403. Conflict Avoidance: Why Normal Conversations Feel Like a Fight (and How to Tell the Difference)

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I was at Baskin Robbins with my Gen Z kids.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is a little while ago, and I am milkshake comes out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so thick that it was still basically ice cream, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I asked the young woman behind the counter to thin it out, which I thought was a very reasonable request.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I asked nicely, there was nobody waiting in line.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I tipped her extra.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But my Gen Z kids were horrified that I'd asked and they looked at me, I swear like I just flipped over a table and screamed at this woman.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was sort of shocked.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was really taking it back in the moment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And my first thought was, talk about conflict avoidance on steroids, my Lord.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I asked her to thin out a shake.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But this shouldn't even be called conflict avoidance because there was no conflict here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What my kids had was a low tolerance for discomfort, directness or this idea that there could be any disapproval.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So it was so low that it made ordinary communication feel like a fight or like a conflict.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this isn't just a Gen Z thing because I see the same low tolerance for basic
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[SPEAKER_00]: communication in 50 year olds too.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So today we're going to talk about why direct communication feels so hard.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How to tell what's really a conflict and what's just, you know, plain old communication and my five steps to raise your tolerance so you can stop reacting and start connecting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So stay tuned.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Relationships Made Easy Podcast, where I give you the exact steps to create connection, joy, and ease in all your relationships, whether it's with your partner, your family, your friends, or most importantly yourself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Dr. Abby Medkath, psychologist, bestselling author, TEDx, speaker, and the bossy Jewish mom you didn't know you needed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Each week you'll get no nonsense, research back strategies, serve with humor and love, so you can stop second-guessing yourself and start having the relationships you deserve.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You'll always leave knowing exactly what to say and do to shift your relationships for the better.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So let's get to it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is the most important podcast episode I've done in years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I really, really do.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I tell people all the time when I'm getting interviewed, you know, on the news or whatever, by whoever, I'm on a panel speaking.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I get asked a lot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think is the top problem today?
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[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think is the biggest thing, you know, mental health issue facing people or what's getting in the way most of relationships are happiness or satisfaction, all the things, and I always say conflict avoidance.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And
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[SPEAKER_00]: But again, that's a little misleading because of, I think, it's really just this avoidance of almost any social interaction that, again, I think should be seen as sort of quote, quote, normal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we're getting into all of it today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Buckle up Buttercup.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm coming out you with everything that, again,
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is, again, one of those like seminal episodes I'm doing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, let's talk about it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What counts is conflict and what's just communication, and
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say first, communication is of course a two-way street, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're, you're just saying something to another person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not communication because your information, what you said, needs to be received.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It needs to be understood by the other person to call it communication.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But today isn't about how to communicate.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that others understand what you're trying to convey.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's not what I'm doing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've covered that a million times before.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll link to all those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But today I'm talking about communication as it relates to the issues people have with doing it at all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So.
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[SPEAKER_00]: for today, communication is about letting someone know what's going on with you, which means what you want, like my milkshakes end out, what you'd prefer, how you feel, what you think, or what you noticed about something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Conflict is when two people's needs collide, so that
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[SPEAKER_00]: When meeting needs, one person's needs means that the other person's need won't get met.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I want to say that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Look, it took me a minute there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's when those needs collide.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, so that meeting one person's need means another person's need won't get met.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and most of what people call their conflict avoidance is avoiding communication completely because it feels like there's going to be upset on the other side.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what that is and that means that asking for what you want is communication and so is saying no, so is telling someone they hurt you disagreeing about whether a movie was any good and giving or getting feedback all of those
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[SPEAKER_00]: none of those ask anybody to give up something they care about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, none of them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter how the other person answers, both of you and the relationship come out fine on the other side.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They sure they can feel uncomfortable, okay, but but feeling uncomfortable and being in a conflict are two completely different things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason you avoid so much of what I consider and let me
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[SPEAKER_00]: most health care professionals would consider quote unquote normal communication the reason you avoided so much is because you're treating them like they're the same you are you are putting conflict where there's no conflict like my kids did with the with the milkshake so the quickest way to sort it out is to ask yourself one question am I telling them something or do we have to decide
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's a quick way to tell.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're telling them something, it's communication.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Even if your stomach is a nods, even if you think, oh, they might get upset by this, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If it's a true trade-off though, like whether the two of you are moving across the country to be closer to his family, or whether you or your sister is going to be the one to move mom in when she can't live alone anymore,
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[SPEAKER_00]: that can be conflict.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that can cause someone is going to give something up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And but conflict, or again, and I even hate that word a little here because it doesn't have to be a fight, but it is like two different points of view, maybe about it, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to say conflict, it's a normal part of healthy relationships because it's just a problem two people need to solve together.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's really what we're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But so back to my milkshake for a second.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say one more piece about this, for the record, okay?
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[SPEAKER_00]: The young woman behind the counter, at the moment, she said, sure, no problem.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't bat in I.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But let's say she'd side or bold her eyes a little before she fixed it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You might be thinking, well, that turned into a conflict.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, a side is just her letting me know she'd rather not, which is a preference, which we've talked about before.
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[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, she's saying a preference with the side, with her breath instead of her words.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Other people are allowed to be a little annoyed with you, and their annoyance doesn't turn your request into a fight.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know this is hard for the people, please, or especially, I know, and that's where all the fear lives because the thing you've been running from all these years probably, especially if you're a big people, please, or isn't the request, it's the possibility that somebody might be mildly or wildly, but even mildly irritated by it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is insane.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I say would love.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's nuts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Stick with me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to help.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So why does asking for something feel so uncomfortable?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go there next.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That seems like the natural next place to go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Asking feels uncomfortable because your brain is reacting to its prediction of how the other person will respond.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not to what's happening in front of you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not what it's reacting to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's reacting to a prediction.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like my kids were already reacting, the young woman behind the counter hadn't done anything yet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, I heard them gasped.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, and that prediction that you have tends to be way too pessimistic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's where, oh, she's gonna, she's gonna spit in your shape, which by the way, has watching a whole time, she couldn't, but you know what I mean?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, she, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh uh, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh
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[SPEAKER_00]: they were really overreacting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and they were.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even just saying, like, oh, I'm judging that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I asked someone to send out a shake.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There was no, if there'd been a long line, maybe I would never.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if she had had one alarm, I would have thought maybe that was harder.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but give me a break.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That we were to hang it out in the middle of the afternoon.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It was all fine.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But again, that prediction is way too pessimistic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing that needs to be uncomfortable and they request it all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So all of the discomfort, it's really living in your forecast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know me, I go and do research, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always like, well, and actually I'd read a, I had new I wanted to do this topic, so I first did a bunch of research.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I remembered a few studies.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a really great study that points to this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I mentioned it recently on the show, but I'm gonna say, you know, it's when people asked others directly for help.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They underestimated by as much as half
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[SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that correct, but so they were like so they were so sure they were going to get only knows and the researchers, by the way, pretty think they figured out why the person asking
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[SPEAKER_00]: was focused on what it would cost the other person to say yes, but the person being asked was focused on how awkward it would be to say no.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So in plain English, so you're standing there thinking, why can't ask her to remake this shake that's so much work for her, okay, which isn't saying.
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[SPEAKER_00]: While she's thinking, it would be so weird to say, no, to a customer, so, of course, I'll do it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, or, like, oh, I think this woman will tip me, or I've been in, she's been here before and she tips really well, or something out, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, do you see where I'm going?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're running the math on the wrong cost, and that's why your forecast comes out so gloomy, and wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
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[UNKNOWN]: But,
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[SPEAKER_00]: but there's another piece to this and it's how much we care about what other people think of us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of us don't just want the milkshake fixed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We want the person fixing it to like us while she does it, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the idea that she might even be a little annoyed with us feels unbearable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This woman, I'm probably never going to see again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if I do see her again, if I go into Baskin' Robbins every week, which I might have like my milkshakes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I see her over and over, she'll see like, oh yeah, that woman, she does ask to have her shakes then down, she's always really nice and she always tips me while and whatever.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, like, or she's entitled and thinks she shouldn't have to do work at her job.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but it doesn't freaking matter, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: But that worry that I just described that other people will like you and they'll be thinking, that has been growing and that is what I have noticed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As you all know, I talk a lot about how old I am.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And being in my 60s, I have been around a long time now and I have been doing this kind of work for 40 years, like something in the counseling field for 40 years in some way,
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[SPEAKER_00]: executive coaching or working drug and alcohol or working in hospitals or I've done it all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've sat in the back of police cars helping prostitutes get registered for healthcare.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've done that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's not much I haven't done this world and I have sat in
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[SPEAKER_00]: board meetings of companies you've heard of, you know, talking to the executives.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's, there's, in 40 years, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You do a lot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You, you put in your dues.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You work your way up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I work at Bellevue New York.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've done a lot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But, and I have seen that that worry about other people has been really growing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and of course, so I looked, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And like, what is the, and there's researchers who have tracked,
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[SPEAKER_00]: perfectionism for decades because that's what that is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You want to be perfect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to be the good girl.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to really like me, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They've tracked perfectionism for decades and they have found that one kind in particular has been speeding up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's one kind of perfectionism that's been speeding up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the belief that other people are judgmental and that they expect a lot from you and that you have to look perfect to when they're approval.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It, it, it held pretty steady for years and then started, you know, around the turn of the century around 2000 it started to really take off and the same researchers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: point out that when you're this sensitive about making mistakes, about someone not like you, about not doing it perfectly, about, you know, what they're going to think.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You tend to avoid situations where you might be judged and you hide, or you think you are, you know, these imperfections from other people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So again, that's the milkshake all over again, where, right, because you skip the request,
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[SPEAKER_00]: you know, she's an entitled bitch.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what that girl was, young woman was really thinking of me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't, I was kind, I was whatever.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I only have to worry about me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like am I acting in a way that's in line with my own beliefs about how I can be in the world?
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[SPEAKER_00]: and I'm not gonna lie.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm always blaming social media for everything because I really dislike social media and as you all know I'm not on there much I I do a few videos a week because I kind of have to but and I try to help but I do not play any of the social media game at all which is quite evident and so I want to blame social media trust me but I always do the research.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I I
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[SPEAKER_00]: I do, you know, but the, so the research shows otherwise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And this, and again, this is why I do the, I always read the studies.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That speed up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in this, like, worry about what other people are thinking, that speed up started before social media took off.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And most researchers think things like social media are amplifying pressures, but that pressures that were already there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're not creating the pressure from scratch.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So they, they were trying to be clear about that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm gonna be fair and fair in my assessment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: what social media did do is it put a number on approval, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: There was a study I read where teenagers were more likely to like a photo when it already had lots of likes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And seeing their own photos with lots of likes, as you might imagine, it was went along with like a lot more activity
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's big news, but the research backs it up, I always go there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So now, so at this, think about it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So now approval isn't something you have to guess at.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a count you can check and it's sitting right there in your pocket and hence one of the, you know, one of the many reasons that social media is so addictive.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But again, it shows up in so many ways.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I had this one client, this was pretty recent.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We'll call her Kim.
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[SPEAKER_00]: uh she was spending days she talked about it in session and then she spent days rehearsing how to tell her best friend she didn't want to go to the same Italian place again for this monthly dinner they were having right so every month she this one friend they would both drive about an hour to this other kind of mid place because they really thought it was important to see each other in person which I love
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[SPEAKER_00]: And once a month they did dinner in person.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the friend had found this Italian place in this middle town.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it had raved about it and they went.
17:37.705 --> 17:39.966
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was pretty good.
17:39.986 --> 17:42.847
[SPEAKER_00]: She said it was good.
17:42.887 --> 17:47.108
[SPEAKER_00]: But they had been doing this monthly dinner for six months and they kept meeting at the same place.
17:47.268 --> 17:49.468
[SPEAKER_00]: And my client was really sick of going there, right?
17:49.788 --> 17:53.289
[SPEAKER_00]: She had written out what she'd say.
17:58.591 --> 17:59.771
[SPEAKER_00]: But Tom, she finally said it.
17:59.871 --> 18:03.792
[SPEAKER_00]: She had built it into something close to like a conversation like we can't be friends anymore.
18:03.812 --> 18:04.973
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it was so crazy.
18:05.033 --> 18:07.814
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, and you know what a friend said when she finally did it?
18:07.874 --> 18:11.035
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, of course, I was telling her like, your friend's going to be fine.
18:11.135 --> 18:13.476
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, I actually said this a lot.
18:13.496 --> 18:16.857
[SPEAKER_00]: I said your, your friends probably sick of the place too and hasn't said anything herself.
18:17.658 --> 18:20.199
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure enough for a friend said, oh my god, I'm so sick of that place.
18:20.239 --> 18:20.679
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank God.
18:21.769 --> 18:23.489
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that was the whole thing.
18:23.829 --> 18:30.011
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my client was raving about it every time you went, trying to please her friend, do you see where it's going here?
18:30.351 --> 18:39.473
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a woman they had been kind of cultivating a friendship over time, and so they weren't me and my best friend, Rhonda, who I was talk about.
18:39.553 --> 18:41.694
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, obviously, we wouldn't do that.
18:41.734 --> 18:49.335
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is someone who's more socially anxious, and she was really trying to build this friendship, but they were old high school friends.
18:51.796 --> 18:54.438
[SPEAKER_00]: they were in their early 30s and it really 20s.
18:54.938 --> 19:00.401
[SPEAKER_00]: And so anyway, you know, there's a lot of thing and don't judge her and because you've done something like this, trust me.
19:01.262 --> 19:02.082
[SPEAKER_00]: But that was all thing.
19:02.543 --> 19:04.344
[SPEAKER_00]: Three days of dread for a restaurant.
19:04.864 --> 19:11.468
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's just, and I get this over and again, it's not just 20-year-olds or 30-year-olds.
19:11.588 --> 19:13.329
[SPEAKER_00]: I get it with 50-year-olds and 60-year-olds.
19:13.369 --> 19:14.530
[SPEAKER_00]: It's unbelievable.
19:15.290 --> 19:15.391
[SPEAKER_00]: And
19:16.432 --> 19:20.135
[SPEAKER_00]: that disapproval is the fear underneath most of this.
19:20.195 --> 19:28.762
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to make that clear and it makes sense that it hits so hard because when someone is upset with you, your brain reads it as a threat I've talked about this before, right?
19:29.662 --> 19:36.648
[SPEAKER_00]: The trouble starts is when you tie your own happiness to whatever someone else is feeling
19:37.653 --> 19:40.054
[SPEAKER_00]: hashtag codependency, hello codependence, right?
19:40.655 --> 19:44.837
[SPEAKER_00]: So a sigh, a short text, a pause on the phone.
19:44.997 --> 19:48.159
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to send you spiraling sometimes when it really shouldn't.
19:49.040 --> 19:52.782
[SPEAKER_00]: And I talked about this in my episode on what to do when someone is mad at you.
19:52.882 --> 19:55.123
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a whole episode on what to do if someone's mad at you.
19:55.524 --> 19:56.304
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will link to it.
19:56.344 --> 20:00.927
[SPEAKER_00]: And whenever I say I'm going to link to it for the new people, you can find it below the video on YouTube or you can find it.
20:01.347 --> 20:02.067
[SPEAKER_00]: on the website.
20:02.207 --> 20:03.148
[SPEAKER_00]: Go to this episode.
20:03.188 --> 20:04.829
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very easy to navigate my website.
20:04.849 --> 20:05.729
[SPEAKER_00]: Just go to this episode.
20:05.809 --> 20:08.530
[SPEAKER_00]: I write a full blog because I love you for every single episode.
20:09.011 --> 20:13.493
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can find any of the down free downloads, the links to past episodes, everything's right there.
20:13.593 --> 20:15.553
[SPEAKER_00]: And you could always do a keyword search on the website.
20:15.594 --> 20:16.274
[SPEAKER_00]: It's also easy.
20:17.234 --> 20:20.216
[SPEAKER_00]: But so I did a whole episode on what you're doing someone's mad at you.
20:20.236 --> 20:22.817
[SPEAKER_00]: But I want to take a moment and repeat just a little bit right now.
20:24.088 --> 20:29.089
[SPEAKER_00]: That threat signal comes from your limbic system, which I talk about a lot.
20:29.109 --> 20:32.790
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a part of your brain who's job it is to scan for danger and to keep you safe.
20:32.870 --> 20:34.150
[SPEAKER_00]: It's doing a very important job.
20:34.570 --> 20:40.331
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is that your limbic system can be a real drama king or a drama queen.
20:40.591 --> 20:44.632
[SPEAKER_00]: And it'll make you think, you know, a hang-nail is cancer kind of thing.
20:45.072 --> 20:50.273
[SPEAKER_00]: So a sigh from the young woman behind the counter gets treated like a threat to your survival.
20:51.068 --> 20:51.308
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
20:51.889 --> 20:52.710
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what happens.
20:52.750 --> 20:53.771
[SPEAKER_00]: And we all know it.
20:53.871 --> 20:55.052
[SPEAKER_00]: We've also we've all been there.
20:55.112 --> 20:59.677
[SPEAKER_00]: And if someone does get upset after you've said something honest, right?
20:59.737 --> 21:05.183
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, start you can just start by acknowledging how they feel and don't say a word about your intentions.
21:05.243 --> 21:06.484
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't mean it that way.
21:07.385 --> 21:08.386
[SPEAKER_00]: You took that wrong.
21:08.446 --> 21:09.507
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't just say, oh.
21:10.548 --> 21:11.408
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, right?
21:12.469 --> 21:17.290
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't say anything about your intentions because your intentions aren't going to move the conversation forward.
21:17.810 --> 21:23.491
[SPEAKER_00]: acknowledging how they feel, by the way, isn't agreeing with them that they should feel that way.
21:24.291 --> 21:29.253
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, apologizing or saying you were wrong, none of that is helpful.
21:29.373 --> 21:34.854
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just create, all you're trying to do is create some understanding and acknowledging someone's feeling.
21:34.894 --> 21:38.315
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, yeah, oh, that really hit hard, huh?
21:38.935 --> 21:39.816
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's it.
21:39.856 --> 21:40.476
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like I do.
21:40.756 --> 21:42.037
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like I do.
21:42.117 --> 21:47.419
[SPEAKER_00]: They might still be upset with you, and that's about them not you, but you're acknowledging and that's your job.
21:47.640 --> 21:49.120
[SPEAKER_00]: So don't apologize, don't agree.
21:49.160 --> 21:49.941
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to do any of that.
21:50.041 --> 21:52.042
[SPEAKER_00]: Just acknowledge people or loud feelings.
21:52.182 --> 21:54.763
[SPEAKER_00]: We've all overreacted at different points, right?
21:55.664 --> 22:00.146
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would away, I would say, remember feelings are always valid, but they're not always accurate.
22:01.227 --> 22:04.709
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're not saying they're right when you validate or hold space for their feelings.
22:04.909 --> 22:07.250
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just saying they're allowed to have them, okay?
22:09.062 --> 22:10.884
[SPEAKER_00]: So how do we get so bad at this?
22:11.344 --> 22:25.618
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will tell you, we got here slowly over decades as one change after another made it easier to skip the small, uncomfortable moments that used to be part of every single day.
22:26.158 --> 22:26.979
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were.
22:27.380 --> 22:29.822
[SPEAKER_00]: And social skills are like any other skill.
22:30.222 --> 22:32.705
[SPEAKER_00]: They get weaker when you don't use them,
22:34.276 --> 22:55.407
[SPEAKER_00]: So when my kids, who are now there are 20 and 23, when they were in school during the pandemic and we're still finding out the ramifications of that shit show for the record, and they've been mostly immersed in a generation in social media and texting, right, as their main way of connecting communicating.
22:56.248 --> 22:56.348
[SPEAKER_00]: And,
22:58.257 --> 23:19.934
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a great term for this and it comes so okay there's a great term for this and it comes from a scientist named Daniel Polly I love you Daniel Polly he he studies I think he's still does he study didn't studies fish populations in the ocean okay I know you're like how does this relate Abbey I promise it does but he called what this is he called it
23:24.337 --> 23:37.720
[SPEAKER_00]: because he noticed that the scientists who track how many fish are out there, like, right, that's, you know, how many fish are out in the water, they treated whatever they found at the start of their careers as normal.
23:38.340 --> 23:47.722
[SPEAKER_00]: So as overfishing kept shrinking fish populations, each new generation of scientists started from a lower number and assumed that was normal too.
23:49.259 --> 23:50.760
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you see where I'm going here?
23:51.161 --> 23:53.523
[SPEAKER_00]: The same thing has happened with how we talk to each other.
23:53.863 --> 24:01.069
[SPEAKER_00]: The amount of direct face-to-face communication, your parents considered normal, or I considered normal, isn't what you grew up with.
24:01.469 --> 24:07.334
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you grew up with, isn't what your kids, if you have them now, grew up with.
24:07.895 --> 24:12.459
[SPEAKER_00]: So every generation thinks it's own baseline, it's just how people are.
24:13.492 --> 24:16.153
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not, it's gotten farther and farther away.
24:16.213 --> 24:21.794
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can sometimes acknowledge it and talk about things from sort of a theoretical perspective.
24:21.854 --> 24:23.154
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, back in your day, right?
24:23.514 --> 24:28.955
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, walking down the street in New York City and everyone's out on their stoop.
24:29.135 --> 24:30.955
[SPEAKER_00]: So everybody's talking to each other, right?
24:30.975 --> 24:33.556
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there wasn't even air conditioning.
24:35.016 --> 24:38.337
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when air conditioners became a thing, just to be clear.
24:39.370 --> 24:42.356
[SPEAKER_00]: like in my lifetime, you know, air conditioning in your home became a thing.
24:43.238 --> 24:44.180
[SPEAKER_00]: And New York is hack.
24:44.942 --> 24:50.253
[SPEAKER_00]: New York is hack hack hack, you know, so when it's hot hot hot hot in the house and there's no air conditioning,
24:51.410 --> 24:59.115
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, you go outside or you open all the windows or you write there's a lot of like interaction with other people later you're outside at night.
24:59.195 --> 25:00.336
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not in the house at night.
25:00.416 --> 25:02.617
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's stuffy and uncomfortable in the house at night.
25:03.258 --> 25:16.566
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, the this I so talking to people and having much more interaction and obviously you can, you know, so you can compare something like that to oh, I'm in my nice comfy home, whatever that is right.
25:17.106 --> 25:17.787
[SPEAKER_00]: I can have my.
25:18.367 --> 25:22.990
[SPEAKER_00]: I can not only have food delivered, I cannot even have to talk to the person delivering it.
25:23.150 --> 25:30.834
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell them to leave it on my front stoop or doorstep or whatever, and not even go see them, not even interact.
25:31.054 --> 25:33.176
[SPEAKER_00]: I can order everything online and not interact.
25:33.296 --> 25:35.597
[SPEAKER_00]: I can, I mean, literally, you, you know, right.
25:35.917 --> 25:37.198
[SPEAKER_00]: I can work remotely.
25:37.218 --> 25:39.979
[SPEAKER_00]: I can, you cannot interact with people.
25:40.140 --> 25:43.862
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, and I'm not anti-remote work or anything like that.
25:43.882 --> 25:44.982
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying any that.
25:45.082 --> 25:47.224
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying that you have to understand the cost.
25:48.084 --> 25:58.371
[SPEAKER_00]: So, there's wonderful pluses to things like that, and there's a lot of minuses, and if you're ignoring those, it's to your own peril, because we are social being.
25:58.992 --> 26:03.775
[SPEAKER_00]: And way back in 2000, I read a book, it was amazing, called Bowling Alone.
26:03.795 --> 26:07.318
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a really famous book now, and it was by a professor named Robert Putnam.
26:08.118 --> 26:10.440
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already warning us about this.
26:10.881 --> 26:14.884
[SPEAKER_00]: He showed, uh, in a book, bowling alone, highly recommend.
26:16.065 --> 26:17.166
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not get any money for that.
26:17.346 --> 26:23.692
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, that, like, he showed at the time that Americans, for example, were signing fewer petitions.
26:23.752 --> 26:26.335
[SPEAKER_00]: They belonged to fewer organizations that meet.
26:27.395 --> 26:36.781
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they knew their neighbors less, uh, getting, they were getting together with friends less often and even socializing with their own families less.
26:37.282 --> 26:37.642
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
26:38.182 --> 26:45.047
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I grew up at a time where you had a special Chrome cake in the Entoments or Fryhuffers in the freezer.
26:45.767 --> 26:50.548
[SPEAKER_00]: for when company came over and you didn't always know, like you'd be in your home and the door girl would ring.
26:51.248 --> 26:53.489
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'd go to the door and there'd be companies.
26:53.609 --> 26:55.869
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody would shop, we'd relatives who would drop by.
26:55.949 --> 27:02.971
[SPEAKER_00]: Friends who would drop by, who were in town, you didn't even know, and people would just or neighbors, whatever would just drop by.
27:02.991 --> 27:12.593
[SPEAKER_00]: And you would get out, my mom would get out the coffee cake, put out a pot of coffee at night, which seems crazy now, but I know some of you liked your drink coffee at night.
27:16.274 --> 27:28.763
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this book, again, bowling alone, he pointed out that more Americans were the reasons called that, more Americans were bowling than ever before, but they weren't bowling and leagues anymore.
27:29.283 --> 27:33.146
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I grew up both my parents weren't a bowling league, you know, that was such a thing.
27:34.106 --> 27:35.547
[SPEAKER_00]: These people were bowling alone.
27:35.808 --> 27:36.888
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what was happening more.
27:36.928 --> 27:39.270
[SPEAKER_00]: Some more people are bowling, but not in leagues are bowling alone.
27:40.291 --> 27:48.937
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, there's fewer places where you had to make small talk or ask for things or work out a disagreement with somebody who wasn't your best friend already.
27:49.738 --> 27:52.760
[SPEAKER_00]: Deep, are you picking up what I'm laying down here?
27:53.560 --> 27:54.061
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a lot.
27:54.121 --> 27:56.843
[SPEAKER_00]: And then came texting, right?
27:57.790 --> 28:01.175
[SPEAKER_00]: And Sherry Turkel from MIT, I talk about her a lot.
28:01.275 --> 28:02.436
[SPEAKER_00]: She is such a girl crush.
28:02.617 --> 28:04.018
[SPEAKER_00]: If anybody knows her, let her know.
28:04.279 --> 28:05.280
[SPEAKER_00]: I love her so much.
28:05.440 --> 28:10.467
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. Helen Fisher, Sherry Turkel, I have these women who are just amazing or had with.
28:11.715 --> 28:13.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Helen Fisher, I can't believe she's gone.
28:13.075 --> 28:22.417
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Sherry Turkel has been studying how technology changes the way we relate to each other for decades, for a very long time.
28:22.517 --> 28:25.478
[SPEAKER_00]: Way before it was cool, or anybody else was really talking about it.
28:25.958 --> 28:33.720
[SPEAKER_00]: And she found that what people most wanted was to avoid the stress of face-to-face interaction and to get away from feeling vulnerable.
28:34.320 --> 28:38.683
[SPEAKER_00]: people and to do that people mostly turned from talking to texting.
28:38.843 --> 28:40.164
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when texting came out.
28:40.204 --> 28:42.386
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to tell you I was like what the hell is this?
28:42.486 --> 28:44.047
[SPEAKER_00]: Why on earth would anybody do this?
28:44.147 --> 28:47.750
[SPEAKER_00]: Why when you just set an email if you had to like say something or why wouldn't you call?
28:48.350 --> 28:49.351
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we already had email.
28:49.371 --> 28:51.132
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like email or call.
28:51.292 --> 28:52.753
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not understand texting.
28:52.773 --> 28:54.034
[SPEAKER_00]: Did not use it for a long time.
28:54.134 --> 28:55.135
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's really weird.
28:55.155 --> 28:56.176
[SPEAKER_00]: We think about it now, but
28:58.027 --> 28:58.347
[SPEAKER_00]: world.
28:58.728 --> 29:14.869
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but texting lets you skip the face, the face, because even in a phone call, the pause, the tone of voice, and those are the parts that feel scary, but they're also the crucial parts where you learn how to handle another person's reaction.
29:15.912 --> 29:26.795
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to have it, Jonathan Hay, who wrote the ancient generation, among, by the way, that to me isn't even as best book, just for the record, the happiness hypothesis.
29:27.095 --> 29:28.055
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many good books.
29:28.075 --> 29:31.917
[SPEAKER_00]: He's written, I can't remember the one about politics.
29:31.977 --> 29:32.497
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good.
29:32.997 --> 29:39.439
[SPEAKER_00]: The righteous mind, oh my gosh, if you want to understand why people think the way that how people here in the United States are
29:40.459 --> 30:03.757
[SPEAKER_00]: MAGA or something else or you know whatever oh my god read the right just mind so good anyway he wrote a book called The Anxious Generation which if you're a parent I hope you've read by now and he talks about how once teenagers got smartphones and social media the time they spent with their friends plummeted and it happened and again this happened before the pandemic which is
30:05.362 --> 30:12.706
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he says that this lockdown's barely sped up the decline because Gen Z was already social distancing, right?
30:13.206 --> 30:14.447
[SPEAKER_00]: As soon as they got their phones.
30:15.207 --> 30:25.733
[SPEAKER_00]: And he also noticed that a lot of young people are very afraid to make a phone call, Sherry Turkel talks about this, too, because a call is live and awkward, and they're used to texting.
30:25.973 --> 30:28.515
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, right, we're nothing happens in real time.
30:29.780 --> 30:37.063
[SPEAKER_00]: So, a lot of people just haven't had much practice talking to other people in real time.
30:37.603 --> 30:43.786
[SPEAKER_00]: So, something like asking for a thinner milkshake feels like a much bigger deal than it is.
30:43.946 --> 30:46.347
[SPEAKER_00]: It feels huge, right?
30:46.767 --> 30:54.410
[SPEAKER_00]: The things that I will say to people or the requests I'll make, a lot again, a lot of times folks are like, oh my God, that's crazy, right?
30:55.230 --> 30:55.690
[SPEAKER_00]: Being a nice,
30:57.211 --> 30:57.811
[SPEAKER_00]: Jewish mother.
30:58.432 --> 31:02.174
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're sort of famous for, um, you know, going in a restaurant.
31:02.234 --> 31:05.555
[SPEAKER_00]: If I don't like the table, I'm getting sad at, yeah, I'm going to ask for another table.
31:05.776 --> 31:06.236
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I am.
31:06.796 --> 31:07.256
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I am.
31:07.656 --> 31:11.078
[SPEAKER_00]: Or as we're walking and we pass the table, I do want all ask.
31:11.178 --> 31:12.019
[SPEAKER_00]: Ask nicely.
31:12.039 --> 31:18.922
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't, you know, if I don't get it, if they're like, no, sorry, that was reserved for somebody to go.
31:18.942 --> 31:19.162
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:19.583 --> 31:19.763
[SPEAKER_00]: Like,
31:20.748 --> 31:24.291
[SPEAKER_00]: entitled, I don't feel entitled to that table over somebody else or something else.
31:24.692 --> 31:31.117
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's amazing to me again, my kids like the horror, the horror of doing that.
31:31.257 --> 31:34.821
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, different cultures have different horror around it.
31:34.961 --> 31:39.565
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, Jewish monos, we don't mind this doing it, right?
31:41.066 --> 31:47.209
[SPEAKER_00]: there's something in my culture, clearly it's a stereotype, I think, for a reason because, you know, we'll say something.
31:47.950 --> 31:53.372
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's sort of, right, you go, why?
31:53.693 --> 32:03.458
[SPEAKER_00]: And so culturally male female, obviously, age, there's a lot of things that play into this, but I will tell you that overall,
32:04.418 --> 32:15.332
[SPEAKER_00]: I am the exception to the rule over all, even among people my age, like I've been out obviously with friends my age who aren't, you know, me who will be like, oh, don't ask for another table at me that's so embarrassing.
32:15.893 --> 32:15.993
[SPEAKER_00]: And
32:16.905 --> 32:17.586
[SPEAKER_00]: It's right.
32:17.926 --> 32:19.528
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, why is that embarrassing?
32:19.728 --> 32:21.010
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even imagine why.
32:21.130 --> 32:22.531
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're doing it right now too.
32:22.571 --> 32:25.535
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure there's somebody there's hundreds of thousands of you listening.
32:25.575 --> 32:28.077
[SPEAKER_00]: So somebody right now is listening going, yeah, that's horrible Abby.
32:28.237 --> 32:29.078
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe you do that.
32:29.118 --> 32:30.780
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you're never going to unfollow me now.
32:30.920 --> 32:36.286
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but there's I am telling you, I have been around longer.
32:36.886 --> 32:38.628
[SPEAKER_00]: This used to not be a weird thing.
32:39.622 --> 32:41.023
[SPEAKER_00]: And now it's becoming weird.
32:41.363 --> 32:43.124
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I'm saying things have shifted.
32:43.724 --> 32:50.307
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, then the pandemic hit and we were all told to practice social distancing, which I hated that term right away.
32:50.667 --> 32:55.010
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanna go on record because I did and I said it at the time because I saw what was happening.
32:55.930 --> 33:01.858
[SPEAKER_00]: And definitely early on, and I'll link to it in the show notes because I don't remember who, but in the blog.
33:01.878 --> 33:05.003
[SPEAKER_00]: But one, I think it came out of the World Health Organization.
33:05.083 --> 33:09.949
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a top health official who was leading the global response, you know.
33:11.608 --> 33:22.811
[SPEAKER_00]: They said, we're switching to the phrase physical distancing on purpose, because staying physically apart didn't mean we had to disconnect socially from the, you know, from people, right?
33:23.391 --> 33:28.472
[SPEAKER_00]: The, because they saw it also the problem, but social distancing sadly is the phrase at stuck.
33:28.613 --> 33:34.234
[SPEAKER_00]: And I am clearly, I know that that slip of the tongue did real damage, it's very clear to me.
33:34.454 --> 33:37.235
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, there is only a little research yet on this.
33:38.195 --> 33:43.217
[SPEAKER_00]: because for a couple of years we were told that being social was dangerous.
33:43.577 --> 33:44.917
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, think of that.
33:45.137 --> 33:46.718
[SPEAKER_00]: Trust me, that got in.
33:47.278 --> 33:49.739
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't tell me like, oh, no, but we knew what it meant, Abby.
33:49.879 --> 33:51.520
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, nope.
33:51.640 --> 33:53.800
[SPEAKER_00]: You think your conscious mind runs the show.
33:53.840 --> 33:54.361
[SPEAKER_00]: It does not.
33:54.421 --> 34:01.743
[SPEAKER_00]: If you've learned nothing on this podcast, you've learned that your subconscious runs the show and you were told to social distance.
34:02.123 --> 34:03.764
[SPEAKER_00]: That's being social was dangerous.
34:04.304 --> 34:04.705
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
34:05.305 --> 34:15.035
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, as, you know, turkle will point this out many of these people pointed out, we're opting for even less risk by talking directly to machines.
34:16.477 --> 34:37.900
[SPEAKER_00]: Every one of those changes made it a little easier to skip the slightly awkward moment, you know, the little hesitations and every skipped moment is like a repetition you didn't get it's a rep you didn't get right so most people have no idea how much direct communication they avoid in a normal week so.
34:41.547 --> 34:45.369
[SPEAKER_00]: So think, yeah, so let me give you some examples.
34:45.729 --> 34:45.969
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
34:46.249 --> 34:47.630
[SPEAKER_00]: So think of these.
34:47.850 --> 34:48.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me, let me do that.
34:49.051 --> 34:49.731
[SPEAKER_00]: Look what I'm going to do.
34:49.831 --> 34:50.512
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how much I love you.
34:50.532 --> 34:51.692
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you some examples.
34:51.712 --> 35:02.318
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to think of the top by Think of how many of these you skip or you put off or you hand off to a text like asking for a thinner milkshake right again that you just wouldn't even ask.
35:02.958 --> 35:04.859
[SPEAKER_00]: or sending back food if it comes out wrong.
35:04.979 --> 35:13.324
[SPEAKER_00]: By the way, I was in the restaurant business for many years and I will tell you, do not send food back with an attitude that will not get you do not want to eat that food after.
35:13.444 --> 35:23.229
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I have definitely, you know, been very gracious, I've even always let them know like, hey, I used to work in restaurants because that way, I'm forecasting that I'm going to tip them well.
35:24.229 --> 35:28.712
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so sorry, and this is really, you know, I asked for medium and this is
35:29.492 --> 35:30.172
[SPEAKER_00]: this is hammered.
35:30.252 --> 35:31.853
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, could you please have this read done?
35:32.173 --> 35:36.195
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I always ask nicely and always take care of my people, but there you go.
35:36.976 --> 35:37.716
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, how about this?
35:37.736 --> 35:44.240
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you avoided or not done or did it in a text or some other way, canceling something like a haircut appointment?
35:44.440 --> 35:53.464
[SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy, clients have had who refused it, cancel like a eyebrow appointment or something just never showed and then never went back to that place and found a new place because they couldn't
35:55.667 --> 36:00.771
[SPEAKER_00]: Telling a friend you can't make it to her party, instead of just not showing up.
36:00.791 --> 36:04.394
[SPEAKER_00]: So you ghost, instead of telling them, like, listen, I can't make it on Friday.
36:05.495 --> 36:11.940
[SPEAKER_00]: Calling the doctor's office with a question, letting a call go to voicemail, and then texting what's up?
36:13.482 --> 36:14.523
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, yep.
36:15.989 --> 36:18.212
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, ask a neighbor turned down the music.
36:18.312 --> 36:26.580
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's a neighbor who has, you know, it's after midnight or whatever and it's still loud or there, you know, I have some neighbors who found who took up the drums.
36:26.720 --> 36:27.561
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh my gosh.
36:28.102 --> 36:28.502
[SPEAKER_00]: And I did.
36:28.522 --> 36:29.623
[SPEAKER_00]: I went and knocked on the door.
36:30.064 --> 36:30.965
[SPEAKER_00]: I brought cookies.
36:31.425 --> 36:31.766
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
36:32.226 --> 36:33.748
[SPEAKER_00]: My salted omelette cookies, which are the bomb.
36:34.603 --> 36:40.387
[SPEAKER_00]: I went up because I don't know the neighbor really well and I went over to their home and I did.
36:40.547 --> 36:47.892
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, hey, is this where the drumming is coming from at night and it was the woman's boyfriend.
36:48.453 --> 36:57.179
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said, I totally, I love music, I name my daughter, McCartney, and you know, I have to get up, I get up at like four in the morning, could you?
36:57.279 --> 36:57.939
[SPEAKER_00]: And we had a talk.
36:58.059 --> 36:59.020
[SPEAKER_00]: And I brought the cookies.
36:59.120 --> 37:01.322
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, I want to be a wonderful loving neighbor.
37:02.122 --> 37:04.143
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there any way, you know, can we talk about it?
37:04.203 --> 37:05.924
[SPEAKER_00]: Like how that could happen and blah, blah, blah.
37:06.024 --> 37:07.764
[SPEAKER_00]: We had a lovely conversation she invited me in.
37:07.784 --> 37:08.465
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very nice.
37:08.705 --> 37:09.585
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what to say.
37:10.005 --> 37:10.865
[SPEAKER_00]: It can go well.
37:12.646 --> 37:18.148
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you haven't returned something to a store or asked for a refund when you've been charged twice.
37:18.408 --> 37:19.329
[SPEAKER_00]: I have had people.
37:19.389 --> 37:20.549
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't tell you have so many
37:25.695 --> 37:27.115
[SPEAKER_00]: Questioning something on a bill.
37:27.235 --> 37:27.976
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a bill comes.
37:27.996 --> 37:30.356
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a question about it telling your hairstylist.
37:30.376 --> 37:32.417
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't like the cut while you're still in the chair.
37:34.917 --> 37:38.038
[SPEAKER_00]: Asking someone to repeat their name, maybe after you forgotten it.
37:38.238 --> 37:39.818
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had that happen.
37:39.998 --> 37:40.278
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
37:42.839 --> 37:46.380
[SPEAKER_00]: Asking your roommate or your partner to do the dishes.
37:46.420 --> 37:47.320
[SPEAKER_00]: They said they would do.
37:48.480 --> 37:52.441
[SPEAKER_00]: Saying no thanks to a salesperson or the person asking for a donation.
37:54.596 --> 37:59.239
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, oh, oh, I know the most obvious, telling a date you're not interested instead of ghosting.
38:00.920 --> 38:02.681
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the kindest thing you can do.
38:02.942 --> 38:05.683
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, I didn't, you know, and right?
38:06.004 --> 38:10.186
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, you can do that one in a text if you've whatever, but at least do it.
38:10.426 --> 38:11.727
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't avoid it completely.
38:12.268 --> 38:13.188
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't just ghost.
38:13.528 --> 38:15.250
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, I didn't feel a spark.
38:15.330 --> 38:16.290
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just letting you know.
38:16.310 --> 38:18.332
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're wonderful.
38:18.352 --> 38:19.732
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope everything goes wonderfully for you.
38:19.893 --> 38:20.153
[SPEAKER_00]: Done.
38:21.106 --> 38:21.506
[SPEAKER_00]: You're done.
38:22.367 --> 38:29.513
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that hard, but ghosting is a thing because of how avoidant we are with anything that's remotely uncomfortable.
38:29.713 --> 38:32.476
[SPEAKER_00]: The idea that that has to be a conflict, no it doesn't.
38:32.596 --> 38:34.157
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to get involved in any conflict.
38:34.698 --> 38:40.923
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's true, they could text back and go, well, if you and I hit you and you're jerk and whatever, I don't know them block their number and you're done.
38:40.943 --> 38:42.945
[SPEAKER_00]: That you did the right thing.
38:43.345 --> 38:44.626
[SPEAKER_00]: This is about you, not them.
38:45.107 --> 38:46.108
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's where you're
38:46.788 --> 38:47.548
[SPEAKER_00]: tied up in.
38:47.628 --> 38:58.953
[SPEAKER_00]: You're so worried about what other people think and feel and how they're going to act and react and whatever that you just do, you know, in Buddhism, we talk about like next right action.
38:59.213 --> 39:00.453
[SPEAKER_00]: Just take your next right action.
39:00.473 --> 39:01.954
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all you have to worry about.
39:02.434 --> 39:14.219
[SPEAKER_00]: And if any of those that I just mentioned, feel like a big deal, it's because almost nothing around you has asked you to practice these skills of direct communication because that's all all that was.
39:15.462 --> 39:27.740
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do want to talk about what avoiding communication is costing you because it is, avoiding all these opportunities for direct communication, I'm telling you it costs you so much, so so much.
39:28.480 --> 39:35.142
[SPEAKER_00]: First and foremost, it costs you your self-esteem because you're letting fear and avoidance rule.
39:35.322 --> 39:37.742
[SPEAKER_00]: And that never adds up to health.
39:37.782 --> 39:40.223
[SPEAKER_00]: These teams, you know you feel crappy when you avoid.
39:40.283 --> 39:41.243
[SPEAKER_00]: You know you do.
39:41.763 --> 39:55.347
[SPEAKER_00]: You are uncomfortable and it doubt every single time, which is why you're then in your phone, getting yourself distracted because you can't think about, oh my gosh, that person that I didn't text back or whatever.
39:56.307 --> 40:08.810
[SPEAKER_00]: it costs you closeness because the hurts you, if you never, those hurts you never mention, they turn into resentments and you never find out what the people you love are feeling.
40:08.890 --> 40:19.012
[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, every time you swallow that that comment, you know, that comment stung, you know, every time you don't say that you bite your tongue of that really that comment really hurt me,
40:22.293 --> 40:28.278
[SPEAKER_00]: you make a little deposit in a resentment account and the other person has no idea the account even exists.
40:29.039 --> 40:33.423
[SPEAKER_00]: And then one day you know it, it all comes pouring out over something tiny.
40:33.843 --> 40:43.871
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you've got a real conflict on your hands that started as one sentence that you just never said because you were afraid.
40:45.493 --> 40:45.693
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:47.101 --> 41:04.247
[SPEAKER_00]: If you have ever had a knockdown drag out about the peanut butter left in the jelly jar, you know, or whatever that is, it's something so inconsequential about how the bed was made or something, it's because that resentment account was very full and tipped over.
41:04.907 --> 41:08.088
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm telling you, it's because all this direct communication hasn't happened.
41:08.488 --> 41:11.871
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love it because people say, well, I didn't want to say anything because they want to hurt their feelings.
41:12.532 --> 41:17.196
[SPEAKER_00]: So now you're just resentful and talking shit about them and feeling anxious and upset.
41:17.456 --> 41:18.457
[SPEAKER_00]: You think, what?
41:19.358 --> 41:19.639
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
41:20.119 --> 41:21.000
[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't about them.
41:21.020 --> 41:21.700
[SPEAKER_00]: This is about you.
41:23.402 --> 41:24.483
[SPEAKER_00]: We hurt their feelings.
41:24.903 --> 41:26.245
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you're acting crappy to them.
41:26.365 --> 41:28.807
[SPEAKER_00]: Or you're being passive aggressive or something else, which I'll talk about.
41:30.517 --> 41:33.058
[SPEAKER_00]: And let me say this, it might also cost you some of your health.
41:33.178 --> 41:36.719
[SPEAKER_00]: There is research on social connection and how long you live.
41:36.879 --> 41:39.680
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is startling, startling.
41:41.181 --> 41:44.422
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, people with stronger social relationships.
41:44.602 --> 41:51.865
[SPEAKER_00]: So meaning they were more connected to the people in their lives had 50% better odds of still being alive.
41:52.975 --> 41:57.377
[SPEAKER_00]: by the ends of the studies that were done, then people would weaker relationships.
41:57.517 --> 42:01.219
[SPEAKER_00]: 50% by the time they got to the end, they were 50% more of them were alive.
42:01.679 --> 42:05.942
[SPEAKER_00]: And those studies followed people for about seven and a half years on average.
42:05.982 --> 42:09.103
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of them were 15 years that I looked at, some of them were fine, amazing.
42:09.643 --> 42:19.068
[SPEAKER_00]: So that puts your relationships, the closeness, the quality of your relationships, in the same league as smoking and drinking, when it comes to how long you live,
42:22.949 --> 42:25.410
[SPEAKER_00]: how long you live, but also how what they call it.
42:25.810 --> 42:26.911
[SPEAKER_00]: Satisfied in your life you are.
42:27.791 --> 42:32.193
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's ahead of just ahead of being inactive or obese.
42:34.414 --> 42:36.455
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be fat if I talk to other people, yes you can.
42:37.356 --> 42:40.577
[SPEAKER_00]: In other words, your people are a health habit.
42:41.978 --> 42:46.020
[SPEAKER_00]: Right up there with working out, meditating, eating well, eating healthy food, whatever.
42:47.369 --> 42:49.109
[SPEAKER_00]: And it isn't, I want to say this too.
42:49.149 --> 42:58.952
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not only your closest relationships, because I looked at that too, research shows that for people who would, what was it?
42:59.092 --> 43:00.252
[SPEAKER_00]: They had just retired.
43:00.372 --> 43:01.052
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I looked at.
43:01.432 --> 43:03.733
[SPEAKER_00]: So they did research with people who had just retired.
43:04.253 --> 43:07.994
[SPEAKER_00]: And they found that belonging to social groups, with so few retired.
43:08.034 --> 43:09.114
[SPEAKER_00]: And you belong to social groups.
43:09.134 --> 43:12.795
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, like a book club or a church group or 12 steps or something like that.
43:14.378 --> 43:19.340
[SPEAKER_00]: that had an effect on their risk of dying that was comparable to physical exercising.
43:19.580 --> 43:21.380
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I can sit on the couch eating Oreos.
43:21.520 --> 43:22.640
[SPEAKER_00]: You know how happy that makes me.
43:23.041 --> 43:27.062
[SPEAKER_00]: I just have to go out there and be involved in groups.
43:27.842 --> 43:40.046
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I tell you to join the book club, I'm not only being your bossy Jewish mother, which is a role you know I enjoy, I'm giving you health advice that can literally change how long you live and how well you live.
43:41.898 --> 43:44.499
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, how can you tell if something is a conflict?
43:44.599 --> 43:47.340
[SPEAKER_00]: You can tell by using a little something I created.
43:48.021 --> 43:48.821
[SPEAKER_00]: I created this for you.
43:48.881 --> 43:50.762
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm calling it the conflict ladder.
43:50.822 --> 43:54.063
[SPEAKER_00]: I realize you need something that you can sort of judge it on.
43:54.623 --> 44:01.686
[SPEAKER_00]: It's six rungs going from one, which isn't conflict at all, and should be pretty easy piece of communication on your end.
44:02.206 --> 44:05.688
[SPEAKER_00]: All the way up to six, which is like a full-out-wheel true conflict.
44:05.888 --> 44:16.959
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have I made a little table and that will be on the blog on the website and they'll definitely be something in the free download and the therapy to go bundle, but I'll talk about all that at the end.
44:17.828 --> 44:36.039
[SPEAKER_00]: So wrong one, I want you to think of as a request, you know, when you're asking for something and nobody has to give up anything they care about you know that's the thinner milkshake right asking someone to move their bag off a seat next to you asking a coworker to reset an email asking your partner to grab milk on the way home calling to cancel a haircut.
44:37.377 --> 44:40.319
[SPEAKER_00]: At the most, the other person is mildly in convenience for a minute, right?
44:40.479 --> 44:41.120
[SPEAKER_00]: That's run one.
44:41.260 --> 44:42.641
[SPEAKER_00]: Run two is a preference.
44:42.761 --> 44:46.063
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when there's a choice to make and you say what you'd rather have.
44:46.903 --> 44:48.825
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'd rather have Thai food tonight.
44:49.045 --> 44:50.346
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we sit by the window?
44:50.906 --> 44:52.347
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd prefer the earlier flight.
44:52.567 --> 44:58.771
[SPEAKER_00]: The other person gets to have a preference two, and but nobody's need is like on the line, okay?
44:59.832 --> 45:12.855
[SPEAKER_00]: Wrong three is disclosure and that's when you tell someone how you feel or that's something bothered you that you know Hey, that comment at dinner stung I felt left out when you made Plant when you all made plans without me.
45:13.555 --> 45:17.175
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm nervous about this trip Telling a friend you miss them.
45:17.395 --> 45:18.856
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's information.
45:19.076 --> 45:25.017
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not an accusation It gives the other person a chance to know you better to to know more about you
45:26.473 --> 45:28.534
[SPEAKER_00]: Ring four, wrong four, ring four.
45:28.714 --> 45:30.815
[SPEAKER_00]: Wrong four is a disagreement.
45:30.935 --> 45:33.236
[SPEAKER_00]: You can leave unresolved, though.
45:33.917 --> 45:45.142
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you see something differently, but you can both keep your view, you know, you and your mom, you and your best friend, you and your partner, you know, whether that movie was any good, right?
45:45.783 --> 45:47.684
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can disagree on that.
45:47.844 --> 45:50.045
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether your brother's new girlfriend is keeper,
45:51.558 --> 46:01.024
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, how you each remember a family vacation from 20 years ago, you can each say your piece of walk away, still seeing it differently, nothing has to change, okay?
46:01.384 --> 46:06.347
[SPEAKER_00]: So those first four wrongs of the latter are all communication you want to be comfortable with.
46:07.108 --> 46:09.549
[SPEAKER_00]: These all call for direct communication.
46:09.630 --> 46:16.774
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you've been avoiding any of those situations, it is time to put on your big girl, big boy pants and practice practice practice practice.
46:16.874 --> 46:18.135
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying you shouldn't sit up.
46:19.316 --> 46:20.818
[SPEAKER_00]: tall for these next two rungs.
46:20.878 --> 46:34.031
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to talk about, I'm saying that if you avoid these types of interactions, these rungs are the only two that I'm about to say that I would deem conflict avoidance.
46:34.152 --> 46:41.679
[SPEAKER_00]: So all the rest of that is that your tolerance for interaction has gotten way too low.
46:42.663 --> 46:43.583
[SPEAKER_00]: that's what that is.
46:44.264 --> 46:47.125
[SPEAKER_00]: So, run five is a clash.
46:47.205 --> 46:53.969
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when meeting one person's needs means the other person's needs won't get met as things stand as they are.
46:54.509 --> 47:02.813
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, again, one of you wanting to move closer to family and the other one wanting to stay put, deciding whose family you're spending the holidays with, right?
47:02.873 --> 47:04.854
[SPEAKER_00]: Something like that, whether to have another kid,
47:05.574 --> 47:08.536
[SPEAKER_00]: or your mom wanting you to call every day and you don't want to.
47:08.977 --> 47:13.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody's need is on the line, so this is where real problem solving comes in.
47:14.481 --> 47:16.342
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, wrong six is a fight.
47:16.542 --> 47:22.387
[SPEAKER_00]: It's when a clash has escalated into race voices, shutting down threats to the relationship.
47:23.928 --> 47:39.458
[SPEAKER_00]: the same blow up on repeat, that's, you know, the holiday argument that explodes every year, the money fight that goes in circles, the talk about set, not enough for too much sex in the relationship or whatever, the silent treatment that lasts for days.
47:39.959 --> 47:45.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And just so we're clear, if you're ever unsafe with someone, this latter isn't the tool.
47:45.563 --> 47:46.843
[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to reach out for support.
47:46.903 --> 47:47.684
[SPEAKER_00]: I do want to say that.
47:47.744 --> 47:51.427
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's, that's, I'm assuming that's not why you're listening.
47:52.147 --> 48:06.014
[SPEAKER_00]: So no matter how big something feels in your body, your feelings aren't or not a reliable guide to which wrong you're on, because as I said, feelings are valid, but that doesn't mean they're accurate.
48:06.474 --> 48:15.878
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're asking for a thinner milkshake feels like a huge deal, it's because this is a new skill you haven't practiced much and new skills feel uncomfortable at first.
48:15.918 --> 48:16.779
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how it works.
48:17.699 --> 48:20.941
[SPEAKER_00]: So first you got to get yourself physically regulated.
48:21.121 --> 48:23.683
[SPEAKER_00]: You know double inhale what's my favorite double inhale.
48:24.544 --> 48:37.533
[SPEAKER_00]: Breathe in take one deep breath in through your nose right at the top of that breath take a second like kind of quick sip of air and then let it all go and one long slow exhale through your mouth do that two or three times.
48:38.498 --> 48:39.799
[SPEAKER_00]: do that.
48:39.899 --> 48:46.262
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you should be starting more of a baseline and a brain that's not hijacked, doing that.
48:46.302 --> 48:49.523
[SPEAKER_00]: Run your wrists under cold water or something cold in the back of your neck, that kind of thing.
48:50.184 --> 48:54.346
[SPEAKER_00]: Then check what you're telling yourself because you feel the way you think.
48:54.646 --> 49:00.649
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, you know, I've talked about Albert Ellis before on the podcast, you know, rational motive therapy, RIT.
49:01.229 --> 49:03.550
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not what happens that makes you feel a certain way.
49:03.630 --> 49:06.432
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what you tell yourself about what happened.
49:06.972 --> 49:11.574
[SPEAKER_00]: the story you're telling yourself is why you feel a certain way about something or someone.
49:11.994 --> 49:18.456
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're thinking she's going to think of a terrible person, of course, of course you're going to feel like you're about to start a fight.
49:19.177 --> 49:24.239
[SPEAKER_00]: So ask yourself, you know, who said so, what else could be true, right?
49:24.919 --> 49:33.742
[SPEAKER_00]: Save yourself, um, she'll probably just say sure no problem or even if she does get upset, that's about her not me and I can handle that, something like that, right?
49:36.303 --> 49:40.226
[SPEAKER_00]: which wrong it's on by asking yourself a few questions?
49:40.366 --> 49:42.248
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really to me what you want to do.
49:43.428 --> 49:47.451
[SPEAKER_00]: So you want to ask yourself am I telling them something or do we have to decide something?
49:47.491 --> 49:48.712
[SPEAKER_00]: We're one of us loses out.
49:48.772 --> 49:49.713
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really the big one.
49:50.574 --> 49:55.057
[SPEAKER_00]: If someone unable to get what they need or are they just a little annoyed?
49:56.338 --> 50:01.682
[SPEAKER_00]: Have they shown me it's a problem or am I predicting that they think it's a problem or that they will?
50:03.307 --> 50:06.869
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have to resolve this at all, or can we both keep our own view?
50:08.910 --> 50:13.192
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of my favorites to ask is would a stranger watching think this was a fight?
50:14.292 --> 50:22.796
[SPEAKER_00]: When something is a true, run five clash, that's when you move from the line to the triangle.
50:22.856 --> 50:28.719
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've talked about this type of problem solving many times before, and it applies directly here.
50:29.279 --> 50:41.084
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, on a line, you're at one end, the other person is at the other, and you are bargaining back and forth across that gap until somebody walks away, usually feeling like they lost, right?
50:41.404 --> 50:54.129
[SPEAKER_00]: We know from a lot of the research that when people negotiate both sides think they gave up more than the other, again, you're negotiating along a just picture straight line with you're at one end there at the other, you're negotiating along that line.
50:54.649 --> 50:55.590
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you think
50:56.190 --> 50:59.912
[SPEAKER_00]: of problem solving, like a triangle instead of a line.
51:00.392 --> 51:04.274
[SPEAKER_00]: The two of you are at the bottom corners, right?
51:04.614 --> 51:12.157
[SPEAKER_00]: You're still on that line, you're each at a bump, but now you're at a bottom corner, and you're both looking up at the problem together, the top of the triangle.
51:12.177 --> 51:14.198
[SPEAKER_00]: You're both looking up, not at each other.
51:15.644 --> 51:21.765
[SPEAKER_00]: And the question shifts from which one of us gives in to how do we solve this together?
51:22.325 --> 51:24.886
[SPEAKER_00]: To get to the top of that triangle, right?
51:25.706 --> 51:26.806
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we need to do?
51:27.187 --> 51:31.828
[SPEAKER_00]: And we hope if you've been listening, you know, you better know.
51:32.248 --> 51:37.889
[SPEAKER_00]: You better be able to answer this right now without me telling you, if you've been listening for a while, if you're new though, I'll give you the answer.
51:38.469 --> 51:42.030
[SPEAKER_00]: It's you have to use collaborative questions, right?
51:42.710 --> 51:47.234
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is your free download for today, by the way, which I'll talk about more in a minute, but I have a list of them for you.
51:47.274 --> 51:53.198
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's something like, you know, if we could wave a magic wand, solve this in a way we're both happy with, what would that look like?
51:53.699 --> 51:57.982
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is there a way we can combine both of our ideas into something even better?
51:58.042 --> 51:59.924
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do we do that, right?
52:00.124 --> 52:01.044
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that happen?
52:01.565 --> 52:02.826
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me more about that.
52:02.966 --> 52:05.568
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you, you know, can you give me more information?
52:05.608 --> 52:07.289
[SPEAKER_00]: So I understand how you're thinking better.
52:07.429 --> 52:11.252
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so that the two of you can find some new ground,
52:12.233 --> 52:14.894
[SPEAKER_00]: again, kind of thinking up, not across.
52:15.494 --> 52:21.457
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I have a list of collaborative questions to help you problem solve like a triangle.
52:21.477 --> 52:24.018
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the free download.
52:24.038 --> 52:30.120
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can get that again below the video or you can get that on the website, go to this episode, go to this blog post.
52:31.281 --> 52:33.403
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what is all this boiled down to?
52:33.623 --> 52:38.046
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of what you've been calling conflict is plain all communication.
52:38.407 --> 52:40.788
[SPEAKER_00]: And communication is a skill you can practice.
52:41.349 --> 52:49.996
[SPEAKER_00]: What you need to do is raise your tolerance for discomfort, raise your tolerance for directness, for disapproval.
52:50.756 --> 52:55.620
[SPEAKER_00]: So what should be normal communication feels normal?
52:57.081 --> 52:59.363
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's really what you wanna do.
53:04.153 --> 53:05.333
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you also.
53:05.373 --> 53:06.754
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to tell you right now, look at me.
53:07.014 --> 53:07.954
[SPEAKER_00]: You can end right now.
53:08.714 --> 53:18.178
[SPEAKER_00]: You can end up, but I'm going to give you five steps to raise your tolerance for discomfort, directness and disapproval, but you don't even need like you already kind of have it, look with everything I just gave you.
53:19.398 --> 53:25.860
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you raised your tolerance the way you build any other skill right with small regular practice that gets a little harder as you go.
53:26.100 --> 53:29.925
[SPEAKER_00]: and I'm just going to give you five steps to start easy and build on each other.
53:30.025 --> 53:37.115
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, I feel like I've already given you everything, but because I'm me and I'm crazy and I always want to give you some extra steps or some more.
53:37.695 --> 53:38.156
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's more.
53:39.718 --> 53:42.922
[SPEAKER_00]: Step one is you can run, I call it the milk shake test, right?
53:43.603 --> 53:51.785
[SPEAKER_00]: Biting your tongue is what happens when something matters to you and you say nothing, you know, you tell the server it's fine when it isn't you drink the milkshake You can barely get through the straw.
53:52.165 --> 53:55.386
[SPEAKER_00]: You let the comments slide and then you stew about it for the rest of the night.
53:55.766 --> 53:56.847
[SPEAKER_00]: So the milkshake test.
53:56.907 --> 53:59.527
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're calling it is what you do in that moment instead, right?
53:59.668 --> 54:04.269
[SPEAKER_00]: You start by noticing the moment because the cues are pretty easy to spot.
54:05.229 --> 54:11.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Once you know them, like rehearsing a simple sentence in your head or hearing yourself say, you know, never mind, it's no big deal or something.
54:12.513 --> 54:23.360
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, do a little double inhale, so your body comes down a notch, check what you're telling yourself because if you're thought as she's going to think on rude, ask who sets up and what else could be true?
54:23.540 --> 54:24.901
[SPEAKER_00]: And then figure out which is wrong.
54:25.061 --> 54:27.002
[SPEAKER_00]: It's on by asking that main question.
54:27.022 --> 54:31.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I telling them something or do we have to decide something where one of us loses out?
54:32.425 --> 54:35.427
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I really just afraid that this person will be mad at me or not like me?
54:35.467 --> 54:37.468
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the only reason I'm not saying anything right now?
54:38.088 --> 54:38.389
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
54:39.269 --> 54:44.132
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's, if it's so a 1, 2, 3 or 4, it's, you know, on the wrong, right?
54:44.192 --> 54:45.113
[SPEAKER_00]: It's communication.
54:45.173 --> 54:47.634
[SPEAKER_00]: So say it and keep it short and play in one sentence.
54:47.834 --> 54:48.655
[SPEAKER_00]: No apology.
54:50.036 --> 54:51.156
[SPEAKER_00]: No long explanation.
54:52.197 --> 54:54.098
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just could you think this out a little?
54:55.299 --> 54:56.820
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd rather do the earlier time.
54:58.035 --> 55:06.302
[SPEAKER_00]: Now if it's a five, it's a real clash, don't blur it down that moment, set it time to talk and, you know, and then take it to the triangle right.
55:08.030 --> 55:14.113
[SPEAKER_00]: And afterward, take like 10 seconds to compare what you predicted with what actually happened.
55:14.213 --> 55:18.114
[SPEAKER_00]: Did she realize or did she say sure no problem like happened with me?
55:18.615 --> 55:26.198
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time the answer is it went fine, you're collecting proof that your forecast was way off, which is exactly what the research on asking help found.
55:26.218 --> 55:27.138
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, we talked about it.
55:27.518 --> 55:34.241
[SPEAKER_00]: People expect a lot more knows, and they get, that proof is what's gonna make the next time you do it easier.
55:34.301 --> 55:35.822
[SPEAKER_00]: So I do think that's important.
55:36.673 --> 55:38.874
[SPEAKER_00]: Step two is do one discomfort rep a day.
55:39.495 --> 55:52.902
[SPEAKER_00]: Every day, do one small slightly uncomfortable piece of direct communication on purpose, like setting back the wrong order or canceling an appointment, asking a clarifying question in a meeting, telling your friend I'd prefer the earlier time.
55:53.582 --> 56:00.123
[SPEAKER_00]: Keith, I definitely keep those things tiny at first because the goal, the goal is the rep, the goal is doing it and not the outcome.
56:00.643 --> 56:06.684
[SPEAKER_00]: And the discomfort you feel is just what practice feels like when a skill has been sitting on the shelf for so long, right?
56:06.964 --> 56:13.706
[SPEAKER_00]: If it trusts me, if you start to, if you want to run a marathon and you start to jog and you never jog before and you jog today, it would hurt a little bit.
56:14.266 --> 56:15.266
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little uncomfortable.
56:15.646 --> 56:16.406
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do too much.
56:16.906 --> 56:17.666
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll be okay.
56:18.687 --> 56:20.127
[SPEAKER_00]: I promise to shrink the more you do it.
56:20.847 --> 56:23.208
[SPEAKER_00]: Step three is say it's small and soon.
56:23.348 --> 56:28.749
[SPEAKER_00]: When someone hurts your feelings, tell them, while it's still small, ideally within a day or two.
56:29.449 --> 56:35.310
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I have the I feel formula for this, I feel when you and I need, right?
56:36.171 --> 56:39.211
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel hurt when you make weekend plans without asking me.
56:40.412 --> 56:42.312
[SPEAKER_00]: And I need you to check with me first.
56:42.812 --> 56:45.473
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to be, remember, a real feeling after I feel,
56:51.374 --> 56:58.418
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have to have real feeling and keep the when you part brief and specific, don't list every annoying thing they've ever done.
56:59.618 --> 57:02.459
[SPEAKER_00]: And I will say, so I feel when you, and you don't always know what you need.
57:02.539 --> 57:05.501
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes I don't know what I need, and I just leave that part off.
57:06.488 --> 57:11.232
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, right, and if they come back to you with something nasty or an argument, just stick to it.
57:11.632 --> 57:16.897
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, uh, repeat, I feel this when you and I need just stay with it.
57:17.317 --> 57:27.365
[SPEAKER_00]: The longer you wait for any of this, the bigger it gets and what could have been a wrong three sentence turns into a wrong six fight a few months down the road.
57:27.385 --> 57:28.446
[SPEAKER_00]: You already know this is true.
57:28.566 --> 57:30.288
[SPEAKER_00]: So take a listen.
57:31.177 --> 57:39.781
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, step four, ask the question you're scared of, ask the people you love something like, how are we doing or what do you think, what did you think when I said that?
57:40.421 --> 57:43.562
[SPEAKER_00]: And then sit there and listen to the answer without defending yourself.
57:43.762 --> 57:46.063
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's where my declarative questions come in.
57:46.163 --> 57:51.986
[SPEAKER_00]: And the big rule is to ask a question instead of jumping in with suggestions, advice or criticism, right?
57:52.046 --> 57:54.467
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, don't sack your relationships SAC.
57:54.847 --> 57:56.908
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't offer suggestions, give advice or criticize.
57:57.528 --> 58:13.673
[SPEAKER_00]: because questions invite a few English conversation, a conversation, and that's where the close this is hearing someone's honest answer might be uncomfortable, but you need to hear it and sitting through it is like the rep, you know what I mean?
58:13.693 --> 58:15.333
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how you get there.
58:15.353 --> 58:15.453
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it
58:19.142 --> 58:20.083
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it is a making sense.
58:20.123 --> 58:20.323
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
58:20.343 --> 58:34.174
[SPEAKER_00]: And then step five is get back in the room join something that meets in person on a regular basis a book club again, you know, 12 step meeting if that works for you hiking group acquire a volunteer shift.
58:34.795 --> 58:44.363
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care whatever light you up, whatever light you up groups give a, they really give you a steady supply of low stakes reps.
58:46.421 --> 58:50.263
[SPEAKER_00]: And remember, though, they'll keep you healthy and you'll live longer, right?
58:51.144 --> 58:51.404
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
58:51.844 --> 58:53.846
[SPEAKER_00]: You're built to be another people's company.
58:53.946 --> 59:00.090
[SPEAKER_00]: And the more time you spend there, the less every little ask feels like this conflict or a fight.
59:01.050 --> 59:01.310
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
59:01.871 --> 59:06.814
[SPEAKER_00]: So that next time you catch yourself biting your tongue, I want you to ask yourself really think about it.
59:06.874 --> 59:07.434
[SPEAKER_00]: What wrong?
59:08.154 --> 59:10.376
[SPEAKER_00]: What wrong am I on on the conflict ladder?
59:10.456 --> 59:14.498
[SPEAKER_00]: Because most of what you've avoiding, been avoiding, is one sentence.
59:15.079 --> 59:17.440
[SPEAKER_00]: And sentences get easier with practice.
59:17.620 --> 59:19.862
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you'll find a true, it's true.
59:19.942 --> 59:21.283
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you're going to have a true,
59:25.650 --> 59:29.751
[SPEAKER_00]: The fight underneath isn't about the move or the dishes at all, right?
59:29.831 --> 59:34.072
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about who gets to decide, which, you know, then we're getting into power struggles.
59:34.532 --> 59:37.533
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to talk about power struggles actually next week.
59:37.553 --> 59:38.373
[SPEAKER_00]: So get ready for that.
59:38.493 --> 59:42.614
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the meantime, down, free download your list of collaborative questions.
59:42.734 --> 59:51.756
[SPEAKER_00]: And if this is a big deal for you, if you are somebody who has a lot of trouble with this topic, then you might want to get the therapy to go bundle,
59:56.177 --> 01:00:01.040
[SPEAKER_00]: along with the conflict ladder, how to tell what's communication, what's conflict.
01:00:01.540 --> 01:00:07.584
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a milkshake test worksheet to walk one moment through from, you know, like kind of biting your tongue to saying it.
01:00:08.364 --> 01:00:14.548
[SPEAKER_00]: There's something I call the hell backlist, you know, kind of saying it small and soon before it turns into a fight, how to do that.
01:00:15.108 --> 01:00:21.952
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a discomfort rep tracker, so it's kind of two weeks of tracking those direct moments that rebuild the skill.
01:00:22.812 --> 01:00:31.362
[SPEAKER_00]: there's a where I bite my tongue like a map of what you hold back in all your relationships and I have journaling props prompts about how you got this way.
01:00:31.382 --> 01:00:37.429
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot in there's more than usual on this therapy to go bundle because this topic to me is so huge.
01:00:37.649 --> 01:00:39.371
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I know I spend a lot of time today.
01:00:39.411 --> 01:00:40.532
[SPEAKER_00]: This is longer than usual.
01:00:41.193 --> 01:00:42.774
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's that important.
01:00:42.934 --> 01:00:47.715
[SPEAKER_00]: I really hope you listen to all of it or come back and listen, maybe this is a two-part or for you.
01:00:48.515 --> 01:00:59.639
[SPEAKER_00]: And because I want you to feel happy and connected and fulfilled in your life and you can't do it if you're socially isolating all the time and we have to figure that out.
01:00:59.879 --> 01:01:01.300
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm happy to figure it out with you.
01:01:01.620 --> 01:01:03.741
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, I love you so much.
01:01:04.441 --> 01:01:07.182
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being here and we'll talk real soon.
01:01:07.902 --> 01:01:10.223
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for spending time with me today.
01:01:10.563 --> 01:01:15.364
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're loving what you're learning here, come join my one love collective.
01:01:15.524 --> 01:01:16.925
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my private community.
01:01:17.305 --> 01:01:20.065
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll be take these conversations even deeper.
01:01:20.486 --> 01:01:23.146
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll get a ton of bonus content.
01:01:23.506 --> 01:01:33.189
[SPEAKER_00]: Live Q&As with me, guided visualizations, journaling prompts, scripts, and an incredible community of like-minded people.
01:01:36.851 --> 01:01:38.133
[SPEAKER_00]: in all your relationships.
01:01:38.674 --> 01:01:42.761
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all waiting for you at AppieMedKev.com or right on Substack.
01:01:43.242 --> 01:01:44.004
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next week.