Five Generations, One Workplace feat. Florence Potter and Richard Spencer

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Welcome to the ApsCo Australia Podcast, Recruitment Down Under.
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In this episode, we dive into one of the most fascinating shifts in today's workplace.
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For the first time ever, five generations are working side by side.
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What does that really mean for organisations, leaders, and teams?
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Our host, AppsCo MD Leslie Hawsborough, is joined by guests Florence Potter, founding director of No Umbrellas, and Richard Spencer, founder of Page Inc., for a thoughtful and practical conversation on intergenerational working and how businesses can unlock the full potential of their multi-generational workforce.
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Let's jump in.
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Good afternoon, Richard and Florence.
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Welcome to our podcast.
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How are you both?
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Very well, very well.
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Great to be here.
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Great, thanks, Leslie.
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Thanks for having us.
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You are welcome.
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I think for the benefit of our audience, it would be great to give a little bit of context about you both and the work that you're doing, and I guess how you have found yourselves to be in the place that you are right now.
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Richard, I'm sure some of our members will be familiar with, is the founder of AgInc and also the brains behind a partnership that APSCo and AgInc have launched this year, the Age Inclusive Recruiter.
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And Florence is the founder of No Umbrellas, which is which is a great name.
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I love the name.
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So Florence, I might start with you.
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And if you could just tell us a little bit about how it how it came to be, and also where you've come from and your story up until today.
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Yeah, so I'm um I sit in an interesting generational bracket.
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So I see myself as a bit of a cusper, um, a Gen Z but also on the kind of millennial cusp as well.
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So I use the word slay ironically and um still remember VCRs, razor scooters, um, life pre-internet.
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Um, I was working in not-for-profit, for-profit, and then uh most recently big four consulting, and really found there was a disconnect, I think, between the grads and uh senior leadership and management and your colleagues, and this kind of conversation being happened, happening very separately, and wondering if there's a space that we can actually bring this conversation together, bringing people into a room, facilitating um questions that really kind of try to uncover how we currently work, question how we can work better together.
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Um, and so that was kind of what where I came from.
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I saw there was a huge staff turnover, a lot of silent um quiet quitting, um, increase in sick days and that being inverted commas, um, burnout and how how do we kind of change the way that we're currently working.
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I think a lot of the time we have kind of blanket management strategies, but um trying to find the solutions from the teams.
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And as an external consultant and facilitator coming into Teams, we've just had huge success in really uncovering uh challenging those generational stereotypes, which we'll probably you know we'll definitely dive into, but trying to understand individuals and and how we can work better better together.
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Fantastic.
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Thank you.
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Um, Richard.
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I um have uh quite a long background history of kind of working in recruitment marketing, and as such, um have been talking about or throwing around the phrase aging population for uh 25, 30 years.
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Um in all honesty without kind of really deep understanding of what it really meant.
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Um, but but contextually kind of positioning the fact that as an old as a global population we are going to get older and older and older through to I think 2065.
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Um and then um very randomly in a in a conversation actually at a Melbourne Cup event a year or so ago, um, I started talking to a chap who was experiencing age discrimination at work.
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And it's the first time I've really spoken to anybody face to face and personally in and and understood how significant an issue it can actually be, both I guess at a macro and microeconomic level.
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And then putting that together with the aging population.
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So our problem with age discrimination and our and our coming problem with the aging population, putting the two together, felt that actually we were approaching a quite significant cliff from an employment perspective.
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Um, and nobody was really talking about it.
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So it kind of felt like there was a there was a gap there that that needed to be filled in terms of both awareness, education, transparency around the conversation, and ultimately some action about how we we can be better at um uh employing and retaining people aged over 45, 50 years of age.
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Yeah.
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Um just digging into your word action there, and when we look at, I guess when you look at your businesses when they're in action, um, what does that look like?
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What do you actually do when you're on the ground working with companies?
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Florence, I might start with you.
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Yeah, so I think I think first of all, it's about acknowledging there is an issue or a problem.
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Uh, a lot of the time, I think that can be defined by senior leadership or management, um, but actually trying to unpack that um at a grassroots level, uh especially when it comes to larger companies, um, but all sizes.
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Um, we we run collaboration workshops, so we bring research and research research from all over the world, and the thing with research is it's great, it's a really good springboard for conversation, and I think generation is the reason that we've definitely latched on to the generational conversation, is it everyone has an opinion on it, so it really sparks some really great um and that's why we're here.
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Um, but the research has never been done on your team.
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So, how do we actually get insights in real time um from the experts, which are the people within the organization?
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And I think that's the the beauty of facilitating as an external person coming in, so that you can really kind of unpack and understand where the kind of pain points are.
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Um, but also I think the biggest thing that we found is you share research around the generational norms, uh, you start a conversation whether that actually relates.
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We talk about a lot about motivation, leadership styles, communication styles, how do you want to get feedback?
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What does validation look like to you?
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What does professionalism look to you?
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All of these um ideas that a lot of the time I don't think we we fully maybe think about, and a lot of the time in the workshops we have participants saying, I hadn't really even thought about this for me personally, and yet I'm expecting my manager to manage me in this way.
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Yeah, interesting.
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Yeah.
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And also probably just a point because uh a lot of people ask, but um, the reason it's called no umbrellas is uh around that kind of sharing of ideas, letting all these ideas fall, uh, shaking up our ways of working.
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Um, and yeah, so when it's raining ideas, why put up an umbrella?
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Yeah, fantastic.
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And when you work with a company, what what sparks that initial contact with you?
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Is it because they recognize there's a problem or they're having an issue, or is it because they're they're they're curious?
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What does that look like generally?
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I think it's I think it's frustration.
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Um there there definitely is a push, I think, around the Gen Z conversation, and that's taking up a lot of media space currently.
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Um, struggling with Gen Z working hours, how do I manage them?
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And then the other side of it being that Gen Z are job hopping a lot more, that staff turnovers are increasing, it's costing companies a lot of money and finding ways to retain talent is going to be more important now as the population gets older, as Richard said.
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And we are in a unique time in in history.
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And I think if you actually look at the data from the ABS from the like the last 20 years, you can actually see that the headaches that managers and teams are having with people under the age of 30, it's the same headaches they were having when millennials were under 30.
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Um, the difference is we've got this aging population.
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So over 65s now take up 15% of the workforce, whereas in 2001 it was only 6%.
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So we've got a lot of this kind of huge span of ages trying to all work together in the same space with a lot of judgment.
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And so I think it's working with teams to I think we need to tackle these complicated and and challenging discussions.
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A lot of the time we don't want to have them, but I think in order for us to move forward, we need to have it in a space that's um open, it's brave, but it's it's also it's highly enjoyable.
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I mean, people disagreeing on stuff, I think that's where the progress is.
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We need to have a space going, yeah, this is really annoying.
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Okay, great.
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How are we gonna do it differently?
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How are we gonna work around it?
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Because we can't just keep complaining to the same people within our little silos and bubbles.
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We've got to open up the discussion.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And Richard, do you wanna do you wanna tell us a little bit more about what it looks like for you when you're in in action?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it's but it's not um, it's actually not huge a difference to um to to what Flo's just outlined.
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And and just to kind of reinforce um um some of the points that Florence was making there, I've been lucky enough to be through or gone through her mini workshop or mini version of her workshop a couple of times now.
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And it is it even though I I'm actually spending a huge amount of time thinking about working in the space, it's it's eye-opening for people, even like myself, who are actually actively working in um you know, in the intergeneration working, aging population kind of conversations day in, day out.
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Um so I think that what we're doing and what Florence is doing is kind of stopping people in the tracks and raising awareness of the problem.
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Because in many respects, from an intergenerational perspective, we're drifting through um workspaces and specifically around age discrimination and ageism.
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We just don't really understand enough about it.
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Um we might have heard the term, but we don't really understand what it means to individuals, but more importantly to the organisations we work for.
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Um, and I think part of the part of the opportunity is actually that that um uh that there are people working much later in life.
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And those people in senior leadership positions now know people personally who are experiencing a problem with AIC discrimination.
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And so when that that problem is being raised to them in a in a business setting by people like myself and or Florence, what I'm experiencing more and more is those senior executives going, actually, yes, I'm I've heard Jane has got this problem, Jim's got this problem, I heard it from whoever it might be.
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And because it's then personalised, it comes to life a bit more, you create enough opportunity in the environment to actually change that dynamic inside that particular workplace.
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Because it's one of those, it's a strange age, age in particular is a strange prejudice because it's not it's one that we all we all hope we're going to be old enough to experience one day.
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Um, bearing in mind it kicks in at 50.
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We all want to be 50, um, I hope.
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Um but we I'd love to be 50 again.
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Sorry, turning the clock back at the point.
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But we don't we we don't tend to do enough in in our younger years to limit uh a potential ism that we're all hoping we might one day get old enough to experience.
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And that's because you know, 50 when you're 20 or 30, 50 feels like a really, really, really long way away.
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Um and you've got lots of other priorities and you've got things going on, and we've got lots of other isms we equally need to kind of you know allocate some time to in the workplace to to continue to fix.
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But this is the one that's kind of I think slipped under the radar a little bit.
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Um, but but I I think because of the nature of the number of generations we now have in the workforce, to the point Florence made earlier, and the fact that people are working longer and longer, more people are seeing that age discrimination come to life, which I think is creating a better platform for us to be able to actually do something about it.
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Yeah.
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I wonder, given the fact, I mean, you you mentioned earlier about sort of frustration, and then you also mentioned um Flow about bubbles, and we've also got a really interesting backdrop just um in in the the the whole economic um environment, if you like, with hybrid working, you know, so that's very easy, isn't it, to sit in your bubble at home?
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Um you've got you know lots of transformation going on uh within businesses, and then you know, obviously the the fast creep of AI and and what's happening there.
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Has this kind of put us on a fast train to um, you know, has it exacerbated this this this problem, do you think, and made people more aware?
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Or is it actually just highlighting some of the assumptions that are are sitting there that I guess we all have, you know, we're all guilty of?
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I think um I think as a lot of the time we have definitely found that there's a difference between generation and life stage.
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Um we're all at different life stages, and I think with COVID hybrid working, being kind of forced to be in remote situations working, we've disconnected ourselves.
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Uh some of that has been hugely beneficial, and I think there's been some real massive perks from from having that ability to work in different um situations and and locations, but it also has made us incredibly independent and isolated.
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And I think I could couldn't agree with you more in terms of I was just thinking about it the other day, but you know, we watch our own Netflix shows, we listen to our own podcasts, like you watch everything, you know, is on your feed, we're not sharing it in newspapers, or it's we're all independently kind of going about our business.
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And I think when it comes to working and collaborating, and collaborating is you know a big thing that I talk to a lot of businesses on is that you want to have collaborative meetings and you want to get ideas generated and you want to, you know, rethink how do we make our product or service better.
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But that's really hard if you've just got one person talking and then waiting for the next person to talk, which that's kind of how our you know world has turned into.
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Um I think it's a really interesting time, but it's also the the most exciting thing that I think is the best part of my job is that bringing people in person and having those uncomfortable conversations, but actually realizing that everyone has an opinion and everyone has ideas that that can be shared around how do we work better remotely, or um I'm not sure if that really answers your question, but there we go.
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That we talk talked about going off on segues, but hey, hey ho, yeah, absolutely.
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Do you do you want to add that?
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I also think we're um we're at a we're at we're a genuine we're at a genuine turning point, which which I would literally liken only to the industrial revolution and the invention of the printing press, with the with the with the essentially the the this kind of generic, for want of a better description, shift to AI will be an absolutely fundamental shift in the way that we work and we continue to work going forwards short, medium, and long term.
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And I guess the both the my my you know my comparative examples of the industrial revolution and the invention of the printing press we only saw as absolutely transformational when we looked back.
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I think we have the opportunity now to say, actually, we can see the transformation of AI coming.
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We we know the impact that's having on the workforce and the intergenerational elements of that workforce.
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Why don't we kind of embrace that change and that transformation positively now rather than look back on it in 15, 20, 30 years' time ago, oh that was that was a big shift, that AI thing.
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Why didn't we see that coming?
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And you know, it's it's we we can learn the lessons of history if you like and actually begin to say, okay, well, that those two massive changes in society changed everything.
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So this one is also going to change everything.
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How do we actually get ahead of that curve in terms of thinking what that change might look like?
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And if you think going back to industrial revolution, we still work in many pla in many cases in industrial revolution style workplaces that are designed to manage us from a time start in the morning to a time start in the afternoon rather than to you know productivity and output.
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You have lots of organizations post-pandemic saying, I want everybody back in the office.
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I don't really know why, but we kind of want you back in.
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And it's, you know, surely that something like AI and the transformation impact of something like that should allow us to be able to say, you know what, let's take a step back, let's have some more of these uncomfortable conversations and think about what a different, better, more flexible future looks like.
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I couldn't I couldn't agree more.
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That was just, yeah, bang on.
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I I was thinking about it only I had a conversation literally two days ago, Richard just about as as always with humans in history is that we like overestimate the short-term effects and we underestimate the long term.
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And I think AI is going to be one of those is that just it is new, it's new to to all of us, and and I when it comes to across ages, I think it's one of the best things that we can be talking about because no one knows it better.
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And I think assuming that Gen Z are on top of it and across it, we we're all still learning.
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I think there is a a test in- No one knows, do they?
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No one really knows.
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No one knows, and also we're not I I you know I I hear hardly hear about training.
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It's the same with hybrid work.
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I mean, did did we learn how to work in a hybrid environment?
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No, we're just expected to teleport out top zone with fingers crossed, it works out.
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Like it's yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, particularly in the in the context of recruitment.
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Um, you know, AI is is all I hear about.
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You know, it's it's it's the top conversation day in, day out, but it's also opening up this really interesting opportunity of well, set that aside because you know, to a degree we don't know, but imagine what you will do with all that time that it does give you back, and you know, bring is gives us an opportunity, particularly in recruitment in in our profession, to get back to the the fundamental of being human, human-to-human context.
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And I think that's really, really important, and I guess plays into this idea of then understanding the humans that make up today's workforce, which is going to be in my mind, where if businesses get it right, they will really thrive and they will they will survive this AI, you know, threat that that I think everybody feels is is a little bit daunting at the moment and slightly um we're all in the deep end and you know not knowing where the uh where the shoreline is.
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I I tend to agree.
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Yeah.
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But kind of um get kind of pulling that back to the intergenerational nature of work.
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The you know, we we used to, and it's interesting you mentioned newspapers, so I hadn't actually thought about a newspaper or anything news related that isn't online for many, a, many, many times.
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But we used to believe if it was in the newspaper, we believed it, right?
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That was just how that was how life was structured.
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Then that shifted to Google, and the first the first three or four search returns on a Google search were the ones you believed, because those were typically the ones you read, and you didn't do a huge amount of research behind it because you assumed that the internet was going to deliver the right result.
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Um we're a little bit like that now with you know um generative AI.
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But the the difficulty becomes particularly around the intergenerational piece and around AI generally, is if we believe everything we're delivered via AI or anything um uh AI um powered, without questioning that and without layering over the experiences that exist in those five generations, we're at risk of you know falling falling um you know ever decreasing circles down to whatever is that the bias that is being fed through the AI engine.
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And in recruitment centers, particularly around ATS, for example, where AI AI training for an ATS system is quite often done on the existing hires that have been made in an organization, which which, with the best will in the world, have an inherent bias in them because they they always will have, which means we're training our ATS systems through AI on inherent bias just because of the nature in which we're training them.
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And so there is there is a concern around some of that, particularly from an intergenerational perspective, I guess, that we make sure that we are we are training without bias or we're building in systems that allow training without bias so that we don't reinforce the problems we've had over the last however many years.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, Flo, when you when you think, I mean, we've got five generations, right, working together, when that is well oiled and looks good, it's you know, is working well, what's happening?
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Or what's changed, maybe?
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Yes, so I think I I love the I mean a lot it's a it's a great thing saying five generations in the workforce, and I think for a lot of people it might be two, it might be three.
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I don't know a huge amount of companies that have got a 22-year-old and an 85-year-old, but hey, that there are they're they're out there.
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Um but we've now got that, but there will be five generations because Alpha will be coming through and as um the silent generation of of fully retired.
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And um if it when it's working, there is a mutual respect and a curiosity across whatever age group you are, whatever life stage you're at, or asking questions, questioning things, learning from different um ages.
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A lot of the time we see kind of mentoring programs in place where it's very much junior team members learning from leaders, which is fantastic and it's a really good connection.
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But I think opening that up and and this space of kind of mutual mentoring, people call it reverse mentoring, I find that incredibly confusing because it seems to be the wrong way, and I think it should be going both ways because that's what mentoring is.
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Um, but the idea that we can learn at whatever stage we're at and open up for questions.
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Um, I've had talked to leaders that have we've been in workshops and they've you know opened up, well, okay, if you were running it, what would you do?
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:34.960
And be so open to actually going, well, actually I'd done it this way or this way.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:35.759
Okay, interesting.
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:59.920
You know, that's not being so caught up in like I meant to know this, but actually opening up for a discussion across, and that's the more collaborative kind of working environments that a lot of Gen Z have kind of grown up wanting, and the research is out there around them wanting to know the why and why why are we doing something and what previous generations would have said that's above your pay grade and just sit down.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.279
That's not the need to know a basis, yeah.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.359
Yeah, it's a it's a baseline expectation to want to know those things now.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:15.599
Um, but yeah, I think it's fine finding connection across the business, having that kind of mentoring mind mindset.
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:24.400
Um running program projects very much based on skill uh as opposed to just you know assumptions.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:41.839
We see a lot of projects that are going ahead and going, okay, well, we want to have an AI element, perfect, we'll put the 25-year-old on that, and then we've got someone else that's you know we'll put them onto the people and whatever, having it as an assumption as opposed to a conversation.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:54.640
So teams that where this is working really well is at the start of projects or start of um ideation, really opening up that conversation to everyone and everyone having a valued input um regardless of age.
00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:09.759
Um I think there's an opportunity to think to even go deeper than that as well and and to to start thinking more differently about organizational design and the flexibility that comes with not just the flexibility within a role, but the flexibility within organizational design.
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:23.839
Because if if we're accept if we accept the premise that intergenerational teams are better than single generation teams, um how do we get more um mature or older people into entry-level teams?
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:41.359
So if you think about those kind of entry-level um graduate or recently postgraduate roles, the way you've got a team of five, six, seven, ten, fifteen people aged in their early 20s, it is that team strengthened by getting somebody in their mid-50s in into that team to change some of the dynamic?
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:42.960
Almost certainly.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:50.559
But most organisations probably wouldn't be thinking, you know, how do we float somebody in their mid-50s into an entry-level role?
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:57.359
Even if they're qualified for it, they would probably be currently thinking, well, this is really an entry-level role, not for somebody in their mid-50s.
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:05.440
But what does a why does age change that dynamic, particularly if we're thinking about the flexibility around intergenerational working?
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:18.960
But we need to be much more flexible in the in our thinking and our and and wider in our ability to hire, if you like, in many respects, to make that balance, make that intergenerational balance work throughout every level of the hierarchy.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:19.519
Yeah.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:24.240
And I I think recruitment's a really big, big angle on that.
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:28.960
And I think there's there's even job ads that I see out there, I just go, you know, eight years' experience, right?
00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.119
They want a millennium, you know, or you know, it's entry-level roles.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:38.799
It's very obvious kind of the age brackets that they're after.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:44.400
Um I also, you know, you still hear that thing of going, oh, when you're looking for a culture fit, that's something I disagree with.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:52.559
You know, you want people to add to your company, they should be challenging it, they should be, you know, adding a bit more zest if that's the the way it is.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:58.240
And not you don't want everyone being the same, otherwise you've got um a lack of, yeah.
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:14.480
Um I had this conversation with um with my wife actually just recently who she works for a major um uh big consumer health company, so they have a very large marketing department, assistant brand manager, ABM roles or the kind of entry-level roles into those, into that, into that kind of team, if you like.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:16.720
And they've probably got, I don't know, six or eight of them.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:20.400
And they're all early 20s, um, recently postgraduate.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:34.880
And I said, look, if I if I'd been an accountant all my life and I actually hated it, but it paid the bills and put the kids through school or whatever, and you know, mid-50s, I've gone back to school, I've got a postgraduate, um recently graduated in a marketing discipline, if I apply to one of those ABM roles, am I going to get it?
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:35.920
And she went, no.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.920
No, because you don't fit the obvious mold of this is what that role looks like for you.
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:43.119
And I went, Yeah, that's fair enough.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:43.680
That's what I thought.
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:51.759
I said, on the other hand, if you've got a team of eight um ABMs and you've got seven who are 23 and one who's 55, is that a better team?
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.200
She went, Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:58.799
And so you've got this kind of like there's a base understanding that actually this stuff could work really well.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:04.640
What we haven't quite worked out yet is how we make how we bring that to life, how do we make that manifest?
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:11.200
And I guess, you know, this the well, the technology is one is one thing.
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.640
Um, whether that helps or hinders, I'm I'm never quite sure.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:19.039
Um, but where where do you think is the the sticking point?
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.160
Where's the resistance?
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:27.200
Where's the most resistance that you see from, you know, hiring managers, leaders, um, when you're working with employ?
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:33.119
I think it's trying to pin what what the issue is, is probably the biggest thing.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.279
Um a lot of the time, it's really interesting.
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:47.200
A lot of the time you you you go into an organization, you'll have conversations with with leadership, they'll have an idea of what they view as the problem and what they have defined as the problem.
00:27:47.440 --> 00:28:02.079
We then go into the workshops, and I make it very clear and when we when we are setting up um the sessions, there's a lot of pre-work, the workshop itself, and then post-work, but we can't go in telling you how the outcome what the outcome's gonna be.
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:03.119
We don't know.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:12.160
And a lot of the time we go in and the outcome of the workshop is actually a much better defined understanding of what that that problem is.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:32.960
Um I think the the unique point in time that we're at, and the reason why our intergenerational workshops at the moment are are um incredibly popular, I think, is that we actually have Gen Z team members that are now managing baby boomers, or we'll have Gen Z team members managing millennials, and that friction is some of the biggest friction out there.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.440
A lot of the time we hear baby boomers, Gen Z, they get hit the headlines.
00:28:37.519 --> 00:29:01.680
Those sandwich generations of the Gen X's and the Millennials, which are carrying at the moment the majority of the workforce, kind of get ignored, and I think that's where the sticking point is understanding that getting them on board and actually highlighting the fact that it is hard, it is a tough space to be in, but it's a really exciting time, and you actually have the answers, and it's not gonna cost an arm and a leg.
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:26.400
It is purely understanding your team, they will have the answers, and yeah, that's that's the beauty of I think a workshop and um empowering teams that you've got great people, but and yeah, I think that's a great approach because so much so many so many times the problems inside organizations are homegrown in that kind of that's just not the way we do things around here, kind of conversation.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:41.440
Um and so you know, getting getting shaking that up by actually having conversation about it and and and and getting some of these issues out in the open and being much more transparent, um, you know, creates a better a more likely atmosphere to facilitate change.
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:56.079
Because the other thing is, and again, it isn't um I mean it's it's strange to think, but I heard um the Age Discrimination Commissioner speak just recently, and and he reminded everybody in the room that actually a lot of a lot of ageist attitudes are perpetuated by older people.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.839
And so, particularly within the context of the workplace, a lot of the decisions that are being made.
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:05.599
That are aged in nature are being made by people in their 50s and 60s in very senior leadership positions.
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:17.599
And that a lot of that comes from, you know, that's the way it's always been done, kind of thinking, rather than what's the best way of doing it now, kind of thinking, which, you know, workshops like the ones that Flowruns will hopefully shake up.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:20.400
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:21.519
Sorry, go on, Flow.
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:22.079
Yeah.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:31.279
I I think I what we were saying before about um having I I watched the the movie The Internship, The Intern recently with Anne Hathaway.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:31.680
And yeah.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:38.240
And it's just a great film because you kind of get that whole angle of intergenerational working together.
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:46.720
But I think that understanding that a lot of judgment comes in of going, oh, that person's not going to want to do this role because they're far too qualified.
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:52.640
They've worked, you know, lots of years, they're going to want to be paid an enormous amount of money, which is not on our cards.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.759
Again, we've jumped to a conclusion that we don't know.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.880
And actually having the conversation of going, okay, this person is 65.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:07.599
They still want purpose in their life, they still have so much wisdom to impart on younger people and so much knowledge.
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:15.599
Maybe they want to come in and do an entry-level coordinator role to be still a part and imparting that knowledge.
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:17.279
You don't know until you ask.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:29.519
And I think that's that's a big thing of my worry about AI when it comes to hiring is that those resumes will just go through the feed and it'll just be like, nah, nah, that's too hard.
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.079
You know, they won't like it.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:33.599
Do we know?
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:34.079
Yeah.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:36.000
Yeah, it's so true.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:50.400
And um, I I think there's often this, you know, assumption that like you say, you know, that they're too qualified, they won't stay, they want a man, you know, they're gonna take my job, whatever it might be.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:32:06.480
And yet the fact that somebody has taken the time to apply for a role and clearly has capacity and an appetite, you would think that that would be enough to trigger some conversation to say, well, let's open that up and have a look and see what that looks like for that person.
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:15.920
Um, you know, it may be that they just want that social connection or a bit of purpose or you know, something that's that's just keeping them active two days a week, whatever it might be.
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:22.960
Um, but you're right, the the assumptions can can lead us down a slippery slope and are often wrong.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:29.599
And also if you can get someone that's overqualified in a role where you're paying them an entry-level fee, it's a bonus.
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:30.880
Wow, absolutely.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.440
Sign me up, gets them on board, like fantastic.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:47.279
So that's the thing, is that like it's one of those things that particularly, I mean, it good leadership is often categorized by surrounding yourself with people who are a lot better than you, um, because you know they make you look good, right?
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:58.880
And you know, if you if you hire great people and you let them and you free them up to actually do the job you hire them to do, typically that that that that person gets recognized as as being a great leader in an organization.
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.119
Why why should people be worried about hiring people more experienced than them?
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:09.200
Like it it kind of is paradoxical to the kind of basic thinking that surrounds with people who are better than you anyway.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.200
Good old ego gets in the way, doesn't it?
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:15.920
But I also think that there's an inherent problem in the way that we hire.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:25.119
Um, and I'm not talking about the recruitment industry specifically, although we're guilty of this, is that, you know, and that stems from client demand.
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:26.960
It's a reactive process.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:35.279
Somebody resigns typically, we have a vacancy, we need to hire, we have a finite amount of time to get that new person in.
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:46.079
Therefore, what we do, we will go and look and see what we advertised for last time because it worked, because we ticked that box and we hired for it, and we've got one of those people right now, so let's hire another one of those.
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.200
It's like going in a sweet shop and saying, I'll have another one of those, please.
00:33:49.359 --> 00:34:00.880
And I find it incredible, but it's because there is very little time to indulge in, well, let's just flip this around, let's see what else we could, you know.
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:12.320
And and that then inherently starts a process that almost gets narrower and narrower the closer it gets to somebody coming in for interview or getting shortlisted.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.440
And that for me is where we really need to change things.
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:19.199
Yeah, it's a it's a distressed purchase, so it always has been.
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:20.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:32.800
Because you and and and part of the problem, I guess, for the recruitment industry has always been you can't stimulate demand in your industry, really, because you you know, you can't you can't encourage people to hire people they don't necessarily need or want.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:34.880
So you almost have to be there.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:45.199
Um, I mean, yes, there are teams that are expanding, obviously, of course, but a lot of a lot of the recruitment industry's highs are backfill into roles that have just become vacant for whatever reason, which makes an essential distress purchase.
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:56.400
But again, that the consultant part of the recruitment consultant job title arguably gives you the opportunity to get ahead of that curve if the relationship with the client is good enough to actually think about what that planning might look like.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:15.840
But from a recruitment industry perspective, that means we we would need to get off the kind of drug that is placement feed and you know this week and this month and this quarter rather than the longer term, you know, rather than what we what might work within context, which is that kind of long longer term planning with a client, provided you have that relationship.
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:25.280
That is, okay, how do we how do we how do we m how do we map what the next 12, 18, 24, 36 months looks like all things being equal?
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.239
And how do we how do we work with you along that journey?
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:36.480
Um those are not typical conversations that probably either side the hiring manager or the recruitment consultant is currently having.
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:42.159
But I mean, having been a hiring manager particularly, I I'd be welcome to those discussions for sure.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:52.000
Um it's just that, you know, how do you how do you how do you think through the the process of like again that we've talked about a couple of times, this is what we've always done.
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:58.320
So let's do that versus okay, what if we take a step back and have a look at it, what can we improve within the context of that process?
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:09.840
And I'm interested to know, Flo, from your point of view, you know, there are going to be a lot of recruiters listening to this podcast, people that work in the recruitment industry.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:27.840
What would you suggest would open up that, you know, or at least start to work through some of that objection when a client is, you know, uh perhaps closed off or resistant to to changing the process that you know is the legacy hiring attitude?
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:42.639
Yeah, I again I think the most of the workshops that I I go into and and when we are facilitating is that I can provide answers and solutions and research.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:51.519
Um, but I think uncovering people's uncons like unconscious bias that they don't really realize that they're thinking about uh is a really good first step.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:37:06.880
And also a lot of the discussions that we have around how do you want to be motivated, definitions around flexibility, um getting even hiring managers to think about themselves in that situation.
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:08.559
Like, how do I like to be led?
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.519
Do I want my manager to tell me exactly what to do and go off and do it?
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:12.960
Something that I'm not very good at.
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.280
I want to be part of the process and collaborate.
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.239
Um when it comes to validation, do you want it once a year?
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:19.920
Do you want it once a month?
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.079
Do you need it three times a week?
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:23.519
Um, guilty.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:29.119
Uh it's you know, there are there are things that being I've grow I've grown up with participation modules.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:33.679
I've grown up with, you know, being thanked for for doing, you know, dishes.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:35.679
So that's just how I've grown up.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:41.280
I know it's ridiculous, I know it's not necessary, and I've taught myself that I don't need it, need it, but it is quite nice.
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:55.599
Again, having those discussions in in a session and getting individuals to realise those things, it it then goes into that space of going, okay, maybe these are the questions we should be asking people coming in.
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:57.119
Because it's nothing to do with age.
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:58.880
This is just about personal preference.
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.360
And you know, out of curiosity, how does this work?
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.239
How does it you know how do you feel about working from home?
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:05.199
Do you want things in person?
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.480
Do you how do you take feedback?
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:08.079
Do you want feedback back in an email?
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:15.039
Do you want it sparks a really interesting conversation of uncovering the person behind it?
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:25.199
And I think a lot of conversations that even I've had when I've been interviewing for jobs or in the room during interviews, you know, what are your best traits?
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.599
Oh, I'm really organized, fantastic.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:34.639
Like how do we how do we come up with questions that maybe uncover a little bit more about that person and their preferences?
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:38.639
And it's not right or wrong, it's just that's who you are.
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:55.039
Um and so I think in answer to your question, I think the the beauty of asking these questions, and I've talked to recruit recruiters, they understand themselves more and therefore they become more open and more curious to understanding other people.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:08.719
So I think that's where I would start it is kind of acknowledging what judgment maybe you have that you don't really think about and open that for more curious questions rather than the jumping to, I don't think this is for you.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:11.440
Okay, that's yeah.
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:13.599
Yeah, that's really interesting.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:25.440
Just on that point, how do you then, you know, like it sounds it sounds ideal, digging into everybody's preferences and who likes what and how they like to be treated.
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:44.800
And you know, I I know you've got a a firm view around that that saying about treating others the way you would like to treat yourself, but there's also a balance to strike if particularly if you have a large workforce, and I can imagine many managers going, Oh, well, how do I, you know, how am I going to cater to all these wants and needs?
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:53.119
So, how does that then sort of start to formulate a framework that is manageable, practical, and successful?
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.280
Awesome, great question.
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:55.920
Thank you.
00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:01.440
Um this is similar to values mission that a company has.
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:02.320
Yeah.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:32.800
The idea of collaborating on how you see flexibility, how you see hybrid working, how you view feedback, um, coming together collaboratively and defining those things and making it really clear and then communicating that out there of saying, look, we've got these options that we know absolutely could not agree more, is that you cannot have 600 different ways, like it's got work to do, and it's that becomes hugely overwhelming.
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:44.159
But a lot of the time the conversations that we have is around being in the unknown, just not being that clear on what professionalism means.
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:50.079
Um at workshop I've I we spoke for probably 45 minutes about getting coffee.
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:51.280
And when do you get coffee?
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:52.320
Do you get coffee at nine?
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:54.000
Do you get coffee at 9.30?
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.039
Do you have to arrive at 8.30 and then go for coffee?
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:03.119
It was a real tension point of when do you go and get coffee?
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:08.320
And I thought if there was a you know, a collaboration of going, you know what, it's all good.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:16.800
We're gonna have meetings start at 9.30, no meeting's gonna be at nine, that coffee time is actually prime time for everyone to get together, interact.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:22.960
Talking about your weekend is good, talking about what you're doing outside of work is really important.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:31.599
But again, if you've made that communicated that out to the company, then you don't have resentment from the people that are showing up at 8 to be prepared.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:43.199
That's I mean, that's an example, but I think coming together to define those things with your team instead of just coming as an external person and telling.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:50.960
I think it's it's a really powerful um way forward for teams, and that's what we've definitely found.
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:53.599
Yeah, fantastic.
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.880
Richard, you got anything to add on that one?
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:07.920
Um, but I do I I do know um hates the expression treat people like you like you treat you.
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.519
Yeah, I think that's the that wraps it up a little bit nicely for me.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:14.159
Hate is an incredibly strong word, Rich.
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:15.280
No, that's true.
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:16.400
Well that's that's true.
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.960
That's true.
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:18.239
I'll I'll temper that a little.
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:24.239
I know I don't think I yeah, I grew I grew up with a dad that said no, you don't hate, it's just not in your best books.
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:31.199
So I used to be like, oh, this I don't, you know, it's just broccoli is not in my best books, just so everyone's aware.
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.039
Broccoli is now my favourite vegetable, and a meal without it is not a meal.
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:42.719
Um I think, yes, just going on the golden rule of treat others the way that you want to be treated, it's a great rule.
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:44.639
I'm not gonna say it's it's bad.
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:51.840
I think it just needs a kind of a step up and maybe a a progression forward for 2025.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:43:03.199
Um, and that is that understanding others and how they might be different to you might mean that treating them the way that you want to be treated is actually not gonna be that effective.
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:09.760
And so having those more curious questions again, this is something that needs to be continually had.
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:16.320
I think you can't just have one conversation with someone and go, well, that's how they said they wanted to be treated, and then treat them that way for the next five years.
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:25.039
Like this is an ongoing conversation, but I think yeah, being being open to treating others the way that they want to be treated.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:26.480
Fantastic.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.480
I like that works really well.
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:35.599
And it also points to the fact that this the stereotypes that exist around generations don't particularly help with those kind of conversations either.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:57.119
In that, you know, the um, you know, baby baby boomers and gen X are kind of set in their ways, and your gen alphas can't use English properly because they've made up their own language or whatever it might be that that are these stereotypes that that then kind of bracket a group of people together don't particularly help with the discussion about how you can be more individual and flexible in in how you approach working.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.639
Completely.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:02.400
I think I think fear is behind a lot of it.
00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:35.840
You know, I I've got a good friend who works in a um a very large firm, you know, people and culture role, and they have a board who are typically um middle-aged or later in life males who have said openly that they're too scared to walk the floor or engage with the you know the younger because they don't know how to handle it and you know they're they're kind of pulling the pulling away from it because it's all too hard.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:45:03.119
And I think you know, for me, if I think about anybody in resisting change, it's it's usually stems from a place of fear, whether that's a fear of feeling foolish or you know not knowing the answer or saying something wrong, that that is a genuine, and I think it's really important that you recognise that that there is you value that as well, and that's that's justified and that's fair, but to break it down as well.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:07.199
But there's a genuine fear, I think, in a lot of people about getting it wrong.
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:09.760
And I think there's there's fear across the board.
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:31.440
I think you're you're so right that especially in this time of a lot of wokeness, I think a lot of Gen Xs and baby boomers feel they're gonna say the wrong thing, that they're gonna be even cancelled by their work colleagues by just you know, slip of but that anxiety then leads to not saying anything.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:35.760
And I think that silence is way more damaging.
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:47.599
And the other way is I talk to university graduates that say, I can't ask questions, I can't, you know, I've got gone into this role, and I and so they act like they know, they go onto AI to find solutions.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:53.119
They jump to, you know, trying to find any other way than having an uncomfortable conversation.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:46:00.559
And this is a generation, I include myself in this bucket, where we we will quit jobs rather than having an uncomfortable conversation.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:05.840
We will ghost someone instead of breaking up with them because that's just easier.
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:12.000
This is avoiding, it's an it's an avoider because of fear, because of fear of rejection.
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:22.960
And and so you've got these kind of two sides, and both kind of avoid each other, which leads to very little progress and not building any bridges.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:37.519
So I think with our workshops, it's it's really about setting that tone of saying we need to have this conversation, and we don't all have to agree, but we do need to have it, and it needs to be respectful.
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:44.800
Um but it's really exciting and it's great because what you really find is that there's loads of differences, most of it's similarities.
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:57.119
We all want the same thing out of work, we want to be respected, we want to be valued, you know, we want to go on a holidays, we're saving money for something, we want to feel autonomy over things that we're doing at work.
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:14.639
Like there's there's we all want a very similar thing out of employment, and and that purpose is is unifying, but I think you're stupid, you just hit the nail on the head that that that fear is actually what stops a lot of discussion.
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:23.519
But also also makes my job really fun because I love going into a workshop with someone sitting at the back going, I'm not saying anything.
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:25.920
And I'm like, Okay, here we go.
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.639
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:49.280
Um, we're almost at the end of time, but before we um sign off, uh I always like to ask people um what they'd like to see change, or you know, if you look to the future next 10 years or so, what would you like to see look differently, maybe achieve whatever it might be?
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.639
Richard, I'm gonna start with you.
00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:53.119
You're nodding, so you get to go first.
00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:57.039
I should have said quite a bit about not saying anything.
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:24.639
Um look for me from from a from um uh an age, specifically an age discrimination perspective rather than kind of the multi-generational piece, I guess for me it's that there is there is more opportunity for people who are aged 45 if they're female and 50 if they're male to be to for their their applications in in the recruitment process to be considered on merit capability and experience rather than age.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:36.480
Um and like like with every kind of prejudice in the workplace, um you know, around gender, sexuality, race, whatever it might be, we're we're not gonna be all the way there in 10 years.
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.840
But but you apply over the top of that our aging population problem.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:51.440
And I think it's really it's an imperative that organizers think we're better than we are now, so that we actually have enough people in the workforce um it you know in 10 years' time to actually do all AI regardless.
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:55.440
Like we're we're still gonna need people in roles that AI is never gonna be able to do.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:06.000
Not not obviously limited to those where empathy is critical and or human contact is critical, but there are always gonna be roles that that computers can't do on our behalf.
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:10.559
And we are not gonna have enough people if we don't think about things differently sooner rather than later.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:24.480
So that that's where that's where I mean uh asking for people to be judged on merit shouldn't be a massive ask, but we know it is it it's a huge leap for lots of lots of people in lots of ri for lots of reasons, but that's where I'd like to see us getting to.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:25.760
Fantastic.
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:26.159
Thank you.
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:26.639
Flo.
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:28.079
Nice.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.519
I don't really want to follow that because that was very nicely put.
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:44.559
Um I'm gonna say collaboration because I think it's a a a big thing that that we're definitely working towards in bringing teams together to have more collaborative conversations.
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:52.159
I think uh a lot of yes, AI is fantastic and it is really gonna progress all businesses and it's gonna affect everyone.
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:55.360
And being good at AI is no longer a you know a competitive advantage.
00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:57.119
Everyone needs to be on on board with it.
00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:06.079
But I think that human element ultimately we are selling to humans, um, and for the time being until we're selling to robots, and that's gonna be fun.
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:22.320
Um but I think understanding people, getting insights from your team, um changing strategy based on on the people that you're working with, and also being really purposeful with meetings.
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:28.239
So I think if you're if you're running a meeting that is is to just direct the team, fantastic, great, make that clear.
00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:44.880
But if you're having a meeting to rethink how you're doing something or have a retrospective of of how we could do things differently, then create the space for that and create the space that you're not just hearing from um, as Adam Grant calls them, the the hippos, the highest paid person's opinion.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:48.559
Um, so you're not just hearing from them, but you're actually hearing from everyone.
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:53.119
So I think being really clear on on those, yeah.
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:54.960
Fantastic.
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.719
Uh thank you both very, very much for the conversation today.
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:00.000
It's been really interesting.
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:05.119
And um, I'm sure we're going to meet again, and hopefully the uh dialogue shifted a little bit next time we do.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:07.199
So uh yeah, have a fantastic day.
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:12.480
Thanks everyone for listening, and uh, we'll be out with this edition very, very soon.
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:13.519
Thanks again.
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:14.559
Thanks, Leslie.
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:15.840
Cheers.
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:20.880
Thank you for listening to Recruitment Down Under, brought to you by AMPSCO.
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:22.159
Join us next time.
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:26.400
If it's happening in recruitment in Australia, we'll be talking about it.