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Interviews E11 Jon + Amanda of Proof Bread - From the Garage to Five Bakeries

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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

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This week on Saving Bread, Allison sits down with Jon and Amanda of Proof Bread in Arizona.

Proof began in 2017 with hand-mixed dough, one farmers market, a few wholesale accounts, and a home bakery. Today, Proof has grown to five locations, nearly 100 employees, an in-house milling program, relationships with local grain producers, and an entirely sourdough menu.

Jon and Amanda share what that growth has actually looked like behind the scenes, including hiring their first employees, investing in equipment, building systems, developing an efficient menu, scaling production across multiple locations, and learning when holding onto control can eventually hold a business back.

They also discuss Proof's transition toward locally grown and house-milled grain, how they work with farmers to plan future wheat crops, and why creating a stronger local grain economy has become such an important part of their work.

The conversation also gets into the Proof Intensive, their hands-on program for bakers. Rather than presenting one version of what a bakery should become, Jon and Amanda give bakers an opportunity to see what growth can actually look like and decide for themselves where they want to land.

And ultimately, the conversation comes back to something much bigger than scaling a bakery: bread as craft, tradition, community, and something worth preserving.

In this episode:

• Growing from a garage bakery to five locations
• Hiring and learning to let go of control
• Choosing equipment that actually gives time back
• Building a more efficient bakery menu
• Scaling sourdough bread and pastry
• Milling flour in-house
• Working directly with local grain producers
• Building a stronger regional grain economy
• The Proof Intensive and education for working bakers
• Why bigger isn't necessarily the goal for every bakery
• Bread, community, and preserving human craft

Find Proof Bread

Proof Bread
https://www.proofbread.com/

Instagram
@proofbread

Proof's bakery locations, classes, and additional resources can be found through their website and Instagram.

Food
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TRANSCRIPT 🔗

WEBVTT
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:03.520
Hi friends, welcome back to the Saving Bread Podcast.
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Today we have two very special guests, John and Amanda from Proof Bread in Arizona.
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Proof started in 2017 with dough being mixed by hand at home, some farmers market situations, a few wholesale accounts and equipment that you will learn was just barely keeping up.
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And today they have five locations, nearly 100 employees, mill their own flour, work directly with local farmers, and remain an entirely sourdough bakery.
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What I loved about this conversation was it wasn't really just about growth alone.
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We talked about what it actually takes to move from a small operation into something much larger, including hiring, equipment, menu development, having systems in place and knowing when to invest and learning when to let go of control.
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We also get into their work with Local Grain, their proof intensive program, which is brand new, very exciting, and why they see bread as something much bigger than just a product.
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There is a lot in this conversation for anyone who has wondered what their bakery could become, whether that means growing bigger or deciding that staying small is exactly where you want to be.
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I feel like that's actually a great introduction because that's making bread too, right?
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Like some days you look at the dough and it's right on and everything goes according to plan.
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And then other days it's like off fermenting on its own timeline, or you forget the salt or whatever.
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But at the end of the day, you get it done.
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That's how bakers are.
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Like no matter what, we just get the job done, hell or high water.
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Yeah.
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Creative and resilient people for sure.
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Absolutely.
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I know we'll end up talking a lot about you know the the bakery and how it's evolved since the garage days, but yeah, I think I think that is deeply related, where everybody sort of has their plan A, but we sort of need like plan A through Z and need to know which which of those plans to switch to in a given moment based on whatever it is that needs to get done in a day.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:03:18.479
In the garage days, doing that as a business owner is one thing, but teaching teaching a team to understand whether it's plan B, C, D, or Y or X today, that's been the world that we found ourselves in really for the last five years, which was exactly when we moved out of the garage five years ago to today.
00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:21.199
That's kind of what I where I wanted to start.
00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:34.960
So that's the perfect actually, I think where we should start is having you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit more about where you're located, where some of your bakeries are, and then we'll get into we'll get into the nitty-gritty.
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So I'm John.
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I'm Amanda.
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And we're the owners of Proofbread.
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We're when you say bakeries, that's still something that's a little new, hard to hard to comprehend for us.
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We started from our home in 2017 hand mixing doughs and working at one farmer's market along with working with a handful of wholesale clients at the time, proof grew into a multi-market garage bakery through the through 2020.
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We also worked with our customers in home delivery and other ways.
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We're an all-sourdough bakery.
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So since the garage days, since well before sourdough, you know, took over the the internet, yeah, we we've been long fermenting loaves and also making some of the only sourdough croissants at scale that that we really knew of.
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:43.839
And you know, this is a moving target with every passing week, but we're early in that whole world.
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And so since 2021, when we were forced to move out of our garage by the city that we live in, we opened up our first bakery.
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And fast forward to today, five years later, we have five locations.
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We mill our own flour.
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We have just under 100 employees that work for us.
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We are still an all-sourdough bakery.
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Today we make bread at a level that we're really proud of that that exceeds kind of anything we were able to do back in the garage days.
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But along the along the way, we've you know evolved many times over.
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:23.839
Oh, I bet.
00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:36.000
And we are definitely going to get into all of that because I could imagine that so I have I have young girls, I have um a seven-year-old and a five-year-old, and they get literal growing pains.
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But I think that when you grow physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, it can be very uncomfortable.
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And um, I'm looking forward to hearing a little bit more about how you navigated a lot of that and um how that's looking for you today.
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So did you ever could you have ever imagined when you started in your garage that you would be where you are today?
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Was that your long-term goal?
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Like, was there this dream in your mind that you saw this and it came to be like manifest destiny, or has this just been one opportunity kind of presenting itself after another and it's grown sort of organically?
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That's a hard question to answer because I think we all have visions of the future.
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I think in starting something, those visions are usually not fully aligned or articulated in the first place.
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So whatever was floating through my brain, I mean, going back probably before even meeting Amanda, wanting to get involved at the local level, wanting to make an impact in my community, wanting to do something grounding, those were those were sort of ambitions that led into proof.
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But the idea of being able to sort of visualize what proof has become, I think it's hard to even give yourself the permission to visualize something like that when you're hand-mixing dough and you barely know how to bake bread.
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You know, it's it's hard to make that leap from that to, oh, I I might be at I might be at the base of a small movement that spans spans you know the country or spans across the globe.
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That that would have never entered my mind.
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Yeah, I remember in the beginning I was constantly asking, like, what are we doing with this thing?
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Where are we where are we taking this?
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Where are we going?
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And he couldn't really answer, and I was so frustrated at the time.
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But for me, for sure, I could not imagine being here back when we first started.
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I struggled to really define things early on because I was really focused more on sort of these deeper principles of making a difference.
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And it'll it was only until after building a deeper understanding for what we were doing and what the possibilities were and the landscape that we were operating within that it was easier to define, okay, what do I mean by making it different?
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At first it was just very vague, and every time I was asked a question to define, I sort of pushed back because I was still just trying to figure out what this all was about.
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And sure, I didn't I didn't necessarily want to be limited to a direction that I didn't fully even comprehend, but I did have a feeling that what we were working on mattered, and and unfortunately, like it was that vague at the beginning.
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What I hear you saying is that you are a non-specific manifester if you're into manifestation or living out like your true calling.
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I think some people have a really specific idea of what they want it to be, and they make all of their decisions based off of that specificity.
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And then there's other people, like what you're describing, where they know how they want to feel.
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They know, like you said, they want to feel grounded, like they are making a difference.
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It's a feeling.
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And so you're using that feeling to guide you in your choices and in the things that come into your life.
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And you must have a very good sense of that because what you have grown is magnificent.
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I mean, look at what you've done going from being in your garage now to having several locations, milling yourself and you know, supporting over a hundred employees.
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Like that's incredible.
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And you did that by trusting your heart and that feeling and having a great partner who's like, let's go.
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You know, I'm on for I'm along for the ride.
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That's that's great.
00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:49.759
So congratulations on what you've accomplished, though.
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Like sometimes I think it's hard to say, like, yeah, I did that.
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It's it's great what you've done.
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Thank you.
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I I don't think we have arrived yet.
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I I'm not sure if we ever will arrive per se.
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But if just sort of measuring what we're after on a spectrum or like on a lifetime concept, it it still feels like we're in the adolescent phase of of what we're trying to do.
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And and I don't necessarily mean by size, I don't I don't necessarily mean by you know sheer like I don't know, business terms, money terms.
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I I mostly mean by actual impact, actual sustainability, actual sort of meaning in the community.
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It it seems as though we're just getting started.
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I love that.
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I love that tenacity and that drive and that desire to continue along and to bring it back to bread, because that's kind of what this is all about.
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I feel the same way.
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I mean, I've been baking almost six years now every single week, but I feel like I'm just getting started.
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Do you know what I mean?
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There's always another level, there's always another bake, there's always something new to learn.
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And that's what I think keeps us all here is this idea that you will never arrive.
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It's that there's an endless world of opportunity and learning and collaboration in the bread space.
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Yeah, agreed.
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Not only is it true in bread making, without a doubt, maybe we can take something as simple as country sourdough and see how over the course of nine years it's evolved each you know couple seasons into you know what we make today, which you know we think is like the the best iteration so far.
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But it's the same also in integrating a bakery in the community where the two sort of have very similar features, you know, one being a little bit more technical baking craft, but the other one being making this idea work financially, making this idea work within a team, making this idea something that other people can participate in successfully with different economic conditions than you yourself have as an owner.
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And so when you sort of layer the concept of bringing a bakery into existence and sustaining it, it's as much or more stimulating than the craft itself, just because it's it's a rather endless amount of small little yeah, that that sort of make things a little bit stronger over time.
00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:45.519
In that sense, I would say we we still have a long way to go.
00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:46.559
Yeah.
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:56.879
So when you first began to scale and open multiple locations, how did you manage that?
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Did you have to be on site at each one training the staff and like giving it your you know stamp of approval?
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I personally would have a hard time letting go of the control that I have over my dough.
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Like I will never have an assistant because I'd be like, you're touching it wrong.
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Like I I would have I would have a hard time.
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That's something that I think I would struggle with.
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And so I'm curious how you went with how you went from being in the garage, having so much control over your product, being at the farmer's market to now you have multiple locations.
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How do you even start?
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Like, say, let's say someone has a dream that they want to open multiple locations and they are where you were several years ago.
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Like, what did that first step look like of realizing like I need to outsource some of these jobs if I'm ever gonna grow?
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:53.759
Well, even from the days that we were in the garage, we had people helping us.
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Actually, our first employee, John, hired while I was gone on vacation, which was like the same way.
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It's like I want to take something and I want to perfect it and then pass it on, you know?
00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:05.600
Yeah.
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Or at least have a little bit better understanding of what I'm doing and then pass it on.
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And we hired somebody all at the same time of like us figuring figuring things out.
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And through that process, I I've personally had to really like learn how to like let go and see things grow.
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And it's built capacity in me, whereas like before I was like more like holding things more tightly, and now it's like I kind of like flow with things, but that's I think that's where it started for us, or at least for me, which was the one who had problems like letting go of things.
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And I wouldn't say that our bread has followed like a linear path.
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There has been times when our bread hasn't been the best that it could be, and that's because we were going through growing pains of growing to multiple facilities or growing a team, understanding our own systems and how to translate those to other people that are not you and not in your brain.
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Or in other cases, making long-term supply chain decisions that required actually taking a couple steps back before we could leap forward, like the decisions we made leading up to becoming a mill.
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But in answer to your original question, I think it is baby steps.
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We well, and baby steps is relative because there's really no such thing as like a baby step in hiring people.
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Sure.
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It doesn't really ever feel like a baby step, even even if you hire for the most basic thing that you think you do and and super limited, taking on a team member is a huge change in responsibility and in dynamic and energy.
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And and definitely shouldn't be underestimated.
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We sort of went into that rather early, and and partially it was in trying to fix what was economically broken within Proof before we ever had it.
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We took over an existing bakery from its original founder.
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It was a one-person operation, no doubt, but that one person was severely burning out.
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He hadn't had a day off since February when I started working with him in mid-June.
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And we took over the business in the same state that it was in.
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And so come July when Jared moved away, I simply took over something that was actively just sucking him dry.
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And and it was partially, you know, we were already baking seven days a week for some restaurants.
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We did the farmer's market, and we had really terrible dynamics as far as equipment was concerned.
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You know, here we were in an unair-conditioned Arizona garage.
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We had no mixer to see around.
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We we didn't have a sheeter, and yet we were making sourdough croissants by hand.
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Uh our ovens were, we had like an old pizza oven that was mostly broken.
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It was two levels, and the bottom deck, the top thermos, top like heating element was busted, so it's just like heat from the stone.
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The top deck functioned, I guess, other than the fact that the whole oven had broken thermostats, crazy hot spots, was very porous, didn't you know hold any steam, so we could bake eight loaves an hour.
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And so fast forward just a few months when our season started getting a little bit busier, and when we considered our first big business pivot, which was add a second market and start weaning off of the wholesale dependency, which we identified that was just killing us.
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Well, adding a second market meant now that oven had to be fed basically 24 hours a day.
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So there's no way to do that without some level of help.
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So we immediately sort of had to start pivoting around this this set of challenges.
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And we did what I think a lot of people do.
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We hired our first employee because we we were desperate in in terms of wanting to get a few hours of sleep.
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I could imagine why the original owner was burned out.
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That is that's a challenge.
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Eight loaves in an hour.
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My my origin story is not unlike that of baking two loaves every hour and thinking like somehow that was gonna work out.
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But you're going along, you're you're feeling all of these challenges, you're encountering an oven that barely works, but you want to grow, you have all of these goals, so you hire somebody.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.759
When did you realize, okay, I need to buy equipment?
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.079
And what were the first few things that you bought?
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The first one really was completely out of necessity.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.359
We Are you talking about the sheeter and the mixer?
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:18.319
No, the oven.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:19.599
Oh, yeah.
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We we didn't really have the ability to look at equipment.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:34.880
I mean, I remember at the time thinking I would go on social media and see people with mixers and legitimately wonder, will I ever have a mixer?
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I just could not figure out the math on where would the I mean, I was already even thinking in terms of like auction grade equipment, and I'd become aware that maybe for like around$1,000 I could buy something.
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And it was not clear to me how$1,000 was going to materialize at at that time when the bakery as a whole seemed to be bringing in maybe maybe$2,000 in the week.
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And you know, we already had a couple people part-time to pay and had to pay for the ingredients and it the just and and also the equipment we did have was clearly not in the greatest shape.
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And we needed a bunch of like little things that seemingly were endless, you know, new new bins or new so so bigger pieces of equipment seemed completely unreachable until one day in the winter, you know, maybe nine, ten months in, that oven that I was just describing stopped functioning.
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:49.359
And we we didn't have yeah, we didn't have very good service relationships at the time either, but we started calling around.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:51.200
Can we pause on that for a second?
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.759
Because that's something for a new baker.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:59.039
Like, I don't think most people think about that is like who are your service people?
00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:09.920
If you're gonna buy a big piece of equipment or if you're gonna inherit a big piece of equipment, that's the layer that you want to get figured out the maintenance and then the service companies that you want to work with.
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:15.200
So that's maybe give them bread, bring them cookies, have them on speed pile.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:20.799
These people need to be yeah, very close friends, yeah, and feed them.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:21.279
Yeah.
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:21.920
Yeah.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:27.759
So actually, actually, like 10 months in, you know, here we are, bakery without an oven.
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The service company that came out basically said, you know, this thing's like 40 years old.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.480
It's been wired probably eight different times in a custom way.
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:42.640
It's you know no longer doing what it was originally even designed to do from a wiring perspective.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:44.559
We can't find parts for this thing.
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.359
It's toast, like it's toast.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.519
Well, that really prompted a big problem.
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:59.759
We looked around, and just replacing it with another pizza oven seemed to be a$5,000 adventure and going back.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.400
Back to what I'd said earlier and had no idea how that would come about.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.319
We had exactly one asset at the time.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:14.240
It was actually Amanda's first home, her condo in Tembi, and it was being rented out.
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.640
It just so happened, I think that like lease renewal was right around the corner.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:24.559
I feel like there have been so many times along this journey where the universe has just been like, Are you really in?
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:25.359
You know.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.279
This is what I'm saying.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:31.680
Two people together are calling in what they need from the universe, but continue.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:33.839
I would like to tell me the rest.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:46.799
Well, so Amanda's dad ended up giving us a loan for a short-term loan while I sold my condo so that we could and we we raised a bit of money from the community to put it down on an oven.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:23:05.920
Yeah, so then like two months later, we have this$20,000 ABS oven arrive in our garage, and it required another$20,000 of Amanda's, you know, condo's equity to power the thing because you know getting it to hook up in the garage is no easy feat.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.240
Right.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.119
But now we're at four decks steam injected.
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:21.039
We could bake 96 loaves an hour, which is quite the wow, you know, quite the climb from eight, so 12-fold difference in in productivity.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:27.200
We're still hand mixing our doughs at the time, but we had this killer oven.
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.759
So that was the first big equipment purchase.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:37.119
Yeah, so that was born out of a need, but I would say our first like intentional equipment purchase.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.240
It's the mixer later.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:46.799
It was a mixer, but I think that was not necessarily and I don't know that that was the right move.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.480
Is it the right move, do you think?
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.400
Well, there's three actually.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:56.720
The first mixer we bought for a thousand bucks was a 20-quart Hobart on auction, and that was a waste of a thousand dollars.
00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:58.960
Yeah, we were already beyond that point.
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:07.119
We we still ended up just mixing everything in bins by hand because you know, waiting around for it, and it maybe it's out of work.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.720
We still have that 20-quart hobart in production today.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:17.920
It still makes fillings and you know plays a random it's been paid off many times over by now.
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:23.519
But at the time, with how little we had, that was not the greatest move.
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:29.759
The second mixer was an$800, 60-quart hobart that started to actually do something.
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:43.680
So I think for me, the the piece of equipment that really made a huge difference in terms of profitability, time saved, not just the oven, that was more of like a oh shit, we need that.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:25:17.839
Um but the that piece of equipment that I'm talking about is the sheeter because we had like slowly like built things up, and bakers are you know like the most resourceful people, and so we ended up fashioning a sheeter out of like a pasta roller, and then John was spending like 40 hours a week just rolling dough through this thing, and so I just remember like thinking like okay, this thing is like$15,000, it's gonna pay itself off in the matter of weeks, and I think that's another thing for new bakers to consider.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.200
Sorry, we're both getting over a cold, so our voices are low.
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.519
Oh, my last episode that's coming out on Wednesday, I had laryngitis.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.039
So I'm like, good luck, everybody.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.079
It's okay, we're all just trying to make it happen.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:32.079
Back to school.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.880
Um where was I in the story?
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.400
Sheeter, buying a cheater, 15k.
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.599
That was actually a leveraged purchase, believe it or not.
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.240
We used a terrible form of debt.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:53.039
Like I would I would never recommend this form of debt unless you're in some like extraordinary circumstances.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:26:02.640
Maybe this is the extraordinary circumstance where a merchant capital loan from from like your point of sale could be turned around effectively.
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.720
We certainly did turn it around effectively.
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:26.559
We had used that same form of financing later on and quickly realized that we should never use that form of financing ever again, just because that sort of vicious like 10% pull on your revenue daily throttling you the whole time.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:31.200
It's one thing when you're in your garage and you are mostly just supporting yourself.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:27:03.039
At the time, I think we're still playing with some of the money left over from Manda's condo sale, but those merchant capital loans really don't work once once you no longer have some form of cash to cover your expenses because if they're taking anywhere near 10% off the top, well if you're lucky, that's that's your whole margin as a artisan bakery.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.640
It's just too much.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:06.319
Yeah, so for hold on.
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:17.599
Let me, Amanda, let me pause you for a sec, because I want to I want to circle back to what you were saying, and I maybe I was gonna, maybe I'm misreading what you were going to say, but you were saying as most bakers will realize, and I think we were talking about the sheeter.
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:18.400
Yeah.
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:31.839
Do you feel like the sheeter was such a good investment because there's so much interest, profitability, sales in pastry versus bread?
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:40.079
I I mean, I would imagine that pastry is really what brings people in, and especially because you have sourdough, venoiserie, right?
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.279
That's kind of like what you're really well known for.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:50.799
You know, everybody loves to make bread, but I do think that there is quite a bit of money that can come in the door by having pastry.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:28:00.400
And so I wanted to circle back to that and say, do you feel like that was a good investment because of how many people come specifically for your sourdough pastry?
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:02.720
Yeah, I think so for sure.
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:09.039
For us, we've noticed a trend when people are drawn in by the croissant and then stay red.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:24.400
And to this day, when we do proof intensives, it's one of the things we make sure to emphasize with up-and-coming bakers that you should have something on your menu for now and something on your menu for later.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:29.599
And you know, the croissants are a really powerful thing to have on your menu for now.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.720
They are a little bit differentiated because they're not so easy to make.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:43.200
Sourdough in particular, you know, gives you some somewhat of a moat, I guess.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:47.519
You're not gonna like go around and find other people doing what you're doing.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:54.799
And by the time we had ever bought the sheeter, I had definitely maxed out anything I could do without it.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:06.799
I mean, I was already laminating by hand, you know, on this like crank pasta roller that we had fashioned into a sheeter, something like 1,500 croissants a week.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:13.279
So it wasn't a small amount that we were already selling before the sheeter came in.
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:17.759
And we knew that this was like a different product, so we priced this accordingly.
00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:22.400
I feel like a lot of bakers fall into the trap of like underpricing themselves.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.759
Oh and so we're like, no, this is tons of work.
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:28.559
We need to definitely like lift the price here.
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:35.279
And so I just saw if we bring this sheeter in, we're gonna be saving so much time and then increasing our profitability.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:36.559
It's true.
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:44.400
I mean, it cut my work from what seemed like 40 hours down to a single shift.
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.559
So talk about the giving back time.
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:50.160
Absolutely.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:58.880
And investments in equipment aren't just the equipment, it's literally your time, the one thing that cannot be replaced in this life.
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:20.160
So as Amanda was saying, if it's priced accordingly and you put in this investment into a sheet or whatever the baker is focusing on, maybe they're making cinnamon rolls and they need a proof or what have you, that can really give you a lot back more of your time for other areas that need a lot of attention.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.759
When we're talking about your menu, because we kind of touched on that.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:34.480
So I want to circle back to the menu development and the sourdough pastry and the bread, because I think that's an interesting area to go down a little bit more, especially as you've grown.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:50.559
And then I would like to move a little bit into the the milling and the intensive that you have, but let's focus for a minute on the menu because as you've grown, you've held on to these things, the sourdough pastry and the breads.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:54.799
Have you carried the same menu along with you as you've grown?
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:57.680
Are all the same menus at all of your locations?
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:00.799
And well, let's answer those two first questions.
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:05.119
Do you still have the same menu and is it at all of your locations?
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:11.440
When we first started, we inherited whatever Jared was making, and then John got very creative.
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.640
We played how many things on the menu at that time.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.200
I just remember having like tables and tables full of different bowls of different mixes.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:29.200
And I realized like that's not gonna fly long term, you know, like it's not efficient, and it's I'm I guess I'm very much on efficiency.
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:30.160
I'm realizing.
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.519
Tell us then how you built an efficient menu.
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:34.160
Sure.
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:34.559
Go ahead.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:36.079
You want to talk about mastery dose?
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:37.279
Sure, yeah.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:45.680
The thing is originally when we were mixing by hand, it was easy to sort of get lost in new mixes because you know what's the difference?
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:53.680
I'm already putting out a bowl or a bin and doing a separate mix so you can have as many separate mixes as you want.
00:31:53.920 --> 00:32:03.680
But we bought our first auction grade spiral mixer, and now you know it had the capacity to fit like 120 of our country sourdoughs.
00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:21.920
Well, that was probably the first moment where it didn't really make sense to mix a second dough for a cranberry walnut sourdough that was nearly identical to the country sourdough, except for the fact that it had cranberry and walnuts.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:32.400
You know, maybe the recipe was slightly off on water or slightly off on some other ingredient, but for the most part, you know, flour water, salt, you know.
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:39.519
Well, so we started to batch dough together that made sense to batch together.
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:53.680
And you know, we I don't think we invented, but we we did develop a really nice way of folding in our inclusions that we've been sharing online now for many years.
00:32:53.839 --> 00:33:00.000
And we were able to take a master dough and split it into you know numerous products.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:15.200
So you know, to this day we have maybe seven or eight dough that we mix daily, but we have north of 30 products that are you know made from them.
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:20.000
And a lot of that has carried through from the garage days.
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:25.519
We still, you know, we're a farmer's market bakery, we still are a farmer's market bakery.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:35.200
The farmer's market was built upon like a non-TCS or time temperature controlled menu, something that we could do as cottage bakers.
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:44.240
The markets still are a sixth of everything we do, and they're still run that same way with our older garage menu.
00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:48.640
So we haven't complicated them even though we could now, in theory.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.000
The bakeries now get a little bit more fancy.
00:33:52.319 --> 00:34:04.960
We'll serve some items that that are time and temperature controlled, you know, more food service items, but oftentimes they're still based on the same same base products.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:17.920
So, you know, we might take our sourdough Danish, and we have a savory one on the menu right now that has lebne and fresh veggies, Zatar, and it is kind of finished in that Mediterranean way.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.840
Well, that that product only is out for four hours at a time.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.719
I see.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:29.360
So well, and also that that those type of things can have the potential to create a lot of waste if you're not careful.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:39.679
But I think like inspiration between behind this for me personally, like I can draw on a personal experience, which was hiking into the Grand Canyon and camping for a few days.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:50.480
Like, you have to be very selective with what you bring in your bag, and those things that you bring in your bag better, like especially if it's a tool or something, it better be multifunctional.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:35:01.840
And so I think that like for me, that like connected a dot with like how we produce our bread and any tools that we bring into the bakery is like how can I use this one thing in multiple ways?
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:06.559
I mean, croissant dare to this day is one dough 40% of the business.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:15.519
So if a person comes to any of your locations, will they see the same menu at all of them, or is there a little bit of variety at each one?
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.559
For the most part, it will be a consistent menu across.
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:31.280
I want to say, like, our long-term, my long-term goal is to have each bakery kind of be representative of its unique community, you know.
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:40.639
If you worked with us in the garage all those years ago and you hit a different market, every market has a different personality.
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:46.880
And I kind of want our locations to like reflect that back to the community and to give people a reason.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.559
Yeah, and to give like our customers a reason to like, hey, travel to this other one and get this new thing here.
00:35:52.800 --> 00:36:11.199
But right now, right now where we are in our growth journey is we are really focused on the systems, and in order to have really good systems and build a good system foundation, we need to have that consistency and the like same products everywhere.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:12.800
That's what I was just going to ask you.
00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:17.119
I think what you're saying makes so much sense of rinse and repeat.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:18.079
Rinse and repeat.
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:22.559
It's working over here, let's do it over here, let's do it over here, let's get everyone on the same page.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:30.320
We've got the mother doughs, we've got the mix-ins, we've got the different ways that we use our sourdough pastry, and like let's get it really dialed in.
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:37.920
And then as you're describing as time goes along, okay, maybe this location just has maybe like one or two signature products.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.960
Or if you go to that area, you get that specific pastry.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:47.920
But at the heart of it, you have what's kind of consistent across all like market stores.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:37:05.760
Our original downtown Mesa bakery now doesn't have all the equipment necessary to do all phases, but we have an interesting production model where you know we can't really afford a central huge warehouse that would put all of our production under one roof.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:13.920
And so we're using kind of the backs of retail buildings to produce bread for over 8,000 families a week.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:30.719
And the way that we do that, it's the same as what we did in the garage, but split between locations, meaning our Shea Bakery does most of the mixing and shaping, all the mixing and shaping and milling for the whole business.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.039
But our Mesa Bakery has the biggest ovens and the biggest proofer.
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:41.039
And so, you know, in the garage we had a cold stage in a fridge.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:44.800
You know, our shaped bread went into a fridge overnight.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.360
Eventually that turned into a walk-in cooler.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:38:04.320
You know, now the walk-in cooler is actually a refrigerated truck where when the loaves are shaped at Shea, they get wheeled onto a refrigerated truck that makes its way to Mesa and the process continues.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:22.880
So in and that's been it's a very, very intentional scaling decision that prevents us from having duplicate bakeries that are trying to do the same thing on repeat.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:29.760
Instead, we have very intentional teams doing portions of the work in one given place.
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:40.719
Well, there was a point in our history too that we had our production separated, and what we found was it was again a very inefficient way of operating.
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.480
Now I needed two separate teams to produce one body of dough.
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.960
And so that's part of the reason.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:39:07.679
I think ultimately the goal would be to way down the line, centralize everything and distribute from there, but we are kind of also bound to the decisions that we made early on, and like the type of like like where we put our heavy investments and baking and storage capacity and all of that.
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:26.079
So the way that you're explaining it is that you have one location that is responsible for making all of the dough, then you put it on a refrigerator and then it goes out to the different locations, and then the process continues, meaning they bake it there and then they sell it through that location.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:27.280
What about pastry?
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:28.800
How does that flow look?
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:29.440
Yeah, things.
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:39.280
So the way that we produce all of our doughs out of one location, and then part of that dough stays there and they bake on site for their bakery.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:45.679
And then the rest of it sent gets sent to another location which has our greatest oven capacity.
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.519
And so that we actually bake overnight and then distribute from there.
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:50.000
Gotcha.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:56.239
Yeah, and uh the other locations just place orders for what they believe they can sell.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:07.360
So uh we have the same menu available, and each location you know has its own personality, sells more or less of given product categories.
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:19.679
We we also do small portions of the process at two other locations because they were full bakeries at one time.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:27.760
And when we took them on, you know, they're mostly retail stores, but they still have back kitchens that are useful.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:34.559
And the team, it's a good way of getting the team kind of engaged in the workflows, even in part.
00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:42.880
So our Lichfield Park location still has an oven there, and so we're making making some of our cookie products there.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:54.880
Our Tempe location has a back kitchen, and we put our prep program in there where we're able to cut, you know, say vegetables to top our Roman pizza.
00:40:55.039 --> 00:41:18.400
And so those those prep vegetables end up going out in containers to all the other locations so that you know they can just so it's it's a big heavy lift in production that everybody is participating in based on the tools and stations that each location has, and it's all very tightly organized around a distributed model.
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:41.360
And every location kind of has something to feed the ecosystem so they're not just like out there on an island, or at least that's what we're trying to create, because we've had it in the past where we've taken things away from a bakery so that we were thinking like, oh, it's gonna be better, like it's gonna be way more streamlined, but then they're like, Well, we can do more, yeah.
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:54.079
And so, and and then you know, you don't want the you don't want to ostracize a location or make them feel like they're like on an island somewhere, and so that's how we decided on that.
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.119
So your milling is happening at one of your locations, okay.
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:03.519
And where are you sourcing your wheat from for your mill?
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:10.559
So we work with two different sets of farmers locally on both sides of town.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.840
We do contract-based growing.
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:33.760
So each year in the fall, we'll meet with the farmers and let them know what varieties we would like to grow and how many tons of those varieties we can sort of commit to for the following July to July.
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:47.039
So it's like a decision we make around November for, so like this November we'll be making a decision for July 2027 to end of June 2028.
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:58.320
And so then the farmer will go and plant those varieties of wheat berries in the ground, and uh by late June they're being harvested.
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:05.679
We supplement also with some regional grain that we buy, you know, from from various sources.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:17.440
Central milling is, you know, one that comes to mind, but the vast majority of the grain that we mill is bought and sourced here locally with farmers in our area.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:21.519
Our country sourdough features 70% of our house mill grain.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:24.239
Yeah, so this year 70?
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:25.360
70.
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:27.039
So wow, that's a lot.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:27.920
That's great.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:34.880
Yeah, that was inverted from 30 just a year ago of house milk grains.
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:42.800
And so when I say, you know, today we're doing things that we couldn't have dreamed of doing in the garage, that's you know one of them.
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:47.280
So you had your the two of you in your garage, and then you had an employee, right?
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:48.320
Number three.
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:53.920
Then you got your farmers' markets, and then you're opening multiple locations.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.280
You said you employ about a hundred people, is that correct?
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:58.000
Yeah.
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:04.079
In addition to that, you're Also working with two local farms.
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:05.199
Is that what you said?
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:06.079
Two farmers?
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:19.440
Yeah, it's uh well, so one one of our direct relationships is more of like a grain cleaner who works with farmers, and then the other side of town is both farmer and grain cleaner.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:19.679
Yeah.
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:20.400
Okay.
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:25.039
So now you've brought in the farmers and the the people who process the grains.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:36.239
I'm assuming they have employees that they are paying because they need to tend to the farms, harvest, clean, etc., dra bag, drive, and deliver to you.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:48.400
So you've essentially created a small ecosystem of all of these people that you are supporting, working with, collaborating with.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:51.679
Like you've created quite the the web.
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:55.679
It's not just the people working in the bakery.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:05.679
It's it's all of the people who are also affected by that through farming, through milling, through, and we'll get to it, your your new learning program.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:17.280
Like I I do feel like I'm understanding now what you said at the beginning of this interview of dreaming really big, because the web is just sort of continuing to grow out and out, right?
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.719
And I'm sure you're, as you said, you feel like you're just getting started.
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:32.000
But it's actually quite impressive what you've done because it's one thing to purchase a certain amount of grain from a farmer, and let's say, you know, every month you get X amount.
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:53.760
But what you're saying is that the two of you, I'm assuming, meet with this farmer and you say, I am going to guarantee that I use this amount for the next year, and I want please plant this specific variety, and then that, you know, homegrown wheat is then being milled and used at 70% in your country, though.
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.519
And I'm assuming that you you probably put it in some other things as well.
00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:59.599
That's that's significant.
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:20.960
We're trying to essentially build a more sovereign local food system and a bit of a parallel food economy, if you think of it that way, that and it sort of all boils down to things that we were thinking about and talking about along this entire journey.
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:38.559
Being at the farmer's market in early 2017, hand mixing dough, not having slept on Friday night, being excited to share a hard work with the community, only be met with questions like, What flour do you use?
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:40.400
Is it glyphosate free?
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:42.000
Can you tell me that?
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:50.880
And you know, at the time we were buying flour from the restaurant supply store, and I know it wasn't glyphosate-free.
00:46:50.960 --> 00:47:08.239
It wasn't certified organic, and now that I know a little bit about the way wheat is grown and how glyphosate is used to desiccate wheat before harvest, I I would say that the vast majority of conventionally grown grain is glyphosate ridden.
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:23.679
So it was it was, I guess, an annoying thing to me to spend all this time and effort and energy building a beautiful bread only for it to be tarnished before I ever started.
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:27.440
I what you're saying speaks to me deeply.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:44.079
And I would like to ask both of you: do you feel a different relationship to your product and your team and your story now knowing where your wheat comes from and milling it yourself?
00:47:45.039 --> 00:48:04.239
I mean, I can say foundationally, uh Matt, one of our farmers, walked into the Shea Bakery a little over a year ago, and his family had been growing wheat for a couple generations here in the valley, and he said, if you guys work with us, you can save our family farm.
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:20.079
And he was dead serious about it because if you grow wheat for the commodity market, you end up getting paid oftentimes just the commodity price of you know what what the going rate for a bushel is.
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.719
I think it's like five or six dollars for a bushel.
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.320
It's about 55 pounds of wheat.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:42.000
And here in Arizona, we grow pretty much only glyphosate-free wheat because rather than needing Roundup to dry it out before harvest so the combine can process it, the farmer can just stop watering it.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:46.079
And the sun does a pretty good job of drying things out around here.
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:53.280
So that's a beautiful element of Arizona or just desert growing wheat around the world.
00:48:53.599 --> 00:49:02.400
But the fact that water is a paid input means it's almost impossible for the farmer to compete with commodity pricing.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:04.559
It they they won't make it.
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:09.119
So farmers are just planting wheat around here to in their crop rotation.
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:23.840
But if a baker comes in and gives them a price that's actually fair on both sides, I'm getting a good price for the grains in comparison to the price I can get for grains coming further away.
00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:29.760
I'm also not really burning anywhere near the fuel to, you know, get them across the country.
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:38.480
And second, the farmers now getting four, five, six, seven, eight times the price that they would be getting on the commodity market.
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:51.440
So when Matt says, you know, you can save my family farm, I believe him, especially now that you know we've planted a few hundred acres worth with him over the course of these last couple seasons.
00:49:51.679 --> 00:50:11.840
So it's yeah, the relationship that we have to our bread now is it's not just the relationship that we have to our bread, it's the tens of thousands of stories of customers that come in and they buy our bread because they don't feel bloated eating a long-fermented sourdough.
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:21.599
Or, you know, it's the employees that are building careers, building skills, some cases like really making big strides in their lives.
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.559
So we've had employees buy homes.
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:33.440
I mean, we still have so much to do as an employer, but we're we're trying to just become a better employer with each passing year.
00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:40.960
And of course, you know, it's our family and what what the bread means to our family and our friends, just like it always has.
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:44.800
So, you know, what we make carries a community meeting.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:45.280
Wow.
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:48.239
I actually visited one of your bakeries.
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:51.360
Gosh, it must have been about two years ago now.
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.320
I think it was the Mesa location.
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:55.920
A little bit smaller.
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:57.440
Is it a little bit smaller one?
00:50:58.079 --> 00:50:59.760
Did it have like brick walls?
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:00.320
Yeah.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:00.639
Yeah.
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:04.880
Yes, I got it was like a lemon.
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.679
It was like a cut piece of pastry and it had like lemon in the middle.
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:10.960
It was so good.
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.400
I was just there for like 48 hours for a wedding, and I was like, I gotta go to proof.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:22.800
So I literally went and got a couple pastries and then went to the the pre-wedding festivities.
00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:25.840
Yeah, that was our first location.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.480
That was the location we moved into outside of a garage, and okay.
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:34.079
We ran out of space there within a couple years.
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.119
It's it's rather long, it's 130 feet long.
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:46.400
You only see the you know, first ten of it as a customer, but it was still very hard to loop everything into there.
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:52.159
So okay, let's let's go ahead and move on to I know what most people are probably coming to this.
00:51:52.320 --> 00:52:00.960
Well, I'm sure that people are gonna be surprised when they hear a lot of the things that we spoke about because sometimes I you have an idea on Instagram, right?
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:08.800
But you don't really get the full weight of it until you hear someone physically speak out their story.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:29.039
And I think there are going to be, I know that there are going to be a lot of bakers who hear both of your stories and your story together as a unit of how you can make a difference in the community in the world if you just like bear down and and follow your dreams.
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:35.760
Like you're you've done incredible work and you're doing incredible things in your community, and I know people will be really, really inspired by it.
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.079
So thank you for sharing that portion.
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:39.840
I really loved hearing about it.
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:57.679
I'd like to talk about what I think a lot of people are also very excited about, which is your new baking intensive program and what it is, who it's for, and anything that you'd like to share with me about it, I'd love to hear it.
00:52:58.239 --> 00:52:58.800
Sure.
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:07.119
Well, I think what it is is more community building than meets the eye.
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:13.199
People sign up for something like this thinking, you know, it's it's a course, it lasts a weekend.
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:17.199
And mechanically, I guess that's true.
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:37.119
Although when you see the groups that have already come through here and how interconnected they remain months after they've left daily group communications, sharing experiences, that that's the longer term value of what we're trying to do is bringing people together.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.039
We're fermenting friendships.
00:53:40.800 --> 00:53:43.440
But it's kind of a a big deal, right?
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:55.920
Because we're, I don't know, we started in the garage in so many years, so many challenges, so many decisions where if they don't go well, you're done for.
00:53:57.039 --> 00:54:03.840
This has been a soul-scraping journey, and I know that we're not the only ones there.
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:20.880
And so this program is like our way of giving back to like baby bakers like us, you know, like when how we started, like a lot of these bakers that are emerging today like didn't have prior experience, weren't growing up in kitchens.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:28.639
Some were already doing like incredible volume, but they don't necessarily know how they even got there.
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:36.000
Just like just like it happened for us, you know, a couple years in, and you're baking for hundreds of people, and you wonder, when did that happen?
00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:36.480
Yeah.
00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:40.239
So tell me what happens during the the full experience.
00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:45.920
Walk me through it, kind of just give me a little window as to what my time would be like there.
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:50.559
So first we select the group intentionally.
00:54:50.960 --> 00:55:04.719
We there's a wide range of people applying, and so we ask a lot of questions up front that help us screen to see if somebody is really ready for the information that we have to deliver.
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:16.400
It is it is a lot of information to be exposed to at once, and also we try to keep the group somewhat compatible with one another, too.
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:48.880
If we notice that we're accepting a lot of people on a particular stage of development, we try to make sure that there's enough people that can sort of relate to that stage because zero to a few million of revenue is probably the range that we have a lot of expertise in teaching based on where we are as a bakery, but compare a$1 million operator to somebody that's barely started, and there are different challenges that the the two are facing.
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.079
We so we do some intentional grouping up front.
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:58.639
When you arrive, the program starts on Friday night with kind of a reception at one of our locations.
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:07.920
We've picked a hotel in town that's centrally located in Tem B that we partner with to offer affordable rooms.
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:10.480
A lot of the attendees stay there.
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:17.679
We offer transportation to and from basically our whole you know ecosystem across the weekend.
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.039
And after that first night is when things get started.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:27.920
The Saturday program is with Amanda and I at the bakery along with a lot of our leaders.
00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:39.840
We go through basically how we do things at proof, really focusing on master doughs and the mixing room to start with the mill running in the background.
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:54.000
We then land at shaping and croissant work, and day one ends with an experience near our bakery with a cheese shop that we often run events with, and we do like a bread and cheese tasting at night.
00:56:54.159 --> 00:57:11.599
So the program follows this type of cadence where during the day there's a lot of learning, and during the evening we do something in the community with uh with the attendees to sort of help create that connection of okay, well, how is this applied?
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:19.199
What you're you're doing, both to give ideas and to also spend some time together and really get to know each other over the course of the weekend.
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:24.239
Yeah, and then on Sunday it kind of breaks into like different tracks.
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:38.559
So we have like a pastry track, a bread track, which are more hands-on, and then we have more of like a business track that talks about anything from menu development to hiring, growth, equipment, and maintenance.
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:45.039
So smaller groups on Sunday, and those smaller groups are plugging in with our team.
00:57:45.360 --> 00:58:00.320
So on Saturday, where you know Amanda and I are leading a lot of the instruction, by Sunday, the folks that are doing bread or pastry are working in smaller groups directly with some of the most skilled team members at Proof.
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:08.079
And mind you, our team collectively possesses well over a hundred years of experience in in baking.
00:58:08.159 --> 00:58:21.360
And usually it's a lot of the veterans or leaders in our organization, albeit some of them are younger, some of them are older, but a lot of them are the ones most heavily involved in the instruction throughout the weekend as well.
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:24.400
So we get to test our our own systems.
00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:30.239
And then on Sunday, I usually am preparing a lunch for everybody before we kind of break.
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:36.000
We have like some mingling time after that, a little Q ⁇ A, informal QA with John and I.
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:45.440
And then we have a really nice Sunday night dinner again with another sort of like artisan in our in our community.
00:58:45.840 --> 00:59:03.360
And then on Monday we jump into baking the bread that we mixed on Saturday, and so we talk about those flows, we do a bit of business planning, everybody really leaves here, kind of being accountable for one at least one thing to change in the next 30, 30 days.
00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:04.159
Yeah.
00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:16.719
And then and then we break, give, give everybody like some time to sort of download some of this, and afterwards we do like a nighttime, an optional nighttime excursion.
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:22.320
So for the summertime, we're really displaying the beauty of Arizona here through the Salt River.
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:41.440
We do a float, which is like a uniquely Arizona activity, and it's a really nice way to end kind of a really intense weekend of knowledge gathering by just floating down a river, hanging out with these people that you've made like really deep friendships with over the past couple of days.
00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:42.800
And yeah.
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:56.639
Yeah, 30 days later we jump on a call, and those goals that were set on the last day of the intensive are brought back up in a facilitated discussion to see how everybody's doing against those.
00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:00.000
And we do the same type of thing after 90 days as well.
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:05.039
So really sort of intentionally building that longer-term connection.
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:18.639
And despite the facilitation that we notice that we're we're meeting at day 30, but our attendees are still chatting every single day between day the last day and day 30.
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:21.840
So yeah, people basically finish what they start.
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:25.119
So what we start on Saturday, we finish on Monday.
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:39.519
And in the mix, I really get a chance to dive deep into our bakery and our ecosystem and get a closer look, whether that be at milling, at pastry, at mixing, or at some of the business concepts that Amanda and I have learned over the years.
01:00:39.760 --> 01:01:05.119
Yeah, I think when we created this program, we really like created it with the intention of just like being able to share knowledge and then the the like community and social aspect of it was like a I guess an unexpected, I mean I guess it's expected to some degree, but the value of that and how much value people saw in that was unexpected.
01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:09.039
But now looking back, I think about like that was my biggest struggle.
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:14.559
It was like I felt so lonely on this journey in my little bakery cave.
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:18.960
Nobody really understood like what we're going through, why we're going through, like why we were not sleeping.
01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:28.480
For me, for us, it's so meaningful, but for the person waking up at eight to go to their office by nine or ten, like they don't get it.
01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:28.960
Right.
01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:39.280
And it's it's hard until you find community through things like what you're doing, Allison, with this podcast, or getting out of your bakery to be able to see it from a different lens.
01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:45.519
I think for us, when we got to a certain point, John and I got a little bit more free and we could travel again.
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:46.880
And like that's what we do.
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:58.239
Whenever we travel, we're like always visiting bakeries because in those little visits, we've like picked up little things that we've taken and put into the mosaic that is proof today.
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:16.320
And so being able to offer that willingly, like open arms come, take a deep dive with us, not only reinforces the systems that we are building and creating from scratch, but also gives people a different perspective on what they want to pull out for their own bakery and their own operations.
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:17.119
Absolutely.
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:23.519
When someone comes to take a class, you don't expect them to do everything you show them from start to finish.
01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:25.440
That's it's not possible.
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:35.920
But when they come there, they're gonna find guaranteed, they're gonna get something from each day, maybe multiple things from each day, or even just one thing that really speaks to them, I'm sure of it.
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:40.320
And they'll bring that home and it's just gonna completely like change the game for them.
01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:43.920
That's how at least my experience has been in any classes that I've taken.
01:02:44.000 --> 01:03:04.639
It's been a lot and a short amount of time, but there's just that one idea that you just needed to hear from someone who's already done it, and you're like, oh, all the light bulbs go off, and suddenly you realize, oh, I can make a mother dough, or oh, this sheet or that's how I use it, and now I can make all these pastries, or oh, that's how the croissant looks when it's properly proofed.
01:03:04.719 --> 01:03:08.880
And suddenly it's just yeah, it just goes from good to great.
01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:15.119
And I'm sure that's what you're experiencing in those 30 and did you say 30 and 90 day checkpoints?
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:15.760
Yes.
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:16.320
Yeah.
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:27.440
Seeing how people applied the things that really spoke to them into their baking and the growth that I'm sure happens quickly after they've gone home and started to apply them.
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:29.679
So I think that's really cool that you're offering.
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:30.719
I that sounds fun.
01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:34.719
I would like to come just to hang out and learn how to make pastry.
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:36.400
That's not something that I know how to do.
01:03:36.559 --> 01:03:41.119
So that sounds like a really fun time, especially the river float at the end.
01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:44.239
What a fun activity to do together outside and in nature.
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:46.880
Because as bakers, we spend a lot of time inside.
01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:47.280
Yeah.
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:51.519
It's pretty cool to do it in the context of one operation, too.
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:58.719
One of my favorite things to do is to go to grain conferences and also participate in in education.
01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:01.599
Uh, it those have been transformative over the years.
01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:10.239
There's something special though about being in just the context of one operation and understanding things from that lens.
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:22.719
It takes on a slightly different level of focus where we can get into the weeds on things that won't fall out in a conference where everybody's kind of on foreign turf.
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:29.679
You know, you can go and see nitty-gritty processes and take those back home.
01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:34.559
And it's often in the small things that you find the most value.
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:35.599
Exactly.
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:45.920
In some little way that we do something that translates into hundreds of hours saved, you know, over the year or demystifies a process.
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:56.079
I mean, the first group we had quite a few, quite a few people that were just beginning their cottage journeys in the first group, sorry, the second group.
01:04:56.239 --> 01:05:01.199
And what we noticed during shaping, people were doing things like stitching the bottoms of their loaves.
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:02.880
Like after it was in the banner.
01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:10.719
They would they would shape, you know, bread and then put it in the bannettin, and then go back through all the bannettins and stitch the bottoms.
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:14.480
And we were sort of perplexed at this because what are you doing?
01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:17.039
Because we shape like a thousand loaves a day.
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:26.800
So the idea of basically spending double the time to shape the loaf and then to shape the bottom of the loaf again just made no sense.
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:31.679
Well, during the weekend, we surely did not shape the bottom of the loaves.
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:52.079
And then the following Monday, when everybody baked that bread, for a lot of the newer cottage bakers, that was like a that was a moment of kind of freeing a shackle that they had that might be taking 30 minutes of their day right now, but at scale fast forwarded into our space, they clearly saw, and that's the benefit of this.
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:57.039
You get to fast forward to maybe a place that you'll never want to be.
01:05:57.199 --> 01:05:58.559
And that's also valuable.
01:05:58.719 --> 01:05:59.760
You get to see where.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:04.000
Where along all of this do I want to land?
01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:08.880
Going all the way back to that original question of could I imagine this up front?
01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:12.639
No, because I didn't know of anybody doing it.
01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:27.280
And so, in a way, now people who come to the intensive can imagine themselves way further down the line and can say, Well, this really resonates with me, or this is a little too much, or wherever they land on that spectrum.
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:32.320
We've had people come and say, I'm confirmed now, I do not, I'm gonna stay small.
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:34.639
And that's great, like that's valuable.
01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:45.760
Yeah, that you get to skip years of in being in that turmoil of do I do it, do I not, or even years of taking that step and then having to pull back.
01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.079
Well, not to mention you don't make any growing.
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:53.119
Maybe that person sees you guys milling and they're like, that is it.
01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:54.159
That's the thing.
01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:58.960
I want to put all this freshly milled flour into my bread.
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:03.039
Because as you said, that awkward middle part, you're not gonna make a lot of money.
01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:29.360
Maybe people aren't ready for that full commitment, but they're so inspired by you working with local farmers, or they're so inspired by your sourdough pastry, or there's the person who wants to build the business and they focus all their efforts there and they are okay with that uncomfortable place where you're not making a lot of money, or maybe any or losing, but you have different things available to different types of bakers, all within one intensive.
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:34.000
And then the other thing I want to comment on is the group aspect of it.
01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:37.280
Like we intentionally keep these small, no bigger than 20 people.
01:07:37.519 --> 01:07:38.159
Oh, okay.
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:48.239
And well, that's one, so that we can give the the amount of attention that we want to give to this, but two, it starts to create accountability.
01:07:48.400 --> 01:07:52.559
We start to create a flywheel within the the group, right?
01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:57.920
It's easy to say, oh, I'm gonna start going for a walk every day with nobody checking you, you're not gonna do it.
01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:10.159
Whereas here, you're actually making a commitment to, okay, I saw this thing, I want it implemented in my bakery, and I'm committing to doing this in the next 30 days, and then everybody's checking in on each other, like, hey, did you do this?
01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:14.960
Or or or they're just giving updates and encouraging one another, which is so needed, I think.
01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:16.239
Yes, hard work.
01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:48.960
Usually by Sunday night, people are kind of pouring pouring some vulnerable parts of themselves out, and everybody else in the room notices when somebody says something like, I'm working 80, 90 hour weeks, I don't even know, I know nothing about whether I'm making money or not, whether whether I'm losing money, I'm just like putting one foot in front of the other, and then we come to find well, that person also tends to add the menu item every two days to their repertoire.
01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:56.800
Those types of patterns start to form, and so then that person goes back home and they're challenged to maybe simplify.
01:08:57.039 --> 01:09:09.840
And so then when they get very excited with the next shiny object, there's a whole group there that reminds them of what they said on Sunday night at dinner about how much pain this is causing.
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:16.800
And so now there's a whole different relationship with some of the bigger decisions.
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:18.800
So I love that.
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:20.560
That's that's really specific.
01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:30.079
And I I love that specificity because I feel like that's actually pretty relatable to a lot of creatives of wanting to just do all the things.
01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:48.399
But in a business, sometimes you have to decide what's the most important to just get the job done and having people keep you accountable and having that really close group of 20 people or less feels like a really healthy way to do that.
01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:51.760
So that's really exciting that you have that going on there.
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:58.399
And I'm sure that people are going to love hearing more about it and want to sign up after hearing us chat about it today.
01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:01.760
So I'd love to ask you my two closing questions.
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:06.319
And the first one, this podcast is called Saving Bread.
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:15.039
That's meant something different to everyone that I've spoken with so far and why I chose it because it it is kind of open-ended in that way.
01:10:15.199 --> 01:10:22.720
And I'd love to ask the two of you, and you can answer separately if you'd like, what does saving bread mean to you?
01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:23.760
That's a good question.
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:24.640
I know.
01:10:27.840 --> 01:10:47.119
For me, saving bread feels like kind of the reason that I jumped in on this with John too, and that is that I saw something fundamentally broken in our food system in the US.
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:54.319
I was very fortunate to live in this little bubble growing up Lebanese and like my mom making fresh food for us every day.
01:10:54.479 --> 01:11:00.159
There was even a story where she said, I used to steal an onion and we eat an onion straight like raw from the counter.
01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:01.760
So I was always surrounded by that.
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:07.199
And it wasn't until I reached college age that I recognized, oh, that's not normal.
01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:10.720
Like people don't know how to cook, people don't know how to do these things.
01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:27.199
And then stepping into the world of bread, recognizing not only do they not know how to cook or what ingredients, fresh ingredients are, but also the quality of what's out there is just like horrifying and it's not nutritious and it's not actually fueling your body.
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.520
It's not even nature anymore, you know?
01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:35.920
And so I think for me, that's what that is, it's this return to our natural biology.
01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:36.880
Yeah.
01:11:37.279 --> 01:11:37.920
That's beautiful.
01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:59.439
Yeah, for me, it's similar in the sense that bread making, as far as we know, sourdough has been around for 14,000 years and industrialization really disrupted our way of thinking about it.
01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:04.800
That's not to say that everybody should go back to being a medieval baker.
01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:09.600
I think uh there were some real challenges associated with being a baker at that time.
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:22.319
But there is a lot lost since industrialization, not only for bread, but for food, for uh the way in which we make things, the way in which we share things within our communities.
01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:40.479
And going to the future, I think saving bread it could be synonymous to saving ourselves in the sense that uh the world seems to be moving further and further in a host human direction.
01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:52.239
Uh started with sort of the machine takeover in the 1800s, and you have to wonder what the intention of some of the technology that's coming out today is over the course of time.
01:12:52.399 --> 01:13:08.880
But I would argue that there's beautiful human tradition in bread making that not only should be preserved, but should be passed on and thought about deeply at the root of how our communities are organized.
01:13:09.119 --> 01:13:19.840
I believe saving bread is the same as digging deep into what makes us human and how we interact with each other, how we form community.
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:29.439
If we understand it better, then I think we can do more to make an impact in those community-building activities.
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:31.920
Thank you for those answers.
01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:35.359
Those were incredible, and I agree with you.
01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:39.119
And you're doing the work big time.
01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:46.000
So I hope you feel really proud of that and really great about that.
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:58.239
But after spending the last hour and 20 minutes chit-chatting, I sort of have a feeling the two of you are already thinking about the next level and the next big dream.
01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.840
And I'm really excited to see what you continue to do.
01:14:01.920 --> 01:14:11.520
And I'm excited to watch, especially on your stories and your Instagram, the bakers that come in for the intensive programs and watch that all unfold.
01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:15.600
So, speaking of that, how can our listeners find you?
01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:24.239
Where should they go to visit your bakery, visit your website, Instagram, sign up for the intensive?
01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:26.720
Like, where can we find you and do all of that?
01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:47.199
Well, of course, if you are anywhere in the Phoenix metro area for any reason, we would greatly appreciate you stopping by and and hopefully you'd benefit too from spending some time in our space and picking up on the energy of our work through our products.
01:14:47.520 --> 01:14:54.399
We do a lot of the local farmers markets and also we have the location sort of spread across the Phoenix metro area.
01:14:54.800 --> 01:14:59.199
Virtually, I would say the best place to start is just follow us on Instagram.
01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:01.119
It's just at proofbread.
01:15:01.439 --> 01:15:07.439
From there, you can get links to our website, through the to the intensives, joining our team, all kinds of things from there.
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:20.079
There's already hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of videos on our YouTube that go all the way back to our garage bakery and sort of follow the journey of proof from the garage.
01:15:20.239 --> 01:15:24.720
So many bakeries have formed around the world just watching those videos.
01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:33.119
When John says that he's at the base of a movement, that was not something that that's I don't think that's an understatement.
01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:48.560
I mean, we started that YouTube by chance, and so many people have called, written, emailed us to let us know that they jumped in because of those videos, and now they're you know making bakeries.
01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:53.840
When we travel now, we are making unexpected connections all over the world.
01:15:54.079 --> 01:15:59.520
When our last intensive group, we had two people, two separate people fly here from Australia.
01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:03.760
In the one that's happening in August, we've got three people coming from Guatemala.
01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:07.439
So this is like a worldwide movement.
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:17.520
Yeah, of course, YouTube's a great place to look, but the intensive itself you can find at million dollarbaker.com slash intensive.
01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:23.359
That site also houses our online course, which is designed for people.
01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:33.520
There's many courses and the full course and designed to break down topics or to go through everything that we've learned over the course of decade at your own time.
01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:41.600
And it's different than how other people kind of what we've noticed as a trend on the like online learning community.
01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:45.760
This is just a one-time fee for a growing body of knowledge.
01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:49.359
So it's like you just get access and then you have that access forever.
01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:58.960
Yeah, so our full course at million dollarbaker.com, you pay once, and every year we add like a new season of material to it.
01:16:59.119 --> 01:17:02.560
So and it's just based on stuff that we're actively learning.
01:17:02.960 --> 01:17:03.520
Right.
01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:19.359
Because things really are not standing still for us, it would be silly to think that you know we're running the same bakery that we were running just a few years ago, and there's no chance that we'll be running the same bakery in a few years from now.
01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:37.760
Of course, so much carryover, but the decisions on what to keep, what to focus on, what to what to not do, though that's really our space is hard as bakers because our decisions function in a in a business that's not so easy to execute on.
01:17:37.920 --> 01:17:44.159
So if we make the right decisions at the right time, we uh get the right to continue.
01:17:44.399 --> 01:17:51.279
And if we make the right decisions at the wrong time, we might not be able to continue.
01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:55.920
That's been that's been a common lesson that I've taken away.
01:17:56.159 --> 01:18:03.680
We have made a few of the wrong decisions, meaning the right decisions at the wrong time, and then we found ourselves backpedaling to.
01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:21.920
We try to be honest about those things, whether it be in purse at the intensive or online, because those are hopefully you have some time to be on this patient journey that is not really a a quick way to, you know, have a reward.
01:18:22.000 --> 01:18:24.880
This is not a get-rich quick business.
01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:33.279
So instead, hopefully you have some time and hopefully you can make the right decisions when the time is right so that you can last a while.
01:18:33.439 --> 01:18:41.199
That's that's what we're we're after, building something that will be around, hopefully, after our time with it is done.
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:46.720
Well, thank you so much for sharing your time with me and with all of us today.
01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:52.159
I know our listeners are going to feel very inspired from hearing your story.
01:18:52.399 --> 01:18:56.560
I I'll end it for us, but we can keep chatting for a few minutes after.
01:18:56.720 --> 01:18:57.760
But thank you again.
01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:00.479
And this has been this has been a lovely conversation.
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:01.119
Thanks for having me.
01:19:01.279 --> 01:19:05.199
Thanks for the I really loved that conversation.
01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:19.680
One of the things that stayed with me was John and Amanda talking about how difficult it would have been back when they were hand mixing dough in a garage to even imagine what proof would eventually become and is still growing into.
01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:21.520
And I think there's something important in that.
01:19:21.600 --> 01:19:26.000
You don't necessarily need to know exactly where your bakery is going.
01:19:26.079 --> 01:19:35.840
You can make the next good decision, learn from the decisions that don't work, and continue figuring out what kind of business and baker you actually want to become.
01:19:36.399 --> 01:19:48.880
I also loved hearing how their definition of success has expanded beyond the bakery itself into their team, their farmers, their grain, their students, and the community surrounding all of it.
01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:56.960
Towards the end of our conversation, John talks about bread as a human tradition worth preserving and passing on.
01:19:57.039 --> 01:20:02.159
And that feels very aligned with why I started this podcast in the first place.
01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:14.000
So thank you so much to both John and Amanda for spending this time with me, for being so open about both the growth and the growing pains behind Proof.
01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:20.319
And if you are not already following them on Instagram, you can follow them at Proofbread.
01:20:20.399 --> 01:20:28.720
And you can also find their website, proofbread.com, and I'll make sure I put all of the links and everything that we discussed in the show notes.
01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:30.560
That's it for today.
01:20:30.800 --> 01:20:32.800
Thank you so much for tuning in.
01:20:32.880 --> 01:20:40.640
And if you have just a few seconds now to send this podcast to someone who you know would love to hear it, we would really appreciate it.
01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:46.720
Thank you for all of the love and support that all of you feed back into this every single week.
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:50.720
It means the world to us, and we love all of you so much.
01:20:50.800 --> 01:20:53.680
So until next week, bye friends.
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:59.439
Thank you for listening to the Saving Bread Podcast.
01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:05.520
Music by Joshua from Dope.
01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:15.600
I'm Allie White, and as always, happy baking and long live Real Bread.

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