36: Now, let's talk about leaning the ladder (finally)

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Welcome to another episode of Runtime Arguments. It's our pleasure to be with you today to talk about, I don't know, something. Wolf's got something to talk about. I think it's going to be really interesting, and I'm looking forward to it. He'll explain it in a couple of minutes.
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Uh, this is our, uh, episode 36, our 37th episode. My name is Jim McQuillan, and with me today, as always, is my great friend, Wolf.
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Hey everybody, I'm super happy to be here as usual.
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Alright, so today we're going to talk about getting the job done. It sounds like a productivity episode, and maybe it is a little bit.
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Sort of.
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Wolf says it's not. We'll see, we'll let you decide.
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What is this?
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that thing you're short on isn't time, is what he wants to get to. And that job is never actually done. We'll see about that. Um… Before we get into that, the meat of the episode, feedback. Do we have any feedback, Wolf?
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Uh, I think we absolutely do. I've got some. Um, I had conversations face-to-face.
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with a couple of people who listen to the show.
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And they both wanted to talk about.
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How was your week?
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Um, and one of them said… You know, there are probably people listening who just want to get to the meat of the show.
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Um, and how's your week is 6 minutes, or whatever, in between them and what they care about.
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And he didn't actually say HE didn't like Howcher Week.
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Um, he just said there might be people who don't like it, so that was one thing.
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And the other side of that was another person. I didn't mention the feedback I just said to him. We just happened to be talking about the podcast, and he said.
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I'm not really, um, always the right audience for the technical details, but I love How's Your Week? because it reminds me of.
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You, and having lunch with you, and… the things you and me, Jim, uh, are the reason that makes us have this podcast, what it's like to actually have a real conversation. So, two different sides of the same question. That was one piece of feedback.
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Umm.
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And I have a thing, I don't know if this is feedback, or if it's just a personal note, many, many times.
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In the course of the podcast, everybody out there, you've heard me say at least one of these two things I really don't like about myself.
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One of them is, I am too loud.
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Um, and the other thing is, I talk too much.
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Especially… When somebody asks me a question.
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Um… I could blame things, like… When you have a specific, uh… knowledge about something. Usually it's complicated, and when somebody asks you a question, you want to tell them the most accurate, true thing.
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And you can't just say yes or no.
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If you were smart, you'd say, yes, but there are some edge cases, and then you'd decide if you wanted to go deeper or not.
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Well, I'm maybe not that smart, because what I usually do is, um, I'll talk for 10 or 15 minutes about the things I feel like you ought to know before I can tell you what the answer is.
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And then… If you're lucky and I remember, I'll tell you the answer, and then I'll go on for another 10 or 15 minutes about why that's the answer and what else you might need to know. Uh, so this is horrible.
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Uh, most people… Uh, are asleep before we even get to the answer, if there even is one. Um, and… Next time they have a question.
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They know who not to ask.
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So, to me, that feels like a problem. I think I have some answers, and those might be helpful, and I want to share them.
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But I'm not sharing them in a good way.
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And Jim and I actually.
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discussed this.
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And.
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You know, the first step to, uh… solving a problem is admitting you have a problem. So, here's me admitting I have a problem, and Jim and I decided on a course of action.
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Well.
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I know what to do.
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I need to do the thing I just said. I need to jump straight to the answer, and then say.
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But there are some edge cases, or whatever, if there would have been more.
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And then Jim and I together can decide, is this a thing where it's worth digging deeper, or was that enough?
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Because maybe it's enough. And if Jim asks the question that way.
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And says, start with the answer, then we'll figure out where to go from there.
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That will remind me not to be a total jerk.
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Um.
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And this does not apply just to Jim.
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Well, it's not… it's not being a jerk. I mean, you're… I tell people this, I've told you many times, you're the smartest person I know. I know you can answer the question. So it's not being a jerk about it, it's uh… It's tuning the conversation so that we both get what we need out of it.
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Right? And…
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Yeah.
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And, uh, yeah, sometimes I need more, but sometimes I'm… I was like, God, is he ever gonna get to the answer?
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And then, and then I zone out. So, so this is, this is our attempt.
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Umm.
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I, I, of course.
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once you and I discussed this and came up with a plan, um, I immediately told my wife, and she said.
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Can I do it too?
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And uh… I want everybody to do it. If you're talking to me and you're concerned, um… that you've just opened a door into endless, too-loud, um, un-incomprehensible answers, uh.
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ask the question the way Jim and I just agreed. Remind me, uh, not to go on and on. That's… that's my plan. And… and I called this out on purpose.
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Because… Well, you'll see why.
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Yah.
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So that's the feedback I have for this episode.
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Since I'm talking, let me ask you, Jim.
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How is your week?
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I've had a great week. I'm gonna start off with, last week, I read that book that Wolf gave me. I think we mentioned it a couple of weeks ago in the previous episode. Jonathan Livingston Siegel, I think I made the comment that I thought.
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I think we did.
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He was the author.
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But he's not. The name of the book is Jonathan Livingston Siegel, and it's been around since 1970, I think. And I read it for the first time, and I'll tell you what, I'm gonna read it again and again. It's a short book. It's, uh… you take out all the pictures, it's maybe 80 pages, and it's not very dense material.
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And I just really, really enjoyed it. It sort of spoke to me. I even went so far as to go to the Wikipedia page about this book, and it was quite interesting. And when the book first came out, the publisher didn't know how to categorize it.
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They, they didn't know if it was a self-help book or a religious book or what they, they.
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It wasn't any of those.
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No, but it touches all of those, right? I mean, it never… it… in a weird way, it's a little bit about religion, without saying so. That's what I got out of it. Maybe you got something else. I just really enjoyed it.
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Yeah.
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So, if you… if you… if you want to read an interesting book that I… I read it in about an hour, and I'm not a very fast reader, so you could probably read it in 20 minutes. Yeah.
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I told you so.
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You did. I, I, uh, it was just a really easy read, and I really enjoyed it, and I'm looking forward to reading it again. Uh, anyway, that, uh…
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That actually gives me two questions.
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What's that?
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The first one is, well, the first one's an observation.
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people who know stuff about this author, Richard Bach, Richard Bachmann, I think. Anyway, he's actually written multiple books. I've never read any of the other ones, but the important ones were a book named.
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Yep, yep.
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One.
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and a book named Illusions, and I don't remember if there was a book named The Reluctant Messiah, or if that's the subtitle of one of the two books I just named. That's one thing.
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And number two is the actual question.
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I told you.
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that Jonathan Livingston Seagull is… Sort of my philosophy put to words, now that you've read it.
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Does that sound right?
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I, I was really surprised at how it aligns with the way I think. So maybe the answer to that question is yes, right? It, it, it sort of aligns with what I've always thought. Uh, and it certainly opened up my mind to think.
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Mmhm.
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differently, but, um, yeah, it's, I, I guess it's, it, it's my philosophy, or, or.
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a good part of it. And I don't want to spoil what it's about, because I want people to read it and be surprised, and enjoy it. It was pretty cool.
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And I'm thinking I'm gonna maybe read some of his other books to see what they're like, to see if they're anything like this. Or maybe they're duds, I have no idea, but I'll read them.
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I like to read.
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I look forward to your reviews.
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Yeah, okay.
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Anyway, keep going.
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So this is turning into book club? Is that what this is?
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Hit runtime arguments and book review.
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All right. Last episode, we talked about HTTP three and I'm sorry, just it was HTTP, the unsung hero of the internet. And one of the things I brought up was HTTP three, which I thought was pretty interesting. I wanted to talk about it because Marlin mentioned it and said it's really important at Meta.
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where he works. And, uh, so I dug into it a little bit. I thought, what would it take for me to implement, uh, that on my servers? Uh, well, it turns out HAProxy supports it.
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So that was easy. Turn on an option. Only it doesn't fully support it because of the SSL library that's linked against HAProxy, the one that ships in distros, doesn't support the QUIC protocol properly. That's Q-U-I-C. So it doesn't fully support it.
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well, so I had to go and get a different HAProxy package, uh, right from… I think I got it from HAProxy.org. I installed that, so now I thought I was on my way, only I still wasn't getting, uh, H3, and I… did a little more digging. I'll tell you what, I worked a lot with Claude, back and forth. This was hours of Claude and me discussing this and working through the issues.
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Turns out Google, or I'm sorry, Chrome refuses to talk HTTP 3 if you're using an SSL certificate that wasn't signed by one of the big certificate authorities.
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that the certificate is built into the Chrome itself.
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Chrome will use its own built-in certificates, and it'll also use the certificates that are installed on your system, and in my case, it's macOS, and there's a trust store where you can store all these certificates. Chrome won't.
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Uh, do H3 with a, uh, certificate that you've created yourself and signed with your own CA. I've always, for years and years, I've always used, generated my own certificates for all my internal stuff and, uh, signed it with my own CA.
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certificate. And that's always worked really well. But Chrome refuses to do h3. Turns out Firefox also refuses. And by the way, Safari doesn't care. Safari will talk h3 to anything as long as one of the requirements of HTTP three is that it has to be over SSL.
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So, uh, anyway, Safari doesn't care. I was annoyed that Chrome was doing that, but I guess it's a security thing. I don't know, it seems to me that they could trust any certificate as long as there's a CA behind it that they know about.
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But, uh, I got it working.
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And it's pretty cool. It turns out, unless you're Google or Meta or, you know, doing YouTube or Netflix or something, you don't get much out of HTTP.
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HTTP3. It doesn't buy you that much, because we're not pushing the kind of traffic that those places do. But it is over UDP instead of TCP, so there could be firewall issues in the way of people doing it. But it was sort of an exercise that I wanted to try. And it was interesting, and when I got done, I had a sense of accomplishment.
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And it's still being used right now, um, but it doesn't matter. I don't know. It was a fun little exercise.
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Uh, so that's kind of what I, what I did, uh, along with all my other chores that I have to go through every, every week. Uh, how about you, Wolf?
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What did you do?
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Um, well, I did some amazing stuff. Um, and what I mean when I say that is.
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I did some stuff that felt amazing to me. Like, I felt good about the world and what was happening, not, oh, I'm amazing, and not that.
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Um, one of those things was, um, I have been, uh, practicing and studying and researching to get really, uh, down into the rules.
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for USPSA competition, and I… it finally got to be the time where I spent all weekend, uh, down in Ohio.
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Um… at a live in-person RO class. RO stands for Range Officer.
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And, uh, ROs are very important, and they're all volunteer in the sport, um, and they're the ones who.
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run the timer, or the tablet, or keep watch. They really help with the safety during a competition, uh, making sure everybody follows the rules and the right things happen.
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Um, and to me, that feels like a big deal. I didn't… before I started this process, planned to become anything that was interesting. I just wanted to be better at the rules and be able to help people be safe. That was my plan.
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And it was so much more interesting than that. Um, the drive was 4 hours.
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Um… and it was… I would have driven 10 hours if I had… each way, if I had known how great this instructor was going to be. His name was Gary, apparently.
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Geez, I've… I've driven 10 hours for a steak.
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I do not think I've done that. But I love steak. But this was great. And I took the RO exam.
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Um… And I passed. I am a certified RO now for the USPSA. So I feel awesome about that.
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Um, so…
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That's really cool.
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That's really, really neat.
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I feel good about it.
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And there's a card and everything. I mean, you've got to print it yourself.
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Yeah.
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You're a card-carrying RO.
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Yeah. Uh, the nice thing about You Gotta Print It Yourself is, you can print five, and put one in each bag, or, you know, whatever you're gonna do. Alright.
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Sure.
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Second, oh, oh, I should say that, um, to attend this class.
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I, uh, got to spend the weekend, my very, very good friend, and… I'm gonna say brother.
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my brother, Tony Stearns, Dr. Tone, put me up. Uh, he and his lovely, uh, wife, Veronica, with a K.
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Um, they were so kind to me, and we grilled, and we talked, and… Tony is the one who basically made my life be okay when I was a young man and was out of the house that my parents owned.
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Um, which… Happened around age 14.
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Tony is the reason I'm a human being.
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Um, so, I, uh, I can't just call him my best friend.
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He's my brother.
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Um… Thank you, Tony, for putting me up. Uh, okay. Now, there is a part over the course of the last couple of weeks that I did.
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where I do feel good about myself, about the thing I accomplished and did.
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And that is, I implemented a complete solution to a very hard problem. Don't get the idea, I'm not done. There's plenty left to do.
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Uh, but it does function, it is ready, it does the production level thing.
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Um, the problem, uh, has been considered until I took it, uh, to be.
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very, very challenging. Perhaps too challenging. Perhaps something you can't do fast enough to keep up with the input data, which is billions of points per day.
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Um… I.
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made a complete solution that lives up to my standards, that.
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builds the library the right way that has to… and the whole thing. And it's, uh, roughly an 8000x speedup over initial attempts.
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So I felt like I did some good in terms of, um… Processing power.
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Um, but… And, uh, I feel pretty good about that. And also, um, you'll see why this might matter, uh, as we continue the talk.
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I have a fancy keyboard on my desk or had just a beautiful I love it curved.
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Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro. It's two separate halves, it's Bluetooth, um, you plug it in, it's totally programmable, and big! It takes up a huge amount of space on my desk.
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And now it doesn't, because I just don't use it enough. Normally, I'm sitting in my chair, um, and I'm… I'm basically only on my desk for recording. That's when I get my big monitors and stuff.
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Umm.
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So that's my week. Uh, overall, pretty good. The 132 hours I put into the past fortnight of, uh, work.
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Might be a little excessive.
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I think I have a balance problem? A work-life balance problem? I gotta work that part out.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, but 8,000 times improvement, that's pretty good.
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Hi Coconut Matt.
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That's.
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That's pretty good. Are the bosses happy?
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Well… You know how people do that thing where they're super happy but they don't want to show it?
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Ugh.
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Like, they're, you know, they're super, they're, like, smiling underneath, and on top they're saying.
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I think that might be acceptable. Stuff like that, right?
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Yeah, because if they show their, if they show their happiness, that means they have to pay you more or something.
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Which I attribute to… I, uh, that's the implication, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
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Yeah, yeah, okay, all right.
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No, I love my bosses, and they did give me positive feedback and made me feel like my work mattered.
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Well, that's good. That's good.
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And that's really what I care about. Does my work matter?
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All right. Should we get on to the meat of the episode?
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I think we should. Uh, do you want me to just start talking? Uh, and then…
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All right, I'm gonna… Just just start.
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It's gonna be a conversation.
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Yeah.
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And I think maybe some of the things that I want to say are controversial.
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Um… But… It's a bunch of lines that all lead into the center.
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And we're gonna have to tackle some of those lines one at a time, and it won't make sense. So I'm gonna start with the thing at the center.
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And the thing at the center is… You have a fixed budget.
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of attention.
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Umm.
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And… Life and success.
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is about aiming that.
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amount of attention, what you have.
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In the right portions.
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at the right things.
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Umm.
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If you do those.
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Um, that's what leaning your ladder against the right wall means.
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And the problem is that where you're going… The target?
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It's always moving.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:28.000
So that's what I want to talk about today. I want to talk about what you have.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:36.000
What you don't have… And how you can get from where you are to where you want to be.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:39.000
With just that and nothing more.
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000
That's the plan.
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.000
Umm.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:50.000
So we have kind of an idea of what we wanted to call this episode.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.000
And that is… now?
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:56.000
Let's talk about leaning the ladder, finally.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:01.000
Because we always say, is your ladder leaned against the right wall?
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:05.000
Now we're going to talk about what that means.
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.000
So now that you know what I'm actually going to talk about, Jim.
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:14.000
Is it going to be interesting to you or are you going to tune out?
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:16.000
Yeah, I told you, I've been looking forward to this episode.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.000
Um… So let me talk about what's in your way.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Uh, the most important thing is the thing that everybody says all the time. The only constant is change. Change is the only thing you can… you know, everything changes all the time.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:42.000
The world is moving, and for you as a human being.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:49.000
a lot of this is about knowledge and skill and experience. And so, first.
00:23:49.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Let me say… You absolutely don't know everything. You don't even know as much as you think you know. And the more you know, the more you know you don't know! Um, and you've got to accept that. So, number one, you don't know enough.
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:10.000
And number two, everything you do know is perishable.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Absolutely everything requires practice.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.000
If you don't do it, that thing goes away.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:36.000
And that means playing, um, jarts on the lawn. It means playing the piano. It means programming. It means driving. It means talking to other human beings. It means accepting other people's viewpoints. Every possible thing you can do.
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:43.000
If you're not getting better at it by doing it, you're getting worse at it.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:44.000
So.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.000
Perishability.
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:48.000
Has two.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.000
versions.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.000
And that means, you as a human being, have.
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.000
two jobs because you got to overcome both of them.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:04.000
The self version is… Your knowledge and skills.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000
It's the thing I just said.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.000
The world is moving.
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.000
Things are better.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:20.000
How do you drive right now? But now there's electric cars, that's different! Can you drive an electric car? It's not that different, but there are things that are more different.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.000
Um, so.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:25.000
What you know is perishable.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:30.000
And then the work version, in our business, Jim.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.000
We call bit rot.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:38.000
Um, and it's, it's not something that you made decaying.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Uh, it's exactly the opposite.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.000
The world is moving on?
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:53.000
But if you released something… And you're not constantly maintaining it?
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:59.000
Then there's a gap between that thing, frozen in time at release date.
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:03.000
And the current state of the ever-changing world.
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:09.000
And as the world changes, that gap gets wider and wider and wider.
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:16.000
And to us, it looks like, oh, the thing I released is decaying, bit rot.
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.000
I mean, okay, sure.
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:30.000
But that's not what it is. So the two jobs, ongoing maintenance on both of those things, and you never finish either one of them.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:36.000
You've got to keep yourself moving closer to the person you want to be.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.000
In skills, in knowledge, in behavior.
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:46.000
um… I'm going to talk about values later. Values are kind of forever.
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:54.000
You discover them, you refine them, you're not moving towards them. Either you satisfy your values or you don't. I'm not going to worry about that at this moment.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:01.000
And you keep moving your work closer to what you want it to be.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:06.000
And I'm going to talk about goals for both of those things in a second.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Um… All of this.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.000
is constrained.
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:14.000
By your attention.
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:24.000
Not time. Because wall clock time, everybody has the same amount. We all have 24 hours.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:35.000
Uh, in a day. And when one minute ticks over, you're into the next minute. It's not like, oh, I'm out of time, I gotta stop now. That next minute is coming, it's going to happen.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:39.000
What is limited is your attention.
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:45.000
And that is a thing that is absolutely different for different people.
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:50.000
It is different because like a mother of four, a single mother of four.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.000
How much discretionary time does she have?
00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:01.000
Versus how much discretionary time does one of those four children have?
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:07.000
Those are totally different amounts of wall clock time.
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:19.000
Attention is, you know, what you can pour onto a surface, what you have in you that you can apply. And you run out of attention long before you run out of time.
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:45.000
Uh, first, because you have so many things to divide it between. Second, because it's only as awake as you are. Um… You don't have 24 hours of it to spare. You might have 6 hours. You might have 4 hours. On some things, your attention is powerful. If I work on a programming problem, I can do with an hour of attention.
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:50.000
What it might take a college student two weeks to accomplish.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:29:00.000
Um, that's not because I'm smart, it's not because he's dumb, it's nothing like that. It's because, like the old plumber joke.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:09.000
You're not paying for the 10 minutes it took me to fix that. You're paying for the 30 years it took me to make that a 10-minute job.
00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:10.000
Um.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:23.000
my attention could be, uh, that I only have 4 hours to give in a day, but 1 hour did 2 weeks' worth of that college student's time.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:40.000
Whereas two weeks of his attention, he's got so much atten… well, in college, maybe he doesn't. But… but you can see what I'm saying. Um… Sometimes you have more of one thing, sometimes you have more of another, sometimes it's worth more, sometimes it's worth less.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:49.000
So… The key idea is attention hits hard where you're already experienced, skilled, equipped.
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:51.000
You.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000
Do a lot and fast.
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:58.000
Where you don't yet know, attention is expensive and slow.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:02.000
So job number one, that I listed above.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:10.000
Um… Where job one was invest in yourself, and job two was invest in the artifacts you're making, your work.
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:35.000
Job number one isn't self-improvement for its own sake. It's not… oh, I'm gonna get smarter, and I'm gonna know stuff. That's not what it is. I mean, yeah, that's a side benefit, you like that, you feel better, great! But also… It is the thing that improves your impact per unit of attention.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000
It compounds.
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.000
It means that… Everything you do.
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000
Count more.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.000
So working on yourself.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:51.000
To make you better at the things you want to do and accomplish?
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:56.000
pays dividends over and over and over again.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.000
So, it's one of the things you must split your attention between.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.000
because of what it's going to pay.
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:04.000
Umm.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.000
That.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.000
is… the key idea. That is why it comes before job two.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:24.000
And this constraint about attention, it's not just about saying yes to the right things, to the most important things, about that ladder being.
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.000
Leaned up against the right wall?
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:32.000
It's also about saying NO to the stupid stuff.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:35.000
Everything you say no to?
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:39.000
is attention you could have spent.
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Poorly.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.000
And never gotten back.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:49.000
and turns it into attention you can spend on anything you want. Opportunity.
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:54.000
When you say no, you don't just get another 15 minutes.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:59.000
You get 15 minutes that you could turn into.
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:06.000
An extra however much for the rest of the week, the rest of the month, the rest of your life.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:07.000
Umm.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.000
Attention?
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.000
is the currency.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.000
we're going to talk about.
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:19.000
Um, I see looks on your face, Jim, I don't even know how to interpret.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:25.000
Oh, I've got… I've got a few things I want to say, but I'm not sure when I want to say it. I think I might… I might, uh…
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Oh, just jump in. Say 'em now.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.000
All right.
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:36.000
Over the years, we've been friends for a long, long time, and you're always trying to convince me to try new things, right?
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:42.000
And, uh, for instance, you would love it if I used Helix.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:51.000
Or if I at least looked at it, right? You'd love it if I used whatever grep you're using instead of the grep that I use. Or whatever… whatever tool.
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Uh-huh.
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Right?
00:32:52.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Um, and this… This, uh, this little thought that you're explaining here sort of… addresses that very clearly for me. Uh, I don't… I don't want to spend a lot of time learning those new tools.
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.000
Because I only have so much attention to give.
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:21.000
Right? I spend my attention where I think it's important, and I say no where I don't perceive a value.
00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:36.000
And this exactly fits into what you were just saying. I'm trying to say yes to the right things and no to the wrong things so that I can focus and move forward with the things that I need to move forward with. Now, you and I have different amounts of time.
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.000
available for this.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:44.000
You sort of mentioned it way back at the beginning of the episode. Work-life balance.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:49.000
I don't think you can argue that I have a better work-life balance than you do.
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.000
Oh, I totally agree.
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Because I choose.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:03.000
I choose that. So I just don't have the attention budget to focus on all the things that you do.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:11.000
And I think you think I'm just not willing to try new things. I am. I'm just… well, you've said it.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.000
I do not think that.
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:26.000
I, uh… you know, I spent a lot of my time, um… not trying out a new grep, because it's the… it's a better tool, or find. I think that's a big one for you. You've got a find that's.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:45.000
way better than the normal find on a Unix machine. I spend my time researching, like, what can I do with Postgres better? You know, you've said before that I'm an expert at Postgres and SQL, and it kind of makes me blush, because I'm not.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Me too.
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:52.000
I'm… I know a certain amount to get the job done, but I spend an awful lot of time trying to learn.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:35:00.000
more of it. And that's where I choose to apply my attention, is that kind of stuff, because that provides direct benefit.
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.000
And that is a great path.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:11.000
Yeah! Yeah, so I… all this stuff you're talking about really sort of explains how I look at things and how you look at things.
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000
I…
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:15.000
And I can bring them together.
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Yes.
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:18.000
If you're ready, do you want me to?
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.000
Let's, yeah, let's keep going, because this is fun.
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:20.000
Okay.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.000
And.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000
I.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.000
First, I want to.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:29.000
Oh.
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:37.000
Make sure that, um, everybody understands, uh, just how much measuring.
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.000
you should be doing.
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.000
All the time.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.000
Everything that matters is worth measuring.
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000
If you're just taking a guess.
00:35:45.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Well, it might be worth measuring how often your guesses are right, and how far away they are from right, because if they're totally wrong, and you're measuring that, then maybe you'll learn guessing isn't a good way to find the answer to this.
00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:02.000
So you can… You can, you can, you can tune your algorithm.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.000
That's right, okay, so.
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Let's say… that, um, the things… everything about this is an evaluation. Everything that you look at, am I gonna do this, am I gonna do that.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:25.000
That is an evaluation of the potential ROI for that thing, the return on investment.
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:33.000
So, you're gonna have to figure out, what am I gonna pay? And there's a zillion different axes along which you might pay.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:44.000
And how you measure those has to do with the things you value. Do you value money? Do you value integrity? Do you value… whatever it is, that's gonna control.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:51.000
what the actual cost is to you and what the actual return is.
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:56.000
Now, success, everything that you want to happen.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:02.000
Maybe that's a thing that you know for yourself. Maybe it's a thing that your customer tells you.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:13.000
There's gonna be goals, like, you know, we've got to be able to schedule a room, and it's got to, uh, actually pick the right room and close the transaction in under 2 seconds.
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:19.000
That's a definition of done. Now you know what it is, and you can measure stuff on your way there.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Success! Let's pretend there's a line going from where you are to the future.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:31.000
Success is not the tip of that line.
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:37.000
And success isn't actually just a point somewhere on the line, the definition of done, oh, I hit it.
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:42.000
Right? Success is a span on that line.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.000
If you fell somewhere in here.
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.000
That's good.
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:54.000
And if you're too far outside, ahead of that span, then the thing you built.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:57.000
is maybe risky?
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:07.000
corner cutting, um, hard to maintain, um, untestable. Um, you don't want to go further.
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:14.000
then the evidence lets you go. So yeah, you see me trying new things.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:21.000
But sometimes I say no to those things. Sometimes they aren't the right answer, because they take me past the span.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.000
You choose she.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:30.000
shorter jumps. You say, I'm gonna spend my attention on this thing.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.000
And not that.
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:38.000
And you go into the span that is success.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.000
But at a different point than I do.
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.000
It's still success.
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:48.000
You're in the place that means you did it and you got what you wanted.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:59.000
If you'd gone below the span, that would have meant you're encouraging bit rot. You are making something that starts stale.
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000
But that's not what you're doing. You're just picking a point in the span of success that is different than mine. The thing you value is 100% deliverability.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:26.000
and, like, specific qualities, uh, about, um, continuous and reliable, and whereas I put higher on my list.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:33.000
not being stale. But I won't go, so… Fast.
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:40.000
that I'm bleeding edge, that I'm outside the span, nor do you make choices that don't let you.
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:41.000
Succeed.
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:47.000
Yes, I complain because you don't want to go as fast as me?
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:50.000
But you're successful.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:00.000
You're in the span. Is it a different way than I am? Absolutely. You and I are different. That's why our show is named Runtime Arguments.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:14.000
Do I think you are wrong? Do I think you're dumb? I don't think any of those things. Um, you would not be my best friend if I didn't completely respect you, your method, and your results.
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:26.000
They're different than mine. That's all. And they're different in a way where I can still respect you. It's not like we have different values.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:32.000
that are opposite of each other. For instance, one of my core values is integrity.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:41.000
To me, um… Lying, cheating, stealing, not being transparent, not being honest.
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Those are all wrong and bad. I don't want them.
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:51.000
Um… Things that could make me do those things?
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.000
I will actively seek to make sure can't happen.
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.000
I won't play a game that would encourage me to cheat.
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:04.000
I won't accept a win that took cheating to get.
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.000
And someone who thinks cheating is okay?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.000
Someone who doesn't share my value for integrity?
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.000
There's a difference.
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:17.000
That makes it be.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000
I can't be that person's friend.
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:27.000
Now, everybody gets to pick their own values. I can't tell anybody what their values should be.
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:33.000
But I do get to say, we can be friends, we can't be friends.
00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:34.000
You and I?
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.000
We can be friends.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.000
It's great.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:44.000
Does that explain my feelings about the differences in how we evaluate ROI?
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:53.000
Yeah, but, you know, I'm still kind of stuck on the point that you and I have different levels of attention that we're willing to put into this.
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.000
Because I put attention into other things as well. It's part of that work-life balance.
00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.000
That's right.
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.000
There is tons of stuff.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.000
That's just a choice I make.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:02.000
I completely abandon.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.000
To give me the attention I need.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.000
to focus on these things.
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:23.000
So I can look at, why is ripgrep better than grep? Um, and then I can decide, oh, ripgrep is this much better, and it's worth learning and using. And I have the attention to do those things.
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:14.000
Umm.
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:35.000
And you, if you had that attention, might consider it to be worthwhile, but you've spent your attention on something that matches your values.
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Maybe it had nothing to do with computer programming. Maybe it had to do with spending time with your dog, or spending time with your children, or your wife.
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Um, and that's a completely reasonable choice.
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:56.000
And one that has no disagreement at all with my values.
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:59.000
Therefore, I can respect it and support it?
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:59.000
Mmhm.
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:15.000
Um, and there's a place where… I ended up with… more attention available to me for this particular thing, which let me target a higher spot in the span of success.
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.000
Than you did?
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:26.000
But we're still both there, so we're still both okay. Except… That maybe I didn't get to spend enough time with my dog.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:32.000
See, that's implying that you are more successful than I am.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:47.000
No, okay. I have definitely presented this in a bad way. This is multi-dimensional. I used the word "higher" and "lower" and those words were loaded and inappropriately. Let me say it a different way.
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:36.000
Okay, so.
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.000
Okay.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Yeah, okay.
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:43.000
Yah.
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Yep.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Um, when you look at one of those weird circle diagrams that, um…
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:53.000
Yep.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:08.000
it's an empty circle with lines radiating out of it, and the center is colored, but with jagged points and stuff, like some weird shape, and it describes something interesting. It's not like one point is better than another.
00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:58.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Right, right.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000
Right.
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.000
Imagine that the success space that I'm describing.
00:44:13.000 --> 00:44:25.000
is just multi-dimensional in the way this circle is, and where I said higher and lower, what I really should have said was.
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:46.000
Further along this one axis, um… and closer to where you started along this other axis. So, for instance, where I went further along the which tools am I using axis, and what they're written in, and what performance they do, and.
00:44:46.000 --> 00:45:01.000
and things like that. You didn't go as far along that axis. Is that a better or worse situation? Is that a higher and lower? Is it a better and not as good, smarter and dumber? It's none of those things.
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:10.000
All it is is… This one uses more of those particular tools, this one uses less. That's the way I should have said it, and I'm sorry I didn't.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:24.000
All right, so I can visualize that diagram, that graph. I wish I knew the name of it. And what I'm seeing is that if you plot out.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.000
where I am in that graph. It's closer to a circle.
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:35.000
And if you plot out where you are, it's a little bit more bumpy.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.000
But the peaks are higher than my peaks, right?
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:41.000
Is that kind of what you're thinking?
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:41.000
Umm.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:46.000
I don't know. All I know is…
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:51.000
If you're talking about, okay, this falls right into the well-rounded work-life balance, I think.
00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Yeah, um, for sure, um, we… allocate our attention differently, and your attention is allocated in a way where you.
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Sure.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:07.000
Get more things.
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:10.000
And it's a better blend?
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:18.000
So, I'm guessing, and I don't know this, I'm guessing that the things you get to put in that.
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:31.000
circle, the things you spend attention on, each one gets a narrower slice. Maybe. Um, hard to say. Um, and I focus really, really hard on a couple of things.
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.000
Yeah.
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:37.000
Um, and I don't get any other slices. But boy, do I really pour it on for those things.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.000
You do, yeah you do.
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:45.000
Like, I put a lot into, um, doing some really good, uh, coding stuff for work.
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:51.000
And I put a lot into, uh, my hobby, as you know. Um…
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.000
Right.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.000
Right, right.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:56.000
And I'm not doing a lot of other stuff.
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:56.000
No.
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.000
So, that's where we are.
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:04.000
No. I get it. I get it. It helps me visualize exactly where we fit.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000
And it's an interesting way to think about it. And I kind of like it.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:16.000
Um, but this brings up, um… A couple of things.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:23.000
One is… Like I started with.
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:26.000
Spending your attention.
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:28.000
On the things that match.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:31.000
Your values.
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.000
Is leaning your ladder against the right wall.
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.000
To know if you're actually.
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Doing the right thing?
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:45.000
If you are accomplishing the things that you want.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.000
You've got to measure.
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:51.000
To know what things to try?
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:56.000
Which will help you get to the goals and the things you value.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:00.000
You've got to evaluate the ROI for those things.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:10.000
And an ROI evaluation is, um, a thing you're gonna end up doing for absolutely everything, even if you don't.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:17.000
Test it, or experiment, or work it out in your mind. You're still gonna make a guess, that's an ROI evaluation.
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:21.000
I see Jim do it all the time. I do it all the time.
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:29.000
Jim and I do it differently. We do it differently for a couple of reasons. One is, we have different values.
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:36.000
So the things that go into the cost and reward sides of that equation are measured differently.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:41.000
And two is, um… I.
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:49.000
measure differently which things I think are going to participate, and guess differently.
00:48:49.000 --> 00:49:04.000
And Jim measures and guesses differently. And one of the things that Jim guesses about is he guesses what the startup cost, the switching cost, is gonna be to actually try that thing.
00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:08.000
And I guess too low.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Sometimes. Often, maybe.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:23.000
And Jim guesses what I think is too high. Um, and maybe it's because Jim is including in his guess things that really do count that I'm not counting.
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Oh, this would need a whole nother CPU. Oh, this would mean that it takes X hours for the person who's at the terminal to do it. Oh, this means it would… where I'm just like, well, that's gonna take me 2 hours.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:43.000
Um, and the difference in those things means that when Jim considers.
00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:02.000
something that, to me, is a… feels like a no-brainer. Oh, I'll try FD, which is what I use instead of Find. That seems like an obvious win to me, once I understand what FD does. And to Jim, it's like, well, I'd have to… and I… it only matters if I use Find more than blah blah blah.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:09.000
And we come up with different ROIs, because we genuinely have different ROIs.
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:15.000
And the answer to Jim is not to use it, and the answer to me is to use it.
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.000
And we're both doing the right thing.
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:25.000
Um… And what this means is… This is where your values come in.
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.000
And it also means… You aren't measuring enough.
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.000
Umm.
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:32.000
And.
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:39.000
There are costs and rewards that you won't know about.
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Until way after you made the decision.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.000
For instance.
00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:49.000
On paper, this car is exactly what I need.
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:51.000
And then you bring it home.
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:55.000
And everything is great, and you drive it for four months.
00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:00.000
And you realize… Really?
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:02.000
Like this car?
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:06.000
And the color is not exactly growing on me.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:11.000
And sticks sounded good, but… I'm in a lot of traffic.
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:13.000
Maybe this isn't right.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:15.000
Umm.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.000
And don't be short-sighted.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:26.000
If spending a little something now earns you something ongoing, for instance.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:30.000
If spending $6,000 right now to buy a laptop.
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:32.000
And you do the math.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:36.000
And that laptop will save you $70,000 a year.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:42.000
Not spending $6,000 this minute to get it?
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:46.000
That is not saving $6,000.
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.000
And if you count it as saving $6,000.
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:52.000
Um, there is an expression.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:58.000
that people have used for hundreds of years. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:59.000
And.
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:03.000
If saving money is one of your values.
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:15.000
But saving $6,000 in the next 5 minutes wins over saving $70,000 this year and next, and maybe the one after that.
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:26.000
you're not evaluating your actual values correctly, because your value isn't, um, financial well-being.
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000
It's.
00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000
Not writing a check. That's your value.
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.000
on.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Along these lines… Is.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:45.000
Something that… College students.
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.000
Do not know yet.
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:51.000
Something that… Uh, many people don't know.
00:52:52.000 --> 00:53:02.000
And that is, uh, the thing I'm about to say is gonna be alien to you, to anyone. The fir- the first thing anybody's gonna think in their head is, oh, of course not, I never do that.
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:09.000
And the thing I'm going to say is, do not fall in love with your answer.
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:23.000
Because as soon as you, like, start DEFENDING it… And your defense is emotional instead of more lines of code in a folder named Experiments or Benchmarks?
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Um… You are on a path to bit rot.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:37.000
Because you have said, no, I like what I have. It's right. Instead of saying, you've offered me an alternative. Would it win?
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:40.000
You need to know, would it win?
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.000
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:47.000
You deciding you like the way you did it?
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:51.000
I happen to love my car. It's a Subaru.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:54:00.000
If you offer me a different car, uh, not offer, if you tell me, hey, you should really be driving a X.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:12.000
Um… But I'm in love with my Subaru! And maybe driving that other car would be a significant return of value to me.
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:15.000
I would… it would somehow make a difference.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:22.000
I can't let being in love with my Subaru… Color my decision.
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:36.000
If you say, hey, you should be driving a Nissan Leaf, or whatever it is, um, because, guess what? The end value in… at the end of a year is gonna be $30,000 in your pocket.
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:39.000
If I say, no, love my Subaru.
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:42.000
I just threw away $30,000.
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.000
Because I had an emotion.
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.000
There is plenty of stuff to have a motion for.
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:53.000
If you're a doctor, you should have empathy for your patients.
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:56.000
If you have a pet, you should love your pet.
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:02.000
If you're in a family, you should love your spouse, your children, your parents.
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:11.000
You should not love your car. You should not love your algorithm. Um, you should not love your programming language.
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:14.000
You shouldn't even love your database.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:18.000
You should always be ready.
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:22.000
If it could do the right thing.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:24.000
For an affordable price.
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000
With a positive return.
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.000
You should always be ready to switch.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:36.000
Now, switching means, if it had a huge cost, that the return was even bigger.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.000
You know.
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.000
So, yes.
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:48.000
If you've been using Postgres and your database is just 90 gigabytes or vastly bigger than that, and you've been doing it for 20 years.
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:50.000
The switching cost is high.
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:55.000
But if someone can prove using blah blah blah database.
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:01.000
It's gonna put $300,000 in your pocket at the end of every year.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:07.000
The switch might be hard, but it's worth considering.
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Sure.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:20.000
Sure, you know, one of the things I say when I'm working with people and we're starting some new project, something brand new to the system, I always try to say, don't be afraid to throw away the first one.
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.000
Yep.
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:29.000
You know, you start working on something, you start heading down a path. Most of the time, it's just a good idea to just move forward.
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:36.000
Get something working so you understand the problem better. Don't be afraid to throw it away when you're done, and then do the real one.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.000
Right?
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:41.000
And there's a, there's a huge tension there.
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:45.000
Uh, uh, there's a, there's a couple of things. One is.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.000
Oh.
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:51.000
You, as soon as what you have provides value, ship it.
00:56:51.000 --> 00:57:03.000
I don't care if it is what the every minute you don't ship it is time a competitor does ship it and gets market share.
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:52.000
Yeah.
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:04.000
For instance.
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:13.000
Uh, so that's one thing. And the build one and throw it away, because now we learned things that change every single thing about this.
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:14.000
That's a thing.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:18.000
But once you have a system in place and it's huge.
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:26.000
Now, the tension is, absolutely do not throw that thing away and rewrite it from scratch.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.000
Sure.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:27.000
Oh, yeah.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:31.000
Now is the point where you figure out where you're going.
00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:37.000
The path to get there, and rewrite piece by piece until you are there.
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:42.000
Because you don't want to take away something that works.
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Yeah, I… I've… Sure.
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:53.000
Make it better. In place, as you go. And this leads directly to the thing that I want to say about your work, and you as a person.
00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:58.000
And the thing I just said about building a thing and replacing it piece by piece?
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:03.000
We are all us, the work, the thing I just mentioned.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.000
We are all.
00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:06.000
The Ship of Theseus.
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:13.000
We start as one thing, and we replace piece after piece after piece.
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Yep.
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.000
Are we the same thing at the end?
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:17.000
Well, we're better.
00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:20.000
If we do it right, and you can do it right.
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:25.000
If you know what you value, and you spend your attention accordingly.
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:31.000
And that is how I try to live my life. And when people care and want to know.
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:37.000
If they listen for long enough, I'll eventually get around to telling them. That might help them, too.
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:42.000
That's good.
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:44.000
Did we spend a ton of time?
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:49.000
Ah, we're good. We're under 60 minutes, but we're not quite done yet, are we?
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:55.000
We have, we have a few other things.
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:52.000
Where are we?
00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:02.000
that I think are worth diving into a little bit. For instance, uh… I'll bet.
00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:05.000
And I could probably even answer this for you, but I won't.
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.000
That there are things you know cold.
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.000
You are a freaking expert in them.
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Can you name things in which you are a freaking expert?
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:21.000
that are 100% worthless now.
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.000
Well, I used…
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:25.000
And you can start with subversion.
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:36.000
I used… no, I learned a lot from that, and that just… that's foundation for what I'm doing now. But, uh… I used to be a really good COBOL programmer.
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:45.000
I'm not doing any COBOL programming now, so that's kind of worthless, although I learned along the way, right? I learned how to program.
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:48.000
And the world has moved on. We don't use COBOL anymore.
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:51.000
So… The world has moved on and I, and I don't miss that one bit.
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:55.000
I'm sure if I thought about it, there's a ton of things.
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:56.000
Pearl is, I think.
00:59:56.000 --> 01:00:00.000
Outside the span. Just wanted you to know that.
00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:09.000
You know, it is. It is. Oh, yeah, I… actually, I was thinking that that's… I mean, I still do a lot of Perl programming, but it's not my primary focus anymore.
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:16.000
That's… that's not my go-to for a new project. You know, I have a lot of legacy code I have to maintain. Obviously, that's gonna continue to.
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:28.000
But new projects, I'm looking for alternative ways. Certainly, I wouldn't use Perl to write an iOS app. You can't, right? So you use Swift, or SwiftUI, or, you know, whatever you have to use.
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:36.000
And the fact that Swift and SwiftUI and iOS are all things you're putting under your belt.
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:50.000
That's an example of you working on yourself, moving towards your goals, learning. This is you doing the thing that people who just listen cold to our shows might think I'm accusing you of not doing, but you're doing it.
01:00:40.000 --> 01:01:07.000
Well, you know… Yeah, well, you know, a lot of times I'm customer driven, right? I do what the customer needs. They have a problem, I solve it. So sometimes that problem requires me to learn new things. I'm nearly done with a project that I've been working on for about four months now.
01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:09.000
That's all in TypeScript.
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:12.000
And boy, that was a fun learn.
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:29.000
You know, it's… I enjoyed it very, very much, learning how that works. And I'm no expert, I can tell you that. But I am enjoying it, and I'm getting value out of it. So yeah, I learn new things, I spend time on new things.
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:14.000
Yeah.
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:35.000
What I don't want to spend time on is the things that I consider are noise. You know, the things that aren't gonna…
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:35.000
Right.
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:36.000
Give me that.
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:52.000
FD, right? Ripgrep. To me, those are noise. That's not the same value that I get by using, you know, using Swift to create an iOS app, or TypeScript to create this whole new system. That's where I gotta spend my time.
01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:52.000
Now, to me.
01:01:53.000 --> 01:02:00.000
It's the same thing. I… I am I don't want to waste attention on noise.
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:01.000
Umm. Umm.
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:02.000
Friction is a thief.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:06.000
That steals the only thing you have.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:04.000
Sure.
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:08.000
Instead.
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Every time I see friction.
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:20.000
I put it in my notes, because all about learning, you need to take notes. You need to never make the same mistake twice. Um, so, tickets, and…
01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.000
Sure.
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:29.000
your commit history and commit messages and me. I use audio notes into my phone or my watch.
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:42.000
just keep track of the things you've encountered and learned, and by the end of the year, be able to look. I've seen you do this, Jim, you do it on 3x5 cards, or notepad, or whatever it is. Um…
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.000
Umm.
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.000
So.
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:45.000
To me.
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:57.000
Um, it's not… learning FD, or learning RG, that's not a piece of friction for me. That's an opportunity that maybe could pay off, or not, but I have to check.
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:01.000
The thing that's friction is some stupid.
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:17.000
piece of work I have to do over and over and over and over again. I was having a conversation at work with my friend, we all call him Dr. Dave. He's the chief scientist, a mathematician.
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:21.000
And he said, you don't make yourself.
01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:24.000
irreplaceable.
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000
in a job.
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:30.000
Job security. You don't give yourself that.
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:35.000
By making yourself be the only one who can pull that one lever.
01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:36.000
Hmm.
01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:40.000
Because then you're in a job where all you get to do is pull that one lever.
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:41.000
Sure.
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:44.000
You make yourself irreplaceable.
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:46.000
By being the person.
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:49.000
Who makes yourself replaceable?
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:54.000
That's what we decided between us.
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000
It almost sounds counterintuitive, but I fully agree.
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:04.000
Yeah, if you always leave the campsite better than you found it.
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.000
If anybody can pick up the project you've designed and work on it.
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:14.000
If what you do improves everything around you, and they don't need you anymore for that.
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:27.000
They almost certainly can't afford to bring in more people who won't do that because they don't grow the value of the business.
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:23.000
Hmm.
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:28.000
Right.
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:29.000
So, alright.
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:31.000
Where is it?
01:04:31.000 --> 01:04:33.000
Is your bit rot?
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:38.000
Where are the things for you that only work?
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:40.000
Because you don't touch them.
01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:46.000
Oh golly, I don't know.
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.000
Umm.
01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:53.000
I we we work really hard to for that not to be the case.
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:54.000
You know?
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.000
So, yeah, I I don't have an answer for you.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:01.000
Okay.
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:07.000
Um… I did save out what I think are the distilled.
01:05:07.000 --> 01:05:13.000
Lines of… These ideas. A couple.
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Um, for instance… Bitrot isn't decay. It's the world moving while you stand still.
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:23.000
That's my opinion.
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:24.000
Umm.
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:26.000
Umm.
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:28.000
And you don't run out of time.
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:32.000
I mean, until you do. And then you won't care anyway.
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:31.000
Hmph.
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:37.000
You're, you know, your widow or widower or.
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:41.000
Or probably your dog. I hope your dog will care. But you won't.
01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:43.000
You don't run out of time.
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:45.000
You run out of attention.
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:49.000
And you do run out of attention every day.
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:54.000
A value is forever.
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:58.000
A goal is a place. And that's kind of the rule.
01:05:58.000 --> 01:05:59.000
Can you?
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:07.000
Make it happen? Can you get there? Can you ever accomplish it? If you can, it's a goal. If you can't.
01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:11.000
Probably a value. Can you accomplish integrity?
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:13.000
No.
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:15.000
Can you?
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:18.000
Win a game without cheating?
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:24.000
Sure. Winning a game is a goal. You get to a point, and you know I won that game or I didn't win that game.
01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:27.000
Um… That's how you know.
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:32.000
Uh, so if it can be finished, it's a goal. If it can't, it's a value.
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:33.000
Hum.
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:35.000
Not spending the six K.
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:38.000
isn't saving 6K.
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:44.000
A test?
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:49.000
is a definition of done that checks itself.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Umm.
01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:01.000
And the thing I described as a span, and oh so poorly, um, above the span is not better.
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:07.000
Um, let me put it this way. There's inside the span, and outside the span.
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:13.000
And the thing that makes a good programmer?
01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:17.000
is their answer lands inside the span.
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:21.000
And the thing that makes a bad programmer is the opposite.
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:24.000
Either what they built is just too risky.
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:29.000
Or, it never even got to the definition of none.
01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:34.000
I gave those names that used the words above and below, but forget that.
01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:36.000
Is it in the span or not?
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:45.000
Yeah, you talk about SPAN, and it reminds me of Seth Godin. He talks about, does it meet the specification?
01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:38.000
And.
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.000
Mmhm.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000
Right? If it…
01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:51.000
Which for this discussion, I use the words definition of done.
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:54.000
Yeah. Does it meet the specification? Yeah.
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:56.000
But I feel like there's a definition of done for everything.
01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:57.000
Sure.
01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:08.000
Except values. You're never done with integrity. Um, you're… but you are, uh, done with a goal, you got to 12, or whatever. Uh…
01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:59.000
Sure.
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:21.000
Or, it now runs in under 4 seconds. Or, um, my wife and I saw 2 movies this week. Or… Whatever your definition of done is, it's a thing that you can accomplish.
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.000
or not accomplish.
01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:27.000
Um, and finally, you, your code, your opinions.
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:29.000
All ships of Theseus.
01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:30.000
So.
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:37.000
I think that's what I have to say. I don't know if this is my philosophy.
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:41.000
Um… But it is.
01:08:44.000 --> 01:09:00.000
In some ways, I think I'm a success. In other ways, I think I'm not. There are lots of people who have tons of money, there's people who have huge families, and all kinds of love.
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:09.000
the gigantic network. There's people who, um, are world famous. There's lots of definitions of success. And, and there's lots of them I don't meet.
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.000
But.
01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:19.000
I'm super proud of my work. Um, and this… The things I said today?
01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:25.000
are what it takes for me to produce work.
01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:27.000
But not only.
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:30.000
satisfies me, that is good enough.
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:33.000
that.
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:36.000
I'm proud of. I'm not in love with it.
01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:45.000
I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the work I did. I'm proud that I made it into the span.
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:48.000
I'm proud that I hit the definition of done.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:56.000
And I'm proud that the way I did it… Anybody can look and see how it works and make it better if they have better ideas.
01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:01.000
Or throw it away if they decide there's a better way entirely.
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:04.000
And then regret their choices later when it turns out that wasn't true.
01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:10.000
Um… Umm.
01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:12.000
To me.
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:16.000
The most important thing here is about the people.
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:24.000
About identifying your own values and being more and more of the person you want to be.
01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:34.000
and learning more and more, so that you can make a bigger impact on others, and then they can make a bigger… pay it forward. I want everybody to pay it forward.
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Like you said earlier, it compounds.
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:40.000
It does. And it was so hard.
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.000
It really does.
01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:47.000
For me to go from the thing I was when I was a… Child.
01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:48.000
To this?
01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:52.000
I want to pay it forward.
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:53.000
Sure.
01:10:52.000 --> 01:11:01.000
I want other people to experience the… joy of the kind of success I have, that they can.
01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:05.000
experience joy in, I want them to have it.
01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:07.000
Um, and it doesn't cost anything.
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:13.000
All it costs is knowing what matters.
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:16.000
And saying no to everything else.
01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:20.000
There's a few details in between.
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:22.000
But, um…
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:25.000
Yep.
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:25.000
That's what I like.
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:42.000
All right, great. Should I take it out? Yeah. So thank you, everybody, for listening. We appreciate it. We do this every two weeks and we certainly we'd appreciate it if you'd pass the word on. We do have we do have a way of.
01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:28.000
You want to wrap it up?
01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:30.000
Yeah.
01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:53.000
you sending us feedback, if there's something we've said that you would, uh, you would disagree with, or maybe you agree with it, or maybe you have something to add to it, please, uh, send us feedback. Or you…
01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:55.000
Or if you want more swearing, because that would be easy.
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:55.000
Sorry, one more, sorry.
01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:05.000
I think we reign that in pretty well. But you can send us feedback at, what's the email address, Wolf? Feedback at runtimearguments.fm?
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:07.000
Feedback at runtimearguments.fm.
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:22.000
Yes, send us feedback. If you forget what that email address is, if you look in the show notes, we always have show notes and we always include those links in the show notes so you can reach us that way. Look in your podcast player.
01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:36.000
And someplace there should be show notes, and you can find us that way. Of course, both of us are on Mastodon. I won't bore you with our Mastodon account names. You can just look it up in the show notes.
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:43.000
You can find our website in the show notes. You can find other episodes on our website.
01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:50.000
Uh, runtimearguments.fm, http colon slash slash runtimearguments.fm. Um…
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:50.000
That's right, no F's.
01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:59.000
Yeah, it's not HTTPS. That's because of our hosting, and we have a transcript, and uh… man, life is good, isn't it?
01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:54.000
And we have a transcript.
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:03.000
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:05.000
Well, you know, mostly. 132 hours, less good, but you know.
01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:06.000
Yeah, right, well…
01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:07.000
8,000 X. Good, good.
01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:18.000
Good, good, yeah. Alright. Well, hey, have a great, uh, week or two, everybody. Look forward to, uh, having you back, uh, next time. And Wolf, as always.
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:17.000
I I I wanted to.
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:21.000
As always, thank you for podcasting with me.
01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:36.000
Oh, my pleasure. I wanted to say if anybody out there has opinions about how was your week, absolutely tell us. I really want to know. And this was a weird topic today because it wasn't so technical.
01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:32.000
Yeah.
01:13:36.000 --> 01:13:45.000
Um, is this an okay thing? Let us know about that, and please, yeah, absolutely, tell us you want more swearing, because I'm happy to provide that.
01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:50.000
And if you have ideas for episodes, we are all ears.
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:51.000
We are.
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:53.000
So, thank you everybody. Bye-bye.
01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.000
Thank you. Bye.