WEBVTT
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[SPEAKER_01]: Haiti.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there have been a few times where you've gotten really, really angry with me and you've called me a narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I got to tell you like that like makes me really like, I've shut down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm done at this point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, but I guess I wanted practice what we preach like what what's happening in those moments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm a narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: in the moment, yes, because I'm a hijacked by resentment, because I'm so good at putting everybody's needs before my own, which is not your fault.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But when I see you taking care of yourself in my resentment of me not being able to take care of myself, that's where I go, you're really good at taking care of yourself and that other people, which I define as a narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so yes, in my not best moments, and I get hijacked, I do say that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: believing that your needs are more important than mine.
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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think like that's easier to hear.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can understand what's going on for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I got to be honest with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like when you call me a narcissist, it kind of shuts me down.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so we got an email from a listener talking just about this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What happens if you're in the middle of a conflict and you start throwing out the words like narcissists, you know, attachment style, stonewalling, like what do we do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because the big question is, is does it help our partner understand themselves and us better or does it create even more distance in a complicated moment?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all, and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast, where we talk and process all things, relationships, the good, the bad, the uncomfortable, I am Terracurwin.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my name is EJ Kerwin, and we're going to start off with, I'm going to read an email that we received from a listener, which we appreciate very much if you have any topics or questions you want to take on, go ahead and just hit us up with an email podcast at
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[SPEAKER_01]: but it says, hello, I was wondering if you guys could cover the topic of psychoanalysis of your partner with all the shorts and reels that fly around these days, passing judgment on a partner, their attachment style, clinical diagnoses, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I found both myself and my partner guilty of psychoanalysis of each other, especially during a conflict.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My partner, in particular, likes to throw his analysis into the conversation in real time, which always brings up defensiveness in me, and feeling like he's not actually interested in understanding and connecting with me, he just is using it to be right about me, and it feels very close off in judgmental.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I would love for you to discuss this in which this way in which psychological analysis
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so my first thoughts on this are, our brain loves labels, like this is a clipboard.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My partner's a asshole, narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You have anxious avoid an attachment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the minute that we don't know what's happening or we're feeling uncomfortable, our brain literally wants to label something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we feel like we have control.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna put that out there, like, and a biological level, like, our brain loves
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[SPEAKER_00]: to have a label for something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we're feeling uncomfortable and difficult moments are happening and our nervous systems disperse related, guess what we want to do?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's my partner being a narcissist, of course.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of truth there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we want to name it for what can be positive first, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, the reason that we use like psychological diagnosis or behavioral diagnoses
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[SPEAKER_01]: understand what's happening, you know that they have a function in being like, oh, that's what that is like, you know, like when I maybe became more familiar with the way I shut down, right, that I can be avoidant, right, once I understood, oh, that's what that is, that's avoidant, it's like it's not just defensiveness,
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[SPEAKER_01]: and recognize it for it, and maybe it may be make a change.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But first is when I would call you avoiding, and you weren't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes, and so that's the difference here is, and this is sort of at the heart of the question that this listener is asking is like, how useful is that in a relationship?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how useful is it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: in a time of conflict when specifically you label your partners behavior because like as we mentioned in the intro there've been not a ton of times but a few times that you that you've said you are such a narcissist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And man, that, like, it, that, like, stings, you know.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean to laugh, I'm sorry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was like sometimes I'm just like, I mean, I could look back on it and laugh at it as well because we kind of got through it, but in the moment,
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[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't make me more curious about your experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't help me look at myself more deeply.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What it did was it made me super defensive and it made me sort of like maybe go into that judging place with you of like, she is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is like, it almost made me want to label you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's histrionic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I'm a narcissist, you're fricking a histrionic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They go great together and totally done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I would have loved you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How dare you?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think what we want to do is we want to talk about how it's almost that it creates a bit of a paradox here, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That labeling a partner may be trying to name like a real pattern, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like in this case, you know,
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[SPEAKER_01]: the pattern you're trying to label is it seems like you take care of your needs first.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You don't really consider my needs, but when you label that and specifically you label the partner as something, it's almost like you've decided who I am, that it's not about my behavior at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's about like, you are this, you are narcissists, you are a stone wall.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where attachment injuries come in right from like early childhood, you know, I mean it's like that is like when my needs aren't getting met and I perceive you as to be like,
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[SPEAKER_00]: that early attachment wound that didn't take care of me, it feels so true, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Which is why that individual curiosity for myself, like, why is this such a huge trigger for me?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so and it's like, oh, this is that's great.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So one of like the fundamental shifts that we want couples to take is in times of conflict instead of it looking like I'm pointing my finger at you and this is what you're doing wrong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is how you need to change him is we want people to drop the finger.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Drop the finger literally sometimes and pick up a mirror, right, and we want them to look at themselves And so the process of like when when I label you as something I'm doing the exact opposite.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying like hey, this is this is a you problem You are this thing and you need to stop being this thing, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it pulls us farther apart because what we want
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[SPEAKER_01]: We want to really bring in a tone of curiosity, open-heartedness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: What did I just trigger, help me understand?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to drop my defensiveness.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How can we get better at uncomfortable moments?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I...
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[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of stay stuck.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's a system that stays stuck right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because then you're in this like pursuer, a voider, name-collar, blame-cycle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it could be anything, like you call it the meat grinder, you could put anything into it, right, parenting, intimacy, communication.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if there's this stuck cycle, it's not gonna go anywhere, it's gonna come out looking the same, and people get trapped in this repetitive.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it comes back to this sort of new term that we're working a lot with, which is the courtroom trap, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what happens in the... You do love that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And because what happens in the courtroom,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to label this person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have to prove that you are a thief, you're a murderer, you're these horrible things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not the vibe that we want, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to label you as something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that's wrong, that's bad.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to look at you through the lens of something of someone who deserves my compassion, my love, my understanding.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I say you're whatever, I'll just pick
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[SPEAKER_00]: not useful, obviously, but also not building secure attachment, which is like our main goal for me, you and I, and also for the couples that are, you know, at our counseling practice or in our coaching, like, how do you build secure attachment that like we can be wounded?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can wound me, I can wound you and we can understand
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[SPEAKER_00]: how we did that and then take care of each other and repair that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Versus trying to get you to be something that you're not so I'm less uncomfortable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's actually not going to build secure attachment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to like, it's going to continue to build insecure attachment.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's only meeting one person's needs and it's going to be like a power struggle there too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so like really tie it back from the real quick, what is labeling the other person's behavior, saying they are something, how in particular is that, how specifically is that gonna damage that secure attachment attempt?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when I hear that, it's like, oh, it's just me in the relationship, that's a problem, there's something wrong with me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting, I'm, there's something I'm not getting right if I would just change my behavior and now I feel like I'm putting a box and I'm limited and I'm not enough and now I'm insecure and maybe shame has come out versus let's just say I acted like an asshole and I did and I called you a narcissist and then I'm going to go do my work because I'm going to hold myself accountable for what I'm not my best self but then also like, hey honey what happened for you to like get to that point?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You must be really angry, upset, wounded, what happened, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's so different because you're being curious about my error, big error that I did, my, my, a verbal assault on you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, that's huge.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's huge for the listener, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because what's interesting is when her partner,
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[SPEAKER_01]: is saying she is whatever he says she is she automatically takes it as like oh this is it becomes about her she feels it as an attack becomes defensive and shuts him out but really what's happening is there's something about her behavior or about the dynamic between them that he's really struggling with.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and him labeling it stops her from actually being empathetic and caring and wanting to understand it more.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's actually shooting himself in the foot in that moment by doing it because he's making it seem like she's the problem when really
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[SPEAKER_01]: He's hurting, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's something that he may be trying to do that actually is really important and it's what we do with couples as we try to make the invisible visible, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We try to identify dynamics that are pulling them apart so we can look at them and help them do it differently, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So like for instance,
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[SPEAKER_01]: When somebody, and this is a big one, and this kind of like is a pet peeve for me because I hear it so freaking much these days, is like, he is stonewalling, you're a stonewall, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that automatically,
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just never goes good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It never is like, oh, really?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me change then.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I'm not, you know, underneath it instead of saying, hey, you're stonewalling or you're a stonewaller, it's like, hey, when you go quiet,
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[SPEAKER_01]: when you pull away from me it's really hard like I feel really lonely I feel like we're no longer connected and in a moment like that I really want to still be with you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the, that just, whoo, and that's the change right there, but it takes a lot of work because when that cycle has been set up for people who are calling each other like stone mollers or narcissists, there's usually repair that has to happen on the system itself, so both individuals, but usually it takes up one individual
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[SPEAKER_00]: to get their heels not dug in, to be able to shift it from stonewalling to like, I've got to let you know, I feel so alone in this moment, because it's like, well, the other person's not doing it either.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They just keep being silent.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to say like, yes, that sounds amazing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: be it's really hard, see it actually really works because you're having a voice that's coming from your heart and your experience and if they still want to get defensive to that and still shut down like that's not on you anymore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At least you came out instead of blaming like owning what's happening in your experience and so it can't be manipulated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot more work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's so I'm gonna use like is it okay?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm using the whole histrionic thing I don't think I really ever called you histrionic I don't know just a matter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have a secure attachment now.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can manage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can do so say Terrors having like big emotions, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Which is often and they don't make sense to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, and I don't want to know Yes, and so if I just say like you are being so histrionic
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's like such a shortcut, that's such like a lazy way to go about it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because what I could do in that moment is I could do some self-reflection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I could be like, gosh, like, I just don't know what to do with her emotions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like really overwhelmed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like ineffective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel lost in those moments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what a different thing and but it takes a little more work for me to say that for me to say that for me to be like, hey honey like I just feel like super overwhelmed right now like when you feel things so strongly and I'm just so not like that and so I want to be there for you right now, but I literally don't know how to.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so soothing to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That would be a leap for me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I know, because you know, you would try to fix it and make my anxiety or my big emotions going.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All right, just like be like, and you've said it before.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this is a whole, this is, and see how these compound, this is what you would say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You'd be like, you are a deer in the headlights right now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like because I do like in those moments where you have those big emotions like my eyes get like really big or or this is so interesting or I try not to be a deer the headlights so I kind of like tighten myself and then
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[SPEAKER_01]: I still feel it and then you're like now you got hard eyes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yes, and I'm like no cannot keep your avoidance secrets from me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So so I'm avoiding being the dear and the headlights by trying to stay composed which then in the moment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: right and it's easy again for me to just blame like you are so instead of his dramatic I could say you're so dramatic you're so emotional you're going really sensitive yeah right it must be your period time
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we know it's not that anymore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what I'm saying.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We hear this all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think what we're telling this listener and this couple is I don't know whether slappens, psychoanoletical or pop culture, new psychology terms on your partner.
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[SPEAKER_01]: is going to be helpful, but it's indicating something and the interesting thing is it's not saying that you need to tell your partner what they are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's indicating that you need to tell your partner what you're struggling with about
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[SPEAKER_01]: their behavior.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This behavior.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This behavior triggered me in this way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we just love that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the rain technique, the Tara Brock teaches it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Recognize, allow, investigate, nurture.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're kind of understanding what's happening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're not trying to cut off emotions or the process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're you're understanding it better.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, if you guys don't know the rain technique, I love it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Again, Tara Brock, you can just type in rain on Google.
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[SPEAKER_00]: recognize allow investigate nurture it's going to give you a chance to a understand what's happening but it's also where our cognitive restructuring exercise we have one for couples but if you're listening to this individually and you're like oh I want to I want to know what that is it's so helpful in understanding triggers and our automatic thoughts feelings behaviors and then getting to the underlying negative core beliefs that
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[SPEAKER_00]: are running the show that we actually don't want running the show.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you need that, it's in our relationship or innovation at home manual in the Amazon, but I can also send that over through our Patreon or even email, like a PDF, to kind of give you a structured way of understanding how to understand triggers better so that you have a chance in these moments to change the cycle of what it really is, because I don't think it feels good for either of these people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I also want to offer this couple because often times when we have like a repetitive thing that happened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in this case, this was interesting like we often throw labels at each other and it doesn't and and she's kind of basically saying like I can tell it's not helping.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably going to happen for you again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so what you can do if you if you throw out some term and you see your partner look like they're shutting down, you might want to pause and try a repair attempt here and the repair attempt would look something like look.
19:53.217 --> 20:03.203
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I just analyzed you and what I probably could have done is I could open up and I could tell you about what I'm actually feeling.
20:03.823 --> 20:04.964
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, instead of thinking.
20:05.284 --> 20:06.265
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, love it.
20:06.525 --> 20:08.346
[SPEAKER_01]: And can I try that again?
20:08.366 --> 20:11.928
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the thing that you've told me like so many times over the years is like,
20:12.348 --> 20:18.956
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, if you just say like you were just short or you were kind of mean, you're being a jerk.
20:19.657 --> 20:26.465
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you just say like you did it, and then and then try to make a gear shift, that would mean so much.
20:26.605 --> 20:27.887
[SPEAKER_00]: And it does mean so much.
20:28.328 --> 20:30.210
[SPEAKER_00]: I think for both of us, because I can also be
20:30.590 --> 20:49.487
[SPEAKER_01]: Because what if one of those times, like I can remember, like I was in the bathroom or you came in and you were like giving me the narcissist action and what if you would have paused walked out of the bathroom came back in and if you would have said, you know, I know I called you narcissist but really what it is is just like sometimes I just don't know how to get my needs met.
20:49.884 --> 20:52.187
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I have resentment, and I'm working on that.
20:52.308 --> 20:54.671
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it would be huge as everyone else into that.
20:54.751 --> 21:03.564
[SPEAKER_00]: I would often, I would often, and I would often, and we would often together, and then we would develop our secure attachment that everyone deserves to have.
21:03.965 --> 21:04.265
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
21:05.066 --> 21:27.860
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you, listener, for sending us that email and letting us have this amazing thought provoking experience together on a Friday morning in our podcast studio, always grateful to our listeners out there and again, anything you might want to hear on an episode, we're also going to start doing live episodes, so we're super excited about that, but just reach
21:31.039 --> 21:32.040
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:32.060 --> 21:41.369
[SPEAKER_01]: And we do appreciate it if if you're one of those listeners and there's there's some like crazy percentage like 60% of regular listeners aren't subscribers.
21:42.010 --> 21:54.963
[SPEAKER_01]: If you could take that step, just hit that little button, become a subscriber, whether you're on YouTube, or you're listening on your favorite, you know podcast platform, please subscribe, give us a
21:55.403 --> 22:04.108
[SPEAKER_01]: If you give us a rating, it really means a lot and helping us just get the message out of having a happy, healthy, loving, secure relationship.
22:04.288 --> 22:16.415
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't checked out our relationship for innovation at Home Manual on Amazon, again, all the skills, building curiosity in a whole process, check it out, we love it, it's our passion.
22:16.435 --> 22:18.196
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, thank you so much for listening.
22:18.316 --> 22:20.638
[SPEAKER_00]: As always, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
22:20.658 --> 22:21.078
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.
22:24.597 --> 22:34.533
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just singing on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you have all the fame we need
00:00.211 --> 00:00.631
[SPEAKER_01]: Haiti.
00:00.912 --> 00:01.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello.
00:02.032 --> 00:10.637
[SPEAKER_01]: So there have been a few times where you've gotten really, really angry with me and you've called me a narcissist.
00:10.737 --> 00:11.938
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
00:12.078 --> 00:12.498
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
00:13.098 --> 00:18.902
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I got to tell you like that like makes me really like, I've shut down.
00:18.942 --> 00:21.303
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm done at this point.
00:21.363 --> 00:28.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, but I guess I wanted practice what we preach like what what's happening in those moments.
00:28.167 --> 00:28.387
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
00:30.072 --> 00:31.246
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm a narcissist.
00:32.103 --> 00:41.225
[SPEAKER_00]: in the moment, yes, because I'm a hijacked by resentment, because I'm so good at putting everybody's needs before my own, which is not your fault.
00:41.945 --> 00:54.048
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I see you taking care of yourself in my resentment of me not being able to take care of myself, that's where I go, you're really good at taking care of yourself and that other people, which I define as a narcissist.
00:54.728 --> 00:59.029
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yes, in my not best moments, and I get hijacked, I do say that.
01:01.910 --> 01:04.151
[SPEAKER_00]: believing that your needs are more important than mine.
01:04.432 --> 01:04.652
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:04.992 --> 01:07.514
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think like that's easier to hear.
01:07.594 --> 01:09.635
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I can understand what's going on for you.
01:09.655 --> 01:10.816
[SPEAKER_01]: But I got to be honest with you.
01:10.856 --> 01:15.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when you call me a narcissist, it kind of shuts me down.
01:15.959 --> 01:20.342
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so we got an email from a listener talking just about this.
01:20.362 --> 01:30.428
[SPEAKER_00]: What happens if you're in the middle of a conflict and you start throwing out the words like narcissists, you know, attachment style, stonewalling, like what do we do?
01:31.557 --> 01:43.829
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because the big question is, is does it help our partner understand themselves and us better or does it create even more distance in a complicated moment?
01:48.884 --> 02:01.028
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, all, and welcome to the Relationship Innovation Podcast, where we talk and process all things, relationships, the good, the bad, the uncomfortable, I am Terracurwin.
02:01.328 --> 02:16.732
[SPEAKER_01]: And my name is EJ Kerwin, and we're going to start off with, I'm going to read an email that we received from a listener, which we appreciate very much if you have any topics or questions you want to take on, go ahead and just hit us up with an email podcast at
02:18.953 --> 02:34.930
[SPEAKER_01]: but it says, hello, I was wondering if you guys could cover the topic of psychoanalysis of your partner with all the shorts and reels that fly around these days, passing judgment on a partner, their attachment style, clinical diagnoses, etc.
02:35.290 --> 02:41.917
[SPEAKER_01]: I found both myself and my partner guilty of psychoanalysis of each other, especially during a conflict.
02:42.997 --> 03:01.329
[SPEAKER_01]: My partner, in particular, likes to throw his analysis into the conversation in real time, which always brings up defensiveness in me, and feeling like he's not actually interested in understanding and connecting with me, he just is using it to be right about me, and it feels very close off in judgmental.
03:02.010 --> 03:07.493
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love for you to discuss this in which this way in which psychological analysis
03:10.829 --> 03:18.191
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so my first thoughts on this are, our brain loves labels, like this is a clipboard.
03:18.812 --> 03:20.772
[SPEAKER_00]: My partner's a asshole, narcissist.
03:21.232 --> 03:23.553
[SPEAKER_00]: You have anxious avoid an attachment.
03:24.013 --> 03:31.295
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like the minute that we don't know what's happening or we're feeling uncomfortable, our brain literally wants to label something.
03:32.036 --> 03:33.556
[SPEAKER_00]: So we feel like we have control.
03:33.636 --> 03:38.858
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna put that out there, like, and a biological level, like, our brain loves
03:39.458 --> 03:41.960
[SPEAKER_00]: to have a label for something.
03:42.020 --> 03:47.124
[SPEAKER_00]: And so when we're feeling uncomfortable and difficult moments are happening and our nervous systems disperse related, guess what we want to do?
03:48.285 --> 03:50.347
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my partner being a narcissist, of course.
03:50.747 --> 03:53.089
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, I think, yeah, I think there's a lot of truth there.
03:53.109 --> 03:58.093
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we want to name it for what can be positive first, right?
03:58.153 --> 04:06.801
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, the reason that we use like psychological diagnosis or behavioral diagnoses
04:08.902 --> 04:32.227
[SPEAKER_01]: understand what's happening, you know that they have a function in being like, oh, that's what that is like, you know, like when I maybe became more familiar with the way I shut down, right, that I can be avoidant, right, once I understood, oh, that's what that is, that's avoidant, it's like it's not just defensiveness,
04:38.948 --> 04:41.809
[SPEAKER_01]: and recognize it for it, and maybe it may be make a change.
04:42.650 --> 04:45.411
[SPEAKER_00]: But first is when I would call you avoiding, and you weren't.
04:45.451 --> 05:00.616
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes, and so that's the difference here is, and this is sort of at the heart of the question that this listener is asking is like, how useful is that in a relationship?
05:00.676 --> 05:02.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how useful is it?
05:03.017 --> 05:18.863
[SPEAKER_01]: in a time of conflict when specifically you label your partners behavior because like as we mentioned in the intro there've been not a ton of times but a few times that you that you've said you are such a narcissist.
05:19.663 --> 05:23.669
[SPEAKER_01]: And man, that, like, it, that, like, stings, you know.
05:23.689 --> 05:24.891
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean to laugh, I'm sorry.
05:24.931 --> 05:34.163
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was like sometimes I'm just like, I mean, I could look back on it and laugh at it as well because we kind of got through it, but in the moment,
05:34.824 --> 05:38.587
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't make me more curious about your experience.
05:39.127 --> 05:43.090
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't help me look at myself more deeply.
05:43.691 --> 05:53.518
[SPEAKER_01]: What it did was it made me super defensive and it made me sort of like maybe go into that judging place with you of like, she is.
05:53.598 --> 05:56.059
[SPEAKER_01]: That is like, it almost made me want to label you.
05:56.079 --> 05:56.900
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
05:56.920 --> 05:58.261
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's histrionic.
05:58.421 --> 06:01.183
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, if I'm a narcissist, you're fricking a histrionic.
06:01.203 --> 06:02.844
[SPEAKER_00]: They go great together and totally done.
06:04.145 --> 06:04.445
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:04.866 --> 06:05.646
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have loved you.
06:05.947 --> 06:06.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:06.627 --> 06:06.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
06:07.948 --> 06:08.809
[SPEAKER_00]: How dare you?
06:08.829 --> 06:09.109
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
06:09.210 --> 06:19.699
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think what we want to do is we want to talk about how it's almost that it creates a bit of a paradox here, right?
06:19.759 --> 06:27.766
[SPEAKER_01]: That labeling a partner may be trying to name like a real pattern, right?
06:27.786 --> 06:29.267
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like in this case, you know,
06:31.889 --> 06:37.733
[SPEAKER_01]: the pattern you're trying to label is it seems like you take care of your needs first.
06:37.873 --> 06:38.194
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
06:38.434 --> 06:54.866
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't really consider my needs, but when you label that and specifically you label the partner as something, it's almost like you've decided who I am, that it's not about my behavior at all.
06:55.566 --> 06:59.472
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about like, you are this, you are narcissists, you are a stone wall.
06:59.632 --> 07:11.610
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where attachment injuries come in right from like early childhood, you know, I mean it's like that is like when my needs aren't getting met and I perceive you as to be like,
07:12.230 --> 07:18.436
[SPEAKER_00]: that early attachment wound that didn't take care of me, it feels so true, right?
07:18.516 --> 07:26.063
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is why that individual curiosity for myself, like, why is this such a huge trigger for me?
07:26.789 --> 07:29.351
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so and it's like, oh, this is that's great.
07:29.731 --> 07:42.599
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of like the fundamental shifts that we want couples to take is in times of conflict instead of it looking like I'm pointing my finger at you and this is what you're doing wrong.
07:42.879 --> 07:47.682
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is how you need to change him is we want people to drop the finger.
07:48.422 --> 08:02.111
[SPEAKER_01]: Drop the finger literally sometimes and pick up a mirror, right, and we want them to look at themselves And so the process of like when when I label you as something I'm doing the exact opposite.
08:02.711 --> 08:10.776
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying like hey, this is this is a you problem You are this thing and you need to stop being this thing, right?
08:11.376 --> 08:15.139
[SPEAKER_01]: And it pulls us farther apart because what we want
08:15.659 --> 08:22.401
[SPEAKER_01]: We want to really bring in a tone of curiosity, open-heartedness.
08:22.601 --> 08:25.101
[SPEAKER_00]: What did I just trigger, help me understand?
08:25.121 --> 08:27.002
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to drop my defensiveness.
08:27.182 --> 08:29.302
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we get better at uncomfortable moments?
08:29.362 --> 08:29.682
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
08:30.223 --> 08:30.563
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I...
08:30.603 --> 08:31.423
[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of stay stuck.
08:31.443 --> 08:34.384
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's a system that stays stuck right.
08:34.404 --> 08:39.585
[SPEAKER_00]: Because then you're in this like pursuer, a voider, name-collar, blame-cycle.
08:40.085 --> 08:46.309
[SPEAKER_00]: And it could be anything, like you call it the meat grinder, you could put anything into it, right, parenting, intimacy, communication.
08:46.830 --> 08:52.874
[SPEAKER_00]: And if there's this stuck cycle, it's not gonna go anywhere, it's gonna come out looking the same, and people get trapped in this repetitive.
08:53.214 --> 09:00.860
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it comes back to this sort of new term that we're working a lot with, which is the courtroom trap, right?
09:01.280 --> 09:03.181
[SPEAKER_01]: And what happens in the... You do love that.
09:03.201 --> 09:04.022
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
09:04.542 --> 09:07.204
[SPEAKER_01]: And because what happens in the courtroom,
09:08.805 --> 09:10.708
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to label this person.
09:10.808 --> 09:18.478
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to prove that you are a thief, you're a murderer, you're these horrible things.
09:19.199 --> 09:21.922
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not the vibe that we want, right?
09:22.323 --> 09:25.927
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want to label you as something.
09:26.628 --> 09:28.469
[SPEAKER_01]: that's wrong, that's bad.
09:29.450 --> 09:38.955
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to look at you through the lens of something of someone who deserves my compassion, my love, my understanding.
09:39.355 --> 09:42.176
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I say you're whatever, I'll just pick
09:47.195 --> 10:08.788
[SPEAKER_00]: not useful, obviously, but also not building secure attachment, which is like our main goal for me, you and I, and also for the couples that are, you know, at our counseling practice or in our coaching, like, how do you build secure attachment that like we can be wounded?
10:08.808 --> 10:12.591
[SPEAKER_00]: You can wound me, I can wound you and we can understand
10:13.311 --> 10:17.595
[SPEAKER_00]: how we did that and then take care of each other and repair that.
10:18.336 --> 10:24.322
[SPEAKER_00]: Versus trying to get you to be something that you're not so I'm less uncomfortable.
10:24.982 --> 10:27.745
[SPEAKER_00]: That's actually not going to build secure attachment.
10:27.805 --> 10:30.968
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to like, it's going to continue to build insecure attachment.
10:30.988 --> 10:35.052
[SPEAKER_00]: That's only meeting one person's needs and it's going to be like a power struggle there too.
10:35.890 --> 10:51.404
[SPEAKER_01]: And so like really tie it back from the real quick, what is labeling the other person's behavior, saying they are something, how in particular is that, how specifically is that gonna damage that secure attachment attempt?
10:51.585 --> 10:58.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when I hear that, it's like, oh, it's just me in the relationship, that's a problem, there's something wrong with me.
10:59.912 --> 11:24.630
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting, I'm, there's something I'm not getting right if I would just change my behavior and now I feel like I'm putting a box and I'm limited and I'm not enough and now I'm insecure and maybe shame has come out versus let's just say I acted like an asshole and I did and I called you a narcissist and then I'm going to go do my work because I'm going to hold myself accountable for what I'm not my best self but then also like, hey honey what happened for you to like get to that point?
11:25.470 --> 11:29.393
[SPEAKER_00]: You must be really angry, upset, wounded, what happened, right?
11:29.573 --> 11:38.338
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so different because you're being curious about my error, big error that I did, my, my, a verbal assault on you.
11:38.378 --> 11:39.819
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's, that's huge.
11:39.859 --> 11:41.560
[SPEAKER_01]: That's huge for the listener, right?
11:42.000 --> 11:46.223
[SPEAKER_01]: Because what's interesting is when her partner,
11:47.003 --> 12:10.375
[SPEAKER_01]: is saying she is whatever he says she is she automatically takes it as like oh this is it becomes about her she feels it as an attack becomes defensive and shuts him out but really what's happening is there's something about her behavior or about the dynamic between them that he's really struggling with.
12:10.575 --> 12:10.775
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:11.155 --> 12:20.021
[SPEAKER_01]: and him labeling it stops her from actually being empathetic and caring and wanting to understand it more.
12:20.702 --> 12:28.988
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he's actually shooting himself in the foot in that moment by doing it because he's making it seem like she's the problem when really
12:30.028 --> 12:31.148
[SPEAKER_01]: He's hurting, right?
12:31.589 --> 12:43.632
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there's something that he may be trying to do that actually is really important and it's what we do with couples as we try to make the invisible visible, right?
12:43.992 --> 12:52.134
[SPEAKER_01]: We try to identify dynamics that are pulling them apart so we can look at them and help them do it differently, right?
12:52.194 --> 12:53.555
[SPEAKER_01]: So like for instance,
12:54.316 --> 13:06.713
[SPEAKER_01]: When somebody, and this is a big one, and this kind of like is a pet peeve for me because I hear it so freaking much these days, is like, he is stonewalling, you're a stonewall, right?
13:07.174 --> 13:08.476
[SPEAKER_01]: And that automatically,
13:09.257 --> 13:10.297
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just never goes good.
13:10.698 --> 13:12.098
[SPEAKER_01]: It never is like, oh, really?
13:12.118 --> 13:13.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me change then.
13:13.999 --> 13:26.804
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I'm not, you know, underneath it instead of saying, hey, you're stonewalling or you're a stonewaller, it's like, hey, when you go quiet,
13:28.098 --> 13:42.375
[SPEAKER_01]: when you pull away from me it's really hard like I feel really lonely I feel like we're no longer connected and in a moment like that I really want to still be with you.
13:43.152 --> 14:03.950
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the, that just, whoo, and that's the change right there, but it takes a lot of work because when that cycle has been set up for people who are calling each other like stone mollers or narcissists, there's usually repair that has to happen on the system itself, so both individuals, but usually it takes up one individual
14:04.590 --> 14:16.118
[SPEAKER_00]: to get their heels not dug in, to be able to shift it from stonewalling to like, I've got to let you know, I feel so alone in this moment, because it's like, well, the other person's not doing it either.
14:16.138 --> 14:17.539
[SPEAKER_00]: They just keep being silent.
14:18.080 --> 14:20.601
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just want to say like, yes, that sounds amazing.
14:21.502 --> 14:37.131
[SPEAKER_00]: be it's really hard, see it actually really works because you're having a voice that's coming from your heart and your experience and if they still want to get defensive to that and still shut down like that's not on you anymore.
14:37.331 --> 14:44.615
[SPEAKER_00]: At least you came out instead of blaming like owning what's happening in your experience and so it can't be manipulated.
14:44.735 --> 14:47.077
[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot more work.
14:47.737 --> 14:49.839
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so I'm gonna use like is it okay?
14:49.979 --> 14:55.963
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm using the whole histrionic thing I don't think I really ever called you histrionic I don't know just a matter.
14:55.983 --> 14:57.384
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a secure attachment now.
14:57.425 --> 14:58.065
[SPEAKER_00]: I can manage.
14:58.105 --> 15:03.549
[SPEAKER_01]: I can do so say Terrors having like big emotions, right?
15:04.049 --> 15:07.272
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is often and they don't make sense to me.
15:07.372 --> 15:07.592
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
15:07.612 --> 15:14.918
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, and I don't want to know Yes, and so if I just say like you are being so histrionic
15:15.498 --> 15:15.758
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
15:16.418 --> 15:21.480
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like such a shortcut, that's such like a lazy way to go about it, right?
15:22.020 --> 15:26.802
[SPEAKER_01]: Because what I could do in that moment is I could do some self-reflection.
15:26.822 --> 15:31.723
[SPEAKER_01]: I could be like, gosh, like, I just don't know what to do with her emotions.
15:31.803 --> 15:34.344
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like really overwhelmed.
15:34.904 --> 15:36.565
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like ineffective.
15:37.805 --> 15:42.147
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel lost in those moments.
15:43.653 --> 16:03.700
[SPEAKER_01]: And what a different thing and but it takes a little more work for me to say that for me to say that for me to be like, hey honey like I just feel like super overwhelmed right now like when you feel things so strongly and I'm just so not like that and so I want to be there for you right now, but I literally don't know how to.
16:04.277 --> 16:05.799
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so soothing to me.
16:06.219 --> 16:07.540
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be a leap for me.
16:07.700 --> 16:12.305
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, because you know, you would try to fix it and make my anxiety or my big emotions going.
16:12.325 --> 16:15.068
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, just like be like, and you've said it before.
16:15.088 --> 16:19.712
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this is a whole, this is, and see how these compound, this is what you would say.
16:20.092 --> 16:23.255
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd be like, you are a deer in the headlights right now.
16:23.296 --> 16:23.516
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:23.876 --> 16:38.579
[SPEAKER_01]: Like because I do like in those moments where you have those big emotions like my eyes get like really big or or this is so interesting or I try not to be a deer the headlights so I kind of like tighten myself and then
16:39.501 --> 16:43.546
[SPEAKER_01]: I still feel it and then you're like now you got hard eyes.
16:44.007 --> 16:48.793
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yes, and I'm like no cannot keep your avoidance secrets from me.
16:48.953 --> 16:56.483
[SPEAKER_01]: So so I'm avoiding being the dear and the headlights by trying to stay composed which then in the moment.
16:57.264 --> 17:11.383
[SPEAKER_01]: right and it's easy again for me to just blame like you are so instead of his dramatic I could say you're so dramatic you're so emotional you're going really sensitive yeah right it must be your period time
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we know it's not that anymore.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what I'm saying.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We hear this all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think what we're telling this listener and this couple is I don't know whether slappens, psychoanoletical or pop culture, new psychology terms on your partner.
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[SPEAKER_01]: is going to be helpful, but it's indicating something and the interesting thing is it's not saying that you need to tell your partner what they are.
17:44.986 --> 17:51.031
[SPEAKER_01]: It's indicating that you need to tell your partner what you're struggling with about
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[SPEAKER_01]: their behavior.
17:52.773 --> 17:53.373
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This behavior.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This behavior triggered me in this way.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we just love that.
17:59.578 --> 18:02.980
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the rain technique, the Tara Brock teaches it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Recognize, allow, investigate, nurture.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because you're kind of understanding what's happening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're not trying to cut off emotions or the process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're you're understanding it better.
18:12.067 --> 18:15.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, if you guys don't know the rain technique, I love it.
18:16.150 --> 18:19.052
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, Tara Brock, you can just type in rain on Google.
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[SPEAKER_00]: recognize allow investigate nurture it's going to give you a chance to a understand what's happening but it's also where our cognitive restructuring exercise we have one for couples but if you're listening to this individually and you're like oh I want to I want to know what that is it's so helpful in understanding triggers and our automatic thoughts feelings behaviors and then getting to the underlying negative core beliefs that
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[SPEAKER_00]: are running the show that we actually don't want running the show.
18:50.308 --> 19:13.625
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you need that, it's in our relationship or innovation at home manual in the Amazon, but I can also send that over through our Patreon or even email, like a PDF, to kind of give you a structured way of understanding how to understand triggers better so that you have a chance in these moments to change the cycle of what it really is, because I don't think it feels good for either of these people.
19:14.003 --> 19:20.365
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I also want to offer this couple because often times when we have like a repetitive thing that happened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in this case, this was interesting like we often throw labels at each other and it doesn't and and she's kind of basically saying like I can tell it's not helping.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably going to happen for you again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so what you can do if you if you throw out some term and you see your partner look like they're shutting down, you might want to pause and try a repair attempt here and the repair attempt would look something like look.
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I just analyzed you and what I probably could have done is I could open up and I could tell you about what I'm actually feeling.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, instead of thinking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, love it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And can I try that again?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's the thing that you've told me like so many times over the years is like,
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, if you just say like you were just short or you were kind of mean, you're being a jerk.
20:19.657 --> 20:26.465
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you just say like you did it, and then and then try to make a gear shift, that would mean so much.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it does mean so much.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think for both of us, because I can also be
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because what if one of those times, like I can remember, like I was in the bathroom or you came in and you were like giving me the narcissist action and what if you would have paused walked out of the bathroom came back in and if you would have said, you know, I know I called you narcissist but really what it is is just like sometimes I just don't know how to get my needs met.
20:49.884 --> 20:52.187
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I have resentment, and I'm working on that.
20:52.308 --> 20:54.671
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it would be huge as everyone else into that.
20:54.751 --> 21:03.564
[SPEAKER_00]: I would often, I would often, and I would often, and we would often together, and then we would develop our secure attachment that everyone deserves to have.
21:03.965 --> 21:04.265
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you, listener, for sending us that email and letting us have this amazing thought provoking experience together on a Friday morning in our podcast studio, always grateful to our listeners out there and again, anything you might want to hear on an episode, we're also going to start doing live episodes, so we're super excited about that, but just reach
21:31.039 --> 21:32.040
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we do appreciate it if if you're one of those listeners and there's there's some like crazy percentage like 60% of regular listeners aren't subscribers.
21:42.010 --> 21:54.963
[SPEAKER_01]: If you could take that step, just hit that little button, become a subscriber, whether you're on YouTube, or you're listening on your favorite, you know podcast platform, please subscribe, give us a
21:55.403 --> 22:04.108
[SPEAKER_01]: If you give us a rating, it really means a lot and helping us just get the message out of having a happy, healthy, loving, secure relationship.
22:04.288 --> 22:16.415
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't checked out our relationship for innovation at Home Manual on Amazon, again, all the skills, building curiosity in a whole process, check it out, we love it, it's our passion.
22:16.435 --> 22:18.196
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, thank you so much for listening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As always, take care of yourself, take care of each other.
22:20.658 --> 22:21.078
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye-bye.
22:24.597 --> 22:34.533
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just singing on the train, me and you listening to the rain Me and you, we are the same, me and you have all the fame we need
