WEBVTT
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But in the last couple years, he's been able to speak about the illness as something that's his responsibility.
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I think I've framed it in this way before.
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It's like it's it's it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
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It is something that you know you have to manage and maintain.
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If that's insight, but it's light years away from where he was.
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In this episode, Vince Granada discusses his book, Everything Is Fine, which tells the story of his family's experience with schizophrenia following his younger brother's deteriorating mental health condition and tragic outcome.
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When his brother Tim killed their mother during a psychotic episode, what he's learned and what has happened since.
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Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia.
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Three moms in the trenches.
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From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide.
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This is Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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We are at episode 140 after about a month-long break.
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So tonight we're going to be talking with Vince Granata, who's author of a memoir called Everything Is Fine.
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And um in spite of what the memoir is about, and I will just say it's about the unthinkable schizophrenia and family tragedy.
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And Vince will be joining us in just a few minutes.
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If you're new to our podcast, we are three moms.
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We've each written a book, we're advocates, and we each have sons with schizophrenia.
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I want to thank our first four contributors to our podcast.
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We just started on BuzzSprout, and in the show notes, you can do this yourself.
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Um, allowing people to support us after 140 episodes.
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Um, I just want to thank Fran and Elizabeth and Gay and Teresa, who've each committed to a couple of dollars a month to help support the podcast.
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And what this money goes to is the production of the podcast and to uh, you know, help us spread the word so that maybe once in a while we can buy a Facebook ad so that we can actually get the word out to people.
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Um so I I want to thank you for that and for being uh one of our supporters of schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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So Mindy Gryling, Mimi Feldman, welcome back.
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I haven't seen you in a while.
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We don't have time for a big catch-up, but um I do want to share that we were all on an episode of OPLM, Other Parents Like Me.
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And that was so much fun.
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So we've seen each other.
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And I do want to let you know that OPLM wanted to make that available to people who are not their members.
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They are a membership, um it's a membership base with some free resources.
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So if you're interested in free resources, you can go to their website, just search other parents like me or OPLM.
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And but our episode is going to be made available to us with a few privacy things taken care of, like some of the live questions will be edited out.
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But most of what we were able to do in that well-attended session will be available, and we're gonna make it um an episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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Right.
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So all the wisdom that we we spit out and all the crying we did, that's all gonna be available as um as a three moms episode.
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I also was delighted to be one of the keynote speakers at the eighth annual schizophrenia center symposium from Johns Hopkins.
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It was very, very interesting to hear about all the research that's being done about biomarkers and uh, you know, genetic causes for schizophrenia.
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And research takes a long time to be translated into new treatments, but at least that's happening.
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So I think And let me just say for our listeners that maybe didn't plug into the social media around Randy's speech.
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He got uh tons of compliments and all kinds of excitement on social media for that speech.
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And people have asked if it was taped.
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Was it Randy?
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I wouldn't mind seeing it myself.
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Oh, thank you.
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Uh, you know, I believe it was taped, but I don't know how or if it's going to be made available.
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It might be just for their archives.
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This symposium is made free to family members at a family night the night before.
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We you can ask the doctors anything.
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And then all day long there were three research scientists and little old me.
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And it was full of psychiatrists and social workers, uh, not too many people who are diagnosed themselves with schizophrenia, maybe a couple, but a lot of family members there as well.
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And I was able to have lunch with some family members.
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And I gotta tell you, there are so many people living with what Vince is gonna talk about tonight with with fear of their loved one and love for their loved one.
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And just, you know, as as you probably know, and I shared with the audience over in Baltimore, my son is currently unhoused, and I can't reach him because I believe that he traded his cell phone for a fix.
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I'm not sure.
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I can't reach him, but I do have spies everywhere, and I'm reaching out to the police, and I'm reaching out to the social workers, and they're just keeping an eye out, and I have an idea of where his money is being spent, so I know where he's hanging out, and I'm trying to find things out.
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Um but I will say that um my biggest fear beyond my son being unhoused is if he uh were to ever be harmed to anybody else.
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Like that is a fear for me, even bigger than suicide.
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I'll just say that.
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Of course, I have hopes.
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We all have hopes, but I also have fears.
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So that's where we are.
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Um, Mindy, you've had a joyous trip to London with your granddaughter.
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So that was the best, best trip I probably have ever taken, just because I was with her and of course London.
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And then I will say today, I hate to bring this up after your situation uh with Ben.
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Um, but uh Jim is we've been there, so I know what what you're going through and I feel your pain exceedingly.
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But for the Grylings, today was a really happy day.
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And it's kind of like the revolving door, the ups and downs of schizophrenia.
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But we met today with Jim's doctor, uh Dr.
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Leiteman, a lot of people know that listen here.
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And for the first time in the five years that he's been treating Jim, he didn't have to change a single thing.
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He said, Jim is perfect.
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Well, of course, nobody's perfect, but his meds are perfect.
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And one thing for any psychiatrist who might be listening or listeners who would like to advocate with their psychiatrist, Dr.
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Laiteman said that the reason Jim is perfect is because he goes to conferences and is constantly learning.
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And the thing that he learned somewhere over in the Scandinavian countries and that has helped Jim the most is adding lithium to his phasepine, which otherwise he wouldn't have known about.
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So we should all always be learning, both the professionals and those of us who advocate with the professionals.
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So for us, uh, unlike you, today was a happy day.
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That's wonderful.
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And I never begrudge anybody's happiness.
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I love to hear it because stories like that give us hope, and we all we all need hope.
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So um I was Dr.
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Leitman was at the conference with me, so I had a chance to chat with him as well.
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All right.
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Um, Mimi, I'm gonna let you bring it on home here and introduce our guest.
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And Vince, you can go ahead and um undo your camera unless you want to make a grand appearance.
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But Mimi, go ahead.
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Hi there.
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Okay, we have Vince Granata who wrote book that Randy.
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Do you have the book to hold up, Randy, or you don't?
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I do not have the book.
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There it is.
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Everything is fine.
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Everything is fine.
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And when I read this book, it just completely knocked me over.
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You know, I have to admit, I have become almost numb sometimes to reading another book about schizophrenia and a family story and all of that.
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But this one really touched me, and it you know, it's beautifully written, and it it touches on a subject that people don't want to talk about too much because it's terribly complicated, terribly painful, and everybody's biggest fear.
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So I felt we better be talking about it.
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So here we have Vince.
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And um why don't uh yeah, why don't we have Vince?
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Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to write the book and all of that?
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Oh, of course.
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Um, and first thank you all for for having me and and and for having this conversation uh with me.
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Um and and just to say off the top as well, I know Randy and Mimi both alluded to this, um, but my my book and and my family's experience does, I want to acknowledge, represent perhaps the the worst possible outcome um for a family that has a loved one uh living with schizophrenia.
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Um and I don't intend in talking about what happened in my family, and I didn't intend in writing the book to just sort of stoke fear or to make people deeply scared.
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Um I intend the opposite.
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And I hope, and it's always been my belief, that by talking as clearly and as openly as possible about how terrible things come to pass, that we can understand how and why those things happened and thereby perhaps be less afraid and thereby perhaps prevent them from happening in the future.
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Um, but just to give you a little bit of background about my book and my family.
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So about 15 years ago now, uh one of my siblings, I have three little siblings who happen to be triplets.
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One of the three of them started struggling with uh what we didn't at the time know was schizophrenia.
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There were multiple diagnoses over the course of several years.
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But over several years, um, his condition deteriorated.
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He went through a number of different treatment plans, a number of different psychiatrists, combative hospital stays, a story that I imagine is familiar to many of you.
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In the summer of 2014, uh so almost 12 years ago now, uh, he was living at home uh with our mom, and he was untreated at that time.
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He had been out of the hospital for over four months, and during a psychotic episode, he attacked and he killed her.
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When this happened, uh, I was not living at home.
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I was 27 at the time.
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Um and about a year after our mom died, uh, I started writing my book, what would eventually five or six years later uh be published as Everything Is Fine.
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Um and I started writing, I know sometimes there's you know a real big sort of why behind um, you know, why someone wants to write a book, why someone wants to take on that kind of endeavor.
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Uh, but for me initially it was more reflexive, um, just because writing has always been a big part of my life.
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Writing has been my best and frankly, sometimes only tool for understanding um what's going on with me, what's going on in the world.
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So when I started writing, it was largely just because I didn't know what else I could do.
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And as I kept writing, as I kept sort of researching um some of the background about schizophrenia, about mental health treatment, about all the gaps in that treatment, it became very apparent to me that there was so much that I didn't know.
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And I started thinking about what kind of book could I have read before my mom died that would have made a difference?
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And that became the big why going forward, trying to think about if I, you know, magically could have this book five years in the past, what kind of book would have actually made a difference for me and my family.
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Can you say more about that?
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Like what it would have made a difference how in coping with it and preventing it, what so this is somewhat illogical, I guess, but both would be my answer to that.
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I think most primarily I was trying to think about okay, what facets of Tim's illness did we, did I not really understand?
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And what aspects of that illness could I have had a better understanding of that would have actually led to Tim perhaps getting meaningful treatment.
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Um, and then additionally, I, you know, in that year or so after my mom died, it became very important to me.
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And as I was writing, this became more apparent too, that maintaining and building a new relationship with Tim going forward in the aftermath was something that was deeply important to me.
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And trying to think about, okay, in writing this book, how am I also thinking about the ways that he and I can remain family and he can remain someone that I'm close with?
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So um, you know, it's always one of my pet peeves that the mental health advocacy community often fairly universally wants to sweep the possibility of violence under the rug.
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And anytime anybody mentions it, and I should add, Vince, you know, my son, when he would the first few years when he was sick, he had delusions that he should kill me because I was the devil.
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So your story could have been my story.
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But anytime anybody talked about that, people rushed to kind of shush you because that would stigmatize everybody if anyone thought anyone with schizophrenia would be capable of murder.
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And I always maintain, and I think you did a wonderful job in your book, explaining how this could happen to anyone, and that we do need to talk about it because the more it happens, because people aren't aware it could happen or don't think it could happen, uh, the more that creates stigma, not the talking.
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So could you comment on that?
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Yeah, and I think Mindy, that that that last piece, right?
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I think I'm I'm very sensitive to issues around stigma and how certain ways of talking about mental illness can increase stigma that makes it very difficult for people living with these illnesses to go and seek treatment.
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But what you said about if we don't talk about these rare instances of violence, and it it is important to say that they are rare, they do occur, but they are rare, if we don't talk about them in as clearest terms as possible, then we don't understand how these things came to pass.
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And I I've always believed that the things we fear are the things that we don't understand.
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So by talking as clearly as I can and by writing, hopefully in a way that was transparent and as honest as I could about how Tim came to a point where his delusions led him to this terrible act of violence, I hope that that actually is destigmatizing, that we can see that there wasn't anything inevitable about what happened with Tim.
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It wasn't he didn't kill our mom just because he had this diagnosis.
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There were a number of failed things that happened along the way.
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There were a number of specific criteria that are particular to Tim that probably contributed as well.
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And to my mind, having that kind of conversation can be destigmatizing.
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So it's complicated and it's difficult, and I certainly understand that.
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And I want to be sensitive to all ways that we can potentially stigmatize certain mental illnesses, but I do very much believe that this conversation is important too.
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Do you think your parents, who were both doctors, really understood the prevalence of this happening?
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I didn't know the word until I read it in your book, Paraside.
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And you talk about how often it happens.
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Maybe you could share with our listeners and also explain do you think your parents really thought this was possible or not?
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So let me let me start a little bit more with the parasite um piece of it, which was um sadly a word I didn't know until I had to know um what that word was.
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Um I heard in the aftermath of my mom's death, I think I saw the word matricide on every single news story.
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And that was a word I had heard before, but it's one of those words that you think is sort of resigned to literature, not to not to real life, until you see it in that particular way.
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So I want to be very clear in saying that there isn't going to be an easy way to say that like X percentage of people with a certain diagnosis, like that is impossible to have that level of certainty.
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But one thing I did do in my book, and one thing that I hope was helpful in kind of conceptualizing both that this is rare, but also that it does occur, uh is I tried to look at as much data as I could from the year before my mom died, so 2013, to try to get a reasonable, as accurate as I could estimate for okay, how often, you know, in the US in the year 2013, did a son or daughter, much more commonly son, um, kill a parent during a psychotic episode.
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To do that, I didn't show all of my work in the book, um, but it's the short version is that it involved things like supplemental homicide reports that the FBI keeps, where they kind of classify different um, they classify homicide in different ways.
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And the number of sort of, you know, sibl or son or daughter killing a parent was it was somewhere over 300 um in terms of the number that occurred in the country that year.
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From that number, I then went to a number of different studies, some done by the Treatment Advocacy Center, some done by experts on parasite all over the world, to try to get a sense of you know how many of these perhaps were um during a psychotic episode.
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And the best I could do in terms of like a ballpark number was 200.
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Um, that there were 200 instances in 2013, uh, to the best of my knowledge, where there was a son or daughter who was in the grip of a psychotic episode who killed a parent.
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I hesitate to sort of put a ton of emphasis on just that number.
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I think more so what it represents is the fact that, yes, this is rare out of all the people who have diagnoses like schizophrenia, 200 is not a massive number.
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However, that is 200 individual tragic stories that could have been averted.
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Um, so to answer your question, Mindy, there isn't necessarily a way to say it is this likely.
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But what I want to stress is that while it is rare, it is something that that can happen if we allow it to happen.
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To uh what you mentioned about my parents, and just to give a little bit of context, um so both my parents were doctors, which I think on the surface and and certainly to some extent did um did help, um, one would think.
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And I believe both my parents were you know aware of what schizophrenia is, what schizophrenia can be.
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But the extent of the severity of Tim's schizophrenia, I think was incredibly difficult uh for them and for my mom to fully understand.
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And I don't, I mean, that could be for a number of different reasons, and I have I have spent a very long time trying to think about, you know, what was going on in my mom's head during that period.
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Um, but she was afraid of a number of different things.
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One of the things she was afraid of was um calling police to try to get Tim back to the hospital.
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Um, Tim, after his last hospitalization, was incredibly um, let's say, resolute about not wanting to go back, about not going back under any circumstances.
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So, were he to find his way back to the hospital, which as we all know, is certainly not a panacea for this sort of thing, it would probably have to have involved uh law enforcement in some way.
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And my mom, and and she had there's certainly reasons for her to have this fear, worried that if law enforcement were to get involved, if Tim were psychotic, it could end up in a struggle that would um that would kill him.
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Um my brother Tim at that time, he was you know 6'2, 270 pounds, incredibly physically strong.
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He was a New England champion wrestler in high school.
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He is a Division I wrestler.
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I mean, he was a physically imposing man.
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Um at the same time, while those fears, I think my mom had reason to have those fears.
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I don't think she fully realized how bad Tim could get in terms of violence towards others.
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For a very long time, I would say things like, I can't imagine what it would be like for a parent to have those fears about a child.
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And to some extent, I still can't fully um But one thing that has changed in terms of how I think about my mom in that period of time and how she saw what Tim was and what Tim was capable of during a psychotic episode.
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Um I I I somewhat recently became a parent myself.
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I was not a parent when I wrote this book, I was not a parent in the years after the book was released.
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And one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot in the six months since my daughter was born, and I know I don't have to tell you all this or your listeners this, but how deeply excruciating it.
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Be to see the child that you raised possibly be capable of what Tim Other being capable of.
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Um and you know, I I that has profoundly changed, I think, how I view what she did in those in those last months in particular, and has led to a different appreciation for, you know, in the past, I I've certainly been upset about, you know, why not call the police?
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Why not try something?
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:29.279
Why not do anything?
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.720
Um, but my God, that must be nearly impossible.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.079
You know, I I want to thank you for saying that.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.720
And first of all, congratulations on on becoming a parent.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.680
It's very exciting.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.319
And yes, you're right, it is excruciating.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:50.880
You have in front of you three moms who can answer any questions you might have.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:57.039
I think bedtime just happened right behind me, so I haven't heard any crying, so I think we're hopefully okay.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.759
But um, you know, we get it.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:22.240
And I will say that while the vile parasite may be rare, in my experience of just sitting and talking with families, having it be incredibly difficult to have your loved one live with you, even if they're not about to to do what your brother did.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.920
I meet so many families.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.079
It's like, well, the house is always messy, everything smells like cigarette smoke.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.799
I never know if he's gonna come in early or late.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.279
He brings these weird people around, you know, I'm worried that he's gonna burn the house down.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:47.279
Like there's all kinds of fear when a loved one with schizophrenia, especially untreated, is living with you, and it is very difficult for a parent to go, you can't live here anymore.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.119
Um and to enforce that.
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:53.759
So, you know, there is that.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:00.720
How are your uh how many years between you and Tim and his trip triplet people?
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.160
Just about four and a half.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.279
I'm four and a half years older.
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.240
Four and a half when you scroll their names on the driveway and your parents brought home your triplet.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:14.000
That's a whole book in itself, I would imagine, being an o you were an only child and suddenly you were one of four.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.119
This was a very abrupt shift to my mind, I'm sure.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:18.559
I guess.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.839
Um how are they where is Tim now?
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.440
Uh where's your dad, and where are your other two siblings?
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:32.079
So let me let me start with uh my other two siblings and my dad, and and then there's a lot to say about Tim.
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:38.720
Um so my other two siblings, uh Tim's triplet siblings, um my sister's social worker.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:46.720
Um, she I think very much has taken our experiences as a family and and used them in in her work.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.279
Um in sort of she runs therapy.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.000
She works a lot with actually younger, younger kids as well.
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.720
Um she's she's doing really great.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.200
Um my brother Chris, uh, he actually just had a had a kid as well.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.400
Um so we have these close-in-age cousins.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:20.559
Um and he he's had a number of of different jobs, but and and he, I mean, this is something I I talk about a little bit in the book, and and I think all families kind of live in the aftermath of these things differently, but but Chris has always been the steadyest, the sun, the the rock of our family.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.119
Um way more so than me, uh, just to be just to be clear about that.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.000
Um and he's he's doing really great as well.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.519
Um and my dad still lives uh in Connecticut, um quite close to where we grew up.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:51.920
He he he stayed in the house that we um we had lived in, and then the house that my mom died in for a number of years afterwards, um, which you know I always figured that was that was his decision to make, and who who am I to tell him how he should you know grieve and cope and and live.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.680
Um but he somewhat recently moved a couple towns over, um, and he's still working.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:04.480
Uh he's in healthcare now, he's not a practicing physician, but he he works for the company that administers Medicaid uh in Connecticut.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.200
Um and he's doing very well uh too.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:17.039
Um as far as Tim goes, um actually I I like to talk to Tim before I speak about him, and actually I called him about an hour and a half ago.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:22.079
Um and we he he and I we speak probably about once a week, usually.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:27.599
Um I live quite a bit farther away from Connecticut now, so I don't see him in person nearly as often.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:36.240
Um but we talk about once a week, and then every month he has sort of a treatment team meeting that I kind of zoom into and and we check in that way too.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:48.319
Um the last three years in particular for Tim have been the best three years he's had since since before this happened, since he was diagnosed.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.960
Um there are a lot of factors that contribute to that.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:27:02.960
I think one of them is that about three years ago, after the kind of you know medication roulette that I'm sure you all are familiar with, where something works and it doesn't, something doesn't work at all.
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.480
Um he wound up on a medication that has worked fantastically well for him.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:16.880
Um and I believe I think I think clausurale is the the I always get the generics and the sort of the brand names confused, but it is big fans of clausurel.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:18.160
Yeah, uh as am I.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.720
Um and and I think stunningly and importantly, uh so is Tim.
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:38.799
Um in that particular development, his being able to, and we can kind of get into anasygnosia a little bit and sort of what's insight and what's pragmatism, but in the last couple years in particular, he's been able to really recognize what has been possible for him on this medication.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.799
Um and what has been possible is is a number of things.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.680
He he just, or he's actually about two weeks away.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:55.440
Uh, we figured out a way for him to do some sort of kind of remote learning to finish his college degree, and he is two weeks away from finishing that degree, um, which is hugely meaningful for him.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.599
And I think it's you know just also representative of of kind of where he is now.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:07.279
Um and he's also reached the point, um, he's still on the same campus that he was uh that he was at when I wrote the book.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:19.119
But he's now at the stage where he is sort of supervised to go to sort of groups and various treatment facilities that are nearby, and then he has, you know, a little bit more freedom of movement, and it's a less restrictive environment.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:28.000
Um, and that's still a very long road for him, but there has been sort of meaningful, steady progress over a period of time.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:44.319
But your story is, I think, one of the reasons that a lot of us proselytize as much as we can about about plazepine because um it does cut into violence and suicide and and works better than any other drug for most people.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:52.079
So um, but that's a well-hidden secret, and they don't, it's just not publicized as much, I think, as it should be.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:06.880
Um so I wanted to ask you about uh the state of Connecticut and the outlier state of Connecticut and Massachusetts that still have no real civil commitment law.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.559
And so it's you know really hard.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.480
I live in Minnesota.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:22.160
So when um our son got sick, and I also was a state legislator, so I could I actually worked on our civil commitment law to make it better, and then about three or four years ago it got even better.
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:44.880
We have the best civil commitment law in the country, but um and you don't live in Connecticut, but is your family involved in any way to help with that advocacy, or don't you think given what you've told us about your parents, that they would have been able to use it even if it had been like the Minnesota law?
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.599
So in terms of sort of direct advocacy, not not recently.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:30:20.400
Um in Connecticut, there there was one facet than another, and this is definitely related to I think what you're talking about with civil commitment laws, but Connecticut also is not an uh AOT an assisted outpatient treatment state, um which, I mean, just briefly for people um who might not be familiar with that, um assisted outpatient treatment is it's it's in quite a few states now, but it's a mechanism by which someone can have sort of mandated court um court-enforced treatment.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:33.440
Um, so they are sort of required to show up for their treatment um by court order, uh, which I mean that is something that I think could have potentially been incredibly helpful for for my family and for Tim.
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:45.119
Um and it to some extent addresses the issue of what happens when someone's discharged from the hospital, and sure they have a plan to show up at a treatment facility in a couple days, but good luck getting them there.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.039
Um we know that well.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:47.519
Right.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.599
Yeah, and just FYI, uh AOT and civil commitment are the same thing.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.640
In order to get AOT, you have to be civil commitment.
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:58.160
That's the court process that begins AOT.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:00.720
And I am in Connecticut, by the way.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.599
So I I'm very I'm wondering if I've ever met your dad, actually.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.079
But um I'm very, very aware of that.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.839
So it it And you've been advocating, yay! Well, you know, in my spare time.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.400
But yes.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.079
So um, yeah, did you get to finish answering that question?
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:20.880
I'm sorry.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.680
I mean, that not a ton more to that.
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:30.799
Um recently I haven't been terribly involved directly um in advocacy is as far as Connecticut goes.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:41.200
Um, but I think to my mind, the the you know, process on the on the civil commitment law and the AOT would be one of the meaningful ways, um, one of the most meaningful ways.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:52.640
At the same time, I think with any of those sort of legal changes, while they're hugely, hugely important, and something I'm massively in favor of, I think many states and Connecticut is not unique in this.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:09.519
I think Connecticut might actually be in a slightly better position than some other states, the capacity to treat is sort of an underlying issue that I think even if we have laws that accurately represent the realities of these illnesses, if we don't have the capacity to treat people, you know, even just literal psychiatric beds.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.359
Um guilty in Minnesota.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:12.480
Yeah.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:25.519
And I think that, you know, and that also extends to things uh like insurance and who is insured and who can access insurance and what insurance companies do when it comes to sort of uh denying claims around mental health treatments.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:37.759
Those issues I think also need to be substantially addressed in order for laws like these civil commitment um changes in AOT to be as effective as they can be.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:52.160
I'm just wondering, I mean, we did an episode when I know I can hear in your voice how much you still miss your mom.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.319
So but we're her talking about your book.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.599
So it's totally fine.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:56.400
It's totally fine.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:56.960
It's okay.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.000
You know, um so the Rhiners.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:25.279
When the Rhiners uh uh were were killed by their son, who was still uh in like pretrial depositions or wherever he is, um his brother wrote a beautiful and devastating essay about losing both parents and how he and his sister feel.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:33.119
Um when uh uh the Reiner tragedy occurred, did you find a renewed interest in your book?
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.039
Did it bring up fresh things for you?
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.440
Is there anything you want to say about that?
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.079
So on both fronts, yes.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:50.079
Um, there were you know several journalists that that I think by virtue of having written this book, when you're looking for, okay, who has said something about this before, my my name comes up.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:34:00.799
And and initially, I you know, I think when this when the Reiner tragedy occurred, part of my initial sort of gut reaction was this, oh no, the media is going to be terrible.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:07.519
There's gonna be all this sensationalized coverage, there's gonna be all sorts of salacious stories and photos and all of that.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:11.039
Um, and there, you know, of course, there was some of that.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:30.079
Um, but I I did in the conversations I had with a couple journalists and in some of the things I read, I I did truly, I think, find more nuance and more a real desire to kind of understand how this happens and not just to sort of play up the really sensationalized details of the story.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:43.199
As far as kind of my personal oh no um when that occurred, I'm in touch with a number of people, and this was this is one of the I think most meaningful things that has happened because of the book.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:56.639
In the years since it was published, a number of people um have reached out to me, people who sadly can very directly relate um to what my family went through, people who have had parents killed by siblings of theirs predominantly.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:01.119
Um, some of these people I've been in touch with for years now, some I've become quite close with.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:11.760
And so when the Reiner tragedy occurred, a number of them who I was speaking with were also scared about the, you know, is this gonna start bringing some of those feelings rushing back to the surface?
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:20.800
Because, you know, we live in an age when people are gonna comment willy-nilly on things and everyone's gonna want to have their opinion heard about something like this.
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:38.639
And a story like what happened in my family, what happened in the Reiner family, what happened in so many families, really needs to be discussed with nuance and complexity, or else it can just be terribly, terribly painful to see different renderings of you know, this Greek tragedy that's sort of unfolding just for the entertainment of people in some ways.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:48.239
So I spoke with some of those people about, you know, kind of what we can do to sort of stay, stay grounded if that's even possible when these things get sort of kicked back up.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:49.360
Thank you.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.199
Mimi, anything um about a thousand things.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:36:13.840
Um You know, to me what was so interesting about this book is it brought to the forefront the terribly complex configuration of emotions in a family that having a member with schizophrenia creates.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:27.360
And um obviously yours was the worst case scenario, but for all of us, this issue of are we afraid of our own kid, are the siblings supposed to be afraid, who do you protect?
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:40.159
And then after the Reiner thing, I found myself terribly offended by all this loose talk about he's a monster and throw away the key and lock him up.
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:57.519
On the other hand, reading your book and seeing how you found it in yourself to operate from a place of love with your brother, and it was more difficult for your siblings, it was very different for them, and I'm certain different for your father.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.119
You know, it's so complex and it's so difficult to understand.
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.360
And I think that the issue here is not so much how can we make sure this never happens, because it's gonna happen.
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:08.480
It's a moment.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.639
You can do everything right, and it can still happen.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:16.320
The question becomes to me is again, how do we educate people?
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:24.239
How do we learn how to deal with these terribly complex emotions that come from this?
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:35.840
Where how do you continue to love a sibling who did this horrific thing and understand the magnitude of this illness and separate it from that person?
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:41.599
And I don't really know exactly what my question is here, but I think that you grappled with this a lot.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.760
Obviously, you did, and your siblings too.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.360
Have your siblings come around and all?
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.840
Do they have much of a relationship with him now?
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:52.400
So uh to talk about that briefly, um, yes and no.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.119
And and I one thing I I do try to make pretty clear is that I don't speak for them.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.599
I don't aim to represent kind of how they feel about him.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:17.199
And and it's always been, I think, what every member of my family has come to understand is that each of us individually has to figure out sort of what role Tim is going to play in our life or not play in our life, and and that's something that we respect and and don't try to sort of impose our feelings uh on each other in that regard.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:28.960
Um, but to to what you're saying there, Mimi, in terms of how I tried to maintain a relationship with Tim and why and why that felt so important to me.
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:43.599
Initially, I remember realizing almost immediately after it happened that if I if I let myself be angry with him, I'd be angry with him for the rest of my life and it would totally destroy me.
00:38:43.920 --> 00:39:02.239
Um I think initially I mean I used the word selfish here, it might be the wrong word, but initially reaching out to him and getting a relationship rekindled with him in some way was almost a selfish way for me to try to survive this because I knew you know I'd already lost my mom.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.320
I didn't want to lose him too.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:21.280
And I think over time I I started to, you know, believe that a relationship with him was possible, and especially learning more about his illness and about what he faced and about antisygnosia, all things that I was not very familiar with beforehand.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:28.719
I mean, I think one of the things that I've had to grapple with is that most of my knowledge came when it was too late.
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:43.119
Um and in maintaining this relationship with Tim and realizing that, you know, he's and this is true of all people like Tim that find themselves in these situations, they're not just going to disappear.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.760
It's not like this terrible thing happens and then that person just vanishes.
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:51.199
Um, you know, Tim was a very young man when this happened.
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:55.679
I mean, he still is a young man, he still does have years ahead of him.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:04.800
And I know, I am certain that my mom wants those years to be more than just the aftermath of this terrible tragedy.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:14.159
Um, and while that's not, you know, something necessarily I can be responsible for, and I don't necessarily think that I'm sort of carrying on her legacy, I wouldn't assume to do that.
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.119
It's important to me too that he becomes.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:20.960
Yeah, you are carrying on her legacy.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:22.960
Absolutely.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:41.360
Us moms, we're wired in a way, you know, we're wired in a way to normalize things and to make it okay and to never, ever, ever let go.
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:59.760
And um that's probably what propelled your mother into a position where she was so vulnerable because I don't even think that it's so much that we don't think they're capable of doing something awful, but that it doesn't matter to us.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:11.440
We're still, you know, we're obviously going to try and protect yourself, but you know, you still love, you know, the love is fierce in a way that that it just doesn't dissolve.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:32.719
And you see, that's a thing that I wonder about when I think of like the poor siblings of the Reiner kid, is um how do you go from somebody that you've loved, whether it was problematic or not, and they do this terrible thing, but they really do this terrible thing as a result of an illness that is not their fault.
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.039
So, what do you do with all that love?
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:46.239
Because the love doesn't, you know, in the same way that the person doesn't disappear from the planet of the earth, your love and your commitment and your lifelong connection to this person doesn't disappear.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:56.079
But you have to reach deep down and really find, you know, really reach through some complex emotions to get that.
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:57.360
I think.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:02.159
When I thought um Jim might kill me, I really thought it was a possibility.
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:04.800
Our daughter thought it was a possibility.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:09.360
And my biggest fear was that I would die and he wouldn't.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:10.960
And then he'd end up in prison.
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.880
And so exactly what happened to your family was my biggest fear.
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.719
So the fact that you are visiting him is huge.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.400
Thank you.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:21.599
I appreciate you saying that.
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:23.199
Is he currently in prison?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.599
Is this where he's earning all these college credits?
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:30.800
And so he is still um, so in sort of a forensic facility.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:35.840
Um, essentially, it's the it's on the old campus of the Connecticut State Hospital in Middletown.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:41.039
Um, there's a number of different facilities they have there at various levels of um security.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:46.320
He had been in sort of this maximum security facility for about six or seven years.
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:51.760
And then about three, four years ago, he transferred to a sort of like a medium security facility.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:57.440
Uh the way I kind of describe the difference is the maximum security facility really does feel like a prison.
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:04.800
The place he is now feels more like a locked hospital ward in a lot of ways, or comparable to what I've seen in those settings.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:14.880
And he's getting treatment there and an opportunity to, you know, I I have another podcast called Good at Heart Conversations with People Who Quietly Make the World Better.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.440
I do it with WSHU Public Radio.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:36.719
And uh, we just re-ran an episode this week uh that I did with the Yale Prison Education Initiative, where they go into several prisons, including Dan Barry, they just had a graduation, and the the inmates there need to apply and enroll and write essays and study without the internet.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:44.719
And, you know, according to the woman who started this, they they work as hard or harder than any college student.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:46.159
There's no free pass here.
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:57.440
And there uh one of the um graduates who's now out said to me, Well, I'm I'm just gonna do as much good in the community now as I used to do bad.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.679
And it just, you know, there there is Redemption and there is hope.
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:27.840
So I I want to ask you in the world though of shoulda, coulda, woulda, which doesn't do us any good, but might do some of the families listening some good, if you could have gone back in time and your family could have changed anything, and this is in the in the realm of advice for parents and families who are going through these fears right now.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:33.599
What do you wish you could, you or your parents had done differently?
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:38.960
That, you know, again, no guarantees, but what would you say to families now?
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:45.280
Well, while there are a number of sort of more systemic things I would love to, you know, kind of wave a magic wand at.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:45:14.320
The the thing that sticks out to me, and this is much more of an interpersonal way to sort of be with someone like my brother, someone who's in sort of active illness, because I didn't fully comprehend what schizophrenia can do, um, specifically um what anidomagnosia can can do in terms of you know blocking someone from realizing that they're ill, the way that I communicated with Tim in those years before our mom died was completely counterproductive.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:22.960
Um, what I often did in conversation with him is he would um, you know, he would share with me um elements of his psychosis.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:31.360
At first, it was just sort of paranoia, and then it was, you know, sort of the auditory hallucinations, and it got to the point where he would tell me about visual hallucinations.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:40.079
And there was this one conversation I had with him where he described in detail how he saw this sort of coin float in front of him.
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:47.440
And at that time, I didn't know how to have a conversation with him that didn't deny the reality of that experience for him.
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:50.960
And basically what I said to him was, like, you know, that's not real, right?
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.519
And that that was the worst possible thing I could have said to him.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:57.599
Um, I didn't listen, I didn't try to empathize with him.
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:12.559
Um I didn't, and then I mentioned this because it it the last book my mom was reading, and I know it was the last book she was reading because I found it with a bookmark in it um next to her bed.
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.320
And this is a book that I I imagine you may be familiar with, your listeners may be familiar with.
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.400
Actually, I have it next to me because it's the one that I recommend still to this day.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:21.199
Um, Dr.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.480
Xavier Amador, I'm not sick, I don't need help.
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.199
Um, that's great.
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:28.480
I'm we know him well.
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:37.920
Um but when I found that book, you know, week two weeks after my mom died, her her bookmark was I'll never forget this.
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:46.639
It was it was at the chat chapter break or part break that it says um staying on guard and next steps was the part that she stopped at.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:51.679
Um and I held on to that book for about a year before I could actually open it and read it.
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.079
And that was the first time I learned about anasygnosia.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:00.880
That was the first time I learned about how you can actually try to communicate in a meaningful way with someone who is experiencing psychosis.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:03.519
I wish I had known that.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:09.679
I wish that I could have had a conversation with Tim that didn't immediately distance us.
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.000
And while I don't know if this is naive, and then who knows what would have changed.
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:29.440
But I want to believe that if I was able to actually have meaningful conversations with him, we might have been able to make some progress toward, you know, even incremental change that would have prevented his illness from getting to the level of severity that it did.
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:34.239
Does he have awareness and acknowledgement of this event now?
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:37.199
Uh of the event, absolutely.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:45.920
Um, one thing I talk about in the book is in the year after, um, for a very long time, it did, and there are a number of reasons why this was probably the case.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:53.039
I mean, just the sheer trauma of it, for one, um, he he didn't recall what had occurred and he could only speak of it sort of obliquely.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.440
And it took a long time for us to actually be able to have a conversation about what had happened.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:01.280
Um, but now it is something that he can recall.
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:10.400
And it it the trickier question, I think, is and maybe what you're getting at too, Mimi, is this idea of does he have insight into his illness at this point, or is it just sort of pragmatism?
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:21.840
Um in the last couple years, you know, I I again I don't want to declare victory here because it's it's an up and down, up and down journey and it's not linear, and we all know that.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.679
Um, but in the last couple years, he's been able to speak about the illness as something that's his responsibility.
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.599
Um and I, you know, and I think I've framed it in this way before.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:36.079
It's like it's it's it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.599
It is something that you know you have to manage and maintain.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:43.519
If that's insight, great, it it might be.
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:49.199
I I hope it might become that over time, continually, with with this treatment and with the progress that we've been making.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.639
Um, but it's light years away from where he was.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:53.519
I love that.
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.440
It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility when they're ready to hear it.
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:08.320
Would it be fair to say that um so I hear it like learn all you can, learn how to communicate better, all of those things are helpful.
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:21.519
But I would add don't be afraid to call the police when you need to call the police, and we've had an episode on this, and ask for a crisis team instead of an officer to come.
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:35.039
Because it it doesn't, you know, again, knowing more about what to ask for when when you are calling the police can make it less scary for a parent to to be able to do that.
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:43.840
And fortunately where I live, the officers are crisis trained, and I've thank God so far never had a gun pulled on my son.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:48.480
He's been treated with respect and um and social workers.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:50.400
So shout out to your sister.
00:49:50.880 --> 00:50:01.440
So um, you know, with that, um I would add that it it's I've done it, and it's terrifying to call the police on your child, I'm not gonna lie.
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.760
On the other hand, there are many people to keep safe in my family.
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:15.440
And um so if you can learn to do it in a way that minimizes the potential harm, it makes it a little bit easier to make that phone call, I would say.
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:17.599
Anything else to add from anybody?
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:22.159
But this has been such a wonderful discussion, and I I want to make sure people know the name of the book.
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.760
It's called Everything Is Fine by Vince Granada.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:32.079
There are a few books with that title, but Mimi's holding it up and it's got, is that you and your brother on the beach?
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:35.760
Or is that so it's actually not I have no idea who those children are.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.199
It is actually kind of uncanny.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.280
They do resemble how we looked at that age.
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:44.639
I don't know how they did that, um, but it is that's not actually a photo of us.
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:52.079
Um but just to briefly say before we wrap up here, um, that thank you all for for having for having me and for having this difficult conversation.
00:50:52.159 --> 00:51:02.960
And I I really do hope that that from what we talked about today or something in my book, I've always said that you know, writing this book was tremendously difficult and and took a toll.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:17.280
Um but I have real peace in knowing that it's possible that something in the book or something that comes from one of these conversations could make a real difference for a family that that is in crisis or a family that has a loved one like Tim that they're trying to reach.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.000
Um, and that remains incredibly meaningful to me.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:22.159
All right, thank you so much.
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.039
And I say these are the hopes we had when we wrote our books.
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:32.400
Mindy's is Fix What You Can, Mimi's is He Came In With It, and mine is Ben Behind His Voices.
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:35.119
Vince, thank you so much for joining us here today.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:36.000
Thank you, Gil.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:42.559
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:51.119
You can help out the podcast and help others by sharing the podcast and by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts andor on YouTube.
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:59.519
And remember, you can reach us at mindygryling.com, Randy K dot com, or MiriamHeifenfeldman.com.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:06.719
But in the last couple years, he's been able to speak about the illness as something that's his responsibility.
00:00:06.959 --> 00:00:08.320
I think I've framed it in this way before.
00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:10.800
It's like it's it's it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.439
It is something that you know you have to manage and maintain.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.199
If that's insight, but it's light years away from where he was.
00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:33.759
In this episode, Vince Granada discusses his book, Everything Is Fine, which tells the story of his family's experience with schizophrenia following his younger brother's deteriorating mental health condition and tragic outcome.
00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:41.119
When his brother Tim killed their mother during a psychotic episode, what he's learned and what has happened since.
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Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia.
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Three moms in the trenches.
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From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide.
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This is Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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We are at episode 140 after about a month-long break.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:14.239
So tonight we're going to be talking with Vince Granata, who's author of a memoir called Everything Is Fine.
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And um in spite of what the memoir is about, and I will just say it's about the unthinkable schizophrenia and family tragedy.
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And Vince will be joining us in just a few minutes.
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If you're new to our podcast, we are three moms.
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We've each written a book, we're advocates, and we each have sons with schizophrenia.
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I want to thank our first four contributors to our podcast.
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We just started on BuzzSprout, and in the show notes, you can do this yourself.
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Um, allowing people to support us after 140 episodes.
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Um, I just want to thank Fran and Elizabeth and Gay and Teresa, who've each committed to a couple of dollars a month to help support the podcast.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:15.599
And what this money goes to is the production of the podcast and to uh, you know, help us spread the word so that maybe once in a while we can buy a Facebook ad so that we can actually get the word out to people.
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Um so I I want to thank you for that and for being uh one of our supporters of schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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So Mindy Gryling, Mimi Feldman, welcome back.
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I haven't seen you in a while.
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We don't have time for a big catch-up, but um I do want to share that we were all on an episode of OPLM, Other Parents Like Me.
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And that was so much fun.
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So we've seen each other.
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And I do want to let you know that OPLM wanted to make that available to people who are not their members.
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They are a membership, um it's a membership base with some free resources.
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So if you're interested in free resources, you can go to their website, just search other parents like me or OPLM.
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And but our episode is going to be made available to us with a few privacy things taken care of, like some of the live questions will be edited out.
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But most of what we were able to do in that well-attended session will be available, and we're gonna make it um an episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
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Right.
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So all the wisdom that we we spit out and all the crying we did, that's all gonna be available as um as a three moms episode.
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I also was delighted to be one of the keynote speakers at the eighth annual schizophrenia center symposium from Johns Hopkins.
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It was very, very interesting to hear about all the research that's being done about biomarkers and uh, you know, genetic causes for schizophrenia.
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And research takes a long time to be translated into new treatments, but at least that's happening.
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:15.199
So I think And let me just say for our listeners that maybe didn't plug into the social media around Randy's speech.
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He got uh tons of compliments and all kinds of excitement on social media for that speech.
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And people have asked if it was taped.
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Was it Randy?
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I wouldn't mind seeing it myself.
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Oh, thank you.
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Uh, you know, I believe it was taped, but I don't know how or if it's going to be made available.
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It might be just for their archives.
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This symposium is made free to family members at a family night the night before.
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We you can ask the doctors anything.
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And then all day long there were three research scientists and little old me.
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And it was full of psychiatrists and social workers, uh, not too many people who are diagnosed themselves with schizophrenia, maybe a couple, but a lot of family members there as well.
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And I was able to have lunch with some family members.
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And I gotta tell you, there are so many people living with what Vince is gonna talk about tonight with with fear of their loved one and love for their loved one.
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And just, you know, as as you probably know, and I shared with the audience over in Baltimore, my son is currently unhoused, and I can't reach him because I believe that he traded his cell phone for a fix.
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I'm not sure.
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I can't reach him, but I do have spies everywhere, and I'm reaching out to the police, and I'm reaching out to the social workers, and they're just keeping an eye out, and I have an idea of where his money is being spent, so I know where he's hanging out, and I'm trying to find things out.
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Um but I will say that um my biggest fear beyond my son being unhoused is if he uh were to ever be harmed to anybody else.
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Like that is a fear for me, even bigger than suicide.
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I'll just say that.
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Of course, I have hopes.
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We all have hopes, but I also have fears.
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So that's where we are.
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Um, Mindy, you've had a joyous trip to London with your granddaughter.
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So that was the best, best trip I probably have ever taken, just because I was with her and of course London.
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And then I will say today, I hate to bring this up after your situation uh with Ben.
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Um, but uh Jim is we've been there, so I know what what you're going through and I feel your pain exceedingly.
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But for the Grylings, today was a really happy day.
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And it's kind of like the revolving door, the ups and downs of schizophrenia.
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But we met today with Jim's doctor, uh Dr.
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Leiteman, a lot of people know that listen here.
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And for the first time in the five years that he's been treating Jim, he didn't have to change a single thing.
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He said, Jim is perfect.
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Well, of course, nobody's perfect, but his meds are perfect.
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And one thing for any psychiatrist who might be listening or listeners who would like to advocate with their psychiatrist, Dr.
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Laiteman said that the reason Jim is perfect is because he goes to conferences and is constantly learning.
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And the thing that he learned somewhere over in the Scandinavian countries and that has helped Jim the most is adding lithium to his phasepine, which otherwise he wouldn't have known about.
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So we should all always be learning, both the professionals and those of us who advocate with the professionals.
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So for us, uh, unlike you, today was a happy day.
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That's wonderful.
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And I never begrudge anybody's happiness.
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I love to hear it because stories like that give us hope, and we all we all need hope.
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So um I was Dr.
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Leitman was at the conference with me, so I had a chance to chat with him as well.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:01.360
All right.
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.199
Um, Mimi, I'm gonna let you bring it on home here and introduce our guest.
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And Vince, you can go ahead and um undo your camera unless you want to make a grand appearance.
00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:10.959
But Mimi, go ahead.
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Hi there.
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Okay, we have Vince Granata who wrote book that Randy.
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Do you have the book to hold up, Randy, or you don't?
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I do not have the book.
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There it is.
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Everything is fine.
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Everything is fine.
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And when I read this book, it just completely knocked me over.
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You know, I have to admit, I have become almost numb sometimes to reading another book about schizophrenia and a family story and all of that.
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But this one really touched me, and it you know, it's beautifully written, and it it touches on a subject that people don't want to talk about too much because it's terribly complicated, terribly painful, and everybody's biggest fear.
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So I felt we better be talking about it.
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So here we have Vince.
00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:10.960
And um why don't uh yeah, why don't we have Vince?
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:15.679
Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to write the book and all of that?
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:16.480
Oh, of course.
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Um, and first thank you all for for having me and and and for having this conversation uh with me.
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Um and and just to say off the top as well, I know Randy and Mimi both alluded to this, um, but my my book and and my family's experience does, I want to acknowledge, represent perhaps the the worst possible outcome um for a family that has a loved one uh living with schizophrenia.
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Um and I don't intend in talking about what happened in my family, and I didn't intend in writing the book to just sort of stoke fear or to make people deeply scared.
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Um I intend the opposite.
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And I hope, and it's always been my belief, that by talking as clearly and as openly as possible about how terrible things come to pass, that we can understand how and why those things happened and thereby perhaps be less afraid and thereby perhaps prevent them from happening in the future.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.840
Um, but just to give you a little bit of background about my book and my family.
00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:22.799
So about 15 years ago now, uh one of my siblings, I have three little siblings who happen to be triplets.
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One of the three of them started struggling with uh what we didn't at the time know was schizophrenia.
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There were multiple diagnoses over the course of several years.
00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.080
But over several years, um, his condition deteriorated.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:46.559
He went through a number of different treatment plans, a number of different psychiatrists, combative hospital stays, a story that I imagine is familiar to many of you.
00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:56.639
In the summer of 2014, uh so almost 12 years ago now, uh, he was living at home uh with our mom, and he was untreated at that time.
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He had been out of the hospital for over four months, and during a psychotic episode, he attacked and he killed her.
00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.639
When this happened, uh, I was not living at home.
00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.120
I was 27 at the time.
00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:20.720
Um and about a year after our mom died, uh, I started writing my book, what would eventually five or six years later uh be published as Everything Is Fine.
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Um and I started writing, I know sometimes there's you know a real big sort of why behind um, you know, why someone wants to write a book, why someone wants to take on that kind of endeavor.
00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:39.519
Uh, but for me initially it was more reflexive, um, just because writing has always been a big part of my life.
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Writing has been my best and frankly, sometimes only tool for understanding um what's going on with me, what's going on in the world.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.600
So when I started writing, it was largely just because I didn't know what else I could do.
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And as I kept writing, as I kept sort of researching um some of the background about schizophrenia, about mental health treatment, about all the gaps in that treatment, it became very apparent to me that there was so much that I didn't know.
00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:14.000
And I started thinking about what kind of book could I have read before my mom died that would have made a difference?
00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:26.879
And that became the big why going forward, trying to think about if I, you know, magically could have this book five years in the past, what kind of book would have actually made a difference for me and my family.
00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:28.799
Can you say more about that?
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:40.080
Like what it would have made a difference how in coping with it and preventing it, what so this is somewhat illogical, I guess, but both would be my answer to that.
00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:51.279
I think most primarily I was trying to think about okay, what facets of Tim's illness did we, did I not really understand?
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:59.840
And what aspects of that illness could I have had a better understanding of that would have actually led to Tim perhaps getting meaningful treatment.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:06.879
Um, and then additionally, I, you know, in that year or so after my mom died, it became very important to me.
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:17.679
And as I was writing, this became more apparent too, that maintaining and building a new relationship with Tim going forward in the aftermath was something that was deeply important to me.
00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:27.360
And trying to think about, okay, in writing this book, how am I also thinking about the ways that he and I can remain family and he can remain someone that I'm close with?
00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:44.080
So um, you know, it's always one of my pet peeves that the mental health advocacy community often fairly universally wants to sweep the possibility of violence under the rug.
00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:57.120
And anytime anybody mentions it, and I should add, Vince, you know, my son, when he would the first few years when he was sick, he had delusions that he should kill me because I was the devil.
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:01.039
So your story could have been my story.
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:17.440
But anytime anybody talked about that, people rushed to kind of shush you because that would stigmatize everybody if anyone thought anyone with schizophrenia would be capable of murder.
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:39.120
And I always maintain, and I think you did a wonderful job in your book, explaining how this could happen to anyone, and that we do need to talk about it because the more it happens, because people aren't aware it could happen or don't think it could happen, uh, the more that creates stigma, not the talking.
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.679
So could you comment on that?
00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.720
Yeah, and I think Mindy, that that that last piece, right?
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:56.240
I think I'm I'm very sensitive to issues around stigma and how certain ways of talking about mental illness can increase stigma that makes it very difficult for people living with these illnesses to go and seek treatment.
00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:10.960
But what you said about if we don't talk about these rare instances of violence, and it it is important to say that they are rare, they do occur, but they are rare, if we don't talk about them in as clearest terms as possible, then we don't understand how these things came to pass.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.639
And I I've always believed that the things we fear are the things that we don't understand.
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:35.360
So by talking as clearly as I can and by writing, hopefully in a way that was transparent and as honest as I could about how Tim came to a point where his delusions led him to this terrible act of violence, I hope that that actually is destigmatizing, that we can see that there wasn't anything inevitable about what happened with Tim.
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:40.320
It wasn't he didn't kill our mom just because he had this diagnosis.
00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.799
There were a number of failed things that happened along the way.
00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:48.639
There were a number of specific criteria that are particular to Tim that probably contributed as well.
00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.799
And to my mind, having that kind of conversation can be destigmatizing.
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.919
So it's complicated and it's difficult, and I certainly understand that.
00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:05.679
And I want to be sensitive to all ways that we can potentially stigmatize certain mental illnesses, but I do very much believe that this conversation is important too.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:13.600
Do you think your parents, who were both doctors, really understood the prevalence of this happening?
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.360
I didn't know the word until I read it in your book, Paraside.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.360
And you talk about how often it happens.
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:28.399
Maybe you could share with our listeners and also explain do you think your parents really thought this was possible or not?
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:38.879
So let me let me start a little bit more with the parasite um piece of it, which was um sadly a word I didn't know until I had to know um what that word was.
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:45.519
Um I heard in the aftermath of my mom's death, I think I saw the word matricide on every single news story.
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:54.879
And that was a word I had heard before, but it's one of those words that you think is sort of resigned to literature, not to not to real life, until you see it in that particular way.
00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:09.279
So I want to be very clear in saying that there isn't going to be an easy way to say that like X percentage of people with a certain diagnosis, like that is impossible to have that level of certainty.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:42.000
But one thing I did do in my book, and one thing that I hope was helpful in kind of conceptualizing both that this is rare, but also that it does occur, uh is I tried to look at as much data as I could from the year before my mom died, so 2013, to try to get a reasonable, as accurate as I could estimate for okay, how often, you know, in the US in the year 2013, did a son or daughter, much more commonly son, um, kill a parent during a psychotic episode.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:58.240
To do that, I didn't show all of my work in the book, um, but it's the short version is that it involved things like supplemental homicide reports that the FBI keeps, where they kind of classify different um, they classify homicide in different ways.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:09.759
And the number of sort of, you know, sibl or son or daughter killing a parent was it was somewhere over 300 um in terms of the number that occurred in the country that year.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:25.279
From that number, I then went to a number of different studies, some done by the Treatment Advocacy Center, some done by experts on parasite all over the world, to try to get a sense of you know how many of these perhaps were um during a psychotic episode.
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:29.279
And the best I could do in terms of like a ballpark number was 200.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:41.599
Um, that there were 200 instances in 2013, uh, to the best of my knowledge, where there was a son or daughter who was in the grip of a psychotic episode who killed a parent.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.079
I hesitate to sort of put a ton of emphasis on just that number.
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:56.319
I think more so what it represents is the fact that, yes, this is rare out of all the people who have diagnoses like schizophrenia, 200 is not a massive number.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:02.160
However, that is 200 individual tragic stories that could have been averted.
00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:08.079
Um, so to answer your question, Mindy, there isn't necessarily a way to say it is this likely.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:15.039
But what I want to stress is that while it is rare, it is something that that can happen if we allow it to happen.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:30.640
To uh what you mentioned about my parents, and just to give a little bit of context, um so both my parents were doctors, which I think on the surface and and certainly to some extent did um did help, um, one would think.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:37.359
And I believe both my parents were you know aware of what schizophrenia is, what schizophrenia can be.
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:46.960
But the extent of the severity of Tim's schizophrenia, I think was incredibly difficult uh for them and for my mom to fully understand.
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:58.319
And I don't, I mean, that could be for a number of different reasons, and I have I have spent a very long time trying to think about, you know, what was going on in my mom's head during that period.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.799
Um, but she was afraid of a number of different things.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:10.160
One of the things she was afraid of was um calling police to try to get Tim back to the hospital.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:21.519
Um, Tim, after his last hospitalization, was incredibly um, let's say, resolute about not wanting to go back, about not going back under any circumstances.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:32.559
So, were he to find his way back to the hospital, which as we all know, is certainly not a panacea for this sort of thing, it would probably have to have involved uh law enforcement in some way.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:44.640
And my mom, and and she had there's certainly reasons for her to have this fear, worried that if law enforcement were to get involved, if Tim were psychotic, it could end up in a struggle that would um that would kill him.
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:51.599
Um my brother Tim at that time, he was you know 6'2, 270 pounds, incredibly physically strong.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.119
He was a New England champion wrestler in high school.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:56.319
He is a Division I wrestler.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.640
I mean, he was a physically imposing man.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:06.400
Um at the same time, while those fears, I think my mom had reason to have those fears.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:15.359
I don't think she fully realized how bad Tim could get in terms of violence towards others.
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:24.720
For a very long time, I would say things like, I can't imagine what it would be like for a parent to have those fears about a child.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:40.960
And to some extent, I still can't fully um But one thing that has changed in terms of how I think about my mom in that period of time and how she saw what Tim was and what Tim was capable of during a psychotic episode.
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.759
Um I I I somewhat recently became a parent myself.
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.920
I was not a parent when I wrote this book, I was not a parent in the years after the book was released.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:59.680
And one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot in the six months since my daughter was born, and I know I don't have to tell you all this or your listeners this, but how deeply excruciating it.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:06.400
Be to see the child that you raised possibly be capable of what Tim Other being capable of.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:26.480
Um and you know, I I that has profoundly changed, I think, how I view what she did in those in those last months in particular, and has led to a different appreciation for, you know, in the past, I I've certainly been upset about, you know, why not call the police?
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.440
Why not try something?
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:29.279
Why not do anything?
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.720
Um, but my God, that must be nearly impossible.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.079
You know, I I want to thank you for saying that.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.720
And first of all, congratulations on on becoming a parent.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:43.680
It's very exciting.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.319
And yes, you're right, it is excruciating.
00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:50.880
You have in front of you three moms who can answer any questions you might have.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:57.039
I think bedtime just happened right behind me, so I haven't heard any crying, so I think we're hopefully okay.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.759
But um, you know, we get it.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:22.240
And I will say that while the vile parasite may be rare, in my experience of just sitting and talking with families, having it be incredibly difficult to have your loved one live with you, even if they're not about to to do what your brother did.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.920
I meet so many families.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:28.079
It's like, well, the house is always messy, everything smells like cigarette smoke.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.799
I never know if he's gonna come in early or late.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.279
He brings these weird people around, you know, I'm worried that he's gonna burn the house down.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:47.279
Like there's all kinds of fear when a loved one with schizophrenia, especially untreated, is living with you, and it is very difficult for a parent to go, you can't live here anymore.
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.119
Um and to enforce that.
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:53.759
So, you know, there is that.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:00.720
How are your uh how many years between you and Tim and his trip triplet people?
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.160
Just about four and a half.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.279
I'm four and a half years older.
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.240
Four and a half when you scroll their names on the driveway and your parents brought home your triplet.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:14.000
That's a whole book in itself, I would imagine, being an o you were an only child and suddenly you were one of four.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.119
This was a very abrupt shift to my mind, I'm sure.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:18.559
I guess.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.839
Um how are they where is Tim now?
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.440
Uh where's your dad, and where are your other two siblings?
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:32.079
So let me let me start with uh my other two siblings and my dad, and and then there's a lot to say about Tim.
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:38.720
Um so my other two siblings, uh Tim's triplet siblings, um my sister's social worker.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:46.720
Um, she I think very much has taken our experiences as a family and and used them in in her work.
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.279
Um in sort of she runs therapy.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.000
She works a lot with actually younger, younger kids as well.
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.720
Um she's she's doing really great.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.200
Um my brother Chris, uh, he actually just had a had a kid as well.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.400
Um so we have these close-in-age cousins.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:20.559
Um and he he's had a number of of different jobs, but and and he, I mean, this is something I I talk about a little bit in the book, and and I think all families kind of live in the aftermath of these things differently, but but Chris has always been the steadyest, the sun, the the rock of our family.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.119
Um way more so than me, uh, just to be just to be clear about that.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.000
Um and he's he's doing really great as well.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.519
Um and my dad still lives uh in Connecticut, um quite close to where we grew up.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:51.920
He he he stayed in the house that we um we had lived in, and then the house that my mom died in for a number of years afterwards, um, which you know I always figured that was that was his decision to make, and who who am I to tell him how he should you know grieve and cope and and live.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.680
Um but he somewhat recently moved a couple towns over, um, and he's still working.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:04.480
Uh he's in healthcare now, he's not a practicing physician, but he he works for the company that administers Medicaid uh in Connecticut.
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.200
Um and he's doing very well uh too.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:17.039
Um as far as Tim goes, um actually I I like to talk to Tim before I speak about him, and actually I called him about an hour and a half ago.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:22.079
Um and we he he and I we speak probably about once a week, usually.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:27.599
Um I live quite a bit farther away from Connecticut now, so I don't see him in person nearly as often.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:36.240
Um but we talk about once a week, and then every month he has sort of a treatment team meeting that I kind of zoom into and and we check in that way too.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:48.319
Um the last three years in particular for Tim have been the best three years he's had since since before this happened, since he was diagnosed.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.960
Um there are a lot of factors that contribute to that.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:27:02.960
I think one of them is that about three years ago, after the kind of you know medication roulette that I'm sure you all are familiar with, where something works and it doesn't, something doesn't work at all.
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.480
Um he wound up on a medication that has worked fantastically well for him.
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:16.880
Um and I believe I think I think clausurale is the the I always get the generics and the sort of the brand names confused, but it is big fans of clausurel.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:18.160
Yeah, uh as am I.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.720
Um and and I think stunningly and importantly, uh so is Tim.
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:38.799
Um in that particular development, his being able to, and we can kind of get into anasygnosia a little bit and sort of what's insight and what's pragmatism, but in the last couple years in particular, he's been able to really recognize what has been possible for him on this medication.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.799
Um and what has been possible is is a number of things.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.680
He he just, or he's actually about two weeks away.
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:55.440
Uh, we figured out a way for him to do some sort of kind of remote learning to finish his college degree, and he is two weeks away from finishing that degree, um, which is hugely meaningful for him.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:59.599
And I think it's you know just also representative of of kind of where he is now.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:07.279
Um and he's also reached the point, um, he's still on the same campus that he was uh that he was at when I wrote the book.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:19.119
But he's now at the stage where he is sort of supervised to go to sort of groups and various treatment facilities that are nearby, and then he has, you know, a little bit more freedom of movement, and it's a less restrictive environment.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:28.000
Um, and that's still a very long road for him, but there has been sort of meaningful, steady progress over a period of time.
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:44.319
But your story is, I think, one of the reasons that a lot of us proselytize as much as we can about about plazepine because um it does cut into violence and suicide and and works better than any other drug for most people.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:52.079
So um, but that's a well-hidden secret, and they don't, it's just not publicized as much, I think, as it should be.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:29:06.880
Um so I wanted to ask you about uh the state of Connecticut and the outlier state of Connecticut and Massachusetts that still have no real civil commitment law.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:08.559
And so it's you know really hard.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.480
I live in Minnesota.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:22.160
So when um our son got sick, and I also was a state legislator, so I could I actually worked on our civil commitment law to make it better, and then about three or four years ago it got even better.
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:44.880
We have the best civil commitment law in the country, but um and you don't live in Connecticut, but is your family involved in any way to help with that advocacy, or don't you think given what you've told us about your parents, that they would have been able to use it even if it had been like the Minnesota law?
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.599
So in terms of sort of direct advocacy, not not recently.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:30:20.400
Um in Connecticut, there there was one facet than another, and this is definitely related to I think what you're talking about with civil commitment laws, but Connecticut also is not an uh AOT an assisted outpatient treatment state, um which, I mean, just briefly for people um who might not be familiar with that, um assisted outpatient treatment is it's it's in quite a few states now, but it's a mechanism by which someone can have sort of mandated court um court-enforced treatment.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:33.440
Um, so they are sort of required to show up for their treatment um by court order, uh, which I mean that is something that I think could have potentially been incredibly helpful for for my family and for Tim.
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:45.119
Um and it to some extent addresses the issue of what happens when someone's discharged from the hospital, and sure they have a plan to show up at a treatment facility in a couple days, but good luck getting them there.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.039
Um we know that well.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:47.519
Right.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.599
Yeah, and just FYI, uh AOT and civil commitment are the same thing.
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.640
In order to get AOT, you have to be civil commitment.
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:58.160
That's the court process that begins AOT.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:00.720
And I am in Connecticut, by the way.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.599
So I I'm very I'm wondering if I've ever met your dad, actually.
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:08.079
But um I'm very, very aware of that.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:13.839
So it it And you've been advocating, yay! Well, you know, in my spare time.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:16.400
But yes.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.079
So um, yeah, did you get to finish answering that question?
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:20.880
I'm sorry.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.680
I mean, that not a ton more to that.
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:30.799
Um recently I haven't been terribly involved directly um in advocacy is as far as Connecticut goes.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:41.200
Um, but I think to my mind, the the you know, process on the on the civil commitment law and the AOT would be one of the meaningful ways, um, one of the most meaningful ways.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:52.640
At the same time, I think with any of those sort of legal changes, while they're hugely, hugely important, and something I'm massively in favor of, I think many states and Connecticut is not unique in this.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:09.519
I think Connecticut might actually be in a slightly better position than some other states, the capacity to treat is sort of an underlying issue that I think even if we have laws that accurately represent the realities of these illnesses, if we don't have the capacity to treat people, you know, even just literal psychiatric beds.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:11.359
Um guilty in Minnesota.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:12.480
Yeah.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:25.519
And I think that, you know, and that also extends to things uh like insurance and who is insured and who can access insurance and what insurance companies do when it comes to sort of uh denying claims around mental health treatments.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:37.759
Those issues I think also need to be substantially addressed in order for laws like these civil commitment um changes in AOT to be as effective as they can be.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:52.160
I'm just wondering, I mean, we did an episode when I know I can hear in your voice how much you still miss your mom.
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.319
So but we're her talking about your book.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:55.599
So it's totally fine.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:56.400
It's totally fine.
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:56.960
It's okay.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.000
You know, um so the Rhiners.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:25.279
When the Rhiners uh uh were were killed by their son, who was still uh in like pretrial depositions or wherever he is, um his brother wrote a beautiful and devastating essay about losing both parents and how he and his sister feel.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:33.119
Um when uh uh the Reiner tragedy occurred, did you find a renewed interest in your book?
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.039
Did it bring up fresh things for you?
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.440
Is there anything you want to say about that?
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:40.079
So on both fronts, yes.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:50.079
Um, there were you know several journalists that that I think by virtue of having written this book, when you're looking for, okay, who has said something about this before, my my name comes up.
00:33:50.240 --> 00:34:00.799
And and initially, I you know, I think when this when the Reiner tragedy occurred, part of my initial sort of gut reaction was this, oh no, the media is going to be terrible.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:07.519
There's gonna be all this sensationalized coverage, there's gonna be all sorts of salacious stories and photos and all of that.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:11.039
Um, and there, you know, of course, there was some of that.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:30.079
Um, but I I did in the conversations I had with a couple journalists and in some of the things I read, I I did truly, I think, find more nuance and more a real desire to kind of understand how this happens and not just to sort of play up the really sensationalized details of the story.
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:43.199
As far as kind of my personal oh no um when that occurred, I'm in touch with a number of people, and this was this is one of the I think most meaningful things that has happened because of the book.
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:56.639
In the years since it was published, a number of people um have reached out to me, people who sadly can very directly relate um to what my family went through, people who have had parents killed by siblings of theirs predominantly.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:01.119
Um, some of these people I've been in touch with for years now, some I've become quite close with.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:11.760
And so when the Reiner tragedy occurred, a number of them who I was speaking with were also scared about the, you know, is this gonna start bringing some of those feelings rushing back to the surface?
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:20.800
Because, you know, we live in an age when people are gonna comment willy-nilly on things and everyone's gonna want to have their opinion heard about something like this.
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:38.639
And a story like what happened in my family, what happened in the Reiner family, what happened in so many families, really needs to be discussed with nuance and complexity, or else it can just be terribly, terribly painful to see different renderings of you know, this Greek tragedy that's sort of unfolding just for the entertainment of people in some ways.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:48.239
So I spoke with some of those people about, you know, kind of what we can do to sort of stay, stay grounded if that's even possible when these things get sort of kicked back up.
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:49.360
Thank you.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.199
Mimi, anything um about a thousand things.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:36:13.840
Um You know, to me what was so interesting about this book is it brought to the forefront the terribly complex configuration of emotions in a family that having a member with schizophrenia creates.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:27.360
And um obviously yours was the worst case scenario, but for all of us, this issue of are we afraid of our own kid, are the siblings supposed to be afraid, who do you protect?
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:40.159
And then after the Reiner thing, I found myself terribly offended by all this loose talk about he's a monster and throw away the key and lock him up.
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:57.519
On the other hand, reading your book and seeing how you found it in yourself to operate from a place of love with your brother, and it was more difficult for your siblings, it was very different for them, and I'm certain different for your father.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:01.119
You know, it's so complex and it's so difficult to understand.
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.360
And I think that the issue here is not so much how can we make sure this never happens, because it's gonna happen.
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:08.480
It's a moment.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.639
You can do everything right, and it can still happen.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:16.320
The question becomes to me is again, how do we educate people?
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:24.239
How do we learn how to deal with these terribly complex emotions that come from this?
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:35.840
Where how do you continue to love a sibling who did this horrific thing and understand the magnitude of this illness and separate it from that person?
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:41.599
And I don't really know exactly what my question is here, but I think that you grappled with this a lot.
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.760
Obviously, you did, and your siblings too.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.360
Have your siblings come around and all?
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:47.840
Do they have much of a relationship with him now?
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:52.400
So uh to talk about that briefly, um, yes and no.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:57.119
And and I one thing I I do try to make pretty clear is that I don't speak for them.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.599
I don't aim to represent kind of how they feel about him.
00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:17.199
And and it's always been, I think, what every member of my family has come to understand is that each of us individually has to figure out sort of what role Tim is going to play in our life or not play in our life, and and that's something that we respect and and don't try to sort of impose our feelings uh on each other in that regard.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:28.960
Um, but to to what you're saying there, Mimi, in terms of how I tried to maintain a relationship with Tim and why and why that felt so important to me.
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:43.599
Initially, I remember realizing almost immediately after it happened that if I if I let myself be angry with him, I'd be angry with him for the rest of my life and it would totally destroy me.
00:38:43.920 --> 00:39:02.239
Um I think initially I mean I used the word selfish here, it might be the wrong word, but initially reaching out to him and getting a relationship rekindled with him in some way was almost a selfish way for me to try to survive this because I knew you know I'd already lost my mom.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.320
I didn't want to lose him too.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:21.280
And I think over time I I started to, you know, believe that a relationship with him was possible, and especially learning more about his illness and about what he faced and about antisygnosia, all things that I was not very familiar with beforehand.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:28.719
I mean, I think one of the things that I've had to grapple with is that most of my knowledge came when it was too late.
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:43.119
Um and in maintaining this relationship with Tim and realizing that, you know, he's and this is true of all people like Tim that find themselves in these situations, they're not just going to disappear.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.760
It's not like this terrible thing happens and then that person just vanishes.
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:51.199
Um, you know, Tim was a very young man when this happened.
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:55.679
I mean, he still is a young man, he still does have years ahead of him.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:04.800
And I know, I am certain that my mom wants those years to be more than just the aftermath of this terrible tragedy.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:14.159
Um, and while that's not, you know, something necessarily I can be responsible for, and I don't necessarily think that I'm sort of carrying on her legacy, I wouldn't assume to do that.
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.119
It's important to me too that he becomes.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:20.960
Yeah, you are carrying on her legacy.
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:22.960
Absolutely.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:41.360
Us moms, we're wired in a way, you know, we're wired in a way to normalize things and to make it okay and to never, ever, ever let go.
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:59.760
And um that's probably what propelled your mother into a position where she was so vulnerable because I don't even think that it's so much that we don't think they're capable of doing something awful, but that it doesn't matter to us.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:11.440
We're still, you know, we're obviously going to try and protect yourself, but you know, you still love, you know, the love is fierce in a way that that it just doesn't dissolve.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:32.719
And you see, that's a thing that I wonder about when I think of like the poor siblings of the Reiner kid, is um how do you go from somebody that you've loved, whether it was problematic or not, and they do this terrible thing, but they really do this terrible thing as a result of an illness that is not their fault.
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.039
So, what do you do with all that love?
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:46.239
Because the love doesn't, you know, in the same way that the person doesn't disappear from the planet of the earth, your love and your commitment and your lifelong connection to this person doesn't disappear.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:56.079
But you have to reach deep down and really find, you know, really reach through some complex emotions to get that.
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:57.360
I think.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:02.159
When I thought um Jim might kill me, I really thought it was a possibility.
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:04.800
Our daughter thought it was a possibility.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:09.360
And my biggest fear was that I would die and he wouldn't.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:10.960
And then he'd end up in prison.
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.880
And so exactly what happened to your family was my biggest fear.
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.719
So the fact that you are visiting him is huge.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.400
Thank you.
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:21.599
I appreciate you saying that.
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:23.199
Is he currently in prison?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.599
Is this where he's earning all these college credits?
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:30.800
And so he is still um, so in sort of a forensic facility.
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:35.840
Um, essentially, it's the it's on the old campus of the Connecticut State Hospital in Middletown.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:41.039
Um, there's a number of different facilities they have there at various levels of um security.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:46.320
He had been in sort of this maximum security facility for about six or seven years.
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:51.760
And then about three, four years ago, he transferred to a sort of like a medium security facility.
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:57.440
Uh the way I kind of describe the difference is the maximum security facility really does feel like a prison.
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:04.800
The place he is now feels more like a locked hospital ward in a lot of ways, or comparable to what I've seen in those settings.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:14.880
And he's getting treatment there and an opportunity to, you know, I I have another podcast called Good at Heart Conversations with People Who Quietly Make the World Better.
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.440
I do it with WSHU Public Radio.
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:36.719
And uh, we just re-ran an episode this week uh that I did with the Yale Prison Education Initiative, where they go into several prisons, including Dan Barry, they just had a graduation, and the the inmates there need to apply and enroll and write essays and study without the internet.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:44.719
And, you know, according to the woman who started this, they they work as hard or harder than any college student.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:46.159
There's no free pass here.
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:57.440
And there uh one of the um graduates who's now out said to me, Well, I'm I'm just gonna do as much good in the community now as I used to do bad.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.679
And it just, you know, there there is Redemption and there is hope.
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:27.840
So I I want to ask you in the world though of shoulda, coulda, woulda, which doesn't do us any good, but might do some of the families listening some good, if you could have gone back in time and your family could have changed anything, and this is in the in the realm of advice for parents and families who are going through these fears right now.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:33.599
What do you wish you could, you or your parents had done differently?
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:38.960
That, you know, again, no guarantees, but what would you say to families now?
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:45.280
Well, while there are a number of sort of more systemic things I would love to, you know, kind of wave a magic wand at.
00:44:45.440 --> 00:45:14.320
The the thing that sticks out to me, and this is much more of an interpersonal way to sort of be with someone like my brother, someone who's in sort of active illness, because I didn't fully comprehend what schizophrenia can do, um, specifically um what anidomagnosia can can do in terms of you know blocking someone from realizing that they're ill, the way that I communicated with Tim in those years before our mom died was completely counterproductive.
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:22.960
Um, what I often did in conversation with him is he would um, you know, he would share with me um elements of his psychosis.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:31.360
At first, it was just sort of paranoia, and then it was, you know, sort of the auditory hallucinations, and it got to the point where he would tell me about visual hallucinations.
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:40.079
And there was this one conversation I had with him where he described in detail how he saw this sort of coin float in front of him.
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:47.440
And at that time, I didn't know how to have a conversation with him that didn't deny the reality of that experience for him.
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:50.960
And basically what I said to him was, like, you know, that's not real, right?
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.519
And that that was the worst possible thing I could have said to him.
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:57.599
Um, I didn't listen, I didn't try to empathize with him.
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:12.559
Um I didn't, and then I mentioned this because it it the last book my mom was reading, and I know it was the last book she was reading because I found it with a bookmark in it um next to her bed.
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.320
And this is a book that I I imagine you may be familiar with, your listeners may be familiar with.
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.400
Actually, I have it next to me because it's the one that I recommend still to this day.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:21.199
Um, Dr.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.480
Xavier Amador, I'm not sick, I don't need help.
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.199
Um, that's great.
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:28.480
I'm we know him well.
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:37.920
Um but when I found that book, you know, week two weeks after my mom died, her her bookmark was I'll never forget this.
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:46.639
It was it was at the chat chapter break or part break that it says um staying on guard and next steps was the part that she stopped at.
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:51.679
Um and I held on to that book for about a year before I could actually open it and read it.
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.079
And that was the first time I learned about anasygnosia.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:00.880
That was the first time I learned about how you can actually try to communicate in a meaningful way with someone who is experiencing psychosis.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:03.519
I wish I had known that.
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:09.679
I wish that I could have had a conversation with Tim that didn't immediately distance us.
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:16.000
And while I don't know if this is naive, and then who knows what would have changed.
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:29.440
But I want to believe that if I was able to actually have meaningful conversations with him, we might have been able to make some progress toward, you know, even incremental change that would have prevented his illness from getting to the level of severity that it did.
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:34.239
Does he have awareness and acknowledgement of this event now?
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:37.199
Uh of the event, absolutely.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:45.920
Um, one thing I talk about in the book is in the year after, um, for a very long time, it did, and there are a number of reasons why this was probably the case.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:53.039
I mean, just the sheer trauma of it, for one, um, he he didn't recall what had occurred and he could only speak of it sort of obliquely.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.440
And it took a long time for us to actually be able to have a conversation about what had happened.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:01.280
Um, but now it is something that he can recall.
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:10.400
And it it the trickier question, I think, is and maybe what you're getting at too, Mimi, is this idea of does he have insight into his illness at this point, or is it just sort of pragmatism?
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:21.840
Um in the last couple years, you know, I I again I don't want to declare victory here because it's it's an up and down, up and down journey and it's not linear, and we all know that.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.679
Um, but in the last couple years, he's been able to speak about the illness as something that's his responsibility.
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.599
Um and I, you know, and I think I've framed it in this way before.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:36.079
It's like it's it's it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.599
It is something that you know you have to manage and maintain.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:43.519
If that's insight, great, it it might be.
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:49.199
I I hope it might become that over time, continually, with with this treatment and with the progress that we've been making.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.639
Um, but it's light years away from where he was.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:53.519
I love that.
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.440
It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility when they're ready to hear it.
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:08.320
Would it be fair to say that um so I hear it like learn all you can, learn how to communicate better, all of those things are helpful.
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:21.519
But I would add don't be afraid to call the police when you need to call the police, and we've had an episode on this, and ask for a crisis team instead of an officer to come.
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:35.039
Because it it doesn't, you know, again, knowing more about what to ask for when when you are calling the police can make it less scary for a parent to to be able to do that.
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:43.840
And fortunately where I live, the officers are crisis trained, and I've thank God so far never had a gun pulled on my son.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:48.480
He's been treated with respect and um and social workers.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:50.400
So shout out to your sister.
00:49:50.880 --> 00:50:01.440
So um, you know, with that, um I would add that it it's I've done it, and it's terrifying to call the police on your child, I'm not gonna lie.
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.760
On the other hand, there are many people to keep safe in my family.
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:15.440
And um so if you can learn to do it in a way that minimizes the potential harm, it makes it a little bit easier to make that phone call, I would say.
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:17.599
Anything else to add from anybody?
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:22.159
But this has been such a wonderful discussion, and I I want to make sure people know the name of the book.
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.760
It's called Everything Is Fine by Vince Granada.
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:32.079
There are a few books with that title, but Mimi's holding it up and it's got, is that you and your brother on the beach?
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:35.760
Or is that so it's actually not I have no idea who those children are.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.199
It is actually kind of uncanny.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.280
They do resemble how we looked at that age.
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:44.639
I don't know how they did that, um, but it is that's not actually a photo of us.
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:52.079
Um but just to briefly say before we wrap up here, um, that thank you all for for having for having me and for having this difficult conversation.
00:50:52.159 --> 00:51:02.960
And I I really do hope that that from what we talked about today or something in my book, I've always said that you know, writing this book was tremendously difficult and and took a toll.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:17.280
Um but I have real peace in knowing that it's possible that something in the book or something that comes from one of these conversations could make a real difference for a family that that is in crisis or a family that has a loved one like Tim that they're trying to reach.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.000
Um, and that remains incredibly meaningful to me.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:22.159
All right, thank you so much.
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.039
And I say these are the hopes we had when we wrote our books.
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:32.400
Mindy's is Fix What You Can, Mimi's is He Came In With It, and mine is Ben Behind His Voices.
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:35.119
Vince, thank you so much for joining us here today.
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:36.000
Thank you, Gil.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:42.559
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches.
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:51.119
You can help out the podcast and help others by sharing the podcast and by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts andor on YouTube.
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:59.519
And remember, you can reach us at mindygryling.com, Randy K dot com, or MiriamHeifenfeldman.com.
