Light as a Nutrient: Sunlight, Circadian Rhythm & Metabolic Health | Dr. Max Gulhane on The Signal Podcast

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I'm Jonathan Drecki, and this is The Signal.
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I'm an undergraduate at Davidson College studying biology and neuroscience with a passion for preventative medicine and translating complex scientific research into clear, evidence-based educational content.
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My guest today is Dr.
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Max Golhain.
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Dr.
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Golhain is a practicing family medicine physician and a fellow of the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners.
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He graduated from the University of Melbourne as a Doctor of Medicine and Master of Public Health, having earned a Bachelor of Science at the University of Queensland in 2013.
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After which, he started working clinically in general and emergency medicine before commencing general practice training in 2023, receiving specialist general practice accreditation this year.
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Congratulations, Dr.
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Golhein.
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He's one of the clearest voices working on photobiology, circadian rhythm, and mitochondrial health, and how all three drive metabolic health and longevity.
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In today's episode, we talk about light.
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And no, not just go get some sunlight for vitamin D, although we do talk about vitamin D.
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We go a lot deeper than just that.
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In recent years, we have been told to avoid the sun as much as possible.
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To cover up, put on the sunscreen, and hide from it.
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Dr.
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Golhain makes the opposite the case.
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That light is a nutrient, something that is essential for all life forms.
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We get into what ultraviolet light actually does beyond vitamin D, how it triggers a hormone precursor called POM C that tans your skin, blunts your hunger, and even lowers your blood pressure.
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That might sound surprising, but it points to something your body was built to expect.
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We talk about why the vitamin D in long-lived people might be less a cause and more a receipt and proof they got the sun.
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We also get into artificial light at night, why the blue light from your screens and overhead bulbs suppress melatonin, and why melatonin is doing far more than making you sleepy.
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And we get into red and near-infrared light, the part of sunlight you can't see that penetrates deep into your tissues and is powering your mitochondria.
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Dr.
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Golhain explains why a sealed, blue-lit indoor work environment, our modern work environment, might be driving the prevalent metabolic disease we see in modern society.
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By the end of today, you're going to understand light not as something to fear, but as an input your body needs.
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And you'll walk away with a simple framework for getting it right.
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A quick note before we start this podcast is educational.
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It's not medical advice.
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And it's made to bring real science to the general public.
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This episode also includes some sponsors.
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And now my conversation with Dr.
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Max Golhain.
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Dr.
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Max Golhain, welcome.
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Hey Jonathan, thank you.
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So first off, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on here.
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I've been a huge fan of yours for a while.
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You share so much amazing information, both on your YouTube, your podcast, X.
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Uh it's really, really great stuff.
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So I appreciate all you've done in this space, and I'm super excited to have this uh conversation that we're gonna have today.
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Yeah, thanks.
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Um thanks, thanks for the kind words.
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It's it's uh I mean it's such an amazing field.
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I guess we're gonna go into it.
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Um, so many different avenues of exploration, and I think a lot of opportunity to help a lot of people in yeah, in many different ways.
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For sure.
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Um, all right.
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So I love asking this question uh to all people in this space.
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And I and we can tie it into like how you uh ended up focusing on light and circadian health.
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But really the the main question here is how did where did your love for like medicine and science originate from?
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Where did it come from?
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Yeah, my my family had some medical background.
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My my grandfather was an obstetrician and gynecologist, and that was always seen to be a respectable profession.
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And uh I'm someone who's who's quite curious and I also like a challenge.
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Uh so I I I really wanted to knuckle down and see if I could, you know, had what it took to become a medical doctor.
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And and uh it wasn't an easy necessarily journey for me, but I I couldn't bear the thought of of uh like not trying because I don't I know you know about that fable about Sal Grapes and uh Aesop's fable.
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Like uh so I had to try and I I got in and then I guess curiosity in many ways got got the better of me.
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Um and I I wasn't satisfied with a lot of the answers that I kind of got w when you explore these these different areas and when you get taught different things.
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And then when when my personal experience, like I had quite severe acne during medical school and and during my science degree, um when when I that combined with the kind of the the curriculum, the medical curriculum, and there was this there was this a disconnect between what I was being taught and the and the toolkit to address lifestyle disease and my personal lived experience and my personal encounters with medical professionals, dermatologists, other G and GPs.
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And it was a a a major problem or opening or opportunity to really get to the heart of what are causing lifestyle diseases.
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And the hint was that it's it was nothing in in the curriculum.
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The curriculum doesn't pr provide you or prepare you as a medical practitioner to get to the root cause of your patient's lifestyle or chronic diseases.
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So, you know, exploring this and being forced to find a solution for my own problem, which was acne, led me to ask you know a similar question of these other lifestyle diseases, whether that's type 2 diabetes, whether that's dementia, whether that's inflammatory bowel disease.
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And it turns out um that yes, there's there's more to the story than uh prednisolone and um you know sulfur salazine or or whatever these immunomodulating drugs are, just to give a small example.
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So we can uh prevent in many ways and reverse disease processes if we delve deep enough into the causal pathway, which in is inevitably related to lifestyle.
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Um and that's where the circadian biology and light and photobiology came in, because if you follow this rabbit hole deep enough, then you get to such fundamental places as uh m mitochondrial function, as uh you know, cell cellular function and and um you know the chromophore action of of of the mitochondria and the circadian mechanism in in the cells, and you realize that these are all um fundamental actions that aren't druggable or aren't medicatable.
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Um, and that's the reason why they haven't been emphasized in in medical school.
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It's not because they're not important, it's because there's no clear pathway to economic or you know financial art or monetization.
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So it it dawned on me that it's actually now uh my job and other people's job who take it take it upon themselves to do the detective work and actually read the scientific literature uh because this literature exists, it's just not being emphasized about how the body actually works, what are these key underlying determinants of of human health, and um how can we influence them using different interventions like circadian interventions, like light interventions, just to give an example, to to to optimize health.
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And and it it turns out that if if you you know apply this uh principle, then you really can make quite a lot of headway in in terms of you know optimizing people's health and what I I believe to be optimizing people's you know longevity as well.
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So uh that that's where I sit at the moment.
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Um I mean I'm a practicing family medicine doctor now, and and I can have the opportunity to discuss these topics with patients who are who are interested.
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And you know, the the reaction is almost universally surprised, which is you know, why why why wasn't this taught to me before?
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Why wasn't I told about this before?
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Amazing.
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Um, well, let's get into it.
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Let's get into light.
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Uh before we're gonna be talking a lot about light in this conversation.
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So before we get into that, I would love if you could just give like a little like elevator pitch definition of like what is light, what is it physically?
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Um I know, you know, we most people think of light, oh, just something I see, it helps me see things, but we're gonna talk about much more than just that.
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So just before we like begin there, what is light in to begin with?
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What is it?
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Yeah, I mean, light means different things depending on your perspective to a to a physicist, to a photobiologist.
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I mean, f fundamentally, uh light light is electromagnetic radiation.
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It it's um radiation that's emitted from our uh sun, which is essentially essentially a star, and it is the is essentially the waste energy that gets ejected from from a sun and from the sun and it it exhibits physical properties that are both wave wave-like and particle-like, uh, and that I guess you can think about and determine its its behavior.
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Um, and then really by the time it hits us on planet Earth, it's both a it's both an environmental signal um and a trigger for biological processes, but it's also energy, and it's also a source of of energy that f uh facilitates human metabolism, and I I would say not only human metabolism, but um l metabolism on on of l of almost all life on earth.
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So it's beyond what it's so much more than what we can actually see because the visual spectrum uh restricts our perception of of light to between 400 approximately 700 nanometers.
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Um however, below that there's there's light present, um which is restricted by the atmospheric filtration because we we don't get all the short wavelength light, thankfully, um, and that's very high energy light.
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And and the light extends beyond our visible perception into the infrared.
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And uh for better or for worse, and what we can see is not all that there is, and all that there is is actually um playing a role in in biology and our and our body's functions.
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And when we think about our needs, um the the design specification of the body, though that those design specifications include a purpose for light that's not visible, whether that's shorter wavelength non-visible light in the ultraviolet and longer wavelength light in in the infrared.
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But because of the way perhaps we think and we work reductionistically in today's modern modern life, we we and this is uh there's actually a um you know mental model, or I guess you could say uh a failure of of mental um thinking, a heuristic, which is that you know, all all we can see or is is we we think that's all there is.
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And it's it's to our detriment because we ignore a lot of the value of the solar spectrum, which as I said is is triggering biological processes, it's providing information about time of day, time of year, season, it's providing um energy, it's writing instructions to cells.
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Um, and that all is occurring uh in in a way that the body has adapted to um to use, to make use of.
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So in in short, I think light is it's it's a valuable nutrient.
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It's it's a it's it's energy, it's nutrition, uh, metaphorically speaking, and it's an essential part of living optimally for for Homo sapiens.
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Amazing.
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That very well said.
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I love I love how you talk about light as a nutrient.
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Uh and so I want to sort of break down the light spectrum and also keep in mind that when we are getting exposed to sunlight, we aren't just getting exposed to one of these light spectrums.
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It's all of them at the same time.
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But I think it is helpful for us to just understand when we're breaking down these light spectrums, uh, that again, we're not getting them all isolated, but we are, we are getting them all together.
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Um, but I so I want to sort of start on the short wavelength side of the spectrum.
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So you said UV, which is just beyond visible, visible light.
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And I I I want to, you know, most people think when they're going and getting in sunlight, really all there is is, oh, I'm gonna get vitamin D.
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And the reason for that is because of that invisible part of the spectrum.
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So they're going out in sunlight to get something that they can't even see.
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And it just, they, they think, you know, maybe just vitamin D, and that's sort of sort of it.
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But there's so much more, right?
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So I wanna, I want to sort of dive dive in there.
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Uh, talk about what um, you know, walk walk us through what UV is doing beyond vitamin D alone, right?
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Nitric oxide, POM C, all these other things.
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So if you if you could sort of start start us there um to to get started here.
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Yeah.
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Uh ultraviolet, I mean, l like the definition or the the words explain what it is.
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I mean, vi violet, violet light and getting at the edge of what's perceptible, it's below that.
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And if we think about like a uh the spectrum, it's it's between uh the ultraviolet itself sits between about 280 nanometers and it goes all the way up to 400.
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And UV UVB, which is the most shortest wavelength of the most high energy photon, goes to about 350, maybe 320 nanometers.
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And that is the you you know, you mentioned vitamin D.
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That that is what people most associate, kind of maybe it's the most well-known photochemical reaction in in the body, and it essentially involves one of these photons having enough energy to be able to break open the cholesterol ring, and obviously cholesterol is a structural component of of our cell membranes, and and it essentially breaks a ring open and then allows an isomerization into vitamin D.
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And then that vitamin D goes on to diffuse around the body, become enzymatically transformed, and then help cu conduct a whole bunch of very important processes from you know bone mineralization to immune system function, um, to neuron development and everything in between.
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But the you know, the key points to know about vita about UV light is that it's in many ways it's a double-edged sword because the same uh photon that breaks this cholesterol bond to give us this life, life-sustaining vitamin D is also at doses um able to damage DNA because again, it has it has that that amount of energy.
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So um that that's that that's something to keep in in the back of the mind.
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But you know, what what are the other relevant pathways when when you have exposure to ultraviolet bee light is this pro-opio monocortin pathway?
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Um, and you know, it's been described in many ways.
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I still think one of the best ways to describe it is like a carnival ticket that has, you know, maybe like six different theme parks all attached to the same ticket, and then depending on which which theme park you're going to or different organ in the body, like you cut it up at different places and it has, you know, it lets you into different uh theme parks.
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But you know, that analogy is that it's a it's a um a peptide uh pro hormone that um gives the body a essentially a toolkit to adapt to or deal with ultraviolet exposure.
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And this is the good and the bad of ultraviolet exposure.
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And when it when we would talk about the I guess the the good is that it's necessary to orchestrate uh a bunch of of really important processes.
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I mean, the most common one is is the tanning response, which is um alpha MSH related.
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And interestingly, that that same compound alpha MSH, which you know, some people are injecting in a purified form, you know, in substance, peptide substance called melanotan, and they you see the most pale person, um, and then you know, a month later they look like they've just spent um they've spent the summer somewhere um extremely um hot.
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But uh that's just injecting purified alpha MSH, and it's like the substance that uh the body triggers um melanocytes to make to uh to to make a whole bunch of of melanin, which acts as a skin pigment.
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But interestingly, the the the ultraviolet light and the alpha MSH, which is one of these POMC cleavage products, also can s stimulate the satiety regions of the brain and the hypothalamus to switch off satiety or switch off um hunger cues.
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So it's it's a it's a very complex and ancient preserved system that kind of ties in short wavelength light exposure to the most appropriate reaction.
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So the question then, and and to take a short detour into metabolism, because I uh that's one of my you know passions as as a practicing family doctor who sees metabolic disease all the time, and you know, seeing uh people deal with weight gain and all the rest is like, okay, how how is the system, how is our body built to potentially calibrate nutrient intake relative to environmental conditions?
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And the POMC system gives one elegant explanation, which is when there's a bunch of ultraviolet light in the environment, which is only gonna be happening when the sun is uh you know in at a relatively overhead angle in the sky, which is gonna dictate that it's either summer or you know, you're in a relatively equatorial latitude, then it's gonna switch off your desire for food finding.
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Because again, the the the light itself, and going back to our discussion about the different roles of of light as energy and information, it's it actually is able to provide a direct, yeah, essentially an uh energy-like input that I would say lubricates the uh the process of electron trans transfer uh and optimizes it it essentially optimizes the transformation or the production of energy in in mitochondria.
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So, you know, that's only one of the the two of the pathways that POMC is related to.
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There's there's a heap more.
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These melanocortin peptides that they can regulate vascular constriction.
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You if you knock out some of these melanocortin receptors in mouse models, then their arteries get all stiff and they get coronary artery disease more.
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If you knock out, again, certain of the of certain other of these melanocortin uh peptides, then you can impair um like blood pressure regulation.
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Um there's melanocortin influence on the immune system.
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Um there's uh and key one is the melanocortin effect on or endorphin effect, which is the same compound that is uh getting cleaved off POMC to essentially port back to the brain and give you a little opioid hit, essentially.
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Essentially a reward pathway for being in in the sun and for getting that UVB light.
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So, you know, it's it's a very interesting um and ancient and conserved pathway that exists there.
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And I think it speaks to how how important that ultraviolet light is.
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And you know, we can talk about dosing because clearly not everyone has the same threshold or um ability to sustain the same intensity of ultraviolet B light.
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I mean, that's obvious, and that's that's why we have a scale of phototypes from the most pale um and the most likely to burn all the way to you know the darkest type six Nigerian, Kenyan, Australian Aboriginal who are extremely resistant to to sunburn.
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So not everyone can sustain the same level of of UVB intensity, not everyone's designed to.
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Um, but the the point here is that it's it's it is information, it's it's it's actually necessary because without ultraviolet light, um, there was you you're simply unable to regulate skeletal development, and that was probably one of the pressures that led to depigmentation in as we as uh populations move north, because uh there needed to be a way to preserve vitamin D synthesis.
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Um I'm also interested in cardiovascular disease.
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Again, this is part of this so-called cardiometabolic, uh, and they've added renal depending on who what paper you read, cardiometabolic m renal disease, which is that uh you you part of this metabolic syndrome is hypertension.
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So, and the metabolic syndrome is a cluster of of Traits or um signs and symptoms, signs and biochemical findings that associate with higher risk of heart attack and stroke and and you know our adverse outcome.
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So, you know, there's a there's a massive industry looking at blood pressure regulation, blood pressure control, and uh in in in efforts to optimize our cardiovascular, reduce our cardiovascular risk.
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But it it turns out that that ultraviolet A light, maybe from you know three, three, what's that, 320 to 400 nanometers, is is actually able to lower blood pressure.
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And look, it uh it's actually there's a UVB effect too.
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It's not only UVA, it's UVB as well, and extending out into the visible.
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It all all those wavelengths are able to lower blood pressure, but the the seminal work in blood pressure lowering effect was done by Professor Richard Weller, dermatologist, and he wanted to demonstrate that it was possible to do it without in a vitamin D independent way.
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That's why he was focusing on UVA.
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But the the the crux of the matter is that you can lower someone's blood pressure, and it's a it's a you know, depending on what study you read, maybe um potential depending on duration, but you you you're you're lowering, you're liberating this compound called nitric oxide from stores in in in and around the blood vessels in in the skin, and that affects to vasodilate or dilate the blood the the the venous and um and arterial systems, and then you know you can lock you can essentially lower blood pressure, which is incredible and fascinating.
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And you know, one of the key studies that Weller referenced in in his investigation of this was how this effect was differentiated in people with different skin type.
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So they used um dialysis um facilities.
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So dialysis facilities are useful because you've got massive amounts of uh blood pressure data, and then they married that up with satellite data specifying ultraviolet conditions for that time of year and and obviously latitude, and they could see that the more higher intensity of ultraviolet light, the lower the blood pressures were, uh, but only in people of fairer skin types.
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So the effect was attenuated if in in African American uh patients, and the the reason being is because the them their epidermal melanin was blocking the the or essentially absorbing and dissipating the ultraviolet light as heat and then preventing it from having biologically active role, which is whether that's POM C transcription or um or vitamin D synthesis or or you or nitric oxide liberation.
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So that the the fascinating point here is that, and that this is kind of goes down its own uh, I guess, social determinants of health pathway, which is could it be that the adverse or and disparate um health outcomes that we see for darker skinned people in all over the world, but you know, particularly in places like Southern Australia and Melbourne, in places like the UK, in Canada, and northern parts of the US, can w is that accountable for potential light exposure and the fact that there's a whole bunch of people who had whose ancestors adapted to a really high ultraviolet index and a high uh UV environment who are no longer getting their light needs met.
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Um, and could that possibly be presenting or contributing to chronic diseases and and cut these cardiometabolic diseases?
00:26:13.120 --> 00:26:14.640
I I that's my personal opinion.
00:26:14.800 --> 00:26:21.200
Um, and uh probably psychiatric illnesses as well, and that's and neurodevelopmental ill illnesses.
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:34.720
I mean, vitamin D, we you know, we we don't necessarily need to go into the minutiae of vitamin D function, but it's a key uh it's a key psychosteroid hormone for the correct or appropriate neurodevelopment.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:53.600
And we have good literature that if if the if the infant fetus or the has low serum vitamin D, if the mother was vitamin D deficient during her gestation, then the threshold for the development of of neurodevelopmental diseases is lowered.
00:26:53.759 --> 00:27:06.320
Um because the ambient or the um there's it essentially a neuroinflammatory milieu that gets upregulated as as in in vitamin D deficiency.
00:27:06.560 --> 00:27:18.880
Um so that's a fascinating implication and accounts for these observations of really high rates of of autism in, say, Somali populations in uh Detroit or Toronto.
00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:23.680
So you know, there's there's lots of really, really fascinating implications here.
00:27:23.840 --> 00:27:27.279
But what I would say is that ultra-art light is is essential.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:45.759
It's essential for life, and and I think it's essential for for longevity, because if we look at take another slice of the literature and look at uh all cause mortality, we look at death by any cause, these repeatedly, and things like cardiovascular outcome, the associations are extremely strong for higher serum vitamin D levels.
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:54.800
But we can't seem to replicate the same findings with intervention studies that give a purified uh vitamin D3.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:58.480
So the question then is uh what what's actually going on?
00:27:58.560 --> 00:28:08.800
And well, it the vitamin D in the serum that's being measured in the long-lived people, yes, it's having those beneficial effects, but it's also a receipt for solar exposure.
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:13.200
And the people that are having more solar exposure are living uh are living longer.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.880
So we we just have to be smart about dosing.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:21.600
I mean, it's that's that's the the kind of synthesis of this problem.
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:38.240
And I think on both ends, especially here in Australia, uh the way dermatology and frames ultraviolet light has dominated the discussion about UV and and health, and they've framed it and they've painted it with a absolute you know harm brush.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:43.120
Um the opposite perspective is that all UV good all the time.
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:55.840
Um, and then the middle here is we absolutely need to get UV, we just need to titrate it to our skin type, our our latitude, our ancestral background, and our um ambient UV conditions.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:12.720
And to be honest, I I think the literature supports erring on the side of more rather than rather than less UV because the consequences for what we're dealing with in chronic disease are s are in so many ways downstream of ultraviolet deficiency.
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.840
But uh, you know, that's that's how I how I feel about it.
00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:21.360
And obviously we have to be careful, but that's my my current take on the literature.
00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:22.720
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:29.440
I I want to sort of address like the elephant in the room here, and that's like melanoma and skin cancer, right?
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:41.519
Everyone, especially, you know, definitely propagated by the dermatology field, uh, thinks about sunlight and wants to avoid it because of these potential uh risks with melanoma and skin cancer.
00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:50.640
But I want to sort of, if you if you could for us, just tell us what the evidence actually says um versus like what dermatology is sort of telling their patients.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:51.200
Yeah.
00:29:51.360 --> 00:30:00.160
So again, like let's look at what we know about vitamin D, the vitamin D literature in skin cancer, because that I think tells us a lot.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:07.440
And there's maybe three different ways of looking at, well, there's many more than that, but th three that I like to refer to.
00:30:07.600 --> 00:30:16.320
And when when a malignant melanoma gets biopsy, we measure we take many histological measurements to understand its severity.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:27.279
So one of them is Breslow thickness, and that is that that is associated with greater Brazil thickness, is associated with uh greater well, lower serum vitamin D.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:34.080
So again, the more vitamin, the lower your vitamin D level, the more likely you are to have a thicker melanoma.
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:39.039
And the there was a UK study that looked at metastatic melanoma.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.960
So patients who've had it, their their malignant melanoma spread.
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:56.160
And it was extremely clear dose effect, which was the more your, the lower the serum vitamin D, the more likely you were to have had, you know, stage four, stage three, uh malignant melanoma.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:11.600
So, you know, that that that should prick up anyone's ears if they're understanding what we just said earlier in the discussion, which is that the only type of photon that's got enough energy to synthesize vitamin D in the skin is UVB light.
00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:27.120
So if UVB is is the um you know the only cause of or the most important cause of um malignant melanoma, then how how can we square that that whole that that um you know square the whole?
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:28.800
It doesn't it it doesn't make sense.
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:40.400
And then we look at other findings, which is less reliable epidemiology, but essentially showing that chronic exposure, chronic sun exposure seems to be protective of the development of of malignant melanoma.
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.200
So to And that means regular sun exposure, right?
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:44.400
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:44.560 --> 00:31:47.440
And as as might be found in say outdoor workers.
00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:57.039
Um and then you know, I like to take this approach, which is how how we appro how are we treating malignant melanoma and potentially met metastatic?
00:31:57.120 --> 00:32:00.880
I mean, non-metastatic melanoma just gets excise, it gets cut out.
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:06.960
But for those for those that have it spread to lymph nodes and and to other organs, you know, what is the standard of care right now?
00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:12.640
Um and this will this gives us an insight into what the pathophysiology of malignant melanoma actually is.
00:32:12.800 --> 00:32:28.080
And so right now it's it's in immunotherapy with these checkpoint inhibitor drugs, and they're they're extremely effective uh at essentially treating malignant melanoma, and they're doing so by by manipulating immune function.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.240
So that should give us a clue as to you know what is actually going on here.
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:39.200
And and just like other cancers, um, I believe m malignant melanoma is a a problem of immune escape.
00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:46.480
It's a problem of of inappropriate surveillance and destruction of of of malignant cells.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.640
And does does sun exposure or UVB light, could it lie on the causal pathway for for some people?
00:32:52.800 --> 00:32:54.400
Uh sure, absolutely.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:01.200
But does eliminating all ultraviolet light from um that person's life, is that the best approach?
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:02.400
I I don't think so.
00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:04.960
And certainly not at a population level.
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.320
So, you know, it's what what's the analogy that Dr.
00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:08.720
Dr.
00:33:08.800 --> 00:33:13.759
Alexander Wunsch gave a good analogy of, you know, uh, you know, oxy oxygen.
00:33:13.840 --> 00:33:28.080
I mean, oxygen is it's it's a it's this terminal electron acceptor, it allows mitochondrial respiration to happen, but it also generates oxidative stress, which is at at the core of of you know chronic chronic diseases and and aging.
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.880
So, you know, are we gonna solve chronic disease and aging by turning off the oxygen supply?
00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:34.400
You know, absolutely not.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:42.880
But that is the mindset that we're we're faced with in in the dermatology uh literature and their messaging.
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:54.800
And how I think feel about this is that I feel like the the dermatologists um and their messaging is actually um it's it's what's the best word here?
00:33:54.880 --> 00:34:03.360
Uh is I I would say overtaken all the rest of the public health imaging um messaging when it comes to health promotion.
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:26.480
And luckily we have dermatologists like Professor Richard Weller who are arguing for the all-cause mortality benefit of of greater sun exposure, because they're seeing that the benefits on blood pressure lowering and cardiovascular uh disease and non-skin cancer cancers, that all goes down the more sunlight people get.
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:40.719
And this is the but his Bybank research studies and and um branching off the Pelilinquist's Melanoma and Southern Sweden cohort study from um all showing greater sun seeking was associated with greater life.
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:49.360
So what what I think is that the messaging's been hijacked by the anti-sun narratives, um, and that's that's actually they're having great harm.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:57.200
So, you know, it sounds controversial, but I would I would actually posit and I would frame that as UV light extremism.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.119
That that's what I think about it.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:06.639
They're they're they're presenting an extremist view on ultraviolet exposure um to the detriment of of systemic health.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:20.400
And we need to, again, we find a middle ground that allows or promotes enough uh exposure so that people can optimize their health in a way that respects their their skin type and their um ancestry.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:27.039
And it can be done, but we just need to have a nuanced, less black and white um picture of of the problem.
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.240
Yeah, that's great.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.480
You you gave a presentation called Sunlight and Cancer Beyond Skin Deep.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:39.360
I'm gonna link that in the show notes of this this episode for people to watch because I think it's an absolutely incredible uh presentation.
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:45.200
You go into a lot of the nuance, you give a lot of the evidence for what we sort of just discussed, and it's really great.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:51.680
So I'm gonna link that in the show notes for people if they want to sort of dive deeper into this side of the sunlight spectrum.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.720
Um so moving on a little bit down the sunlight spectrum towards into the visible.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:59.200
Uh we have we have blue light just beyond violet.
00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:06.320
Uh, and I want to um sort of shift gears into a little circadian biology and talking about artificial light at night.
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:11.280
I think a lot of people have sort of heard blue light at night is not good for you.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.480
Um and there's obviously a lot of nuance that and getting deeper into like why.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:27.599
Um and so if you could just talk about artificial light at night and some of the downstream consequences, I know there's a lot, so we don't need to cover all of them, but just some of the main ones that you you think about um regularly.
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:42.320
Yeah, may maybe we'll continue the like the cancer discussion because it can throw on quite nicely, which is the master hormones that influence or dictate um the s sleep-wake cycles are melatonin and cortisol.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:54.559
And those are fundamentally um light, light-dictated um hormones, at least as as they're released centrally um from the central, from the pineal and the pituitary gland.
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:23.200
Um this essentially uh through a convoluted pathway, it s ceases the synthesis or production of melatonin in your pineal gland.
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:50.559
And you know, this is a perfectly useful and beneficial uh adaptation to changing environmental conditions, which is let's stop uh repair processes, let's stop somnolence, let's um cease that that because there's light around, and therefore we need to wake up, we need to hunt, we need to gather, we need to run, probably if there's predators around, and we need to survive.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:38:22.960
So the the blue light signal um is is a is a is a trigger for all these um pituitary hormones via the the the hypothalamus uh after this signal's been relayed from from the retina um in those very small number of of retinal ganglion cells to the supraclasmatic nucleus and then to a bunch of bunch of different brain areas, but for the purposes of of discussing hormones specifically, it's to to the to this pituitary gland.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:37.119
And the you know the the importance of of that is I guess and the circadian system more generally is emblematic or representative in the in this yin and yang diagram, which is dualistic.
00:38:42.240 --> 00:39:00.159
Um which can necessarily contains blue wavelength light in the context of natural sunlight, and you also need darkness or or light that's absent of large amounts of of artificial light, um particularly in the blue wavelengths and anything made made by by humans.
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:32.240
So, you know, if you knock off melatonin or you turn off melatonin um inappropriately, say because you're looking at screens at midnight and the sun set at 5.30 p.m., then you're robbing the body of of this circulating antioxidant and repair trigger that it needs to orchestrate tissue repair, to orchestrate autophagy and apoptosis, cellular garbage cleaning, that um you're you're dealing with the the trials and tribulations and damage of the day.
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.119
I want to take a quick break to acknowledge the sponsor of this episode, Daylight Computer.
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.639
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00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:56.639
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00:41:14.240 --> 00:41:16.000
Now back to the episode.
00:41:16.240 --> 00:41:39.599
So when we again look at epidemiology and we can see a clear signal for artificial light at night exposure and breast cancer in in shift workers, then you know we have a we have we're getting close to a mechanism because the melatonin or the lack thereof is unable to um essentially help clean up these uh you know premalignant cells.
00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:49.840
And the there's a link to aromatase here, um, and therefore that explains the higher risk of of hormone-sensitive cancers, prostate as well.
00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:58.159
So, you know, we're disturbing hormone secretion, but we're also um inter interfering with the sex hormones.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:05.680
Uh I and to give you another idea about how deep this goes, you know, every organ has these subsidiary clocks in them.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:17.039
Every organ is regulated by the circadian mechanism and is looking for signals like melatonin and cortisol to regulate its local activity and behavior.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:37.440
And again, I'm I'm interested in heart disease, I'm interested in cardiovascular disease and atherosclerosis, and it turns out that the vascular endothelial progenitor cells that heal up vascular and endothelial damage um in the heart arteries and all the arteries, they they migrate under the effect of melatonin.
00:42:37.680 --> 00:43:06.159
So to think that we've got a problem of ischemic heart disease and atherosclerosis and people, the cardiology field is just m monomoniacally focused on lipids and lipid laurent therapy and lipidology, um, like you know, complete horse with blinkers on, um, they're not even thinking about the blood vessel dynamics and the the homeostasis of the blood vessel and what the circadian physiology, the 24-hour regulation of different vessel functions.
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:20.480
So if you can imagine that someone is working a shift work or they're exposing themselves to lots of light at night or they're constantly jet lagged, then um they're never gonna get adequate endothelial and blood vessel repair overnight.
00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:26.559
So, to what degree is that accelerating their their um you know development of heart diseases?
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:49.200
And recently that that mechanistic insight got backed up by some pretty powerful research by um Professor Sean Kane, who we and his team who were using Lux meters, portable light meters, and they compared the top uh 5% of light at night exposure people and compared them to the bottom half of light at night exposure in this cohort.
00:43:49.280 --> 00:44:04.079
And those that got the top amount of light at night had between 20 and 40 percent greater relative risk of coronary artery disease, atrial fibrillation, heart failure, all these different cardiac and cardiovascular uh problems.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.480
So, you know, the the circadian system is is this master regulator.
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:23.280
It's a master regulator of sleep and wake cycle, but it's a master regulator of all the body's functions because the body is evolved evolved and designed to partition different functions at different times of the 24 hour cycle.
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:32.880
And that makes sense, just like a a building um or a mine has uh times where it needs to repair its its mining equipment.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:38.000
I mean, maybe that's not the best analogy because now the nowadays they run 24 uh hours a day.
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:48.159
But the the key concept is is partitioning because you can't Optimize a biological system to be to do everything all the time across the 24 hour cycle.
00:44:48.320 --> 00:45:02.320
So we are simply, when we talk about circadian biology and circadian lifestyle and circadian regulatory behavior, it's simply respecting that design specification to allow the body to do what it already knows what it needs to do.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:03.519
Yeah, that's that's great.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.200
I want to touch on two quick things here.
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:14.800
First, because I know like a lot of people, especially my friends, when I talk to them about this and artificial light at night, the first thing they go to, and you mentioned it, phones, screens, TVs, things like that.
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.920
But it's also just standard overhead light bulbs.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:19.039
It's not just your phone.
00:45:19.200 --> 00:45:23.360
Obviously, your phone is gonna have a huge effect because how close it is to you, right?
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.079
Um, but it is also those overhead light bulbs.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:33.280
So I I think uh just like you know, for the listener, there's there's obviously ways to mitigate this with blue light blocking glasses that are tinted amber.
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.880
There are uh circadian-friendly light bulbs that you can install.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.720
So there's a lot of different ways um to sort to sort of mitigate that.
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:54.960
One other thing I just want to um touch on quickly, and you sort of mentioned this in the beginning, and it again it sort of goes back to our UV, uh UV topic here, is that the DNA re DNA repair mechanisms are under circadian control, right?
00:45:55.200 --> 00:46:00.960
And so you mentioned, you know, UV has the potential to damage DNA and to break to break these bonds.
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:04.559
Um, but we also have mechanisms at play to repair that DNA damage.
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:06.559
Could you like sort of just talk talk on that for a little bit?
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:07.119
Yeah.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:26.480
So it it kind of makes sense that there would be processes that could deal with DNA breaks that occur through living in an environment which necessarily contains ultraviolet light and and other exposures that could potentially damage DNA strands.
00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:43.440
So, you know, DNA repair mechanisms are depend as long as you don't have any, you know, there are certain certain genetic um syndromes that impair DNA repair, and those people, again, have got lowered threshold for developing certain types of cancer, cancers.
00:46:43.680 --> 00:47:06.639
But the the kind of crux of the matter is that those DNA repair mechanisms, these um cancer, I guess, protection mechanisms, like people might know about P53, the so-called guardian of the genome, uh, these these they operate on a circadian schedule, meaning they are optimized to work at a certain time of day.
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:14.639
And their transcription and translation is downstream of a adequate um circadian amplitude.
00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:30.559
And and maybe that's the the key point to to emphasize is that when the blue light is received, it's tr and and it triggers these melanopically active um cells in in the retina, it's actually triggering transcription of clock genes.
00:47:30.720 --> 00:47:42.639
Like it's triggering a gene a cascade of altering gene expression and the genes that it modulates are related to all these different functions, of which prevention of cancer is is one of them.
00:47:42.800 --> 00:48:07.680
So if we are not only we're talking about melatonin, but if we rapidly were always um exposing ourselves to artificial light and and not getting that nice deep circadian amplitude through daytime, day bright daytime light exposure as well, then we're going to impair the function of all the downstream circadian um related transcription factors and and enzymatic processes.
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.320
That's great.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:17.680
You uh so you mentioned, you know, artificial light coming into the eye uh and going in, and you know, we there's a whole pathway in with intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells.
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:21.119
And in those cells, there's a there's a pigment melanopsin, OPN4.
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:23.760
There was uh there was a paper that Dr.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.880
Aboud Bakri mentioned on X that I was looking at.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:28.880
Um he was actually just on Huberman's podcast.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:30.639
I think it's coming out today, so that'll be exciting.
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:40.240
Um but the the the paper was titled Melanopsin, OPN4, is a novel player in skin homeostasis and attenuates UVA-induced effects.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:52.240
Now, this is a paper in mice, and they what they basically showed is that uh OPN4 melanopsin protects against uh um these UVA-induced skin damage.
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:00.320
And so basically these mice without OPN4, these OPN4 knockout mice, their skin becomes more susceptible to UVA-induced DNA damage.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.559
And so my question is I know we also have OPN4 on on our skin, right?
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:19.119
And so then obviously, if this does translate to humans, which this was in mice, but it's pretty evolutionary, con evolutionarily conserved, is that if so we have these OPN4, these melanopsin pigments on our skin, if we see that is helping to protect against UVA damage.
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:28.079
I have heard, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on this, that artificial light at night uh reduces the expression of of melanopsin.
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:38.159
And then sort of like that pathway there, if that if that is true, then does that mean that we become more susceptible to UVA because we have less melanopsin in our skin from the artificial light at night?
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:42.240
Sort of that's this is something I was I've been thinking about the past couple of weeks just reading this paper.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:44.559
So is that something that you have thought about at all?
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.280
Yeah, I mean, I mean, what like what what is melanopsin?
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:50.480
So melanopsin was first discovered in Xenopus.
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:54.480
So it's actually a amphibian uh chromophore.
00:49:54.559 --> 00:50:01.440
It's it was detected in in Xenopus livus, which and found to regulate their pigments.
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:13.119
They're they're actually melanophores, they they've got a a kind of slightly different way of pigmenting and and it helps them adapt uh I believe to the ambient um you know environmental conditions.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:35.039
So it was a little bit weird and odd in many ways and a surprise to learn that as mammals we um you know we have this frog pigment, but really it wasn't when you trace the phylogeny back and realize that these amphibians were uh you know prior to we we we are downstream me uh of of this amphibian evolution.
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:40.159
So, you know, that's what it is, and and it it is maximally sensitive.
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:54.240
So we when we talk about the properties of light sensitive proteins and and chemicals in the in the in the body, we think you talk about things like well, you talk about the action spectrum, which is like the range of wavelengths that that that they get triggered by.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:51:05.360
So the the melanopsin is maximally sensitive at around 480 nanometers of of light, which is around blue cyan uh light.
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:16.320
So um yeah, we they they're a key player in our retina, but we it turned out that they're also present in in our skin cells, in our melanocytes and and keratinocytes.
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:20.320
So the question is, you know, what role are they playing there?
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:25.599
And you know, are they able to feed back into the central circadian mechanism?
00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:28.720
I I I the answer to the second question I think is no.
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:45.119
So what their job is probably doing is is is working locally to help the entrainment of the skin cells in the in the dermis and and in the in the epidermis, uh, and then uh helping the skin to adapt to the time of day.
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:51.760
And I think this is really important because the skin is is a is actually a neuroendocrine organ of itself.
00:51:51.920 --> 00:52:01.360
There was an amazing paper you you probably read, Jonathan, called that um Andres Slaminsky wrote about UV light affecting uh the brain in the skin.
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:08.880
And what he describes in this paper is that the brain is actually acting almost like an accessory pituitary gland or hypothalamus.
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:23.920
It's making all these um melanocortin it's it's signalling in a really unique way, and kind of it makes sense embryologically because the skin is of of um similar embryological origin to the brain and the and the central nervous system.
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:42.960
But essentially what I think is happening is that the the reception or the trigger of melanopsin by blue light, which would happen after sunrise, but potentially before ultraviolet A um approaches, will just simply prepare the skin better for when that ionizing shorter wavelength light appeared.
00:52:43.200 --> 00:52:46.079
And just just again, it's a time-dependent process.
00:52:46.240 --> 00:52:53.119
The body knows when, okay, we've we've got blue, next is gonna be UVA, next is gonna be UVB.
00:52:53.200 --> 00:53:06.079
And it's just a really elegant system of anticipatory response to what it knows is gonna come because for 3.4 billion years of the planet, this is how the process worked, and only now has it been disrupted.
00:53:06.240 --> 00:53:09.440
So, you know, what is the implications of light of night on the skin?
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:20.400
I would say probably um causing local circadian rhythm disruption in the skin cells, maybe impairing things like collagen synthesis, maybe accelerating things like photoaging.
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:27.200
And then the really interesting question is but could could this be potentially accelerating malignant melanoma development?
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.360
Um maybe absolutely.
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.400
Um potential, uh absolutely it's too strong.
00:53:32.720 --> 00:53:38.960
Maybe, interestingly, and we we need to investigate it, but I think there could be could be a strong case for it.
00:53:39.200 --> 00:53:40.240
Yeah, that's great.
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:53.519
Um all right, let's uh let's sort of move down the solar spectrum and go uh, you know, we're we're moving past all the other visible light to the red and infrared, but there's also some benefits of like green light and and all the other things.
00:53:53.680 --> 00:54:01.039
So, you know, there's there's some stuff we can talk about there, but we'll uh we'll we'll skip that for now and sort of talk about uh red and infrared.
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:06.079
And we can sort of like combine those together because I think they have a lot of overlapping um mechanisms at play.
00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:11.599
But uh let's uh yeah, so what is like what's red and infrared doing on a cellular level?
00:54:11.680 --> 00:54:14.240
Um maybe just some of some of the mechanisms.
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:21.680
I know there's there's a lot of there's a lot of really, really interesting research on this, but um, yeah, what is what is red and infrared doing mechanistically?
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:34.880
And then also um I think it's important to sort of touch on this this idea that near infrared light, just beyond the the red visible spectrum, is able to like penetrate the body completely through and scatters all throughout the body, which I think is an important point.
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:36.240
So take it uh take it away there.
00:54:36.480 --> 00:55:03.760
Yeah, so red, no, I think one interesting way of thinking about what red and infrared light is doing is through the lens of of the photobiol photobiomodulation literature, because you know, they perhaps more than anyone have really been trying to understand the effect of of red and infrared light because they can see how it's ha seems to be having this a beneficial uh array of beneficial effects on on a whole bunch of different different outcomes.
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:35.360
The you know the crux of what they they have researched is the effects on on mitochondria and how red light um and and neurofrared light modulate the m mitochondrial metabolism and various parts of the electron transport chain, potentially particularly the fourth complex cytochromic C oxidase, seems to be a very robust red light chromophore, and it's simply improving the efficiency of mitochondrial metabolism.
00:55:36.240 --> 00:56:15.840
I like to look at really practical examples, and I can't think of a better one than to illustrate this than uh Glenn Jeffreys' 2024 RCT, which is very simplistic, but I mean you've just talked about this at length yourself, where it simply shining red light on the backs of of a group group of experimental subjects was able to attenuate the peak of a of a glucose spike in response to ingesting you know pure glucose while up upregulating carbon dioxide production, essentially turbocharging mitochondria to suck uh glucose out of metabolize that glucose.
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:38.720
So the that that's as clear a an example as it you will find for what's probably going on here, which is it's improving mitochondrial function, it's improving mitochondrial membrane potential, it's greasing and and aiding the whole process of of electron transport, it's boosting mitochondrial uh water production at that fourth complex.
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.440
So, you know, the that that's all that's happening.
00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:48.880
That's that's I think the most dominant way of what red is is doing, especially to cells uh at mitochondria.
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:52.159
And then the infrared is probably having a very similar role.
00:56:52.400 --> 00:57:07.360
And infrared is interesting because it seems that when you get beyond uh probably you know seven, eight hundred, nine hundred nanometers, then you know what I believe water becomes one of the most important chromophores here.
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:18.000
So it's it's not necessarily proteins or um you know chromophoric um compounds or in the actual cell, it's actually the water itself.
00:57:18.240 --> 00:57:36.480
And then what what's happening to that water, especially if that water is around moving parts like the ATPAs in uh in complex five, then uh you're you're really helping to aid that again the process of of of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation.
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:45.280
And so the cell is is really operating m extremely you know, how what percentage, maybe 30, 40 percent, is what Professor Fosbury believes.
00:57:45.519 --> 00:58:11.920
So what what I think is in contextualizing this red and inf near infrared is that by photon count, it's the it's the it's the dominant uh photon that's that's actually hitting Earth and and um the the the bulk of this this light that we are that's hitting Earth that we can't see, again past past red, but in the red and infrared, is aiding in uh mitochondrial metabolism.
00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:32.720
And again, to bring it back to metabolic diseases, when we've put everyone in artificially lit sealed chambers and deprived them of the near-infrared and long wavelength spectrum, then your mitochondria necessarily are going to have to work harder to um can to basically get their job done.
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:48.000
And you can imagine that tying back to this idea about we talked about satiety and and the U and POMC, but um what seems to be happening through the the red and near-infrared system is that it's aiding in photomet essentially photometabolism.
00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:52.960
That's how how it's being phrased by by the the leading researchers in this field.
00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:55.280
And that's distinct from photosynthesis.
00:58:55.440 --> 00:59:09.519
Photosynthesis is what plants do using uh visible light to essentially create carbohydrate um chains um using their using chlorophyll and using their you know photosynthetic machinery.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:26.880
But what we're propose what they're proposing is happening with human photometabolism is that it's providing an energy input that's allowing metabolism to occur in a more efficient way that potentially is reducing reliance on on food substrates or electron input.
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:37.599
So you you can think about anyone who's you know, you look at someone who has to work in a sealed chamber with no long wavelength light, and they uh they they are they overweight?
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:41.200
I mean, indoor indoor work is associated with overweight.
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:43.680
Um, you know, there's lots of different confounding factors.
00:59:44.000 --> 01:00:03.360
But I th I personally think that if you deprive the energy generating colony of your body from a key input, energetic input, then it's gonna the body's gonna seek that that energy elsewhere and it's gonna drive food cravings, particularly for readily oxidizable fuels like processed carbs and and sugar.
01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:16.400
So, you know, again, this we could we could basically talk for a long time because the photobiomodulation literature has evidence for wound healing, it has evidence for hair growth, it has you know evidence for eye health.
01:00:16.720 --> 01:00:22.000
But what I like to focus on in terms of that long wavelength spectrum is metabolism.
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:38.000
And I and I really think that if we're gonna get to our biologically programmed um longevity, which is uh you know our our health span, um not only just lifespan, but our health span, then we need neo-infrared light.
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:40.159
We absolutely, absolutely need it.
01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:48.320
Um and haven't talked about melatonin, but yes, that's getting made probably as well by by neo infrared, and you've described that yourself many times.
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:58.320
So yeah, yeah, I I I think this um this sort of built environment topic is really, really important because I mean every single person is affected by it.
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:09.760
I know there's um some there's a stat that uh 93% of uh Americans' day is spent indoors where they're not outside, not exposed to the longer wavelengths of light, right?
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:19.680
Because we have to we have to understand that when we're in an indoor environment with the lighting systems that we currently have, it is pushed all towards the light is pushed all towards those shorter wavelengths of blue light.
01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:22.320
You have practically zero infrared.
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:26.400
So now you're in a blue enriched environment, an infrared starved environment.
01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:28.559
And obviously we're seeing we're seeing damages there.
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:34.960
You mentioned Glenn Jeffries' study on the uh blood glucose regulation with red with red light.
01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.000
I know prior to that study, he did a study with bees.
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:41.599
He started it on bees, he shined red light on bees, he saw a huge reduction in blood glucose.
01:01:41.680 --> 01:01:46.000
He also shined blue light on bees, saw an increase in the blood glucose, right?
01:01:46.240 --> 01:01:56.800
And so that, you know, obviously he didn't, he's I think I'm pretty sure he saw it as unethical to go shine the blue light on the human, um, which is funny because we're uh getting shined blue light all the time.
01:01:57.039 --> 01:02:09.119
Um, but uh and so so I so I so I bring this up because I think obviously, you know, that that study hasn't been done yet where we're shining blue light on the human and regul and checking blood glucose every 15 minutes for two hours.
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:14.960
But, you know, I would hypothesize probably it would it would spike our blood glucose, and that's basically what everybody is doing.
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:15.920
They're eating indoors.
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:24.079
So like I would love if we could just talk a little bit about this for just a little bit more and sort of like because I want people to understand how important this is, right?
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:30.960
Like these that we are living in this indoor environment that's lacking that infrared light, but it's blue, but it's blue light enriched.
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:33.440
So could you maybe like touch on sort of the detriments?
01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:44.800
Because we obviously talked about blue light in the context of uh circadian biology, but how is that blue light um affecting us outside of circadian biology in general, but just being bathed in that blue light 24-7?
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:49.039
I know you you mentioned metabolism, so maybe if you want to touch on that um just a little bit more.
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:55.840
Yeah, I mean the the blue light story is is interesting because the the blue and the shorter wavelengths aren't absorbed.
01:02:56.000 --> 01:03:00.880
They don't penetrate the skin to the same degree that the longer wavelength light does.
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:11.119
So, you know, potentially the effect is going to be only m more superficially in terms of those the direct cells um uh exposed.
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:25.760
But the research that you refer to, which which Professor Jeffrey has, you know, included in in a lot of his papers, um, shone blue light on mitochondria and basically their their um effects or their output was was inhibited.
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:27.920
You know what why is that?
01:03:28.159 --> 01:03:42.480
Um is there is there some kind of like photooxidation or some kind of um uh some kind of detrimental effect that's really being done when you unopposedly shine really high energy light at a cell?
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:43.920
Yeah, I I I think so.
01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:46.159
I think that's that's probably part of it.
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:59.280
Um but the you know the it's really hard to disentangle the effect because when you do put someone in uh a in a blue-lit chamber, you're kind of messing up multiple things at the same time.
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:07.360
You're not only depriving them of near red and infrared, but you're depriving them of the circadian gradient, which should change over time.
01:04:07.440 --> 01:04:10.480
Um, and it's you know the whole system falls apart.
01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:27.119
I mean, I know you asked me to specify um the non-circadian effects, but it does uh bear mentioning that the metabolic organs, the liver, the pancreas, the white, the adipose tissue, the skeletal muscle, the the gut, they're all under circadian control.
01:04:27.200 --> 01:04:38.159
And they're that that's affects insulin sensitivity, it affects glucose handling, and it it affects uh you know t essentially time of day uh appropriateness for food consumption.
01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:59.039
So, you know, when you think to this this chamber, um this uh cubicle with the fluorolights um at 11 pm at night when the body's expecting there to be complete darkness, you you you can imagine that hyperphagia, desire complete hunger is gonna kick in.
01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:09.440
You can expect that hypoglycemia, hyperinsulinemia is gonna kick in because that is the appropriate physiological response to high colour temperature noonday sun.
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:17.280
So the body isn't betraying you, the body is doing exactly what it thinks it should do, given the inputs.
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:34.880
And I think that's a really good way of thinking about disease is um disease is it's it's all adaptive, it's all the body making trade-offs are given absolutely you know horrendous conditions and you know two uh almost equally undesirable uh options.
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:37.280
It's always trying to eliminate damage.
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:39.039
Yeah, no, that's great.
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:41.119
Um, all right, yeah, no, that is awesome.
01:05:41.200 --> 01:05:46.480
And you know, there's also, like you mentioned, there's the subcellular melatonin that's produced in the mitochondria via the infrared light.
01:05:46.559 --> 01:05:50.480
And so there's there's so much more to talk about there, but I think we covered a lot, and that's that's super great.
01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:54.800
Um let's uh, you know, we sort of touched on this here and there, but light on the heart.
01:05:54.880 --> 01:06:00.240
I know you, I know you have talked about this a lot and you have some great presentations, so I'll also link those below.
01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:05.119
But you know, something that happened, I'm pretty sure it was either this year or late last year.
01:06:05.200 --> 01:06:17.680
But the American Heart Association basically came out with this public statement saying that they they put circadian uh rhythm disruption on like sort of their radar for cardiovascular for a cardiovascular risk factor.
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:27.280
And so would love to sort of just talk quickly about like I know we we we did mention circadian rhythms, obviously it has huge ties to uh heart disease.
01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:29.119
You mentioned easy water.
01:06:29.200 --> 01:06:32.079
I had, I had, um, I had Gerald Pollock on my podcast.
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:33.280
I got to sit down with him in person.
01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:34.240
It was unbelievable.
01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:35.039
It was so awesome.
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:36.400
He's a great, great guy.
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:37.519
I had him on my podcast.
01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:38.639
We talked about easy water.
01:06:38.720 --> 01:06:41.680
So if the listeners want to dive deeper into like what that actually is.
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:43.360
They can totally go listen to that.
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:50.559
But easy water, far infrared light or mid-infrared light on the endothelial uh function.
01:06:50.639 --> 01:06:56.159
I would love if you can just touch on that real quick and um and how that ties into um cardiovascular health.
01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:57.119
Yeah, absolutely.
01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:07.920
I mean, the the photobiology of atherosclerosis, I think that's probably one of my hobby horses uh that again the centralized system is completely oblivious to and doesn't seem to be really looking into.
01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:20.960
But the seminal paper that I think, although it was a although it was a embryo, chick embryo study, uh the way it was designed and the way it was carried out, I think mechanistically tells you all you need to know.
01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:25.680
It doesn't need to be more than that, which which is Pollax and his PhD student.
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:30.559
And the title of the paper is on the driver of circulation beyond the heart.
01:07:30.720 --> 01:07:48.480
And in this incredibly elegant paper, they used this chick embryo to demonstrate that when you apply an external light source that contains infrared light, then you can you get flow, you you you get blood flow, irrespective of any propulsion pump.
01:07:48.720 --> 01:07:52.240
So I can take a step back and think what that means for a moment.
01:07:52.400 --> 01:08:23.519
Um what it what it means in the context of cardiovascular physiology is that the system has has been designed to allow uh an external energy input, which the the majority is going to be solar photons, um, in in this these long wavelengths, to drive blood flow through uh veins, arteries, capillary beds to improve the whole process of of venous return and also you know uh arterial supply to to the body.
01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:50.079
Um and what they and Polak explains how it works, but essentially in a hydrophilic tube, you you get the formation of uh these this this water uh fourth phase of water, and look, there's debate in in different circles, and you know, the the the water water research is very complex and the biophysics of water is extremely complex, it's not by any means my area of specialty.
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:53.519
Um and there will be there's people who who criticize Pellax approaches.
01:08:53.760 --> 01:09:39.119
From my point of view, this this mechanistically makes a lot of sense to me, is that by structuring onto the walls of a hydrophilic surface, as in uh your blood vessels or or um potentially around things like red blood cells or um white blood cells or um lipoproteins, is that you you get um essentially charge separation, which facilitates flow and it acts as a repellent in many ways to the blood contents on the um on this layer of of structured or extrusion zone water that sits above the endothelial glycocalyx um and helping to preserve blood vessel um blood vessel health and blood vessel um integrity.
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:41.440
So um what what's the corollary here?
01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:47.440
And and I did spell this out in in my talk um at Regenerate, maybe in 24 you can you can link that.
01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:59.680
But the corollary here is that if you're in full spectrum sunlight, which is abundant in these long wavelengths, then you're you're essentially deloading the propulsion um um function of your heart.
01:09:59.920 --> 01:10:08.159
Um and it sounds like heresy to the cardiovascular orthodoxy and the cardiology orthodoxy, but this is what it seems like.
01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:16.159
And there's uh the the the heart is far from a you know, it does the propulsion, it's not just a pressure propulsion pump.
01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:26.399
It relies on all these different design specifications, probably of which the this infrared acceleration of blood through the easy mechanism is one key, one of them.
01:10:26.480 --> 01:10:43.119
Um and then there's other things uh related to you know this helical band like structure of the myocardium, which is probably vortexing blood to facilitate flow and um you know this this the magnet magnetic field effect of of the heart that's probably playing a role in helping venous return.
01:10:43.279 --> 01:10:52.800
But you know, the crux of the matter is if you're out being outside and you're respecting your circadian rhythm, then that is one of the most important things for long-term cardiovascular health.
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:53.440
Amazing.
01:10:53.600 --> 01:10:56.800
One last really quick thing on uh on light and cardiovascular.
01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.640
I've seen some papers looking at blue light's effect on vasodilation as well.
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:08.480
And we all we we talked earlier UV light, UVA specifically, but you know, you know, you mentioned you also mentioned uh UVB can also play a role here.
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:17.680
Uh role on nitric oxide mobilization, going into your blood vessels, vasodilating your blood vessels, reducing uh blood pressure, improved cardiovascular benefits.
01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:23.039
But can you touch on, I don't know if you if you've looked at any of this research on blue light's effects on vasodilation.
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:34.960
Yeah, I mean, I think I think because you know, we we make these arbitrary distinctions in in in classifications between um the different wavelengths, but really it's it's all happening on a continuum.
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:53.920
And it seems like short wavelength light, again, which is present during the sun up, is really good at at vaso vasodilate dilating and what those effects are or what that is, you know, the reason why is is probably in in many um is to help irradiate the blood volume.
01:11:54.079 --> 01:12:07.199
I mean, there's there's lots of potential reasons, but um, you know, irradiate the blood volume and um you know facilitate uh you know all the circulatory functions that happen again that are optimized during during daytime.
01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:32.079
So uh what what to say about I think you know what w what exactly is happening, again, I'm I'm not necessarily going to claim I'm abreast of all of it, but I think that the key point here is that most of the people, you know, I think the NHANES data from 2014 or 2016 was like 93% of the US have one marker of cardiometabolic dysfunction, of which hypertension is, you know, one of those.
01:12:32.239 --> 01:12:35.359
We're dealing with an epidemic of cardiovascular risk factors.
01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:41.359
We've never had more people indoors um ever in in in living indoor lifestyles.
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:58.560
So let's make the use of the fact that the sunlight is actually giving us blood pressure lowering effects and regulating our cardiovascular physiology um without you know the ACE inhibitor, uh, you know, without taking um, you know, the the M lotopene.
01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:07.520
You can you can get these effects naturally, but you just have to essentially live back in your your ancestral niche um uh to to get these effects.
01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:08.239
Amazing.
01:13:08.480 --> 01:13:12.399
Um sort of to close this conversation, and we've touched on so much stuff.
01:13:12.480 --> 01:13:14.880
I really appreciate you getting deep into this stuff.
01:13:15.039 --> 01:13:21.359
Um you mentioned sort of the three M's of circadian health, maximize, minimize, and mitigate.
01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:31.680
Um if you could like walk us through that framework quickly, because I think it's really it's really great to think about and to sort of uh for like an actionable step for people and sort of framework for them to think about this.
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:46.720
Yeah, so you know, the the it can be overwhelming um when we especially when we drill down into all these technicalities, but thankfully the real world um practicalities are actually um quite quite simple.
01:13:46.960 --> 01:14:24.239
And I just yeah, I call it three three M's, but ri really it's the first M is is just maximize your your natural circadian signals, um which means that you will get out in the in the morning light with as as as as little clothing as you can tolerate um and is is safe because exposing yourself to the ambient con conditions of your area is is the best thing to drive adaptation and to provide informational input into the circadian system about exactly where you are and what time of year it is and what season it is and what time of day it is.
01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:38.000
So maximizing natural circadian signals, get your light and get your skin and eyes exposed, um, don't have anything filtering light in between your eyes and and the sun and essentially be out in that natural environment.
01:14:38.239 --> 01:14:48.079
You know, if you're living in a area of really high UV index, then you dose your your UV, get your UV dose in a in a skin type appropriate way.
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:56.079
Um you can compare the the maximum UV that your ancestors probably adapted to and use that as a rough guide for your UV exposure.
01:14:56.239 --> 01:15:11.359
And then make the most of greenery because the greenery um acts like a really elegant um uh kind of attenuator of overhead UV while also delivering huge amounts of beneficial red and and neo-infrared.
01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:37.600
So maximize your daytime um uh your circadian signals and then minimize artificial light, minimize artificial, artificially lit environments, artificially lit devices, because that that's whenever you're whenever you're exposed to that type of light, your your body is actually trying to synchronize up itself up to um a completely alien source of of of information and and energy.
01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:38.960
And it's not compatible.
01:15:39.119 --> 01:15:42.560
It's not compatible with optimal health, it's not compatible with your biology.
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:49.039
So turn off overhead lighting, turn turn off, turn off devices that are you know close to you.
01:15:49.279 --> 01:15:52.880
Be just really diligent with your your artificial light exposure.
01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:59.920
And then finally, if you can't do um you you've done your best in terms of the first two, then you just you mitigate.
01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:04.880
And there's lots of ways to mitigate, but you know, I'm wearing blue light blocking glasses right now.
01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:10.239
I I mean uh pretty soon I'm gonna be putting on my orange lenses because it's uh time for me to sleep.
01:16:10.480 --> 01:16:21.440
So I'm I'm using the optical properties of these glasses to um minimize my eyes' exposure to blue and green wavelength light.
01:16:21.520 --> 01:16:42.480
That this is mitigation because uh which allows me to still see see you do this interview and you know conduct my life in the modern world, but by hopefully minimizing melatonin suppressing effect of blue light, by minimizing photooxidation of my retina of my lens and and and damage to my retina.
01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:49.760
So um, you know, this is one of the key steps when you can't control your lighting environment, you can at least control what your eyes see.
01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:58.640
And there's other really elegant mitigating steps, things like uh red, you know, ri warmer color temperature bulbs.
01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:18.239
We don't necessarily need to discuss the you know exact minutiae of of optics, but um I I really like lens uh lamps and bulbs that don't emit any any blue light because it's it's a really simple way to to uh facilitate that um that progression into deep sleep.
01:17:18.399 --> 01:17:32.560
And yeah, making intentional choices about indoor lighting using the traditional filament bulb, uh, which is incandescent halogen, because and that's what I use when in in my clinic room.
01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.319
Um I don't have any overhead lights on.
01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:42.319
And someone uh colleague popped the head in the other day and asked me if I was drying paint uh with my with my uh halogen bulb.
01:17:42.399 --> 01:17:48.079
And I was like, no, I've just got a um a complete aversion to overhead LED lighting.
01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:49.680
And I have my window open.
01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:55.359
Um I have a my for what it's worth, I have some warmer color settings on my on the monitor.
01:17:55.440 --> 01:17:58.560
I I wear my blue walkers in front of in front of the monitor.
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.279
I try and take breaks outside as much as I can.
01:18:01.440 --> 01:18:10.079
So yeah, the the 3Ms have maximize natural light exposures and circadent signals, minimize artificial light exposures and mitigate when you can.
01:18:10.319 --> 01:18:13.119
That that is a a framework to work towards.
01:18:13.279 --> 01:18:29.119
Um recognizing that we're not we can't all live in in the bush in a in a in a mud hut or in a in a cabin with firelight and uh starlight and moonlight, although we may may want to and and do so you know recreationally a couple of weeks a year.
01:18:29.279 --> 01:18:44.960
But it's just recognizing our needs, our fundamental circadian needs, recognizing that what the modern world is doing is harmful to that, and just taking small daily actionable steps to preserve um our circadian health and and reap the benefits.
01:18:45.119 --> 01:18:56.079
I mean, uh I I can't go back after not only learning the the the theory and the science behind this, but implementing these circadian hygiene habits.
01:18:56.159 --> 01:19:00.000
Um, you know, you you can't go back once you've experienced it for yourself.
01:19:00.079 --> 01:19:03.119
And I'm sure Jonathan, you'd you'd uh you've experienced the same.
01:19:03.440 --> 01:19:04.079
For sure, for sure.
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:08.399
And you know, I've gotten I've gotten some of my friends on this path and they're they can't go back either.
01:19:08.480 --> 01:19:18.399
So I think that's definitely a common uh thread here that once you once you start, you you can't go back because one you really you see the benefits pretty uh pretty clearly and you see how better you feel.
01:19:18.480 --> 01:19:19.520
So it's uh it's great.
01:19:19.680 --> 01:19:20.960
That that framework's really good.
01:19:21.119 --> 01:19:23.039
Um I think that's gonna be really, really helpful.
01:19:23.199 --> 01:19:25.600
Okay, I have one last quick question.
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:29.760
It's a personal question, so maybe I'll cut it from the podcast, but maybe we'll keep it and we'll see.
01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:31.359
Um uh okay.
01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:36.159
I was thinking about this, and so I like I I go out and sunbathe in my backyard.
01:19:36.239 --> 01:19:40.079
It's nice, I have some good privacy and you know, I sunbathe in in my underwear.
01:19:40.159 --> 01:19:45.680
Um, but that does mean I do have like a tan line around the buttocks and such uh areas.
01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:50.720
Do you think that is there any harm of not, you know, it's very pale over there.
01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:56.480
Do you think there's any harm uh of not getting direct sunlight on on that area?
01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:07.840
I mean, I I'd probably invert the question and think, you know, is w was it natural or normal to have an area covered from solar exposure in our in our ancestral past?
01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:16.079
The there was a recent discovery of the uh of a uncontacted Amazonian tribe somewhere in the Peruvian Amazon.
01:20:16.159 --> 01:20:22.960
I don't know if you ever saw that that footage um maybe about six months ago on the Lex Friedman podcast.
01:20:23.199 --> 01:20:31.680
And it's a it's amazing to watch these people interact with the the Westerners or the the Westernised Peruvians and to see what they're wearing.
01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:49.279
And they've got these fancy headdresses, they've got these fancy necklaces, and they've got these waistbands, but you know, their their genitals, their male genitalia is very much exposed to the the the sunlight, and um you know, and it it it appears to be more pigmented than the surrounding skin.
01:20:49.440 --> 01:20:59.199
So I I think that area absolutely would need sunlight because again, it wasn't pr it was not uh privileged in our in our ancestral past.
01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:18.079
Um so you know, and you you depending on what esoteric uh you know religious text you read, um, there is sunlight powering up various, I believe it, you know, traditional Chinese medicine, or um, you know, there there's a role of of sunlight in in reproductive vigour.
01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:30.640
Um and I think we're there's a bit of research showing the effects of UV light and and you know its influence on testosterone and the male hormonal axes, but I think there's something powerful there.
01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:33.119
Um so so yeah, absolutely.
01:21:33.199 --> 01:21:35.359
I think it's it's actually it's it's necessary.
01:21:35.520 --> 01:21:50.239
Um and and to not get too uh conspiratorial, but you know, you look at you look at how society treats uh hormone replacement and and the diff differing perspectives on male versus hormone replacement.
01:21:50.399 --> 01:22:04.319
If you're a female, then there's you know there's no at every opportunity you're offered at you know um some form of of synthetic estrogen or progesterone, um, obviously in certain cases very much indicated, but the opposite is not the case.
01:22:04.480 --> 01:22:23.199
You you know, a man uh has to go through all kinds of hoops to, especially at least in Australia, to get testosterone replacement and and you know intramuscular testosterone replacement is very tightly regulated by um you know gay, it's regulated by by specialist prescribers.
01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:24.720
Now, um what am I saying?
01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:43.119
I'm I'm I'm not making a comment about um, you know, it's not like I'm promoting that necessarily, and there's obviously risks of and anabolic steroid abuse, but the point is it's it's not a proportion, it doesn't seem to me to be uh, you know, an equal treatment of the two genders.
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:50.720
So um what what I'm saying is that any way to boost testosterone naturally, um, I think it's it's great.
01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:56.319
And a lot of the ways that you can do that um off well, all the ways you can do that are completely free.
01:22:56.480 --> 01:23:00.880
And I I do probably think sunlight um and ultraviolet light is is part of that.
01:23:01.119 --> 01:23:07.520
Yeah, there's a beautiful paper published in Cell looking at uh this effect of UV on rats.
01:23:07.600 --> 01:23:10.800
Um they did some studies also on humans in the same same cell paper.
01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:17.760
I made a video about it, but I'll link that paper down below, UV light increasing testosterone in both rats and uh and humans as well.
01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:26.399
And then there's of course that 19, I think, 39 paper where they took, uh I think it was depressive men, uh, and they shined, it was it was pretty like full spectrum, actually.
01:23:26.480 --> 01:23:32.960
It was like 50% infrared, third, I mean it's like 20 or 30% UV, so higher than what you're gonna get from the sun, and then the rest visible.
01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:39.520
They shined it on all parts of the body, including the genitalia, 200% increase in androsterone, metabolite of testosterone.
01:23:39.600 --> 01:23:46.480
So they didn't test testosterone directly because testosterone was basically just discovered a couple years beforehand, so they probably didn't have tests for it, I'm assuming.
01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:49.600
Um, but uh yeah, so interesting, interesting nonetheless.
01:23:49.760 --> 01:23:52.560
Maybe I'll uh start tanning that uh part of my body.
01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:53.039
We'll see.
01:23:53.119 --> 01:23:57.840
But you know, obviously, you know, be careful people, so don't just uh go out there and start doing that.
01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:01.199
But, anyways, um all right, Max, thank you so much.
01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:03.600
Um, this has been absolutely incredible.
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:08.319
I think we really touched on some really awesome topics, and you describe these things so beautifully.
01:24:08.480 --> 01:24:15.840
I'm gonna link all of your stuff down below in the show notes for people to follow you on Instagram, on X, all your platforms to follow your podcast.
01:24:16.079 --> 01:24:17.279
You have some amazing guests on.
01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:20.480
So I highly recommend people listen to the podcast and your lectures.
01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:26.000
I'll put all the relevant lectures down below for people to listen to if they want to dive deeper in any of the subjects we touched on.
01:24:26.239 --> 01:24:27.760
But thank you so much for this.
01:24:27.840 --> 01:24:29.920
And thank you for everything you're doing in the space.
01:24:30.079 --> 01:24:31.119
It's really incredible.
01:24:31.199 --> 01:24:37.760
It's it's great to see medical doctors who are actually practicing um understanding these effects and and uh and sharing about it.
01:24:37.840 --> 01:24:39.840
So I appreciate your time and everything you're sharing.
01:24:40.079 --> 01:24:41.279
Hey, yeah, thanks, Jonathan.
01:24:41.359 --> 01:24:43.199
It's uh it's a pleasure, great conversation.
01:24:43.359 --> 01:24:51.760
And yeah, it's uh let's let's keep the combo going because uh I think it feels like we only touched on uh a facet of what there could have been possible to talk about.
01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:52.560
So Yes.
01:24:52.800 --> 01:24:53.199
Exactly.
01:24:53.359 --> 01:24:55.760
We'll have to we'll have to do this again for sure.
01:24:56.079 --> 01:24:58.880
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr.
01:24:59.039 --> 01:25:00.480
Max Golhain.
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:09.039
To learn more about his work, find his podcast and access the studies and resources we mentioned, check the show notes in the captions below.
01:25:09.680 --> 01:25:11.680
I want to place a special emphasis on Dr.
01:25:11.840 --> 01:25:13.680
Golhain's online lectures.
01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:17.920
You can access them via his YouTube channel, which is in the show notes as well.
01:25:18.640 --> 01:25:19.680
While all of Dr.
01:25:19.840 --> 01:25:35.600
Golhain's lectures are fantastic, if you want a deeper dive on the beginning portion of this podcast, that is, the relationship between sunlight and cancer, I highly encourage his lecture titled Sunlight and Cancer Beyond Skin Deep.
01:25:35.760 --> 01:25:41.279
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01:25:44.960 --> 01:25:47.520
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01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.319
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01:25:50.880 --> 01:25:54.640
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01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:11.119
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01:26:11.520 --> 01:26:14.720
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01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:19.440
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01:26:25.119 --> 01:26:32.560
Thank you for listening to this episode, and again, keep questioning, stay curious, and take steps towards a healthier life.