Revving Up - Ep 25: Prison Ministry with Bryan Bootka

RevvingUp_David: ⁓ And welcome back to Reving Up with David Ross. I'm your host David and glad to be back with you again. There is a week delay in my release cycle with this one, but ⁓ it is for a good reason because I actually have somebody in studio with me today. I've got a repeat guest. Wow, I've been around long enough to have repeat guests. I don't know what to think about. that. So anyway, we're going to be having a great conversation once again today with Brian Bootka who has been on the show before and I've been kind of simulcast, guess it gives a call it simulcast, whatever that we did together here. It's been a while. It's been a minute brother. So it's good to have you back with us. So welcome back, Brian. Thanks. I appreciate getting to pass the test to come back again. Right now that bar is remarkably low. that way can make all the mistakes early on. Yeah, yeah, we'll get that done. Yeah, I'm making sure. Yeah, I am recording. Having to do the whole coordination and multiple cameras and all that great stuff like that was something I have not had to do here in a while. So anyway, last time you were on, you had just started. this foray into... it wasn't really the topic we were... I forget the exact topic we talked about, but you had just started doing prison ministry and I remember you got very... I could tell you were moved because there towards the end you were talking about there but for the grace of God that could have been me. And it has gotten ahold of you. I talked to Steve Miller that runs it out of your church and caught him at a minister's breakfast here a month or so back. And, and he said, man, he's, he's volunteering, he's recruiting. said he is all in. So I wanted to have you back and I wanted to talk about that. It seems to have become a, a passion with you and I can see the transformation that it's making in your life. And I honor you for that. to lean into something when it resonated. so ⁓ talk to us about prison ministry and why, what is it about it? I mean, what is it about it that has become so compelling to you? And what can we as the body and as fellow believers take from what you're doing? You know, it's probably most ministers that talk about prison ministry of pastors who encourage the congregation, Brother Shaw has, they would say, know, you to prison ministry, it'll change your life. And it's, it's one of those where it's you hear that it doesn't you're like, hmm, because you're going to get stabbed. And you're gonna, you're gonna have that limp or whatever Paul had the thorn in the field, the thorn in your side, you know, because something traumatic is gonna happen, something transformational will happen, but usually not assault right? That fear is usually what keeps us from going, but that it is transformational. And I think that's why focusing on, today we would call them the marginalized, right? Homeless, hungry, incarcerated, and Jesus was very passionate about that. so much so that It seems that he says that when you do it to the least of these, you've done it to me. And it was just talking about the basics of feeding, clothing, and visiting. Now, you mentioned Steve Miller and "Reaching out in love" is the name of the prison ministry. And they're generally bringing the gospel. But Jesus said, you're visiting me, right? And that engagement in... What's interesting is that it really is transformational. I had and had really no idea what it would be like you see pictures, you know, on social media, someone talks about it. And it is transformational that you're going into a place where no one wants to be now they generally have earned their position there in a sense, they've done something that's got them locked up. And you know, they don't want to be on the campus, right? But you get with these men who, and there's women's prisons, you get with these men who are, you'll see them really make a change, God's moving in their life. And they're so grateful for people from the outside. Okay, and just, you go with an intent to help in some way, right? I'm not a preacher, not a pastor, I'm just a guy. you know, just whatever you think of is this, you my calling is not to lead a congregation, right? So you think, you go just to assist whoever's leading and you find these men who you watch their lives, they'll come up and ask for prayer and they'll tell you what they're praying for. And so you walk away just impacted by so many things from their humility or seeing the change or... ⁓ seeing their humanity. what kind of things do they ask to pray for? Are they profound? Are they deep? Are they trivial? Or are they all? You know, we'll do prayer requests sometimes like in a card. Yeah. On occasion they will be silly. Right. Probably like if you pass those cards out with a bunch of the youth and there's some teenage boys writing something goofy, you know, but 99 % of the time They're very serious. I've had a wide range of men come up and ask for prayer from some very confessional. Brother Ross when the guys came up one time. It's like hey, will you pray for me because my language is slipping It's so transparent imagine. I've never went to the altar and said hey, you know you walk up or small say hey Can you pray for me? I'm being a terrible husband. Yeah, you know, know, I'm not talking to my wife, right? But this guy was like, yeah, you know, I'd stub my toe and I'm using the profanity I really want to be better. I like how transparent Imagine if we start going to our altar and someone comes up to we're like, hey, pray for this. And so something that was sincere, but we might think that small, all the way to, and that's something any of us can understand, right? We want to work on our language. To things that that I can't fully comprehend, like a man came up and said, hey, pray for my wife. She's struggling with drug addiction. Right? He goes, you he said, I'm not worried about our son because he's with family. He goes, but I'm in here. He couldn't even go help her because he's locked up. He goes, I'm really worried because she struggles with things like Xanax and these antidepressants. I'm so worried that she's going to pick something up off the street and it's going to have fentanyl and she's going to die. He was worried that she's using the drugs anyways to medicate. That was sincerely concerned like, yeah, she could die because she just got out of rehab. She's still struggling. I'm locked up. And so we prayed and been checking in with this guy. But that's a real deep need. And the. mentality of course you're dealing with men you know that that sense of responsibility and duty that is innate in men it is being washed out by our society unfortunately but it's still there and so my duty is to provide and protect my family And because of choices I've made, I cannot do that anymore. So that feeling of helplessness has to weigh on that guy. Yeah, so much. And right. Because if one of our family, if our if our spouse was struggling or a son or a daughter or a family member, we could at least you could go physically to them. Right. He cannot. Right. And so there's this level of need, potential desperation. You know, we can think, well, we're in the West. we have most of our needs met, well, here's someone who cannot physically go do the things that you and I might naturally that that might be part of the prescription, so to speak, right, because someone who's struggling, we need to physically be there. And so you have all of those two, you know, prayer requests for marriage, know, parole coming up, you know, things of that nature. But yeah, they're generally quite deep. And you will see men who you can see the Lord. I've tried to go to places that are as close relatively speaking to home as possible so I can build a relationship and you'll all watch the Lord. These men's discipleship grow in like any congregation. We'll go to San Sabbath tonight. The San Sabbath unit is in San Sabbath, Texas, preaching out love is there on the first and third Saturdays of each month. And so I've been going pretty consistent for a little more than a year. And so I've watched men in their conversion experience and grow in the Lord. ⁓ One guy in particular, a big guy, met him a couple weeks after he got baptized. And it was new. And he was, you he'd said, Hey, you know, this is my name and I'm in a gang, I used to be in a gang like this. He was processing his new life, right? And then saw him, you the next service, and asked what I was doing, he's like, great. I'm like, how are you really doing? He's like, well, I'm struggling, because, and this was a big guy, big, even the little bit of fat he had was all, it was hard. Like, he's just, you know, a guy that can handle business, right? And with some humility, goes, well, I didn't say this last time, but I'm kind of important, and he goes, but at lunch, These guys, the guys would come up to me at lunch and want me to solve their problems, but I don't do that anymore. And he was struggling because they, he was so new in his conversion. And it's a reasonable thing. Is this prison conversion? Is this legit? He was so frustrated because the guards didn't believe, he like, I stay in my byway. I don't know if he said it, I said a bunch of profanity or whatever. I was like, you know, the Christian walk is hard. Oh yeah. At first I was I'll pray for you. I sort of do that thing like I'll pray for you later. Like, no, let's pray now. Let's not make this this cliche. And we prayed and, you know, I encouraged him in the sense of, hey, when you continue walking out your faith and you'll make mistakes, just get back up. I said, as you walk out your faith, you'll be a testimony not only to your fellow inmates, but to the guard. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Right. It can be so powerful. And it wasn't long after that. We had a baptismal service and actually one of the guards came in on their day off to be baptized with the inmates. And so you'll watch that, and I've watched this particular guy grow in his faith. There's a field chaplain who's an inmate, and JJ is his name. He has a real heart for discipleship. And I've watched this other inmate, and JJ's discipled many of these guys, and they're, part of a group, and watching them grow in their faith. So it's probably like in that sense, any congregation where whether you are a leader or you're the pastor and you're watching closely, you're watching people's faith grow, their discipleship grow, and probably like any congregation there's going to be people who really don't participate or just kind of there because they have to be so to speak, but it's been truly a unique experience to watch God work in that place. Well, I'm thinking of the, I forget the name of the missionary that went to the somewhere in Hawaii, that area of the world, some of the island nations. I think was leprosy or something was affecting them and he chose to go and stay with them knowing he would probably eventually contract the disease. But he was so passionate about doing what Jesus said. This is my calling. I am called to these people. And he ended up dying of that. I think it was leprosy or that disease on that island because of his commitment to those people. Mother Teresa going into the streets of Calcutta and among those that had ⁓ And, it it humbles me and it and it you know, I'm ⁓ God's going to compare me on that day, but I I'm going to compare myself, ⁓ you it's like. what did I do in relationship to my walk and my gifts and my callings and my blessings versus what these people did with what God gave to them? And so it's humbling and sobering to think about those things like that. Like that chaplain, you know, if he ever comes up for parole, it would be, I'm not saying he will, but wouldn't it be remarkable? says, no, I choose to stay. Or I will be here every day, even though I can freely come and go. I am going to be back regularly because, know, now I've got this connection and this heartbeat for these people. It's ⁓ to that point, there's the field chaplain in particular, I'd ask him a number of times. What happens when you leave? like, I want to go where the Lord sends me. And he seems pretty sincere in that as. And then I talked to him not long ago, I was like, okay, how's what's parole look like as well? got things that set off, there's always there's the lingo, right? So he, he'd come up for parole. And I think it's another year or two before he's back. Now at that particular unit, JJ, it's shared that when he got there, I guess, a couple years ago, there was maybe one service a month, you know, some outside organization coming in. think there's now 13. In the last two years at that unit, more than 220 guys have been baptized in Jesus' name. Now men come in and out. There's less than 600 inmates there. Wow. So it's super powerful. And when he said that when he got the parole got pushed back, he's like, I think because I'm OK with it. And I'm paraphrasing it pretty much. says, I'm OK with it because I don't think God's done with what he has me doing here. My goodness like JJ I I'm a believer if I got put in prison if I did something to get in and I'm still trying to follow God I I don't know that I could say that right like because I'm a visitor I can say David I I feel blessed to go there twice when but I leave each day right JJ does not right and to think that Must be I appreciated he ministered. That's one of the the unique things of God's economy. It's backwards, right? I go there to serve and I get served Well, and again, I think of Paul and, you know, going before Agrippa, going before leaders and then ended up in a prison by himself with just a handful of people that came to see him, you know, and I wish you were as I am, save these chains, right? Right. And so he was even like, I'd rather not be a prisoner. But then, you know, he again in God's economy, he flipped it on his head. I am a prisoner of Christ. ⁓ Rome has me bound, but I am bound by Christ by what he called me to do and this mission with which he has set me on and to embrace it in that way. And, you know, humbling myself to the point that I have wrestled with some shortcomings and deficiencies and things in my life. And, you know, I'm in a very constrained situation right now with my oldest son. ⁓ I hate to go, don't want be too personal here, okay? But, you know, we're in the process of trying to get him services and eventually a place to go. And so we have to go through this process and I started it in September. I got my first meeting in January. had a follow up to that, did a couple of others. did a financial assessment thing here about three or four weeks ago. And then they came back and said, okay, we need to do an intake session with one of our psychiatrists to assess what he's called. It will be a year to two years before that assessment can be scheduled. And so we are. I just and I'm like, paid for I paid for an assessment in November. I've got letters from psychiatrists. Why are we doing this? And so I got very, very upset about it. And I still need to at least respond to that email. I had I drafted one. And I thought, okay, I'm going to sit on this and I'm glad I did because it was not, it would not have been a contributing to the good of the situation kind of thing. But in that God's talking to me. And I mentioned on one of my recent podcasts, I talked about surrender. When I surrender something to God, I don't get to tell him what to do with it. And he reminded me that David, you are surrendered to me and your life is mine. And I will do with it as I will, when I will, how I will. ⁓ I don't know if I'm fully there yet. I'm at more peace about it than I was in that moment. ⁓ I'm resting in, I turn 60 in January. I've got this, I I am headed to the final stage of this walk on earth. And I at peace about. ⁓ If nothing else works out in this world, I'm okay with that because there's an eternity before me that's going to more than make up for anything that I've got if I remain faithful and I walk with him. And so I think a prisoner gets that insight. Maybe in a way that I don't, I'm a prisoner of circumstance. They are physically reminded every day. They don't get to decide where they go. They don't get to decide where they what time they get up, what time they go to bed, what they eat, when they go to the bathroom. They have no no agency. Yeah. Right. Well, you you certainly share that with them. And I think that's our. Of our lifelong journey, right, as a. As a believer, a disciple, much control do we really have? we surrender? I mean, honestly, if we, again, we try to be the regular individualist Western mindset, you know, we can achieve anything and there's, there's some truth to that, but honestly, how much real agency and control do I have over my life? I can make the best investments in the world and have everything set up for retirement and that could be wiped out in a night in a day. My cars could blow up tomorrow. could be in a total. Yeah. My health could be broken in one visit to the doctor. I have. We are walking such a, a, a thin line of this veil of control that we think that we have. And then you get down to it. I can control my reactions to what happens to me. And I don't do that well. And then I have agency in some of the choices I make, but. A lot of those outcomes and consequences of those choices I'm promised things if I do them God's way that he will reward and bless and it will be okay, How much do I really control? ⁓ think that is our lifelong learning right that can I get to the place where? Not that I believe God will ⁓ this situation. Okay, ⁓ some situations aren't okay, right? Right. They're just bad. Yeah, but I will be okay in the sense that like you said At the end, it will be OK. Right. I might not actually get delivered from this storm. Yeah. Right. And so your experience really, I would say some of the exact same things and we probably all do that the inmates do. Right. I'm going to have some boundaries that are not of my initial choosing. Right. When we have kids and you have a child that's born with a situation that's beyond your control. Right. You wanted to have children. We want children, but we didn't. think that this was not the cards. Right. So there's a different level of constraint. And, you know, tied to what we're doing, you know, the things we become passionate about in our service, Brother Shaw probably most pastors would say ⁓ something like our ministry opportunities look a lot like what's right? What's available to be done of us. ⁓ you know, when you as your work with your family to do your best job to take care of your family, that really is number one. And that's that's a lot of work. Right in your case is very unique and you will deal with some challenges that I can't I can't fully understand because I'm not in your shoes and I I can imagine the challenge and again these men doing some of same things and probably true in both cases. Whether it's people who want to go hey I should be involved. Jesus was concerned about I'll say the marginalized use terms we use today whether it's incarceration homelessness what have you. But Jesus also cares about Jonathon Anyone with some special need that really does require extra attention, people can be involved in these things in probably far more ways than they understand. Just like with prison ministry, there's a fear of, I go in, could I be attacked? And for anyone who's never been, in the case ⁓ the group that I've been working with, Steve Miller's been doing it for 30 years, never had a problem, not in 30 years. So there's a lot, but even knowing that there, I still hesitated for long time, but there are ways to help on the outside. Maybe you're an employer and you do second chance, or you can consider it, or you could be a big brother, like a mentor to some of the men, or if you're, for ladies that listening, a lady could be a mentor, a big sister. Maybe someone who teaches a Bible study, or if you're in a season of life, because there'll be folks that are either retired, in terms of the season of life or maybe their job is exceptionally flexible. Maybe they're just someone who picks a man or a woman up if it's appropriate genders. When they get out of prison, they take them to the halfway house just so they're not because sometimes these guys actually in some of the jails, they might get released at night. Wow. Like the bus is not going or their most prisons are really out in the middle of some field hours intentionally so. But even local jails or county jails. So there's a lot of ways to get involved. In the same way, if someone says, I don't know that I could provide respite for a family who has either foster kids or a child with autism or Down syndrome or some unique need, probably could pray for them. Some people are like me, I'm a good cheerleader. I don't have the patience to do it. Maybe it's someone who helps bring awareness to the need and helps a local congregation rally around those families. One person's praying, someone says, I know you guys need a date night. Here's ⁓ my gift card is for the sitter who has that, know, there's probably ways we can be involved in various ministries that we just haven't thought of that really do further the kingdom. ⁓ And with I'll say within our natural, not so much our comfort zone, but within our natural giftings that God's given us. Right. Again, I know mine's not you. You wouldn't leave me with kids with special needs and not my I don't have the patience, but but I could help bring awareness or I know there's some things I can do. And so I think for any of us as we see some interesting ministry opportunity come up, within my giftings, how could I, you we can be curious and how could I be involved? Because it is, and I think this is probably true of any ministry of this nature. You are going into a situation where you do not get something back, right? Someone who says, I have the temperament to, could, sitting is not the right word, but if somewhere I hang out with Jonathan one night, so you and your wife go on, you and Tanya go on a date. There's people, that's their temperament and it probably brings them joy. Right? Like they're really gifted. So look for those ways to use our giftings to support these ministries. It will change your life. Because the person who does that, they're not necessarily getting something back from John. They might get joy. But it's not like they're selling him a product or a service. When I go to, you go to a prison ministry, whether you're doing a ⁓ service, like a normal church service, or you're teaching a class, I don't get to charge those guys. Right? But I often... feel like I have received infinitely. You know, more than I put in. Yeah, I was going I was just thinking of, you know, asking you that, know, whatever you can feel free to share, you know, one of those moments, you know, because like said, you were just starting this journey. So it's been over a year since you had a year since you were here. And I could tell it had moved you. So that that moment that this is this is worth it. You know, I don't know if you could pick one or several or something like that. At what point did it just become, I get it now. I see what Jesus meant, right? It's usually the first time. Goodness. There's so many examples. I'm trying to think of just when the guys are, you have an idea in your mind, what is the prison going to be like, right? My first event was in a max they call max security and it's tied up to the amount of barbed wire and gates and towers. And, you know, it's sobering. They're built in the 50s. They look terrible. It's frightening. ⁓ know, I guess intentionally so. You go in, you know, there are a lot of razor wire and guard towers. You get in, get the metal detectors, get patted down as you go inside to the chapel in the inner part of the unit. There's this giant, more violent the prison, the bigger the sign that says no hostages beyond this point, which is sobering. But you go in and then like, so this case was a marriage seminar and there are men who are never getting out of their life without the possibility of parole and their wives showed up. Pretty interesting. Wow. Yeah. And some of them are pretty. you know, they're in for very violent, horrible crimes. And then you get a chance to mix with men, in this case, and their families who from horrible things with kids to murder, everything in between, and you'll watch the hope that the Lord is working in their lives, then they'll be genuinely grateful because we're from the outside. Many of these men, now that was a marriage where they see their spouse, but there are men who see no family. And you'll just, they'll be so genuinely grateful. I've in some of the things that were so impactful was there was those moments and for me this is For me, it's this part has been helpful is there's there are times lots of times that I think I'm better than other people Okay in full transparency usually when I'm driving on the highway. Oh, yeah. Well, we all Everybody is an above-average driver. Yeah, statistically that's impossible, right? I'm reminded one things that benefits me. I think probably anyone's when I go I know that I'm not better than them. In the eyes of the law, yes, I am in the free world, but not in the eyes of God. My sins in the worst, when I can look up their record, my sins and their sins are equal before the Lord. That helps keep me humble. And if I can be thoughtful in those moments, and if it remind the guys that they're not worse than me. Yeah, okay. Yeah, flip it on its head there. ⁓ So has this changed how you approach life at home? Life outside those moments? It. It certainly softened some of my views, right? Gives me a sense of humility. And you'd ask. So, yes, it does. It does change things. And part of it is just now that I get to engage in some of the units, get to participate in classes. So it any of these things where I get together with other men. If we're teaching about something, it helps remind me to try to apply it. So I can't say we're image creatures of God and they get angry at someone on the highway. The truth is they probably were distracted like I was. It's not that they're actually a defective person, right? But they're probably not really defective. They're probably just distracted, right? So those things help. then specifically to your question, there are times I'll watch God in the units where I can go back. watch hardness start to break. Okay. ⁓ In this one unit, in San Saba there's a guy who usually sits in the back. I say hold court, right? He gets out of the cage. I don't fault any man for doing anything to get out of that cage. Right. Be in the back, usually with group of guys, and they usually are talking, not terribly disruptive, but over the months I watched him still be at that group and talk less during the service, right? Participate, aware more. Right. ⁓ he did get baptized. And wait, because I talked to him before he got baptized. he just talked about this is this is the next step. If you're really going to be following Jesus, this is important. And he did get baptized, but I've watched and I talked to him and just asked about things like how your kids and and tell his real sensitive topic. But I could start to see some emotion come. But a guy that's hard, he touches shoulders like he's like steel. ⁓ grip is like a vice grip. ⁓ ⁓ had a sense of humility. but also hardness, but watch that shell break. then over time, we would talk and he would share things. And I'd see him come up to pray. And again, a guy that's hard, right? And then watch him come up to pray and then watch him act, not act, ask him to, ⁓ sometimes I like to get the guys reading scripture, being involved. I love the give and take and community, you know, crowd involvement. So if I have to lead a service, I usually ask guys to read some of the scripture, do different things. And one night I'd ask, said, hey, if I asked you to read, you read? Because I don't want to embarrass a guy. Right. Can they read? Yeah, yeah, I do. That's one of the things, right? I totally worry about, you know, is someone going to struggle with that or just be embarrassing? He's like, well, I'm not worthy. And he wasn't saying it sarcastically. I am not fit to read. the Which of us is? Right. Yeah, that's. You know, AI is going to try to take this pause out. It will be put back in. Yeah, those those moments are so ⁓ powerful. And was like, I had to tell him, I was like, none of us are. ⁓ None of us are. And it was revealing. Right. Like, so those moments were a hard man. And then one night. Same guy, we're walking out after a service. And I would tell him, said, man, I'm so glad you talked to me. And he's like, I'm glad you talked to me. I was like, no, no, I want you understand. You don't have a choice to be on this campus. I understand. said, but you have a choice to be in this service. And to participate. Yeah. I said, no, you don't even have to talk to me. I said, you know, I'm not tough enough to make you talk to me. I said, so I can talk to you and you could choose not to respond. I said, but you do. I said, thank you. And he and I and so walking out after one of the services, I asked him, what were your hobbies in the free world, as they say? And he he told me he's like. Basically working out and women, but he was not bragging, he was ashamed. How many times? Think about this. How many conversations have we had within our, you know, we say in the church, we mean the building we gather in. Right. I don't think I've, it's very rare that we would have a conversation with a brother and say, what did you do in the past? And they tell you so regretful. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but there's been these moments where I knew it was so revealing. right? Like he was not bragging he was not proud. And I'm sure that men and women who might listen to us, if they're leaders, if they're pastors or preachers or ⁓ some sort of leadership role, they probably had similar experience where someone's confessing. for someone who that's not my primary role, you say, how has this life changed? mean, when these guys share that with you, it's deep, right? guess so. They're giving you so much trust because men, don't share anyway. But in a place where transparency would be seen as weakness, where regret would be seen as weakness. He doesn't, this guy is not in one of the faith-based dorms, he's in a regular dorm. So it's just so interesting. So those moments that I've matured enough in life to know, ⁓ this guy has given me, he's really being so transparent, he is inviting me into his world. And this part I'll share, the thing that has been so rewarding with that, JJ's like, Brian, he hardly talks to anyone but he talks to you. Look. Maybe it's because I'm little, I'm not a threat. you know, those moments you go, OK, God has allowed me because in other inmates will connect with other people. you know, it's it's just how God will use us. You know, if we're there, he'll use us and in a way that connects. And the last time, you he and I talked before we went out, he shared those things with me. Try to tell me, you know what, as your discipleship grows, you said this can be hard. Maybe you won't believe this, but. There is something unique for you to do that only you can do for God. that is true of all of us, but you will have something in your life and you're gonna think it was a terrible thing you did. Probably the worst thing you've ever done. That might be your inroads to serving another man because as you overcome your testimony, it's like there will be things only you can do. people only you can reach that I would never reach but because of your experience and your life and you know when you when you as your discipleship grows as you really grow in the Lord and I said there will be things only you can do yeah well again he couldn't even like that was so I could tell it was not like he thought I was lying but that would be so foreign that there'd be something that he could do yeah well I think I think of Paul right I mean to be able to stand before the high priests and also these foreign controllers and rulers and say I used to condemn this way I used to be one of the people that was putting these people to death I encountered this man that they claimed was God and I know that he is God and here is the result of that you know how much weight did he bring to Caiaphas and the high priest and that council When I was a Pharisee, I lived among the strictest of the sects of the Pharisees. I was of you. ⁓ I am, I know what I'm doing, right? I'm, this is not some fly by night thing. This is not something I just decided to do one day. ⁓ have been transformed by this in so many words, right? ⁓ and so, you know, those people walked away thinking had to be thinking in the back of their mind. ⁓ There's got to be something there, right? This guy was not some flighty on the fringes Pharisee. was on his way to take care of some people on Damascus, right? And he disappeared from us. And here he is back proclaiming that he has spent literal time in the presence of this one called Jesus who's instructed him in Egypt and given him these insights into our law and our books as to why he was the one that fulfilled them. Wow. Yeah, so yeah, there are those there in there there are others In some of the circumstance where we have a chance to teach classes There's units where the men want discipleship. So for people go well, I'm not a preacher, but I love to teach I feel have a heart for discipleship There's so many opportunities, but I in one where I get to go and spend more time at the Bartlett unit First man, he's been in prison since he was 16. He he killed his mother He shared an article with me that when he was in another unit that the Houston Chronicle wrote up on him. So he gave me the article and he had grown up in an abusive home. And as the story as he told the story to the reporter and she reported it when he was 16, he had got a new girlfriend. Mom was very unhappy with it. And he tells the story as the mom came after him with a knife. He picks up a shotgun. He shoots his mother. He takes her life. He burns the house down around her. The police find the body, find the shotgun, they find no knife. Right, so his story can't be corroborated. So since he was a very young man, he's been in prison. He now has a bachelor's degree in theology. He's a field minister. But he's also at a place of struggle because some things have happened in that unit. There's some conflict. And Bartlett's a pretty awesome unit. It's called an innovation unit. They're doing a lot of programs really working to really help. transform these men and he's been leading a dorm, but he had shared with me I don't think anyone there will be listening to this I don't know how they get access but not a lot of access to the outside world and he had he was sharing Just this challenge. He goes I know God's forgiven me goes but right now I just have all these nightmares Right and he goes cuz his mom's life not long after I guess a number of years ago His father took his own life. So he you know feels that he obviously knows he's responsible with his mother He feels responsible for his father. They've had some things in the unit not work like they wanted. He's feeling this way and just that the struggle of that and when he's sharing this, can, you can tell it's sincere, right? Like, and that's a struggle that I can't relate to. And when I was talking, we were talking, it's like, Brian, you know how many people have done what I've done in this world? Like not very many, right? There's not that many people who say, I shot my mom. You know, they're trying to work through this. it's, you know, it's like, well I don't have words. pray, right? We'll pray and we'll be together. That's it. Because there's not words to undo that. It's just like anything else, we have to mature in our faith and go through the process of ⁓ forgiveness or struggling through whatever challenge comes up. What's been beautiful is in that they're starting another cohort where they're mentoring guys. And he was thinking about changing dorms because there's just some conflict, not physical, but emotional conflict. ⁓ yet he stayed to work through it. And so I got to see them on Friday as a team discussing their issues. So they were gathered as a team of leaders in a prison, working through their issues the way most of us ought to, but often don't on team. it was just this beautiful thing where you get to sometimes see discipleship from a different angle. And it has been very rewarding. I think part of it just, God's found a place that I can use some of my giftings. Also just because I was available. That's the other thing that I've learned in prison ministry because I've watched some of the people and I'll say maybe they're not polished. Neither. I'm an acquired taste too, brother, like unsweet tea. ⁓ Very much an acquired taste. And you can see that God will just use whoever's available. So that's the other thing for someone who might listen to this and think I have no talents, trust me, if I can go and make friends, anyone can. There's, you know, anyone can. What about, and we were... discussing at breakfast this morning with a group of men, know, tying in this idea of being able to be bored, being able to be just in the moment without the distractions that all of the social media and the technology that we have today have and how that's all lost art. And it's also, I think, a detriment to humanity and society because one of the ways the body regulates anxieties is in those moments of doing absolutely nothing. One thing I think that I know is absolutely lost is that I want to come with the answers. I want to come with the solution. want to come. Can I just sit with somebody and just be Because sometimes there are no answers that. I'd like to think I've matured I'm 51, probably spiritually and emotionally 30. That might be and that might be overly generous, brother. I might be being too generous with myself, but I have learned and maybe it's my temperament or the way I want people to be with me, which is direct, that when you're candid with these guys, it's far more impactful. And sometimes life is rough, even for a believer, right? It's just we can go through times that aren't OK. It is terrible. And I have found, especially in that prison setting, to be candid, right? Just like if this is going to be terrible, it's terrible. I got no words, man. We're just going to pray. And if you're here tomorrow, we'll do it again and we'll, you know, we'll pray. And if there's things we can do, we'll try to do them. But just being willing to be transparent, to be candid, because when things are going to be rough, they're just going to be rough. And not pretend and they've, they've generally appreciated and responded well on Thursday night. There's a class called Malachi dads, two books, one heart of a man and then the heart of a father. And afterwards talking to the guys, they're like, Hey, thanks for just being so truthful. I was like, well, probably shouldn't lie to inmates. You guys probably have a pretty good truth detector. Yeah. They brought the BS detectors on those guys. It's probably off the charts. going to con the confidence men, but they appreciated. transparency and candor. And again, you'll see the guys that are sincere in their faith, or versus just trying to get out and look, I don't fault if I'm been locked up and you tell me to take 10 classes, you'd get parole, I'm going to take the classes because who wants to be in a cage. At the same time, I will tell them, if you're serious about the Jesus stuff, I'm just you know, you're serious, like you can leave prison and be an atheist and never come back. I don't mean this is true. It is better with the Lord. said, you, number of times, especially at Bartlett, because it's close to where we are, I'd say, if you're serious about serving the Lord, I said, ⁓ always remind them I'm good at being redundant and repetitive. I told them, you need to have a congregation before you leave. You need to have a small group planned before you leave, because that's where discipleship and one-on-one can happen. You need someone who cares enough about you to say you're off track and let you be angry. And I said, if you... don't have a body of believers you're part of and you get released around here, come to my congregation. You can be part of the men's group that I'm part of. Come to a small group I'm part of." And one of the guys goes, for real? I'm I'm not lying to you guys. Just remember, not lying. And I told him where New Life Austin is. You know, it's on Mopac between Wells Branch and Palmer. Come back another week. He's like, hey, your church really is there. And I was like, did you think I was like one those women at the club that gave you the fake number? Like you looked up on Google Earth, there's just a field. There's no building, just a field. I was like, no, it's really there. goes, we live behind that. We live back off Wells Branch. I was like, you're very welcome to come. He's like, are you sure? was like, yes, again, not lying to you. And he goes, what's your church like? And I was like, oh, I know what he means. Do they look like me? And so in this unit, there's about 50 guys, the colors of the rainbow. So I said, hey, when you look around here, it's just like this. And we let women in too. you know, his fiance there, he actually gets released this coming week. Whoa. Yeah. And I'm really looking forward to Caesar and his fiance coming. He I might be on an ankle monitor. He's like, look, if you're on a monitor and you can't leave, I said, here's a church card. You can connect with me through the church. Right. come to your house and teach a Bible study just so your fiance can get connected. I don't care about the ankle monitor. You know, if you can't leave, that's cool. But he didn't ask, know, for the rest he didn't say, so what's your view on the Godhead? How do you baptize? Are you Catholic or what? He didn't ask anything. So, and again, it's not that I'm that special, it's just I was there. Let me ask you this, and it was kind of headed in that direction with some of the stuff you've been saying. The idea that ⁓ You are now being granted these opportunities. Because you have chosen to become consistent with your attendance. Do you think you would have those had you been hit or miss once every two or three months? There's got to be some buy in on your part of it to get to that point. Yes, so the consistency, I think. And I would say if someone who wants to volunteer, do it however you can. So, for instance. A person could say, you know what, I could do that once a year. Well, there are marriage day, marriage events. There are services. There's like day with dads, day with moms. There's a lot of events. And if someone could only volunteer once a year, it'll still change your life. OK, right. mean, that's that's so valuable. I don't want to discount that. But to your broader point, yes, I had watched I was very intentional in the places and the consistency, because in my mind, I know I'm not a. preacher or a pastor, that's not my calling. But at the same time, Jesus said, and make disciples. You do have to be converted before you can become a disciple. The conversion itself is just the first step, right? And I knew for my own life, it's small group setting, right? One on one or one on few. And the way to do that is relationship and over time. So was like, okay, and I find a place I can go over and over to build that relationship to disciple Right and determine is that person sincere now? Am I a pro at it? No, some of these guys could still be working me. I'm I recognize I'm a novice, but the the consistency many of these men say they have no one comes to visit like there's another guy that should be getting out this two guys are getting out like in the next week or two. I fully expect to see them at New Life Now one of them will live in Temple like but I got a motorcycle. I can be there. I was like you're welcome. I said no. So someone from New Life watches this. You see one of my friends. I'm introducing them as a friend from a small group. I said, you can you can take the rest of that. But I'm not going to open you up for. Yeah, I don't want to. Yeah. You know, in a small group. And this is all true. And TC, the one I expect from Temple, I had, the classes are like Thursday, Friday class on a Thursday night. So on one of the Thursday nights, I just like I'm in town. I should be there. Well, it happened to be New Year's Day. It's a prison. figure they one day is it's days a day. They go. I showed up. They're like, oh, there's no class. I was like, well, cool. I can leave. You can have your time back. We could have class or we just hang out and go. Let's have class. Well, TC was there. I don't even know if I talked to him that night because it's a group. Right. know, like 50 guys. Probably a full month later was a number of Thursday nights later. He comes back up. He's like, hey, I just want to say thanks for coming on the holiday because he doesn't have a family. And it was just, like I said, I don't even know if I spoke to him on the holiday. But he saw you. I have a family member, my father-in-law who's in a nursing home and that is another form of a prison. don't want to demean that, that environment, those communities, those people, but he's a prisoner of his body and he's also, he outside of a few appointments, you know, he never leaves that facility often other than down the hall for some physical therapy and then, you know, the meals and he's in his room and. ⁓ He doesn't get enough visits from me, let alone anybody else. mean, his, my mother-in-law's there almost every day. And then I, I need to be there more. Yeah. And I think, well, it doesn't matter. when, know, you know, he's, he's not long. He's, he's in the last stages of Parkinson's. Um, he's, he's one cold away from not being able to breathe his lung capacity. so. What is it? I guess it's hard. It's hard to go see somebody. In those circumstances, and we make it about us. And how uncomfortable I am, right? And we don't take that step back and say, what does this do for them? Yeah, the guys love it. And I think that nursing homes, don't call them orphanages, but group homes, right? Any of these places. Yeah, it is. It's always sobering when I walk out of a prison, so sobering. And I'm walking out. These guys are there. Now, again, I've not very rarely one of the guy act like he hasn't owned it. The ones that, you know, they'll totally own their mistakes. You can see the repentance. But yeah, they in many of these guys will vocalize what probably most of them think. They'll they'll say, hey, we know that you're a volunteer. You're paying to be here. They'll do the sort of that mental math of you could be with your... And they'll say, every now and then I'll say, I'll mention wife and kids. I'll say, thank your wife and kids that you're here. You know, they know I could be ⁓ is this thought came the ⁓ burden the weight the joy the ministry that your family does carry in that it happens in every ministry from the from the from the pastor to the to the lay preacher to the whatever right you know the the family does carry part of that right they they don't get full access to you because you do have these nights that you're not around the house. ⁓ Do we really appreciate that? Do I appreciate that in my wife? And my son? And do I appreciate that in the families of the others? I see doing this and it is great when those guys acknowledge that, It's super cool because they really any of us as volunteers have just that unique opportunity to touch them. They many of them will they'll realize that or others will mention they'll they'll bring that to their realization that oh, yeah, I'm a volunteer. I'm not paid. I'm not part of the paid staff. And I will say on the on the side of us as volunteers, we do need to be intentional with our families, right? That we're planning other times so that we're not. And I had the chaplain there. Tell me, Brian, don't don't overdo this and sacrifice your family, right? Like you need to care for them first. Like good, good advice. So we this is all scheduled and planned. And then Courtney came to the marriage seminar at Bartlett that was there. It's probably been a month or so ago now. ⁓ And so I'd been a good enough husband last year. My Christmas present was her going through the TDCJ training. And I should get that to you. Maybe you put in the show notes. Because one thing that if you ever think I might volunteer, you can get in (you can't just decide to). Yeah. And there might be ways to get in, on a periodic basis without. But if you want to go, if you want to be prepared to go kind of wherever the opportunity is, you can go through the TDCJ. training takes about 45 minutes online, but it can take a couple months sometimes to get the approval back. Courtney did that I got that for Christmas, right? So she's all go to a marriage seminar or a special event at some point. And it totally impacted her. Okay. There were 25 couples. Some of these people probably never, this is maybe not surprising to some, some of these people got married in prison. They'd never spent eight hours with their spouse. A number of them had never, we had a service at the end of this Saturday event. Some of them had never. been in a church service together. and Courtney is like, ⁓ know, I'm like a menopausal woman, so I'm going to cry all the time. You are. ⁓ I have ⁓ plenty of tears. you know, she the emotion was strong on her, too. She's like, I don't know if I can go back because it so emotional. Like, no, these couples need to see that. One of the guys, now this is, think all these are super impactful, but because I get to go back to Bartlett, where a lot of times we'll have this seminar, say we did a day with a family day at Ferguson, well, we're not back there, you know, the next couple weeks. I think some of the group was there for a Sunday service, but we're not there all the time. So I get to get feedback at a level that we don't typically get. One of the guys had come to the Lord in prison. Okay, not a believer before which not a life crisis, right? That usually bring none of us I like to this my friends like how many people have come to the Lord right after they their their salary got doubled. Their marriage is going great. They got some stock options worth, you know, life changing money. And they're like, today is the day I'm giving my life to Jesus. I think it's going well. I want to thank him. Usually it's the exact opposite. Right. So you shouldn't be real upset when someone comes to the Lord in prison. But so this gentleman had come to the Lord in prison, his wife is an atheist. He said after that event, she started asking questions about God. It went so well. And it was, you know, so. And I even mentioned when the guys like, my wife, you know, she I said, I want her to come back. She was concerned because of her emotion. I know we need to see that because they need to see people react to them like people. Yeah, like in one of the things I share with them, David, is when we have a service, I'll ask him like, hey, God hasn't given me the ability to read your driver's license numbers, not how this works. said, so how many are you're already a believer, you've been baptized in Jesus name filled with Holy Spirit, the number of guys will raise their hand. I'll say, okay, so today for this moment, like when scripture says there's neither Jew nor Greek or free nor bond, we're just some guys that are going to sing some praise songs, we're going to study scripture, we're going to pray together. So for a moment. And then the rest of you aren't there yet. You can become like us. How much different should walking into church Sunday morning look? if we were to. I and I've said this on a recent podcast. It's it's resonating here. I have spit in the face of the creator who designed me and who died for me and I have trod on his grace all too much. have presumed on his grace far too much in my my walk and to realize that I you know God, we talk about He's good, He's love, He's light, He's all of those things. But first and foremost, God is holy. And I have absolutely no right to enter into His presence. And He made a way for me to do that. How can I not come in just overflowing with gratitude and joy? And in my prayer the other morning, I typically go up to our church building. in the process of being kicked out. The ⁓ died and they're trying to sell us up. ⁓ much longer I'll have access to something like that. ⁓ know ⁓ visited me, I felt his presence and ⁓ tears flowed. This sovereign, holy, righteous God ⁓ to peel the veil back a little bit ⁓ let me feel his presence, he does not have to. He chooses to. And to know that while you're sitting there with those men that he chooses to do it there. It's the other one of the other things is really lovely is ⁓ in San Saba JJ does a good job leading the service, leading music. He's the um the field chaplain and inmate. And there will be songs where they use, you know, just CDs, right? There's not a choir, but they'll have a couple that are tracks and they'll pull down the just do a track and it'll just be the guys singing. Just a bunch of men and they're terrible, which is awesome. Like it's not that some of the guys do sing well, but the beauty like there's just the men singing like that's just powerful in itself. Yeah. And. Imagine if you and I the next time where someone comes up to pray with us We just tell them what we're praying for hey, I'm off track I need my language or my thoughts or I need to be a better husband or a better father or better Honestly, I've got as we my language has been I've been pushed I've been slipping here Lord and I had that conversation, you know I don't want to tread on your grace. And if we just tell our brothers what we're praying for like these guys do We can be that catalyst because I'm like, what can I take away and apply? Because it's just their nature to come up because we'll ask him, what are you praying for? They'll tell me anytime they just tell us. And like, OK, I can apply that. Back when I'm with the other guys, I can take that transparency. and do the same thing. And part of it maybe is I appreciate being with people. You know, we've all done something and there's not there's not a pretense of perfection. And I do think that that is one thing that's helped me is now that I've been around the sun a few times, it can be easy for someone, even if you came to the Lord as an adult and had a really rough life. And that's BC before Christ. No matter when we came. Unless someone is unique and it's just not true, we've all messed up since coming to the Lord. And for me, being willing to be transparent when the time is appropriate in my failures has helped me connect with the guys, but also helped me connect with others, not just in prison, but within our own congregation. Because you can look out there and see someone who's either older or they're dressed nice and forget that some... If they've been living for the Lord for a significant amount of time since coming to God, since being baptized in Jesus' name and filled with the Holy Spirit, my greatest transgressions were since then, not before, because I was younger, right? As a married man, as a father, my greatest failures. Sometimes being in these, for me, this is just me, in these volunteer situations has enabled me to think, ⁓ yeah, if I can admit it to these guys. One, it's good for me, right? confess, James said we confess, I'm paraphrasing, confess our sins to God to be forgiven. And I talked to you about them to be made whole, to heal. And so at the right place in the right time. I found to be very helpful for me, but helpful for them because they're like, oh, you know, if we're talking about being a good dad or a good father, I'm just telling them the things I did wrong. Oh, or, know, even the prayers I have today. Right. Or, you know, one minute I'm like, be good to your wife. And then I have a blow. I'm like, look, I talked to the guys about it and they're like, I probably will go home and set my face on fire tonight. So I, I don't have this down. I am trying just like you. I'll say, that's why I say if you get out and you're near us, come be part because I need you to struggle with me as much as you need me on the the days you're struggling. so that like I said, there'll be I think some men are naturally better at that. But that is something that I've learned along the way, learn to share my testimony, not the one from 100 years ago. No, the one that's more recent. Anything. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to choose that carefully. And those men seem to take you into their confidence and they know how to hold a confidence. That's when they can't tell a lot of people they're they're locked down pretty literally technologically. A lot of them too. Also, is the fact that that's that that culture that came out of the game. You know, snitches get stitches, right? Yeah, don't. If somebody shares something with you that is considered a sacred trust. And so I think you probably have more confidence even if they do get out that your stories you tell them will never go to anybody else. Can we become as safe for other people as a prisoner would be with what I trust them with? mean, the things guys have shared, like their struggles, I really do try to take time to say thank you. Like, thanks for sharing that. I don't take it lightly. I get my friend with the vice like, look, you I can talk to you, you can choose not to talk to me. When you share with me, I value it because I know it's men don't share to begin with. In a prison, in this community, this is the last place to be transparent, the last place to shed a tear, the last place to say, I have to be weak. because strength is valued because there there will be really rough prisons. One of the the books we're going through talks about Angola in Louisiana before years ago, and it's probably still is a rough place. But at the time of the writing of the book, the story they told, I think there were, you know, maybe 5000 inmates there. Like a third of them had life without potential for parole. So no, nothing to lose. They're not getting out anyway. Horribly violent. But the Lord was working in there. It's through like, you know, a few converts. There's more. And the story talked about, you know, a giant man who's exceptionally violent, like a murder, a killer, not like a one, like a bad dude came to the Lord, but his conversion impacted many others. And it's safer now. But you have men of that caliber and you can can connect with them. And they're people, yeah, did some bad things. But again, that part that comes back to me every time is, okay, Brian, you're not better. And for the guy who's either been converted, it's a reminder to him that he's not worse. And the guy who's struggling to think, can I be forgiven? Because I'm so bad. Well, Brian, I have had conversations with you at breakfast over the last year. I've seen this total transformation in your life. So let me just where we've been at this while we need to bring this in. I'm going to have to have you back to continue this conversation. This has been so, so rich. But ⁓ thinking about somebody's listening to this and you've already kind of given the one thing that the. Texas Department of Criminal Justice, TDJ, CDCJ. Yeah, there's all the fun initials. All the acronyms that are out there. So there's that one that's available. ⁓ And you've dropped it along the way. Let's just kind of summarize. So if somebody's heard this. And it may not be prison. It could be a nursing home. And I've been in the nursing homes and led the services where it was just me and the people, the volunteers and, you know, the room wasn't available. And you end up all those fun things. I've been in a make for great stories. Yeah. I've been in the prisons a few times and stuff like that. So but if somebody really wanted to try to test the waters, so to speak, I think probably the TC TDS, whatever, TDCJ, Texas Department of Criminal Justice. It took me like two years to figure it out. TDCJ. Yeah. So probably they would need to be intentional. Okay. this might be something want to do. So obviously that would be one thing to go ahead and get the clearance so that when and if those opportunities come up. You know, you get you get passionate about it. You're like, ⁓ I need to do this. then now you got to wait six weeks. OK, how about get that out of the way first so that when the time comes, you can go in. What else? mean, I know there's needs for people coming in, people coming out. ⁓ drop this real quick summary of what are ways people that are interested if this is something that that has God has touched him on and they want to start exploring this, where could they start? ⁓ question. So. Very generally. Any of those ministries where you're going outside the building, nursing home, group homes, jails, prisons, right? Find the person in your congregation who's already doing it and just say, hey, I'd like to go and watch. I'm scared to death or what? Use your temperament. But if you were leading it and I was, say what I said to Steve, like, I don't know what to do, but I'd like to come. I'm just like a helper. Whatever that means, I'll carry stuff in. Go and just watch, right? There's a lot of times it might just be they need someone to pray with someone. And if you go, I've struggled with it, just go. Just be transparent. Like, hey, this is my level of comfort. You know, start praying about the opportunity. Meet the people in your congregation doing the thing and just be willing to go and watch, right? Because you don't think, I'm not the preacher. Do I have to lead? No, just go and watch and, you know, carry the stuff in or whatever it may be because the Lord will open up opportunities from there. Now, beyond that, like said, there's mentoring opportunities, Bible study teaching. simple things like again, someone could be in a place in life where they're retired and they would just take someone to and from work because they get up early naturally and don't want a guy that's in a halfway house spending two hours on a bus. So there's so many ways ⁓ to be involved. So connect with the person in your congregation, you your pastor, hey, I've been thinking about this. who leads nursing home ministry or who's leading the prison ministry. And maybe your congregation doesn't have that person, your pastor will know someone who's doing it. in Texas, the reaching out in love" prison ministry. We're not it's not an official 501 c 3 but there's a Facebook page, not a website yet working on that. But probably every congregation, the pastor will have a connection if there's not someone there. So a pray but more importantly, or not more importantly, along with that, don't just pray, pray and talk to your pastor to find that person because you can pray for that individual. Again, you might just be able to connect and watch them and go and just observe because it really will be life-changing. ⁓ With that drop some some notes in there ⁓ has a podcast I think you've actually had some people involved in this on podcast recently some people that were we did we had ⁓ Charlie Maloff who's with Texas Cure He was former law enforcement became incarcerated. ⁓ He he was wrongfully convicted He's working on that and he now with Texas Cure C-U-R-E It's an acronym and I forget what it stands for but he works with as you say justice impacted to help ⁓ correct wrongs. Yeah. So so been been talking about it. So his podcast is "Just a Thinker" And so I will have links in the show notes to that and definitely have Brian back at some point in the future. I have been challenged. have been enriched. I want to thank you for taking time out on a Saturday morning and this afternoon and evening. You're going to turn around and head back out to do that. What you do. And so, ⁓ I honor you in that. I'm still, I'm humbled by the fact that you do what you do the way you do it. And, and, ⁓ step back from that. If you're not able to do. this. that's okay too but you can still pray. ⁓ am not in a position to participate in the ministry like you are. My life circumstances are different and that's just the way it is and I tend to beat myself up. I should be doing more. I need to be doing that too. No, I'm walking in the calling that God has called. The analogy I gave you recently was if God has called you to be a candle, you don't go climb the first street light that you find and say I'm going to change the world because you're going to get snuffed out and even if you stay lit, not doing anybody any good. If God has called you to be a floodlight, you don't go sit over people's kitchen table because you're useless to them too. walk in the calling you're in. So you're embracing that. It took you a few years to get there. Like I said, you're in your 50s now. It's never too late. God's not done with us yet. I am fully convinced I've got more coming. in the years to come with the limitations that my life has on it and we're ready to go. So Brian, thanks again for coming in. I have enjoyed this. This has been rich and let's not let it be another 12 months before we do this again. Amen. Amen. And with that, this has been Revving Up with David Ross and my guest, Brian Bootka and all of the stuff will be in the show notes. Like, follow all the stuff you see on the screen right now if you're seeing this on YouTube and we'll catch you on the next episode. you ⁓ you