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Welcome to Romani Cent.
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We're your friendly neighborhood gypsies.
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I'm Paulina and I'm Jez.
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And today we have an international relations guest.
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So for anyone who doesn't remember or isn't familiar, a non-Romani person sharing something that we believe the Romani community may want to know about.
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We have discussed before how anti-fortune-telling laws in Europe and the Americas came into effect to persecute Romani people.
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Both on this podcast, we've discussed this with past guests and in our book Secrets of Romani fortune telling, where, as you may know, we offer the cultural context to divination as a survival trade and share how to read in our tradition in the spirit of cultural exchange.
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One of the ways that historians can trace the Romani diaspora is actually from laws persecuting Romani trades, especially fortune telling, as well as our language, movement, and very existence.
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One of these laws in Pennsylvania dating back to 1861, stating any person who shall pretend for gain or lucre by cards, tokens, the inspection of heads or hands of any person, or by anyone's age, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
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The first offense shall be punished by not more than two years' imprisonment, nor less than 15 days.
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This law was updated in 1939 and 1972, but essentially fortune telling for money is a criminal activity in Pennsylvania.
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These laws disproportionately affect Roma and other racialized people and queer people practicing their spiritual and ancestral survival traits, as well as Paulina and I have experienced that personally in our own ways.
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Traditions that we created and survived by are exploited, extracted, and appropriated in New Age spirituality and witchcraft spaces regularly.
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And the laws that are made to oppress us, laws forged in racist and religious prejudice, hurt everyone.
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The interview you're about to hear features an ongoing case of a tarot reader who is not Romani but is persecuted for their trade because of anti-Romani laws.
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This case reminds us that any witch, reader, or spiritual practitioner who disagrees with anti-fortune-telling laws best be practicing allyship with Romani, black, indigenous, and other racionalized and exoticized cultures whose persecution is marked by these laws to begin with.
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Otherwise, these laws and the bigoted mindset they reveal will never change.
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Welcome back.
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Hi guys, thank you so much for having me on and sharing your space with me.
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I am so deeply grateful for the opportunity to talk about what's been going on in Pennsylvania for a little bit.
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Because it's a it's a little bit wacky and weird to be dealing with fortune-telling laws in the 21st century.
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But hey, it's a tale like as old as time, uh, you know.
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Um, and I it is definitely a chapter of my book that I am like my my life's, you know, like metaphorically, uh, that I hope to look back on one day and just laugh about.
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But for now, it is a very serious topic indeed.
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Yeah, for real.
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Can you share a little about yourself, your name, pronouns, what you're here to share with us about this?
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Absolutely.
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Hi, my name is Beck Ravenson.
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I used to say them pronouns.
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I am the owner and operator of the Serpent's Key uh shopping sanctuary, which is a metaphysical store here um in Hanover, Pennsylvania.
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Um, we have it's when I say metaphysical store, it's more of like a witchy consignment store.
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We have um over 40 different local artists and artisans from the community or like from the adjacent community um that stock their wares, everything's like handmade and stuff.
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Um, but right at the beginning, before my store was even open and before we had all of these amazing items in it, I came under fire, shall we say, um, for fortune telling when the police chief of Hanover read an article about my shop and decided to come in and and and attempt to enforce the law on on me prior to even even me opening my store or seeing a client.
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Um so yeah, it was it's been kind of a crazy story, but I can definitely, if you would like, I can dive into like the the details of like kind of how that all shook out.
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Basically, well, spell the tea, spell the tea.
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All right, yes.
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So here's here's what actually happened because I know there's like a lot of a lot of people are like, oh, you must have had a client that turned you in, or like you must have like, you know, get read a bad, you know, given a bad reading or something.
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But um, I had not even seen clients yet.
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So basically, I decided to open my metaphysical store back in 2023 after I went to Salem and I was like, this is cool, but I I feel like I could do this at home.
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Um, like, and because I'm a Virgo, I was like, and I can do it in my own way.
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Um, so I gathered all of my like incredibly talented friends and was like, here's this idea.
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Would you like to put wares in my store?
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And in the beginning of October of 2023, I was really ready to start like building out, getting um inventory on the shelves, and of course, like promoting my business to the local community.
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And something that was really important to me from the beginning was like making sure that um we were an accessible and open space where people could come in and ask questions about the things that we do here without feeling like, oh, the witch is going to hex us.
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So watch out, you know.
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Like, which I mean, fair.
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Maybe that is the attitude I should should anchor, but um no, I really did want it to be a place because Hanover, if you're not familiar with Pennsylvania, is it's kind of we're in south central Pennsylvania, but really close to Lancaster, which is like Amish country.
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So it's very like rural, it's very conservative.
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And I, being, you know, tattooed and gothic and a witch, felt like it would be best to kind of lead with a friendly foot at the very least.
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So um I got in contact with a local nonprofit called Main Street Hanover because they did a feature once a month on a different downtown business.
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And I was like, hey, you know, it would be great to show off my business, especially for the grand opening, because it was supposed to be on October 31st of that year.
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It's solen, it's Halloween, everyone loves everyone loves candy, everyone loves spooky movies.
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Like, come on, it would be a great time, right?
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Um, so that was kind of my my idea going into this interview.
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The article went great, it was beautiful, um, like it was all written up and stuff, and I proved it before it even went out.
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Um, and they posted it on their Facebook page, right?
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On October 3rd, which for anyone listening who likes mean girls, that is also Mean Girls Day.
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So I love that for me.
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Uh no, just kidding.
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Um, because my Regina George was, of course, the police chief of Hanover.
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Um, so it turns out like he like the police chief literally like was on Facebook that morning, read the article, and in the last line, um, it said, and like, you know, here's all these wares, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And also, um, for those interested, you can go online and book a tarot reading service or like session with Beck.
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And that was literally it.
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It was like a sentence.
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It wasn't like, and yes, we can tell promises of riches about, like, it wasn't anything crazy, right?
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But for some reason, that I guess that put a B in his bonnet.
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He ended up calling the um the nonprofit line or like the uh the nonprofit and said, Hey, just so you know, I read the article, and there's a law that dates back to 1861, which is when the Civil War started for context, right?
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Like that's a long time ago.
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And there was a lot of stuff happening like politically and socially around that time as well.
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But, anyways, there's this law that dates back to 1861 that outlaws any sort of fortune telling, including tarot reading.
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And that because he was the police chief, he felt obligated to come and at least inform me of the law.
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And he was like undecided as to whether or not he was going to arrest me that day, which is great, awesome, love that for me.
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Um, so of course, the nonprofit gives me a call and gives me kind of a heads up and like profusely apologized.
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I was like, oh my gosh.
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And so at that point, I made the decision to call a lawyer.
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I was like, hey, this sounds crazy, but the police chief may or may not be coming to my establishment in the next week or so to inform me that I can't do witchcraft, I guess.
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And I literally got laughed at by like the first office that called that I called.
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They were like, we'll see if he even comes in.
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This is just sounds like some cop is throwing his weight around.
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Call us back if anything comes of this.
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Well, cut to now, right?
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Now, anyways.
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A few days later, on October 5th, uh, it was the police chief himself.
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He came in with another unnamed officer who, like, I don't really, I didn't have the wherewithal to get the badge information and stuff, which I should have done, but I didn't because it was alarming.
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Um, they came in, and this is kind of like where things get dicey, right?
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So they were in their police uniforms in like what I'm calling their like casual Friday outfit, which was like a polo with like their logo and like matching khakis and stuff.
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Um, they came in and I asked the police chief, hey man, if you're citing this law to me, can I record our conversation on my phone?
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And he said, no, because he was there as a private citizen.
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And yeah, right.
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And that and that I couldn't record it because it was a private conversation between citizens.
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So I said, okay, man, well, I'm not really comfortable talking to you without a lawyer that's present right now.
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Was it in your in your stores?
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He came into my shop, yeah.
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And I can like, if you guys want, I can send you, I can uh send you the video.
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Like I have security footage of them like coming in.
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Um and it's it's in a different shop location.
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Like I've had to like move just because like I ran out of space, um, but which is a good problem to have.
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But, anyways, um, at that time, they came in, um, they denied me my right to like record the conversation or to have a lawyer.
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And then he kind of just went on to, he was like, Hey, just so you know, this is the law.
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I'm not gonna arrest you today, but if I hear that you're doing this, I'm gonna be back.
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And at that point, I kind of like like I wanted to say a lot of things, but of course, when dealing with law enforcement, the best thing to do is just to be quiet, right?
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And at that point, though, I like pointed out, like, in my defense, like I, even though I feel like I should not have to, I did put up a disclaimer on all of my readings.
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That's like, hey man, I am not like a doctor, a lawyer, a candlestick maker.
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Like, I this is tarot.
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Like, you know what you are getting into.
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I really believe in informed consent, and nobody really thinks that I did anything other than go to art school and learn how to shuffle cards, man.
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Like, I really, you know, the master of the universe with all the dude.
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If I knew that, I wouldn't be having the problems that I have.
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Like, yeah.
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Truly.
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And a lot of readers find their ways around these laws, um, you know, readers of all backgrounds by saying this is for entertainment purposes only.
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I had to do that when I lived in New York, you know.
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And that was something that because I so the other thing, the other problem that this case brings up is I'm not the only metaphysical shop in Hanover, much less in Pennsylvania.
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Like, I personally have patronized many like local establishments because I love them.
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I love having my cards read.
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Like, are you kidding me?
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Like, of course, I want to go for an energy work session.
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This is not just like a business for me.
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This is like a love.
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Like, this is my life, right?
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So I had had my cards read um for my birthday, and I asked the woman um who was running the store over in Gettysburg, which is like, I mean, it has been there, as she said, longer than you've been alive, sweetheart, which was very cute.
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But she basically told me that like as long as she'd had the uh her place, she'd never really been bothered by the police, but that she always had a sign that said for entertainment purposes only.
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And if that made me feel better, then I should do that too.
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Like, which again, I think is fair.
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And and as like a business owner, it's always good to have stuff in writing, just so you have that to fall back on.
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But he um, when I pointed this out to the police chief, and this is seared into my brain, he literally looked at it, he goes, Those little pieces of paper will never hold up in court.
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Yeah, dude.
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And then I just at that point, all I said was, Okay, officer, thank you for letting me know.
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Have a nice rest of your day.
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And then they left.
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I really didn't want, well, one, I didn't want to get arrested, so I wasn't trying to put up a fight, but I also like I never want to portray the community that we have here, right?
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Like, uh, whether it's of diviners, of witches, of page, whatever you define yourself as, as unprofessional, right?
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Like, I really wanted to be like, hey, listen, man, like I I know you don't really respect me or like think that what we're doing here is special, but I'm still here and willing to like treat you with uh human decency and like not just yell and scream and you know, reject dialogue.
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Seems like that's what he was here to do, but I digress.
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That's just you know.
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Um, so after all of that, basically I posted about it on the internet and it act-I was not expecting as many people to see it as they did.
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Um, to the point that my mom called me and was like, hey, so why are you on my newsfeed right now?
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Like, what's happening?
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And I'm like, I don't know, not uh, please.
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So basically it blows up and I got a call from another lawyer um who is my present representation.
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And basically she was like, Hey, so did you know that your First Amendment rights were just like severely violated by a law enforcement officer?
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And I was like, Yeah, but like, what am I gonna do about it?
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And she said, Well, we can sue them for once if you would like.
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And if you would like, we could also try to get the law off the books so that way you don't, and no one has to deal with this ever again.
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And in that moment, I was, you know, when you're faced with this to say, tarot, this two of swords choice, right?
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Between a rock and a hard place, where you're like, Well, shoot, I have to pick, right?
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Um, I I said yes.
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I said, yeah, let's do it.
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I I feel like this is something that um if we have a chance to like address it now, I think it needs to be done because it's been on the books long enough and has been an issue for so many people throughout history that it it really needs to be taken care of now so it doesn't affect anyone moving forward.
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So we went back and forth.
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We uh ended up filing the lawsuit, I believe, on October 30th, uh 31st, which was supposed to be my grand opening date, which was really crazy, right?
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And then we went, we had to go back and forth with the borough because basically they were not guaranteeing that they wouldn't enforce the law even though I was challenging it, which is not allowed.
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So after up until February of yeah, it was a little bit over a year.
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Oh, uh February of 2025, I was granted what's called a temporary injunction, uh, which basically says they can't use the tarot reading law against me as long as I am challenging it in court.
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So basically it has given me some relief that they're not just gonna come like knocking on my door if I'm in the middle of reading with a client.
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Um, which is like, again, a really big step because the fact that the court even agreed to that is crazy.
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But because of all of this, because it's now challenging a lot on the PA books, my case has now been escalated up to a state level.
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So basically it's like Beck versus the state of Pennsylvania, which I'm like, hello, what do you mean?
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Um, and the idea.
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Yeah, I'm like, hello?
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Is this thing on?
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What's happening?
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Um so basically the idea being like, hey, this law violates the First Amendment in a lot of ways, but a couple other amendments to the US Constitution and should have never been put into the PA legal codes, like ever.
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Like it should never have been able to pass.
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So because of that, the DA for Pennsylvania has also gotten involved directly with my case because they have to.
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Um, so they've been trying to dismiss it for over a year.
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And about two weeks ago, I finally got a call.
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The judge in my case um denied all of their um attempts to dismiss it and has said, no, this has to see a trial.
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Like it has to see a hearing and it has to like be be ruled on.
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Like we're not just gonna let this lie.
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So I know it seems like a very small victory, but I have a phone call with the court on July 22nd to set up a timeline of, hey, we're gonna enter discovery, and this is when this deadline is, and then this is when the hearing will be.
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So it's incredibly um, it's incredibly encouraging that after almost three years of kind of filing a lot of paperwork, might I say, um, that there's actually some some tangible movement on this.
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There's also been, like in the meantime, there's been a bill that I worked with a senator on to, excuse me, a house representative, I should say, um, to be introduced to the House of Representatives.
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It's HV 1562, um, which abolishes the tarot or the fortune-telling ban.
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So it um was introduced and passed the Judiciary Committee, um, a vote of 13 to 12, which I thought was incredibly, you know, it was close, right?
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But incredibly mystical, that number 13.
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And it is now, it's tabled for now, but there is a chance that it could be voted on during this House session if enough people ask for them to.
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Now, whether, yeah, whether or not it is before the court, like it either way, there is there are things in place or things that I've tried to get in place to get this law off the books.
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It's just kind of like a waiting game as to who's going to act first, the court system or the legislation, which is kind of neat.
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I know.
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It's it's been a crazy like three years of my life.
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So sorry to like trauma dump or like steamroll all of that.
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Yeah, yeah, I know.
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Seriously, but like overall, kind of what has your experience been dealing with the court system?
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Like, how has that even been?
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So I'm really lucky that like I have a good lawyer who like does all a lot of that for me, right?
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But I also this is like not confirmed, but like I I like have a feeling.
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I was trying to process divorce papers during all of this, and it kept getting denied for very stupid fucking reasons, to the point that like the lawyer that I had doing that was like, Did you piss off someone in the York County court system?
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And I'm like, Well, maybe like it was it was one of those things.
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So I'm not this is a legend, like whatever, but there are definitely like instances where I do feel like there is some stalling, like they don't want to deal with this.
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Every time there was a deadline for like a response from opposing counsel, whether it was from the borough or from the state, they would always wait till like the last day and then ask for an extension.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:24.079
Like, do you know what I mean?
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:37.519
So it's kind of like people don't want to deal with this or don't want to address it because either they think it's stupid and isn't worth the time, or are like of the belief that it should remain as it is.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:39.839
Definitely it's frustrating.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.519
Maybe it's because I have a Taurus moon and a lot of Virgo placements.
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.000
I don't know.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:50.240
I am so about malicious compliance where it's like, okay, man, I will fill out any form.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:56.160
I will fill out every single piece of paper that you put across my desk if it makes this happen.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.559
Tell me what to do, and I will exceed.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:00.480
I'll I'll give it to you in triplicate.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.440
I don't care.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:07.279
So to me, it's it has been frustrating, but that's kind of the court system side of it.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.640
The social side of it has been crazy in a good way.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:14.960
Like I really feel this kind of negative um event.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.960
Yeah, it it sucked.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.559
Like, yes, I got yelled at by two grown men, but like who hasn't?
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.440
Like, you know, like whatever, I'll go to my room, dad.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.559
Like shit.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:37.119
I really, I feel like a lot of people and like surprisingly, people on either side of the aisle, like politically, have been like very supportive of the fight.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:43.279
Even people who are like, I don't really like what you're doing, and I don't really get it, and I don't care about it, but like you deserve to do it.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:44.240
Interesting.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:54.400
Yeah, and like it's been Yeah, it is, especially in Hanover, which is again like that very conservative kind of um very small town vibes.
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.079
I grew up outside of DC, so like moving here, I was like, whoa.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.519
But I do really think this.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:11.119
Negative event, the witchy community around here has been able to like alchemize into something very positive to change it from something oh undesirable, like lead, right?
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:12.640
Into something good like gold.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.160
So I that's kind of the thing that I keep keeping in the back of my mind.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:21.759
Well, that's what we wanted to ask too is how has this case affected your visibility and your business?
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:27.200
It's good to know that you have some supporters, but what does that look like concretely?
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:28.960
It's so it's amazing.
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:36.880
Like I really like I feel like we almost put out like a bat signal where it was like, hello, are you kind of weird in the tri-state area?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.119
Come here and hang out with us.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.960
And that's that's awesome.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:56.079
Um, it's it's very like humbling as well because like obviously everyone wants to have a successful shop, but I am consistently grateful for like the the sheer amount of people that I've I've met in the last two years alone is insane.
00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:05.200
And the opportunities that this has spawned for me, like I I just I hope that I never come off as like magnanimous, you know, raggadocious.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:09.200
Because it's like it is very, very humbling that I get to sit in these rooms.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.359
Like I got to go to the House of Representatives to talk to like lawmakers.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.920
Like, what are we what uh me?
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:17.599
Dude, what are you talking about?
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.440
I'm just hanging out with my rocks.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:19.920
What?
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:36.160
So I I do think that um it has definitely it has, of course, very much boosted our visibility, but also I think really allowed the pagan community and like the witchy adjacent earth-based spirituality, whatever, to really blossom in and around York County.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:43.039
So it's like it's been really, really cool to see how that has has kind of ha come up a little bit in the last couple years.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:44.880
Yeah, that's so amazing.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.000
It's also interesting too for from our perspective.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:55.119
I mean, Paulina has had her shots shut down because neighbors didn't want a quote unquote gypsy giving readings in town.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:02.000
And it's we it's interesting to hear the okay, so I feel like you are using your privil privilege for good.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:04.000
Like you are leveraging your privilege.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:04.319
Yeah.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:10.640
This is not the kind of response that generally Roma who experience the like fallout from these laws go through.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:17.440
And it's I like that you are taking the energy to be like, and we should change this law so it doesn't screw anything.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:30.079
I get that I look like this, and this is like very much something that people will like repost or like want to put on the news.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.119
The weird little goth girl, like in the you know what I mean?
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.720
Um, but that is also part of a deeper issue.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.039
And I think, and this is like maybe like part of why I'm so serious about it.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:48.000
I'm half Puerto Rican, so like I saw my dad, people would be fucking racist to him in public.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.920
Like, people would think like he was trying to like kidnap me and stuff.
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:53.599
What are we talking about?
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:03.119
So I do kind of have that sense of like, okay, wait, I can do things for people in spaces that maybe others would not be able to.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:14.640
And like, I do really think that the history of this law, specifically targeting the Roma population, and again, other marginalized folks too, sure, but like specifically that.
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:31.839
Because if you look at when this law, sorry, not to be on a history ramp, but when you look at when this law went into place, 1861, about 10 years prior to that, in the 1850s, there was a huge movement of immigration of Roma people into Pennsylvania.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.559
And they were really uh like there was an influx into communities like Lancaster and York.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:49.519
And because in that community, tarot reading and card reading was a way to like exchange money, and it was kind of almost done like via cash or like via like exchanging of goods and services, the government couldn't tax it.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:54.799
So if you look at where it is in the Pennsylvania law book, it's between horse racing and gambling.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.720
It's seen as something like, yeah, it's not even like a religious thing.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:06.960
It's almost seen as like this, I don't know, like a vagabond kind of law, or like like this this is something that is like not good for our community.
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:17.599
So it is really rooted in that racism because when you look at the practices that they outline in that law, they talk about like necromancy and love spells and powders and poet.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.599
Like that's all folk magic.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.960
Like that's all stuff that was being done.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:33.039
Yes, by 100% by Roma people, but also in Hanover, Pennsylvania pow hours, like the Pennsylvania Dutch, were actually prosecuted under a lot of these same laws too.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:41.279
So they would they were like faith healers, and yes, they used the Bible, but it was still and Hanover actually is like a huge hub for that.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.599
So I've been able to learn about that as uh along with some of the other traditions.
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:46.880
So it's it's very cool.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:51.839
I'm sorry to go again on a little rant about history, but um again, part of why you're here.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:52.559
Yeah, right.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:53.359
No, I know.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:10.799
And we are so lucky to be here with a special guest to offer you a bonus history segment for those of you who wanted to know more about the historical context of the anti-fortune-telling laws in PA.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:12.799
We have Rissa Miller with us.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.480
Would you like uh mind introducing yourself, who you are, and what you do to the audience?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.519
Absolutely.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:18.960
My name is Rissa.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.599
I am a public historian and folklorist.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:28.000
I specialize in sort of dark and esoteric pockets of history and in the mid-Atlantic region.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:33.039
So I have been researching this for two reasons for a very long time.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:40.160
First, um, I do a lot of talks about the history of things that are associated with witchcraft.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:47.039
And I wouldn't necessarily fortune telling and witchcraft are the same, they are not, but a lot of people put them under the same umbrella.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.519
And also because I myself have a Roma heritage.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:28:01.839
And it is of great interest to me to learn more about it since um all of the full-blooded Roma members of my family died as of COVID in 2021.
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:08.319
So, that said, I am excited to share with you um this little tiny swath of my research.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:16.480
So the Pennsylvania law isn't just a strange relic that appeared out of nowhere, it grew out of a much older legal tradition.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:24.160
Uh, for centuries, British laws had associated fortune telling with so-called Egyptians, the people we now recognize as Roma.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.799
And they also associated them with vagrancy and public disorder.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.319
Those ideas filtered into America.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:38.799
So, taking a long view, Roma immigration to the United States did not happen in a single wave.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:43.200
There were Roma people here as early as during the colonial era.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:53.039
But um, we're going to talk more about the big first wave that came in the mid-19th century, especially from England, Wales, and Scotland.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:29:03.440
And they were coming for the same reasons many other immigrants did: economic opportunity, social mobility, and escape from discrimination and economic disruption in Europe.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.079
There was a lot of discrimination in England.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:09.279
Sometimes people would be arrested just for being Roma.
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.319
Like that was their whole entire offense in England.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:21.519
So this first larger wave came, and it matters to Pennsylvania because it overlaps a period when the state passed its anti-fortune-telling law.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:29.039
And uh Roma families were moving through, they were settling all across the mid-Atlantic, um, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Maryland.
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.200
Pennsylvania made a lot of sense though.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:32.160
It was big.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:38.319
There were cities and rural communities, and its infrastructure was growing really, really rapidly.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:49.519
Roads, railroads, industry, and there were places where Roma people, who were often tradespeople and skilled, could survive and make a living.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.599
So in Pennsylvania, the Roma were not simply fortune tellers.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.119
Um, I really love throwing water on this idea right out of the gate.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:12.559
Um, many worked as horse trainers, livestock dealers, basket makers, broommakers, metal workers, musicians, animal handlers, and there were a lot of Roma people who were very skilled at all sorts of repair as well as industry kinds of work.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:22.000
Fortune telling was one occupation among many, but if you were to look into American popular culture, you would think that was all that Roma people did.
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.400
Americans became fixated on it.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:33.519
The idea of the Roma fortune teller, especially the female Roma fortune teller, became a huge almost stereotype or cliche.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.759
Like there were postcards of her, and she always looks the same.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:46.880
It's just fascinating how the public becomes fixated on this complex ethnic community and just sort of shrinks it down to this one idea.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:55.599
So in 1852, we see the first two women in Philadelphia prosecuted for fortune telling.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.880
They are Mary Ann Clinton and Susan Spearing.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.079
The charges are fortune telling and conjuration.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:07.920
Now, the newspapers in Philadelphia at the time flay the government for this.
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.160
They make it into what sounds like a joke.
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:16.559
And um, the idea behind it though, even though a lot of more educated people were like, this is ridiculous.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.559
Like, why are we, why are we doing this?
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:25.359
It tells us that Pennsylvania has stopped treating these practices as a threat to the soul, and now they're treating them as fraud.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.440
So at the same time, uh fascinating twist, another movement is taking off.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:32.799
It is spiritualism.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.880
Now, in the spiritual practice, women are professional mediums.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:46.559
They're leading seances and publicly lecturing about spirits and ghosts, and they're earning money for the first time in a big way in America.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:54.480
Now, to understand Pennsylvania's anti-fortune-telling law, it helps to remember what else was happening in the state and the nation in 1861.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.319
This was not a quiet time in American history.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.000
Seven Southern states had already seceded from the Union at that moment.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:07.920
Um, Abraham Lincoln had only been in office for a little over a month, and the country was bracing for war.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:15.680
No one knew exactly what would happen next, but there was an unmistakable sense that the nation was at a huge crossroads.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:29.759
Pennsylvania itself was changing rapidly, both because, like I said, immigration was reshaping the state's population, and Philadelphia had become one of the nation's largest port cities, like Philadelphia and Pennsylvania.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.480
Well, they were together, but they weren't.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.279
So it is a wild time.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:42.000
Harrisburg is already the state capital since 1812, and there's a lot of industry transportation around there as well.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:50.799
So it is in this atmosphere that Pennsylvania approves the Act for Suppression of Fortune Telling on April 8th, 1861.
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:57.759
Four days later, the Confederate forces fire on Fort Sumner in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina, and the Civil War begins.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.559
Now, these two things, to be clear, are not related, but they do affect each other.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.279
Well, in Pennsylvania anyway, they affect each other.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.599
So immediately President Lincoln puts out the call to support the war effort.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:19.279
So we have this few-day-old law, and now suddenly the Commonwealth is much more worried about preparing soldiers and manufacturing weapons and supporting the war effort.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:24.480
And these things that were just a moment ago a concern, nobody cares.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.319
You know, suddenly nobody cares.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:32.480
Like I said, they're not necessarily related to each other, but it is really important to put them into perspective.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:56.559
So going forward, this kind of is noteworthy because it captures what society was grappling with, like this rapid social change that society was grappling with, the questions of public trust, the questions of other, because Roma people were definitely other to colonists who had been here, you know, over a hundred years already and whose families had been established.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:06.720
Now, this is not necessarily about tarot cards, but um it is a window into the mind of the 19th century Pennsylvanian.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:14.079
There are ideas about fraud, about who can be trusted to speak with authority, and how marginalized groups are going to be treated.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:18.960
What is interesting is um this law is asking a broader question.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:24.239
In my mind, it is about who gets to define what counts as legitimate work.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.800
Who gets to define that?
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:33.760
What so spiritualism is legitimate work, but fortune telling isn't, like, because that's a real gray area.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:42.239
I thought it was interesting to note as well that this law was passed only a few years after the slavery of Roma people was abolished in Romania.
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:51.440
And um, again, not related, but noteworthy to say, and also noteworthy that Pennsylvania wasn't alone in its anti-fortune-telling laws.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.800
At that time in history, many states had them.
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.400
And um, a lot of times they were tied up with other things.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:03.440
So this one is tied up not just with fortune telling, but love spells and treasure maps.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:11.360
But um, say in New Jersey, they had a law that also included uh wandering persons, confidence tricksters, and gamblers.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.679
What is also interesting is that that's so racialized.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:18.159
Sorry.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:26.079
Yeah, it's all about being what in that language at the time was disorderly persons.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.559
Disorderly persons.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:37.599
So um Pennsylvania did also uh go through its law books in both 1939 and 1972, and they left this law on the books.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.400
So that's like a quick, rapid history of all of this.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.840
I'm just I could honestly listen to you talk all day.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.320
We have to have you back on for your own full episode.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.760
This was riveting.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.840
I oh, I'm so glad you liked it.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.840
Paulina, do you have any questions?
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:00.000
No, I feel like this was really amazing, informative, and everybody needs to know this.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.320
There's still laws here, like we have to place like for entertainment only, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.119
Like what the hell Well, this isn't the only state with this law.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:11.599
I I actually really want to write a book called American Fortune Teller about this these laws.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:17.280
And I've been researching, I've been researching them for years, but um, it's not an easy thing to pick at.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:18.719
I have to keep picking at it.
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:24.000
Um but uh What is making it difficult to uh pursue that out of curiosity?
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:38.719
Well, because not all the laws are statewide, some of them are countywide, some of them are only in certain cities, and um, so say Virginia doesn't have a fortune teller's law per se, but some towns in Virginia do, like Norfolk just repealed theirs.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.519
So it's kind of like it's so specific.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:48.880
And to try to do American fortune telling, it's also not the feelings about the it aren't the same on the east and west coast.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:56.079
So it's kind of like in my fantasies, I get to interview fortune tellers from every state.
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.840
And that will take a lot of time and probably money.
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.719
But um, all of that said, it is fascinating.
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:07.920
So, like in Rhode Island, for example, palmistry is still illegal, but you can read tarot cards.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Why?
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:10.800
Why?
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:11.840
You know?
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:19.360
So many just digging back into the history of that and the complexities, like, why was palm reading taboo?
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:20.639
Yeah.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.920
Yeah, and that's something that I associate so much with Roma.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.920
Obviously, we're not the only group that does that, but you know, yeah, that's so fascinating.
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.119
I know that in Tennessee, um, reading cowrie shells is illegal.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.199
And I'm like, well, that is very anti-black.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:38.719
Okay, like we're seeing it is well, that's probably like a who do food uh who do voodoo kind of fear.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.039
Like people are scared of conjure women there, I guess.
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:42.079
Or they were.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:42.800
Yeah.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:43.840
Oh my gosh.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.119
This was such a joy to be able to speak with you.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.880
Thank you so much for sharing this research.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.159
I'd be happy to come back.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.119
We want that.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.400
Whatever you want to talk about, we're down.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:59.119
Um, and you also, is there anything that you wanted to share with the audience about how to find you, support your work?
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.360
Because I know um you do lots of interesting things.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.199
You're a very interesting multi-hyphenate.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:04.159
I do.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:07.599
So I I do carry on my family legacy of fortune telling.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.840
I learned to read tarot cards as an eight-year-old girl at my grandmother's um uh uh table.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:18.079
And that was even through the Satanic Panic, which is a whole other ball of wax.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:21.920
Talk about another time the Roma were, you know, not thought of well.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.760
And um I am still a tarot card reader.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:33.039
I am a tea leaf reader, and that is a thing I taught myself to rebel against my family's tarot card tradition.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:35.280
Oh, the things we do.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:41.360
Um, I am also a ghost tour guide and a historian, and I love to give little lectures.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.760
I I get excited about everything.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.679
I love learning and sharing.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.199
If anybody wants to find me, I am at tsmoke.com.
00:38:52.400 --> 00:39:00.719
It's just I've learned so much, not only about Pennsylvania, but about the the roots of this law and like how it goes back.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:09.280
Like the language that they use dates back to like they basically just copy and pasted stuff from like King James, and he's the worst dude.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:16.239
So yeah, it's definitely something that I think a lot of people are like not really educated about.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:27.519
Because it isn't like again, it's kind of weird, it's kind of off the wall, but I think it is really important, especially if if you're learning tarot, if you're learning divination, but especially if you're making money off of it.
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:34.719
And if this is your way of life, you need to understand one, one, that it's a privilege that we get to do this at all, right?
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:43.360
Um, but also like what has happened in the past that like has allowed us to get to like where we are more able to.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:52.719
I had another woman, I'm so sorry, like another story, but I had uh a woman who is, I don't want to age her, so I feel bad, but she's probably in her 70s, right?
00:39:52.960 --> 00:40:05.199
And she in the 1970s, um, she brought me actually a uh a Roma flag, the blue and green and like with the red wheel that was entrusted to her in the 70s by like Roma activists.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.039
And she was like, Do you understand what this is?
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.280
And I was like, Artemis, of course I do.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:20.079
So it I got to sit with her and talk with her, and she told me a lot of stories about how important this fight really is, while I was already in it for the for the long haul.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:30.480
It just really solidifies over and over how important this is, not only to witches now, but maybe like, you know, generationally back and generationally forward too.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:22.719
It does feel that way, like in the spiritual realm, like what's going on up there, including like what's going on here, like this great kind of mass change.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.280
And I just want to say definitely thank you.
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.000
Because, yeah, thank you for talking about this.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:31.840
Thank you for talking about Roma.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.039
I have experienced, yeah, like so much racism.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:36.400
I have left stores.
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:45.199
People have said, like, we owners, you know, of course, like owners are like, I don't want gypsies running around here, and which is so ridiculous.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:58.800
And and we have had, we got we got a letter last week because we like put a pride flag out, and someone sent us literally like a cut and paste, like a serial killer letter that was like, keep your sexuality to yourself.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:16.320
Like, we get like little things like that, but I I think uh yeah, I and I'm so sorry that you've not had the same positivity that I have had, because I think everyone really deserves to have the uplifting of their community in the ways that Hanover has uplifted me.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:22.960
So I hope that, and I'm sending all of the positive vibes, you know, uh that that happens because you deserve it, dude.
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:27.519
When you have a brick and mortar, and I think this is something that is like really important as well.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:36.880
When you have a brick and mortar space and you invite people in, you're creating a sacred, like a sanctuary and a sacred place for people to experience spirituality.
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:59.360
And so much of spirituality is online these days that I really think that the community, like what it's almost like we we've reached kind of like a point where we need to come back to like the in-person, the the actual grounded, hey, let's sit down together and like meditate, share a meal, and just talk like human beings, actually, instead of whatever behind the screen.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:06.639
So yeah, I think that I really hope that I hope that your community continues to grow and that you're uplifted because you deserve it.
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:07.440
You do.
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:16.960
I actually wanted to ask you, how has this experience affected your relationship to a womany allyship?
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.880
So I really um I first of all, I hope to do so properly.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.239
Like I'm always kind of like, I hope it's okay that I'm talking about this.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:32.159
Um, because I never want to like outshine or outvoice actual Roma voices, right?
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:34.960
Because that's it's not me and that's not my place.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.800
Um, but we do, we sell your guys' books, um, or book, I should say.
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:45.920
And I do really um in all of my um I do have some presentations about the history of tarot.
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:55.199
So I touch on the origins and like some of the the practices that are specific not specifically Romani, but like that you guys talk about a little bit in your book, talk about the history.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Um, and I make sure that people who come in, you know, saying perhaps the G slur.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.760
are educated on that and like, hey, we don't do that anymore, actually.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.960
Like this is not something that is okay here.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.239
You know, do with this information what you will.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:25.360
So I do really, I hope that um I hope that these actions can like continue to shine through and that it kind of continues to ripple throughout the, throughout the community, because it is something that people don't really know about.
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:28.559
Like a lot of people are like, are you talking about people from Romania?
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.079
And I'm like, uh I mean like there might be Romani people in Romania.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.719
I don't probably but like I not specifically like that is very different.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:54.800
So I I, you know, I I do really there is that fine line of elevating Romani voices and really elevating the issues as best I can while also using like you said like my privilege to be like hey actually knock knock hello I let me into the courthouse now.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:05.599
Give me the keys actually because I know you will yeah I mean I think that's the thing right there is just continuing to educate people and elevate Romani voices.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.440
And you know there are um lots of wonderful Romani readers and activists out there.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:26.079
And I think what we try to do in Romani san is create an easy to find list for people who if they want to figure out like which Romani nonprofit do they want to donate to or can they read about the history of slavery in Romania of Roma people.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.280
Like we try to make it really easy to find that stuff.
00:45:29.360 --> 00:46:24.880
And so we appreciate you shouting out Roma directly because exactly you don't want to pretend to be an expert or like speak to over people but rather just be like and here look yeah dude I I really and that's also something that I hope to like kind of not instill in other people but maybe model is you don't need to be an expert or like divinely chosen in like there's no there's no possible way dude for everyone to know everything all the time right um again I would probably dress better and not have the anxiety that I have but I I really hope that people especially in the community who do have that ancestry as well because again there are a lot of people who move to this area so of course you do right I hope that they feel more able to connect with and get in touch with the wider Romani community because it is I know it's there.
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:27.760
And again I like link a lot of you guys' stuff.
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.960
Sorry if that's like you know we really appreciate it social.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:47:00.559
But it is a really fabulous aggregate I feel like it is a perfect resource site where people are wanting to learn more about it or learn more more about their own heritage if it's something that they have been disconnected from because I mean any diasporic culture like Puerto Rico let's talk about the Puerto Rican diaspora you know like I feel that dude and that's why I think it is so important to give people that opportunity to reconnect without feeling like hey I'm the one to reconnect you.
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:03.679
It's like no here's a book though and you could probably talk to them.
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:05.519
So no we appreciate it.
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:25.840
I mean honestly like I think this is a good example because sometimes people want to be allies but they don't know how it's literally including Roma in your spaces and your platform and like rather than talking about the things that we talk about it's referring to stocking our book or our materials or you know all of that stuff is a really good example of allyship.
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:33.679
And I mean you're definitely fighting this case for yourself but ever since Paulina and I found it we're like also like and you're fighting for us.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:46.400
No a hundred percent yes I and I I really hope that that shines through like most because like honestly dude I don't give a shit about me like whatever like the police can come in here and do whatever I'm sure honestly you should fight for yourself.
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:47.679
There's nothing wrong with that.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:54.000
There is a little bit of like I do kind of want to stick it to the man absolutely but I don't want you to go to jail.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:00.239
Right right totally yeah it seems like a little uncomfy but I also I don't like bullies.
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:17.920
I would hate for this to have to happen to anybody else not to be like most people aren't as as much of an asshole as me but like honestly it does take a lot to stand up in the face of of someone coming in telling you we're going to arrest you for witchcraft or tarot or whatever.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:28.320
And I think if I can prevent people from having to go through that, I would like to at least try whether or not I'm successful hoping to be successful.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:39.199
Speaking of speaking of could you share with us what is the outcome you're hoping for and how can people support you in being successful.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:54.079
Perfect so um the outcome that we're hoping for is straight abolishing the law like I we do not want any like nothing like no witch's license like no one should there should not be any barrier of entry for diviners.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:55.280
You shouldn't have to deal with that.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.039
So it is it's an unconstitutional law get it off the books.
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:15.679
Yes daddy yes that is it that is that's the vibe and so like that's what that's like the outcome that I'm hoping for um and and I really I I really believe it's possible to because it it's our argument is very sound in my opinion.
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:23.039
In terms of like helping me honestly man my lawyer is doing me the beautiful gift of working pro bono for me.
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:30.400
So um because it's like a a case challenging the state um the state takes care of court fees basically which is cool.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:58.159
So in terms of help like honestly like reposting videos and like sharing the word is honestly the best because my goal is to educate people that this is a problem right and that there might be laws like this in your not necessarily in your state but your locality for example it's legal to read tarot cards in the state of Maryland but not in Baltimore City right so you can't yeah um which is the place I used to live and I uh was definitely illegal cards there.
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:06.159
Whoops uh no but yeah it is definitely a it's something that still today there's little echoes of it in our space.
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:21.199
So if if anything else I just want people to like know about it so that way they can be aware and protect themselves so this doesn't happen to anybody else you know I don't even know if this is like off topic or on topic.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:52:45.199
I don't even know but I just have the urge to say it what are the odds that the police chief read a post remembered the law walked in there this is how I know for sure this was not odds don't fucking exist like that's I know coincidences are not fucking real yeah it's real interesting you know like I I I really I don't know and honestly if that is the pure coincidence and chance honestly it would track because that's my luck like you know what I mean like I yeah like there definitely I think already was some like kind of wariness and we were not the only store in town like I was like the fifth one in town like it was not like new so yeah it's definitely an interesting story and I'll be really curious to see what comes out in discovery and like what what happens when it's like so how did you come across this who told you what prompted this and why didn't you file an official report but have you heard from the police officers like himself yeah like what is he saying himself he so he actually um no longer is the police chief he retired last year um yeah like one year shy of 30 years or something like that and I was like good um but he through his lawyer has stayed silent on all of this they did make a post on Facebook that is like their most famous whatever like most viral post they commented on the incident was like this individual is blowing it out of proportion or like whatever like yeah it was really crazy to have the literal beef just like nothing less literally yeah dude I Hanover is a very safe place to live don't get me wrong like there's not a whole lot that happens here so like maybe I you know maybe I am the worst thing in town but I highly doubt it hide your wife hide your kids for real I got my cards like watch out you know oh wow yeah I mean it's amazing because it's I think you have done a really good job of turning terrifying challenge into an opportunity for positive change.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:53.599
It kind of reminds me of the Wheel of Fortune card where it's sometimes things that seem terrible actually it's an opportunity for you to do something big.
00:52:53.920 --> 00:53:14.079
Yeah for sure and I really well again regardless of the outcome I really just hope that this helps people stay safe from the powers that be, you know, um because as the political climate shifts it has become more and more relevant I think especially since 2023 and beyond.
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:30.719
Yeah yeah absolutely well we so appreciate you uh taking this time with us and chatting with us and we wish you luck and hope that you are successful and anyone who wants to support you where can they follow you to repost and uh cheer you on.
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:32.320
Yes, thank you guys so much.
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:44.400
Um so you can find me over on TikTok and Instagram under the stitching witch and then the uh over on Instagram the shop is just the serpent's key with underscores between the words and I am trying to keep everybody updated.
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:57.679
I'm doing a tarot poll every day until I get my um my my trial date which I think is gonna be fun and then of course I'm gonna be keeping everyone updated as much as I can with all of the information that I have as soon as I get it.
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:20.159
So um yeah absolutely TikTok Instagram are like the main ones we're over on Facebook if you want to dip your foot into that pool but I would not blame you for not and then I don't know I'm a scourge on the internet I'm sure I'll pop up other places too so amazing oh my gosh well we really appreciate your time and let us know if there's anything else we can do to boost this message.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.039
Thank you thank you so much for having me I so appreciate it.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:55:54.719
Thank you so so much we don't again what she said or what what they said sorry oh my goodness I love it I love it so listeners we actually forgot to announce some very important and pertinent news about Paulina's new shop location because we got so excited and caught up in Beck's news but Paulina why don't you tell us about your shop so I just opened a shop in San Diego in Pacific Beach and it's basically a little spiritual community space where people can get readings and coaching and just explore all of things that are create creative you know so people can also come here and like maybe drink a little tea do a little paint it's like as a little art studio as well as a little apothecary so I have a ton of skincare products and they're natural things that you find in your house like laundry soap and dish soap bars, plastic free deodorants, toothpaste like our regular daily use items so we can help kind of promote more natural plastic free um chemical free ways of living and yeah it's it's a really nice space for people that are looking for readings.
00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:21.519
I'm also going to be doing some events so book readings as well as sound bowl meditations and group meditations so if you guys are in the area check it out and I'm also still here online for readings as well so my schedule is a lot more open and you can book with me on my website romaniholistic.com my schedule is all on Call and Lee so I'd appreciate if you guys would check it out.
00:56:21.840 --> 00:57:00.480
Absolutely it is so important to support brick and mortar stores especially your store is called RomaniHolistic like it's visible so um San Diego community you know if you're coming through for tourism reasons or adventures please support in person and of course always book online too I don't have a storefront but you can always book with me at jasminavontila.com if you want a tarot palm or tea leaf reading but this is a really big deal that you have your shop open here and we would love it if you followed RomaniHolistic on Instagram and shared anything that you're sharing there.
00:57:00.639 --> 00:58:04.400
Of course you can always support us on the regular channels too but we would love RomaniHolistic to have more visibility for listening to Romanistan Podcast you can find us on Instagram TikTok and Facebook at Romanasan Podcast and on Twitter at Romanasanpod to support us join our Patreon for extra content or just donate to our coffee fundraiser ko-fi.com backslash romanasan and please rate review and subscribe it helps people find our show it helps us so much you can follow Jez on Instagram at jezmina.vontila and paulina at romani holistic you can get our book Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling online or wherever books are sold.
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:30.719
Visit romanistempodcast dot com for events educational resources and more email us at romanistanpodcast at gmail.com for inquiries Romanistan is hosted by Jasmina von Tila and Paulina Stevens conceived of by Paulina Stevens edited by Victor Pachitz with music by Victor Pachitz and artwork by Elijah Bardo
00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.919
Welcome to Romani Cent.
00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:12.400
We're your friendly neighborhood gypsies.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.119
I'm Paulina and I'm Jez.
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And today we have an international relations guest.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:27.519
So for anyone who doesn't remember or isn't familiar, a non-Romani person sharing something that we believe the Romani community may want to know about.
00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:36.320
We have discussed before how anti-fortune-telling laws in Europe and the Americas came into effect to persecute Romani people.
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:50.799
Both on this podcast, we've discussed this with past guests and in our book Secrets of Romani fortune telling, where, as you may know, we offer the cultural context to divination as a survival trade and share how to read in our tradition in the spirit of cultural exchange.
00:00:51.039 --> 00:01:02.399
One of the ways that historians can trace the Romani diaspora is actually from laws persecuting Romani trades, especially fortune telling, as well as our language, movement, and very existence.
00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:23.280
One of these laws in Pennsylvania dating back to 1861, stating any person who shall pretend for gain or lucre by cards, tokens, the inspection of heads or hands of any person, or by anyone's age, or by consulting the movements of the heavenly bodies shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:29.519
The first offense shall be punished by not more than two years' imprisonment, nor less than 15 days.
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This law was updated in 1939 and 1972, but essentially fortune telling for money is a criminal activity in Pennsylvania.
00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:50.239
These laws disproportionately affect Roma and other racialized people and queer people practicing their spiritual and ancestral survival traits, as well as Paulina and I have experienced that personally in our own ways.
00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:58.560
Traditions that we created and survived by are exploited, extracted, and appropriated in New Age spirituality and witchcraft spaces regularly.
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And the laws that are made to oppress us, laws forged in racist and religious prejudice, hurt everyone.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:12.879
The interview you're about to hear features an ongoing case of a tarot reader who is not Romani but is persecuted for their trade because of anti-Romani laws.
00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:27.599
This case reminds us that any witch, reader, or spiritual practitioner who disagrees with anti-fortune-telling laws best be practicing allyship with Romani, black, indigenous, and other racionalized and exoticized cultures whose persecution is marked by these laws to begin with.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:32.479
Otherwise, these laws and the bigoted mindset they reveal will never change.
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:34.800
Welcome back.
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:40.159
Hi guys, thank you so much for having me on and sharing your space with me.
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:47.120
I am so deeply grateful for the opportunity to talk about what's been going on in Pennsylvania for a little bit.
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Because it's a it's a little bit wacky and weird to be dealing with fortune-telling laws in the 21st century.
00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:59.439
But hey, it's a tale like as old as time, uh, you know.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:12.639
Um, and I it is definitely a chapter of my book that I am like my my life's, you know, like metaphorically, uh, that I hope to look back on one day and just laugh about.
00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.280
But for now, it is a very serious topic indeed.
00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:16.960
Yeah, for real.
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Can you share a little about yourself, your name, pronouns, what you're here to share with us about this?
00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:23.439
Absolutely.
00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.039
Hi, my name is Beck Ravenson.
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I used to say them pronouns.
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I am the owner and operator of the Serpent's Key uh shopping sanctuary, which is a metaphysical store here um in Hanover, Pennsylvania.
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:39.759
Um, we have it's when I say metaphysical store, it's more of like a witchy consignment store.
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We have um over 40 different local artists and artisans from the community or like from the adjacent community um that stock their wares, everything's like handmade and stuff.
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Um, but right at the beginning, before my store was even open and before we had all of these amazing items in it, I came under fire, shall we say, um, for fortune telling when the police chief of Hanover read an article about my shop and decided to come in and and and attempt to enforce the law on on me prior to even even me opening my store or seeing a client.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:30.879
Um so yeah, it was it's been kind of a crazy story, but I can definitely, if you would like, I can dive into like the the details of like kind of how that all shook out.
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Basically, well, spell the tea, spell the tea.
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:34.560
All right, yes.
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So here's here's what actually happened because I know there's like a lot of a lot of people are like, oh, you must have had a client that turned you in, or like you must have like, you know, get read a bad, you know, given a bad reading or something.
00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:50.560
But um, I had not even seen clients yet.
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So basically, I decided to open my metaphysical store back in 2023 after I went to Salem and I was like, this is cool, but I I feel like I could do this at home.
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:05.680
Um, like, and because I'm a Virgo, I was like, and I can do it in my own way.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:11.279
Um, so I gathered all of my like incredibly talented friends and was like, here's this idea.
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Would you like to put wares in my store?
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:26.319
And in the beginning of October of 2023, I was really ready to start like building out, getting um inventory on the shelves, and of course, like promoting my business to the local community.
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And something that was really important to me from the beginning was like making sure that um we were an accessible and open space where people could come in and ask questions about the things that we do here without feeling like, oh, the witch is going to hex us.
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So watch out, you know.
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Like, which I mean, fair.
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Maybe that is the attitude I should should anchor, but um no, I really did want it to be a place because Hanover, if you're not familiar with Pennsylvania, is it's kind of we're in south central Pennsylvania, but really close to Lancaster, which is like Amish country.
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So it's very like rural, it's very conservative.
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And I, being, you know, tattooed and gothic and a witch, felt like it would be best to kind of lead with a friendly foot at the very least.
00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:17.759
So um I got in contact with a local nonprofit called Main Street Hanover because they did a feature once a month on a different downtown business.
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And I was like, hey, you know, it would be great to show off my business, especially for the grand opening, because it was supposed to be on October 31st of that year.
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It's solen, it's Halloween, everyone loves everyone loves candy, everyone loves spooky movies.
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Like, come on, it would be a great time, right?
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Um, so that was kind of my my idea going into this interview.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:44.959
The article went great, it was beautiful, um, like it was all written up and stuff, and I proved it before it even went out.
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.600
Um, and they posted it on their Facebook page, right?
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On October 3rd, which for anyone listening who likes mean girls, that is also Mean Girls Day.
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So I love that for me.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:57.759
Uh no, just kidding.
00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:02.240
Um, because my Regina George was, of course, the police chief of Hanover.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:15.600
Um, so it turns out like he like the police chief literally like was on Facebook that morning, read the article, and in the last line, um, it said, and like, you know, here's all these wares, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:23.199
And also, um, for those interested, you can go online and book a tarot reading service or like session with Beck.
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:24.879
And that was literally it.
00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:26.160
It was like a sentence.
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:33.040
It wasn't like, and yes, we can tell promises of riches about, like, it wasn't anything crazy, right?
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.720
But for some reason, that I guess that put a B in his bonnet.
00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:52.720
He ended up calling the um the nonprofit line or like the uh the nonprofit and said, Hey, just so you know, I read the article, and there's a law that dates back to 1861, which is when the Civil War started for context, right?
00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:54.240
Like that's a long time ago.
00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:59.360
And there was a lot of stuff happening like politically and socially around that time as well.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:06.560
But, anyways, there's this law that dates back to 1861 that outlaws any sort of fortune telling, including tarot reading.
00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:12.160
And that because he was the police chief, he felt obligated to come and at least inform me of the law.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:19.279
And he was like undecided as to whether or not he was going to arrest me that day, which is great, awesome, love that for me.
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:25.839
Um, so of course, the nonprofit gives me a call and gives me kind of a heads up and like profusely apologized.
00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:27.040
I was like, oh my gosh.
00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:31.040
And so at that point, I made the decision to call a lawyer.
00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:42.000
I was like, hey, this sounds crazy, but the police chief may or may not be coming to my establishment in the next week or so to inform me that I can't do witchcraft, I guess.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.799
And I literally got laughed at by like the first office that called that I called.
00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.279
They were like, we'll see if he even comes in.
00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.399
This is just sounds like some cop is throwing his weight around.
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.879
Call us back if anything comes of this.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.600
Well, cut to now, right?
00:08:57.679 --> 00:08:58.639
Now, anyways.
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:03.200
A few days later, on October 5th, uh, it was the police chief himself.
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:12.320
He came in with another unnamed officer who, like, I don't really, I didn't have the wherewithal to get the badge information and stuff, which I should have done, but I didn't because it was alarming.
00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:17.679
Um, they came in, and this is kind of like where things get dicey, right?
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:28.000
So they were in their police uniforms in like what I'm calling their like casual Friday outfit, which was like a polo with like their logo and like matching khakis and stuff.
00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:36.399
Um, they came in and I asked the police chief, hey man, if you're citing this law to me, can I record our conversation on my phone?
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:42.720
And he said, no, because he was there as a private citizen.
00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.039
And yeah, right.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:50.720
And that and that I couldn't record it because it was a private conversation between citizens.
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.759
So I said, okay, man, well, I'm not really comfortable talking to you without a lawyer that's present right now.
00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.399
Was it in your in your stores?
00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:00.240
He came into my shop, yeah.
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.159
And I can like, if you guys want, I can send you, I can uh send you the video.
00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.039
Like I have security footage of them like coming in.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.600
Um and it's it's in a different shop location.
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:15.279
Like I've had to like move just because like I ran out of space, um, but which is a good problem to have.
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:22.159
But, anyways, um, at that time, they came in, um, they denied me my right to like record the conversation or to have a lawyer.
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:27.200
And then he kind of just went on to, he was like, Hey, just so you know, this is the law.
00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:32.799
I'm not gonna arrest you today, but if I hear that you're doing this, I'm gonna be back.
00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:42.399
And at that point, I kind of like like I wanted to say a lot of things, but of course, when dealing with law enforcement, the best thing to do is just to be quiet, right?
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:54.080
And at that point, though, I like pointed out, like, in my defense, like I, even though I feel like I should not have to, I did put up a disclaimer on all of my readings.
00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.879
That's like, hey man, I am not like a doctor, a lawyer, a candlestick maker.
00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:00.320
Like, I this is tarot.
00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.320
Like, you know what you are getting into.
00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:09.759
I really believe in informed consent, and nobody really thinks that I did anything other than go to art school and learn how to shuffle cards, man.
00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:15.039
Like, I really, you know, the master of the universe with all the dude.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.480
If I knew that, I wouldn't be having the problems that I have.
00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:19.039
Like, yeah.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:19.759
Truly.
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:27.200
And a lot of readers find their ways around these laws, um, you know, readers of all backgrounds by saying this is for entertainment purposes only.
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.360
I had to do that when I lived in New York, you know.
00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:40.639
And that was something that because I so the other thing, the other problem that this case brings up is I'm not the only metaphysical shop in Hanover, much less in Pennsylvania.
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:46.399
Like, I personally have patronized many like local establishments because I love them.
00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:47.840
I love having my cards read.
00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:48.879
Like, are you kidding me?
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.679
Like, of course, I want to go for an energy work session.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.399
This is not just like a business for me.
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:55.840
This is like a love.
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.600
Like, this is my life, right?
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:10.799
So I had had my cards read um for my birthday, and I asked the woman um who was running the store over in Gettysburg, which is like, I mean, it has been there, as she said, longer than you've been alive, sweetheart, which was very cute.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:20.320
But she basically told me that like as long as she'd had the uh her place, she'd never really been bothered by the police, but that she always had a sign that said for entertainment purposes only.
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.600
And if that made me feel better, then I should do that too.
00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:25.679
Like, which again, I think is fair.
00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:31.840
And and as like a business owner, it's always good to have stuff in writing, just so you have that to fall back on.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:43.519
But he um, when I pointed this out to the police chief, and this is seared into my brain, he literally looked at it, he goes, Those little pieces of paper will never hold up in court.
00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:45.360
Yeah, dude.
00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:50.559
And then I just at that point, all I said was, Okay, officer, thank you for letting me know.
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:51.919
Have a nice rest of your day.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:52.960
And then they left.
00:12:53.120 --> 00:13:05.679
I really didn't want, well, one, I didn't want to get arrested, so I wasn't trying to put up a fight, but I also like I never want to portray the community that we have here, right?
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:12.799
Like, uh, whether it's of diviners, of witches, of page, whatever you define yourself as, as unprofessional, right?
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:29.200
Like, I really wanted to be like, hey, listen, man, like I I know you don't really respect me or like think that what we're doing here is special, but I'm still here and willing to like treat you with uh human decency and like not just yell and scream and you know, reject dialogue.
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:32.480
Seems like that's what he was here to do, but I digress.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:33.759
That's just you know.
00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:42.320
Um, so after all of that, basically I posted about it on the internet and it act-I was not expecting as many people to see it as they did.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:47.679
Um, to the point that my mom called me and was like, hey, so why are you on my newsfeed right now?
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:48.799
Like, what's happening?
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.039
And I'm like, I don't know, not uh, please.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:57.679
So basically it blows up and I got a call from another lawyer um who is my present representation.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:06.639
And basically she was like, Hey, so did you know that your First Amendment rights were just like severely violated by a law enforcement officer?
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:10.639
And I was like, Yeah, but like, what am I gonna do about it?
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.559
And she said, Well, we can sue them for once if you would like.
00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:21.840
And if you would like, we could also try to get the law off the books so that way you don't, and no one has to deal with this ever again.
00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.480
And in that moment, I was, you know, when you're faced with this to say, tarot, this two of swords choice, right?
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:34.080
Between a rock and a hard place, where you're like, Well, shoot, I have to pick, right?
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:35.759
Um, I I said yes.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.120
I said, yeah, let's do it.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:57.919
I I feel like this is something that um if we have a chance to like address it now, I think it needs to be done because it's been on the books long enough and has been an issue for so many people throughout history that it it really needs to be taken care of now so it doesn't affect anyone moving forward.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:14:59.919
So we went back and forth.
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:08.879
We uh ended up filing the lawsuit, I believe, on October 30th, uh 31st, which was supposed to be my grand opening date, which was really crazy, right?
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:20.320
And then we went, we had to go back and forth with the borough because basically they were not guaranteeing that they wouldn't enforce the law even though I was challenging it, which is not allowed.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:25.279
So after up until February of yeah, it was a little bit over a year.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:38.320
Oh, uh February of 2025, I was granted what's called a temporary injunction, uh, which basically says they can't use the tarot reading law against me as long as I am challenging it in court.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:45.840
So basically it has given me some relief that they're not just gonna come like knocking on my door if I'm in the middle of reading with a client.
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:51.440
Um, which is like, again, a really big step because the fact that the court even agreed to that is crazy.
00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:59.600
But because of all of this, because it's now challenging a lot on the PA books, my case has now been escalated up to a state level.
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:06.399
So basically it's like Beck versus the state of Pennsylvania, which I'm like, hello, what do you mean?
00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:07.679
Um, and the idea.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:10.559
Yeah, I'm like, hello?
00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:12.480
Is this thing on?
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:13.759
What's happening?
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:27.600
Um so basically the idea being like, hey, this law violates the First Amendment in a lot of ways, but a couple other amendments to the US Constitution and should have never been put into the PA legal codes, like ever.
00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.759
Like it should never have been able to pass.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:37.679
So because of that, the DA for Pennsylvania has also gotten involved directly with my case because they have to.
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:42.159
Um, so they've been trying to dismiss it for over a year.
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.600
And about two weeks ago, I finally got a call.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:53.440
The judge in my case um denied all of their um attempts to dismiss it and has said, no, this has to see a trial.
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.120
Like it has to see a hearing and it has to like be be ruled on.
00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:58.960
Like we're not just gonna let this lie.
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:13.599
So I know it seems like a very small victory, but I have a phone call with the court on July 22nd to set up a timeline of, hey, we're gonna enter discovery, and this is when this deadline is, and then this is when the hearing will be.
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:26.799
So it's incredibly um, it's incredibly encouraging that after almost three years of kind of filing a lot of paperwork, might I say, um, that there's actually some some tangible movement on this.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:37.440
There's also been, like in the meantime, there's been a bill that I worked with a senator on to, excuse me, a house representative, I should say, um, to be introduced to the House of Representatives.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:43.519
It's HV 1562, um, which abolishes the tarot or the fortune-telling ban.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:53.759
So it um was introduced and passed the Judiciary Committee, um, a vote of 13 to 12, which I thought was incredibly, you know, it was close, right?
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.559
But incredibly mystical, that number 13.
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:05.519
And it is now, it's tabled for now, but there is a chance that it could be voted on during this House session if enough people ask for them to.
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:16.400
Now, whether, yeah, whether or not it is before the court, like it either way, there is there are things in place or things that I've tried to get in place to get this law off the books.
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:23.359
It's just kind of like a waiting game as to who's going to act first, the court system or the legislation, which is kind of neat.
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:05.920
I know.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.559
It's it's been a crazy like three years of my life.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.240
So sorry to like trauma dump or like steamroll all of that.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:14.880
Yeah, yeah, I know.
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:25.200
Seriously, but like overall, kind of what has your experience been dealing with the court system?
00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:27.039
Like, how has that even been?
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:34.559
So I'm really lucky that like I have a good lawyer who like does all a lot of that for me, right?
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:41.359
But I also this is like not confirmed, but like I I like have a feeling.
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:55.200
I was trying to process divorce papers during all of this, and it kept getting denied for very stupid fucking reasons, to the point that like the lawyer that I had doing that was like, Did you piss off someone in the York County court system?
00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.319
And I'm like, Well, maybe like it was it was one of those things.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:11.519
So I'm not this is a legend, like whatever, but there are definitely like instances where I do feel like there is some stalling, like they don't want to deal with this.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:22.960
Every time there was a deadline for like a response from opposing counsel, whether it was from the borough or from the state, they would always wait till like the last day and then ask for an extension.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:24.079
Like, do you know what I mean?
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:37.519
So it's kind of like people don't want to deal with this or don't want to address it because either they think it's stupid and isn't worth the time, or are like of the belief that it should remain as it is.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:39.839
Definitely it's frustrating.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.519
Maybe it's because I have a Taurus moon and a lot of Virgo placements.
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.000
I don't know.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:50.240
I am so about malicious compliance where it's like, okay, man, I will fill out any form.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:56.160
I will fill out every single piece of paper that you put across my desk if it makes this happen.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.559
Tell me what to do, and I will exceed.
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:00.480
I'll I'll give it to you in triplicate.
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.440
I don't care.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:07.279
So to me, it's it has been frustrating, but that's kind of the court system side of it.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.640
The social side of it has been crazy in a good way.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:14.960
Like I really feel this kind of negative um event.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.960
Yeah, it it sucked.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:20.559
Like, yes, I got yelled at by two grown men, but like who hasn't?
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.440
Like, you know, like whatever, I'll go to my room, dad.
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:24.559
Like shit.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:37.119
I really, I feel like a lot of people and like surprisingly, people on either side of the aisle, like politically, have been like very supportive of the fight.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:43.279
Even people who are like, I don't really like what you're doing, and I don't really get it, and I don't care about it, but like you deserve to do it.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:44.240
Interesting.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:54.400
Yeah, and like it's been Yeah, it is, especially in Hanover, which is again like that very conservative kind of um very small town vibes.
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.079
I grew up outside of DC, so like moving here, I was like, whoa.
00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.519
But I do really think this.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:11.119
Negative event, the witchy community around here has been able to like alchemize into something very positive to change it from something oh undesirable, like lead, right?
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:12.640
Into something good like gold.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.160
So I that's kind of the thing that I keep keeping in the back of my mind.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:21.759
Well, that's what we wanted to ask too is how has this case affected your visibility and your business?
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:27.200
It's good to know that you have some supporters, but what does that look like concretely?
00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:28.960
It's so it's amazing.
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:36.880
Like I really like I feel like we almost put out like a bat signal where it was like, hello, are you kind of weird in the tri-state area?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.119
Come here and hang out with us.
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:40.960
And that's that's awesome.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:56.079
Um, it's it's very like humbling as well because like obviously everyone wants to have a successful shop, but I am consistently grateful for like the the sheer amount of people that I've I've met in the last two years alone is insane.
00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:05.200
And the opportunities that this has spawned for me, like I I just I hope that I never come off as like magnanimous, you know, raggadocious.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:09.200
Because it's like it is very, very humbling that I get to sit in these rooms.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.359
Like I got to go to the House of Representatives to talk to like lawmakers.
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.920
Like, what are we what uh me?
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:17.599
Dude, what are you talking about?
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.440
I'm just hanging out with my rocks.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:19.920
What?
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:36.160
So I I do think that um it has definitely it has, of course, very much boosted our visibility, but also I think really allowed the pagan community and like the witchy adjacent earth-based spirituality, whatever, to really blossom in and around York County.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:43.039
So it's like it's been really, really cool to see how that has has kind of ha come up a little bit in the last couple years.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:44.880
Yeah, that's so amazing.
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.000
It's also interesting too for from our perspective.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:55.119
I mean, Paulina has had her shots shut down because neighbors didn't want a quote unquote gypsy giving readings in town.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:02.000
And it's we it's interesting to hear the okay, so I feel like you are using your privil privilege for good.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:04.000
Like you are leveraging your privilege.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:04.319
Yeah.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:10.640
This is not the kind of response that generally Roma who experience the like fallout from these laws go through.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:17.440
And it's I like that you are taking the energy to be like, and we should change this law so it doesn't screw anything.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:30.079
I get that I look like this, and this is like very much something that people will like repost or like want to put on the news.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.119
The weird little goth girl, like in the you know what I mean?
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.720
Um, but that is also part of a deeper issue.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.039
And I think, and this is like maybe like part of why I'm so serious about it.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:48.000
I'm half Puerto Rican, so like I saw my dad, people would be fucking racist to him in public.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.920
Like, people would think like he was trying to like kidnap me and stuff.
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:53.599
What are we talking about?
00:24:53.839 --> 00:25:03.119
So I do kind of have that sense of like, okay, wait, I can do things for people in spaces that maybe others would not be able to.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:14.640
And like, I do really think that the history of this law, specifically targeting the Roma population, and again, other marginalized folks too, sure, but like specifically that.
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:31.839
Because if you look at when this law, sorry, not to be on a history ramp, but when you look at when this law went into place, 1861, about 10 years prior to that, in the 1850s, there was a huge movement of immigration of Roma people into Pennsylvania.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:36.559
And they were really uh like there was an influx into communities like Lancaster and York.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:49.519
And because in that community, tarot reading and card reading was a way to like exchange money, and it was kind of almost done like via cash or like via like exchanging of goods and services, the government couldn't tax it.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:54.799
So if you look at where it is in the Pennsylvania law book, it's between horse racing and gambling.
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.720
It's seen as something like, yeah, it's not even like a religious thing.
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:06.960
It's almost seen as like this, I don't know, like a vagabond kind of law, or like like this this is something that is like not good for our community.
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:17.599
So it is really rooted in that racism because when you look at the practices that they outline in that law, they talk about like necromancy and love spells and powders and poet.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.599
Like that's all folk magic.
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.960
Like that's all stuff that was being done.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:33.039
Yes, by 100% by Roma people, but also in Hanover, Pennsylvania pow hours, like the Pennsylvania Dutch, were actually prosecuted under a lot of these same laws too.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:41.279
So they would they were like faith healers, and yes, they used the Bible, but it was still and Hanover actually is like a huge hub for that.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.599
So I've been able to learn about that as uh along with some of the other traditions.
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:46.880
So it's it's very cool.
00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:51.839
I'm sorry to go again on a little rant about history, but um again, part of why you're here.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:52.559
Yeah, right.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:53.359
No, I know.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:10.799
And we are so lucky to be here with a special guest to offer you a bonus history segment for those of you who wanted to know more about the historical context of the anti-fortune-telling laws in PA.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:12.799
We have Rissa Miller with us.
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.480
Would you like uh mind introducing yourself, who you are, and what you do to the audience?
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.519
Absolutely.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:18.960
My name is Rissa.
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.599
I am a public historian and folklorist.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:28.000
I specialize in sort of dark and esoteric pockets of history and in the mid-Atlantic region.
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:33.039
So I have been researching this for two reasons for a very long time.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:40.160
First, um, I do a lot of talks about the history of things that are associated with witchcraft.
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:47.039
And I wouldn't necessarily fortune telling and witchcraft are the same, they are not, but a lot of people put them under the same umbrella.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:51.519
And also because I myself have a Roma heritage.
00:27:51.759 --> 00:28:01.839
And it is of great interest to me to learn more about it since um all of the full-blooded Roma members of my family died as of COVID in 2021.
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:08.319
So, that said, I am excited to share with you um this little tiny swath of my research.
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:16.480
So the Pennsylvania law isn't just a strange relic that appeared out of nowhere, it grew out of a much older legal tradition.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:24.160
Uh, for centuries, British laws had associated fortune telling with so-called Egyptians, the people we now recognize as Roma.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.799
And they also associated them with vagrancy and public disorder.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.319
Those ideas filtered into America.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:38.799
So, taking a long view, Roma immigration to the United States did not happen in a single wave.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:43.200
There were Roma people here as early as during the colonial era.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:53.039
But um, we're going to talk more about the big first wave that came in the mid-19th century, especially from England, Wales, and Scotland.
00:28:53.200 --> 00:29:03.440
And they were coming for the same reasons many other immigrants did: economic opportunity, social mobility, and escape from discrimination and economic disruption in Europe.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.079
There was a lot of discrimination in England.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:09.279
Sometimes people would be arrested just for being Roma.
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.319
Like that was their whole entire offense in England.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:21.519
So this first larger wave came, and it matters to Pennsylvania because it overlaps a period when the state passed its anti-fortune-telling law.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:29.039
And uh Roma families were moving through, they were settling all across the mid-Atlantic, um, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Maryland.
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.200
Pennsylvania made a lot of sense though.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:32.160
It was big.
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:38.319
There were cities and rural communities, and its infrastructure was growing really, really rapidly.
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:49.519
Roads, railroads, industry, and there were places where Roma people, who were often tradespeople and skilled, could survive and make a living.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.599
So in Pennsylvania, the Roma were not simply fortune tellers.
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:57.119
Um, I really love throwing water on this idea right out of the gate.
00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:12.559
Um, many worked as horse trainers, livestock dealers, basket makers, broommakers, metal workers, musicians, animal handlers, and there were a lot of Roma people who were very skilled at all sorts of repair as well as industry kinds of work.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:22.000
Fortune telling was one occupation among many, but if you were to look into American popular culture, you would think that was all that Roma people did.
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.400
Americans became fixated on it.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:33.519
The idea of the Roma fortune teller, especially the female Roma fortune teller, became a huge almost stereotype or cliche.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.759
Like there were postcards of her, and she always looks the same.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:46.880
It's just fascinating how the public becomes fixated on this complex ethnic community and just sort of shrinks it down to this one idea.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:55.599
So in 1852, we see the first two women in Philadelphia prosecuted for fortune telling.
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.880
They are Mary Ann Clinton and Susan Spearing.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:02.079
The charges are fortune telling and conjuration.
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:07.920
Now, the newspapers in Philadelphia at the time flay the government for this.
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.160
They make it into what sounds like a joke.
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:16.559
And um, the idea behind it though, even though a lot of more educated people were like, this is ridiculous.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:18.559
Like, why are we, why are we doing this?
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:25.359
It tells us that Pennsylvania has stopped treating these practices as a threat to the soul, and now they're treating them as fraud.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.440
So at the same time, uh fascinating twist, another movement is taking off.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:32.799
It is spiritualism.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.880
Now, in the spiritual practice, women are professional mediums.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:46.559
They're leading seances and publicly lecturing about spirits and ghosts, and they're earning money for the first time in a big way in America.
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:54.480
Now, to understand Pennsylvania's anti-fortune-telling law, it helps to remember what else was happening in the state and the nation in 1861.
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.319
This was not a quiet time in American history.
00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.000
Seven Southern states had already seceded from the Union at that moment.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:07.920
Um, Abraham Lincoln had only been in office for a little over a month, and the country was bracing for war.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:15.680
No one knew exactly what would happen next, but there was an unmistakable sense that the nation was at a huge crossroads.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:29.759
Pennsylvania itself was changing rapidly, both because, like I said, immigration was reshaping the state's population, and Philadelphia had become one of the nation's largest port cities, like Philadelphia and Pennsylvania.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.480
Well, they were together, but they weren't.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.279
So it is a wild time.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:42.000
Harrisburg is already the state capital since 1812, and there's a lot of industry transportation around there as well.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:50.799
So it is in this atmosphere that Pennsylvania approves the Act for Suppression of Fortune Telling on April 8th, 1861.
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:57.759
Four days later, the Confederate forces fire on Fort Sumner in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina, and the Civil War begins.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.559
Now, these two things, to be clear, are not related, but they do affect each other.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.279
Well, in Pennsylvania anyway, they affect each other.
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:09.599
So immediately President Lincoln puts out the call to support the war effort.
00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:19.279
So we have this few-day-old law, and now suddenly the Commonwealth is much more worried about preparing soldiers and manufacturing weapons and supporting the war effort.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:24.480
And these things that were just a moment ago a concern, nobody cares.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.319
You know, suddenly nobody cares.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:32.480
Like I said, they're not necessarily related to each other, but it is really important to put them into perspective.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:56.559
So going forward, this kind of is noteworthy because it captures what society was grappling with, like this rapid social change that society was grappling with, the questions of public trust, the questions of other, because Roma people were definitely other to colonists who had been here, you know, over a hundred years already and whose families had been established.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:06.720
Now, this is not necessarily about tarot cards, but um it is a window into the mind of the 19th century Pennsylvanian.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:14.079
There are ideas about fraud, about who can be trusted to speak with authority, and how marginalized groups are going to be treated.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:18.960
What is interesting is um this law is asking a broader question.
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:24.239
In my mind, it is about who gets to define what counts as legitimate work.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.800
Who gets to define that?
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:33.760
What so spiritualism is legitimate work, but fortune telling isn't, like, because that's a real gray area.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:42.239
I thought it was interesting to note as well that this law was passed only a few years after the slavery of Roma people was abolished in Romania.
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:51.440
And um, again, not related, but noteworthy to say, and also noteworthy that Pennsylvania wasn't alone in its anti-fortune-telling laws.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.800
At that time in history, many states had them.
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:58.400
And um, a lot of times they were tied up with other things.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:03.440
So this one is tied up not just with fortune telling, but love spells and treasure maps.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:11.360
But um, say in New Jersey, they had a law that also included uh wandering persons, confidence tricksters, and gamblers.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.679
What is also interesting is that that's so racialized.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:18.159
Sorry.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:26.079
Yeah, it's all about being what in that language at the time was disorderly persons.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.559
Disorderly persons.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:37.599
So um Pennsylvania did also uh go through its law books in both 1939 and 1972, and they left this law on the books.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.400
So that's like a quick, rapid history of all of this.
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.840
I'm just I could honestly listen to you talk all day.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.320
We have to have you back on for your own full episode.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:49.760
This was riveting.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.840
I oh, I'm so glad you liked it.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.840
Paulina, do you have any questions?
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:00.000
No, I feel like this was really amazing, informative, and everybody needs to know this.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.320
There's still laws here, like we have to place like for entertainment only, blah, blah, blah.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.119
Like what the hell Well, this isn't the only state with this law.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:11.599
I I actually really want to write a book called American Fortune Teller about this these laws.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:17.280
And I've been researching, I've been researching them for years, but um, it's not an easy thing to pick at.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:18.719
I have to keep picking at it.
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:24.000
Um but uh What is making it difficult to uh pursue that out of curiosity?
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:38.719
Well, because not all the laws are statewide, some of them are countywide, some of them are only in certain cities, and um, so say Virginia doesn't have a fortune teller's law per se, but some towns in Virginia do, like Norfolk just repealed theirs.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.519
So it's kind of like it's so specific.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:48.880
And to try to do American fortune telling, it's also not the feelings about the it aren't the same on the east and west coast.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:56.079
So it's kind of like in my fantasies, I get to interview fortune tellers from every state.
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.840
And that will take a lot of time and probably money.
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.719
But um, all of that said, it is fascinating.
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:07.920
So, like in Rhode Island, for example, palmistry is still illegal, but you can read tarot cards.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:09.440
Why?
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:10.800
Why?
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:11.840
You know?
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:19.360
So many just digging back into the history of that and the complexities, like, why was palm reading taboo?
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:20.639
Yeah.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.920
Yeah, and that's something that I associate so much with Roma.
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.920
Obviously, we're not the only group that does that, but you know, yeah, that's so fascinating.
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.119
I know that in Tennessee, um, reading cowrie shells is illegal.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.199
And I'm like, well, that is very anti-black.
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:38.719
Okay, like we're seeing it is well, that's probably like a who do food uh who do voodoo kind of fear.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.039
Like people are scared of conjure women there, I guess.
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:42.079
Or they were.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:42.800
Yeah.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:43.840
Oh my gosh.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.119
This was such a joy to be able to speak with you.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.880
Thank you so much for sharing this research.
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:50.159
I'd be happy to come back.
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.119
We want that.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.400
Whatever you want to talk about, we're down.
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:59.119
Um, and you also, is there anything that you wanted to share with the audience about how to find you, support your work?
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.360
Because I know um you do lots of interesting things.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.199
You're a very interesting multi-hyphenate.
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:04.159
I do.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:07.599
So I I do carry on my family legacy of fortune telling.
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:13.840
I learned to read tarot cards as an eight-year-old girl at my grandmother's um uh uh table.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:18.079
And that was even through the Satanic Panic, which is a whole other ball of wax.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:21.920
Talk about another time the Roma were, you know, not thought of well.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.760
And um I am still a tarot card reader.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:33.039
I am a tea leaf reader, and that is a thing I taught myself to rebel against my family's tarot card tradition.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:35.280
Oh, the things we do.
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:41.360
Um, I am also a ghost tour guide and a historian, and I love to give little lectures.
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.760
I I get excited about everything.
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:45.679
I love learning and sharing.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.199
If anybody wants to find me, I am at tsmoke.com.
00:38:52.400 --> 00:39:00.719
It's just I've learned so much, not only about Pennsylvania, but about the the roots of this law and like how it goes back.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:09.280
Like the language that they use dates back to like they basically just copy and pasted stuff from like King James, and he's the worst dude.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:16.239
So yeah, it's definitely something that I think a lot of people are like not really educated about.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:27.519
Because it isn't like again, it's kind of weird, it's kind of off the wall, but I think it is really important, especially if if you're learning tarot, if you're learning divination, but especially if you're making money off of it.
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:34.719
And if this is your way of life, you need to understand one, one, that it's a privilege that we get to do this at all, right?
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:43.360
Um, but also like what has happened in the past that like has allowed us to get to like where we are more able to.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:52.719
I had another woman, I'm so sorry, like another story, but I had uh a woman who is, I don't want to age her, so I feel bad, but she's probably in her 70s, right?
00:39:52.960 --> 00:40:05.199
And she in the 1970s, um, she brought me actually a uh a Roma flag, the blue and green and like with the red wheel that was entrusted to her in the 70s by like Roma activists.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.039
And she was like, Do you understand what this is?
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.280
And I was like, Artemis, of course I do.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:20.079
So it I got to sit with her and talk with her, and she told me a lot of stories about how important this fight really is, while I was already in it for the for the long haul.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:30.480
It just really solidifies over and over how important this is, not only to witches now, but maybe like, you know, generationally back and generationally forward too.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:22.719
It does feel that way, like in the spiritual realm, like what's going on up there, including like what's going on here, like this great kind of mass change.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.280
And I just want to say definitely thank you.
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.000
Because, yeah, thank you for talking about this.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:31.840
Thank you for talking about Roma.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.039
I have experienced, yeah, like so much racism.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:36.400
I have left stores.
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:45.199
People have said, like, we owners, you know, of course, like owners are like, I don't want gypsies running around here, and which is so ridiculous.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:58.800
And and we have had, we got we got a letter last week because we like put a pride flag out, and someone sent us literally like a cut and paste, like a serial killer letter that was like, keep your sexuality to yourself.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:16.320
Like, we get like little things like that, but I I think uh yeah, I and I'm so sorry that you've not had the same positivity that I have had, because I think everyone really deserves to have the uplifting of their community in the ways that Hanover has uplifted me.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:22.960
So I hope that, and I'm sending all of the positive vibes, you know, uh that that happens because you deserve it, dude.
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:27.519
When you have a brick and mortar, and I think this is something that is like really important as well.
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:36.880
When you have a brick and mortar space and you invite people in, you're creating a sacred, like a sanctuary and a sacred place for people to experience spirituality.
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:59.360
And so much of spirituality is online these days that I really think that the community, like what it's almost like we we've reached kind of like a point where we need to come back to like the in-person, the the actual grounded, hey, let's sit down together and like meditate, share a meal, and just talk like human beings, actually, instead of whatever behind the screen.
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:06.639
So yeah, I think that I really hope that I hope that your community continues to grow and that you're uplifted because you deserve it.
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:07.440
You do.
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:16.960
I actually wanted to ask you, how has this experience affected your relationship to a womany allyship?
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.880
So I really um I first of all, I hope to do so properly.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.239
Like I'm always kind of like, I hope it's okay that I'm talking about this.
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:32.159
Um, because I never want to like outshine or outvoice actual Roma voices, right?
00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:34.960
Because that's it's not me and that's not my place.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.800
Um, but we do, we sell your guys' books, um, or book, I should say.
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:45.920
And I do really um in all of my um I do have some presentations about the history of tarot.
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:55.199
So I touch on the origins and like some of the the practices that are specific not specifically Romani, but like that you guys talk about a little bit in your book, talk about the history.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:59.760
Um, and I make sure that people who come in, you know, saying perhaps the G slur.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.760
are educated on that and like, hey, we don't do that anymore, actually.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.960
Like this is not something that is okay here.
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.239
You know, do with this information what you will.
00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:25.360
So I do really, I hope that um I hope that these actions can like continue to shine through and that it kind of continues to ripple throughout the, throughout the community, because it is something that people don't really know about.
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:28.559
Like a lot of people are like, are you talking about people from Romania?
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.079
And I'm like, uh I mean like there might be Romani people in Romania.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.719
I don't probably but like I not specifically like that is very different.
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:54.800
So I I, you know, I I do really there is that fine line of elevating Romani voices and really elevating the issues as best I can while also using like you said like my privilege to be like hey actually knock knock hello I let me into the courthouse now.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:05.599
Give me the keys actually because I know you will yeah I mean I think that's the thing right there is just continuing to educate people and elevate Romani voices.
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.440
And you know there are um lots of wonderful Romani readers and activists out there.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:26.079
And I think what we try to do in Romani san is create an easy to find list for people who if they want to figure out like which Romani nonprofit do they want to donate to or can they read about the history of slavery in Romania of Roma people.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.280
Like we try to make it really easy to find that stuff.
00:45:29.360 --> 00:46:24.880
And so we appreciate you shouting out Roma directly because exactly you don't want to pretend to be an expert or like speak to over people but rather just be like and here look yeah dude I I really and that's also something that I hope to like kind of not instill in other people but maybe model is you don't need to be an expert or like divinely chosen in like there's no there's no possible way dude for everyone to know everything all the time right um again I would probably dress better and not have the anxiety that I have but I I really hope that people especially in the community who do have that ancestry as well because again there are a lot of people who move to this area so of course you do right I hope that they feel more able to connect with and get in touch with the wider Romani community because it is I know it's there.
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:27.760
And again I like link a lot of you guys' stuff.
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.960
Sorry if that's like you know we really appreciate it social.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:47:00.559
But it is a really fabulous aggregate I feel like it is a perfect resource site where people are wanting to learn more about it or learn more more about their own heritage if it's something that they have been disconnected from because I mean any diasporic culture like Puerto Rico let's talk about the Puerto Rican diaspora you know like I feel that dude and that's why I think it is so important to give people that opportunity to reconnect without feeling like hey I'm the one to reconnect you.
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:03.679
It's like no here's a book though and you could probably talk to them.
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:05.519
So no we appreciate it.
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:25.840
I mean honestly like I think this is a good example because sometimes people want to be allies but they don't know how it's literally including Roma in your spaces and your platform and like rather than talking about the things that we talk about it's referring to stocking our book or our materials or you know all of that stuff is a really good example of allyship.
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:33.679
And I mean you're definitely fighting this case for yourself but ever since Paulina and I found it we're like also like and you're fighting for us.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:46.400
No a hundred percent yes I and I I really hope that that shines through like most because like honestly dude I don't give a shit about me like whatever like the police can come in here and do whatever I'm sure honestly you should fight for yourself.
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:47.679
There's nothing wrong with that.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:54.000
There is a little bit of like I do kind of want to stick it to the man absolutely but I don't want you to go to jail.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:00.239
Right right totally yeah it seems like a little uncomfy but I also I don't like bullies.
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:17.920
I would hate for this to have to happen to anybody else not to be like most people aren't as as much of an asshole as me but like honestly it does take a lot to stand up in the face of of someone coming in telling you we're going to arrest you for witchcraft or tarot or whatever.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:28.320
And I think if I can prevent people from having to go through that, I would like to at least try whether or not I'm successful hoping to be successful.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:39.199
Speaking of speaking of could you share with us what is the outcome you're hoping for and how can people support you in being successful.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:54.079
Perfect so um the outcome that we're hoping for is straight abolishing the law like I we do not want any like nothing like no witch's license like no one should there should not be any barrier of entry for diviners.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:55.280
You shouldn't have to deal with that.
00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:59.039
So it is it's an unconstitutional law get it off the books.
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:15.679
Yes daddy yes that is it that is that's the vibe and so like that's what that's like the outcome that I'm hoping for um and and I really I I really believe it's possible to because it it's our argument is very sound in my opinion.
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:23.039
In terms of like helping me honestly man my lawyer is doing me the beautiful gift of working pro bono for me.
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:30.400
So um because it's like a a case challenging the state um the state takes care of court fees basically which is cool.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:58.159
So in terms of help like honestly like reposting videos and like sharing the word is honestly the best because my goal is to educate people that this is a problem right and that there might be laws like this in your not necessarily in your state but your locality for example it's legal to read tarot cards in the state of Maryland but not in Baltimore City right so you can't yeah um which is the place I used to live and I uh was definitely illegal cards there.
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:06.159
Whoops uh no but yeah it is definitely a it's something that still today there's little echoes of it in our space.
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:21.199
So if if anything else I just want people to like know about it so that way they can be aware and protect themselves so this doesn't happen to anybody else you know I don't even know if this is like off topic or on topic.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:52:45.199
I don't even know but I just have the urge to say it what are the odds that the police chief read a post remembered the law walked in there this is how I know for sure this was not odds don't fucking exist like that's I know coincidences are not fucking real yeah it's real interesting you know like I I I really I don't know and honestly if that is the pure coincidence and chance honestly it would track because that's my luck like you know what I mean like I yeah like there definitely I think already was some like kind of wariness and we were not the only store in town like I was like the fifth one in town like it was not like new so yeah it's definitely an interesting story and I'll be really curious to see what comes out in discovery and like what what happens when it's like so how did you come across this who told you what prompted this and why didn't you file an official report but have you heard from the police officers like himself yeah like what is he saying himself he so he actually um no longer is the police chief he retired last year um yeah like one year shy of 30 years or something like that and I was like good um but he through his lawyer has stayed silent on all of this they did make a post on Facebook that is like their most famous whatever like most viral post they commented on the incident was like this individual is blowing it out of proportion or like whatever like yeah it was really crazy to have the literal beef just like nothing less literally yeah dude I Hanover is a very safe place to live don't get me wrong like there's not a whole lot that happens here so like maybe I you know maybe I am the worst thing in town but I highly doubt it hide your wife hide your kids for real I got my cards like watch out you know oh wow yeah I mean it's amazing because it's I think you have done a really good job of turning terrifying challenge into an opportunity for positive change.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:53.599
It kind of reminds me of the Wheel of Fortune card where it's sometimes things that seem terrible actually it's an opportunity for you to do something big.
00:52:53.920 --> 00:53:14.079
Yeah for sure and I really well again regardless of the outcome I really just hope that this helps people stay safe from the powers that be, you know, um because as the political climate shifts it has become more and more relevant I think especially since 2023 and beyond.
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:30.719
Yeah yeah absolutely well we so appreciate you uh taking this time with us and chatting with us and we wish you luck and hope that you are successful and anyone who wants to support you where can they follow you to repost and uh cheer you on.
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:32.320
Yes, thank you guys so much.
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:44.400
Um so you can find me over on TikTok and Instagram under the stitching witch and then the uh over on Instagram the shop is just the serpent's key with underscores between the words and I am trying to keep everybody updated.
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:57.679
I'm doing a tarot poll every day until I get my um my my trial date which I think is gonna be fun and then of course I'm gonna be keeping everyone updated as much as I can with all of the information that I have as soon as I get it.
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:20.159
So um yeah absolutely TikTok Instagram are like the main ones we're over on Facebook if you want to dip your foot into that pool but I would not blame you for not and then I don't know I'm a scourge on the internet I'm sure I'll pop up other places too so amazing oh my gosh well we really appreciate your time and let us know if there's anything else we can do to boost this message.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.039
Thank you thank you so much for having me I so appreciate it.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:55:54.719
Thank you so so much we don't again what she said or what what they said sorry oh my goodness I love it I love it so listeners we actually forgot to announce some very important and pertinent news about Paulina's new shop location because we got so excited and caught up in Beck's news but Paulina why don't you tell us about your shop so I just opened a shop in San Diego in Pacific Beach and it's basically a little spiritual community space where people can get readings and coaching and just explore all of things that are create creative you know so people can also come here and like maybe drink a little tea do a little paint it's like as a little art studio as well as a little apothecary so I have a ton of skincare products and they're natural things that you find in your house like laundry soap and dish soap bars, plastic free deodorants, toothpaste like our regular daily use items so we can help kind of promote more natural plastic free um chemical free ways of living and yeah it's it's a really nice space for people that are looking for readings.
00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:21.519
I'm also going to be doing some events so book readings as well as sound bowl meditations and group meditations so if you guys are in the area check it out and I'm also still here online for readings as well so my schedule is a lot more open and you can book with me on my website romaniholistic.com my schedule is all on Call and Lee so I'd appreciate if you guys would check it out.
00:56:21.840 --> 00:57:00.480
Absolutely it is so important to support brick and mortar stores especially your store is called RomaniHolistic like it's visible so um San Diego community you know if you're coming through for tourism reasons or adventures please support in person and of course always book online too I don't have a storefront but you can always book with me at jasminavontila.com if you want a tarot palm or tea leaf reading but this is a really big deal that you have your shop open here and we would love it if you followed RomaniHolistic on Instagram and shared anything that you're sharing there.
00:57:00.639 --> 00:58:04.400
Of course you can always support us on the regular channels too but we would love RomaniHolistic to have more visibility for listening to Romanistan Podcast you can find us on Instagram TikTok and Facebook at Romanasan Podcast and on Twitter at Romanasanpod to support us join our Patreon for extra content or just donate to our coffee fundraiser ko-fi.com backslash romanasan and please rate review and subscribe it helps people find our show it helps us so much you can follow Jez on Instagram at jezmina.vontila and paulina at romani holistic you can get our book Secrets of Romani Fortune Telling online or wherever books are sold.
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:30.719
Visit romanistempodcast dot com for events educational resources and more email us at romanistanpodcast at gmail.com for inquiries Romanistan is hosted by Jasmina von Tila and Paulina Stevens conceived of by Paulina Stevens edited by Victor Pachitz with music by Victor Pachitz and artwork by Elijah Bardo
