Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
0:13
Welcome to queer Devotions from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Bridget today I speak with Hazim is my own, a queer, non binary and Muslim anthropologist who today speaks about the long history of gender fluidity and how colonization and post strict and violent definitions on gender XIM also talks about the misconceptions of how queerness and religion can be compatible and their various teachings in different Muslim contexts. And then so much from this conversation and so enjoyed speaking with his aim. Okay, welcome to the podcast today. His name's How's it going?
Hazim Ismail:
1:05
I'm well, I am a little malnourished this morning. But I am well
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:12
know, we can do it. We can break for a snack if you need.
Hazim Ismail:
1:16
Oh, no, I, I've got I'm gonna make myself a big meal after this.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:21
Okay, very good. Glad to hear it. So first, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hazim Ismail:
1:27
I am a recent graduate from the University of Toronto. I graduated with a Master of Arts in anthropology, with a collaborative Master's in contemporary East and Southeast Asian Studies. I, so I don't know what's the threshold when you start to consider yourself an anthropologist. But that is that has been my field for a while now. And I'm continuing my research, hopefully to PhD in anthropology as well. My prior research was a lot on Queer Studies and colonization, queer anthropology. I'm trying to shift that and apply what I learned in Queer Studies to discard studies. So a little bit of a change from studying sexual sex, sexuality and gender. But I'm really excited because now I get to combine Queer Studies with something more ecological environmental. Yeah, and I'm, I didn't identify as non binary and queer and I use they them pronouns or dia, we can talk about pronoun usage later, outside of English. And I am a former refugee I am currently stateless. And what else? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm bogus bouquets on my mother's side. And book is Japanese. And my mother's side of my father's side is Chinese. So between Malaysia and Indonesia, so yeah, that's a little too long. But
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:08
no, that's perfect. Thank you.
Unknown:
3:12
Um,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:12
before we go any further, I do not know what discard studies is, because you could you just give us a brief summary of what that is.
Hazim Ismail:
3:19
It is the study of waste. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, I just am just fascinated with the waste that we produce. And this extends to the concept of people as waste. So which is why it overlaps with Queer Studies? Well, because Queer Studies looks at what's at the margins. and discard studies is sort of what how do we make order out of what we discard? Right. So,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:50
so just turning to our discussion about spirituality, what faith traditions were part of your childhood and your coming of age?
Hazim Ismail:
4:00
I definitely grew up in a Muslim family. Very, my mother's very much she would say she's not religious, but she was very religious. She used to say I'm a Muslim first, and then mother second. That's one of her that will go on her tombstone. Well, I Well, we don't really have tombstones but but the Islam that we actually practice that we like, if you ask a lot of people in my communities, some were Muslim Muslim, but the way it materializes is very, and this word is very overused, but it does apply syncretic with pre colonial practices, for example, we would leave bones out after meals for gins, right. And people understand that as Oh, this is an Islamic thing because the gins right But that was prior to the arrival of Islam to the region and the 14th to 16th century depending on where in Southeast Asia. So these sort of things are really interesting because they kind of meld with our understanding of Islam. Right. And so that's like, so when I say I'm Muslim, I, there's a lot of overlap with, with like, kind of the Arab Muslim, but there's also a lot of things specific to to our community cultures, which is why you can't always tease culture away from
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:35
and for those who don't know, what is syncretic
Hazim Ismail:
5:38
syncretic is basically like a combo a combination of different it is usually applied to religion. So a famous example is here in Canada with indigenous spiritualities. And religions. Combining with Christianity is typically Christianity here, but it could be other other case. So and that's a form of syncretism as well. Thank you, thanks
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
6:12
for defining that. That's, that's fascinating. So early on, you witnessed and we're part of a very, very rich tradition that combined and was responsive to many different contexts and software to say,
Hazim Ismail:
6:29
Mm hmm. And different, different ways of approaching Islam. Like my mother was very rigid, I will say like, she was very, very, like, rigid in what she followed. But my grandmother was so in stark contrast, she was very, she really kept to our roots are Sulawesi bouquets roots. In her conceptualization of gender, she still held on to the idea that we had multiple genders, with my mother was very binary. So different, but they were both very, they were both very strong Muslims, right?
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
7:07
Do you remember, in, in growing up or coming of age or whatever it was, Do you remember the first time you felt that your faith or spirituality was in conflict with your sexuality, or gender expression?
Hazim Ismail:
7:21
There were I don't think there was like, one moment or anything, it just sort of chipped away at how I made sense of the world over time, you know, teenage years, definitely. Were trips to the city. And I would sort of, oh, wow, like, look at those people. They're dressed like that, I want to dress like that. And my mother would say, No, you're, you're a man, you can't dress like that, right. And then I would, in my head, it would be like, but when I was a kid, but when my grandmother, let me wear her clothes, you know, like, just sort of Hawaii, I don't understand, you know, and you're questioning these things, and then starting, I went to business school, back home. And that's when I did a lot of like, exploring, going to the clubs and then having that and everybody there was like, screw, religion, screw whatever, like, we like, their conceptualizations those spaces of gender and sexuality, we're very much closer to like a Western framework, which is, for me, in that kind of space is neither good nor bad. It's just having the autonomy to decide, right? And that, but for me, also, like, but I am I still a Muslim, if I do this, you know, like that kind of the quantum kind of questioning. And I did go through a phase where I was like, I'm an atheist, and, and I didn't really gel with me, because I felt like I was discarding a lot of pieces of me and the process. So yeah, so that was, that was, it's still a lot of work to do. Nobody's a complete human, everybody's still working on themselves. And I'm enjoying adulthood more because I'm realizing that now I have more time and more headspace, especially in a pandemic, actually to, to consolidate whatever misgivings I had about these different parts of myself, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
9:31
So you've described already multiple conceptions of gender and sexuality you witnessed growing up, including differences between your grandmother and your mother. And we often talk about gender and sexuality, as if there's one understanding or there's a universal understanding. So what does it mean to say that there are multiple definitions and understandings of gender and sexuality across the world?
Hazim Ismail:
9:56
Well, gender and sexuality First of all, we are Often pair the two together, they're not always together, right. So they can be detached from one another. So I think when we say that they're different in different places, we are referencing the fact that colonization and imperialism impose the hegemonic understanding on the use, you know, that is prevalent today of man versus woman heteronormativity. And even when we talk about queerness, it's, it's, it's centered in a Western framework, right? So when we say there are different conceptualizations, we're, we're referencing a point in time, that there were different conceptualizations. And due to the processes of colonization and imperialism, they were either in force or coerce or institutionally kind of snuffed out. To become this binary that we know today, right? That's for gender and sexuality. It's, it's heteronormativity, right? Yeah, so it's sort of like it's, it's a callback, basically. So when we say like it, when, when we, when we do that, we're referencing that point in time, but it's also a call to action for autonomy to decide, construct things outside of a Western framework. So there, if you go online, it's a very simplistic map, and this will be on the RF website. Because it's a resource I submitted. It's a map of gender diversity around the world. And again, be cautious with the map because some of the things are still a colonial terms, but it does give you a glimpse as to how different communities around the world conceptualize gender beyond man and woman. Right. A really good example and I'll give a I don't know whether I should talk about this now. But a really good example of how colonization really took out gender diversity from community would be far off in a in Samoa, and how its associated with Margaret Meads destructive work and some and how that inform the colonial government to, to kind of impose her heteronormativity right. But far Fini in Samoa, be soon from my communities were bogus communities. You have worry outs in Java, you have a toy in Thailand, Two Spirit communities here. You have or in Navajo, you have badly. And there aren't, I think there are a lot of there are more examples in Europe, but I think because your has long been. It's, it's also sad, like, been subject to head on mortality for longer, even prior to colonization of the rest of the world. It's a little hard to trace. But a good recent one would be bernicia in Albania. So there's a lot of there's so much around the world. And the stories are there. I talked to my friend in Nigeria. And I was like, You have something like, even similar or something that's not ignoring Western and then, you know, my friends were like, yeah, my grandfather used to talk about this, you know, these people this this is, their their stories are there is we don't make space for it. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
13:43
So there are organizations that are working to help gender nonconforming people, but how do they kind of make sure that they're validating on Western gender expressions and identities?
Hazim Ismail:
13:56
I think the first thing is to not assume and to make space. And people will not always have the terms for it, because some things are not translatable. But if you're making this space, it can be articulated, I think, when you have a rigid, I see this with the immigration system, for example, where they're trying to, in a way make the the refugee claims process for queer migrants more inclusive, but the categories and the the way to decide whether someone's a valid, you know, like, queer or not, because they do try to validate your queerness is really rigid accord, like, rigid in alignment with both and frameworks, because there's no they're not providing spaces. There's no like, short prompt here. Tell us your story. And people have different ways of telling stories, right? Or articulating their sexuality, their gender. So that's the first thing and To is to focus on material supports over this idea that you have to educate people. Because that's imperialism at work, right? This idea that you have the knowledge, and then you you're going to, that's its imperialism and Savior ism, and then you're going to impart that knowledge, right? Like somebody who is a toy in Thailand, the word ladyboy off is often used as derogatory. So a lot of people try to use a toy in Thailand. So people know who they are, right? People know, their own subjectivity. They know what their lives are, they know what it means to be a toy. Some NGO comes along and says, Wait, I don't understand, are you trans? Are you like, Are you gay, like, you're a ladyboy, you know, like, you're not making space and this and then furthermore, your, you know, like, some NGOs, or some whoever's working will say, I want to help you, but like, here's a human rights framework, you got to be either gay, or lesbian or like, so that they can, like, you know, properly ascertain that you're queer, right? So this sort of the expression of, of Thai cutaway does not map accurate, accurately, onto a Western framework. And that means that you can have, like, you know, you can be denied a refugee claim or access to certain things and supports that you need. So that's why I say, don't focus on trying to like say, oh, you're this or that, or telling people who they are focused on providing material support, some material is money, space, housing, you know, these sort of things. Because that's, that's building on my prior thing, which is providing space space isn't just space to talk spaces, sort of the headspace, the material needs being met, you're not hungry, you're not poor, because a lot of people who are queer, are going to be more susceptible to poverty and homelessness, and, you know, medical supports. So these focus on these things over this idea that you have to educate. That's, that's a, that's a big thing as I fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live. And then you can start after that, you know,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
17:31
rather than bring first your definition, to say, this is how I understand you, this is how I make legible you to a state apparatus does not include like how you see the world.
Hazim Ismail:
17:44
When you're financially materially grounded and stable, you're more capable of asserting yourself. Right, like when you're not dependent on this happens a lot in Southeast Asia where a lot of unfortunately, religious organizations, but also beyond the NGOs will set up like shelters for women where in order to access supports, they have to succumb or like kind of make themselves fit into other framework, just that the organization has to access material supports. Right. And that's really not unique to that. But I think that's an example that I can think of where you can't withhold material support until somebody is sort of, quote unquote, valid to you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
18:40
And, to my mind it, it also recalls, it's sort of, like on the NGOs terms, and there is a weird permission structure, it seems to be at work. And I'm curious, and this is sort of a little bit further afield from what we're going to talk about, but why there's such a hesitancy I mean, obviously, there's, we're talking about the, you know, imperialism of the NGOs, but the hesitancy to sort of believe in grant material supports, versus first get this kind of assurance that they're granting it to the right people, like there's such a, then that hesitancy, of course, is is, you know, mired in is all of this context, but it's just, you know, we've seen it time and time again, and I guess, what are what are some radical models that you've been that you've observed, that are doing this work that are first granting that material support, rather than asking for a kind of Western? Well, you know, identity, it's, it's,
Hazim Ismail:
19:49
it's hard because a lot of things will, you know, have to abide by the nation state apparatus, right, like the immigration system is one of the One of those tools. So partly, like, you kind of have to navigate how to like, you know, get people through these sort of systems, but also give autonomy. A good example would be, when I was living in Winnipeg treaty one, there's quite a bit of relief, cool Two Spirit kind of cooperation and coordination with Muslim communities in like a lot of like newcomer communities. So there was a support group that used to function, I don't know whether it's still doing it. But for a while they work as there was an increase in asylum seekers. And they were operating out of sunshine house, and they were just, they didn't do any questioning whenever they're like, What do you need? Like, that's the first question what you need. And then next, what do you want, right? And people have different needs, and wants, and there's a whole team of people, these are volunteers, community, providing community and, and it's grounded in to spirit organization, right? sunshine house. And so one of the things that would often be needed was a letter of support for your refugee claim. And so there would be this whole network of people like, Okay, I'm gonna write you a letter, I'm gonna write you a letter, I'm gonna write you a letter, there was no like, are you really gay? Are you not like, because immigration systems already doing that? Right? In a not so great way, but I think that's one of the ways people are trying to, like, sidestep or navigate the limitations of, of like, okay, we want to provide as much speech as possible, but then you have to get through the, the system is where there is immigration, or some sort of health care, you know, system where they're not maybe understanding of, of trans non binary vizu Hydra identities, and but you want to help them get the things that they needed somebody needs hormones, how do you get them to hormones, right. So, yeah, like, that's an example of normalization. in Winnipeg. So and there's a lot of there's quite a number around the world where places, sanctuary cities often try to have this policy, Toronto's technically one, but it's not the greatest of falling through on a sanctuary city policy. The reason why I mentioned that is sanctuary city policy means that you don't question somebody's immigration status. And part of that is also sort of the same philosophy of like not questioning like somebodies like gender or using this man woman binary to determine whether someone's more Oh, yeah, you look like a woman. So you're more susceptible to this, you know, or you're quoted as this as queer. So, all Yeah, you must be you probably have HIV, these sort of things. Right. So yeah, I know, there's, in healthcare, there's a lot of examples of people doing that work, to just have this openness. So people can assert themselves without, without sacrificing the supports in a need. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
23:20
So what are some misconceptions about religion and gender diversity and how they work together?
Hazim Ismail:
23:26
I think the misconception is that they don't work together, right? Cuz people position religion as our cake and part of the path. And people position this often Western gender diversity as like a bastion of progress. Like we were so happy, like, I guess in terms of maybe in the States, it would be a democratic kind of here's like, liberal NDP, a sort of we celebrate when and it's reason to celebrate, obviously, like, we get a trans MP person, you know, things like this are non binary. In the US, you haven't now a non binary lawmaker, the first one, right? And these things are great. But I think people when they see this, like this non binary non binary lawmaker in the US, is also a Muslim. Right. And some media reporting is not mentioned, the Muslim or some media reportings only mentioned the Muslim but don't mention the non binary. To that, that's a kudos of the ones that do mentioned both because I think it's really important because it does tackle isms conception that they're not compatible for, for my communities, who gets be sued, and the other genders like auto Winnie McQueen, rye, Taylor Alliance alibi. We've been practicing Islam as part of our conceptualization of gender for centuries now. And nothing is a utopian you know, nothing is utopian in the world. So every community has a lot of kinks to work out. But there is a definitely a place for gender plurality right alongside Islam. And I think that's one conception but they don't, they don't gel together, right. And also texts, religious texts like the Quran. I don't know too much about the Bible or Torah. But at least with the Quran, there is quite a bit of space for interpretation and a lot of interpretation in the past, within Muslim communities, like predominantly have been very patriarchal. And but now a lot of people like in the US organization, Muslims for progressive, while they identify as progressive Muslims, but it could be muslims for progressive voices, something like that. The that can advocate for a more open interpretation, right. So so people can, like, have ease about being a Muslim and being non binary, for example. And I think that's really beautiful, and, and really great direction and the kind of conversation that wouldn't have happened in the past 10 years. So it's, it's a recent development that people are tackling this and I know, RF is trying to do that as well and make space for that. And yeah, so I, I think that's one conception misconception that they don't go together. And or that religion is oppressive to gender diversity went from me, at least from an academic standpoint. And as a, like a former refugee and stateless person, it is a state apparatus, which is the obstruction and not their religion. Right.
Unknown:
27:00
So, yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
27:04
You described earlier on this conversation, the difference in pronouns in English versus other languages, do you want to just talk about that briefly about how pronouns work for yourself when you're operating in different worlds or in different languages?
Hazim Ismail:
27:23
Well, so I speak Bahasa and bigass, in addition to English, and these two languages are asked for an Asian languages and most if not all, as an Asian languages are genderless. So the way pronoun usage spans across the languages of the world, they trickle down to three basic forms for pronouns, one is grammatical gender, so English would be a grammatical gender language, so you do have he have she, but they don't need to correspond to the verb, right? In a quote unquote, proper way, French, French and Spanish, they're what linguists call quote, unquote, I don't like this term, but it's, they're called, they call it natural gender. So the pronoun has to correspond with the the verb, right? So you have masculine and feminine, there's a whole history around how masculine feminine came about that isn't super tied to conceptualizations of gender, but just how, where we are today with those languages. And then you have gender lists, which do not have, so I use dia, to refer to anybody is not a he's not a she is just, you know, a person, and it could also be a non human person, or like a non human being, that you're referring to. And most, over half of the world languages are genderless. Right? So it really speaks to, to kind of, I don't know, like, what is the dominant, you know, like, like forum for pronouns around the world is actually genderless that that is a dominant, but we are bound to binaries in a way and but that's not to say that if you're using a language or your language is is, is very binary, like if it was French, or Spanish, or hindi, hindi is technically a natural gender language, it doesn't mean that you can't assert your non gender conforming identities, he draw communities in India, have long been able to navigate the like the binary ness of Hindi so that they are validating themselves, right. That could be tweaks that could be alterations here and there, whatever it is, in terms of syntax, so that you actually have a language that works for you instead of you working to fit into a binary So that's what I mean by pronouns. Like there's, there's some when I use, like they them, I'm also thinking like, Well, sometimes they don't feels like an other, like a cronquist third gender, just kind of want to be gender lis. So like, do in in Bahasa that I use, it just means like, you know, this is a scented being you know. And that's, that's nice it's it's I'm not I don't want to romanticize it but it, it feels very, very nice to have that space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
30:35
you know? Hmm. Well, and it's, it's interesting to hear people who come at like they them pronouns in a Western context from this feeling like, Oh, this is how our language is. And that's the kind of destiny so therefore, it cannot be changed. And, and like even said the way that French pronouns like the natural it there I think it sounds like sometimes people are wedded to this feeling like language is destiny, and it shows who we are. But I mean, we just know language changes language is constantly evolving, it is this thing that we've created to speak to one another. And it, of course, is like, you know, the language I'm speaking today is because there was a Norman Conquest, and then it married, you know, two different dude, a very different set of languages. And so I think hearing hearing you describe this, in my mind just recalls the way that some people think of it as this very static, very naturalized thing that almost emerged out of nowhere to predict how we can talk to one another versus this thing that is always evolving and can always be more expensive. And there's always I think there's what excites me too, is that there are always more words, like we're always making up new words. And there's no, there's no limit there. And so that, yeah, but that's really cool. Thanks for
Hazim Ismail:
32:05
thanks for talking about pronouns and stuff. You said it really nicely. And I very, like I was kind of granting on, but I think you said it really perfectly. Like language is not static, right? And if statically you have room to assert yourself, if it's not working for you. And if enough people do that, then you have a language change. Right. I it's exciting. It's nice that like, maybe 10 years ago, they them would not have been as normalized it as it is today. Right? Well, so no, it's it's good. Like, I think, earlier this year, Manitoba, now you can have them on your Manitoba IDs and your driver's license. And that's thanks to rizoma who is black and MP or MLA for unionization, so really, really great person, and used to be part of that group that would function out of sunshine house to provide supports for newcomers, for queer asylum seekers?
Unknown:
33:19
To find out Finally,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
33:21
I really like this final question, just because it, I think, can put into people's mind again, this opening the space of possibility, which is what does decolonizing gender mean to you?
Hazim Ismail:
33:35
It's a is a big question. It's, it's decolonization is used so much, right? But I think because what is the what the the opposite of decolonization? Is colonization, colonizing So, and colonization imposed binaries and to post certain dominant understandings of gender and sexuality? So for me, it's, it's one, the first step is undoing that as much as you can, you'll never be able to undo everything. But I'm doing as much as you can, and then to having the autonomy to decide what to do then. Right. Where to move forward. So when I say I do, I mean, undo the damage, right? I don't mean like, okay, now that the West has introduced non binary knows, oh, no, you can't be non binary anymore, because we're decolonizing. No, it means undoing the damage of like, Oh, no, I grew up being forced to either be a man or a woman or being forced to be a man or being forced to be a woman. And now Okay, that's doing try to work on doing the damage that that has done. But then the next step is having the space to decide what to do after and having the supports not to space the supports to go go in a direction that you need to do for healing, I think it was Malcolm X, who's famously quoted, I'm gonna fumble the quote a bit, but the he mentioned about reparations for black women in, in the North American context that, like, reparations isn't just pulling the knife out of the back. But it's also like being a part of the healing of the wound, right? And so I think decolonization is that entire process from the pulling out of the knife, which means undoing the damage like that could be that. But then being part of the healing and making space, how do you want to heal? Which direction do you want to heal? And that's for me, the conversation, because when you're able to dissenter yourself, at least on the part of like a settler person or colonizer whatever, somebody in a dominant power position, is to just dissenter and provide support and for people who are on the receiving end for conservation, to, to have to assert yourself and to have that autonomy. And you get to you get to decide for yourself and for your communities, what's needed to move forward, right, and a healthy way. So if that means, and it often does mean, taking concepts that are associated as being Western and what might be with your own traditions, together, that's perfectly fine. As long as that's you being, you know, you write you have a space to be used. So if you, a lot of people are trans into spirit, truck trans and be super non binary and be su or trans and Hydra, you know, this is perfectly fine. They're not incompatible. So, this is all about the cons, I think decolonization is just about having a space, taking space, making space, space, space, space.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:07
Space, space space.
Unknown:
37:09
Hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:09
And for those folks, such as myself, for settlers who are like, like you said, decentering, kind of, it's like, an I'm trying to think of like a metaphor here. But when there is space for other people, that means taking a step back decentering oneself so that I mean, those two things have to go hand in hand for for others to to make space into. Yeah, like you said, For that, for that healing to take place.
Unknown:
37:39
Mm
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:41
hmm. Yeah. Well, I really, I really think you have been this has been such a lovely conversation. I've really learned a lot. I have really enjoyed talking to you about all of this. I want there to be so many more podcasts. And I really, really appreciate your time today.
Hazim Ismail:
37:59
Thank you for taking time and making space for this tiny
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:07
space safe space.
Hazim Ismail:
38:09
That's just and we should just end by tending space space space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:14
shall we? We can, we can absolutely do that. That can be our our final offering. All right. space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space. Thanks. And we did our algorithms, which I feel is fun.
Unknown:
38:30
Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:31
Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you. I hope you have a good rest of your
Unknown:
38:37
day. Thank you, as well.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:46
Thank you so much for joining and thank you to his team who has played such a big role in this week, as he will be joining us at 11 per panel with their fellow researchers to showcase some of the most exciting most rich resources for the database. Later this afternoon, we will have the book club with Reverend Dr. Charles funtion. And then this evening at 730. We will gather for holding the light with Reverend Dr. Brent Hawkes. Another exciting day ahead. Thank you so much for joining me
0:13
Welcome to queer Devotions from rainbow faith and freedom. I'm Bridget today I speak with Hazim is my own, a queer, non binary and Muslim anthropologist who today speaks about the long history of gender fluidity and how colonization and post strict and violent definitions on gender XIM also talks about the misconceptions of how queerness and religion can be compatible and their various teachings in different Muslim contexts. And then so much from this conversation and so enjoyed speaking with his aim. Okay, welcome to the podcast today. His name's How's it going?
Hazim Ismail:
1:05
I'm well, I am a little malnourished this morning. But I am well
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:12
know, we can do it. We can break for a snack if you need.
Hazim Ismail:
1:16
Oh, no, I, I've got I'm gonna make myself a big meal after this.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
1:21
Okay, very good. Glad to hear it. So first, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hazim Ismail:
1:27
I am a recent graduate from the University of Toronto. I graduated with a Master of Arts in anthropology, with a collaborative Master's in contemporary East and Southeast Asian Studies. I, so I don't know what's the threshold when you start to consider yourself an anthropologist. But that is that has been my field for a while now. And I'm continuing my research, hopefully to PhD in anthropology as well. My prior research was a lot on Queer Studies and colonization, queer anthropology. I'm trying to shift that and apply what I learned in Queer Studies to discard studies. So a little bit of a change from studying sexual sex, sexuality and gender. But I'm really excited because now I get to combine Queer Studies with something more ecological environmental. Yeah, and I'm, I didn't identify as non binary and queer and I use they them pronouns or dia, we can talk about pronoun usage later, outside of English. And I am a former refugee I am currently stateless. And what else? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm bogus bouquets on my mother's side. And book is Japanese. And my mother's side of my father's side is Chinese. So between Malaysia and Indonesia, so yeah, that's a little too long. But
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:08
no, that's perfect. Thank you.
Unknown:
3:12
Um,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:12
before we go any further, I do not know what discard studies is, because you could you just give us a brief summary of what that is.
Hazim Ismail:
3:19
It is the study of waste. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, I just am just fascinated with the waste that we produce. And this extends to the concept of people as waste. So which is why it overlaps with Queer Studies? Well, because Queer Studies looks at what's at the margins. and discard studies is sort of what how do we make order out of what we discard? Right. So,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:50
so just turning to our discussion about spirituality, what faith traditions were part of your childhood and your coming of age?
Hazim Ismail:
4:00
I definitely grew up in a Muslim family. Very, my mother's very much she would say she's not religious, but she was very religious. She used to say I'm a Muslim first, and then mother second. That's one of her that will go on her tombstone. Well, I Well, we don't really have tombstones but but the Islam that we actually practice that we like, if you ask a lot of people in my communities, some were Muslim Muslim, but the way it materializes is very, and this word is very overused, but it does apply syncretic with pre colonial practices, for example, we would leave bones out after meals for gins, right. And people understand that as Oh, this is an Islamic thing because the gins right But that was prior to the arrival of Islam to the region and the 14th to 16th century depending on where in Southeast Asia. So these sort of things are really interesting because they kind of meld with our understanding of Islam. Right. And so that's like, so when I say I'm Muslim, I, there's a lot of overlap with, with like, kind of the Arab Muslim, but there's also a lot of things specific to to our community cultures, which is why you can't always tease culture away from
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
5:35
and for those who don't know, what is syncretic
Hazim Ismail:
5:38
syncretic is basically like a combo a combination of different it is usually applied to religion. So a famous example is here in Canada with indigenous spiritualities. And religions. Combining with Christianity is typically Christianity here, but it could be other other case. So and that's a form of syncretism as well. Thank you, thanks
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
6:12
for defining that. That's, that's fascinating. So early on, you witnessed and we're part of a very, very rich tradition that combined and was responsive to many different contexts and software to say,
Hazim Ismail:
6:29
Mm hmm. And different, different ways of approaching Islam. Like my mother was very rigid, I will say like, she was very, very, like, rigid in what she followed. But my grandmother was so in stark contrast, she was very, she really kept to our roots are Sulawesi bouquets roots. In her conceptualization of gender, she still held on to the idea that we had multiple genders, with my mother was very binary. So different, but they were both very, they were both very strong Muslims, right?
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
7:07
Do you remember, in, in growing up or coming of age or whatever it was, Do you remember the first time you felt that your faith or spirituality was in conflict with your sexuality, or gender expression?
Hazim Ismail:
7:21
There were I don't think there was like, one moment or anything, it just sort of chipped away at how I made sense of the world over time, you know, teenage years, definitely. Were trips to the city. And I would sort of, oh, wow, like, look at those people. They're dressed like that, I want to dress like that. And my mother would say, No, you're, you're a man, you can't dress like that, right. And then I would, in my head, it would be like, but when I was a kid, but when my grandmother, let me wear her clothes, you know, like, just sort of Hawaii, I don't understand, you know, and you're questioning these things, and then starting, I went to business school, back home. And that's when I did a lot of like, exploring, going to the clubs and then having that and everybody there was like, screw, religion, screw whatever, like, we like, their conceptualizations those spaces of gender and sexuality, we're very much closer to like a Western framework, which is, for me, in that kind of space is neither good nor bad. It's just having the autonomy to decide, right? And that, but for me, also, like, but I am I still a Muslim, if I do this, you know, like that kind of the quantum kind of questioning. And I did go through a phase where I was like, I'm an atheist, and, and I didn't really gel with me, because I felt like I was discarding a lot of pieces of me and the process. So yeah, so that was, that was, it's still a lot of work to do. Nobody's a complete human, everybody's still working on themselves. And I'm enjoying adulthood more because I'm realizing that now I have more time and more headspace, especially in a pandemic, actually to, to consolidate whatever misgivings I had about these different parts of myself, right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
9:31
So you've described already multiple conceptions of gender and sexuality you witnessed growing up, including differences between your grandmother and your mother. And we often talk about gender and sexuality, as if there's one understanding or there's a universal understanding. So what does it mean to say that there are multiple definitions and understandings of gender and sexuality across the world?
Hazim Ismail:
9:56
Well, gender and sexuality First of all, we are Often pair the two together, they're not always together, right. So they can be detached from one another. So I think when we say that they're different in different places, we are referencing the fact that colonization and imperialism impose the hegemonic understanding on the use, you know, that is prevalent today of man versus woman heteronormativity. And even when we talk about queerness, it's, it's, it's centered in a Western framework, right? So when we say there are different conceptualizations, we're, we're referencing a point in time, that there were different conceptualizations. And due to the processes of colonization and imperialism, they were either in force or coerce or institutionally kind of snuffed out. To become this binary that we know today, right? That's for gender and sexuality. It's, it's heteronormativity, right? Yeah, so it's sort of like it's, it's a callback, basically. So when we say like it, when, when we, when we do that, we're referencing that point in time, but it's also a call to action for autonomy to decide, construct things outside of a Western framework. So there, if you go online, it's a very simplistic map, and this will be on the RF website. Because it's a resource I submitted. It's a map of gender diversity around the world. And again, be cautious with the map because some of the things are still a colonial terms, but it does give you a glimpse as to how different communities around the world conceptualize gender beyond man and woman. Right. A really good example and I'll give a I don't know whether I should talk about this now. But a really good example of how colonization really took out gender diversity from community would be far off in a in Samoa, and how its associated with Margaret Meads destructive work and some and how that inform the colonial government to, to kind of impose her heteronormativity right. But far Fini in Samoa, be soon from my communities were bogus communities. You have worry outs in Java, you have a toy in Thailand, Two Spirit communities here. You have or in Navajo, you have badly. And there aren't, I think there are a lot of there are more examples in Europe, but I think because your has long been. It's, it's also sad, like, been subject to head on mortality for longer, even prior to colonization of the rest of the world. It's a little hard to trace. But a good recent one would be bernicia in Albania. So there's a lot of there's so much around the world. And the stories are there. I talked to my friend in Nigeria. And I was like, You have something like, even similar or something that's not ignoring Western and then, you know, my friends were like, yeah, my grandfather used to talk about this, you know, these people this this is, their their stories are there is we don't make space for it. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
13:43
So there are organizations that are working to help gender nonconforming people, but how do they kind of make sure that they're validating on Western gender expressions and identities?
Hazim Ismail:
13:56
I think the first thing is to not assume and to make space. And people will not always have the terms for it, because some things are not translatable. But if you're making this space, it can be articulated, I think, when you have a rigid, I see this with the immigration system, for example, where they're trying to, in a way make the the refugee claims process for queer migrants more inclusive, but the categories and the the way to decide whether someone's a valid, you know, like, queer or not, because they do try to validate your queerness is really rigid accord, like, rigid in alignment with both and frameworks, because there's no they're not providing spaces. There's no like, short prompt here. Tell us your story. And people have different ways of telling stories, right? Or articulating their sexuality, their gender. So that's the first thing and To is to focus on material supports over this idea that you have to educate people. Because that's imperialism at work, right? This idea that you have the knowledge, and then you you're going to, that's its imperialism and Savior ism, and then you're going to impart that knowledge, right? Like somebody who is a toy in Thailand, the word ladyboy off is often used as derogatory. So a lot of people try to use a toy in Thailand. So people know who they are, right? People know, their own subjectivity. They know what their lives are, they know what it means to be a toy. Some NGO comes along and says, Wait, I don't understand, are you trans? Are you like, Are you gay, like, you're a ladyboy, you know, like, you're not making space and this and then furthermore, your, you know, like, some NGOs, or some whoever's working will say, I want to help you, but like, here's a human rights framework, you got to be either gay, or lesbian or like, so that they can, like, you know, properly ascertain that you're queer, right? So this sort of the expression of, of Thai cutaway does not map accurate, accurately, onto a Western framework. And that means that you can have, like, you know, you can be denied a refugee claim or access to certain things and supports that you need. So that's why I say, don't focus on trying to like say, oh, you're this or that, or telling people who they are focused on providing material support, some material is money, space, housing, you know, these sort of things. Because that's, that's building on my prior thing, which is providing space space isn't just space to talk spaces, sort of the headspace, the material needs being met, you're not hungry, you're not poor, because a lot of people who are queer, are going to be more susceptible to poverty and homelessness, and, you know, medical supports. So these focus on these things over this idea that you have to educate. That's, that's a, that's a big thing as I fight NGO imperialism is to just just, you know, like, give them money, like, give them what they need to live. And then you can start after that, you know,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
17:31
rather than bring first your definition, to say, this is how I understand you, this is how I make legible you to a state apparatus does not include like how you see the world.
Hazim Ismail:
17:44
When you're financially materially grounded and stable, you're more capable of asserting yourself. Right, like when you're not dependent on this happens a lot in Southeast Asia where a lot of unfortunately, religious organizations, but also beyond the NGOs will set up like shelters for women where in order to access supports, they have to succumb or like kind of make themselves fit into other framework, just that the organization has to access material supports. Right. And that's really not unique to that. But I think that's an example that I can think of where you can't withhold material support until somebody is sort of, quote unquote, valid to you.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
18:40
And, to my mind it, it also recalls, it's sort of, like on the NGOs terms, and there is a weird permission structure, it seems to be at work. And I'm curious, and this is sort of a little bit further afield from what we're going to talk about, but why there's such a hesitancy I mean, obviously, there's, we're talking about the, you know, imperialism of the NGOs, but the hesitancy to sort of believe in grant material supports, versus first get this kind of assurance that they're granting it to the right people, like there's such a, then that hesitancy, of course, is is, you know, mired in is all of this context, but it's just, you know, we've seen it time and time again, and I guess, what are what are some radical models that you've been that you've observed, that are doing this work that are first granting that material support, rather than asking for a kind of Western? Well, you know, identity, it's, it's,
Hazim Ismail:
19:49
it's hard because a lot of things will, you know, have to abide by the nation state apparatus, right, like the immigration system is one of the One of those tools. So partly, like, you kind of have to navigate how to like, you know, get people through these sort of systems, but also give autonomy. A good example would be, when I was living in Winnipeg treaty one, there's quite a bit of relief, cool Two Spirit kind of cooperation and coordination with Muslim communities in like a lot of like newcomer communities. So there was a support group that used to function, I don't know whether it's still doing it. But for a while they work as there was an increase in asylum seekers. And they were operating out of sunshine house, and they were just, they didn't do any questioning whenever they're like, What do you need? Like, that's the first question what you need. And then next, what do you want, right? And people have different needs, and wants, and there's a whole team of people, these are volunteers, community, providing community and, and it's grounded in to spirit organization, right? sunshine house. And so one of the things that would often be needed was a letter of support for your refugee claim. And so there would be this whole network of people like, Okay, I'm gonna write you a letter, I'm gonna write you a letter, I'm gonna write you a letter, there was no like, are you really gay? Are you not like, because immigration systems already doing that? Right? In a not so great way, but I think that's one of the ways people are trying to, like, sidestep or navigate the limitations of, of like, okay, we want to provide as much speech as possible, but then you have to get through the, the system is where there is immigration, or some sort of health care, you know, system where they're not maybe understanding of, of trans non binary vizu Hydra identities, and but you want to help them get the things that they needed somebody needs hormones, how do you get them to hormones, right. So, yeah, like, that's an example of normalization. in Winnipeg. So and there's a lot of there's quite a number around the world where places, sanctuary cities often try to have this policy, Toronto's technically one, but it's not the greatest of falling through on a sanctuary city policy. The reason why I mentioned that is sanctuary city policy means that you don't question somebody's immigration status. And part of that is also sort of the same philosophy of like not questioning like somebodies like gender or using this man woman binary to determine whether someone's more Oh, yeah, you look like a woman. So you're more susceptible to this, you know, or you're quoted as this as queer. So, all Yeah, you must be you probably have HIV, these sort of things. Right. So yeah, I know, there's, in healthcare, there's a lot of examples of people doing that work, to just have this openness. So people can assert themselves without, without sacrificing the supports in a need. Right.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
23:20
So what are some misconceptions about religion and gender diversity and how they work together?
Hazim Ismail:
23:26
I think the misconception is that they don't work together, right? Cuz people position religion as our cake and part of the path. And people position this often Western gender diversity as like a bastion of progress. Like we were so happy, like, I guess in terms of maybe in the States, it would be a democratic kind of here's like, liberal NDP, a sort of we celebrate when and it's reason to celebrate, obviously, like, we get a trans MP person, you know, things like this are non binary. In the US, you haven't now a non binary lawmaker, the first one, right? And these things are great. But I think people when they see this, like this non binary non binary lawmaker in the US, is also a Muslim. Right. And some media reporting is not mentioned, the Muslim or some media reportings only mentioned the Muslim but don't mention the non binary. To that, that's a kudos of the ones that do mentioned both because I think it's really important because it does tackle isms conception that they're not compatible for, for my communities, who gets be sued, and the other genders like auto Winnie McQueen, rye, Taylor Alliance alibi. We've been practicing Islam as part of our conceptualization of gender for centuries now. And nothing is a utopian you know, nothing is utopian in the world. So every community has a lot of kinks to work out. But there is a definitely a place for gender plurality right alongside Islam. And I think that's one conception but they don't, they don't gel together, right. And also texts, religious texts like the Quran. I don't know too much about the Bible or Torah. But at least with the Quran, there is quite a bit of space for interpretation and a lot of interpretation in the past, within Muslim communities, like predominantly have been very patriarchal. And but now a lot of people like in the US organization, Muslims for progressive, while they identify as progressive Muslims, but it could be muslims for progressive voices, something like that. The that can advocate for a more open interpretation, right. So so people can, like, have ease about being a Muslim and being non binary, for example. And I think that's really beautiful, and, and really great direction and the kind of conversation that wouldn't have happened in the past 10 years. So it's, it's a recent development that people are tackling this and I know, RF is trying to do that as well and make space for that. And yeah, so I, I think that's one conception misconception that they don't go together. And or that religion is oppressive to gender diversity went from me, at least from an academic standpoint. And as a, like a former refugee and stateless person, it is a state apparatus, which is the obstruction and not their religion. Right.
Unknown:
27:00
So, yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
27:04
You described earlier on this conversation, the difference in pronouns in English versus other languages, do you want to just talk about that briefly about how pronouns work for yourself when you're operating in different worlds or in different languages?
Hazim Ismail:
27:23
Well, so I speak Bahasa and bigass, in addition to English, and these two languages are asked for an Asian languages and most if not all, as an Asian languages are genderless. So the way pronoun usage spans across the languages of the world, they trickle down to three basic forms for pronouns, one is grammatical gender, so English would be a grammatical gender language, so you do have he have she, but they don't need to correspond to the verb, right? In a quote unquote, proper way, French, French and Spanish, they're what linguists call quote, unquote, I don't like this term, but it's, they're called, they call it natural gender. So the pronoun has to correspond with the the verb, right? So you have masculine and feminine, there's a whole history around how masculine feminine came about that isn't super tied to conceptualizations of gender, but just how, where we are today with those languages. And then you have gender lists, which do not have, so I use dia, to refer to anybody is not a he's not a she is just, you know, a person, and it could also be a non human person, or like a non human being, that you're referring to. And most, over half of the world languages are genderless. Right? So it really speaks to, to kind of, I don't know, like, what is the dominant, you know, like, like forum for pronouns around the world is actually genderless that that is a dominant, but we are bound to binaries in a way and but that's not to say that if you're using a language or your language is is, is very binary, like if it was French, or Spanish, or hindi, hindi is technically a natural gender language, it doesn't mean that you can't assert your non gender conforming identities, he draw communities in India, have long been able to navigate the like the binary ness of Hindi so that they are validating themselves, right. That could be tweaks that could be alterations here and there, whatever it is, in terms of syntax, so that you actually have a language that works for you instead of you working to fit into a binary So that's what I mean by pronouns. Like there's, there's some when I use, like they them, I'm also thinking like, Well, sometimes they don't feels like an other, like a cronquist third gender, just kind of want to be gender lis. So like, do in in Bahasa that I use, it just means like, you know, this is a scented being you know. And that's, that's nice it's it's I'm not I don't want to romanticize it but it, it feels very, very nice to have that space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
30:35
you know? Hmm. Well, and it's, it's interesting to hear people who come at like they them pronouns in a Western context from this feeling like, Oh, this is how our language is. And that's the kind of destiny so therefore, it cannot be changed. And, and like even said the way that French pronouns like the natural it there I think it sounds like sometimes people are wedded to this feeling like language is destiny, and it shows who we are. But I mean, we just know language changes language is constantly evolving, it is this thing that we've created to speak to one another. And it, of course, is like, you know, the language I'm speaking today is because there was a Norman Conquest, and then it married, you know, two different dude, a very different set of languages. And so I think hearing hearing you describe this, in my mind just recalls the way that some people think of it as this very static, very naturalized thing that almost emerged out of nowhere to predict how we can talk to one another versus this thing that is always evolving and can always be more expensive. And there's always I think there's what excites me too, is that there are always more words, like we're always making up new words. And there's no, there's no limit there. And so that, yeah, but that's really cool. Thanks for
Hazim Ismail:
32:05
thanks for talking about pronouns and stuff. You said it really nicely. And I very, like I was kind of granting on, but I think you said it really perfectly. Like language is not static, right? And if statically you have room to assert yourself, if it's not working for you. And if enough people do that, then you have a language change. Right. I it's exciting. It's nice that like, maybe 10 years ago, they them would not have been as normalized it as it is today. Right? Well, so no, it's it's good. Like, I think, earlier this year, Manitoba, now you can have them on your Manitoba IDs and your driver's license. And that's thanks to rizoma who is black and MP or MLA for unionization, so really, really great person, and used to be part of that group that would function out of sunshine house to provide supports for newcomers, for queer asylum seekers?
Unknown:
33:19
To find out Finally,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
33:21
I really like this final question, just because it, I think, can put into people's mind again, this opening the space of possibility, which is what does decolonizing gender mean to you?
Hazim Ismail:
33:35
It's a is a big question. It's, it's decolonization is used so much, right? But I think because what is the what the the opposite of decolonization? Is colonization, colonizing So, and colonization imposed binaries and to post certain dominant understandings of gender and sexuality? So for me, it's, it's one, the first step is undoing that as much as you can, you'll never be able to undo everything. But I'm doing as much as you can, and then to having the autonomy to decide what to do then. Right. Where to move forward. So when I say I do, I mean, undo the damage, right? I don't mean like, okay, now that the West has introduced non binary knows, oh, no, you can't be non binary anymore, because we're decolonizing. No, it means undoing the damage of like, Oh, no, I grew up being forced to either be a man or a woman or being forced to be a man or being forced to be a woman. And now Okay, that's doing try to work on doing the damage that that has done. But then the next step is having the space to decide what to do after and having the supports not to space the supports to go go in a direction that you need to do for healing, I think it was Malcolm X, who's famously quoted, I'm gonna fumble the quote a bit, but the he mentioned about reparations for black women in, in the North American context that, like, reparations isn't just pulling the knife out of the back. But it's also like being a part of the healing of the wound, right? And so I think decolonization is that entire process from the pulling out of the knife, which means undoing the damage like that could be that. But then being part of the healing and making space, how do you want to heal? Which direction do you want to heal? And that's for me, the conversation, because when you're able to dissenter yourself, at least on the part of like a settler person or colonizer whatever, somebody in a dominant power position, is to just dissenter and provide support and for people who are on the receiving end for conservation, to, to have to assert yourself and to have that autonomy. And you get to you get to decide for yourself and for your communities, what's needed to move forward, right, and a healthy way. So if that means, and it often does mean, taking concepts that are associated as being Western and what might be with your own traditions, together, that's perfectly fine. As long as that's you being, you know, you write you have a space to be used. So if you, a lot of people are trans into spirit, truck trans and be super non binary and be su or trans and Hydra, you know, this is perfectly fine. They're not incompatible. So, this is all about the cons, I think decolonization is just about having a space, taking space, making space, space, space, space.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:07
Space, space space.
Unknown:
37:09
Hmm.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:09
And for those folks, such as myself, for settlers who are like, like you said, decentering, kind of, it's like, an I'm trying to think of like a metaphor here. But when there is space for other people, that means taking a step back decentering oneself so that I mean, those two things have to go hand in hand for for others to to make space into. Yeah, like you said, For that, for that healing to take place.
Unknown:
37:39
Mm
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
37:41
hmm. Yeah. Well, I really, I really think you have been this has been such a lovely conversation. I've really learned a lot. I have really enjoyed talking to you about all of this. I want there to be so many more podcasts. And I really, really appreciate your time today.
Hazim Ismail:
37:59
Thank you for taking time and making space for this tiny
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:07
space safe space.
Hazim Ismail:
38:09
That's just and we should just end by tending space space space,
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:14
shall we? We can, we can absolutely do that. That can be our our final offering. All right. space, space, space, space, space, space, space, space. Thanks. And we did our algorithms, which I feel is fun.
Unknown:
38:30
Yeah.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:31
Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you. I hope you have a good rest of your
Unknown:
38:37
day. Thank you, as well.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
38:46
Thank you so much for joining and thank you to his team who has played such a big role in this week, as he will be joining us at 11 per panel with their fellow researchers to showcase some of the most exciting most rich resources for the database. Later this afternoon, we will have the book club with Reverend Dr. Charles funtion. And then this evening at 730. We will gather for holding the light with Reverend Dr. Brent Hawkes. Another exciting day ahead. Thank you so much for joining me
