Before What’s Next: Finding Your Footing with Hisun Kim

Gina Hudel: [00:00:08] I'm Gina Hudel, and welcome to Ready for Beyond. Ready for Beyond explores how we move forward in a world that's changing fast, from AI to global dynamics. It looks at how the lives we build lead us to shape our future. We'll examine growth and personal fulfillment with practical takeaways and candid conversations that open the door to possibility. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss any episode of this journey. Let's go beyond. Hello everyone, and welcome to Ready for Beyond. I'm Gina Hudel. When most of us think about losing a job, we jump pretty quickly to what comes next. Update the resume. Call the network. Start looking. But Hisun Kim starts somewhere else. She calls it first aid. Hisun spent 24 years in technology, including 14 years in Silicon Valley. And from where she sits, AI isn't simply changing jobs, it's also raising questions about some of the assumptions many of us have carried about careers, expertise, and what comes next. Hisun is the founder of Meplan, and our conversation started with layoffs, but it became something much bigger. How do you find your footing when some of the things you thought you could count on suddenly aren't so certain? Hisun. Welcome to ready for beyond.

Hisun Kim: [00:02:03] Thanks for having me.

Gina Hudel: [00:02:06] It's so much fun. Let's start right here. When I found your work, I expected resumes and interview tips. Instead, I found a lay off first aid guide. Why first aid?

Hisun Kim: [00:02:19] I find, like, you know, as you mentioned, people would be thinking about resume guides, how to do interviews, how to find people, job postings and stuff. But all of those things are assuming that they have the working executive brain. But when you first got laid off, like in the first 72 hours, you don't have this executive functioning. You're shocked, you're panicked. You are somewhat ashamed. You're still trying to process out what's happening to you. So I thought it was more like the big kid in your self-confidence. Before you can address that first, you cannot think straight. So it is more about first aid that you need to figure out what you've got already. What's your what's under your belt so that you can start from there with more confidence. Like thinking about the job strategy, trying to find out your resume strategy, those are all things that you can do later. It is more about, let's stand up first. Like just let's mark where you're standing first. That's how I started.

Gina Hudel: [00:03:29] Well, here's something I noticed when I found the first aid guide, it's really available. Why was that important to you to offer it for free?

Hisun Kim: [03:38] I thought it is just something that I can offer as the smallest thing for free. Like I've been there before, I have done, you know, been in the same shoes before. And I was really panicking back then when I got laid off, I was going through visa issues in the US as a foreign national and all these things were happening to me and so overwhelming. I've been there before and like, you know, I got helped by other people as well back then. So I thought that is something that I can give back, and also it is the easy way to find out if something like this is working as a framework.

Gina Hudel: [04:21] Sure. And before we continue on to the framework, because there is one that follows, this is kind of like you know, you're ready to see it when you're ready to see it. So we don't need to get into a lot of details because people don't need the first aid right now, but some inkling, a sort of a preview of what's in the first aid kit, some of the topics that you cover?

Hisun Kim: [04:41] Yeah. So it is based on my underlying philosophy that you gotta live by design, not by default. So this starts with a firm belief that if you are not writing your own design, your rules, you're going to be living with somebody else's priority, somebody else's role. So like, try to do that. I think this first thing is finding out where you're standing at the moment. And then also deciding where you want to go. And when you have these two points set in stone for yourself at the moment, you can decide how to get there from where you are, where you want to go. So basically, a first-aid kit is a very easy, very simple structure to start thinking about what you've got. You are just laid off and you have a lot of things going on, but there's going to be something that you have on your hand, like your work skills, your reputation, your network from the previous work. There's going to be something that you can hold on to and then make some use out of it as well. And then there's going to be something that you would think of as the next step or the steps that you want to take in five, ten years, you're going to see it through before you can make a jump to the next available thing. So that's something that I'm trying to do with the first aid kit for you to like, start thinking a little bit more positively with, you know, all the great things that you have built and earned.

Gina Hudel: [06:16] Love it. Obviously, people are using it and you should feel good about that. And then as I was looking at your site again, I was just mesmerized by this kind offering that you had. I saw that you had something larger called the Career Bounce Back workbook. Tell us about that.

Hisun Kim: [06:37] As a founder, you get to do a lot of different things. And I've been on both sides of laying people off and being laid off. I know that things are not easy. I've been in a small scale of things in my company, but I know people very personally. And then the other side of this is that I'm very much a person who's doing personal planning. I've been doing personal planning for the last 19 years. So I've been doing it every year, and I have like some time set up and then doing some plannings about my previous year and the retrospective of the previous year, planning for the next year, trying to see where I want to go in the long run and how am I moving my needles towards that way. So that has been shared first with the friends and family, and then they share their frameworks to their friends and family. And it has become my small business as well. And then I am coming from this personal planning background. I have done a lot of corporate planning, corporate, you know, quarters and the years planning, but we figured out that we're not doing that much planning for our personal self, personal life. So that's where I got started. But then like looking into this layer of crisis recently, it was hitting me. Same principle of that, I need to see where I'm sitting right now, and then I need to see where I want to go and then start strategizing how to get there. It's working exactly the same for my career, my profession yourself as well. So that's how I started from my previous background of personal planning into career planning. So I'm not coming from the HR background. I am more coming from the product perspective and startup perspective, as well as a personal planning perspective.

Gina Hudel: [08:33] Proven backgrounds. I mean, they've both worked for you professionally and personally experienced their that's transferable. People have come to you for coaching and counseling in the past, family and friends. And maybe it's refreshing that we have expertise, but sometimes that lens can skew. And so you're not laden by boundaries and rules and other people's structure. Maybe that comes from your user, your design background. You had always been practicing this. You had empathy for those who had lost their jobs, you put the first aid kit together. And then I guess you were getting some feedback from people that they were finding jobs. And you went, people seem to appreciate how I package up tips and the insights. And that led to the Career Bounce Back workbook. And I think that's not the only one you have. Did I see recently you have a mid-year check in too?

Hisun Kim: [09:28] Yeah. So I do these yearly plans. So I call that as yearly personal planning. And then I've been distributing and publishing my yearly personal planning Framework workbook for years now. And recently I got feedback from people who're doing the personal planning with this framework that they want to have a check in point in the mid-year. So I have been giving them mid-year checkpoint workbook, as well as workshops and giving them some more of a structure, how to think about like their past six months and how to strategize for the next six months. I do a lot of personal planning. Things are not going exactly as I planned, but I try to celebrate like six months has happened and then I survived. That's great. And then let's plan for the next six months. So that's why I was giving this like a media review framework for people.

Gina Hudel: [10:23] Brilliant. And it's all on your website, MePlan.

Hisun Kim: [10:25] Yeah, it is meplan.com.

Gina Hudel: [10:29] Perfect. Now you are based in California. You're in Silicon Valley. You've been there a few years. I think we said 14. So that's you know, you've seen a few things. I mean, has it just changed so radically? Is it black and white? Are people looking at their careers massively differently than before or a career is still a career as a career. It's just that the factors and the environment around us are changing.

[00:11:56] You know, it is changing quite a bit recently. I mean, Silicon Valley has always been very dynamic in terms of career changes. People said the average tenure is a valley in the tech sector. Engineering areas are usually 2 to 3 years, which is much lower than average industry. So we have seen a lot of layoffs as well in the past. Things are shifting. There's you know, layoffs come in waves. And then there's big hires coming in waves as well. Things are shifting a lot in the past in like, you know, the decades that I've been here. But still, like recently, it is changing really, really fast. With AI changing the industry, a lot of things are something that we haven't seen before. So I do not grasp the entire thing, but I hear some anecdotes here and there from friends and acquaintances, how they are laid off, and they are still trying to find jobs and how they are preparing for the eventual layoffs, eventual job changes.

Gina Hudel: [12:03] So they're not expecting stability. And to be fair, in Silicon Valley, I don't think a lot of people had 25, 30 year careers. But you feel that even with that 2 to 3 year tenure that they might have had before and some might have had eight, you feel that they're not even looking at that timeline. Are they looking at contract work?

Hisun Kim: [12:24] There's a lot of changes in there, too. I mean, a lot of friends that I'm hearing from, I'm old, so my friends are having some tenures in there under their belt as well. But like they are feeling this time, it is very different. Previously we were thinking, oh, these layoffs are happening, but I'll, you know, do some contract jobs and I'll find a job pretty soon when the economy turns back. But this time people are thinking about, do I still stay in the tech sector or do I go somewhere else, something more permanent, something that doesn't involve tech entirely? So I think there are some changes in the conversations, some changes in the sentiments.

Gina Hudel: [13:07] That's very interesting. What are you practically seeing people do?

Hisun Kim: [13:11] I think people are still figuring out, still figuring out, and they are trying to see how their life could be very different. I mean, AI has shaken a lot of basic assumptions that we had, that we thought that our job would be there, our expertise will be valued. You know, our years of industry will do something that is now upside down. And then we're trying to figure out, hey, is that the time that we can continue with this same path that we've been in, or is that something that I gotta reinvent ourselves to something totally different? We're still figuring it out.

Gina Hudel: [13:52] Yeah. That's fair. Do you know anyone who has left the building?

Hisun Kim: [13:58] Yeah, some of them. Some of them entirely.

Gina Hudel: [14:02] What are they doing? They're going back home. Where? You know, they grew up. Are they following partners?

Hisun Kim: [14:08] Some of my friends who are going back to where they came from, like where the living expenses are cheaper and they have family and friends. They have support and other friends who are studying our business, which is not related to tech at all. So they are doing a mom and pop shop suddenly, and then they find joy from something that they didn't even think about before. People are retiring as well and lots of different things are happening.

Gina Hudel: [14:40] Entrepreneurship is a big one. Do you find people asking you for tips on entrepreneurship, and are you building that into your books, into your guides? Are you referring them to elsewhere? What sort of tips do you have to folks that are thinking of going into entrepreneurship?

Hisun Kim: [14:56] So I do not particularly give tips for entrepreneurship. I think it is more fundamental than that. It is really about you doing yourself very well. I mean, a lot of times we have been just following the flow throughout our career, one after another. The next best thing, next lucrative things, next exciting things. But it is a really rare chance for us to sit down and think, what am I really excited about? What is really important for me? What is the most important thing for me? What is the highest priority for me at the moment? For me, for my family, for my kids? Giving us more of a chance to think through something that we haven't thought before because it was moving so fast. I'm giving more of these advices. You got to really think. You got to really figure it out. You got to really know your true self. Then you can have your priorities right? And then you're going to have a plan A, plan B, plan C, and you know how to follow through. Like how to do entrepreneurship, how to do the next job hunting. Is something that comes after that. So it is more about like, start with yourself first.

Gina Hudel: [16:14] You're encouraging people to acknowledge their stress. But even though there's stress, you've got to have discipline practically, then kind of want to maybe look at the first aid kit before you might get laid off. Is that kind of what you're thinking?

Hisun Kim: [16:27] I'm coming from the industry, which is a very precarious at the moment. Right. But job prospective employment perspective. And we all know, like things can happen anytime. So I talk to my friends in the tech sector. Hey you know, just get your ducks counted first. Find out where you stand. What is the thing that nobody ever can take off from you? And then, like, what are you holding on to and how you're going to be able to create your job or your life path. If something is all going off of where you're standing and then like, you know, just we don't know what's going to happen or these layoffs are happening without my control, but there's got to be something that I have under my control, my skill sets, my savings, my sanity, my mental health, something that I have control on. We should really hold on to it. And then like, you know, getting those things straight and then like, savor those things and then you can choose what next path that you are going to make with your priority. So that's something that I'm like telling all the friends, you know, before anything happens to you, hopefully nothing happens. But before anything happens to you, just get to know yourself, your situations.

Gina Hudel: [17:55] Would you have any anecdotes that you'd be comfortable sharing? Anyone who did lose their job or their contract ended early on and they used your guidebook and they came back to you and said, you know, I had this moment and this helped me how?

Hisun Kim: [18:13] Yeah. So a friend of mine knew that I've been doing this personal planning for years. Right. And then he knew that I was doing these things, but like before his company was contemplating the layoffs. And like the rumor went out to the press, he didn't think that much about it. And then he knew that there's going to be layoffs announced in like two weeks. And then he came to me and he was like, I know that you are doing this thinking framework. Where can I find it? And I told him where to find it. And he was like, you know, carving out one weekend afternoon and went through like this guided thinking frameworks about it asking him about how you see yourself, where you are standing right now and where you want to go and how do you see yourself getting there. It's not giving him any answer. It is just like asking questions and then maybe just kind of like giving him an excuse to really sit down and think through something that he was avoiding to think through, right? Because it is tough to think about these things. And there's whole other things that he can do in life. But like, you know, just giving the experience to really go through these hard questions. Then he came back and said, hey, I know that this can happen. Like the layoff can happen, but I feel like I have some plan. Whether it happens or not happens. So he got affected, unfortunately, but he was way calmer than he thought he would be.

Gina Hudel: [19:51] So I'm actually thinking brilliant that the first aid kit is available for the person who's panicking and they've just, you know, lost their gig. But it might be just helpful for anyone to take a look at, just to start to get their ducks in a row is what you're saying and kind of you to make it available. And then if it's inspiring, you know, take a look at, you know, your other, your other publications and, and look at you, you know, look at you are doing something constructive and positive and giving back to your community wanting to share, and you've made your own pivot here. Did you ever imagine?

Hisun Kim: [20:33] So it is also very much like self-discovery as well for me. I have built, founded and co-founded two companies, the latest one I closed two years ago. And then I went through like big burnout, like the biggest burnout mentally, physically, health wise, everything burnt out. Then it was taking a long time for me to rebuild my health, rebuild my mental curiosity, rebuild the courage to come back to the industry and talk to people, even though it is all through like some like, you know, some self reflection. What do I want in life? What is the most important thing for me right now? What I want to do is like short future, longer future. And how do I get there was like really hard questions. I wanted to avoid them as much as possible because it's giving me pain to think about those things, right? But like being able to go through this thinking frameworks and like being really honest about myself, I was gradually finding my way back. And I really appreciate that I had accumulated this practice over years of how to think through these frameworks. And then I actually pressured myself to do that myself as well.

Gina Hudel: [21:59] In some ways, it's almost like you're a teacher, you're a coach. I mean, when you were growing up, did you ever think you might be a teacher or coach or did other people say you're a natural teacher?

Hisun Kim: [22:10] Not at all. I was like, growing up, I was the most impatient person. I always love it.

Gina Hudel: [22:17] Love it. So this is your transition. This is the next evolution for you.

Hisun Kim: [22:23] Indeed.

Gina Hudel: [22:24] Brilliant. You have this new lifestyle and it takes pacing to adapt to a new lifestyle. You know, being in a startup and then coming through the other side of a health adventure, and now being this person who's a professional coach and mentor, and you're teaching people with your publications here, and that's, that's using a side of your brain that you've used before and that's keeping that busy. But also, you're practicing activities that you haven't practiced before. So you're learning, learning, learning that is very draining. And you have time that you're talking to strangers and that, you know, and being on your best behavior there and minding your own, you know, body language. And then you've got a lot of intense time. It's got to be tiring. How is it that you're pacing yourself and how is it, you know, after a long week, because the workweek is still a traditional workweek. There's still a tradition you know, it's more often than not that workweek finishes on a Friday night. And then we have that traditional weekend, not everywhere, but for most. How is it that you're unwinding and making sure that you have the energy to continue to move forward?

Hisun Kim: [23:34] You know, for most of my career, I was in a very fast paced environment. You know, tech sector startups even saw more that everything needs to happen very fast. Speed is everything. You got to make this happen. So, you know, as I'm kind of like an antidote for those, I started to take on some hobbies that take time. Like gardening was one thing. I mean, I cannot grow my plants so fast. Even if I want to, I still gotta wait. I still see the seed sprouting out. Give it time. You know, it's not happening for me fast enough, but it is taking time, my patience. But like, if I wait and do the things I should be doing, it is rewarding. The same thing happens with other habits of mine. I'm a really slow runner, but I enjoy running and then I train myself to be able to run for longer distance. It doesn't happen overnight. I mean, however hard I feel, I cannot run a half marathon in like two weeks. I gotta train for like five months, six months to be able to do that. So I'm taking those time taking habits and I train to train myself to like, be okay with being patient, being slow, not being able to see the outcome right away.

Gina Hudel: [25:03] I mean, that is quite a life lesson and most people in this fast moving world, but most people are go, go, go. And everyone says you should slow down and you should, you know, develop some patience because a lot of us are cranky at the end of the day. That's really quite genius. You choose hobbies that force you. They train you. I love that. That's outstanding. Very good. And I think you do a bit of travel, don't you?

Hisun Kim: [25:30] I do, I love traveling, and recently I got a little bit of freedom of where I can be working from. So I'm trying to take advantage of it. And I'm traveling to Asia mostly recently. And then I try to see my parents in Korea more often as they are getting older.

Gina Hudel: [25:49] Well, I'm so inspired by this and I love how you're giving back and you're being so gracious and sharing this expertise that other people would really charge the utmost for by taking advantage of other people in difficult times. And then that is just the opposite of what it is that you're doing. And again forcing yourself to slow down by doing that in your hobbies. Now that's genius. That's you got me there, I gotta say. So Hisun, thank you for this. I keep coming back to something you said before deciding what comes next. Understand where you're standing. What do you already have? What matters to you. What remains within your control? Listening to you. I was also thinking about how easily we can assume that when something changes, we immediately need an answer. A new job, a new direction, a reinvention. But maybe not. Maybe sometimes the first step is simply to pay attention to what has changed, to what hasn't, and to what those experiences might be telling us. Hisun, thank you for sharing yours with us, and thank you for listening to Ready for Beyond. I'll see you next time.