Alison Boden, Executive Director for FSC - Free Pornography, Cancel Culture and Filming Kinks (#15)

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This is Red Chicks, and I'm Isabella.
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So through all the career, like all the I think 20 years in the industry or so, uh you uh probably came across different kinks.
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Are there any are there any that stood out?
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Kid me.
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Yeah, no, it's a it's a great question, and almost it's been too long to even remember when things did stand out.
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I mean, I think uh 2004 maybe was my first like ABN show, and um I was walking around the show floor and I noticed there was a gentleman suspended on hooks, you know, through his skin from the ceiling.
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I was like, oh wow, that's different.
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And now that wouldn't even turn my head.
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So um, you know, I wish I had a really good answer.
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It is really, really hard to stand out to me at this point.
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Yeah, I think because you're so long in the industry that it's hard to remember those different things.
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But I I would like to hear more about the men who uh was in a need of, for example, the doll costume who wanted to.
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Yes.
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I I was like when I saw that sentence, I was like, oh my gosh.
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So very early um in my career, I was working for a major um DVD, and uh back then we called them novelties, but now they're known as sex toys or pleasure products or novelties, whatever, yeah, whatever they're gonna call them tomorrow.
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And I, you know, I I managed the the sex toy division, and so you know, that was everything from ordering all the products and deciding what you know went on the site to sometimes stocking things in the warehouse.
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And then when customer support would get you know a really specific question about a toy, they would ask me, you know, how big is this, that kind of thing.
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And there was a really, you know, to this day, it is my one of my fondest memories of handling customer support emails.
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But a gentleman, I want to say he was from Germany, but it honestly doesn't matter because this is a kink that you know is enjoyed by people around the world, he emailed our support team to ask what our tallest sex doll or blow up doll was because he would like to uh cut it open and wear it himself, right?
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As sort of a a suit.
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And I that was that was a head scratcher, right?
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Because um, sex dolls are are the the blow-up dolls in particular are not generally made to even be human-sized, like they're a little bit smaller, they're they don't tend to uh size.
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Yeah, like I you wouldn't even, you know, I don't know, this like it it's it's an impossible question.
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But then, okay, so I really wanted, you know, obviously I'm gonna go above and beyond.
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So I'm like, okay, uh let me contact some manufacturers.
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Okay.
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Let's see, you know what they have to say.
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Yeah, they probably know, right?
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I think they have to be surprised also by your questions.
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Like, oh, wow, okay.
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The question perhaps, but they should at least have the specs.
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So I um I believe he was asking about a doll in particular.
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I don't recall which one it was, but I'm almost positive that it was uh manufactured by Doc Johnson.
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So I reached out to a contact there and asked, Hey, how tall is this doll?
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And also what is your tallest doll?
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And kind of explained the question.
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And they said, Oh, let me get let me get back to you.
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So went back, found out that doll was only about five, two or three, but they recommended a particular doll that was molded, I think, after Chasey Lane, who uh I hope a lot of people still remember.
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She was an amazing porn star, because Chasey herself was actually quite tall.
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I mean, you know, I guess five, seven, five, eight.
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And so they made the doll kind of to be as tall as she was.
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And he thought that was his best bet for finding a tall doll.
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So I said, Okay, we have a recommendation, we carry that doll.
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It's still not gonna be tall enough for this guy.
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And so I was kind of just wracking my brain and said, Okay, look, here's here's what I found out, and also um, given the material, you may be able to find like a bicycle tire patching kit where you could extend, uh, like cut off the feet and then like patch around and then kind of make it big enough.
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Yeah, maybe.
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I hope it worked out.
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I never heard back from him, but I I I like to hope that he was a satisfied doll customer after that.
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Yeah, I'm I'm very curious what he needed it for, and yeah, is it like you know, sexual prank?
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I mean, I know that there are folks who just sort of wear doll masks.
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That's not necessarily sexual, but you know, I mean I mean that's why not have so many fetishes and so many kings, you know, that I I probably know only of a few.
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And I I remember when I started working in the industry, also like okay, I'm like, you know, from a very Catholic background.
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So when I started working here in Amsterdam in a company that was producing porn that is producing porn still, I was like, okay, I knew nothing about sex, I mean as much as I learned during biology classes, you know, because we didn't talk about those things.
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And then, you know, and then I have heard of all those like fetishes for now.
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Now for me, it's pretty normal thing.
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Someone tells me this, I'm like, oh yeah, I have heard of that.
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But by then, like 10 no 12 years ago now, it's like you know, it's it was like, I don't know, balloon fetish, ping fetish.
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Oh, I was also surprised by feet fetish, of course, yes, because it was like feet, you know, so simple thing, you know, and that to be honest, that's the one fetish I still can't wrap my brain around.
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Because like like I get most other things.
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The feet fetishes.
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Yeah, the feet fetish.
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I don't quite get it.
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And I and I I respect it.
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I love foot fetishes, they're you know, an incredible patron of our industry, and I uh have no I don't like feel squicky about feet fetishes, but it's the one thing that I'm like, I can't imagine, I can't get into the headspace.
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Yeah, yeah.
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There are so like it looks so for me.
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Sometimes it's really hard to get to the headspace of other people with their um specific or special um sexual pleasures and what they need to get sexually aroused.
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But I'm like very uh curious and always like trying to keep an open mind to know that okay, well, everyone has sex in a different way.
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And I think you know, adult industry is the place where those things uh can get explored more and more, and I think we can show it on the screen, and then people can feel like oh, there is a representation of something I like.
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I can see it on the screen, so you know, and they can enjoy it and they can feel more like oh it's I'm not so weird.
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There are other people who are doing those things also, you know.
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So yeah, it's important.
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Yes, it is, it is, but Alison, tell me a little bit more about the place where you were growing up and how was it for you?
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So, you know, like family-wise intimacy in the family.
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You know, I I grew up in a I would say no longer Catholic family, right?
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So certainly, you know, I I I went to a couple years of Catholic school, and then my mom pulled me out, and I don't know that either of my parents had ever been practicing, but you know, family.
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And really, by the time I was cognizant of religion, really, they were both kind of like, it's not real.
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My dad would call the Bible the greatest work of fiction ever written, and say, Well, it could be more readable, but I know what you're saying, Dad.
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Um, so yeah, for me, you know, what I do, or of course, you know, I became interested in all this stuff as a teenager.
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Not that I was like, hey, mom and dad, let me tell you about what I read in the Dan Savage column uh this week.
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But you know, it was a very accepting kind of household.
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I never I was really lucky in that, you know, when I decided, oh yeah, I'm gonna open my own sex toy business, my parents were like, that's great.
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And then a little less lucky when my mom was like, Oh, let me make an orger, and I'm like, oh.
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But even now I'm kind of like, well, you know, everybody's gonna get a good deal too.
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I mean, yeah, no, and of course, of course.
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I think it was really cool, like from your mom.
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Let's make it 100%.
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No, and and so my parents are actually uh super great with what I do.
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They've always been super supportive.
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Uh, when I worked for kink.com, you know, my parents are are from the Midwest, so when they came out to visit me in San Francisco, or at least my mom did, uh, I got to take her on a tour of the armory.
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It was a whole lot of fun.
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Can you tell me what's the armory?
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The armory was a building that uh kink.com owned between about 2007 to about 2017.
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I'm not sure the exact uh years, but it was a former National Guard armory that had been sitting abandoned in San Francisco for a number of years.
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And I believe the overall square footage was something in the 200,000 square foot range.
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So it was it was enormous.
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Um basement four, you know, there were there were four or five-ish floors.
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The entire basement uh was made up of over 30 cinematic sets that were built by our in-house um set department that a giant shop.
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There was you would not be able to tell the difference between these sets and a Hollywood set.
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They were really amazing.
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And you know, the armory itself, yeah, it was amazing.
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Yeah.
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The armory itself was built over top of a natural underground stream known as the Mission Creek.
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Um presumably because it was a military uh installation.
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So you could actually go into our basement and see the Mission Creek, which was a whole lot of actually it was really gross.
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Like you wouldn't want to drink it.
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That's but it was it was cool that it was there.
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Um less cool when it flooded, which it did every time it rained.
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Um no heat, no air conditioning, because it's a reproduction of a Moorish castle.
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Yeah.
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But um just a really weird, fun, incredible place to work.
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Uh you know, several floors, well, one through three or so were kind of mostly offices and or um they used to be I I guess you wouldn't call them barracks, but but they were like officers' quarters.
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So if performers came from out of town, they could basically stay in our little I don't know, um the plane essentially.
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And then the the upper floor, uh the fourth floor was was actually styled as an Edwardian mansion.
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And so I mean it had everything, you know, the tin ceilings, the brocade wallpaper.
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Uh it was a really, really cool place.
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And I think you know, if people wanted to see pictures, they could go literally to theupperfloor.com.
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Um, but yeah, yeah, just a and it was like I did it.
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Were there any offices where you guys just were working as a you know post-processing the footage, uh paperwork, uh whatever you do else on the computer, and also a shoot places where all the shoots were happening?
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Yep.
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So the first and third floors were mostly where the offices were.
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Um originally all of the all of the staff for the most part were all on the first floor, and then um, you know, as the company grew, we needed more space, so we renovated the third floor a bit.
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But you know, the technology team, the marketing department, uh the editors, and um all the post-production folks, plus the production folks they had to have somewhere to sit when they weren't shooting.
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Um most of the filming was done in the basement in on one of those sets, but there were, you know, obviously the upper floor, there were shoots up there all the time, plus like a couple little spots around the building um that were sets as well, because it's amazing how many nooks and crannies you have in a giant castle like that.
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Yes, yeah.
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So you could you know be walking to the employee lounge to get a an espresso, and you know, often, depending on what floor you're on, you know, you could run into a model, you know, in the hallway and met a variety of them, and often you have to help people deal with this espresso machine because it was like a restaurant, you know, Hollywood, and I had to be taught how to use it a bunch of times.
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And so when people come in, be like, oh, I don't know how to do this, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, I have that too often.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I I yeah, I need sometimes information about like coffee machines because here at home we just have just molespresso, that's it.
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But the way you go somewhere and he's like, oh fuck, or do a portion, how does it work?
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You know, just one coffee, simple coffee.
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Well, yeah, how much can you put in there?
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How do you get it?
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How much which cup do you take?
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Because sometimes they have like three different sizes, and what if I put the wrong one and it floats out of the cup?
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And it's like shit.
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So yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the pain.
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The feel.
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And how did you get into selling your own sex, well, not your own, but selling the sex toys?
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Because I guess you were taking buying them from someone, someone and reselling, or did you produce them by yourself?
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No, that would have been cool, but I am not that talented or knowledgeable.
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Um, so where I grew up in uh Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, we did not have sort of the sex positive kind of what they would have termed like woman-friendly sort of sex tour stores.
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It was um literally the name of the store is Adult Mart.
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Okay.
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And it's a very large, you know, box type store, or you'd have like places downtown that were you know small and had been there a long time and were not the friendliest places to go.
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And so uh my partner Karen, uh my business partner Karen and I met in college, and we both had a secret dream of opening up you know the Pittsburgh Good Vibrations style store.
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And on the 30th anniversary of Roe versus Wade, uh we actually decided, all right, we're going into business together, we are business partners, and we you know did the paperwork, I set up the website, and um off we were.
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So in order to buy these sex toys to sell them, yes, we had to figure out you know who were the product distributors nearby.
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And we're lucky on the East Coast, there are two.
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Um, there's East Coast News and um trans world news, which I didn't understand why they were called that.
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It is a historical thing where they would be called whatever it is news because they didn't want to be busted for obscenity.
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Uh okay.
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For selling, I don't know, whatever.
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That's why they call them novelties as well.
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They're not for just to look at.
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It's just a funny dick straw.
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So we set up those those relationships and ordered our first, like, went through the catalogs.
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Okay, we're gonna pick out the best.
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That must have been fun going for through the catalog also.
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Super fun.
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However, catalogs can be deceiving, and so we're like, you know, you're paging through, and like, oh, let's get this.
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And we and we we picked out these two what we thought were maybe like five-inch, like green, sort of, you know, just very plain dildos that look nice.
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We get them, and they are maybe seven to nine inches long, much bigger than we thought.
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Shit.
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Look totally different, and that's when we learned about jelly smell.
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What's the jelly smell?
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So back then, and probably you can still find them, um it was not it was very, very common for for dilatos, especially the ones that that are kind of like clear, like clear-ish.
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Yeah.
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And they would call them jelly.
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And and what they were telling you was that they were like a a crappy material.
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They they probably contained what are called phthalates, okay, which I think were even banned in Europe at that time, but took the US quite a while to come around.
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And they just they smell awful, they smell like not quite burning rubber, but chemicals.
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Yeah, I know what you mean.
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Yeah, they get slimy because they're leaching chemicals out of them, it's quite disgusting.
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So it was very educational.
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Yeah, no, I can imagine.
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And apparently you were you started doing when you were selling the vibrators, uh wait, novelties.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Novelties.
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You also did some workshops with people.
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Oh, yeah, so correct?
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Yeah, it's really common in in the US the zoning laws are made so that essentially people can keep businesses they don't like away from their homes or schools.
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So there are laws that say if you have an adult business, oh yeah, if you have an adult business, it has to be at least a thousand feet from a school, a church, a bar, another adult business.
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It's a whole list.
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And it turned out that in Pittsburgh, that meant you could literally be in an old warehouse next to the river.
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That's it.
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Okay.
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So we couldn't find like a space that we could actually open up shops.
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So what we did was uh in-home parties.
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So you would book us, we would come to your house with a big suitcase full of toys.
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It turned out that you know, and I sadly I don't know that this isn't still the case, but a lot of people aren't taught much about their own anatomy or how how it works.
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Yeah.
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And so we ended up doing kind of a lot of educational stuff, like, okay, here's the clit and here's where these things are, and this kind of thing you might want to use for this, but if you have pleasure, you know, that you that isn't clit focused, here are these G spot perhaps things, or just figuring out ways to um let people know what they can experiment with, where they might try to use these things, and how.
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And then they can, you know, actually look in touch and see the thing.
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Obviously, we're not selling the floor models or the demo models, yeah.
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But yeah, so we'd show up, sell you sex toys at your house, and then um that was how we did it.
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Yeah, but you know, and as you say, it was very edu educational.
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And for many people, you know, and I think till today, now still people uh keep learning in different ways.
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Like it's sometimes bizarre ways.
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Well, for me, as I'm saying, like for me, it was like I got into adult industry working in this company, and then I'm like, oh.
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Okay, uh, let's have a conversation about sexual pleasure.
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Yes, let's communicate.
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I think the aspect of communication was one of the biggest things that I kind of you know figure out.
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:08.640
I I became more open to talk about it.
00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:17.120
And uh it became very easy for me to vocalize what I like, what I don't like, what I would like to try.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.600
Uh it became easier for me to ask questions like this to my partner.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:32.880
So, you know, but I I I still know that um there are many people who are not uh who are not talking openly about sexual pleasure in the relationship.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.080
I'm not saying going to random people outside there and talk about this.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:41.519
It's just within relationship or being honest with yourself, what you like, or trying to experiment.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:48.480
Because uh, you know, like when I was growing up, uh touching yourself, masturbation, like that.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.000
No, no, no, no, no.
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:56.559
You you don't do those things that's not healthy, that's God forbids, you know, all these things.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:06.559
And so I had very bad relationship with uh understanding what I like sexually with my own sexual pleasure, you know.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:18.559
So it took me a long time to actually uh learn and to change it, to go on the other side of like, oh, actually it's okay to touch yourself, you know.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:19.920
It's even great.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:20.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:42.080
But you know what I mean, you know, it's actually so weird that we we growing up in all those like restrictions, but also when you go to the other side now, like when you have everything so easily available, that may also be a little bit too much, or we may interpret this badly, you know, like with pornography, you know.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:44.240
Should pornography be free?
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:46.799
Yeah, should pornography be free?
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:54.240
Like, how can we protect the let's say the kids from watching it without really understanding what they consume?
00:24:55.519 --> 00:25:04.720
Yeah, it's um I mean that's a a lot of really important subject matter in there, right?
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:20.559
Because communication, we're not taught even that, well, when we're being taught that sex is dirty and shameful and God hates it, unless you're married to a person of the opposite gender, um, you know, we internalize that.
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.000
We internalize that shame.
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:38.480
And so we don't understand our bodies, we don't know what we like, and then you know, the culture is moving in in a direction where it is very easy to find porn, or there are lots of sex shops you can go to.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:54.480
But if you are coming from a place where you're not sure about any of it, walking into that, you know, whether it's walking to watching a video that you you know you don't know anything about, yeah, or a store, it can be really overwhelming.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.200
And when it's just like, here's all the things you can use on yourself.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:01.680
You're like, I don't even know where to put that, what it's supposed to do.
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:24.640
You know, it's it's we're not doing a very good job as a society of helping people understand sexual pleasure, accept it, love it, yeah, and and and understand how to do it better, you know, how to communicate with a partner.
00:26:25.360 --> 00:26:29.440
That's just not a thing anybody teaches.
00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:46.640
And so I what disappo what really disappoints me is that as these changes, you know, in society where things are really available, there's free porn everywhere.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:55.519
The at least in the US, the culture has gotten very recently very, very conservative about that kind of thing.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:03.039
So you know, sex education has been banned.
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:20.400
Essentially, you know, I was really lucky when I was growing up because when I went to school, we had like a nonprofit organization locally that came in and actually talked to us about sex and condoms and the all the things you actually need to know.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:26.480
And that put me on a good footing.
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:35.920
It you know, I I was able to protect myself and have pleasure and you know be uh a well-adjusted person for the most part.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:47.519
But if we just don't teach kids anything, or we teach them that everything is bad and pornography is addictive, and you know, it it it really kind of screws you up.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.440
And there isn't a good way.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:54.319
I mean, there are lots of there are lots of places you can go to learn, but you have to know about them, right?
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:07.840
Like so I mean you could go to you know check out O school or but if if you if you are just new to this whole thing, the first thing you're probably gonna do is go to something like Pornhub and Yeah, exactly.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:08.240
Exactly.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:09.680
That's fairly advanced.
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:10.799
Yeah.
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:19.600
And and what's your um take on porn being available for free?
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:27.360
Like yeah, I was I was in the industry when that started.
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:33.759
So kind of the early mid-2000s, and I am not a fan.
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:39.440
Um I'm not it's not to say that porn wasn't free before then.
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:48.559
There was a little bit, you know, people have to entice you or explain, show you what you were buying when you were about to buy porn, that's fine, whatever.
00:28:49.120 --> 00:29:05.600
But the rampant piracy and essentially the change in the mind of a consumer that, oh, porn isn't something I should pay for, destroyed the industry.
00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:13.360
It put many, many, many businesses into bankruptcy.
00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:28.799
It hurt everyone in the industry, from you know, of course, the people who who own the studios, but like the performers who are in your porn, they need to get paid.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:30.160
That's not free.
00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:30.640
Yeah.
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:46.400
Every person on that crew, the videographer, the PAs, the director, the folks who were doing the post-production and editing, like these are real jobs, and essentially their work was completely devalued, and many of them lost jobs.
00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:54.720
And frankly, it it made it easy for not just adults who didn't want to pay for it, but kids to see it.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:02.640
So if I had a time machine, yeah, I might go back and but do you think it will change?
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:13.680
You know, like do you do you think what what what uh we as the producers, as people who are in the industry, should do to change it?
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.120
Because I also think it's not great that there is free porn.
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:23.920
I mean, and I even on Twitter sometimes I see a lot of different clips which are so explicit.
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.680
I'm like, why would you put this for free?
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:35.519
I mean, wouldn't you prefer that uh people don't see it for free, but they actually go to your website, pay for it, and then see it?
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:37.600
Like, what is the logic behind that?
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:57.680
And I still I I wonder if it's like if if, for example, if the performers would be getting the royalties from all the footage, would that also change their way of like, you know, okay, I'm not going to put anything for free because if they actually go to that website, buy the product, I get the royalties.
00:30:58.080 --> 00:31:01.440
So, you know, it's like a circle that's encouraging itself.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:05.279
But what what's your take on, like, I mean, what do you think?
00:31:05.360 --> 00:31:13.680
Is it possible to at some point to get rid of this free porn and to um what steps would we would have to take?
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:20.640
I think unfortunately the economic incentives are not there, at least.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.519
And what what incentives do you have in mind?
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:24.080
Sorry.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:44.400
So for an individual producer, let's say I um I'm a creator and I make my own porn with my friends, and then I post it on OnlyFans, and then I put it on Pornhub because I want people to know about it, because that's where people go.
00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:57.440
The reason that I'm doing that is because there aren't a lot of other places to get traffic from to entice new buyers.
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:30.640
And being banned on most social media platforms, the the difficulty of kind of like setting up your own um allison porn.com, let's say, if I had a website, it's a big hurdle and it's expensive, and so you are a bit trapped because the way that the industry has moved, all of the eyeballs are on a porn hub or a different tube site.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:53.920
And so, in order to sell your porn at all, you have to play this game, and what it what I think it would take would be you know every single producer saying, Nope, we're not going to do this anymore, but it might be too late because now the people who own the biggest tubes also own the biggest studios.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:55.680
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:03.680
So it's it's um it's unfortunate, but I don't know if there's a way to undo it.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:23.759
And also, you know, um still people are so much unaware of um different production companies that uh this sell very in my opinion, very good uh quality-wise porn and also the production-wise, so ethically produced porn.
00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:34.720
Uh they sell it, they they have websites set up and all the system in place, they don't give away any content for free unless it's stolen, you know, then yeah, that's another story.
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.720
Uh, but still people don't know about those sites.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:48.559
The the first thing that people come across is Pornhub, it's yeah, only fans, yes, because this is what we talk about often, what we hear all the time.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:57.680
And you know, when you type in Google some questions about sex, videos from Pornhub pop up as first, you know.
00:33:57.840 --> 00:33:59.600
That's all ex ex-hams.
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:04.720
X hamster, X videos, yes, I mean they're humongous.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:05.279
Yeah.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:25.039
And you know, that's a bit on Google because they I don't know what they did to make the legitimate porn sites rank low, and these mostly they're they're bad tubes a lot of the time, like sketchy pirate tubes that come up.
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:34.559
You know, they used adult companies and and producers are barred from using most other forms of marketing and advertising.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:41.119
We we can no longer advertise on Google, we can't advertise on almost any website.
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:47.360
So the places where you can market your product are very, very limited.
00:34:47.759 --> 00:34:50.000
Yeah, and you have to be very secretive about it.
00:34:50.159 --> 00:35:03.119
If you do it, like you know, I uh if I like when I was placing some ads on um social media, we really had to go like, okay, do not use the word porn, change it for adult industry.
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:06.879
Do not use the word sex, because that's also not good.
00:35:07.279 --> 00:35:23.679
Um and there were several other things, you know, and and it just gets banned or like the content doesn't reach many people because you know, like sometimes you see it, you post something and you're like, okay, it has such a little amount of views.
00:35:23.839 --> 00:35:24.559
What the heck?
00:35:24.879 --> 00:35:26.480
And uh shadow banned.
00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:27.839
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:33.279
But it jumps, you know, it goes up and down, yeah, because and it's very, very frustrating.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:53.279
And do you I mean I I came across two, I think, two companies that are trying to um or two businesses that are trying to create something like a social media platform, but for uh people who do an exploit who have an explicit content.
00:35:53.439 --> 00:36:00.639
Uh, do you think those companies have a chance to um well in some way at least they cover?
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.679
Because I think it's super hard, you know.
00:36:04.399 --> 00:36:12.799
It is, and and it got a lot harder in 2018 when the US passed Sesta Fosta.
00:36:13.439 --> 00:36:40.559
Can you tell me more about that for anyone who so the law in the US prior to that was that you can operate a social media platform or any website really, and when people come onto it and post their own comments, speech, videos, whatever it is that that your users are posting on your website, you're not liable for that.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:41.519
That's them.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:53.119
And you know, if they do something bad, well, you should definitely report them to the police, but it's you're not going to jail because someone came on your website and did something wrong.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:37:09.439
And what Sesta Fosta did was say, yeah, but if it promotes sex work, which we define as trafficking, but if it promotes that, now you don't have that exception.
00:37:09.759 --> 00:37:23.679
Now the government is going to come after you because you are essentially aiding in a trafficking conspiracy by letting your users be sex workers.
00:37:23.839 --> 00:37:35.759
So sex workers have been, it was never easy, but now completely deplatformed because no company wants the risk of the federal government prosecuting them.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:58.239
So as Twitter uh has disintegrated in the couple of weeks now that Elon Musk has owned it, you know, I think there's been a lot of conversation around, you know, what could what could we do to make sure that you know sex workers aren't totally deplatformed or have another place to go?
00:37:59.359 --> 00:38:02.000
And it's dangerous to do it.
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:04.000
It's it's not easy.
00:38:04.879 --> 00:38:17.599
Do you think like uh Elon taking over uh Twitter will that be any better for um people who post adult content who do sex work or rather the opposite?
00:38:17.759 --> 00:38:19.599
Or maybe there will be no change.
00:38:20.399 --> 00:38:34.159
I think well, he has talked about trying to introduce only fans style functionality, which is ridiculous, but I'll come back to that.
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:57.199
Honestly, I think that everybody on Twitter is probably uh in the same boat here, which is that the when you fire most of the staff who keep the website running, the experience is going to degrade, and it's unclear to me if Twitter's going to be good for anyone going forward.
00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:17.519
But the reason I particularly scoff at this idea of Twitter only fans is that I doubt very highly that Elon Musk has thought about the things that all adult businesses know they have to do.
00:39:17.839 --> 00:39:49.279
For example, I don't know that he's given thought to how he's going to comply with 2257 regulations, or how he's going to ensure that none of the content being posted doesn't violate Visa and MasterCard's rules, or they're unwritten BRAM rules, which is you know, don't post anything that Visa MasterCard would make them look bad, which is its own like bizarre, because how do you define like what makes you bad?
00:39:49.359 --> 00:39:49.839
Yeah.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:50.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:51.359 --> 00:39:56.960
And they can be cherry-picking because oh, it just they fall into this category, they made us look bad.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.759
Well, then happens all the time.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:00.559
Yeah.
00:40:00.879 --> 00:40:04.639
And and I think that people underestimate how difficult payments are.
00:40:04.799 --> 00:40:10.480
So it's if I want someone to pay me for a product I'm selling, that's fairly easy.
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:12.079
I just save a merchant account.
00:40:12.319 --> 00:40:12.639
Yes.
00:40:12.799 --> 00:40:15.279
They they buy a thing, I get paid.
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:27.839
When you're talking about people paying you, and then you paying the thousands and tens of thousands of people who then you know get a cut of that, that's hard.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:29.599
That's difficult.
00:40:29.839 --> 00:40:49.439
Now we're talking about you know, not just the functionality, but money laundering laws, which are also very tight and can be problematic if there's any whiff of like someone says, oh, well, this is actually going to a trafficker.
00:40:49.919 --> 00:41:00.159
So that's just so if uh royalties would be in place, this would be kind of an applicable thing or law to look to, yes?
00:41:00.319 --> 00:41:02.079
The money laundering law.
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:02.879
Yeah, okay.
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:09.279
Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's really difficult to deal with money.
00:41:09.439 --> 00:41:17.759
There are lots of laws in every country, and it gives me a headache, and I don't even deal with payments very much anymore.
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:31.039
And just the idea that you would have thousands of people that you have to verify their age, that they are the ones in the content, that they you have to now store all of their personal information because you verified their age.
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:37.279
You now have a copy of their IDs, their legal names, and you have to pay them somehow.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:40.319
I just I don't see it.
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:53.599
Yeah, I have heard that like I I I have listening to a talk and they said about that implementing those royalties that will be incredibly hard.
00:41:53.759 --> 00:41:55.759
And now I understand why.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:04.719
Um and you know, I also remember my experience of opening a bank account, you know, like all getting a loan for the house.
00:42:05.359 --> 00:42:10.399
Actually, some banks banned, I mean, straight in my face.
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:18.079
Actually, they said, Well, you work in adult industry, so therefore um we cannot, it's too risky for us to give you a loan.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:20.000
I was like, how the fuck is this too risky?
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:27.199
It's I mean the Netherlands, it's sex work is legal, you know, it's like come on, what's going on?
00:42:27.439 --> 00:42:30.159
And so uh it was really hard, you know.
00:42:30.319 --> 00:42:34.719
And I asked a lawyer, I'm like, can they do this?
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:44.480
Can they uh deny me a loan uh for the house just because of the my place of work, which is a legitimate place of work?
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.759
And she's back then she said, no, they cannot.
00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:49.599
That's illegal for them to do it.
00:42:49.839 --> 00:42:54.000
But you know, it's like I'm not going to run and sue them, I'm just fine different days.
00:42:55.359 --> 00:43:02.239
You know, and we're talking about Netherlands where some of those things are um accepted, you know.
00:43:02.399 --> 00:43:04.960
I'm not saying they are illegal, but they are accepted.
00:43:05.839 --> 00:43:08.079
And it's still very hard.
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:16.399
It's a really, really significant problem around the world and for everybody in every part of the industry.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:20.079
You know, if you're a performer, it's really bad.
00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:24.159
If you're a sex worker, and if you're just a maybe you work for a company.
00:43:24.399 --> 00:43:32.960
If they figure out your bank figures out that you're being paid by a known pornographer, unfortunately you could lose your bank account.
00:43:33.279 --> 00:43:33.759
Yeah.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:35.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:44.079
And the same with PayPal, like they take all your money if they figure out that you do anything related to adult industry, whatever money you have there, they would just keep it.
00:43:44.399 --> 00:43:58.639
You have to be especially concerned when you're using um any kind of app like PayPal, Stripe, uh, Venmo, all of those things, because they're not even operating under the same rules as a bank.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.879
Like the bank has to at least give you your money back when they close your account.
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.279
Those companies don't.
00:44:05.439 --> 00:44:13.439
And so your your funds are very unsafe, you know, if you're using sort of a peer-to-peer um money transfer app.
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:25.599
And and frankly, that's like one of the biggest, you know, one of the biggest things that I'm working on with the Free Speech Coalition where I'm working now, is trying to address that.
00:44:25.759 --> 00:44:36.639
Like it is discrimination, it is unfair, and we have to, you know, make sure that legislators are aware of it.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:48.960
Explain that honestly, if if you want to stop sex trafficking, not allowing legal sex workers access to banks is a very, very bad way to do it.
00:44:49.359 --> 00:44:50.159
Yes, yeah.
00:44:50.319 --> 00:44:53.599
It's like they want to also like you know, banning sex work.
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:54.960
Yes, like this is not.
00:44:55.359 --> 00:45:00.799
Going to resolve anything, it will be actually even worse for people who decide to get into it.
00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.000
Because you know, I'm thinking it's like, okay, we we can the when we are like okay in Europe.
00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:13.199
Well, each country is different, but more and less 18 years old, you can decide for yourself, you can do 21 years old or 18.
00:45:13.279 --> 00:45:13.599
I don't know.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.359
In US, I think maybe it's 21.
00:45:15.839 --> 00:45:16.639
It's 18, yeah.
00:45:16.799 --> 00:45:17.439
Yeah, 18?
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:18.960
Okay, well, then 18 years old.
00:45:19.359 --> 00:45:21.279
You can't drink, but you can be in porn.
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:22.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:22.399 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah.
00:45:24.319 --> 00:45:27.759
Yeah, the age of consent, that's another bizarre thing, you know.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:35.839
In some countries, you can consent to having sex, not in front of the camera, but having sex at age of like 14 or 15.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.719
That's legal for you to consent to.
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:44.719
But appearance in adult films, it has to be at least 18 years old.
00:45:44.879 --> 00:45:49.679
And I'm like, and then you tell you know about alcohol, 21 years old.
00:45:49.839 --> 00:45:57.199
I'm like, but what is the age that actually a person can uh meaningfully make a decision?
00:45:57.359 --> 00:46:12.960
Because you know, if you consider the brain development part, it's all this cortex part of the brain, it's apparently needs you you have to be around 25 years old for it to be fully developed, or something something similar to 25 years old.
00:46:13.359 --> 00:46:14.399
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:30.960
Um and so can you make decisions before that than 25 years old, or you shouldn't, you know, and why there are all those different age categories for having sex, appearing in front of the camera, drinking, you know, it's like so.
00:46:31.759 --> 00:46:36.960
I mean, if any of it were logical, I mean, I don't think it would look the way it does.
00:46:37.279 --> 00:46:43.759
But there's also, you know, there are very conservative values that say you can't even question that.
00:46:43.839 --> 00:46:47.759
Like asking that question would freaks people out.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.399
And all you're saying is, hey, science.
00:46:50.799 --> 00:46:52.960
Yeah, and I'm asking questions.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:59.039
I just would like to know, and maybe if we have a conversation on this topic, we can learn something from each other.
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:09.439
And do you think um, you know, because obviously now uh there is a lot of talk also about porn being educational.
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:13.759
Um and do you think porn can be educational?
00:47:13.919 --> 00:47:16.639
And if yes, how do we do it?
00:47:16.799 --> 00:47:19.519
Or do we at all go this direction?
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.159
This one I'm probably shouldn't answer.
00:47:27.439 --> 00:47:31.279
Just because um is that the question the hard question?
00:47:31.839 --> 00:47:47.839
Yeah, I mean well it's see, I have a I have an opinion on it, but I I don't I do know that I could get uh quoted by Nikosi or one of the bad things saying that sex or porn is educational and we should give it to children, and they're they've been doing that lately.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:50.719
Yeah, but you know, I don't think so we should give it.
00:47:50.879 --> 00:47:51.679
This is the thing.
00:47:51.839 --> 00:48:05.199
I I mean that I I think you may get inspired by porn in your like when you have sex with someone and you saw something, maybe let's give it a try.
00:48:05.439 --> 00:48:26.799
But I think pornography is not showing everything that happens before the shoot, you know, like we don't see those conver that's why I said that I was actually lucky to be working in adult industry, seeing everything what happens behind the scenes, because then you see those conversations with the performers.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:33.759
If it's a good company, they will have a conversation about consent, paperwork, SCI testing, all that yes.
00:48:33.919 --> 00:48:38.639
But you don't see it on in in the in the films, yes.
00:48:38.879 --> 00:48:48.960
And right sometimes those films are they don't have to be the exact way how we have sex uh you know at home.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:51.279
Like sometimes it's a fantasy.
00:48:51.839 --> 00:48:52.799
Well, that's the thing.
00:48:52.960 --> 00:49:23.199
I think that we're you know, as an industry, we've really we really try to sell the fantasy when that's great, and and you know, everybody should be able to do that, but I also think you're right that having the experience of being on a set really did shape how I feel about um what porn really is, because it's not this isn't a documentary, right?
00:49:23.759 --> 00:49:26.079
This isn't you know how sex works.
00:49:26.319 --> 00:49:58.799
And what I was really hoping to do at some point, but didn't get a chance yet, was to make more documentary style porn because for me, I thought it was really good to know like what all the circumstances were surrounding the production, like knowing that people are having those conversations and seeing you know, between a scene, you know, we're doing aftercare, we're putting on a robe, everybody's kind of checking in, like, let's get some snacks.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:08.480
And I think you know, knowing A, it makes you feel a little better knowing that, like, oh yes, this this is uh good labor conditions, I don't have to worry about that.
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:53.039
Check, but also I think it's a lot more real um when you see people a little bit outside of the performance space that isn't for everyone, and certainly not every performer would want to be involved in that, but you know, there there is a real I think need to show sex in all of its facets, you know, and and it's not you know always what looks great on camera, and I think there have been lots of people who have tried to varying degrees of success, you know, but it's not gone on in sort of a mainstream way, so the money isn't there always.
00:50:53.279 --> 00:51:17.439
But I think definitely for for adults getting to see what sex really looks like, what it actually means, and get inspired to do things, but maybe you know, in a little bit more of a naturalistic way where it's they show you what it takes to do anal.
00:51:18.879 --> 00:51:19.199
Exactly.
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:20.480
Holy crap.
00:51:20.799 --> 00:51:24.639
Yeah, thinking that it's just so easy to like you, you just slide in.
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:31.279
Yeah, without asking, you just no loop, no asking, you just pop it in.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:34.000
No, like really not.
00:51:34.319 --> 00:51:46.159
This is the thing, and I I you know I sometimes wonder how um much it it's in the responsibility of the producer.
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:57.039
Does it make sense to influence the values that we show on uh on the screen, or is it more ideal idealistic uh approach?
00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:04.719
Yes, it really interesting question, one I've basically struggled with for 20 years.
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:12.239
It's hard to say that it's anyone's particular job to you know not do what they're doing, right?
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:16.879
If you're well, there are certain people who shouldn't be doing what they're doing.
00:52:17.919 --> 00:52:24.719
But that's because they're abusing people and not because they're making porn in a way that is too fantasy uh oriented.
00:52:25.759 --> 00:52:36.159
I wish that there were more market incentives to make corn where I mean, even just showing, hey, everybody uses lube.
00:52:36.799 --> 00:52:40.799
You're not less than because you use lube.
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:46.559
There's nothing about your body that isn't uh producing enough juices.
00:52:46.799 --> 00:52:50.799
You just use lube, it's it makes everything better and uh more comfortable.
00:52:50.879 --> 00:52:51.359
It's great.
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:51.679
Yeah.
00:52:51.839 --> 00:52:57.919
Use lube, but it's not, you know, it's not sort of in the fantasy realm, nobody shows that kind of thing.
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:08.079
And also, you know, like getting into that space of like, okay, like, you know, sex doesn't happen within five seconds, it actually takes a little bit of effort to have pleasure for everyone involved.
00:53:08.319 --> 00:53:10.559
So, you know, and you we don't see this.
00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:11.919
Yeah.
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:13.519
I'm not saying it's wrong.
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:15.439
Look, I'm not saying it's no, yeah, that's the thing.
00:53:15.759 --> 00:53:17.279
This is the thing with the values.
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:30.239
Like, I uh there are different forms of sexual pleasures, yes, and some people will find some forms too extreme for them, and that's fine.
00:53:30.799 --> 00:53:45.599
And you know, but then I'm thinking it's like, shall we just care more about the values that we put in, you know, like how we present women or different like different people, how we present them on the screen.
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:55.759
But then again, you know, if we have like a domination scene, well, it's how it is, you know, it's it's it's a domination scene.
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:56.480
Yeah.
00:53:56.719 --> 00:53:57.039
Yeah.
00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:00.480
You know, so and things aren't always how they look.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:06.960
You know, it can seem like somebody is in extreme pain, but and they may or may not be, to be honest.
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:17.839
You know, at at Kink, you know, on our hog tide set, it looks like a wooden floor, it looks rough, and then you know, people would be kneeling on it, and then you know, for that reason.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:24.239
But that was actually uh a foam floor, so that it wouldn't hurt people's knees too bad.
00:54:25.839 --> 00:54:34.960
There's a little bit of movie magic, but and you know, there are people who are making really great representative porn.
00:54:35.439 --> 00:54:39.839
The first name that comes to mind is pink and white, Shine Louise Houston and Gisley.
00:54:39.919 --> 00:54:51.919
I think they are definitely more on the side that we're talking about, which is a diversity of people and kinds of pleasure and showing, you know, more of the reality of it.
00:54:52.079 --> 00:55:04.399
And then you know, there's sort of on the other side of that spectrum, like super glossy, you know, sex on a hotel pool roof or whatever it is.
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:07.199
And there's places for both of those things.
00:55:07.919 --> 00:55:22.879
But and of course, there's like dungeons, because if many people like that fantasy, but not a lot of us have created a you know medieval dungeon set in our home because we like it that much.
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:26.000
But that's cool that people get to see that, it's fun, right?
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:33.919
And you know, you try to create BDSM scenes that are a lot more domestic, like what could you do in your own house?
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:39.279
Yeah, especially if you rent your apartment and can't install eyeballs in your ceiling, for example.
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.719
Yeah, I'll hang someone on the other ceiling, you know, on the page.
00:55:44.319 --> 00:55:46.159
It's difficult, it's expensive.
00:55:46.319 --> 00:55:46.639
Yeah.
00:55:46.879 --> 00:56:23.279
So I mean, it's it's there's a whole spectrum of ways of portraying sex, and especially to go back to the idea of tubes and free porn, a lot of the folks who are are doing things that are not, I don't know, the glossy or just very basic mainstream quote unquote content aren't really participating in that forum and don't want to for very good reasons.
00:56:24.399 --> 00:56:28.799
But then it's you know, there isn't an excellent way to find them.
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:33.519
Unfortunately.
00:56:34.399 --> 00:56:42.159
You know, I I look at it like also like when we see different forms of sexual pleasure, some more extreme, let's say, in porn.
00:56:42.399 --> 00:56:57.119
And um I look to it like this that you know, when you go to mainstream cinema, you're watching Matrix on a big screen, you're not going to repeat that jump of the roof or you know, jump over through the wall.
00:56:57.519 --> 00:57:06.079
It's a fantasy, you know, it's not something you're going like you're not going to repeat that at that point, you know, like as soon as you leave the cinema.
00:57:06.319 --> 00:57:13.039
Same with porn, you know, not only is everything that you see is directly that you're just going to repeat and do it.
00:57:13.279 --> 00:57:17.839
There is like, you know, a little bit more safety around that, ask questions, etc.
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:27.759
Um, but what uh in your opinion, what values are out of the I mean shouldn't be shown on the screen?
00:57:28.399 --> 00:57:34.639
Or forms of sexual um, well, let's say it's pleasure, but I don't know if then would be pleasure.
00:57:35.839 --> 00:57:37.519
Yeah, sexual experiences, let's say.
00:57:37.919 --> 00:57:40.079
Yeah, sexual experiences, that's a good one.
00:57:40.719 --> 00:58:01.919
I am personally, and this is me speaking for myself, not any of my former employers or current employer, but personally I am a very um as long as you are not hurting someone in a way that they do not consent to, or a kid or a dog, you know, like there's no animals, no kids.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:07.519
The really basic, like respect consent.
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:15.039
And as long as everybody kind of wants to be as long as everybody wants to be doing it, I don't actually see a problem with portraying it.
00:58:15.919 --> 00:58:21.599
It may not even be something I would be comfortable watching because it would make me feel crappy.
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:31.039
Um, but I don't think we can we can decide that some fantasies are better than others.
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:40.000
I think our problem is that when people see porn, they don't recognize that it is a fantasy and there is movie magic.
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:57.279
And it's a real problem now, especially, you know, after the big scandal around Pornhub and the claims that they were showing, you know, they were they were leaving up abuse material.
00:58:58.319 --> 00:59:08.960
If you simply look at a movie, and right, it's the Matrix, you're not going to say, oh man, I hope that person, I mean, they clearly were very grievously injured.
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:09.439
Yeah.
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:29.119
You know, but when people watch porn and they see something, you know, like a BDSM scene or something that's a little rougher than they personally are comfortable with, they assume that what's happening on screen accurately portrays what's happening, which is not the case.
00:59:29.359 --> 00:59:40.239
You know, I kink we had very extreme appearing scenes and certainly extreme scenes, but you only do those with people who like that.
00:59:40.799 --> 00:59:47.279
It's not even very fun or sexy if someone's like, oh, I really hate being tied up and having these nipple clamps on.
00:59:47.359 --> 00:59:49.039
Like it doesn't make for a good scene.
00:59:50.399 --> 01:00:10.319
But there isn't like a there isn't an understanding in the general public that, and it comes back to education, I think, that this is this is a movie, it's not a documentary, it's not you can't assume anything about the way it was made or the people involved just by watching it.
01:00:10.639 --> 01:00:13.679
It's not the instruction for you to go and do it, you know.
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:15.519
It's certainly not that either.
01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:17.039
Exactly.
01:00:17.359 --> 01:00:22.799
And do you think um people can consent to bodily harm?
01:00:23.919 --> 01:00:25.519
Define bodily harm.
01:00:25.759 --> 01:00:26.960
Yeah, exactly.
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:30.480
Because uh, you know, I'm thinking sometimes MMA.
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:34.879
Yeah, people go punch each other and fuck, that's bodily harm, yes.
01:00:35.359 --> 01:00:49.199
Yeah, and then in porn, um you will have spanking, yes, let's say choking, or some more extreme uh breath play, some more extreme uh fetishes or kinks.
01:00:49.519 --> 01:00:53.599
Um and I wonder like, can people consent to that?
01:00:53.919 --> 01:01:07.519
Well, I I from my limited understanding, uh there is a lot of precaution taken when it comes to king scenes and different fetishes scenes.
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:24.879
Um, and there is a lot of involvement, a lot of talk about consent, how to do it right, what's the slowing down word, what's the uh stopping word, you know, safe words, or safe touch, I guess, because sometimes you may be gagged and you cannot really say a word.
01:01:25.359 --> 01:01:29.839
So, how do you indicate say stop something?
01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:39.439
Um but yeah, I I just I I have heard that a few times from a flu a few lawyers, and I don't know what to think about this.
01:01:39.519 --> 01:01:45.199
Is there a limit what we do on the sets and um how to define it?
01:01:45.759 --> 01:02:09.199
You know, I I've asked myself that a lot as well, you know, and I think that so I I used to play contact sports, I was never an MMA fighter, but I played rugby for one time, and anybody who plays contact sports or you know boxes or whatever will tell you it's a lot of fun.
01:02:09.359 --> 01:02:14.719
And how dare anyone assume that you don't you're not able to consent to do it?
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:19.919
And in general, I think people can consent to a lot.
01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:34.719
Um as long as they are are fully informed about you know the risks involved and what they're doing, like as the first story I told was a guy hanging from meat hooks from the ceiling.
01:02:34.879 --> 01:02:46.159
Like that was performed by a professional who knew how to do that safely, and on a person who desired it and um was able to handle it.
01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:51.839
I would not personally would like you know like to have meat hooks stuck into my back.
01:02:52.319 --> 01:02:54.319
So I wouldn't consent to that, right?
01:02:55.199 --> 01:03:14.719
So when when I I worked for kink, I was really impressed by just watching filming because what you're not seeing is how much care is going into paying attention to those little cues.
01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:22.960
I mean, we had very specific, and you can still find them uh if you go to kink.com slash consent, very specific rules.
01:03:23.199 --> 01:03:29.119
You know, if somebody's fingers are getting too cold and blue, that means that their circulation is being cut off.
01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:30.319
That's dangerous.
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:33.839
And you never ever want to put someone in in danger.
01:03:35.279 --> 01:03:37.519
So maybe there's the line, right?
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:46.719
You can't consent to being put in a dangerous position that could like injure you in a way that can't be fixed.
01:03:46.960 --> 01:03:47.279
Yeah.
01:03:47.439 --> 01:03:50.879
Um that's why you don't do neck, you know, ties.
01:03:51.439 --> 01:03:52.079
Yeah.
01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:54.960
But you really don't, yeah.
01:03:55.439 --> 01:04:12.159
Well, we chose not to even, even if you know, there are very skilled people who could do, you know, a tie around the neck that would not necessarily like it wouldn't be holding weight, and therefore it wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't actually put that person in danger.
01:04:12.319 --> 01:04:19.519
But in a lot of most circumstances, we said, you know what, let's just not even show that because we don't want to encourage people to do it.
01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:23.919
Would it be irresponsible to show it?
01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:27.199
I think so, but would I say it's it should be banned?
01:04:27.359 --> 01:04:28.480
No, I can't say that.
01:04:29.279 --> 01:04:32.960
Maybe someone's really information around, you know, like I don't know.
01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:34.399
It's it's you know what?
01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:35.919
Do you provide more information?
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:37.199
But will people read it?
01:04:37.439 --> 01:04:38.559
Will people watch it?
01:04:38.719 --> 01:04:45.919
If someone wants to just wank off and is sexually aroused, they are not going to read some extra information.
01:04:46.319 --> 01:04:48.639
They just want to see the scene.
01:04:49.679 --> 01:05:30.319
And yeah, also how I I think you know there is a place for education generally around uh porn, um, and it doesn't mean showing to people pornographic scenes, but it's more about asking questions and starting an open-minded conversation with anyone, like even with kids, you know, as I'm saying, have those conversations with, I don't know what's the age, what's the appropriate age for kids to start understanding those things, but at some point I think it's important to have those conversations about porn, about sex, about being intimate, intimate with another human being.
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:34.879
And instead of just saying this is bad, this is wrong, don't do it.
01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:35.919
Let's ban it.
01:05:36.799 --> 01:05:39.759
Yeah, I mean, sex is part of what it means to be a human.
01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:40.399
Exactly.
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:43.759
And we can't tell people that that's wrong.
01:05:44.399 --> 01:05:51.039
So we really ought to tell them, you know, how to do it in a way that is safe and keeps them healthy and happy.
01:05:51.919 --> 01:05:52.319
Yeah.
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:56.559
And what uh what's your idea of ethical product?
01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:09.679
Oh, I mean I think that that can mean a lot of different things, and I think over the years a lot of people um have done it their own way.
01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:11.679
I can only speak for myself.
01:06:11.839 --> 01:06:12.159
Yeah.
01:06:12.319 --> 01:06:30.719
Um, and to me it means that you are working with people who are of sound mind, so they are not on drugs, they are able to consent to what they are doing, they're not being pressured to do anything at all.
01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:38.319
Ideally, they are actually turned on by whatever it is they're doing in the scene.
01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:44.079
You know, if if you are hiring someone to do an anal scene, it's better if they like anal.
01:06:45.439 --> 01:06:46.399
Exactly.
01:06:46.799 --> 01:06:49.119
You know, uh for everyone.
01:06:49.439 --> 01:06:56.239
Um I think being fully informed about exactly What is expected.
01:06:56.319 --> 01:07:06.960
And I think this is, you know, kind of labor rights kind of stuff, but you should know what you're being hired to do ahead of time and decide whether or not that's for you.
01:07:07.359 --> 01:07:15.199
You should have the right at any point to say, you know what, I actually can't or or don't want to do this.
01:07:15.439 --> 01:07:16.639
Can we do something else?
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:21.679
Or it turns out that I'm uncomfortable with this entire scenario.
01:07:21.919 --> 01:07:22.639
I need to go.
01:07:22.799 --> 01:07:25.759
Please pay me for the time that I spent.
01:07:26.399 --> 01:07:28.719
You should be able to choose who you work with.
01:07:28.879 --> 01:07:35.359
You should be able to, you know, vet the people who you are going to be placing yourself into a vulnerable situation with.
01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:39.599
That all seems really basic to me.
01:07:39.839 --> 01:07:41.199
Like table sticks.
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:45.919
And as you said, like a basic labor law rules.
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:58.079
Because yeah, I recently was talking to someone and I said, like, look, it's it's all of this what I'm just saying to you, which is made more and less the points that you just made.
01:07:58.319 --> 01:08:02.879
Um you would expect this in any work environment.
01:08:03.919 --> 01:08:18.880
And now point out to me people who in any industry, not we're not talking now about sex industry, but out of the sex industry, point me the companies who are playing by those rules because I don't know many.
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:20.399
I really don't.
01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:26.880
So you know, and then people just sticking with porn because I think I don't know why.
01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:34.720
I think maybe because it's about sex and just some people feel so ashamed about that, and but it just speaks about them, you know.
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:48.399
Like if you're ashamed of your sexuality, of being intimate with another human being, I mean, I think you should dig deep into who you are and you know to know yourself a little bit more instead of attacking other people, right?
01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:50.239
Yeah, definitely.
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:59.600
And Alison, because you've been in adult industry for 20 years and you worked as a CEO of King.com.
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.480
My gosh, 20 years is really a lot.
01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:26.399
And uh you are now an executive director of FSC, and I would like to know why you are doing all this, why are you so invested in the industry and do so much of amazing work, and also what motivates you?
01:09:26.639 --> 01:09:32.960
Because it's it's not an easy job, you know, like it's going hitting the obstacles every single day.
01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:36.000
Well, thank you very much for the compliment.
01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:39.920
And yeah, no, no kidding, it's difficult.
01:09:40.079 --> 01:10:05.679
Um I think there is something about me and probably a lot of the folks that I've met in this industry that drew me to it, and it's it's not just sex because sex is great and it's a cool thing to you know work with for a living, but you know, it's still a job.
01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:18.559
For me, it it's long been about a subject that people I think unfairly treat badly in our society.
01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:32.720
I think it's ridiculous that there's this anti-sex, I mean it's a culture that hates sex, even though sex is great.
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:42.800
So I think as a young person I was very sort of fired up by that, like guys, this is unfair and it harms a lot of people.
01:10:43.519 --> 01:11:04.239
It it really harms everyone, but especially you know, marginalized people, women, sexual minorities, like it's not good for anyone, and I, you know, as I've long been a an abortion rights activist.
01:11:04.319 --> 01:11:13.760
I think I just am drawn to a lot of the maybe maybe it's something about like the things other people don't like to touch.
01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:17.519
Like, oh, that's too I I'm not squeamish.
01:11:18.079 --> 01:11:35.199
And I think that the the rights to your own body to do what you want with it, to um create art, which you know corn is art.
01:11:35.679 --> 01:11:50.880
I'm sorry, it really isn't and the idea that that you know we are classifying one type of expression, sexual expression, as different from all the others, as bad as let's ban it.
01:11:51.039 --> 01:11:59.199
I mean, it's just it's so it's so anatomy to who I am, and I think it's the same place where the abortion rights activism comes from.
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:02.399
It's like, hey, who are you to tell me what to do with my body?
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:17.760
Yes, I completely just to pop in for a second, but I have recently have had two podcasts where um I don't know, maybe came across one was with Kenny West, and I think it's Kenny West.
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:19.039
Yes, yes, I think so.
01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:31.519
The Kardashian guy from you know, and he was like going on and on about it, like you know, how like he's against abortion, how many kids die because of uh abortion in the US.
01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:34.079
I'm just like, are you fucking kidding me, dude?
01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:42.000
Like you you have a stack of money, you have you will never ever worry about what you put on your plate.
01:12:42.559 --> 01:12:48.319
Neither your kids or wives, you know, because you probably like I think he has many of them.
01:12:48.479 --> 01:12:54.800
Um and you know, and that's not bad to have many, like if you decide to have many partners, that's fine.
01:12:54.960 --> 01:13:04.479
But you know, but it's like if if you're so judgmental about uh the rights of women, like you're never going to carry that child.
01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:18.239
And so think think about you know, women who are like either forced to carry a child that's going to die as soon as she gives birth, or it's bad for her health, but the child is fine.
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:25.439
In Poland, you're forbidden to have abortion if it's bad for you, but the child is still okay.
01:13:26.079 --> 01:13:26.960
That's a sick.
01:13:27.279 --> 01:13:40.319
You know, I mean it's you know, they make decisions, same about sex work, and I feel like they don't involve people who are actually doing the work and don't involve.
01:13:40.559 --> 01:13:44.720
I mean, I I even don't understand some women are just against abortion.
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:47.760
I was like, are you like, why are you like this?
01:13:47.920 --> 01:13:51.599
Like we we have the right to decide about our own body.
01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:53.760
That's it, simple, like this.
01:13:54.960 --> 01:14:00.399
And so I worked for an abortion clinic um when I was in college for several years.
01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:11.840
And it's not unlike porn in that people imagine something very different from what it really is when they talk about it.
01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:19.840
It's people from all walks of life, all ages, life circumstances.
01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:31.599
No one is making the choice lightly, and it's not it's not an optional choice.
01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:55.599
If that's something that you have to do, whether it's because you are physically unable, emotionally, financially, the idea that you would be forced to carry a pregnancy that you can't have is is just so contrary to every idea of what it means to be a free person.
01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:56.720
Yes.
01:14:57.199 --> 01:15:02.639
That I I can't even imagine.
01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:19.279
Like I can imagine why people think abortion is wrong, but I think it's mostly um from a place of ignorance and largely a place of chosen ignorance.
01:15:19.359 --> 01:15:41.199
They don't want to know, they don't want to understand other people, they don't want to deal with the idea that other people are actual human beings that are just as valuable as they are, um, and so their lives would be impacted by a pregnancy different the way from the way your own might, and that's also valid, it needs to be respected.
01:15:41.519 --> 01:15:47.760
Um I worked in all different roles at the clinic.
01:15:48.079 --> 01:15:54.079
I was front desk when people came in after being harassed by protesters.
01:15:54.720 --> 01:16:04.079
I was in the recovery room making sure, you know, checking blood pressure, making sure people were, you know, drinking some water, giving discharge instructions.
01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:17.359
And I was in, you know, I did some coverage in the area where post-abortion the product of conception is properly disposed of.
01:16:17.519 --> 01:16:30.399
And so I have with my own eyes seen an abortion, and the things that are really important are always comfortable.
01:16:31.519 --> 01:16:41.039
It's not it's not like a fun experience, but I also know that my patients were there because they had to be.
01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:44.720
No one just chooses this, it's not a lot of fun.
01:16:46.079 --> 01:17:00.239
So just taking away people's fundamental human rights, whether it's to sex, to abortion, just to determine their own what happens to their own bodies.
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:04.159
That's why that's why I'm in this industry.
01:17:04.399 --> 01:17:14.800
I really feel like the attacks on sex and women's autonomy, and I mean, you name it, every marginalized person.
01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:22.159
They often sex work is the the canary in the coal mine, as they say.
01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:25.760
When they come for us, no one is there to defend us.
01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:28.479
But then that it doesn't stop there.
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:29.039
Yeah.
01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:33.359
And it's important to me to be here to defend it.
01:17:33.679 --> 01:17:40.960
Because it's important to people to be fully realized sexual beings.
01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:51.199
And how what steps do you take like personally to uh you know I'll say stay sane?
01:17:51.279 --> 01:18:01.439
Because you know, doing hard work, doing uh doing the work you do, as I said, it's not easy and it takes a lot of mental effort.
01:18:01.599 --> 01:18:12.559
I mean, sometimes maybe it's fun, you know, when you have customers asking for uh the size of the doors, but um, you know, I think it's mentally hard.
01:18:12.639 --> 01:18:33.519
I I remember for myself, you know, uh dealing, for example, with the performers who wanted to remove their content, and each time they explained extensively why and dealing with those cases was really um mentally hard for me.
01:18:34.159 --> 01:18:40.960
Um and so how do you uh care about take care about your mental health?
01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:45.679
How do you take care about staying you know sane and healthy basically?
01:18:47.199 --> 01:18:49.119
I wish I had a good answer for you.
01:18:49.359 --> 01:19:07.760
Right now I'm kind of burning at both ends because um well because it's important and it's also an economically different difficult time, so the FSC you know doesn't have the resources to hire a bunch of people to do all the work that needs to be done.
01:19:08.319 --> 01:19:12.159
Someday I uh would love to take a vacation.
01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:16.880
Exercise is a good thing to do.
01:19:17.039 --> 01:19:19.679
I um you know I have a punching bag.
01:19:22.000 --> 01:19:25.279
But I could probably be taking better care of myself.
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:27.920
Well, I think exercising is super important.
01:19:28.000 --> 01:19:39.119
I'm not I'm actually like I I like if I don't go to the gym or even like we have the punching bags that actually it's I wouldn't be able to hang it anything on my ceiling.
01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:42.479
So no bag, no human hanging up that.
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:55.439
But uh you know, like ex I I need to go like now I'm a little bit sick, but generally I go like three times a week to the gym because you know, just I don't know, it helps me to cope.
01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:59.760
And yeah, I just feel better or going for a run or for a walk.
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:05.119
Yeah, it's great getting back in the nature and away from a computer.
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:07.359
Yeah, definitely.
01:20:07.599 --> 01:20:10.720
Um, Alison, thank you very much for the talk.
01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:19.359
I I think that's a good time to finish uh the conversation here, but I enjoyed it very much.
01:20:19.519 --> 01:20:21.119
Do you have any questions?
01:20:23.279 --> 01:20:24.800
I have a thousand questions for you.
01:20:24.960 --> 01:20:30.000
You have a fascinating background, and I know that we don't have time to ask all of them.
01:20:30.239 --> 01:20:42.960
Um this has been phenomenal, and I really appreciate how you approach topics that I don't think a lot of folks are talking about.
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:47.119
So just one question if you don't mind isn't mine at all.
01:20:48.079 --> 01:20:49.679
Why do you do this?
01:20:50.720 --> 01:21:05.039
I actually was listening your answer, and I I was thinking to myself that I can relate with this, you know, to this, what you said, because I think I just care about people.
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:46.559
I care that everyone have their basic rights to do what they want as long as it's not harming another human being, and uh as everyone who is involved in it are okay with it and you know are consenting to it freely, then uh you know, I would like for people to do what they want and to not feel shame or to not be hiding with what they do, to not feel like they cannot talk about important well, important topics like sex, but also about day-to-day things like their jobs, you know.
01:21:46.800 --> 01:22:00.319
It's like people have a lot of assumptions, and I I'm still sometimes you know jumping to assumptions, I hope less than I was doing that when I, you know, let's say 10 years ago.
01:22:00.720 --> 01:22:20.639
But I also want for people to be able to have like open-minded conversation because I feel like we're living in the council culture moment, like when whenever you have an opinion or you say something, everyone will judge you, and either you will be on their side or you won't.
01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:24.000
And if you are not, then you are the worst person ever.
01:22:24.319 --> 01:22:29.840
And I don't think that this is any helpful or healthy approach.
01:22:30.159 --> 01:22:36.800
We need to learn to talk about different topics with people who have different opinions.
01:22:36.960 --> 01:22:37.599
It's hard.
01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:45.119
It's hard to not get frustrated, angry, or you know, like I I'm the first one to be getting frustrated about the things.
01:22:45.439 --> 01:22:59.760
But then I try to remember that everything I do, I do because I want everyone to deserve the like the basic rights, the basic right to be intimate with another human being, to enjoy their life.
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:06.639
And I guess it's also helping me to like you know understand myself a little bit better.
01:23:07.039 --> 01:23:08.159
So, yeah.
01:23:08.720 --> 01:23:09.920
That's so important.
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:28.000
Um, giving a forum for people to have real conversations about difficult or disagreed on topics and like a safe space is it's really rare, and I really appreciate the work we're doing.