us kind of really enjoyed it. Before
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we dive into kind of screenwriting and, you know,
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obviously the cobweb script, we were wondering
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if you could tell us a little bit about what
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kind of inspired you to set out on your path
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as a writer. Where did it all start for you?
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I mean, kind of a hard question to answer just
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because I feel like it's I've always wanted to
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work in movies or storytelling in some capacity
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for. literally as long as I remember. I can't
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think of a time before it. And obviously that
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took different turns over the years as I understood
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how the world worked. When I was a kid, I wanted
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to write children's books. And then I wanted
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to be an actor because I kind of just thought
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that actors were making it all up as they went
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along. And they were the ones who were kind of
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generating the story. But I wasn't a very good
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actor and a lot of auditions to be in school
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plays and whatnot made that clear. But fortunately,
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I realized that that's not actually how movies
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work. And I was very blessed to have a mom who
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really encouraged that pursuit. in a very practical
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sense. I have a lot of, I was actually just,
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I mentioned this right before we started. I was
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just visiting my mom in Pennsylvania and I was
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looking at my bookshelf and there's a lot of
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like books there that are like, here are the
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other careers that you can have in entertainment.
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You know, there's a best boy, there's a gaffer,
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because I was really dead set on being a director.
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And again, that was a thing where I wanted to
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be a filmmaker and I went to film school at Temple
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University. Although I still would like to direct
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someday. There, I was really confronted with
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the fact that I don't have any movies or projects
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that I'm leaving here with that I'm particularly
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proud of, but I have a lot of scripts that I
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think I can really hang my hat on. And so it
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was there. I was just like, I'm going to focus
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on this. I mean, I find the writing process so...
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creatively satisfying and rewarding um up to
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a certain point uh it can be a trial sometimes
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yeah exactly actually the more you get it becomes
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a a job it gets a lot less of that but um still
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it's the best job that i've ever had and i've
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had some terrible ones um so yeah i in in film
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school i really just focused um on writing and
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then after graduating i moved to los angeles
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and pre -immediately started working as an assistant
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at a very small production company called Sobini
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Films that was started by Mark Amin, who created
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Trimark in the 80s, the house that Leprechaun
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built, and among many others. And there, as I
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said, I was doing coverage. I was just reading
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so many scripts. I think there I was very lucky
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that I could, you know, you're there when you
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work in Hollywood, especially on the lower rung,
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you're putting in like at least 10 hour days
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at an office. And we weren't the busiest company
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in the world. So fortunately, I did have a lot
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of spare time where I could be writing my own
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scripts. I think perhaps I've lost track of the
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question at this point. Yeah, so it was there
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I really just started cultivating a voice, I
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hope and I think. And yeah, then it was there
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that I wrote The Wretched Emily Derringer, which
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is the script that got me on the blacklist for
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the first time and got me my agent, my manager.
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In a lot of ways, that was the beginning of my
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career. Fantastic. And what was your sort of
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first experiences with horror more generally?
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Were there any sort of horror films or media
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that inspired you when you were younger? yeah
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um all the same ones i'm a millennial um hocus
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pocus was a movie the first movie to ever traumatize
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me um and that i made my mom turn off um after
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they had been burned in the the the kiln um but
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then are like subsequently resurrected when they
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like opened the book i don't know well you guys
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know the movie um i was like i am out i think
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they can come back i thought we were saved and
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um so i was terrified of witches then uh are
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you afraid of the dark and there was just a lot
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of like horror media um aimed at children back
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then i'm i think significantly less so yes exactly
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um but i think the trick was for me um i these
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things really did scare me and it was just always
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when i was going to bed i mean that's what it
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was partly where cobweb came from um And I would
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just be lying in bed in the dark and just hearing
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noises in my imagination going crazy. And I think
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the tool that I developed for psychological survival
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then was thinking, well, someone's coming up
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with these stories that are scaring me. So if
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I'm terrified of something, why don't I just
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write a story out of it? And then that sort of
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exercise, I don't know if I was intellectualizing
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it as much as I am now at the time, but I was
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just like. That exercised the demon in a way,
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and it makes this fear productive of mine. And
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as soon as that switch happened, I feel like
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I was no longer scared. But my imagination would
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still steer dark. But it was like, well, that's
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good fodder. I'm going to write this down. And
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so I was really bad at sports as a kid. And so
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at a certain point, recess becomes like all the
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kids. go and play like kickball or whatever and
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i was the kid um who would just have my notebook
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um and just hidden away like under some playground
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equipment just writing my my little story so
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um yeah i think that was that i was a really
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scared kid and i turned it into uh something
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productive i hope yes exactly that's awesome
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i mean before we dive into the script specifically
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i mean and you've kind of touched on it already
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but was there any point where like the was there
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a moment or image that first sort of sparked
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the idea for cobweb or was it a combination of
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things yeah i mean it was and i this is maybe
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a little embarrassing to admit like i've subsequently
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learned it's a little bit more cliche than i
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realized but like i really when i was a kid just
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the idea of someone living in my wall or like
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looking at me through the vent or like whatever
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just those are the noises you would hear you
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get like a bang through the house resettling
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and i would just imagine someone who shouldn't
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be there was just there and so it was just a
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really primordial that um we can talk about it
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more as the conversation progresses but like
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the part of the um impetus for cobble was just
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to write something as like primordial simple
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the most like basic day one fears that um people
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typically have and so yeah it was the idea of
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um it's in the script it's not in the movie but
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it's actually it was the um the cat getting pulled
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through the uh the hole and the um that would
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like and in my the initial village i mean uh
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image was um actually like kind of like a almost
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a mickey mouse hand like a gloved uh hand like
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coming out and grabbing it um but for whatever
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reason that was just um an interesting image
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to me and then i uh expanded it a little bit
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more in my imagination um a child like talking
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i think the very earliest earliest earliest version
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of the um movie was i just had in my notes that
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like um the gentleman in the walls and it was
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about a boy who i think went to live with his
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grandmother and there was a guy speaking to him
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like from in the walls and um commanding him
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to like do things bring him meat and things like
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that um so yeah that was the i'll just keep it
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simple that was the the answer to your question
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that those two images that's awesome That's amazing.
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So when we I mean, when we read the cobweb script,
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you know, Lee and I both thought it has this
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really kind of fairy tale quality to it. And
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there are there are sort of elements of fairy
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tales in there, you know, the sort of the pumpkin
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patch and, you know, the scary house on the hill
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and child protagonist, you know, were you kind
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of intentionally drawing from sort of fairy tale
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or fable kind of tropes? And what were the most
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kind of strongest influences upon upon the work?
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Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I don't know how, if
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I can point to one specifically so much as the
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general milieu of just like a Grimm's fairy tale,
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dangerous parents, some unexplained supernatural
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force or whatever. And again, just going back
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to the simplicity, like I wanted, I definitely
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wanted to make a rated R movie or write a hard,
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hard edge script, but still through a very childlike
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perspective. And yeah, just stripping it down
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to its bare elements. There's a lot of references.
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J .D. Lifshitz at Boulder Light, I think, is
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the only person who ever got the references in
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the script to all the... Oh my God, I'm completely...
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I'm just blanking on one of my favorite names
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right now. I do this all the time. Yeah, wait.
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uh, Val Luton, sorry. And he's a producer, but
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like, uh, the, the Val Luton movies. Yeah. So
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like cat people and leopard man. And I walked
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with a zombie. Um, just those like 65 minute,
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like black and white, like, um, you'd ever see,
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well, I'm, I guess specifically with cat people,
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like you, it's all about what you don't see.
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Um, in the shadows. Yes, exactly. Um, those were.
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That was the soup of what I was trying to touch
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upon when I started this thing. And the writing
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of it, I can't tell you how I decided upon the
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specific style of the script, the no punctuation
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or whatever. I think it was partly kind of a
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challenge for myself. I wanted to write very...
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I want to be as concise with the language as
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I possibly could. And I figured a way to challenge
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myself to do that. If every line has to be its
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own thought and I can't have a period and then
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start another sentence, well, that's one way
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to get me to think very specifically about the
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language. Whenever I start a new script, the
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tone is, I think, the thing that I have to figure
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out from the outset. And that takes a couple
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tries. I'll rewrite the first few pages over
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and over until I find the style. Because that's
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how I see everything. um going forward that's
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really interesting because we we um obviously
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when we were reading the script you know uh immediately
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after the title page you've got this kind of
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short piece of prose and that really kind of
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sets the uh the scene for the story and obviously
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the tone for the script uh what was your thinking
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you know starting the script out like that was
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that was there any sort of thinking behind that
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particularly or um No, I mean, other than just,
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it's all the same thing. It's just, I really
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wanted to create a vibe, a tone. I wanted to,
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you know, the audience that I'm writing to, and
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they said this part of my career when I wrote
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this was the army of unpaid interns or underpaid
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assistants who are the ones who are actually
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going to be filtering through this. And how do
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you get their attention? Well. set a little uh
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a spooky mood and um yeah it's great i mean it
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started like in media res with just the uh the
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the tap tap tap on the walls and i think i probably
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was just like well i'll give them a little place
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setting um before before i get there so i don't
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think it started that way i think it probably
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went back and added that later right awesome
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awesome i mean we commented during our episode
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that we you know we felt the style of writing
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may not have worked if uh if the protagonist
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if peter had been like older if he'd been like
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in his like mid -teens or early teens and was
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that something you considered like did did the
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age of the protagonist kind of influence how
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you chose to wrote the script in that kind of
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storybook fairy tale style oh certainly yeah
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i mean beyond just the i will admit i after i
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wrote cobweb um i tried the same style again
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with a with another script um and then like recently
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i went back it was one that i just put in the
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shelf and i went back and like it's like okay
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well this does not work at all it doesn't need
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to be this long like this is it's completely
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inappropriate for for this screenplay but um
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yeah again very much it was like i wanted to
00:14:09.899 --> 00:14:14.200
again tone is very important to me and um i really
00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.620
wanted this movie to feel like it was from the
00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:20.340
perspective of a eight -year -old boy um and
00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:25.330
the language uh was very much part of that like
00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:27.669
i think um maybe subconsciously i'm not even
00:14:27.669 --> 00:14:30.769
like i keep i just came from my parents house
00:14:30.769 --> 00:14:33.870
which is uh what a lot of the script is uh uh
00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:36.210
that was in my mind's eye what was happening
00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:38.990
and i um a lot of just those like scary like
00:14:38.990 --> 00:14:41.129
scary tale scary stories to tell in the dark
00:14:41.129 --> 00:14:46.549
kind of books um uh all those had a very simple
00:14:46.549 --> 00:14:48.750
language in them as well so i think it was like
00:14:48.750 --> 00:14:52.509
really trying to go for that um you know scholastic
00:14:52.509 --> 00:14:55.590
book club kind of uh a scary story you'd pick
00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:58.669
up but again i wanted it to you know go hard
00:14:58.669 --> 00:15:02.289
but i wanted to lull you into a feeling of like
00:15:02.289 --> 00:15:08.190
reading like just some like 40 page uh little
00:15:08.190 --> 00:15:11.850
paperback that um you got from the library yeah
00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:14.230
that's amazing i mean you kind of touched on
00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:18.090
this already but Visually, the script for Cobweb
00:15:18.090 --> 00:15:21.490
is so appealing. You've used a lot of really
00:15:21.490 --> 00:15:25.169
clever devices, the formatting and changes in
00:15:25.169 --> 00:15:28.730
font. And you mentioned the lack of full stops
00:15:28.730 --> 00:15:33.190
and fairly clipped descriptive passages. We were
00:15:33.190 --> 00:15:36.350
wondering whether this is a conscious decision
00:15:36.350 --> 00:15:39.490
just for this project. But you said maybe you
00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:41.950
tried it on a different project. So it's not
00:15:41.950 --> 00:15:46.250
possibly your natural writing voice? Yeah, I
00:15:46.250 --> 00:15:47.970
have a different, I feel like every script, I
00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:50.409
mean, I like to think that I have a consistent
00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:53.809
voice throughout, but this is definitely the
00:15:53.809 --> 00:15:56.769
most formally experimental. And it was before,
00:15:56.830 --> 00:15:59.590
I tried it with this other script before Kappa
00:15:59.590 --> 00:16:02.750
had even got out into the world. Like, I really
00:16:02.750 --> 00:16:06.049
thought this was a writing sample for a long
00:16:06.049 --> 00:16:10.009
time. I had very, almost no expectations of anyone
00:16:10.009 --> 00:16:17.240
buying it or really anything happening. So, but
00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.240
I do try to mess with, or, you know, play with
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.059
format as much as I can, just in terms of like,
00:16:22.220 --> 00:16:24.559
I don't want to, I don't want to be gimmicky.
00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:33.100
But I do think that, you know, surgically playing
00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:35.139
with the format can be very effective and just
00:16:35.139 --> 00:16:40.399
painting the picture for the reader. Yeah. But
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.539
yeah, I have, you know, I've read, I hope this
00:16:44.539 --> 00:16:47.519
doesn't. come off bad but like i've read scripts
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:51.379
that people i know who have specifically told
00:16:51.379 --> 00:16:53.519
me that they were like very inspired by cobweb
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.679
have like sent me afterwards and there were it
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.460
was a lot of just playing with the format in
00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:01.720
ways to like uh but in ways that i did not think
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:05.220
were necessary um and so which is just a good
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:08.220
lesson for me as well like like okay you can
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.940
go too far with it don't try to uh um be too
00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:14.099
clever um just keep in mind that you are trying
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:18.559
to tell a story as clearly as possible. And you
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.500
can kind of disappear up your own ass if you're
00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:25.579
also trying to impress people with how cool you
00:17:25.579 --> 00:17:27.940
can be with formatting. I think we definitely
00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:30.059
mentioned during the episode that we've just
00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.779
done is that, you know, all of this is, everything
00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:35.299
that you've done is kind of in service of that
00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:39.019
kind of fairytale kind of tone. None of it feels
00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:41.440
like a gimmick. You know, it all sort of feels
00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.200
really... correct for the script and for the
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:50.339
film. Thank you. One thing we did notice, the
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:54.200
climax of the script differs very much from what
00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:56.660
we're presented with in the film. Can you talk
00:17:56.660 --> 00:17:59.119
us through that divergence, how it came about
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.740
and what your thoughts are and which ending you
00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:06.910
prefer? say confidently i prefer my original
00:18:06.910 --> 00:18:12.170
ending um and it is it is it is i still to this
00:18:12.170 --> 00:18:15.029
day get a lot of like messages from people who
00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:18.730
tell me like you know they're they're very nice
00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:21.750
about the script and i loved i love the ending
00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:26.009
um and it was belt i mean you know i like a uh
00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.490
i like some symmetry in my structure you know
00:18:28.490 --> 00:18:30.609
it opens with peter on one side of the wall and
00:18:30.609 --> 00:18:34.279
then it ends with him on the other and um I am
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.819
also, frankly, a lot more sympathetic to Sarah
00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:42.279
than the film, I think, ultimately is. And I
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:44.460
like her getting her little happy ending as well.
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.420
But the thing is, film is a collaborative medium.
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.980
And I love the movie as well. There's so many
00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:54.619
great things in the movie that aren't in the
00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:59.160
script. But that was the case. You know, it's
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.880
a dark ending. um and it was my first studio
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.599
sale and i loved everyone i worked with on it
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.799
um some of whom i'm still like extremely close
00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.839
with and uh working with again um but you know
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.900
studio people and like production people when
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:20.980
they get a dark ending especially one um featuring
00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:23.680
children they'll typically are like well we can't
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.720
really do this and i was just so happy to be
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.109
involved and just like um have a movie seemingly
00:19:30.109 --> 00:19:32.329
getting made i was very naive at the time i was
00:19:32.329 --> 00:19:33.769
like well this is getting made and little did
00:19:33.769 --> 00:19:36.769
i know how many how close it was to complete
00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:42.329
um disaster uh so many times um but still i just
00:19:42.329 --> 00:19:45.230
was there said we need to change the ending and
00:19:45.230 --> 00:19:48.670
i was like fine um and the ending changed quite
00:19:48.670 --> 00:19:51.170
a lot throughout the development process and
00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:52.829
through the production process because of course
00:19:52.829 --> 00:19:54.710
when you're actually like making the movie you
00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:59.099
know things happen um but ultimately yes i um
00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:05.900
love the film but i wish it had my ending but
00:20:05.900 --> 00:20:08.039
what are you going to do on that one yeah yeah
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:13.500
you do yeah oh well i'm curious at what kind
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:16.980
of point in the in the process like did your
00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:18.940
kind of involvement with the script end? I mean,
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.339
was it a case of like you sold the script and
00:20:21.339 --> 00:20:23.480
then the studio just kind of went with it or
00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.559
did they kind of involve you all the way through?
00:20:25.779 --> 00:20:28.819
I was involved. I was on set. Like I was pretty
00:20:28.819 --> 00:20:32.180
thoroughly involved for, I was, I'm very happy
00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:35.319
for the most part with how things went. I, I
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:40.319
think whatever, uh, post -production, I think
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.099
it was where I was least involved and that's,
00:20:43.099 --> 00:20:46.109
um, I had some frustrations then, but ultimately
00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:48.710
like we, you know, we parted ways for a little
00:20:48.710 --> 00:20:50.490
bit during that whole, but then like at the end
00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:53.269
came back and then I had notes on what I had
00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:56.549
been seeing from the final cut that some of which
00:20:56.549 --> 00:20:59.990
they accepted and some of which they didn't.
00:21:00.289 --> 00:21:04.049
But no, ultimately I, I, everyone was really
00:21:04.049 --> 00:21:09.329
cool to keep me as involved as I was. And I do,
00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:13.009
I have. I like to think it's just because I'm
00:21:13.009 --> 00:21:14.730
a good person to work with. But I also think
00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:16.809
I wrote it in a very distinct style. And that
00:21:16.809 --> 00:21:18.869
was definitely a selling point for a lot of people
00:21:18.869 --> 00:21:20.670
along the way. And I think it was just so much
00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:22.690
easier to be like, well, this is the guy who
00:21:22.690 --> 00:21:27.349
did it. But also, I do think that because I came
00:21:27.349 --> 00:21:32.150
from the development world, I think I just understood
00:21:32.150 --> 00:21:35.859
how that process worked. maybe more so than a
00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:38.180
lot of like writers who didn't come from that.
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.140
And so I kind of I think I knew how to play the
00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:44.519
game is the also just probably the more correct
00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.059
answer. And so I didn't put up too much of a
00:21:48.059 --> 00:21:50.759
fuss about anything that I necessarily disagreed
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.200
with. And I think I like to think that they obviously
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:57.339
had great ideas, too. So I hope that I implemented
00:21:57.339 --> 00:22:02.539
them well, but I think also. yeah i don't know
00:22:02.539 --> 00:22:04.180
i also came cheap so probably would have been
00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:07.680
um uh more expensive to fire me and hire someone
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.859
else well it's such a collaborative medium isn't
00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:12.900
it you know and it's uh everyone everyone sort
00:22:12.900 --> 00:22:15.200
of uh pitches in and makes the makes the thing
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.160
that you end up with you know so i think that's
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.250
yeah that's really cool um yeah me and leith
00:22:20.250 --> 00:22:22.390
both we're really sort of fascinated as well
00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:25.190
by kind of process and how writers kind of go
00:22:25.190 --> 00:22:28.869
about writing screenplays um could you tell us
00:22:28.869 --> 00:22:30.569
a bit about your process when you're kind of
00:22:30.569 --> 00:22:33.029
planning and writing an original script do you
00:22:33.029 --> 00:22:35.069
have a set process or is it more kind of bespoke
00:22:35.069 --> 00:22:38.109
for each project or it's definitely bespoke i
00:22:38.109 --> 00:22:42.019
mean i think i um I would like to, as I go forward,
00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:43.720
start implementing a little bit more structure
00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.099
to it because I'm writing an assignment right
00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:49.259
now. And that was one where I had to have a very
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.619
thorough outline. And frankly, I'm just following
00:22:51.619 --> 00:22:53.259
it completely. And I'm like, well, this is going
00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:56.220
a lot faster than it normally goes. It's more
00:22:56.220 --> 00:23:01.339
efficient. Yes, exactly. I'm very intuitive,
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:05.640
I think. But most of my projects, I'll just speak
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:09.240
to, obviously, the original ones. I have a lot
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.339
of different ideas that I'm constantly, I have
00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:14.720
a lot of files in my notes app that I'm constantly
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.079
adding, you know, more to. And eventually one
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:21.539
starts, you know, through gravitational pull,
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:23.420
collecting more and more ideas. And that becomes
00:23:23.420 --> 00:23:25.559
the more exciting one. And as soon as I kind
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.500
of feel like I have a tone, I have a good opening
00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:32.839
scene. I feel like I have enough that I could
00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:35.319
get like 15 pages out if I just like sat down
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.400
and devoted like a couple of days to this. Those
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.579
are the ones that I start. And if those first
00:23:42.579 --> 00:23:45.059
15 pages go well, then that's the one that I'm
00:23:45.059 --> 00:23:47.720
off to the races on. I'm writing a horror spec
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:49.779
right now. That was exactly that process. It
00:23:49.779 --> 00:23:52.599
was like a germ of an idea that I had a few years
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.180
ago. And then over the years, I just kept like,
00:23:57.339 --> 00:23:59.279
oh, that would work really well for this thing
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.700
over here. This is a theme or an image that would
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.380
go really well in this file over here. And then
00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:06.799
I was like, I think I basically have a movie
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:11.000
here. um and then I have and then then it goes
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.720
over to it goes from notes to Docs um and that's
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.700
when I start doing a little bit more of a formalized
00:24:16.700 --> 00:24:18.660
outline and I have like a style that I write
00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:21.740
it and that's very specific um just to alleviate
00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:23.859
you know make it as you know hit the ground running
00:24:23.859 --> 00:24:27.000
as much as um as easy as a mixing metaphors here
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.180
anyway um just to get started uh and that's more
00:24:31.180 --> 00:24:35.539
formalized um and it'll basically resemble like
00:24:35.539 --> 00:24:39.359
a beat sheet or an outline um some parts will
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.859
be more specific than others but uh i will refer
00:24:42.859 --> 00:24:47.660
to that um and then uh yeah i try to write in
00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:50.680
order i know a lot of people um will like write
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:52.579
different scenes just that um and then put them
00:24:52.579 --> 00:24:55.599
all together but i very much have to do the ironing
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.339
process uh paul thomas anderson described writing
00:24:58.339 --> 00:25:00.500
as ironing and that really stuck with me which
00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:04.170
is just like i'm constantly I start the day reading
00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:06.329
what I already had and then I'm fixing things
00:25:06.329 --> 00:25:08.829
along the way. And then I get to the new scene
00:25:08.829 --> 00:25:11.549
and I try to write as much as that is possible.
00:25:12.849 --> 00:25:16.650
But I, yeah, I need to start from the beginning
00:25:16.650 --> 00:25:22.789
and go from there. I can keep rambling, but have
00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:26.809
my answers good. All right. But yeah, there's
00:25:26.809 --> 00:25:29.049
not really a set process. Everyone's a little
00:25:29.049 --> 00:25:32.559
bit different. We always like to ask writers
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.700
about like structure, like how screenplays are
00:25:34.700 --> 00:25:37.279
structured and how narrative structure kind of
00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:39.839
plays a part in the writing process. And is it
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:41.819
something you kind of pay particular attention
00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:44.839
to? Is it like second nature or do you just kind
00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:47.500
of, as you said, just start at the beginning
00:25:47.500 --> 00:25:51.480
and just go? I think it's somewhat second nature.
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:55.140
I've never really read a screenwriting book telling
00:25:55.140 --> 00:25:59.000
myself like, oh, I don't want to, you know. ingest
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.359
all the wrong ideas, which is dumb because I
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:05.079
don't think that really happens. But no, it's
00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:14.200
too late now. But I, as a viewer, I've already
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.740
mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson. I can, I love
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:22.640
mess. I love impressionism. As a writer, I think
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:28.559
I'm very formalist. I, there was an essay. By
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:31.279
Edgar Allan Poe, I read in high school about
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:35.319
him talking about the Raven and his philosophies
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:38.500
for writing short stories and poems where just
00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:41.039
absolutely everything has to be in service of
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.880
the idea. And so for me, when I'm writing, I
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.740
think back to that. So I want my, as I mentioned
00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:52.920
with Cobweb, I like the symmetry of opening one
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:55.720
way and ending another way. I'm very cognizant
00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:02.789
of. my opening images and will hopefully reflect
00:27:02.789 --> 00:27:06.529
in some way my final images. I really need an
00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:10.769
ending, at least something. It doesn't need to
00:27:10.769 --> 00:27:13.730
be exactly worked out, but I just need, you know,
00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:16.569
that helps crystallize what your movie's actually
00:27:16.569 --> 00:27:20.269
about. And if I'm writing dialogue and I don't
00:27:20.269 --> 00:27:21.589
really know what they're saying, I can return
00:27:21.589 --> 00:27:23.779
to, what's the central idea of this movie? um
00:27:23.779 --> 00:27:25.980
and that will that will always help me it's like
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:30.900
a a guiding light so it's yeah so it's it's somewhat
00:27:30.900 --> 00:27:34.740
intuitive in that i um i think i basically know
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:38.619
what a first act second act you know 2a 2b final
00:27:38.619 --> 00:27:45.019
act is um but i do have a lot of like tricks
00:27:45.019 --> 00:27:46.619
of the trade that i've picked up over the years
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:51.259
that i i definitely return to um yeah great yeah
00:27:52.220 --> 00:27:56.660
I love a good setup and payoff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:01.759
We spoke to Brett Pierce recently about the writing
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.960
of The Wretched and had a good conversation with
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.000
him about his kind of process when it comes to
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:12.230
theme. We were wondering when you kind of start
00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:15.450
to sort of tell us how you work with theme. And
00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:17.250
is it something that you kind of start out with
00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:19.349
and use as a guiding principle when you're writing?
00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:21.730
Or is it something that you find more organically
00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:24.329
as you go through the process? It's something
00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:27.009
that I think that's a that's a good question.
00:28:27.109 --> 00:28:32.109
Thank you. I think as of late, I've been more
00:28:32.109 --> 00:28:37.470
aware of trying to have a central theme. as i'm
00:28:37.470 --> 00:28:40.650
starting cobweb i didn't cobweb is one that like
00:28:40.650 --> 00:28:43.369
talking to people about it like through the development
00:28:43.369 --> 00:28:46.029
process and like subsequently i've been like
00:28:46.029 --> 00:28:48.069
oh wow that's one of the most personal movies
00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:50.230
i've ever written um and i was really kind of
00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:54.609
unaware of it at the time um i come from a a
00:28:54.609 --> 00:29:00.089
a home uh an irish family where not a lot was
00:29:00.089 --> 00:29:02.980
being spoken about in terms of like our issues
00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:05.180
and everything was kind of like kept under the
00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:09.059
surface and we didn't really um discuss a lot
00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:12.859
of things um and i think that's what that movie
00:29:12.859 --> 00:29:16.000
is largely about and uh the ways that these kind
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.460
of buried secrets can come out and i wonder if
00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:21.779
i had known going in um how that would have changed
00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:25.000
the writing of that but nowadays i do like i
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:28.200
said i i return to theme so much in my writing
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:31.359
that i really do feel like i need to have It
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:33.000
doesn't have to be the most concrete, like I
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.940
don't need a thesis statement and they don't
00:29:34.940 --> 00:29:37.200
have to be a didactic exercise, but just having
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:42.019
something that's personal to me that I feel like
00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:45.420
I would love to work through in the writing process.
00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:52.579
Yeah, so right now I am very much aware, cognizant
00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:55.579
of the thematic idea before I begin, but I definitely
00:29:55.579 --> 00:29:58.859
wasn't when I started. Interesting. That's interesting.
00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:03.130
I mean, One thing, the generic question that
00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:05.470
I'm sure you get asked all the time. Do you have
00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:07.690
any sort of advice you could offer our screenwriting
00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:10.609
audience when it comes to breaking into the industry?
00:30:10.789 --> 00:30:13.609
And if you have any advice for writing horror
00:30:13.609 --> 00:30:17.190
more specifically, anything like that? Yeah,
00:30:17.390 --> 00:30:20.930
I mean, my general advice is, I mean, the industry
00:30:20.930 --> 00:30:23.690
is who knows what's going on now. So like, is
00:30:23.690 --> 00:30:27.069
anyone even going to have it? I guess my first
00:30:27.069 --> 00:30:30.660
bit of advice is. Don't focus on, never use AI.
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:41.039
Second would be breaking in is so intimidating
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.500
and is such a impossible like Herculean task
00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:47.859
that somehow people manage to do all the time.
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:50.859
And I guess it's all just luck. And obviously
00:30:50.859 --> 00:30:53.099
you can't control luck, but you can control how
00:30:53.099 --> 00:31:00.089
many opportunities for luck to happen. I should
00:31:00.089 --> 00:31:01.509
have known where I was going with that sentence
00:31:01.509 --> 00:31:03.710
before I started speaking. This is the lesson
00:31:03.710 --> 00:31:12.849
right here. For me, I went to film school at
00:31:12.849 --> 00:31:16.569
Temple University in Philadelphia, not really
00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:18.529
connected to the industry at all. I didn't know
00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:22.690
anybody. My roommate, who I moved out there with,
00:31:22.970 --> 00:31:25.779
she was... the one who got me the job, the interview
00:31:25.779 --> 00:31:28.140
to work at her company. So in that case, it was
00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:30.619
like a who you know situation. But yeah, so I
00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:33.539
guess who you know is hugely important. Not everyone
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:35.799
is going to, you know, my uncle isn't a Warner
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:40.819
brother, but you can meet people who are all
00:31:40.819 --> 00:31:44.819
kind of starting out in the same level that you
00:31:44.819 --> 00:31:47.920
are at currently and be very invested in your
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.440
friend's success. And they will hopefully be
00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:55.619
invested in yours. You start creating opportunities
00:31:55.619 --> 00:32:00.619
for luck to happen. You can enter the contests.
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:02.579
I think a lot of them are parasitic, but I do
00:32:02.579 --> 00:32:05.940
also think a lot of them still do carry some
00:32:05.940 --> 00:32:08.420
weight. But for me, it's not even necessarily
00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:11.480
about winning or the recognition you get from
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:13.660
these. It's all about, again, more opportunities.
00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:18.140
I met my managers, John Zozerny and Jeff Portnoy
00:32:18.140 --> 00:32:21.430
at Bellevue. Not because I was a finalist in
00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:23.269
the Austin screenwriting competition with Richard
00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:25.750
Damley Derringer, but because they, as a young
00:32:25.750 --> 00:32:28.670
upstart management company, were looking for
00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:32.170
material. They were judges. They signed up to
00:32:32.170 --> 00:32:34.289
be judges and to just get all this fresh material.
00:32:34.450 --> 00:32:38.490
So they emailed me separately from Austin asking
00:32:38.490 --> 00:32:41.009
to have a meeting with them. And that's how I
00:32:41.009 --> 00:32:45.970
got my start. But I was also, you know, I entered
00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:49.460
the nickel competition. I got okay, but didn't
00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:52.000
succeed in there, and that was a huge bummer.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:59.599
I applied to be a manager's assistant at Brillstein
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.559
because I heard that another manager's assistant
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:04.819
at Brillstein got her script repped by her boss.
00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:06.799
And so I was like, all right, well, I'll get
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:08.680
it out there. And she didn't hire me, but she
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:10.019
did offer to read my script. And it was just
00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:11.759
like so many of these things where I was just
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:17.720
like, I'm all over the place. Another thing is
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:21.819
to make people aware that you are a writer. Embrace
00:33:21.819 --> 00:33:24.259
it. Don't be embarrassed. Don't hoard your material.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:26.640
I mean, if it's terrible, wait a little bit.
00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:28.859
But it's probably not. But also, no one is going
00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:31.779
to remember it if it's bad. That's maybe controversial
00:33:31.779 --> 00:33:33.880
advice, but it's one that I believe to be true.
00:33:33.940 --> 00:33:37.279
I don't think you really burn bridges with bad
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.099
scripts. Because people are only going to read
00:33:40.099 --> 00:33:42.119
five pages anyway and just tell you they read
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.500
it if it's bad. So you can send them a new script
00:33:45.500 --> 00:33:47.940
in the future. um but the point is like your
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:51.519
friends and other people in your network should
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:54.779
think of you as a writer so when they are having
00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:57.680
drinks with some agent or whatever or some agent's
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:01.339
assistant um and they're saying we're looking
00:34:01.339 --> 00:34:06.599
for uh you know race car movies they'd be like
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.179
well my friend i know my friend has been working
00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:10.860
on like a race car script like let me send it
00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:14.099
to you None of these are at all guaranteed ways
00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:16.800
in the industry, but one of them might be at
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:20.219
one point. So it's, again, it's just about doing
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:23.659
every little thing you can, planting seeds everywhere,
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.980
hosting, you know, doing podcasts. Like, just
00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:30.619
the internet is, like, it's great. Again, I know
00:34:30.619 --> 00:34:33.679
there's maybe some controversy around the Blacklist
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:38.420
website, but... i know people who have gotten
00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:42.039
um success uh from hosting their scripts there
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.000
so it's just like there's all these little things
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.760
that um on their own are absolutely no guarantee
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:54.659
of any success um but it only takes one one opportunity
00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:57.659
that was a really long unwieldy answer to your
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:00.119
question that was that was a fantastic answer
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.920
that was really good thank you okay Yeah, I mean,
00:35:04.940 --> 00:35:07.400
we're running out of time on the meet here. So
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:09.760
I just want to say it's been an absolute joy.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:12.539
Again, we can't thank you enough for coming on
00:35:12.539 --> 00:35:15.280
the show and chatting to us. The cobweb script.
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.380
Thank you for having me. It was one of the most
00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:19.599
inspirational scripts we've read so far on Script
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.599
to Scream. And I know, you know, our listeners
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:24.360
will get so much out of kind of hearing you talk
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.119
about the script, talking about your process.
00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.340
So both me and Lee, we just we can't thank you
00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:31.920
so much for coming on and taking the time. Of
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:33.239
course. Well, thank you for having me. Thank
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.400
you for having this podcast. As a writer, I really
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.840
love when people can devote the time to the script
00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:45.099
itself and talking about the process and the
00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:47.840
writing. So this is great. I've subsequently
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:50.219
become a listener. I just listened to your Brian
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:53.139
Duffield episode on my way back from Pennsylvania.
00:35:53.579 --> 00:35:56.480
The Babysitter was a huge inspiration. to me
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:57.840
i actually shouldn't just say that from the essay
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:59.820
i just rip off brian duffield i read a brian
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:01.880
duffield script as a as an assistant i was like
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:04.400
this guy's gotta figure it out i'm gonna read
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.579
everything that he's um written and uh uh do
00:36:07.579 --> 00:36:11.639
what he does so so for whale fall yes yes very
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:14.099
psyched for that one i love the great book too
00:36:14.099 --> 00:36:17.300
yeah yeah yeah it's gonna be brilliant amazing
00:36:17.300 --> 00:36:20.960
um thanks guys Thank you so much. Thank you so
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:22.539
much. Really appreciate it. And again, thank
00:36:22.539 --> 00:36:24.679
you for writing such an awesome script because,
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:27.300
you know, it really did blow my mind when I read
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:32.739
it. It's fantastic. You too much. Thanks so much.
00:36:39.099 --> 00:36:42.679
OK, so there we are. That was Chris Devlin. Fantastic
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:44.719
chat, I thought. I mean, really, really lovely
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.869
guy. Yeah, he was awesome, wasn't he? Really,
00:36:48.010 --> 00:36:50.969
really cool guy and really cool of him to stop
00:36:50.969 --> 00:36:52.929
in and have a chat with us. But yeah, I thought
00:36:52.929 --> 00:36:55.809
some of his responses to the questions are really
00:36:55.809 --> 00:36:58.630
kind of eye -opening and very interesting. Yeah,
00:36:58.670 --> 00:37:00.550
me too. I mean, it was really fascinating to
00:37:00.550 --> 00:37:02.570
hear him talk about, you know, a lot of the stuff
00:37:02.570 --> 00:37:05.199
that we sort of covered. I mean, I thought what
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.699
we could do again, I mean, we did this with when
00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:09.460
we sort of interviewed Brett Pierce, but we thought
00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.320
we could sort of have a quick chat about some
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:14.239
of the things that were that came up and maybe
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.780
some of the things that would be sort of interesting
00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:19.260
to our listeners and to sort of screenwriters
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:22.619
out there generally. And yes, just sort of just
00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:24.440
sort of cover some of the things that sort of
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:27.139
Chris said and some of the tips maybe and and
00:37:27.139 --> 00:37:28.739
sort of highlight some of that for our listeners.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.280
So I think one of the things that Chris mentioned.
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.619
was that he spent, you know, initially when he
00:37:34.619 --> 00:37:36.360
was sort of breaking into the industry, he spent
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:38.980
a lot of time doing coverage on scripts when
00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:41.280
he started out. And, you know, obviously reading
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.860
scripts is something that we've done a lot for
00:37:43.860 --> 00:37:46.460
on the course and feeding back on each other's
00:37:46.460 --> 00:37:48.880
work and that sort of thing. So I just wanted
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.539
to highlight, you know, how important I think
00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:54.519
it is to sort of go about reading scripts and
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:57.579
actually trying to sort of break them down. We've
00:37:57.579 --> 00:37:59.280
been doing a lot of that. So, yeah, I just wanted
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.099
to sort of get your thoughts on that, Lee, initially.
00:38:01.449 --> 00:38:03.329
about actually reading scripts and how important
00:38:03.329 --> 00:38:05.730
that is. Absolutely. I mean, there's no doubt
00:38:05.730 --> 00:38:07.989
in my mind that screenwriting is an art form.
00:38:08.090 --> 00:38:11.269
It's an art form. A lot of people think, you
00:38:11.269 --> 00:38:13.070
know, it's easier than writing books or it's
00:38:13.070 --> 00:38:16.329
easier than writing short stories and that, but
00:38:16.329 --> 00:38:18.769
it really isn't. You know, like the format may
00:38:18.769 --> 00:38:21.989
seem fairly simple, but there's so much nuance
00:38:21.989 --> 00:38:25.289
and there are so many layers and so much depth
00:38:25.289 --> 00:38:28.130
to what we do. You know, I mean, it's very easy
00:38:28.130 --> 00:38:30.800
to write a script. Don't get me wrong, you know,
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.219
but to write a good script is extremely difficult.
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:37.719
You know, it's very hard. And obviously feedback
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.539
is one of the key sort of things that you need
00:38:40.539 --> 00:38:42.880
to improve your script. You know, I mean, if
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:44.980
no one else reads it but you and then you send
00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:46.860
it off somewhere, the odds are it's going to
00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:52.139
suck ass. Just to not put too fine of a point
00:38:52.139 --> 00:38:55.679
on it, but you need that feedback. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:56.519 --> 00:38:58.480
But I mean, I've been guilty of that. You know,
00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:00.079
when I first wrote scripts, I thought they were
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:03.059
amazing when I first started. And, you know,
00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:05.320
and when people kind of gave me sort of like
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:07.699
criticizing feedback, I was like, well, you obviously
00:39:07.699 --> 00:39:11.380
don't know what you're talking about. And you
00:39:11.380 --> 00:39:15.159
have to kind of humble yourself in a way because
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.199
obviously you're very protective of your work.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:21.360
But, you know, there's an art to giving feedback
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.000
and there's also an art to receiving feedback,
00:39:24.219 --> 00:39:27.210
I think. There's no such thing as invaluable
00:39:27.210 --> 00:39:31.250
feedback. It's all useful. Even if it's just
00:39:31.250 --> 00:39:34.690
how one person sees your work, that's still an
00:39:34.690 --> 00:39:36.530
eye opener. Because if one person sees your work
00:39:36.530 --> 00:39:39.929
like that, the odds are that a significant number
00:39:39.929 --> 00:39:42.789
of people will see your work like that. So you
00:39:42.789 --> 00:39:46.110
just have to think about what you've done. Think
00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:49.110
about how it can be changed. Think about how
00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:51.750
you can make things clearer. But yeah, feedback
00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:55.559
is so important. So important. Yeah. And I think
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.000
it's I think you're right. You know, it's difficult
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.719
to know what's landing and what's not and what's
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.280
clear and what's not in your story. And whether
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:04.039
you're if you're sort of foreshadowing things
00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:06.059
or setting things up, whether that lands or whether
00:40:06.059 --> 00:40:08.500
it doesn't, you know. So I think, you know, sort
00:40:08.500 --> 00:40:10.480
of feedback is really important for that sort
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.420
of thing. But also just more generally, I think,
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.099
you know, reading scripts is really important.
00:40:15.179 --> 00:40:17.599
You know, if you want to be kind of writing scripts
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.179
and familiarizing yourself with, you know, the
00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:23.579
sort of ebb and flow of a narrative over something.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.500
a screenplay format i think is really really
00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:29.360
important so i guess my my sort of thing is you
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.679
know trying to read as many scripts as you can
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:35.079
basically yeah yeah and read them with a critical
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:38.099
eye you know don't just sit in like i mean just
00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:39.900
sitting and reading a script is great and it
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:43.500
will help you but if you've got the time to just
00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:46.519
kind of sit and really kind of look and take
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.519
it apart and analyze different things And the
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:52.420
more you do it, the more adept you'll become
00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:54.599
at it. I know since I've started the podcast,
00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:57.639
for example, you know, I've become a lot more
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:01.360
critical of screenplays because I've had to,
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:03.900
you know, I'm literally like taking these things
00:41:03.900 --> 00:41:07.340
apart scene by scene. And I've kind of developed
00:41:07.340 --> 00:41:11.679
a bit of an eye for it now. And it's so eye -opening.
00:41:11.900 --> 00:41:14.480
It's just ridiculous. But, yeah, I mean, read
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.239
scripts to write scripts. But, yeah, absolutely.
00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:20.280
Chris also spoke about channeling some of his
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.679
own sort of formative experiences and fears and
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:25.239
how that sort of helped him generate ideas for
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:28.800
horror specifically. Yeah. And, you know, I think
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.239
this is something that you've probably done a
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.219
little bit as a writer as well of horror. So
00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:34.420
I just wondered if you could, you know, as a
00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:38.139
sort of writer of horror, you know, mostly I'd
00:41:38.139 --> 00:41:39.900
be interested to get your sort of take on that.
00:41:40.219 --> 00:41:44.860
Yeah. I mean, my most successful scripts have
00:41:44.860 --> 00:41:48.119
all been ones that have a very large. for lack
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.000
of a better way a large part of me in them you
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.400
know a lot of either a character is you know
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.300
kind of loosely based on me or based on experiences
00:41:57.300 --> 00:41:59.940
or based on fears that i've had i mean they say
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:03.980
write what you know um and that's very true because
00:42:03.980 --> 00:42:05.920
no one can write what you know better than you
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:09.559
and the odds are that if something scares you
00:42:09.559 --> 00:42:12.420
it's going to scare somebody else unless you're
00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:15.599
like scared of terrified of blue tack or something
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.480
like that the odds are if there's something that
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.420
genuinely terrifies you it will genuinely terrify
00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:24.480
a large percentage of people and even if it doesn't
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.559
terrify them they'll still understand that fear
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.539
and and the fear will still kind of seep in and
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:32.699
they'll still get scared you know if you do it
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:36.159
well enough um but yeah write what you know and
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:39.300
yeah put put put yourself in there the only downside
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:42.659
to doing that is again going back to the previous
00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.219
point it kind of makes it a bit harder receiving
00:42:45.219 --> 00:42:48.179
feedback if you've you know if you've put a lot
00:42:48.179 --> 00:42:50.079
of yourself into a script and then someone tears
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.539
it apart it can be a bit soul -destroying but
00:42:52.539 --> 00:42:54.860
it's all part of the process absolutely yeah
00:42:54.860 --> 00:42:58.179
i mean i know uh you know the the idea of using
00:42:58.179 --> 00:43:01.579
kind of almost kind of intrinsic primal fears
00:43:01.579 --> 00:43:03.559
is something that you know i know you've definitely
00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:05.880
thought about and done you know in some of the
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:08.019
scripts that i've read of yours so i thought
00:43:08.019 --> 00:43:10.159
that was really sort of interesting you know
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:11.880
of course to talk about that is specifically
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.179
in relation to horror yeah horror done well is
00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:18.659
horror that's personal yeah yeah uh but personal
00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:20.239
to us all you know there's sort of universal
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:23.099
kind of fears i think that you can as well as
00:43:23.099 --> 00:43:24.960
your own sort of personal fears but there's this
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.880
universality to the human experience i guess
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.039
and yeah you know horror sort of tapping into
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:33.099
that can be um very popular and very powerful
00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:36.179
you know it's cool it was interesting to hear
00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.130
chris um speak about being influenced by val
00:43:39.130 --> 00:43:41.150
luton as well and some of the older kind of film
00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:43.670
you know me lee i love you know talking about
00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:46.889
old movies how they influence newer films and
00:43:46.889 --> 00:43:49.170
seeing those links but did you have any thoughts
00:43:49.170 --> 00:43:51.809
you know off the back of that about sort of visiting
00:43:51.809 --> 00:43:54.190
or at least being aware of some of the sort of
00:43:54.190 --> 00:43:56.869
classic horror movies and oh yeah i mean they're
00:43:56.869 --> 00:43:58.929
they're classic for a reason aren't they you
00:43:58.929 --> 00:44:01.369
know the classics because they're iconic and
00:44:01.369 --> 00:44:04.349
because you know they kind of established a lot
00:44:04.349 --> 00:44:06.889
of the tropes and and things that we are so used
00:44:06.889 --> 00:44:11.309
to tune out but i mean there's a as i was saying
00:44:11.309 --> 00:44:13.590
isn't there like he who forgets history is doomed
00:44:13.590 --> 00:44:17.590
to repeat it so you know learn from what has
00:44:17.590 --> 00:44:21.329
gone before i think every script and every film
00:44:21.329 --> 00:44:24.369
is a teachable or a learnable experience yeah
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:26.400
You know, you can just sit and watch like the
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.539
worst movie ever made and you will still learn
00:44:28.539 --> 00:44:31.360
something from it. Most likely like how not to
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:34.619
do something. But it's still you're still learning.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.320
And, you know, the classics, as I said, are classics
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:41.119
for a reason. And, yeah, draw inspiration from
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:43.619
them. Yeah, absolutely. And we're covering some
00:44:43.619 --> 00:44:46.059
of them on Script to Scream. So have a listen
00:44:46.059 --> 00:44:47.960
to the podcast because, you know, we're covering
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:50.739
some of these classics right here. Yep, absolutely.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.199
Classics, moderns. you know we uh we dip our
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:58.179
toes in everything so chris spoke about um how
00:44:58.179 --> 00:45:01.280
finding tone is really important to him when
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.800
he is sort of writing a project and you know
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.880
his inclusion i think of that first page on the
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.039
cobweb script he spoke about this was really
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:13.280
sort of an effort to do this and wanting to kind
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.019
of set a tone. But he also sort of spoke about
00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:18.039
how, you know, this was an effort to sort of
00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:21.340
try and help set a mood and a tone for some of
00:45:21.340 --> 00:45:22.860
the interns that he thought would probably be
00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:25.099
likely doing coverage on the script initially,
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.139
which I thought was a really great tip when you're
00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:30.119
writing spec scripts, you know, is just be aware
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:31.920
of your audience and who's kind of going to be
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.539
reading this. Yeah, I mean, one of the best pieces
00:45:34.539 --> 00:45:37.400
of advice, screenwriting advice I ever got was
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:41.579
from my... One of my mentors, Dr. Michaela Cortese,
00:45:41.619 --> 00:45:45.179
she said to me, she said, write the best script
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:47.739
for the person that's going to be reading it
00:45:47.739 --> 00:45:52.360
and write the best script to be read rather than
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:56.059
the best script to be filmed. Yeah. Because the
00:45:56.059 --> 00:45:57.940
first thing you need to do is get a reader's
00:45:57.940 --> 00:46:01.559
attention. And you need to make whoever reads
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.570
your script love it enough. to show it to the
00:46:04.570 --> 00:46:07.010
next person. And then they've got to love it
00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:09.409
enough to show it to the next person. And in
00:46:09.409 --> 00:46:12.690
order to do that, you've got to kind of go arguably
00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:16.070
down like the Shane Black, Brian Duffield kind
00:46:16.070 --> 00:46:19.010
of route or like Chris did with Cobweb and just
00:46:19.010 --> 00:46:23.610
make it an incredibly smooth and enjoyable read,
00:46:23.829 --> 00:46:26.590
you know, something that stands out. And as Chris
00:46:26.590 --> 00:46:30.050
said, he kind of almost sort of programmed that
00:46:30.050 --> 00:46:33.880
script. to catch the attention of the sort of
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:36.000
like low ranking script readers who are like
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.639
the gatekeepers in a way, like the first line
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:40.719
of defense that you've got to kind of break through
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:44.400
to get your script up to the upper echelons of
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.519
management. And obviously he did a fantastic
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:48.880
job of that and it, you know, it paid dividends
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:52.940
and it worked really well. Yeah. And to that,
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:55.099
I mean, I thought it was fascinating that Chris
00:46:55.099 --> 00:46:57.599
spoke about how the style of the cobweb script
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:01.000
was influenced by the perspective of the protagonist.
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:03.719
And I really thought that that was another great
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:05.659
tip for people to sort of take on board and absorb
00:47:05.659 --> 00:47:09.860
and sort of be cognizant of how your the style
00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:13.440
of your script should be sort of in a way, I
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:16.659
think, influenced by by the perspective of the
00:47:16.659 --> 00:47:19.380
protagonist, the main character in your film.
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:22.539
Yeah. yeah absolutely i think that's a really
00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:26.300
a really solid point i mean i i think even chris
00:47:26.300 --> 00:47:29.119
sort of said that he's tried that similar technique
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.019
on different scripts and it just didn't work
00:47:31.019 --> 00:47:34.239
i think it was a case of the perfect writing
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:36.500
style with the perfect protagonist and it kind
00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:39.300
of gelled together just to make a absolutely
00:47:39.949 --> 00:47:42.730
pretty much damn perfect script but yeah there's
00:47:42.730 --> 00:47:45.449
absolutely no reason why you can't tailor your
00:47:45.449 --> 00:47:48.809
writing style to your main protagonist it's something
00:47:48.809 --> 00:47:51.409
i've never really thought of before but it's
00:47:51.409 --> 00:47:53.309
definitely something that's kind of stayed with
00:47:53.309 --> 00:47:56.530
me after after our chat and uh it's something
00:47:56.530 --> 00:48:00.530
i will definitely try and implement in some form
00:48:00.530 --> 00:48:02.969
in the future yeah certainly something just to
00:48:02.969 --> 00:48:04.949
be aware of isn't it i mean it's probably more
00:48:04.949 --> 00:48:07.489
sort of relevant i guess when there's a child
00:48:07.489 --> 00:48:10.239
protagonist but And sort of Chris talks about
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.860
how, you know, how the script was molded to kind
00:48:12.860 --> 00:48:15.619
of suit that sort of protagonist being younger.
00:48:15.699 --> 00:48:17.320
And you mentioned that when we did our sort of
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:19.420
roundup as well. But yeah, I just thought it
00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:21.719
was a sort of interesting point and something
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:24.199
that sort of writers can be aware of in terms
00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:26.920
of. keeping their sort of protagonist perspective
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:29.579
in mind when writing the script and and sort
00:48:29.579 --> 00:48:32.500
of maybe even sort of consciously molding the
00:48:32.500 --> 00:48:35.199
style of the script around the sort of protagonist
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:36.920
of the piece it's something that you know you
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:38.960
can experiment with and play with and see absolutely
00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:42.099
absolutely And we talked about obviously playing
00:48:42.099 --> 00:48:45.380
with the format of scripts and how this can be
00:48:45.380 --> 00:48:47.860
really engaging for readers and sort of mentioned
00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:50.219
that already. But, you know, as you sort of pointed
00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:52.380
out, Chris said that this can go too far sometimes.
00:48:52.579 --> 00:48:55.960
And it really does need to be subservient to
00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:58.639
the story. And I think that that is a really
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:00.940
important sort of point is when you're reading
00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:03.480
something like like Shane Black or like a Brian
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.579
Duffield script or like, you know, this cobweb
00:49:05.579 --> 00:49:08.539
script is that none of the sort of tinkering
00:49:08.539 --> 00:49:11.780
with formats. out of place and they are sort
00:49:11.780 --> 00:49:14.579
of subservient to the to the actual story that's
00:49:14.579 --> 00:49:18.559
being told and the tonality of the piece um and
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:22.079
i think that um you know that's it's a kind of
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.500
style over substance sort of debate isn't it
00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:26.000
and these these scripts definitely have sort
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.280
of substance and the style works towards that
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:30.760
um so i didn't know if you had any sort of general
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.420
thoughts on that i'm a big fan i'm a bit as you
00:49:34.420 --> 00:49:37.360
know i love like brian duffield and but yeah
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:40.659
any kind of like playful kind of creative formatting
00:49:40.659 --> 00:49:45.300
in a script i usually am very much behind But
00:49:45.300 --> 00:49:47.619
it does kind of have to feel organic. You know,
00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:49.880
if you just kind of just throw something in there
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:51.940
one time in the middle of the script, it's going
00:49:51.940 --> 00:49:54.860
to feel really jarring and out of place. But
00:49:54.860 --> 00:49:57.400
Devlin was very clever the way he did it. I mean,
00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:00.300
from the literally the very first page after
00:50:00.300 --> 00:50:03.679
the title page, he starts to play with the formatting
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:07.219
of the script and he just keeps it going. Let's
00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:09.440
say not on every page. You know, you'd often
00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:11.980
go quite a few pages without anything kind of
00:50:11.980 --> 00:50:13.719
happening. But then you'll just get like a little.
00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:17.170
A little kind of just a bit of tinkering with
00:50:17.170 --> 00:50:19.969
the formatting, the font size, the alignment.
00:50:20.550 --> 00:50:24.590
Nothing crazy. There's no kind of Duffield style
00:50:24.590 --> 00:50:28.150
splash pages in there. And there's nothing on
00:50:28.150 --> 00:50:31.449
the scale of, for example, the original Quiet
00:50:31.449 --> 00:50:35.090
Place script, which is a script that has the
00:50:35.090 --> 00:50:39.030
most creative uses of formatting by far. and
00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:41.510
that was enough to get that script noticed but
00:50:41.510 --> 00:50:44.190
to get it made it was quite heavily rewritten
00:50:44.190 --> 00:50:46.889
and most of that stuff was taken out yeah but
00:50:46.889 --> 00:50:51.170
it just goes back to writing the right script
00:50:51.170 --> 00:50:54.869
for the right reader you know it was brazen enough
00:50:54.869 --> 00:50:57.969
to get the attention of the studios you know
00:50:57.969 --> 00:50:59.969
who decided they wanted to make the film and
00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:03.150
then they john krasinski come along and heavily
00:51:03.150 --> 00:51:06.289
rewrote the script took most of that flashy formatting
00:51:06.289 --> 00:51:09.880
out but you know if they hadn't had that in there
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:11.519
the script probably wouldn't have been noticed
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.320
so there is definitely a time and a place to
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:18.199
to play with your formatting but if you're going
00:51:18.199 --> 00:51:21.079
to do it it's got to be consistent you know you
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:24.980
can't just throw one random page in there because
00:51:24.980 --> 00:51:26.860
it's going to feel really out of place it's going
00:51:26.860 --> 00:51:30.059
to feel really jarring it needs to feel it needs
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:32.820
to feel organic it needs to feel you know like
00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:36.280
it belongs there and not like it's just a a gimmick
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:38.760
you've thrown in just to kind of look cool you
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:41.500
know yeah i think i mean i think that my sort
00:51:41.500 --> 00:51:43.159
of general thinking was that it has to be in
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:45.940
service of something yes and exactly there needs
00:51:45.940 --> 00:51:48.980
to be a reason for it and it has to be in service
00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:53.000
of the story or the tone of the piece and you
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:54.400
know i think that's the important thing you know
00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:56.960
formatting with scripts is interesting and playing
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.619
with it is is eye -catching but you know if it's
00:51:59.619 --> 00:52:01.679
not actually in service of something then it
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:03.699
can feel just like a bit of a gimmick you know
00:52:03.699 --> 00:52:07.170
yeah yeah Chris talked about the ending of the
00:52:07.170 --> 00:52:09.289
film, which is really different, obviously, from
00:52:09.289 --> 00:52:11.469
the ending of the script. And he mentioned how
00:52:11.469 --> 00:52:14.550
happy he was to sort of be involved in the production
00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:17.530
and how much he was sort of happy to work with
00:52:17.530 --> 00:52:20.309
his collaborators. And I thought this was another
00:52:20.309 --> 00:52:23.260
really great tip just about sort of. putting
00:52:23.260 --> 00:52:25.400
your ego aside a little bit and just being a
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.800
really good collaborator and being willing to
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:30.519
sort of work with people. And I wonder if you
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:32.699
had any thoughts about that, you know, specifically
00:52:32.699 --> 00:52:35.639
about our own sort of experiences on the course,
00:52:35.820 --> 00:52:38.960
but just more generally about sort of being a
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:41.559
sort of a willing collaborator and a good sort
00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:43.800
of worker, you know, good person to work with.
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:49.219
I think if you want to get anywhere in this industry,
00:52:49.420 --> 00:52:52.510
you've got to be, you've got to. think of your
00:52:52.510 --> 00:52:57.190
script almost as as an asset that you're you're
00:52:57.190 --> 00:52:59.570
making you know you're creating it and then you're
00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:01.630
going to sell it to someone who's going to then
00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:04.309
put their twist on it and then someone else is
00:53:04.309 --> 00:53:06.309
going to put their twist on it and if you're
00:53:06.309 --> 00:53:10.010
lucky like in chris's um chris's case you kind
00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:12.329
of get to stay on board and you get to kind of
00:53:12.329 --> 00:53:15.730
help shape that but at the same time i've heard
00:53:15.730 --> 00:53:20.130
so many stories from so many people about you
00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:22.460
know screenwriters who have you know they've
00:53:22.460 --> 00:53:24.840
they've got a good script and you know that someone's
00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:27.179
interested in it and as soon as they mention
00:53:27.179 --> 00:53:30.460
like rewrites or changing things this the screenwriter
00:53:30.460 --> 00:53:32.880
literally just shuts down it's like no you can't
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:35.099
you know you can't change it this is my script
00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:37.360
this is how it is and the second that happens
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:40.980
they're just written off done you know you've
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:42.500
got to be willing to work you've got to be willing
00:53:42.500 --> 00:53:43.840
to play the game you've got to be willing to
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:46.480
work with the studios the executives you know
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:49.219
if they want to make big changes to your script
00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:52.460
you can either choose to get your film made in
00:53:52.460 --> 00:53:56.920
some form or don't yeah you know i think it is
00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:00.340
it is that simple i mean you know we've also
00:54:00.340 --> 00:54:03.639
heard lots of really positive stories about writers
00:54:03.639 --> 00:54:06.280
who have been involved all the way through um
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.679
who have been on set who have like you know done
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:11.920
on onset rewrites who have been thoroughly involved
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:14.599
and they're always the ones that are willing
00:54:15.289 --> 00:54:18.170
to work with the studios, always the ones willing
00:54:18.170 --> 00:54:20.969
to work with other people to kind of collectively
00:54:20.969 --> 00:54:22.750
shape that vision. It's like you always say,
00:54:22.769 --> 00:54:25.789
screenwriting, you know, it's a collaborative
00:54:25.789 --> 00:54:28.090
medium. You know, filmmaking is a collaborative
00:54:28.090 --> 00:54:31.269
medium. You know, the screenplay is kind of the
00:54:31.269 --> 00:54:34.929
blueprint, but as that blueprint starts to be
00:54:34.929 --> 00:54:36.949
made, a lot of the times there's going to be
00:54:36.949 --> 00:54:38.869
changes, there's going to be things that don't
00:54:38.869 --> 00:54:42.630
work for whatever reason, and you've got to be
00:54:42.630 --> 00:54:45.130
able to think on your feet. yeah yeah yeah you
00:54:45.130 --> 00:54:46.969
just gotta be open right and just be a good yeah
00:54:46.969 --> 00:54:49.429
good sort of generous collaborator who's willing
00:54:49.429 --> 00:54:53.110
to sort of uh you know put put ego aside and
00:54:53.110 --> 00:54:55.869
not be too precious and just work with people
00:54:55.869 --> 00:54:57.730
and sort of get things made you know sometimes
00:54:57.730 --> 00:55:00.190
it's budgetary sometimes it's just something
00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:02.349
you know doesn't work for a particular actor
00:55:02.349 --> 00:55:04.789
or you know director or whoever wants to take
00:55:04.789 --> 00:55:07.349
it a certain way but i just think it's it's really
00:55:07.349 --> 00:55:10.699
important I just think it's so important to be
00:55:10.699 --> 00:55:13.559
a willing kind of participant in the process
00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:16.840
and just be happy to work with people and not
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.679
be a thorn in the side and a sort of, you know,
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:21.840
a bit of a diva about these things. I think that's
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:25.039
really important. Yeah, I think so too. I mean,
00:55:25.059 --> 00:55:28.239
it's just, it's a massive part of the game, isn't
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:31.119
it? Yeah. yeah absolutely yeah so it's interesting
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:33.159
uh again you know sort of chris chatted about
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:35.980
his process and how you know it's really quite
00:55:35.980 --> 00:55:38.860
bespoke to each project at the moment You know,
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:40.760
he's working sort of quite intuitively, but he
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:43.719
did mention that he is possibly looking at implementing
00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:47.820
a more sort of structured process to his work.
00:55:48.099 --> 00:55:49.800
I just thought that was interesting, you know,
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.960
that not everyone has a sort of set process or
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.500
sometimes it's kind of quite intuitive and bespoke.
00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:58.099
Other people have a much more sort of structured
00:55:58.099 --> 00:56:00.659
process. And, you know, both of these both of
00:56:00.659 --> 00:56:03.360
these methods can can obviously can work, you
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:05.900
know. But I just wondered what your sort of thoughts
00:56:05.900 --> 00:56:08.619
on that were and any sort of nuggets of wisdom.
00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.719
I think it just boils down to there's no one
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:14.760
right, correct way to write a screenplay. You
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:17.179
know, what works for me may not work for you.
00:56:17.739 --> 00:56:20.599
Everybody is different. You know, everyone will
00:56:20.599 --> 00:56:23.400
give you advice. They will, you know, try to
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.260
teach you best practices, you know, which you
00:56:26.260 --> 00:56:29.539
should always learn. Yeah. But just because you've
00:56:29.539 --> 00:56:31.159
learned something doesn't mean you have to use
00:56:31.159 --> 00:56:33.619
it. You know, I think I was a big fan of the
00:56:33.619 --> 00:56:36.219
older, the Bruce Lee saying, is it be like, I
00:56:36.219 --> 00:56:38.619
was just thinking that. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
00:56:38.619 --> 00:56:41.820
take what works and just discard what doesn't
00:56:41.820 --> 00:56:45.320
until you find your own part. Make it your own.
00:56:45.619 --> 00:56:48.800
Yeah. Make it your own. I think that is such
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:53.519
a, such a key thing, especially in screenwriting
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:57.440
that, um, learn as much as you can and then decide
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.920
what works for you and what doesn't. Yeah. yeah
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:03.699
the more you know the more options you have the
00:57:03.699 --> 00:57:06.579
more tools you have in your toolkit and the more
00:57:06.579 --> 00:57:10.219
versatile yeah i mean so i mean just to sort
00:57:10.219 --> 00:57:12.099
of round up i mean chris you know spoke about
00:57:12.099 --> 00:57:14.460
having sort of the germ of an idea to begin with
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.480
and then you know over time you know sometimes
00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.039
years sometimes months adding kind of little
00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:21.480
notes and then ideas and then sort of having
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:24.559
you know images etc coming coming up in his mind
00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:26.300
and maybe even sort of putting some images aside
00:57:26.300 --> 00:57:29.380
and then going on to write a sort of more formalized
00:57:29.380 --> 00:57:32.440
outline um or a beat sheet sort of thing and
00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.860
then he was talking about taking a pass at the
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:37.280
first sort of 15 pages, you know, and seeing
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.539
how that works out and, you know, getting to
00:57:39.539 --> 00:57:42.400
the end of that 15 and thinking, is this something
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:44.400
that's going to work or not? You know, I just
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:46.139
thought that was interesting. That wasn't really
00:57:46.139 --> 00:57:48.219
interesting. That was an approach I've never
00:57:48.219 --> 00:57:51.500
kind of attempted or even sort of thought about,
00:57:51.579 --> 00:57:55.650
but I kind of liked the idea of it because. Sometimes
00:57:55.650 --> 00:57:58.250
it feels like I spend forever planning stuff
00:57:58.250 --> 00:58:02.789
out and I never get around to writing stuff anymore.
00:58:02.889 --> 00:58:06.750
I'm always planning. I think it's getting to
00:58:06.750 --> 00:58:08.550
that point where you just take the plunge. Sometimes
00:58:08.550 --> 00:58:10.829
it's good just to sit down in front of your laptop
00:58:10.829 --> 00:58:13.030
or your typewriter or your notebook and just
00:58:13.030 --> 00:58:17.880
write. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I just splurged
00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:20.340
it out. I mean, he did speak about writing in
00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:22.400
order, which I thought was interesting. And then
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:24.539
sort of starting each day, reading through what
00:58:24.539 --> 00:58:26.880
he's written before. And that's definitely something
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.760
that I do. And just sort of instinctively, I've
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.099
fallen into that process of reading everything
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:34.519
up to the point that I'm starting again and then
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:36.800
moving forward. What about you, Lee? What do
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:40.860
you do at the start? Usually that's my jam. I
00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:43.960
usually do try to write things in order. There
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:46.900
are some times when I've got a scene really clear
00:58:46.900 --> 00:58:49.079
in my mind and I've got one that isn't and they
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:51.420
don't correlate in that order. So sometimes I
00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:54.900
will jump ahead a scene or two. Sometimes I'll
00:58:54.900 --> 00:58:58.659
write the ending. But usually, as a rule, I tend
00:58:58.659 --> 00:59:03.219
to write in order. I just find it easier that
00:59:03.219 --> 00:59:04.980
way. But I know there are some people that always
00:59:04.980 --> 00:59:06.639
write the end first. Some people will do that
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:09.840
and work backwards. Again, there's no right or
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.420
wrong way to do it. It's just whatever works
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:15.619
for you. But yeah, I tend to write fairly chronologically,
00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.840
but I have been known to skip a scene or two
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:20.599
if I just can't get my head around it. And then
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:24.340
once I skip it, my subconscious is kind of slogging
00:59:24.340 --> 00:59:26.260
away at it while I'm doing other things. And
00:59:26.260 --> 00:59:29.579
then I can usually just go back and get it, get
00:59:29.579 --> 00:59:32.739
a handle on it. Yeah, good stuff. So Chris talks
00:59:32.739 --> 00:59:34.539
about trying to be a bit more conscious about
00:59:34.539 --> 00:59:37.429
having a central theme. um although you know
00:59:37.429 --> 00:59:40.389
historically he's been a sort of a bit more about
00:59:40.389 --> 00:59:42.969
discovering the theme as as the process went
00:59:42.969 --> 00:59:44.730
on a little bit like kind of brett talked about
00:59:44.730 --> 00:59:47.570
previously but i wondered if you had any thoughts
00:59:47.570 --> 00:59:50.090
on that and what your sort of process is on that
00:59:50.090 --> 00:59:54.210
i struggle with theme it doesn't usually come
00:59:54.210 --> 00:59:57.889
until after the first draft i think i've usually
00:59:57.889 --> 01:00:01.250
got like a rough idea but sometimes it changes
01:00:01.250 --> 01:00:04.829
completely And sometimes it's, you know, it just
01:00:04.829 --> 01:00:07.409
needs a little bit of reinforcing, but I try
01:00:07.409 --> 01:00:10.210
not to dwell too much on it. I know it needs
01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:12.449
to be in there. I know it, you know, but I find
01:00:12.449 --> 01:00:15.889
it tends to come organically after a while. You
01:00:15.889 --> 01:00:17.769
know, there's no point trying to force a theme
01:00:17.769 --> 01:00:20.070
in there. Something will come. Every story has
01:00:20.070 --> 01:00:24.190
some kind of theme to it. You know, you can always
01:00:24.190 --> 01:00:27.750
find a theme, but usually one will find you.
01:00:28.090 --> 01:00:31.659
Yeah. And that's how I tend to work. yeah i'm
01:00:31.659 --> 01:00:33.800
kind of the same i mean i tend to have a sort
01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:36.219
of central idea and it's usually about something
01:00:37.150 --> 01:00:39.230
um in a sort of broader context you know in a
01:00:39.230 --> 01:00:41.489
theme sort of context but quite often that has
01:00:41.489 --> 01:00:44.230
altered slightly or changed a little bit and
01:00:44.230 --> 01:00:46.150
and something else kind of comes out in the process
01:00:46.150 --> 01:00:48.610
and i guess it's sort of it's generally a good
01:00:48.610 --> 01:00:51.250
idea to have like a guiding theme that you're
01:00:51.250 --> 01:00:53.929
generally working towards because it can help
01:00:53.929 --> 01:00:56.269
solve problems you know when this sort of screenplay
01:00:56.269 --> 01:00:58.809
you know when things grind to a halt and you're
01:00:58.809 --> 01:01:00.409
thinking oh my god what you know where's this
01:01:00.409 --> 01:01:03.099
going to go sometimes you can reference back
01:01:03.099 --> 01:01:05.260
to to your sort of your premise or your theme
01:01:05.260 --> 01:01:08.079
and and that can guide you in a way be a guiding
01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:10.719
light but yeah i think more often it does it
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:12.599
does sort of organically change through a process
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:14.659
isn't it it's interesting how that how that works
01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:17.619
A couple of sort of last things that Priscilla
01:01:17.619 --> 01:01:20.980
mentioned about breaking in and, you know, obviously
01:01:20.980 --> 01:01:23.800
quite rightly, Lee, he said, never use AI, which
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:26.380
I'm, you know, all for, a big fan of. Don't,
01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:30.760
you know, submit to our robotic AI overlords
01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:33.579
too easily. Pass off your creativity that simply.
01:01:33.699 --> 01:01:36.360
I think that's very important. It's my hobby
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:38.880
horse. Be invested in your friend's success,
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:42.559
I think was really a good. Yes. And I think that's
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:44.840
really important, you know, to try and sort of.
01:01:44.909 --> 01:01:47.190
celebrate your friends successes try and help
01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:49.650
them as much as you can yeah be there for them
01:01:49.650 --> 01:01:53.170
and and don't be uh you know sort of um in any
01:01:53.170 --> 01:01:55.690
way kind of jealous about other people's yeah
01:01:55.690 --> 01:01:58.570
no success i think that's a really great tip
01:01:59.420 --> 01:02:01.340
he also mentioned you can engineer your luck
01:02:01.340 --> 01:02:03.559
to a certain degree by creating opportunities
01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.019
and and sort of putting yourself out there as
01:02:06.019 --> 01:02:08.960
much as possible and uh i think those are really
01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:11.739
good sort of tips for people absolutely yeah
01:02:11.739 --> 01:02:14.119
i found that really fascinating like you know
01:02:14.119 --> 01:02:16.940
just hearing about how he kind of got his break
01:02:16.940 --> 01:02:21.619
and if you ask 100 screenwriters how they how
01:02:21.619 --> 01:02:23.139
they broke into the industry you'll probably
01:02:23.139 --> 01:02:28.150
get 100 different answers you know it really
01:02:28.150 --> 01:02:29.969
is different for everyone there's no kind of
01:02:29.969 --> 01:02:35.010
set way to do it but the keys that always i always
01:02:35.010 --> 01:02:41.150
hear are you know network network network don't
01:02:41.150 --> 01:02:44.829
be a dick that's pretty much the the golden rule
01:02:44.829 --> 01:02:46.909
of life you know just don't be a dick and just
01:02:46.909 --> 01:02:50.250
you know network your ass off but don't net don't
01:02:50.250 --> 01:02:54.090
network just for the sake of trying to get in
01:02:54.090 --> 01:02:56.909
network for the sake of learning yeah you know
01:02:56.909 --> 01:02:59.670
don't ask people to introduce you to managers
01:02:59.670 --> 01:03:02.570
or you know give you breaks or anything like
01:03:02.570 --> 01:03:04.769
that just ask them for advice and ask them for
01:03:04.769 --> 01:03:08.030
help and kind of build up build up friendships
01:03:08.030 --> 01:03:10.630
because that's more important at the end of the
01:03:10.630 --> 01:03:12.070
day because then if you don't break in you've
01:03:12.070 --> 01:03:14.389
still got a load of really good friends yeah
01:03:14.389 --> 01:03:17.869
and that's arguably worth you know worth even
01:03:17.869 --> 01:03:20.929
more yeah Yeah, that's right. I mean, definitely
01:03:20.929 --> 01:03:23.530
sort of networking so important. And I think,
01:03:23.530 --> 01:03:26.809
like you say, networking, you know, without necessarily
01:03:26.809 --> 01:03:30.289
having not that you're not having a goal, but,
01:03:30.349 --> 01:03:31.730
you know, you just don't want to be going around
01:03:31.730 --> 01:03:33.530
asking people for things all the time. You know,
01:03:33.590 --> 01:03:36.070
you just want to sort of be be a good kind of
01:03:36.070 --> 01:03:37.849
colleague again. I guess it goes back to, you
01:03:37.849 --> 01:03:40.829
know, and sort of. you know, be someone who is
01:03:40.829 --> 01:03:43.309
fun to engage with and is pleasant to engage
01:03:43.309 --> 01:03:45.630
with. And people know that you're not going to
01:03:45.630 --> 01:03:47.449
be sort of asking them to do things for you,
01:03:47.449 --> 01:03:50.050
you know, every step of the way. I think that's
01:03:50.050 --> 01:03:52.730
that's sort of really important. I think, you
01:03:52.730 --> 01:03:54.550
know, another thing he sort of mentioned, which
01:03:54.550 --> 01:03:56.590
I think was quite inspiring, really, was, you
01:03:56.590 --> 01:03:59.230
know, just to sort of embrace being a writer,
01:03:59.309 --> 01:04:02.690
you know, not to sort of be afraid of telling
01:04:02.690 --> 01:04:05.860
people that. you know, that's what you are. You're
01:04:05.860 --> 01:04:07.880
a writer. Don't be embarrassed about that or
01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:10.119
sort of worry about people thinking it's slightly
01:04:10.119 --> 01:04:12.780
flaky. Like just, you know, I just think it's
01:04:12.780 --> 01:04:14.900
so important to be sort of proud of what you're
01:04:14.900 --> 01:04:17.760
doing and be engaged in what you're doing, you
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:20.179
know. The other thing he did mention about was
01:04:20.179 --> 01:04:23.260
looking for sort of newer companies or maybe
01:04:23.260 --> 01:04:27.190
sort of agents assistants, et cetera. um not
01:04:27.190 --> 01:04:29.630
necessarily going straight for the sort of the
01:04:29.630 --> 01:04:32.090
big uh you know the sort of the top brass but
01:04:32.090 --> 01:04:34.789
you know really being conscious about being strategic
01:04:34.789 --> 01:04:36.889
about who you're sending things to and who you're
01:04:36.889 --> 01:04:38.750
approaching so i thought that was another great
01:04:38.750 --> 01:04:40.989
that's not to say don't try the big guns you
01:04:40.989 --> 01:04:43.789
know that's right you know shoot for the stars
01:04:43.789 --> 01:04:45.949
and you know you might always land on the moon
01:04:45.949 --> 01:04:49.340
yeah absolutely good stuff OK, well, that's about
01:04:49.340 --> 01:04:51.659
it, Lee. I thought that was a really lovely chat
01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:53.780
with Chris. So sort of thankful that Chris came
01:04:53.780 --> 01:04:55.940
and spoke to us. He was so lovely and so sort
01:04:55.940 --> 01:04:58.579
of generous. We'll obviously be back with our
01:04:58.579 --> 01:05:01.119
next episode. Big one for the next episode, isn't
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:04.639
it, Lee? It is. Yeah, it is. We are finally doing
01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:09.280
our most requested script or scripts, which is
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:13.059
Alien. And we'll be looking, we'll be comparing
01:05:13.059 --> 01:05:17.059
the film to the Walter Hill draft and the Dan
01:05:17.059 --> 01:05:20.829
O 'Bannon draft. So we'll be comparing two different
01:05:20.829 --> 01:05:23.909
versions of the film. And there are some very
01:05:23.909 --> 01:05:26.429
eye -opening differences between the scripts,
01:05:26.550 --> 01:05:29.110
not just in the content, but in the way they're
01:05:29.110 --> 01:05:31.889
literally written, formatted, but down on paper.
01:05:32.110 --> 01:05:35.590
So hopefully it will be an interesting one. I'm
01:05:35.590 --> 01:05:37.789
not sure most of you out there know a fair bit
01:05:37.789 --> 01:05:40.710
about Alien, but hopefully we'll find some little
01:05:40.710 --> 01:05:44.170
nugget of information that might tickle your
01:05:44.170 --> 01:05:46.769
fancy. Good stuff. Well, I mean, you know me,
01:05:46.809 --> 01:05:50.420
I love Alien. uh you know a stone cold classic
01:05:50.420 --> 01:05:53.539
absolute bass looking forward to that one Yeah,
01:05:53.539 --> 01:05:56.239
so we'll be back soon. Obviously, we'll look
01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:58.760
forward to seeing you again. If you wanted to
01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:02.099
reach out to us, we are on most of or some of
01:06:02.099 --> 01:06:05.239
the social media platforms out there. Not all
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:07.980
by any means. But if you really want to reach
01:06:07.980 --> 01:06:09.920
out to us, it would be lovely to hear from you.
01:06:09.940 --> 01:06:11.719
You can go to our website as well, which is www
01:06:11.719 --> 01:06:15.780
.scripttoscreenpodcast .com. Obviously, it would
01:06:15.780 --> 01:06:18.900
be wonderful if you give us a lovely review or
01:06:18.900 --> 01:06:21.760
maybe a little sort of comment on some of these
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:24.719
places. we'd love to hear from you helps grow
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:28.179
the podcast of course um but until next time
01:06:28.179 --> 01:06:31.539
do take care keep networking your ass off and
01:06:31.539 --> 01:06:32.880
keep writing those scares folks