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Hi, everybody, welcome to today's episode of Said Differently.
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I am your host, Jennifer Socora, on behalf of Troop, who brings you this program focused on the art and the science of bringing your go-to-market story to life.
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All things messaging, all things positioning.
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And the topic today is a really great one because this has come up a lot in our recent episodes with other guests, which is how AI is making it faster and easier to build and launch new features, faster and easier in the market, which is making it challenging for product marketers and marketing leaders to manage a coherent story.
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Sales is off chasing the last new feature and trying to figure out messaging around it.
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So we're going to really be focused on that topic today.
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And I have two amazing panelists as far as today's episode: Tamara Grominsky.
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I hope I did not butcher your name, Tamara, and Michelle Nieberding, both who we've met through the Product Marketing Alliance.
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Really excited to have them both here lending their perspective on this topic that they both equally feel pretty passionately about.
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So I'll let you each introduce yourself.
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Tamara, you can please start.
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Yeah, no problem.
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So I currently run a company called PMM Camp, which is a community and education company for product marketing leaders, where we talk about topics just like this.
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You know, I found that at one point in your kind of stage as a product marketer, it's really about learning from each other rather than learning about a particular individual.
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And so that's what I do.
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But before that, I was a product marketing leader for 15 years, mostly in the PLG space.
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So I think we'll have an interesting discussion today about even some of the nuances between sales led versus PLG and how that impacts today's talk.
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I love that.
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That's a great, great way to, yeah, I didn't even that didn't even occur to me.
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So I'm glad that we're gonna be bringing that up.
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Michelle, yeah, I love it.
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I I'm not part of the PLG world.
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So I think, like you said, that'll be really interesting to chat about.
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But am a part of PMM camp and I I can say that I love it.
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So big fan.
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Um yes, I'm Michelle Niebring.
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I'm the head of product marketing at a startup called Optiversal, and we do uh AI search for retail companies to get them found with all the craziness that's happening with how search is changing, which is super fun and interesting and uh scary at the same time, maybe.
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We'll talk about it, I'm sure.
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I'm like, I just don't want an agent buying everything on my behalf, but you know, there we go.
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Yeah, that's gonna be wild if that day comes.
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I got heavens knows what they'll end up ordering for me.
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Um uh but the two of you know each other as well, right?
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Yeah, we're besties.
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And we didn't, I didn't really plan it that way.
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It just kind of worked out that way for this episode.
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I love it.
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Sympatico, I think you asked us both what we wanted to talk about.
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We set the same topic, and we're like, let's just all get on a call.
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You absolutely did.
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I'm like, well, let's just consolidate this.
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This is great.
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Okay, so great.
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We're gonna have three voices on this conversation.
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So let me just kind of kick this off here.
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Um, so we've all lived in the pre-AI world.
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Um, you know, it and now AI with you know, cursor, clawed code, all the co-piloting tools.
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It is now accelerating product development and releases.
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I experience it every day as an active advisor for Troop.
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I'm on the Slack channel, I see what engineering is posting with their PRs, and they're like, here we go.
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This is shipped, this is shipped, and it's like multiple times a week.
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And some of it is little small stuff that doesn't warrant messaging, but other things are like, wow, you shipped that already?
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That's amazing.
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Um, so how have you guys experienced this first hand in your roles?
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Um, maybe give some specific examples of where you're seeing this.
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How does this come up in your work or with the interactions you have with other peers?
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Uh Michelle, start with that.
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Um, I mean, it it like you said, it happens all the time and it's so cool.
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And it's like you want to show off like your newborn child and how great the I don't know, it is.
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And you're like, wait a second, like what like what are we doing here?
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Um, I it's funny because I try to explain to my mom like what I do, and I was talking to her about this topic, and my mom doesn't know what I do, she's like, it's AI, whatever.
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That's about the extent of her knowledge.
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Yeah, I'm like, imagine pick pick like your favorite TV show.
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Say, I don't know, great British baking show, one of my favorites.
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Imagine you know a new episode is coming out every single week, and so you're planning to see it on that day of that week, and that's like where your headspace goes.
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Now imagine every single day you had a new update.
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Oh, this contestant made this or did that, or there was a space, like updates every single day, and you're like, no, I'm mentally prepared for the next episode next week.
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I'm not trying to hear, you know, new little updates happening every day about my favorite TV show or spoilers or whatever.
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And it's like kind of what it feels like right now.
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Like it's too much noise for customers to understand what is actually happening or what's impactful, or prospects to even know what you're doing.
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So I think what's happening now is like, yes, it's really cool that we can ship things more quickly.
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In fact, that part of it is probably a dream because we lived in the world where we're like waiting, waiting, waiting for the things that we've been promised from a product marketing perspective actually result.
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So like that's that's the pendulum swinging back.
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But this is also when I think two things become truly important.
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One is the story, um, which has always been the case, but even more so now.
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And then two is stakeholder management when the team gets so excited about building these things, and of course they want to show it off, and we do too, but you have to manage the expectations with them.
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Just because you built it doesn't mean we're gonna do a whole big launch around it at this point in time.
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And that kind of pressure of okay, well, we're building more and more and more in the next couple of weeks has become stronger.
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So I think product marketing, the role has become even more important again to tell the right story and to really hone in on what that stakeholder management looks like.
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Couldn't agree more.
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And we, you know, a troop, of course, we embrace that because that's where we're solidly playing in.
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But Tamara, what what what are you seeing with the camps that you run and hearing from other people?
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First of all, I love the metaphor, Michelle.
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I feel like we're living in like a love island style where you know there's new episodes every night.
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Um yeah, just to keep the metaphor going.
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But uh so I think I love the female voices, by the way, are choices of reference points here.
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Right.
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Um so I think that I talk to at least 10 PMM leaders one-on-one a week.
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And so what the value I have is I can actually see breadth in addition to my own consulting work that I do within companies.
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And so I think maybe highlighting some of that breadth might be helpful here.
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I'll also add, I kind of see two ends of the spectrum.
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So I think what we're talking about today is the reality for a lot of product marketers.
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But what I'm also hearing is that it's not the reality for a lot of other product marketers where, you know, they would expect their teams to be moving faster.
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They're seeing on LinkedIn and in private chats that other people are seeing this, and they almost have some FOMO of like, oh, well, why isn't my team moving faster?
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Why aren't we shipping?
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And so I just want to recognize for anyone who's listening, like, if that is you, you are not alone.
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Both scenarios can be equally true, and everyone's kind of living in different realities right now.
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But with that said, I completely agree with everything that Michelle just said.
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And I think for me, I've been speaking or thinking a lot and speaking to uh PMMs a lot about how does this change our relationship with our customers?
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So, Michelle, you kind of tease it a little bit.
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Like as humans, we cannot absorb this much information.
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And I think we have been used to in the past us pushing information out to our customers, whether that's through like monthly release notes or big launches.
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And I think the conversation needs to start to shift into how do we let customers self-serve the information they need at the time that they need it?
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Because some people do want to binge Love Island every single night, and other people just want to watch a 12-episode show once per week and get that like higher quality content.
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And it's almost like, how do we create both of those experiences and then let customers choose the experience that is right for them?
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That's awesome.
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I and we're definitely gonna dig in on the planned questions I have for this episode.
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We have a focused question around how the users or the end consumers of those updates are going to absorb all of that.
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Um, but I you brought up a really great point, which is the other end of the spectrum, Tamara, which is okay, you have the people who are handling rapid release cycles, but then you have those who are not only getting the FOMO feeling, but also like how do they message in the absence of that pace when their competitors or other players in their space might be doing that?
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So there's that tension as well.
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Like, is you it's one thing to feel the FOMO internally, but it's another to try to figure out how to position that in the market if your company's not shipping or and maybe they're deliberately not shipping.
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Maybe they're moving code quickly, but they're still holding it back before they're pushing it live, right?
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And and so there's a lot going on there.
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One thing I would also add is that we're product marketers who work at tech companies.
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We are a part of a bubble where we are talking about things and experiencing things that the average consumer, even a business consumer, is not.
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So I'll give an example.
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Yeah.
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QuickBooks, which is an accounting software.
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Um, I use QuickBooks and my dad uses QuickBooks.
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He has a small business, I have a small business.
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My dad is not sitting around thinking, wow, why with AI is QuickBooks and not shipping features faster?
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You know, oh, I'm starting to lose trust in QuickBooks.
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They're not innovative enough.
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He's not thinking that at all.
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Meanwhile, it could be me as a product marketer.
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I'm like, oh, it QuickBooks does feel a little outdated, you know?
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Um, and so I think we have to, as product marketers, also try to be as responsible as possible of thinking about who our actual customer is, what are their expectations.
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And then to your point, Michelle, how do we manage those expectations accordingly?
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That's really great.
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I love it.
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Okay, so let's dive into the first kind of more um planned question.
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So, product launches, we've all been through it, right?
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Um, there is this sort of we build these frameworks, these structures, these plans, and um, so that's been around forever.
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Um you know, and and we've always kind of thought about how to grade a product launch, or like, is this a major, is it medium, is it low?
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Like, because then that helps determine how big of a splash you make, what resources you pull in, how big of a scope is the launch plan that you need to manage end to end.
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But now with all of this stuff shipping more frequently, you know, how are we redefining what we consider a launch plan?
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Michelle, let's start with.
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Yeah, I mean, uh it's there's it's not just like shipping more stuff, it's like there's more places to ship it if that makes sense.
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Like the number uh clickup's done a great job on like TikTok, you know, from a corporate perspective.
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Like there's just so many uh or you know, oh to community.
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Oh yeah, to like to actually to talk about the things that we're shipping.
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So there's again in my world, which is you know interesting to think about this tomorrow, or you're so right.
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Like the past company I was at, my CEO was literally building things, shipping things, being like, Okay, product marketing, go enable.
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I'm like, I don't even know what you built.
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Like and this kept, you know, or like companies that are rebranding to whatever company name AI, and they're like, Oh, that's our launch.
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It's just we've rebranded to something AI, and that's gonna fix all of our problems.
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So it's not even one product, right?
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It's just like a fully rebrand because everyone else is doing it.
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So there's all these things going on, there's all these new uh ways to communicate it, channels to communicate it on.
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But I think what changes is like we it's not just waiting three months to launch something, right?
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I feel like historically product marketing was okay, you know, you you build that three-month plan, like you get three months to build your product, we have three months to like get all the things together to talk about it.
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Like last week I was building landing pages on Lovable because you know, my CEO broke his arm and can't build out the website right now, you know, things like that.
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Like there's ways to ship things faster, but I think the way we need to think about launches differently is not just like do we ship something or we're building something?
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It's like how how does this change how like the buyer, the customer, the market should think about it, right?
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Because when everything is this is my new favorite word, sloptimized.
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Um AI slop, slop.
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I know, right?
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It's like kind of fun.
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Um, unfortunately not take credit for it.
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I saw it in some LinkedIn post.
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I'm like, that's genius.
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It's a good portmanteau for sure.
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I mean t-shirts.
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Um but that's kind of if you're not doing it right, if you're like using AI ready and like all these buzzwords and you're just like literally slapping AI on something, I mean, it doesn't mean anything.
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And so when we're thinking about how we're redefining launches, you have to keep like I think the criteria um of what like why are you launching it?
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What is the narrative?
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The story becomes, like I said, 10 times more important because like you'll have cases where you're telling a really, really strong story and you have a set of features that tell that story really well, and then someone launches something that they think is like tier one, like the coolest thing in the world, and you're like, but that does not fit into the narrative that we're about to tell and why we're telling it.
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So um it even though you just it's calming the chaos, you just have a couple more cats to herd within what you're doing, I think.
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Yes.
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Yeah, I think um it's so interesting because we think about how like we've traditionally tiered launches.
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There's many different ways of doing it, but oftentimes the conversation comes back to um what is the level of customer value that we're delivering with this launch and what is the level of business value?
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If we have high customer value and high business value, we're gonna make it a tier one.
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I think we need to start over-indexing on the customer value right now, right?
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Because when we feel like we're constantly shipping things that could be valuable, um, oftentimes we are doing those things for us.
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We're like, oh, well, we're getting a lot of churn because of this thing.
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We want to ship this out, right?
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And it's like, well, maybe that is valuable to the customer, but like, is it or are we building it for ourselves?
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And so it's like, what is the customer narrative that we want to tell over the next three, six, nine, twelve months?
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Maybe that narrative is now a bit tighter than it used to be.
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We're not thinking in three-year increments, but we certainly should still be thinking about the next 12 months.
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And are we shipping something that allows us to actually move that story forward for the customer?
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And when is it enough?
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I think one little thing could be valuable and it could help move the story forward.
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But to go back to like the serialized kind of TV show example, I often like to think of like serialized novels as well.
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It's like, okay, some novels came out chapter by chapter, but they didn't come out sentence by sentence.
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You know what I mean?
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They waited until there was enough sentences to move the story forward, to package it into a chapter, but it had the plot to it, right?
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Oh my god, I love that.
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I just envisioned a teaser for this episode here.
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So amazing.
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And so I've been thinking a lot about that.
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I'm like a big reader.
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I did my master's in publishing.
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Um, and so I go back to books a lot.
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And it's like, how do we start packaging chapters rather than sentences and paragraphs?
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But also, we don't want to wait till the end of the novel either.
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So I think that's a fun metaphor we can maybe play with.
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It really is.
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I also had a recent episode of Said Differently with Tom Chris.
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Do you guys know him?
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He's from Fluvio Marketing, he's a big part of the product marketing alliance.
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He hosts a lot of their events.
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He um, he and the Fluvio team they published a report about how product marketing can close the revenue gap.
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And they were, he was, he made a really good point that I think actually fits in well with this theme, which is that product marketers need to shift left.
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And sometimes that's been really hard.
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But if product marketers can get ahead and get more strategic visibility and have a greater voice in actually what is being planned, even with that accelerant of AI poured on top of it, then you can anticipate what's coming down the road with the plot line, right?
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So now you can re can be proactive about thinking about your communication as opposed to reactive, which unfortunately I think a lot of product marketers find themselves in a reactive state, right?
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Somebody else makes the decision about what is getting developed in the product, and now it's product marketing's job to carry that water to the market.
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But his argument is shifting left.
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What do you both think of that?
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Uh, do you see an opportunity, an opening here for product marketing to get more strategic?
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.240
I mean, yeah, so I call that inbound.
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.880
So there's like inbound product marketing and outbound.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.599
I think I've always advocated for people to build that inbound muscle.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:33.119
But I'll also add to typically historically when we talk about inbound product marketing, we say, oh, we should bring insights to the product team to help them influence what they build.
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:39.200
But to bring us back to the book metaphor, what if product marketers were not the authors but the editors, right?
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.640
The product managers responsible for figuring out what are we building.
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:51.680
It is our responsibility to make sure, yes, we're helping them like build the right things, but more importantly, build them in the right order so we can tell the right story.
00:17:51.839 --> 00:18:00.799
So if you think about an editor, we're looking at the raw ingredients that are on the page and we're saying, wouldn't it be really great if we moved these couple paragraphs up into chapter two instead of chapter five?
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:06.160
That creates more tension, that creates more excitement, that you know satisfies the reader, whatever it might be.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:12.400
I I really think that that is our role within the inbound part of the product marketing world.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:12.799
Yeah.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.000
I don't know, Michelle, what do you think?
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:24.319
I mean, I think I think to build on that, and I've actually had to use this story recently for a similar situation where there was pressure to push things too quickly, and you're right, like where is it fitting into the story?
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.480
And um the analogy I used, so I I guess I'll ask you both, what pick what's your favorite animated movie?
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.319
Pick pick anything.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:34.480
Oh gosh.
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.240
I'm gonna go old school here and go with the OG Aladdin.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.839
Uh so yeah.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:41.519
Yeah, gosh.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.799
Uh I can't say I've watched a lot of animated movies.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:48.799
Yeah, I know.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.359
Okay, yeah, books over movies.
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.079
I also like Beavis and Butthead do America, but I don't know what that says about me.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.599
So uh I guess I just admitted that, but that's okay.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.559
But okay, so like Aladdin, whatever, Beavis and Butthead, whatever.
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.279
It all animated movies have this in common, right?
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.680
Where they get the story right before they build out the animations.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:32.480
And because of that, it takes less time to build, it's cheaper to build versus say something like a live action show, say Mission Impossible, where they record hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage and pay so much money to the actors to do this, and then they slim it down to like an hour and a half that you're watching in a movie theater for hours and hours of content that's been built.
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:42.559
So, what I to Tamara's point, like you want to start like an animated movie, you have to get the story right first and then build everything after that to make a good movie.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.640
There's really no bad animated movies.
00:19:45.119 --> 00:20:01.200
Why they got the plot right first, they got the story right first, they knew to Tamara to your point, like what what fit where, what chapters they were building and where to put things in, which is why it's been so powerful and so impressive, like what animated movies have been able to do.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:05.680
What are the new ones about like emotions or what like there's all really good new ones that have taken off?
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:13.839
And then you see, I don't know, maybe some live action films that either aren't the best, or you like I don't know, Scary Movie Six came out of millennial, I can't help it.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:25.519
And they were like all the talking about all these parts of the movie that were cut, and you're like, oh, you know, what a waste of money and and time for things that are just getting cut out of a movie.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:30.720
And so I think, you know, that it that goes back to the point is like you've got to be an animated movie, right?
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:36.960
Get the story right first and then ship it and tell that good story because otherwise it won't stick, it won't make sense back to the customer.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.680
Like again, yeah, reshipping things to ship things.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:41.119
That's that's really the question.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:43.039
Great.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:43.920
No, all right.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.240
So let's stick with the customer lens on this.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:58.000
So, how are they gonna absorb you you gave the analogy, Tamara, already about the QuickBooks between you and your dad, but I mean the communication strategy to your prospects.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.839
Um, I I I think we're all on the receiving end.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.359
We all use many different tools to do our jobs, right?
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:12.079
And we're constantly getting fed different updates, or you go in and there's something changed, there's something different.
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:22.559
Um, most of it I think we can absorb, but if it's at such a high pace or it's a jarring change and that's happening fairly often, that gets really difficult for users to absorb.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.559
So users are one group, but then there's the non-users who you hope one day will be users.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.000
And how do you get them?
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.279
So I feel like that you can almost even segment it further, right?
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:39.359
There's the people who are already on in your product who are using it and they have to absorb the change.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.839
That's more of a customer success, customer training kind of issue.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.519
But there's a story there too.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:55.279
And then there's the prospects who are like, Well, how how am I making sense of maybe I should just wait two more months before buying your product, right?
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.759
Because if you're shipping so much, then why don't I wait till there's some more goods?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
Stuff in there, right?
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.480
So you don't want to also give them cause to delay a decision.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.440
How do you guys how do we get our arms around this?
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.279
The customer comms part or the prospect comms part.
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.440
Yeah, I think there's obviously there has to be some consistency.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.880
So if we go back to you know the TV show analogy, right?
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.640
People that don't watch Love Island, I didn't watch it for a while.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.640
How do you get because we're all fighting for the same dollars, the same attention, right?
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:34.799
So how do you get someone who, I don't know, prefers watching The Bachelor over Love Island or whatever, like to get them to watch Love Island, right?
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:40.640
It's like that similar concept, and you have to keep that consistency of like, what do you stand for?
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.960
What is your true narrative from a high level?
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.359
Like, what are you doing to solve people's problems?
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:53.839
Now you might be doing something a little differently or solving a slightly different problem, but from like an umbrella narrative that should be consistent and remain the same.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.359
Like I I joked with my husband, like durability is so important.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:04.319
Like if you can compliment somebody, durability is actually up there with one of those top, you know, things that people maybe don't think about.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:11.039
And I think when you're the idea of like message durability is so important because it's it takes a step beyond consistency.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:12.480
Are you saying the same thing?
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.119
Sure.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:20.400
But does that message continue to resonate as the market changes, as things change, as customer ways of buying changes?
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.559
Tamara, to your point, like does that message still remain the same?
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.720
And you think of brands that have done this really well?
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:33.279
I don't know, Slack, for example, didn't they it I think it started as like a way to interact for video gamers or something?
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:50.480
Like Slack was not always meant to be a corporate messaging platform, but it was so good at what they did, this idea of like we're good at communicating, you know, helping people communicate and message each other, that they were able to build upon that core durable narrative in a way that really expanded them into like corporate necessity.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.240
Everyone must have Slack, right?
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.319
So that message remains the same.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:02.799
You're really good at the core of what you do, and everyone knows that to then eventually say, okay, when I'm looking for a tool to do X, I think of Y.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:04.880
And that's really what I think we're working towards.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.279
Yeah.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:05.839
Yeah.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.680
Yeah, I have a few thoughts here.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:11.279
Not sure where to take those first.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.319
I think um uh there was a couple questions.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.200
It was like, how do we message to both prospects and then also existing customers?
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:24.720
Equally, how do we message an innovative, fast-changing product when maybe people want stability?
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.119
Um, I'll take that last one first.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:35.920
So I do think that being honest with the prospect and the market about like where you are in your journey as a product is the best course of action.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:42.640
How I see a lot of people handle this well is something like a manifesto that paints, you know, the picture of what you believe in.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880
To your point, Michelle, those like durable values, that that direction that's probably not going to change.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.839
The thing that you believe needs to be different.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.000
And, you know, managing the expectation that this is not going to happen overnight.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:01.680
But if you believe in this too and you want this better, different world, come along with us for the journey.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.000
And here's some of the benefits of being along for the journey.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.759
You you get to help shape it, you get an inside track, whatever it might be.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.359
But then on the home page, being really clear about like this is what we do today.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.720
Here's the use cases we solve for the people whom we solve them.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:30.480
So I think that topic, but going back to the first topic, which is like, how does the messaging actually change between you know, messaging to a prospect versus messaging to a customer or a user now that we have, you know, things coming out faster and faster?
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.559
I think that's where like a messaging hierarchy comes in, which we often talk about messaging and positioning as like a very flat thing.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.039
We have messages and we have positioning.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:44.000
But I like to think of positioning as like the anchor or the foundation.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.480
And we can kind of go up or down.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:51.119
As we go up, we're going to more kind of cooler audiences, right?
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.720
So people who are maybe, you know, yes, prospects, mid-funnel, prospects top of funnel, people who've never heard of us before.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.400
And if we just went out, let's say we can use QuickBooks as an example again.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.799
Like at the very top of the funnel, what are we talking about?
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:04.880
We're probably talking about financial independence.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.279
We're talking about the power of entrepreneurship, about, you know, building something for yourself.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.160
They're not talking about profit and loss sheets, right?
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:29.279
Um, but then when they're below kind of the middle of the funnel and they're at the bottom of the triangle in the messaging hierarchy, that's where they're going to talk about, you know, all of the little features that are being shipped that are leveling up to specific story lines that they want to tell to their existing customers.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.279
So it's worth literally building one of those little, you know, messaging triangles.
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.160
At the top is like the prospect, it's like, what's your big bold message?
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.640
And at the bottom is like the literally the use cases under each of your products.
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.480
And then in the middle, it kind of gets filled up from there.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:44.960
That's a really great way to look at it, I think.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:27:00.720
Um, and you know, uh, it kind of segues um what you were both were talking about is this concept of a north star and the messaging durability as you phrased it, Michelle, is um and and and how the hierarchy unfolds underneath that north star.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:14.960
I know, like just as an example, um, you know, at Troop, we've been um working with some of our uh early customers here on helping them understand how their messages are performing against their pipeline.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:28.480
So they all have messaging plans and we get that loaded up, and then they start tracking how those messages are actually getting articulated in the real world, which is uh interesting analysis in and of itself, and then how they're performing.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:34.960
And we have one customer, will not reveal who they are, but they have three core pillars to their messaging hierarchy.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:47.839
So they're like these three primary themes, and oddly, those themes are underperforming compared to their average, you know, conversion rate and their average win rate.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.599
So when those messages are present, they're actually seeing a decrease in those rates.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:19.039
Um, so that's where you have to really kind of have the metrics to also challenge this, which is okay, let's not just assume that our North Star story, our big hierarchy actually is correct either, because as we are articulating these messages in the market, we want to kind of use those inputs to reshape it, not just simply the product velocity that's happening.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:27.279
Like, how do we come up and iterate and refresh the story, not just simply based on what's shipping now, but also what's working?
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.640
So, what do you guys think of that aspect to this, Tamara?
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.160
I think it's like an ongoing work.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.599
And I think it also depends on who your customer set is.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:46.720
So, again, going back to the beginning of the call, I mostly have worked in PLG, and when I work with clients now, it's often in the PLG space.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:52.160
And we have the luxury of having data and very fast sales cycles or buying cycles.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:00.640
And so for me, that's always meant like before we are ready for a tier one launch, we're testing every part of a landing page before we even get there.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:13.200
So we're testing on like our beta landing pages, different versions of headlines, subheads, um order of those stories, um, all of those things so that we can see, well, we know this one is going to perform better than this one.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:16.160
So I would say we have more of an advantage there.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:23.359
But I think if we just take like a more philosophical perspective on this, regardless of your go-to-market motion, what actually causes this?
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:28.079
Half the time, it's because we have a set of executives who sit in a room who want to tell a story.
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:35.279
And then we have another group of people who are actually, you know, building the work, shipping the work, talking to customers, getting real-time feedback.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:49.920
And there isn't enough trust between the two groups for the executives to be willing to hear the feedback of the people on the ground, but also the people on the ground sometimes don't take enough initiative to make it impactful enough for the executives to find a way to communicate.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:53.519
And so I think it's about just having more of a spirit of innovation.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:00.079
It's like, okay, if you're as open to shipping new product this quickly, why can't we iterate on our story that quickly as well?
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.480
And then just setting up the right like rituals and rhythms of business to have that.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.160
So the same way we have product meetings, why can't we have story and narrative meetings?
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:08.799
You know?
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:09.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:10.559
Something like that.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.160
I I mean it's nice.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.839
Um, you know, we didn't really have metrics to test messaging before, right?
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.079
I mean, to your point, like an executive had an opinion, and that that was that.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.400
It didn't matter if we had tested it with customers, or now there's like AI persona testing, which is a whole whole nother can of worms, I won't even go down that path.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:42.000
But it's this idea of you like you have to keep that North Star, and yes, we have to test what these pillars are, but in a world where I come from, where it's like very sales-led, very enterprise, takes a really long time.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:52.799
And if you mess up that story as you're working an enterprise deal that takes 12 or more months, that can get confusing and almost scary to the prospect, be like, oh, you said you were this and now you're this.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:05.440
I mean, again, my last company, we really focused on like IT and engineering, and almost overnight we updated the whole website, launched a new product, went just after marketers, and our customers were like, Are you still like selling that thing you sold me?
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:07.839
Are you still investing in the product that I have currently?
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:17.359
Like that whiplash was very real, and it came, it did come from the top down, which is a lot of pressure for product marketers to keep that North Star story star story.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:24.160
And then even the idea of testing pillars, like you can't even do that in that moment, which is almost scary.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.839
Because to your point, like you have you have to have that hierarchy.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:34.079
Now, within that hierarchy, how often those layers change is an interesting idea, right?
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.640
Because if you have that top-down pressure, you know, what do you do in that situation?
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:39.680
How do you communicate?
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:44.720
You do your best to say, here we're not changing our identity, we're we're expanding on it, right?
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:50.480
I used to tell people like if you think of the depths of the ocean, you don't necessarily know everything that lives down there.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:56.480
And just because a new species in the deep ocean pops up, it doesn't mean everything else in the ocean goes away, right?
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.400
That's a hard story to tell.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.079
Um, and scary when everyone when there's so many tools out there.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:06.480
I mean, there's hundreds of AI tools popping up overnight to solve like the same problem, right?
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:18.079
So it's like I feel for our customers, and you know, sometimes I'm a customer of our customers because they're dealing with so much noise, and like there's, oh, this tool can do this now, and this tool can do that now.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:28.000
So you really have to have some level of consistency and thank goodness now that we do have tech to test the messaging, because previously, as product marketers, it was kind of like, well, this is my best guess.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:35.440
I talk to customers, I'm getting feedback from sales, but I don't have the numbers to take up to the executives to say, hey, here's what's working and not working.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:50.000
Even if they have a strong opinion, it was kind of like you can only do so much to share your feedback because you didn't have hard metrics other than, you know, yeah, our churn is up or our conversion rate is lower, whatever that might be, but the direct correlation wasn't there.
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.079
So yeah, definitely.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:33:00.079
And I think those metrics in that kind of data cannot just help with the sort of stagnation around messaging, but also mercurialness around messaging, right?
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:09.759
And I think there's a risk here that with the amount of AI velocity for shipping more features is that we are refreshing too often.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.319
Um, so you guys have both brought up really good arguments about how to strike that balance.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:22.640
Just kind of closing out with the last question, I did ask one of my many LLMs that I subscribe to its thoughts on this.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.440
And it gave a good reminder on how a long-standing framework still applies.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.640
So I'd like to get your thoughts.
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:34.720
Its answer was before communicating any launch, ask yourself who needs to care?
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.440
Is it for customer prospects, technical debt, or a full market moment?
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:41.519
Why does it matter now?
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.559
So giving them release context, and how does this fit our larger story?
00:33:46.720 --> 00:34:04.000
I feel like the three of you hit on all of those during this discussion, but like looking ahead, what kind of practical advice would you give product marketers or marketing leaders to ground themselves and kind of just, you know, get some stability right now?
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:04.880
Tamara?
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.679
Yeah, you know, one thing I've been thinking a lot about recently is this idea of trust.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:16.880
I think that, you know, pre-AI, we went into most relationships with products and companies with trust, right?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:17.920
Until they broke it.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.519
And I think what AI has exposed is that now we actually enter most relationships with a lack of trust.
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.320
And we then expect someone to build up that trust.
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.760
It's like, I immediately assume that you've written this all with AI.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:34.320
I immediately assume you haven't given any thought, it's gonna change all the time, all of those things, right?
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.320
That's the mindset that a lot of people are going into.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:45.280
So I think how do you make sure that you are building on trust with your customer with everything that you release?
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:54.320
And so the I think the extra question I would add to that framework is is this building trust with our customers or is this, you know, breaking trust with our customers?
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.840
And just what would that look like?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:06.800
Well, if we've been talking about a narrative, a storyline, maybe a value proposition for the last six months, and now we're adding a supporting feature that's part of that story that they can tell is part of that story, that's adding trust.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:16.559
But if all of a sudden we're talking about something out of the blue that we've never talked about before, we're not giving any context of why it matters to them or the story, then that's going to start breaking trust.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.000
And so just using that filter to kind of just see is this the right thing to do.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:22.559
Yeah.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.480
And Michelle, what do you recommend?
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:30.880
What practical advice are you maybe even practicing yourself, or would you give to others right now?
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.199
I mean, I do agree trust is so important.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:37.599
It it's interesting because we see so many competitors doing like free audits.
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:43.360
I call it a claudit because they're basically putting a prompt in Claude to get some sort of audit out, and it's not even accurate.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.639
You know, it's saying things about a brand, no one's even looking at it.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:48.000
That isn't even true.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:55.280
And it's so I say that because again, it it you have to, like you said, you have to be honest, you have to like build that trust.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.760
Um, everyone says they can do all these things, but it's it's hard to dig through.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.360
And so I think it comes back to also just people connecting with people.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:16.000
The more that you can have conversations like this or like talk to your customer, get them on camera, get them like just chatting, like just informal conversations about like what is the reality that they're living in, and what are the words that they're using?
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:19.599
What keep you know, that it's been true forever, but what keeps them up at night?
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.480
Like that story is so powerful still.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.559
I mean, there's things that, like, yeah, back to QuickBooks.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:31.760
Uh my husband also was an entrepreneur, and you know, there are things that kept him up at night that he would actually, you know, message QuickBooks about.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.039
So that's also still very true.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:37.599
And I think the questions that you had are pretty spot on.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:43.119
I think one I might add would be like, what should someone do differently because this exists?
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:52.239
Because if the answer is nothing, then like maybe it's not a launch, like maybe it's not a priority, and that's what you put in your you know monthly updates somewhere.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.880
Like, if if they're not doing anything differently or it's truly not going to change their lives, it doesn't matter.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:12.639
I think the biggest thing in product marketing, kind of why I got into it, was if I mean, truly, if I can get someone promoted, if someone personally, like to me personally, can come back and say this product, this tool, this tip, whatever it is, helped me do better in my job.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.119
Like personally, that's what makes me happy.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:16.480
And I think that builds trust too.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.400
So despite all this AI, like humans matter, build trust.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:22.960
Um, last story I'll share because I thought this one was funny.
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.039
My and like kind of embarrassing.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:28.719
Um, my CEO, we were doing like a closed loss outreach, right?
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.800
Like, go reach out to account that we've lost that we've actually sent proposals to in the past.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:34.639
Just write them an email series.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:43.679
It's having a long day, decided to put in claw and be like, hey, write this, you know, three email series for prospects that we've lost and sent proposals to.
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.280
And I'm looking at the output, I was like, I didn't think about it, send it to my CEO.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.639
He goes, like, what?
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:53.440
I'm like, you I mean, I didn't totally read it, like, that's fair.
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:54.880
He's like, you know what?
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:57.039
Take out your notebook, which I always have.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.840
He's like, handwrite a note that you would like write to a friend about this.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.760
Like, literally write it down.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.480
Just don't look at your computer, write it down on paper.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.039
And it was so much better.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:08.880
It was so much more compelling.
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:16.400
And so, yes, AI is there to help us, but that human factor just like cannot be, you know, emphasized enough.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.360
So yeah, that's a great note to end this episode on, I think.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:26.159
Um, thank you both so very much for participating in this discussion.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:33.760
This is going to be a very special episode because we're on summer break right now, but this is a topic that I feel can't wait.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:35.519
So um thank you both so much.
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.400
Any kind of final comments or words or plugs?
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:39.119
No.
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:41.119
No, thanks for having us.
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:42.320
This is a great conversation.
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:43.119
All right.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.400
Thank you both so much.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:45.199
Bye.
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:46.239
Bye.
00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:21.679
Hi, everybody, welcome to today's episode of Said Differently.
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:32.479
I am your host, Jennifer Socora, on behalf of Troop, who brings you this program focused on the art and the science of bringing your go-to-market story to life.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.840
All things messaging, all things positioning.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:01:00.240
And the topic today is a really great one because this has come up a lot in our recent episodes with other guests, which is how AI is making it faster and easier to build and launch new features, faster and easier in the market, which is making it challenging for product marketers and marketing leaders to manage a coherent story.
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Sales is off chasing the last new feature and trying to figure out messaging around it.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.719
So we're going to really be focused on that topic today.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:14.959
And I have two amazing panelists as far as today's episode: Tamara Grominsky.
00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:23.280
I hope I did not butcher your name, Tamara, and Michelle Nieberding, both who we've met through the Product Marketing Alliance.
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Really excited to have them both here lending their perspective on this topic that they both equally feel pretty passionately about.
00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:32.319
So I'll let you each introduce yourself.
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Tamara, you can please start.
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:36.239
Yeah, no problem.
00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:46.239
So I currently run a company called PMM Camp, which is a community and education company for product marketing leaders, where we talk about topics just like this.
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You know, I found that at one point in your kind of stage as a product marketer, it's really about learning from each other rather than learning about a particular individual.
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And so that's what I do.
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But before that, I was a product marketing leader for 15 years, mostly in the PLG space.
00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.680
So I think we'll have an interesting discussion today about even some of the nuances between sales led versus PLG and how that impacts today's talk.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:08.400
I love that.
00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:12.159
That's a great, great way to, yeah, I didn't even that didn't even occur to me.
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So I'm glad that we're gonna be bringing that up.
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Michelle, yeah, I love it.
00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:17.759
I I'm not part of the PLG world.
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So I think, like you said, that'll be really interesting to chat about.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.360
But am a part of PMM camp and I I can say that I love it.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:24.719
So big fan.
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:26.719
Um yes, I'm Michelle Niebring.
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:41.199
I'm the head of product marketing at a startup called Optiversal, and we do uh AI search for retail companies to get them found with all the craziness that's happening with how search is changing, which is super fun and interesting and uh scary at the same time, maybe.
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We'll talk about it, I'm sure.
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I'm like, I just don't want an agent buying everything on my behalf, but you know, there we go.
00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:51.520
Yeah, that's gonna be wild if that day comes.
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I got heavens knows what they'll end up ordering for me.
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Um uh but the two of you know each other as well, right?
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.080
Yeah, we're besties.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:03.199
And we didn't, I didn't really plan it that way.
00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.919
It just kind of worked out that way for this episode.
00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:06.960
I love it.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.520
Sympatico, I think you asked us both what we wanted to talk about.
00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.120
We set the same topic, and we're like, let's just all get on a call.
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You absolutely did.
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I'm like, well, let's just consolidate this.
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This is great.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:17.360
Okay, so great.
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We're gonna have three voices on this conversation.
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So let me just kind of kick this off here.
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Um, so we've all lived in the pre-AI world.
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Um, you know, it and now AI with you know, cursor, clawed code, all the co-piloting tools.
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It is now accelerating product development and releases.
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I experience it every day as an active advisor for Troop.
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I'm on the Slack channel, I see what engineering is posting with their PRs, and they're like, here we go.
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This is shipped, this is shipped, and it's like multiple times a week.
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And some of it is little small stuff that doesn't warrant messaging, but other things are like, wow, you shipped that already?
00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:57.840
That's amazing.
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Um, so how have you guys experienced this first hand in your roles?
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:09.439
Um, maybe give some specific examples of where you're seeing this.
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How does this come up in your work or with the interactions you have with other peers?
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Uh Michelle, start with that.
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Um, I mean, it it like you said, it happens all the time and it's so cool.
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And it's like you want to show off like your newborn child and how great the I don't know, it is.
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And you're like, wait a second, like what like what are we doing here?
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Um, I it's funny because I try to explain to my mom like what I do, and I was talking to her about this topic, and my mom doesn't know what I do, she's like, it's AI, whatever.
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That's about the extent of her knowledge.
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Yeah, I'm like, imagine pick pick like your favorite TV show.
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Say, I don't know, great British baking show, one of my favorites.
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Imagine you know a new episode is coming out every single week, and so you're planning to see it on that day of that week, and that's like where your headspace goes.
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Now imagine every single day you had a new update.
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Oh, this contestant made this or did that, or there was a space, like updates every single day, and you're like, no, I'm mentally prepared for the next episode next week.
00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:10.480
I'm not trying to hear, you know, new little updates happening every day about my favorite TV show or spoilers or whatever.
00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.360
And it's like kind of what it feels like right now.
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Like it's too much noise for customers to understand what is actually happening or what's impactful, or prospects to even know what you're doing.
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.600
So I think what's happening now is like, yes, it's really cool that we can ship things more quickly.
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In fact, that part of it is probably a dream because we lived in the world where we're like waiting, waiting, waiting for the things that we've been promised from a product marketing perspective actually result.
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So like that's that's the pendulum swinging back.
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But this is also when I think two things become truly important.
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One is the story, um, which has always been the case, but even more so now.
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And then two is stakeholder management when the team gets so excited about building these things, and of course they want to show it off, and we do too, but you have to manage the expectations with them.
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Just because you built it doesn't mean we're gonna do a whole big launch around it at this point in time.
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And that kind of pressure of okay, well, we're building more and more and more in the next couple of weeks has become stronger.
00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:14.399
So I think product marketing, the role has become even more important again to tell the right story and to really hone in on what that stakeholder management looks like.
00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:16.319
Couldn't agree more.
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:22.560
And we, you know, a troop, of course, we embrace that because that's where we're solidly playing in.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:27.600
But Tamara, what what what are you seeing with the camps that you run and hearing from other people?
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First of all, I love the metaphor, Michelle.
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I feel like we're living in like a love island style where you know there's new episodes every night.
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Um yeah, just to keep the metaphor going.
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But uh so I think I love the female voices, by the way, are choices of reference points here.
00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:44.959
Right.
00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:51.040
Um so I think that I talk to at least 10 PMM leaders one-on-one a week.
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And so what the value I have is I can actually see breadth in addition to my own consulting work that I do within companies.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.959
And so I think maybe highlighting some of that breadth might be helpful here.
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.079
I'll also add, I kind of see two ends of the spectrum.
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:07.759
So I think what we're talking about today is the reality for a lot of product marketers.
00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:15.279
But what I'm also hearing is that it's not the reality for a lot of other product marketers where, you know, they would expect their teams to be moving faster.
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They're seeing on LinkedIn and in private chats that other people are seeing this, and they almost have some FOMO of like, oh, well, why isn't my team moving faster?
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:24.560
Why aren't we shipping?
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And so I just want to recognize for anyone who's listening, like, if that is you, you are not alone.
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Both scenarios can be equally true, and everyone's kind of living in different realities right now.
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.959
But with that said, I completely agree with everything that Michelle just said.
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And I think for me, I've been speaking or thinking a lot and speaking to uh PMMs a lot about how does this change our relationship with our customers?
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So, Michelle, you kind of tease it a little bit.
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.920
Like as humans, we cannot absorb this much information.
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And I think we have been used to in the past us pushing information out to our customers, whether that's through like monthly release notes or big launches.
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:08.160
And I think the conversation needs to start to shift into how do we let customers self-serve the information they need at the time that they need it?
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:19.360
Because some people do want to binge Love Island every single night, and other people just want to watch a 12-episode show once per week and get that like higher quality content.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:25.680
And it's almost like, how do we create both of those experiences and then let customers choose the experience that is right for them?
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:26.639
That's awesome.
00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:30.639
I and we're definitely gonna dig in on the planned questions I have for this episode.
00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:38.720
We have a focused question around how the users or the end consumers of those updates are going to absorb all of that.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:09:00.799
Um, but I you brought up a really great point, which is the other end of the spectrum, Tamara, which is okay, you have the people who are handling rapid release cycles, but then you have those who are not only getting the FOMO feeling, but also like how do they message in the absence of that pace when their competitors or other players in their space might be doing that?
00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.519
So there's that tension as well.
00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:16.720
Like, is you it's one thing to feel the FOMO internally, but it's another to try to figure out how to position that in the market if your company's not shipping or and maybe they're deliberately not shipping.
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:22.080
Maybe they're moving code quickly, but they're still holding it back before they're pushing it live, right?
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.240
And and so there's a lot going on there.
00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.799
One thing I would also add is that we're product marketers who work at tech companies.
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:36.879
We are a part of a bubble where we are talking about things and experiencing things that the average consumer, even a business consumer, is not.
00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:37.919
So I'll give an example.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:38.240
Yeah.
00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:40.720
QuickBooks, which is an accounting software.
00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.840
Um, I use QuickBooks and my dad uses QuickBooks.
00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:45.840
He has a small business, I have a small business.
00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:52.559
My dad is not sitting around thinking, wow, why with AI is QuickBooks and not shipping features faster?
00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.039
You know, oh, I'm starting to lose trust in QuickBooks.
00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:56.320
They're not innovative enough.
00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:57.919
He's not thinking that at all.
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.879
Meanwhile, it could be me as a product marketer.
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.240
I'm like, oh, it QuickBooks does feel a little outdated, you know?
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:13.919
Um, and so I think we have to, as product marketers, also try to be as responsible as possible of thinking about who our actual customer is, what are their expectations.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:18.000
And then to your point, Michelle, how do we manage those expectations accordingly?
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:19.279
That's really great.
00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:19.840
I love it.
00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.000
Okay, so let's dive into the first kind of more um planned question.
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.759
So, product launches, we've all been through it, right?
00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:35.600
Um, there is this sort of we build these frameworks, these structures, these plans, and um, so that's been around forever.
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:46.159
Um you know, and and we've always kind of thought about how to grade a product launch, or like, is this a major, is it medium, is it low?
00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:56.799
Like, because then that helps determine how big of a splash you make, what resources you pull in, how big of a scope is the launch plan that you need to manage end to end.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:08.080
But now with all of this stuff shipping more frequently, you know, how are we redefining what we consider a launch plan?
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:09.440
Michelle, let's start with.
00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:17.600
Yeah, I mean, uh it's there's it's not just like shipping more stuff, it's like there's more places to ship it if that makes sense.
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:23.200
Like the number uh clickup's done a great job on like TikTok, you know, from a corporate perspective.
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:27.120
Like there's just so many uh or you know, oh to community.
00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.840
Oh yeah, to like to actually to talk about the things that we're shipping.
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:37.120
So there's again in my world, which is you know interesting to think about this tomorrow, or you're so right.
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:43.679
Like the past company I was at, my CEO was literally building things, shipping things, being like, Okay, product marketing, go enable.
00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.120
I'm like, I don't even know what you built.
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:53.360
Like and this kept, you know, or like companies that are rebranding to whatever company name AI, and they're like, Oh, that's our launch.
00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.519
It's just we've rebranded to something AI, and that's gonna fix all of our problems.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:59.519
So it's not even one product, right?
00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:02.480
It's just like a fully rebrand because everyone else is doing it.
00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:08.720
So there's all these things going on, there's all these new uh ways to communicate it, channels to communicate it on.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:15.200
But I think what changes is like we it's not just waiting three months to launch something, right?
00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:25.279
I feel like historically product marketing was okay, you know, you you build that three-month plan, like you get three months to build your product, we have three months to like get all the things together to talk about it.
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:34.639
Like last week I was building landing pages on Lovable because you know, my CEO broke his arm and can't build out the website right now, you know, things like that.
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:44.240
Like there's ways to ship things faster, but I think the way we need to think about launches differently is not just like do we ship something or we're building something?
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:51.120
It's like how how does this change how like the buyer, the customer, the market should think about it, right?
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:55.200
Because when everything is this is my new favorite word, sloptimized.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:57.519
Um AI slop, slop.
00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:58.320
I know, right?
00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:59.519
It's like kind of fun.
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:04.320
Um, unfortunately not take credit for it.
00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:06.000
I saw it in some LinkedIn post.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:07.600
I'm like, that's genius.
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.440
It's a good portmanteau for sure.
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:12.799
I mean t-shirts.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:24.720
Um but that's kind of if you're not doing it right, if you're like using AI ready and like all these buzzwords and you're just like literally slapping AI on something, I mean, it doesn't mean anything.
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:34.639
And so when we're thinking about how we're redefining launches, you have to keep like I think the criteria um of what like why are you launching it?
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:35.360
What is the narrative?
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:54.240
The story becomes, like I said, 10 times more important because like you'll have cases where you're telling a really, really strong story and you have a set of features that tell that story really well, and then someone launches something that they think is like tier one, like the coolest thing in the world, and you're like, but that does not fit into the narrative that we're about to tell and why we're telling it.
00:13:54.399 --> 00:14:03.279
So um it even though you just it's calming the chaos, you just have a couple more cats to herd within what you're doing, I think.
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:06.799
Yes.
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:13.679
Yeah, I think um it's so interesting because we think about how like we've traditionally tiered launches.
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:23.440
There's many different ways of doing it, but oftentimes the conversation comes back to um what is the level of customer value that we're delivering with this launch and what is the level of business value?
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.279
If we have high customer value and high business value, we're gonna make it a tier one.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:33.679
I think we need to start over-indexing on the customer value right now, right?
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:38.879
Because when we feel like we're constantly shipping things that could be valuable, um, oftentimes we are doing those things for us.
00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:41.440
We're like, oh, well, we're getting a lot of churn because of this thing.
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:43.200
We want to ship this out, right?
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:48.320
And it's like, well, maybe that is valuable to the customer, but like, is it or are we building it for ourselves?
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:54.639
And so it's like, what is the customer narrative that we want to tell over the next three, six, nine, twelve months?
00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.200
Maybe that narrative is now a bit tighter than it used to be.
00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:02.240
We're not thinking in three-year increments, but we certainly should still be thinking about the next 12 months.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:09.519
And are we shipping something that allows us to actually move that story forward for the customer?
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.600
And when is it enough?
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.639
I think one little thing could be valuable and it could help move the story forward.
00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:23.519
But to go back to like the serialized kind of TV show example, I often like to think of like serialized novels as well.
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:28.879
It's like, okay, some novels came out chapter by chapter, but they didn't come out sentence by sentence.
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:29.679
You know what I mean?
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:36.240
They waited until there was enough sentences to move the story forward, to package it into a chapter, but it had the plot to it, right?
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:37.519
Oh my god, I love that.
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.480
I just envisioned a teaser for this episode here.
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:41.919
So amazing.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:43.440
And so I've been thinking a lot about that.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:44.399
I'm like a big reader.
00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:46.320
I did my master's in publishing.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:48.240
Um, and so I go back to books a lot.
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.240
And it's like, how do we start packaging chapters rather than sentences and paragraphs?
00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:56.639
But also, we don't want to wait till the end of the novel either.
00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.799
So I think that's a fun metaphor we can maybe play with.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.159
It really is.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:04.080
I also had a recent episode of Said Differently with Tom Chris.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:04.879
Do you guys know him?
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.039
He's from Fluvio Marketing, he's a big part of the product marketing alliance.
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:10.799
He hosts a lot of their events.
00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:17.200
He um, he and the Fluvio team they published a report about how product marketing can close the revenue gap.
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:25.120
And they were, he was, he made a really good point that I think actually fits in well with this theme, which is that product marketers need to shift left.
00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:27.120
And sometimes that's been really hard.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:44.559
But if product marketers can get ahead and get more strategic visibility and have a greater voice in actually what is being planned, even with that accelerant of AI poured on top of it, then you can anticipate what's coming down the road with the plot line, right?
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:56.000
So now you can re can be proactive about thinking about your communication as opposed to reactive, which unfortunately I think a lot of product marketers find themselves in a reactive state, right?
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:03.440
Somebody else makes the decision about what is getting developed in the product, and now it's product marketing's job to carry that water to the market.
00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:06.000
But his argument is shifting left.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:07.680
What do you both think of that?
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:13.440
Uh, do you see an opportunity, an opening here for product marketing to get more strategic?
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.240
I mean, yeah, so I call that inbound.
00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.880
So there's like inbound product marketing and outbound.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.599
I think I've always advocated for people to build that inbound muscle.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:33.119
But I'll also add to typically historically when we talk about inbound product marketing, we say, oh, we should bring insights to the product team to help them influence what they build.
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:39.200
But to bring us back to the book metaphor, what if product marketers were not the authors but the editors, right?
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.640
The product managers responsible for figuring out what are we building.
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:51.680
It is our responsibility to make sure, yes, we're helping them like build the right things, but more importantly, build them in the right order so we can tell the right story.
00:17:51.839 --> 00:18:00.799
So if you think about an editor, we're looking at the raw ingredients that are on the page and we're saying, wouldn't it be really great if we moved these couple paragraphs up into chapter two instead of chapter five?
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:06.160
That creates more tension, that creates more excitement, that you know satisfies the reader, whatever it might be.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:12.400
I I really think that that is our role within the inbound part of the product marketing world.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:12.799
Yeah.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.000
I don't know, Michelle, what do you think?
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:24.319
I mean, I think I think to build on that, and I've actually had to use this story recently for a similar situation where there was pressure to push things too quickly, and you're right, like where is it fitting into the story?
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.480
And um the analogy I used, so I I guess I'll ask you both, what pick what's your favorite animated movie?
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.319
Pick pick anything.
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:34.480
Oh gosh.
00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.240
I'm gonna go old school here and go with the OG Aladdin.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:39.839
Uh so yeah.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:41.519
Yeah, gosh.
00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.799
Uh I can't say I've watched a lot of animated movies.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:48.799
Yeah, I know.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.359
Okay, yeah, books over movies.
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.079
I also like Beavis and Butthead do America, but I don't know what that says about me.
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.599
So uh I guess I just admitted that, but that's okay.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.559
But okay, so like Aladdin, whatever, Beavis and Butthead, whatever.
00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.279
It all animated movies have this in common, right?
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.680
Where they get the story right before they build out the animations.
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:32.480
And because of that, it takes less time to build, it's cheaper to build versus say something like a live action show, say Mission Impossible, where they record hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage and pay so much money to the actors to do this, and then they slim it down to like an hour and a half that you're watching in a movie theater for hours and hours of content that's been built.
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:42.559
So, what I to Tamara's point, like you want to start like an animated movie, you have to get the story right first and then build everything after that to make a good movie.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.640
There's really no bad animated movies.
00:19:45.119 --> 00:20:01.200
Why they got the plot right first, they got the story right first, they knew to Tamara to your point, like what what fit where, what chapters they were building and where to put things in, which is why it's been so powerful and so impressive, like what animated movies have been able to do.
00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:05.680
What are the new ones about like emotions or what like there's all really good new ones that have taken off?
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:13.839
And then you see, I don't know, maybe some live action films that either aren't the best, or you like I don't know, Scary Movie Six came out of millennial, I can't help it.
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:25.519
And they were like all the talking about all these parts of the movie that were cut, and you're like, oh, you know, what a waste of money and and time for things that are just getting cut out of a movie.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:30.720
And so I think, you know, that it that goes back to the point is like you've got to be an animated movie, right?
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:36.960
Get the story right first and then ship it and tell that good story because otherwise it won't stick, it won't make sense back to the customer.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.680
Like again, yeah, reshipping things to ship things.
00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:41.119
That's that's really the question.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:43.039
Great.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:43.920
No, all right.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.240
So let's stick with the customer lens on this.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:58.000
So, how are they gonna absorb you you gave the analogy, Tamara, already about the QuickBooks between you and your dad, but I mean the communication strategy to your prospects.
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.839
Um, I I I think we're all on the receiving end.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.359
We all use many different tools to do our jobs, right?
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:12.079
And we're constantly getting fed different updates, or you go in and there's something changed, there's something different.
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:22.559
Um, most of it I think we can absorb, but if it's at such a high pace or it's a jarring change and that's happening fairly often, that gets really difficult for users to absorb.
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:28.559
So users are one group, but then there's the non-users who you hope one day will be users.
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.000
And how do you get them?
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.279
So I feel like that you can almost even segment it further, right?
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:39.359
There's the people who are already on in your product who are using it and they have to absorb the change.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:43.839
That's more of a customer success, customer training kind of issue.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.519
But there's a story there too.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:55.279
And then there's the prospects who are like, Well, how how am I making sense of maybe I should just wait two more months before buying your product, right?
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.759
Because if you're shipping so much, then why don't I wait till there's some more goods?
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
Stuff in there, right?
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.480
So you don't want to also give them cause to delay a decision.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.440
How do you guys how do we get our arms around this?
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.279
The customer comms part or the prospect comms part.
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.440
Yeah, I think there's obviously there has to be some consistency.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.880
So if we go back to you know the TV show analogy, right?
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.640
People that don't watch Love Island, I didn't watch it for a while.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:26.640
How do you get because we're all fighting for the same dollars, the same attention, right?
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:34.799
So how do you get someone who, I don't know, prefers watching The Bachelor over Love Island or whatever, like to get them to watch Love Island, right?
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:40.640
It's like that similar concept, and you have to keep that consistency of like, what do you stand for?
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.960
What is your true narrative from a high level?
00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.359
Like, what are you doing to solve people's problems?
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:53.839
Now you might be doing something a little differently or solving a slightly different problem, but from like an umbrella narrative that should be consistent and remain the same.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.359
Like I I joked with my husband, like durability is so important.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:04.319
Like if you can compliment somebody, durability is actually up there with one of those top, you know, things that people maybe don't think about.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:11.039
And I think when you're the idea of like message durability is so important because it's it takes a step beyond consistency.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:12.480
Are you saying the same thing?
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.119
Sure.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:20.400
But does that message continue to resonate as the market changes, as things change, as customer ways of buying changes?
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.559
Tamara, to your point, like does that message still remain the same?
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.720
And you think of brands that have done this really well?
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:33.279
I don't know, Slack, for example, didn't they it I think it started as like a way to interact for video gamers or something?
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:50.480
Like Slack was not always meant to be a corporate messaging platform, but it was so good at what they did, this idea of like we're good at communicating, you know, helping people communicate and message each other, that they were able to build upon that core durable narrative in a way that really expanded them into like corporate necessity.
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.240
Everyone must have Slack, right?
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.319
So that message remains the same.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:02.799
You're really good at the core of what you do, and everyone knows that to then eventually say, okay, when I'm looking for a tool to do X, I think of Y.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:04.880
And that's really what I think we're working towards.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:05.279
Yeah.
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:05.839
Yeah.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:09.680
Yeah, I have a few thoughts here.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:11.279
Not sure where to take those first.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.319
I think um uh there was a couple questions.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.200
It was like, how do we message to both prospects and then also existing customers?
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:24.720
Equally, how do we message an innovative, fast-changing product when maybe people want stability?
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.119
Um, I'll take that last one first.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:35.920
So I do think that being honest with the prospect and the market about like where you are in your journey as a product is the best course of action.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:42.640
How I see a lot of people handle this well is something like a manifesto that paints, you know, the picture of what you believe in.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880
To your point, Michelle, those like durable values, that that direction that's probably not going to change.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.839
The thing that you believe needs to be different.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.000
And, you know, managing the expectation that this is not going to happen overnight.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:01.680
But if you believe in this too and you want this better, different world, come along with us for the journey.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.000
And here's some of the benefits of being along for the journey.
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.759
You you get to help shape it, you get an inside track, whatever it might be.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:13.359
But then on the home page, being really clear about like this is what we do today.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.720
Here's the use cases we solve for the people whom we solve them.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:30.480
So I think that topic, but going back to the first topic, which is like, how does the messaging actually change between you know, messaging to a prospect versus messaging to a customer or a user now that we have, you know, things coming out faster and faster?
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.559
I think that's where like a messaging hierarchy comes in, which we often talk about messaging and positioning as like a very flat thing.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.039
We have messages and we have positioning.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:44.000
But I like to think of positioning as like the anchor or the foundation.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.480
And we can kind of go up or down.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:51.119
As we go up, we're going to more kind of cooler audiences, right?
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.720
So people who are maybe, you know, yes, prospects, mid-funnel, prospects top of funnel, people who've never heard of us before.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.400
And if we just went out, let's say we can use QuickBooks as an example again.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:02.799
Like at the very top of the funnel, what are we talking about?
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:04.880
We're probably talking about financial independence.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.279
We're talking about the power of entrepreneurship, about, you know, building something for yourself.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.160
They're not talking about profit and loss sheets, right?
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:29.279
Um, but then when they're below kind of the middle of the funnel and they're at the bottom of the triangle in the messaging hierarchy, that's where they're going to talk about, you know, all of the little features that are being shipped that are leveling up to specific story lines that they want to tell to their existing customers.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.279
So it's worth literally building one of those little, you know, messaging triangles.
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.160
At the top is like the prospect, it's like, what's your big bold message?
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.640
And at the bottom is like the literally the use cases under each of your products.
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.480
And then in the middle, it kind of gets filled up from there.
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:44.960
That's a really great way to look at it, I think.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:27:00.720
Um, and you know, uh, it kind of segues um what you were both were talking about is this concept of a north star and the messaging durability as you phrased it, Michelle, is um and and and how the hierarchy unfolds underneath that north star.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:14.960
I know, like just as an example, um, you know, at Troop, we've been um working with some of our uh early customers here on helping them understand how their messages are performing against their pipeline.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:28.480
So they all have messaging plans and we get that loaded up, and then they start tracking how those messages are actually getting articulated in the real world, which is uh interesting analysis in and of itself, and then how they're performing.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:34.960
And we have one customer, will not reveal who they are, but they have three core pillars to their messaging hierarchy.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:47.839
So they're like these three primary themes, and oddly, those themes are underperforming compared to their average, you know, conversion rate and their average win rate.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:53.599
So when those messages are present, they're actually seeing a decrease in those rates.
00:27:53.759 --> 00:28:19.039
Um, so that's where you have to really kind of have the metrics to also challenge this, which is okay, let's not just assume that our North Star story, our big hierarchy actually is correct either, because as we are articulating these messages in the market, we want to kind of use those inputs to reshape it, not just simply the product velocity that's happening.
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:27.279
Like, how do we come up and iterate and refresh the story, not just simply based on what's shipping now, but also what's working?
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.640
So, what do you guys think of that aspect to this, Tamara?
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:36.160
I think it's like an ongoing work.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.599
And I think it also depends on who your customer set is.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:46.720
So, again, going back to the beginning of the call, I mostly have worked in PLG, and when I work with clients now, it's often in the PLG space.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:52.160
And we have the luxury of having data and very fast sales cycles or buying cycles.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:29:00.640
And so for me, that's always meant like before we are ready for a tier one launch, we're testing every part of a landing page before we even get there.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:13.200
So we're testing on like our beta landing pages, different versions of headlines, subheads, um order of those stories, um, all of those things so that we can see, well, we know this one is going to perform better than this one.
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:16.160
So I would say we have more of an advantage there.
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:23.359
But I think if we just take like a more philosophical perspective on this, regardless of your go-to-market motion, what actually causes this?
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:28.079
Half the time, it's because we have a set of executives who sit in a room who want to tell a story.
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:35.279
And then we have another group of people who are actually, you know, building the work, shipping the work, talking to customers, getting real-time feedback.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:49.920
And there isn't enough trust between the two groups for the executives to be willing to hear the feedback of the people on the ground, but also the people on the ground sometimes don't take enough initiative to make it impactful enough for the executives to find a way to communicate.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:53.519
And so I think it's about just having more of a spirit of innovation.
00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:00.079
It's like, okay, if you're as open to shipping new product this quickly, why can't we iterate on our story that quickly as well?
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.480
And then just setting up the right like rituals and rhythms of business to have that.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.160
So the same way we have product meetings, why can't we have story and narrative meetings?
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:08.799
You know?
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:09.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:10.559
Something like that.
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:12.160
I I mean it's nice.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.839
Um, you know, we didn't really have metrics to test messaging before, right?
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:20.079
I mean, to your point, like an executive had an opinion, and that that was that.
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.400
It didn't matter if we had tested it with customers, or now there's like AI persona testing, which is a whole whole nother can of worms, I won't even go down that path.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:42.000
But it's this idea of you like you have to keep that North Star, and yes, we have to test what these pillars are, but in a world where I come from, where it's like very sales-led, very enterprise, takes a really long time.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:52.799
And if you mess up that story as you're working an enterprise deal that takes 12 or more months, that can get confusing and almost scary to the prospect, be like, oh, you said you were this and now you're this.
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:05.440
I mean, again, my last company, we really focused on like IT and engineering, and almost overnight we updated the whole website, launched a new product, went just after marketers, and our customers were like, Are you still like selling that thing you sold me?
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:07.839
Are you still investing in the product that I have currently?
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:17.359
Like that whiplash was very real, and it came, it did come from the top down, which is a lot of pressure for product marketers to keep that North Star story star story.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:24.160
And then even the idea of testing pillars, like you can't even do that in that moment, which is almost scary.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.839
Because to your point, like you have you have to have that hierarchy.
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:34.079
Now, within that hierarchy, how often those layers change is an interesting idea, right?
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.640
Because if you have that top-down pressure, you know, what do you do in that situation?
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:39.680
How do you communicate?
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:44.720
You do your best to say, here we're not changing our identity, we're we're expanding on it, right?
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:50.480
I used to tell people like if you think of the depths of the ocean, you don't necessarily know everything that lives down there.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:56.480
And just because a new species in the deep ocean pops up, it doesn't mean everything else in the ocean goes away, right?
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.400
That's a hard story to tell.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.079
Um, and scary when everyone when there's so many tools out there.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:06.480
I mean, there's hundreds of AI tools popping up overnight to solve like the same problem, right?
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:18.079
So it's like I feel for our customers, and you know, sometimes I'm a customer of our customers because they're dealing with so much noise, and like there's, oh, this tool can do this now, and this tool can do that now.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:28.000
So you really have to have some level of consistency and thank goodness now that we do have tech to test the messaging, because previously, as product marketers, it was kind of like, well, this is my best guess.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:35.440
I talk to customers, I'm getting feedback from sales, but I don't have the numbers to take up to the executives to say, hey, here's what's working and not working.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:50.000
Even if they have a strong opinion, it was kind of like you can only do so much to share your feedback because you didn't have hard metrics other than, you know, yeah, our churn is up or our conversion rate is lower, whatever that might be, but the direct correlation wasn't there.
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.079
So yeah, definitely.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:33:00.079
And I think those metrics in that kind of data cannot just help with the sort of stagnation around messaging, but also mercurialness around messaging, right?
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:09.759
And I think there's a risk here that with the amount of AI velocity for shipping more features is that we are refreshing too often.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.319
Um, so you guys have both brought up really good arguments about how to strike that balance.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:22.640
Just kind of closing out with the last question, I did ask one of my many LLMs that I subscribe to its thoughts on this.
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.440
And it gave a good reminder on how a long-standing framework still applies.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.640
So I'd like to get your thoughts.
00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:34.720
Its answer was before communicating any launch, ask yourself who needs to care?
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.440
Is it for customer prospects, technical debt, or a full market moment?
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:41.519
Why does it matter now?
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:46.559
So giving them release context, and how does this fit our larger story?
00:33:46.720 --> 00:34:04.000
I feel like the three of you hit on all of those during this discussion, but like looking ahead, what kind of practical advice would you give product marketers or marketing leaders to ground themselves and kind of just, you know, get some stability right now?
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:04.880
Tamara?
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.679
Yeah, you know, one thing I've been thinking a lot about recently is this idea of trust.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:16.880
I think that, you know, pre-AI, we went into most relationships with products and companies with trust, right?
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:17.920
Until they broke it.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.519
And I think what AI has exposed is that now we actually enter most relationships with a lack of trust.
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.320
And we then expect someone to build up that trust.
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.760
It's like, I immediately assume that you've written this all with AI.
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:34.320
I immediately assume you haven't given any thought, it's gonna change all the time, all of those things, right?
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.320
That's the mindset that a lot of people are going into.
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:45.280
So I think how do you make sure that you are building on trust with your customer with everything that you release?
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:54.320
And so the I think the extra question I would add to that framework is is this building trust with our customers or is this, you know, breaking trust with our customers?
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.840
And just what would that look like?
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:06.800
Well, if we've been talking about a narrative, a storyline, maybe a value proposition for the last six months, and now we're adding a supporting feature that's part of that story that they can tell is part of that story, that's adding trust.
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:16.559
But if all of a sudden we're talking about something out of the blue that we've never talked about before, we're not giving any context of why it matters to them or the story, then that's going to start breaking trust.
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.000
And so just using that filter to kind of just see is this the right thing to do.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:22.559
Yeah.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.480
And Michelle, what do you recommend?
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:30.880
What practical advice are you maybe even practicing yourself, or would you give to others right now?
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.199
I mean, I do agree trust is so important.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:37.599
It it's interesting because we see so many competitors doing like free audits.
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:43.360
I call it a claudit because they're basically putting a prompt in Claude to get some sort of audit out, and it's not even accurate.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.639
You know, it's saying things about a brand, no one's even looking at it.
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:48.000
That isn't even true.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:55.280
And it's so I say that because again, it it you have to, like you said, you have to be honest, you have to like build that trust.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.760
Um, everyone says they can do all these things, but it's it's hard to dig through.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.360
And so I think it comes back to also just people connecting with people.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:16.000
The more that you can have conversations like this or like talk to your customer, get them on camera, get them like just chatting, like just informal conversations about like what is the reality that they're living in, and what are the words that they're using?
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:19.599
What keep you know, that it's been true forever, but what keeps them up at night?
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:22.480
Like that story is so powerful still.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.559
I mean, there's things that, like, yeah, back to QuickBooks.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:31.760
Uh my husband also was an entrepreneur, and you know, there are things that kept him up at night that he would actually, you know, message QuickBooks about.
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.039
So that's also still very true.
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:37.599
And I think the questions that you had are pretty spot on.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:43.119
I think one I might add would be like, what should someone do differently because this exists?
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:52.239
Because if the answer is nothing, then like maybe it's not a launch, like maybe it's not a priority, and that's what you put in your you know monthly updates somewhere.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:58.880
Like, if if they're not doing anything differently or it's truly not going to change their lives, it doesn't matter.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:12.639
I think the biggest thing in product marketing, kind of why I got into it, was if I mean, truly, if I can get someone promoted, if someone personally, like to me personally, can come back and say this product, this tool, this tip, whatever it is, helped me do better in my job.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.119
Like personally, that's what makes me happy.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:16.480
And I think that builds trust too.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:20.400
So despite all this AI, like humans matter, build trust.
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:22.960
Um, last story I'll share because I thought this one was funny.
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.039
My and like kind of embarrassing.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:28.719
Um, my CEO, we were doing like a closed loss outreach, right?
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.800
Like, go reach out to account that we've lost that we've actually sent proposals to in the past.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:34.639
Just write them an email series.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:43.679
It's having a long day, decided to put in claw and be like, hey, write this, you know, three email series for prospects that we've lost and sent proposals to.
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.280
And I'm looking at the output, I was like, I didn't think about it, send it to my CEO.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.639
He goes, like, what?
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:53.440
I'm like, you I mean, I didn't totally read it, like, that's fair.
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:54.880
He's like, you know what?
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:57.039
Take out your notebook, which I always have.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.840
He's like, handwrite a note that you would like write to a friend about this.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.760
Like, literally write it down.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.480
Just don't look at your computer, write it down on paper.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.039
And it was so much better.
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:08.880
It was so much more compelling.
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:16.400
And so, yes, AI is there to help us, but that human factor just like cannot be, you know, emphasized enough.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.360
So yeah, that's a great note to end this episode on, I think.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:26.159
Um, thank you both so very much for participating in this discussion.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:33.760
This is going to be a very special episode because we're on summer break right now, but this is a topic that I feel can't wait.
00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:35.519
So um thank you both so much.
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.400
Any kind of final comments or words or plugs?
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:39.119
No.
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:41.119
No, thanks for having us.
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:42.320
This is a great conversation.
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:43.119
All right.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:44.400
Thank you both so much.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:45.199
Bye.
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:46.239
Bye.
