Masculinity, Performance, and Who Gets to Define Strength

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Welcome to Raw and Refine the Gentleman's Hour, where we're
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going to have engaging conversation with middle aged black men
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about what's going on.
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We welcome you to listen, like, comment, and subscribe with
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the hope that we will encourage others to join us
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for future conversations. We always like to start off with
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a toast, and with that toast, it's because we're gentlemen
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and we like to do it raw and refined.
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All right, fellas well, let's go ahead and toast us
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up today, being how the weather has been an influence
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on things at this time. I went with a hot
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toddy that people can adjust to their liking. But I
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did a maple tea that we got from Canada. It's delicious, man,
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It's a maple tea from from Canada. At its lemon,
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some honey and for those that want to take it
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up a notch. I don't know if you've heard of
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winter Jack. Winter Jack comes in a white bottle and
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they have a cider flavor that you add about an
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ounce to that knockout whatever you got going on at
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least for the moment.
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That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right.
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Say permanent. Ain't nobody worried about permanent?
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Me warm you up in many ways.
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Now talking about rat Now that's what I got.
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What you're doing today, Well, for me, I've got I
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started these sort of seltzered things Topo Chico and this
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this is non alcoholic one, but it's really really cool.
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It's like twist with grapefruit in it. You can get
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them now with alcohol in them. But it's basically sparkling water.
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And obviously it's Mexican, but it's Topo Chico. It's very
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refreshing and very addictive on top of it. So I'm
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rocking with the Topo Chicos today, A nice.
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Nice Well, I'm in just my basic hydration mode right
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now because I had a coffee earlier today, did that
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which I don't do often more often than not, if
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I've got a hot beverage, it's usually tea, but did
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do some coffee today. So right now I'm just hydrating.
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So I got my my hit my yetti field with
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my you know, my homemade gatorade like elixir, the water,
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large juice, right, the water, lemon juice, a little bit
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of the salt and a little stevia, you know.
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Yeah, you go, keeps me, keeps me hydrated there, brother, So.
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That's all I'm doing for right now, getting the body
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back right, because coffee will it messes with the hydration
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levels and stuff.
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Especially when you're not when you don't do it all
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the time. Mm hmm.
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It's kind of the same approach I have when I
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when I drink outcohol because I don't drink that often.
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So when I do, I'm making sure that I got
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along with the beverage. I guess some water with it.
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Always good to hydrate with that as well. So great point,
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trying to trying not to be all made to the body,
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trying to do right bad on occasion. So we're gonna
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jump on into things today. We're talking about something and
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this it's an interesting topic, I think, and it came
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out of some well we've had a we had a
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good year this year in Chicago in terms of the
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NFL football.
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Right there, the Chicago Bears did their thing. They're down.
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It was interesting And I'm a point right here because
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that's where the logo is gonna pop up.
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Bank.
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Well, I shouldn't say logo, I should say that the
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design that we created posted on the page right before
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that last game. It was it's kind of dope. So
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they saw it. So Caleb got his did his thing.
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Mm hmm, drops the calub He did it. He did
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his thing.
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There was some Cats last season that fairly we're questioning
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them on some levels because the accuracy was kind of
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all over the place, right, I mean he was also
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he got sacked a whole bunch. That wasn't always his fault.
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Sometimes he may have held onto the rock a little long,
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but when you got Swiss cheese for a line.
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It's kind of hard to not run for your life.
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There was.
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All in all, this season was an incredible step up
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from last season. This was a great season for the Bears.
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Chicago Bear fans were excited. All phases, you Ben Johnson,
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blah blah, etc. Right, all right, dope season.
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Right.
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So, but one of the things that kept kind of
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hanging around in the background through all of this, and
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it was often it was interesting when Greg mentioned it
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once and this was we talk about the text thread
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that the three of us have and have had consistently
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for years, and this was something Greg mentioned and it
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was something that I'd seen too. I'd see it in
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like comments on Facebook and stuff.
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Like that.
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People would get Caleb as props and they would say
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things like and even with the fingernails, or I'm not
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gonna hold the nails against them or and all this.
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And this is in reference to the fact that the
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brother usually had always had his nails painted on different colors. Right,
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Some might not have known that he was doing it,
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And it was an homage to his.
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Mom because his mom lifelong nail tech.
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I don't want to misstate the profession and what she was,
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but some call them nail texts and things like that,
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you hooked up nails for a living. And so he
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did that as an homage to his mom, right, because
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she was a mom who supported him always and helped
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him get to where he was going to become this
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league leading quarterback already. But the nails, for some people,
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it's a real sticking point, right, And so that was
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kind of the jump off, and it got us to
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thinking about this concept of masculinity, right and king at
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So we were kind of bouncing around and talking about
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are there differences a generational differences on racial lines and
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all kinds of different things. It just was like this
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could make for an interesting conversation. So we decided we
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were gonna jump all into this. So what we got
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today is masculinity, performance and who gets to define strong? Right, So,
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masculinity is one of those words everybody thinks they understand
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until you ask them to define it. Today's conversation started
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with something small, a quarterback painted fingernails and a reaction
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from some fans that felt maybe outsized, And the more
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we sat with it, the clear it became that it
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really wasn't about football. Football might have been the vehicle
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for this, but it's really about strength and who gets
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to define it, who gets to say what is strength?
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And why some expressions of masculinity are questioned while others
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are celebrated even when the evidence says otherwise. So we're
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gonna talk sports today. We're gonna talk race, We're gonna
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talk culture and power. But more than anything, we're gonna
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talk about the rules, the spoken and unspoken, that shape
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how men are allowed to show up. This is raw
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and refined, so let's get into it.
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Sounds good, brother, great intro to this topic.
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I think it is something that's gonna bring out a
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lot of conversation and thoughts and ideas, and what you
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said earlier about generationally be great to hear some comments
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we go along with our conversation today as well.
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Yeah, so Caleb sort of being the spark, Caleb Williams
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being sort of the spark of this conversation really really
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is interesting. And by the way, Caleb is kind of
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faced this type of attention at least since his time
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at USC when he won the Heisman Trophy.
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I can't remember vividly.
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I don't remember what game it was, but I remember
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it was a game that he lost, and after the
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game he jumped into the stands and was crying with
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his mom. This is him as a college quarterback. I
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think he had won the Heisman the year before, and
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he was considered to be a generational player right going
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to be the high had won the Heisman, was likely
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to be a number one draft choice. But him jumping
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into the stands and crying with his mother really landed
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with a certain segment of the population in the way
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that was really interesting in some ways troubling to me.
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And then you added then this idea that he was
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painting his nails, and so it became a whole thing
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around Caleb that continues to this day about his masculinity
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and particularly for a.
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Violent sport like football.
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What does it mean that Caleb Williams paints his nails
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and he cries to his mom when he loses. And
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so it was this cottage industry of should he even
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be the first pick because he's kind of soft and
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not the strongest guy in the world. So the tone
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and the language of the critique of Caleb really started.
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Before he even got into the NFL.
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That only got louder once he did get into the NFL,
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And it just occurred to me, here's a guy who
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was an exceptional talent, played a position that's the hardest
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position perhaps in any team sport, yet the critique of
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him was that somehow he was not masculine enough because
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he cried and got emotional and painted his nails. And
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so it just occurred to me that there's a conversation
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that is happening, whether we're participle pating in it or not,
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about what it even means to be masculine or what
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it means to be tough in our society and in
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our culture. And so Caleb was kind of the spark,
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I think, for this conversation, but it's obviously bigger and
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it's been a longer question and debate that precedes Caleb.
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I think GK during this our conversation, you bring up
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those points, it just shows and we'll talk more. I'm
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sure about the difference generationally about this. We talked about
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this and other episodes of we used to just have
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to suck those tears up, EQUI stop crying tough enough,
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and that's what we grew up with. So when you
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see that vulnerability opening up now, definitely much more than
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what it did when we were coming up that questions, Okay,
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what is masculinity? Like you said, so this is what
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kind of helped us to come with this conversation. But
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I appreciate, at least from what I can tell so far,
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that Caleb at least feels comfortable with his vulnerability as well.
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He will cry and cry and is totally fine to
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be able to do that and express those feelings. Yet
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he's out there on the field playing one of the
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hardest sports out there to play, and in quarterback you
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are considered the leader, so you are leading this team
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regardless of all of that as well, and he has
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no shame in his game when it comes to his nails,
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and when he explained what that meant he really, let's
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be real, he didn't have to explain anything to anybody,
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but society as it is, felt that needed an explanation,
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and he gave it and let us know that this
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is an honor to his mom, and that's.
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Why he does it.
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I think it's amazing that we are seeing young men
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at this time feeling more comfortable in their vulnerability, which
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now defines a new aspect of masculinity in my opinion
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as well.
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Well, you know, it's funny, he's not the first one
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could do it. He's not even the first one in
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his generation to do it. I think it was Jalen Green,
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who played for the Rockets, had a certain amount of
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attention given to him because he was doing the same thing.
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And of course we all know that Dennis Roden then
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took it.
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To right fire right in the where it wasn't simply
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painting his nails.
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He actually wore a dress right, took photos with a
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dress on right. And so this whole question is just
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it's always been an interesting thing to reflect on, and
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I think the generational question is an important one too.
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But it's also important to remember that he's not the
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first one to bend that those rules a little bit
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and let's go back, man. I mean ear rings.
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Let's think about when ear rings first started coming out
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and guys were wearing ear rings and question of what
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side are you wearing it on? And what does that mean?
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And right right, you wearing it on both sides? Like okay, well,
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who was Aaron mj Michael Jordan. I mean one of
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the powerhouses out there had of their ring. Now it
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becomes more acceptable because you're seeing figures that you considered
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to be masculine enough to do that, and it's like, oh, okay,
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I think I can wear one now too, and it
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becomes mainstream. It's just a form of jewelry and accessory
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now that men wear as well.
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But yeah, I mean, I think I think one thing
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about Caleb sorry Hollins would go ahead, go ahead. The
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one thing I'll say about Caleb that really sort of
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brought it home for me this past season is it
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simply the fact that it's football.
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It's the fact that he is a tough dude.
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People don't even realize he hasn't missed a single gang
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right for all of the sacks he took last year,
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like some record number of sacks right, Like you talk
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about the embodiment of physically tough. To have not missed
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a single game since he got in the league in
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two years, that to me is a very embodiment the
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physical and mental toughness that it takes to just have
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accomplished That should put all of that nonsense to rest
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alas it has not.
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Well, let's be real about one thing, and that is
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is that athleticism isn't necessarily masculine, right, And what I
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mean is is you can be in You could be
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a man who's an incredible athlete, but be otherwise very
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feminine in your behavior. So it's not inherently masculine to
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be very athletic. Part of his success is because he's
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in most cases one of, if not the most athletic
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cats on the field.
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At every level. It has been that way.
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We saw that this season with his escapability last year,
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that athleticism wasn't saving his butt because he had a
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Swiss cheese line. That's where that mental toughness piece came in.
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Not only was he taking all of those hits, he
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was hopping up and he was not blaming his line.
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He was not getting mad at his teammates He was
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not showing frustration towards anybody. It was simply it is
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what it is. We'll talk about how much that heard later,
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come on, we got another play to do. So that
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piece of it, I think for me, was that leadership piece.
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He absorbed all of that. Who knows, he might have
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got on the phone with his mom and crowd a
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little later because he got hit really hard about forty
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two times in that game or something like that because
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he was taking some shots. But in terms of leading
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that team and showing all of those cats that I
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got you back and we're going to continue to push
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this forward. He was an incredible leader in that respect.
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I think, so very very impressive. But to your point,
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it took mental forty two, physical toughness on an extremely
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high level to do all of that, and then I
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think in that off season he put that other side
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of that leadership piece. Was that him figuring out and
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working on what do I need to do so that
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I don't have to go through that again.
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So it was impressive all around.
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But it's not just about him while we're talking, but
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part of it was is because of that, right, because
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a lot of that really was very emotional for people,
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and but for the success, how many brothers would have
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forgiven that?
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Right?
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Because I mean, like literally, I'm seeing one of the
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responses I saw for multiple people was because they were winning,
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there was acceptance even despite or despite the nails or
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even even though he's got them like that out he
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a man. Now if they weren't having that success, would
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they be as cool with the nails then?
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Right? Exactly exactly.
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Think I think he's a window into really sort of
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our broader societal issues around identity. And as we're talking
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about masculinity, I would even say femininity too, or how
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we act to people that don't fit the stereotypes of
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certain expectations. And I think that that's part of it too,
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And I think that's also a generational thing, a shift
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that is happening.
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I think you've mentioned, Hollis, how Caleb.
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Has been an elite player for his entire life, right,
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And he didn't grow up in a stereotypical way. We
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had a lot of support from his family, his mom
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and dad, and so he developed the teams. Anyway, from
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where I said, an emotional intelligence that was purposeful and
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like sort of poured into him by his family and
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other folks, and it's just a different kind of kid
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than I think much of America is used to that.
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I think a lot of us might be used to that.
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A lot of folks just haven't seen at that scale
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in a public way.
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M h, I can.
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I definitely agree with that. Yeah, I mean this, go ahead, Rick,
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I'm sorry.
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I was just thinking about this notion of what should
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matter more? Is it expression or performance?
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Right?
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And so that was going back to what I was saying,
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if he hadn't performed as well this year, what people
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have more of an issue with his expression?
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And at what point should that matter? Right?
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They should kind of exist parallel, right, This is how
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he expresses himself, this is how he plays or performs.
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But that's where we're at.
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To add to that, I'm just going to say that,
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look at masculinity, femininity as you brought it up, GK,
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is that it's really defined by how society expects someone
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to behave either as a male being masculinity as a
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female as it relates to femininity, but there are definitely
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traits that we all share in some form or fashion
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as well. And I think you're right Rich when you
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said if he didn't do as well, would that be
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more highlighted about here we go again, does he have
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the ability strength to really be able to carry this
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Bears team, you know, to the next level.
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And busy buffin right exactly type deal.
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Versus you know whatever you know that needs to be
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to be to be the be the QB QB one
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for for the Bears and help us get this next
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level appearance and hopeful championship down the right down the
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road as well too. So it's all about expectations, man,
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And that's why I really appreciate this conversation. I had
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to to kind of understand really what we were trying
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to talk about today. Hopefully we're shaping this up for
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our audience as to different aspects of what masculinity it
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looks like. And as of now, just kind of starting
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off with Caleb Williams and all he was able to achieve,
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as we do celebrate our Bears being Chicago team as
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well too.
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Yeah, I think I think that provides a good jump off,
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and I think it really is there's a lot of
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other space or an interesting conversation and this you know
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norms right, that's a term that can run through this
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conversation quite easily. And be important in a number of
359
00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.599
ways because when we're thinking about things like this, what
360
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we're talking about cultural norms, we're talking about business norms,
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we're talking about political norms, we're talking about social norms.
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All of this, right, this notion of groups kind of
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defining what is and what isn't or what's supposed to be,
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or what's right, or what's inbounds, what's out of bounds,
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what's devined? Right, all kinds of different labels we could
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attach to these things that we're talking about, because I'll
367
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throw one out there for me, right, something that defines
368
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a man for me, professionally, historically.
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Right.
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I was a trial lawyer before I got an education.
371
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One of the things that drove me crazy was seeing
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a man walk into court with a shoulder bag. I'm
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old schooled, and this just happens to be sitting here
374
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because this is near my desk.
375
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But I'm old You did it. Used to make a
376
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big deal out of that. This is supposed to be
377
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in your hand. You see.
378
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:16.079
Ryan actually has some things for the straps, but you
379
00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.480
don't use them. You don't put that thing on your shoulder.
380
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.880
You walk down the street and you care preferably with
381
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a bent arms right ninety degrees.
382
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:27.039
I feel like that. I don't care how heavy it is.
383
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.160
I don't care how much stuff you got in there,
384
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.759
what you've since evolved from that perspective. I'm going to
385
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:33.559
go out on the limb.
386
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.119
Yes, so I'm going to say, if it's really heavy,
387
00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:37.759
you know, you carry it, you get the bag with
388
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.039
the wheels on it, and did you push that bad
389
00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.920
feller in while while you've got your briefcase in your
390
00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.759
in your other hand or something.
391
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:50.559
But so, just a slight evolution on that particular issue.
392
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.480
With your messenger bags out there. That is, if you're
393
00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.039
a messenger, if you're a message in your back and
394
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.680
shoulder every well, right.
395
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.359
Yeah, if you're a delivery, if you're a delivery cat
396
00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:07.720
or something, but you're walking into you know, no, don't
397
00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:08.200
do that either.
398
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.640
That's sexual attacky, that's sextually tacky. No, I've done that
399
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.559
too on occasion.
400
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.799
But no, in all seriousness, there's something.
401
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:17.839
Yeah, maybe little evolution, but no, that that's what we're
402
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.240
talking about here, right, what defines what?
403
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.640
Who gets to say what and why?
404
00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.200
And I'm gonna I'm gonna hammer that performance part a
405
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.440
lot because the reality is is that.
406
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.119
We have historically allowed our high performers more room.
407
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:33.000
Right.
408
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:35.960
We talked about it in an earlier episode where I
409
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.799
was talking about us that provids oist.
410
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:40.440
Oh you notice that background, right, that's right.
411
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.920
That provisal east during the basketball season. During that my
412
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:46.599
junior year, when we were going far into the to
413
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.680
the state our run to try to get down state
414
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.799
and we were playing well, forms within the school were relaxed.
415
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.880
We got to wear our hats inside and walk around.
416
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.359
But as soon as we lost better, I had that
417
00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.359
hat on anymore. Right, It was like, hey, what you're doing, man?
418
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:05.519
Take that out right, right? Right? Right? Something the levels
419
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.279
you know, performance based. But it's just an interesting thing.
420
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.039
I think that the amount of leeway that certain people
421
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:12.599
get in society.
422
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:13.440
As long as you win it.
423
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.279
Well, you know, it's a fascinating thing because sports is
424
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:20.799
usually one of the ways in which society sort of
425
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.559
thinks about Like it's so important as society sort of
426
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.480
wrestles with thinks about masculinity, right, Like sports is so
427
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:33.119
central to so much of it all, and it's really
428
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.519
a window not so much just the sports, but our
429
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:40.119
reaction to sports and athletes and all of that stuff.
430
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:45.200
They are so interconnected that it is a good window
431
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.440
to me in which we should wrestle with this question,
432
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.359
because you can tell a lot about how people respond
433
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.759
to people and like their views about certain things based
434
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.079
upon the athlete that they like or the athlete that
435
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.880
they don't like. To me, Lebron James, is it sort
436
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.400
of another example of a controversial, if you will, athlete
437
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:12.160
whose persona as such is often questioned, like it's like
438
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.519
they call him laflop, they call him he could cries,
439
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:18.200
like all these things about him. One of the ongoing
440
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.720
memes about him is after he leaves a prece event
441
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.640
and he grabs his bag and walks out, and I like,
442
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.440
you're speaking of the bag with the handle, he grabs
443
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:31.799
his bag and he walks out.
444
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.960
I don't even have to explain it what I'm talking about.
445
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.400
And so that sort of that image of him as
446
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:42.480
like questioning is very masculinity, is fascinating for a guy
447
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:45.880
who's forty one years old, has played at the highest
448
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.839
level for twenty some years, is married with like, is
449
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.880
that what is in fact masculinity? If that's not it
450
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.759
right or some example an example of it?
451
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.119
And I think with that for Lebron.
452
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.319
So yeah, guys know, me and Lebron has have our
453
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:08.079
own differences type deal. I'm definitely a MJ man And
454
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.039
that's that's my god, that's gonna.
455
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:16.119
Be said that, like they've actually met and had actual right.
456
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:18.200
That's what I'm saying, right right, you know, So that's it.
457
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.880
But I'm like, what did you not tell us about
458
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:21.839
You're right.
459
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.720
Right right.
460
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:26.079
Charlotte game or something.
461
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.839
You know you're right though, I give you what you said,
462
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.319
Greg about he has definitely played at a level for
463
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.799
a long time that not many players can really say
464
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.599
that as well. The question comes up our generation, I'll say,
465
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.039
to the new generation, could Lebron have survived? But our
466
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.960
generation playing with the Detroits and the Dallas and those
467
00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.319
players that when you came in, you you can expect
468
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.480
an elbow to your chest, to your face and you
469
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:55.839
had to just get up and play through it type deal.
470
00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.920
In this this time and error, he's like, well, Dad,
471
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:01.720
he can get hit and he flopping already.
472
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:02.359
Type deal.
473
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:08.519
So to the rules of the time, right, Barkley said
474
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:09.960
it said.
475
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:12.720
It, everybody would not have Everybody was been trying to
476
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:13.839
avoid him.
477
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.799
Yeah, he was playing during that era.
478
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:18.200
He would have had the same body, but he would
479
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.319
have had the he would have had the same mentality
480
00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:22.519
as all of them because they would have been playing
481
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:25.920
under the liddle, playing And if he would have been
482
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.559
in that era, he would have been just like them.
483
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.799
He would have been calm, alone, but bigger and faster, right,
484
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:35.279
And that's the thing.
485
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:37.960
So that's all, you know, And that's where I think
486
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.039
you're going to have to have whatever those comparisons ours
487
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.799
relates to that. But really what I was getting that
488
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:47.559
with that is that brings the question again how we
489
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:53.039
look at masculinity. So is it the level of trauma?
490
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.200
Is it the level of damage? Is it the level
491
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.160
of how you.
492
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:04.440
Rise from that versus just your ability to truly be
493
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.960
who you are in that era of space that we're
494
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.400
in at that time. You see what I'm saying. So
495
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.160
I just said that to say it like that, because yeah,
496
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.599
it was a different time, man, We didn't you know,
497
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:20.799
it's not one hundred and forty point games that we
498
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.440
see every night type deal. You were great if you
499
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.599
if you got a hundred, that was an amazing game.
500
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:27.359
Type deal.
501
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.480
Now that's almost expected that you should be, you know,
502
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.759
scoring one hundred points a game and stuff, but it
503
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:35.680
was definitely a different a different game at that time,
504
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:37.839
and even before him, it was a different game before
505
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.640
himj was in there as well, so there's evolution in
506
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:42.960
all of this as well.
507
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:44.799
But yeah, to get back to.
508
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.000
Lebron, I think he has done tremendous for the game
509
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:50.880
of basketball as well. I'm still not going to be
510
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.359
on the bandwagon, but I think he does have the
511
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:57.519
statistics in the in the background to support him being
512
00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:59.319
a one of the greats.
513
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:01.160
Well.
514
00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:04.759
I think this notion of old school versus new school
515
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.960
cuts across all kinds of different things, right, And one
516
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:10.960
of the things that you touched on John, as I
517
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.480
was looking in the notes was was really with this
518
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:20.160
note that old masculinity glorified suffering, mature masculinity values adaptation,
519
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:23.359
and so putting that in simpler terms, that's why so
520
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.759
many people picked Jordan over Lebron, because Jordan's from that
521
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:31.039
time when everybody was stealing on everybody, right, So they
522
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.599
say that it was they say they were tougher, right,
523
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.359
because because you saw how Scotty rolled up out of
524
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.680
that game with the big old head, right that not
525
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:42.200
he had on there and he kept playing when in
526
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.279
today's game, they would have rushed Scotti to the hospital.
527
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:52.799
He wouldn't have been able to continue playing exactly exactly. Dudes,
528
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.759
not was, Dudes not was as big as I mean,
529
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.920
it was almost like that off his fauehead.
530
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.400
I mean, let's be real that it shouldn't. You shouldn't
531
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:02.319
still keep.
532
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:05.799
Playing, right when when you got not that big on
533
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:06.440
your faux head.
534
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:09.839
We should know better now, right, right, right.
535
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:14.640
But that's valued, right, that's the level of toughness, tough
536
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.480
beyond the point of stupid really, But there's that's value
537
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.799
to a certain degree. And but again, like I said
538
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:23.359
on the Lebron thing, if Lebron was playing during that time,
539
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.240
he would have been throwing the same kind of bowls,
540
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:27.759
swinging the same kind of given the same kind of
541
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.519
shots that everybody else was given at that time with
542
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:35.799
that body. So I think everybody, whether you were considered
543
00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:38.279
soft or not, everybody was given at that same level
544
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.119
because that's how everybody played. Like you said, even before
545
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.319
Jordan it got more physical. It's changed over time. Before
546
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.559
Jordan's got in there, it was even more physical, right,
547
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.359
And part of that is because of the level of athleticism.
548
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.759
Over time, the average player is far more athletic than
549
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:57.240
they were thirty years ago, fifty years ago, sixty years ago.
550
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.279
The average player during Jordan's time was not as athleteletic
551
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:02.799
is Jordan. That's part of the reason why he stood out.
552
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:06.240
Everybody wasn't that athletic. There were some who were, but
553
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:10.079
the average the average NBA player now is about as
554
00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:13.720
almost as athletic as Jordan was. The average NBA player
555
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.319
right right, And then you've got those extra special freaks
556
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:20.519
of nature that stand out above them, and Lebron is
557
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:22.359
right up there at the top of that power because
558
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:24.359
if you look at how long he's still doing it,
559
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.240
and he had his head up at the rim the other.
560
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.400
Day right in a game I saw watched. So that
561
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:31.400
part is incredible.
562
00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:33.799
But when we think about this notion of part of it,
563
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.480
what we're dealing with is what's required. This level of
564
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.880
toughness that's acceptable or required has shifted. Because to me,
565
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.640
it's crazy to think that the only way for people
566
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.000
to fully accept him is if he were to able
567
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.480
to transport himself back in time and dominate back then,
568
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.319
and then more of those.
569
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.279
People would be as accepting of him.
570
00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:57.640
I don't need that's really.
571
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:01.960
That it's only because this is a time that is
572
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.160
different for everybody. And I relate this to how we've
573
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:11.440
talked before about our generation is that sandwich generation. Again,
574
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.240
we're experiencing things that no one else is gonna quite
575
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.000
probably experience the way we have so taking care of
576
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:21.799
our parents while trying to raise kids and take care
577
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.519
of ourselves. Seeing how basketball has come into play to
578
00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:28.720
where it is now, we've lived through all of that,
579
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.079
being able to hear it on the radio, but seeing
580
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.519
on TV, going to games and now streaming, you see
581
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:38.119
much more than what was seeing before us. And who
582
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.319
knows what that's gonna look like after us. But we're
583
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:47.039
kind of that first generation to truly experience those different
584
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:50.599
viewpoints of things as well. And this is where, back
585
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:54.400
to the masculinity conversation, I think that's where that evolution
586
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.759
just has to take place, that adaptability has to take place.
587
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:01.079
Seeing men being more vulnerable.
588
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:04.319
Is what we are encouraging because we know that's healthy
589
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.519
for men to be able to express that. But back
590
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.680
in the day, that wasn't what was being taught. That
591
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:18.680
was being shown right right exactly type deal. And and
592
00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:22.160
that's how we viewed masculinity. You know, at that point
593
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.680
type deal. And if you're crying, you were a cry baby,
594
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:27.839
you were this, you were that type you so right
595
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.720
type deal. But nowadays that's like, no, you need to
596
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:33.240
be able to express how you feel it.
597
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:34.839
You need to do that, and.
598
00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:38.759
That's okay, And that's strength and being in setting that
599
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:44.599
in some settings as well well, and it's not. But
600
00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.759
I think that's part of the evolution as well, too.
601
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.359
Right, And and I think we have to start demanding
602
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:52.839
it to that.
603
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:52.720
Right.
604
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.799
We need to make it a to say, normalize it, right,
605
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.599
We need to normalize the ability of people to express
606
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.359
themselves how they choose to express themselves. And because I
607
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:09.079
just feel like part of what's wrong with the culture
608
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:14.000
is that the emotions don't go away. You just sort
609
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.599
of paper over them, and the impact is far more
610
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.359
corrosive over time because you're papering over them. So to me,
611
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.720
I feel like I have learned over time it's better
612
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:27.559
to sort of get them out or be able to
613
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:31.039
deal with them post to sort of somehow hiding them
614
00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:34.720
or paper overing them, because eventually they will reveal themselves
615
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:38.119
and usually it's that in a self destructive way.
616
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.519
I'm sorry, you can't for jumping in a little quick there.
617
00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:44.000
But I think part of the challenge is for a
618
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:48.240
lot of men, first off, is even understanding what those
619
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:51.400
emotions are, because that's not something they've ever been taught.
620
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:51.759
To deal with.
621
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.039
The only acceptable emotion for a lot of men is anger, right,
622
00:33:57.240 --> 00:34:02.119
the only one that's been considered socially acceptable in most settings,
623
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.759
it's for a man to get angry. A lot of
624
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.920
men filter all of their other emotions through an angry lens,
625
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.599
and so because that's the only emotion that's acceptable, that's
626
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.159
the only one that they think is supposed to come out,
627
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:20.639
and so the only way for the other things to
628
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.880
come out is cloaked in anger or misinterpreted because they
629
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:27.480
don't know how to deal with these other ones. The
630
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.559
first level, and the first key is being able to
631
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:34.559
have a full, full emotional vocabulary, right you know you
632
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.840
were using that term emotional intelligence earlier. Understanding the difference
633
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:44.239
between anger and other their emotions, right, or and not
634
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:48.320
confusing things like the pleasure from sex with being happy
635
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:55.920
or something like that, emotions versus physical expressions. I think
636
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.880
it's really important for boys to learn that they have
637
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:04.519
a full spectrum of emotions and learn how to interpret
638
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.519
them and learn how to express them early on. And
639
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:09.440
I think we're kind of we're kind of built with
640
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:12.679
that to a certain degree. But because we are socialized
641
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:15.800
to only express anger, the other ones get kind of
642
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.719
use it. You lose it to a certain degree, muscle rights,
643
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.599
and you don't learn them fully. And so I think
644
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.440
that's I think that can be a challenge, and I
645
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:28.800
think generationally that impacts men. Right if you're being taught
646
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.760
by men that this is what a man is supposed
647
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.079
to do. If the men that are teaching you only
648
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:36.960
know this, then that's all that you might learn unless
649
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:40.039
you stumble across it in some other sources or some
650
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:41.000
other places.
651
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.159
So I wonder this is so interesting, Bruhs, because we
652
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:49.559
talk about this, I keep reflecting on who started that,
653
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:54.440
How you started saying that, Okay, as a man, you
654
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:59.920
aren't allowed to show emotions of caring or or sad,
655
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.639
badness or concern type deal, And where did that stem
656
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:10.280
from it? The only society being a westerniz society that
657
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.400
really perpetrate that. You know, I'd be curious to hear
658
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:17.239
from our audience, you know, from different societies and different cultures.
659
00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:18.159
How is that?
660
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:21.559
How was that through the years type deal, because again,
661
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:26.039
what's what's wrong with the man showing their emotion? But
662
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:29.400
yet does that mean they can't be a provider? Does
663
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.800
that mean they can't be a protector. Does that mean
664
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:35.320
they can't be the one that is still managing the
665
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:39.280
care of the family just because they're showing emotions. How
666
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:42.599
did that actually ever come about? To be like, well, dag,
667
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.480
if you crying, you soft, you're not going to be
668
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.000
able to protect your family.
669
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:50.159
Who said that? How did you know? How did that
670
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:51.280
ever come about?
671
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:56.480
Somebody that shows become acceptable because they whatever, and so
672
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:57.800
it started happening.
673
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:02.119
You had to show, you have to current you somebody
674
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:04.440
gonna mess with you if you're not like our type
675
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.840
deal and it's.
676
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:10.159
Well, you're dealing with people with lacking resources. That's becomes
677
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:11.320
a reality.
678
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.639
Right right, I think it becomes a survival it's a
679
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.760
survival mechanism, if you will, like we.
680
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.400
Was, if it's not still exactly yeah.
681
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:23.280
I think actually I think it probably still is to
682
00:37:23.320 --> 00:37:26.639
an extent. But I just think about just growing up,
683
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:30.440
how I did, how we did. We There were clicks
684
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.159
even in high school, right, like I was part of
685
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:36.119
the house click right, and the way we dressed and
686
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:38.679
the way we hung out, the things we did, they
687
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:41.639
weren't always they were made fun of because for some
688
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.840
people they weren't considered masculine. And then there was another
689
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:48.000
track of people who were doing other things that were
690
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.920
considered more masculine than what we were doing and the
691
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:54.159
way we were dressing. So so it's it's there. There's
692
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:57.639
always been these various currents, and I think part of
693
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.519
is just serve Some of it is just serve vible
694
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:03.639
stuff people, and then you find your group and then
695
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:05.360
you just kind of do what you got to do
696
00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:08.480
to be with that group because with that group, you're
697
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.480
more likely to survive and you have camaraderie and you
698
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.000
build community with that group.
699
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:14.079
It was there was some.
700
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:17.880
Rough times in high school that we lived through, or
701
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.880
at least felt like they were rough times. People making
702
00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:23.519
fun of you because of how you dressed or or
703
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:27.960
the things that you did or liked. Yeah, and we're
704
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:34.039
not even getting into how sexual orientation plays out and
705
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:35.960
the violence that.
706
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.239
The LGBTQ folks have had to endure over the years.
707
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:43.239
We even talking about trans people and like and how
708
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:48.000
those things really continue to really impact people's sense of
709
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:52.840
safety and how they're feeling comfortable expressing themselves. So I
710
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.119
don't have an answer to your questions out about how
711
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:58.079
where it came from. But it's still very much a
712
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.840
part of the culture. But I think we have the
713
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:06.480
opportunity now to normalize something else, and I think that's
714
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:08.519
one of the things we hope to get out of
715
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:11.599
this conversation. Well, and I appreciate that, GK.
716
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:14.400
I appreciate you bringing that aspect of it as well,
717
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:18.000
because that's a very significant aspect of this conversation too.
718
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.480
And part of leading into our.
719
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.199
Next comment is that it's because we're still getting pushback
720
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:30.599
or blocking from white males that are trying to lead
721
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.440
this country. They're trying to silence that, trying to quiet that,
722
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.840
trying to say again that no, that's not acceptable. And
723
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:43.679
here now we're having again redefined Okay, what does masculinity
724
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:46.559
mean and what does that need to look like? Based
725
00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:50.880
on unfortunately, in my opinion, who we have currently in
726
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:54.039
our position of leadership for our society.
727
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.679
So well, we know that our country in the midst
728
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.320
of a pretty radical backlash, if you will, in terms
729
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:08.960
of what it even means to be in masculinity. Again,
730
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.960
the attacks on trans people, the attacks on LGBTQ folks.
731
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:16.440
So the whole thing about Caleb, to me, all of
732
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:20.000
that has to be looked at in the same context
733
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:24.159
because it really is a reflection of the broader society.
734
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:27.800
And we have a person in office now who the
735
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.719
people you talk to that support him, what they love
736
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.400
about him is that he's aggressive. In his words, he's
737
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:36.960
aggressive and it's approach and that I know, people say
738
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:40.280
he's a man's man, right Like, there's a way in
739
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:44.320
which that sort of type of aid that the perception
740
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:48.039
of that as masculinity is what makes him strong and
741
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:50.519
an attractive for a whole bunch of people.
742
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.840
That's so interesting, and it made me think about something
743
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:57.920
I wanted to share with you really quickly. It's a
744
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:01.320
screen capture from my TV when I was I was
745
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:04.840
watching TV the other day and have you seen this commercial.
746
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.079
It's for some kind of enment.
747
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:12.360
For enhancement, right, No, it's for particular aftershape or something
748
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:12.719
like that.
749
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.159
Oh wow, okay, oh geez okay.
750
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.039
But it's called he lives in Manlandia. And so the
751
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:24.280
notion is this, really he's this really masculine dude. You see,
752
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:26.599
he's got his big tamahawk.
753
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.000
And all of that.
754
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:34.000
So yeah, so just what you were talking about, you
755
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:37.559
were just introducing race into this into the conversation. And
756
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.440
so I thought that was that this this notion of
757
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:44.360
black men must prove their masculinity. We're not supposed to
758
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.519
be emotional, We're supposed to be stoics, right, And why
759
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.760
because historically that made the white people more comfortable if
760
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:56.400
just any show of emotion that's volatile, that he's not
761
00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:59.400
able to control himself and therefore that means she's a
762
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.920
danger to me. Let's set aside the reality of who
763
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:08.840
was actually violent, but this notion of right, everything is
764
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.280
going to be scrutinized. Everything is going to be scrutinized. Right,
765
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:15.119
We've seen this historically. It's just in the post Michael Vick.
766
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:19.320
Did it really become everybody again? The performance right made
767
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.440
things more acceptable? And this wasn't necessarily about masculinity, but
768
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:26.880
just the explosion of the athletic black quarterback post Michael Vick,
769
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:29.679
all of a sudden, everybody wanted one. Didn't nobody want
770
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:31.719
one before that, But then they was like, wow, I mean,
771
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:33.320
did you see just the kind of things you could
772
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:35.559
do if we could just get one that isn't into
773
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.400
the dog fighting or whatever and all the other stuff
774
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:39.400
that we might be able.
775
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:40.360
To control a little better.
776
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:45.039
Right, But the shift we saw because that performance, that
777
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:48.440
the level of performance. And then now we're seeing all
778
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:50.760
of these black quarterbacks that are thinking they're just not
779
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.280
running fast. They don't just have laser arms, they have
780
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.480
those two, but they think and they do all of
781
00:42:57.519 --> 00:42:59.719
the things, they lead all of that stuff, but they're
782
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.960
still scrutinized at a level that we don't see with
783
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:06.239
white quarterbacks. It's really interesting, and I love the fact
784
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.679
that I've been going back and really looking at that
785
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:12.880
beyond the draft episode that we did last May, because
786
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:15.679
I've started working on editing the video so we could
787
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.760
put that out there for our listeners and viewers, and
788
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:21.239
thinking about some of the things that we talked about
789
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:24.840
in that context last year. But there were segments of
790
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:27.440
it where we were focused really on that level of
791
00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.000
scrutiny for us versus them. You know that that thing
792
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:33.639
is still very true. We've got to be twice as good,
793
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:37.079
but they want us to remain half as expressive when
794
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:41.199
white athletes. Yeah, right, that is acceptable, But when we
795
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:45.079
do that decorum decorum. We need some decorum, right.
796
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.519
Josh Allen after Buffalo lost, had a full on cry
797
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.400
and I thought that was great, But we didn't see
798
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:54.719
I didn't see the type of critique of him that
799
00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:57.559
I've seen of other other athletes. And there's one other
800
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.199
aspect to this. Keep going back to sports. It tells
801
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.119
so much about us, but it's beyond that thinking about
802
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:10.559
it from thinking about gender versus like masculinity and femininity.
803
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:15.199
So I'm thinking about w NBA players.
804
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:18.960
For example, and the types of critiques that they get
805
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:24.760
just for simply being basketball players that somehow they are
806
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:29.079
hyper masculine because they play basketball. There are women who
807
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:33.400
play basketball. It's always been this weird thing that again,
808
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.800
this whole question of masculinity, what does it mean?
809
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:38.079
Like who does it apply to?
810
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:41.719
And one of the ways, like even beyond basketball and sports,
811
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:46.280
one of the most ridiculous and disgusting ways I've seen
812
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:48.360
it is the way that some of them have talked
813
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:51.719
about some black women. And I can think about Michelle
814
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.679
Obama in particular, and ways that are really really troubling
815
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:59.880
stuff that you'll see and some of the wageous Serena
816
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:05.480
Williams and like all these black women right to me,
817
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.440
are just women. Athletes are just brilliant women that as
818
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:13.159
a way to tear them down, they get sort of
819
00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:16.880
categorized as masculine, like, is what is that about?
820
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:17.320
Right?
821
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:20.639
Well, if nothing, nothing else has worked, so we got
822
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:23.639
to try that too, you know, because it's ultimately what
823
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:26.719
you're saying, it's about the tearing down, it's about the threat,
824
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:29.000
it's about the power that they possessed, that.
825
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.599
Internal power, that internal strength.
826
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:36.039
That shines through, and so nothing else, nothing else seems
827
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.960
to work, So we got to throw that at it too,
828
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.760
to try and slow them down, to try and break
829
00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:46.800
them down. Interesting you mentioned the w NBA because there
830
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.000
are a lot of people who now will open they say,
831
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.840
right now, the w NBA is far more physical than
832
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.639
the NBA is, And I think sometimes it's a little
833
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:55.199
too physical.
834
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:58.199
It's a little but yeah, the reps don't have control
835
00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.039
of the game like.
836
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:00.679
They sometimes they don't have control.
837
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.000
Sometimes I think it's being allowed because it's creates a
838
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:07.679
little more sensational little so I think I think with
839
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.199
the league right now trying to raise, trying to justify
840
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:13.159
paying more.
841
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.119
And doing this and that, well, some of that I
842
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:21.159
go into going on what I've heard black female doctors
843
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:24.840
tell me, and it's that there's also this notion that
844
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:29.320
somehow black women don't experience pain like others do.
845
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.519
So there's that there's that old that's that.
846
00:46:33.079 --> 00:46:37.639
Old leftover justification for mistreating people that's been around for.
847
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:42.679
So long, right, right, So it's it's all I'm sorry,
848
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:44.760
I'm sorry, just real quick.
849
00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:47.039
That also goes to that to the w n b
850
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:49.760
A thing to keep that division between the black and
851
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:53.440
the white players, and the every time Caitlyn got filed, right,
852
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.920
it was the biggest, most ridiculous, evil thing.
853
00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:59.239
They're trying to kill her and fast.
854
00:46:59.280 --> 00:46:59.960
He's a hawk eye.
855
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:01.159
Yeah, I know, I know.
856
00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:04.440
I'm a Caitlin fan too. I'm a fan of her game.
857
00:47:04.840 --> 00:47:07.639
Her maggots kind of ruined it for a while there
858
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.280
because they don't love the game. They didn't care about
859
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:12.519
the game, and they just came in and just kind
860
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:15.760
of messed things up. But what we did was she
861
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.199
was she was taking the same knocks that everybody else
862
00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:21.239
was taking because because the w n b A is
863
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:24.119
just almost hockey like in the way, they let them
864
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:27.440
get at it sometimes. But to your point, Greg, and
865
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:29.679
I apologize for cutting you off there. John was just
866
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.239
this notion that every time something happened to her for
867
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:34.599
a while, it was getting blown way out of proportion.
868
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.039
When everybody was getting stolen like back in the in
869
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.039
the nineties NBA, when you watched some of them w
870
00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:43.960
NBA games, it's like whoa. And when the refs didn't
871
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:47.039
get control of it, these ladies was taking it matters
872
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.760
into their own hands, and everybody was getting clocked and
873
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.159
it's like, hey, if you're not gonna call this file
874
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.920
and you're gonna let her clock me like that, I'm
875
00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:58.280
clocking her too. And they were getting it was getting
876
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.679
crazy at the times. I'm sorry, we were about to
877
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:01.519
say something.
878
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:01.639
No, no, no.
879
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.440
I think as we're having the conversation, if we if
880
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:06.800
we look at this, we said, is that a lot
881
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:11.079
of this is based on societal expectation, and if we
882
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:15.440
go even deeper, it's it's who's controlling those expectations. Who
883
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.519
is it that's bringing the definitions out? You see what
884
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:21.039
I'm saying, And you said it rich that it's a
885
00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.519
matter of if it fits the narrative that they want
886
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:28.440
you to have. So it's going to come into question masculinity.
887
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.320
Are you mad enough? To take care of this that
888
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:34.320
or the other, or you too man man like that
889
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.760
it's taken away from your feminine ability and who you're
890
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.679
supposed to be as it relates to what they want
891
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.400
you to be. Type deal. So I think that as
892
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:49.079
we continue to just have that conversation about masculinity femininity,
893
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:52.760
it's a matter of what you feel comfortable with. I
894
00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.440
think it's a matter of how you're able to be
895
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:59.239
adaptable to whatever that need is. So I say that
896
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:02.079
to say, I need to be able to be vulnerable
897
00:49:02.199 --> 00:49:04.960
when I'm taking care of a patient that's not feeling well.
898
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.239
I can't be sto like, I can't be hard, I
899
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.400
can't be like, suck it up, you're gonna be all right.
900
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:10.119
Type deal.
901
00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:13.400
I got to show a caring side, a softer side
902
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:15.320
in order to be able to help them through what
903
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:18.440
they're going through. But then if somebody's threatening to my
904
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:22.599
family or somebody that I care closely about, well, that's
905
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:24.320
a side of me that you're going to see step
906
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:26.599
up that you may not see as you see me
907
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:28.519
trying to take care of a patient that may be
908
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.920
going through some health or illness type deal. So that
909
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:35.880
masculinity is still there, it's just a matter of what
910
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:38.760
aspect of it is being presented at that time. And
911
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.360
I think again, unfortunately we've got those that are trying
912
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:47.039
to define it for everyone. But in essence, that's a
913
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:49.440
narrative that's trying to keep people down.
914
00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:55.320
In my opinion, I agree that I see it as
915
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:59.639
an attempt at control empower over people. When you ca
916
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:02.840
and you get to pigeonhole people as a certain way,
917
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.519
that means you get to dismiss them, what they're going
918
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.199
to do and how they are expected to behave. But
919
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:12.239
it's really really oppressive, and we have systems in place
920
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:18.360
that enforced that oppression, and I think we as a
921
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:20.639
society have to do a better job, and I think
922
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.800
us as black men have a particular role to play.
923
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.880
It's sort of dismantling that kind of.
924
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.079
Oppression and those kinds of systems that at the end
925
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:34.119
of the day are harmful to people and the broader society.
926
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:34.440
You know.
927
00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:40.119
I agree, Yeah, we're dealing with this reality of this
928
00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:43.400
is twenty twenty, So got that full up there, that's
929
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.880
got all kinds of things convoluted. But it's really not
930
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:49.480
just that fool right, It's been this way moving this
931
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:53.960
way for quite some time, right, and so not We're
932
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:57.000
not gonna put it all on a single fol We're gonna.
933
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:57.840
Deal with the reality.
934
00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:01.920
Right, this hyper masculine conservative of white male archetype. Right,
935
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:03.880
For it to be an archetype, it's got to be
936
00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:05.639
a lot of them doing it, right. You can't just
937
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:08.159
have five or six people to have an archetype. It's
938
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:09.960
not often I get to use that word, so I'm
939
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:13.760
throwing it out there. So what we're saying is masculinity.
940
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.039
And that's not enough of you to do that, rich, well,
941
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:20.199
thank you brother. In this particular archetype, right, masculinity is
942
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:25.840
defined by certainty, volume, and dominance. Right, bigger, louder, and stronger,
943
00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:30.280
right kind of notion right, merit is is pretty much irrelevant.
944
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:35.039
Performance doesn't matter nearly as much as posturing, Right America.
945
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:35.519
Right.
946
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:38.320
I don't actually have to be good.
947
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.199
Yeah, I don't have to be good at anything or
948
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:41.039
do anything good.
949
00:51:41.079 --> 00:51:44.239
I just have to say I'm good. How do you know?
950
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:45.239
Because I said it?
951
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:46.280
And why? Just say it?
952
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:47.000
Because I am?
953
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:49.880
Why? And that's good enough? Right?
954
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:53.119
That seems to be good enough. And apparently it was
955
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.159
because it got that fool in there and that's pretty
956
00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:59.840
much all he's ever done. In reality, not masculine at all. Right,
957
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:02.559
I don't think you can be masculine on the diet
958
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:05.760
that consists mostly of McDonald's. I think we get back
959
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:08.000
to that ooey ouey, soft and chewi we were talking
960
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.039
about before. Write just one big old marshmallow puff, right, Yeah,
961
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:17.280
the most masculine of things. But seriously, we see that volatility.
962
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:22.199
It is it's because he's he's in charge. It's just
963
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:23.559
that as simple as that.
964
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.599
Well, I remember when John McCain. I remember when he
965
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:30.599
went after John McCain, and I've had all kinds of
966
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:34.880
policy differences with pad with the late John McCain. But
967
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.719
how in the world could anybody question his toughness?
968
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:42.559
Like, how is that possible?
969
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:46.800
This man was a pow for how many months, literally
970
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:49.320
couldn't move his arms like he wasn't.
971
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.800
A rich celebrity man. The world is flipped upside down
972
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:54.440
and on its side and twisted over twice after that.
973
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:59.559
But they literally got a deferments right to question that
974
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.320
person toughness.
975
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:04.639
Because he was out there telling people you're fired and
976
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:08.719
lying about his assets. But that's all it takes is
977
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:11.239
to be if you can be on TV long enough
978
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:16.920
that pervasive image everywhere is all it takes for some people.
979
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:19.360
And if it's enough of those people, boom, you gotta
980
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.800
know them. Right, Yeah, it doesn't have to make sense
981
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:24.440
for right, how many?
982
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:26.320
Well, this world we're.
983
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:29.519
Living in right now, right, the majority rules sets the rules,
984
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:33.360
and if the majority is all idiots, you get idiotic rules.
985
00:53:33.559 --> 00:53:36.840
We then, really, I don't even know if it's truly
986
00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:40.360
majority ruling. So I hear what you say, but I
987
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:43.079
think there's a lot of quietness and there's just some
988
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:46.360
people you have said they gonna rule and do what
989
00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:46.840
they do.
990
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:48.480
But yeah, but I get what you said.
991
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:51.920
In a broken system, we had enough we had in
992
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.760
a broken system, there were large enough numbers in enough
993
00:53:54.840 --> 00:54:00.519
places to end up with a jacked up result. But yeah, well,
994
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:03.360
I think this has been and he won all of
995
00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:04.400
those elections.
996
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:05.079
He did.
997
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:08.840
And when you look at the gender variation like it's
998
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:14.440
it's just a fascinating thing to examine. And this conversation
999
00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:17.679
is great, and I think it could go continue to go,
1000
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:21.880
and I'd love to have some of our viewer slash
1001
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:26.840
listeners way in. Obviously we can't get to every aspect
1002
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:31.639
of the conversation, but hopefully it inspires you all to
1003
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:35.440
engage with us and engage with each other about what
1004
00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:39.800
I think is a conversation, even if it's not articulated
1005
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:44.000
as a conversation, but it's being it's happening everywhere, and
1006
00:54:44.039 --> 00:54:48.280
so hopefully this will be part of moving the conversation forward.
1007
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:50.000
But one thing I keep.
1008
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:55.000
Coming back to is that if masculinity really was as
1009
00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:58.440
we say it is, or as society says it is,
1010
00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:02.719
it wouldn't need need all of the policing, right, it
1011
00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:08.920
wouldn't be threatened by expression. Right, it actually wouldn't collapse
1012
00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:11.679
under deep analysis.
1013
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:12.800
But it's so.
1014
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:18.639
Weak and questionable in its foundation that it needs enforcement
1015
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:23.159
by systems, by people, by those of power. So it's
1016
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:25.440
not as strong as it pretends to be, and so
1017
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:29.719
I think our job is to resist it and try
1018
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:30.800
to build something better.
1019
00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:34.880
I think we end up getting to that individual, right,
1020
00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:38.119
is where we could be norms matter less when we
1021
00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:41.199
are focused more on and there. I mean, there are
1022
00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:44.559
some places in spaces where the individual should be less
1023
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:47.480
important than the community or the group, but when we're
1024
00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:50.920
talking about expression, that's one of those places where the
1025
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:54.559
individual should kind of rain pairamount. That's in a place
1026
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:57.440
where we've got a kind of universal acceptance, though, and
1027
00:55:57.559 --> 00:55:59.679
I think we're so far from that because there's so
1028
00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:02.880
much focus on control, and then there are so many
1029
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:05.639
that are willing to be controlled or who or are
1030
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:10.039
willing to comply, are willing to fall in line and say, Okay,
1031
00:56:10.519 --> 00:56:14.079
I'll give up that personal expression. I know I've done
1032
00:56:14.119 --> 00:56:16.480
that at different points in my life, and just out
1033
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:18.159
of necessity, career necessity.
1034
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:18.440
Right.
1035
00:56:18.760 --> 00:56:21.119
I remember when we were talking with the nephews and
1036
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:23.360
I talked about how at that time, when I still
1037
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.079
had here, I would have I would have been able
1038
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.159
to wear my hair like so many brothers do now
1039
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:31.440
when I was going to court. That would have been
1040
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:35.639
dope looking back on it. But that conformity and things
1041
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:39.760
of that nature that limit us, sometimes by choice, sometimes
1042
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:40.920
by by pressure.
1043
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.480
Yeah, and just remember again to our audience, we thank you.
1044
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:50.199
This was not us trying to decide for you what
1045
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:54.599
masculinity is. This was there to bring out the conversation
1046
00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:00.000
and hopes of encouraging us and others to just recognize
1047
00:57:00.199 --> 00:57:03.880
is that masculinity has a broad definition to it.
1048
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.599
We are there to try.
1049
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.280
To be open to what that looks like and to
1050
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:11.679
be able to feel free in that expression.
1051
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:12.400
Of that as well.
1052
00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:17.199
So again, think about this, who taught you what it
1053
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:21.000
means to be masculine and do you still conform to
1054
00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:24.599
that today? And does that pass down to those that
1055
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:27.559
are younger than you, so your children or even your
1056
00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:31.960
grandchildren as to how that same perception falls. We would
1057
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.519
love to hear your comments. Please like, share, and just
1058
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:39.239
let us know what your thoughts are as relates to this.
1059
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:41.800
We appreciate you all, and I think this was again
1060
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:45.280
hopefully a great episode, great conversation and just there to
1061
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:47.480
open your eyes and your hearts and your minds as
1062
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:50.360
to just different concepts that are going on at this time.
1063
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:54.199
That's right, Well, thank you all for checking us out.
1064
00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:58.400
Appreciate my brothers as always for an inspiring conversation that
1065
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.239
could go so many different ways. But we'll continue talking
1066
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:04.079
and we'll keep bringing up the subjects.
1067
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:06.679
Take care of everybody, peace,