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you kind of get access to hidden knowledge
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or experiences that you don't remember you had
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as your boy experiences those things
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you kind of get to experience them through him
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yeah I
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I think you know
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to your point there there's just something
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I mean being able to empathize with another person
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is just enormously helpful
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and it is just a fact that uh
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certain experiences are kind of uh
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unique to your sex or your gender and
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and certain experiences like
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when you can have some guidance from someone
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who knows what that is like
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there's going to be something about that
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that that is enormously helpful to you
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welcome back to Raising Men
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I'm your host Shawn Dawson
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now we often talk on this show
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about the missing roadmap from modern manhood
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the fact that our sons are growing up in a world
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that sends them loud often contradictory
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messages about what it means to be a man
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but today's guest has maybe
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a slightly different point of view
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which I'm really eager to get into
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Jordan Ritter Con
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is a senior staff writer at the Ringer
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and he's an acclaimed author
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known for his deep immersion journalism
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for his latest book American men
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Jordan spent five years
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almost living alongside four different
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very different men
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capturing the searing intimacy of their lives
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their failures and their triumphs
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now he kind of
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argues that these men have gotten the message
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of what it means to be a man
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loud and clear but the difficulty arises
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when they're confronted with the ways that
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they don't feel like they're living up to the ideal
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that they're holding in their own heads
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and the result
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this book is I think
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a result a
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a result of genuine intimate storytelling
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and like most stories it gets to the truth
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in a way that data and statistics can't
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Jordan thank you so much for joining us
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and welcome to Raising Men
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thank you so much for having me
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I'm I'm so thrilled to be here Sean
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so now
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how did you decide to embark on this journey
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this was five years ago and I
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I mean I think five years ago
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the vision of you know
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doing something on masculinity was
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most people if you told that to
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they would think that
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you're on a different journey than
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you actually ended up on
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so how did you decide to do this and
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and how do you feel about it
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yeah um
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so you know I
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I have always had going back to
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you know when I was a kid
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always had very close relationships with other boys and
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and with men in in my adulthood um
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the kind of friendships that we're often told that
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boys and men don't have um
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or or can't
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can't develop friendships that are based on
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you know real trust and intimacy
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really sharing things vulnerably
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um and uh
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and you know
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that that kind of carried over into my journalism
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once I became a journalist
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I kind of focused on um
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like you said kind of like immersive storytelling
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like really digging deep into
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into people's lives and
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you know a lot of my background is in sports
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and so if you're in sports journalism
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you spend a lot of time talking to men
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and and in the kind of journalism that I've done
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it's a lot of time talking to men
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about things that we're so often told
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that men don't really want to share
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talking with them about their insecurities
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talking with them about their failures
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talking with them about you know
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traumas
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and and so
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you know a few years ago
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and at this point um
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it's been
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it's now been six years since I really kind of
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embarked on on beginning this book uh
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just cause some some
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time has passed since I finished it now um
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I was I was just thinking like
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there's starting to be these conversations around
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around men about you'd see these headlines about
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like
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the first rumblings of headlines about male loneliness
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and in kind of the the late 20
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like 2018 1920 um
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you'd see the first rumblings of headlines about men
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kind of sometimes not carrying their emotional weight
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I I guess in
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in relationships you start hearing like
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terms like emotional labor start
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start kind of being introduced into the
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the way that we talk culturally
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um
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you start to hear things about men's unwillingness to
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um you know
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seek professional help when
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when they're going through things um and
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and to uh
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you know to open
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open up let people into their lives
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and I just had the thought of like
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you know I've spent a lot of my personal life
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and now a lot of my professional life
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talking to men about these very things
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um I
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I feel like I've had experiences
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that have LED me to think that men are willing to
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open up are willing to kind of let people in
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do want to um
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kind of do some of this work that we're so often told
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that they don't and so I
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I thought like
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if I could cast a wide net
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find a few guys
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whose stories are so different from one another
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but who could add up to something kind of
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a larger picture um
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outside of just their individual stories that I could
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I could have something I I
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I could have a book that people might be really
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interested in and
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and drawn to um
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certainly when when I started this process
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the conversation around this stuff was very different
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than than it is now
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the conversation has gotten louder and louder
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and louder over the course of those 5
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6 years
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but
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I felt even back then
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like there would be a hunger for something like this
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yeah I think you're 100% right
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and I think you I think you've proven um
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your point there I
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one of the things that really struck me in
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in hearing
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um you talk about this
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is that there is this conception that men
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are not willing to talk about their feelings
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and you started this endeavor with just
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totally rejecting that
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and when I heard you talking about that it
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it occurred to me I really I
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I realized yeah
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the deal isn't that men
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don't want to open up and talk about that stuff they're
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and and
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nor is it the case
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that they're not capable of talking about it
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it's that they do not have safe spaces
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in which it's possible to talk about it
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without being judged
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without having maybe serious social repercussions
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or that sort of thing what do you think about yeah
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give me a response to that
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yeah um
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you know I
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I do think I think that the real key is
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you a couple things
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we um
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need to feel like the
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the other person is genuinely curious um
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need to feel like the other person really wants to know
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um and
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and so that often means
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we need to be asked things pretty directly
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I mean we
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we need to be given like
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kind of a permission structure for
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for opening up because we are
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we do kind of inherit these messages um
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that that's showing um
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any any kind of vulnerability or openness is
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is showing weakness um
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and and
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you know to
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to be honest with you we
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our culture
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often associates any sense of weakness with femininity
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and our culture as men we
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we are
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we learn these really lessons that kind of harm us all
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that that teach us to kind of
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reject femininity from the time we're very
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very young
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you know but I
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I think that we need to to really be invited in to
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to to these kind of conversations and
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and be given
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given that kind of direct permission to open up
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but then also I do think we need a sense that and
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and this is what I could offer to these guys um
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like you said that there's a fear of being judged um
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and and what I could offer to
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to these guys who I write about in this book is like
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I'm I really wanna know
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I'm gonna ask you these very direct questions
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I wanna know the answers
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and they would show me a little bit
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and I don't judge them
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then they show me a little bit more
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and I don't judge them
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and then they show me a lot more and um
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and I I do think that there is often this fear that
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if anyone really sees me uh
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they will think less of me
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if anyone really sees me that they
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they will judge me if it is another
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another man they might
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you know find me to be weak or lacking in some way um
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if it is if it is a woman they
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there might be parts of my experience
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that they can't fully relate to
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or understand that they find to be um
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you know either weak or lacking similarly or
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or just bad um
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you know like that
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like some some part of me is
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is is not good um and
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and I I think that's a fear that
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that we all have none of us want to be seen by
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especially by people that we care about um
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as any of those things
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and so we need to be able to feel like um
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you know the person just really
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really wants to know and
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and is going to take what we say
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and kind of
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integrate it into the way that they view us that
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that is already kind of
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wanting the best for us and caring for us and
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not
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kind of change the way they view us in a way that is um
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you know that feels harmful and hurtful yeah
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you you
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you begin the story of of Jordan
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with this detailed
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breakdown of this obsession that he has
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while they're
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while he's driving across the country with his wife
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of the temperature of the car
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as they're driving through Yellow Joseph
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and so they're driving across country
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so that he can go to law school and
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and he's sitting there obsessing over
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the fact that the temperature of his car is
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like 30 degrees
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higher than it has been for the rest of the drive
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and he's worried that the car's gonna break down
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and then oh my gosh
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we don't have enough money to afford a new engine
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if that happens
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and what do I do when I can't let her drive
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because if she drives
282
00:09:52,216 --> 00:09:53,500
then she's gonna notice this stuff
283
00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:55,116
and then she's gonna realize
284
00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,533
that I'm not suited to be a protector or a provider and
285
00:09:58,533 --> 00:09:59,466
and all of this stuff
286
00:09:59,466 --> 00:10:03,216
and I think that that that experience meanwhile
287
00:10:03,216 --> 00:10:05,683
his wife is enjoying um
288
00:10:06,216 --> 00:10:07,333
you know the sights and
289
00:10:07,333 --> 00:10:09,616
and wanting to stop at every single possible thing
290
00:10:09,616 --> 00:10:10,666
this is the first time they're gonna
291
00:10:10,666 --> 00:10:11,383
it's the only time
292
00:10:11,383 --> 00:10:13,016
maybe they're gonna drive all the way across country
293
00:10:13,016 --> 00:10:14,733
and she's really enjoying the trip
294
00:10:14,733 --> 00:10:16,566
but he can't be present
295
00:10:17,183 --> 00:10:19,366
because he doesn't feel like he's
296
00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:21,333
a successful protector or provider
297
00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:23,900
and that little story that vignette
298
00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:24,933
which is the the
299
00:10:24,933 --> 00:10:26,183
how we get introduced to Jordan
300
00:10:26,183 --> 00:10:28,900
really resonated with me and I mean
301
00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,716
this is my experience in life too
302
00:10:30,733 --> 00:10:32,866
and I think it will resonate
303
00:10:32,866 --> 00:10:35,583
I think it resonates with most men as well
304
00:10:35,583 --> 00:10:37,866
and I think that that really illustrates what
305
00:10:37,866 --> 00:10:40,933
what I think that you're trying to say about
306
00:10:40,933 --> 00:10:42,466
the central theme of the book that
307
00:10:42,466 --> 00:10:44,900
that there's this gap between
308
00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:46,866
this ideal we hold in our heads about what
309
00:10:46,866 --> 00:10:49,416
what true masculinity is whatever
310
00:10:49,416 --> 00:10:49,616
what
311
00:10:49,616 --> 00:10:52,100
whatever we've absorbed from the culture about that and
312
00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:55,800
and and then there's a gap between what I am
313
00:10:56,416 --> 00:11:00,333
and that gap can be
314
00:11:00,333 --> 00:11:02,100
can really grow into something unhealthy
315
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:03,983
if we're not honest about it
316
00:11:03,983 --> 00:11:06,183
and if we're not willing to let people inspect it
317
00:11:06,183 --> 00:11:11,083
or we're not able to let people see it in a safe way
318
00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,300
it can really grow into something unhealthy and
319
00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,933
and that's kind of the nature of a lot what
320
00:11:15,933 --> 00:11:18,783
what what I've been calling a masculinity crisis
321
00:11:18,783 --> 00:11:19,783
but I think that's I
322
00:11:19,783 --> 00:11:23,033
I think you're getting to really the root of it there
323
00:11:24,066 --> 00:11:24,933
yeah so
324
00:11:24,933 --> 00:11:25,416
you know that
325
00:11:25,416 --> 00:11:26,816
that opening um
326
00:11:26,816 --> 00:11:28,066
with uh Joseph
327
00:11:28,066 --> 00:11:29,133
um it's Joseph
328
00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:30,016
I'm so sorry yes
329
00:11:30,016 --> 00:11:30,383
no no
330
00:11:30,383 --> 00:11:30,983
no quite alright
331
00:11:30,983 --> 00:11:31,866
quite alright um
332
00:11:31,866 --> 00:11:33,866
but I'm so glad you brought it up cause um
333
00:11:33,866 --> 00:11:34,266
you know that that's
334
00:11:34,266 --> 00:11:36,333
that's a scene that I actually haven't really
335
00:11:36,333 --> 00:11:38,100
had the chance to talk much about yet
336
00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:39,800
um and uh
337
00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:40,866
and it's a
338
00:11:40,866 --> 00:11:43,266
scene that it's one of my favorite scenes in the book
339
00:11:43,266 --> 00:11:45,183
um and like you said
340
00:11:45,183 --> 00:11:48,183
he's should be having the time of his life
341
00:11:48,183 --> 00:11:49,733
he and his wife are on this incredible
342
00:11:49,733 --> 00:11:51,500
cross country road trip they're
343
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,216
they're driving through Yellowstone
344
00:11:53,216 --> 00:11:54,316
they're seeing just
345
00:11:54,366 --> 00:11:57,316
all the amazing beauty that this country has to offer
346
00:11:57,333 --> 00:11:59,183
his wife is having a wonderful time
347
00:11:59,183 --> 00:12:00,666
she's looking out the window
348
00:12:00,666 --> 00:12:01,466
she's she's like
349
00:12:01,466 --> 00:12:02,933
telling him to look at all the beautiful
350
00:12:02,933 --> 00:12:03,933
things that they're seeing
351
00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:04,933
she's um
352
00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:06,300
you know excited to see all the animals
353
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,716
they're gonna see at Yellowstone National Park
354
00:12:08,783 --> 00:12:12,733
and he is spiraling inside
355
00:12:12,733 --> 00:12:14,500
because there's just a light
356
00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,833
rattle in the engine of his car
357
00:12:16,866 --> 00:12:18,516
and um
358
00:12:18,666 --> 00:12:19,816
as you know I think
359
00:12:19,816 --> 00:12:22,700
a lot of people have had experiences similar to this
360
00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:22,983
where like
361
00:12:22,983 --> 00:12:25,216
you know there's something going on with your car
362
00:12:25,216 --> 00:12:28,333
or maybe it's some like sound in your house that
363
00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:30,900
you know like it's not supposed to sound like that
364
00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,683
and you quickly go to
365
00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,700
what is the worst case scenario here
366
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,100
and so he goes from you know
367
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:38,333
the engine's running a little hot
368
00:12:38,333 --> 00:12:40,333
there's a little bit of a rattle um
369
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:42,266
to this sense of like
370
00:12:42,266 --> 00:12:44,133
we're going to be stranded and alone
371
00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:47,716
and what's underneath all of this is um
372
00:12:47,816 --> 00:12:50,183
she cannot know what is happening because if she knows
373
00:12:50,183 --> 00:12:51,133
then she will know the truth
374
00:12:51,133 --> 00:12:53,266
and the truth is I am insufficient
375
00:12:53,266 --> 00:12:56,266
I cannot keep her safe she needs someone who can
376
00:12:56,266 --> 00:12:57,066
keep her safe
377
00:12:57,066 --> 00:12:59,700
and I am not the man who is up to that job
378
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:02,466
and so that fear I think
379
00:13:02,466 --> 00:13:04,033
is something that
380
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,500
so many of us experience at some point in time
381
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:07,983
um the
382
00:13:07,983 --> 00:13:11,466
this fear that if we are really seen
383
00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:13,400
if we are really understood
384
00:13:13,583 --> 00:13:15,016
then people will know the truth
385
00:13:15,016 --> 00:13:17,533
and the truth is that we are deficient in some way
386
00:13:17,533 --> 00:13:20,316
and so he's he's going through that all the while
387
00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:21,733
um you know
388
00:13:21,733 --> 00:13:23,333
again she's having an amazing time he
389
00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:23,533
and
390
00:13:23,533 --> 00:13:26,533
he is missing out on having an amazing time with her
391
00:13:26,533 --> 00:13:29,133
because he is so fixated on his
392
00:13:29,133 --> 00:13:30,800
like image of his own you know
393
00:13:30,933 --> 00:13:33,566
uh this evidence of his own kind of inadequacy
394
00:13:34,616 --> 00:13:35,500
and um
395
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:36,216
and then yeah like
396
00:13:36,216 --> 00:13:36,900
like you said to
397
00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,766
to the point of kind of this
398
00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:39,583
you know the
399
00:13:39,583 --> 00:13:42,933
the the book does not try to convince you of many ideas
400
00:13:42,933 --> 00:13:46,133
it does not try to kind of um
401
00:13:46,133 --> 00:13:48,100
hit you over the head with kind of a
402
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:49,933
a grand argument about kind of
403
00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:51,383
the state of masculinity in this country
404
00:13:51,383 --> 00:13:53,333
I'm much more interested in just like
405
00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,466
really intimately telling these four stories
406
00:13:55,466 --> 00:13:57,216
and letting the reader come away with
407
00:13:57,216 --> 00:13:58,800
whatever it is that they come away with
408
00:13:58,983 --> 00:14:01,366
but the one kind of
409
00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:04,016
idea that does really link these four
410
00:14:04,016 --> 00:14:06,533
and that I do think we all experience is
411
00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:09,333
is the sense of from the time we are so young
412
00:14:09,333 --> 00:14:12,266
we are inheriting an idea of what
413
00:14:12,266 --> 00:14:14,933
it means to be a man and what kind of
414
00:14:14,933 --> 00:14:18,583
an ideal version of a man is supposed to look like
415
00:14:18,583 --> 00:14:21,200
and at some point along the way
416
00:14:21,416 --> 00:14:25,016
we inevitably fail to live up to that
417
00:14:25,016 --> 00:14:27,383
um you can be the five year old on the playground
418
00:14:27,383 --> 00:14:30,066
who's getting picked on and who immediately knows
419
00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:31,683
I'm not like the other boys
420
00:14:31,733 --> 00:14:32,300
um and
421
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:34,616
and it has that lesson ingrained in you for
422
00:14:34,616 --> 00:14:36,166
for such a long young age
423
00:14:36,216 --> 00:14:39,216
or you can be someone who typifies every single ideal
424
00:14:39,216 --> 00:14:40,466
who um
425
00:14:40,466 --> 00:14:42,533
you know is the star athlete who is rich
426
00:14:42,533 --> 00:14:44,783
who is successful who um is
427
00:14:44,783 --> 00:14:46,216
is attractive who
428
00:14:46,216 --> 00:14:47,166
who has everything
429
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,400
but inevitably at some point in your life
430
00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:51,266
your circumstances are going to shift
431
00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:53,383
in a way where you are no longer
432
00:14:53,383 --> 00:14:54,666
kind of living up to that
433
00:14:54,666 --> 00:14:54,933
or
434
00:14:54,933 --> 00:14:57,616
you just realize that you've been chasing the standard
435
00:14:57,616 --> 00:14:59,300
and the standard only gets higher and higher
436
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:00,583
and higher the higher you go
437
00:15:00,583 --> 00:15:02,300
and you can never quite reach it
438
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:04,733
and so ultimately I think
439
00:15:04,733 --> 00:15:06,816
what kind of defines our relationship to masculinity
440
00:15:06,816 --> 00:15:10,333
is how we kind of navigate that failure
441
00:15:10,333 --> 00:15:12,700
I I think that there's a lot of messaging right now
442
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,200
that tells young men um
443
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:17,416
just if you just work harder
444
00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:19,383
if you just keep pressing forward
445
00:15:19,383 --> 00:15:20,933
if you just work on your body
446
00:15:20,933 --> 00:15:22,333
if you just work on your career
447
00:15:22,333 --> 00:15:24,200
if you just work on your charisma
448
00:15:24,383 --> 00:15:26,300
then you will bridge that gap
449
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,066
and your deficiencies will
450
00:15:29,066 --> 00:15:30,233
will be gone and you know
451
00:15:30,666 --> 00:15:32,466
I I think working on yourself in those ways is
452
00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:33,416
is wonderful you know
453
00:15:33,416 --> 00:15:34,733
I I try to do that all the time but I
454
00:15:35,216 --> 00:15:39,483
I do think that seeing that as kind of a path to
455
00:15:39,616 --> 00:15:41,700
you know it's a path to like
456
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,533
trying to bridge something that cannot
457
00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:44,866
really ever be bridged
458
00:15:44,866 --> 00:15:47,700
because that standard is always gonna be out of reach
459
00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:50,216
like anorexia exactly yes
460
00:15:50,216 --> 00:15:53,600
100% I haven't heard that comparison but um
461
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:55,616
that makes so much sense and
462
00:15:55,616 --> 00:15:56,416
and the
463
00:15:57,183 --> 00:15:57,666
both kind of
464
00:15:57,666 --> 00:15:59,100
the ideas that fuel anorexia
465
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:00,383
and the ideals that fuel
466
00:16:00,383 --> 00:16:02,600
a lot of what we're talking about um
467
00:16:02,666 --> 00:16:04,900
are just so prevalent online and and
468
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,316
and so easy for young people to access
469
00:16:07,466 --> 00:16:09,266
and it can really distort
470
00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,183
kind of your sense of yourself um
471
00:16:11,183 --> 00:16:12,216
basically with with this book
472
00:16:12,216 --> 00:16:13,016
what I wanted to do was
473
00:16:13,016 --> 00:16:14,700
kind of explore the ways that these guys
474
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,600
who are who are so different from one another
475
00:16:16,733 --> 00:16:19,016
um try to navigate that because I
476
00:16:19,016 --> 00:16:21,200
I think it is something that we will all
477
00:16:21,283 --> 00:16:23,333
at one point or another have to
478
00:16:23,333 --> 00:16:24,866
have to navigate ourselves all
479
00:16:24,866 --> 00:16:25,700
most of us have
480
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:28,466
at some point already had to navigate it ourselves even
481
00:16:28,466 --> 00:16:30,100
even if we haven't really been conscious of it
482
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:31,633
it's just been something that we're
483
00:16:31,783 --> 00:16:33,366
something that we're inevitably doing
484
00:16:33,616 --> 00:16:35,016
you know you
485
00:16:35,016 --> 00:16:36,916
you have a young son yourself
486
00:16:37,266 --> 00:16:39,700
who was born while you were doing this um
487
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,616
how has this experience shaped
488
00:16:42,616 --> 00:16:45,066
how you think about him
489
00:16:45,066 --> 00:16:47,533
and his relationship to masculinity
490
00:16:47,533 --> 00:16:49,866
has it changed the way you think about this stuff
491
00:16:49,866 --> 00:16:51,683
or enhanced it in any way
492
00:16:51,983 --> 00:16:54,200
yeah you know um
493
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,416
so he's almost 3 years old um
494
00:16:56,416 --> 00:16:58,816
and so it's he's still
495
00:16:58,816 --> 00:17:00,533
he's still so young um
496
00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:04,633
and he's still in the very early stages of kind of
497
00:17:05,016 --> 00:17:07,616
learning some of these some of these lessons
498
00:17:07,616 --> 00:17:09,983
learning some of the ways in which he will experience
499
00:17:09,983 --> 00:17:11,600
certain pressures um
500
00:17:11,866 --> 00:17:13,716
as he as he grows older
501
00:17:14,983 --> 00:17:17,383
I will say that you know
502
00:17:17,383 --> 00:17:18,500
when he was born and again
503
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,266
he was born I was about halfway through this book um
504
00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:22,700
we did not know um
505
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,916
the sex until until the moment he was born and um
506
00:17:27,166 --> 00:17:28,300
you know the moment that the
507
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:29,616
the doctor said uh
508
00:17:29,616 --> 00:17:30,783
like he's here
509
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:32,416
I think the doctor's first words were
510
00:17:32,416 --> 00:17:34,066
he's so long uh
511
00:17:34,066 --> 00:17:36,283
cause he was very tall um
512
00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:37,583
and uh
513
00:17:37,583 --> 00:17:39,783
but hearing that word he um
514
00:17:39,783 --> 00:17:40,416
I you know
515
00:17:40,416 --> 00:17:41,933
felt this incredible like excitement
516
00:17:41,933 --> 00:17:44,383
pride but also a sense of weight
517
00:17:44,383 --> 00:17:46,983
like an immediate sense of weight um
518
00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,216
a weight that I can't really fully even like
519
00:17:49,216 --> 00:17:50,500
wrap my mind around or
520
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,500
or put much in the way of words to just yet
521
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:53,733
but like
522
00:17:53,733 --> 00:17:57,100
the sense of a particular kind of responsibility that
523
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:58,783
that I would have um
524
00:17:58,783 --> 00:18:00,900
and maybe I would it would have felt the exact same if
525
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,300
if if he um
526
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,533
you know if she had said she's so long um at
527
00:18:04,533 --> 00:18:06,633
at that moment but um
528
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,466
but I I did kind of feel that and
529
00:18:09,466 --> 00:18:10,183
and you know
530
00:18:10,183 --> 00:18:11,016
along the way it
531
00:18:11,016 --> 00:18:12,883
it has been um
532
00:18:13,733 --> 00:18:14,100
you know I
533
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,483
I think what what I found myself thinking is like
534
00:18:18,383 --> 00:18:20,383
I cannot fully
535
00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:22,100
shield him from
536
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,900
all of these pressures that we are talking about
537
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,066
like the these
538
00:18:25,066 --> 00:18:28,416
these pressures are going to be a part of his life
539
00:18:28,416 --> 00:18:31,083
um what I can do is make
540
00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:32,866
do everything I can to make kind of
541
00:18:32,866 --> 00:18:34,300
our relationship and
542
00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:36,700
and our home a place where he feels safe to be
543
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:38,700
whoever he is um
544
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,766
and where he feels kind of invited into um
545
00:18:42,866 --> 00:18:44,800
kind of the fullest version of himself
546
00:18:45,333 --> 00:18:47,033
um but uh
547
00:18:48,183 --> 00:18:50,100
you know he will inevitably be shaped by
548
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:51,100
by all of these kind of
549
00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:52,900
cultural expectations that we have
550
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,566
he will inevitably be shaped in some ways by like
551
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,133
the subconscious ways
552
00:18:57,133 --> 00:18:59,016
in which I've been impacted by all of this
553
00:18:59,016 --> 00:18:59,383
you know I'm
554
00:18:59,383 --> 00:19:02,500
I'm my own person who has tried to kind of
555
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,016
navigate that gap that that we are talking about and
556
00:19:05,016 --> 00:19:05,783
and you know
557
00:19:05,783 --> 00:19:08,133
as much as I try to do it in the healthiest way I can
558
00:19:08,133 --> 00:19:11,983
I know sometimes it's not always healthy and um
559
00:19:11,983 --> 00:19:12,416
you know the
560
00:19:12,416 --> 00:19:14,416
the ways in which I wrestle with my own kind of
561
00:19:14,416 --> 00:19:15,300
insecurities my
562
00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,100
my own kind of um
563
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,500
you know failures um
564
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:21,483
will will inevitably impact him in some way or another
565
00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:23,183
um and so
566
00:19:23,183 --> 00:19:24,333
uh yeah
567
00:19:24,333 --> 00:19:25,500
all of that to say like
568
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:26,616
these ideas are just kind of
569
00:19:26,616 --> 00:19:28,933
swimming in my mind all the time
570
00:19:28,933 --> 00:19:31,816
um and the only thing I know to do at this point
571
00:19:31,816 --> 00:19:32,466
and again like parenting a
572
00:19:33,616 --> 00:19:34,733
a two and a/2 year old is
573
00:19:34,733 --> 00:19:35,933
is very very different I
574
00:19:35,933 --> 00:19:37,333
I know from parenting a
575
00:19:37,333 --> 00:19:40,583
a 7 year old or a 10 year old or a 15 year old um
576
00:19:40,583 --> 00:19:42,400
but at this point it's just been about like
577
00:19:42,616 --> 00:19:44,300
wanting to make sure that he feels like
578
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,183
he can be fully himself um
579
00:19:46,183 --> 00:19:46,333
with with
580
00:19:46,333 --> 00:19:48,133
with me and with us in in
581
00:19:48,133 --> 00:19:49,033
in our home
582
00:19:49,933 --> 00:19:50,983
yeah for me I
583
00:19:50,983 --> 00:19:53,500
I had that I had a similar experience to you now
584
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:58,283
we did know the sex of our boy before he came out
585
00:19:58,333 --> 00:20:02,416
and our girl too but it
586
00:20:02,416 --> 00:20:04,133
that that weight that you're talking about
587
00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:07,083
is totally different and it's not
588
00:20:07,783 --> 00:20:09,100
it's different it's not like
589
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,116
it's there for the boy and not for the girl
590
00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:13,333
it is different and for the girl it's
591
00:20:13,333 --> 00:20:17,266
it's it's more about keeping her safe and and and
592
00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:19,366
and those sorts of things for the boy
593
00:20:19,416 --> 00:20:25,366
for me it was this experience that
594
00:20:25,983 --> 00:20:27,066
and actually I mean I
595
00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:28,816
I was able to form it a little bit better
596
00:20:28,816 --> 00:20:31,400
once he got older but it's that
597
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:37,800
masculinity is so much different now
598
00:20:37,983 --> 00:20:40,166
than it was when I was young
599
00:20:40,783 --> 00:20:43,066
my paradigm my operating system
600
00:20:43,066 --> 00:20:46,283
so to speak is not gonna work for him
601
00:20:46,816 --> 00:20:52,600
and it's my job to make sure that he has the skills
602
00:20:52,816 --> 00:20:57,183
and capabilities to make his way in the world
603
00:20:57,183 --> 00:21:00,233
and be an excellent man and
604
00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:03,816
if even if that's what I am
605
00:21:03,816 --> 00:21:05,816
what got me to where I am
606
00:21:05,816 --> 00:21:08,100
isn't gonna get him where he needs to be
607
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,016
and I need to be more intentional about it
608
00:21:10,016 --> 00:21:11,100
I need to figure it out
609
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,400
and I don't know the answer right now
610
00:21:13,983 --> 00:21:16,016
and the culture isn't gonna help me all
611
00:21:16,016 --> 00:21:18,500
all it it used to be the case that
612
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:22,333
that we had rights of passage and we had institutions
613
00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:24,133
we would be going to church and
614
00:21:24,133 --> 00:21:25,733
you know that would help in some way
615
00:21:25,733 --> 00:21:28,200
it would also hurt in a lot of ways and
616
00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,216
and that means there's a there's an opportunity there
617
00:21:31,216 --> 00:21:32,133
and there's a problem there
618
00:21:32,133 --> 00:21:34,916
the problem is that that those things are gone
619
00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:37,900
the opportunity is we get to remake them
620
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:40,983
in the form that we want them to be
621
00:21:40,983 --> 00:21:42,233
and that's great
622
00:21:42,766 --> 00:21:44,216
but it means you have to do it
623
00:21:44,216 --> 00:21:46,416
or else you're just getting nothing and
624
00:21:46,416 --> 00:21:48,116
and that was
625
00:21:48,533 --> 00:21:52,700
that is how I vocalized the weight that you described
626
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,466
that I felt when my son was born
627
00:21:54,466 --> 00:21:56,266
that's what I felt and I
628
00:21:56,266 --> 00:21:58,733
I wasn't able to put words to it for years
629
00:21:58,733 --> 00:21:59,383
and years and years
630
00:21:59,383 --> 00:22:01,166
but that's how I put words to it now
631
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:02,500
yeah that
632
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,216
that's such a great um yeah
633
00:22:05,216 --> 00:22:05,383
I I
634
00:22:05,383 --> 00:22:06,933
I I really appreciate you
635
00:22:06,933 --> 00:22:08,266
you sharing all of that cause like I
636
00:22:08,266 --> 00:22:10,716
I think that um
637
00:22:12,016 --> 00:22:12,816
like you said I
638
00:22:12,816 --> 00:22:14,100
I think you know what
639
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:15,816
one of the things that comes up a lot in
640
00:22:15,816 --> 00:22:18,183
in this book is how men respond to certain structures
641
00:22:18,183 --> 00:22:19,783
how we respond to like
642
00:22:19,783 --> 00:22:21,783
clear sets of expectations and
643
00:22:21,783 --> 00:22:24,483
and being invited into something that um
644
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:25,066
you know where
645
00:22:25,066 --> 00:22:26,733
where there's kind of a clear purpose and we
646
00:22:26,733 --> 00:22:28,183
we understand what it is
647
00:22:28,183 --> 00:22:31,766
we understand why we're doing it and um
648
00:22:32,866 --> 00:22:33,183
you know
649
00:22:33,183 --> 00:22:35,133
what you mentioned about kind of rites of passage or
650
00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:38,083
like structures that kind of give uh
651
00:22:38,783 --> 00:22:39,933
you know serve as like
652
00:22:39,933 --> 00:22:41,333
kind of entry points into
653
00:22:41,333 --> 00:22:43,183
into a next phase of life that
654
00:22:43,183 --> 00:22:44,783
that serve as like kind of um
655
00:22:44,783 --> 00:22:46,733
helping you make that transition in
656
00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:48,666
in adolescence from being someone who
657
00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:49,900
who is um
658
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,333
you've seen largely as a boy into
659
00:22:51,333 --> 00:22:52,666
to being someone who who is
660
00:22:52,666 --> 00:22:55,383
who's growing into a man um I
661
00:22:55,383 --> 00:22:58,133
I think that like uh you're
662
00:22:58,133 --> 00:22:58,700
you're right
663
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,300
that our culture is kind of lacking a lot of those
664
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:01,666
um I
665
00:23:01,666 --> 00:23:03,533
I'm not entirely sure how to
666
00:23:03,533 --> 00:23:04,783
how to kind of reconstitute some
667
00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:05,466
some of them but I
668
00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,866
I do think that they I do think that they matter
669
00:23:08,866 --> 00:23:12,533
cause I I think especially that phase of life
670
00:23:12,533 --> 00:23:13,383
I mean um
671
00:23:13,383 --> 00:23:15,433
at adolescence I I try to
672
00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:17,583
you know I think it can be hard
673
00:23:17,583 --> 00:23:18,866
sometimes for grown men
674
00:23:18,866 --> 00:23:21,533
to remember what it is like to be a teenage boy
675
00:23:21,533 --> 00:23:23,466
um and I
676
00:23:23,466 --> 00:23:24,783
I have hard
677
00:23:24,783 --> 00:23:28,033
a hard time kind of remembering what it was like
678
00:23:28,066 --> 00:23:28,733
um and I
679
00:23:28,733 --> 00:23:31,066
I found myself thinking um
680
00:23:31,066 --> 00:23:33,516
trying to really sink back into
681
00:23:33,616 --> 00:23:35,016
into that experience and
682
00:23:35,016 --> 00:23:36,583
and I think like you know
683
00:23:36,583 --> 00:23:38,916
when I was a teenager um
684
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:40,033
you know I'm
685
00:23:40,033 --> 00:23:41,733
I'm very I'm really tall
686
00:23:41,733 --> 00:23:43,066
I'm I'm 6 5 um
687
00:23:43,066 --> 00:23:45,016
so I'm me too like always OK OK
688
00:23:45,016 --> 00:23:45,733
yeah so like
689
00:23:45,733 --> 00:23:48,216
it's a particular kind of experience when you're
690
00:23:48,216 --> 00:23:50,066
when you are in a body like that
691
00:23:50,066 --> 00:23:52,133
that's kind of looming over everyone else
692
00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:54,100
and I was clumsy as a result yeah
693
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:55,900
having grown so fast and yeah
694
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:56,816
yeah my
695
00:23:56,816 --> 00:23:58,700
my boy experiences the same thing
696
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,733
and it's and it's difficult because
697
00:24:00,733 --> 00:24:02,766
and you're gonna experience the same thing
698
00:24:03,183 --> 00:24:05,033
they always think he's older than he is
699
00:24:05,266 --> 00:24:07,933
and so they expect him to act differently
700
00:24:07,933 --> 00:24:08,183
they're like
701
00:24:08,183 --> 00:24:11,966
why is your 9 year old acting like a 6 year old
702
00:24:12,583 --> 00:24:12,833
yeah
703
00:24:13,016 --> 00:24:14,916
6:06 yeah
704
00:24:15,133 --> 00:24:15,900
it's yeah my
705
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,783
my son physically he's so much like me um
706
00:24:18,783 --> 00:24:21,000
he's very very tall uh
707
00:24:21,183 --> 00:24:22,733
but just kind of clumsy like
708
00:24:22,733 --> 00:24:24,400
you know it took him like
709
00:24:24,466 --> 00:24:24,933
I think
710
00:24:24,933 --> 00:24:26,816
babies are supposed to start rolling over when they're
711
00:24:26,816 --> 00:24:27,533
like three months
712
00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:30,566
he was he was like nine months before he rolled over uh
713
00:24:31,066 --> 00:24:32,300
like he never crawled
714
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,700
there's so much body to learn to maneuver like
715
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:34,983
like you know
716
00:24:34,983 --> 00:24:38,666
it's like driving a semi truck versus a Miata exactly
717
00:24:38,666 --> 00:24:40,200
exactly um
718
00:24:40,216 --> 00:24:40,616
but you know
719
00:24:40,616 --> 00:24:41,700
back back to kind of the
720
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:42,800
the point of like in adolescence
721
00:24:43,816 --> 00:24:45,616
like what what I remember is like
722
00:24:45,616 --> 00:24:52,066
you are growing into a feeling of like you
723
00:24:52,066 --> 00:24:53,100
you all of a sudden there's like
724
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,533
there's just a power there is a
725
00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:57,466
a power that comes with being in uh
726
00:24:57,466 --> 00:25:00,416
a male body particularly a certain kind of male body
727
00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:02,916
what one that's kind of larger than other people yeah
728
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,333
there's just an intrinsic power that comes with that
729
00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:08,100
and like you are growing into that power very
730
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,500
very quickly when you are uh 13
731
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:11,100
14 15
732
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,433
16 17 years old
733
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,966
um and it can feel intoxicating
734
00:25:16,183 --> 00:25:18,133
um it can feel really
735
00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:19,466
really thrilling um
736
00:25:19,466 --> 00:25:20,300
to all of a sudden
737
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:23,216
be bigger than most of the people who are around you
738
00:25:23,216 --> 00:25:24,900
and and everything that kind of comes with that
739
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:26,683
the expectations that come with that
740
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,816
um but it can also feel terrifying
741
00:25:28,816 --> 00:25:30,500
like terrifying um
742
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,466
you know and I remember like being around
743
00:25:33,466 --> 00:25:35,533
you know just around a lot of I
744
00:25:35,533 --> 00:25:39,816
I knew a lot of boys who did bad stuff
745
00:25:39,816 --> 00:25:41,466
who inflicted real harm on
746
00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:43,100
on other people um
747
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:45,700
and sometimes they were boys who I was really close to
748
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:46,966
and who um
749
00:25:47,183 --> 00:25:47,583
you know I
750
00:25:47,583 --> 00:25:49,983
I saw a lot of like goodness and in a lot of other ways
751
00:25:49,983 --> 00:25:51,383
but like um
752
00:25:51,383 --> 00:25:52,816
there's something about that that
753
00:25:52,816 --> 00:25:54,916
that I think really kind of uh
754
00:25:56,133 --> 00:25:56,500
you there
755
00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:58,266
there's just so much swimming in my head
756
00:25:58,266 --> 00:25:59,533
at that period of time where like
757
00:25:59,533 --> 00:26:01,700
you're seeing the destructive
758
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,166
power that kind of um
759
00:26:04,866 --> 00:26:05,983
you know that the people who
760
00:26:05,983 --> 00:26:08,533
who have bodies like yours can
761
00:26:08,533 --> 00:26:09,333
can uh
762
00:26:09,466 --> 00:26:10,183
can have you're
763
00:26:10,183 --> 00:26:11,583
and you're also kind of
764
00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:14,100
intoxicated by the ways in which you suddenly have
765
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,000
like access to so much that um
766
00:26:17,016 --> 00:26:17,133
that
767
00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:19,300
that you didn't have access to when you were younger
768
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,316
and so I I do think that like
769
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:28,816
whatever we can do to find ways to help teenage boys to
770
00:26:28,816 --> 00:26:29,766
kind of uh
771
00:26:30,383 --> 00:26:31,983
navigate that that time of life
772
00:26:31,983 --> 00:26:32,133
like
773
00:26:32,133 --> 00:26:35,383
understand all that they're going to be going through
774
00:26:35,383 --> 00:26:35,933
I mean there
775
00:26:35,933 --> 00:26:38,016
you know that parallels to um
776
00:26:38,016 --> 00:26:39,533
adolescent girls that there's obviously
777
00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:42,933
like a very clear right of passage that
778
00:26:42,933 --> 00:26:43,933
that happens for them that
779
00:26:43,933 --> 00:26:45,783
that's kind of a distinction between kind of
780
00:26:45,783 --> 00:26:46,466
a girlhood yeah
781
00:26:46,466 --> 00:26:47,666
it's a physical thing yeah yes
782
00:26:47,666 --> 00:26:49,066
yes and I
783
00:26:49,066 --> 00:26:49,900
I I spoke
784
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:50,983
when working on this book I
785
00:26:50,983 --> 00:26:54,100
I talked to a a woman journalist friend who um
786
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,733
you know talked about that specifically and was like I
787
00:26:55,733 --> 00:26:58,516
I I feel like um
788
00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:00,266
you know girls still kind of like just
789
00:27:00,266 --> 00:27:00,416
that
790
00:27:00,416 --> 00:27:02,583
there's just this physical change of having a period
791
00:27:02,583 --> 00:27:03,833
that is um
792
00:27:04,266 --> 00:27:05,066
uh
793
00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,383
gives them kind of a a passageway into
794
00:27:08,383 --> 00:27:10,983
into womanhood that's that boys are
795
00:27:10,983 --> 00:27:12,433
are kind of lacking um
796
00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:13,866
and so I but I
797
00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:15,266
I think that that stuff is important
798
00:27:15,266 --> 00:27:19,216
finding ways to kind of help boys to um
799
00:27:19,216 --> 00:27:22,066
navigate a time in your life that can feel so chaotic
800
00:27:22,066 --> 00:27:22,500
um and
801
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,283
and where you can feel so unmoored I
802
00:27:25,933 --> 00:27:27,216
it's helpful I don't know what the answer is
803
00:27:27,216 --> 00:27:27,616
but I I
804
00:27:27,616 --> 00:27:28,216
I love that
805
00:27:28,216 --> 00:27:29,616
it's something that you're thinking a lot about
806
00:27:29,616 --> 00:27:32,133
I'll tell you something that helps and
807
00:27:32,133 --> 00:27:33,500
and one of the things that
808
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,866
that I've noticed about my boy's experience is
809
00:27:36,866 --> 00:27:39,200
I can watch him go through things
810
00:27:39,483 --> 00:27:43,600
and that will uncover memories for me that I didn't
811
00:27:43,783 --> 00:27:44,900
wouldn't have been able to produce
812
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,716
if I hadn't been prompted by seeing him
813
00:27:47,933 --> 00:27:49,833
struggle with the same stuff
814
00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:51,666
and when I see that I
815
00:27:51,666 --> 00:27:54,183
I remember back when I struggled with the same stuff
816
00:27:54,183 --> 00:27:55,383
and how I thought about it
817
00:27:55,383 --> 00:27:56,900
and how I wished I thought about it
818
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:58,933
and all of that stuff and so
819
00:27:58,933 --> 00:28:00,466
all of that's to say
820
00:28:00,583 --> 00:28:03,183
that this is one of the reasons that
821
00:28:03,183 --> 00:28:05,500
male role models are so important
822
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:06,183
in the in
823
00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,266
in the in
824
00:28:07,266 --> 00:28:09,016
in the life of young boys and
825
00:28:09,016 --> 00:28:10,783
and especially adolescent boys
826
00:28:10,783 --> 00:28:12,216
because that is such a difficult
827
00:28:12,216 --> 00:28:14,500
unbelievably hard time of life it
828
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:15,866
it is it's
829
00:28:15,866 --> 00:28:17,583
for all the reasons that you talked about
830
00:28:17,583 --> 00:28:20,333
and he really needs someone there
831
00:28:20,333 --> 00:28:21,816
who's been through that maybe
832
00:28:21,816 --> 00:28:23,500
or even more than other people
833
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:25,400
and who can you know
834
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:26,183
say yeah
835
00:28:26,183 --> 00:28:27,383
this is normal and it's okay
836
00:28:27,383 --> 00:28:30,333
and just as just as a a
837
00:28:30,333 --> 00:28:32,900
a girl having her first period
838
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:35,900
needs a woman to help her learn how to deal with that
839
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,633
just in a physical way I don't think anybody
840
00:28:39,066 --> 00:28:41,066
like I I
841
00:28:41,066 --> 00:28:41,666
don't think anybody
842
00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,616
would expect a father to come and do that or
843
00:28:43,616 --> 00:28:46,000
or or think that a father could do that adequately
844
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:50,683
and yet we don't really necessarily culturally put the
845
00:28:50,983 --> 00:28:51,733
put that on us
846
00:28:51,733 --> 00:28:53,900
on men to make sure that they're there for the
847
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:57,216
for the boys in the same in the same way and
848
00:28:57,216 --> 00:28:58,950
but it really does help like
849
00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:02,066
you kind of get access to hidden knowledge
850
00:29:02,066 --> 00:29:03,816
or experiences that you don't remember
851
00:29:03,816 --> 00:29:05,333
you had um
852
00:29:05,333 --> 00:29:07,583
as your boy experiences those things
853
00:29:07,583 --> 00:29:10,766
you kind of get to experience them through him
854
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,700
yeah trip yeah
855
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,383
I I think
856
00:29:14,383 --> 00:29:15,133
you know to your point there
857
00:29:15,133 --> 00:29:16,683
there's just something I mean
858
00:29:17,016 --> 00:29:19,300
being able to empathize with another person is just
859
00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:20,666
enormously helpful I mean
860
00:29:20,666 --> 00:29:22,533
like having someone who can see and understand
861
00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:24,300
your experience is enormously helpful
862
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,800
and it is just a fact that uh
863
00:29:27,816 --> 00:29:31,983
certain experiences are are kind of uh
864
00:29:31,983 --> 00:29:34,616
unique to your sex or your gender and
865
00:29:34,616 --> 00:29:37,066
and certain experiences like
866
00:29:37,066 --> 00:29:39,500
when you can have some guidance
867
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,866
from someone who knows what that is like
868
00:29:41,866 --> 00:29:44,533
um there's going to be something about that
869
00:29:44,533 --> 00:29:46,616
that that is enormously helpful to you
870
00:29:46,616 --> 00:29:47,833
um and uh
871
00:29:48,066 --> 00:29:48,383
you know that
872
00:29:48,383 --> 00:29:50,600
that's not to say that um
873
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,783
men can't find ways to be
874
00:29:52,783 --> 00:29:54,416
to be there for um
875
00:29:54,416 --> 00:29:55,783
you know their daughters who
876
00:29:55,783 --> 00:29:57,100
who are going through kind of
877
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:58,983
physical and other changes that um
878
00:29:58,983 --> 00:30:00,100
that those men haven't experienced or
879
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,416
or that women can't do the same with
880
00:30:01,416 --> 00:30:02,900
with their sons or uh
881
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:03,583
you know other
882
00:30:03,583 --> 00:30:05,383
other children in in their lives um
883
00:30:05,383 --> 00:30:08,933
but it it is just simply like there
884
00:30:08,933 --> 00:30:11,466
there will be things that uh
885
00:30:11,466 --> 00:30:11,733
you know I
886
00:30:11,733 --> 00:30:14,033
I know that I experience things that like
887
00:30:14,266 --> 00:30:16,266
I wanted to talk to my dad about because I
888
00:30:16,266 --> 00:30:17,300
I knew that like
889
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,133
he was much more likely to have understood
890
00:30:19,133 --> 00:30:20,316
that experience than
891
00:30:20,333 --> 00:30:22,133
than my mom and and and
892
00:30:22,133 --> 00:30:23,683
and I I think that
893
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:24,500
you know it
894
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:25,900
the onus has to be on
895
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,066
on us as fathers to make sure that we are there in
896
00:30:29,066 --> 00:30:29,616
in that way
897
00:30:29,616 --> 00:30:31,466
to make sure that we are looking for those moments
898
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:33,666
where there are
899
00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:34,700
those points of connection
900
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,116
where we have been through that thing that's uh
901
00:30:37,383 --> 00:30:37,900
you know that
902
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:38,466
that a a
903
00:30:38,466 --> 00:30:39,583
a boy is going through and
904
00:30:39,583 --> 00:30:40,633
and we can kind of
905
00:30:40,633 --> 00:30:41,533
you know find ways to
906
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:43,066
to really uh
907
00:30:43,066 --> 00:30:44,216
signal that we're we're
908
00:30:44,216 --> 00:30:46,300
we're there and able to talk about it and understand
909
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:47,633
yeah yeah
910
00:30:47,983 --> 00:30:50,133
what did you learn in in this
911
00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:51,383
in the experience of writing this book
912
00:30:51,383 --> 00:30:52,966
what did you learn about the role
913
00:30:53,016 --> 00:30:55,833
of these men's own parents
914
00:30:56,183 --> 00:30:58,166
in crafting who they became
915
00:30:58,183 --> 00:30:58,466
it like
916
00:30:58,466 --> 00:31:00,533
in making their struggles harder or easier
917
00:31:00,533 --> 00:31:02,583
or successes greater or lesser
918
00:31:02,583 --> 00:31:06,466
or how did how did their parents impact that yeah
919
00:31:06,466 --> 00:31:06,983
um you know
920
00:31:06,983 --> 00:31:11,066
their fathers are are so different from one another um
921
00:31:11,066 --> 00:31:12,216
you know one Joseph
922
00:31:12,216 --> 00:31:14,716
who we talked about earlier um
923
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,616
the the one who's having the bit
924
00:31:16,616 --> 00:31:18,933
of a breakdown on the beautiful cross country road trip
925
00:31:18,933 --> 00:31:21,166
his father is um
926
00:31:22,183 --> 00:31:23,733
really abusive to Joseph's mother
927
00:31:23,733 --> 00:31:24,616
um never
928
00:31:24,616 --> 00:31:26,166
never abusive to Joseph himself
929
00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:28,733
but he grows up in a home where he watches
930
00:31:28,733 --> 00:31:32,500
he watches violence unfolding often and um
931
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:32,816
you know it
932
00:31:32,816 --> 00:31:34,766
it fills him with a you know
933
00:31:34,883 --> 00:31:36,866
pretty significant kind of loathing for
934
00:31:36,866 --> 00:31:38,933
for his father over time and he
935
00:31:38,933 --> 00:31:40,016
yeah um he
936
00:31:40,016 --> 00:31:42,083
he learns a lot really
937
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:45,216
he he's a bit adrift at times
938
00:31:45,216 --> 00:31:47,583
because he does not have a real
939
00:31:47,583 --> 00:31:50,233
strong model for who he wants to be himself
940
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:50,900
um he
941
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:52,216
and he's kind of seeking that in
942
00:31:52,216 --> 00:31:53,866
in other men in his life as he's in
943
00:31:53,866 --> 00:31:56,016
in early adulthood because um
944
00:31:56,016 --> 00:31:57,666
his father failed his mother in such
945
00:31:57,666 --> 00:31:59,333
such critical ways um
946
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,300
you know another one
947
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:01,516
um Gideon
948
00:32:01,533 --> 00:32:03,466
who is kind of a a uh
949
00:32:03,466 --> 00:32:05,183
typifies every masculine ideal
950
00:32:05,183 --> 00:32:08,133
like the baseball star West Point graduate tall
951
00:32:08,133 --> 00:32:09,433
smart handsome everything
952
00:32:09,816 --> 00:32:11,083
he um
953
00:32:11,733 --> 00:32:13,500
has a loving relationship to his father
954
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,466
but also had the sense that he was like
955
00:32:15,466 --> 00:32:17,333
kind of like a trophy in his family
956
00:32:17,333 --> 00:32:18,133
that he was
957
00:32:18,133 --> 00:32:19,866
because he was so good at all of these things
958
00:32:19,866 --> 00:32:21,983
because he was so gifted um
959
00:32:21,983 --> 00:32:23,666
he kind of internalized that
960
00:32:23,666 --> 00:32:26,616
like this is how I have worth in the world is by being
961
00:32:26,616 --> 00:32:28,483
excelling at all of these things
962
00:32:28,533 --> 00:32:32,133
um and I think he still
963
00:32:32,133 --> 00:32:32,616
to this day
964
00:32:32,616 --> 00:32:35,100
would say that his parents loved him tremendously
965
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,800
and were great in many ways but um
966
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:39,816
it was hard for him to kind of trust
967
00:32:39,816 --> 00:32:42,916
kind of his intrinsic I guess worth um
968
00:32:42,933 --> 00:32:44,216
and in part for kind of
969
00:32:44,216 --> 00:32:47,633
the ways that he was kind of reinforced as a kid um
970
00:32:47,816 --> 00:32:50,666
you know another Ryan is
971
00:32:50,666 --> 00:32:51,733
is someone who is
972
00:32:51,733 --> 00:32:54,733
his father is kind of your stereotypical like tough
973
00:32:54,733 --> 00:32:57,033
like fighter like someone who's
974
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,200
he'd been a boxer um
975
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:03,716
and Ryan gets picked on as a kid and his dad is um
976
00:33:04,183 --> 00:33:06,133
you immediately tries to teach him how to fight
977
00:33:06,133 --> 00:33:07,433
um and I
978
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,383
that scene is incredible and I remember I like
979
00:33:10,383 --> 00:33:12,716
I'm reading this scene and thinking
980
00:33:12,983 --> 00:33:14,566
that's exactly what I would do
981
00:33:14,816 --> 00:33:16,833
hmm if as the dad
982
00:33:17,183 --> 00:33:19,466
if I was that dad I would do that exact same alright
983
00:33:19,466 --> 00:33:19,866
you know that
984
00:33:19,866 --> 00:33:20,616
you know we're not
985
00:33:20,616 --> 00:33:22,300
we're not gonna let that happen again
986
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,466
and then seeing that experience through Ryan's eyes
987
00:33:25,466 --> 00:33:26,900
such a beautiful it's
988
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:28,300
it's it's really
989
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:30,100
really a great story well
990
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:31,133
thank you but what
991
00:33:31,133 --> 00:33:33,066
what's so fascinating about it is like in the moment
992
00:33:33,066 --> 00:33:34,133
so Ryan doesn't want that
993
00:33:34,133 --> 00:33:35,733
Ryan wants his dad to comfort him to
994
00:33:35,733 --> 00:33:37,416
to hold him to care for him
995
00:33:37,416 --> 00:33:39,733
but then what happens is Ryan continues getting bullied
996
00:33:39,733 --> 00:33:41,933
he he doesn't really ever learn to fight back
997
00:33:41,933 --> 00:33:45,933
until he is in college and we meet him as a young man
998
00:33:45,933 --> 00:33:47,733
and on the night when he snaps
999
00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:51,583
and he beats somebody up and he finds oh
1000
00:33:51,583 --> 00:33:53,583
I actually really like doing this
1001
00:33:53,583 --> 00:33:55,300
and he likes it in a way that is not really
1002
00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:56,466
purely out of self defense
1003
00:33:56,466 --> 00:33:57,833
he likes it in a way that's uh
1004
00:33:58,133 --> 00:33:59,416
you know quite destructive
1005
00:33:59,416 --> 00:34:01,400
um but he uh
1006
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:03,066
later like in
1007
00:34:03,066 --> 00:34:03,983
in early adulthood
1008
00:34:03,983 --> 00:34:06,783
like kind of is like bragging to his dad that his dad
1009
00:34:06,783 --> 00:34:08,816
who had kind of put these boxing gloves on
1010
00:34:08,816 --> 00:34:10,333
on his fist when he was a little boy
1011
00:34:10,333 --> 00:34:12,666
and tried to teach him how to fight and uh
1012
00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:14,500
he's trying to brag to his dad like hey
1013
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:15,100
like I you know
1014
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:16,416
I've been getting into some fights lately
1015
00:34:16,416 --> 00:34:18,200
like you should see what I'm doing to these guys
1016
00:34:18,216 --> 00:34:19,500
and his dad
1017
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,800
who is now encountering his son as a grown man is like
1018
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:24,866
what are you doing why are you so stupid
1019
00:34:24,866 --> 00:34:26,766
why would you be getting into these fights
1020
00:34:26,983 --> 00:34:27,866
and Ryan it like
1021
00:34:27,866 --> 00:34:29,700
does not compute in Ryan's brain
1022
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:31,816
because all he remembers is being this little boy
1023
00:34:31,816 --> 00:34:33,300
who his dad was uh
1024
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:34,733
was trying to um
1025
00:34:34,733 --> 00:34:37,033
to teach how to fight and so um
1026
00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:39,500
you know I think it's just a case where like
1027
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,683
what one thing about fatherhood is that like
1028
00:34:42,816 --> 00:34:45,983
every father brings to the table their own stuff off
1029
00:34:45,983 --> 00:34:48,733
their own insecurities their own um
1030
00:34:48,733 --> 00:34:49,716
kind of uh
1031
00:34:49,816 --> 00:34:52,300
feelings that they're kind of projecting onto their kid
1032
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,333
and I don't know exactly what was going through
1033
00:34:54,333 --> 00:34:56,416
through Ryan's father's mind at that moment
1034
00:34:56,416 --> 00:34:57,866
when he's trying to teach him how to fight
1035
00:34:57,866 --> 00:35:00,666
but like it was a moment where he felt like
1036
00:35:00,666 --> 00:35:02,700
I need to teach my boy how to fight back
1037
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:03,700
and then later when
1038
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,783
learning that his boy has grown into a man
1039
00:35:05,783 --> 00:35:07,883
who does fight back uh
1040
00:35:08,183 --> 00:35:10,133
he he goes to a place that a lot of parents go
1041
00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:11,700
which is like you shouldn't be hitting people
1042
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:13,400
that's bad yeah
1043
00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:14,700
and what a mix and I
1044
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:17,416
I thought another little aspect of that story that
1045
00:35:17,416 --> 00:35:19,466
I mean it's just this tiny little vignette and
1046
00:35:19,466 --> 00:35:22,566
and yet it it was so um
1047
00:35:23,216 --> 00:35:24,133
uh it
1048
00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:25,383
it it's really
1049
00:35:25,383 --> 00:35:26,966
it was really impactful to me
1050
00:35:27,016 --> 00:35:29,383
which is you kind of get into the
1051
00:35:29,383 --> 00:35:31,433
the mind of the father for a moment
1052
00:35:31,616 --> 00:35:37,133
where the father is kind of teaching the son to fight
1053
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:41,066
not so that not just so that he'll be protected yeah
1054
00:35:41,066 --> 00:35:44,766
but also because the father feels a little bit of shame
1055
00:35:45,616 --> 00:35:47,316
that his son got beat up
1056
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:50,666
yeah at least that's how Ryan kind of took it yeah
1057
00:35:50,666 --> 00:35:52,333
at least that's how he felt about it
1058
00:35:52,333 --> 00:35:53,733
Ryan doesn't know but that's yeah
1059
00:35:53,733 --> 00:35:55,766
yeah um
1060
00:35:55,866 --> 00:35:57,300
and I I do
1061
00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:58,683
I think that that's like
1062
00:35:59,533 --> 00:36:01,983
it's such a natural impulse um
1063
00:36:01,983 --> 00:36:06,283
for any parent to internalize like uh
1064
00:36:06,816 --> 00:36:09,216
any any struggle that your kid might have
1065
00:36:09,216 --> 00:36:11,066
is somehow a reflection on you in
1066
00:36:11,066 --> 00:36:12,733
in a negative way and like
1067
00:36:12,733 --> 00:36:16,666
the things that we value and the things that feel like
1068
00:36:16,666 --> 00:36:18,333
embarrassing to us are often
1069
00:36:18,333 --> 00:36:20,183
gonna be different from the things that our kids
1070
00:36:20,183 --> 00:36:22,716
value and that feel embarrassing to them um
1071
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,083
and so we uh
1072
00:36:25,333 --> 00:36:28,566
yeah can have so much of our own identity um
1073
00:36:28,583 --> 00:36:30,316
wrapped up in uh
1074
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:31,100
and and
1075
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,300
and and those sorts of things and
1076
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:32,933
you know again
1077
00:36:32,933 --> 00:36:34,266
the the flip side of that is
1078
00:36:34,266 --> 00:36:35,133
is Gideon the
1079
00:36:35,133 --> 00:36:37,700
the kind of star athlete whose parents are uh
1080
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,133
just so over the moon thrilled with him all the time
1081
00:36:40,133 --> 00:36:41,883
because of the fact that he is uh
1082
00:36:42,166 --> 00:36:43,700
he's accomplishing so much
1083
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:48,200
while at the same time he's not necessarily uh
1084
00:36:48,583 --> 00:36:51,533
learning what he needs to learn to be kind of a fully
1085
00:36:51,533 --> 00:36:52,766
um you know
1086
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,383
a a man who can have like a full robust
1087
00:36:56,383 --> 00:36:57,733
fulfilling kind of life
1088
00:36:57,733 --> 00:36:59,500
because he's kind of chasing that
1089
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,166
that sense of accomplishment all the time
1090
00:37:02,416 --> 00:37:09,833
yeah and the outward trappings of being so successful
1091
00:37:11,066 --> 00:37:15,833
are they they sort of belay the internal experience
1092
00:37:16,216 --> 00:37:17,266
and so you know
1093
00:37:17,266 --> 00:37:18,066
he doesn't
1094
00:37:18,333 --> 00:37:20,700
he doesn't necessarily feel that he's that successful
1095
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:21,133
right and
1096
00:37:21,133 --> 00:37:24,300
and he doesn't exactly and so but
1097
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,383
but everybody treats him like he is and so he's like
1098
00:37:27,383 --> 00:37:28,483
and and that
1099
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:32,600
that can really make it hard to
1100
00:37:33,133 --> 00:37:33,866
address
1101
00:37:33,866 --> 00:37:36,300
that gap that we talked about in the very beginning
1102
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:36,816
right you know
1103
00:37:36,816 --> 00:37:41,066
he's got he's got this internal experience of not being
1104
00:37:41,066 --> 00:37:43,483
but everybody thinks you're this thing over here
1105
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:45,600
and I feel like this thing over here
1106
00:37:45,783 --> 00:37:48,216
and I feel like I like that
1107
00:37:48,216 --> 00:37:51,016
everybody thinks that I'm like this and
1108
00:37:51,016 --> 00:37:53,183
and if I tell people that no
1109
00:37:53,183 --> 00:37:54,700
this is really my experience
1110
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,966
then this is a bubble that's gonna pop
1111
00:37:57,533 --> 00:37:59,016
and I can't let that happen
1112
00:37:59,016 --> 00:38:00,866
because this is my identity I
1113
00:38:00,866 --> 00:38:02,716
and what I mean
1114
00:38:02,816 --> 00:38:07,766
being able to read about that in such an honest way
1115
00:38:07,933 --> 00:38:11,033
and it's you know
1116
00:38:11,616 --> 00:38:14,600
these men that agreed to do this thing
1117
00:38:15,666 --> 00:38:18,466
are really courageous and
1118
00:38:18,466 --> 00:38:19,666
you know and in some cases
1119
00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:21,566
like you're even using their real names
1120
00:38:21,816 --> 00:38:22,416
uh huh
1121
00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:23,216
um not in all of them
1122
00:38:23,216 --> 00:38:24,300
and you know you
1123
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:25,100
you've
1124
00:38:25,416 --> 00:38:27,266
and but I don't know man
1125
00:38:27,266 --> 00:38:28,083
I mean
1126
00:38:29,183 --> 00:38:31,766
I really admire them yeah
1127
00:38:32,016 --> 00:38:33,016
uh yeah
1128
00:38:33,016 --> 00:38:33,900
I I I
1129
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,466
I really really do too
1130
00:38:35,466 --> 00:38:37,216
um you know I
1131
00:38:37,216 --> 00:38:41,033
I I just can't say enough about um
1132
00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:43,583
their willingness to to be open
1133
00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:47,766
um about their willingness to kind of reveal uh
1134
00:38:47,933 --> 00:38:49,566
some pretty difficult uh
1135
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:50,866
pieces of themselves some the
1136
00:38:50,866 --> 00:38:52,583
uh so many of these stories that that
1137
00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:55,700
that are in this book are not flattering to them um
1138
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,433
you know that they're uh
1139
00:38:57,666 --> 00:38:59,216
they're full they're nuanced
1140
00:38:59,216 --> 00:39:00,733
they're complex um
1141
00:39:00,733 --> 00:39:03,866
but often they they don't look great but
1142
00:39:03,866 --> 00:39:04,533
but they're
1143
00:39:04,533 --> 00:39:06,916
they're these real kind of raw and authentic
1144
00:39:07,133 --> 00:39:08,100
um you know
1145
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,983
peaks into into their experience
1146
00:39:09,983 --> 00:39:11,566
and you know Gideon
1147
00:39:11,583 --> 00:39:12,583
um in particular
1148
00:39:12,583 --> 00:39:13,583
since we were talking about him
1149
00:39:13,583 --> 00:39:16,433
like he and his name has been changed but um
1150
00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:19,016
he just let me I mean
1151
00:39:19,016 --> 00:39:23,133
he let it's so rare that we get a peek into what
1152
00:39:23,133 --> 00:39:25,133
the kind of insecurities that are roiling
1153
00:39:25,133 --> 00:39:26,266
beneath the person
1154
00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,900
who seems like he has everything going for him
1155
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:31,683
um and like he
1156
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:33,716
I mean it even like this the
1157
00:39:33,733 --> 00:39:35,100
his chapter part of the book
1158
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:36,016
kind of opens with him
1159
00:39:36,016 --> 00:39:38,616
feeling insecure about the size of his penis right
1160
00:39:38,616 --> 00:39:40,116
I mean like he
1161
00:39:40,366 --> 00:39:41,816
and that was a conversation
1162
00:39:41,816 --> 00:39:42,616
we had that conversation
1163
00:39:42,616 --> 00:39:45,266
about four years in to this five year process
1164
00:39:45,266 --> 00:39:48,583
um he'd made an offhand comment about it once years ago
1165
00:39:48,583 --> 00:39:49,183
and I
1166
00:39:49,183 --> 00:39:51,983
we were like on a walk near his home and I just said
1167
00:39:51,983 --> 00:39:53,183
can we talk about the
1168
00:39:53,183 --> 00:39:55,283
can we talk about how you feel about your penis
1169
00:39:55,583 --> 00:39:56,466
and he was like yep
1170
00:39:56,466 --> 00:39:57,733
let's go what do you wanna know
1171
00:39:57,733 --> 00:40:00,000
and and so we did um
1172
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:00,733
but you know the
1173
00:40:00,733 --> 00:40:03,566
the other other guys as well like um
1174
00:40:04,066 --> 00:40:04,933
it's just really
1175
00:40:04,933 --> 00:40:07,500
really astonishing how much they kind of let me
1176
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:09,816
let me into their lives and you
1177
00:40:09,816 --> 00:40:10,900
some of them Ryan
1178
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,583
um who we'd spent some time talking about
1179
00:40:12,583 --> 00:40:14,783
the one who whose father tried to teach him to fight
1180
00:40:14,783 --> 00:40:17,000
and who later starts fighting when he's older
1181
00:40:17,066 --> 00:40:17,866
um
1182
00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:19,933
he did use his real name uh
1183
00:40:19,933 --> 00:40:23,666
and he has been like this is my story
1184
00:40:23,666 --> 00:40:26,183
um I don't know how everyone's gonna feel about it
1185
00:40:26,183 --> 00:40:27,500
but uh
1186
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:31,966
this is who I am and my hope is that sharing it might
1187
00:40:32,016 --> 00:40:34,133
have a positive impact on someone
1188
00:40:34,133 --> 00:40:37,766
and I I wanna kind of stand behind the fact that um
1189
00:40:37,933 --> 00:40:39,300
that this is me um
1190
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:41,033
and so uh
1191
00:40:41,133 --> 00:40:41,500
yeah I
1192
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:41,700
I I
1193
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,183
I just can't say enough about how open and honest and
1194
00:40:46,183 --> 00:40:48,500
and vulnerable each of these guys are willing to be
1195
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:49,416
yeah and
1196
00:40:49,416 --> 00:40:50,566
I mean his case is
1197
00:40:50,816 --> 00:40:53,833
that's really courageous his story in particular is
1198
00:40:54,566 --> 00:40:56,933
he's tough yeah
1199
00:40:56,933 --> 00:40:58,166
he does some rough stuff and
1200
00:40:58,383 --> 00:40:59,733
and you know
1201
00:40:59,733 --> 00:41:01,283
the fact that he's willing to do it
1202
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:02,700
attach his own name to that I
1203
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,933
I don't I don't know if
1204
00:41:03,933 --> 00:41:05,216
I don't think I'd do it I
1205
00:41:05,216 --> 00:41:06,533
I don't know we're
1206
00:41:06,533 --> 00:41:09,000
and we're all the richer for it and um
1207
00:41:09,533 --> 00:41:10,100
you know but
1208
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:13,733
I mean even just sharing the story under pseudonym is
1209
00:41:13,733 --> 00:41:15,783
is really brave absolutely
1210
00:41:15,783 --> 00:41:16,933
and absolutely yeah
1211
00:41:16,933 --> 00:41:18,416
I mean we're
1212
00:41:18,416 --> 00:41:20,466
we're really fortunate yeah
1213
00:41:20,466 --> 00:41:22,733
we're really fortunate they decided to let you do it
1214
00:41:22,733 --> 00:41:25,200
and we're really fortunate you decided to do it too
1215
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:26,133
well thank you one
1216
00:41:26,133 --> 00:41:27,900
one last thing about that that
1217
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,000
that I'll share is um
1218
00:41:30,383 --> 00:41:31,866
you know one of the men
1219
00:41:31,866 --> 00:41:32,666
um
1220
00:41:33,333 --> 00:41:34,183
one thing I did was
1221
00:41:34,183 --> 00:41:37,883
I let them all see their stories in advance
1222
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:38,533
um I
1223
00:41:38,533 --> 00:41:39,500
I just felt like
1224
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,733
I wanted to write it with so much intimacy
1225
00:41:41,733 --> 00:41:44,700
that I felt like I couldn't publish it without them
1226
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,783
like being able to sit with it and
1227
00:41:47,783 --> 00:41:49,183
and kind of give me a sense of like
1228
00:41:49,183 --> 00:41:50,933
whether I'd kind of captured it or not
1229
00:41:50,933 --> 00:41:52,466
um and the first time I did it
1230
00:41:52,466 --> 00:41:54,266
what I did is I read it out loud to each of
1231
00:41:54,266 --> 00:41:55,983
them I I went in person
1232
00:41:55,983 --> 00:41:57,916
I can't imagine what this session was like
1233
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,333
it was I can't imagine I mean that takes balls
1234
00:42:01,333 --> 00:42:02,700
it takes balls to do that
1235
00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,816
to decide to do it and to listen to it on all sides
1236
00:42:05,816 --> 00:42:06,633
that is
1237
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:08,416
there's some masculinity happening in that room
1238
00:42:08,416 --> 00:42:10,333
right there it was it was intense
1239
00:42:10,333 --> 00:42:11,716
but you know one of them
1240
00:42:11,783 --> 00:42:15,333
there was one scene that's particularly rough
1241
00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:17,416
and he was like
1242
00:42:17,416 --> 00:42:18,616
the first time I read it out loud to him
1243
00:42:18,616 --> 00:42:21,300
he was like I don't know if I can do this
1244
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,216
uh like this is after we'd spent years doing work
1245
00:42:24,216 --> 00:42:25,183
doing all these interviews
1246
00:42:25,183 --> 00:42:26,300
all spending all this time together
1247
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,183
me following him through so much of his life
1248
00:42:28,183 --> 00:42:31,333
and he just had this visceral reaction to it
1249
00:42:31,333 --> 00:42:31,533
he's like
1250
00:42:31,533 --> 00:42:34,100
it's all true like everything you just read happened
1251
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,033
but like something about it was just really tough
1252
00:42:37,183 --> 00:42:38,183
and you know
1253
00:42:38,183 --> 00:42:39,616
then he came back to me a couple weeks later
1254
00:42:39,616 --> 00:42:41,700
we didn't talk for a couple weeks and he said like
1255
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:42,333
I'm good
1256
00:42:42,333 --> 00:42:45,100
like don't change a thing like I'm I'm totally fine
1257
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:47,216
and this was one of the men who is a parent
1258
00:42:47,216 --> 00:42:48,716
and what he said was
1259
00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:50,816
the thought of my child reading this
1260
00:42:50,816 --> 00:42:52,466
when they are 15 years old
1261
00:42:52,466 --> 00:42:54,700
and knowing that this is me uh
1262
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,633
feels absolutely terrifying like terrifying um
1263
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:59,983
but the thought of my child reading this
1264
00:42:59,983 --> 00:43:02,816
when they are forty and I am an old
1265
00:43:02,816 --> 00:43:06,333
man and they have now gone through a lot of stuff
1266
00:43:06,333 --> 00:43:08,583
in their own lives and they have this like
1267
00:43:08,583 --> 00:43:12,066
window into who their father was and is
1268
00:43:12,066 --> 00:43:14,366
and all of the things that shaped me um
1269
00:43:14,533 --> 00:43:16,183
that actually feels really nice like to
1270
00:43:16,183 --> 00:43:19,916
to be to be known by by them in that way and uh
1271
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:23,666
and so he didn't ask me to change a thing and um yeah
1272
00:43:23,666 --> 00:43:25,616
I I feel you know just can
1273
00:43:25,616 --> 00:43:27,383
cannot say enough about like the
1274
00:43:27,383 --> 00:43:28,900
the level of vulnerability and
1275
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:31,616
and courage that each of these guys had in in sharing
1276
00:43:31,616 --> 00:43:32,566
sharing this way
1277
00:43:32,816 --> 00:43:34,816
we should all have a journalist follow us around
1278
00:43:34,816 --> 00:43:36,233
for five years hahaha
1279
00:43:36,383 --> 00:43:38,883
I do kind of believe that our story like hahaha
1280
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:39,716
so that our
1281
00:43:39,816 --> 00:43:42,433
our sons can read it when when we're eighty
1282
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:45,700
maybe AI I I do think we might be better off where
1283
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,466
you know there there's just something powerful
1284
00:43:47,466 --> 00:43:49,100
everyone's story is fascinating
1285
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:53,333
like everyone's story if you dig deep enough
1286
00:43:53,333 --> 00:43:55,066
like there there's some interesting stuff there
1287
00:43:55,066 --> 00:43:56,216
and uh I
1288
00:43:56,216 --> 00:43:57,866
I think that it's a really powerful thing
1289
00:43:57,866 --> 00:43:59,066
to have your story told and
1290
00:43:59,066 --> 00:44:00,216
and to be able to like
1291
00:44:00,216 --> 00:44:01,900
more fully understand the stories of
1292
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:03,483
of people you you know and love
1293
00:44:03,583 --> 00:44:05,033
I think that's absolutely true
1294
00:44:05,133 --> 00:44:08,100
I always love to end these conversations with the
1295
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:10,200
more or less the same question of everybody
1296
00:44:10,466 --> 00:44:13,600
and that is if there's one principle
1297
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:17,100
that every parent listening might live by to
1298
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,466
to guide them as they raise excellent men
1299
00:44:20,466 --> 00:44:22,183
what what principle do you
1300
00:44:22,183 --> 00:44:25,283
would you come up with yeah um
1301
00:44:25,816 --> 00:44:28,100
I I don't know if this counts as a principle or not
1302
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:28,266
but
1303
00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:31,300
the two things that I try to hold on to all the time
1304
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,000
are just empathy and curiosity
1305
00:44:34,266 --> 00:44:38,900
um just trying to as much and again
1306
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,666
it's tough with a two and a half year old to like fully
1307
00:44:41,666 --> 00:44:44,616
like empathize with what's going on in
1308
00:44:44,616 --> 00:44:46,383
in his little brain um
1309
00:44:46,383 --> 00:44:47,683
but uh
1310
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,100
trying to you know
1311
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,066
I can at times
1312
00:44:51,066 --> 00:44:53,216
it can be easy to get pulled into power struggles
1313
00:44:53,216 --> 00:44:54,200
and like yeah
1314
00:44:54,216 --> 00:44:55,133
uh like I
1315
00:44:55,133 --> 00:44:56,133
we're gonna do this
1316
00:44:56,133 --> 00:44:59,816
and we're gonna do this because I said so and um
1317
00:44:59,816 --> 00:45:01,216
and while you want you know
1318
00:45:01,216 --> 00:45:02,333
those firm boundaries
1319
00:45:02,333 --> 00:45:04,800
you want those clear like sets of expectations
1320
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:05,583
um I
1321
00:45:05,583 --> 00:45:07,133
I I think that also
1322
00:45:07,133 --> 00:45:10,266
like allowing yourself to try to understand
1323
00:45:10,266 --> 00:45:11,900
as best as you can like to
1324
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:12,933
to the best of like
1325
00:45:12,933 --> 00:45:15,483
the limits of your own empathy or curiosity
1326
00:45:15,816 --> 00:45:17,300
what's going on and
1327
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,066
and that that is making this
1328
00:45:19,066 --> 00:45:20,883
making your kid you know
1329
00:45:21,016 --> 00:45:22,933
pitch the fit that they're pitching or
1330
00:45:22,933 --> 00:45:25,300
or do whatever it is that they're doing um
1331
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:26,533
and if you can just like
1332
00:45:26,533 --> 00:45:28,733
just even the attempt to understand
1333
00:45:28,733 --> 00:45:31,033
even the attempt to um
1334
00:45:31,616 --> 00:45:33,466
try to enter into their experience ever
1335
00:45:33,466 --> 00:45:35,666
ever so briefly I think can
1336
00:45:35,666 --> 00:45:38,400
can allow you to um
1337
00:45:38,533 --> 00:45:39,983
you know engage with them in a way that is
1338
00:45:39,983 --> 00:45:41,916
a little bit more uh
1339
00:45:42,183 --> 00:45:44,433
just kind of open to um
1340
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,216
to kind of the the full reality of of
1341
00:45:47,216 --> 00:45:49,016
of their experience and and the fact that
1342
00:45:49,016 --> 00:45:55,266
like they are a full complex human being just as we are
1343
00:45:55,266 --> 00:45:56,783
um even though they're
1344
00:45:56,783 --> 00:45:57,933
they're still in formation
1345
00:45:57,933 --> 00:45:59,266
even though so much of
1346
00:45:59,266 --> 00:46:01,416
kind of the way their brains work is uh not
1347
00:46:01,416 --> 00:46:03,333
not ideal um
1348
00:46:03,333 --> 00:46:04,700
like that they are having full
1349
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:05,900
rich experiences
1350
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,016
just as we are at every moment of every day
1351
00:46:08,016 --> 00:46:09,616
and trying to kind of uh
1352
00:46:09,616 --> 00:46:11,616
understand those experiences
1353
00:46:11,616 --> 00:46:12,816
the best you can in the moment I
1354
00:46:12,816 --> 00:46:15,333
I think serves you well I love that principle
1355
00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,900
I think it's great um
1356
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:18,900
it definitely qualifies and I think I
1357
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:20,966
I mean it really is uh
1358
00:46:21,266 --> 00:46:21,983
your the the
1359
00:46:21,983 --> 00:46:24,983
the book also reminds us that
1360
00:46:24,983 --> 00:46:27,100
one of the most important gifts
1361
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:28,733
that we can give our boys
1362
00:46:28,733 --> 00:46:31,100
is that gift of being seen
1363
00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:32,433
and of being known
1364
00:46:33,016 --> 00:46:35,733
right and that they always have this place
1365
00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:36,900
they always have this place
1366
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,100
no matter what they always have this place
1367
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,283
it is a safe place to come and
1368
00:46:41,483 --> 00:46:43,683
you know show yourself with all your faults
1369
00:46:43,816 --> 00:46:45,983
and if you do nothing else as a parent of
1370
00:46:45,983 --> 00:46:50,433
of a boy that's what you wanna be doing absolutely
1371
00:46:50,583 --> 00:46:50,900
absolutely and
1372
00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:53,466
you know you don't have to wait for crises to
1373
00:46:53,466 --> 00:46:55,016
to start those conversations right
1374
00:46:55,016 --> 00:46:56,200
you you start
1375
00:46:56,266 --> 00:46:58,300
it's not even I mean it's
1376
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:02,666
it's about how you even react when they
1377
00:47:02,666 --> 00:47:04,916
you know throw a fit like yeah
1378
00:47:05,066 --> 00:47:06,016
you can throw a fit if you want
1379
00:47:06,016 --> 00:47:07,233
like I get it
1380
00:47:07,383 --> 00:47:08,266
it's fine yeah
1381
00:47:08,266 --> 00:47:10,416
please don't hit people please don't call me that
1382
00:47:10,416 --> 00:47:11,133
you know let's
1383
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let's set some boundaries to this
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but you know
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man sure
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you gotta if it's a part of learning how to deal with
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00:47:16,866 --> 00:47:19,200
strong emotions that's great right absolutely
1388
00:47:19,216 --> 00:47:21,183
absolutely um yeah I
1389
00:47:21,183 --> 00:47:23,016
I I totally agree with all of that yeah
1390
00:47:23,016 --> 00:47:23,466
well Jordan
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00:47:23,466 --> 00:47:26,233
thank you so much for joining us today
1392
00:47:26,416 --> 00:47:26,616
uh it
1393
00:47:26,616 --> 00:47:28,183
it has been an absolute privilege to
1394
00:47:28,183 --> 00:47:31,000
to talk to you and and thank you for uh
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00:47:31,533 --> 00:47:33,983
for the book as well thank you so much Sean
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00:47:33,983 --> 00:47:35,266
I I uh yeah really
1397
00:47:35,266 --> 00:47:37,100
really love this conversation and uh
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00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:39,533
so admire and appreciate the work that you're doing
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and I was was grateful to have the chance to talk
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thanks a ton
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00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:47,100
if you found today's deep dive into American men
1402
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:50,866
helpful please pick up a copy of Jordan's book
1403
00:47:50,866 --> 00:47:52,933
and don't forget to like and subscribe to us
1404
00:47:52,933 --> 00:47:55,766
and leave a review more than just about anything
1405
00:47:55,866 --> 00:47:58,233
the reviews really help other people find the show
1406
00:47:58,383 --> 00:48:00,933
my name is Sean Dawson and thank you for joining us
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00:48:00,933 --> 00:48:04,233
and remember you are a great parent
1408
00:48:13,066 --> 00:48:16,500
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
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00:48:16,750 --> 00:48:19,550
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,116
you kind of get access to hidden knowledge
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or experiences that you don't remember you had
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as your boy experiences those things
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you kind of get to experience them through him
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yeah I
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I think you know
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to your point there there's just something
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I mean being able to empathize with another person
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is just enormously helpful
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and it is just a fact that uh
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certain experiences are kind of uh
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unique to your sex or your gender and
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and certain experiences like
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when you can have some guidance from someone
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who knows what that is like
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there's going to be something about that
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that that is enormously helpful to you
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welcome back to Raising Men
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I'm your host Shawn Dawson
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now we often talk on this show
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about the missing roadmap from modern manhood
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the fact that our sons are growing up in a world
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that sends them loud often contradictory
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messages about what it means to be a man
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but today's guest has maybe
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a slightly different point of view
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which I'm really eager to get into
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Jordan Ritter Con
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is a senior staff writer at the Ringer
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and he's an acclaimed author
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known for his deep immersion journalism
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for his latest book American men
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Jordan spent five years
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almost living alongside four different
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very different men
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capturing the searing intimacy of their lives
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their failures and their triumphs
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now he kind of
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argues that these men have gotten the message
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of what it means to be a man
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loud and clear but the difficulty arises
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when they're confronted with the ways that
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they don't feel like they're living up to the ideal
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that they're holding in their own heads
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and the result
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this book is I think
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a result a
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a result of genuine intimate storytelling
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and like most stories it gets to the truth
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in a way that data and statistics can't
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Jordan thank you so much for joining us
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and welcome to Raising Men
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thank you so much for having me
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I'm I'm so thrilled to be here Sean
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so now
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how did you decide to embark on this journey
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this was five years ago and I
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I mean I think five years ago
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the vision of you know
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doing something on masculinity was
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most people if you told that to
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they would think that
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you're on a different journey than
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you actually ended up on
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so how did you decide to do this and
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and how do you feel about it
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yeah um
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so you know I
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I have always had going back to
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you know when I was a kid
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always had very close relationships with other boys and
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and with men in in my adulthood um
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the kind of friendships that we're often told that
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boys and men don't have um
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or or can't
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can't develop friendships that are based on
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you know real trust and intimacy
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really sharing things vulnerably
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um and uh
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and you know
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that that kind of carried over into my journalism
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once I became a journalist
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I kind of focused on um
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like you said kind of like immersive storytelling
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like really digging deep into
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into people's lives and
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you know a lot of my background is in sports
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and so if you're in sports journalism
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you spend a lot of time talking to men
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and and in the kind of journalism that I've done
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it's a lot of time talking to men
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about things that we're so often told
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that men don't really want to share
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talking with them about their insecurities
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talking with them about their failures
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talking with them about you know
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traumas
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and and so
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you know a few years ago
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and at this point um
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it's been
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it's now been six years since I really kind of
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embarked on on beginning this book uh
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just cause some some
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time has passed since I finished it now um
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I was I was just thinking like
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there's starting to be these conversations around
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around men about you'd see these headlines about
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like
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the first rumblings of headlines about male loneliness
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and in kind of the the late 20
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like 2018 1920 um
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you'd see the first rumblings of headlines about men
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kind of sometimes not carrying their emotional weight
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I I guess in
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in relationships you start hearing like
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terms like emotional labor start
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start kind of being introduced into the
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the way that we talk culturally
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um
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you start to hear things about men's unwillingness to
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um you know
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seek professional help when
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when they're going through things um and
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and to uh
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you know to open
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open up let people into their lives
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and I just had the thought of like
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you know I've spent a lot of my personal life
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and now a lot of my professional life
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talking to men about these very things
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um I
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I feel like I've had experiences
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that have LED me to think that men are willing to
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open up are willing to kind of let people in
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do want to um
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kind of do some of this work that we're so often told
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that they don't and so I
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I thought like
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if I could cast a wide net
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find a few guys
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whose stories are so different from one another
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but who could add up to something kind of
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a larger picture um
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outside of just their individual stories that I could
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I could have something I I
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I could have a book that people might be really
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interested in and
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and drawn to um
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certainly when when I started this process
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the conversation around this stuff was very different
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than than it is now
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the conversation has gotten louder and louder
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and louder over the course of those 5
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6 years
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but
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I felt even back then
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like there would be a hunger for something like this
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yeah I think you're 100% right
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and I think you I think you've proven um
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your point there I
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one of the things that really struck me in
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in hearing
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um you talk about this
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is that there is this conception that men
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are not willing to talk about their feelings
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and you started this endeavor with just
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totally rejecting that
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and when I heard you talking about that it
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it occurred to me I really I
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I realized yeah
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the deal isn't that men
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don't want to open up and talk about that stuff they're
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and and
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nor is it the case
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that they're not capable of talking about it
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it's that they do not have safe spaces
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in which it's possible to talk about it
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without being judged
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without having maybe serious social repercussions
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or that sort of thing what do you think about yeah
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give me a response to that
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yeah um
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you know I
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I do think I think that the real key is
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you a couple things
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we um
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need to feel like the
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the other person is genuinely curious um
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need to feel like the other person really wants to know
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um and
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and so that often means
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we need to be asked things pretty directly
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I mean we
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we need to be given like
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kind of a permission structure for
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for opening up because we are
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we do kind of inherit these messages um
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that that's showing um
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any any kind of vulnerability or openness is
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is showing weakness um
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and and
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you know to
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to be honest with you we
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our culture
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often associates any sense of weakness with femininity
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and our culture as men we
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we are
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we learn these really lessons that kind of harm us all
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that that teach us to kind of
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reject femininity from the time we're very
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very young
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you know but I
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I think that we need to to really be invited in to
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to to these kind of conversations and
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and be given
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given that kind of direct permission to open up
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but then also I do think we need a sense that and
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and this is what I could offer to these guys um
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like you said that there's a fear of being judged um
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and and what I could offer to
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to these guys who I write about in this book is like
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I'm I really wanna know
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I'm gonna ask you these very direct questions
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I wanna know the answers
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and they would show me a little bit
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and I don't judge them
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then they show me a little bit more
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and I don't judge them
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and then they show me a lot more and um
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and I I do think that there is often this fear that
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if anyone really sees me uh
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they will think less of me
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if anyone really sees me that they
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they will judge me if it is another
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another man they might
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you know find me to be weak or lacking in some way um
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if it is if it is a woman they
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there might be parts of my experience
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that they can't fully relate to
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or understand that they find to be um
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you know either weak or lacking similarly or
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or just bad um
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you know like that
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like some some part of me is
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is is not good um and
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and I I think that's a fear that
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that we all have none of us want to be seen by
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especially by people that we care about um
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as any of those things
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and so we need to be able to feel like um
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you know the person just really
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really wants to know and
254
00:08:55,533 --> 00:08:58,433
and is going to take what we say
255
00:08:58,466 --> 00:08:59,216
and kind of
256
00:08:59,216 --> 00:09:02,066
integrate it into the way that they view us that
257
00:09:02,066 --> 00:09:03,016
that is already kind of
258
00:09:03,016 --> 00:09:04,733
wanting the best for us and caring for us and
259
00:09:04,733 --> 00:09:05,016
not
260
00:09:05,016 --> 00:09:08,083
kind of change the way they view us in a way that is um
261
00:09:08,333 --> 00:09:10,433
you know that feels harmful and hurtful yeah
262
00:09:10,866 --> 00:09:11,466
you you
263
00:09:11,466 --> 00:09:14,833
you begin the story of of Jordan
264
00:09:15,216 --> 00:09:17,633
with this detailed
265
00:09:18,583 --> 00:09:22,100
breakdown of this obsession that he has
266
00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:22,616
while they're
267
00:09:22,616 --> 00:09:24,900
while he's driving across the country with his wife
268
00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,183
of the temperature of the car
269
00:09:27,183 --> 00:09:29,000
as they're driving through Yellow Joseph
270
00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:31,933
and so they're driving across country
271
00:09:31,933 --> 00:09:34,933
so that he can go to law school and
272
00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:37,483
and he's sitting there obsessing over
273
00:09:37,533 --> 00:09:39,733
the fact that the temperature of his car is
274
00:09:39,733 --> 00:09:40,916
like 30 degrees
275
00:09:41,016 --> 00:09:43,533
higher than it has been for the rest of the drive
276
00:09:43,533 --> 00:09:45,300
and he's worried that the car's gonna break down
277
00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:46,466
and then oh my gosh
278
00:09:46,466 --> 00:09:48,183
we don't have enough money to afford a new engine
279
00:09:48,183 --> 00:09:48,866
if that happens
280
00:09:48,866 --> 00:09:51,083
and what do I do when I can't let her drive
281
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:52,216
because if she drives
282
00:09:52,216 --> 00:09:53,500
then she's gonna notice this stuff
283
00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:55,116
and then she's gonna realize
284
00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,533
that I'm not suited to be a protector or a provider and
285
00:09:58,533 --> 00:09:59,466
and all of this stuff
286
00:09:59,466 --> 00:10:03,216
and I think that that that experience meanwhile
287
00:10:03,216 --> 00:10:05,683
his wife is enjoying um
288
00:10:06,216 --> 00:10:07,333
you know the sights and
289
00:10:07,333 --> 00:10:09,616
and wanting to stop at every single possible thing
290
00:10:09,616 --> 00:10:10,666
this is the first time they're gonna
291
00:10:10,666 --> 00:10:11,383
it's the only time
292
00:10:11,383 --> 00:10:13,016
maybe they're gonna drive all the way across country
293
00:10:13,016 --> 00:10:14,733
and she's really enjoying the trip
294
00:10:14,733 --> 00:10:16,566
but he can't be present
295
00:10:17,183 --> 00:10:19,366
because he doesn't feel like he's
296
00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:21,333
a successful protector or provider
297
00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:23,900
and that little story that vignette
298
00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:24,933
which is the the
299
00:10:24,933 --> 00:10:26,183
how we get introduced to Jordan
300
00:10:26,183 --> 00:10:28,900
really resonated with me and I mean
301
00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,716
this is my experience in life too
302
00:10:30,733 --> 00:10:32,866
and I think it will resonate
303
00:10:32,866 --> 00:10:35,583
I think it resonates with most men as well
304
00:10:35,583 --> 00:10:37,866
and I think that that really illustrates what
305
00:10:37,866 --> 00:10:40,933
what I think that you're trying to say about
306
00:10:40,933 --> 00:10:42,466
the central theme of the book that
307
00:10:42,466 --> 00:10:44,900
that there's this gap between
308
00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:46,866
this ideal we hold in our heads about what
309
00:10:46,866 --> 00:10:49,416
what true masculinity is whatever
310
00:10:49,416 --> 00:10:49,616
what
311
00:10:49,616 --> 00:10:52,100
whatever we've absorbed from the culture about that and
312
00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:55,800
and and then there's a gap between what I am
313
00:10:56,416 --> 00:11:00,333
and that gap can be
314
00:11:00,333 --> 00:11:02,100
can really grow into something unhealthy
315
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:03,983
if we're not honest about it
316
00:11:03,983 --> 00:11:06,183
and if we're not willing to let people inspect it
317
00:11:06,183 --> 00:11:11,083
or we're not able to let people see it in a safe way
318
00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,300
it can really grow into something unhealthy and
319
00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,933
and that's kind of the nature of a lot what
320
00:11:15,933 --> 00:11:18,783
what what I've been calling a masculinity crisis
321
00:11:18,783 --> 00:11:19,783
but I think that's I
322
00:11:19,783 --> 00:11:23,033
I think you're getting to really the root of it there
323
00:11:24,066 --> 00:11:24,933
yeah so
324
00:11:24,933 --> 00:11:25,416
you know that
325
00:11:25,416 --> 00:11:26,816
that opening um
326
00:11:26,816 --> 00:11:28,066
with uh Joseph
327
00:11:28,066 --> 00:11:29,133
um it's Joseph
328
00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:30,016
I'm so sorry yes
329
00:11:30,016 --> 00:11:30,383
no no
330
00:11:30,383 --> 00:11:30,983
no quite alright
331
00:11:30,983 --> 00:11:31,866
quite alright um
332
00:11:31,866 --> 00:11:33,866
but I'm so glad you brought it up cause um
333
00:11:33,866 --> 00:11:34,266
you know that that's
334
00:11:34,266 --> 00:11:36,333
that's a scene that I actually haven't really
335
00:11:36,333 --> 00:11:38,100
had the chance to talk much about yet
336
00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:39,800
um and uh
337
00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:40,866
and it's a
338
00:11:40,866 --> 00:11:43,266
scene that it's one of my favorite scenes in the book
339
00:11:43,266 --> 00:11:45,183
um and like you said
340
00:11:45,183 --> 00:11:48,183
he's should be having the time of his life
341
00:11:48,183 --> 00:11:49,733
he and his wife are on this incredible
342
00:11:49,733 --> 00:11:51,500
cross country road trip they're
343
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,216
they're driving through Yellowstone
344
00:11:53,216 --> 00:11:54,316
they're seeing just
345
00:11:54,366 --> 00:11:57,316
all the amazing beauty that this country has to offer
346
00:11:57,333 --> 00:11:59,183
his wife is having a wonderful time
347
00:11:59,183 --> 00:12:00,666
she's looking out the window
348
00:12:00,666 --> 00:12:01,466
she's she's like
349
00:12:01,466 --> 00:12:02,933
telling him to look at all the beautiful
350
00:12:02,933 --> 00:12:03,933
things that they're seeing
351
00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:04,933
she's um
352
00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:06,300
you know excited to see all the animals
353
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,716
they're gonna see at Yellowstone National Park
354
00:12:08,783 --> 00:12:12,733
and he is spiraling inside
355
00:12:12,733 --> 00:12:14,500
because there's just a light
356
00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,833
rattle in the engine of his car
357
00:12:16,866 --> 00:12:18,516
and um
358
00:12:18,666 --> 00:12:19,816
as you know I think
359
00:12:19,816 --> 00:12:22,700
a lot of people have had experiences similar to this
360
00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:22,983
where like
361
00:12:22,983 --> 00:12:25,216
you know there's something going on with your car
362
00:12:25,216 --> 00:12:28,333
or maybe it's some like sound in your house that
363
00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:30,900
you know like it's not supposed to sound like that
364
00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,683
and you quickly go to
365
00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,700
what is the worst case scenario here
366
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,100
and so he goes from you know
367
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:38,333
the engine's running a little hot
368
00:12:38,333 --> 00:12:40,333
there's a little bit of a rattle um
369
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:42,266
to this sense of like
370
00:12:42,266 --> 00:12:44,133
we're going to be stranded and alone
371
00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:47,716
and what's underneath all of this is um
372
00:12:47,816 --> 00:12:50,183
she cannot know what is happening because if she knows
373
00:12:50,183 --> 00:12:51,133
then she will know the truth
374
00:12:51,133 --> 00:12:53,266
and the truth is I am insufficient
375
00:12:53,266 --> 00:12:56,266
I cannot keep her safe she needs someone who can
376
00:12:56,266 --> 00:12:57,066
keep her safe
377
00:12:57,066 --> 00:12:59,700
and I am not the man who is up to that job
378
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:02,466
and so that fear I think
379
00:13:02,466 --> 00:13:04,033
is something that
380
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,500
so many of us experience at some point in time
381
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:07,983
um the
382
00:13:07,983 --> 00:13:11,466
this fear that if we are really seen
383
00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:13,400
if we are really understood
384
00:13:13,583 --> 00:13:15,016
then people will know the truth
385
00:13:15,016 --> 00:13:17,533
and the truth is that we are deficient in some way
386
00:13:17,533 --> 00:13:20,316
and so he's he's going through that all the while
387
00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:21,733
um you know
388
00:13:21,733 --> 00:13:23,333
again she's having an amazing time he
389
00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:23,533
and
390
00:13:23,533 --> 00:13:26,533
he is missing out on having an amazing time with her
391
00:13:26,533 --> 00:13:29,133
because he is so fixated on his
392
00:13:29,133 --> 00:13:30,800
like image of his own you know
393
00:13:30,933 --> 00:13:33,566
uh this evidence of his own kind of inadequacy
394
00:13:34,616 --> 00:13:35,500
and um
395
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:36,216
and then yeah like
396
00:13:36,216 --> 00:13:36,900
like you said to
397
00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,766
to the point of kind of this
398
00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:39,583
you know the
399
00:13:39,583 --> 00:13:42,933
the the book does not try to convince you of many ideas
400
00:13:42,933 --> 00:13:46,133
it does not try to kind of um
401
00:13:46,133 --> 00:13:48,100
hit you over the head with kind of a
402
00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:49,933
a grand argument about kind of
403
00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:51,383
the state of masculinity in this country
404
00:13:51,383 --> 00:13:53,333
I'm much more interested in just like
405
00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,466
really intimately telling these four stories
406
00:13:55,466 --> 00:13:57,216
and letting the reader come away with
407
00:13:57,216 --> 00:13:58,800
whatever it is that they come away with
408
00:13:58,983 --> 00:14:01,366
but the one kind of
409
00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:04,016
idea that does really link these four
410
00:14:04,016 --> 00:14:06,533
and that I do think we all experience is
411
00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:09,333
is the sense of from the time we are so young
412
00:14:09,333 --> 00:14:12,266
we are inheriting an idea of what
413
00:14:12,266 --> 00:14:14,933
it means to be a man and what kind of
414
00:14:14,933 --> 00:14:18,583
an ideal version of a man is supposed to look like
415
00:14:18,583 --> 00:14:21,200
and at some point along the way
416
00:14:21,416 --> 00:14:25,016
we inevitably fail to live up to that
417
00:14:25,016 --> 00:14:27,383
um you can be the five year old on the playground
418
00:14:27,383 --> 00:14:30,066
who's getting picked on and who immediately knows
419
00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:31,683
I'm not like the other boys
420
00:14:31,733 --> 00:14:32,300
um and
421
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:34,616
and it has that lesson ingrained in you for
422
00:14:34,616 --> 00:14:36,166
for such a long young age
423
00:14:36,216 --> 00:14:39,216
or you can be someone who typifies every single ideal
424
00:14:39,216 --> 00:14:40,466
who um
425
00:14:40,466 --> 00:14:42,533
you know is the star athlete who is rich
426
00:14:42,533 --> 00:14:44,783
who is successful who um is
427
00:14:44,783 --> 00:14:46,216
is attractive who
428
00:14:46,216 --> 00:14:47,166
who has everything
429
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,400
but inevitably at some point in your life
430
00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:51,266
your circumstances are going to shift
431
00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:53,383
in a way where you are no longer
432
00:14:53,383 --> 00:14:54,666
kind of living up to that
433
00:14:54,666 --> 00:14:54,933
or
434
00:14:54,933 --> 00:14:57,616
you just realize that you've been chasing the standard
435
00:14:57,616 --> 00:14:59,300
and the standard only gets higher and higher
436
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:00,583
and higher the higher you go
437
00:15:00,583 --> 00:15:02,300
and you can never quite reach it
438
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:04,733
and so ultimately I think
439
00:15:04,733 --> 00:15:06,816
what kind of defines our relationship to masculinity
440
00:15:06,816 --> 00:15:10,333
is how we kind of navigate that failure
441
00:15:10,333 --> 00:15:12,700
I I think that there's a lot of messaging right now
442
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,200
that tells young men um
443
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:17,416
just if you just work harder
444
00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:19,383
if you just keep pressing forward
445
00:15:19,383 --> 00:15:20,933
if you just work on your body
446
00:15:20,933 --> 00:15:22,333
if you just work on your career
447
00:15:22,333 --> 00:15:24,200
if you just work on your charisma
448
00:15:24,383 --> 00:15:26,300
then you will bridge that gap
449
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,066
and your deficiencies will
450
00:15:29,066 --> 00:15:30,233
will be gone and you know
451
00:15:30,666 --> 00:15:32,466
I I think working on yourself in those ways is
452
00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:33,416
is wonderful you know
453
00:15:33,416 --> 00:15:34,733
I I try to do that all the time but I
454
00:15:35,216 --> 00:15:39,483
I do think that seeing that as kind of a path to
455
00:15:39,616 --> 00:15:41,700
you know it's a path to like
456
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,533
trying to bridge something that cannot
457
00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:44,866
really ever be bridged
458
00:15:44,866 --> 00:15:47,700
because that standard is always gonna be out of reach
459
00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:50,216
like anorexia exactly yes
460
00:15:50,216 --> 00:15:53,600
100% I haven't heard that comparison but um
461
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:55,616
that makes so much sense and
462
00:15:55,616 --> 00:15:56,416
and the
463
00:15:57,183 --> 00:15:57,666
both kind of
464
00:15:57,666 --> 00:15:59,100
the ideas that fuel anorexia
465
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:00,383
and the ideals that fuel
466
00:16:00,383 --> 00:16:02,600
a lot of what we're talking about um
467
00:16:02,666 --> 00:16:04,900
are just so prevalent online and and
468
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,316
and so easy for young people to access
469
00:16:07,466 --> 00:16:09,266
and it can really distort
470
00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,183
kind of your sense of yourself um
471
00:16:11,183 --> 00:16:12,216
basically with with this book
472
00:16:12,216 --> 00:16:13,016
what I wanted to do was
473
00:16:13,016 --> 00:16:14,700
kind of explore the ways that these guys
474
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,600
who are who are so different from one another
475
00:16:16,733 --> 00:16:19,016
um try to navigate that because I
476
00:16:19,016 --> 00:16:21,200
I think it is something that we will all
477
00:16:21,283 --> 00:16:23,333
at one point or another have to
478
00:16:23,333 --> 00:16:24,866
have to navigate ourselves all
479
00:16:24,866 --> 00:16:25,700
most of us have
480
00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:28,466
at some point already had to navigate it ourselves even
481
00:16:28,466 --> 00:16:30,100
even if we haven't really been conscious of it
482
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:31,633
it's just been something that we're
483
00:16:31,783 --> 00:16:33,366
something that we're inevitably doing
484
00:16:33,616 --> 00:16:35,016
you know you
485
00:16:35,016 --> 00:16:36,916
you have a young son yourself
486
00:16:37,266 --> 00:16:39,700
who was born while you were doing this um
487
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,616
how has this experience shaped
488
00:16:42,616 --> 00:16:45,066
how you think about him
489
00:16:45,066 --> 00:16:47,533
and his relationship to masculinity
490
00:16:47,533 --> 00:16:49,866
has it changed the way you think about this stuff
491
00:16:49,866 --> 00:16:51,683
or enhanced it in any way
492
00:16:51,983 --> 00:16:54,200
yeah you know um
493
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,416
so he's almost 3 years old um
494
00:16:56,416 --> 00:16:58,816
and so it's he's still
495
00:16:58,816 --> 00:17:00,533
he's still so young um
496
00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:04,633
and he's still in the very early stages of kind of
497
00:17:05,016 --> 00:17:07,616
learning some of these some of these lessons
498
00:17:07,616 --> 00:17:09,983
learning some of the ways in which he will experience
499
00:17:09,983 --> 00:17:11,600
certain pressures um
500
00:17:11,866 --> 00:17:13,716
as he as he grows older
501
00:17:14,983 --> 00:17:17,383
I will say that you know
502
00:17:17,383 --> 00:17:18,500
when he was born and again
503
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,266
he was born I was about halfway through this book um
504
00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:22,700
we did not know um
505
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,916
the sex until until the moment he was born and um
506
00:17:27,166 --> 00:17:28,300
you know the moment that the
507
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:29,616
the doctor said uh
508
00:17:29,616 --> 00:17:30,783
like he's here
509
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:32,416
I think the doctor's first words were
510
00:17:32,416 --> 00:17:34,066
he's so long uh
511
00:17:34,066 --> 00:17:36,283
cause he was very tall um
512
00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:37,583
and uh
513
00:17:37,583 --> 00:17:39,783
but hearing that word he um
514
00:17:39,783 --> 00:17:40,416
I you know
515
00:17:40,416 --> 00:17:41,933
felt this incredible like excitement
516
00:17:41,933 --> 00:17:44,383
pride but also a sense of weight
517
00:17:44,383 --> 00:17:46,983
like an immediate sense of weight um
518
00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,216
a weight that I can't really fully even like
519
00:17:49,216 --> 00:17:50,500
wrap my mind around or
520
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,500
or put much in the way of words to just yet
521
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:53,733
but like
522
00:17:53,733 --> 00:17:57,100
the sense of a particular kind of responsibility that
523
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:58,783
that I would have um
524
00:17:58,783 --> 00:18:00,900
and maybe I would it would have felt the exact same if
525
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,300
if if he um
526
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,533
you know if she had said she's so long um at
527
00:18:04,533 --> 00:18:06,633
at that moment but um
528
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,466
but I I did kind of feel that and
529
00:18:09,466 --> 00:18:10,183
and you know
530
00:18:10,183 --> 00:18:11,016
along the way it
531
00:18:11,016 --> 00:18:12,883
it has been um
532
00:18:13,733 --> 00:18:14,100
you know I
533
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,483
I think what what I found myself thinking is like
534
00:18:18,383 --> 00:18:20,383
I cannot fully
535
00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:22,100
shield him from
536
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,900
all of these pressures that we are talking about
537
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,066
like the these
538
00:18:25,066 --> 00:18:28,416
these pressures are going to be a part of his life
539
00:18:28,416 --> 00:18:31,083
um what I can do is make
540
00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:32,866
do everything I can to make kind of
541
00:18:32,866 --> 00:18:34,300
our relationship and
542
00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:36,700
and our home a place where he feels safe to be
543
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:38,700
whoever he is um
544
00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,766
and where he feels kind of invited into um
545
00:18:42,866 --> 00:18:44,800
kind of the fullest version of himself
546
00:18:45,333 --> 00:18:47,033
um but uh
547
00:18:48,183 --> 00:18:50,100
you know he will inevitably be shaped by
548
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:51,100
by all of these kind of
549
00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:52,900
cultural expectations that we have
550
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,566
he will inevitably be shaped in some ways by like
551
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,133
the subconscious ways
552
00:18:57,133 --> 00:18:59,016
in which I've been impacted by all of this
553
00:18:59,016 --> 00:18:59,383
you know I'm
554
00:18:59,383 --> 00:19:02,500
I'm my own person who has tried to kind of
555
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,016
navigate that gap that that we are talking about and
556
00:19:05,016 --> 00:19:05,783
and you know
557
00:19:05,783 --> 00:19:08,133
as much as I try to do it in the healthiest way I can
558
00:19:08,133 --> 00:19:11,983
I know sometimes it's not always healthy and um
559
00:19:11,983 --> 00:19:12,416
you know the
560
00:19:12,416 --> 00:19:14,416
the ways in which I wrestle with my own kind of
561
00:19:14,416 --> 00:19:15,300
insecurities my
562
00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,100
my own kind of um
563
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,500
you know failures um
564
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:21,483
will will inevitably impact him in some way or another
565
00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:23,183
um and so
566
00:19:23,183 --> 00:19:24,333
uh yeah
567
00:19:24,333 --> 00:19:25,500
all of that to say like
568
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:26,616
these ideas are just kind of
569
00:19:26,616 --> 00:19:28,933
swimming in my mind all the time
570
00:19:28,933 --> 00:19:31,816
um and the only thing I know to do at this point
571
00:19:31,816 --> 00:19:32,466
and again like parenting a
572
00:19:33,616 --> 00:19:34,733
a two and a/2 year old is
573
00:19:34,733 --> 00:19:35,933
is very very different I
574
00:19:35,933 --> 00:19:37,333
I know from parenting a
575
00:19:37,333 --> 00:19:40,583
a 7 year old or a 10 year old or a 15 year old um
576
00:19:40,583 --> 00:19:42,400
but at this point it's just been about like
577
00:19:42,616 --> 00:19:44,300
wanting to make sure that he feels like
578
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,183
he can be fully himself um
579
00:19:46,183 --> 00:19:46,333
with with
580
00:19:46,333 --> 00:19:48,133
with me and with us in in
581
00:19:48,133 --> 00:19:49,033
in our home
582
00:19:49,933 --> 00:19:50,983
yeah for me I
583
00:19:50,983 --> 00:19:53,500
I had that I had a similar experience to you now
584
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:58,283
we did know the sex of our boy before he came out
585
00:19:58,333 --> 00:20:02,416
and our girl too but it
586
00:20:02,416 --> 00:20:04,133
that that weight that you're talking about
587
00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:07,083
is totally different and it's not
588
00:20:07,783 --> 00:20:09,100
it's different it's not like
589
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,116
it's there for the boy and not for the girl
590
00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:13,333
it is different and for the girl it's
591
00:20:13,333 --> 00:20:17,266
it's it's more about keeping her safe and and and
592
00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:19,366
and those sorts of things for the boy
593
00:20:19,416 --> 00:20:25,366
for me it was this experience that
594
00:20:25,983 --> 00:20:27,066
and actually I mean I
595
00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:28,816
I was able to form it a little bit better
596
00:20:28,816 --> 00:20:31,400
once he got older but it's that
597
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:37,800
masculinity is so much different now
598
00:20:37,983 --> 00:20:40,166
than it was when I was young
599
00:20:40,783 --> 00:20:43,066
my paradigm my operating system
600
00:20:43,066 --> 00:20:46,283
so to speak is not gonna work for him
601
00:20:46,816 --> 00:20:52,600
and it's my job to make sure that he has the skills
602
00:20:52,816 --> 00:20:57,183
and capabilities to make his way in the world
603
00:20:57,183 --> 00:21:00,233
and be an excellent man and
604
00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:03,816
if even if that's what I am
605
00:21:03,816 --> 00:21:05,816
what got me to where I am
606
00:21:05,816 --> 00:21:08,100
isn't gonna get him where he needs to be
607
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,016
and I need to be more intentional about it
608
00:21:10,016 --> 00:21:11,100
I need to figure it out
609
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,400
and I don't know the answer right now
610
00:21:13,983 --> 00:21:16,016
and the culture isn't gonna help me all
611
00:21:16,016 --> 00:21:18,500
all it it used to be the case that
612
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:22,333
that we had rights of passage and we had institutions
613
00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:24,133
we would be going to church and
614
00:21:24,133 --> 00:21:25,733
you know that would help in some way
615
00:21:25,733 --> 00:21:28,200
it would also hurt in a lot of ways and
616
00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,216
and that means there's a there's an opportunity there
617
00:21:31,216 --> 00:21:32,133
and there's a problem there
618
00:21:32,133 --> 00:21:34,916
the problem is that that those things are gone
619
00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:37,900
the opportunity is we get to remake them
620
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:40,983
in the form that we want them to be
621
00:21:40,983 --> 00:21:42,233
and that's great
622
00:21:42,766 --> 00:21:44,216
but it means you have to do it
623
00:21:44,216 --> 00:21:46,416
or else you're just getting nothing and
624
00:21:46,416 --> 00:21:48,116
and that was
625
00:21:48,533 --> 00:21:52,700
that is how I vocalized the weight that you described
626
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,466
that I felt when my son was born
627
00:21:54,466 --> 00:21:56,266
that's what I felt and I
628
00:21:56,266 --> 00:21:58,733
I wasn't able to put words to it for years
629
00:21:58,733 --> 00:21:59,383
and years and years
630
00:21:59,383 --> 00:22:01,166
but that's how I put words to it now
631
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:02,500
yeah that
632
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,216
that's such a great um yeah
633
00:22:05,216 --> 00:22:05,383
I I
634
00:22:05,383 --> 00:22:06,933
I I really appreciate you
635
00:22:06,933 --> 00:22:08,266
you sharing all of that cause like I
636
00:22:08,266 --> 00:22:10,716
I think that um
637
00:22:12,016 --> 00:22:12,816
like you said I
638
00:22:12,816 --> 00:22:14,100
I think you know what
639
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:15,816
one of the things that comes up a lot in
640
00:22:15,816 --> 00:22:18,183
in this book is how men respond to certain structures
641
00:22:18,183 --> 00:22:19,783
how we respond to like
642
00:22:19,783 --> 00:22:21,783
clear sets of expectations and
643
00:22:21,783 --> 00:22:24,483
and being invited into something that um
644
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:25,066
you know where
645
00:22:25,066 --> 00:22:26,733
where there's kind of a clear purpose and we
646
00:22:26,733 --> 00:22:28,183
we understand what it is
647
00:22:28,183 --> 00:22:31,766
we understand why we're doing it and um
648
00:22:32,866 --> 00:22:33,183
you know
649
00:22:33,183 --> 00:22:35,133
what you mentioned about kind of rites of passage or
650
00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:38,083
like structures that kind of give uh
651
00:22:38,783 --> 00:22:39,933
you know serve as like
652
00:22:39,933 --> 00:22:41,333
kind of entry points into
653
00:22:41,333 --> 00:22:43,183
into a next phase of life that
654
00:22:43,183 --> 00:22:44,783
that serve as like kind of um
655
00:22:44,783 --> 00:22:46,733
helping you make that transition in
656
00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:48,666
in adolescence from being someone who
657
00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:49,900
who is um
658
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,333
you've seen largely as a boy into
659
00:22:51,333 --> 00:22:52,666
to being someone who who is
660
00:22:52,666 --> 00:22:55,383
who's growing into a man um I
661
00:22:55,383 --> 00:22:58,133
I think that like uh you're
662
00:22:58,133 --> 00:22:58,700
you're right
663
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,300
that our culture is kind of lacking a lot of those
664
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:01,666
um I
665
00:23:01,666 --> 00:23:03,533
I'm not entirely sure how to
666
00:23:03,533 --> 00:23:04,783
how to kind of reconstitute some
667
00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:05,466
some of them but I
668
00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,866
I do think that they I do think that they matter
669
00:23:08,866 --> 00:23:12,533
cause I I think especially that phase of life
670
00:23:12,533 --> 00:23:13,383
I mean um
671
00:23:13,383 --> 00:23:15,433
at adolescence I I try to
672
00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:17,583
you know I think it can be hard
673
00:23:17,583 --> 00:23:18,866
sometimes for grown men
674
00:23:18,866 --> 00:23:21,533
to remember what it is like to be a teenage boy
675
00:23:21,533 --> 00:23:23,466
um and I
676
00:23:23,466 --> 00:23:24,783
I have hard
677
00:23:24,783 --> 00:23:28,033
a hard time kind of remembering what it was like
678
00:23:28,066 --> 00:23:28,733
um and I
679
00:23:28,733 --> 00:23:31,066
I found myself thinking um
680
00:23:31,066 --> 00:23:33,516
trying to really sink back into
681
00:23:33,616 --> 00:23:35,016
into that experience and
682
00:23:35,016 --> 00:23:36,583
and I think like you know
683
00:23:36,583 --> 00:23:38,916
when I was a teenager um
684
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:40,033
you know I'm
685
00:23:40,033 --> 00:23:41,733
I'm very I'm really tall
686
00:23:41,733 --> 00:23:43,066
I'm I'm 6 5 um
687
00:23:43,066 --> 00:23:45,016
so I'm me too like always OK OK
688
00:23:45,016 --> 00:23:45,733
yeah so like
689
00:23:45,733 --> 00:23:48,216
it's a particular kind of experience when you're
690
00:23:48,216 --> 00:23:50,066
when you are in a body like that
691
00:23:50,066 --> 00:23:52,133
that's kind of looming over everyone else
692
00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:54,100
and I was clumsy as a result yeah
693
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:55,900
having grown so fast and yeah
694
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:56,816
yeah my
695
00:23:56,816 --> 00:23:58,700
my boy experiences the same thing
696
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,733
and it's and it's difficult because
697
00:24:00,733 --> 00:24:02,766
and you're gonna experience the same thing
698
00:24:03,183 --> 00:24:05,033
they always think he's older than he is
699
00:24:05,266 --> 00:24:07,933
and so they expect him to act differently
700
00:24:07,933 --> 00:24:08,183
they're like
701
00:24:08,183 --> 00:24:11,966
why is your 9 year old acting like a 6 year old
702
00:24:12,583 --> 00:24:12,833
yeah
703
00:24:13,016 --> 00:24:14,916
6:06 yeah
704
00:24:15,133 --> 00:24:15,900
it's yeah my
705
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,783
my son physically he's so much like me um
706
00:24:18,783 --> 00:24:21,000
he's very very tall uh
707
00:24:21,183 --> 00:24:22,733
but just kind of clumsy like
708
00:24:22,733 --> 00:24:24,400
you know it took him like
709
00:24:24,466 --> 00:24:24,933
I think
710
00:24:24,933 --> 00:24:26,816
babies are supposed to start rolling over when they're
711
00:24:26,816 --> 00:24:27,533
like three months
712
00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:30,566
he was he was like nine months before he rolled over uh
713
00:24:31,066 --> 00:24:32,300
like he never crawled
714
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,700
there's so much body to learn to maneuver like
715
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:34,983
like you know
716
00:24:34,983 --> 00:24:38,666
it's like driving a semi truck versus a Miata exactly
717
00:24:38,666 --> 00:24:40,200
exactly um
718
00:24:40,216 --> 00:24:40,616
but you know
719
00:24:40,616 --> 00:24:41,700
back back to kind of the
720
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:42,800
the point of like in adolescence
721
00:24:43,816 --> 00:24:45,616
like what what I remember is like
722
00:24:45,616 --> 00:24:52,066
you are growing into a feeling of like you
723
00:24:52,066 --> 00:24:53,100
you all of a sudden there's like
724
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,533
there's just a power there is a
725
00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:57,466
a power that comes with being in uh
726
00:24:57,466 --> 00:25:00,416
a male body particularly a certain kind of male body
727
00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:02,916
what one that's kind of larger than other people yeah
728
00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,333
there's just an intrinsic power that comes with that
729
00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:08,100
and like you are growing into that power very
730
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,500
very quickly when you are uh 13
731
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:11,100
14 15
732
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,433
16 17 years old
733
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,966
um and it can feel intoxicating
734
00:25:16,183 --> 00:25:18,133
um it can feel really
735
00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:19,466
really thrilling um
736
00:25:19,466 --> 00:25:20,300
to all of a sudden
737
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:23,216
be bigger than most of the people who are around you
738
00:25:23,216 --> 00:25:24,900
and and everything that kind of comes with that
739
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:26,683
the expectations that come with that
740
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,816
um but it can also feel terrifying
741
00:25:28,816 --> 00:25:30,500
like terrifying um
742
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,466
you know and I remember like being around
743
00:25:33,466 --> 00:25:35,533
you know just around a lot of I
744
00:25:35,533 --> 00:25:39,816
I knew a lot of boys who did bad stuff
745
00:25:39,816 --> 00:25:41,466
who inflicted real harm on
746
00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:43,100
on other people um
747
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:45,700
and sometimes they were boys who I was really close to
748
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:46,966
and who um
749
00:25:47,183 --> 00:25:47,583
you know I
750
00:25:47,583 --> 00:25:49,983
I saw a lot of like goodness and in a lot of other ways
751
00:25:49,983 --> 00:25:51,383
but like um
752
00:25:51,383 --> 00:25:52,816
there's something about that that
753
00:25:52,816 --> 00:25:54,916
that I think really kind of uh
754
00:25:56,133 --> 00:25:56,500
you there
755
00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:58,266
there's just so much swimming in my head
756
00:25:58,266 --> 00:25:59,533
at that period of time where like
757
00:25:59,533 --> 00:26:01,700
you're seeing the destructive
758
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,166
power that kind of um
759
00:26:04,866 --> 00:26:05,983
you know that the people who
760
00:26:05,983 --> 00:26:08,533
who have bodies like yours can
761
00:26:08,533 --> 00:26:09,333
can uh
762
00:26:09,466 --> 00:26:10,183
can have you're
763
00:26:10,183 --> 00:26:11,583
and you're also kind of
764
00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:14,100
intoxicated by the ways in which you suddenly have
765
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,000
like access to so much that um
766
00:26:17,016 --> 00:26:17,133
that
767
00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:19,300
that you didn't have access to when you were younger
768
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,316
and so I I do think that like
769
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:28,816
whatever we can do to find ways to help teenage boys to
770
00:26:28,816 --> 00:26:29,766
kind of uh
771
00:26:30,383 --> 00:26:31,983
navigate that that time of life
772
00:26:31,983 --> 00:26:32,133
like
773
00:26:32,133 --> 00:26:35,383
understand all that they're going to be going through
774
00:26:35,383 --> 00:26:35,933
I mean there
775
00:26:35,933 --> 00:26:38,016
you know that parallels to um
776
00:26:38,016 --> 00:26:39,533
adolescent girls that there's obviously
777
00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:42,933
like a very clear right of passage that
778
00:26:42,933 --> 00:26:43,933
that happens for them that
779
00:26:43,933 --> 00:26:45,783
that's kind of a distinction between kind of
780
00:26:45,783 --> 00:26:46,466
a girlhood yeah
781
00:26:46,466 --> 00:26:47,666
it's a physical thing yeah yes
782
00:26:47,666 --> 00:26:49,066
yes and I
783
00:26:49,066 --> 00:26:49,900
I I spoke
784
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:50,983
when working on this book I
785
00:26:50,983 --> 00:26:54,100
I talked to a a woman journalist friend who um
786
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,733
you know talked about that specifically and was like I
787
00:26:55,733 --> 00:26:58,516
I I feel like um
788
00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:00,266
you know girls still kind of like just
789
00:27:00,266 --> 00:27:00,416
that
790
00:27:00,416 --> 00:27:02,583
there's just this physical change of having a period
791
00:27:02,583 --> 00:27:03,833
that is um
792
00:27:04,266 --> 00:27:05,066
uh
793
00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,383
gives them kind of a a passageway into
794
00:27:08,383 --> 00:27:10,983
into womanhood that's that boys are
795
00:27:10,983 --> 00:27:12,433
are kind of lacking um
796
00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:13,866
and so I but I
797
00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:15,266
I think that that stuff is important
798
00:27:15,266 --> 00:27:19,216
finding ways to kind of help boys to um
799
00:27:19,216 --> 00:27:22,066
navigate a time in your life that can feel so chaotic
800
00:27:22,066 --> 00:27:22,500
um and
801
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,283
and where you can feel so unmoored I
802
00:27:25,933 --> 00:27:27,216
it's helpful I don't know what the answer is
803
00:27:27,216 --> 00:27:27,616
but I I
804
00:27:27,616 --> 00:27:28,216
I love that
805
00:27:28,216 --> 00:27:29,616
it's something that you're thinking a lot about
806
00:27:29,616 --> 00:27:32,133
I'll tell you something that helps and
807
00:27:32,133 --> 00:27:33,500
and one of the things that
808
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,866
that I've noticed about my boy's experience is
809
00:27:36,866 --> 00:27:39,200
I can watch him go through things
810
00:27:39,483 --> 00:27:43,600
and that will uncover memories for me that I didn't
811
00:27:43,783 --> 00:27:44,900
wouldn't have been able to produce
812
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,716
if I hadn't been prompted by seeing him
813
00:27:47,933 --> 00:27:49,833
struggle with the same stuff
814
00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:51,666
and when I see that I
815
00:27:51,666 --> 00:27:54,183
I remember back when I struggled with the same stuff
816
00:27:54,183 --> 00:27:55,383
and how I thought about it
817
00:27:55,383 --> 00:27:56,900
and how I wished I thought about it
818
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:58,933
and all of that stuff and so
819
00:27:58,933 --> 00:28:00,466
all of that's to say
820
00:28:00,583 --> 00:28:03,183
that this is one of the reasons that
821
00:28:03,183 --> 00:28:05,500
male role models are so important
822
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:06,183
in the in
823
00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,266
in the in
824
00:28:07,266 --> 00:28:09,016
in the life of young boys and
825
00:28:09,016 --> 00:28:10,783
and especially adolescent boys
826
00:28:10,783 --> 00:28:12,216
because that is such a difficult
827
00:28:12,216 --> 00:28:14,500
unbelievably hard time of life it
828
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:15,866
it is it's
829
00:28:15,866 --> 00:28:17,583
for all the reasons that you talked about
830
00:28:17,583 --> 00:28:20,333
and he really needs someone there
831
00:28:20,333 --> 00:28:21,816
who's been through that maybe
832
00:28:21,816 --> 00:28:23,500
or even more than other people
833
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:25,400
and who can you know
834
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:26,183
say yeah
835
00:28:26,183 --> 00:28:27,383
this is normal and it's okay
836
00:28:27,383 --> 00:28:30,333
and just as just as a a
837
00:28:30,333 --> 00:28:32,900
a girl having her first period
838
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:35,900
needs a woman to help her learn how to deal with that
839
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,633
just in a physical way I don't think anybody
840
00:28:39,066 --> 00:28:41,066
like I I
841
00:28:41,066 --> 00:28:41,666
don't think anybody
842
00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,616
would expect a father to come and do that or
843
00:28:43,616 --> 00:28:46,000
or or think that a father could do that adequately
844
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:50,683
and yet we don't really necessarily culturally put the
845
00:28:50,983 --> 00:28:51,733
put that on us
846
00:28:51,733 --> 00:28:53,900
on men to make sure that they're there for the
847
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:57,216
for the boys in the same in the same way and
848
00:28:57,216 --> 00:28:58,950
but it really does help like
849
00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:02,066
you kind of get access to hidden knowledge
850
00:29:02,066 --> 00:29:03,816
or experiences that you don't remember
851
00:29:03,816 --> 00:29:05,333
you had um
852
00:29:05,333 --> 00:29:07,583
as your boy experiences those things
853
00:29:07,583 --> 00:29:10,766
you kind of get to experience them through him
854
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,700
yeah trip yeah
855
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,383
I I think
856
00:29:14,383 --> 00:29:15,133
you know to your point there
857
00:29:15,133 --> 00:29:16,683
there's just something I mean
858
00:29:17,016 --> 00:29:19,300
being able to empathize with another person is just
859
00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:20,666
enormously helpful I mean
860
00:29:20,666 --> 00:29:22,533
like having someone who can see and understand
861
00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:24,300
your experience is enormously helpful
862
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,800
and it is just a fact that uh
863
00:29:27,816 --> 00:29:31,983
certain experiences are are kind of uh
864
00:29:31,983 --> 00:29:34,616
unique to your sex or your gender and
865
00:29:34,616 --> 00:29:37,066
and certain experiences like
866
00:29:37,066 --> 00:29:39,500
when you can have some guidance
867
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,866
from someone who knows what that is like
868
00:29:41,866 --> 00:29:44,533
um there's going to be something about that
869
00:29:44,533 --> 00:29:46,616
that that is enormously helpful to you
870
00:29:46,616 --> 00:29:47,833
um and uh
871
00:29:48,066 --> 00:29:48,383
you know that
872
00:29:48,383 --> 00:29:50,600
that's not to say that um
873
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,783
men can't find ways to be
874
00:29:52,783 --> 00:29:54,416
to be there for um
875
00:29:54,416 --> 00:29:55,783
you know their daughters who
876
00:29:55,783 --> 00:29:57,100
who are going through kind of
877
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:58,983
physical and other changes that um
878
00:29:58,983 --> 00:30:00,100
that those men haven't experienced or
879
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,416
or that women can't do the same with
880
00:30:01,416 --> 00:30:02,900
with their sons or uh
881
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:03,583
you know other
882
00:30:03,583 --> 00:30:05,383
other children in in their lives um
883
00:30:05,383 --> 00:30:08,933
but it it is just simply like there
884
00:30:08,933 --> 00:30:11,466
there will be things that uh
885
00:30:11,466 --> 00:30:11,733
you know I
886
00:30:11,733 --> 00:30:14,033
I know that I experience things that like
887
00:30:14,266 --> 00:30:16,266
I wanted to talk to my dad about because I
888
00:30:16,266 --> 00:30:17,300
I knew that like
889
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,133
he was much more likely to have understood
890
00:30:19,133 --> 00:30:20,316
that experience than
891
00:30:20,333 --> 00:30:22,133
than my mom and and and
892
00:30:22,133 --> 00:30:23,683
and I I think that
893
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:24,500
you know it
894
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:25,900
the onus has to be on
895
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,066
on us as fathers to make sure that we are there in
896
00:30:29,066 --> 00:30:29,616
in that way
897
00:30:29,616 --> 00:30:31,466
to make sure that we are looking for those moments
898
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:33,666
where there are
899
00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:34,700
those points of connection
900
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,116
where we have been through that thing that's uh
901
00:30:37,383 --> 00:30:37,900
you know that
902
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:38,466
that a a
903
00:30:38,466 --> 00:30:39,583
a boy is going through and
904
00:30:39,583 --> 00:30:40,633
and we can kind of
905
00:30:40,633 --> 00:30:41,533
you know find ways to
906
00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:43,066
to really uh
907
00:30:43,066 --> 00:30:44,216
signal that we're we're
908
00:30:44,216 --> 00:30:46,300
we're there and able to talk about it and understand
909
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:47,633
yeah yeah
910
00:30:47,983 --> 00:30:50,133
what did you learn in in this
911
00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:51,383
in the experience of writing this book
912
00:30:51,383 --> 00:30:52,966
what did you learn about the role
913
00:30:53,016 --> 00:30:55,833
of these men's own parents
914
00:30:56,183 --> 00:30:58,166
in crafting who they became
915
00:30:58,183 --> 00:30:58,466
it like
916
00:30:58,466 --> 00:31:00,533
in making their struggles harder or easier
917
00:31:00,533 --> 00:31:02,583
or successes greater or lesser
918
00:31:02,583 --> 00:31:06,466
or how did how did their parents impact that yeah
919
00:31:06,466 --> 00:31:06,983
um you know
920
00:31:06,983 --> 00:31:11,066
their fathers are are so different from one another um
921
00:31:11,066 --> 00:31:12,216
you know one Joseph
922
00:31:12,216 --> 00:31:14,716
who we talked about earlier um
923
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,616
the the one who's having the bit
924
00:31:16,616 --> 00:31:18,933
of a breakdown on the beautiful cross country road trip
925
00:31:18,933 --> 00:31:21,166
his father is um
926
00:31:22,183 --> 00:31:23,733
really abusive to Joseph's mother
927
00:31:23,733 --> 00:31:24,616
um never
928
00:31:24,616 --> 00:31:26,166
never abusive to Joseph himself
929
00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:28,733
but he grows up in a home where he watches
930
00:31:28,733 --> 00:31:32,500
he watches violence unfolding often and um
931
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:32,816
you know it
932
00:31:32,816 --> 00:31:34,766
it fills him with a you know
933
00:31:34,883 --> 00:31:36,866
pretty significant kind of loathing for
934
00:31:36,866 --> 00:31:38,933
for his father over time and he
935
00:31:38,933 --> 00:31:40,016
yeah um he
936
00:31:40,016 --> 00:31:42,083
he learns a lot really
937
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:45,216
he he's a bit adrift at times
938
00:31:45,216 --> 00:31:47,583
because he does not have a real
939
00:31:47,583 --> 00:31:50,233
strong model for who he wants to be himself
940
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:50,900
um he
941
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:52,216
and he's kind of seeking that in
942
00:31:52,216 --> 00:31:53,866
in other men in his life as he's in
943
00:31:53,866 --> 00:31:56,016
in early adulthood because um
944
00:31:56,016 --> 00:31:57,666
his father failed his mother in such
945
00:31:57,666 --> 00:31:59,333
such critical ways um
946
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,300
you know another one
947
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:01,516
um Gideon
948
00:32:01,533 --> 00:32:03,466
who is kind of a a uh
949
00:32:03,466 --> 00:32:05,183
typifies every masculine ideal
950
00:32:05,183 --> 00:32:08,133
like the baseball star West Point graduate tall
951
00:32:08,133 --> 00:32:09,433
smart handsome everything
952
00:32:09,816 --> 00:32:11,083
he um
953
00:32:11,733 --> 00:32:13,500
has a loving relationship to his father
954
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,466
but also had the sense that he was like
955
00:32:15,466 --> 00:32:17,333
kind of like a trophy in his family
956
00:32:17,333 --> 00:32:18,133
that he was
957
00:32:18,133 --> 00:32:19,866
because he was so good at all of these things
958
00:32:19,866 --> 00:32:21,983
because he was so gifted um
959
00:32:21,983 --> 00:32:23,666
he kind of internalized that
960
00:32:23,666 --> 00:32:26,616
like this is how I have worth in the world is by being
961
00:32:26,616 --> 00:32:28,483
excelling at all of these things
962
00:32:28,533 --> 00:32:32,133
um and I think he still
963
00:32:32,133 --> 00:32:32,616
to this day
964
00:32:32,616 --> 00:32:35,100
would say that his parents loved him tremendously
965
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,800
and were great in many ways but um
966
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:39,816
it was hard for him to kind of trust
967
00:32:39,816 --> 00:32:42,916
kind of his intrinsic I guess worth um
968
00:32:42,933 --> 00:32:44,216
and in part for kind of
969
00:32:44,216 --> 00:32:47,633
the ways that he was kind of reinforced as a kid um
970
00:32:47,816 --> 00:32:50,666
you know another Ryan is
971
00:32:50,666 --> 00:32:51,733
is someone who is
972
00:32:51,733 --> 00:32:54,733
his father is kind of your stereotypical like tough
973
00:32:54,733 --> 00:32:57,033
like fighter like someone who's
974
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,200
he'd been a boxer um
975
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:03,716
and Ryan gets picked on as a kid and his dad is um
976
00:33:04,183 --> 00:33:06,133
you immediately tries to teach him how to fight
977
00:33:06,133 --> 00:33:07,433
um and I
978
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,383
that scene is incredible and I remember I like
979
00:33:10,383 --> 00:33:12,716
I'm reading this scene and thinking
980
00:33:12,983 --> 00:33:14,566
that's exactly what I would do
981
00:33:14,816 --> 00:33:16,833
hmm if as the dad
982
00:33:17,183 --> 00:33:19,466
if I was that dad I would do that exact same alright
983
00:33:19,466 --> 00:33:19,866
you know that
984
00:33:19,866 --> 00:33:20,616
you know we're not
985
00:33:20,616 --> 00:33:22,300
we're not gonna let that happen again
986
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,466
and then seeing that experience through Ryan's eyes
987
00:33:25,466 --> 00:33:26,900
such a beautiful it's
988
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:28,300
it's it's really
989
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:30,100
really a great story well
990
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:31,133
thank you but what
991
00:33:31,133 --> 00:33:33,066
what's so fascinating about it is like in the moment
992
00:33:33,066 --> 00:33:34,133
so Ryan doesn't want that
993
00:33:34,133 --> 00:33:35,733
Ryan wants his dad to comfort him to
994
00:33:35,733 --> 00:33:37,416
to hold him to care for him
995
00:33:37,416 --> 00:33:39,733
but then what happens is Ryan continues getting bullied
996
00:33:39,733 --> 00:33:41,933
he he doesn't really ever learn to fight back
997
00:33:41,933 --> 00:33:45,933
until he is in college and we meet him as a young man
998
00:33:45,933 --> 00:33:47,733
and on the night when he snaps
999
00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:51,583
and he beats somebody up and he finds oh
1000
00:33:51,583 --> 00:33:53,583
I actually really like doing this
1001
00:33:53,583 --> 00:33:55,300
and he likes it in a way that is not really
1002
00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:56,466
purely out of self defense
1003
00:33:56,466 --> 00:33:57,833
he likes it in a way that's uh
1004
00:33:58,133 --> 00:33:59,416
you know quite destructive
1005
00:33:59,416 --> 00:34:01,400
um but he uh
1006
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:03,066
later like in
1007
00:34:03,066 --> 00:34:03,983
in early adulthood
1008
00:34:03,983 --> 00:34:06,783
like kind of is like bragging to his dad that his dad
1009
00:34:06,783 --> 00:34:08,816
who had kind of put these boxing gloves on
1010
00:34:08,816 --> 00:34:10,333
on his fist when he was a little boy
1011
00:34:10,333 --> 00:34:12,666
and tried to teach him how to fight and uh
1012
00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:14,500
he's trying to brag to his dad like hey
1013
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:15,100
like I you know
1014
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:16,416
I've been getting into some fights lately
1015
00:34:16,416 --> 00:34:18,200
like you should see what I'm doing to these guys
1016
00:34:18,216 --> 00:34:19,500
and his dad
1017
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,800
who is now encountering his son as a grown man is like
1018
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:24,866
what are you doing why are you so stupid
1019
00:34:24,866 --> 00:34:26,766
why would you be getting into these fights
1020
00:34:26,983 --> 00:34:27,866
and Ryan it like
1021
00:34:27,866 --> 00:34:29,700
does not compute in Ryan's brain
1022
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:31,816
because all he remembers is being this little boy
1023
00:34:31,816 --> 00:34:33,300
who his dad was uh
1024
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:34,733
was trying to um
1025
00:34:34,733 --> 00:34:37,033
to teach how to fight and so um
1026
00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:39,500
you know I think it's just a case where like
1027
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,683
what one thing about fatherhood is that like
1028
00:34:42,816 --> 00:34:45,983
every father brings to the table their own stuff off
1029
00:34:45,983 --> 00:34:48,733
their own insecurities their own um
1030
00:34:48,733 --> 00:34:49,716
kind of uh
1031
00:34:49,816 --> 00:34:52,300
feelings that they're kind of projecting onto their kid
1032
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,333
and I don't know exactly what was going through
1033
00:34:54,333 --> 00:34:56,416
through Ryan's father's mind at that moment
1034
00:34:56,416 --> 00:34:57,866
when he's trying to teach him how to fight
1035
00:34:57,866 --> 00:35:00,666
but like it was a moment where he felt like
1036
00:35:00,666 --> 00:35:02,700
I need to teach my boy how to fight back
1037
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:03,700
and then later when
1038
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,783
learning that his boy has grown into a man
1039
00:35:05,783 --> 00:35:07,883
who does fight back uh
1040
00:35:08,183 --> 00:35:10,133
he he goes to a place that a lot of parents go
1041
00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:11,700
which is like you shouldn't be hitting people
1042
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:13,400
that's bad yeah
1043
00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:14,700
and what a mix and I
1044
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:17,416
I thought another little aspect of that story that
1045
00:35:17,416 --> 00:35:19,466
I mean it's just this tiny little vignette and
1046
00:35:19,466 --> 00:35:22,566
and yet it it was so um
1047
00:35:23,216 --> 00:35:24,133
uh it
1048
00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:25,383
it it's really
1049
00:35:25,383 --> 00:35:26,966
it was really impactful to me
1050
00:35:27,016 --> 00:35:29,383
which is you kind of get into the
1051
00:35:29,383 --> 00:35:31,433
the mind of the father for a moment
1052
00:35:31,616 --> 00:35:37,133
where the father is kind of teaching the son to fight
1053
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:41,066
not so that not just so that he'll be protected yeah
1054
00:35:41,066 --> 00:35:44,766
but also because the father feels a little bit of shame
1055
00:35:45,616 --> 00:35:47,316
that his son got beat up
1056
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:50,666
yeah at least that's how Ryan kind of took it yeah
1057
00:35:50,666 --> 00:35:52,333
at least that's how he felt about it
1058
00:35:52,333 --> 00:35:53,733
Ryan doesn't know but that's yeah
1059
00:35:53,733 --> 00:35:55,766
yeah um
1060
00:35:55,866 --> 00:35:57,300
and I I do
1061
00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:58,683
I think that that's like
1062
00:35:59,533 --> 00:36:01,983
it's such a natural impulse um
1063
00:36:01,983 --> 00:36:06,283
for any parent to internalize like uh
1064
00:36:06,816 --> 00:36:09,216
any any struggle that your kid might have
1065
00:36:09,216 --> 00:36:11,066
is somehow a reflection on you in
1066
00:36:11,066 --> 00:36:12,733
in a negative way and like
1067
00:36:12,733 --> 00:36:16,666
the things that we value and the things that feel like
1068
00:36:16,666 --> 00:36:18,333
embarrassing to us are often
1069
00:36:18,333 --> 00:36:20,183
gonna be different from the things that our kids
1070
00:36:20,183 --> 00:36:22,716
value and that feel embarrassing to them um
1071
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,083
and so we uh
1072
00:36:25,333 --> 00:36:28,566
yeah can have so much of our own identity um
1073
00:36:28,583 --> 00:36:30,316
wrapped up in uh
1074
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:31,100
and and
1075
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,300
and and those sorts of things and
1076
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:32,933
you know again
1077
00:36:32,933 --> 00:36:34,266
the the flip side of that is
1078
00:36:34,266 --> 00:36:35,133
is Gideon the
1079
00:36:35,133 --> 00:36:37,700
the kind of star athlete whose parents are uh
1080
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,133
just so over the moon thrilled with him all the time
1081
00:36:40,133 --> 00:36:41,883
because of the fact that he is uh
1082
00:36:42,166 --> 00:36:43,700
he's accomplishing so much
1083
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:48,200
while at the same time he's not necessarily uh
1084
00:36:48,583 --> 00:36:51,533
learning what he needs to learn to be kind of a fully
1085
00:36:51,533 --> 00:36:52,766
um you know
1086
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,383
a a man who can have like a full robust
1087
00:36:56,383 --> 00:36:57,733
fulfilling kind of life
1088
00:36:57,733 --> 00:36:59,500
because he's kind of chasing that
1089
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,166
that sense of accomplishment all the time
1090
00:37:02,416 --> 00:37:09,833
yeah and the outward trappings of being so successful
1091
00:37:11,066 --> 00:37:15,833
are they they sort of belay the internal experience
1092
00:37:16,216 --> 00:37:17,266
and so you know
1093
00:37:17,266 --> 00:37:18,066
he doesn't
1094
00:37:18,333 --> 00:37:20,700
he doesn't necessarily feel that he's that successful
1095
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:21,133
right and
1096
00:37:21,133 --> 00:37:24,300
and he doesn't exactly and so but
1097
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,383
but everybody treats him like he is and so he's like
1098
00:37:27,383 --> 00:37:28,483
and and that
1099
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:32,600
that can really make it hard to
1100
00:37:33,133 --> 00:37:33,866
address
1101
00:37:33,866 --> 00:37:36,300
that gap that we talked about in the very beginning
1102
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:36,816
right you know
1103
00:37:36,816 --> 00:37:41,066
he's got he's got this internal experience of not being
1104
00:37:41,066 --> 00:37:43,483
but everybody thinks you're this thing over here
1105
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:45,600
and I feel like this thing over here
1106
00:37:45,783 --> 00:37:48,216
and I feel like I like that
1107
00:37:48,216 --> 00:37:51,016
everybody thinks that I'm like this and
1108
00:37:51,016 --> 00:37:53,183
and if I tell people that no
1109
00:37:53,183 --> 00:37:54,700
this is really my experience
1110
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,966
then this is a bubble that's gonna pop
1111
00:37:57,533 --> 00:37:59,016
and I can't let that happen
1112
00:37:59,016 --> 00:38:00,866
because this is my identity I
1113
00:38:00,866 --> 00:38:02,716
and what I mean
1114
00:38:02,816 --> 00:38:07,766
being able to read about that in such an honest way
1115
00:38:07,933 --> 00:38:11,033
and it's you know
1116
00:38:11,616 --> 00:38:14,600
these men that agreed to do this thing
1117
00:38:15,666 --> 00:38:18,466
are really courageous and
1118
00:38:18,466 --> 00:38:19,666
you know and in some cases
1119
00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:21,566
like you're even using their real names
1120
00:38:21,816 --> 00:38:22,416
uh huh
1121
00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:23,216
um not in all of them
1122
00:38:23,216 --> 00:38:24,300
and you know you
1123
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:25,100
you've
1124
00:38:25,416 --> 00:38:27,266
and but I don't know man
1125
00:38:27,266 --> 00:38:28,083
I mean
1126
00:38:29,183 --> 00:38:31,766
I really admire them yeah
1127
00:38:32,016 --> 00:38:33,016
uh yeah
1128
00:38:33,016 --> 00:38:33,900
I I I
1129
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,466
I really really do too
1130
00:38:35,466 --> 00:38:37,216
um you know I
1131
00:38:37,216 --> 00:38:41,033
I I just can't say enough about um
1132
00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:43,583
their willingness to to be open
1133
00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:47,766
um about their willingness to kind of reveal uh
1134
00:38:47,933 --> 00:38:49,566
some pretty difficult uh
1135
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:50,866
pieces of themselves some the
1136
00:38:50,866 --> 00:38:52,583
uh so many of these stories that that
1137
00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:55,700
that are in this book are not flattering to them um
1138
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,433
you know that they're uh
1139
00:38:57,666 --> 00:38:59,216
they're full they're nuanced
1140
00:38:59,216 --> 00:39:00,733
they're complex um
1141
00:39:00,733 --> 00:39:03,866
but often they they don't look great but
1142
00:39:03,866 --> 00:39:04,533
but they're
1143
00:39:04,533 --> 00:39:06,916
they're these real kind of raw and authentic
1144
00:39:07,133 --> 00:39:08,100
um you know
1145
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,983
peaks into into their experience
1146
00:39:09,983 --> 00:39:11,566
and you know Gideon
1147
00:39:11,583 --> 00:39:12,583
um in particular
1148
00:39:12,583 --> 00:39:13,583
since we were talking about him
1149
00:39:13,583 --> 00:39:16,433
like he and his name has been changed but um
1150
00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:19,016
he just let me I mean
1151
00:39:19,016 --> 00:39:23,133
he let it's so rare that we get a peek into what
1152
00:39:23,133 --> 00:39:25,133
the kind of insecurities that are roiling
1153
00:39:25,133 --> 00:39:26,266
beneath the person
1154
00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,900
who seems like he has everything going for him
1155
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:31,683
um and like he
1156
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:33,716
I mean it even like this the
1157
00:39:33,733 --> 00:39:35,100
his chapter part of the book
1158
00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:36,016
kind of opens with him
1159
00:39:36,016 --> 00:39:38,616
feeling insecure about the size of his penis right
1160
00:39:38,616 --> 00:39:40,116
I mean like he
1161
00:39:40,366 --> 00:39:41,816
and that was a conversation
1162
00:39:41,816 --> 00:39:42,616
we had that conversation
1163
00:39:42,616 --> 00:39:45,266
about four years in to this five year process
1164
00:39:45,266 --> 00:39:48,583
um he'd made an offhand comment about it once years ago
1165
00:39:48,583 --> 00:39:49,183
and I
1166
00:39:49,183 --> 00:39:51,983
we were like on a walk near his home and I just said
1167
00:39:51,983 --> 00:39:53,183
can we talk about the
1168
00:39:53,183 --> 00:39:55,283
can we talk about how you feel about your penis
1169
00:39:55,583 --> 00:39:56,466
and he was like yep
1170
00:39:56,466 --> 00:39:57,733
let's go what do you wanna know
1171
00:39:57,733 --> 00:40:00,000
and and so we did um
1172
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:00,733
but you know the
1173
00:40:00,733 --> 00:40:03,566
the other other guys as well like um
1174
00:40:04,066 --> 00:40:04,933
it's just really
1175
00:40:04,933 --> 00:40:07,500
really astonishing how much they kind of let me
1176
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:09,816
let me into their lives and you
1177
00:40:09,816 --> 00:40:10,900
some of them Ryan
1178
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,583
um who we'd spent some time talking about
1179
00:40:12,583 --> 00:40:14,783
the one who whose father tried to teach him to fight
1180
00:40:14,783 --> 00:40:17,000
and who later starts fighting when he's older
1181
00:40:17,066 --> 00:40:17,866
um
1182
00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:19,933
he did use his real name uh
1183
00:40:19,933 --> 00:40:23,666
and he has been like this is my story
1184
00:40:23,666 --> 00:40:26,183
um I don't know how everyone's gonna feel about it
1185
00:40:26,183 --> 00:40:27,500
but uh
1186
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:31,966
this is who I am and my hope is that sharing it might
1187
00:40:32,016 --> 00:40:34,133
have a positive impact on someone
1188
00:40:34,133 --> 00:40:37,766
and I I wanna kind of stand behind the fact that um
1189
00:40:37,933 --> 00:40:39,300
that this is me um
1190
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:41,033
and so uh
1191
00:40:41,133 --> 00:40:41,500
yeah I
1192
00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:41,700
I I
1193
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,183
I just can't say enough about how open and honest and
1194
00:40:46,183 --> 00:40:48,500
and vulnerable each of these guys are willing to be
1195
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:49,416
yeah and
1196
00:40:49,416 --> 00:40:50,566
I mean his case is
1197
00:40:50,816 --> 00:40:53,833
that's really courageous his story in particular is
1198
00:40:54,566 --> 00:40:56,933
he's tough yeah
1199
00:40:56,933 --> 00:40:58,166
he does some rough stuff and
1200
00:40:58,383 --> 00:40:59,733
and you know
1201
00:40:59,733 --> 00:41:01,283
the fact that he's willing to do it
1202
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:02,700
attach his own name to that I
1203
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,933
I don't I don't know if
1204
00:41:03,933 --> 00:41:05,216
I don't think I'd do it I
1205
00:41:05,216 --> 00:41:06,533
I don't know we're
1206
00:41:06,533 --> 00:41:09,000
and we're all the richer for it and um
1207
00:41:09,533 --> 00:41:10,100
you know but
1208
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:13,733
I mean even just sharing the story under pseudonym is
1209
00:41:13,733 --> 00:41:15,783
is really brave absolutely
1210
00:41:15,783 --> 00:41:16,933
and absolutely yeah
1211
00:41:16,933 --> 00:41:18,416
I mean we're
1212
00:41:18,416 --> 00:41:20,466
we're really fortunate yeah
1213
00:41:20,466 --> 00:41:22,733
we're really fortunate they decided to let you do it
1214
00:41:22,733 --> 00:41:25,200
and we're really fortunate you decided to do it too
1215
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:26,133
well thank you one
1216
00:41:26,133 --> 00:41:27,900
one last thing about that that
1217
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,000
that I'll share is um
1218
00:41:30,383 --> 00:41:31,866
you know one of the men
1219
00:41:31,866 --> 00:41:32,666
um
1220
00:41:33,333 --> 00:41:34,183
one thing I did was
1221
00:41:34,183 --> 00:41:37,883
I let them all see their stories in advance
1222
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:38,533
um I
1223
00:41:38,533 --> 00:41:39,500
I just felt like
1224
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,733
I wanted to write it with so much intimacy
1225
00:41:41,733 --> 00:41:44,700
that I felt like I couldn't publish it without them
1226
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,783
like being able to sit with it and
1227
00:41:47,783 --> 00:41:49,183
and kind of give me a sense of like
1228
00:41:49,183 --> 00:41:50,933
whether I'd kind of captured it or not
1229
00:41:50,933 --> 00:41:52,466
um and the first time I did it
1230
00:41:52,466 --> 00:41:54,266
what I did is I read it out loud to each of
1231
00:41:54,266 --> 00:41:55,983
them I I went in person
1232
00:41:55,983 --> 00:41:57,916
I can't imagine what this session was like
1233
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,333
it was I can't imagine I mean that takes balls
1234
00:42:01,333 --> 00:42:02,700
it takes balls to do that
1235
00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,816
to decide to do it and to listen to it on all sides
1236
00:42:05,816 --> 00:42:06,633
that is
1237
00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:08,416
there's some masculinity happening in that room
1238
00:42:08,416 --> 00:42:10,333
right there it was it was intense
1239
00:42:10,333 --> 00:42:11,716
but you know one of them
1240
00:42:11,783 --> 00:42:15,333
there was one scene that's particularly rough
1241
00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:17,416
and he was like
1242
00:42:17,416 --> 00:42:18,616
the first time I read it out loud to him
1243
00:42:18,616 --> 00:42:21,300
he was like I don't know if I can do this
1244
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,216
uh like this is after we'd spent years doing work
1245
00:42:24,216 --> 00:42:25,183
doing all these interviews
1246
00:42:25,183 --> 00:42:26,300
all spending all this time together
1247
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,183
me following him through so much of his life
1248
00:42:28,183 --> 00:42:31,333
and he just had this visceral reaction to it
1249
00:42:31,333 --> 00:42:31,533
he's like
1250
00:42:31,533 --> 00:42:34,100
it's all true like everything you just read happened
1251
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,033
but like something about it was just really tough
1252
00:42:37,183 --> 00:42:38,183
and you know
1253
00:42:38,183 --> 00:42:39,616
then he came back to me a couple weeks later
1254
00:42:39,616 --> 00:42:41,700
we didn't talk for a couple weeks and he said like
1255
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:42,333
I'm good
1256
00:42:42,333 --> 00:42:45,100
like don't change a thing like I'm I'm totally fine
1257
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:47,216
and this was one of the men who is a parent
1258
00:42:47,216 --> 00:42:48,716
and what he said was
1259
00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:50,816
the thought of my child reading this
1260
00:42:50,816 --> 00:42:52,466
when they are 15 years old
1261
00:42:52,466 --> 00:42:54,700
and knowing that this is me uh
1262
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,633
feels absolutely terrifying like terrifying um
1263
00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:59,983
but the thought of my child reading this
1264
00:42:59,983 --> 00:43:02,816
when they are forty and I am an old
1265
00:43:02,816 --> 00:43:06,333
man and they have now gone through a lot of stuff
1266
00:43:06,333 --> 00:43:08,583
in their own lives and they have this like
1267
00:43:08,583 --> 00:43:12,066
window into who their father was and is
1268
00:43:12,066 --> 00:43:14,366
and all of the things that shaped me um
1269
00:43:14,533 --> 00:43:16,183
that actually feels really nice like to
1270
00:43:16,183 --> 00:43:19,916
to be to be known by by them in that way and uh
1271
00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:23,666
and so he didn't ask me to change a thing and um yeah
1272
00:43:23,666 --> 00:43:25,616
I I feel you know just can
1273
00:43:25,616 --> 00:43:27,383
cannot say enough about like the
1274
00:43:27,383 --> 00:43:28,900
the level of vulnerability and
1275
00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:31,616
and courage that each of these guys had in in sharing
1276
00:43:31,616 --> 00:43:32,566
sharing this way
1277
00:43:32,816 --> 00:43:34,816
we should all have a journalist follow us around
1278
00:43:34,816 --> 00:43:36,233
for five years hahaha
1279
00:43:36,383 --> 00:43:38,883
I do kind of believe that our story like hahaha
1280
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:39,716
so that our
1281
00:43:39,816 --> 00:43:42,433
our sons can read it when when we're eighty
1282
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:45,700
maybe AI I I do think we might be better off where
1283
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,466
you know there there's just something powerful
1284
00:43:47,466 --> 00:43:49,100
everyone's story is fascinating
1285
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:53,333
like everyone's story if you dig deep enough
1286
00:43:53,333 --> 00:43:55,066
like there there's some interesting stuff there
1287
00:43:55,066 --> 00:43:56,216
and uh I
1288
00:43:56,216 --> 00:43:57,866
I think that it's a really powerful thing
1289
00:43:57,866 --> 00:43:59,066
to have your story told and
1290
00:43:59,066 --> 00:44:00,216
and to be able to like
1291
00:44:00,216 --> 00:44:01,900
more fully understand the stories of
1292
00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:03,483
of people you you know and love
1293
00:44:03,583 --> 00:44:05,033
I think that's absolutely true
1294
00:44:05,133 --> 00:44:08,100
I always love to end these conversations with the
1295
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:10,200
more or less the same question of everybody
1296
00:44:10,466 --> 00:44:13,600
and that is if there's one principle
1297
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:17,100
that every parent listening might live by to
1298
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,466
to guide them as they raise excellent men
1299
00:44:20,466 --> 00:44:22,183
what what principle do you
1300
00:44:22,183 --> 00:44:25,283
would you come up with yeah um
1301
00:44:25,816 --> 00:44:28,100
I I don't know if this counts as a principle or not
1302
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:28,266
but
1303
00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:31,300
the two things that I try to hold on to all the time
1304
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,000
are just empathy and curiosity
1305
00:44:34,266 --> 00:44:38,900
um just trying to as much and again
1306
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,666
it's tough with a two and a half year old to like fully
1307
00:44:41,666 --> 00:44:44,616
like empathize with what's going on in
1308
00:44:44,616 --> 00:44:46,383
in his little brain um
1309
00:44:46,383 --> 00:44:47,683
but uh
1310
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,100
trying to you know
1311
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,066
I can at times
1312
00:44:51,066 --> 00:44:53,216
it can be easy to get pulled into power struggles
1313
00:44:53,216 --> 00:44:54,200
and like yeah
1314
00:44:54,216 --> 00:44:55,133
uh like I
1315
00:44:55,133 --> 00:44:56,133
we're gonna do this
1316
00:44:56,133 --> 00:44:59,816
and we're gonna do this because I said so and um
1317
00:44:59,816 --> 00:45:01,216
and while you want you know
1318
00:45:01,216 --> 00:45:02,333
those firm boundaries
1319
00:45:02,333 --> 00:45:04,800
you want those clear like sets of expectations
1320
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:05,583
um I
1321
00:45:05,583 --> 00:45:07,133
I I think that also
1322
00:45:07,133 --> 00:45:10,266
like allowing yourself to try to understand
1323
00:45:10,266 --> 00:45:11,900
as best as you can like to
1324
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:12,933
to the best of like
1325
00:45:12,933 --> 00:45:15,483
the limits of your own empathy or curiosity
1326
00:45:15,816 --> 00:45:17,300
what's going on and
1327
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,066
and that that is making this
1328
00:45:19,066 --> 00:45:20,883
making your kid you know
1329
00:45:21,016 --> 00:45:22,933
pitch the fit that they're pitching or
1330
00:45:22,933 --> 00:45:25,300
or do whatever it is that they're doing um
1331
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:26,533
and if you can just like
1332
00:45:26,533 --> 00:45:28,733
just even the attempt to understand
1333
00:45:28,733 --> 00:45:31,033
even the attempt to um
1334
00:45:31,616 --> 00:45:33,466
try to enter into their experience ever
1335
00:45:33,466 --> 00:45:35,666
ever so briefly I think can
1336
00:45:35,666 --> 00:45:38,400
can allow you to um
1337
00:45:38,533 --> 00:45:39,983
you know engage with them in a way that is
1338
00:45:39,983 --> 00:45:41,916
a little bit more uh
1339
00:45:42,183 --> 00:45:44,433
just kind of open to um
1340
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,216
to kind of the the full reality of of
1341
00:45:47,216 --> 00:45:49,016
of their experience and and the fact that
1342
00:45:49,016 --> 00:45:55,266
like they are a full complex human being just as we are
1343
00:45:55,266 --> 00:45:56,783
um even though they're
1344
00:45:56,783 --> 00:45:57,933
they're still in formation
1345
00:45:57,933 --> 00:45:59,266
even though so much of
1346
00:45:59,266 --> 00:46:01,416
kind of the way their brains work is uh not
1347
00:46:01,416 --> 00:46:03,333
not ideal um
1348
00:46:03,333 --> 00:46:04,700
like that they are having full
1349
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:05,900
rich experiences
1350
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,016
just as we are at every moment of every day
1351
00:46:08,016 --> 00:46:09,616
and trying to kind of uh
1352
00:46:09,616 --> 00:46:11,616
understand those experiences
1353
00:46:11,616 --> 00:46:12,816
the best you can in the moment I
1354
00:46:12,816 --> 00:46:15,333
I think serves you well I love that principle
1355
00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,900
I think it's great um
1356
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:18,900
it definitely qualifies and I think I
1357
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:20,966
I mean it really is uh
1358
00:46:21,266 --> 00:46:21,983
your the the
1359
00:46:21,983 --> 00:46:24,983
the book also reminds us that
1360
00:46:24,983 --> 00:46:27,100
one of the most important gifts
1361
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:28,733
that we can give our boys
1362
00:46:28,733 --> 00:46:31,100
is that gift of being seen
1363
00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:32,433
and of being known
1364
00:46:33,016 --> 00:46:35,733
right and that they always have this place
1365
00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:36,900
they always have this place
1366
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,100
no matter what they always have this place
1367
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,283
it is a safe place to come and
1368
00:46:41,483 --> 00:46:43,683
you know show yourself with all your faults
1369
00:46:43,816 --> 00:46:45,983
and if you do nothing else as a parent of
1370
00:46:45,983 --> 00:46:50,433
of a boy that's what you wanna be doing absolutely
1371
00:46:50,583 --> 00:46:50,900
absolutely and
1372
00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:53,466
you know you don't have to wait for crises to
1373
00:46:53,466 --> 00:46:55,016
to start those conversations right
1374
00:46:55,016 --> 00:46:56,200
you you start
1375
00:46:56,266 --> 00:46:58,300
it's not even I mean it's
1376
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:02,666
it's about how you even react when they
1377
00:47:02,666 --> 00:47:04,916
you know throw a fit like yeah
1378
00:47:05,066 --> 00:47:06,016
you can throw a fit if you want
1379
00:47:06,016 --> 00:47:07,233
like I get it
1380
00:47:07,383 --> 00:47:08,266
it's fine yeah
1381
00:47:08,266 --> 00:47:10,416
please don't hit people please don't call me that
1382
00:47:10,416 --> 00:47:11,133
you know let's
1383
00:47:11,133 --> 00:47:12,333
let's set some boundaries to this
1384
00:47:12,333 --> 00:47:12,866
but you know
1385
00:47:12,866 --> 00:47:13,666
man sure
1386
00:47:14,133 --> 00:47:16,866
you gotta if it's a part of learning how to deal with
1387
00:47:16,866 --> 00:47:19,200
strong emotions that's great right absolutely
1388
00:47:19,216 --> 00:47:21,183
absolutely um yeah I
1389
00:47:21,183 --> 00:47:23,016
I I totally agree with all of that yeah
1390
00:47:23,016 --> 00:47:23,466
well Jordan
1391
00:47:23,466 --> 00:47:26,233
thank you so much for joining us today
1392
00:47:26,416 --> 00:47:26,616
uh it
1393
00:47:26,616 --> 00:47:28,183
it has been an absolute privilege to
1394
00:47:28,183 --> 00:47:31,000
to talk to you and and thank you for uh
1395
00:47:31,533 --> 00:47:33,983
for the book as well thank you so much Sean
1396
00:47:33,983 --> 00:47:35,266
I I uh yeah really
1397
00:47:35,266 --> 00:47:37,100
really love this conversation and uh
1398
00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:39,533
so admire and appreciate the work that you're doing
1399
00:47:39,533 --> 00:47:42,316
and I was was grateful to have the chance to talk
1400
00:47:42,366 --> 00:47:43,066
thanks a ton
1401
00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:47,100
if you found today's deep dive into American men
1402
00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:50,866
helpful please pick up a copy of Jordan's book
1403
00:47:50,866 --> 00:47:52,933
and don't forget to like and subscribe to us
1404
00:47:52,933 --> 00:47:55,766
and leave a review more than just about anything
1405
00:47:55,866 --> 00:47:58,233
the reviews really help other people find the show
1406
00:47:58,383 --> 00:48:00,933
my name is Sean Dawson and thank you for joining us
1407
00:48:00,933 --> 00:48:04,233
and remember you are a great parent
1408
00:48:13,066 --> 00:48:16,500
raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez
1409
00:48:16,750 --> 00:48:19,550
this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino
